the independants declaration delivered in to the assembly. by thomas goodwin, william greenhill, william bridge, philip nie, sydrach simpson, and william carter. declaring their grounds and full resolutions concerning church-government. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a87251 of text r201707 in the english short title catalog (thomason e399_1). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 12 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a87251 wing i148 thomason e399_1 estc r201707 99862207 99862207 114358 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a87251) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 114358) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 63:e399[1]) the independants declaration delivered in to the assembly. by thomas goodwin, william greenhill, william bridge, philip nie, sydrach simpson, and william carter. declaring their grounds and full resolutions concerning church-government. goodwin, thomas, 1600-1680. greenhill, william, 1591-1671. bridge, william, 1600?-1670. nye, philip, 1596?-1672. simpson, sidrach, 1600?-1655. carter, w. (william) [2], 6 p. printed for b.t., london, : in the yeer. 1647. annotation on thomason copy: "july 17". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church polity -early works to 1800. independent churches -england -early works to 1800. dissenters, religious -england -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. a87251 r201707 (thomason e399_1). civilwar no the independants declaration delivered in to the assembly.: by thomas goodwin, william greenhill, william bridge, philip nie, sydrach simps goodwin, thomas 1647 2066 2 0 0 0 0 0 10 c the rate of 10 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-09 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-10 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2007-10 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the independants declaration delivered in to the assembly . by thomas goodwin , william greenhill , william bridge , philip nie , sydrach simpson , and william carter . declaring their grounds and full resolutions concerning church-government . london , printed for b. t. in the yeer . 1647. a copy of the independants declaration to the assembly of divines . to make known what ever we hold , concerning church-government , as wee have had publique testimony in this assembly , so we have manifold instances and evidences of it ; witnesse that constant , free , and open expressing our selves upon all occasions , and in all questions propounded to the debate , with offers to give an open account at any time , in what ever should be asked us by any brother . our proffering divers times to bring in propositions , stated to our sense for the dispute , and when we were made a committee to that purpose , in the point of ordination , and did bring our iudgements concerning it for a dispute , it was laid aside . and at another time , when we our selves brought in papers , giving the state of the question , about that extraordinary way of ordination , which were read , and returned back unto us , it being publiquely professed that that was not an allowed way and course of this assembly , for any of the brethren to bring in papers , unlesse they were made a committee by the assembly it selfe . and so we were prevented of doing the like for time to come . likewise our frequent complainings of the stating of questions , so that we could not fully argue for our iudgements , wee being bound up to the questions as stated by you . the usuall answer to our complaints herein being , that the assembly sate not to argue the opinions of a few men , but if wee had any thing to say to the assertion brought in , we might . as also our earnest contending to have some questions ( which you all know are the greatest and most fundamentall points ) fairly disputed and debated , is a sufficient testimony of this our willingnesse . as in the entrance into the dispute of government , the first day , we pressed the handling of this , that there is a platform of government for the churches , under the gospel , laid down in the scripture , and desired to have discussed , what are the sure and certain wayes , whereby wee may judge what of government is held forth iure divino therein , which should have been fundamentall to all the disputes that were to follow : and this was professedly laid aside by you , which therefore in none of the subsequent debates , we could renew , and thus arguments were cut off , it being that great and necessary medium , by which the patticulars should be confirmed , and in a manner the whole controversie decided ; the greatest difference that were likely to grow betwixt us , being this , that the forms of government , you pretend to , and we deny , are asserted to be iure divino . in like manner , that other next great question , about the intire power in congregations , that have a sufficient presbytery for all censures , which as it is in order the first that presents it selfe for discussion ( as was urged ) so also it is one of the greatest points in difference betwixt us & you : yet the debate of this was not only denyed the first place in the dispute , but was to this day declined by you ; although to have it argued was contended for by us ▪ and not by us only , but by many of those , that are for a subordinate government thereof to synods . and though earnest desires and motions for it were renewed and inculcated , yet were they as often laid aside . yea and this , although it was once expresly commended by the grand committee of the hon. members of both houses , joyned with twelve divines of the assembly , to be next disputed , as the best means , both of expedition , and of ending the controversie . and over and above all this , to argue this our willingnesse to dispute our way , in the aforesaid honourable committeee appointed by an order of the honourable house of commons , to find out wayes , of accommodating different iudgements in the assembly , the sub-committee of divines , consisting of two of us , and foure others , appointed by that honourable committee to prepare wayes and propositions of accommodation , brought in the main and most of what practically we desired , and we therein added , that if such a liberty shall seem in the wisdome of this honorable committee , to be so prejudicical to the peace of the church as not to be permitted , we humbly desire , the doctrinall principles wherein we differ about church-government , may be taken into serious consideration , and some other way of accommodation in practise thought upon , as shall seem fit to this honourable committee : and this was presented to that honorable committee and those twelve of the assembly , to be transmitted , whether to the honorable houses , or the assembly as they should think meet . after this , when upon occasion of something brought in by one brother , and entertained , we took hold of that example , and one of us , with consent of the rest , brought in 7 propositions , which contained matter of difference betwixt us , professing , that if this reverend assembly would debate them , or any one of them , we would bring in more , untill we had brought in all the frame , and the assembly themselves should pick and chuse what they would debate , & what not . but these propositions were rejected with a refusall to debate any one of them . and after all this , though the main parts of a presbyteriall government ▪ had been then voted by the assembly , and sent up to the honorable houses ( as , namely , that about ordination , and the presbyteriall government over many congregations , as also concerning the subordination of nationall , provinciall and classicall assemblies ) and there was not much remaining about church-government , to be concluded in this assembly : yet this reverend assembly requiring , ( by occasion of a book published , that reflected on these proceedings , that we had no hand in nor knowledge of ) a whole frame of government , with the grounds and reasons thereof , to be brought in by us , and voted us hereto to be a committee , we yeilded our selves to be a committee to bring in part by part , in like manner as the presbyteriall government was brought into the assembly , and disputed : but that was not accepted . and then it being said , that there was something in church-government , remaining undiscussed , and unresolved ; and it being further alledged that the assembly had not sent up all that which they had concluded , but meant to present an entire frame and body to the honourable houses : and that we might take away all occasions of any such jealousies that we were unwilling to discover what we held ( which were commonly in mens mouths abroad ) we yeilded to be a committee , to bring in the whole to this assembly , though upon all the fore-mentioned disadvantages , & were purposed & resolved amongst our selves so to do , and that in as convenient a time as a work of such a compasse could , ( in such a manner as was proposed by you ) be dispatched by us . and as in the debate about making us a committee , the assembly would not declare ( though pressed by us ) what they would do with that modell , and those reasons we should bring in ; so the voting of what yet remained in church-government , was hastened by you . and when not long after , upon occasion of the debate of one particular point , in which we differed from this assembly , we moved it might be deferred , because we should present our judgements and reasons about it , with the rest , ( for therein lay that which we accounted the favour of being made a committee by you ) it was publiquely answered , that therefore the assembly should the rather go on to the concluding of it , because we intended to bring it in ; and before we could dispatch that body we intended , so as to report it unto you according to your order ; ( the collection of the materials whereof , spent us two or three months , and we could not obtain the liberty to bring in any thing but the whole ) this assembly had presented to the honourable houses , as well what had been sent up by peeces afore , as what was since concluded , in one intire frame . by all which we perceived , that that which was the main end and use of presenting such a modell to this assembly , would be frustrated . and furthermore , we having given in ( as this assembly knows ) but two heads of dissenting reasons : the one against the presbyteriall government over many congregations : the other against the subordination of synods . by the successe of the latter we see , that this assembly can assume the liberty ( if it so please ) to reserve those we shall now present , unanswered , as they have done those our dissenting reasons against subordination of synods , although it contain a great and main part of that wherein we differ , as also is of all other , the greatest moment , both to this church and state , and hath been given in to this assembly ten months since , and their votes concerning these subordinations , as long since presented to the honourable houses , but have not been answered by any reply brought into this assembly , and so not ready to have been sent up to the hon. houses . and if these we might now bring in , should be undertaken to be answered by this assembly , yet we still retain the sense of so much remedilesse prejudice , by being bound from replying again , as doth make us justly wary : we may for ever lie under whatever mis-interpretations may happen , ( suppose but through mistake of yours , or imperfection of our expression ) without clearing our meaning , and wee may be bound up from further urging or driving home that wherein the strength of any argumenr lies , if the dint thereof should be avoided by some specious diversion . and although our former reasons given in after dispute to both the honourable houses , according to their order , were therefore not our own , but to be disposed of according to their appointment ; yet what we should now give in , we conceive to be in our own power . upon these considerations we think that this assembly , hath no cause now to require a report of us , nor will that our report be of any use , seeing that reports are for debates , and debates are for results to be sent up to the honorable houses , who have already voted another forme of government then what we shall present . however it may be of more use some other way , which by this course may be prevented , and therefore we are resolved to wait for some further opportunity to improve what we have prepared . finis . to his reverend and much respected good friend, mr. john goodwin: be these i pray presented. vicars, john, 1579 or 80-1652. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a95901 of text r212477 in the english short title catalog (thomason e259_3). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 24 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a95901 wing v331 thomason e259_3 estc r212477 99871085 99871085 123483 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a95901) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 123483) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 44:e259[3]) to his reverend and much respected good friend, mr. john goodwin: be these i pray presented. vicars, john, 1579 or 80-1652. taylor, daniel, ca. 1614-1655. 8 p. s.n., [london : 1645] signed on page 4: iohn vicars. caption title. imprint from wing. includes: taylor, daniel. to his much respected friend mr. iohn vicars [signed on page 8: d.t.]. annotation on thomason copy: on page 1: "feb: 11th 1644"; on page 8: "dan: taylor". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng goodwin, john, 1594?-1665. -innocency and truth triumphing together. puritans -controversial literature -early works to 1800. independent churches -england -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. a95901 r212477 (thomason e259_3). civilwar no to his reverend and much respected good friend, mr. john goodwin:: be these i pray presented. vicars, john 1645 4305 6 0 0 0 0 0 14 c the rate of 14 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-10 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2007-10 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion to his reverend and much respected good friend , mr. john goodwjn : be these i pray presented . reverend sir , having lately received from you , by the hands of my loving neighbour and friend , mrs. ducker , a both undeserved and unexpected favour , one of your last books , intituled , innocencie and truth triumphing together ; i acknowledge it a just engagement of obliged gratitude , and therefore , accordingly , i do here return you deserved and most humble thanks for the same , by the same friendly hand . and because ( worthy sir ) i conceived and considered with my self , that you sent it by way of love and desire to give me ( who am , as i acknowledge , a poor and unworthy presbyterian ) satisfaction , if it might be , touching your independent church-way : i having now perused it all over , even à capite ad calcem ( and i hope with that pietie and impartialitie , as my god hath enabled me , which becomes a christian and fellow servant to the same lord jesus christ with you ) i therefore hope you will , not so much pardon ( which i pray not ) as accept ( which i heartily desire ) with christian candor , mine ingenuitie and plain dealing with you , in now giving you an account , briefly , as i thought it most fit , of what light or content and satisfaction i have received from it . truly sir , i having read your epistle to the reader , found therein very full and fair promise of your ingenuous aym and intention in the subsequent discourse , viz. that you projected four things therein , brevitie , perspicuitie , moderation , and satisfaction . but having , i say , perused your book , truly sir , ( if i am not mistaken , as i believe i am not ) you have come extream short of your promised project , in every of the four branches thereof . for first , if i found you short , i am sure i found you sharp and tart ; for perspicuitie , i assure you i found much cloudie obscuritie ; veri similitudinem multam , non ipsam veritatem ; satisfaction , therefore none at all . but especially , in that of projected moderation , and promised temperature in writing , ( the great defect , and foul fault , so cried out upon by independents against all presbyterian writers or speakers ) in stead of moderation i found abundance of bitternesse , and unsavourie jerkes and jeeres ( the light issues me thought , rather of a youthfull green-head , then the solid expressions of such a grave heart ) sprinkled , almost , over all your whole discourse ; which i must confesse much troubled and affected me with wonder to meet with , after such a seeming promise of moderation : some few of very many whereof ( because i knew , dolosus versatur in generalibus ) j have here particularized with their pages where they are evidently and easily to be seen . as first ( to omit your via sanguinea , with all its most bitter and biting , yea sorely wounding expositions of that term , in your theomachia , &c. ) pag. 13. you compare mr. prynn in his reply , to the two false witnesses , who falsly accused our blessed saviour . and in the same page you tell the reader , here mr. prynn vapours in his reply ; immediatly after , in the same page how notably do you jeer and scoffe him about three tabernacles ? and with what an elated spirit do you answer him , page 16. line 4. together with a down-right jeer about a nationall church , some 12 lines after ? you also grossely taxe him with errors , page 17. sect. 21. and page 18. and 19. you frequently jeer him , and amongst those jeers you tell him , that acts 15. is onely mr. prynns gospell ; what a bitter and unchristian censure lay you upon him , and all presbyterians , page 24. sect. 26. towards the end of it ? and o how you jeer him with his quotations , page 37. towards the bottome ; as also page 49. and page 51. you slander him with want of reason and truth too ; and page 52. you tell him , his pen spits black reproches in the face of independents . you also accuse him page 65. of much untruth ; and the same also again most fouly , page 84. together with a notable jeer , exalting your selfe , and vilifying mr. prynn , which i have noted at large in your book , page 85. together with very many other such like expressions , too tedious to be here recited ; and yet ( strange to consider ) you conclude them all ( with the conclusion of your book ) page 99. in a hortatorie way to mr. prynn in these words : that he would put lesse vineger and gall into his inke and more wooll and cotten . and in the apostles words , ephes. 4. 31. that all bitternesse and evill speaking be put away , as becomes brethren . and now any impartiall person may judge , whether you your self have followed this brotherly exhortation ; nay , whether contrariwise , you have not with unbrotherly aspersions , indeavored to besmear the face of that precious gentleman , most worthy ever to be honoured both by you all and us all ? truly sir , you independent gentlemen have dealt with this most worthy servant of the lord , just as the people of lystra did with the apostle paul , whom at first they so honoured and admired , as that they were ready to deifie him and make him a god ; but shortly after , they furiously indeavoured to stone him to death : so ye , at the first , in the time of mr. prynns first most elaborate and learned divine writings , yea and for his most glorious and saint-like sufferiugs ; o then , how ye all ( with us ) most highly ( and that most justly too ) honoured him , and brought him home from bauishment , as it were in the triumphing chariot of your love and praises ! but now , since he hath piously and faithfully written against your independent way , and onely for this , o how have you and almost all of your way , indeavoured as much as in you is , to stone to death his illustrious reputation , by most unworthy and unchristian reviling and vilipending of him , both in words and writings ! even him i say , who for his pietie , humilitie , incomparable constancie , fortitude and magnanimitie in suffering for gospell truths , was not inferiour to any of his most faithfull fellow-sufferers yea , whose soundnesse and sinceritie , whose profound learning and indefatigable labours in writing upon deepest points of divinity and controverted gospel truths ( witnesse his perpetuity of the estate of a regenerate man ; his anti-arminianisme , vnbisboping of timothy and titus , his histri-mastix ; and many other his later , most learned , orthodox and precious peeces ) have made his never-dying name and fame most worthily renowned both in england and other parts of the world , beyond the seas . and yet this noble gentleman to be thus , i say , besmeared and bespattred with your unjust accusations , onely i say again , for writing the truth against independent novelties ; o! it is most sad and bad to consider . truly sir , you must here give me leave to be yet more plain with you , i professe in the sinceritie of my soul , that i do most groundedly beleeve , that ( had mr. prynn been such a non-sense , consciencelesse , irrationall , false and frivolous writer , as you and others of your way only have strugled ( but all in vain ) to make and demonstrate him by your lavish tongues and pens ) that yet , i say certainly , mr. iohn goodwin , was the most unfit man of all i know in london , to lay those undeserved criminations to mr. prynns charge . for , you know good sir , that qui in alterum paratus est dicere , ipsum vitio carere opertet . for you therefore , reverend sir , to take upon you to tax mr. pryn of errours , untruths , and such like , as you have done , how deeply you your self , ( before ever this most unhappy and unhol● difference of independency with presbitery was dreamed of ) have been ceusured both of socinianisme ; ( and how justly too others have most learnedly in publike declared ) and more lately also how you have been discovered to hold a most dangerous , yea a most damnable opinion ( as a learned independent brother of yours termed it in my hearing , and who then said , he would justifie it against you ) touching justifying faith by christ . and now also , how fiercely you are faln on this unhappily disturbant new way of independencie . i beseech you therefore , reverend sir , seriously to consider these things , to muster up your saddest thoughts , and to see into what a labyrinth you are strangely and strongly intricated . sir , i do not , i cannot denie , but ingenuously confesse that god hath given you much learning and eminent parts , but truly sir , if i be not , mistaken , i greatly fear your independent proselites do too much magnifie , if not ( almost ) deifie you for them , and as it was with pythagoras his shollars , an ipse dixit is enough , i , feare for many , if not most of your disciples , jurare in verba magistri ; whereby i pray god , your great parts and gifts bee not ( thus ) a great snare to your soul , which i much feare , if not timely and truely seen into and prevented by cordiall self-deniall , and holy humilitie in your selfe , being more kindely affectioned with brotherly love , and in honour preferring others before your self ▪ rom. 12. 10. and thus , reverend sir , i have made humbly bold , by your own occasion , lovingly and , i hope , fairly and friendly as a true christian brother ought , ( levit. 19. 17 ) liberare animam meam , and thus to manifest my reciprocall love and gratitude unto you , praying our good god it may be accepted with the like right handed christian candor , and simplicitie of heart with which it is sent and intended , i humbly take my leave and rest , sir , yours in our great lord and master christ jesus , to be commanded . iohn vicars . jan. this 18. 1644. imprimatur . ja. cranford . jan. 24. 1644. an answer thereunto . to his much respected friend mr. iohn vicars , these be delivered . ( the author of this following letter , did not intend it for the presse , but sent it to mr. vicars in a private way : but mr. vicars his letter comming forth in print , and divers copies thereof being disperst into severall hands by himself , it was thought fit that this letter should be published also . ) sir , whether it was my good or hard happe to meet with your letter directed and sent to mr. iohn goodwin , i cannot easily determine : for though all manner of knowledge , either of persons or things , be in some kinde or other beneficiall ; it being an undoubted maxime , that verum & bonum convertuntur : yet some knowledge may be so circumstantiated , that it may prove more burdensome and offensive to the party knowing , then commodious . i confesse from the reading of your lines i have gained thus much , to say i know you : but this gain hath occasioned such a considerable losse in the things of my joy , that i doe even wish for my former ignorance , and could be well contented , to have met with no other description of your frame and temper , then what the promise of your countenance , and the report of your friends have made of you : indeed it cannot but deduct somewhat from the comfort of a reasonable man , to see one , whom ( one would thinke ) gray haires should have taught the language of sobernesse , shooting with his tongue at rovers , and speaking sharpe and devouring words against persons and things , which hee knowes not . sorry i am , that mr. vicars should break the fair face of his reputation upon this stone , against which this besotted world is dashing it selfe in peeces from day to day . i have some hope that though your zeale to mr. prinns glory , did cast you into such an extasie of passion , that you scarce knew what you writ ; yet by this time you have pretty well recovered your selfe again : and lest the sense of your miscarriage should too much oppresse you , i give you to know that you are falne into soft and tender hands , and have discovered your nakednesse to such onely , who rather pittie , then deride it . for my part , i love not to disport my selfe at the weaknesse of any man , or to turne his folly into laughter ; for what were this , but to reflect dishonour upon the same nature , wherein he partakes with my selfe . rather , i could mourn over the vanities of your pen , and weep to see you so farre intoxicated , as to call the most injurious dealing one shall lightly meet with , by the name of candor and ingenuitie . the truth is , you have so fouly berayed your paper with bold and untrue assertions , imputations , exprobations , and such like excrements , that i thought even for modestie sake to have drawne over them the veile of silence , and to have contested with that spirit that breathes in them no further , then by speaking to it in a secret wish , the lord rebuke thee . but i considered with my selfe , that perhaps you might communicate in the nature of such persons who ( as solomon saith , prov. 26. 5. ) are apt ( being unanswered ) to be wise in their own conceits : and if i shall hereby demolish or at least weaken this conceit of yours , i presume i shall do you herein a very charitable and christian peece of service . think not i am become your enemeie , because i tell you the truth : you have injured me no other waies then by trespassing upon your own credit , and by making thereby a sad breach in that holy profession , wherein you stand ingaged with my selfe . what ever your intentions were , i conceive you have done me no more wrong in clapping the title of an independent proselyte upon my back , then pilate did to christ in affixing this superscription over his head , this is the king of the iews . i think this name to be full as honourable , as that of a poore and unworthy presbyterian , wherewith you have pleased to baptize your selfe : and conceive that herein only you have followed your owne , or rather the apostles counsell , in honour to preferre others be●ore your selfe . but had you been minded to suppresse your name , your very dialect had been enough to betray you : me thinkes you write just like such a one as you say you are . did i not hope for better things from the hands of more worthy presbyterians , your unworthy dealing had set me off ten degrees further from your way , then now i stand : but i will not take the advantage of your , or any mans misdemeanor , though more grosse and absurde then yours to render pesbytery odious to the world : to cloath any opinion or practice with the garments of mens personall distempers , thereby to fall upon them and beat them with the more applause , is a method which i as much abhorre , as the gentleman you admire , delights in : and if this property in him were one of those beauty-spots which ravished you into a passionate adoration of him , you need not fear , that ever i should become your corrivall : and yet i love and honour mr. prynn for what ever you can finde lovely and honourable in him : i cannot denie but that in some of his workes , he hath acquitted himselfe upon commendable termes ; but to say that in all things , he writes after the rate of a god , when in many things he falls beneath the line of a man , is to make him and my selfe obnoxious to the wrath of god , and the scorne of man . i acknowledge that for a time he ran well , but who hindred him ? questionlesse he who is ever and anon hindring the saints in the race of holinesse . the prince of darkenesse owed him a fall for his sharpe contesting with his prime agents , and now hee hath payed his debt ; but if mr. prynn will bee ruled by the advice of his best friends , hee may rise again to his greater glory , and notwithstanding his fall , triumph over the envy and malice of the devill . concerning mr. iohn goodwin , ( over whom you shake the rod of your reproofe , as if he were one of your schollers ) i could speak as high and excellent encomiums , as you have spoken of your preci●us gentleman ; i could compare him even with mr. prynn himselfe : but such a comparison as this , would bee to mee most odious . i could tell you what hee hath done , what hee hath writ , how deeply hee hath suffered from unreasonable men ; yea , i could give you such a lively and bright description of him , as would dazle your eyes to look upon , and make you blush for shame to have grapled with such a person as he is , upon such rude and unmannerly termes as you have done . for you , who are but a teacher of boyes , so haughtily to correct a great master in israel , is such an absurdity , as cannot but rend a more patient soule then mine , into disdaine and griefe . t is a wonder to me , that , whereas at the beginning of your letter , you confesse your selfe to bee but a poore and unworthy presbyterian , you should so far forget your selfe before you come halfe way , as to take upon you , like the dr. of the chaire ; and to censure the best of men and wayes with as much confidence , as if your pen had dropt the votes of a generall assembly with its inke . had a poore and unworthy independent done the like , you would have cast this boldnesse into a basiliske , and used it to batter down the way of his profession , and to lay the glory of it even with the ground ▪ but i well perceive , though you have scap't the snare of gifts and parts ( in which you fear mr. goodwin is taken ) yet you are falne into the pit , not of divine , but naturall simplicity ; and have verified the old proverb , a rash mans bolt is soone shot . as for that book of mr. goodwins , called innocencie and truth triumphing together , though you are pleased to triumph over both , and to cast it out as an arch-rebel to reason and morality , yet ( i must tell you ) it hath found joyfull and bountifull entertainement in the judgements of sober and intelligent men : but certainly , it was the unhappinesse of this treatise to fall into your hands , when you stood upon the mount of mr. prins honour , and when the vision of his transfiguration wrought so strongly in you , that you did not wot , what you spake , no , nor what you did neither , for you laid about you with such regardlesse fury that you broke the head of your friend priscian , * of whose safety men of your profession , should be most tender . i thought to have argued the case with you , whether your exceptions against this treatise and its author , will hold in the court of reason and equity : but perhaps you are not so well skilled in the rules of this court ; and i am loath to take the advantage of you . i shall only propound a few querees , peradventure the struglings of your thoughts to give them satisfaction , may dissolve the inchantment that is now upon you . what persons did ever most learnedly declare mr. goodwin to be justly censured for socinianisme ? when , or in what publique place did they make this declaration ? how call you that brother of his , who will justifie against him the charge of holding a most damnable opinion about justifying faith ? i suppose you must strain , not so much your memory as your invention , in shaping your answer : you had done well to remember , that though fooles ( as solomon speaks ) beleeve every thing ; yet wise men will question such assertions as these : alas ( sir ) the best course you can run to gaine credit with the prudent , is to cut your allegations and your proofes , just of one and the same length : to cloath large and broad sayings with curtaild arguments , reflects as much shame upon such sayings , and him that speakes them , as hanun did upon the servants of david● in cutting off their garments to their buttocks . you cannot but know , how that many grave , sober , godly , and learned men have falne into that way you call independencie . now , your onely method , to have brought over these to your partie , and to have filled their mouthes with the cry of a confederacy against this way , had bin this ; not barely to have affirmed it to be a novell and disturbant way ( as you have done ) but to have poysed the lightnesse of your affirmation , with the weight and substance of a demonstration . i assure you ( sir ) ( what ever you may thinke ) i approve of this way no further then i see the footsteps of those sweet sisters , truth and peace printed in it : i have narrowly view'd it , and i can finde no drops of blood , no strewings of the liberties , estates , names , comforts of the saints scattered in it , and yet some travellers affirme , they have seen such things as these in that way , which the ignorance of thousands lust after . but to conclude , i beseech you ( sir ) bee more watchfull over the extravagancies of your tongue and pen for the future : since you are ( in part ) acquainted with their infirmities , let it be your wisdome to seek their cure . i reverence you for age , piety , and some services you have done to the publique ; and i should rejoyce to see such an ancient standard in the garden of god as you are , carrying your hoary head with honour to the grave : which that you may doe , as i have ( you see ) in part indeavoured , so i shall further prosecute with my prayers to him , who is able to keep you to the end : in whom ( though i am unknown to you ) yet with all sincerity i professe my selfe , sir , a cordiall well-wisher to your peace and credite : d. t. january 27. 1644. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a95901e-1100 * the words in the written coppy of his letter , are these , and thus spell'd , qui in alterum paratus est dicere , ipsum vicio careat oportet , as may appeare from the originall in mr. goodwins custody . but it seemes the corrector being the better grammarian transform'd them into good latine in the printed copie . ] some false principles and errors discovered and refuted in a short answer to a catechism book, which is said to contain the principles of religion, put forth by a namelesse authour, but is supposed to be the work of one samuel eaton ... but upon true examination he is found to be teaching the traditions of men for the commandments of christ ... / by e.b. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a30541 of text r36303 in the english short title catalog (wing b6023a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 35 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 8 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a30541 wing b6023a estc r36303 15642987 ocm 15642987 104276 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30541) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 104276) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1182:4) some false principles and errors discovered and refuted in a short answer to a catechism book, which is said to contain the principles of religion, put forth by a namelesse authour, but is supposed to be the work of one samuel eaton ... but upon true examination he is found to be teaching the traditions of men for the commandments of christ ... / by e.b. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. 15 p. printed for thomas simmons ..., london : 1659. reproduction of original in the huntington library. eng eaton, samuel, 1596?-1665. congregationalism -controversial literature. society of friends -doctrines. a30541 r36303 (wing b6023a). civilwar no some false principles and errors discovered and refuted: in a short answer to a catechism book, which is said to contain, the principles of burrough, edward 1659 7145 11 0 0 0 0 0 15 c the rate of 15 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-01 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-02 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-02 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion some false principles and errors discovered and refuted : in a short answer to a catechism book , which is said to contain , the principles of religion , put forth by a namelesse authour ; but is supposed to be the work of one samuel eaton , a professed minister of the gospel , among the sect of the independants , in cheshire . but upon true examination he is found to be teaching the traditions of men for the commandements of christ ; and his principles are proved to be not according , but contrary to the spirit of god and the scriptures . by e. b. london , printed for thomas simmons , at the bull and mouth near aldersgate , 1659. to the reader . the reason and cause of this being sent abroad is for the better information of all , but more particularly for the good of that assembly , to whom samuel eaton is minister and pastor , that they may know the truth from errour , and the way of righteousnesse from all false wayes , and may turn from idol-shepherds that destroyes the vineyard , and treads it down , and may come to christ , and receive him who is the chief shepherd , to feed his flock with the bread of eternal life . and the reason why these false principles are charged upon samuel eaton is this , it being doubtful to some who was the authour of that catechism , wherein these principles and doctrines was held forth : john gredley and anne sheeld by name was with the said samuel eaton , and asked him if he owned that book ( the catechism ) and he said he would maintain all in it ; that was his answer . the wayes of the lord are equall and just , but the wayes of the sons of adam are altogether corrupted , and different and contrary to the wayes of salvation ; and the wisedome that is of this world is foolishness with god , and its end is destruction to it self , and to all that walk therein ; and what is man , that he shall prescribe a way to his maker ? and who is it , that will be more wise then god , to set him a way how he must teach his people ? therefore in vaine have men laboured , and have reaped to themselves nothing but wind and confusion ; and in vaine have they sowen , for others to reap after them , whose fruit hath been emptiness , and not filled the hand of the gatherer ; and in particular this book with which i am now dealing , is the fruit of an empty tree , which cannot satisfie the hungry soul , nor comfort the weary seeker ; for the satisfaction and comfort of the seeking hungry soul dependeth only upon the lord , and upon the bread of life that commeth down from god ; and the soul that eats thereof is satisfied and comforted for ever , and hungers no more , nor thirsts any longer ; but the fountaine is in him , and the well springs up unto eternall life , and he goes no more forth : and if so be that all herein were true and sound doctrine , and were learned , so as to express it over againe in words this might be , and yet the soul still remaining in anguish , and under sin and death , though increased in the knowledg that is from below , and yet in a farther ignorance of god ; for the wisdom of this world knows not god , neither can it teach , nor receive the knowledg of the things that pertaines unto life eternall , but to the simple and to fools doth the lord teach and reveal the knowledge of his kingdom , and it is not received from books , nor the teachings and traditions of men , but by the manifestation of the eternall spirit which doth lead into all truth , and reveal the mysteries of salvation . the first thing that i take notice of is this , thou saist , god is a spirit , and he is one in ●eing , and is to be distinguished into three persons , and the father , son , and holy ghost are personall relations ; and if one be a person such are the other , &c. ans. the father , son , and spirit is one , this we believe and know , according to the scriptures ; but as for thy word person , that is carnall and too low a word to denominate god by , who is infinite ; for god and the spirit hath no person , nor cannot truely be distinguished into persons ; for a person hath relation to place , time , and change , and is not in all places at all times at once , and the scriptures knowes no such distinction , for god is is a spirit , and hath no relation to one time , place or alteration more then another , but filleth heaven and earth , and his presence is in all , and over all , who is blessed for ever , and is infinite , and without person , or confined being , and the scripture no where in true translation , doth denominate god , christ and the spirit by persons , and personall beings , nor doth distinguish them into three persons ; for persons are related to carnall , as i have said , and persons is to low , too denominate god and christ and the spirit by : so thy principles are unsound , and not agreeing to the spirit of god , and the scriptures , and therefore not to be beleeved nor received . whereas thou saist , that the one standing rule , according to which god is to be sought , worshipped and served , is the holy scriptures , in which god hath revealed himself in all things which he would have believed and done , &c. ans. it is the spirit of god that gave forth the scriptures , which spirit was and is within the saints that leadeth into all truth , and teacheth to know all things , and that spirit of god only is the standing rule to walk in , and to walk by ; it was the rule to abel , enoch , abraham , and the rest of the holy fathers that lived before any scripture was written , and it was the rule to the prophets , to christ and to the holy apostles , they all followed the spirit and walked in it , and spake and wrought and acted as the spirit of god within them moved them , and led them , it was not the scriptures , but the sprit that gave forth the scriptures that was the standing , unchangable , unerring rule of worshiping serving and obeying the lord god , and that same spirit is the standing rule to us also ; for the apostle commands to walk in the spirit , and that which we are to walk in is our rule , and as many as are the sonns of god are led by the spirit of god , and then the spirit is their rule , and that guides the feet in the way of peace , and in the spirit is god worshipped , for they that worship him must worship him in the spirit and in the truth , & such he seeks to worship him , for it is in the hearts of his people , and within them that god reveales himself by his spirit , for it is the spirit that revealeth the things of god , and none knows the things of god , saving by the spirit of god , and that reveals god , and teacheth to worship god and to serve him , and the scriptures they declare of the rule , and of the revelation of god , and are a declaration of all things which is to be believed and practised by the children of the lord ; so that the scriptures are not the standing rule , neither doth it teach to worship and serve god , but the spirit that gave forth the scriptures , that is the standing rule in and through all generations , and the spirit doth reveal the knowledge of god , and how he is to be worshipped and served . and thou saist , the scriptures are the word of god , given by imediate inspiration of god , and that they are given to all men to be read , and the scriptures are sufficient to make the man of god perfect and throughly furnished , and are able to make wise unto salvation ; and the scriptures and plain and easy to be understood by the simplest , and there is milke in them for babes , and strong meat for persons grown up . ans. christ is the word of god , and his name is called the word of god , and the word of god was in the beginning and shall endure for ever ; and this word is not the scriptures , and the scriptures are not the word , but the scriptures are words of god , given forth from the word which was in their hearts that spake forth the scriptures , which were wro● as the holy men of god were moved by the holy ghost , and given by the inspiration of the spirit of god , and the scriptures are a declaration , and a treatise of the word that was in the beginning , and shall endure for ever ; but the scriptures are not the word , and some of them were given to one sort of men , and some of them to another , and some of them to all ; but as for the threatnings and judgments pronounced , and the reproof of the wicked , that part was not given to the saints nor spoken to them , and so not given to all , and the promises to the children of the lord , and the epistles to the saints , and them that were sanctified , that part was not given & spoken to the world and to the wicked who are unconverted , and so not spoken to all , though all may read them , yet none can understand them but by the same spirit as gave them forth , and who hath not the same spirit to guide them , they cannot understand the scriptures , for it was given forth by the eternall spirit , and the carnall wisdom that is from below , and sensual , cannot understand nor receive the things of the kingdom of god , which is declared of in the scriptures , and so the scriptures are not easy to be understood , but are sealed from the world , neither are the scriptures without faith ( which thou hast left out ) sufficient to make the man of god perfect , but the scriptures through faith , is able to make the man of god perfect , and throughly furnished , this we know and beleeve , and doth set the scriptures in its right place , and give it its right honour and respect ; and as for thee and thy generation who are erred from the spirit of truth , you know not the scriptures nor the power of god , for christ is the bread of life , and the water of life , in him is the milk for babes , and meat for strong men , and not in the scriptures who testifie of christ the life , and in them the pharisees thought to have eternall life , but would not come to christ the end of the scriptures that they might have life , and this is the self same state with yours of this age , who thinks to have the perfecting of salvation and the milk for babes , and the meat for strong men in the scriptures , but will not receive christ who is the perfect salvation and the bread and water of life for all the children of the lord who are born of the spirit ; and so thy doctrines , and thy principles of thy religion , are not sound nor agreeing with the scriptures but contray , and by a contrary spirit , and therefore we cannot be of thy mind , but doth truly judge thee to be unlearned of the father , and knows not the way of salvation , and so thou cannot truly inform nor direct others . and thou saist , men are under a necessity of multiplying transgression ▪ &c. rom. 3. 12. ephes. 4. 17. 2 pet. 2 4. answ. in this thou hast erred , and spoken contrary to sound doctrine ; for there is no necessity laid upon any to commit any sin , much lesse a necessity of multiplying transgression ; if there be a necessity , who layes it on men , and why is that necessity ? transgression is of the wicked one , and who sins is of the devill , and there is no necessity for that upon any account , because sin destroyes the soul , and is a vexation to the lord god , and a cause of everlasting misery , and for to act that , there is no necessity , which hath these effects , and thou hast perverted the scriptures quoted by thee , to prove thy false assertion which i have set down for the reader to peruse , that all may see thou hast perverted them , for they prove no such doctrine , as that there is a necessity of multiplying transgression , which thou hast affirmed and brought the scriptures to prove it , which is first false doctrine uttered by three , and also a perverting of the scriptures to maintain it , and this is too evils , which thou hast committed in one work , and because thou hast done evill , it shall lie at thy dore , and there i will leave it . and thou saist , to be iu●●●fied is not to be really cleansed from all sin , nor is it to partake of real righteousness and holines , but it is to be accounted and reputed iust and holy , and not to have sin reckoned , &c. ans. there is none justified but who are in christ , and are changed , and renewed and born again , and such are cleansed from sin , for he that is born of god sinneth not , and it is he onely that is justified , and not the old man that is unchanged , and committeth sin , he is not justified ; and who is born of god and are justified , are really cleansed and really doth partake of righteousness and holiness , even of the righteousness and holiness of the son of god , and in that righteousness he is accounted righteous , and in no other , nor by no other way then by receiving christ and his righteousness , and being made partakers of it in their hearts , for the apostle said , if christ be not in you , you are reprobates , and such are not justified , nor accounted just and holy who have not christ within them , and his righteosness , but who hath christ within , the hope of glory , and are accounted just and righteous in the sight of god , the body of sin is put off ; for if christ be in you , the body is dead because of sin , and such are really cleansed , and if he be in you , you are made partakers of reall righteousness and holiness , and this is the truth of the gospell of christ which confounds and condemnes thy false doctrine , for no man is accounted and reputed just and holy , but who are cleansed from sin , & are in christs ; for who doth commit sin are unholy , and so reputed of god , and sin is reckoned to them , and this all will find in the day of the lord , when he comes to judge righteously , and to give every man according to his works , and not according to what he may make a shew of and profess in words , though all you false daubers with untempered morter , heale up the hurt of the daughter of sion deceitfully , and cry peace , peace , by a false applying the promises and words of christ , when god speakes no peace , and even you and your false daubed wall will be whirle-wind of the lord beat down and destroy utterly ; and this i assert contrary to thy false doctrine and principles , that none are justified , but who hath christ in them , and really partakes of holiness and righteousness , and are really cleansed from sin , and are born of the spirit of god , and is heire of the promise of eternall life . and further thou saist iustification admitteth not of any degree ▪ and if a person be iustified from any one sin , he is iustified from all sin , as well from sins to be committed , as those that are already commited , and who is once a iustified person , is not unjustified upon new sin committed , &c. ans. grace and faith , and truth , and christ himself admitteth of degrees , or measures which are one , and there are severall measures of life , of light , of grace and faith , of sanctification , and of justification also ; for according as every man , hath received christ so hath he received sanctification , and justification , and no otherwise , for christ is made wisdome , and sanctification , and salvation , and every one feels his sanctification , and his justification , according to the measure of the gift of christ given to him , so that there are severall measures of justification , and also a man may be justified from one sin , or some sin , and not from all sin ; for according to every mans sanctification , so is the witness of his justification to him , and no more ; and if thou knowest any thing by experience thou knowest this , and no man is justified from the evill which he is to commit , for that faith gives licence to sin , if any committing sin , shall beleeve that that sin is long since forgiven , and he is justified from it , and if he shall beleeve he is justified , though he commit sin , even long before he commits his sin , this will be a cause to run into sin , and is a gap opened by thee , unto all unrighteousnesse ; why , if people can believe they are justified from the sins which they have yet to commit , what should restrain them from running with pleasure into all unrighteousness ? & if new sins alwaies committed , do not make persons unjustified , then may the sinners rejoice in their sins , and take their pleasure in ungodliness ; this doctrine of thine is pleasant to the wicked , and it is the way and principle of liberty in all sin , rather then the principles to lead from sin , and so thou hast shewed whose work thou art doing , by strengthning the wicked in his way , so that he cannot turne from sin , rather then drawing him from sin , and this is the devils work . and thou saist such as are justified , are regenerated and sanctified ; and a little before thou said to be justified is not to be cleansed , nor is it to partake of real righteousnesse ; and persons are justified from sins which they have to commit . and these are contradictions , and proceed out of darknesse , and not from the light ; and thy folly and ignorance may be read by all men ; for who are regenerated and sanctified are cleansed , and partakes of real righteousnesse ; and thou further saist , that sanctification is a real change from sin to the purity of the image of god and i say none are sanctified but they are justified , so none are justified but who are changed into the image of god , this the trut● saith , and wherein thou hast said contrary , thou hast spoken contrary to the truth , and the truth will judge thee . again thou saist sanctification is not perfect in this life , & the new man , the spirit or law of the mind , is that grace or imperfect sanctification , &c. ans. then christ is not perfect in this life , for he is made of god unto us sanctification , 1 cor. 1. 30. but we say christ is perfect , and therefore sanctification is perfect , and the new man is the image of god , and is created in righteousnesse and in true holinesse ; but thou saist the new man is imperfect ; consider of thy principles , when they are compared with the scriptures , and see the error and wickednesse of them , and the spirit and law in the mind is the spirit of god , and the law of god in which the apostles served god , and so doth all the saints ; but thou saist the spirit and law in the mind , is imperfect , and this is error in the highest degree , to say or signifie that the new man the image of god , that is in righteousnesse and true holinesse , and the spirit of god and the law of god is imperfect sanctification , and grace is the salvation , and is gods sufficiencie , and that thou saist is imperfect also ; and thus thy principles of thy religion which thou walkest in thy selfe , and would teach to others , are abominable , corrupted principles of error , and contrary to the spirit of truth , and to the scriptures also ; and no marvel that thy name is concealed , for thy work deserves not a good mans name to it ; much more might be said to lay open further thy folly , but this is sufficient to men of understanding ; and contrary to thee i do assert , that the new man , the image of god , the spirit and law of god in the mind , is perfect grace and perfect sanctification , and thou hast said the contrary , and now whether thy principles of religion , or mine , be the more true , and whether fals , let all sober men judg with the light in their conscience , and thou saist , the old man , the flesh , the body of sin , the body of death , is the sin that remaines in sanctified persons . ans. who are sanctified , are ●reed from the body of sin and death , and hath put it off , and the law of the spirit of life hath freed them from the flesh , and from the old man ; for if the old man , the fl●sh , the body of sin , and death be in the sanctified person● , then there is none sanctified at all , and what are they sanctified , freed and cleansed from , if the old man , the fl●sh , the body of sin and death be yee remaining in them ? thou speakest like an unlearned man , and one that , knowes not the sanctified estate , but art erring in thy mind , and judgment , and in thy words also , for we have put off the old man , and are crucified to the flesh , and made free from the body of sin and death , and this is our sanctification , and who are remaining in these things are not sanctified , but in the degeneration , and hath no part yet in the kingdom of god , nor in christ jesus , but are without him in the world . and thou saist , the sanctification of the first day , hath put an end to the sanctification of the seventh &c. ans. here again thou hast uttered that which thou knowes not , for all daies are alike unto god , and one sanctified as much as an other , and no respect of daies with him , but all are holy , and pure , and good , and when the sanctification of any thing is put to an end , ( as as thou saist the sanctification of the seventh day is ) then the thing is no more good , nor holy , but become evil and unclean , if it be no more sanctified nor holy , and in this principle thou hast erred also ; as for the seventh day it was commanded of god to the jews , to be kept and observed holy to the lord , and all manner of labour to all creatures were forbiden , which thing was a signe and a shadow of a good thing to come , the end of which ordinance was christs the substance of all things , and the end of daies , and that there was any anulling of that command to the jews , and a command to keep and observe the first day of the week in stead of the other , by any outward command , this we read not in all the scriptures , and what ground thou hast more then thy imaginations i know not ; to assert the changing of dayes , and to teach the observation of the first day , as the sabbath instead of the seventh day , seeing thou hast nothing in the scriptures to raise such a principle from , and so would make exception of daies , and respect of times which the apostles did not , after the holy spirit was come ; for daies and times all are a like to god , and who are come to christ the true rest of the immortal soul , are in the end of daies , and out of the respect of times , in the substance which endures for ever , and in the gospel ministrations , there is no command or injunction , by christ or by his apostles given to us for the observing any one day more then another . and thou saist , when it is said , swear not at all , the meaning is not vainly and unnecessarily . ans. christ hath not spoken doubtfully , but plainly , and he hath not left his words to thee to give thy fals meaning upon ; so thou takest too much upon thee , and intrudest into things thou hast not seen , and all swearing which is contrarie to the command of christ , is unnecessarie and vain , though by such false consequences and perverting of scriptures , thou & thy generation hast made the people to err , and led the blind by the way ; for where the scriptures , as they are in themselves , doth not made for your turn , then it means not thus , but otherwise , and this is the consequence , and it must be interpreted say you , and so you pervert the scriptures to your own destruction , and to the undoing of manie others , for you that lead the people cause them to err . and where is thou speakst , of outward seals of the covenant , which is baptism ( saist thou ) which appertaines to grown persons converted , and also to children , &c. acts 2. 39. ans. the seal of the covenant of god is the spirit , even the spirit of promise which sealeth and confirmeth unto god , and not any outward thing ; for the covenant of god is inward and spiritual , and not outward and carnal ; and the seal and testimonie of it , is the spirit of life , and no tradition of man ; and as for baptism in that way and manner administred and practised , as in the church of england , it is wholie an invention of man , and not after any institution and commandement of god , and sprinkling of infants , which is said to be baptism , is so far from being a seal of the covenant of god , that it is a mark of the whore of rome , and was by her first of all ordained and begun to be practised in her church , and your false minsters have received it from her , and it is a seal and sign that you and you ministrie and church is of the whore of rome , and not of the true church of christ ; for , the apostles nor the true church of christ never ordained nor practised such a thing amongst them ; and in the true church , as sprinkling of infants and calling it the baptism in the faith of christ , and the seal of the covenant , there was no such practice and dostrine amongst them ; but it is come up since the true church fled into the wildernesse , and since the beast received power over kindreds and nations , and it is an institution of the great whore that hath sat upon the waters , for many generations , and she hath made nations drink her cup of fornication , and the original of this practice and principle is received out of the whores cup , and not by any commandement of christ , or axample of his church and apostles ; and i cannot but charge thee , that thou teaches for doctrine the traditions of men , and holds forth for principles of religion , to be believed and learned , the institutions of the great whore , of whose cup thou hast drunk , and would also give it to others that they may drink it also , and to accomplish which evil end thou hast perverted the scriptures acts 2. 39. for the scripture hath no such thing intended in it , as to the baptising of infants , for which end thou hast falsely cited it , for though the promise is to as many as the lord our god shall call , yet what is this to the sprinkling of infants , which thou asserts as a principle of religion , and would seem to enforce it , by vertue of the scripture mentioned ? but thou hast abused the scripture , and shewed thy selfe to be disagreeing to the holie ministers and apostles of christ , and to be agreeing with the false church of rome , and this is answer sufficient to thee . and thou saist , the outward covenant of god is conditionall , and the profession of the faith entitles both such as make it , and their infants unto it ( to wit , ) the covenant . ans. the covenant of god is not outward but spiritual , as i have said , and it is also free , even the free gift of god , and the promise and covenant is freely manifested without the performing any thing by the creature to obtain it from god , for it stands not upon condition , but upon free love and mercie ; and many makes a profession of faith which hath not right nor title to the inheritance of salvation , nor to gods sure covenant , neither can anie upon earth , much lesse infants void o● understanding , have any assurance or title in the covenant of life eternal , but who are regenerated and born of the elect seed , for the unchanged and degenerated , in that state hath no title nor right in the covenant , but abrahams seed which is heir of the promise , which is born of god and not from below , to that is the covenant ; so thou hast spoken things thou knowest not , and hast manifested thy false principles which thou walkest in , and would cause others to receive them also . then thou speakest , of bread and wine , which ( saist thou ) are the outward signes in the lords supper , and are aseal of the covenant also , &c. ans. the supper of the lord is the bread of eternal life , the bodie and blood of christ , and who eats thereof shall never die , nor hunger and thurst any more ; and as for bread and wine visible and carnal , that is not the real supper of the lord , and even the purest institution and practice thereof is but a representation of a thing , and not the very thing , and the end and substance being come , the outward sign may be neglected ; but as for the manner and institution of that practice in the church of england , and the practise it selfe , we deny to be either a sign of good past , or to come ; but in an idolatrous way it is leld forth , and not in any true honour to god ; for he is thereby dishonoured ; for the false church hath gotten the forme of that practice as well as of many others , ( which the true church once practised ) without the power , and now doth practise many things , in meer imitation and vain idolatry , and in form and tradition , and without the teaching of the spirit , which sometime the true church and the apostles practised in the power , and by the leading of the spirit of god , and what the command of god was unto them ; so that though you may in some things practice the very same which the apostles did , yet having not the same spirit to lead you , nor being guided thereby as the saints and the apostles were , your works are but idolatry and formal , and not accepted of the lord , but stinks in his nostrels , and your covenant is outward , and your seals outward , your baptism and supper outward and carnal , and while you are with zeal prosecuting your outward proformances and following them , you neglect the inward , and the substance , which is christ within you the hope of glory , which if he be in you , then the body of sin is put off , and the vail is done away , and the representations are done away , and the substance and salvation is come , and if christ be not in you , you are reprobates , notwithstanding all your profession and practises of outward duties unto god without his spirit . and whereas thou hast quoted , col. 3. 10. gal. 5. 17. rom 7. 23. to prove that the new man , the spirit or law of the mind , is called the imperfect sanctification . ans. hereby openly thou hast shewed thy self to be a perverter of the scriptures and a wrester of them to thy own destruction ; for let but reasonable men peruse the scriptures mentioned by thee , and see if there be such a thing in them as held forth by thee ; that the new man , the spirit or law of the mind , is called imperfect sanctification , which thou hast asserted , and cited those texts to prove it , but to as to the thing it self i have answered before ; onely this is to shew , thy manner of perverting scriptures ; which is the work of the evil spirit in thee , and not the work of the spirit of god . and thus i have examined some part of thy principles of religion which thou hast put forth into the world , for others to learn ; and the error and falsness of them is laid open , and how contrary to the scriptures they are , and in haste as it were , i have passed over it , not willing to rake into things which gave no just occasion against truth ; but have onely confuted a few of thy many particulars ; which had i narrowly sought into other things , much unsoundness would have been discovered ; but what i have said is truly sufficient to discover unto sober persons , the error of thy judgement , and of thy principles and practices , and of thy whole religion ; and before ever thou be a true instructor of others in the way , thou must first repent and believe , and learn the way thy self , which yet thou are ignorant of ; for thou hast shewed no knowledge but what is sensual and devilish , and from below , and meerly carnal , and natural ; and meeting with thy book , and enquiring what the author was , i was engaged to say something to it by way of answer , and to lay it to the line of judgement according to the scriptures ; and it hath proved very guilty of error , and perverting scriptures , and of corrupt principles ; and in justice i could not but condemn it , and if thou shall receive the conviction of thy error , and of thy false doctrines by my answer , and repent , it shall prove to thy good ; but if thou shalt be stiff-necked , and harden thy heart , then shall thy condemnation be the greater and thy judgement the more just ; because god hath warned thee , and given thee a day of visitation , and shewed thee the error of thy wayes and judgement that thou mightest forsake thy transgressions , and be converted and live ; but whether thou shalt harden thy heart and remain in error , or repent or turn from it ; my reward is with the lord , and in him i have peace in this matter ; whatsoever , thy mind shall be towards me in my work ; for i stand not to mans judgement while i cannot be convinced of error in this business , and if thou shalt envy me , and have wrath in thy heart towards me , because i have dealt to plainly with thee in reproving of thee ; then thou wilt but add to thy own sin , and add more wrath up in store against thy self against the time of thy judgement , and a greater burden will lie upon thy conscience ; wherefore consider of these things and let not the day of thy visitation passe over , and be shut up with the night of darkness , and thou be everlastingly condemned ; and if thou shalt vindicate thy own false principles , by answering to me again ; thinking to clear thy self , and to reprove me , that will not prove thy best way because thou wants the truth and righteousness to stand by thee ; and to appear bold in a bad cause , will shew more wickedness , then sign of repentance ; and if thou do answer a sound reply will further unfold the misterie of iniquitie that lyes hid in thee , and be thy greater shame ; and as for thee and all the false ministers , god hath discovered you , and you are made bare and naked , and the false woman the whore , your mother , her shame is discovered and her judgement is come , and god is avenging us on her , and great babylon is now come into remembrance before the lord , to bring her down to the ground , and you have long made a prey upon the heritage of the lord , and been spoilers thereof , rather then builders of her breach , and she hath been troden down , and not pittied by you ; and as for your poor ignorant hearers they lie in thick darkness , and loves to have it so ; and the blind hath led the blind , and yet the light is arising out of thick darkness , and its appearance shall be glorious to expell all your errors , and that mist of darkness that doth now cover them , and this light shall arise in mens consciences , which shall discover the difference between every false , and the right way ; and all that take heed to the light shall no longer sit in darkness nor in the shadow of death , but their steps shall be directed in a perfect way ; and the glory of the lord shall shine forth upon them , and this will the lord bring to pass , and hasten his work , and cut it short in righteousness , for his elects sake . the 21. of the 3. mon. 1659. by a lover of thy soul , and a seeker of the good and peace of all men . e. b. the end . independency examined, vnmasked, refuted, by twelve new particular interrogatories: detecting both the manifold absurdities, inconveniences that must necessarily attend it, to the great disturbance of church, state, the diminution, subversion of the lawfull undoubted power of all christian magistrates, parliaments, synods: and shaking the chiefe pillars, wherwith its patrons would support it. / by william prynne of lincolnes inne, esquier. prynne, william, 1600-1669. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a91196 of text r210043 in the english short title catalog (thomason e257_3). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 49 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 8 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a91196 wing p3985 thomason e257_3 estc r210043 99868877 99868877 159221 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a91196) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 159221) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 44:e257[3]) independency examined, vnmasked, refuted, by twelve new particular interrogatories: detecting both the manifold absurdities, inconveniences that must necessarily attend it, to the great disturbance of church, state, the diminution, subversion of the lawfull undoubted power of all christian magistrates, parliaments, synods: and shaking the chiefe pillars, wherwith its patrons would support it. / by william prynne of lincolnes inne, esquier. prynne, william, 1600-1669. 12 p. printed by f.l. for michael sparke senior, and are to be sold at the blew-bible in green-arbour., london, : 1644. annotation on thomason copy: "sept: 26". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church polity -early works to 1800. government, resistance to -religious aspects -early works to 1800. independent churches -england -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century -early works to 1800. a91196 r210043 (thomason e257_3). civilwar no independency examined,: vnmasked, refuted, by twelve new particular interrogatories: detecting both the manifold absurdities, inconvenience prynne, william 1644 8646 36 0 0 0 0 0 42 d the rate of 42 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-07 angela berkley sampled and proofread 2007-07 angela berkley text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion independency examined , vnmasked , refuted , by twelve new particular interrogatories : detecting both the manifold absurdities , inconveniences that must necessarily attend it , to the great ▪ disturbance of church , state , the diminution , subversion of the lawfull undoubted power of all christian magistrates , parliaments , synods : and shaking the chiefe pillars , wherewith its patrons would support it . by william prynne of lincolnes inne , esquier . rom. 12. 16. be of the same minde one towards another : minde not high things , but be contented with meane things : be not wise in your owne conceits . 1 pet. 5. 5. likewise ye younger , submit your selves unto the elder ; yea all of you be subject one to another , and be cloathed with humility : for god resisteth the proud , and giveth grace to the humble . ephes. 4. 14 , 15. henceforth be no more children , tossed to and fro , and carried about with every winde of doctrine , by the slight of men , and cunning craftinesse , whereby they lye in wait to deceive : but speaking the truth in love , grow up into him in all things , which is the head , even christ . london , printed by f. l. for michael sparke senior , and are to bee sold at the blew-bible in green-arbour . 1644. independency examined , unmasked , refuted , by twelve new particular interrogatories . courteous reader , it being expected by some , that i should ( upon second thoughts ) render ) a more particular account of my disapprobation of the independent platforme , then i have lately done in my twelve considerable serious questions touching church-government , wherein i propounded my reasons against the same , but in a generall manner : i shall for thy further satisfaction , and our churches peace ( most necessary and desirable in these dangerous times ) propose by way of interrogation , my more particular exceptions , against this new form of government , with all ingenuity and freedome , without reflection upon any particular persons , or just disgust ( unlesse * truth displease ) to those who are contrary-minded : my only aim being to convince , reconcile , not irritate or disaffect them . the reason why i thus write by way of question , not descision , is , because ( for ought i finde ) the independents have not yet dogmatically , in direct termes ▪ discovered to the world the ful truth of what they assert , but politikely conceale the principall grounds , and more deformed parts of their church-platforme , till a further opportunity , for feare their very discovery at the first should cause their new building to miscarry . whereupon i have rather chosen to pump out their determinations by the ensuing questions to avoid mistakes then to refute them upon ba●e conjectures ; following the apostles seasonable advise , 1 thes. 5. 21. prove all things , hold fast that which is good . 1. whether the independent former of church-government , now so much contended for as the a only church-government of divine institution , which all ( say they ) are bound to submit unto , be anywhere to be found in the old or new testament ? what texts or presidents ( if so essentiall and necessary as it pretended ) doe either directly prescribe or delineate it unto us ? vnder what dark cloud or vaile hath it layn totally obscured , for hundreds yea thousands of years that it never appeared in any church nation , republike in the world from adams dayes till ours ? and whether it be yet so clearly revealed to those who pretend best knowledge of it , as to be positively resolved on amongst them what it is , or what the benefits or mischiefes of it may prove to be ? if not , i shall conclude of this new-government , as our saviour doth in his parabolicall speech concerning new-wine , b no man having drunke old wine streightway desireth new for he saith , the old is better : old presbytery , old unlordly episcopacy , are ( no doubt ) far better for us then new independency . 2. whether some independents do not extraordinarily eclipse , impeach , if not absolutely deny and subvert the lawfull power of civill magistrates , all former parliaments ▪ and the present too , in all matters of church-goverment and potlesiasticall affaires , contrary to their solemne covenant and protestations , ●o defend the ancient priviledges & authority of parliament , and even quite blow ●p all their ecclesiastick authority ( by a new kinde of gun-powder ) at one breath : yea lay most foul , scandalous , uncharitable censures upon the honourable members of this parliament , who deserve far better language from them ▪ witness this most observable dangerous passage , lately dropped from their pens , in a reply of two of the brethren to a. s. ( newly printed ) pag. 81 , 82. thirdly , if the law of the state be the first and most considerable band or tye upon men , to submit unto the power of your combined eldership , ( as you seeme here to imply , in saying , that all men and all churches thereof are bound by law , &c. ) then you must acknowledge , that the root and base of your government is * potestas secularis , secular authority : and then how is it ecclesiastick or spirituall ? a man may as well bring a cleane thing out of an uncleane ( in jobs expression ) as make a spirituall extraction out of a secular root . secondly , it will rest upon you to prove , that the civill state hath a power to forme and fashion the government of the churches of christ . yea , thirdly and lastly , it will be demonstratively proved against you , that you resolve the government of the churches of christ ( in the last resolution of it ) into the humours , wills , and pleasures of the world , yea of the vilest and most unworthy of men . brethren , bona verba quaeso : is this your printed , publike , avowed language of parliaments and the members of it , even to the very face of the most religious , best-deserving parliament that ever sate , which hath been most indulgent to you hitherto ? is this your so much boasted c preaching , writing , fighting for the priviledges and rights of parliaments , which ever since the first planting of religion among us to this present , haue framed and fashioned the government of our churches in all ages , as i can demonstratively manifest by good antiquities ? certainly this language of yours ( with sundry other like passages in this your much-applauded d reply ) cause intelligent men to suspect , that the designe of some of your party is , to hugge embrace the parliament , in shew , just as the yvie doth the tree , thereby to advance your selves ( the onely absolute ecclesiasticall dictators , law-givers ) and your independent churches by degrees above the parliament , and then to over-top , suppresse its power in the end ; or else to ruine it & us for the present , by endeavouring to raise schismes among us , both in parliament , city , country , and our armies , because they now discerne the major part of both houses and the synod inclined against your independent novelties . if this be the accursed project of any of you , ( for i dare not harbour so ill a thought of the greatest part ) the lord will both discover and avenge it to their infamy , in due season : in the meane time , to answere the substance of this most derogatory scandalous passage against parliaments ; i sadly referre it to all rationall mens judgments in the world , whether a parliament of the most eminent , religious , learned , grave , zealous wisest peeres and commons of this realme ( the representative body and grand councell of the kingdom ) assisted with the advice judgment of an assembly of the most orthodoxe pious consciencious ▪ learned ministers in our church , specially selected for this purpose , & of the chiefest of your independent party ▪ be not more fit to form , & fashion the government of the churches of christ , and better able to resolve , determine upon long and serious debate , what church-government is most agreeable to the word of god , and fittest for every particular parish-church throughout this island , for the advancement of gods glory , the peoples salvation , the generall peace and tranquillity of church and state then any one or two independent ministers , with five or sixe of their illiterate , impolitick , and perchance inconsiderate members ( to use no harsher epithite ) assembled in a private conventicle , can doe in two or three houres space ? and whether it bee meeter that these should prescribe a church-government , discipline to themselvs the parliament , synod , and whole kingdome to boot ; or the parliament and assembly to them , who deeme themselves e wiser , holier in their owne vaine conceits , then a thousand parliaments , synods put together ? i doubt not they wil all confesse , that in their congregationall debates about any point of order , discipline government or doctrine , in any of their independent churches , the f major voice or party ought to over-rule and binde the lesse ; and if so , let them yeeld me a solid reason , when they are able , why the ecclesiasticall constitutions , resolutions , orders , edicts of the greatest part of an whole nationall parliament , synod , kingdome , should not much more binde both them and all their independent churches as well as others , as they have ever hitherto done ? and why a combined presbytery , of many , learned ministers , lawyers , gentlemen of best judgment , quality , should not be fitter to decide all church-controversies and affaires of moment within their prefixed limits , by generall laws and canons setled in parliament by common consent , then any independent or popular tribunall of lesser judgement and experience , by their owne arbitrary privat edicts ? else they must deny what the holy ghost informs us , g that two are better then one ; h that in the multitude of counsellours there is safety : or that the pious i kings in the old testament , or a nationall councell , or parliament of their princes , nobles , elders , captaines , and people of best quality , had any lawfull power to reforme or settle all weighty ecclesiasticall church-affaires ; as they ever did by gods owne command and approbation . 3. whether it be not the independents professed tenet , if truely and positively laid downe , that * every minister hath a divine right and liberty , to gather to himselfe an independent church , not of pagans , infidels converted by himselfe alone , but of all the eminentest christians formerly converted , and regenerated by the ministry of others ( especially if rich or potent persons , able to give them large contributions and support ) who shall voluntarily submit themselves to his ministry , and such a church-government as he shall dictate to them : though by our established lawes and customes , ( which our solemne vow and covenant obligeth us to maintaine ) they be parishioners to twenty other godly ministers , by whose ministry they were first regenerated and built up in grace ? that every christian hath a free liberty , by the law of god , to unite himselfe to what independent congregation hee pleaseth ; the husband to one congregation , the wife to another , the children to a third , the servants to a fourth ; nay , every distinct person in a family to a severall church , ( and that not onely without , but against the consents of their owne magistrates , ministers , husbands , parents , masters , who have no jurisdiction ( as some say ) over their consciences herein ; so as one great family shall be divided into members of twenty or thirty severall independent churches , if they please , and those perchance different one from another in their government , opinions , discipline , ceremonies ? that those whose consciences or judgments will not permit them to joine with their independent churches , ( which they * professe to be canonicall ( though guided by no canons ) and of divine assertion , denying all other church-government to be so ) must be wholly excluded ( as heathens and reprobates ) from being members of any church ; or rather ( by the self-same christian liberty as independents plead for ) they may unite themselves into presbyteriall or hierarchicall churches , or what other forme they please to elect : and so we shall have an independent church-government in one part of a family , parish , town , county , kingdom ; a presbyteriall in another ; an episcopall in a third : and by this means if the husband bee a great stickler for episcopacy , and member of a prelaticall church ; the wise a fierce zealot for independency , and a member of such a congregation ; the children or servants stout champions for presbytery , and members of such assemblies , what confusion distraction , implacable contestations , * schismes , tumults this licentiousnesse ( for i cannot stile it freedome of conscience ) would soone inevitably engender in all families , villages , cities , counties , kingdomes , to their utter ruine and desolation , the meanest capacity may with ease divine ; without the help of an oracle . however , it would unavoidably subvert all ancient bounds of parishes , all setled maintenance for the ministry by tithes or otherwise and put all ministers into the condition of friars mendicants , to live ( as independents do ) upon the almes or voluntary contributions of their severall congregations , to whose humours , errours , opinions , they must either readily conforme , or else starve for want of subsistence , in case of their displeasure , being subject to casheering upon every small dislike . 4. whether independents must not necessarily grant from their owne principles , that as every minister hath free liberty to congregate what church hee pleaseth , of men suitable to his own opinions , practise ; so also particular persons have a like liberty to unite themselves together into a church , to elect what minister they thinke best , and prescribe to themselves what government they shall conceive to be most sutable to the scriptures ? and if so , then every man will * heap to himselfe teachers , and erect churches after his own lusts : meer papists ▪ and popishly affected persons , will set up popish churches and priests ; arminians , arminian churches and preachers ; anabaptists , anabaptisticall ministers and assemblies ; arrians , anti-trinitarians , such conventicles and pastors ; libertines , a licentious church and ministry ; yea , every heretick , sectary , or guidy-pated enthusiast , upon pretext of new revelations and discoveries of concealed evangelicall truths , ( though when exactly scanned they may oft times prove old errors or meer diabolicall delusions ) will erect new independent churches of their own ( and that for succession and perpetuity to the perverting of infinit soules ) , uncontroulable , unsuppressible by any ecclesiasticall or civill authority : and thus in few moneths , or yeares space at least , through satans instigations , our owne depraved judgments , ( a verse to unity , piety , purity , but † prone to errour , heresie , schismes , lyes yea lying phantasies ) and through defect of a severe coercive power , in ecclesiasticall synods-parliaments , temporall magistrates , ( who as * some new independent lights informe us , have no coercive power to suppresse these springing heresies , but onely by a non-communion with or refuting them by the word to which they will obstinatly * refuse to hearken , as deeming their own opinions most divine : ) we shall have almost as many severall heresies , sects , churches , as there are families , persons ; ( quot homines tot sententiae , tot ecclesiae : ) yea , if they thus admit every minister , or secular person , to have a divine right , freedom , to set up such an independent church and government as he pleaseth ; then by the self-same reason , they must have a like liberty to elect erect , what civill forme of government they please ; to set up a new independent republike , corporation kingdome , magistracy , in every family , parish , city , county , and to cast off all former civill governours , governments , lawes at pleasure , as well as ecclesiasticall ; there being the selfe-same grounds both of obligation , obedience to , and exemption from the one as other . and if men by their christian liberty shall thus be wholly exempted at their pleasure , as well from all temporall as ecclesiasticall lawes and formes of government , ( as grant me but the one , they must of necessity yeeld the other ; the same texts , reasons obliging us equally in both , and * kings , parliaments having the self-same jurisdiction in and over all † ecclesiasticall matters , which are not positively of divine institution and injunction , as in and over temporall ) what an anarchy and ataxy this will suddenly introduce , to turn all kingdomes , republikes , nations , corporations , churches , families , and the world it self , quite upside down , and ruine them by schisms ; i tremble to imagine . 5. whether the minister alone , or the congregation without the minister , or both conjoined , have power in their independent churches to make and prescribe particular formes of church-covenants , orders , conditions , to all who are or shall be admitted members of their new erected congregations ? if the minister alone , without the people , ( which i suppose they grant , because he is the principall actor in gathering their new churches to himselfe , and the sole person who must first admit them to be members of his flock , upon his own conditions : ) i would then demand ; whether every independent minister arrogates not as much or more power to himselfe , in making , prescribing lawes and covenants to his congregation by his own inherent authority , without consent of king , parliament , synod , or people , as the pope himselfe usurpeth , and farre more power , authority , then independents either do or dare ascribe to christian princes , magistrates , councels , or the parliament ? to all and every of which they absolutely * deny any power of making or prescribing ecclesiasticall lawes , covenants , canons , to binde them , or their independent churches or any members of them ; yea any sufficient coercive power to restrain or punish hereticks , schismaticks , or broachers of heterodox novell opinions , to disturb the churches or republikes tranquillity . if the people alone without the minister , or both conjoyned , then you invest every independent conventicle , consisting of never so few inconsiderable ignorant members , with a greater legislative power , and ecclesiasticall authority , then you allow to whole nationall parliaments , councels , consisting of most eminent , learned , pious persons of all sorts ; who by your new doctrine have no jurisdiction at all to make or enjoyne any forme of church-government , covenant , ecclesiasticall lawes or canons , to any particular churches : as if the eminentest ministers and members of churches , by becomming members of parliaments or councels , did thereby forfeit and lose the right or exercise of that power , in those great representative bodies of the whole kingdome and church of england , which you readily allow both them and others in every private church or conventicle : a most strange and senselesse whimsie . 6. whether it be lawfull or justifiable by the word of god , for any independent minister of england , contrary to the lawes of the realme and inhibitions of parliament , of his owne bare authority to congregate and erect an independent congregation ; or to prescribe a particular forme of church-government , together with a church-covenant ( in nature of a solemne oath ) to which euery particular member of his new congregation must subscribe before admission into his church ? whether there bee any the least precept , president in scripture , or antiquity to warrant such an irregular usurped authority and power among christians ; which the verie apostles themselves never claimed ? whether all the particular churches in any nation , kingdome , city , republike professing the same orthodox faith , though divided ( for more conveniency ) into severall congregations , be not all members of , and constitute but * one intire nationall church , or common christian society , as they did at first , before thus multiplied , augmented ? ( even as all the particular houses , parishes , societies in london are members of and make but one city and corporation ; all the families , parishes , townes , counties in england , but one kingdome or republike ; and as all particular and nationall churches in the world , make up but one entire catholike militant church : ) whence both in scripture phrase , and common speech in all authors . languages whatsoever , they are commonly called by the name of one church , in the singular number ; as , the church of england , france , scotland , ireland ; the eastern , westerne , greeke , latine church ; the church of the jewes , gentiles , &c. and if so , then let our independents shew me , if they can , the least colour of scripture or reason , why the parliament and assembly ( chosen to assist them by publike consent ) representing our whole church , state , may not as lawfully set up and prescribe a new church-government , discipline , lawes and canons , agreeable to and not discrepant from gods word , to binde all particular churches and persons within our realme , as well as pull downe and demolish the old , or make temporall lawes and ordinances to binde all persons , societies , members of the realm , ( and independents too as well as others ) both to obedience and punishment ; or else for ever disclaim their new-minted government , their declamations , arguments against the power of nationall synods parliaments in ecclesiastical matters and church-government , as most ridiculous and absurd . 7. whether the members of every independent church , may at their owne free liberty , when ever they please , desert their owne particular church , and become members of other independent or presbyteriall congregations , without the licence or dispensation of their owne church or minister first obtained ? if yea , then why oblige they them to the contrary by particular church-covenants ; or refuse to admit any members of one independent church into another , without such consent or licence first obtained ; or at least repute it a grand injury in that church or minister who admits them ? ( especially if they be wealthy members , for some say poore ones , and persons of meaner condition , are not much regarded by independents , no more then poore or contemptible offices . ) if nay , then by what law or conscience doe , or can they congregate their independent churches out of twenty or thirty severall parishes and congregations , not onely without any authority of the state , or licence of the ministers or whole churches in those parishes ; but even against their expresse wills and desires ; yet thinke they doe god good service ; these ministers , parishes , no injustice by it , though it be directly contrary to their owne principles , and these common dictates of god and nature ; quod tibi non vis fieri alteri ne feceris : and , * all things whatsoever ye would that men should doe unto you , doe yee even so unto them , for this is the law and the prophets ? 8. whether independents peremptory refusall , to admit any to be member , of their churches , to receive the sacrament of the lords supper , or to have their children baptized among them , unlesse they will first subscribe to such particular church-covenants ; orders as they shall prescribe ; and their rigid excommunication , rejection of such members who have taken their covenants , in case they subscribe not to all their further dictates and opinions , without any re-admission , till they shall promise an universall conformity in opinion and practice to whatever is required by their independent minister or congregations ; be not an usurpation of as great yea greater coercive power over the consciences , persons of christians , as presbyterians , parliaments claime , or as the bishops themselves in the height of their pride and tyranny ( as bishops ) ever challenged or usurped ? notwithstanding christian liberty of conscience , in opinions , practice , ( which they pretend to leave arbitrary to every mans free election ) be the principall pillar to support , the sweetest inescating bait to entice men to embrace their independency ? if they say , they imprison enforce no mans person or conscience , but leave all persons , consciences free : i answer , that the excluding men from their church-assemblies , sacraments , christian communion , yea their very innocent infants from baptisme itselfe in their independent churches , unles they will conforme to their arbitrary church-covenants , dictates , prescriptions ( warranted by no scripture or divine examples ) is a farre greater * greivance , violence , coertion to the persons , conscience of christians , then all imprisonment , racks and corporall tortures in the world : yea an unjust exclusion of them from that undoubted right to the ordinances and church of christ wherewith god himselfe hath invested them . 9. whether independents refusall to admit such christians , who are not notoriously scandalous in their lives , nor grossely ignorant in the principles of religion , to the sacrament of the lords supper , when they earnestly desire to receive it , or professe a cordiall present remorse of all their former sinfull courses , with an unfained resolution to live a pious holy life for the future , onely upon this suspicion or apprehension , that they are but carnall men , not truly regenerated or sanctified by gods spirit , ( though they cannot certainly judge of their present spirituall conditions , † infallibly known to god alone ) be not a very uncharitable , arrogant , yea unchristian practice , contrary to our saviours owne immediate example , who at the first institution of this sacrament admitted * judas to his last supper as well as his fellow-disciples , though he certainly knew him to be both a traitor and devill ; opposite to the injunction of † paul himselfe , who though he disswades unworthy receivers from eating and drinking the lords supper without due preparation and examination , for feare of eating and drinking damnation or judgment to , and drawing downe temporall diseases on themselves ; yet he simply excludes none from receiving it , at their owne perils , who are willing , or desirous to participate of it , nor gives any authority to ministers absolutely to seclude them from it , unlesse excommunicated and notoriously scandalous . and whether their present deniall to administer the sacrament in their churches to those who are truely religious , earnestly longing even frequently to receive it for their spirituall comfort , according to christs own institution , only for fear lest some unregenerate persons should communicate with them , and depriving their whole congregations of this most comfortable necessary ordinance for sundry months , nay yeares , ( as some have done ) upon this groundlesse , unwarrantable reason● , refuted by christs owne example , who administred the sacrament to the other disciples though there were a judas amongst them ; by the practice , doctrine of paul himself 1 cor. 11. 17. to 34. and the usage of all christian churches throughout the vniverse , be not an over-rigid , uncharitable , unjust ( that i say not impious ) action , injurious to christ himself , to the soules and spirituall estates of those good christians secluded from the sacrament , and a more transcendent strain of tyrannicall usurpation over the soules , the consciences of christians , and ordinances of god himself , than ever our most domineering lordly prelates exercised , or any presbyterians have hitherto pretended to lay claim unto ? if this proceed not from a domineering spirit , and be not an excessive * lording of it over the lords inheritance , yea over christ himself in this his ordinance , i professe i am much mistaken : yea , i feare this spirituall pride and excessive uncharitablenesse of some , who take upon them by their owne inherent power to erect new congregations , and set up new formes of church-government , discipline , &c. in christian states , churches , already planted , without , yea against their parliaments , or † christian magistrates authority , when as the very apostles did never by their owne ordinary jurisdiction , as private ministers , but onely by their extraordinary calling , as apostles ; or in and by their canonicall epistles , dictated by gods spirit prescribe any matters of church-government , discipline , rites , or order to the particular churches first gathered and planted by themselves alone , as is evident by acts 7 , 1. to 8. c. 14. 22 , 23. tit. 1. 5. 1 cor. c. 7. & 11. & 12. & 14. c. 16. 1. 2. jam. 2. 2. 3. c. 5. 13. 14. 15. 16. except in and by a publike synod , acts 15. ) and thus debarre others from the sacrament , as unmeet receivers , upon such unwarrantable grounds , do make themselves far more uncapable , unmeet to receive it , than those they thus exclude . 10. whether that noted text of matth. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. if thy brother shall trespasse against thee , goe tell him his fault between thee and him alone ; if he will heare thee , then thou hast gained thy brother : but if he will not heare , then take with thee one or two more , that in the mouth of one or two witnesses every thing may be established . and if he shall neglect to heare them , tell it to the chvrch ; but if he neglect to heare the chvrch , let him be to thee as an heathen man and a publican ; be meant of any independent or ecclesiasticall consistorie , excommunication , or church-censures properly so called ? or not rather of the iewish synedrium , councell , or civill court of justice , and of a civill excommunication , like to an outlawry at the common law , as * mr selden with others more t●uely interp●t●t ? since our saviour speaks there , 1. of a private trespasse done to a private person , of which no church , classes , or ecclesiasticall consistorie , hath proper conusance ; not of a publike scandal to the congregation , or any scandalous crime or vice as is evident by the very first words , and by luk. 17. 3 , 4. compared with ●●n ▪ 50. 17. 1 king 8. 31. 2. of a demand of private satisfaction , first personally , next in presence of witnesse , before any complaint to the church or councell . 3. of no censure or judgment passed , but barely of an admonition given by the church to the partie offending ; which if neglected and not heard , then 4. not the church , councell , and all other persons , but onely the partie offended was to repute ( but not excommunicate out of the church or congregation ) him as an heathen , and a publicane , ( which were both odious to the iewes , who had no civill conversation with them , and were no members of the iewish church except proselites ) as the expresse words , let him be to thee ( not any others ) as an heathen and a pulican , ( that , is converse no more with him , but avoid his company , 2 thes. 3. 14. ) resolve , which reasons , compared with matth. 5. 22 , 25. c. 10. 17. c. 12. 14. c. 22. 15. c. 27. 1 , 7. acts 18. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. c. 16. 20 , 21. c. 17. 6. c. 23. 1. 14 , 15. c. 24. 1. to 7. c. 25. & 26. infallibly evidence , the church or assembly in this text to be meant onely of the temporall court , councell , or sanhedrin of the iewes , not of any ecclesiasticall or church-iudicatory , or excommunication , as papists anciently , with some others now determine . 11. whether the apostles and members of the first evangelicall synode , we read of acts 15. sate and voted in it as apostles onely , indued with a spirit of infallibilitie ( which was a peculiar priviledge to them alone , ) or else in their ordinary capacity , as elders and chief members of it ? if as apostles only , and in that extraordinary capacitie , as * independents assert : then 1. paul and barnabas being apostles as well as they , might have decided that controversie at antioch , without sending to jerusalem to determine it : 2. the church at antioch would have sent to none but the apostles to resolve their doubts , and not to the elders at jerusalem as well as to the apostles , as they did vers. 2. thirdly , paul and barnabas would have put the question to the apostles onely , not to the elders and church as well as to them , which they did vers. 4 , 5 , 6. fourthly , the apostles would not have called a synod of all the apostles elders and brethren at jerusalem to consider of or consult about this thing vers. 6. but have determined it presently by their infallible spirit without consultation , or a synods assistance . fifthly , peter and james would not have argued the case so largely , and proved it by arguments and scriptures as they did , one after another , vers. 17 to 23. but have peremptorily resolved it without dispute , had they sate and determined it by their extraordinarie infallible power . sixtly , the finall resolution , letters , and canons of this synod had run onely in the apostles names , had they proceeded onely by their apostolicall infallible authoritie , and not in the names of the elders and brethren too , ( coupled together with theirs both in the letters and canons , vers. 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 27 , 28. c. 16. 4. c. 21. 18. 25. ) who were not all endued with the self-same infallibility and power as the apostles were , for ought can be proved ; therfore their assembling in this councell , not in their extraordinary capacity as apostles only , but as elders , ministers ; and the elders , brethrens sitting together in councel with them , upon this controversie and occasion , is an undeniable scripture-authority for the lawfulnesse , use of parliaments , councels , synods under the gospel , upon all like necessarie occasions ; and for their power to determine controversies of religion , to make canons in things necessary for the churches peace and government , ( there being no one place in scripture against it , but many texts in the old testament to backe it , elsewhere quoted ) mauger all evasions , exceptions to elude it . 12. whether the temporall magistrate , parliament , and civill state , have not a lawfull coercive power , though * not to restraine the preaching of the gospel and truth of god , yet to suppresse , restraine , imprison , confine , banish the broachers of any heresies , schismes , erronious seditious doctrines , enthusiasmes , or setters up of new formes of ecclesiasticall government without lawfull authoritie , to the endangering of the peoples soules , or disturbance of the churches , kingdomes peace , as well as ministers and particular churches christians , power to * reprove , refute , avoid , excommunicate or anathematize them , notwithstanding † some independents new-minted objections against it : and that by virtue of deut. 13. 1. to 12. lev. 24. 11. to 17. num. 26. throughout , josh. 7. 25. 26. c. 22. 11. to 34. psal. 101. 4 5 , 8. 4 , 5 , 8. 1 king. 18. 40. 2 king. 10. 21 , to 29. c. 23. 5. 20. 2 chro. 34. 4. 5. rom. 13. 1. to 6. 1 pet. 2. 14. gal. 5. 12. rev. 2. 20. c. 19. 20. 21. cap. 17. 16. and the ten hornes ( interpreted to be ten kings v. 12. ) shall hate the whore ( with all her panders ) and shall make her desolate and naked , and shall eat her flesh , and shall burne her with fire : for god hath put it into their hearts to fvlfill his will , ezra 7. 26. and whosoever will not doe the law of thy god , let judgment be executed speedily upon him , whether it be unto death , or unto banishment , or to confiscation of goods , or to imprisonment , with sundry * other texts . hence * christian princes , magistrates , parliaments , in all ages and churches in the world have made severe temporall lawes , edicts against , and inflicted corporall punishment , banishment , confiscation of goods , ( and in some cases death it selfe ) upon hereticks , schismaticks , disturbers of the churches peace with erronious or seditious doctrines : which lawfull power of theirs hath ever bin asserted by the most † orthodox churches , writers in all ages , and never oppugned by any but anabaptists , who deny all civill magistrates , or such licencious hereticks , schismaticks , or false teachers , who would spread their pestilent errours , and seditious novell positions without restraint ; or durst never suffer martyrdome for , or seale them with the losse of their liberties , lives , estates , which godly orthodox martyrs and christians have cheerfully undergone , under pagan , hereticall , and popish kings , magistrates . and if we either deny , abolish , eclipse , diminish , or suspend this necessary coercive power ( the principall meanes under god to suppresse , extirpate all growing errours , schismes , which disturbe the churches trantranquilitie , seduce unstable soules ) our church and realmes will be soone overgrowne with dangerous errours , heresies , schismes , and brought to speedy desolation ; the contemptible sword of excommunication , or non-communion , and the bare preaching of gods word to obstinate hereticks , papists , schismaticks , ( who will * contemn the word , and excommunicate all other churches dissenting from them , as hereticall , schismaticall , as fast as they excommunicate or discommon them , and so propagate , perpetuate their heresies , schismes , without redresse ) being unable to suppresse such peremptory offendors , without the temporall magistrates sword of justice added to them ; who having a lawfull jurisdiction derived to them in the gospel , * to punish and suppresse all evill doers , without distinction , have doubtlesse an unquestionable authority to punish obstinate heretickes , schismaticks , false teachers , with temporall censures , who are the greatest malefactors , sinning against the word and truth of god , disturbing the peace of church , state , seducing and destroying peoples soules ; a far greater crime then to murder their bodies , or rob them of their estates . in briefe , all protestant churches whatsoever , in their publike * confessions acknowledge , that the care of preserving , propagating true religion ; of suppressing , extirpating heresies , errours , schismes , superstition , idolatry , and the fautors of them , by temporall punishments and censures of all sorts , doth principally belong to christian magistrates , kings , princes : ( which duty they can in no sort execute , if now ( with the anabaptists ) ou deny them this most just coercive power : ) that all lawfull civill magistrates and powers whatsoever , though instituted by men , are even in the new testament expresly resolved , to be the * ordinances of god , and all their just commands , lawes , edicts , ( not repugnant to gods word ) readily to be obeyed and submitted to , even for conscience , and for the lords sake , under paine of sinne and condemnation : therefore what ever our pious parliament , the supreme power , by advice of the assembly , after much fasting , prayer , disputes , advice , and serious consultation , shall order , decree touching church-government or discipline , as most consonant and not repugnant to gods word , ought in point of conscience to be submitted to by independents and all others , as to a government , discipline , ordinance approved of by god ; and if any heretickes , false teachers , schismaticks obstinately refuse conformity after due admonition , and all good means used to reclaim them the poets divinity and policy must then take place , as well in eclcesiasticall as civill and naturall maladies : * cuncta prius tentanda , sed immedicabile vulnus ense rescidendum est , ne pars syncera trahatur . deut. 12. 8. ye shall not doe after the things that we doe here this day , every man whatsoever is right in his owne eyes . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a91196e-250 * gal. 4. 16. a reply of two of the brethren to a. s. p. 66. b luk. ● . 37. * i pray informe me why an whole parliament and assembly of godly christians and divines , wherein are many of your owne chiefe independent ministers , members , should be more secular , unclean , filthy , or unable to make a spirituall extraction of church-government , then one of your independent churches or conventicles ? c a reply to a. s. p. 85. d page 42. to 65. e pro. 2●●●6 cap. 30. 1● . ●●● 65. 5. 〈◊〉 . 18. 10. to 16. f 1 chron. 13. 4 , 5. act. 15. 22 , 23 &c. g eccles. 4. 9 , 10 , 11 : h pro. 11. 14 i 1 chro. 13 3 , 4 , 5. &c. 28. 〈◊〉 29. 2 chro. ● . 5 & 6. & 7. c. 23 2 , 3. c. 30. 10. to 27. c. 31 ● . ●isth . 9 , 20. 〈◊〉 31. ezra 3. 1. c. 10. 1. &c , ●eh . 8. 1 , &c. * they should ●owell to define , 1. of how many members , every independent congregation should consist ? 2. within what precincts they should live ? 3. what set stipends they shall allow them , and how raised when ascertained ? 4. when and where their churches should assemble ? 5. who shall prescribe extraordinary 〈◊〉 of fasting or thansgiving to them upon just occasions ? 6. who shall rectifie their church-covenants , discipline , censures , government , if erronious or unjust ? 7. shew us a sufficient satisfactory commission from gods word for all they doe or desire , before they gather any churches . * reply of two of the brethren 64 , 65 , 66 , &c. * 1 cor. 1. 11. 12. 13. cap. 3. 3 , 4. mat. 12. 51. 52. 53. * 2 tim. 4. 3 ; 4 a proplaesse which concerns our present times . † gal. 5 , 20 , 21. c. 2. 11 , 12 , 14. act. 15. 39. ● thes. 2. 11. rom. 1. 29. 31 c. 16. 17. 1 tim 6. 5 , 6. tit. 3 9. * reply of two of the brethren pag. 52. ●0 61. * 2 tim 4 6. * see 1 chro. 13. 1 to 7. 2 chro. 5. & 6 , & 7. c. 15. 8. to 16 c. 30. 1 to 7. c. 31. 1. c. 34. 31 , 32 , 33 , 34. ezra 7. 26. cap. 10. 1 to 7. esth. 9. 20. to 32. † 25. h. 8 c. 19 21. 37. h. 8. c. 17 , 26. h. 8. c. 1 27. h. 8. c. 16. 28. h. 8. c. 10. 1. e. 6. c. 2. 1. eliz. 6. c. 1 , 2. 8. eliz. c. 1. 31. h. 8. c. 10 , 14. 32. h. 8. c. 22 , 24 , 28. 33. h. 8. c. 29 , 34. & 35. h. 8. c. 17. 19. 35. h. 8. c. 1. 3. * reply of two of the brethren p. 52. to 69. * as one and the same city , kingdom , nation , encreased with new houses , parishes , streets , territories , and generations of people , continue still but one and the self-same city , kingdom , nation : so the first christian church planted in any city , kingdome , nation , when spread over all that city , kingdome , nation , and distributed into severall particular congregations , continues but one and the self-same generall church of which all particular churches are members , and not independent absolute in themselves , divided from , or vnsubjected to the intire common nationall church . 1 cor. 12. 12 , to 22. ep●● . 2. 19 , 20 , 21. c. 1. 3 , to 17. acts 2. 47. * matth 7. 12. 〈◊〉 c. 6. 31. * psal. 34. 1. to 11. psal. 120. 3 psal. 42. 1 , 2. psal. 27 : 4. † 2 chro. 6. 30. ier 17. 19. 20. act. 1. 24 * m●●● . 26. 20 to 32. mark 14. 10 , &c. luke 22. 3. to 24. iohn 6. 70 , 71. † 1 cor. 11. 17. to 34. * 1 pet. 5. 3. † moses the chief temporal magistrate under the law , together with david , solomon , and other godly kings , did by gods owne direction , and approbation , direct , order , and settle all particulars in and about the altar , tabernacle , arke , temple , consecrating both them and the priests too , appointing all officers about them , together with the courses of the priests , singers ; & that by cōmon advice of the princes , captains , elders of the people , & not by the votes or directions of the priests , who had no ruling voice herein : which authority being no where revoked nor denied christian princes , magistrates , parliaments , under the gospel , they no doubt enjoy it still . and therefore these ministers who thus erect new churches usurp on their authority . * de anno civili , &c pr●satio p. 6. ● &c 18. p 83 , 84 and d jure natura & gent●um l. 4. c. 8. * reply to a. s. p 70 , 71. * mat. 10. 17 , 18 mar. 9. 10 , 13 acts 4. 16. to 23. c. 5. 17. to the end . * 1 tim. 1. 19 , 20. 2 cor. 6. 14. to 18. rom. 16. 17. tit. 3. 10 , 11. 2 ioh. 10 , 11. † reply of two of the brethren p. 51. to 63. * matt. 10. 17 , 18 , 21. c. 26. 47 , to 74. c. 27. 1 , to 60. acts 4. 1 , to 24 c. 5 17 , to 40. c. 6. 12 , 13. c. 9. 1 , 2 , 3. c. 11. 2 , 3 , 4. c. 16. 20 , to 40. c. 18. 12. &c. c. 23 , & 24 & 25 , & 26 , & 27. rightly understood . * iustinian . codic . l. 1. tit. 8. 10. and our lawes against iesuits , priests and recusants . † see the harmony of confessions sect. 19. * psal. 58. 4 , 5. ier. 30. 19. c. 〈◊〉 . 33. isa 30. ● , 10. 2 tim. 4 ▪ 3 , 1. * rom. 13. 1 , 〈◊〉 7. 1 pet. 2. 13 , 14 , 15. tit. 3. 1. * see harmony of confessions sect. 19. * rom. 13. 1 , to 8. 1 pet. 2. 13 , 14 , 15. tit. ● , 1 , 10 , 11. ● pet. 2. 10 , 11 iude 8 , 9 * ovid me 〈…〉 vindiciæ veritatis: truth vindicated against calumny. in a briefe answer to dr. bastwicks two late books, entituled, independency not gods ordinance, with the second part, styled the postscript, &c. / by henry burton, one of his quondam-fellow-sufferers. burton, henry, 1578-1648. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a78034 of text r200279 in the english short title catalog (thomason e302_13). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 92 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a78034 wing b6177 thomason e302_13 estc r200279 99861085 99861085 113213 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a78034) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 113213) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 50:e302[13]) vindiciæ veritatis: truth vindicated against calumny. in a briefe answer to dr. bastwicks two late books, entituled, independency not gods ordinance, with the second part, styled the postscript, &c. / by henry burton, one of his quondam-fellow-sufferers. burton, henry, 1578-1648. [4], 34, [2] p. printed by m.s. for gyles calvert, and are to be sold at his shop at the west end of pauls., london, : 1645. a reply to "independency not gods ordinance" by john bastwick, published in two parts. the last leaf is blank. annotation on thomason copy: "7bre 22" [i.e. september 22]. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng bastwick, john, 1593-1654. -independency not gods ordinance -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. dissenters, religious -england -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -religion -17th century -early works to 1800. a78034 r200279 (thomason e302_13). civilwar no vindiciæ veritatis:: truth vindicated against calumny. in a briefe answer to dr. bastwicks two late books, entituled, independency not gods burton, henry 1645 16820 43 35 0 0 0 0 46 d the rate of 46 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-04 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2008-04 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion vindiciae veritatis : truth vindicated against calumny . in a briefe answer to dr. bastwicks two late books , entituled , independency not gods ordinance , with the second part , styled the postscript , &c. by henry burton , one of his quondam-fellow-sufferers . levit. 19. 17. thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart : thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour , and not suffer sinne upon him . 1 tim. 5. 20. them that sin rebuke before all , that others also may feare . and ( tit. 1. 13. ) rebuke them sharply , that they may be sound in the faith . zach. 8. 19. love the truth and peace . london , printed by m. s. for gyles calvert , and are to be sold at his shop at the west end of pauls . 1645. ❧ to the ingenuous reader . christian reader ; thi● answer was long agoe so conceived and formed in the wombe , as the slow birth may seeme to have outgone its due time . it waited for the postscript ; which comming forth , proved such a strange creature , as some friends would not have mee foul my fingers with it . hezekiah's word to his people was , in such a case ; answer him not . but finding , that he still pursued me with his incessant provocations in more books since , i thought of salomons counsell , answer not ; and yet , answer . for i perceived , that no answer coming , a tumor began to grow , which needed timely lancing , to prevent some extreame inflamation hastening to a head , while the humour flowed in so fast : therefore i hastened at length as fast , as before i was slow , if possible to recover our brother . so as if i be quick and short with him it is to saye him with feare , plucking him out of the fine . i am plaine , and that 's all . farewell . a briefe answer to dr. bastwicks two late bookes , intituled , independency not gods ordinance , &c. first and second part , or postscript : by one of his quondam-fellow-sufferers . brother bastwicke , i had resolved for a time at least ( as i have done ) to have been silent in these controversies , though provoked not a little ▪ but now your two books you lately sent me as also your late triumphing at westminster , that the man in friday-street had not yet answered your booke , as was given out provoked me afresh in arenam descendere , to take them both to taske , and so vna fidelia duos parietes . and if the perusall of them be not enough in lieu of thankes , i have returned you a compendious answer ; wherein you have bound me by a double ingagement : the one , for the cause ; the other , for my person . but you will say , you have not named me in either of your two books . 't is true indeed . but give me leave to tell you , you have vellicated me , plucked me by the very beard . i will not say , as joab tooke amasa by the beard ; and , withall smote him in the fift rib . what ? use a brother so ? and a quondam-fellow-sufferer too ? yea , & to take him so disgracefully by his white beard too , & that with a scurrilous epithet , calling it * a great white ba●ket-hilted beard ? parcius ista . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ( as said the old poet ) pittying his white head , and his white chin . and the wise man saith , the beauty of old men is the gray head , yea a crowne of glory ▪ being found-in the way of righteousnesse . i remember when the g●●●es by force entred rome-gates , where they found the grave senators sitting in the gate in their senatorian robes , and their white staves in their hands , thinking thereby to strike some reverence into those harbarous gaules , and one of them redely taking one of the senators by his white beard , the good old senator , ( though in that condition ) not brooking such an affront , struck the gaul over the pate with his white rod ; though this cost him , and the rest their lives , the barbarians instantly falling a butchering of them . but for all your provocations throughout your books , brother , you shall not finde with me so much as a white staffe to lift up against you , though you charge us ( but how justly ) ▪ we have the sword in our hands . nor doe i purpose to retort , or retaliate your little expected , and lesse deserved calumnies , lest i should therein be like unto you : but i shall answer you in the words of truth and sobernesse , and in the spirit of meeknesse and love . but how comes it to passe , that my two fellow-sufferers , and my selfe , should fall at this odds ? was it by any divine providence ominated or presaged , by your two standings on one pillary , and mine alone in the other , that wee should now come upon one ▪ theatre to become spectacles to the world , by mutuall digladiations , as if the one pillary should contend with the other ? or did the distance of the two pillaries boad any such distance in our present judgements ? but yet , o! o , never be such a distance in our affections ! but , herein at least ever be we a threefold coard , not easily broken . but the will of the lord be done , who is onely wise , and will cause all things to co-operate for good to them that love him . but brothers , we expected , that ( according to your own words , pag. 7. ) you would have acted the part of a moderator between us . but instead thereof we find you a judge , and that a severe one too ; but how justly , i leave to others to judge . for in your promised , or rather menaced postscript , which ( to forestall your readers with a prejudicate opinion of us ; and old piece of rhetoricke , as that of tertullus before felix , telling him of paul ; wee have found this man a pestilent fellow , and a mover of sedition , &c. which he was not able to prove , his best rhetoricall argument being calumnidre audacter , aliquid haerebit , calumniate boldly , some thing will sticke ) you both prefix , and for surenesse , affix to your booke ; you fasten upon us uncharitable dealing , fraud and jugglings of many of our pastors and ministers , as misleaders and troublers of church and state , &c. all which * ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) hard and harsh termes , wee can no lesse then spread before the lord the righteous judge . i now come to your first booke . and first for those two scriptures which you face your frontispice withall , i desire it may appeare to all men in the conclusion , whether you or i have the better right to them , 2 cor. 13. 8. and 1 thes. 5. 21. pag. 6. brother , that which you intreat of us , you shall finde of your brother ; onely give us leave in your owne words to intreat you to lay aside all passion , and all vaine-glory , and bitternesse , which not onely this your booke , but your threatned postscript breaths out against us . pag. 7. you methodize and modell your booke into two questions : first , concerning the government of the church , whether it be presbyterian dependent , or presbyterian independent : secondly , concerning gathering of churches . now for the first of these , before wee come to your arguments , give me leave to except against your termes , dependent and independent , whereupon as upon a foundation you state your question . and if the foundation be not sure , the superstructure cannot be secure . now brother , doe you set these two termes , dependent , and independent , at such odds , as if there were a great gulfe betweene them , never to come together , and become one ? you hold of dependent onely : we hold not onely of independent , but dependent also . i shall make this cleare : your church dependent is so called in a two-fold relation : first , because it depends for its forme of government upon the lawes of civill states , and so ( as the cha●●leon ) receives impressions of sundry formes , changeable according to the present condition of the civill power , whether protestant , or papist , christian , or antichristian ( as our brother hath set forth ) so as by this meanes , christs church and kingdome ; his spouse , that woman clothed with the sunne , and having on her head , a crowne of twelve starres , and the moone under her feete , should her selfe be turned into the moone , as being subject to continuall changes . secondly , because your church dependent , depends necessarily upon a combination of presbyters of many churches , as councels , synods , assemblies , classes , without whose counsell ( say you ) nothing is to be done in any particular church , of which more hereafter on the other side ; the churches which you call independent , are also dependent . first , they are not otherwise independent , then first , that they are not , nor ought ( in respect of doctrine , discipline , worship , church-government ) to depend upon humane lawes , canons , decrees , customes ; but onely upon christ and his lawes ; as wherein they assert and hold forth christs kingly office and government over them ; and doe affirme , that to set up humane formes of worship and church-government , unto which the consciences and soules of gods people must necessarily conforme and be subject , is a dethroning of the lord jesus christ , and a denying him to be the onely king of his church secondly , independent in this respect , because every particular visible church , rightly constituted according to the word of god , depends not directly and necessarily upon any other church or churches , as without whose jurisdiction ( call it presbyterian , or what you will ) it may not exercise all that power , which christ hath given to every particular church , as touching all the offices and ordinances thereof , and that in as ample manner , as if there were besides that one , no other churches in the world . and yet secondly , this church thus independent , is also dependent . for , as it depends absolutely upon christ , as the onely head of this body ; so as it is a member-church of the catholick , and a sister-church of all particular churches , with which it makes up one body , and one spouse of christ her head and husband : so it hath a mutuall dependence upon all true churches , for communion , for consociation , for consultation , for comfort , for support ; though alwayes saving and retaining to it selfe all those church-priviledges , which by christs charter are peculiar to every particular church , and body of jesus christ . and in case this particular church doe any act of censure upon any , who thereby shall thinke himselfe wronged , and shall addresse himselfe to other churches , by way of complaint , and they shall thereupon desire of that church an account of their proceedings therein , this church will not refuse , but as in christian duty bound , will to those churches render a reason of that , or any other their doings , if questioned , and lawfully required . and all this in a sweet and loving way , with meeknesse and feare , 1 pet. 3. 15. so as none is debarred of any such appeale . nor is any well constituted church of christ to be conceived so brutish , or so conceited of her selfe , as to thinke shee may not erre , or her selfe so wise , as in many difficult cases not to need the counsell of others , or so inflexible , as with the stoicks , sententiam mutare nunquam ; nullius rei poenitere ; never to change their minde or judgement , of nothing to repent , when convinced of an error . but what if one particular church will not , after all due meanes used , ( which yet no rationall man can imagine will ever come to passe ) hearken to the unanimous judgement and counsell of the other churches ? what is to be done ? surely they may upon just cause withdraw communion from that church , which , in that case , is the highest censure the churches can proceed to . and if the party aggrieved complaine to the civill magistrate , the church being called is accountable to the power . thus have i plainely , clearely , and fully , as i conceive , stated these two termes dependent and independent : whereby is sufficiently cleared to the view of all unpartiall judges , not possessed with prejudice , our dependent independency , or independent dependency , from your manner of stating . and for your simile ; wherein you propound it for better understanding ( as you say ) it halteth down-right of all foure , as being altogether ab-simile , and heterogeneous , of another nature . there is a vast disproportion between a civill government , and ecclesiasticall : the one established upon mans lawes , the other on gods ; the one various , and variable , according to severall civill states , kingdomes , and lawes : the other one and the same , ( or should be , if right ) in all the churches of the saints , having one rule , one law to walke by , immutable : and , brother , for your paralleling of your many severall congregations in one citie , or one division , or hundred , or within such a circuit , with a great corporation , as of london , where is one lord major , and aldermen and common councell , and so reducing so many churches into one corporation , as so many companies making upone citie : i suppose you meane not that one provinciall , with his diocesans , and priests under them , should make up this parallel . but this of necessitie you must doe , if you will have all the congregations in their severall divisions , or weapontacks , to be governed by their severall presbyteries respectively . reason requires , that first you set up such presbyters over every one of your congregations , as may be for the greatest part of them good , pious , learned , orthodox : or otherwise , if the greater party be malignant , and ill affected , prophane and haters of the power of godlinesse , they will over-vote the good party ; and so what a hard yoake will you put upon the necks of all such , as be truly godly , when they shall be cast out by a malignant parochiall congregation ? and going to complaine to your presbytery , they shall finde as cold comfort , as formerly they have done in the prelates consistory . but there will be a better care had of placing good presbyters . but brother , let us first see it , that so your presbyterian government may shew us a face the more amiable , and lesse formidable to all truly godly , and most conscientious men . but if you cannot doe this , whither shall the poore soules goe , which live under a prophane presbyter , or one that admits all sorts tag rag to the lords table , with whom godly soules can no more converse , then with heathen ; and much lesse at that holy ordinance , where they must be made companions with such kinde of saints , as job would not set with the dogs of his flocke : and if any whose conscience is not so strong to digest such hard bits , as others of the common multitude are , who either see no difference at all between the precious and the vile ; ( but account all alike saints at least , when but at the sacrament ) or have such sepulchre-wide throats , as they can swallow a camell , when a tender and more narrow conscience is apt to be choaked with every gnat : what shall this poore soule doe ? doth he rather withdraw from the ordinance , then he can endure to see it so prophaned , and so partake with the prophaners ? then he heares , a schismaticke . now if you have not a good presbytery , where shall he goe to complaine ? he may goe and appeale higher , you will say . and what if the higher the worse ? good brother , either provide the people of the land an honest godly presbytery , that may be as so many angels to gather out of christs kingdome every thing that offends : or else let there be a tender care of tender consciences , and some provision made for them , that they may not be scandalized , by being forced to be the companions of the scandalous . and therefore brother , you that professe so much solicitous care to poore bodies , let some drops of your charity fall upon their soules . and at the least , and last extremity , call in that postscript of yours , and suppresse it in the presse , that it may never see the sunne ; as wherein you proscribe all those , that are not of your dependent presbytery : for you tell us , it is to come forth a fortnight hence , in the which it will be proved , that it is the duty of all christian magistrates , parents , masters of families , and all such as truly feare god , to yeeld their hand for the suppressing of heresies , and all novelties in religion , if they really desire the glory of god , &c. and what you meane by your heresies and novelties in religion , is obvious to all by this your booke already come forth , independency is heresie , and novelty in religion , and what not , that nought is ? now did ever proceed out of the mouth of a quondam-martyr , and one newly brought out of a balefull prison , such a fiery breath as this ? oh brother , remember thy selfe , and repent ; and let the world know , that thou hast made a better use of afflictions , then so fiercely to run on in such a course , as to wreck the malignity of a prison upon thy best friends , the seed of whose love , so liberally sowne upon thee and thine , expected another-gates harvest , then nettles , bryars , and thornes . but you bring the scripture for you . come on , brother , let you and me try it out by the dint of this sword . and truly , i shall by the helpe of my god make no long worke of it . you spend above eleven sheets , wherein you have woven sundry long threaden arguments , to measure out your dependent presbytery , as holding parallell with the line of scripture . now you must pardon me , if i shall assay ( according to an old proverbe ) with one stroake of phocions hatchet , to cut in two the long thread of your alcibiadian fluent and luxuriant rhetorications . for answer . first , let me aske you a question : whether those many congregations you so call , you doe not understand to be so many distinct , and particular intire church-bodies , or churches respectively . if they be , tell us , if each of these churches be 〈◊〉 its prime and proper notion an intire church , without or before it be united in such a presbyterian combination , and government , as you speake of . and if so , whether it be de esse , or de bene esse , of the being , or onely well-being of each particular church , so to be united , and combined into a church-collective , of many churches into one . if you say , it is of the being of a church , to be yoaked with other churches , as into one , then what being had that church in abrahams family , seeing there were then no other churches in the world , but that ? and if that were extraordinary , ( as perhaps you will say ) then say i , when churches are multiplied , and combined into one , whether is this church collective dependent , or independent ? if dependent , then not an entire church , but subordinate unto , or depending upon some greater assembly . but come we to the highest of all , a generall counsell of all the churches in the world : is this now , a church dependent , or independent ? if independent , then there may be a church independent in the world ; and so the first particular church in the world , was no lesse an independent church , in reference to other churches . and if all churches in one oecumenicall councell , as one church , be dependent , then whereupon dependent ? or is it a dependent on it selfe ? that were blasphemy to say it . whereon then ? surely on the scripture or nothing . all churches then are dependent upon the scripture necessarily : not so necessarily one church upon another , whether particular or generall . ergo , all particular churches being not necessarily dependent one upon another , nor one upon many , but absolutely dependent upon the scripture for their ultimate or finall resolutions , are no lesse independent upon other churches ; because all the churches in the world put together , cannot of themselves give forth an infallible oracle ; as to say , this wee command to be beleeved and observed . this is antichrists voyce , volumus & jubenius . the church , or churches may shew their reasons from scripture , and labour to perswade , but cannot binde them upon faith or conscience ; this the holy ghost and scripture can onely doe . but i come briefly to your arguments , whereby you would prove your classicall presbyterian government , and so upward . the patterne hereof you take from the christian church at jerusalem . hereof many arguments , or rather words , and tantologies you multiply , and toyle your selfe and vex your reader withall , which you might have reduced to one . it is in summe , this : in jerusalem were many christian congregations , and all these made but one church , and so were governed by one presbytery . but that church at jerusalem , being the prime apostolicke church , is a patterne for all succeeding churches : ergo , all church-government ought to be regulated by that , and consequently by a presbytery over many congregations . for as for your indefinite enumeration of those multitudes baptized by john baptist , and by christs disciples , we take no notice of them , unlesse formed into a church , or churches : but following the expresse scripture , the first formed church wee finde in act. 2. which though consisting of five thousand , yet it was one intire particular church , and not churches ; and they continued daily {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , with one accord in one place together , ( ver. 2. ) and in the temple , ( ver. 44. 46. ) growing from a hundred and twenty ( act. 1. 15. ) to three thousand more , ( chap. 2. 41. ) and then in all five thousand ( chap. 4. 4. ) and all these but one church , which assembled together to heare the word in the temple ; and though they wanted a convenient place so spacious , as wherein to breake bread , or receive the lords supper all together , so as they were constrained to sever themselves into divers companies , in severall private houses to communicate , yet this severing was not a dividing of the church into so many distinct formall churches , or church-bodies , being but so many branches of one and the same particular church ; which though you call so many congregations , yet properly so many churches they were not . and therefore you never read , the churches at or in jerusalem , but , the church at jerusalem . and this no nationall church neither , witnesse those churches in judea , gal. 1. 22. whereupon i answer to your argument ; and first to your proposition . i deny that those congregations you name , are so many churches , properly so called , having their distinct officers and members , united into one church-body respectively . this i put you to prove . and without proving it , your 11 or 12 shee●… spent about this argument prove to be meere wast paper . and for your assumption , that the church at jerusalem , as being a prime apostolicke church , is therefore a patterne for all succeeding churches , and therefore for a classicall presbytery over many churches ▪ you must first prove your proposition , as before , that there were many churches in jerusalem constituted in their distinct formes , and bodies . secondly , it being no more , then one entire particular church ( and not any diocesan , or provinciall church , or the presbytery thereof classicall , ( as you would beare us in hand ) it is a patterne for all particular churches in succeeding ages ; and yet ( by your favour ) not so perfect a patterne , as no apostolicke church besides it should also come in , to make up the patterne compleat . for we are necessarily to take all the churches in the new testament together , to make up one entire & perfect church patterne . for in the church at jerusalem , we finde election of officers , but we finde not expressed that part of discipline ; for casting out of corrupt members , as in the church of corinth , and so in the rest . for the churches were not brought forth to full perfection in one day . their very constitution had a graduall growth . the church at jerusalem had not at first deacons , till there was a necessitie ; and the largenesse of the church required seven deacons ; which is no patterne for every church to have seven deacons . the summe is , to make up a compleat patterne , not onely the church at jerusalem , but that of corinth , of ephesus , those of gal●tia , that of philippi , and the rest ; are to be conferred together , that each may cast in its shot to make up the full reckoning , that so what is not expressed in one , may be supplied by the rest , to make one entire platforme . for the scripture consists of many books , as so many members in one body ; one member cannot say to another , * i have no need of thee . againe , the church at jerusalem , if it must be a patterne for all other churches , then in this , that all other churches must be subject to some one church , because ( act. 15. ) things in question were there debated , and determined , and sent to other churches to be observed . but for as much as that church at that time in those things was infallibly guided by the holy ghost , wherewith the apostles there were inspired , in which respect their resolutions were with authoritie , it pleased the holy ghost and us , ( that which no particular church since the apostles could ever say ) it followeth that the church then at jerusalem remaines not in all things a patterne for other churches ; for a patterne must be in all things imitable , and perfect . lastly , for appeales , so much agitated , and pressed , i have said enough before , and elsewhere ( as in my vindication ) to vindicate the right use of that in point of church matters . and so i passe briefly from your first question to your second ; which is concerning the manner of gathering of churches , and admitting members and officers : viz : whether ministers of the gospel may , out of already congregated assemblies of believers , select and choose the most principall of them into a church-fellowship peculiar unto themselves , and admit of none into their societie , but such as shall enter in by a private covenant , and are allowed of by the consent and approbation of all the congregation . this is your generall stating of your question ; and out of the wombe thereof , there doth issue a numerous brood , no lesse then six queries , or if you will ( to usurpe your owne usuall expression ) so many sucking questions , hanging at the dugs of their damme , your generall question . for answer to all in their order : but before i answer , let mee premise thus much : brother , i well see ( and that without spectacles ) that among all those independents whom you so familiarly hurle stones at , and cast up dust , yea durt in their faces , i am not the least object in your eye , as by many palpable passages in your booke doth appeare . and therefore i shall crave leave , that i may have the favour to represent and personate all those my brethren the ministers , whom giantlike you revile and challenge , and warre against under the name of independents , as taking this take upon my selfe alone , in answering this your question about gathering of churches . first then to your generall stating of the question . you say , it concernes the manner of gathering . do you imply here the lawfulnesse of the matter of gathering , by questioning onely the manner ? your words may seeme to import so much . but i will not quarrell a word . i come to your question , viz. whether ministers of the gospel , &c. surely if any , then ministers of the gospel may gather churches : and that for two reasons ; first , because by the gospel , & the ministry thereof , churches are gathered to christ . secondly , because we read , that the apostles ▪ and other ministers of the gospel have by their ministry gathered churches . therefore no question , but if any , then ministers of the gospel may gather churches to christ . i , but out of already congregated assemblies of believers , to select and choose the most principall of them . indeed this is something to purpose . but tell me , brother ▪ who is it ▪ that doth this ? you apply it to us all , and to me in particular . but i deny that i so doe , and i dare say the like for others . and can you prove all those parishes , out of which churches are so gathered , as you say , to be assemblies of believers ? but they all professe to be christians . true , so doe all papists . ergo , are all popish parishes , assemblies of believers ? so as if ministers of the gospel should by their preaching convert sundry papists of severall popish parishes to become a church of christ , should they gather such a church out of so many assemblies of believers ? but ( say you ) wee gather churches out of assemblies of believing protestants . why brother , doe you not know this to be a time of reformation ? and have we not all taken the solemne covenant to reform our selves and others , according to the word of god ? and to endeavour to our power , to extirpate and roote out all popery , prelacy , idolatry and superstition out of this kingdome ? and the time of this first gathering , was it not then , when the old service and ceremonies were in use ? and who hath gathered these churches ? wee . who are we that you should thus charge us ? as peter and john answered , why looke yee so on us ? so , why doe yee impute that to us , which is onely to be attributed to the gospel of the grace of god , whereby our very protestants are wonne from their old superstitions , and will-worship , and from under the yoake of humane formes in the matters of christs kingdome ? so as when they heare , christ is the onely king of his kingdome , the onely law-giver of his church , and his word the onely law and rule of all church-government , and all this demonstrated in the word of god , which they have taken a solemne covenant in all things to follow : doe you reproach us , for being a people who are ready to obey christ , so soone as wee heare of him , who alone is to be heard in all things , whatsoever he shall say unto us ? and for churches , doe you , brother , limit churches to parishes ? what if you finde so many hundred parishes in england , whose inhabitants both ministers and people are all malignants , or popishly-affected ? will you have those parishes to be so many churches , and those popish malignants , so many believers ? were not this to set up ecclesiam malignantium , or churches malignant , which are no way militant , but against the power of religion , and the peace of the civill state ? or if there be found some one or two in each of those parishes , that have the love of christ in them , and are truly godly , and whose soules are grieved to communicate with sodome : will you not allow god to send an angel , his messenger , with a word to call them forth ? and doe you not know , that the ancient church of the jewes was then a church , when the apostles by their preaching gathered a church out of it ? a christian church out of the jewes synagogue ? i , say you , but we gather christian churches out of christian churches . surely then it is gods word that calleth christians to come into a more reformed church-way , out of wayes more corrupt and lesse reformed . nor doe wee separate from the churches as christian , as you call them , but from their corruptions , * separating the precious from the vile , as from something antichristian . but you will say , now are the parishes and churches purged , no service-book now , no hierarchy , no such thing , and yet wee select and choose the most principall into a church-fellowship peculiar unto our selves . to which i answer : though the service-book , hierarchy , &c. be taken away , yet the parishes are not so purged of them , but that most mens hearts are still hankering after that egyptian-service and task-masters . again , all those that professe to be come off from those things , yet are not resolved what religion to take to , but are ready to take up ( as themselves say , and do ) what religion men will set up over them , not looking to what the scripture prescribes and commands ; so as it remains , that those who embrace the word , and preferre christs decrees before mans , are those principall men , whom not we , but the word of christ doth call forth , select and choose voluntarily to joyn in church-fellowship ; and this not so peculiar to our selves , but that when a right reformation is set up in the severall places where they dwell , they may enjoy the pure ordinances there , as i have shewed in my vindication . and if you examine who they be that have joyned themselves unto the lord , either of this parish , or of other , you shall find them to be for their outward estate , ( in comparison of others ) none of those principall men you speak of . but say you , wee admit of none into our society , but such as shall enter in by a private covenant . now the very name of covenant is become a bug-bear to many . but it is mightily mistaken , as i have shewed in my vindication : for it is nothing else , but a declaration of a free assent , and voluntary agreement to walk in the wayes of christ with the church , whereof they are members , and to perform all service of love one to another , submitting themselves to the order and ordinance of christ , in that church respectively . so that it is not the name of covenant that is so terrible , but the order of church-communion ; and this to those only , that having used to walk without a yoak ( as the scripture calls sons of belial ) love not to come under the yoak of christ , then which to a willing bearer nothing is more easie and sweet . but lastly , you say , they must be allowed of by the consent and approbation of all the congregation . and ( i pray ) what harm in that ? nay , doth it not stand with very good reason , that they who are to walk together , should first be agreed together ? as amos 3. 3. can two walk together , except they be agreed ? if therefore any one of the congregation can object any thing , as a just cause of non-admittance of a member , he ought to shew it , not only for his own peace , but the peace of the church . therefore , to object such things as these , doth it argue a spirit favouring of such a holy humility , as becomes those who affect the society of saints ? and when the whole church gives approbation in this kind , it is both to the church and the member admitted , a comfort , and withall , a discharge of their duty in a provident care for preventing inconveniences and scandals ; seeing it is easier for a guest to be kept out , then to be cast out . thus much of your question in generall ; which because i have met with it in the severall branches , i shall need to say the lesse to those queries which you derive from it . and in truth they are rather captions then queries ; and the first is answered in my former stating of the question . for the second , to know those well , that are to be admitted , abundans ca●tela non nocet : in things weighty , we cannot be too wary ; nor do we so much look at circumstances in conversion , as the substance . the third , for the consent of the congregation , it is answered before : so also the fourth , about the covenant . the fifth , for the power of the keys , wee tie it not to womens girdles . the sixth , and last , i answer , that those churches , which are for matter and form , true churches , and are governed according to christs word , do set up christ as king upon his throne . and for such as are otherwise , let them consider , whether they do as they ought , set up christ as king upon his throne . you proceed , i have ( say you ) specified the things without any spirit of bitternesse . in deed , this your first book ( as we finde by tracing your steps in other tracts ) is a summary collection of what they have gone before you in , whose thread hath led you all the way through this maze : but when you come ( as in your postscript ) to minister your own dosis , and to show your self in your own element , there wee finde the main ingredient to be the very gall of bitternesse , which yet your first book is not altogether free of . pag. 101. you say , the apostles , and other ministers of the gospell were to receive all such as believed , and were baptized , and that upon the profession of their faith and repentance , without any further testimony of others , unlesse they had been formerly known to be open enemies , and then they were justly to be suspected , till they had given publique evidence by witnesse to the apostles and ministers of their true conversion , as concerning paul , acts 9. 26 , 27. now here i observe : 1. a notable contradiction to what you say , pag. 115. as gods command to all ministers was , that they should admit all such into the church , as believed and were baptized , upon their desiring it , without any confession , either private or publique . here i leave you to reconcile your own contradiction . vpon their profession , and without any confession . 2. i answer , that in these dayes of professed , and covenanted-for reformation , there is required the profession or confession of one speciall point of faith ▪ ( which in words ; none dare , but in practice most do deny ) touching christs kingly office , formerly suppressed by antichristian tyrannie , but now breaking forth from under the cloud in its native light , concerning his absolute , sole soveraignty over our consciences and churches , without dependence upon humane ordinances , or nationall lawes to prescribe such forms of church-government , as are most serviceable to the politicall ●nd● of severall states ; which point of faith is ( though not alwayes explicitly , yet ) implicitly confessed by all those , which ●ender themselves to be admitted into such churches , as are of a constitution most agreeable to the law and rule of christ . and withall , an implicit profession at least of their repentance is included , as having formerly lived under an antichristian government , and inventions of will-worship , all which is implicitly professed and repented of , by their very entrance into church-fellowship ; and so much the more is repentance herein needfull , because many , yea most of such conformists , if not all , have had their hands , lesse or more , either by acting , or assenting , or by silence and connivence in the persecution of those godly ministers and people , which stood out against that antichristian usurpation over their consciences , refusing conformity to their canons . so as in this case , you confesse , that our people ( formerly conformists , and now , for the greater part , but newly crope out of the shell of their bondage , being brought off from their old ceremoniall service , and this more by humane authority in generall so ordering , then of conscience ) ought not only to approve themselves by the profession of their faith , and repentance , but to have the testimony of others also , as having been formerly known to be either prest and sworn vassals , or voluntiers in the prelaticall militia , which what is it else , but a continuall war against the true church and kingdome of jesus christ ? but you adde ( pag. 102. ) that commission was delivered to the apostles and ministers of the gospel , as whose place only it was by the keyes to open and shut the doors of the church , and so to admit , or refuse , as they found men fitted or qualified , to be made members ; and this you labour to prove by the practice of john baptist . now , as for john baptist ( about whose gathering you have so bestirred your selfbefore , and to as little purpose ) you may observe , that those believers in christ then to come , according to the papists doctrine , were not formed into a christian church , or churches , as after christs resurrection the believers were . and when you come to visit those christian churches once constituted in their gospel-form by the apostles , you shall finde , that the power of admitting or rejecting , or casting out of members , was not in the apostles or ministers alone , but in the churches . for this , read 1 cor. 5. where the whole church of the saints in corinth , to whom paul wrote , were to cast out the incestuous person ; as also afterward upon his repentance , to re-admit him , 2 cor. 2. 6 , 7. this one instance is a sufficient president for all churches . but you alledge that of cornelius sending to joppa for peter , he sent not ( say you ) to the church of corinth ; true , and what then ? ergo , none but the minister of the gospel hath power to admit members . it is one thing to preach , and instrumentally to convert souls , which chiefly pertains to those that are called thereunto : but in the case of church-government , of admitting ▪ or casting out , it is otherwise . and here let peter himself ( whose words you alledge ) resolve us ; who , when the holy ghost so wonderfully fell on all them that heard the word , said , can any man forbid water , that these men should not be baptized , &c. which words imply , that ifany exceptions could have ben made , it was in those jewes present , to give forth their allegations , why those believing gentiles should not be admitted to become one church with the believing jewes . so as your observations thereupon fall to the ground ; as that , first , peter was sent to , and not the church ; and , secondly , peter commanded them to be baptized : again , this example was extraordinary in all the circumstances of it ; and when you have said all , you can conclude nothing . your instance of the eunuch , acts 8. 8. of lydia , acts 16. as many other , are meer extravagants . we speak of churches constituted , not of single converts , here and there one , not yet joynted into a particular church-body . i passe by your impertinent declamatious against different opinions in the same house . do you reconcile them ; for christ himself foretold of them , as wee shall tell you when wee come to your postscript ; which when i mention here , doth not your minde misgive you ? but of this in due place . and where you say , all that believe , and are baptized , are by gods command to be admitted , desiring it , without any confession , or covenant : but what if they do not believe aright ? what if they not only not believe , but deny and disclaime christs kingly prerogative ? and so , what if they stiffly maintain a most damnable and destructive herefie , which overthroweth a main principall and fundamentall of faith ? if such a one , as dr. bastwick with all his ●air flourishes of holinesse , should desire to be admitted into church-fellowship , being known to be an adversary to christs kingly government over his churches , according to the gospel : might not the doctors own words satisfie , in case of refusall ( pag 102. ) as having been formerly known for an open enemy and persecutor of the church , and so justly to be suspected , till publique evidence by witnesse given ? although it cannot be imagined that the ba●e desiring of admittance into church-fellowship could stand with the deniall , but necessarily implies a confession of christs kingly office in its highest degree . pag. 116. you tell us , that our gathering of churches hath no example in scripture , and as for christs disciples , they were all sent to gather in the lost sheep of the house of israel , they went not to gather in converted amongst converted men , &c. now wee cannot have a more pregnant and more warrantable example in all scripture then this , which you here alledge against us . christs disciples gathered christian churches out of the church of the jews ; nor can you deny , but the jews were a church , when the disciples gathered churches out of it . those churches in judea ( gal. 1. 22. ) were gathered out of the church of the jewes ; and that church of the jewes generally believed that the messias , or christ , was to come . and if they were a church when many being converted , were gathered out of it , then much more churches may be gathered out of nations or kingdomes of the world , though for their generall profession of christianity , every such nation or kingdome be respectively called a church , though the new testament knowes no such church , and then not of divine constitution , as that of the jews was , even when churches christian were gathered out of it . and brother , prove unto us , that such as you call a nationall church , is a church of divine institution ; shew us an example of a nationall church in all the new testament , otherwise you do but weave the spiders web . but wee ( say you ) gather converted men from among converted men , and so pick out of others folds and flocks the best and fattest sheep . this you do familiarly cast in our dish , and yet it is never the fatter . now in this wee may justly demand of you , to prove , that those whom you call converted men , from among whom wee gather churches , be indeed so converted as they should be , when as yet they come not up close to the rule of reformation , gods word , as thereby to endeavour the setting up of christ , without waiting on men , as without whom gods word is not a sufficient rule , and as on whom wee must necessarily depend for the form and law of reformation : and yet wee deny not but many such may be godly , though otherwise they are not as yet throughly convinced of this kingly government of christ , which we endeavour after ; nay , let me go a little higher ; for as much as this is an undeniable , yea , and prime principle in divinity , that the scripture is the only rule of faith , and of worship , and church-government , and this rule is no monopoly to one man , but that all and every man hath a power and priviledge to repair to this law and testimony , to do all things according to this word : and seeing wee have all bound our selves by solemn covenant to reform our selves , and those under our charge , according to the word of god ; yea , and every one to go before other in this reformation : tell mee now , brother , were it not a matter worth the while , for our reverend and learned assembly , seriously to take it into debate , whether the generall tying up of men , to wait necessarily on the synod for its finall resolution about church-government , be not an usurpation upon our christian liberty , and a diminution , at least of the authority and sufficiency of scripture , and so consequently be not a trenching upon a fundamentall heresie ; as also an inhibition , restraining every man in his place , ministers , masters , &c. from setting upon the work of reformation , and so necessitating a violation of our covenant , or a dangerous retarding of the work , bringing in a sleepy carelesnesse upon mens spirits , to inquire at gods oracle , and so preparing a way for blind obedience ; i leave to the consideration of the wisest . but in the interim , to return to your converts ; do you hold all them to be converts , from among whom churches are gathered ? do you not allow of a difference to be put ? are there not a number of both ignorant and scandalous , that are not fit to come to the lords table ? see the directory : or do you take the greatest number in england to be godly , and truly converted ? or are there not ( trow you ) many parishes in england , where , perhaps but a few true converts are to be found ? and how few ( in comparison ) truly godly and faithfull ministers are to be found for every parish , under who●e pastorall charge , two or three sheep may safely and comfortably feed among so many goats , yea , perhaps , wolves ? or do you make every parish to be a church ? you may do well herein to deal plainly with us , whether you would have so many inhabitants as are in every parish , to be so many communicants . for so it seems you would have it : for ( pag. 117. ) you say , in the churches of corinth , galatia , colosse , were many that walked disorderly , taught false doctrine and heresies , and made schismes ; yet the apostles did not bid the christians to separate themselves from the communion and assemblies of the saints , and from the ordinances , for these mens causes , &c. but you may know , those churches , though in part accidentally corrupt , yet were essentially , and in their originall constitution pure and holy churches ; and so were never your parochiall churches , they never had a right divine constitution , but meerly humane and politicall . and therefore all your argumentation a dispari , falls to ground , and beats it self into a meer spume . but ( pag. 118. ) you plead , such ministers and churches to be true , where the truth of christ is preached , received and professed . if you mean the whole truth of christ , it is well . but do not you know , that there are three speciall visible marks of a true visible church , the gospel purely preached , the sacraments duly administred , and discipline rightly practised ? all which marks together , the church of england ( for ought i know ) is yet to seek . for ( to speak nothing here of the materialls of a true particular visible church : as visible saints ; nor of the form of it , so many members united into one church-body and fellowship , according to the gospel , which you can handly shew us in any of your parochiall congregations ) i will only ask you , what particular visible church you are a member of ( you may choose what parish you please in england ) : next , i ask you , what discipline you have in that your church ; and whether a man complaining of you to your congregation , or to your minister , for wrongs done by you , and for your scandalous walking , he shall find so much discipline there as to convent you before them , and justly charging you for walking scandalously , to the great offence and shame of the very name of christian religion , you shall thereupon be brought under ecclesiasticall censure , so as to have the scandall removed , and the offence satisfied ? good now tell me , what church either parochiall , or classicall , i should go unto ? for , suppose i have a complaint against you , for which i demand satisfaction , at the least , so as by the means of your church-censure you may be brought to a contrite acknowledgement of the wrong you have done mee . but if you cannot shew me such a church in any of your parishes , b●… is it that you affirm * christ to be set up as king in his throne in mens hearts , swayed and guided by the scepter of his word and spirit in your parochiall congregations : when as you cannot shew us ( i say ) in any one of those congregations * the name and power of our lord jesus christ to be so set up , as authoritatively and judicially to deliver over to satan , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or otherwise condignly to censure such a one , as whose brother complains of to that congregation , for unsufferable wrongs , and most base and barbarous usage , unbeseeming a naturall heathen , much lesse a professed christian ? and here i challenge our brother for taking christs name in vain , when in stead of finding christ set upon his throne in their congregations , wee finde there no more but an image , such as michal had made up in stead of king david ; or as those , that in mockery , made of christ a pageant-king , stripping him , and putting on him a scarlet robe , and on his head a crown of thornes , and in his hand a reed , saluting him with , hail king of the jewes , with which title over his head they crucified him . and therefore those passages which ( page 118 , 119. ) he quotes of his brother ( though not named ) will stand good against their opposers ▪ the summe of which is this : that all that depend upon men for church-government , and not upon christ and his word alone , doe deny christs kingly government over consciences and churches : that all that receive not christs kingly office in the full extent of it , but after manifestation , doe reject it , are at the best converted but in part , and so in a worse condition , then those who though they believed , yet they had not so much as heard there was a holy ghost , but hearing , they received him : that such as refuse to be in covenant with christ , or to make profession or confession thereof before men , want their evidence of their being gods people , and so quantum in se , as much as in them lyeth , cut off their children from having interest in baptisme , the externall seale of the covenant . and therefore seeing such things are objected , how doth it concerne both ministers and people to looke to their evidences ? to omit his tedious tautologies all along ( being the bombast of the booke ) to pag. 124. there he saith , when the ministers of england teach this doctrine in their preachings and writings , how can they be truly said to deny , disclaime , and preach against christs kingly government over mens consciences and churches ? it were well if they did truly indeed preach it , which few or none of them doe . or if they doe truly preach it , why doe they not practise it , and perswade the people to depend upon christ for it , and not upon men ? but ( pag. 126. ) the ministers of england set up a presbytery after gods word . this you can never yet prove unto us , untill wee may see it . but the independents themselves are presbyterians ( say you ) and labour ●o set up a presbytery of their own . thus here , and all along you carry it with a torrent of words , and that is all . wee set up that presbytery , which wee finde in gods word , and none other . then ( pag. 127. ) you fall againe upon the strictnesse used in admission of members , which ( say you ) the apostles used not . but wee know , that all those who were admitted by them , did first make confession of their faith and repentance , as mat. 3. 6. acts. 2. 37. act. 19 18 , 19. act. 8. 37. and the apostles feared to receiv●paul , as their fellow-apostle , untill they had examined the truth thereof . and ( pag. 130. ) you charge us with making schismes , &c. surely we are commanded to separate our selves from all corruptions of the world , and humane inventions ; as 2 cor. 6. 16. acts 2. 40. and this , when a christian church began to be gathered out of that of the jewes . pag. 138. you inveigh against new truths , and new lights , as you every where nauseously call them : and say , where was it ever heard of , either in the christian or pagan world , that it was ever permitted to any minister or preacher , to have all the pulpits in any nation to preach a diverse doctrine to that whi●h is set up by authoritie , and such as tends to make a faction and division amongst the people ? i doe most assuredly beleeve , that there cannot the like precedent be produced . so you . no ? what say you of that precedent of the apostles , who in the temple daily preached a diversed doctrine , to that of the pharisees ? so of john baptist . so of christ . and this in judea , which was a parallel at least to a nationall christian church , onely that was originally founded upon divine institution , but this not so . and for the pagan world , what innumerable precedents are there , of preaching the gospel , and constituting of churches , even throughout the pagan world ? and all this divers to that which was set up by mans authoritie , whether jewish , or paganish . and as our brother here , so did the high priests in their counsells charge the apostles , saying , * yee have filled jerusalem with your doctrine . a new doctrine , a new truth , a new light . so act. 24. 5. tertullus , with his rhetoricke , being feed by the high priest and the elders , makes a declamation against paul , saying , wee have found this m●m●… pestilent fellow , and a mover of sedition among all the jewes throughout the world , and a ringleader of the sect of the nazarens . and this word nazarens , signifies the sect of saparatists , of whom the apostle is there maliciously marked , as the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ▪ the ring-leader . the like out-cry we have , act. 21. 28. men of israel , helpe : this is the man , that teacheth all men every where against the people , and the law , and this place , &c. nor want wee a pagan precedent , act. 19. 26 where diana's silver-shrine-maker , what a dust he raiseth in the whole citie , saying ; yee see and heare , that not alone at ephesus , but almost throughout all asia , this paul hath perswaded and turned away much people , saying , that they be no gods which be made with hands . thus you see paul , and the other apostles , and evangelists , found pulpits every where , both among the jewes and gentiles , though they preached a divers doctrine , to that set up by authoritie . and must christ have no other doctrine or church-government in the world , then that which is set up by the worlds authoritie ? surely , this is a new light indeed , if a light at all ; a new doctrine , diverse to that which christ hath set up by his divine authoritie . but this doctrine ( say you ) tends to make a faction and division among the people . and did pauls , and the apostles doctrine escape the scourge of this whip ? note all the places forecited , with many more throughout the new testament , and all ages , where the gospel in its purity and power is preached . but one thing more i must not passe , without a note . how doth our brother make good his exclamation : was it ever beard of either in the christian or pagan world , that it was ever permitted to preachers , to have all the pulpits in a nation to preach a divers doctrine , & c ? and is it so indeed ? have we all the pulpits in the kingdome ? i hope your brother t. e. by his pen and preaching , and you by your pen , will take an order for that , that wee shall not have all the pulpits , no nor any at all with your good will witnesse that late mis-●ule at your towne of colchester , upon your books , and t. e. his preaching . and therefore this may be placed among your grolleries . and for the jewish synagogues tolerated among the heathen , if we may not have the pulpits , good now envie us not our synagogues . be not worse to us , then the heathen were , and are , as you give us sundry examples , pag. ibid. 138. page 140 you call the people of the presbyterian independent congregation , a company of wild geese . but wee are not yet come to your postscript ; where pag. 14. you call them silly goslings following the old goose . yet here you acknowledge that the elders have oftentimes great abilities of wit , and scholarship , learning and eloquence : which in your postscript you universally strip them of , except onely two for breed . the rest of your booke to the end , being all along overgrowne with nettles , stinging upon every touch , and the sharper still , the neerer it drawes to the postscript , ( as , worse then * diotrephes , or the pope ▪ * most diabolicall tyranny , lording it over gods clergies , * fellows of gotham colledge , not knowing their prim●r in politicks , nor their catechisme in divinitie , and the like ) we gladly passe ove● untouched , as being all prickles , and no pith . onely one sharper then all the rest , i may not be unaware of , which you call , the weapon of the left hand , namely , the sword , which you would have the magistrate to take up to suppresse our brethren the independents ( as you style them ) calling that man a ninny , and a man unworthy to sit in counsell in any state , that should say with gamaliel , refraine from these men , for if their worke , or counsell be of god , yee cannot overthrow it , lest yee be found fighters against god ; and so let them goe on to doe mischiefe . for herein ( say you ) gamaliel spake neither as a wise man , nor as a christian . thus our brother drawing neere the end of this his booke , hath drawne it so low neere the bottome , that the very lees of it begin to run atilt , and that remaines , is reserved to be powred forth in the postscript . the postscript . this whole postscript is a very c●nto & farrago , or hodge-podge of invectives , sarcasmes , scurrilous scoffs , incendiary incentives to stirre up the state , and all sorts of people , to root out , and cut off all those that are of the independent way , as they call it . i shall onely note some of his passages all along , to prevent ( if it may be ) the nauseousnesse of the reader by brevitie . and first in his defence against calumnies , being in way of a preface to his postscript . page 2. they affirmed ( saith he ) that i was the greatest incendiary in the kingdome , and that they would prove it ; and page 4. they calumniate me as the greatest incendiary of the kingdome , which they accused me of before they had seene my booke ; and i have been freed from that reproach by both houses of parliament , who adjudged all my sufferings unjust . answ. but now they may bring your booke for a proofe and witnesse , whether you be not one of the greatest incendiaries in the land . and for this i shall quote but two places , as two witnesses for confirmation hereof . the first is in your preface , pag. 28. they ( alwayes meaning the independents ) have the sword now in their hand , and they thinke their party strong enough to encounter any adverse and opposing party , and they professe they care not how soone they come to cutting of throats , and speake of nothing but the slanghtering and butchering of the presbyterians . and therefore there is just cause given us to thinke we may expect better quarter from the very enemies , then from the independents . the second witnesse is ( postscript pag. 45. ) that they were all resolved to have the liberty of their consciences , or else they would make use of their swords , which they have already in their hands . now these two witnesses of your owne , want but a judge , judicially to pronounce sentence , whether these words be not of an incendiary nature , and that in a high degree . for who so blind , as doth not cleerly see these fiery flashes and flames to fly in the face of that army , which god hath honoured with many crownes of admirable victories , both at yorke , at nasby , and at lamport , with the recovery of leicester , bridgewater , bath , &c. so as god hath made this despised army the preservative of citie and countrey , the * repairer of the breach , the restorer of the paths to dwell in . but doe they professe the butchery of the presbyterians ? produce them ; bring your witnesses . these words are not to be borne . but i leave the judgement thereof to the wisdome and justice of the parliament , whose former freeing of you , extends not to cleare your words from being incendiary . and further to discover your spirit against those worthies in the army , you goe about to eclipse the glory of that famous victory at marston m●ore . for , speaking contemptuously of it , you say , some of the independents stood to it in the battle of yorke , when other of them run away ; for they ran as well as others ; and if they be not lyers , all the other independents had run away too , and left the field , if they had known what had happened in the other parts of the army . so you , with many other words of elevation , and slighting that party , by whose noble prowesse , and undaunted courage , god was pleased to give the victory , and even then when a great body of the army deserted the field . and whereas you say , they saw not the flight , else they would have fled too for company , if ( say you ) they be not lyers ; or if you say true . but i can produce those that were actors in that battle , and are no independents , that affirme , there was no running away at all , of those whose valour you so vilifie ; yea , though they did perceive how the matter went with some , as when a whole body flies , a thing with no great difficulty to be discerned . the rest of your vilifications so much exaggerated upon these men , are so nauseous , as every ingenuous reader will loath them . and notorious is that you say , as by experience , i know not any independent in england ( two onely excepted ) that doe not as maliciously and impla●ably hate the presbyterians , as the mortallest enemies they have in the world . now surely were all the presbyterians in england of your spirit , though the independents would not maliciously hate you , as presbyterians , yet cause you would give them sufficient to beware of you , as of their mortallest enemies in the world . and you boldly conclude , saying ; it is a meere faction , and the most pharisaicall , proud , envious , and malicious sect , that ever sprung up ; doing all out of an arrogant faction ; as cunning as gypsies , &c. now the lord rebuke the rayling rabshakees . pag. 4. he commends the kings cavaliers for brave gentlemen ; and he found more favour ( which he doth ever acknowledge for a singular courtesie ) then ever he found from protestant gaolers . was it that you discovered unto them some of that bitternesse of spirit against the independents , or some courtly compliance with papists , preferring them before independents or protestants , that made those popish cavaliers so much to applaud you ? but doe the independents accuse your booke , as worthy to be burnt by the common hangman , and that you are crased in your braine ? surely , there is so much fire in the bowels of your booke , ( as in the trojan horse ) that a wonder it is , it hath not all this while set it selfe on fire , & with it selfe ( like that tongue in james 3. ) the whole frame of nature . and for your braine , you may doe well to use your physicall inspection . page 7. neither have i ( say you ) forgot , that i was a sufferer , or am now a persecutor of the saints , as they calumniate mee . it were well if you would forget & forgoe to be a persecutor of the saints , and that upon your repentance god would forgive you , as those saints are ready to doe . there is no greater persecution , then that of the tongue and pen , sharper then swords and speares . no sorer persecution then esaus scoffs , and the jewes tongue-smitings . but most transcendent from a brother , a companion in tribulations , a familiar friend . et tu brute ? and yet all your scoffs and hard speeches , and bitter reproachings of those , whom you must needs confesse to be saints , will not amount to the least item of persecution . that were pitie . what thinke you of the like speech the late prelate of canterbury used in his * booke to the king ? god forbid ( saith he ) that i should perswade persecution in any kinde , or practise it in the least . did this protestation ( trow you ) cleare him from being a notorious , yea , unparalleld persecutor ? witnesse both your eares and mine . but you doe but oppose the saints heresies and novelties in religion . but must that needs be heresie , which you account heresie ? or that noveltie , which appeares so to those that measure things rather by custome , then truth ? and doe you not no lesse oppose , vilifie , disgrace , jeare , and scoffe at their persons ? doe you not call them * beasts ? * grolls ? puffoists ? wild geese ? old geese ? a company of jugglers ? sticklers against parliament and presbytery ? a generation of cunning and crafty jugglers ? cunning deceivers ? and fighters against god ? violaters of all the lawes of god and nature ? the most dangerous sect that ever yet the world produced ? a company of ratts among joyn'd stooles ? despisers of magistracy ? a generation of men , not worthy to give guts to a beare ? moone-calves ? all the independents put together , have not so much learning as any one of a thousand other ministers ? a wheele-barrow ( such as they trundle white-wine-vinegar on ) fitter for them then a coach ? stirring up all along magistrates and people to cut them off ? making them odious to the scots ? speaking nothing but daggers , and daring ? and what not ? now is all this no opposing of the persons of those you call independents ? to conclude all : you tell us a story of some that fight against their christian brethren ; and to that end in the frontispices of their books set downe christs words , mat. 10. 34 , 35 , 36. thinke not that i am come to send peace on the earth ; i came not to send peace , but a sword , &c. well : what of this ? out of which words , misunderstood ( say you ) they would perswade the people , and make them believe , that they have good warrant and ground to fight against their christian brethren , for the maintenance of their owne whimsies . but brother , who is this you speake of ? who hath done thus ? they ? what they ? you put it in the plurall , in their frontispices . you know , dolosus v●rsatur in universalibus . but is it in any more then one onely frontispice ? and have more then one done it ? and what one ? you describe him ( pag. 44. ) as not knowing his name , but one who is no novice , younker , and fresh-water souldier , but a grave man with a great white basket-hilted beard . why , brother , what needed all these periphrases and circumlocutions ? you might much more honestly , ingenuously , and candidly have said , my brother burton , then thus slily and disgracefully to take him by the beard , or serpent-like , to come behind him , and bite him by the heele . but this is not all . how comes it , that you fasten upon your brother such a false glosse , as that he should perswade the people , and make them believe , that from christs words , they have good warrant and ground to fight against their christian brethren ? brother , i must needs here challenge you of extreame violation , not onely of brotherly charitie , but even of the lawes of common humanitie . doe you ( out of no other ground but meere malice , as all the world must needs judge ) hatch a cockatrice-egge , a senselesse , whimsie in your own braine , and then lay your dead childe by mee , and take my living childe from mee , as you have done , in framing your own false sense , and putting it for mine , and taking my true sense , and making it your owne ? brother , what 's become , i say not of your brotherhood , but of your manhood ? or did you thinke to cover your selfe with your owne cobweb , that the palpable nakedness of your shiftless and shameless affront should not be seene ? surely , this is enough , not onely to discover the hollow of your heart , but the shallow of your braine , and to bring in the verdict of the whole universe , that you are a man , not onely whose heart is divided , but whose head is , &c. salve it as you can . now the lord jesus christ reprove you for this , and give you repentance for this your more then unnaturall dealing , that i may not say diabolicall , certainly not christian , even your best friends being judges . and for the grollery and dotage you put upon your brother , ( ibid. and pag. 45. ) as abusing the scripture , when your self most grossely abuse both it and him ; assure your self , your brother is not yet come to that dotage , but for all your vauntings on your part , and vilifying of his , he dare , through the help of christ , deale with dr. bastwick hand to hand , as neither admiring your learning , nor envying your roman buff , wherein your chief strength most lyeth , except in your scoffing , scurrilous , malicious bitter biting ; yea , bloody language , in which faculty , as facile princeps , you do so tripudiate and glory . but in your last book , which you style ( but how justly ) a just defence , &c. you would seem to teach us another rule to walk by , which it seems you had not then learned , when you writ your postscript : we ought not ( say you ) per latus unius totam gentem perstringere ▪ you tel the liev. colonel , that he should not have condemned the whole councel for a few , but should have singled them out , and by name have aspersed them ▪ and why did not you then rather call me by my name , as your brother burton ( as our brother prynne hath done ) then to hale me out by my great white basket-hilted beard , as some hideous monster , or ridiculous spectacle to the world ? and whereas ( ibid. ) you adde , that you have written nothing in your books against the independents , wherein you can be convinced of a lie : for ( say you ) i write nothing in my books against the independents , but what upon my own knowledge i can affirm to be true , yea , depose it too . now to go no further then this one instance of your dealing with mee ( aliâs your brother ) in fathering upon mee such a damnable and diabolicall glosse , being the spurious brat of your own brain ; what say you ? do you know it of your own knowledge to be so , that because i set that scripture in the front of my book , therefore my meaning was , hereby to perswade the people , and make them believe , that they have good warrant and ground to fight against their christian brethren for the maintenance of their own whimsies ? they be your own words , and you may take the whimsies in to boot . now , did i ever so perswade the people , or make them believe so ? nay , i will put it to your own conscience ( as hoping you have so much left ) whether in your conscience you can so much as once imagine , that your brother could ever have the least thought that way , or the least word tending thereunto ; wherein i challenge that , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the accuser of the brethren himself , whose scholar i wish not you to be . as for that other passage of your said book ( pag. 39. ) to let passe many other ; as touching your independent-pastor , it is as false as slie , do you and your reverend brother try it when you will . an appendix . wherein is touched the main point of difference between the two parties , classicall or nationall , and congregationall : our brother , mr. william pryn , whose latter books ( truth triumphing , &c. and a fresh discovery , &c. ) i have meerly ( god is my record ) out of tendernesse to the present state of things , forborn to answer , hath sundry times in those books objected principally those words in my vindication , concerning christs kingly office over the churches and consciences of his people : as in truth triumphing , pag. 112 , 113. and in his fresh discovery , pag. 4. in these words , mr. henry burton , in his vindication of churches , commonly called independent , &c. the church is a spirituall kingdome , whose only king is christ , and not man ; it is a spirituall republique , whose only law-giver is christ , and not man : a spirituall house , whose only builder and governour is christ : a spirituall corporation , whose only head is christ , and not man . no man , or power on earth , hath a kingly power over this kingdome ; no earthly law-giver may give lawes for the government of this republique ; no man can , or ought , to undertake the government of this communion of saints ; no humane power or law may intermeddle to prescribe rules for the government or form of this spirituall house , not covncels , not senates . this is christs royall prerogative , which is uncommunicable to any , to all the powers on earth . he addes my words , pag. 60 , 61. wee challenge you to shew us any parliament , councel , synod , ever since the apostles , that could , or can say thus , it seemed good to the holy ghost and us , so to determine controversies of religion , to make and impose canons to bind all men , &c. shew this to us at this time , and wee will obey . but if you cannot , as you never can , never let any man presse upon us that scripture , that synod , ( acts 15. ) which hath no parallel in the whole world ; and so is no precedent or pattern for any councels , synods , parliaments . thus our brother sees down the words , here and there with capitalls , as if so many capitall crimes . but the worst of all is , that he ranks them under the head of his first section , containing divers seditious , scandalous , libellous passages against the authority and jurisdiction of parliaments , synods , and temporall magistrates in generall , in ecclesiasticall affaires , in the late writings of severall independent new-lights , and firebrands ; so runs the title of the section , under which hee marshals those my words , as if christ could not be sole king , lord , and law-giver over his own spirituall kingdome in the soules and assemblies of his saints , but this doctrine must needs be seditious , scandalous , and the writers thereof libellous , against civill authority , yea , firebrands , and what not ? how more equall was the heathen emperor domitian , though the author of the second persecution , who though he laboured utterly to extirpate and extinguish all the naturall kindred of christ , because hee heard that christ was a king , fearing thereby the overthrow of his empire ; yet understanding afterward , by two of christs neerest kinsmen brought before him , being but poor men , and who got their living by hard labour in husbandrie , how that christ was a king indeed , but his kingdome was not of this world , but heavenly : the emperor hereupon , ( as the story saith ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ceased the persecution against the church , by calling in his imperiall decree . i wish our brother would more seriously consider , not only of this famous example of an heathen emperour , but also upon what sound reason it is grounded : as namely , upon such a distinct specificall difference between these two kingdomes , the celestiall and the terrestriall , as that in no sort they may be confounded , or compounded into one terrene kingdome , unlesse you will set up a papall power , an harmophrodite-government , with ecce duo gladii hîc , behold here two swords , which the pope caused to be carryed before him in solemn procession the two first dayes of his new erected jubilee . and for my challenge alledged by him , it stands good still , till hee can prove those words , in the end of his truth triumphing , true , where your words are , we cannot but in christian charity expect and believe , that all the assembly and parliament resolve on , may have inscribed on its front , it seemed good to the holy ghost and vs . and then again , you must prove your reason good , whereupon you inferre this conclusion ; namely , because there be in the parliament and assembly , at least some true nathaniels and stephens , filled with the holy ghost , and so many armies of prayers in the spirit daily sent up to heaven , to bring down that spirit of truth upon them . but can a few , at least some nathaniels , among so many , carry the matters by vote , if they be many that contra-vote ? you know things go sometimes in councels , rather by number then weight , rather by tale , then truth . i doubt , whether if the true nathaniels and zealous stephens should bear the sway , it would not well please , at least our brother bastwicks palate , who altogether condemneth gamaliel and his counsell , whereby hee perswaded and swayed the whole synedrion to refrain from peter and john , for peaching christ , saving only that they escaped not a scourging . for further answer to my dear brother , i shall forbeare till a fitter season . in the mean time , i shall conclude with the words of my brother bastwick , which hee delivers as the confession of the faith of the church of england , concerning christs kingly office ; and so consequently of his own faith . that jesus christ is the only and sole king , and governour of the whole universe , to whom all power in heaven and earth is given , matth. 28. but more especially of his church , who by god himselfe was set king over his holy mountain , psal. 2. 6. and that hee is king of righteousnesse , hebr. 7. the king eternall , isai. 9. the king of kings , and lord of lords , apoc. 17. and that he doth by his mighty power and wisdome , uphold and govern all things , but with a more peculiar care , and a more speciall manner preserve and defend his church , 1 tim. 4. 10. as that which hee hath purchased with his precious blood , and by his power redeemed out of the captivity and slavery of satan ; and that he is the head of his church , which is the body , who infuseth life into it ; righteousnesse , peace , joy , happinesse , and all the graces of wisdome and knowledge of god with certainty and assurance of his love ; and that his kingdome and empire is a spirituall and heavenly kingdome , no terrene and fading monarchy , joh. 18. 38. luke 1. 33. and is upheld and governed only by the scepter of his spirit and word , and not by the authority , vertue or wisdome of any humane power . thus dr. bastwick , and that after all his bitter reproaches cast upon his independents , who hang all that which he calls independency upon this sole hinge ; namely , that christs kingdome and empire , is a spirituall and heavenly kingdome , no terrene and fading monarchy ; and is upheld and governed only by the scepter of his spirit and word , and not by the authority , vertue or wisdome of any humane power . now if dr. bastwick will hold to his words and writing , he must needs confesse , that christ is no titular or pageant prince ( as before ) but reall and indeed : and therefore his kingdome is not to be governed according to the various and variable laws and customes of earthly kingdomes , common-wealths , countries ; but by the only scepter of his spirit and word ; otherwise the spirituall kingdome and the temporall must be confounded together , and become one kingdome , and then must either the spirituall become terrene and transitory , or else the temporall become eternall , and so make up one babylan , roma aetern● , confusion and blasphemy . and for a close , to satisfie my brother prynnes question , what i mean by so much asserting christs kingly office , as sole head , governour , law-giver of his churches , i mean , hee is the sole immediate king . and the proofs are from solid scripture , the sole rule of faith : as isai. 8. 20. and 29. 13. hos. 5. 11. matth. 15. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. mar. 7. 7. and our brother confesseth these scriptures but in part , by joyning thereto the laws and customes of kingdoms and common-weals , as a partiall rule , if not rather paramount to the sacred , canon ; as rome acknowledgeth the scripture to be the rule of faith , but partiall , joyning thereto her own traditions ; and so ● thereby , as the pharisees of old , make the word of god of no effect , through humane traditions , lawes , decrees , customes , manners of men , prince and people , protestants and papists , as well under queen mary and her parliament , as under queen elizabeth and hers ; and so regis ad exemplum : as the prince and pope , or state is affected , well or ill , christs kingdome , must chameleon-like , change both complexion and constitution . and if this satisfie not my brother , let him be pleased to reade over my vindication once again , wherein he may cleerly see , how the scripture all along sets up christ as the only governour and law-giver of his church , excluding all humane wisdome and power , from intermeddling in the regulating of his kingdome , by mans lesbian rule . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a78034e-390 2 sam. 20. 9 , 10. * see the postscript , pag. 44. prov. 20. 29. & 16. 31. * jude 5. rev. 12. 1. pag. 16. pag. 18. cicer. orat. pro l. murena . act. 24. 25 , 26 joh. 18. 28. mat. 10. 17 , 18 pag. 8. 1 cor. 14. 33 ▪ platina : in vita bonifacii 3. * 1. cor. 12. page 98. to the second question . page 14. psal. 18. acts 3. 22 ▪ acts 2. * esa. 56. 3. turpius ejicitur , quàm non admittitur bospes . page 100 1 cor. 1. 2. page 105. acts 10. page 115. homily , second sermon for whitsunday . page 118. * 1 cor. 5. 4. 1 sam. 19. acts 19. 2. * act. 5. 28. ibid. * page 139. * page 144. * page 149. page 149. * isa. 58. 2. postsc . page 68. ibid. pag. 68. ibid. ibid. psal. 57. 4. jer. 18. 18. gal. 4. * relation of a conference . epist. dedic. ibid. defence , pag 4. * postsc . 41. * postsc . 12. 32. 34. 36. 38. page 54. ibid. 58. defence p. 30 postsc . 61. pag. 66. 69. pag. 43 , 44 , 45. page 21. page ibid. postscript , pag. 43 , 44. rev. 12. 10. eusebius eccles. hist. bon face 8. acts 15. * d. b. in his independency not gods ordinance , p. 149. acts 5. 38 , 39 , 40 , 31. a full reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on master prynnes twelve questions about church-government: vvherein the frivolousnesse, falsenesse, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, refelled. / by william prynne of lincolnes inne, esquire. prynne, william, 1600-1669. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a91190 of text r210038 in the english short title catalog (thomason e257_7). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 103 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a91190 wing p3966 thomason e257_7 estc r210038 99868873 99868873 159224 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a91190) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 159224) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 44:e257[7]) a full reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on master prynnes twelve questions about church-government: vvherein the frivolousnesse, falsenesse, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, refelled. / by william prynne of lincolnes inne, esquire. prynne, william, 1600-1669. 24 p. printed by f.l. for michael sparke senior, and are to be sold at the blew-bible in green-arbour., london, : 1644. annotation on thomason copy: "octo: 19th". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng goodwin, john, 1594?-1665. -certain briefe observations. prynne, william, 1600-1669. -twelve considerable serious questions touching church government. congregationalism -early works to 1800. a91190 r210038 (thomason e257_7). civilwar no a full reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on master prynnes twelve questions about church-government:: vvherein the fri prynne, william 1644 18123 57 0 0 0 0 0 31 c the rate of 31 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-07 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-09 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2007-09 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a fvll reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on master prynnes twelve questions about church-government : wherein the frivolousnesse , falsenesse , and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer ( ashamed of his name ) and his weak grounds for independency , and separation , are modestly discovered , refelled . by william prynne of lincolnes inne , esquire . socrates scholasticus eccles. hist. l. 5. c. 20. ecclesia cum semel esset divisa , non una divisione acquievit , sed homines ab se mutuò aversi , al●er ab altero denuò scesserunt ; atque adeò exigvam levicvlamqve occasionem nacti , mutuae communionis consociationisque vincula disruperunt . mark 9. 50. have salt in your selves , and have peace one with another . iohn 18. 37. to this end was i born , and for this cause come i into the world , that i should beare witnesse unto the truth . gal. 4. 16. am i therefore become your enemy , because i tell you the truth ? london , printed by f. l. for michael sparke senior , and are to bee sold at the blew-bible in green-arbour . 1644. a full reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries to mr prynnes twelve questions about church-government . of all the vanities and vexations of spirit , enumerated by the royall preacher , this is one of the principall , a that for all travell , and every right worke , a man is envied ( yea , many times hated , oppugned ) by his neighbour . this hath been alwayes my condition heretofore and now ; my best actions and publike services for the common good , have been misconstrued , traduced , nay censured in an high degree , as evill , by many ; though ( blessed be god ) approved , yea gratefully accepted by the best-affected to the felicity , tranquilliry of church and state . the importunity of some reverend friends , lamenting the deplorable distractions of our church , which threaten disunion , and so ruine to us , in these unhappy times of intestine warres , prevailed so farre , as to induce me to compile and publish twelve considerable serious questions touching church-government ; out of a cordial desire ( as much as in me lay ) to close up , not widen our divisions . which though they have given ample satisfaction to many truely religious , of all ranks and qualities , who have returned me speciall thanks ; yet they have found very harsh entertainment from others , who of friends b are become my professed antagonists ( if not enemies ) in print , because i have told them the truth : to whom i should have returned no reply but silence ( there being nought in these observations worthy answer ) but only to rectifie some mistakes therin , and shew the opposite party those common errours whereby they deceive themselves and others . the first thing this namelesse respondent quarrels with , is c for my writing by may of quere ; to which i answer , that i had both presidents and reasons for it . presidents , from our saviour himselfe , who both instructed , refuted , convinced his opposites and auditors by demanding questions onely , luk. 2. 46 , 47. matth. 11. 1 , to 20. c. 12. 3 , to 13. 26. 27. 29. c. 21. 23 , to 43. c. 22. 18 , to 23. c. 16. 26. presidents from philosophers , fathers , school-men , and all sorts of writers , ancient ▪ modern , over-tedious to recite . reasons : 1. i conceived the questions touching church-government were not rightly stated by most ; and that the right stating of them by way of question , would be the best and speediest meanes to decide them . 2. the independent party had neither then , nor since ( to my knowledg ) dogmatically resolved or discovered in print , what that church-government is they so eagerly contend for , and pretend to be so plainly set down in the word of god : and therefore i conjectured such queries to be the onely meanes to discover and refute their concealed platforme . 3. the controversies concerning church-government , were then and now in agitation in the synode and high court of parliament , the properest iudges of them ; therefore i thought it better became me in point of modesty and good manners , to expresse my opinion of them by way of question , then decision . finally , i found all independents guilty of petitio principii , in their writings , sermons , discourses , peremptorily concluding their forme of church-government , to d be the onely government instituted by christ , the only way of god , which hath more of god and christ in it then any other ; the kingdome , scepter , and throne of christ himselfe , and no other way beside it ; e that by the beauty and perfect consonancy of this government with the word of god , it may very reasonably ( yea , and upon higher termes then of reason ) bee thought , that in time it cannot bvt overthrow all sorts of ecclesiasticall government , ( and i feare civill too by the selfe-same-reason ) and stand vp it selfe in their stead ; which they close up with a , faxit deus & festinet : and , that writing or disputing against this government , or opposing it in any kind , yea in thought , is no lesse then f a fighting against god , which will bring certain ruine on our realme in generall , and all private , open opposers of it : yet not one of them ( nor this respondent ) hath hitherto fully discovered to us , what this way or government is ; nor produced any one scripture or reason to warrant these superlative encomiums of it , but we must take all they say as gospel , upon their own bare words , without examination or dispute : and therefore i proposed these , with 12 other subsequent questions to them ; to induce them to make good these transcendent ( that i say not arrogant ) positions touching their way ; since i seriously professe before god , angels , and men , that i could never yet discover the least footsteps of it in scripture , or antiquity , nor defery this their patern in the mount , which no age till ours had ever the happiness to behold ; if it be worth the viewing , when unvailed by them to us . having thus given this respondent the true grounds of my writing by way of question , i shall briefly answer all his materiall observations and anti-queries upon my twelve questions , pretermitting his impertinencies . 1. to the first question the respondent gives no answer at all to the things demanded , but only misrecites the question , without my limitations ; and then seemes to refute , what himselfe propounds , not i : he should have demonstrated by direct scriptures , that christ hath prescribed one set immutable forme of government to all christian nations , churches in the world , from which none must vary in the least degree , without sinne , schisme , or being no true churches of christ , with whom good christians may with safe conscience communicate ; that nothing herein is , or can be left free to humane prudence : and then have positively delineated , exactly proved the modell of this pretended government , discipline , in every particle thereof , by gospel-texts , so far as to satisfie mens erronious judgments , consciences herein , that so they might either submit thereto without dispute , or propound their objections against the same . but in this maine point ( whereon the hinge of the controversie turnes ) the respondent is wholly silent , and i shall expect his answer ad graecas calendas . only lest he might seem to say nothing , he endevours to prove , that there is a set forme of church-government prescribed by christ in the gospel , not by direct texts , but from pretended absurdities of his owne fancying , ( for which he can produce no text nor reason ) wherein he hath prevaricated , and shewes himselfe absurd . first , ( writes he ) if this were granted ( that there is no such set form of church-government prescribed to all ) the gospell would be * straiter then the law , christ more unfaithfull then moses . if we deny these absurd consequences , you shall have these sound proofes of both subjoined ; god set a patterne to * moses of a carnall temple , ( you mistake good sir , it was a tabernacle , and that not carnall ) which he charged him not to vary from in a tittle : ( well , i grant it , because you produce * two full scriptures for it ) ergo , he hath prescribed a set pattern of church-government and discipline to all christian nations , churches in the new testament , from which they must not vary in one tittle . if he ( or any other ) can shew me such a pattern as he contends for , so clearly delineated to us in the new testament , as that pattern of the tabernacle god shewed moses was in the old , and then produce as direct precepts enjoyning all christians , republikes , churches , not to vary from it in one tittle , as moses had not to vary from his , i shall beleeve his sequell ; till then i shall deeme it a true independent argument , and as grosse a non-sequitur as this , which necessarily followes upon the concession of it . god shewed and prescribed to moses the expresse pattern or fashion of aarons and his sons garments , ornaments , under the law , exod. 28. ergo he hath likewise shewed and prescribed the expresse pattern , fashion , and colour , of all bishops , presbyters , ministers garments , ornaments under the gospel , ( most likely in the roman ceremoniall and pontificall . ) if the one consequence be ridiculous , the other must needs be so . but to quell this your principall argument , first , the patterne in the mount was meant onely of the materials , forme , vessels and utensils of the tabernacle , not of the government and discipline of the iewish church ; therefore very impertinent to prove a setled church-government , discipline , under the gospel . secondly , it was shewed only to moses , the temporall magistrate and chief ruler of the israelites ; not to aaron , or any private independent priest or synagogue of the iewes ; yea moses ( not they ) was to make , or see all things made according to the pattern in the mount ; ergo ( if there be any consequence from this patterne ) not the independent minister or congregation , but kings , chief temporall magistrates , and parliaments ( the supreme civill powers , councels , are likewise ( under the gospell ) to prescribe and set up such a church-government as is agreeable to gods word : as moses , joshua , david , solomon , hezekiah , josiah , nehemiah , and other godly princes , governours , with their parliaments or generall assemblies did under the law : and then what becomes of your independent ministers , congregations claimes to this soveraigne temporall jurisdiction , ( a part of christs kingly office , delegated onely to kings , and highest temporall powers ) which was never conferred on them ? in fine , if there be any such expresse unalterable divine patterne of church-government under the gospel , i pray informe me , why it was not as punctually , as particularly described in the new testament , as the forme of the tabernacle , of its materialls , with all the services , ornaments , appurtenances of it , and of the temple were under the law ? nay , why was the tabernacle altered into a * temple , different from it ? and why did the second * temple vary from the first , and that in the self same church and nation ? if these were patterns of the church-government under the gospel , and yet varied , altered successively in this manner ; then by consequence the government , discipline under the gospel is variable , alterable too , and so not fixed , nor immutable . his second argument , that christ should neither be faithfull as a husband , head , nor king of his church , if he should give others power to order it as they pleased to their owne civill government , not setting downe his owne lawes for them to walke by , is both a fallacy and absurdity . there is no man doubts but that christ in the scriptures ( which some of you refuse to heare read in our churches , though * publicke reading of them be gods owne ordinance ) hath prescribed to us all necessary rules and lawes both for our faith and lives , either in a generall or speciall manner ; but that christ hath punctually and particularly set downe any exact unalterable form of church-government , for all christian nations , churches to follow , under pain of being unfaithfull in all the former respects ; and that the independent modell alone is that very patterne ( the onely point in question ) remains on your part to make good . a man may be a faithfull husband , king , master , father , though he prescribe not distinct particular lawes , to regulate each particular action of his wife , subjects , servants , children : * let all things be done decently and in order , ( a generall rule for church-government ) is sufficient to excuse christ from these your presumptuous reproaches ▪ and regulate all particulars , though left indefinite . his third argument , that rev. 11. 1 , 2. we read of a † measuring of the temple ; and rev. 21. 1 , 2. of the new jerusalem comming downe from god out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband ; ergo there is a setled divine church-government universally prescribed to all christians in the new testament ; is no better a proofe of this assertion , then the angel of the church of ephesus , is of our prelates lordly hierarchy jure divino . he might as well , yea more properly have concluded thence , that the altar was measured as well as the temple , revelat. 11. 1. ( referring onely to the * jewish not christian church , which hath no * temple nor altar : ) ergo we ought to have an altar , yea and one set form of altars in all christian churches under the gospell : which i hope you dare not averre . after these three independent arguments , he pretends my third quere contradicts the first , because i suppose a church-government may be consonant to gods word in the generall , which is not particularly prescribed in it : a pretty fancy ! as if nothing could be consonant to gods word , which is not particularized or verbally enjoyned in it : are not our materiall churches , garments , temporall magistrates , majors , corporations , parliaments , courts of justice , laws of all sorts , yea festivals , covenants , monthly fasts , &c. consonant to gods word , because not literally prescribed in it ? are your private church-covenants , unmixt communions ( as you phrase them ▪ ) erections of independent congregations without the licence of temporall magistrates , not consonant to the word in your owne opinions , though no where extant in it ? if not , then all your divine pretences for them vanish and you yeeld your cause : if yea , you must then recant this pretence of a contradiction , till you are able to prove it better then yet you have done . having played the logicians and contradictors part so well , he next betakes himself to his anti-queries to prove a set church-modell : which are three . 1. if no preseript forme ( of church-government ) in the word , why not episcopacy ( especially regulated and moderated ) as well as presbytery ? i answere , if you meane it of lordly episcopacy , there are abundant pregnant texts against it , to prove it opposite to gods word . if of moderated or regulated episcopacy , the same with presbytery : if the parliament by the synods advice unanimously establish it , as most consonant to the scriptures , and most agreeable to the civill government , i shall readily submit unto it without opposition , and why not you and all others ? 2. if church-government be suited to states , whether politicians are not more fit to consult about establishing it ? why is an assembly of divines called to search the word about it ? i answer , that my position is , that every church-government ought to be suitable to gods word , as likewise to the civill state ; therefore politicians and states-men are fit to be consulted with , to suit it best to the civill state ; and an assembly of divines , to square it likewise by and to the word : the true reason why in this our realme , and all other christian states ( as i can abundantly manifest if need be ) ecclesiasticall lawes and formes of government have ever been setled by parliaments , with the advice of synods , councells , wherein states-men and church-men have jointly concurred in their deliberations and votes , using both the bible and the law to settle it , and not throwing either of them aside , as incompatible , as ignorant or lawlesse persons deeme them , but joyning both together . to his third anti-quere i answer , that it is more reasonable the * state should be subject to christs rule , then christ to its direction : but this quere is quite besides the question , till you prove infallibly , that christ hath prescribed a set unalterable divine government , to which all churches , nations , states , must necessarily conform ; and clearly manifest what this government is in all its particulars . till this be done the sole question is , whether christian princes , parliaments , states , synods , under the gospel , have not a lawfull power to prescribe ecclesiasticall lawes and forms of government , not repugnant to the word , not to christ himself , ( as you pretend ) but to all particular churches , congregations , subjects under their respective jurisdictions ? and whether the whole representative church and state of england in parliament , have not sufficient authority by gods law to over-rule and bind all , or any particular members or congregations of it , as well as the major part of an independent congregation , power to * over-vote and rule the lesser part , and to order , yea bind any of their particular members ? a truth so clear , that no rationall man good christian or subject can deny it . as for the latter part of this querie , that the saints think christ is king alone over his churches , and hath not left them to substitutes , and the politick considerations of men to be governed by ; if he meanes it onely of matters of faith , or of internall government over the soules of men , it may passe as tolerable ; but if he intends it of externall ecclesiasticall government , discipline , or order in the church , or state as christian , hee must renounce his oath of allegeance , his late protestation , nationall vow and covenant , and make rom. 13. 1 , to 6. 1. pet. 2. 13 , 14. tit. 3. 1. 1 tim. 2. 1 , 2 , 3. to be apocryphall ; the confessions of all protestant churches heterodox ; and deny christian kings , magistrates , and highest civill powers , to be christs substitutes , vicars , in point of government , ( to whom christ hath delegated his kingly power ) as truely as ministers are his deputies in point of instruction , admonition , to whom he hath bequeathed his propheticall office . 2. in his answer to my second quere , he first wilfully misrecites it , then infers † a blind obedience from it to all superiours commands , be they never so unjust or contrary to gods word ; whereas my question speaks onely of lawfull decrees , &c. consonant to gods word , and to the civill lawes , government , and manners of the people ; to which every christian in point of conscience is bound to submit , ( without any danger of blinde obedience ) by the expresse resolution of rom. 13. 1 , to 6. 1 pet. 2. 14 , 15. tit. 3. 1. ezra 7. 26. josh. 1. 16 , 17 , 18. heb. 13. 17. if any man deny this verity , he must renounce not onely his christianity , but his allegeance and humanity too . but suppose ( saith he ) the whole parliament and synode should erre in commanding a government that is erronious or untrue , must we then submit unto it ? i answer , first , such an oversight is not to be presumed before it be actually committed ; and it is neither * christian , charitable , nor any way of christ , thus to prejudge their resolutions . secondly , if the decrees or government they establish be not directly against gods word , nor pernicious to our soules , though not altogether such as we could wish , yet we ought contentedly to submit unto it without opposition : if contrary to the word , we must then passively submit thereto for the present , and expect a redresse in gods due time . but if it be such a government and discipline , under which we may freely enjoy the sincere and powerfull preaching of the word , the due administration of the sacraments , and all other ordinances of god necessary for our salvation and edification , ( as we may doubtlesse do under a presbytery , and that government our pious parliament intends to settle ) we ought cordially and cheerfully to submit thereto ; yea thankfully to embrace and blesse god for it , and can neither waiwardly oppugne nor refuse submission to it , without arrogancy , contumacy , and apparent schisme . as for his question concerning my owne and fellow-brethrens sufferings , ( which we deeme our honour , not our shame ) i answer , that none of us suffered for opposing , writing , or speaking against the bishops legall authority , or any ceremonies established in our church by act of parliament ; but onely against their pretended divine right to their episcopall lordly power , diametrally contrary to scripture , fathers , councels , the best protestant and popish authors , the * statutes of our realm ; and against their innovations in doctrine , discipline , ceremonies , canons , &c. contrary to the lawes of the land , articles , and homilies of our church ; as the parliament hath resolved , yea all our books demonstrate , and dr bastwicke in direct termes , in the preface of his flagellum : and therefore it could be neither pride , arrogance , nor schisme , but meer conscience and duty in us , to oppose them in these their usurpations and innovations only , contrary to the laws of god and the realme : if he and his would containe themselves within these our bounds , our church should enjoy more peace , their persons more honour , then now they are likely to gaine , by opposing , prejudicating both the parliaments and synods proceedings , though never so pious , consciencious , religious . 3. his pretended contradiction of the third quere to the first , is formerly answered ; i shall onely adde , that things may be consonant to the generall rules of gods word , though not precisely prescribed in it : yea , independent ladies and gentlewomen , ( and you i hope ) will grant , that their different fashions , habits , colours , attires , are all agreeable to gods word , ( if modest ) and warranted by this generall precept 1 tim. 2. 9. let women adorn themselves in modest apparel , though not particularized in the text : so may a church-government or dresse be consonant to scripture , though not precisely delineated or enjoyned by it . to the fourth he gives no answer at all , but bids me prove it ; which i have done already in my independency examined , till it be disproved . to the fifth , he grants that independency will overthrow all nationall churches and synods ; and the two independent brethren assure us in their reply to a. s p. 111 that in time it cannot but overthrow all other sorts of ecclesiasticall governments : is it not then a turbulent , dangerous , schismaticall , unquiet ( that i say not insufferable ) government , by your owne confessions , which will admit no equall nor corrivall ; nor yet any nationall church , synod , parliament , prince , or temporall magistrate , to exercise any , ecclesiasticall , legislative , or magisteriall authority over any of their conventicles , members , persons , liberties , estates , much lesse their consciences , as they are christians ? will any parliament , state , or nation , ( thinke you ) suffer such a government to take root among them , which will un-king , un-parliament , un-church , un-nation them altogether , and make each severall congregation an absolute monarchy , church , republick , nation , within it selfe , depending on , subordinate wholly to it selfe , as if it and they were no part or members of the publike ? the lord preserve us from such a dividing and overturning government . as for his invectives against the formality , tyranny , and enslaving of mens judgments in the presbyteriall way , as inconsistent with spirituall liberty and state priviledges , they are meere groundlesse calumnies , to draw an odium on it , ( some of your male-contented party professing they would rather set up lordly episcopacy , which they have abjured , then it ) whereas these aspersions suit better with your independent modell , which is more rigid , uncharitable , unsociable , papall , tyrannicall , anti-monarchicall , anti-synodicall , yea anti-parliamentall , ( as i have elsewhere manifested ) then any other church-government whatsoever . as for my pretended bitter expressions , they are so suitable to the effects and reall consequences of this new way , ( as you stile it ) that i could not expresse my self in other language , without injury to the truth : and if any of my best friends , who stood by me in my sufferings , deem themselves injured or reproached by them , ( as you pretend , though none of them have yet complained to me ) it is ( i hope ) onely scandalum acceptum , non datum ; and i presume my friends are so ingenuous , as not to be offended with me for * reproving only their errors with ingenuous freedom , in which i manifest my self their greatest friend , because i neither spare not flatter them in their mistakes : however , though i really honour all my christian friends , as well independent as presbyteriall , ( whom you most scandalously traduce as episcopall and time-servers heretofore ) yet i preferre the * truth of god , the peace , and safety of my native , bleeding , dying church and countrey , ( now much endangered by our unhappy divisions ) before all friends or earthly comforts whatsoever . as for your pretended unsubjection of pre●byterian synods and churches to the parliament in setling ecclesiasticall matters , i neither know nor plead for any such ▪ and our present assembly being both appointed , directed by , and submitting all their determinations wholly to the parliament , ( as they are obliged both by orders , protestation , covenant , and professe they ought to doe ) armes me sufficiently against any such improbable untrue surmise . 6. to the sixth quere he returnes no answer , but plainly yeelds , that there was never any independent church in any age or nation whatsoever , totally converted to the christian faith , till this present ; nor any one author that maintained it , till mr ainsworth ( a separatist ) from whom the apologists professe their dissent in some things . as for any reverend godly persons who now contend for this new modell , though i reverence their persons , judgements too in other things , yet i cannot subscribe to them in this new dangerous by-path , which is not yet so beaten as to deserve the name of christs road-way . for the new supposed light ▪ discovered in these dayes , touching church-government , if you meane it onely of your independency , ( which you borrowed from the brownists , or low-countrey anabaptists , the first inventors of this government ) i doubt when brought out to the light , and examined by the word of light , it will for the most part prove but twilight , if not darknesse : if you meane it of any other light , that is truely such , we blesse god for it , and desire to walke brotherly and unanimously in it . in the seventh he grants , that the law of nature , which instructs men to unite themselves into one nationall state , or civill government , doth likewise teach them to joine themselves into , subject themselves unto one nationall church , and to nationall synods , parliaments , in point of church-government ; in which every particular man hath his vote , though not in proper person , ( since all cannot possibly assemble ) yet in their deputies , knights , burgesses , or selected commissioners : and though it be true that christ hath not given magistrates such absolute authority over mens consciences as bodies , ( as you object ) yet he hath enjoyned us to be * subject to the higher powers , and to every lawfull ordinance of man ( not repugnant to his word ) even for conscience sake , and the lords sake too . for my passage , that there is no example of gathering independeut congregations , not of infidels but of men already converted to , and setled in the christian faith , unlesse derived from the private conventicles of arrians , novatians ; donatists , and other hereticks , who yet were not independent among themselves ; it is not a bitter speech , ( as you phrase it ) but a true one , and onely bitter to you because undeniable : for as it was the * common practice of those seducing hereticks , sectaries , to gather private conventicles of their own , and labour to draw other orthodox christians from their proper ministers , to incorporate themselves into their private separated congregations , as historians informe us : so no such practice of alluring and stealing away other pastors sheep from their proper shepheard , who first coverted them to , and edified them in the faith and grace of christ , can be produced , but only in these hereticks and sectaries , whose practice your independents imitate . as for those private conventicles ( as he phraseth them ) for which he saith i may blesse god , that i was remembred in them with tears , when others durst not name me ; as i do really blesse god for them , and those who remembred me effectually in them , so i dare not stile them conventicles in an ill sense , since not † such by law , being only lawfull assemblies of private christians to seek unto god by prayer & fasting upon extraordinary occasions , which all good christians cannot but approve : but all these meetings were farre from being then stiled , reputed independent churches , or having any affinity with them ; so as they make nothing for his cause . to the eighth quere he gives a negative answer , first in generall , next in particular to some instances . first he grants , that there was a nationall church ( yea nationall assemblies , parliaments , determining church-affaires , ) of the jewes , but these ( saith he ) cannot be a pattern for its now , because the covenant of the gospell is not made with any one particular nation , as with the jewes , but to all nations that embrace the gospel , and beleeve in christ ; you have no promise nor prophesie of any nation to be holy to god but the jewes nation , when they shall bee called againe . to which i reply , first , that independents have not the least precept or example for any solemne covenant made betwixt god and men to walke in the wayes of god , &c. but onely * in the old testament , and church of the israelites , and that no private congregationall , but publike nationall covenant , prescribed by the supreme temporall magistrate and assembly , not by the priests or private synagogues ; yea the principall precepts , presidents for publike or private fasts , sanctifying the sabbath , &c. you likewise derive from the old testament and that church ; why then should not their nationall church be a pattern for us , and you to imitate , as well as their nationall covenant , fasting , sabbath-keeping ; the church of god being all one , ( as it is a church ) both under the old teastament and new ; and the pattern of it under the law a better pesident for the church under the gospel , ( of which it was a type and fore-tunner ) then the pattern of the tabernacle shewed in the mount ( so frequent in your lips and books ) a president for your independent modell , to which it hath no analogy . 2. this reason is most absurd and false , the covenant of the gospel extending not onely to particular persons , but to † all nations and people whatsoever , who are both prophesied and promised to become christs own inheritance , possession , people , spouse , church , and to be an holy nation , a pecvliar people &c. to the lord , in infinite texts both of the old and new testament , which i wonder the respondent should either not see , or forget , being ten thousand fold more cleare and visible then his independent platforme , which few or none can yet espy in scripture , history , or politiques . 2. he addes , that i cannot shew any nation , every member whereof is qualified sufficiently to make up a church , which is christs body , unlesse i will take in drunkards , whore-masters &c. to be members of a church , whereas the word saith , they must be visible saints , and this cannot be avoided in a nationall church . i answer that i dare not be wiser then my master christ who informes me , that there will , and must be alwayes in the visible church on earth ( be : it nationall , parochiall , presbyteriall , or congregationall ) * goats among the sheep , chaffe among the wheat ( which must grow together till the harvest , at the end of the world , to wit the day of judgment ) & good fish mixed with the bad in the churches not. 2. i finde a a judas , a devill , among the apostles , many b grosse sinners idolaters , and corruptions in the jewish church ; many abuses , epicures , drunkards , whore-masters , libertines , uncleane persons , and false teachers , in the churches of galatia , ephesus , colosse , pergamus , smynna , thyatira , and laodicea ; yet the scripture expresly stiles them c the body and churches of christ and rep●tes such , members ( though corrupt ones ) of those churches ; who doe not actually cease to be members when excommunicated or suspended for a season , after they are baptized , and professe the christian faith : nor did any separate from these churches , though they had some corruptions and evill members . for you therefore to separate from , and unchurch such nationall or parochiall churches , which have such members in them , is to unchurch all churches both in the old and new testament and the world it self , yea your own churches too . 3. the scripture is expresse , d that many are called , but few chosen and saved ; that all must be compelled to come into the church , though they want the wedding-garment : there never was , nor shall be here on earth , any one visible church compacted wholly of reall elected saints , without any mixture of reprobates ; such a church we shall meet with onely in heaven , i am sure you can gather none such on earth . 4. are there no corrupt or drunken members in your independent churches , but onely reall visible saints ? are there no usurers , oppressors , corrupt dealers , covetous , proud , malicious , uncharitable , censorious persons ; no apparent hypocrites or dissemblers ? yea , are there not many sinnes and corruptions in the best , the choicest of all your members ; ( who cannot depart away , or quite separate themselves from their owne bosome corruptions , ) as there is and will be in the best of men during their mortality ? if your independent congregations consist of such members as these , of men subject to like passions , sinnes , infirmities as others in presbyteriall churches , what then is become of this your reason and principall ground of independency , or rather , separation , or brownism , its ancient proper title ? you may lay it up in lavander for another world , but can make no use of it in this , where you cannot so much as dream of a church of reall saints , without any mixture of corruption . 3. for his answers to that of acts 15. all ages , churches , till this present , have held it both an expresse warrant and president for the lawfulnesse ▪ , usefulness of nationall and provinciall synods to determine differences in religion , ( which particular churches , persons cannot decide ) and making necessary canons for church-affaires ; neither can all his shifts elude it : to his first and second reasons , or rather evasions i answer , it is clear by act. 15. 2. that the church of antiech it selfe could not decide the question , nor paul nor barnabas satisfactorily determine it , so farre as to quiet all parties ; and therefore they sent delegates to the apostles and elders at hierusalom , there to decide it : none is so ignorant but knowes , that there are many controversies now on foot concerning doctrine , discipline , and church-government , which no particular congregations , ( nay hardly an whole synod and parliament together ) are sufficient to settle and determine ; therefore there is a kinde of necessity of nationall synods as well as of parliaments , whence all ages , churches , have used them . to his third reason i reply , that it is evident by expresse words vers. 2. 5. 6. 7. 10. 19. 20. 24. that the principall end why the apostles went up to hierusalem , and why this synod assembled was not to prove the false apostles lyars , ( as he assirmeth ) but to debate and consider this qvestion and matter , whether the gentiles ought to be circumcised ? to his fourth , i say , that though this meeting was occasional , yet it i● a sufficient warrant for generall meetings , which are usually called , only upon speciall occasions of moment : in it there was a generall assembling of all the apostles , elders , and brethren at hierusalem , ( where there were then divers particular congregations , as , our assembly long since resolved from acts 2. 6. 41 , 42. 46 , 47. c. 4. 4. c. 5. 14 15 , 16 , 42. c. 6. 1 , to 9. c. 8. 2 , 3 , 4. c. 11. 1 , 2. c. 12. 12 , 13. c. 21. 17 , 18 23 , 22. which if independents deny , then they must prove , that all the apostles and elders at hierusalem were pastors but of one and the self-same individuall congregation ; and then what becomes of their independent churches , which have no apostle , and onely one pastor , but scarce any elders in them ) who upon this speciall and some other publike occasions met all together , and that not to advise onely , but determine and resolve , as is evident by vers . 6. to . 32. c. 16. 4. c. 21. 25. which compared with the texts of the old testament in the margin of my quere , where we finde frequent nationall generall assemblies , synods , or parliaments ( if i may so stile them ) among the israelites ( prescribed , appointed by god , and no wayes contradicted , revoked under the gospel ) determining † all ecclesiasticall controversies , setling , ordering all church-affaires , matters concerning the arke , temple , sacrifices , passeover , priests ▪ nationall covenants , fasting-dayes , festivalls , suppressions of idolatry , false-worship , reliques of idolatry , and the like ; are an impregnable evidence of the lawfulnesse of nationall synods , parliaments , assemblies , in all christian kingdomes , republikes , upon the like occasions , and that they are endued with equivalent authority ; there being no one text in the old or new testament , nor any shadow of reason , ( but meer shifts or obstinacy of spirit against publike goverment , order , and authority ) to controll it . if any pretend they doe it onely out of conscience , if they will but seriously gage their owne deceitfull hearts , i feare their conscience will prove but wilfulnesse , having neither precept , president , nor reason to direct it : so as i may truely retort his owne calumny against me on him and his , that his and their own name , will , or opinion , is their onely argument against this shining truth , which all ages , churches , have acknowledged , ratified , practised , without the least dispute . to my ninth quere , and arguments in it , he returnes nothing worthy reply , but upon this petitio principii , or begging of the thing disputed ; that the scripture and apostles have prescribed a set forme of government in all after ages for the churches of christ , which he neither can , nor endevours to prove ; and that churches in the apostles dayes were independent , though doubtlesse all churches were then subject to the apostles lawes , orders , edicts , decisions , though no immediate ministers or pastors of them , ( as appeares by their epistles to them ) therefore not independent : so as my arguments hold firme , and his answers weak . as for his retorted argument ; that the scriptures were writ in the infancy of the church : therefore wiser and better scriptures may be writ now ; it is a blasphemous and absurd conclusion , they being all writ by the spirit and inspiration of god himselfe , the very * ancient of dayes , who hath neither infancy nor perfection , as the church hath . to his second , that i would needs make a nationall church , state , more perfect , understanding , and wise , th●n a congregationall : i feare not to averre it , since your selves must grant , that the church under the law was more perfect then that before it ; the church under the gospel more perfect then that under the law ; and the churches under the gospel , at the end of the apostles dayes , when furnished with more divine knowledge , scriptures , gospels , officers , and rules of faith , manners , discipline , more compleat and perfect then at their beginning to preach : no man doubts , that though a * new-born infant and christian have all the parts and members of a man and saint , yet they have not so much perfection , understanding , knowledg , judgment , strength of grace , or spirituall wisdome , as grown men and christians . an aged , expetienced , growne minister ; christian , is more compleat and perfect theu a new converted † novice , or babe in grace ; ergo a growne and nationall church , then one but in the embryo . your independent churches , in their primitive infancy , when they had but two or three members onely in them , and wanted both elders , deacons , and other necessary church-officers ( as mr. sympsons church first did ) i am certain in your own opinion were not so complete and mature as you intended to make them afterwards by degrees : a village is not so complete a republike or corporation as a city , nor a city as a † kingdom , nor a family as a county , nor a consistory as a synod , nor a court of aldermen as a common-councell , nor that as a parliament : therefore an independent singular congregation not so complete as a nationall church , being oft enforced to pray in the aid of other churches for advice , assistance &c. ( as your selves confesse ) which an whole nationall church need not to doe . in fine , himselfe confesseth , that the apostles made new rules for government and discipline as occasion served ; and that as god fitted occasions , so he made knowne new rules successively by degrees , not at once ; and added new officers , as evangelicall bishops , elders , deacons , widowes , evangelists , doctors , pastors , teachers ( which some distinguish from presbyters , and define to be severall offices : ) therefore the infant church in the apostles dayes was not so compleat , perfect in all parts , as the multiplied and growne churches afterwards . my tenth quere he wilfully misrecites , as he doth the rest ; else he had not the least shadow of exception against it , as i propounded it , and then returnes an answer by way of dilemma to it : to which i reply , that if the parliament and synod shall by publike consent establish a presbyteriall church-government , as most consonant to gods word , the lawes and reiglement of this kingdome , independents and all others are bound in conscience to submit unto it , under paine of obstinacy , singularity , &c. in case they cannot really prove it diametrally contrary to the scriptures , and simply unlawfull in point of conscience , not by fancies , or remote inconsequences , but by direct texts and precepts , ( which they can never doe ; ) and that because it is thus commanded , established by the higher powers , to which in all lawfull or indifferent things wee are bound to render all chearfull obedience , without resistance , even for conscience sake , by expresse gospel texts , rom. 13. 1 , to 7. tit. 3. 1. 1 pet. 2. 14 , 15. which i wish you would practise better , and make make more conscience of then now you doe . as for his crosse interrogatories , i answer , 1. that if the popes councels command lawfull things to those who are subject to their power they are as well to be obeyed as the commands of * heathen emperours , magistrates , parents , husbands , by christian subjects , wives , servants , living under them are . 2. that there is a great difference between matters of opinion onely , and of practise ; that his instanced points , whether lordly episcopacy be jure divino ; or their making out processe under their owne names and seales be agreeable to the law of the land , are matters onely of opinion simply in themselves ; and if a synod and parliament should have determined the first , and the iudges resolved the last , affirmatively , their resolutions could not binde my judgement absolutely , so farre as to subscribe their opinions as undoubted truths , unlesse they could satisfie my arguments and authorities to the contrary ; but yet they should & ought to bind me for the present so far as to submit to their authority & processe in their own names in things within their legall cognisance : so if the parliament and assembly shall establish any church-government , as most agreeable to the scriptures and our lawes , though this binds not all independents to be simply of their opinion , unlesse the reasons and arguments produced for it be sufficient to convince their judgments , yet it binds them in point of practise and obedience , outwardly to submit thereto , and not to separate from it , under pain of arrogancy , faction , schisme , unlesse they can clearly manifest it to be absolutely unlawfull and repugnant to the scripture . as for my own objected challenge to the bishops & iudges ▪ about the jus divinum of lordly prelacy , and bishops processe in their own names ; when i made it i was certain i had both † scripture , fathers , councels acts of parliament , the suffrages of all forraigne reformed churches , writers , and our owne learnedest bishops , authors in all times against the first ; and direct acts , resolutions of parliament , patents , unanswerable law-authorities , and reasons against the latter : therefore a few lordly prelates opinions in their owne case or the subitane , forced , extrajudiciall resolution of the iudges ( not then published ) could no more conclude my judgment , nor make me guilty of arrogancy , obstinacy , or schism then , than their forced judgments for the lawfulnesse of loanes and ship-money , against expresse acts and judgments of parliament , oblige me or others , then or now , not to deeme that taxe illegall : and when you can produce as many good authorities , reasons from scripture , antiquity , acts of parliament , writers of all sorts , against the lawfulnesse of presbytery , as i have done against lordly episcopacy by divine right bishops making out processe under their own names , seals and † ship-mony , neither of which were ever setled by any former parliament , and have all bin expresly voted against in this : i shall then excuse you from arrogancy and schisme , but till this be done , ( as i presume it will never be ) the guilt of both these wil stick fast upon you , if you readily conforme not in outward practice to that government the parliament shall establish . if they should settle independency , i am certaine you would then write and preach for universall obedience to it , ( which you now publikely call for so eagerly without authority or proof of its divinity , because thus setled ) without dispute : therefore by like reason you ought to submit to a presbytery , or such other government as shall be resolved on by those intrusted with this care . to my 11. quere he gives only a negative answer and then declaims against presbytery without ground or reason : but because i have proved the truth of what he denies in my independency examined and in some following pages , i shal not trouble you with any further proof , except these two particulars : 1. that independency is in reality meer separation and brownism , lately christened with this new title , to take off its odium : and if so , i doubt not but it is a nursery of schisms , sectaries , &c. 2. that we finde by wofull experience , what bloudy divisions , warres , schisms , the toleration but of one religion and sect in our realms contrary to that established , ( to wit popery and pupists ) hath produced in all our dominions , to their imminent danger , and almost utter ruine ; what then will the free permission of many independent different forms of churches , sectaries do ? will it not produce many more troubles , dangers , wars , schisms , then we have hitherto felt ? yea , if every man ought to have freedom of conscience , to vent what opinions , & set up what governments he deems most conformable to the word in his own private fantie , you must indulge papists this liberty as well as others : and then how soone will they over-run us for the future , how justly can we take up armes to suppresse them for the present ? consider seriously of those and other publike-mischiefes of your way , and that liberty of conscience you so much contest for , ( which in truth is nothing but meere lawlesnesse , or licentiousnesse , to do * what seemes good in your owne eyes , as if there was no king in israel , without respect to the publike peace or weale ) and then happily you may in time discerne , recant your errour . to my twelfth quere he onely answers , that i fall a jeering of my brethren , ( a palpable untruth ) and that i put a nick-name on them , to make them odious ; to wit , the title of independents , which they disclaime ▪ not answering one syllable to the substance of the question . to which i reply : first , that the title of independency ( of which you are now ashamed ) was at first assumed , approved by your selves , and many of your party doe still owne , though some disclaim it , of purpose to evade the titles of separatists and brownists , with whom you really concurre in practice : besides , you very well know that this title was imposed on , and owned by you long before i writ ; therefore i could not father this brat upon you : but if you be offended with this name , i desire you in your next pamphlet to discover to us your owne christian name , with the true title of your party , and the government you plead for as the only way of christs institution ( all which you have hitherto concealed ) and then ( god willing ) i shall give you a further answer to this cavill , or retract this title ; till then i must informe you that it most proper for your party , who will have every of your owne private congregations , a complete absolute corporation , exempted from ; unsubjected to independent on any other , be it a nationall synodall , provinciall , parochiall assembly , parliament or kings themselves in any church-affaires : you must therefore still retaine this title , while● you maintaine such paradoxes both in opinion and practice as justly appropriate it to you , conveniunt rebus nomina saepe suis , being never more exactly verified then in this your suitable name . but you object , first , that you are accountable for your actions to every neighbour church , that shall in the name of christ require it . secondly , that you stand not independent from , but hold communion with all other churches , both in the ordinances , and in asking counsell and advice mutually . to the first i answer , 1. that if you are accountable for your actions to every particular neighbour church , then why not much more to a synod or parliament , whose ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over you or your churches is denied by you ? secondly , if you are thus accountable to every neighbour church , doe you intend it of parochiall , episcopall , or presbyteriall churches , as well as independent ; or of independent onely ? if of independent onely , as i suppose you doe , then you appeale onely to churches of your owne partie , frame , judgment , and make one of them subordinate , accountable to another , but not to any other church ; which is an apparent schisme , separation from all other churches , and contradicts your second objection : if of all other sorts of churches as well as independent , you must either grant them true churches of christ , and then you have no ground to sever from them ; or if false , or no true churches of christ , ( as you in truth repute them ) then by your own principles they are no competent iudges of ecclesiasticall affaires , nor you accountable to them . thirdly ▪ how ( i pray ) doe you hold your selves accountable to every neighbour church ? by way of subordination , or correction ? that i am certain you will deny : or only by way of voluntary information and satisfaction , when required , which i conceive you mean ? if so only , then this is properly no account at all ▪ or but arbitrary at most , which you may deny if you please ; and if you erre or prove faulty , this neighbour church can but admonish , not enforce you to correct your errours or injustice : and so this will prove but a meere mockery in stead of an account . to the second i answer , that if you stand not independent from other churches , but hold communion with them in ordinances , and in mutuall counsell and advice , then 1. why doe you separate from them as no true churches , and oppose their way of government with so much bitternesse ? secondly , why doe you refuse to administer baptisme and the lords supper to those who are their members , in your churches , unlesse they be professed members of some independent congregation ? thirdly , why do you not follow their advice , counsell , or the parliaments , synodes , and submit thereto ; who now earnestly disswade you from your way of separation , division , in these distracted times ? the end of demanding good counsell and advice being but to follow , not reject it , where there is humility , ingenuity , or sincerity in those who aske it . you must therefore either disclaime these objected concessions , or become more tractable for the future . 4. you tell us in the next succeeding lines , that neither i , nor synods , nor this synod , are infallible , but as subject to errours as others ; and that never † more dangerous errours have been confirmed then by synods : and therfore men are not bound in conscience to their decrees upon penaltie of sinne , arrogancy , &c. but pray sir may not you and your independent ministers churches erre as well as others ? is infallibility annexed onely to your private chaires , conventicles ? if not , then why may not your new-minted way be a meere erronious by-path , and no way of christ as well as other waies , and you erre herein as well as synods in other things ? why will you have the major vote in your congregationall decisions to over-rule and bind the rest to obedience ; ( as your practice and opinions intimate ) since the major part may possibly be mistaken , as well as the lesse dissenting ? shall nothing binde in any churches , but what is unanimously voted nemine contradicente ? or shall one or two dissenting voices over-rule the rest , or not be bound by the most ? or where all consent may not all yet be in an errour , and not discerne it ▪ through selfe-love to their owne wayes and opinions , till others of contrary judgements discover and convince them of their errour ? away then with this fond argument and evasion ; synods and parliaments may erre in some things , ergo they must binde us in no thing : is this good logicke or divinity ? good ministers may and doe erre sometimes in some points of divinitie , ergo wee will beleeve them in none , no not in those things in which they doe not erre . will you throw away all the apple because● one part of it only is rotten ? or reject communion with the best of men because they have some infirmities ? deal then with the ecclesiasticall decrees of synods and parliaments as in wisdome , in conscience you are bound to doe : where they are just , equall , not opposite to the word , embrace , submit unto them ; when erronious or contrariant to the expresse word ( not to your own fancies , inferences or opinions ) you may differ from them in judgment , but you must patiently suffer under them in point of practise & obedience ( if meerly practicall ) till a further season , and not disturb the churches peace by opposition or schism : which is as good , as seasonable christian advice , as that you conclude with unto me , which i heartily wish your selfe had first followed ▪ who have more defamed the ways of christ and u●ed more personall unchristian betternesse then i am guilty of . you wish indeed , o that a spirit of love were maintained among those that are brethren : though they differ in judgment ▪ must they needs differ in affection ? i say the same . but o then why seperate you from us , yea passe uncharitable censures on us as if we were not your brethren ? one kingdom , one city , house , doth now , one heaven shall heareafter contain us both : why not then one church government , one church militant , as well as one triumphant ? if you deem not your * selves more holy then your brethren , or be not swelled up with spirituall pride ( as your stiling your selves † men of rich anoynting from god , the most religiously affected , and best conscienced people of the land , the most precious men , &c. with your separation from us , and harsh censures of us , make most men suspect ) then why refuse you to close with us now , as you have done heretofore ? could our ministers , churches , when more corrupt , convert , regenerate . edifie , save you , and yet not now so much as hold you , when more refined and reformed ? if yea , then let us both shake hands without any more encounters ; if nay , then fairely ▪ chalke out your yet concealed independent way and platforme in all its severall lineaments , and beautifull native colours ; produce your severall punctuall scriptures , arguments , to maintain it , ( there being none of them extant in these your observations for ought i can find ) that so i may see the frame and grounds of this new fabricke , in as large or narrow a modell as you please : and then doubt not but an answer shall be given to what ever you modestly set forth , ( if worthy answer ) in case it be not satisfactorie ; or else a friendly embrace thereof , if agreeable to the spirit and word of truth , by him who hath learned pauls peremptorie resolution , 2 cor. 13. 8. we can do nothing against the truth , but for the truth ; in which resolution ( god assisting ) i resolve to live and die . certaine briefe animadversions on mr john goodwins theomachia , in iustification of some passages in my independency , examined , unmasked &c. and of the parliaments ecclesiasticall power . it is not my intention to repeate or refute all the unseasonable offensive passages in the epistle or body of this treatise , which ●●citly reflect upon the present religious parliament and assembly , raising needlesse feates and jealousies of them both ( in matters of religion and church-government ) as if they really intended * to increase our misery and bondage , by rejecting and oppressing truth ; to conjure all mens gifts , parts industrie into a synodicall circle ; and that there is almost as little hope of gathering grapes from thornes , or figges of thistles , as of having the joy of our faith holpen , or encreased , or any decrease , but rather increase of evills by them ; the resolutions of councells , and synods themselves upon the matter and just account , being but the fruits , or puttings forth of the learning and judgment of a very few men , not alwayes of the most consciencious &c. i shall only select some few particulars worthy consideration ; to fill up my vacant pages . first , it may be justly questioned , whether the maine doctrine prosecuted in it b that it is the greatest imprudence under heaven , for any man or ranke of men whatsoever to appeare , or so much as to list up an hand , or thought , against any way , doctrine or practise whatsoever clayming origination or descent from god , till we have securitie upon securitie , evidence upon evidence , yea all the securitie that men in an ordinary way are capable of , and foundations as cleare as the noone day , that such wayes , doctrines and practises , only pretend unto god as the author of them and that in truth they are not at all from him , but either from men , or from baser parentage ; that they are but counterseits and pretenders only , and stand in no relation at all , but that of emnitie and opposition unto god ; and that we are not to act the value of one haire of our head against them , untill we see their condemnation written with a beame of the sunne by the finger of god himselfe ; untill he hath disclaimed or renounced it from heaven , either by giving such wisedome unto men , whereby to detest the vanitie of it , or else hath quite rased it out of the flesh and tables of the hearts of his servants , &c. be orthodox or tolerable ? for these ensuing reasons . 1. first , because it opens a wide gate to the reviving of all old , the spreading and propagating of all new heresies , errors , schismes , sects , and opinions whatsoever , without the least timely opposition or prevention , to the endangering of infinite soules , and disturbance of the churches , kingdoms peace . for there is * no hereticke , schismaticke , or sectary whatsoever ( though never so pernicious , grosse or detestable ) but pretends his way , doctrine , practise , opinions to be the way and truth of christ , clayming their origination and descent from god , yea , * producing perverting the scripture it selfe to justifie them , as the * devill cited and wrested scripture to tempr christ : yea , our saviour and the scripture informe us , that many false teachers shall arise , and doe great miracles , signes and wonders , insomuch that they shall deceive many , yea the greatest part of the world , and if it were possible the very elect ; * that satan and his ministers also transforme themselves into angels of light : that false teachers usually come to seduce men in sheeps clothing , with all deceiveablenes and crafiines , whereby they lye in waite to deceive ; and advise us frequently to beware of such , and not admit them into our houses , &c. and must we therefore not speedly oppose , resist , avoyd , suppresse them or any of them now , because they thus pretend they are of and from god himselfe ; but stay till we see their condemnation written with a beam of the sun by the finger of god himselfe , and till he hath disclaimed , renounced them from heaven , by some visible judgment or destruction ? if arrianisme , pelagianisme , socinianism , anahaptisme , or any anciently exploded heresies , or schismes should revive and sprout up among us ( as some have lately done ) should wee use such indulgence as this towards them , because they pretend their origination and descent from heaven ; and their opinions not disputable only , but warranted by the scripture ? alas what confusion , what inundation of heresies , schismes , and monstrous opinions would this presently introduce into our church to its destruction , ruine , if such a paradox were once admitted ? secondly , because it is contrary to these expresse precepts and presidents both of the old and new testament , which you may peruse at leasure , deut. 13. 1. to 18. levit. 19. 17. joshua . 22. 9. to 24. psalme . 119. 104. 128. 2 kings . 22. 8. to 27. ier. 4. 30. 31. ( a pregnant place ) c. 14. 14. to 18. cap. 23. 13. to 23. cap 27. 15. to 19. c. 29. 8 , 9. ezra . 13. throughout matthew 7. 15. cap. 24. 11. 23. 24. 25. 26. mark , 13. 5 , 6. 22 , 23 , 24. acts 13. 6. to 14. cap 15. 1. to 33. cap. 17. 11. rom. 16. 17. 18. 2 cor. 11. 13. 14 , 15. galath. 1. 6. 7. 8 , 9. 10. c. 2. 4. to 18. ( a noted place ) c. 3. 1 , 2. 3. ephes. 4. 14 , 15. phil. 3. 1. 2. 3. coloss. 2. 8. 18. to the end 1 thes. 5. 21. 2 thes. 2. 1. to 16. c. 3. 6. 7. 1 tim. 4. 1. to 7. chap. 1. 20. chap. 5. 20. 21 , 22. 2 tim. 2. 16. 17 , 18. 23 , 24 , 25 , 26. c. 4. 1. to 6. titus . 1. 9. to 15. chapter 3. 9. 10 , 11. 2 pet. 2. 1. 2 , 3. c. 3. 17. 18. 1 ioh. 4. 2. 3. 2 john 10. 11. jude 3. 4. &c. revel. 2. 14. 15. 20. 21. compated together . f paul would not give way to false apostles no not for an houre , that the truth of the gospell might continue among the galatians , and resisted peter to his face , at soone as ever hee walked disorderly , and gave the least countenance to false teachers , though a chiefe apostle ; and did not demur upon the matter ; yea the churches * of porgamus , and thyatyra , are sharply blamed for suffering some among them to hold the doctrine of balaans , and the nicolaitans ; and to suffer jesabell the prophetesse to teach and seduce : and shall we permit them , now , without restraint ? thirdly , because it is contrary to these received unquestionable maximes of divinitie , policie , and morality . principijs obstare : venienti occurrere morbo , to withstand the very beginnings of errors , heresies , mischiefes ; schismes : to crush these cockatrices in the shell ; rather to keep then cast them out , turpius ejicitur quàm non admittitur hostis . all wise men hold preventing physicke best for their bodies , states , and why not for their souls and churches ? since , sero medicina paratur , cum mala per longas invaluére moras . fourthly , because contrary to the h policy practise of most godly magistrates , princes ministers , churches in all ages , nations , which never indulged such liberty to opinions , new wayes , practises , especially to new church-governments , schismes , and conventicles , ( which he here pleads for ) set up only by private spirits in opposition to the publick established church-regelment . indeed in some matters mearly of opinion which are not dangerous or schismaticall , some latitude may and must be left to men ; but matters of government are such tender things , as differences & varieties therin cannot be tollerated in one and the selfe same church and state without infinite inconveniencies and disturbances , especially where every church shall be independent , subject to no other canons , rules , but its own peculiar arbitrary dictates . 2 it may be questioned , whether the independent way he there so earnestly pleads for , be the way of christ , or not ? since he neither discovers to us what it is , nor produceth any one text to prove it christs own way , nor one example to warrant it in any age : but gives us good grounds to suspect it none of his without much scrutiny . 1 for first , he comeneth , i that this way is every where spoken against , even by some that would be thought prime men and pillars in the temple of god ; and insinuates ; that the parliament , assembly and generality of the k ministers and people of the realm , are bent against it ; therefore being a new way , never yet heard off in the world in any age , or church of christ , and thus generally opposed by our whole church and state even in these times of reformation ; we may l justly suspect it is no way of christ , till we see its approbation written in a beam of the sun with the finger of god himself , and till he hath justified and owned it as his , from heaven . 2 he tacitly acknowledgeth it a m government set up by a few private men , not only without but against the authority & commands of the parliament and supream temporall magistrates : yea , which not only denyes but oppugnes the temporall magistrates , parliaments , synods directions or coercive power in ecclesiasticall affairs ; directly contrary to the scriptures , as i have largely proved by many texts , in my o independency examined . only i shall adde , that not only the kings and temporall magistrates of the israelites ; but even heathen p kings and princes ( as cyrus , artaxerxes , darius , nebuchadnezzars the king & nobles of nineve &c. ) enacted good and wholsom laws , for the worship , honor and service of the true god , and to further his people in the building of his temple ; who thereupon were enjoyned to * pray for their prosperity , as the marginall scriptures evidence . yea , r paul himselfe even in matters of religion pleaded his cause before festus , felix , king agrippa , and at last appealed unto caesar an heathen emperor , herein ; yea he enjoyns all christians ſ to pray even for heathen kings , magistrates , and to submit to all their lawfull commands for conscience sake , to whose judicature and tribunals , t christ himself and his apostles willingly submitted themselves upon all occasions when brought before them , without demurring to their jurisdictions . therefore christian princes & magistrates , who were long since predicted to become nursing fathers to the church under the gospel , have much more power and jurisdiction in church-government and affairs within their own dominions . 3 for that it appears to be away that will breed infinite confusions , disorders , by confounding v the bounds of parishes renting congregations , families , and most relations assunder ; & giving way to every sect to chuse ministers , erect churches of their own . without controle , in point of position ( though their practise be quite contrary where they have power , they admitting no other kind of government but independency in new-england , and excommunicating or banishing those who will not submit unto it : ) a government inconsistent with royalty , and the civill government ; and so none of christs who never erected any church-gouernment to clash with or controle the civill . 4 whereas he pretends , that x persons of one family or parish may be members of severall churches without any inconvenience schisme , or distraction ; as well as members of severall companies and trades ; and therefore ind-pendency is no occasion of divisions . i answer 1 , that y two cannot walke peaceably and-lovingly together unlesse they are agreed , especially in matters of religion ; and those who in point of conscience cannot communicate or agree together in one church , will never questionlesse accord well together in one family , bed , parish , kingdom , as experience manifests . 2 there is a great difference between severall trades and halls in one city parish , kingdome and severall formes of church-government , in these particulars which occasion unity in the one but schismes in the others 1. all trades societies hold one another lawfull , usefull , necessary , agreeable to the lawes of god and the realme without dispute ; & so they breed no contrariety of opinions or disaffection : but each different church deems the other unlawful , & in no way of christ so as they cannot with safe conscience joyn or communicate together ; and thereupon they fever one from another . 2. every several trade and society , even in their very trade is subject to the general government , laws of the city & realm wherin they are to which they appeale and have recourse upon all occasions of difference , none craving an exemption or independency from the whole corporation , parliament or supream magistrate in matters which concern their government , but deriving their corporations charters , laws and priviledges from them : which subordination keep : them all in peace and unity . but independent churches deny any subordination , subjection to the ecclesiasticall lawes and edicts of parlements , of temporall magistrates or synods , and will be regulated , obliged onely by their own peculiar edicts : which must needs occasion infinite schismes and disorders : therefore the cases are far different from one the other . thirdly , christians , as christians , are all of one and the self-same society and profession , as those of one trade or calling are ; therefore they should have all but one common church and government , as these trades have : to set then the comparison upright , we must state it thus ; if some of one fraternity in london ( suppose the merchant-taylers , sadlers , mercers , or the like ) should fall out among themselves , and one would have one forme of government , another another , and thereupon divide themselves into severall conventicles and petty meetings in corners , not at their common hall , and one chuse one government , master , or warden , another another , and so sever the company , and continue independent ; this ( no doubt ) would prove an apparent schisme , and seminary of infinite divisions , to the distraction , destruction of the whole company and fraternity . this is the true state of your independency ; yea mr goodwins present case in his own parish , miserably divided , disordered by his independent way : which hath induced him to refuse to administer the lords supper , ( yea baptisme to some children of parishioners ) for a yeares space or more , though they offer to be examined by him ; esteeming them none of his flocke , ( preaching but seldome to them , though he receive their tithes : ) and instead thereof to gather an independent congregation to himselfe out of divers parishes and his owne , to whom hee prescribes a covenant ere they be admitted members of it ; preaching , praying , administring the sacrament to them alone in private conventicles , neglecting his parishioners : which hath engendred such discontents and rents in his parish , even among the well-affected and truely religious , that he must either desert it or his independent way . what schismes and discords this new war hath raised in other parishes , is so well knowne to the world , that i need no other evidence to prove it a schismaticall by-path , and so no way of christ the * prince of peace , who prescribes nought else but precepts of peace and unity to his churches , and is most offended with their schismes . finallie , i cannot thinke this way a way of christ because i finde it a pioner and underminer of parliamentary authority , devesting parliaments of all manner of jurisdiction in matters of religion and church-government ; witnesse the passage of the two independent brethren recited in my independency examined p. 3. ( which certainly weares a maske as yet , since she never appeared bare-faced to the world , not one of her parrons hitherto presenting us with her in her native colours , or lineaments ) whose guilt this author by his explanation , to make it good , rather aggravates then extenuates . he writes , that the brethren in the mentioned period and expressions , reflected onely upon the generalitie of the land , who according to the lawes , yea according to the principles of all reason and equitie have the right of nominating persons unto parliamentarie trust and power , but have no avthority or power from christ to nominate or appoint who shall be the men that shall order the affaires of christs kingdome , or institvte the government of his chvrches : these are that secular root , out of which the brethren conceive an impossibility that a spirituall extraction should be made ; that is that a legitimate ecclesiastick power shovld according to the mind of christ , or any precept or president of scriptvre , bee by them conferred vpon any man . and this impossibility conceived by them they onelie illustrate and declare by that parallel expression in job who can bring a cleane thing out of an uncleane ? &c. but to hold , that the persons so elected as hath been said , have a power by vertue of such nomination or election to enact lawes and statutes in matters of religion , and to order under mulcts and penalties how men shall worship and serve god , as it is a meanes to awaken the eye of jealousie upon them , and so is seven times more destructive unto , and undermining not onlie of their power , but of their honour , peace , and safetie also , then any thing that is found in the way so ill intreated ; so it is a setling of a power upon the electors of such persons , i meane the promiscuous multitude of the land , yea of a greater power then ever iesus christ himselfe had , at least then ever he exercised ; for as dare regem , argues a greater power then esse regem ; as hee that buildeth an house hath more honour then the house , hebr. 3. 3. so to nominate and appoint who shall have power to umpire in matters of conscience and of god , * to determine what shall be preached , and what not ; what shall be beleeved , and what not , is a branch of a greater root of power , then the exercise of the power that is committed to others in this behalfe . now though iesus christ had a power , and was authorized by god to be a law-giver himselfe unto his churches and saints in their spirituall republike , yet it is hard to prove , that he ever he invested any other with such a power : his apostles themselves were no lords over the faith of the saints , nor had they anie power or authoritie to impose any thing upon men , as † necessarie either to be beleeved or practised , but what they had in expresse commission and charge from jesus christ himselfe to impose upon such termes , &c. the summe of this large passage is , that there is not onelie an improbabilitie , but absolute impossibilitie that the parliament should have any power at all to enact lawes and statutes in matters of religion , church-government , gods worship or service , because the people who elect them have no such power , and so an impossibilitie of deriving any such authoritie to them ; and to affirme the contrarie , is not onely to awake the eyes of jealousie upon them , but exceedingly destructive to , and undermining of not onely their power ; but honour , peace , and safetie also . whether this be not directly to undermine the authority of parliaments and temporal magistrates in all church-affairs and matters of religion , contrarie to your late covenant and protestation , and that in the most transcendent maner that ever any have hitherto attempted in print , let all wise men judg : i am sory such ill passages should fall from so good a pen . but to give a short answer to this extravagant discourse : first , this objection might be made against the generall assemblies , parliaments , kings of the israelites , who a were chosen by the people , yet they made lawes and statutes concerning religion , and gods worship , with his approbation , without any such exception , as i have elsewhere proved . secondly , god himself ( as i formerly touched ) used the ministry , assistance of cyrus , artaxerxes , darius , with other heathen princes and magistrates , for the building of his temple , and advancement of his worship , for which they made decrees , statutes ; notwithstanding this objected reason reflects more upon them and their electors , then on such who are christians by externall profession . thirdly , most christian kings and magistrates in the world , ( even those who claime to be hereditary , as the yet continued formes of their coronations and instalments manifest ) come in by the peoples election , as well as such members of parliament who are eligible , yet you cannot without disloialty and absurdity , deny them authoritie in matters of religion and church-government . fourthly , your selfe doe not onely grant , but argue , b that every private man hath , yea ought to have power to elect and constitute his own minister : and no doubt you will grant , that private men have power likewise to set up independent congregations , which have authority to prescribe such covenants , lawes , and rules of government , discipline , worship , as themselves think most agreeable to the word : if then they may derive such an ecclesiasticall authority to independent ministers and churches , why not as well to parliaments and synods likewise by the self same reason ? fifthly , it is cleare by sundry instances in scripture , and your owne text , that god doth oft times make use of unsanctified persons , and the rude multitude , ( whom you so much under-value ) to advance his glory , propagate his gospel , promote his worship , vindicate his truth , and edifie his church : he can poure a spirit of prophesie upon c a baalam , a saul , a gamaliel , a persecuting high-priest ; he can make a d judas an apostle , yea send him to preach and build his church , as well as a peter : wee read in the evangelists , that none were so forward as the vulgar e multitude to beleeve , follow , professe christ , and embrace the gospel , though many of them did it out of sinister ends . therefore they may well have power to chuse such persons who shall and may make lawes to promote the gospel , and government of the church of christ . sixthly , those who have no skill at all in law , physick , or architecture , have yet judgment and reason enough to make choice of the best lawyers , physitians , architects , when they need their help . those who are unfit , or unable to be members of parliament themselves , ( as most of the electors are ) have yet had wisdom enough in all ages , and especially at this present , to elect the most eminent & ablest men for such a service : those who are unmeet to be kings , magistrates , commanders , or ministers , have yet skill enough to chuse able persons for such offices , & power to delegate to them such parliamentary , royall magisteriall , pastorall authority , as is necessary for their severall offices , which those who elected them never had actually , but onely originally or virtually in them , not to use , but derive them unto others : why then may not our free-holders , who have voices in electing the members of our parliaments , and the commonalty to the land , ( whom you scandalously terme , the vilest and most unworthy of men , though there be a degree of vulgar people viler and unworthier then they in all respects , who have no votes in such elections ) have sufficient authority in them to elect and nominate such fitte , persons , who by virtue of such nomination or election shall have right and power to enact lawes , statutes , in matters of religion , worship , and church-government , not dissonant from gods word , to which themselves and others by gods owne ordinance must submit ? if the common people , who neither are nor can be parliaments , emperors , kings judges , magistrates , ministers , have yet a lawful power to make others such by their bare election & to give them such authority and power as themselves never actually were or can be possessors of , then why by the self , same reason may they not likewise delegate a lawfull ecclesiasticall legislative authority in church-affairs , to their elected parliamentary and synodall members , which was never actually in themselves , as well as mr * goodwin delegate the power of determining who should be fit persons to receive the sacrament , and to become members of his independent congregation , to eight select substitutes , which was never actually vested in himselfe , nor transferrible thus to others by any law of god or man ? why may not a man bring an ecclesiastical or spiritual extraction out of a secular root , ( contrary to your paradox ) as * well as a regall , magisteriall , parliamentall , mnisteriall extraction , out of a meere popular or servile root ? or the best strong waters out of the vilest lees ; the richest minerals out of the coursest earth ? the most orient pearles out of the basest oisters ? in one word , the very choice these your vilest and most unworthy of men have made this parliament , may for ever refute this childish reason , the corner-stone of your independent fabricke , fastned together with independent crochets , unable to abide the test . therefore notwithstanding this your reason , our present parliament may and ought , in point of right & duty to make binding laws for regulating church-government , restraining heresies , schismes , innovations , erronious doctrines , unlawfull conventicles , and for setling the purity of gods worship and religion , notwithstanding this objection ; and with as much reason , justice , raise , and establish a new church-government , suitable to gods word and the civill state , as reforme or repeale the old , ( which grew to burden some and offensive ) till independents can shew us better grounds against it then any yet produced : and informe us , why our whole representative church and state should not of right enjoy and exercise as great or greater ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , over all particular persons and churches who are members of our church and realme , as any independent minister or congregation challenge or usurp unto themselves , over their owne members ( this being the true state of the question and not whether * one particular church , or parish , hath superiority or iurisdiction over another ? as some mistake it ) without yea against both law & gospel for ought they yet have made appeare ? i shall say no more in so clear a case , but refer the author to the high court of parliament , ( whose undoubted priviledges he hath presumptuously undermined by the very roots ) to crave their pardon , or undergo their justice for this and other his anti-parliamentany passages , diametrally contrary to his , our , their late nationall vow and covenant , which they cannot without highest perjury permit any wilfully thus to violate in the most publike manner . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a91190e-220 a eccles. 4. 4. b gal. 4. 1● . c page 1. 2. d the apologeticall narration , mr sympson . a reply of two of the brethren , with others . e a reply of two of the brethren to a. ● . p. 111. f master iohn goodwins θεομαχια . * he should say ●●eer , where the government is left arbitarry . * exod. 25. 40 heb. 8. 5. * 2. chron. c. 〈…〉 * ezra 3. 10. 12. hag. ● 3. to 10. * exod 24. 7. deut. 31. 11. iosh. 8. 34. 2 kings 23. 2. 2 chro. 34. 30 neh. 8 2 , 3 , &c c. 9. 3. c. 13. 1. ier. 36. 6. to 24 luke 4. 16. act. 13. 15 , 27 c. 15. 21 , 31. col. 4. 16. 1 thes. 5. 27. * 1 cor. 14. 40 † belike the reed by which he measured it was independency . * ezech. 40. & 41. * rev. 21 22. 1 cor. 9. 13 , 14. heb. 7. 13. * but very unreasonable that christ , the church , state , synod , parliament , should be subject to your dictates , not you to theirs . * this rule holds firm in all church-assemblies , synods , parliaments , elections by suffrages whatsoever . † your party are most guilty of it , who without discovery or proof of your new-way , will have us blindly to submit unto it as the onely way of christ . * 1 cor. 13. 5 , 7. * 37. h. 8. c. 17. 1. e. 6. c. 1. 1. eliz c. 1. see my breviate against bishops encroachments , &c. the vnbishoping of timothy and titus . the catalogue of authors in all ages concerning the parity and identity of bishops and presbyters . the antipathy of the english lordly prelacy . the quench-coale , &c. nota. * lev. 19. 17 gal. 4. 16. c. 2. 11. 14. tit. 1. 13 , 14. rev. 3. 13. will justifie me herein . * pro. 23. 23. maximè ami●● veritas . * rom. 13. ● . 1 pet. 2. 14. * iustinian codicis . l. 1. tit. 8. socrates . scholast. . eccl. inst. l 7 c. 5. l. 5. c. 4 , 5 , 15 , 20 , 21 23. l. 4. c. 12 , 13. l. 2. c. 33. * see 35. el●z c. 1. † see 35. eliz. c. 1. none are conventiclers but hereticks or schismatickes , who wholy seperate themselves from our publique assemblies established by law . * 2 chro. 15. 8 , to 16. c. 34. 29 , to 33 8. 29 10. ezra 10. 3. neh. 9. 38. c. 10. 1. &c. † psal. ● .. 8 , 9. psal. 72. 8 , to 18. ps. 82. 8. ps. 86. 9. ps. 65 ● . ps. 67. 2 , 3. 4. 5. isa. 2. 2 , 3. c. 9. 22 , 23. c. 11. 9 , to 16. c. 54. 1 , 2 , 3. c. 60. 3. to 22. mich : 4. 1. to 5 mal. 1. 11. zach. 8. 22. act. 13. 46 ; 47 48. matth. 28. 19 , 20. mar. 14. 15. rom. 10. 18 , 20. c. 11. 4. isa. 62. to the end . 1 pet. 2. 9. 10. * matth. 3. 12 c. 13. 24. to 52 c. 25. 32. 33. a joh. 6. 70 , 71 b see iudges , samuel , kings chronicles , nehemiah , ezra , and all the prophets . c see pauls and johns , yea christs epistles to them , rev. 2 , & 3. 1. cor. 11. 13 to 34. c. 12. 12. 27. d mat. 24. 14. 15. c. 26. 16. luk. 14. 23 , &c. c. 13. 23 , 24. † ● chro. 13. ●● to 14. c. 28 , & 29. 2 chro. 5. 2 , &c. c. 6 , & 7. c. 15. 9 , to 29 c. 17 7 , 8 , &c. c 20 3 , 4. 5. c. 24. ● , to 16. c. 29. 3 , to 36. c. 30. v. 31. c. 31. 29 , to the end . c. 35. 1 , to 19. ezra & neh. throughout . esth. 9. 17. to 32. * dan. 7 9 , 13 ●● . * 1 cor. 13 , 11 , 12. c. 14. 20. c. 3. 1. 1 pet. 2. 2. heb. 5. 12 , 13 , 14. 1 ioh. 2. 11. to 15. ephes. 4. 15. 16 † 1 tim. 3 6. † ezek. 16. 13 * rom 13. 1 , to 7. 1 tim 2 1 , 2 , 3. tit. 3. 1 1 pet. 1. 2. to 24 c. 3. 1. 1 cor. 7. 1 , to 18. eph. 5. 22. 23. c. 6 1. to 10 col. 3. 18 , to 25. † see my catalogue , &c. the unbishoping of timothy and titus . a breviate , and antipathy of the english lordly prelacy . † see my humble remonstrance against ship-money . * deut. 12. 8. judges 17. 6. 1. 21. 25. † yea , never more dangerous errours refuted , suppressed , then in the 4. first general councels , and some synods since , as that of dort , and other protestant synods in the harmony of confessions : where therefore they determine rightly , you must submit unto them ; where they confirm apparent dangerous errours , there you may vary from them when proved such . * th●●e are the true grounds of all s●parations . esa 65. 5. luk. 18. 10 , to 16. iude 18. 19. witnesses the novatians , donatists , of old : the severall orders of monks , nuns ▪ eremites , anchorites , in the church of rome , and their new order of jesuits , ●●th of them pret●nding ; more sanctity and strictnesse then anoth●r , and so severing in their different orders , habits , monasteries , rules , covenants , one from another . † mr. good●●ns theomachia p 24 , 25. the reply of two of the brethren passion . * epistle to the reader , & p. g. 11. 33. 4● . to 52. b page 18. 22. 52. and else ▪ gamaliell himselfe no apostle , nor christian , from whose words you yet take your text as gospell , was not altogether of this opinion . * see epiphanius , basil , augustine , and all the bookes of or against any hereticks and sectaries . * matth. 4 6. * mat. 24. 11. 23. to● 27. c. 7. 15. 2 cor. 11 13. 14 , 15. ephes. 4. 14. 2 thes. 2. 9. 10. rev. 13. 2. to 18. 2 ioh 10. 11. f gal. 2. 4. to 1● * rom. 19. 15. 16 , 26. h see iustinian cod. l. 1. tit. 8. 1. eliz. c. 2. 35. eliz. c. 1. 2. i page 21. 1 k see the london ministers petition against it . l see 1 cor. 21. 26. ● 10. 32 , 33. m see p. 30. to 52. o p. 3 , 4. 11. 12. p ezra 1. 1. to the end . c. 4. 17. to 24. ● . 6. 2. to 17. c. 7. 12. to 28. neh 2. 1. to ●7 . 2 chron. 36. 22 , 23. isay 44. 28. dan. 3. 29. c. 6. 25 , 26 , 27. ionah 3. 5 , 6 , 7. r acts , 24 , &c. 〈◊〉 . & 26 , & 27 , 28. 2 tim. 4. 10. 17. ſ ● tim. 2. 1 , 2. 3. rom. 13. 1. to 7. tit. 3. 1 t matt. 10. 17 , 18. 21. c. 26 , 27. q tim. 2. 1 , jer. 19. 7. v page 38. to 40. amos 13. 9. a. 15. acts 4. 1. to 24. c. 5. 17. to 4. c. 6. 12 , 13. c. 9. 1 , 2. 3. c. 11. 2 , ● , 4. c. 16. 10. to 40. c. 18. 12. x pag. 30. 31 y amos 3. 3. * esa. 9. 6. see my twelve questions p. 7 , 8. pag. 48 , 49 , 50. this he ●ore ●●fly expressed in a sermon in febuary last . note . gamaliell & your text never taught you any such anti parliamentary doctrine . note . * the people having power to elect princes , magistrates , ministers , parliaments , synods have likewise authority to nominate such who by the rule of gods word may limit these particulars , though not by their owne bare authority , without or against the word . † every magistrate , parliament , and synod , have power to declare and enjoin what is necessary to be beleeved , practised , by or according to gods word , not without or contrary to it . a see my appendix to the soveraigne power of parliaments and kingdomes p. 122. to 131. † twelve considerable queries p. 4 , 5. independency examined p. 2 , 11 , 12. b page . 25 , 26 c num. 22. 35 c. 23 , & 24. 1 sam. 10. act. 5. 34 to 40 joh. 11. 49 , to 53. d ioh. 6. 70 , 71 mar. 6. 7. to 14 e matth. 5. 1. c. 13. 1 , 2. c. 8. 18. c. 9. 36. c. 14. 14 , 19. c. 11. 32 , 33 c. 21 8 , 9 , 10. luk. 8. 17 , 19. c. 8. 44 , 45. joh. 6. 2 , 5. mar. 12. 12 , 37. luk. 13 17. c. 18. 43. c. 2● . 38. c , 22. 1. joh. 7 40 43. &c. c. 8. 2. act. 2. 47. * this he confessed , and appeared by a writing before the committee of plundered ministers . * or as well as himselfe extracts many spirituall doctrines out of gamaliels secular speech in these very sermons . * therefore your principall argument ; that the seven particular churches in asia had no iurisdiction one over another , ( being under different civil dominions , and not members of the selfe same christian republike , ) ergo the whol parliament and church of england have no iurisdiction over particular parish churches or independent congregations in england ; is a meere independency . the schismatick sifted. or, the picture of independents, freshly and fairly washt-over again. wherein, the sectaries of these times (i mean, the principall seducers to that dangerous and subtile schisme of independency) are with their own proper pensils, and self-mixed colours, most lively set forth to be a generation of notorious dissemblers and sly deceivers. collected (for the most part) from undeniable testimonies under their own hands, in print; for the more fair and full satisfaction, and undeceiving of moderate and much misled christians; especially by the outward appearance of their piety of life, and a pretence of their preaching sound-doctrine. / by john vicars. vicars, john, 1579 or 80-1652. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a95897 of text r200902 in the english short title catalog (thomason e341_8). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 139 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 26 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a95897 wing v326 thomason e341_8 estc r200902 99861523 99861523 113660 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a95897) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 113660) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 55:e341[8]) the schismatick sifted. or, the picture of independents, freshly and fairly washt-over again. wherein, the sectaries of these times (i mean, the principall seducers to that dangerous and subtile schisme of independency) are with their own proper pensils, and self-mixed colours, most lively set forth to be a generation of notorious dissemblers and sly deceivers. collected (for the most part) from undeniable testimonies under their own hands, in print; for the more fair and full satisfaction, and undeceiving of moderate and much misled christians; especially by the outward appearance of their piety of life, and a pretence of their preaching sound-doctrine. / by john vicars. vicars, john, 1579 or 80-1652. [8], 41, [1] p. printed for nathanael webb, and william grantham, at the grey-hound in pauls church-yard., london: : 1646. annotation on thomason copy: "june 22th". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng sects -england -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century. a95897 r200902 (thomason e341_8). civilwar no the schismatick sifted. or, the picture of independents, freshly and fairly washt-over again.: wherein, the sectaries of these times (i mea vicars, john 1646 22799 21 0 0 0 0 0 9 b the rate of 9 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-11 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-11 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the schismatick sifted . or , the picture of independents , freshly and fairly washt-over again . wherein , the sectaries of these times ( i mean , the principall seducers to that dangerous and subtile schisme of independency ) are with their own proper pensils , and self-mixed colours , most lively set forth to be a generation of notorious dissemblers and fly deceivers . collected ( for the most part ) from undeniable testimonies under their own hands , in print ; for the more fair and full satisfaction , and undeceiving of moderate and much misled christians ; especially by the outward appearance of their piety of life , and a pretence of their preaching sound-doctrine . by john vicars . for sions sake , i cannot hold my peace . isaiah , 62. 1. now i beseech you , brethren , mark them which cause divisions and offences , contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned , and avoid them . for , these , that are such serve not our lord jesus christ , but their own belly ; and by good words and fair speeches , deceive the simple . rom. 16. 17 , 18. london : printed for nathanael webb , and william grantham , at the grey-hound in pauls church-yard . 1646. to the right honourable , and most worthily to be highly honoured thomas adams , esquire ; lord major of the most famous and renowned city of london ; i. v. prayeth all encrease of gracious honour , here and of glorious happinesse , hereafter . right honourable : it was the sad and unhappy complaint of the prophet jeremy in his dayes , and in that ungracious and ungratefull city , jerusalem ; that no man among them was valiant for the truth . jer. 9. 3. nay , the lord himselfe , by the same prophet , seeming to be , as it were , transported with holy indignation and just jealousie of neglect of his honour , and worship , bids them run to and fro through the streets of jerusalem , to see and seek if they could find any one man that loved the truth . jer. 5. 1. yea , this penury of pious men was not only among the poor and mean men , ver. 4. but even among the great men and rulers of jerusalem , ver. 5 but , ô the honour and happinesse of this most famous , faithfull and ever renowned city of london ! this city of our god , of which ( most justly ) so many glorious things are , and may , and must be spoken , to the glory of god , and honour thereof ! over which , such a renowned and religious , such a valiant and vertuous governour is set ( verifying that of the prophet , nah. 2. 3. ( though there , iconfess , spoken in another sense : ) that our valiant men are in scarlet , even your good lordship , who have bin , as it were , purposely placed and appointed by god himselfe for these times ; and who are so valiant and couragious for the truth of your god , and the glorious work of gospell reformation , as cannot be dampt or daunted with any vaporous and seeming eclipsing clouds of unworthy disgusts raised by the selfish and elfish envy of schismaticall spirits , which of late have , only , passed over the faire face and cleer sun-shine of your honours piety and integrity ; for with unvanquishable valour and vigour of zeal for god and his truth , ( like a pious patriot , indeed ) your honour hath most gravely and graciously dispell'd them all , standing still , like an immoveable , invincible , and impregnable rock ; or rather running on , like the active sun in the firmament with so much the more resplendent beauty , and radiant lustre , in a sweet and swift course of constant piety and magnanimity , for the advancement of the immaculate cause of your god , and the common-wealth , to the high honour of god , and singular joy and comfort of all the true presbyterian saints and sons of our english sion , both in city and country . ride on prosperously , then , ( my most honourable good lord , ) in the cause of truth and righteousnesse , backt with the sacred suffrages and faithfull affections of very many thousands of most peaceable honest-hearted and god-honouring covenanters , both in city and country , yea , even of a whole nation of loyall and loving scottish-brethren , who , with us , most justly look for and long for the happy and holy consummating of a glorious reformation of the kingdoms grievances , and establishment of a blessed church-discipline , according to the minde of our great master christ jesus , and the plain literal meaning of our sacred solemne covenant . and hence ( my honourable good lord ) i have bin humbly bold ( emboldened by your honours much experienced candor and courtesie toward me , the meanest and most unworthy of all your lordships votaries ) to dedicate this little , but , i hope , very necessary and usefull treatise ( considering these seducing staggering and unstable-times ) as a small symbol , and though poore and plain , yet true tessera of my bounden gratitude , to your honours pious patronage : thus , i say , both , to take fit occasion to manifest my obliged hearts thankfulnesse for your lordships many most free and friendly favours ; as also , by this , though succinct , yet sincere discovery of the sly and subtile dissemblers and deceivers of our dayes , and consequently the mayn molesters and disturbers of the happy settlement of a godly church-government among us ; as also thus to adde , at least , one small stick to encrease the flame ( though i am confident i need not ) of your good lordships godly zeale in this glorious work , so much and so maliciously opposed by the impious and impudent sectaries of these most sadly distracted times . which , humbly hoping your honour will with accustomed christian candor , and exuberant friendly favour , candidly accept ; the continued , yea perpetuated encrease of all honour and happinesse to your good lordship , in this your renowned majoralty , and to the period of your pious pilgrimage , shall be the daily devoted prayers of your honours most humble and eve● to be commanded , observant servant in the lord , john vicars . to the godly and impartiall reader . the great dishonour ( good reader ) which i have frequently observed to be done to my god , in the abuse of his truth ; and the strange cockering of errours and schismes , by truths too violent and virulent adversaries and antagonists : together with the familiar vilifying and extream undervaluing of truths loyall presbyterian propugnators , and the most unreasonable high esteeme and loud and lofty elogies which the foolish world falsly and fondly blatters forth in prayse of schismaticall independents , and the rest of these times most seditious and dangerous sectaries , whose great ( and yet most just ) unhappinesse it is , that they cannot mayntain any thing ( for the most part ) of what they schismatically professe , but by grosse untruths , brainsick enthusiasmes , fictitious new-lights , aliàs , old-blasphemous errours , and too often by down-right-lyes . all these respects , i say , have made mee ( the meanest and most unworthy of ten thousand of my godly presbyterian-brethren ) in fervent zeal to god and his truth , and in pure love and loyalty to her faithfull presbyterian friends , thus ( according to my talent ) to set pen to paper , and ( with as much faithfulnesse as resolved freedome ) with their own hands to stop the mouths , and with their own pens to give a check to the untrue tongues of these so high pretenders to such soundnesse in doctrine , and integrity of life and conversation , as they themselves and their schismaticall scycophants do most frothily and falsly brag and boast them to be . and although i doe ( as i must ) make account , herein , to passe through bad report , as well as good report for this my pains : yet , so i may bring any honour to god , and his most precious truth , and adde ( though but a mite of zeale ) toward the just vindication ( which i have in some measure , in this treatise endevoured ) of my reverend good friend , because truths fast friend , i mean , learned and religious mr. edwards , in his christian faithfulnesse and godly fervour ( especially in his learned and elaborate antapologie , that invincible weapon , which hath given our independent sectaries such an incurable wound as they will never be able to claw off or heal up ) against these truths most crafty and calumniating adversaries ; yet notwithstanding , i say , i passe or care not ( having , i praise my god , that murum aheneum , the testimony of a good conscience within me ) for all the false and flashy slanders , that any , or all of them can strugle to asperse and spatter mee with . however , beseeching the lord that this my poore and honest labour may produce so much good , as either to open the eyes of some pious and plain-hearted seduced-ones ( as , many such , i am verily perswaded , are among them , who heartily desire to know and love the truth ) if it be the lords good pleasure ; or , at last to stablish and confirme the hearts of those that already , really and cordially love the truth and peace , and heartily hate schisme and disorderly confusion , i rest , thine to serve thee in the lord jesus ; john vicars . the names of the five pious apologists , principally mentioned in this treatise . master thomas goodwin . philip nye . william bridge . jeremiah burroughs . sidrach simpson . the names of the seven religious remonstrants , mainly also mentioned , in this work . master william greenhill . thomas goodwin philip nye . william bridge . jeremiah burroughs . sydrach simpson . william carter . together with divers other heads of the independent faction . the schismatick sifted . having , not long since , dilucidated and plainly painted forth , to the sight of all ( in my picture of independency ) the basis or ground of that , as unhappy , as unholy-schisme of independency , to be spirituall-pride , self-seeking , and most grosse ingratitude to god and man : and having of late , and long time indeed , had many sad and serious thoughts , what should be the reason of the so constant and great growth of all-sorts of sectaries among us , which , as the superstructure , on that triple-foundation , have ( according to our old proverb , too true at this time , ill weeds grow apace ) mightily increased , and grown marvellous rife and ranke in the garden of god ( for want of serious and seasonable weeding ) to the great endangering , choking and stifling of the holy and wholsome herbs and flowers of unity , true peace and piety ; at last i found by sad and bad experience , that beside the great want of care and sedulity in the gardiners and guardians ( under god ) of his garden , the church , faithfully and effectually to weed and dresse it , i mean , through the strange impunity and intolerable toleration of sectaries and schismaticks , so out-facingly to flourish and sprout out among us ) beside this , i say , satan that old serpentine-seducer , had made use of an old sly stratagem of his , herein , to wit ; that those pernicious weeds should grow-up , and shoot-forth exceeding like unto most sweet and fragrant flowers and wholsome herbs , whereas , indeed , upon proof and experience , being used and smelt unto , they were nothing so , but , contrariwise , exceeding bitter , bad , poysonous and unwholsome . but , to speak plain-english ( for , since they so crave and cry-out for liberty of conscience , to do what they list , unjustly : i hope it is much-more lawfull for mee to desire liberty or freedome of speech , ( to speak nothing but truth plainly and honestly ) and to leave allegoricall expressions , and ( if it be lawfull in these doubling days ) to call a spade a spade , which i am resolved to do , yet with all possible christian moderation and godly temper that may be , considering the subject i write of ; i find , i say , that the two mayn stratagems which sathan useth , at this time , to cheat & deceive the world , yea , even many of the truly godly-party ; indeed , and to cause all sorts of schismes and errours thus to increase and multiply among us , i mean , especially , that most sly and subtile ( and therefore the most dangerous ) schisme of independency ; the two mayn stratagems , i say , for the more uncontroulable propagation hereof , are ; first , a popular appearance and outward habit of holinesse , ( if there be any more , i beseech them to let us see it by integer practice ) of life and conversation ; for , come and talk with any of our moderate ( if not neutrall ) or tender-conscienced even presbyterians , who ( many of them ) stand , as it were , on tip-toe , wavering which way to stand or fall , and ask them how it comes to passe , and possibly can be , that seeing these independents , anabaptists , &c. broach , and preach and practise such dangerous opinions and unwarranted church-ways ( as they call them ) to the great distraction and disturbance of the godly peace and tranquility both of church and state , when we have given them cleer demonstrations from the fountain of truth it self , that their ways and opinions are not according to christ and scripture-grounds ; yet , still , there answer is , o , i dare not but think and speak well of them , and hold them to be good christians , because they walk so holtly and religiously ; and also ( say they , in the second place ) because they preach and teach as sound doctrines as any of our presbyterian-ministers . and thus , i say , upon these two hinges turns the door of independents growing hopes of impunity , and a continued good opinion , even , i say , among our own presbyterian party , whereby , doubtlesse , they are greatly mistaken in them , and , i feare , grosly gulled by them , and , so , wrong the truth , in countenancing and encouraging her enemies , and retarding the work of reformation . for a briefe answer to both which ; though i intend not to enter into a polemicall dispute of these things ( which , i know would prove as endlesse as fruitlesse , especially with them who are familiarly known to love to live , salamander-like , in the fire of hot and heady disputes ) yet , i trust , by gods gracious assistance to give the godly , judicious and impartiall readers such pregnant proofs and demonstrative and reall testimonies ( and that briefly too ) of the exceedingly to be feared falsity and great mistake of both these , in our independents and their brother-sectaries , that they must in conscience , certainly , confesse the invalidity and weaknesse of their opinions and assertions of them , and see and say , that they are , surely , mistaken in them , and palpably deceived by them . to begin , then with the last of these first ; whereas it is pretended by some of our own , that they dare not but speak and think well of independents , because ( as they say ) they preach as sound-doctrines as any of the best-presbyterians doe : hereunto i answer , first , in generall ; that although i deny not , but that oftentimes they preach sound-doctrine ; yet , they frequently intermix much of their own unsavoury and unfound leven of false-opinions , together with the sound-doctrines , which they deliver . witnesse , that vehement , pernicious , yea even most damnable plea for a toleration of all opinions and liberty of conscience , the high-way to ruinate and destroy all religion and conscience ; together with their most ungodly inveighing against , both in pulpits and presses , that godly church-discipline , which is regulated , as neere as may be , by gods sacred word , and the pattern of the best and most purely reformed churches in europe ; and only crying-up a most licentious , unlimited and independent-destructive government of their own ungrounded invention ; whereby ( by a cleere and undeniable necessary-consequence ) they most undiscreetly , yea , irreligiously-endevour to overthrow and utterly , i say , to ruinate all sound-doctrine and pure truth it self . for , as it cannot be denied by any that the word of god soundly preached , and the sacraments purely administred , are gods field of corn , his precious vineyard , his garden of fragrant flowers and wholsome herbs ; and , as , a wise gardiner , or provident husbandman or vine-dresser , when he hath planted a garden or vineyard , or sown a corn-field , presently takes care to build a wall , or make a strong fence or hedge about the same , to preserve them from hurtfull beasts ; which otherwise would break-in , destroy the flowers or grapes , and root up and utterly spoyle the good corn : so ( although in the first place , it must be most justly granted , as i said before , that sound-doctrines , and the sacraments rightly administred , are the garden of god , and do contein the body and substance of soul-saving-truth , as being the fountain and foundation thereof ; yet ) it is as true , that godly-order , and scripture-discipline , or church-government is the hedge , wall , or strong-fence , which god , the most prudent and provident gardiner or husbandman , of this his pretious , garden , vineyard , or field of corn , hath planted and built round about the same , both to keep in safety and security the specious and pretious flowers , herbs , corn , and grapes , for the pious professours of his word and truth to be nourisht , cherisht and fed by them to eternall-life ; and thus to keep out the noysome and hurtfull wild-beasts and boars of the forrest , ( i mean , all sorts of tyrannizing misbelievers , hereticks , papists , and prophane atheists ) and all crafty foxes , yea , even the little-foxes ( i mean , anabaptists , antinomians , independents , seekers , and such like libertines , ) who , otherwise , all of them ( this wall , hedge , or fence being pluckt up or taken away ) would soon run in , ruinate and root up and destroy the pretious corn , fragrant flowers , and tender grapes thereof ; even utterly overthrow the fountain and foundation of sound-doctrine , and put in poyson of errours , and blasphemous and most dangerous , yea , damnable opinions and heresies among them , i say to the utter undoing and overthrow of the foundation or fountain , even of sound-doctrine and truth it selfe . this , i conceive , is a most faithfull and undeniable truth ; and ( though i know all sorts of sectaries will carp , snap and snarl at it ) shall therefore satisfie me , and may also , ( i think ) satisfie all other godly and moderate christians , who desire to be wise with sobriety ; but , if it will not , then to come to particulars , and so more closely to the point in hand . is not , to broach and preach that most wicked and accursed doctrine of toleration of all religions ( as i toucht before ) yea , of all heresies , errours , sects and schismes , under that slie , subtile , ungrounded and most ungodly pretext of liberty of conscience , forsooth , is not this , i say , a preaching of false-doctrine ? is not the broaching and preaching of the scripture , not to be the word of god ? of the performance of holy duties and expression of godly sorrow for sin , and penitent praying for forgivenesse of sin ; yea , and the performance of all these with an honest , humble , self-denying and christ-seeking broken-soul , to be called or counted no better than casting dirt ( as it were ) into gods face ? are not all these , my brethren , together with exceeding many more such like , yea , some far worse ( if it may be ) blasphemous and damnable doctrines and enormous opinions , set forth at large by reverend master edwards , in his gangraena , are not all these , i say , palpable preaching and broaching of false-doctrines ? and , if not all of them , yet many of them preached by our so admired independents ; and either few or none of all the rest , are at any time preached against ( nay are they not countenanced and encouraged ) by them ? wherefore , if any shall , still , object and say , that those forementioned dangerous opinions , and the rest related by master edwards are not the opinions of the more solid and temperate independents ; but , are the anabaptists , antinomians , and such like : i answer , they are moderate and most seeming solid independents which plead and preach mightily for toleration , and liberty of conscience , which , most directly are the inlets , open sluces , and wide-gaps for all the rest to rush and gush in amongst us ; and therefore , distinguish them as you please : and call them what you will , hereof i am most confident ; that though our most moderate and supposed most discreet independents may seem only in some things to differ and vary , and in their heads or brains ( as i may say ) to be somwhat distant from some of the rest of the dangerous sectaries ; yet are they all like sampsons foxes ) fast tyed by their tayls , with destructive firebrands of dissention , division , and confusion between them , to destroy ( as much as in them is ) the good-corn of gods-field , by their most ungodly struglings , studies , plots , and calumnies , to ruinate the wall , and pluck-up the hedge or safe fence , i mean ( as we all too sensibly feel at this day ) to hinder and oppose with all might and malice , power and policy , the settlement of the godly government and scripturall-discipline of our pious and peacefull presbyterians . and are these , now , the sound and orthodox men , that are so highly commended and blazoned abroad for their sincerity and soundnesse in doctrine ? who , thus dare , so boldly ( yet craftily , i confesse ) broach abroad such false doctrines , and thus preach and prate against gods most pure and soul-saving truths ? certainly , then , am i mightily mistaken . but , now , to come to the second or other main part of our own presbyterian friends common-plea for independents , & the other cause of their great growth amongst us , viz. their holines of life , which we have great ground and cause to feare , ( and more than to feare ) is but pretended and in appearance ; which , indeed , is , i say , the main thing i here intend to insist on , and principally to prove against them ( as i have promised ) and that , under their own hands , by most undeniable testimonies . and , herein , i shall first desire briefly to premise thus much by way of introduction to what is to follow ; namely , that this hath ever been ( even in all ages and times ) satans old-cloke , too well known to be almost worne quite thread-bare , by frequent and familiar use among deceivers . for if we look back to by-past times , and read ecclesiasticall histories , we shall most truly know , and unquestionably understand that those grand and grosse hereticks , and ring-leaders to dangerous and damnable heresies , errors , and schismes in the church of god , especially in the primitive churches , and former times , as arrius , pelagius , arminius &c. were all of them , men of extraordinary outward holy lives , and ( to see to ) of most integer conversation , even to generall admiration and approbation for their parts and piety , and to the singular love and liking of all the people among whom they then lived ; and yet they were , all of them , most notorious , dangerous , yea damnable hereticks . and look up also , even to our most blessed saviours time , and there we shall finde the scribes and pharisees to be outwardly , such demurely seeming saints ▪ such pure and holy persons to see to , that it was an universally received opinion , among all the common-people , the jews of those times , that if any two men in the world should goe to heaven and be saved , it was a scribe and a pharisee ; and yet , by our saviours own testimony , these were most notorious dissemblers , deceivers , and horrible hypocrites ; and , indeed , one main foul fault among them also , was , a most vile perverting of the law , to their own ayms and ends ; and teaching false-doctrines , and their own false glosses and intentions , in stead of sound-doctrine , which very thing made our blessed saviour himselfe to inveigh most bitterly against them as notorious hypocrites ; as is most evident in all the foure evangelists . the experience whereof also made the blessed apostle paul say ( having found false apostles in his times also , deceitfull-workers , transforming themselves into the apostles of christ ) that it was no marvail , for , satan , himselfe ( sayes he ) is transformed into an angel of light . and indeed there is very great politick reason hereof ; for , should not hereticks and schismaticks , first , put-on that brave embrodred-cloke of seeming holinesse , to dazle the eyes and understanding of their honest , innocent proselites ( as i believe many of these to be ) who i pray that had any light and sight of reason and religion , would so easily have received their so dangerous opinions , or damnable doctrines ? if satan should at first shew his cloven-foot , and the hornes on his head ( as fools , formerly , were made to believe the devill had such , to be frighted by them ) who , i say , would not , then fly from him , as , easily discerning him to be a devill ? so , i say , if heretical , erronious , & schismatical deceivers should at the very first shew the inside-danger & poyson of their aymes , plots , self-interests and designes intended by their heresies , errours , and schismes , who would so easily and instantly entertain them , and be so misled and abused by them ? therefore , dear christians take heed , for gods sake , of being taken with painted pretences of holinesse of life , in any man whatsoever he be : swallow not down , so easily , such gilded-pils ; or catching fish-hooks , which are onely covered-over with deceitfull baits to catch and undoe your poor plain-meaning soules . believe it , my christian friends , you try your mettalls by a very false and deceitfull touch-stone , if you look so on mens holy-lives and conversations alone ; nay , rather read , sound , and try men mainly and most especially by their soundnesse of doctrine ; for , if this fails , all is naught , i 'le warrant you . and that you may see 't is not mine , but the blessed apostle paul's judgement , and right rule of tryall , which cannot deceive , marke what he sayes , in two most pertinent places to this purpose . be yee followers of me , even as i also am of christ . no farther , or , no otherwise than i folow the lord jesus christ in sound doctrine and holinesse ; first and principally sound doctrine , and then holinesse : and to strengthen and back this to be his true meaning , indeed ; observe what this same blessed apostle , and faithfull servant of the lord sayes farther . there be some that trouble you , and would pervert the gospel of christ . but if either we ( even any of us apostles , though ever so holy ) or an angel from heaven ( for seeming sanctity or holinesse ) preach any other gospel ( or pretended truths ) than that which we have preached to you , let him be accursed to you . see here a time touch-stone , indeed , my friends , see first , to soundnesse of doctrine , without which , believe not nay , abominate , the seeming holiest men or angels , even angelicall-men that may pretend the greatest parts and piety that may be ; but having first , seen , by the right-rule , gods word , their doctrine to be sound , then , on gods name , search and see into their sanctimonie and integrity in life and conversation , and then you take the right way indeed , cordially to love and like , to follow , affect and imitate them . nay , i will bee bold to say and assure , and dare undertake to prove and justifie , by gods assistance , that , there is far more safety and sweetnesse for the soule to love and like , to follow and imitate , a christian or pastor , that is most sound and orthodox in doctrine and judgement , though subject to weaknesse : and humane infirmities : than him that seems to be most exact and strict in his outward walking and conversation , if he premeditately and invincibly ( against all perswasions and scripturall convictions ) goe on in the publike profession of errors and schismes ▪ destructive to the peace and edification of gods church and sound doctrine . but now without any farther digression ( having thus laid down these most necessary and pertinent premises ) i will by gods assistance come up close to the promised point , even our present main matter , touching the much boasted holines of life , of our independent sectaries , & shew how neer they come-up to down-right deceivers in their reall practice , testified , i say , by their own undeniable hand-writings . and , here , give me leave , good reader , in the first place for the better making fair way , and that , most briefly , for what follows ) to give unto thee , and from scripture it selfe , the perfect character , cognizance and description of a truly godly-man , a sure , pure saint , indeed , and sacred citizen of the new-jerusalem ; especially , in these two or three remarkable marks of him among divers others , viz. hee is such an one as speaks the truth from his heart ; and having thus spoken , promised , or sworn , keeps his promise , though to his own prejudice ; both these being fully and fairly connected and bound up together , in our blessed saviours most royall-law , and golden-rule : whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you , doe yee even so unto them : and then also , doe but consider herewith , what the spirit of the lord sayes , concerning the contrary practisers . he that loves or makes a lye , shall be shut out of the new jerusalem among dogs , sorcerers , whoremongers , murtherers , and idolaters . now , then , i say , if our independents be found ( and that by testimonies under their own hands ) to be such as speak not the truth from their hearts ; and when they have promised and covenanted , break their promise and violate their covenant ( witnessed , i say , by their owne hands against themselves ) yea , and that when as it could be no prejudice to their livelihood , or estates , save only ( perhaps ) to their ungodly private ends ; and such as do that to others , which they would not be content should be done to themselves : then can any truly-gracious or impartiall good-man choose but , at least , greatly feare that they are not so holy-saints & godly men as they should be , or as the world too vulgarly and easily takes them to be ? truly , me thinks , they cannot . thus , then , now , to come to the try all hereof ; and , here , i will , by way of preamble , tell the reader one pretty passage , not altogether impertinent to our present purpose , touching master peters & my-self , which briefly was this , i being occasionally ( about-half-ayeer since ) at westminster-hall , was there encountred by master peters , that most pragmaticall quicquid in buccam , &c. of whom i will only say this by the way , that , whosoever loves to laugh at a sermon ( which is satans musick ) let him go heare master peters preach . this gentleman seeing me singly walking in the hall , and being my old acquaintance , came unto me , together with his independent brother , master bachiler , who heard our conference all the while , which was this . o , master vicars ( says master peters ) certainly , a great deal of repentance must needs lye upon your soule . why , master peters ( said i ) what 's the matter , what have i done ? o ( sayes he ) in sadding and grieving the hearts of gods saints , as you have done in your book , which you call the picture of independency . why sir , ( said i ) pray tell me what 's amiss in it ? truly master vicars ( says hee ) 't is naught all over , ( just , like my self , he might have added ) naught all over . is it naught all over , master peters , said i ? then , i hope you have read it all over ; and if so ; then , i beseech you said i ) since , you know , dolosus versatur in generalibus , the deceiver loves to deale in generals , shew so much candor and ingenuity toward me , as to tell me one particular passage therein , which you can make evident to be false or naught , and i assure you ( said i ) i will yeeld you all the rest to be naught without any farther controversie ; whereunto , here was all his reply ; alas , master vicars 't is naught all over , naught all over ; which words he uttering in his old , quick blustering manner , instantly ran away swiftly from me , all , which , his brother bachiler can testifie ( if he will speake the truth ) to be most true , who stood by , and heard and saw all i have related , from the first to the last . and was not here , thinke you , a brave independent champion , fit to finde fault with other mens works , and then run away , when he should give account of his slanderous words ? but , now , to come to some more serious and sollid matter , and fully to make good and confirme what i have promised and affirmed , in the frontispice of this treatise , namely , that independents ( i meane very many of the best and bravest of them ) are a generation of notorious dissemblers , and sly deceivers . most sorry i am , the lord knows , that i can so truly ( indeed too truly ) say and assure these things against them ; but in regard of their so elated and selfe-flated conceit of themselves and others too-too high opinions of them ; and also the great injurie which gods cause receives thereby , many ways , therefore , for sions sake i cannot hold my peace , & for jerusalems sake i will not rest , until the righteousnes thereof ( and the unquestionable innocency & integrity of her presbyterians ) go forth as brightnesse . and for this end to add my poor mite of zeal ( what in me is ) to help to vindicate gods abused churches honour , against these her close and subtile enemies , who have made their great and gross untruths as so many satanicall stratagems and staulking horses , to abuse and disgrace even the godliest partie of the most innocent presbyterians , by thus suggesting and protesting their palpable untruths to the more moderate , indifferent , and too credulous presbyterians among us , whereas , themselves ( the lord knows ) are the main ( if not onely ) offensive and destructiue-partie , and all this , onely to uphold ( for ought that can , to this day , be discerned , to the contrary ) maintain and enlarge their too apparent spirituall-pride , and selfe-aymes and ends , which i conceive to be most vile and ungodly in them . and because master john goodwin , in his late supercilious and unsavorie treatise , entituled cretensis , pag. 5. sayes , that master edwards ( in his sectarystinging gangraena ) judges , so and so , onely of some few ( at least , as hee would have it ) of those that are the retrimentitious-party or dregs of the independents and other sectaries ( to use his own words and expression ) as if ( sayes he ) a man should judge of cheap-side , by the dirtie-channel that runs in the midst of it . i therefore , here ( omitting , purposely , the most notorious jugling of m. j. g. himself most properly & fitly termed cretensis ( that is to say a lyer ) both by himself , and by reverend m. edwards in his second part of his excellent gangraena ; and pretermitting also the most unworthy double-dealing of those two grandees of the independents , master burroughs and master greenhill ( and these are none , sure , of master goodwins retrimentitious partie ) in their unfaithfull dealing with master edwards , as hee hath most fully manifested to the world , against all these three , in his said second part of the gangraena , pag. 86 , 87 , 88 , &c. ) to omit these i say , as being so fully set forth as aforesaid , i will here in the first place shew to the godly and impartiall reader , diverse notable passages of some of the most eminent and highest prized independents , even of the five famous apologists , most cleerely setting forth , and that under their own hands , their most unfaithfull and deceitfull dealings with god and the world , and with their presbyterian-brethren . which i have extracted , and briefly culled-out from their so mightily magnified , and broadly bosted of apologeticall narration , attested and avouched under their own hands , of purpose ( as they , certainly , conceived and wee have justly deemed ) to paint out their own piety , and unspotted integrity to the world : whereas , contrariwise they have , thereby , even with their own pensils , blazoned abroad their own shame , and most unfaithfull double-dealing . first , then , i will begin with that poor delusive trick of theirs , of their pretended ( falsely so called ) exile or banishment out of england , which they themselves set forth in prima fronte libelli , in the very front and face of their apologie , to make the world take notice of that first and fair piece of their martyrdome , and to believe what rare suffering-saints and martyrs they were , insuffering , so sorely , for their tender-conscience sake . this you shall see apol. nar. pag. 2 & 3 where they tell you of their pitteous banishment , forsooth ; but , withall , fairely confesse it was a spontaneous or voluntary banishment , a banishment of their own choice and election , both for time , place , and company , ( and i may add , as easily undergone as undertaken ) for , they went into the choicest and fattest parts of all beautifull holland , no way pincht in body or purse ; for ( as reverend master edwards notes in his learned antapologie , and at large , most notably sets forth ) they were able ( some of them ) to spend two or three hundred pounds a year , and to doe other expensive acts besides . they went , i say , in their own time , were fitted with all conveniences for themselves and their families ; had brave company with them , gentlefolke of none of the meanest rank and quality ; and yet these call themselves gods poor exiles , or poor despicable , banished creatures : which , how fairly and fitly , let any godly judicious . christian , or even meer rationall creature which knows what banishment is , speake and judge by those forementioned premises . and now tell mee , good reader , whither these our independents be such fair dealers and truth speakers as the world deems them , and as the spirit of god would have them to be , according to the forementioned characters of the true saints and citizens of the new jeruselem . again , in their foresaid apologeticall narration , pag. 5 & 6 , they have these very words . for the congregations in england ( where , we were by the grace of christ converted , ( mark this ) and long exercised our ministry ) both in our own , and multitudes of the assemblies and parochiall-congregations thereof ( mark again those words good reader ) we make this sincere profession before god and all the world ( mark here again i beseech thee ) that notwithstanding all the defilements which we conceived to cleave to the true worship of god in them , or of the unwarranted power in church government exercised therein ; yet we ever esteemed and held this opinion of them , that they were the true churches and bodie of christ , and that the ministers thereof were true ministers , much lesse did it ever enter into our hearts to judge them antichristian : yea , wee always have protested that in these times ( pray marke these words well ) when the churches of england were most actually over-spread with defilements , and in the greatest danger thereof , we both did and would hold a communion with them , as the churches of christ , and baptized our children , and administred the lords supper in their parochiall congregations , and all this both before and since our returne from our foresaid exile . now , then , from all these premises , see and consider seriously , good reader , the independents most unjust and injurious separation from us , even under their own hands testified , and by such a deep and seeming-serious protestation , to god and the whole world protested against themselves ; wonderfull strange it is ( me thinks ) that truly , holy , and godly men should dare to deale thus , in so sacred and serious things ; nay those premises , touching our churches or congregations and ministers , being so granted by themselves , how most ungodlily and ungroundedly doe they now , and long time have forsaken our assemblies , as antichristian , and creep into corners , shops and chambers , and now adayes also some of their schismaticall brethren are not ashamed most impiously and most unjustly to preach , print , and prate against us and our assemblies directly under such notions , even as if we were abominable babylonians and antichristians . now truly my brethren , if this be to deale ingenuously , and to speake the truth from the heart , as becomes the truly godly saints and citizens of the new-jerusalem specified before to be davids character of a godly man , let any impartiall christian judge and determine . again , in the same apologeticall narration , pag. 24 & 25 , those five apologists and grandees of the independent faction , yea , those high-grown sauls that are taller then any of their presbyterian-brethren , by head and shoulders in parts and piety ( if we would believe the loud boasts of their sycophanticall proselites ) have these very words , in that foresaid place , evident to all that have eyes and understanding and wills , to see and read the same , viz. wee call god and men to witnesse , ( see how they here begin again with a deep asseveration ) that through the grace of christ , our spirits are , and have been so remote from a spirit of faction , division , pride , and singularity ( which are the usuall grounds of all schismes ) that we have expressed our constant forbearance , either to publish our opinions by preaching ( although wee had the pulpit free ) or to print any thing of our own or others for the vindication of our selves ( although the presses also were more free than the pulpits . ) marke good reader , i beseech thee , these their own words , and yet consider , how that most insolent and proud-spirited man mr. lilburn , in his most flashy and foul-mouthed letter , to ever to be honored mr. prinne , complains of the restraint of printers-presses , as a peece of their persecution forsooth , pag. 2 of his said letter ) or to act for our selves , or for our way . all these foresaid particular branches of their protested forbearance , were , indeed , by them , and the presbyterian city ministers mutually covenanted to be done on both sides , but how faithfully , religiously and conscienciously they have kept and observed the same , ( yea , notwithstanding their protesting before god and men , neither to write , preach , dispute , or any way to act for themselves or their church-way , and all this , thus promised , since their last returne into england , from their fore-mentioned pretty piece of banishment ) now we will see and discover , i say , how faithfully and fairly they have kept their word and engagement herein . although , 't is most true that learned and religious master edwards hath in his elaborate antapologie given his impartiall and unprejudiced reader aboundant satisfaction touching these things , and i might here multiply many testimonies from thence of our independents self-condemnation touching the premises : yet because i maynly endevour brevity in this little treatise , i will content my self with these few following most true and undeniable self-confutations extant there in print under their owne hands ; namely , that , even , not all these apologists ( who have thus protested , as yee have heard ) have not , according to their so deep protestation before god and men , forborn to preach or print any thing of their own in the behalf of their church-way . first , then , take master burroughs his self-conviction herein ; who , in his sermons and expositions on the three first chapters of hosea , hath preached and printed severall things about and for their church-way . as , for example ; in his first lecture on hosea the second , at , 1 , 2 p. 224 , 225. and the seventh lecture , hos. 1 , at , 11 , p. 173. and thirteenth lecture on hos. 2 , 15. together with many other places in those his lectures , now extant , in print . secondly , master simpson , another of these so deep protesters , as aforesaid ; in his sermon called reformations preservation , on isaiah 4 , 5. and on proverbs 8. 15 , 16. hath , there , many things for their church-way , and for a toleration , p. 25 , 26. 27. of those sermons . thirdly , also , master bridge , another of them , in his sermons , printed and published and entituled , babylons downfall ; and , that on zech. 1 , at 18 , 19 , 20 , & 21. together with many other , to be seen , in master edwards his most excellent antapol . afore-said ; but this truth being thus confirmed under the hands of three such eminent proofs and testimonies i think , it may give sufficient satisfaction herein ; besides , the very many other books and pamphlets . printed and reprinted for their church-way , since this parl. began , and since there covenant made to the contrary , all which for brevities sake , i say , and to avoid tediousnes , i willingly pretermit , and will not so much as mention , as , indeed , i need not , they being so notoriously known ( or may be known ) abroad to all that know ought herein . and as for their other kinds of acting , by themselves and others , in and for their church-ways advantage and advancement , i shall , i say , to avoid prolixity referre the reader , to the learned antapologie , p. 220 , 221 , &c. very worthy the reading for abundant cleer satisfaction in these premises . only i cannot forbeare to give thee one particular instance more hereof , which may ( mee thinks ) be instar omnium , to shew to the world their faithlesse craft and subtilty , yea , and most palpable double-dealing with their single-hearted presbyterian brethren , and thus , according to my promise , to let all men see ( that will not obstinately shut their eyes against such cleer and known truths ) what a godly-party and what holy-saints these independents are . the thing in brief , is this . about the beginning of the second yeer of the sitting of the parliament , the presbyterian pastors , in london , and the independents , met together , at reverend and religious master calamies house in aldermanbury , where , with mutuall consent , they all entred into an engagement one party to the other , that ( for advancing of the publike cause of a happy reformation ) neyther side should preach , print , or dispute , or otherwise act against others way ; and this to continue til both sides , in a full meeting , did declare the contrary , and by mutuall consent set each other at liberty , touching these things . and for the confirmation of this agreement , a writing or instrument was drawn , with full and cleer desire and assent of all , and also by all , there and then present , it was subscribed with every mans name ; and , this so done , was with a generall consent to be left , and so to abide , with master calamy , at his house , there to be seen at any time , by any of them that would have recourse unto it , to shew and see their agreement , all which was accordingly done , and this writing or instrument was left in master calamies custody . heere , now , let me hint this to the reader , by the way ; that , notwithstanding this writing or instrument of this their so solemne agreement ; no , nor their own fore-mentioned protestation of their own voluntary forbearance , so deeply ( but deceitfully ) professed and protested , in their apologie , to be so sacred unto them , & to be kept so strictly by them , with such deep silence ( for , these are their very words ) all these , i say , notwithstanding , they , in the interim , immediatly after , went on , in a too evident cōtrary practice , as hath bin before sufficiently declared ; and all these their protestations proved the most advantageous piece of policy , on their side , of any one that was , or could be done by them for the increasing of a party for them . just like the declarations set forth by king charles ( by means of the crafty bishops , in their late flourishing and domineering times ) that their should be no disputes , no preaching or printing on either side , for or against the arminian-points , which then were in great controversie : which declarations and inhibitions , being observed by many ministers , but not so , by the arminian-faction , was a mighty means to increase them , and to suppresse orthodox-doctrines . even so , i say , it fell out , heer , for , by this means of the agreement , nothing was preached or printed , or any way acted against their way , according to the foresaid agreement to hinder the growth of independents , on our side , ours making conscience most honestly and tenderly of their engagement . but , in the mean time , i say , many things were both preached and printed for it , as i have touched before ; which , if it were not apparent unfaithfulnesse and plain double-dealing , i know not what is . but now to come to this notable trick of theirs , acted by master philip nye , that notable independent-politician , and nimble-agent for their schismaticall church-way , which was this . the fore-mentioned writing or instrument of the mutuall agreement between the presbyterian and independent parties , being as aforesaid , left in the hands of reverend master calamy , by him to be kept and shewn and seen as occasion was offered ; it so fell out , that master nye came , one day , to master calamy , and pretended some reasons for his desire to see and borrow this writing of him for a little while ; whereupon , good master calamie , in his courtesie and singlenesse of heart , suspecting nothing amisse , but thinking he meant fairly , and would bring it again presently , as he had promised , let him have it . but he , after he had it , carried it away with him into yorkeshire , that so upon any complaints of the breach of the agreement when ours should have consulted with that writing , or shewn it against them , and brought their own hands subscribed thereunto , the writing was gone , and nothing now to shew against them ; as for conscience , they ( as it seem'd ) car'd not a rush for it ( no marvell , then , that they so cry out and plead for ( liberty of conscience ) for , this master nye hath ever since kept away this writing , and having been often intreated to restore it , his answer still hath been , that hee left it at hull among his other papers . this truth , is also fully related by reverend and faithfull master edwards , in his learned and most excellent independent frighting antapologie , and is backt also by the unquestionable testimony of our most grave and godly assembly of divines , in their most excellent answer to the seven independents most false and scandalous remonstrance , lately printed and published by the independents for the honour , forsooth of those seven authours thereof ; but which in the issue turned to their most just eternall , indelible dishonour . and are not these , then ( my deare presbyterian friends ) most soule blots and blemishes in so godly apartie , so gracious and holy saints , so cryed-up , rare christians , as independents are now a dayes hugely boasted to be ? doe these their practises , in word and deed answer to the characters of davids holy citizens of the new-jerusalem , to speake the truth from their hearts , and to keepe their promise though to their prejudice ? or , are they like our blessed saviours plain-dealing honest men , indeed , doing unto others , as they would bee done unto ? i know not , truly i cannot thinke they are . but to goe on , and to make their unfaithfull dealings , yet more evident and apparent to the whole world , and that , still , even under their own hands ; i shall now therefore , here , briefly add some few passages of their most gross double-dealing & unblushing slandering of the reverend and religious assembly of divines , in a most scandalous remōstrance of theirs touching a promised model of their new church way , most marvellously brag'd and boasted of , to be christs onely true and pure way of governing his church , and for the answerable production whereof they had been exceeding often and most earnestly urged and intreated , both by the reverend assembly , and by the religious pastors of london ; but , wherein all along from the first to this day they dealt most doubly , falsly and fallaciously . for even as at the first , when this often and urgent motion was made to them to bring in a modell of their church-government in writing to the assembly , & they accordingly promised it ; they were so far from faithfull performance hereof , first , that they secretly & sedulously had prepared printed , published & dedicated to the parliament their most proud , self-praysing ( & yet false ) apologetic all narration , never acquainting the assembly before-hand therewith , or tendring any writing of their church-government , to the assembly as they had promised , & in conscience ought to have done : just so , secondly , here , they again dealt with the reverend assembly ; for , wheras , stil the assembly earnestly moved them again and again ( for the surer and speedier composing of differences between them , and happier settlement of a blessed church government , so long and earnestly desired , as was hoped at least , by all ) that they would yet bring forth their modell of church-government ; yea , and since that also they had been earnestly importuned thereunto by master dury , a reverend , learned and godly minister of the hague in holland , ( as hath been testified by himselfe in a letter of his , sent to our assembly of divines , from the hague , march the seventh , 1643 , and extant in print , the substance whereof was to this effect . that he had oft required and intreated of these dissenting brethren , but never could obtein , to know the true points is difference , betwixt them and the other reformed churches . the like also had our london-ministers often desired but , could never , to this day , obtein their desire . but , now at length ( to come to the point ) with much fresh importunity , even almost beyond the bounds of modesty , they being thus urged , as it were , on all sides and not knowing how , with any credit , any longer to evade , they seemed ( now at last , i say ) to condescend to the thing ; and made choice of m. thomas goodwin to be the man that should manage the whole work of their promised modell ; to which purpose , hee also ( having undertaken the thing ) had for the space of at least six moneths , sequestred himself a part from his attendance on the assembly , and from his publike ministry , into the country , for his more conveniency to the work ; in which interim , ô what vaunts , brags and boasts had wee up and down by all their independent proselytes , what a rare new-modell was making , by m. thomas goodwin , and shortly to come forth , and all these brags , at least , three moneths before the famous upshot of all , and therefore great expectation was of it , on both sides , especially by all that were apt credulously to believe it , and all stood , as it were , gaping and gazing triumphantly , to see it . at last , about the end of the faid six moneths great and wonderfull expectation , that was rightly fulfilled , parturinnt montes nascitur ridiculus mus. for , in the issue of all , no modell could be produced , but instead thereof , they durst most ungodlily ( because most falsly ) and without all feare , or wit , or honesty ( as it may be feared ) exhibit to the assembly , a most absurd and scandalous apology or remonstrance , owned & subscribed by seven of their most eminent dissenting-brethren , which was afterward impudently printed and published ( and most craftily pretended to be so published clandestinely without the authours privity or consent ) under the name of a remonstrance ; both ( as they hoped ) to prop-up , if it be might be , the said authours crackt credit ; and also even perfidiously to dishonour and disgrace the whole right reverend assembly , if , i say , it had bin possible for them . in all this notwithstanding , both in their apologeticall narration , and in this their remonstrance , they seeme most seriously to professe and protest ( like cunning deceivers , indeed ) their integer carriage and honest meaning , in all the businesse , and their willingnesse and forwardnesse , always to make known what ever they held in church-government , together with their reasons , why , ( now , in the upshot of all ) they have not given in a modell of their church-government , laying the whole load ( just as our grandfather adam laid his offence upon god himself ) and the foul-fault of the only cause of their failing therein , upon the assembly of divines ; most shamelesly and falsly aspersing and bespattering the said reverend assembly , even all over ( in that remonstrance ) with very many intolerable slanderous accusations and imputations , false , i say , in every point and parcell of them ; as in the assemblies most excellent and abundantly satisfactory answer to the said remonstrance ( or reasons forsooth , of the independents or dissenting brethren ) lately set forth by authority of the honourable lords in parliament , may and doth most truly and abundantly appear . wherein pag. 4. they first prove the notorious unwillingnesse of these independents to make known what they hold in church-government , both from their own confession , in the forementioned apolog. narration , pag. penn'd and published by themselves , and also by the testimonie of reverend master durie aforesaid , as also of reverend and religious master apollonins , a learned divine of walachria , who also sent to the independents in london , an expresse letter , desiring them to informe him what their opinion was in those points , in difference betwixt them and the presbyterian-partie , that so he might not mistake them ( he being then appointed by the classis of walachria to set down the judgement of those reformed churches , concerning these controversies , now agitated with us in england ) but yet notwithstanding he could not obtain it from them , as himselfe hath complained , and as they themselves too well know , is most true against them . in brief , who ever desires most fully and exactly to see the falsity and notorious halting of that whole remonstrance and apologie of the independents , even all over , àcapite ad calcem ; let him seriously peruse that most full and fair answer of our learned , reverend , and religious assembly , and he shall receive abundant and most luculent satisfaction , both touching the assemblies most tender , fair and faithfull dealings with them all along ; and also touching the unquestionable truth of what i have herein writ of these unhappie independents , viz. their most unreasonable and irreligious slandering of the assembly , all along , in that remonstrance , not having delivered the truth from their heart , in any part thereof , but altogether spoken deceitfully or falsly in every of their assertions , or aspersions ( rather ) laid upon thē . and now , say ▪ good reader , are these dealings of these prime independent-remonstrants , the practises of precious saints ? are these fit actions think you , for the heads of a godly-party , so bigly boasted of , and most mightily blazed abroad in the world by the trump of flying ( i had almost said lying ) fame ? certainly then am i extremely mistaken in my poor ●udgement and knowledge in piety and probity . concerning which their most injurious molesting of the peace of gods church , and their unbridled endeavours to obtrude wayes and rules of governing gods church after their own conceited opinions , not having any ground out of gods word for the same ; i shall here desire to minde them of a most pertinent passage , very fit for this our present purpose , related by my reverend friend m. burton in his sermon entituled , for god and the king . where hee writes thus . were it a law in england as once it was among the loctians ; that whosoever would propound a new law , should come with a halter about his neck , that if it pleased not the senate , the hangman , being ready , should doe his office on him . this passage master burton , then , applyed ( and i confesse most fitly ) to the prelates of his time , for their illegall innovations , and this passage ( i verily believe ) i may as properly apply to our schismaticall independents and the rest and best of their fraternity of sectaries , who so strive and struggle to introduce ( by their new lights forsooth ) such new laws or ways of a church-government , which so justly may , and doe displease our honourable senate , and molest the whole kingdom , because they cannot prove or justifie them from gods word , if therefore that law were on foot and in force among us , at this time , and that these our sectaries should be made to come with halters about their necks , on that condition ; what a case , these our independents , together with their waspish-brethren , the anabaptists , and the rest of their rabble : of sectaries , would be in , let all wise men judge ? again , see yet farther , i pray thee , good reader , more of their palpable and apparent halting and double-dealing , still manifested under their own hands , against themselves , for , heretofore mr. john goodwin , in his innocencies triumph , his theomachia . pag. 48 , 49 , 50. and diverse others of his late pamphlets ; mr. burton also ( my old entirely beloved friend , for whom my soule mournes in secret , to see him so falne off from his former faithfull principles ) in his vindication , pag. 49 , 50 , 51. and pag. 68 , 69 , &c. christ upon his throne , master lilburn , also , in his frothie and most scurrilous letter , to ever to be honoured m. prinne ; the jesuiticall author or authors of the arraignment of mr. persecution , together with very many others , too tedious to recite , and to whose own abusive words , in their own writings , in high derogation of the parliaments honour and authority in ecclesiasticall affairs , for brevittes sake i refer the reader . all these independents and sectaries , i say , and many others of them did heretofore in those times of their then writings ( and , rebus sic stantibus ) when their fears were exceeding strong that the parliament would certainly establish the presbyterian-government , and their hopes extreme weake and flat of having their independent church-way set up , or so much as a toleration tolerated to them : o then i say , how was the power of parliaments in ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , or matters of religion , cryed down , abased and abused by m. goodwin , and the rest ? alas , for the parliament to take upon it the ordering of church government , or church discipline , o this was a most high and intollerable presumption in them , this was a most bold intrenching upon christs royall prerogative , with many such like terrible taxations , and heavy imputations of wrongfull usurping an antichristian legislative power and authority over the consciences ( forsooth ) of christs free born holy-ones : but now adays , of late , the case is altered , since the election of new-members of parliament in the house of commons , whereby they begin to dream , ( and i trust in god they doe but dream ) that their hopes are now upon the wing , and raised up to a high-flown pitch of conceit that the presbyterian-government shall either quite down , and not be established at all , or else so clog'd and clipt with commissioners , and such like supposed yokes , curbs and restrictions , as shall like pharao's chariots in the red-sea , take off the wheels , and make it drive on so heavily , that independents , anabaptists , and the rest , shall have fit and fair oportunities mightily to advance and hurrie on their own designes , their crafty ayms and ends , and in time bring them to perfection , and for the present enjoy a full allowance of that cursed cause of the ruine of all sound religion and sincere holinesse , libertie of conscience for all damnable sects and schismes whatsoever . o , now , therefore , i say , how is the power of parliament in matters of religion and setling of church government , cryed-up and magnified , yea , and wholy and onely , ( as it were ) appropriated to them as the main master builders of gods house , his church ? and as for the assembly of divines , they have nothing to doe therein , but so far onely as the parliament pleases to use or refuse them . witnesse , first , the peace-maker , lately printed and published , which now so struggles to uphold a peaceable-union between the parliament and the city of london , especially , ( wherein he does well , if that were all ) but why , ipray , is this designe so fairely prest and put on ? o , because we in the city may assure our selves ( sayes this peace-maker ) if through our dis-unions the parliament should miscarry in the main cause in hand , not all our most professed friends in the world can preserve us from perishing . marke these words well , good reader , the main cause in hand , and consider the times , now , and certainly the peace-maker must needs mean religion and church-government ( not the businesse of war ) to be the main cause in hand , and then take speciall notice also of his so zealously maintaining of the parliamentarie-covenant , but with this proviso , that it be in his sense , and with his glosse set upon it , which i should wonder how this author dares thus to doe ( but that i now see they dare to doe any thing ) since as he well knows what a most deadly danger the author of the protestation protested was in , in former dayes , for putting his sense , as the parliaments sense , upon that parliamentarie-protestation . besides , how does this peace-maker agree with that crafty caution-contriver , mr. i. g. in his twelve cautions against the hot-pressers of reformation ? ( as hee flashingly termes the pious presbyterians ) who cannot endure a parliamentary-covenant-reformation of religion , or rather , as i may say , a covenanting-preparative to the worke of reformation of religion , as in those his twelve serious cautions , he most subtilely and slily ( like himselfe ) insinuates , and therein paddles , and pleases his own contentious humour , pretending indeed onely piety , but ayming ( as is most easie there to be understood ) at his own most dangerous and factious ends , his principall practice and trade for these many years . besides this peacemaker , we have also one m. walwin , a most egregiously pharisaicall whisperer , pharisaicall , i say ; for , in his frothy whisper in m. edwards his eare , pag. 4. he takes occasion ( just as his independent masters , the five apologists did also , in their apolog. nar. of themselves , so he ) to magnifie himselfe , not whispering ( now ) but blowing a trumpet of his own high prayses , with a long-breath , and a lowd-stentorian-voice , about two pages long in quarto , and all to paint out his own person to be such a seraphicall and angelicall-saint , yea , as it were , of such an immaculate , and sublimely refined nature and celestiall-temper , as if there were nihil humani , in the man ; in so much , that , truly for my part , i professe sincerely i never read or heard of such a notorious self-flatterer in all my life ; yea , certainly far transcending the proud pharisee mentioned in the the gospell . this pharisaicall whisperer , i say , being , now , turn'd like a weathercock , with the winde of temporizing-policy hath these words in that piece of his whispering-stuff , pag. 4. as far as it can , in this nation ( there 's a juggle ) i am certain , it belongeth only to the parliament to iudge what is agreeable to the word of god , and not unto the assembly of divines . ah , sir , is the case thus alter'd , now ? must the parliament only be judge in matters of religion ? whereas , heretofore , neither parliament , nor assembly ( by our sectaries familiar sentence ) had any such power . nay , see how hee goes on . and god ( sayes he ) hath blessed all their undertakings , in a wonderfull manner , by the hands of conscientious people , because of their just and tender regard unto freedome in religion , notwithstanding all importunity to the contrary ; meaning , in suffering all sorts of sectaries to doe what they list , notwithstanding all honest endevours of pious presbyterians , against licentious libertines and independents . thus this whisperer . but , to go on ; see , again , the strange boldnes of these our independents , set forth yet farther , by that most audacious jesuiticall-independent , the most seditious , yea , trayterous authour of the last warning to london . how , first , he most impudently quarrels at all government , both regall , civill and ecclesiasticall , and then scornfully contends with a government established by the parliament , in these words , pag. 3. 4 , & 5. others ( meaning of the presbyterian partie ) are troubled with another as unreasonable a humour concerning ecclesiasticall government who are undone , ruined , and torne in peeces with rents and divisions if all the people may not be compelled to worship god as they doe , or in one uniforme way by the state established . yet ( sayes he ) p. 5. these are they that frame oaths and covenants for you in such ambiguous expressions ( like delphian-oracles ) that you shall seem to be bound to doe any thing they shall desire , be it ever so absurd or wicked . here , now , you see , this impudent independent will not endure a worship established by the state , when he fear'd the fall of his own partie , thereby : but look upon him a little farther , and see how notoriously he playes the jugler , and palpable impostor , pag. 7. in these very words . minde your own good ( this he also speaks to the city of london ) and cleave fast to the house of commons ; let no sorcerie or sophistrie divide you from them , be not importunate with them for church-government , but leave it to their wisdoms to measure-out unto the clergie , what may be for the quiet and profit of the people . see here now how the case is altered with this independent ; now , all must be left to the state , to the wisdome of the house of commons , now you see a parliamentary church government is the best . but , see again , how this satanicall-deceiver goes about most audaciously and sediciously to make a rent and division between the two houses of parliament . the lords ( says he ) are not to goe before the commons in determining what concerns the nations , their large answer to your last city-petition for church-government and suppression of conventicles , insinuates they would allure you from the commons , therefore observe them watchfully , and trust them accordingly , and let not any of these estrange you from that your faithfull councel , the house of commons . this is now adays , their tone and tune ; now , i say , that they suppose ( but most falsly i hope ) that the house of commons will either curb , or cast down the presbyterian-government , or at least grant a toleration to the independent-church way . but , in the meane season , judge ô my godly brethren , is not this a most satanicall dissembler , and abominable traitor too , to peace and truth ? and are not all these men brave and bold consciencious time-servers and time-observers for their own ayms and interests ? certainly , i think they are , or else i am still mightily mistaken . nay yet again , what a strange trick have they now of late taken up to abuse us withall ? even to make our solemne league and most sacred covenant that happy & heavenly tie upon our consciences to almighty god himself to be if possibly it may be ) a mayn snare and most da●gerous dilemma ( or nose of wax ) to undo us all ( in making us abominable and nauseous covenant-breakers ) by their false wrested comments and fallacious glosses & interpretations set upon it , for the surer and subtiller advance of their own wicked aymes and ends ; telling us that the parliament intended not the sense and acceptation of it , thus and thus , according to the letter of it , as we the presbyterians take it , and undiscreetly would have it ; neither for conformity to the church of scotland , or other reformed churches ; as my old deare , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unhappy friend m. burton in his fore-mentioned peacemaker seems to come too neer to such an interpretation of that branch of our covenant , when he sayes ; and why not rather to the churches of new-england , & yet he sees ( or may if he please ) the very church of scotland nominatim , expressed plainly in the covenant : but the letter ( they say ) must not stand for good ( but an , &c. ) sense , like the bishops oath . much , also , to this purpose , speaks that most wicked and seditious , yea , apparently jesuiticall last warning to london ; and walwin also that whisperer , and self-flated-flatterer , before more fully mentioned . and thus this godly party , these precious saints , willingly forget ( as i touched before ) or are now adayes ( without fear or piety ) most carelesse and fearlesse of the great danger of their lives , or , at least , of some severe corporall punishment , as the author of the protestation protested , once was in ( as i touched before ) for daring to wrest the sense of the covenants , orders or edicts of our wise and honourable parliamentarie senators , to their own private and most pernicious aymes and ends o tempora ! o mores ! if ever certainly , now , is that of the prophet jeremiah most truly and clearly fulfilled , and too manifest in these our independents : take ye heed , everyone , of his neighbour , and trust yee not in any brother ; for , every brother will utterly supplant , and every neighbour will walk with slanders . and for a most particular ratification of this scripture , i shall here give the reader a cleere example in an eminent independent past●r , now and long resident in this city , and well known to almost all in the city , viz. doctor homes , who succeeded reverend and religious master faucet , who being a sickly gentleman , and finding hee could not have his health well in the city , contracted with doctor homes about exchange of their livings , the one for the city , the other for the country in case of consent of the inhabitants of each place . master faucets parishioners out of their good respect and love to him , and for his desired accommodation , consented thereunto , and the rather also , as knowing the doctor to be a man of able parts , and perswaded he would live lovingly , and deale honestly and conscienciously with them , as a godly and faithfull pastor ought with his own people . after which consent the doctor procured a presentation from the ( then ) lord keeper to the bishop , and the next thing to be done was to have an induction from the bishop , but there the doctor made a stand , and desired conference with the parishioners about it ▪ to whom he declared the tendernes of his cōscience , and that he could not digest such an induction , he holding it antichristian , and yet without which he could not have the living , as the case then stood . whereupon the parishioners having very good thoughts of the doctor in those dayes , and hoping for much good by his ministry amongst them , were all of them willing to accept of him for their pastor , though he was not ( as the manner then was ) legally possest of the living provided , that the doctor should enter into bond to save the parish harmelesse from the next incumbent , for delapidations or any thing else that might befall them in that respect of the living , he not being proper incumbent . to this the doctor consented , seald the parish a bond , for the purposes aforesaid , and so the parishioners thought all was well between them , and thus it continued some few moneths , the doctor constantly preaching and officiating in his ministry amongst them ; but now at last , the doctor began to flag , and to be discontented , and would neither preach , nor doe ought else among his people as their minister , or but very seldom and discontentedly , and told the parishioners hee was troubled in minde , and bound in his spirit , and could not goe on comfortably with them , and desired therefore a conference with them all together , whereupon a meeting there was , and he then declared to them that he was much troubled in minde by reason of his engagement , and that it was a grèat hinderance to his studies , and to his other contentments , and that he could not goe on in preaching to them , till his engagement was taken off from him , making this a great argument therein , namely , that he had a wife , and that if god should take him away from her , his wife would then beliable to make good what he was bound to , but , that she was utterly unfit to deal in businesses of such a nature , and therefore , i say , he desired he might have in his bond again , or else he could not goe on comfortably in his ministry , and that if they would thus far favour and respect him , they should see how highly he should value their love therein , and how he would studie and strive to deserve it of them , bidding them trust him upon his word and promise , which accordingly they most freely and lovingly did , and gave him in the bond presently , and ever since that , they have paid soundly for it , for very shortly after hee began boldly to play reexs , to stand upon termes on tiptoe , as it were , with his parishioners , gathered an independent congregation , excluding all his foresaid loving parishioners from christian communion in their own parish church , except they would enter into a covenant with him , to walke according to his rule , which they not willing to yeeld unto he having got the keyes of the church from their clerke , keeps all the parishioners out , and will not administer the sacrament of the lords supper to any of them , not baptize any of their children , nor doe any act of a minister or pastor to his people , save what he would doe to a very turke or pagan , unlesse they will dance after his independent pipe ; and thus now the parishioners wander as sheepe without a sheepherd , glad to run into others pastures , and this they have gotten by trusting to a grave independents bare promise . and are not now the prophets words before recited , here too truly verified and confirmed ? the truth of all which though not extant in print under the doctors own hands ( as for shame is not like to be ) yet i am able to justifie by the testimonie of divers of the honest , able , religious , and understanding parishioners or inhabitants of that place , to full satisfaction . again who ever looks upon that peece of changeable taffatie , for i confesse t is finely spun ( as so are all his ) and yet interwoven with sablesilke , that is , much black-slander and jettie-jeers , i mean mr. john goodwins twelve serious considerable cautions about reformation , together with his soft and smooth probationer thereof , his independent brother master john bachiler ; o what prettie tinkling and tampering shall he there finde ( to abuse and blind-fold the understanding of their most willingly deceived and abused independent proselytes ) between the licenser and the licentious author , both upon the serious perusall of the crafty cautions themselves , and the licensers slie protestations ( there ) that he sees nothing therein contrary to sound doctrine and good manners ; and thus , in effect , hee also deals by his full approbation of my late friend mr. saltmarsh his most foggie and suffocating or choking smoake of the temple , touching which , i think , learned , grave and godly mr. ley , a reverend divine of the assembly hath sufficiently shewn him his grosse failings and weaknesses , to say no more ; and also his grones for liberty out of smectymnius , in neither of which also can mr. bachiler see any thing contrary to sound doctrine nor good manners though they bee full fraught ( especially , the grones for libertie ) with very false , falacious , and grossely misapplyed parallels , and unsavorie comparisons , between the cases or conditions and times of the dommeering prelates , ouer the truly tender consciences of the ( then ) truly godly nonconfommists , and our ( now ) pious presbyterians in their gracious and most moderate desire of unity and uniformity in sound doctrine , and scripturall discipline , with his schismaticall sectaries , in their most ungodly and ungrounded grones , or rather grunts , for abominable , yea damnable libertie of conscience , forsooth . nor can this tender conscienced licenser , to his deare independent authors , see ought amisse in master sal●marshes subtile and deceitfull treatise of free-grace , the glorious and specious deep-promising title whereof ( as learned and reverend master gatakar truly sayes , in his learned answer to that book of m. salimarshes ) on the very frontispeece , were bush enough of it self , to invite & intice ( guests ) to tast of such pretended precious liquor ; yet very much dangerous drinke of errour to be found therein , as mr. gatakar , i say , in that his learned and pious reply cleerely discovers , together also with master saltmarshes most injurious exceptions and discontents at reverend and religious master edwards his gangraena , of whom ( i mean master edwards ) i can say thus much , from master saltmarshes own mouth , on mine own particular knowledge , that i having got master saltmarsh both to heare master edwards preach in christ-church , and afterward to have much particular conference with him at my house , i and others have heard master saltmarsh give master edwards such high and honourable testimony both for his godly , sound , and satisfactory preaching , and also for his gravity , solidity , & sweetly tempered moderation in conference , as that i am confident , hee is not able to give more or better testimony and commendation of any independent or sectarie , whatsoever : yea , and he added these words unto me . i professe , sir ( says he to my selfe ) had i not thus heard m. edwards my self , i could not have believed the half thereof ; but , i am now glad i have , thus heard him , and conferred with him , that now i may ( as i will ) on all occasions , vindicate his reputation and honour , when ever i heare him traduced or ill-spoken of . or words full , to this effect . and all this , i say , i can most faithfully witnesse and testifie and so can others ) on mine own particular knowledge . truly , therefore , me thinks , had i said no more , in these respects , than what that worthy authour ( who ever he was ) of that , though succinct , yet most solid piece , entituled toichoructa , or independents razing their own foundation . wherein , he most singularly deciphers how neer the spirit of independents comes to remish jesuits , in their deceits and dissimulations , stretching their consciences beyond the the line of all fair-dealing ; had i , therefore , i say , said no more , me thinks , i had spoken enough to convince them of deep impiety and most foul iniquity , in the very way of their destructive schisme among us . nay , yet farther , take speciall notice , i beseech thee good reader , of one more even unparalell'd piece of impiety , and ( doubtlesse ) of unpattern'd palpable iniquity most worthily mentioned to their eternall and indelible shame and infamy by the foresaid authour of that toichoructa , which you shall finde exactly set downe , in that notable piece , pag 4 , 5 , 6. wherein hee shews how notoriously dissemblingly and unconscionably the independents of the assembly at westminster dealt with their presbyterian brethren , there , about commissioners to judge of sins not ennmerated in the ordinance touching admitting or not admitting to the sacrament of the lords supper . against which , when our presbyterian-divines desired their dissenting-brethren of the independent faction to joyn in a petition with them to the house of commons ; and although it is a thing which independents cannot according to their principles allow of ; yet , now , upon this just desire of their presbyterian-brethren , they answered ; the thing the assembly desired was good , yet they could not joyn with them therein because it might be a hinderance to a greater good which themselves desired . here 's policie to the purpose , indeed . and ( as the same authour goes on ) whether the independents have not had their hands deep in the promoting the businesse of commissioners and obstructing those wayes which might have prevented it i appeale to their owne consciences . now , if any one ask ( as well as wonder ) upon what principles , the indep●ndents can , in conscience , consent and approve of , yea , promote and farther ( as 't is too evident they have ) the laying on of such burthens upon other mens shoulders , as themselves cannot in conscience submit unto ? i answer , on what principles of conscience they thus proceed , i know not , but their prin●iples of policy , are divers and deep ; as first , themselves never meant to be unde● such bonds , but either hoped to get a formall toleration for their way , and exemption from such a rule , or at least , resolved to practise toleration in their seperated congregations , whether the magistrate tolerate it or not , unto them ; and therefore cared not how straight and pirching those or any bonds were made for others . thus and more , to this purpose , this worthy authour . now if all these be not prety independent tricks to play fast and loose with their brethren , i know not what belongs to fair play above board . and all these things being so evident and apparent to all truly pious and impartiall christians , that are not wilfully blinde , and so conspicuous under their own hands ( for the most part ) even all i have hither●o written of them , i cannot but exceedingly wonder how it should come to passe , that mens eyes and understanding ( especially too many even of the intelligent presbyterian party ) should be so blinded or rather besotted , and that their reason should be so gull'd and del●…ded , as to believe these and such like pernitious and perfidious pr●ctices to be consonant and agreeable to such pious-men and precious-saints ( i mean , i say , the heads and ring-leaders of them especially ) as the world cals and conceives them to be ; and therefore , they say , they dare not speak against them , or think evill of them ; considering i say in the first place ( as a sure ground to build their judgement on ) these scripture-marks and characters of a truly holy-saint and gracious citizen of the new-jerusalem ; and how d●ame●rally opposite thereunto , these independent sectaries walk , and how egregiously discrepant and remote they are from them . and , since , as our blessed saviour says , in the mouth , or testimony of two or three witnesses , every word or truth shall be established . i hope , this cloud of unquestionable self-condemning-testimonies , even as it were out of their own mouthes , and under their own hands ( the most of them ) may be abundantly sufficient , for the future , to stop the mouthes of our independent antagonists , and to satisfie the false conceits of any neutrall gainsayers , yea , and to make ( if it bee possible ) the boldest of them to blush and hold their tongues , or hide their faces for shame of themselves and their deceitfull and wicked way . and yet , i must confesse , i may seem , herein , to be much mistaken ( especially in the opinion of independents , object . 1 and such as harken or adheare to them ) for , they have , most cunningly got a brave varnish to glaze over all these objections , and a fine back-do●e of evasion to get out at , from all these censures and surmises of presbyterians touching all these the independents seeming miscarriages ; namely , that all this which i have hitherto urged against them , as subtilties and deceivable errors , schismes or enormities , they finely and fairly call and count glorious new-lights , and rare-revelations . and , hence it is ( they will assure you ) that at the first they told us ( in their apologeticall narration ) that they would positively determine nothing in their church way or church-government , but forsooth , wait in expectation ( still ) of new-light , and so keep a reserve , to help themselves at a dead lift , for so are mr. burtons own words in his vindication . but hereunto , i answer , is not this a cleere jesuiticall juggle , and most like unto the popish equivocation , whereby the jesuits , seminarie-priests , and all jesuited papists did familiarly use to help themselves at a dead lift , answ . 1 when they were examined upon any serious questions , even by a mentall reservation or equivocation to help themselves , i say , and thereby did they the more cunningly deceive the most acute argumentators and interrogating disputans that came against them ? and would not our independents , now adayes , by this their fine-trick of new-lights , forsooth , befool our faith , and make us believe they doe all now , by rare revelations ? herein , i say , dealing with us , just as the jesuites did with their proselytes and opposites too , in the point of transubstantiation , labour to make them believe that the bread and wine in the lords supper , were truly ; really , and corporally transubstantiated into the very body and bloud of christ even the very same which suffered and was shed on the crosse in all respects , though there was no visible change ( either to sight or sense ) in the bread or wine , but they still remained the same which they were before they were consecrated , whereof , when they were told so , they presently answered that it was so trāsinutated or changed by a miracle , forsooth , which indeed was a ridiculous and absurd answer ; for we never read of any miracle wrought either by any of the prophets , christ himself , or his apostles , but it was reall , evident , and visible , both to sight and sense to be a miracle indeed : even so i say to out independents , concerning their reserve or new-lights , tell them of any of their new & upstart errors , or vaporous enthusiasmes , or newly-revived-opinions or conceits , but indeed meer old errours ( call them what you please ) rak't out of the rotten ashes of ancient hereticks and schismaticks , presently their smooth and deceivable answer is ; o sir , these are not errours but new-lights , newly and rarely revealed to us by some sodain and secret inspiration , and when we demand or desire to have it made out unto us by gods written word , that they are reall and demonstrative , new-lights indeed , that we may evidently discerne them to be such , by that truest tonch-stone , the word of god , and not to be empty meteors and crotchets of their own brains ; then , alas , either through ignorance and deceivablenesse they cannot , or else with as much impertinencie as obstinacie , they will foolishly and falsely urge that of the prophet joel , and it shall come to passe , that i will poure out my spirit upon all flesh , and your sons and your daughters shall prophesie , &c. and your young men shall see visions . whereas this prophesie of joel ( as the apostle peter told the jews ) was clearly prophesied of , and mainly fulfilled in those times of the apostles , and then after our saviour christs ascention ( which were called those last-dayes , as all the learned observe ) the lord indeed poured out his spirit on all flesh , on young and old , male and female , and gave them power of admirably doing miracles and wonders , and then i say ( as the apostle peter , in that forecited scripture said ) was this prophesie of joel most apparently fulfilled , and so continued all the time of the apostles lives , and some of their holy disciples , even to about the time of the destruction of jerusalem . but what 's this to our times , wherein ( and long time before ) miracles are ceased ? can any of us dare to assume the extraordinary power of the spirit of god , to doe miracles , and worke wonders ? is it a miracle or a wonder ( indeed , i confesse it may be , to see such intolerable impudence ) to see young saucie boyes ( in comparison ) bold botching taylors , and other most audacious illiterate mechanicks , to run rudely and rashly ( and unsent for too ) out of their shops into a pulpit ; to see bold impudent huswives , without al womanly modesty , to take upon them ( in the naturall volubility of their tongues , & quick wits , or strong memories onely ) to prate ( not preach or prophesie ) after a narrative or discoursing manner , an houre or more , and that most directly contrary to the apostles inhibition ; but where , i say , is their extraordinary spirit poured out upon them , either in the gift of tongues ( except it be the lying and the slanderous tongues , which are rather the gifts of the evil spirit , as the apostle james testifies ) in gifts of miraculous healing the sick and sore , and such like ? where , i say , are any of these in our old or young tradesmen , or bould beatriceses of the female sex ? and does not the apostle peter most punctually come up to this very thing of our independents , even to shew us this most notable dissembling and fallacious trick of new-lights , and fained revelations , which he foresaw would follow his departure out of his earthly-tabernacle , , and therefore forewarns the people of god to beware of them , telling them , verse 16. that he and the rest of the faithfull apostles used not cunningly devised fables ( or new inventions of their own or other mens brains ) when they made known the power and comming of the lord jesus unto them . adding at length this most immoveable and infalible rule for them to walk by , and to be guided with , ver. 19. but we have a more sure word of prophesie , whereunto you doe well that yee take heed , as unto a light that shineth in a darke place , till the day dawn , and the day-star ( of truth ) arise in your hearts . away , then , with this notorious deceitfull trick of new-lights ( for shame ) and of your rare revelations ; cheat not the people of god and your own soules , especially , with these deceivable devices of your own brains , and schismaticall spirits . but , this , most certainly , is the independent way , now adayes , among us , to the great disturbance of the peace and comfort of the people of the lord , and when we justly tell them of their unfaithfull dealing , and down right deceiving , by this their trick of new-lights ; o then , just as the jesuits and popish priests , in queene maries dayes , and of later times , called those that would not believe their popish trick of transubstantiation to be a miracle , they called and counted them , i say , hereticks : so these our independents ( if we will not , and cannot in our consciences , nor by any of their demonstrations , beleeve their trick of new-lights to be a scripture revelation of some rare truth of god not formerly known but a meere conceit , yea , a plain deceit ) ô then presently , i say , our independents call and count us ( as my selfe heard master burroughs deliver such an expression in one of his lectures at michaels in corn-hill ) carnall and prophane presbyterians , grievers and despisers of the saints and godly party , forsooth , and contemners of the gifts of the spirit , whereas indeed there is no such thing in them , but they most palpable and impudent impostors . and thus , the lord knows , they goe about deceiving and being deceived , and truly , hinc illae lachrima , heer 's the source , the rice and originall of all these unhappie and unholy jars and divisions between us ; they are so nimble and quick-sighted in apprehension of new-lights , and we are so dull and obtuse ( if they will have it so ) and hard of belief to be led , or rather misled by them , as not being able to discerne so much out of gods word , till when , we shall ever question and quarrell at this novell and vain device of theirs . but again , our independents have one trick more , at least to put us object 2 finely off from our just objurgations with them , and accusations of them , concerning their most dangerous and damnable errours , now adayes broacht by them , and brag'd of among them , viz. that wee are too uncharitable in thus upbraiding the saints with their infirmities , forsooth ; yea , and ( as i touch'd before ) in laying the failings and slips of onely the retrimentitious ▪ partie ( as master iohn goodwin terms them , as before ) that is , in plain english the excrements or dregs of sectaries , independents , anabaptists , and such like . where first answer . 2 take notice , good reader , by way of reply hereunto in generall , that master iohn goodwin confesses , there is a retrimentitious or excrementall-partie among his saints . secondly , that he calls and counts their dangerous , damnable , and blasphemous errours , with the rest of their foul impieties , but sins of infirmity . but more particularly to the first , i briefly answer , that as i have sufficiently made it clear , all along in this treatise , they are not onely the retrimentitious-partie of their independent saints , that deale thus dangerously and deceitfully with us , but the very best and bravest , yea , seemingly , gravest grandees of them all . secondly , is not master iohn goodwin , or any of the rest of them ashamed , to call such abusive and abominable errours and such foul and frequent facts of impiety ( as they are too justly taxed with , and found guilty of ) sins onely of infirmity ? can he or they make us beleeve that they know not how to distinguish between sins of weaknesse or infirmity , and reigning-sins , church-disgracing and conscience-wounding abominations ? for my part i conceive ( under correction ) sins of infirmity are such as are committed either ignorantly , or if knowingly , yet ) fearfully , and with much reluctation of spirit , seldom , and that with much vehement repentance and godly sorrow after conviction , with purpose and bent of heart ( by gods grace ) to be more watch full against them for the future , and such like . as for reigning-sins , i conceive them to be , sins committed or acted knowingly , affectedly , promeditately , resolutely , constantly , or frequently and familiarly against all evidences of conviction or exhortation against them , yea , and so far from repentance for them , as to justifie them and rejoyce and boast in them ; together with such like other sad symptomes thereof . now , whether very many of our profest independents embrace or act their dangerous errours , lying , double dealing , and the like , as aforesaid , in the former or in the latter capacity or condition , as sins of weaknesse or of wilfulnesse , and affected obstinacy , i leave themselves to judge and faithfully to examine their own hearts and consciences ( for , to their own master they stand or fall ) and to all others also , who impartially observe and take notice of their carriage and conversation ; especially , upon serious consideration of those characters of a true saint , which i have faithfully fore-mentioned to them ; all that i will , for my part , say herein , is , to tell you my strong fears , that , in regard of the premises , i cannot but greatly suspect and doubt , in the latter capacity ( i say , very many of them ) so proud , so pragmaticall , so insolent and obstinate are they in a most ungrounded defence of their evils and errours ; and on these grounds , i must confesse i cannot judge more tenderly of them . and again , i say , in yet more full answer to this objection ; how dare any of them call or account any the ( seeming ) least of their errours , small-sins or no-sins , being against the eternall truth , of our most pure object . 3 and holy god ? and whereas in the last place they cry out against us , and tax us , not onely of want of charity , but asperse us with plain impiety , for urging against them , and accusing them openly or inprint , of their foul offences , and openly taught and maintained dangerous errours , schismes , and enormities , and of their damnable doctrines and opinions : i say , and will avouch and maintain it , that our work and way herein , is both holy , honest , and warrantable from the word it self ; and particularly from that of the apostle paul , who answ . 3 himselfe tels us , that , when peter ( who at that time seemed a pillar of gods house , the church ) did that which was worthy of blame , and that , openly , to the prejudice and so and all of gods people and cause : this blessed apostle , i say , tels us , that he withstood peter and rebuked him , even to his face for his dissimulation , and for being a means ( thereby to ensnare barnabas also into the same foule fault with him ; even the very same , whereof i now here complain in our independents and their schismaticall brethren , namely , dissimulation or double-dealing . yea , and ( as the same blessed , wise , and holy apostle said ) they are most worthy to be even most sharply rebuked , and also openly , in regard they have offended and dissembled so openly , even in print , therefore are , i say , to be reproved in paint , whereas , indeed , had they offended but in private , god forbid , but we should tenderly have dealt in private with them . and this indeed hath been a main ground of the quarrell between reverend master edwards , and his independent antagonists , who have most injuriously abused him with slanders , onely , or mainly for his zealous opposing , and sharpe reproving the open errours , schismes , and scandalous miscarriages of these men , who can be content to dishonour god and his truth , but cannot endure to be taxt and told of it , though the apostle tels them they are worthy to be blamed for it , and therefore in this respect , though ( according to that old axiome , amicus socrates , amicus plato , magic tamen amica veritas , though such an one is my friend , and such an one is my old acquaintance and friend , yet , by gods grace , truth is and shall be my best friend , yea , and i say as my blessed lord and master christ jesus said , to this end was i born , and for this cause came i into the world , that i should bear witnesse ( with the rest of gods faithfull ones ) to the truth ; and fully and faithfully to speake and declare the truth with all holinesse , godly zeal , courage and impartiality against whomsoever , in this case neither regarding the favours or frowns of any , but onely ayming at the glory of my god , which , i say , was the main end of my creation . but to conclude and shut up all i have now to say , it is most probable that our independents , and the rest of their schismaticall fraternity ( for as i have formerly toucht , i make account all the rest of the sectaries , are for certain independents ) object . 3 will again , now at last object and say unto me ; that all this while i have but pleased my selfe , in beating the ayre , and shooting at rovers , being wide of the marke and much mistaken , in all that i have taxed and accused them with all , for none of them are at all perswaded or convinced in their consciences , that any of those which master edwards , or i , call errours or schismes , are schismes or sins , but ( as answer . 3 was touched before ) new-lights , and new-revealed truths . whereunto i answer , with sorrow of soule for their sakes , i easily , indeed , believe they will say so , and i cannot much marvell at it , since ( as those demetrians said ) by this craft they have got much gain . and since i see this is their obstinate and inflexible resolution , thus , still , to say and hold , and that they are before hand resolved ( for private interests and self-aymes sake ) that no clearest demonstrative reasons or argumentations ( no though from apparent scripture , or scripture-consequences ) shall beat them off , or disswade them from these satans strong stratagems of new-light , new-revelations , keeping reserves , and liberty of conscience ; i therefore will say no more unto them , but with the spirit of the lord , said to obstinate and incorrigible ones ; hee that is unjust , let him be unjust still , and he that is filthy let him bee filthy still ; and he that is righteous , ô let him be righteous still ; and hee that is holy , let him be holy still ? onely , i herein may comfortably say to mine own heart , liberavi animam meam : yet , as the religious bonds of piety and charity binde me ) from my soule i shall unfainedly pray ( as the lord knows i daily doe ) that god would in the riches of his grace in christ jesus open their eyes and speake to their hearts , shew them the evill of their ways , and the great danger of their destructive errours , to the ruine of the whole kingdom , yea , of the three whole kingdoms , if they doe not timely retract and repent of those great and gangrene evils and blasphemous errours , which have enflamed almost the whole kingdom ( by their new-lights ) as so many firebrands to set on fire three whole kingdoms , i say , if the lord in mercie ( by the wisdome , piety , and impartiallity of our parliament ) quench not the flame in time , and graciously reconcile us not together by godly peace , unity , and unanimity of spirit , which the lord in much mercie grant unto us for his sake , who is the prince of peace , truth , and love , and of all godly order , even the lord christ the righteous , to whom be all honour , praise , dominion , with holy and hearty universall obedience , for ever , amen . the opinion and advice ( as it is deemed ) of monsieur de moulin , professor of divinity , in the vniversity of sedan , in france ; concerning the opinion of those who are named independents , in england . wherein , the inconcinnity and unreasonablenesse , if not apparent impiety of independents , in the mayn point of classicall-discipline , is most evidently discovered , by this eminently reverend and learned divine , to the shame and silence of our obstinate independents . sir , a certain friend of mine , an honest religious man hath given me notice , that certain persons doe finde fault with the order and discipline established in our church ; in which , the consistory are subject to the colloquies , and the colloquies to the provinciall synod ; and the provinciall to the nationall synod . and their desire is to have every particular consistory or congregation of one and the same absolute authority , independent from any superiour authority or assembly whatsoever . upon which , my said friend earnestly desired to have my opinion or judgement on the matter ; which , being of such a nature and importance , i could not any way decline , or deny his request , which , i have here set down , and is as followeth . i say , that those which propound this opinion ought in no manner or wise to be hearkened unto ; for if in case this their opinion were followed , there could nothing else ensue but the certain ruine of the church , and an extreme confusion , for the severall reasons , heer following . first , it happeneth often times , that two ministers of one parish or congregation , fall our and are at variance , and thereupon they separate and divide the congregation into two factions , in such an occasion of necessity , there must needs be the helpe of a superiour authority . secondly , the church or congregation hath but one minister , and he leads an ungodly life , to the scandall of the church , and the consistory of that congregation censureth him , all being of one accord or if it happen that the said consistory be divided , and of two opinions , there can be ( surely ) in such a case , no remedy , but by a superiour power and authority of colloquies or synods , who have power to depose and appoint such ministers ( or such a minister ) if there be but one ) as they shall think fit , and they or he desiring to be deposeth ? who shall depose him , the elders onely of the consistory , or the whole congregation or assembly ? shall they give sentence against them or him ? thirdly , if any one of the congregation bee unjustly suspended from the holy communion or absolutely excommunicated , unto whom shall he direct himselfe to be re-admitted to the congregation ; or to whom shall be direct his complaint , if so be the consistory who have unjustly suspended or excommunicated him , have an absolute authority to themselves without dependencie upon any other ? if any new heresies happen to be raised in any church , and that some ministers and congregations become infected therewith , what remedy is there to avoid this great evill , but by a synod , who may examine and depose the obstinate minister or partie who infecteth the church ? had not the synod of dort remedied this evill , the arminianisme was spreading it selfe over that whole countrey , and had unavoidably prevailed . for in case that every consistory or parish had been absolute of themselves and independent , they might have refused the resolution of the said synod , alleadging that they were not subject to synods , but had an absolute authority within themselves . it is the chiefe and peculiar work of synods , which they always first take in hand , to heare the complaint of particular churches , and to judge of appeals : if these be taken away from the synods , they need no more to meet , for they have nothing to doe : for to no purpose should they pronounce their judgements , if they might govern according to their own mindes , as if every parish were made a particular soveraignty which would be an order , which was never practised nor used in any place since the apostles . there are many small parishes in the countrey , where the consistory is composed of one minister ( of none of the greatest capacity ) and of foure or five countrey-men , or clowns , who are elders of that church : and shall to such a church be given such an absolute independent authority ? and if their minister happen to die , will you believe those clowns sitting to judge of the capacity of a new minister , to give him the imposition of hands , or to order in this case what ever may be needfull ? if upon occasion of wars or distractions in the kingdom , it be necessary to keepe a day of fasting and humiliation , through all the churches in the kingdom , who shall ordain this fast , or who shall appoint the day of celebration thereof ? if it be necessary to remonstrate to the kings majestie , the complaint of all the churches in generall , who shall depute the partie that shall present the petition of the churches of the whole kingdom ? if upon any occasion it be found needfull to alter any thing in the discipline of the church in generall , and to make any new necessary orders in the same , to be observed generally , can this be done by particular consistories being independent , and who are not subject to any generall ordinance ? in brief , it ought to be believed that the dependencie of particular churches to superiour powers , is that which maintains the union of the church , and this being taken away , there would remain no more correspondencie , but a wilfull and wofull confusion would soon appear . no man ought to be judge in his own cause . but if there happen a contention between two churches ( as it happeneth too often ) neither of these two churches can be judge in their own cause , and of necessity there must be reliefe by a superiour authority , else all will be naught between them , i will not believe ( though i confesse there is cause of jealousie ) that those that desire this independencie have any intelligence with the enemie , and that thereby they seeke ( under pretence of reformation ) to bring us into a confusion , or at least to expose us to the laughter of our enemies , though , i say , i fear this , by many symptomes thereof , i rather will ( in charity ) believe they err through want of experience , and knowledge of what is profitable for the church of god . the end of every good christian and common-wealths man , is to glorifie god in maintaining his true religion , to serve the king in the preservation of his royall person and dignity , and to procure the common good in maintaining justice , and liberty of the subject and kingdom . all these ( though three branches ) arise and spring from one root , and have the same essense and being : but it is impossible that any man should truly affect the king or common-wealth that is slight and negligent in religion , nor can any man fully discharge his duty to god , that is not carefull of king and common-wealth , see then ô independents , by this foresaid solid judgement , how feeble and false , yea , how dangerous and destructive your independent church-way is . the lord open your eyes to see it , and give you hearts affected with much sorrow for your obstinacie in it , and in his good time , graciously convert you from it , to embrace peace and truth with your presbyterian brethren , thus prayes . yours , j. v. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a95897e-2140 ill weeds grow apace . want of weeding of gods garden , the church . plain-english . 1 pretended piety and holinesse of life one great cause of the growth of independencie . 2 pretence of preaching sound doctrine another cause of independents growth among us . schismaticks are like salamanders . 1 pretence of preaching sound doctrine a cause of independents growth . sound-doctrine overthrown by our independents . a pregnant s●●●le . the word & sacraments are the vineyard or garden of the lord . godly government or scripturall church-discipline is the wall or fence about it . fals-doctrines preached and broached by independents and other sectaries . object . answ . toleration & liberty of conscience the only inlets for all other abominable opinions . iudges 15. 3 , 4. independents and all other sectaries compared most fitly to sampsons foxes . 2 pretended piety a second cause of independents growth among us . the seeming holinesse of hereticks of the primitive church . the outward seeming holy lives of the scribes and pharisees in our saviours time . 2 cor. 11. 13 , 14. mark this , ô all yee honest and plain hearted christians , that are apt to be deceived and seduced . holinesse of life is a false touchstone to try sound men by . 1 cor. 11. 1. soundnesse in doctrine is a true touchstone to try a sound man by gal. 1. 7 , 8. soundnesse in doctrine though accompanied with humane infirmities is a safer way to try men , than seeming-exact walking accompanied with errours in doctrine . the main promised point , now , proved . the certain characters of a truly godly-man . psal. 15. 24 , 4. matth. 7. 12. revel. 22. 15. a pretty passage concerning m. peters . independents a generation of notorious dissemblers & sly deceivers . isaiah 62. 1. cretensis , p. 5. m. iohn goodwins retrimentitious-party of sectaries . the five famous apologists . the apologeticall narration intended by the independents for their credit , proved far otherwise . the apologists are gods poore exiles ; and how . antapol . p. 190 191. apol. nar. p. 22. apol. nar. p. 5. & 6. see heere the most strange & unblushing false dealing of the independents with presbyterians , contrary to their own words and protestations . another notable and undenyable false dealing of the independents with the presbyterians . antapolo . p. 213 see heere also how most unblushingly the independents deal falsly with the presbyterians . a notable passage of fallacy , in the independents acted by mr. phil●p nye , one of their grand politicians . a remarkable discovery of the independents notorious subtilty & double-dealing . mr. nye palpably coozens mr. calamy of the writing or instrument that tyed the independents to be honest . antapol . p. 243 the most shamelesse & slanderous remonstrance against the assembly of divines owned and subscribed by seven of the most eminent independents . the independents double-dealing about their apolog. narration . the strange & most urgent & earnest importunity of the presbyterians to procure a modell of the independents church-government . answer to the remonstrance mr. tho : goodwin , at last , chosen , by the independents to frame their new-modell of their church-way . parturiunt montes nascitur ridiculus mus. a most shamelesse and slanderous remonstrance against the assembly exhibited to the assembly ( instead of their new-modell ) by seven of the most eminent independents . the perfect practice of deceives . an answer of the assembly of divines to the remonstrance of the independents in mr. burton in his sermon ; for god and the king , p. 109. a fair tale told by the sectaries for themselves . still , more notorious double dealing , under the independents own hands . mr. iohn goodwin . mr. burton . christ upon his throne . mr. iohn lilburn . arraignment of mr. persesecution . the notorious double-dealing of independents touching the power of parliaments in church-government and matters of religion . the peace-maker , pag. 3. &c. the protestation protested . mr. i. g. in his 12. serious . cautions , &c. luke 18. 11 , 12. the last warning to london . our holy covenant made an ensnaring dangerous dilemma to our consciences by the independents subtilties . the peace-maker . ierem. 9. 4. an independent jugling trick play'd by doctor homes with his parishioners . ier. 9. 4. mr. iohn bachilers approbation of a company of most pernicicious & schismaticall pamphlets , yet pretends all to be pious , sound and good . m. saltmarsh his singular testimony of m. edwards his preaching and conference . toichoructa , or , independents razing their own foundation . a remarkable piece of independents impiety . mat. 18. 16. a prettie independent evasion of all hitherto urged against independents . new-lights . vindication p. 58. donec ad triarios redieritres . independents emptie new-lights , and popish equivocation compared together . ioel 2. 18. acts 2. 16 , 17. the extreme impiety , folly , and absurdity of the audacious sectaries both man and wom●n of our times , under a pretence of new-light , from the prophesie of ioel. 1 cor. 14. 34 1 tim. 2 11 , 12 & 1 pet. 2. 15. iam. 13 , 14 , 15. here is an old light , and a true light indred . the independent saints infirmities must not bee medled with . cretensis , p. 4. not only the retrimentitious-party , but the gravest grandees of the independent-party . sins of infirmity briefly described . ragining sins briefly described . no errour into be accounted a small sin . the independents tax the presbyterians with piety for writing against their errours openly . galat. 2. 11. ibid. 2. 9. titus 1. 13. iohn 18 37. acts 19. 25. revel. 22. 11. the wonderful works of god commemorated praises bespoke for the god of heaven in a thanksgiving sermon delivered on decemb. 19, 1689 : containing reflections upon the excellent things done by the great god ... : to which is added a sermon preached unto a convention of the massachuset-colony in new-england ... / by cotton mather. mather, cotton, 1663-1728. 1690 approx. 178 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 64 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-07 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a50176 wing m1171 estc w24924 09955470 ocm 09955470 44381 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a50176) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 44381) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1363:7) the wonderful works of god commemorated praises bespoke for the god of heaven in a thanksgiving sermon delivered on decemb. 19, 1689 : containing reflections upon the excellent things done by the great god ... : to which is added a sermon preached unto a convention of the massachuset-colony in new-england ... / by cotton mather. mather, cotton, 1663-1728. mather, cotton, 1663-1728. a sermon preached to the honourable convention of the governour, council, and representatives of the massachuset-colony in new-england on may 23, 1689. 124 p. in various pagings. printed by s. green & sold by joseph browning, boston : 1690. "a sermon preached to the honourable convention of the governour, council, and representatives of the massachuset-colony in new-england on may 23, 1689," has special t.p. and separate pagination. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng congregationalism -sermons. thanksgiving day addresses. sermons, english -17th century. 2003-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-03 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-04 john latta sampled and proofread 2003-04 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-06 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the wonderful works of god commemorated . praises bespoke for the god of heaven , in a thanksgiving sermon ; delivered on decemb. 19. 1689. containing just reflections upon the excellent things done by the great god , more generally in creation and redemption , and in the government , of the world ; but more particularly in the remarkable revolutions of providence which are every where the matters of present observation . with a postscript giving an account of some very stupendous accidents , which have lately happened in france . by cotton mather . to which is added a sermon preached unto the convention of the massachuset-colony in new-england . with a short narrative of several prodigies , which new-england hath of late had the alarms of heaven in . printed at boston by s. green. & sold by ioseph browning at the corner of the prison lane , and benj. harris at the london coffee-house . 1690 copy at the convention of the governour and council , and representatives of the colony of the massachusets bay. it having pleased the god of heaven to mitigate his many frowns upon us in the summer past , with a mixture of some very signal favours , and in the midst of wrath so far to remember mercy ; that our indian enemies have had a check put upon their designs of blood and spoil ; that others have not s●en their desires accomplished upon us ; and that we have such hopes of our god's adding yet more perfection to our deliverances : inasmuch also , as the great god hath of late raised up such a defence to the protestant religion and interest abroad in the world , especially in the happy accession of their majesties our sovereigns , king william and queen mary to the throne . it is therefore ordered , that thursday the nineteenth instant , be kept as a day of thanksgiving throughout this colony ; and all servile labour labour on said day is hereby inhibited : and the several ministers and assemblies are exhorted to observe the same , by celebrating the just praises of the almighty god , of whose tender mercies it is that we are not consumed . by order of the convention , isaac addington secr. boston decemb. 3d. 1689 : to the right worshipful sir henry ashurst , baronet . sir , t is an obscure pen , among the antipodes of that world in which you dwell , which now waits upon you , to let you understand , that there is an england in america , as well as one in europe , which the name of ashurst has been no less dear , than known , unto . upon that expression in the sacred scripture , cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness , there is an interpreter who imagines that the regiones exterae of america are the tenebrae exteriores , which the unprofitable are there condemned unto . doubtless the authors of those ecclesiastical impositions and severities , which drove our predecessors into this american wilderness , esteemed those old puritans to be a very unprofitable sort of creatures ; and we their children , desire with much humiliation to confess and lament our own unprofitableness ; not without our wonder , that any party in our nation , should propound unto themselves any profit , by endeavouring our further misery . we nevertheless flatter our selves with hopes , that as while we sat under the shadows of our charters we at least made the other parts of the english america to be profitable unto the crown of our king , so the church of our god in the other hemil●h●re , will not excommunicate us from their fellowship and affection , when 't is considered , that the exercise of the protestant religion in the purest and fullest reformation , is that very thing which this considerable plantation was first built upon . he that shall travel over new-england , will find a large countrey fill'd with churches , which i may without vanity call golden candlesticks , in this outer darkness , and which are illuminated with able , faithful and laborious ministers , among whom the person who now addresses you , is no more worthy to be reckoned , than the seventh which appears not among the pleiad●s , is to be counted one of the seven stars . these churches , in their doctrine , do profess , and in their worship , do practise , most intirely the protestant religion , as our confession of faith , with our platform of church discipline , has made notorious ; and though they want the liturgies and holydays and ceremonies , which were not conceived before the man of sin was born , they do but approach thereby the nearer to that primitive christianity , which will be our glory , while we continue in it . it is in these churches that we have long seen the goings of god our king , for the regeneration , and edification of multitudes , who after an arrival to a pitch of holiness equal to what any part of this lower world affords , have gone to the spirits of iust men made perfect ; and though a decay of piety has accompanied an inercase of people in the midst of us , yet even among vs of the third generation , the god of our fathers , hath such a number of serious , gracious , fruitful christians , as encourages our hopes , that he still has reserves of mercy for us . 't is in these churches ( however degenerate ) that one may see discipline managed , heresy subdued , prophaness conquered , & communion maintained , with a very beautiful subserviency to the great ends of the gospel . and if after all the printed books , not only of our cotton , shepard , hocker , bulkley , mather , davenport , cobbet , norton , newman , whiting , mitchel , and the rest now asleep of the former generation , but also of our higgin●on , fitch , morton , wigglesworth , allen , moodey , torrey , wil●ard , baily , stoddard , ( not to mention my own fathers both english and latine composures ) thro' the favour of god , yet alive among us , we must be judg'd unprofitable to the church of god abroad , yet the prodigious and atlaean industry of the reverend eli●t and of those whom that venerable saint yet lives to see succeeding him in cares for evangelizing the poor pagans here , must be own'd profitable to those , whose outer darkness we are sent into . but the right of these churches , to a good reputation with all them , that have any value for the protestant religion , is not more palpable , than the wrong which has been sometimes ignorantly , and sometimes maliciously done unto us , by them that have baited us for the sake of the bear-skins , which themselves have put upon us . never was any thing more wicked than the calumny , with loads whereof our enemies compelled our fathers in the infancy of this plantation , to do as divers of those , whom they call , the fathers , did of old , even , to write apologies ; nor can any thing be more slanderous and romantic , than the accusations that some ill men have more lately traduced wit●al ; one may see the very spirit of persecution revived in them ! nevertheless , after all the banter of our adversaries , as i would never desire an easter task , than to prove , that their majesties have not in all their dominions , more loyal subjects than the people of new-england , so 't is evident enough , that where any real miscarriage has procured one , our zeal for the protestant religion in the power of it ▪ has procured more than ten of the complaints that have been made against us . and therefore , we not only challenge an interest among the reformed churches , in whose comforts we cannot but rejoice , as we have most inquisitively and affectionately mourned in their sorrows ; but we also expect the friendship of all those particular persons who are well affected unto the stones of zion , and take pity on the dust thereof . as 't is a thing too observable to be denyed , or concealed , that tho' we are a very unworthy people , yet the haters of new-england stil find themselves pushing hard against the great stone , so i believe none of those noble persons who have been sincerely concerned for our wellfare , will ever see cause to repent of it ; but goodness and mercy shall follow them all their days . blessed be the god of our fathers , that albeit we are as an outcast , yet it may not be said , no man has cared for us ! there were three knights among our first patentees ; it calls for our extreamest gratitude if there have been more of that , or another quality willing to be our patrons . and sir , whereas you have been pleased your self to let the world know , how much you are desirous to see new-england flourish , you will pardon it if one born and bred in that countrey , and a son of the colledge there , take the liberty to acquaint you , that we are not insensible . that you are , my fathers friend , is a thing that lays me under obligations ; but your being new-englands friend , is a thing which we would all resent ; and though the dedication of these two little sermons to your name , does not , take of the best fruits of the land , as a present for you , yet i humbly ask your acceptance of them , as a part of our acknowledgments . among the other curiosities of new-england , one is that of a mighty rock on a perpendicular side whereof by a river , which at high tide covers part of it , there are very deeply engraved , no man alive knows how or when , about half a score lines , near ten foot long , and a foot and half broad , filled with strange characters ; which would suggest as odd thoughts about them that were here before us , as there are odd shapes in that elaborate monument ; whereof you shall see , the first line transcribed here . sir , i take leave to add , that the english people here will study to have the kindnesses of their benefactors , not less durably , hut more intelligibly recorded with them , than what the indian people have engraved upon rocks ; and therefore it is , that you shall now publickly find your person and family mentioned in our prayers to the god of heaven , for your enjoyment of all the prosperity engaged unto them that love ierusalem . the voices that ascend from the thrones of the lord jesus here are asking for you , grace and glory and every good thing : and among them , there are my own wishes , that the son ▪ and the church of god may find you their knight which is to say ( in english ) an hearty servant , and that in the day when such a word will be esteem'd above ten thousand worlds , you may hear a well done ! from the mouth of our glorious judge . 't is with these , that i subscribe my self . sir , your most humble and most obedient servant cotton mather . praises bespoke for the god of heaven , in a thanksgiving sermon . it is written in isai. xii . 5 . sing unto the lord , for he hath done excellent things ; this is known in all the earth . our blessed saviour , being to preach upon a text , fetcht out of that very book from whence we have now taken ours , began his holy sermon , with sayings this day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears . 〈◊〉 is by an unhappy encounter of gods mercies and your desires , that upon the reading of the text now before us , i may in like manner , close the book , and say , this day is this text fulfilled amongst us . truly t is known abroad , that our god has done excellent things ; and for this cause we are with no less grounded than solemn thnksgivings endeavouring to sing unto the lord. behold a word of the day in its day here provided for you . may our further considering and understanding of the text , but promote our fuller conformi●y thereunto , and more exactly imprint the shapes of this heavenly mould upon us . as the noble prophet isaiah , is in the books of the new-testament quoted perhaps no less than threescore times ; thus the dayes of the new-testament are those which his prophecies have their frequent and special references to . among other employments of this angelical , and evangelical pen , one was the preparing of sacred songs , for the use of the church , in the circumstances which there had been predictions of ; and so , besides the psalms which common conjectures have ascribed unto this prophet the composing of ; the forty-sixth particularly , which in imitat●on of the great luther , we may at this day make the anodyne of our cares ▪ we have two inspired songs in this chapter laid before us ; in the first of the songs , the confessors of god endeavour themselves to celebrate the praises of that eternal one ; in the next they endeavour to excite and engage others unto a consort with them in this glorious exercise . and here we have the text which we are now to descant upon . [ in that day ye shall say ] but what day is that day ? we must be beholden unto the foregoing chapter , for an answer thereunto . we there find , that there will a day come , when the lord will set his hand again the second time , to recover the remnant of his people : which will be when the tribes of lost israel are converted unto the faith of the lord jesus ; when according to the language of the new-testament , all israel shall be saved . there will a day come , when the root of iesse shall stand for an ensign for the people : which will be at the second coming of our lord ; when according to the phrase taken by our saviour from this very place , the sign of the son of man shall appear . there will a day come , when the lord shall with the breath of his lips , slay the wicked ; which will be when antichrist shall perish by the fiery approach of the lord jesus , to take vengeance on his wickedest enemy : when according to the phrase taken by the apostle also from this very place , the lord shall consume that wicked one with the breath of his mouth , and shall destroy him with the brightnesr of his coming . t is that day which the song now before us , is peculiarly calculated for . but certainly , we that are only getting into the dawnings of that day , are not excluded from all medling with it ; no , it is written for our admonition . in the words to be now handled , we have two things first , the doings of god are here mentioned . it is said , he hath done excellent things : or as the original imports , great things , and high things : or as it may likewise be rendred magnificent , and illustr●ous things . the hebrew word ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) is indeed a substantive ; and it intimates , that the works of god are even excellency in the abstract , and majesty it self . and the chaldee paraphrase here fitly puts upon them the term of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or magnalia , noting in them something eminent and powerful . such things are done by him , who is wonderful in working ! secondly , the duties of men are then specified hereupon . since excellent things are done by god , there are two things to be done by us . first , we are to sing the praises of god. it is ●here said , sing unto the lord. and such is the expression in the holy style , as to signifie , not only an exactness , but also an instrument used in the song . we are with a sacred musick to magnifie the god , who is worthy to be praised . secondly , we are to spread the praises of god. it is here said , this is known in all the earth ; but the version which is by some chosen for it rather is , let this be known in all the earth : we should not only our selves do it , , but likewise provoke and excite all the earth to take notice of what wonders have been done by him who is fearful in praises . wherefore the truth to be now entertained with us , is , that it should be our study to sing and spread the praises due to the eternal god , for the excellent things which are done by him in the world. it is by the propounding of two or three conclusions that this doctrine , will have its due advantages . proposition i. there are multitudes of praises due to the god of heaven from us . to praise god , is to acknowledge the persections that are in him ; 't is to acknowledge the infinite power , wisdom , goodness , justice and holiness , which are his attributes ; and this we are to do , in all our ways . we have received our being for this end ; and our grand , our chief errand into the world , is , that our god may have a number of rational beholders to be sensible of his excellencies . when mankind came first out of his glorious hand , he then said , as in isa. 43.21 . this people have i formed for my self , they shall shew forth my praise . in our lower little world , no creatures can be found capable of conceiving and expressing those acknowledgments of god , which are , the glory due unto his name , besides man ; who is therefore not unfitly called , the high-priest of the creation . the devout psalmist once called upon all creatures , with a repeated invitation , praise ye the lord ; but they all reply that man is to do it for them , and they all therefore conspire to offer the notices of the almighty god unto mans affectionate contemplation . to praise god , is to acknowledge in him something excellent , as 't is said in psal. 148.13 . let them praise the name of the lord , for his name alone is excellent ; thus , when we acknowledge an excellency in all those manifestations which god maketh of himself ; then 't is that we praise him. now the praises owing to the god of heaven from us , are obliged not only by what he is , but also by what he does : indeed by what he does it is that we come to learn what he is . we ought to acknowledge an excellency in the nature of god ; which is to ascribe glory to him. the language of our praises is to be that in psal. 89.6 . who can be compared , who can be likened , unto the lord ? god should be truly transcendent with us . we should apprehend , that as the name of our god is , i am , so all other beings are as meer non-entities in comparison of him ; subscribing to that in isa. 40.17 . all are before him as nothing . we should apprehend the being of god , so independent , so unchangeable , so mysterious , as no other being is ; and with dazzled souls fall into such praises as to say , i cannot find out the almighty to perfection . the perfections that are in the almighty god should even astonish our understandings ; and fetch the exclamations of moses from us , in exod. 15.11 . who is like unto thee , o lord , who is like unto thee ? one while our praises are like hannahs , to say . there is none holy as the lord ! another while our praises are like ethans to say , who is a strong god like unto thee ? sometimes our praises , like pauls , are to say , god is only wise ; and sometimes again , god is true , but every man a lyar ; and then with david , we are to praise and say , o how great is thy goodness ! but the excellency which is in the works of god , is that which renders the glory of his essence , most apparent unto us ; and the praises which we are to bring unto him , are in a great measure to spring from thence . we are told in isa. 28.29 . the lord of hosts is excellent in working . our praises of god , are in this to find the reasons of them , he has done excellent things . first , we ought with many praises to observe the excellent things which god has done for our selves . as the psalmist call'd upon himself , in psal. 103.1 . bless the lord , o my soul , and forget not all his benefits ; thus ought we to reflect upon the many benefits and kindnesses of the most high towards our selves , with praises too many to be numbred , too hearty to be ended . we ought to see something of god , in all our circumstances , and upon all that happens to us , we are to say , the lord be magnify'd ! but there are some excellent things done for us , by our god ; things which no friend , no hand , none else could have done for our good ; and these things we should with suitable praises be particularly grateful for . it is the manner of the iems , to receive the comforts of their lives , with a baruk adonai , or blessed be the lord. we that are christians may not suffer our selves to be exceeded by any people , in thankfulness unto god. it is related concerning our lo●d jesus christ , in john 6.11 . that he would not eat a meals meat , without a thanksgiving over it . much more ought the more excellent things that are done for us , to be so acknowledged . when god had heard a prayer , there was that praise returned for it , in john 11.41 . father , i thank thee for it . we ought seriously to think , what answers of our prayers , what reliefs of our wants and woes , the great god has in an excellent manner favoured us withal ; and the result of all should be , lord , i thank thee for these excellent things . a good hezekiah himself may smart by failing here . those persons are worse than pharisees , in whose mouths god be thanked , is not a frequent but yet solemn interject on . secondly , we ought with many praises to observe the excellent things which god has done for others as well as for our selves . our praises must not be confined unto those mercies of god , which we our selves have been the subjects of . but all his dispensations abroad in the world , are to be the occasion of our hallelujahs to him. a soul that is fill'd with all the fullness of god , will be filled with praises to him for all his workmanship . we should be like him that said , in psal 139.14 . i will praise thee , for marvellous are thy works . whatever our god is doing , we should upon the sight thereof be praising ; and we should acknowledge him , in all those excellent things , which we see done in any part of the universe . it was said in psal. 40.5 . many , o lord , my god , are the wonderful works which thou hast done . god has done many wonderful works , and many excellent things , in which we our selves have not an immediate , or at least not a peculiar share ; but we should all render praises unto him on the account thereof . it is mentioned as the priviledge of a righteous man , in psal. 112.9 . his horn shall be exalted . what if one thing intended in it should be this ? that as the praises of god were sounded by his people , in cornets of old , so there were exalted horns , or exalted notes , which he would have their praises to be raised with . thus we read in 1 chron. 25.5 . of , words to lift up the horn ▪ to accommodate the allusion ; the praises of god are to sound high , in our devotions . when we praise god for being excellently good unto our selves , we do well ; but we are to raise our praises unto an higher pitch than so ; they are to expatiate upon all those things , wherein our god has exhibited himself as excellently great , throughout the world such abstracted praises are agreeable to the inclinations of every godly man ; he argues at that rate , great is the lord , and therefore greatly to be praised . proposition ii. we ought both to sing , and to spread , the praises which we owe unto the god of heaven . behold , a double office incumbent on us , with respect unto those acknowledgments which we are to pay unto our god ; beside and beyond the first motions of them , in our own souls . indeed the spring of all the acknowledgments which we make unto god , must be in our hearts , and the gracious opinions and resentmen●s which are first formed there . we must first look to this , that god be praised by the thoughts in our minds , and , as the psalmist speaks , by , all that is within us blessing his holy name . they never will praise god sufficiently or acceptably , who cannot say , as in luke 1.46 . my soul does magnify the lord. as all worship of god , so particularly , all praising of god , must be performed in spirit ; otherwise it will not be in truth . but the praises of god , being shaped in the honourable thoughts of our souls , what are we then to do ? first , we are to sing the praises due to god for the excellent things that he hath done . and if we keep close to the text , we shall see two things here demanded of us . first , there should be an exactness used , in our praising of god. there should be in our praises ▪ as on one side an amputation of all that is improper , so on the other side no omission of any article that calls for our meditations . the charge given to us is that in psal. 103.2 . forget not all his benefits . we should not forget so much as one of the excellent things , which we can remember to be done by god. the skipping of one stroke in a lesson , often spoils the grace of the musick . so does the missing of one thing , in a commemoration of what god has done . we should be careful with an often , yea with a daily examination , to inform our selves , about the things for which god is to be praised . it is hardly convenient for a man to sleep at night , until he have pondered , what new excellent thing has been done by god this day , that i should particularly praise him for ? and we should be careful that our sorrows do not swallow up our praises . 't is often so , that as that worthy woman of old could not eat of the peace offerings , which was a thank-offering , because she wept ; thus we can't praise god , because he smites us . we cannot see excellent things done by god , because we feel terrible thins done to our selves . but this is our folly. where we have one trouble , we have a thousand mercies of our own to be praising for . and if we were a million times more afflicted than we are , yet the lord might challenge our praises . it was a great speech of the renowned gerson , quiequid deme ordinaverit deus , said he , however god may dispose of me for ever , whether to eternal weal or wo ; yet this i know , that he is worthy of my praises , and he shall have them all . indeed praises are a debt owing to him , even from those woful spirits that are broken in the place of dragons , and covered with the shadow of death . secondly , there should also be an instrument used in our praising of god. but of what kind ? far be it from us to plead for that which is properly instrumental music in the church of the lord jesus . indeed before the coming of our lord , there was in the church a divine appointment for such a thing ▪ and between the neginoth and the nehiloth , i find , if i miscount not , sixteen or more kinds of instruments for the maintaining of it . but upon the abolition of the mosaic pedagogy , we have no order for the continuance of this temple worship , by introducing of it into our synagogues . the primitive church had it not , as even a bellarmine tells you ; the ancients often & loudly declaim against it , and aquinas himself about four hundred years ago , notwithstanding all his popery and bigottry , yet bestows none of the kindest remarks upon it . the schoolmen themselves own , that aliquid fig●rabat , it was a typical thing ; and we having in the tydings of the gospel that grace and joy which this was a figure of , ought not to iudaize by upholding the shadow in the presence of the substance ; nor ought we to bring into the house of god , a troop of officers which the lord jesus never instituted . what instruments are we then to praise god withal ? we are all furnished with two at least . first , our lips are to be employed in the praises of god. the psalmist called his tongue my glory . our tongues are then our glory , when we glorifie god therewith all . 't is a proper service for them ; hence the apostle sayes , therewith we bless god. it is desired for the saints in psal. 149 6. let the high praises of god be in their mouthes . and it is resolved by one of them , in psal. 145.21 . my mouth shall speak the praises of the lord. hence the apostle urges it , in heb. 13.15 let us offer the sacrifice of praises to god continually , that is the fruit of our lips . there were offerings of many sorts , which god was praised withal of old ; but our lips are to be instead of the calves and lambs , and other euchrristical offerings that then were customary . with our lips we are to rehearse and recite the excellent things that have been done by god , especially when we are with bended knees and listed eyes , presenting our selves before him . with mentioning what god has done , we are to do as he said , in psal 145.2 . every day will i bless thee my god. but there is one exercise of our lips which god is more peculiarly to be praised with ; and that is the singing of psalms . in those commands of god which require the praises of god , even in our dayes , we have such clauses as those , in psal. 95 1. o come , let us sing to the lord , let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation . the new testament sufficiently inculcates this way of praising the most high ; and if you will believe tertullian , the primitive christians hardly ever had a feast without it . there are savoury hymns , of an humane composure , which no doubt we may praise god by singing of . but scriptural and inspired hymns are those which we should principally thus put regards upon . the psalms of david are those which god is to be praised by a reverent , and attentive singing of . these were those , no doubt which our saviour himself sang , at the passover , more than a score of times . and the very angels whose melodies the shepherds overheard of old , seem to sing out of the eighty fifth psalm . hence when the apostle says , in eph. 5.19 . speak to your selves in psalms and hymns , and spiritual songs ; he alludes to the well-known division of the psalter . q. d. go sing all the psalms of david over . till we can mend them , never let us leave them . he that shall sing those blessed psalms , and ordinarily spend at least one observation , and one ejaculation , upon every verse , as he goes along , will therein praise the great god , at no common rate . secondly , our lives are likewise to be employ'd in the praises of god. we have hands as well as tongues for it ; and some thing there is that our hand finds to do . the best thanksgiving is thanks-living . we should sometimes put that question to our selves , in psal. 116.12 . what shall i render to the lord for all his benefits ? as a return to god for the excellent things that are done by him , we are to order our lives in such a manner as may be pleasing to him . hence in psal. 50.23 . he that offers praise , and he that orders his conversation aright , are equivolent . there is a general return of obedience , which we are to praise god by yielding of . it is said in phil. 1 . 1● . the f●uit's of righteousness are unto the glory and praise of god. where god had carried israel over iordan , there were ston●s erected for his praise ; but what was inscribed on them ? was it any history of what and been done by god ? no , it was a copy of the law. our keeping the law is our praising of him that gave it . we praise god when we seen and blush to do any thing that he may be displeased at . there is also a special return of well-doing which we should now and then praise god withal . as when david had seen many mighty things done by god , he became inquisitive , in 2 sam. 7.2 what shall i now do for the house of god ? so some signal act of piety , or of charity should be done by us , that god may not be without his praise . we praise god when we are labouring to do some singular thing , for the advancement of his truths and wayes . secondly vve are to spread the praises due to god for the excellent things that he has done . yea , our outmost is to be done that they may be known in all the earth . a good man desires that he may not be alone in the praising of god , he would have all men to joyn with him in it . it is therefore said by such a man , come , i will declare what god has done f●r my soul. we are to praise god as publickly and as openly as we can ; and to say like him in psal. 22.25 . my praise shall be of thee , in the great congregation . and we are to do what we fairly can , that the excellent things done by god , may not be concealed things , but that all men may be acquainted with them : so are we advised in psal. 105.1 , 2. give thanks to the lord , make known his deeds among the people : sing unto him , talk ye of all his wondrous works . we should render them as notorious as they are notable ; and publish them among all our neighbours , as the happy partakers did the healing miracles of our lord jesus christ. hence it was the wish of the psalmist , in psal. 26.7 . that i may publish with the voice of thanksgiving , and tell of all thy wondrous works . yea , when god has done excellent things , we are not only to speak of them , but ( if we can ) to write of them too . every good man should leave to his children , a diary for a legacy . some written memorials and experi●nc●s of excellent things which a good man in the time of his pilgrimage hath seen done by the most high : these would be well worth beq●e●thing to them that should come after him , that they may set their hope in god. and the more considerable appearances of god in every generation , ought with a fuller publication to be transmitted unto posterity , by the pens of good historians , that we have no more books of remarkable providences , is an omission that has wrong'd and rob'd the almighty god of more than a million praises : there should be compiled sufficient narratives of the excellent things , occurring in every age and , every place ; like the books of iasher , and nathan , and iddo , and other seers ; or like the pillars among many monuments of antiquity . what shall i say more ? when god has done a more conspicuously excellent thing , he is to be praised after that manner , in psal. 102.18 . this shall be written for the generation to come , and the people that shall be created shall praise the lord. but it remains , that these things be made useful to us . application . and o that we might all stir up our selves this day to sing and spread the praises due to the eternal god for the excellent things which he has done . it is an excellent thing indeed , that we may have a day of thanksgiving , while the world is in so much confusion and combustion , and every where mens hearts are failing them for fear , and for looking after those things which are doing upon the earth . let us be at some pains , that this day be not lost , or that it may not evaporate in a few sensual satisfactions . the excellent things done by god , are now to be the repast of our souls . days of thanksgiving as they are among the most heavenly , so they will be among the most prosperous of all our devotions . there are pious men that will now and then in secret places , keep their dayes of thanksgiving before the lord ; laying out whole dayes in praising of the great god for what he is , and what he does , and in pondering on what they shall do for god. and i 'll assure you , such persons ripen for heaven a pace ; yea they live in heaven upon earth . but as for dayes of thanksgiving observed in the assemblies of good men , all men have seen the wonderful successes of them . new englands prosperity has more visibly followed upon its thanksgivings than upon its humiliations , as in times both of war and of sickness , has been more than once perceived . we have seen the fulfilment of that word in 2 chron. 20.22 . when they began to sing and to praise , the lord set ambushments against their enemies . praises , thousands of high praises be to our god , that we may have a day to celebrate his praises . but that our praises may be awakened , and that no man may make a iar in our harmony . consider how reasonable these praises are for us all . o consider with our selves , who is god ? it is he that humbles himself to behold the things that are in heaven . consider , who is man ? a poor worm , yea , a cursed viper . now that this god should look upon this man ! lord , what is man that thou shouldest be mindful of him ? yet the eternal god has been doing of excellent things , which we not only behold , but also enjoy . there is not one of us all , who has not excellent things to be this day praising the almighty for . they whose case is never so bad , yet have cause to carry on this day of thanksgiving with us , in that it is no worse . the most miserable person in all this congregation , may with an eye to his own condition , say like him in psal. 119.156 . many are thy mercies o lord. if i could find out the most unhappy , and the most complaining person among you all , even to that person would i say , god has done excellent things for thee , and some that never sinned so much , yet suffer more than you . consider likewise , how profitable these praises will be to us all . behold an expedient for the obtaining of all the blessings that can be wish'd for . it was said in psal. 67.5 , 6. let the people praise thee ; then our god shall bless us . if the earth send vapours up to heaven , heaven will make showers to descend on the earth . let our praises be continually ascending from us , and they will soon issue in those things that are called , the showers of blessing . when we have a jealousie of a leaky vessel , we try it by first putting of water , before we trust better liquors in it ; if we that have little more than water to comfort us , will yet not permit it to leak without praises from us , then god has more excellent things to do for us . to be always begging and craving , as a dog for his morsels , ad spem futuri semper hians , without multiplyed praises unto god ; this is a most vile disingenuity . 't is no less than a loss of , yea , no less than a curse on , all our blessings , which we incurr by not praising the giver of them . but the praising soul may fill himself with such a ioyful hope , as that in psal. 71.14 . i will hope continually , and will yet praise thee more and more . those that are sollicitous least god should loose any of his praises , are the persons , for whom god will be concerned that they don't loose any of his blessings ; these are they that shall experimentally understand the loving kindness of the lord. man , wouldest thou have any excellent things done for thy self ? then bring thy praises for what excellent things have been done in the world . i suppose by this time , we have generally got our hallelujahs ready ; but you call for a catalogue of those excellent things , which they are to be fixed on . 't is a feast that you are this day to be treated at ; and before you go out of these doors , a feast you shall have . i shall set before you a short account of some excellent things , which i intend as a feast for your praises ; and believe me , though your praises had [ and o that they may have ! ] no less than an eternity to be feeding on those matters in , they never would be glutted , never cloyed . first , the excellent things done by god , in the works of creation , call for our praises . it was once the out-cry of the psalmist , in a rapture , praise the lord from the heavens , praise the lord from the earth , praise the lord all ye his armies . truly , 't is our business to praise him , for the heavens , and for the earth , and for all those armies which he has replenished the world withal . we have a good pattern for us , in psal 104.24 , 33. says the psalmist , o lord , how manifold are thy works ! in wisdom hast thou made them all . well , and what is now incumbent upon us , that have the view thereof ? it follows , i will sing praise unto my god , while i have any being . methinks the children of men too much imitate the spider , when they look after nothing but building a little house for themselves , and concern themselves with nothing but the petty affairs thereof . we should remember that we are citizens of the world , and as far as we can , we should visit every corner of it , with our praises to him , of whom and for whom is all ! i make no question , but that we do in a blessed manner antedate heaven , by doing so . the praises of god are exhibited in every part of the world , and we forfeit the priviledge of reason , if we do not put as many of them as we can , into our a●knowledgments . there are above six thousand plants growing on that little spot of the world , which we tread upon ; and yet a learned man , has more than once , found one vegetable enough to make a subject for a treatise on it . what might then be said upon the hundred and fifty quadrupeds , the hundred and fifty volatils , the five and twenty reptiles , besides the vast multitudes of aquatils , added unto the rich variety of gems and minerals , in our world ? our own bodies are , to use the phrase of the psalmist , so fearfully and wonderfully made , that one of the ancient heathen at the sight thereof ▪ could not forbear breaking forth into an hymn unto the praise of the great creator ; 't is impossible that any thing should be better shaped ! indeed , all the things that we have every day before our eyes , have a most charming prospect in them ; and the very deformities which the flood has brought upon this terraquecus globe , are made beauties , by the disposals of the lord that sat upon the flood . there is not a fly , but what may confute an atheist . and the little things which our naked eyes cannot penetrate into , have in them a greatness not to be seen without astonishment . by the assistence of microscopes have i seen animals of which many hundreds would not aequal a grain of sand. how exquisite , how stupendous must the structure of them be ! the wholes that are sometimes found more than an hundred foot in length , methinks those moving islands , are not such wonders , as these minute fishes are . but alas , all this globe is but as a pins point , if compared with the mighty universe . never did any man yet make a tolelerable guess at its dimensions : but were we among the stars , we should utterly lose the sight of our earth , although it be above twenty six thousand italian miles in the compass of it . look upon the wandring stars , and you shall see so many worlds , that swallow up all our conjectures at the circumstances of them , and of their satellites . look upon the fixed st●●s , and what shall we say about the bigness of them ? doubtless they many scores of times exceed the bulk of this poor lump of clay , about a few foot whereof the inhabitants are so quarrelsome . or , what shall we say about the number of them ? for though they are but a few above a thousand , that we ever see , without a telescope , yet that will tell us , that the six , which we commonly call , the seven stars , have above sixty among them , and the rest are like the sand of the sea , innumerable . but above all , the sun , that p●●ncipal engine , which the whole visible creation hath such a manifest dependence on ; this declares the glory of god , at such a rate , that the philosopher once thought himself born on purpose , to behold the splendors of it . this at last hath glar'd out my eyes , that at this time , i can look no further upon the marvels of the creation . but , my brethren , let us take our time to travel over the world ; ( i hope , we shall one day have bodies more able to do it , than our spirits at present are ! ) and then let us give many thousands of praises to him , whose omnipotent and omniscient hand hath created all . o sing unto the lord , because he hath done excellent things , in making and managing the vast fabrick of the world. secondly , the excellent things done by god , in the works of redemption call for our praises . it was the exordium of a psalm , in psal. 107.1 , 2. o give thanks unto the lord , for he is good ; let the redeemed of the lord say so . behold , a constellation of excellent things here which the very angels at this day are with a million praises adoring of . could we steal a look this day into the third heaven , we should see the multitude of the heavenly host there clapping of their golden wings , and hear them reiterating that heavenly shout , in luke 2.14 . glory to god in the highest , because there is on earth peace , and good will towards men . when the blessed angels beheld the horrible pit which man by sin was fallen down into , doubtless they were even at their wits ends about a way for his reeovery ; doubtless with pity and much despair , they cry'd out , alas , for miserable man ; he is helpless and hopeless now for ever ! but they have now seen a remedy provided for undone wretched man , and therein they see , what they s●●●p and bend themselves to pry into ; they see the manifold wisdom of god ; and they have ever since , even for more than five thousand years , been praising of the god , that has remembred us in our low estate , because his mercy endures for ever . that there should be a man , who was born perhaps in september , not seventeen hundred years ago , and who yet is the father of eternity ; a man who lay in a cradle , and who yet cannot be contain'd by the heaven of heavens ; a man , who is his own mothers father , in a word , a man , in whom dwells the fulness of the god-head , and from whose fulness , all we receive ! behold an excellent thing which the very angels cover their faces at . no man living is able to comprehend the triumphant praises that were among the angels of god , when our saviour was first born into the world . when the sun of righteousness first shone in our horizon , doubtless these morning stars were presently making their acclamations at it . the tidings of it were quickly carried through all the quarters of the heavens , and the whole city of god was moved at the report . when it was told , the redeemer of l●st man is born ! it set them all on praising the most high god , and saying , glory , glory to the highest , in the highest for ever ! well , they call us , their brethren , and from the lofty battlements of the third heaven , they call unto us , that we would not leave them to praise alone . a famous minister lying at the point of death , after he had been for some time sensless , fell to singing in a manner very extraordinary , and gave this reason for it , i heard the angels , and shall not i joyn with them ! surely our interest in redemp●●●● is not inferiour to theirs ; but then strike up , ye redeemed of the lord ; where , o where are the praises due to him that hath delivered you from all the fiery plagues , which you have madly expos'd yourselves unto . what could we children of wrath have imagined , but that a just and a terrible god would have said concerning us , i will aveng● me on those adversaries ! but instead thereo● behold , he has ready for us , a iesus , wh● saves his people from their sins ; and th●● calls aloud unto us , o look unto me , and 〈◊〉 saved . this is an excellent thing ! 't is a● excellent thing which god has done , in 〈◊〉 loving the world as to give his only begotte● son , that whosoever believes , may not perish ▪ but have everlasting life . 't is an excellen● thing which god has done , in ordering that he who thought it no robbery to be equal with god , should take on him the form of a servant for us thereby to gain the dignity of chil●dren . 't is an excellent thing , that he wh● knew no sin , should be made sin for us ; and w● be made the righteousness of god in him ; an● that we who have lain in the belly of hell should be renewed by the holy spirit , and 〈◊〉 made to sit together in heavenly places 〈◊〉 christ iesus . i am to tell you , that the blackest of all the devils are saints , in comparison of that man , whom these excellen● things do not effectually bespeak all possible praises from . but you that by regeneration are arrived unto a more plenary , actual sensible interest in this redemption , are 〈◊〉 be more abundant in your praises , o strai● the utmost of your capacities , to shew fo● the praises of him , who has called you out 〈◊〉 darkness into his marvellous light ; come , sing unto the lord , because he has done excellent things in the recovering of lost man to an intimate , and eternal fellowship with himself . thirdly , the excellent things done by god in the gover●ment of the world , call upon us to praise his blessed name for ever . the continual providence of god , is disposing of all things in an excellent subordination to his own praise ; the w●eels of providence are not carried on caeco impetu , but are full of eyes , and if we praise him not for things that every day occur unto us , t is because we are worse than blind . these two things are conjo●ned in psal. 103.19 , 20. the lords kingdom ●uleth over all , bless ye the lord. we may see our eternal king after an excellent manner keeping all the world in a real order , notwithstanding all the seeming distractions of it . we may see him fulfilling of his promises and his threa●nings , and giving recompences among the children of men we may see him frustrating and confounding of his enemies , and preserving his church , as a burning bush not consumed . we should pursue a distinct sight of these things , and bless the lord. when we see , that his is the kingdome , we should adde , and thine is the glory too . my arrival to this part of our discours● puts me into a capacity to give you som● recapitulations of the excellent things which this day of thanksgiving is more pa●●ticularly designed for . my brethren , there are excellent thing which our god has of late been doing i● the english world. he that moves the fo●● wheels of providence through all the fo●● parts of the earth , has given the english nation lately to see those revolutions which the histories of all ages can hardly parallel and now let us this day sing unto the lord for he hath done excellent things . i. the late revolutions in the land o● our fore-fathers graves , afford unto us 〈◊〉 sight of excellent things which ought to b● had in everlasting remembrance . and here , the first and great and most comprehensive matter of our praises is , the happy accession of their maiesties , king william , and queen mary , to the throne of the three kingdoms . this was a thing in all the parts of so circumstanced , a● to make all men 〈◊〉 this is the lords doing , and it is marvellous in our eyes ! it made a second eighty eight out-shining that in the former century . for , consider , the season of it . it was when the protestant religion was lying at the stake ; and forreign popish writers did not stick to tell the world in print , that there was a private league made between two of the most potent monarchs in christendome , ( which one of their own ambassadors also ▪ did in a manner own ) for the extirpation of haeresy ; and that not only the subduing of holland , but also the enslaving of england were steps to be taken in order thereunto . it was when the indefatigable drudges of the papacy , who had more than ten years before declared , we have here a mighty work upon our hands , no less than the conversion of three kingdoms , and by that perhaps the utter subduing a pestilent heresy , which has domi●●ered●a long time over a great part of this northern world ; whereof never such hopes as now ; had now got all the advantageous posts of the nation into their hands , and had so model'd all their business that they counted themselves out of the reach of chance for ever ; and were even ready like haman to cast lots for a lucky day to throw all their vizards off . it was when the fundamental laws of the kingdom were overturned , and the frogs of the romistr egypt were swarming in a m●in , to take possession of the glorious holy mountain between the seas ▪ when things were thought hastening to that pass , that every vacancy in the publick employments would have made several proselytes unto popery ; when a great creation would suddenly have given the papists a majority in the house of lords , and new charters with bold returns might quickly have given them a majority in the house of commons too ; a condition of affairs that was formidable to all that penetrate into the tendencies of popery . then it was that the ( then ) prince of orange entred upon his glorious enterprize of rescuing the church of god from the bloody altar , which it was now bound upon ; and the protestant princes combining with him , offered up their vows to god , for the prosperity of this important undertaking , as counting that in the miscarriage of it , all was lost. there had been one or two attempts made before , but a wrong step taken in them , onely brought a ruine upon the unhappy people engaged therein . the popish party were then slash'd with their successes , and forgot of sl●ghted the dying words of one whom they burnt ( t is said ) for only relieving distrested sufferer ; though you are seemingly ●xed , and using your violence against those whom ●ou have got under you , yet unless you can secure ●he lord iesus christ , and all his holy angels , ●ou shall never do your business ; but vengeance ●ill be upon you , before you are aware . consider also the manner of it . it was ●he expecta●ion which the late earl of ar●le expired withal , that god would ac●omplish his work , not by might , nor by ●ower , but by his own most holy spirit . and it has been done ! the spirit of god incli●ed the dutch to give their great prince 〈◊〉 the assistence that could be given . when●e navy , with such wonderful turns of 〈◊〉 wind , as argued a particular care of god ●out it , was come into its harbour , the spi●●● of god strangely inclined persons of all ●egrees to an agreement with the princes ●●claration : it was a touch of god upon ●●eir souls ! whence , though the nation ●re debauched on purpose to make popery ac●●ptable to them , yet many thousands that ●re of no religion at all , could not s●ow 〈◊〉 for that religion . the same spirit ●t a terror into the great oppressors of 〈◊〉 nation , so that though there was a vast my to oppose the prince , the very sound his approach , put them to rout , equal to one given by the clearest victory ; and 〈◊〉 they had endeavoured by shams to establish● themselves , one piece of paper , which ( ' ti● said ) was a sham , had no little hand in th● defeat of those daring criminals ; nor wa● any blood shed in all these transactions , bu● of a little and a desperate party that seem●ed weary of their lives , or they might hav● kept them . hence ensued , by the unexem●pled and scarce accountable desertion of th● late king , such a dissolution of the govern●ment as never had been known ; and th● throne becoming vacant , the crown is un●avoidably placed upon , those illustriou● heads , which , god grant long to reign ! and then , consider the prospect of it . fo● what may be now hoped for , but a protest●ant king , iust and ruling in the fear 〈◊〉 god , as a morning without clouds unto th● protestant world ! we now see upon th● british throne , a king , whose unpara●lel'd zeal for the church of the lord jes●● at the lowest ebb , hath made him the ph●●nix of this age ; a king in whom co●●rage and prudence make a temper which 〈◊〉 to be no where seen but in the greatest h●●roes ; a king that scornfully rejected 〈◊〉 soveraignty over his own countrey , wh● he might have have had it , by betraying 〈◊〉 a king , that uses to say , that be can ●annot have so unworthy a conception of god , 〈◊〉 so base thoughts of mankind , as to believe ●hat any one person should be designed by the almighty king , to trample and oppress a society ●laced under him ; a king , that so abhors ●ll persecution , that when he accepted the crown of scotland , he explained a clause ●n the coronation oath , with this proviso , 〈◊〉 will not be obliged to be a persecutor : a king , that has twice had a crown of light , appearing in the heavens over his principa●ity to signalize him unto the world : with him we see a queen , whose virtues ●ad long since enthron'd her in the hearts of the whole english nation : we do not now see a romish dalilah for the philistins to plough withal ; nor is our solomon under ●he temptations which the greatest monarchs have sometimes fell before . what can be hop'd for , but that the chains with which the tyrannous and treacherous grand segniour of france had fetter'd europe , will now be broken ? and that the most monstrous tygre in the world , having the forces of three kingdoms let loose upon him , while he is attack'd with such a general storm on every side as was never seen before , must quickly either perish , or proclaim li●erty for that religion which he has out done all that ever liv'd , for the perscution of 't is an unaccountable coincidence wit● this , that some hundreds of people i● france are lately fallen into prod●gious . ex●tasies wherein being dead asleep , they bot● speak of things and speak with tongues which before they had nothing of ; an● they agree to tell us , the late revolutions england were to begin the deliverance of th● church of god. these are some of the ex●cellent things done by our god! thus a● all the affairs of europe overturned . but there is a further matter for our pra●ses which has followed hereupon ; and 〈◊〉 that are a countrey of nonconformists , ma● not pass it by unmentioned . it is , the repeal of those laws which the protestant dissenters wer● long harassed with . it is well-known , that those whose co●●sciences did not allow them , to worship go● in some ways and modes then by law e●stablished , were not many years ago , perse●cuted with a violence , to be abhorred by a● sober men. it is well known that five an● twenty hundred faithful ministers of th● gospel , were silenced in one black day because they could not comply with som● things , by themselves justly counted , sinful , but by the imposers confess'd indifferent . and it is affirmed , that by a modest calculation , this persecution procured the untimely death of three thousand nonconformists , by imprisonment in noisome goals , and the ruine of threescore thousand fami●ies , within five and twenty years . as the dissenters are far from charging their sufferings upon all that the church of england ●n its national constitution acknowledges or her sons ; for we have seen the most learned and worthy members of that church make their publick pleas for the nonconformists , and boldly beg for moderati●n to them ; and advance this assertion , that ●or every man to worship god according to his conviction , is an essential right of humane nature ; and we have learnt , that the late ●ersecutors were mostly a knot of ill men ●ho professed , that they had rather be pa●●sts than presbyterians , and that they would 〈◊〉 soon be turks as papists ; and who sur●endred themselves as meer tools to a po●●sh party , that thought to grow great upon 〈◊〉 ruines , of both the pa●ties whom they 〈◊〉 set together by the ears : so , i hope , the ●issenters will now forgive and forget the most inhumane injuries that they have ever 〈◊〉 sustained . the severity of that persecution , which at last had broke up the con●gregations of them that had perfected the testimony to the kingly office of th● lord jesus , than celebrating a thanksgi●●ing for it , indeed caused the dissenters 〈◊〉 accept of liberty , tho' upon some ter● which they approved not . you are not i●●norant that we then told you , there wou●● quickly come an earthquake that should ca●●ry on that liberty to more perfection ; an behold it is now done in a parliamenta● way ! blessed be god , that protestants a● come to a better understanding of the true interest ! may the apples of strife ●●mong them now be removed ! may all god men concur in pursuance of that reformati●● which god now calls his church unto and may the reformers have peace among themselves , and ( as one speaks ) war wi●● none but hell and rome . but for 〈◊〉 church of god , in scotland , as their cal●●mities exceeded what their neighbours fe●● which i suppose , the martyrology they pr●●mise us will demonstrate ; so they have 〈◊〉 come behind them in deliverances . what has god wrought ? my brethren , looks as if god had begun the resurrection his dead people . o lord god , thou hast ●●●gun to shew thy servants thy greatness , and mighty hand , for what god is there in heav●● or in earth , that can do according to thy works ? and if so , 't is time for us to lift up our heads , with at least some examination , whether we shall not shortly see the vintage of the papal empire ? whether italy be not near a greater earthquake , than that which made hideous desolations in above thirty cities , towns , and villages there , a little while ago ? whether the blast of the second wo trumpet , be not just expiring , and the turkish power be not within two or three years ( at least ) of that end , which will make him incapable to disturb europe any more . yea , whether the gospel of the lord jesus will not quickly have liberty with an efficacy , not only in popish count●eys where it is restrained ; but also in pagan countreys , in one of which , we hear of near two hundred thousand heathen , converted unto true christianity , within these few years ? in a word , whether the day is not at hand , when the kingdoms of the world , shall be the kingdoms of our lord , and of his christ ! whether we shall not very quickly see those , glorious things which are spoken of thee , o thou city of god! ii. the late revolutions among our selves , have also been attended with some excellent things , where of we may say , the finger of god is here ! indeed nothing in the world could more exactly imitate and resemble the late circumstances of our mother england than the revolutions here , in all the steps thereof ; and this , though we understood not one another . this was from the excellent operations of that god who turns a wheel in a wheel ! and what shall we now say ? the judgments of god have been upon us heretofore ; but this poor land has cry'd unto the lord , and the lord has heard and sav'd . and the enemies of new-england have still perished before the rebukes of that god who is our king , our lord , our lawgiver : it has been as dangerous to seek the hurt of this poor countrey , as ever it was to annoy the piccardines of old ; and they that have stretched out their long arms to make us miserable , have brought upon their own heads the vengeance of the temple . but we were grown a worldly , sensual , factious people ; and then our god fulfill'd unto us that word of his , i will punish you yet seven times for your iniquity . our charters were taken from us , and our land , strangers devoured in our presence . you have seen cause to declare , that there were deny'd unto us the common rights , which all english-men justly , reckon themselves born unto ; and that all that was dear unto us , was entirely given up to the arbitrary disposals of four or five men , that beyond all measure hated us , and made no stick to tell us , we were but slaves . you have seen cause to declare , that we were now given to understand , our lands were none of our own ; and that a storm of unjust violence was every day falling upon the more honest , and sober part of the countrey , while the wicked walked on every side , and the vilest men were exalted . our churches also began to feel the kindness of those , who had sworn by the living god , to ruine them ; and all debauchery was coming in among us like a mighty flood . all this while we were in a sea of fire , miserably scorched and scalded ; and yet it was mingled with ice ; there were great cakes of ice over our heads ; there was no getting out . that one person , who now hazarded his all to obtain us relief , by carrying our addresses for us , was made sensible of this . remember , o new-england , how often that cry then went up from thee to the lord , return we beseech thee , o god of hosts ! look down from heaven and visit this vine ; and now , behold , he is returned . our adversaries are what and where they are ; and we see so far our iudges as at the first , and our councellors at the beginning . and there are several excellent things that have been done for for us by our god , while he has been effecting of our deliverance . we have cause to praise the god of heaven , that in the tumult of our action , there was not the loss of a drop of blood , nor such plunder and outrage as would have been a disgrace to our profession . we have cause to praise him , that our soveraign has declared , he took very well what we had done for him , and for our selves in the revolution . we have cause to praise him , that we have been so comfortably carried through the difficulties of a whole summer , while we could not say that any law was of any force with us . every week erected a new ebenezer for us ! we have cause to praise him , for putting it into the heart of a person , well known unto you all , to take a voyage into england , just before the late overturnings there : on purpose to be in the way of those opportunities , which his faith was that he should have , to serve the churches of the lord jesus here ; by which means , ( as our friends there assure us ) it is that we have been preserved from being totally udome . we have cause to praise him , for giving a check to those indian blood-hounds , which have been worrying of us in the east ; who having destroy'd several plantations , met with no full stop , till they assaulted the first place where a gospel ministry was maintained ; but there they found such a bar in their carrier , that we now hear no more of them . and may i not say it ? we have cause to praise the glorious god , for some excellent things , which as yet we know not of . we gave imperfect , but ( with many ) probable accounts , of a deliverance from a french force , that the possession of this territory , would have been a valuable thing unto . but this is indubitable . if it had not been the lord , who was on our side , may new-england now say , they had swallowed us up quick : blessed be the lord , who hath not given us as a prey to their teeth . new-england , be humbly thankful to thy god , and exalt the god of thy fathers . god forbid there should be any murmurers among us all . a year or two ago , we would have been thankful for a small mo●ety of what we now enjoy : but if our praises are not yet enough animated , i pray then , let us make a comparison of our condition . compare our condition with that of them in h●ngary . the protestant churches there , have been made a desolation , and it would break an heart of stone to hear , what both pastors and people have endured . should you see one of the poor confessors come out of an hideous dungeon full of t●●ds , and snakes , and excremen●s ; with their very throats putrified , their teeth fallen out , and their eyes gone into their heads , and their flesh mangled in a thousand places , you could not forbear preaching a sermon on , thankfulness to god imagine your selves under the continual executions of the most witty divels , and all that shall but relieve you with a bit of bread , torn to pieces by the hand of an hangman , and you will see what has befallen the most venerable ministers of that kingdome , until the protestant religion has been almost extirpated there , and this after the oathes of their monarch to support it . compare our condition with that of them in germany . the french king has there made even the popish provinces themselves a stage of blood , and laid all in ashes for many leagues together . he has given the sun for his device upon many of his coines ; and by the fiery destructions which his bombs have made , he has given us cause to suspect whether he be not the s●n in the fourth vial , that has power to s●orch men with fire . imagine that you were put under the french contributions , and not only rob'd of all you have in the world , but also driven like so many cattle before their slaughterers . imagine your towns laid all in heaps , and your persons obnoxious to all manner of rapine and murders from the worst of h●rpyes : this is what thousands are now feeling of . compare our condition with that of them in france . except in the matter of our sabbaths , what are we better than the people of god in that rueful countrey ? but all the bloody butcheries and cruelties committed in the by-past ages , are meer trif●les in comparison of what that people have of late endured , and this after faith given often ●nough unto the contrary . after they ●ad gone thorough intolerable vexations ●n all those things that they had ●ny kindness for , they have been at last ●iven up into the claws of the merciless ●ragoons : and were all the divels of hell in●arnate , they could not invent more or worse ●ortures , than these dragons inflict upon ●ersons of all sorts , till they have compelled ●●em to abjure the truth of god ; and thus all ●he flocks of the lord jesus have been wor●ed and ruined there . imagine a swarm of lew'd souldiers , like locusts quartered 〈◊〉 your houses , and there binding of you , that they might abuse your nearest relations before your eyes ; imagine them hanging of you by the hair of your heads and then half choaking of you with smoke , or half roasting of you with fire ; imagine them pricking of you with knives and bod●kins , and with ten thousand lingring tortures , making you desire , while you may not enjoy , such a priviledge as death ; until at last you have been worried into an abjuration , which makes the wounds on your consciences no less than those on your bodies were before . to have done , compare our condition , with that of our english brethren , in woful ireland , especially the more southern counties of it . behold , their estates confiscate : the value of four millions was long since the account of the losses felt by only them who had fled into england . behold their persons confind ; having sharp skeins ready for their throats , with just fears day and nigh● of a new massacre . what would you think , if you were driven like dogs into the goals of galloway : if you were enjoy●ed to carry your own fathers heads upon poles in the head of a regiment , or if yo● lay at the mercy of a wild irish rabble ? behold these things , behold them with sympathy o new-england ; and be not ●canty in thy praises to him that has known thee above all the families of the earth . come , and sing unto the lord , for the excellent things which he has done . but yet let us not put him off with a song . 't is a thing very pleasing to god , that we have a day of thanksgiving to praise him in ; and if this day , he duely kept , i doubt not but good news will quickly put us upon the keeping of another . he that inhabits the praises ●f israel will keep house among us , if by leaving off our praises we turn him not out of doors . it was a remarkable thing that befel one of our neighbours , a while ago . by a shipwrack , he was cast upon a desolate island , where he was left many months alone . after many a day of prayer , for succour , he at last kept a day of praise , ●or the support which he had so long en●oy'd ; and within a few hours upon this , ●here came a vessel by that saved him . new-england has been , and yet is , in so many troubles , that some have questioned whether a day of thanksgiving would be season●ble ! o yes ! most highly seasonable ! keep it well , and it shall yet be said , also in new-england , things went well . but the principal thing in our thanksgiv●●g , yet remains , and that is , a thanks-doing let us all repent , and reform , and set up on the lively doing of the good thing which the lord our god requires . the apos●stle speaks pathetically , i beseech you , brethren , by the mercies of god. it is this , i conclude withal ; i beseech you brethren , by the mercies of god , that new england ma● be as a noble person sometimes call'd u● the best people in the world ; and that no sca●●dalous things may be done here , to offen● the god that has done excellent things for us . i beseech you by the mercies of god , that as we profess the protestant religion with the most exalted purity , so we may practise it , in such an exemplary manner , that , a● new-england man , may be a term of honour in the world . i beseech you by the mercies of god , that we may all sincerely intend th●●ame ends , which brought our predecessor● here , even to propagate the spiritual king●dom of our lord jesus christ. may all due pains be taken , that not only the englis● may every where have the knowledge o● god , but that the indians too , may shar● with us in it ; for an engagement whereunto god has given us to see , as that a ver● visible blast has attended the estates of the● who have grown rich by trading of drin● with them , so a visible blessing has acco●●panied them who have laboured in preach●●ng of truth to those poor pagans ; and since ●t this day , the most powerful nation of ●hem , namely , the mohawks , ask for the ●ospel , it cannot but be a piece of policy as ●ell as relig●on , in us to carry the gospel unto ●●em , while they cannot be reconciled unto 〈◊〉 superstitions of our french neighbours , ●●at have been tampering with them . o ●●at we might not forget the errand of our ●ore-fathers hither ! we shall then flourish ▪ ● spite of all that wish ill unto us ; thus ●ill salvation be nigh unto us , and glory shall well in our land. may our god sanctifie 〈◊〉 his dispensations to us ; particularly those 〈◊〉 the summer past , as well the terrible as 〈◊〉 merciful . 't is a metaphorical earth●●ake which has lately been among us , and ●ere was a literal one in some parts of the ●ountrey preceding of it . may these earth●●akes produce better effects on us than those lima in this our new-world america , 〈◊〉 upon the people there a little while ago . ●e are informed , that an horrible earth●●ake , after some warnings of it , shook that ●eat and lewd city ; till with incredible ●o●se and fury , it sunk a large part of it ●o the earth , and the sea came hideously ●●lling in upon it . while the miserable ●●●niards were under apprehensions of pe●●ing in speedy ruines , they that had been enemies one to another immediately made r●●conciliations ; they professed a deep repe●●tance of their former vices ; their fine o●●naments and other vanities , they burie● under ground ; and with consternation cr●●ed out , our oppression , our injustice , the ext●●vagancies of our cloathings and our houses , 〈◊〉 brought all this upon us ! we have newly be●● passing th●o ' a figurative earth-quake , whic● is not yet quite over with us . god forbi● we should be impaenitent after all ; and , sin● i would end , where i began , god forbi● that we should be unthankful for our prese●●vations . new-england is not used unto suc● follies as bonfires , nor do we think ringi●● of bells , but sin●●ng of psalms , to be a than●●●giving exercise . come then , sing unto 〈◊〉 lord ; sing the praises which he may 〈◊〉 claim unto . it was a no less wonder●●● than undoubted thing which happened france a few months ago , when , upon 〈◊〉 dissolution of the french congregations , a● a particular interdict upon the singing 〈◊〉 psalms thro' the kingdom , there were tho●●sands of persons , in hundreds of places , scores of times , that plainly heard 〈◊〉 singing of psalms after the manner of 〈◊〉 french assemblies with a most ravishi●● melody , by invisible singers in the air ; thing so notorious that the very psalms we often distinctly as well as audibly enough ●ung , to let the hearers know what psalms ●hey were ; such as the fifth , the forty se●ond , the hundred and thirty eighth particu●arly ; and even the parliament of pau made 〈◊〉 decree that men should not go abroad to ●ear this unaccountable singing under a for●eiture of two thousand crowns ▪ upon which ●he reflection of the incomparable iurieu is ▪ this is a reproach that the providence of god ●akes unto us ; because you have not dared , n●r ●een willing any more to sing his praises and ●ongs of thanksgiving . god has made mouths ●n the midst of the air ! but behold an happy presage , that god will not suffer your ●oices and your songs to dy , the angels have ●ezed on them . thus , give me leave to ●●y , that if we ●ill not sing unto the lord , there are others ●hat will ; and we that will not , never shall ! yea , our silence may provoke the very ●ocks and stones to loud shouts , in praising ●●e eternal god. o come , and sing unto the lord ; and ●ough we do not certainly know what changes yet may come upon us , nor how ●r the clouds may return after the rain ; let ●s nevertheless be found , singing to the lord. they that remember how many princes ●nd interests were concerned for the protestant religion threescore years ago , and how almost all of them afterwards disappeared ▪ cannot yet be without apprehensions in the midst of their thanksgivings . but , though we may not sing requ●ems to our selves , ye● we may sing praises to our god : and what ever fears may be upon us , i am now 〈◊〉 repeat that call ; awake , awake , o congr●●gation , awake , awake , and utter a song . 〈◊〉 was a memorable accident which happened near one of the lee-ward islands some year● ago . a ship with some pious people in it was by a violent storm driven between two hideous rocks ; where she lay on one side so that every moment they expected she would overset ; in this distress , in this despair , they agree to dy singing , and ther● they sat singing the hundred and forty sixth psalm . but behold , a dutch ship that had newly taken a spanish vessel , at that instant came by , and not only delivered them from the perils of their own ship , which immediately perished , but also bestowed an other vessel on them . methinks , this poor countrey has been , and yet is , much in the condition in which that serious people were well , but supose we should sink after al● the excellent things which have been done for us , ( and yet we can't forbear saying , i● the lord were pleased to kill us , would he have shewed us all these things ! ) let us however sink and sing both at once , and keep singing to him that has done excellent things , while we have any breath ; ( and when we have none , we shall do it better ! ) such a course it is , which gives the greatest likelihoods , that he will with a perfection of deliverance , arise and save us . finis . a passage in mr. flavels thanksgiving-sermon , preached febr. 14. 1688 shall we ingratefully overlook the beginnings of mercy , as small and incon●siderable things ? shall we say , all this i● nothing , because we have not yet all that we would have ? god forbid . when israe● was in egypt , then a little straw would have been esteemed as a great mercy ; but after●wards quails and manna were despised . brethren , three or four years ago , you would have accounted it a special mercy , to have enjoy'd an hour or two together in prayer or to have had a little spiritual bread handed to you , behind your enemies backs ; and is it nothing in your eyes this day , to behol● the worship of god at liberty ? yea , to see the success of the gospel , in bringing home of many souls to christ ? the fears of potery vanished ? the witnesses risen ; the tenth-part of the city fallen ; and such a prospect of far greater and more gloriou● things before your eyes ? o let not the consolations of the almighty seem small . a postscript . endeavouring the satisfaction of them that are inquisitive after the late stupendous extasies and prophesies in france . the words of god are true , in the notice which they have given us , that the works of god are great ; and certainly no age did ever afford instances of greater than those which are now the matters of discourse and wonder throughout the world. among the marvellous things which at this day strike the minds of men with a just astonishment , there are not many more considerable , than those of the late extasies in france . concerning which we have undoubted information ; that about the beginning of the year 1688 : a young shepardess in the province of dauphine , fell into unaccountable trances , wherein tho' the standers by , pull'd her , struck her , cut her and burnt her , yet it was impossible to awaken her . in this condition , her custome was to utter many divine things ; and though she could neither write nor read , nor could speak any language but that of her countrey , which has nothing of pure french in it , yet she now pray'd and preach'd at a most prodigious rate , and sang psalms after the manner of the french protestant congregations : and when auditors that could thereby be edified , were present , she expressed herself , not only in french of a dialect most exact and correct , but also having occasion to speak latin , in the refutation of the romish superstitions , she did it with a distinctness that fill'd all the hearers with admiration and though when she came out of her sleep , she remembred not what had befallen her ; yet she had her wits thereby made more sparkling and refined . those new french apostles , the dragoons , quickly did their utmost , for the suppression of this rare thing ; but behold the event ! it was not long before other persons fell into the like trances , with symptoms not unlike to those which had attended her ; and the number encreased unto several hundreds of these prophets , if i may call them so ? whereof even the kings own guards afforded one. and at length some that were awake were carried forth unto rapturous exercises with an eloquence and energy equal to that of those that were asleep . they are people of all ages and sexes ; but the greatest part of them are boyes and girles , from six or seven to five and twenty years of age ; and persons very old ; all of them the meaner sort of people : but of families exemplary for their good living ; the whole affair being indeed so prodigious , that the most obstinate saddu●cees in the kingdom confess it , a natural distemper directed by providence to procure the repentance of a sinful world. the ministry of these extraordinary people , does chiefly consist of two things . one part of it is , the admonition of those unhappy persons that have provoked god by many notorious miscarriages , but especially by apostasie under the late persecution . they deride the follies of the mass , with a surprizing ingenuity ; and in a vast assembly of perhaps two thousand people come together to hear these preachers , if there be any that have abjured the protestant religion , they will call them before them , and address them in such powerful terms , as usually make not not only the whole congregation shed floods of tears , but the apostates themselves to become penitents : and there comes not one away , who does not positively declare , that he had rather be torn to pieces with wild horses than ever go to mass again . no man is able to resist their words ! and they make the penitents now and then confess other particular sins , which they convince them of , though the transgressors had imagined these faults impossible to be discovered . a whole council assembled could not manage any matter with more authority than they do the conviction of those , who have gone to mass , that they may shun the severities of the french dragoons . it may not be unprofitable to recite a few of the sentences , which fell from the mouths of these extaticks . have a care ( said one of them ) that you come not hither out of curiosity . better it were for the wicked that hot coals of fire should pass through their mouths , than that they should mock at the word of god ; they had better swallow a serpent with all its poison . if the wicked ( said one of them ) had the same power over god , that they have over you , they would do the same to him that they do to you : but god will pronounce the sentence of malediction on them , and will say , go into eternal fire . brethren , ( said another of them ) pray hard ; and then though we should meet an army of enemies at the door , god will place a million of angels for your guard. brethren , ( said another of them ) we have alwayes apprehended more the threats of men than those of god , else what happened to us , would not have happened . one of them said , your riches have ruined you , and your prayers must relieve you . one of them said , i am afraid the first persecution will make you return to mass again ; but o suffer your selves rather to be first cut in p●e●es . alas ! iesus christ has poured out all his blood for us , and we can't endure the prick of a pin for him. to the apostates , they generally so conclude their warnings ; you have sinned against the father , you have sinned against the son , take heed of sinning against the holy ghost , for god will then pardon you no more . and when the children are told , they shall be hang'd , they are not at all afraid , but answer , that is but a little harm for a greater , good . but the other part of their ministry is , the prediction of things quickly to come to pass . they do indeed foretell many things of a more private concern ; they foretell a thousand things that must happen to themselves and their friends : and the issue confirms the prophesie . one of them being thrown into a dungeon , said , the man who sent her thither should within eight dayes fetch her out , and i● strangely was accomplished . but the things of a more publick concern , are chiefly those which they foretel . the gentlemen , who give us the history , tell us , that they judge it not yet convenient to publish a large part of the authentick and sufficient collections which they have made of these prophecies . however , they have given us a taste . in general , the subjects of this enthusiasm all agree in foretelling , a speedy deliverance to the church of god : and they declare , the late revolutions in england , to be the beginning of that deliverance . tho' all france was fill'd with a rumour , that the late k. iames had defeated the ( ●hen ) prince of orange , both by land and sea , these then said , the authors of these reports commit a great sin , for the prince of orange has chas'd , and shall chase the king out of england ; and that is the beginning of the deliverance of the church . they foretold a fresh assault of persecution in france , and it had a very dreadful fulfilment ; for after it ensued a terrible storm of outrage upon the relicks of prot●stantism in the desolate kingdom : in one article of which , there was a massacre , of about four hundred people ; but they foretold within how many days the persecution should b● over ; and they give hopes of a protestant king , very quickly to be seen in france . they proclaim , the divel is going to be shut up in the midst of hell ! they say , the accomplishment of the prophetical months and dayes is at hand ; but it must be accompanied with very terrible wars and plagues . the whole is a thing very unaccountable : and when i consider the fate of the famous german prophets , which made such a noise in the world : or , when i consider , that while the iews were under their infatuations about their false messiah , sabatai saevi , some hundreds of people fell into extasies ( as 't is reported ) wherein they prophesied , the speedy deliverance of the jews by that impostor , and little children that could not stammer a word , yet repeated and pronounced the name of this deceiver , with happy omens of him ; but consider on the other side , that not to regard the works of the lord , is a destroying evil ; i dare not make any reflections on it . i dare not say , what authority , or what original is to be assigned unto these inspirations ; but this i know , the comfort and counsil of the church is without such things now sufficiently provided for ; and our lord jesus having foretold the state of the church until he come again , hath so concluded his predictions , if any man shall add unto these things , god shall add plagues unto him. nevertheless , this also i shall , take for granted , that the great god intends hereby to awaken us unto a consideration of what is before us ; that is a proper use of miracles ; and when we are once awakened , there is provided for our entertainment a more sure word of prophecy : which o that our god may help us to give heed unto amen . the way to prosperity . a sermon preached to the honovrable convention of the governovr , council , and representatives of the massachuset-colony in new-england ; on may 23. 1689. by cotton mather . jer. 23.28 . he that hath my word , let him speak speak my word faithfully . boston . printed by r. pierce . for ioseph brunning , obadiah gill , and iames woode . mdcxc . a prophesy in the divine herbert's church-militant . religion stands on tip-toe in our land , ready to pass to the american strand . when height of malice and prodigious lusts , impudent sinning , witchcrafts and distrusts , ( the marks of future bane ) shall fill our cup unto the brim , and make our measure up ; — then shall religion to america flee ; they have their times of gospel , even as we . — yet as the church shall thither westward fly , so sin shall trace and dog her instantly . the preface , the occasion which first produced the following sermon , cannot be expressed in better terms , than those which were used by the worthy gentlemen that were the conservators of our peace , in their humble address to their majesties , bearing date , may 20 th 1689. wherein among other things they say , — your three several princely declarations , encouraging the english nation , to cast off the yoke of a tyrannical and arbitrary power , which at that time they were held under , have occurred unto the view and consideration of the people in this countrey , being themselves under alike ( if not worse ) evil and unhappy circumstances with their brethren in england ; first by being unrighteously deprived of their charter-government , & priviledges , without any hearing or tryal , and under utter impossibilities of having notice of any writt served upon them ; and then followed with the exercise of an illegal and arbitrary power over them , which had almost ruined a late flourishing countrey , and was become very grievous & intolerable ; besides the growing miseries , and daily fears of a total subversion , by enemies at home , and invasion by forreign sorce ; the people thereby excited , to imitate so noble and heroic an exemple , being strongly and unanimously spirited , to intend their own safeguard and defence , resolved to sieze upon and secure some of the principal persons concerned , and most active in the ill management of the illegal and arbitrary government , set over them by commission . accordingly upon the eighteenth day of april last past , arose as one man , siezed upon sr. e. ananos the late governour , and other of the evil instruments , and have secured them for what justice , order from your majesties shall direct . — thus that address . vpon the late revolutions thus described , ensued various debates about the further steps that were needful to be taken for the service of their majesties and this afflicted countrey ; which debates quickly issued in the return of our government , into the hands of our ancient magistrates ; who with the representatives or deputies of the several towns in the colony , made another address unto their majesties , bearing date , iune 6. 1689. in which address there were these words , — finding an absolute necessity of civil government , the people generally manifested their desires and importunity once and again , that the governour , deputy governour and assistants , chosen and sworn in may 1686. according to charter & court as then formed , would assume the government ; — — the said governour , deputy-governour , and assistents , then resident in the colony , did consent to accept the present care and government of this people , according to the rules of the charter , for the preservation of the peace and common safety , and the putting forth further acts of authority , upon emergencies : until by direction from england , there should be an orderly settlement ; which we hope will restore us to the full exercise thereof , as formerly ; notwithstanding we have , for some time , been most unrighteously , and injuriously deprived of it . that royal charter being the sole inducement and encouragement unto our fathers and predecessors , to come over into this wilderness , and to plant the same at their own cost and charge . in answer to this address , his majesty in a most gracious letter , bearing date the 12 th of august 1689. unto the government here , uses these expressions , whereas you give us to understand , that you have taken upon you the present care of the government , until you should receive our order therein , we do hereby authorize and empower you to continue in our name , your care in the administration thereof , and preservation of the peace , until we shall have taken such resolutions , and given such directions for the more orderly settlement of the said government , as shall most conduce to our service , and the security and satisfaction of our subjects within that our colony . it was in the time of our greatest heats and straits , and at a time appointed for a general assembly of this great colony , that the ensueing sermon was expected from me . through the grace of god , the sermon then was not altogether unacceptable to some who desired the publication of it . but i gave not my full consent unto their desire , until now , they had an opportunity ( with their renewed importunity ) to join it with another discourse which they have obtained from me ; and tho' the little differences which were among us , when the sermon was preached , are now s● well composed , yet i flatter my self with an opinion , that the things here insisted on , will not , should not be judg'd unseasonable . i confess it is a very bold thing , for one every way so mean as my self , to address the whole countrey in such a manner as here i do ; but , si crimen erit , crimen amoris erit ; and if the general dispositions of the year will not excuse a breach of order in me , i have but one thing more to offer by way of satisfaction for it ▪ there was once a people in the world , with whom it was a custome , that when men would conciliate the favour of the ruler , they were to present his own son before him , as a sight which would speak more than any advocate . instead thereof , that i may not want the favour of my countrey , how blameable soever they may count my freedome with them , i shall only present them with my own father ; whose cheerful encounter with an hazardous voyage unto a strange land , and with innumerable difficulties and temptations there , for no other cause , than that he might speak for them , has at least merited a pardon for mee , with whom he has for near two years now left both his church and family , if i have transgressed by taking a liberty of speaking to them at the same time , the things which may promote our enjoyment of the divine presence with us . now , may salvation be nigh unto us , and glory dwell in our land ! cotton mather . the way to prosperity it is the word of the eternal god in ii. chron. xv. 2. hear ye me , asa , and all judah , and benjamin : the lord is with you while you are with him. it is a remarkable occasion which has brought these words to be the subject of our present meditations ; but it was much more a remarkable occasion which these words were first uttered upon . we find them in the sacred book of chronicles , which chronicles are not the civil records , in other parts of the bible refer'd unto ; but an inspired history of things that concerned the line of christ and the church of god for five hundred more than three thousand years . it seems as an epitome of the whole , ( for so t is in ierom's language ) to be written as late as the last of all the books in the old testament ; and the hebrew bibles give it a place accordingly . the greeks choose to entitle it , the book of things ( else where ) passed by ; because , as lyra notes , according to the rule of our saviour , it gathers fragments that nothing may be lost ; and if there were nothing else but the story which affords our text unto us , to justifie that appellation , it were enough : 't is a story passed by in the book of kings ; but worthy to be had in everlasting remembrance . the ready pen of ezra ( for him we conjecture to be the scribe of the holy spirit here , notwithstanding those few clauses which may be judged to be added by another hand after his decease , i say the pen of ezra ) is here informing us , that the people of god had newly been invaded by a vast army of cushites ; but we are yet at a loss who these cushites were ? far more scholars in the world , than there were souldiers in that army have hitherto been content with our translation , which renders them ethiopians here . but that learned french-man bochaert , by whose happy industry , more than any man's , the treasures in the bowels of the scriptures have been delv'd into , has with irrefragable demonstration prov'd , that no● ethiopians but arabians are the cushites men●tioned in the oracles of god. these ara●bians , tho they have not been called sarace● ( as has been thought ) from their word sa●rak , that signifies , to steal ; yet for their f●●racious inclinations , they well deserved suc● an etymology ; they were a wild sort 〈◊〉 men , that liv'd much upon the rapin an● ruin of their neighbours ; and particularly a million of them now designed ierusalem fo● a prey . the blessed god gave his peo●ple a notable victory over these invaders ▪ and they were now returning from gerar ( 〈◊〉 place between thirty and forty miles off ) un●to ierusalem . the holy spirit of god exci●ted and inclined a prophet whose name wa● azariah , to entertain them with a faithful & solid sermon hereupon ; and in my te● you have the sum and substance of it . we may observe , first , the praeface of it ; and that i● very awful and earnest : hear ye me asa , an● all judah , and benjamin . as he was proba●bly none of the greatest , so t is like he wa● none of the oldest men ; for it seems by th● eighth verse , that his father was yet alive , 〈◊〉 present at this time . yet being to speak 〈◊〉 the name of the great and eternal god , 〈◊〉 expects , he demands the attention of 〈◊〉 whole army to him . secondly , the design of it ; and that is , to ●ecclare both the rise and vse of their late prosperity . the lord is with you , while you ●ou are with him ; or as the vulgar latin has ●t , inasmuch as you have been with him . what ●ollows , is but an explication , and ampli●ication of this . he saw they were taken up with various businesses and contrivances ; they had their enemies under hatches , and ●heir minds were full of thoughts and cares , what to do next ? but he calls them off to acknowledge the presence of god , as the cause of ●heir coming off so well in their late action , and above all things to obtain & secure the presence of god , that they might come off as well , in in their future enterprises . i am therefore to call for your attention ●nto this faithful saying . doct. that the god of heaven will be with a people while they are with him. 't is by the ensuing propositions , that the explication of this truth shall be endeavoured . proposition . i. it is the interest , and should be the desire , of every people to have the god of heaven with them . but we are to enquire , what is implied in that presence of god , which we are to be solicitous about ? for answer to this ; there is a threefol● presence of god , mentioned in the scriptur● of truth . first , god is naturally present with all creatures . he is an immense being , and no creature can be without him . the apostle that argued in the court at athens , in act , 1● 27. god is not far from every one of us . no● he is near us all , he is with us all . and pai● could have had the gentiles themselves confessing it ; for besides what their seneca di● own , one of their own poets had said , iovis omnia plena . it is the speech of our god , in ier. 23.24 . do not i fill heaven and earth , saith the lord ? yea , that he do's . the jews call god by the name of makom , or of place , because all things are in him ; this is his name in the book of esther , if i mistake it not . whether we may count it proper and physical to speak of an imaginary , infinite space , beyond the utmost selvige of the world , replenished with our god alone ; yet we are sure that the heaven of heavens gives no limits unto his being ; and the ancients were not mistaken when they said , deus ipse sibi , et mundus et locus et omnia . we cannot so well say , that god is in the world as we may say , the whole world is in god ; & we may say with the psalmist , in psal. 139.7 . whither shall i flee from thy presence ? secondly , god is gloriously present with the inhabitants of the third heaven . the heaven of heavens hath in it most intimate and marvellous manifestations of god. it is the place , of which we may say , as t is said of that state , in rev. 21.23 . the glory of god doth lighten it . there the blessed ones have god with them , so that they alwayes behold his face ; and they are satisfied with his likeness for ever . when we come to heaven , then as in 1. thes. 4.17 . we shall ever be with the lord. so the lord will be with us for ever . heaven is the throne of the most high ; he is there as a prince in his throne ; the great king is in a manner very ineffable residing there . to be there , is called in 2. cor. 5.4 . a being present with the lord. hence unto the heaven , and not unto a bible , are we directed to make our corporal applications in our prayers , or our oathes before the lord. but thirdly , god is graciously present with his people , by being favourable unto them . and this gracious presence of god is that which a people ought to be concerned for . it lies in the engagement of divine providence for the welfare of such a people . god is with us when god is for us . to particularize , first , god is with a people by directing of them . when israel was to pass thro' the wilderness , they had that encouragement in exod. 22.15 . the presence of god going with them . what was that ? why , they had a cloudy fiery pillar miraculously leading o● them every step of the way ; there was ● wonderful pillar which was a cloud by day and a fire by night ; the lower part of which rested on the tabernacle , while the vppo● part was to be seen by the whole congregation : the motions of this being managed by the ministry of angels , now god was with them , and he led them forth by the right way . a people are often brought into a wilderness of difficulties and emergencies : but if god be with them , he guides them to a good issue of them all . the presence of god appears in his directing and inclining of a people to such actions , as may be for his honour and their safety , and such methods , a● may extricate them out of all distresses . when god is with a people , he shapes their counsels for them , and he disposes them to the things that should be done . he supplie● them with apprehensions beyond the reach and verge of their own wisdome , and he layes before them invitations , and provocations , which as it were push them into the way wherein they should go . when the jews were ●pon a 〈◊〉 assumption of the desireable thing which the babylonians had deprived 'em of , they took a right way to dissappoint all that were desirous to interrupt them in it . we find in neh. 4.13 . that while those exercises continued , they waited in a posture agreeable thereunto ; and when the danger was over , then they returned every one to his work . how came this to pass ? 't was because god was with them . secondly , god is with a people , by protecting of them . 't was the promise of god unto his people , in isa. 43.2 . when thou passest thro' the waters , i will be with thee , and thro' the rivers , they shall not overflow thee . on which text , blessed bilney after his condemnation so sweetly paraphrased , that his friends caused the whole sentence to be fairly written on their tables . a people may be ready to be swallow'd up , by a stormy , gaping ocean of troubles , but if god be with them , they shall escape clear of all . the presence of god is a defence , a refuge to the people that are partakers of it . it was said unto david in 2. sam. 7.9 . i was with thee , and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight . when god is with a people , he distracts and confounds their enemies , and he troubles those who trouble them . a people who have god with them , are too strong for all the malice and power of their enemies ; no adversary , no desolation , shall make such a people miserable ; they are the iacob , unto whom in gen. 28.15 . behold , i am with thee , and i will keep thee , saith the lord. thirdly , god is with a people by his assisting and succeeding of them . when ioshua had a vast undertaking in hand , it was said unto him in cap. 1.9 . be of good courage , for the lord thy god is with thee , whither soever thou goest . q. d. god will assist thee , and succeed thee , in thy undertakings . the presence of god will carry a people comfortably through all that they take in hand . if they have canaanites to subdue ; if they have enjoyments to obtain or preserve , the presence of god will prosper them in doing all . it was said unto solomon , in 1. chron. 22.11 . my son , the lord be with thee , and prosper thou , and build the house of the lord thy god. thus , if the lord be with a people , they shall prosper in all their affairs ; in every expedition , they shall come off with satisfaction ; and they shall not miscarry in any of their applications . this is the presence of the lord. proposition . ii. the presence of god with a people in hi● outward providence , has a diverse foundation and continuance from his presence with h●● people , in the covenant of grace . as t is 〈◊〉 observed by the great owen , in a discourse unto the parliament , these two are to be carefully distinguished . we must not reflect on the stability of the new-covenant , for what variety and soveraignty we may see in providential dispensations , toward this and that people in the world . this matter seems determined by david , in 2. sam. 23.5 . tho' my house be not so with god , yet he has made with me an everlasting covenant , ordered in all things and sure . david had promises for the prosperity of his house ; he had also the sure mercies of the covenant made over to him in the promises of god. these promises had now a different establishment ; the sure mercies of the covenant , were unto him more absolute and immutable ; but the prosperity of his house , we find under another law , and subject unto a dreadful alteration . to bring these things into the case before us . god has in the covenant of grace , promised , that he will be with his people . this we read in heb. 13.5 . he hath said , i will never leave thee nor forsake thee . the alsufficient god , who is hee that answers our necessities , let them be what they will ; the vnchangeable god , who is he still , whatever he was to the saints of old ; this god hath said [ and how much better is this au●os ●ireken than the best ipse dixit in the world ! he hath said it , and this ] with multipli● negatives , in the original , heaped one upo● another , i will not , i will not leave thee , i wi●● not , i will not , i will not 〈◊〉 sake thee . wel● but god is not with a people in his outward pro●vidence just after the manner there in observed ▪ this two-fold presence of god ; first , it has a diverse foundation . whe● we look on the covenant of grace , there t●● sins of one are expiated by the sufferings o● another ; and so , god comes to be with hi● people , for whom the a●onement is thus procured . thus t is said in 2. cor. 5.25 christ was made sin [ or a sin-offering ] for us , tha● we might become the righ●eousness of god i● him. now come to outward providence , an● there you see other measures taken . her god is with a people , according to thos● terms , in ezek. 18.20 . the soul that sinnet● it shall dye ; one shall not bear the iniquity 〈…〉 . again , it hath a diverse continuance when we look on the covenant of grace , then god hath bound himself to be with his people for ever ; yea , to see that they shall therefore for ever be with him. he there saies 〈◊〉 in jer. 32.40 . i will not turn away from them 〈◊〉 do them good , but i will put my fear in th● hearts , that they shall not depart from m● now come to outward providence , and the● you see t is otherwise . god is with a people for a while ; and upon their misbehaviours and provocations , he changes the tenour of his dispensations to them . t is with them , as it was with that family , in 1. sam. 2.30 . i said indeed , that thy house should walk before me forever ; but now the lord saies , that be far from me . the sense of these things will prepare your thoughts for one conclusion more , which is , proposition . iii. a people must be with god , or god will not be with them . and here also , to prevent mistakes , let that one text be alwaies carried in our minds ; neh. 9.18 . being merciful , thou for sookest them not ; there is mercy in the whole of this matter . let it be noted , that tho' this condition seems to be imposed upon us ; yet it is grace , pure grace , rich grace that helps us , when we are helped unto the performance of it . when a people have so been with god , as that he has been with them , they are to shout , grace , grace ! concerning all . it is also to be noted , that this benefit dos not depend upon that condition , as an effect upon the real and proper cause of it . when a people has been with god , this does not merit , and so procure that god should be with them ; but that is barely the antecedent unto which , this is the consequent having praemsed this i must now affirm , god is with you , while you are with him. we need only reflect on the people of israel , for an instance of it . that whole history , which almost fills the bible , proclames nothing more than this ; it loudly declares . that while a people are with god , god will be with them ; but that he will be very terrible in his providential dispensations towards such a people as do for sake him. but , what is it for a people to be with god ? in short , our being with god , implies the whole of our obedience to him. our duty to god must be attended ▪ that we may have the presence of god. the whloe of this duty is comprised in that expression of our being with the lord. particularly the hebrew particle [ gnim ] in our text , admits of three significations ; it signifies , with , and for , & like , [ which last signification i make the more free withal , because a little philology will acquaint us with many exemples of it : for instance , when david saith in psal. 120 , 5. i dwell in ( gnim hebr. ) the tents of kedar ; a very great interpreter translates it so , i dwell as the tents of kedar . i. e. like the inhabitants of the stony sun-burnt arabia ; whom indeed i don't remember david ever was among . ] accordingly , a people have three things incumbent on them , if they would enjoy the presence of god. first , a people should be with god , by communion [ with ] him. this t is to be with him ; there are certain meanes of communion between god and us ; and these we must be continually approaching to him in . we are with god , while we are at prayer before him ; hence in our context here , it immediately follows , if you seek the lord , he will be found of you . while we do seek him , we are with him. the psalmist was a man much in prayer , and therefore he could say as in psal. 73.23 . i am continually with thee . a people much in prayer may say the same , we are continually with the lord. a people that will pray upon all occasions , a people that will pray over all businesses , a peo that will retire into the mount for prayer ( and fasting too ) at every turn ; that people is with the lord. and the whole worship of god must be , diligently , graciously , faithfully frequented by a people that would be with him. we are with god , when we are at his house . a people should support & esteem , and use all the ordinances of god among them . the church of god hath his very special presence in it ; the name of the church is that in ezek. 48.35 . iehovah shammah , the lord is there . we should all be there too , and there give those encouragements which are due to the institutions of god ; so shall we be with the lord. secondly , a people should be with god by activity [ for ] him. to be for god is to be with god. it was once the summons given in exod. 32.26 . who is on the lords side ? and all the sons of levi gathered themselves ; they were with god in doing so . t is a summons given to the world in every generation , who is on the lords side ? they that obey the summons are with the lord. a people full of contrivances for the interest of god , are with him. a people should set themselves to advance the glory of god ; they should own his truths , and his wayes ; and endeavour to draw all about them into the acknowledgement of the same . a people should propound the glory of god as their cheef end and the main scope of all that they do ; and they should think much of no cost , no pains , nor ( tho , as a martyr once expressed himself , tho' every hair on their heads were a life ) should a thousand lives be dear unto them , in the promoting of it . then are they with the lord ; they are so , when god can say of them , as in isa. 43.10 . ye are my witnesses , saith the lord , and my servant . thirdly , a people should be with god , by behaviour [ like ] him. to be like god is to be with god. they that are with him , do not walk contrary to him. god and we should be one. a people should have the same designs , the same desires , which the written edicts of heaven declare to be in the blessed god ; and not only so , but the same vertues too . is god h●ly ? thus a people should not bear with them that are evil . is god righteous ? thus a people should abhor all injustice and oppression . is god merciful ? thus a people should be disposed unto all fair acts of pitty and kindness . then they will be with the lord ; and , o that this people were so with him ! this is the use to be now made of what has been delivered . let us all now , be with god , that god may be with us . i suppose , whatever else we differ in , we generally concur in that wish , 1. king. 8.27 . the lord our god be with us , as he was with our fathers , let him not leave us nor forsake us . o that we might all as much concur in an endeavourous resolution , to be with god , as our fathers were with him ; not to leave him , nor forsake him . there is as much of new-england in this great congregation as can well be reach'd by the voice of one address ; t is indeed , the best part of new-england , that is , at least represented in this assembly . as the great council at ierusalem satt near the temple , thus the whole convention of the massachusets , is here come into the house of god this day : wherefore i take the boldness to say , hear ye me asa , and all judah , and benjamin . the ch●ef sinner and least preacher among all your sons , now takes a liberty to mind you , that god will be with you while you are with him. now that we may be all of us inspired with a zeal for this great thing this day , let us consider , first , how desirable , how necessary a thing it is , that we should have god with us . truly , this is the vnum necessarium of new-england ! nothing is more desireable , for us , than the presence of our god. the jews have a fable of their manna , that whatever any man had a mind to tast , he presently found in the manna a savour & a relish of it . it is very true of this blessed presence ; all manner of blessings are enwrapped in it . there is a multitude of blessings which we are desireous of ; but they are all contained in this comprehensive thing : it will give every honest man , all that he wants . this will extricate us out of all our labyrinths ; this will set all things to rights among us ; this will wonderfully carry on all the salvations which have been begun for us , by the god of our salvations . if christ , if god be aboard , our little vessel will not sink in the gaping , roaring , formidable waves now tossing of it . well did the apostle say , in rom. 8.31 . if god be for us , who can be against us ? thus , if god be with us , we have all for us . one god will weigh down more than ten worlds . if we have the presence of that god , who made and moves the universe by a word ; if we have the presence of that god , who can command and create our deliverances , o most happy we ! we may then join in such triumphant acclamations as that in psal. 118.6 . the lord is on my side , i will not fear ; what can man do unto me ? we may then defie , even the gates of hell it self , for , cur metuat hominem homo in sinu dei positus ? and tho' abroad at this day , the earth is removing , and the waters roar , and are troubled , and the mountains are shaking , splitting , tumbling , with the swelling thereof ; tho' the great and the terrible god be at this day , coming out of his place , to make all europe a stage of blood and fire , and make the nations everywhere drink deep of the cup that shall make them giddy with all manner of confusion & astonishment ; yet we shall be helped right early , for god is in the midst of us . add to this ; nothing is more necessary for us , than the presence of god. we are undone , thrice , and four times vndone , if we have it not . methinks i hear the almighty god with a voice more awful than that of the loudest thunder , saying over us , as in hos. 9.12 . wo to them when i depart from them . and wo to us indeed ; we are in a most woful estate , if it come to that ! how can we endure the mention of it , without our most importunate deprecations , o our god , leave us not ! we can have a prospect of nothing but horrible disorders , agonies and vexations , if we lose the presence of our lord : we ly open to no less than a fearful dissipation , and more than all our late oppressors would rejoice to see brought upon us . we have lately been complaining of burdens , that were grievous to us ; but i may warn you of our danger to feel one burden more , which will infinitely exceed them all ; t is that in jer. 23.33 . what burden ? i will even forsake you , saith the lord. behold a burden that will sink us into a bottomless abiss of calamities ! the presence of god , this is no less than the very soul of new-england ; we are dead and gone , if that withdraw . when israel was nimbly enough possessing themselves of the promised land , which god had given them such a charter for , they perished in the attempt ; for in deut , 1.42 . the lord said , go not up , for i am not among you . alas , if we don 't in the first place look to this , that god be among us , we cannot avoid all manner of dissappointments , desolations . let us consider , secondly : what uncomfortable symptomes we have had of god's not being with us . it seems as if god had fulfilled that sad word on this poor land , in deut. 31.17 . i will forsake them , and many evils shall befal them , so that they will say in that day , are not these evils come upon us , because god is not among us ? there is a vast number of calamities , which have given us lamentable cause to fear , that god has forsaken us . why have we suffered such a blast , both on our trade , and on our corn , that the husband-man complaines , i looked for much , and lo , it came to little ! and the mariner complains , i went out full , & came home empty ! t is because our god is not among us . why have we had fire after fire , laying our treasures in ashes ? what means the hear of this anger , that boston , the most noble , and vital bowel of the territory , hath with a twice repeted conflagration suffered such a loss of that which in the body politic answers to blood in the body natural ? t is because our god is not among us . why have we had war after war , made upon us by a foolish nation ? why have the worst of the heathen had renewed advantages to disturb our peace ? and why have so many of our brethren and neighbours been made a prey to the most savage murderers in the world ? it is because our god is not among us . give me leave to say , as in judg. 6.12 . if the lord be with us , why then is all this befallen us ? but we may find humiliation enough to convince us of this deplorable thing , from what we have endured upon the loss of our government . she of old said unto our lord jesus , in i-h. 11.21 . lord , if thou hadst been here , my brother had not dyed . so , if the lord had been here , t is possible we had not died. if the lord had been with us , would he have made our wall so feeble , that ( as they said of ierusalem ) the going up of a poor fox upon it , should break it down ? if the lord had been with us , had all the wild creatures that passed by this vineyard , found such opportunities to be plucking at it ? no , our god would have kept us , as a vineyard of red wine ; and lest any should have hurt us , he , ( the lord ) would have kept it , night and day . if the lord had been with us , had you ever thought you had seen cause to declare , as you have lately & justly done , that a company of abject strangers had made a meer booty of us ? had had we ever felt the sore grievances of an illegal & arbitrary government ? no ; the god of heaven was not with that oppress'd people , to whom he said in isa. 1.7 . your countrey is desolate ; your land , strangers devour it . what shall i say ? it was an appeal made in ioel , 1.2 . hear this , ye old men , ; hath this been in your dayes ? even so , i may say to the old men within the hearing of it ; my fathers , you remember how we were , when god was with us ; pray , was it so in your dayes , as it has been in ours ? were you visited with plague after plague , in a long series of heavy judgements , as we your poor children are ? surely , they will tell us ; god is not with us , as he was with them . in all these matters , our case may at least have some correspondence with that in luc. 23.28 . he made as though he would have gone ; but they constrained him , saying , abide with us ! let us consider thirdly ; if we are not with god , we shall be guilty of an apostasie , and that under very shameful , very direful aggravations too . we shall be apostates , and o let us not be so , lest our god say , my soul can have no pleasure in them . but if we are so , we shall be of all apostates the most inexcusable let us consider , what fathers we have had ; they were with god. i may say of 'em as in hos . 9.8 . they were with my god : & they are gone to be so forever , what an unaccountable thing will it be for us , to have that character , which we have been so much cautioned against , there arose another generation which knew not the lord ? what ? shall the grandchildren of moses turn idolaters ? and shall the children of samuel become the children of belial ? shall we forget the hope of our fathers , or forsake our fathers friend ? the very graves of those blessed men , every post , every stone upon their graves , is a witness against us , if we do . with dismal accents , methinks , their very ghosts , will groan unto us , alas , is our posterity come to this ! nay , abraham would be ignorant of us , and israel would not acknowledge us , if we should be so degenerate as to lose the presence of the lord. let us also consider , what warnings we have had . it may be said unto us , as in jer. 25.4 . the lord hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets . this countrey has been blessed with a most faithful ministry , by which , i suppose , every assembly in this territory , has been called upon , to be with god , and to keep with him. especially the sermons which our elections have put the embassadours of god upon preaching and printing of ; these have been so many loud warnings unto us , that we leave him not . in them we have been faithfully warned , that our true interest is not to lye unto god. we have been warned , that the latter end of our misbehaviours will be destruction from the lord. we have been warned , that we must repent and do our first works , or have the candlestick of the lord iesus removed from us . in a word , we have been warned from heaven , that if we forsake our god , he will cast us off for ever . o miserable we , if we do it after all . these considerations , will not have their due force , unless they expire in a threefold request , which i must now lay before you ; and i may justly assert concerning the things contained therein , they are not vain things , they are our life . wherefore , hear ye me , asa , and all judah , & benjamin ; hear ye these things , all ye people of the massachusetts ! first , let us return to the lord. we must come to him , if we would be with him. we have marvellously backslide● from our god , but he calls after us , return ye backsliding children , and i will heal your backslidings . o that we may all as one man reply what is in jer. 3.22 . behold , we come unto thee , for thou art the lord our god. if we ask that question , in mal. 2.7 . wherein shall we return ? methinks , t' were an harder quaestion , wherin should we not ? but , behold , we have had a great voice out of the temple in answer thereunto . we have had the elders and messengers of our churches , convend in a synod , solemnly informing of us , wherein we shall return . god forbid the advice of that synod , should only serve to convict us and condemn us , in the day when he shall take vengeance on us for our contemning of it . that were dreadful indeed ! but in compliance with it , let every man seriously now enquire of himself , what have i done ? mark what i say , that man who does not suspect himself , of having a share in the sins which have driven away from us the presence of our god ; that man , i may safely affirm it , is one of the principal troublers of this israel ; i do without any scruple say it , thou art the man. let us all then examine our selves , and set upon the reforming of our own hearts and lives , and the renewing of our covenants with the lord. indeed , both the objects in which , and the authors from whom we have endured our calamities , those are enough to indigitate what sins they are that have exposed us thereunto . let me in two or three instances use a plain dealing with you , agreeable to my station here this day . what have been the objects in which we have been afflicted ? our fruits have been blasted ; & were they not abused in the excesses of sensuality ? our lands have been threat'ned ; and were not they the idols , for the sake of which we have offended god , and almost renounced all that was holy , and iust and good ? the most happy and easy government in the world , was changed with us , into what has by the most impartial men been confessed to have become intolerable ; why , did not men despise the best of governments , and procure other things to be set over them , because they endeavoured to make loggs of what they before enjoyed ? to pass on , were we not in the late unreasonable extortions of the law , invited to consider , whether our needless multiplications of litigious contentious law-suits formerly amongst us , were not a scandal thus chastised ? were we not in the late unsufferable injuries , abuses , and exactions of them , that under the pretence of the excise carried on very outragious villanies , put upon considering , whether the multitude or quality of drinking-houses , in the midst of 〈◊〉 , had not once been a stumbling-block of our ●●iquity ! again , what have been the authors from whom we have been afflicted ? our molestations have risen very much from indian hands . and alas , have we not very much injured the indians ? i do not mean , by taking from them their land ; for it was hardly possible they should be more fairly dealt withal than they have been in that particular ; but by teaching of them , our vice. we that should have learn'd them to pray , have learn'd them to sin. endeavors for their conversion have by many people been blown upon ; but there have been wicked english , who have taught them to drink , yea , and to curse , and swear ; things which they knew not the meaning of , till they came to school unto such white pagans as some that wear the christian livery among our selves . and have not we also followed the indians ? the indians are infamous , especially for three scandalous qualities : they are lazy drones , and love idleness exceedingly ! they are also most impudent lyars , and will invent reports and stories at a strange and monstrous rate ; and they are out of measure indulgent unto their children , there is no family-government among them . but , o how much do our people indianize in every one of those abominable things ! we must repent of these our miscarriages , or else our god will take up that resolution concerning us , i will even forsake them , saith the lord. secondly , let not sin be with us , and god will be so . t is the purpose of our god , in josh. 7.12 . i will not be with you except ye destroy the accursed thing , from among you , let us then destroy that accursed thing . especially , let us take heed of the sins , which at this time , we have a peculiar disposition to . it was complain'd in hos. 7.1 . when i would have healed israel , the iniquity of ephraim was discovered . it has bin thus , but god will not be with us , if it still be thus among our selves . our good god , the lord our healer , is now healing of us : o let us not now be impatient patients , lest that our blessed physitian deal hardly and roughly with us . impatiens aegrotus crudelem facit medicum . let us now no more discover revengefulness against them that have deserved ill of us . let the law , and not the sword measure out their due unto them . no more discover an unthankfulness unto them that have deserved well of us . requite them not with censure and haired for their unwearied pains to preserve our peace . no more discover a contempt of the ministers , who set themselves faithfully to declare the whole counsil of god , and to lift up their voice like a trumpet in shewing us our sins . they are all agreed ( i hope ) as one man to live and dye studying of your well-fare ; but if they are unjustly ill-treated with you , the great god , whose messengers they are , will take notice of it , and say , ye have despised me ! and o let us no more discover such a spirit of lying as we have made our selves worthy to be reproved for . we find mention of an evil spirit , that said in 1. king. 22.22 . i will go forth , and i will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all the prophets . doubt-the-same devil has been suing for a license to go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of near all the people here : i would to god , this devil were in a shorter chain ! i beseech you let not this land have that character , a countrey full of lies . but of all our errors , there is none of such dangerous and threatning consequence as the contention which we are too prone to break forth into . we are too much a contentious , and that will soon render us a wretched and a ruin'd people . a divided and quarrelsome people , do even say to the almighty , depart from us ; for he is the god of peace . but o , what is our meaning then , to make a full submission & entire resignation of our selues to the tyranny of our own passions , as we have too much done , while we have been debating about the measures of another submission and resignation in our various revolutions ! i have read of a people with whom it was a law , that in a fray , where swords were drawn , if a child did but cry peace , they must end the quarrel , or else he dyed that strook the first blow after peace was named . he that considers the feavourish paroxysins which this land is now raging in , through meer misunderstandings about the means leading to the end wherein we are generally agreed , and how ready we are to treat one another with fiery animosities , had need cry , peace , peace ! with a very speedy importunity . for my own part , i confess my self but a child , and among the meanest , the smallest of your children too ; but yet i am old enough to cry peace ! and in the name of god i do it . peace ! my dear countrey-men ; let there be peace in all our studies , peace in all our actions , and peace notwithstanding all our differences . we cannot avoid having our different sentiments ; but peace ! i say ; o let not our dissents put us upon hatred and outrage , and every evil work . it has not a little surprised mee to read in a greek author , who wrote fifteen hundred years ago ; that in the times long praeceding his , there was a tradition among them , that europe , and asia , and africa , were islands , encompassed by the ocean , without and beyond which was another as big as they : in which other world , were mighty and long-liv'd people , inhabiting of great cities ; the two greatest whereof were called , one of them , the fighting city ; the other of them , the godly city . behold very ancient footsteps of the knowledge which the old world had of our america , some thousands of years ago . but i pray , which of them american cities , must new-england become incorporate into ? truly , if we are a fighting , or a disagreeing people , we shall not be a pious one . we have hitherto , professed our selves , a countrey of puritans ; i beseech you then let us have the wisdom to be first pure , then peaceable . every man should count himselfe liable to follies , & mistakes , & misprisions not a few . are you so , or are you not ? if you are not , what do you here in this lower world , where you can find no more of your own attainments ? if you are so , then be patient and peaceable towards those who see not with your eyes ! let us all condescend one unto another ; and let no man be in a foaming rage , if every sheaf do not bow to hi● . there is one ingenious way to unite this people , if it were so heeded as it ought to be . i remember , an inquisitive person of old , that he might know which was the best sect among all the philosophers , he asked one and another , and every one still preferr'd the sect which he was of himself : but he then asked them , successively , which do you reckon the next best ? and they all agreed , that next to their own , plato 's was the best : upon which , he chose that , as indeed the best of all . thus , we all have our several schemes of things , and every man counts his own to be the best ; but i would say to every man , suppose your scheme laid aside , what would you count the next best ? doubtless we should be of one mind as to that : and if we could act by the common measures of christianity , we should soon be united in it . o that we could receive the word of the lord jesus , in 2. cor. 13.11 . brethren , live in peace , and the the god of love and peace shall be with you . thirdly . let every man do his part , and his best in this matter , that god may be with us . behold , a work provided for all sorts of men . pardon me , that i first offer it unto you , that are or may be our superiours . it was said in hos. 11.12 . iudah ruleth with god. when rulers are with god , o happy government ! unto you , much honoured , i would humbly address this petition , that your first work may be to think on some considerable expedient , by which the presence of god may be secured unto us . a little consultation may soon produce , what all new-england may bless you for . yea , t is very much in your power to do what may have a tendency to perpetuate the presence of god unto the succeeding generations . i cannot forbear uttering the wish of the great chytraeus in this honourable audience , vt inam potentes rerum domini majorem ecclesiae et scholarum curam susciperent ! may a godly and a learned ministry be every where encouraged : and no plantations allowed to live without a good minister in them . may the colledge be maintained , and that river the wholsome streams whereof have made glad the city of god , and blest us with a priviledge above the other out-goings of our nation , be kept running , with issues beyond those from the seminaries of canada or mexico ; may schools be countenanced , and all good wayes to nourish them and support them in every town , be put in execution ; you shall then probably leave the presence of god , as a blessed legacy with such as may come after you . i know not whether we do , or can at this day , labour under an iller symtom , than the too general want of education in the rising generation ; which , if not prevented , will gradually , but speedily , dispose us , to that sort of criolian degeneracy , observed to deprave the children of the most noble and worthy europaeans , when transplanted into america . the youth of this countrey , are very sharp , and early ripe in their capacities , above most in the world ; and were the benefits of a religious and ingenuous education bestowed upon them , they would soon prove an admirable people ; and as we know that england afforded the first discoverers of america in these latter ages , whatever the spaniards may pretend unto the contrary ; for it may be proved that both britains and saxons , did inhabit here , at least three or four hundred years before columbus was born into the world , which the annals themselves of those times do plainly enough declare ; so our little new-england may soon produce them that shall be commanders of the greatest glories that america can pretend unto . but if our youth be permitted to run wild in our woods , we shall soon be forsaken by that god , whom our fathers followed hither , when it was a land not sown ; and christianity , which like the sun , hath moved still westward , unto these goings down of the sun , will return to the old world again , leaving here , not a new-ierusalem , as doctor twiss hoped , but a gog and magog , as master mede feared ; for the last of the latter dayes . now may the god of heaven , bless the wisdome and goodness of your endeavours , for the continuance of his presence , with those that may rise up in your stead , when you shall be gone to be forever with the lord. allow me to say , unto the fathers of this countrey , what was said unto the iudges of old , deal courageously , and the lord shall be with the good . and as for vs , that are and shall be inferiors , let us also do what we can , that our god may be still among us . we ought all of us humbly to lay before our worthy rulers that encouragement in ezr. 10 4. arise , for this matter belongs to thee , we also will be with thee , be of good courage & do it . let there be a publick spirit in us all , for the good of the whole ; the rarity & mortality whereof among us , new-england bewails among the greatest of its calamities . especially , let us pray hard , that god would not leave the land. it was a publique spirit which was in that famous prince of orange , who was the first captain general of the vnited provinces an hundred years ago ; and the ancestor of that illustrious person , whose glorious design and service , we have lately with so much unanimity declared for ; that when he was basely murthered by the pistol of a papist , his dying and only words were , o my god , take pitty of my soul , and of this poor people . when he had but one breath to draw in the world his poor people had half of it ! o let this poor people have no less than half our cares , half our prayers . let no man say , i am a sorry creature , of what account can my prayers be ? for you that can do little else but pray , can yet be the instruments of saving this poor people , by the presence of the lord. we find in amos. 7.2 . that a poor h●rdsman and huckster , kept the great god from leaving of the land. a poor husbandman , yea a poor woman , by lively prayers , may do incredibly much towards the keeping of our god yet among us . and if god be with us , then his rod , and staffe , his mighty crook , which horribly breaks the bones of all that it falls upon , will crush and wound all that shall go to make this wilderness , a valley of the shadow of death unto us ; and beat away all that may essay to do us any harm . so shall we be led and fed among the sheep of our god ; he will restore us , and his goodness and mercy shall follow us all our dayes . mantissa . thus have the words of god been calling upon us , to beware of loosing his gracious presence . now the presence of god , will either go or stay with his gospel ; and the principal danger of new-england lies in its giving an ill entertainment unto that glorious gospel of our lord jesus . let us then see wether the works of god , have not also been calling upon us to take heed of that epidemical evil ; and let what has befallen some of our neighbours , in our dayes be produced as a warning unto us to avoid any contempt of that gospel , which others have smarted for the slighting of . i would fill the remaining pages of this sheet with a discourse fetch 't from a reserved collection of memorable providences , not improper to be produced on this occasion . matth . x. 14.15 . whosoever shall not receive you , nor hear your words , it shall be more tolerable for sodom and gomorrah in the day of iudgement , than for that city . to despise and reject the glorious gospel of jesus christ , is an evil , than which none is more evil ; and yet nothing is more ordinary than this extraordinarily sinful sin ; which vnbeleef may be accounted , as tertullian of old esteem'd idolatry , the praecipuum ●rimen humani generis , the grand crime of ●ankind . low thoughts about the person , ●nd the office , and the beauty of the lord ●esus ; contemtuous apprehensions of his truths ●nd his wayes , and his ordinances ; these ●re the things which bring the most signal ●ery wrath of god upon the children of un●erswadeableness . the peculiar controversy ●f god with man , in the managing of which ●he most high god inflicts upon particular persons , at once a blasting on their estates , ●nd a blindness on their spirits here , as the ●rologue to the hottest vengeance of eternal ●re in the dismal vaults of hell below , is not ●o much on the score of all their other profa●ity & iniquity , as this one thing , they sleight the redeemer of their souls . and this is that thing , by which whole nations & peoples bring ●wift destruction upon themselves ; that thing ●or which all the seals , all the trumpets , all the vials in the apocalypse , have brought in the direful plagues of the almighty upon the paegan and the papal , after the ruine of the iewish world. they have maintained a vile praejudice against the saving and the ruling , hands of a gracious mediator . o that , besides the other innumerable rebukes of heaven upon mankind for this madness in their hearts , the following instances of divine displeasure may awaken us to take heed of an evil heart of vnbelief . exemple i. ¶ among all the nations of wild salvages by which the vast territory of new-england was inhabited , scarce any was more potent or populous than that of the narragansetts . unto those miserable heathen was the gospel , and a gospel without charges too , offered by some english preachers of it , but they peremptorily with much affront & contempt refused the glad tidings of salvation by iesus christ , praeferring their own devillish rites & gods before the new thing tendered unto them . an holy man , then famous throughout our churches , hereupon let fall a speech to this purpose , i speak altogether without the spirit of god , if this nation be not speedily & remarkably destroyed . and so it happened . this nation , much against the advice of the more aged men among them , engaged in the late bloody armed conspiracy with the other indians in the countrey to cut off the english : in prosecution of which , after they had done many acts of hostility , the english army took the just provocation in the depth of winter to assault the strong fort & swamp in which was their general rendezvouz . the number of our forces was much inferiour unto theirs , but with a wonderful valour , & memorable success , on our part , the day was carried against the tawny infidel● ▪ their city was laid in ashes , two and twenty of their cheef captains were kill'd , with we know not how many hundreds or thousands of the common indians ; after which , mortal sickness & horrid famin pursued the remainders of them ; so that there are scarce any of them that we know of , to be now seen upon the face of the earth . exemple . ii. ¶ the ringleader of the last warr which the indians afflicted the english in this land withal , was philip the prince of the wompan●ags . that gracious and laborious apostle of the indians , the reverend iohn eliot , made a tender of the gospel to this monster , who after the indian mode of joining signs with words , pulling off a button on the good man's coat , told him , he did not value what he said so much as that : and he moreover hindred his subjects from embracing the christian religion through a fear which he expressed , that it might obstruct something of their civil absolute unlimited obedience to him . after his invasion of the english with some unhappy success , the hand of god so fell upon him , as that after many calamities , one of his own vassals upon a disgust at him , for killing an indian who had propounded an expedient of peace with the english , ran away from him , informing our forces where he was ; and they came upon him in the thicket , just as he was telling his counsellours of his dream the night before , that the english had taken him , and while he endeavoured an escape an indian shott him thro' the heart , whereof he dyed immediately , nor are any considerable part of his people now to seen any where out of their own place . exem . iii. some time since there were sundry well disposed persons in virginia , upon whose affectionate letters , full of desires , that they might enjoy the meanes of eternal salvation , diverse worthy ministers were sent from hence unto them , mr. thomson , mr. knowles , & mr. iames ; who after a passage so tedious & dangerous as made them almost suspect their call , at length arrived there , where god gave them a blessed success of their labours , with a loving & a liberal entertainment in the countrey : yet it was not long before the rulers of the plantation drove them away by an order , that all such as would not conform to certain things , which the consciences of these gentlewere known to scruple , should leave the countrey by such a day . before that black day came , the indians , who for some hundreds of miles had entred into a consoederacy to cut off all strangers , made a dreadful massacre of the english , & 300 at least were suddenly kill'd by the natives there : a grievous mortality by sickness did also accompany the said massacre , so that many removed from thence , & many of the rest glorified & magnified the justice of god , thus avenging the quarrel of his refused gospel . finis . an appendix touching prodigies in new-england . as an appendix to the endeavours used in the foregoing treatise , to commemorate the wonderful works of god , and at the same time to awaken this countrey unto such a devotion and repentance as the works of god are calling for : it ought to be seriously enquired , whether we have not been by any prodigies warned of the evils near unto us ? tho' it must be confessed , that our hearts were pr●digiously obdurate and insensible , if we needed any , while we have moses and the prophets . the written word of god is that firmament , spread over the spiritual , which answers the expansum in the natural world ; and the threatnings with the histories therein shining and thundering , would givē to ā sinful people , as great a praemonition of impendin● plagues , as the most portentous armies in th● air , or comets in the aether of the universe . yet even insolit accidents of nature , as well as faithful cautions of scripture have been employ'd for our awakening in our late stupidity . indeed there are some from whom we might have expected a less unreasonable scepticism , who deride all prodigies ; but these gentlemen , like those who deny original sin , do in their own disputation confute themselves , by giving , yea , by being an instance of the very thing , which they oppose . nay , let no more than the authorities and varieties recited by the great zuinger , in his elaborate theatre , upon the head of prodigies , be faitly considered , and i know not whether you will allow them to be called gentlemen , that shall be so disingenuous as to make a ridicule of all in this kind , that has been hitherto reported and believed . i acknowledge , that there ought to be much accuracy in the observation of prodigies ; and that those things ought not always to be accounted prodigies which are extraordinaries ; and that it is a simple thing to believe every word ; and since i have seen the nonconformist . reproched for their minding of prodigies , by the loose pens of certain writers , whom , weighing well their accomplishments , by their own rule , we ought not to mind , i have been desirous that we may so far take the informations , tho' we value not the iudgments of their malice , as to be sufficiently critical in this important point ; yet we may not by profanity maintain our own security . altho' that the eternal god , hate robbery for burnt offering , and it is as dangerous as 't is an officious thing , to ly for him : nevertheless those people , i am sure , were stigmatized for none of the wisest , who regard not the works of the lord , nor the operation of his hands ; and the communion between us and the angels , either good or bad , which are invisibly about us , is more frequent , and upheld and applied unto more purposes than mankind is happy enough to be well aware . i therefore pass on to say , that new-england also seems to have had its prodiges . we have had inded one omen , which was rather a prophesy than a prodigy unto us . i remember that leontius , the aged and famous minister of antioch , pointing to his own white head , said unto his people , brethren , when this bank of snow falls , i can tell you , that you 'll have a dirty time on 't ; intimating the troubles and quarrels that should happen among them , after his decease . truly that sort of snow fell so fast among us , and the precious , praying , excellent old disciples were so fast interr'd , that we might well conceive as much of our quiet , would go away with them , as there went of our glory . but i yet speak too figuratively , to answer the expectations of my reader ; let him then know : that just before our late vexations , we were terrified with an earth-quake in the southern parts of the countrey . and if so base a man as polydore virgil could reckon an earth-quake in england long since , the forerunner of a bloody and cruel french war , we that knew what neighbours w● had , were not without ground of conjectures that were none of the most comfortable or encouraging . in the summer of the year , 1688. just before the first eruption of our unhappy war , we had growing in boston a cabbage root , out of which there sprouted three very wonderful branches , one of them exactly re●e●bling a 〈◊〉 , another of them , as exactly resembling a rapier , and a third , extreamly like to the club used by the indians in their barbarous executions . i was my self one among the multitudes that visi●ed this curios●●y , with no little surprize at the odness of it ; and the characters of it in my thoughts have grown more 〈◊〉 and solemn , since the 〈◊〉 of it have been so agreeable . i 〈…〉 imagine my self herein impos'd upon , as lycosthenes who wrote of prodigies , was in the business of his bearded grapes ; but it would be cranibe his cocta for me to offer the reader what exemples parallel hereunto are mentioned by the exquisitely learned , and curious authors of the renowned german ephemerides . moreover , it was credibly affirmed , that in the winter of the year 1688 , there fell a red snow , which lay like blood on a spot of ground , not many miles from boston ; but the dissolution of it by a thaw , which with in a few hours melted it , made it not capable of lying under the contemplation of so many witnesses as it might have been worthy of . the bloody shower that went before the suffering of the ancient britains from the picts , ( a sort of people that painted themselves like our indians ) this prodigy seem'd a second edition of . and in the opinion of the most critical observers , throughout the countrey , they were prodigious , or at least , uncommon sights and sounds , which on the first of october , in the year , 1689. we were entertained withal , and not unlike those which pliny mentions as presages to the cimbric wars of old ▪ for on that day , in the morning , while the sky was too clear , to give us a suspicion of any thing like thunder approaching , there suddenly blazed a flame● in the fashion of a sword ; which blaze after a continuance , far longer than that of an ordinary lightning , expired in a smoke that gave terror unto the beholders of it . but hereunto succeeded immediately very terrible and repeated noises , exactly like volleys of small shot , not without reports like those of great guns super added thereunto . this was a scaene which all the colonies of this large countrey , and thousands of people , at once were spectators of , carrying in it , something , beyond the known laws which ordinary meteors are conform'd unto . and herein was indeed one circumstance , that gave demonstration , of something rare and great in this occurrent ; that persons which were distant from one another many scores of miles above an hundred , yet at the same time , both saw and heard the whole of what is now related ; and though i know , the fancies of men applying themselves unto what is in the clouds , are fruitful even to a ridicule ; strong imagination being able to find , even a iuno in them ▪ and all that can be any where imagined ; the shapes of clouds , like the clinks of bells , humoring the thoughts ▪ of any one ; yet in this accident , no small , numbers of gentlemen , who do not use to be imposed upon , but count no trial severe enough to examine things of this nature with , were so surprised as with one mouth to say , the finger of god was here ! but with him are left the events of all . and in the mean time we are not ignorant , that nunquam futilibus excand●it ignibus aether ▪ finis . errata . page 1. l. last , read saying . page 9. line 5. read iews . page 37. line 1. dele can. page 44. line 1. read as at . page 44 line last r. undone . page 45. line 13. for gave . r. have . a iust and necessarie apologie of certain christians, no lesse contumeliously then commonly called brownists or barrowists. by mr. iohn robinson, pastor of the english church at leyden, first published in latin in his and the churches name over which he was set, after translated into english by himself, and now republished for the speciall and common good of our own countrimen apologia justa et necessaria quorundum christianorum, aeque contumeliose ac communiter, dictorum brownistarum sive barrowistarum. english robinson, john, 1575?-1625. 1625 approx. 178 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 37 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-08 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a10834 stc 21108 estc s102955 99838714 99838714 3102 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a10834) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 3102) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1152:09) a iust and necessarie apologie of certain christians, no lesse contumeliously then commonly called brownists or barrowists. by mr. iohn robinson, pastor of the english church at leyden, first published in latin in his and the churches name over which he was set, after translated into english by himself, and now republished for the speciall and common good of our own countrimen apologia justa et necessaria quorundum christianorum, aeque contumeliose ac communiter, dictorum brownistarum sive barrowistarum. english robinson, john, 1575?-1625. [72] p. successors of g. thorp], [amsterdam : printed in the yeere of our lord m.dc.xxv. [1625] a translation of: robinson, john. apologia justa et necessaria quorundum christianorum, aeque contumeliose ac communiter, dictorum brownistarum sive barrowistarum. place of publication and printer from stc. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic 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understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng brownists -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. 2004-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-06 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-06 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a ivst and necessarie apologie of certain christians , no lesse contumeliously then commonly called brownists or barrowists . by mr. iohn robinson , pastor of the english church at leyden , first published in latin in his and the churches name over which he was set , after translated into english by himself , and now republished for the speciall and common good of our own countrimen . psal. 41. 2. o blessed is he that prudently attendeth to the poore-weakling . printed in the yeere of our lord m.dc.xxv . a iust and necessarie apologie . the cryme of heresy none ought patiently to indure , sayd ierom of ould ; and that not without cause : for whereas in other accusations , eyther a mans goods , or good name , or bodily life , at the most , is indaungered ; in this , the life of the soul ( which fayth is ) commeth in question . but well it is for the servants of iesus christ , that they have him ( their gratious lord , and saviour ) for their iudg : by whose alone judgment ( notwithstanding all mens prejudices ) they shall stand , or fall for ever . and , if any others any where , surely i , and they with me , have need to get this divine comfort deeplie printed in our hearts ; whose profession giues occasion to many , as doth our condition liberty unto all , to spare no severitie of censure upon us . four sorts of heavie freinds we have found , and felt in sorrowfull experience wheresoever we have become . the first whereof is the unhallowed multitude , who living without god in the world ; and walking themselvs perversly , and in the workes of darknes , cannot but hate , as the light it self , so all those , who haue receaved grace of god , to walke therein with good conscience . and as the apostles in their dayes were everie where most vexed with the hatred of the unbeleeving iewes , their own countrymen ; so are we by the like of ours like mynded . of whom whilst the most do want their countrie for causes so unlike unto ours , no marvayl though there be no better concurrance of eyther affection , or action between us . the second is of them , who are enamoured on that romish hierarchie , as on a stately , and potent ladie . against which , and for the holy presbyteriall government , as christs institution by his apostles , whilst we doe in word and deed , give a free , & full testimonie ; alasse , with how many , and how great waves of affliction are we overwhelmed by their ●atred , and power ? dem●trius of ephesus , with his silver-smiths , was of all other men , to the apostle paul ( opposing himself to the majestie of diana , and the●● profit withall ) the most infestuous . and who will marvayl , if we nothing obsequio●s to the hierarchicall diana ( in her self , magnificent enough , & enough advantageable unto hers ) be abhominable unto this kinde of people , aboue all others , even atheists , papists and most flagitious persons not excepted , whom they haue devout enough , and over , unto that goddesse . a third kinde is of those , who so servily inbondage themselues , and their consciences , either to the edicts of princes , or to the determinations of certaine doctors , or to both these jointly , as that they think nothing well done in case of r●ligion , which eyther these teach not , or they commaund not : and on the other side , almost any thing warrantable , which is commended by the one of them , or commaunded by the other . and as of these some are so transported with wa●pish zeale , as they can scarcely without a fit of an ague , eyther speak to , or think of him , who a litle steps out of their troad ; so others of them are so cunning , and wote so well how to make their market , that though they be indeed almost like mynded with us in all things , yet do they vehemently affect unchristian emnitie with us : not because they themselues judge us so deserving ; but others , whom therein they think it a poynt of their wisdom to gratify . the fourth , and last sorte are they , who through credulitie , and lightnes of beleif haue their ears open to the false , and feigned suggestions of slaunderous tongues . these men whilst they are over good , and easie towards the evill , and injurious , unto whom they give credence ; become injurious themselus to the good , and innocent : though in truth it be hard to say , unto which of three they doe the greatest wrong ▪ whether to their brethren , of whom they causelesly conceaue amisse , whilst either they greedily devour , or easily receave such false reports , & vituperies , as venemous tongues spit out against them : or to their own souls , which they thereby make accessorie to others mallice : or to the calumniators themselus , whom they put in heart to go bouldly on in reproaching the innocent , whilst they know , where to finde receavers for their slaunders , as do theeues for their stoln goods . now , alasse , what sufficient bulwark of defence haue we ( poore people ) to oppose unto the violence of so many , and mightie adversaries ? first , and most ( as a brazen wall ) 〈◊〉 cons●●ence before god , and men ( so farre as humain frailtie will permit ) pure , and unsteyned . next , thine equanimitie joyned with wisdom ( godly , and christian reader ) : for whose cause we haue pe●●ed , and published this our just , and necessarie defence : lest being circumvented by prejudice , thou mayst happen to hate that whereof thou art ignorant : then which nothing in tertullians judgment , is more uniust , no not though the thing in it self iustly deserue hatred . by this we do earnestly crave , that ( as thou safely mayst , so ) thou wilst ingenuously passe sentence upon us , and our profession and not by the unsavourie reportes eyther in word , or writing , of our adversaries whomsoever : who do most commonly take libertie to suggest against us ( underlings , ) not what in truth & conscience they should ; but what eyther fame reporteth , or ignorance suspecteth , or mallice inventeth , or proud contempt deems suiteing with our meannes and simplicitie . two opprobries ( amongst others infinite ) haue beene of late by our adversaries cast upon us ; by which we are not onely occasioned , but after a sorte necessitated to the publishing of this our apologie : lest by not resuting such criminations ( so great , and greivous ) we should seeme to acknowledg a cryme , as cyprian speaketh . the former , by some of those , who in our owne countrie , are reputed the cheif masters and patrons both of religion & truth : by whom there hath been , not a flying bruit spread amongst the multitude ; but a solemn accusation to them in speciall authoritie , framed against us : first , that we ( lewd brownists ) do refuse , and reject one of the sacraments : secondly , that we haue amongst us no ecclesiasticall ministrie , but doe giue libertie to everie mechanicall person to preach publiquely in the church . thirdly , that we are in errour about the verie trinitie . fourthly , and lastly , that being become so odious to the magistrates here , as that we are by violence to be driven the countrie , we are now constreyned to seek some other , and farr parte of the world to settle in . the other contumelie is in a duch rhime without name , framed it may be , ( and as commonly it comes to passe ) between the cup and the wall , as sayth the proverb . this balad-maker comparing the receaved religion in the dutch churches to a tree : the sectaries in the countrie ( of which he nameth not a few ) to certayn beasts endeavouring this trees ruine , and overthrow , likens the brownists to a litle worme , gnawing at the root thereof ; and not having lesse will , but lesse power to hurte , then the residue . wee are indeed wormes and not men , the reproach of men , and despised of the people , whom high and low , and all that will , may without daunger , tread , and trample under foot . but to giue thee satisfaction ( christian and indifferent reader ) whosoever thou art , that chusest rather to take knowledg of mens innocencie , then to condemn the same unknown ; and that it may appear unto thee , how alike unhonest our adversaries are in their accusations , though of unlike condition in themselus , we do professe before god and men , that such is our accord in the case of religion , with the duch reformed churches , as that we are ready to subscribe to all , and everie article of faith in the same church , as they are layd down in the harmonie of confessions of fayth , published in their name : one onely particle ( and the same not of the greatest weight ) in the sixth article , touching the scriptures , being conveniently interpreted , and conformably to it self , & the generall judgment of the learned amongst them . the scope of the article is , ( as appears in the margent ) to distinguish between the books canonicall , and apocriphall , as they are called . touching which apocryphall notwithstanding it is judged , and affirmed , that they may be read in the church . which if it be meant of their private reading by the members of the church , we willingly assent : if of publique , pastorall , and ecclesiasticall reading , we are indeed otherwise mynded : neither admit we any other books to that dignitie in the church , then such as were penned by the holy men of god , moved by the holy ghost . 2 pet. 1 , 21. and as the apostle iames testified of the iewes , that they had moses read in the synagogue everie sabbath day : so we think it sufficient for the christian assemblyes , that with moses christ , that is , the books of the new testament be joyned with the old , and they alone be read . neither need we seek further , or for other arguments to confirme our opinion , then the article it self affoardeth us . the words thereof are these : moreover , we put a difference between the holy writings , and those which they call apocryphal , to wit , so as the apocryphall may indeed 〈◊〉 read in the church , & that it may be lawfull to take instructions from ●hem , so far sorth , as they agree with the canonicall books : but such 〈…〉 hand is their authoritie , or firmnes , that upon their testimonie any doctrine of faith , and christian religion may be founded , much lesse that they haue force to infringe , or weaken the others authoritie . and first , if the apocriphall books be publiquely read in the church , as well as the canonicall , the difference which in word is professed , seems indeed by this so reading them , to be taken away : since the selfe same religious act ( viz. publique reading ) is performed about the one and other , although not altogether to the same end . and if publique reading of the canonicall scriptures be commanded of god in his worship , either the reading of these apocripha books is a parte of gods worship also , ( which the belgick churches do not beleiv ) or els they must be unlawfull to be read publiquely in the church , especially comming together for that onely end of worshipping god. publiquely , i say ; for the private reading of them , as of other books , comes not under the respect of worship properly , but of an act , and exercise preparati●● unto worship , as both law●ers , and divines speak . secondly , in this verie article , the canonicall bookes , as opposed to the apocriphall , are called holy writeings . the apocriphall then are not holy , as not being hallowed to this end , that is not commaunded of god in the holy writeings of the prophets , and apostles . now what haue the holy assemblies to do , especially convening , and meeting together for the solemn worship of god , and exercising themselus in the same , with books not holy , that is , not hallowed , or injoyned of god , for his most holy service● thirdly , seeing these books are apocriphall , that is , hidden , and concealed , their verie name may put them in minde of their duetie in concealing themselvs within the vaile of privacie . and surely no small immodestie it is in them , which ought to conteyn themselus in private use , and interteynment , thus bouldly to presse into publique assemblie . they must therefore change either their names , or their manners ; as women by their sex , so they by their name , well expressing their nature , are inhibited all libertie of speaking in the church . i●d , and conclude out of our countrie-man m. broughton , that those apocriphall books are so stuffed with trifles , fables , lyes and superstitions of all sorts ; that the midle place between the ould and new testament , as ill becomes them , as it would do a turkish slaue , and leaper , between two the noblest princes of all europe . but to return whence i dig●essed . seing that ( as appears in the preface ) the intention of the belgick churches was , as in divulging their confession , to render a reason of the hope , which is in them , and plainly to make known their perswasion in the matter of fayth ; so also in publishing the harmony of confessions , to giue all men to understand , and take knowledg of that most near conjunction which they haue with the sacred , and truely catholique church of god , and all the holy and sound members thereof : by what tight , or rather injurie could we be excluded from the followship of the same churches , who do 〈◊〉 better accorde , and have greater congruitie with them in the matter of fayth & religion , then the greatest part of those , whose confessions they do publi●● to the veiw of all men , as the congnissance , and badges of their christian consociation ? and with what conscience of a christian , or rather licentiousnes of a rhymer , could that adversarie traduce us to the world , as endeavoring the ruine of the reformed churches ? but perhaps , that which may be , is suspected to be by some , ( which also the false accuser doth insinuate in his libell against us ) and that , what in word we professe , we denye in deed ; and what we would seem to build with our tongues , we do , as it were , with our hands pull down . if so it be , and that in deed we be found to be such , i doe freely confesse , that no censure upon us can be too severe , no hatred more greivous then we do deserv . now the guilt of this evill must cleav unto our fingers , if at all , one of these two wa●es , either in regard of our selvs , or of the reformed churches . for our selvs , and our course of life , ( for necessitie compelleth , as it were foolishly to bable out that , wherein modestie perswadeth silence ) and how we converse with god , and men , whether publiquely in the church , or privately in the family , we refuse not , by the grace of god bestowed upon frayl creatures , labouring of the same humain infirmities with other men , the search and censure of our most bitter adversaries , if not destitute of all , both honestie , and wisdom . touching the reformed churches , what more shall i say ? we account them the true churches of iesus christ , and both professe , & practise communion with them in the holy things of god , what in us lyeth ; their sermons such of ours frequent , as understand the dutch tongue ; the sacraments we do administer unto their known members , if by occasion any of them be present with us ; their distractions , and other evils we do seriously bewayl , and do desire from the lord their holy , and firm peace . but happily , it wil be objected , that we are not like-mynded with them in all things , nor do approve of sundry practises in use amongst them , if not by publique institution ( which it seems they want ) yet by almost universall consent , and uniform custome . i graunt it ; neither doubt i , but that there are many godly , and prudent men in the same churches , who also dislike in effect the things which we doe : and amongst other things , this mal●part , and unbridled bouldnes of unskilfull men , who make it a very may-game to passe most rash censure upon the fayth , and so by consequence , upon the eternall salvation of their brethren , and to impeach their credit , whom they neither do , nor perhaps willingly would know : lest that which they lust to condemn unknown , they should be constreyned to allow , if they once knew it : and withall to disallow that , into which they themselvs haue been led formerly by common errour of the times . which maladie is also so frequent , and ordinarie , as that it may truely be said of many , that they then think themselus most acceptable unto god , when they can make their brethren ( differing from them in some smaller matters ) most odious unto men . this rageing plague except the lord god in mercie asswage , and bend the mindes of godly , and modest men ( the ministers of his word ) to put to their helping hand that way , it wi● without all doubt , come to passe , ( which god forbid ) that the multitude of christians will come to judg of their estate with the lo●● not so much by the christian vertues , which themselvs indeed have as which they imagine others want . but that it may appear unto thee ( christian reader ) wherein 〈◊〉 do dissent from the dutch reformed churches , and upon wha● grounds : and that none may take occasion of suspicion , that the things are either greater , or more absurd , for which those hateful● brownists are had by many in such detestation , then indeed an● truth they are , i will breifly , as i can , present unto thy christian vei● either all , or the most , & our greatest differences , with the ground● thereof . chap. i. of the largenes of churches . and first , it is evident , that the most , especially cittie-churches , are so great and populous , as that two or three dive● temples are not sufficient for one , and the same church to meet● at once . we on the contrarie , so judg , that no particular churc● under the new testament , ought to consist of more members , the● can meet together in one place ; because , 1. the holy scriptures speaking definitely of the politicall , or ministeriall , commonly called , visible church , instituted by christ and his apostles , by his power , understand none other then on● congregation convening , and comming together , ordinarie at least in one place . math. 18 , 17 , 20. gathered together in my name : wi●● 1 corinth . 5 , 4. when you are come together . act. 2 , 44. al● that beleeved were together : and chap. 5 , 12. they were all with one accord in salomons porch . also chap. 6 , 2 , 5. and chap. 13 , 1 , 2. with ●4 , 27. and 14 , 23. with tit. 1 , 5. act. 15 , 4 , 22 , 25. and 21 , 22. so 1 corinth . 11 , 20. when yee therefore come together in one , to wit place , not minde , as some conceipt , for from that the corinthians were to far : and lastly chap. 14 , 23. if the whole church come together into some place . 2. there is then had the most full , and perfit communion of the body in the holy things of god , which is the next and immediate end of the visible church , when all the members thereof do convene , and assemble together in some one place . and if nature , as philosophers teach , ever intend that which is most persit , much more grace . now that the church ( commonly called visible ) is then most truely visible indeed , when it is assembled in one place ; and the communion thereof then most full , and intire , when all its members inspired , as it were , with the same presence of the holy ghost , do from the same pastor , rec●av the same provocations of grace , at the same time , and in the same place : when they all by the same voice , ( banding as it were together ) do with one accord pour out their prayers unto god : when they all participate of one , and the same holy bread ; and lastly , when they all together consent unanimously , either in the choice of the same officer , or censuring of the same offender , no man admitting a due thought of things , can make doubt of . 3. we have the apostle paul giving it in charge to the elders of everie particular church ( as was that of ephesus ) that they take heed unto al the flock , whereof the holy ghost made them bishops , or overseers , to feed the church of god , which he hath purchased with his own blood . but surely , as that flock is verie inordinate , if not monstrous , which for the largenes thereof , neither ever doth , nor possibly can feed together ; so that sheepheard of the lords flock seemeth not aright , and as he ought , to fulfill his charge , which doth not at the least , everie lords day , minister unto the same , the wholesom food of gods word . ad hereunto , that in these huge and vast flocks , the governers cannot take knowledg of the manners of the people private , or publick ; no nor so much , as of their presence at , or absence from the church assemblies : whereby what domage cometh unto true pietie , any man may easily conjecture , and miserable experience makes too too manifest in the reformed churches . i conclude therefore , since ( as iunius sayth ) it concerneth the pastour throughly to know the church committed unto him , the persons , their works and courses , without the knowledg of which things , he shall profit them no more then a tincking cymball , &c. that it were a point of good provision both for the conscience of the officers , and edification of the people , that a division were made of the cittie-churches , which by continuall accession of members , are thus grown out of kinde , into different , and distinct congregations , under their certain , and distinct pastours , and elders . if any object , that there is one visible , and catholick church , comprehending as the parts thereof , all the particular churches , and severall congregations of divers places ; as there is one ocean , or sea , dive●sly called , according to the divers regions by whose shores it passeth ; and that therefore this matter is not worth labour spending about it , i answer , first , that the catholick church neither is , nor can be called visible : since onely things singular are visible , and discerned by sence : whereas universals , or things catholick , are either onely in the understanding , as some are of minde , or as others think better , are made such , to wit universals , by the understanding , abstracting from them all circumstanstiall accidents , considering that the kindes intelligible have their existence in nature , that is in the individuals . 2. the catholick church , with due reverence unto learned ned men be it spoken , is verie unskilfully said to be one , as the sea is one . for , first , it is expressedly said gen. 1 , 9 , 10. that the waters which were under the heauens , were gathered into one place , or conceptacle , which god called sea , or seas . but the catholick church , which is said to comprehend al particular congregations in her bosom , is not gathered together into one place , nor ever shall be , before the glorious coming of christ. 2. the ocean is a body so continued , as that all , and everie part thereof is continually fluent , so as the self same waters , which in their flux do make one sea , do in their reflux by contrarie windes , make another , and so contrariewise . but thus to affirm of particular churches , and their materiall constitutive cause , were most absurd . 3. if some one particular sea were drawn drie , or should fail his course , a disturbance of all the rest would necessarily follow ; but and if the sea should in divers places at once happen to be exhausted , or drawn drie , there would then be a fayling of the ocean : neither were the waters now gathered into one place , neither made they one sea , and body of water , either continued , or conjoyned . but now , on the other side , upon the defection , or dissipation of this or that particular church , no such impediment should come in the way , but that the rest might hould their full course , as before . yea , i adde moreover , if all , and everie particular assembly in the world should languish , and fall away , ( one onely excepted ) that ( onely ) one did still remain the true , & entire church of christ , without any either subordination , or coordination , or dependencie spirituall , save unto christ alone . the reason is plain , because this singular , and sole assembly may under christ the head , use , and enjoy everie one of his institutions : the communion of saints combyned together in solemn , and sacred covenant , the word of god , sacraments , censures , and ministrations whatsoever by christ appointed , and therewith the same christs most gratious presence . and upon this ground it is , that the apostle paul doth intitle the particular congregation , which was at corinth , and which properly , and immediately he did instruct , and admonish , to the body of christ , the temple of god , and one virgin espoused to one housband christ. we may not therefore under pretence of antiquitie , unitie , humain prudence , or any colour whatsoever , remove the auncient bounds of the visible and ministeriall church , which our right fathers , to wit , the apostles , have set , in compar●son of whom , the most ancient of those , which are so called , are but infants , and beardlesse , as one truely , and wittily sayth . there is indeed one church , and as the apostle speaketh , one bodie , as one spirit , one hope of our calling , one sayth , one baptism ; that is , of one kinde , and nature ; not one in number , as one ocean . neither was the church at rome in the apostles dayes , more one with the church of corinth , then was the baptism of peter one with pauls baptism , or then peter , and paul were one . neither was peter or paul more one , whole , intire , and perfit man ( consisting of their parts essentiall , and integrall ) without relation unto other men ; then is a particular congregation ( rightly instituted , and ordered ) a whole , intire , and perfit church immediately , and independently , in respect of other churches , under christ. to conclude , since the pastor is not a minister of some part of a church , but of the whole particular church , act. 20 , 28. attend to the whole flock , or church , whereof the holy ghost hath made you bishops &c. if the ministers office be to be confined within the circle of a particular congregation , then also the ministeriall church it self . now the pastors office is either circumscribed within these bounds , or els the angell of the church of ephesus was also the angell of the church of s●●rna ; and so the pastour of this church is also the pastour of that ; and by consequence , of all ; that is , everie pastour is an universall bishop , or pope by office , if not for exeq●ution , yet for power ; according to which power , we are to judg of the office . what then ? will some man say . is it not lawfull for a pastour to exequute his pastorall office but in the congregation over which he is set ? i answer with the apostle no man taketh this honour unto himself , but he that● is called of god , as aaron , hebr. 5 , 3 , 4. it is not lawfull for thee ( reverend brother ) to do the work of a pastour where thou art no pastour , lest thou arrogate to thy self that honour , which apperteyns not unto thee . thou art called , that is elected , and ordeyned a pastour of some particular church , and not of all churches . it is not onely lawfull , but requisite , that the pastour of one church ( or ●aither he that is the pastour ) and so any other member , imparte the gift either spirituall , or bodily , which he hath receaved , to other churches , out of the common bond of charitie , in which he is obliged : not so , to exequute a publique office over them by the prerogative of authoritie , which he hath not but onely over his owne . we will illustrate this by a similitude . any citizen of leyd●n may enjoy certain priveledges in the cittie of delph , by vertue of the politick combination of the united provinces , and cittie , under the supream heads thereof the states generall ; which he is bound also to help and assist with all his power if necessitie require ; but that the ordinarie magistrate of leyden should presume to exequute his publique office in the cittie of delph , were an insolent , and unheard of usurpation . the verie same , and not otherwise , is to be said of pastors , and particular churches , in respect of that spirituall combination mutuall under their chief , and sole lord iesus christ. chap. ii. of the administration of baptism . the dutch reformed churches ( as is evident by their practise compared with then profession ) are neither so true unto their own grounds , as they ought , neither do they so well provide for the dignitie of the thing , whilst they administer the sacrament of baptism to the infants of such , as are not within the covenant , nor have either parent a member of any church , because 1. baptism now ( as circumcision of ould ) is the seal of the covenant of god with the faythfull , and their seed , i will be thy god and the god of thy seed . genes . 17 , 9. and the seal of the righteousnes of fayth . rom. 4 , 11. and is one , as there is one sayth , and one baptism . ephes. 4 , 4 , 5. and therefore ought not to be administred to others , then those within the compasse of the same covenant : nor but upon fayth coming between , either of the partie to be baptized , or of one parent at the least . if any shall answer , that this gratious promise of god is not to be restreined to the next immediate children , but is extended euen to those , who follow a fa●r off , i grant it , except infidelitie , or other sin come between ; by which the parents with themselvs break off their seed externally & actually from the cōmunion of the church , & holy things thereof . and if we be not to insist in the next , and immediate parent , why in the grand-father , or great-grand-father , and so for the rest , till we climbe up , as high , as to no●h himself ? whereupon it should follow , that not the infants of iewes , nor of turks , no nor of gentiles neither , should have baptism denyed them . surely the grace of christ must needs be universall , and wherein all have interest , if the seal thereof apperteyn unto all . neither should the church ( amongst whose sacred furniture baptism is ) by this rule be any more the house of god , peculiar to his children and servants ; but more like a common in , whose doore stands wide open to all that passe by the high way . 2. the apostle 1 corinth . 7 , 14. upon this ground , that the one parent is a beleever , avoweth the childe holy : which otherwise he pronounceth impure , in respect of the covenant , and holynes thereof ( leaving unto god his secret judgments ) . now what have the impure , and unhallowed to do with the holy things of god ? and what hath the pastour , and sheepheard in holy things to do with them , who are no portion of the lords flock ? what have i to doe ( sayth the apostle ) to judg them that are without ? do not ye judg them that are within ? so ( reverend brethren ) what have you to do , to baptize them that are without ? do you not baptize them that are within , and them alone ? in the number of whom yet you reckon not those infants ( though baptized by you ) nor belonging to your charge . whence also ( god knoweth ) it cometh to passe , for the most part , that they who are thus by you baptized into the name of the lord , are by their godlesse parents education made the servants of sathan . 3. the baptism of infants , in all soundnes of judgment , serveth , and that immediately for the comfort of their godly parents ; whose hearts it filleth with no small joy , whilst they behould the gratious promise of god made to them and their seed , ratified and confirmed by this seal : even as of ould the circumcision of isaak was granted , and injoyned by god unto abraham his , and our father , first and immediately , for the confirmation of his fayth . whence i conclude , that the seal of the righteousnes of faith ( which baptism is ) doth no more belong to the seed of godlesse parents , then doth the comfort flowing from the righteousnes of fayth unto the parents themselvs . whom as it would effectually move to more serious , and sad thoughts of their own estate with god , if they beheld their infants ( so dear unto them ) excluded thorough their default from the comfortable ●eal of gods covenant ; so can they not but , by the undue administration of the same , take occasion of hardening themselvs in their accustomed perversnes . i conclude then with tertullian speaking ( as iunius interprets him ) of the children of such , as were strangers from the covenant of god , let them come , when they are grown to year●s ; let them when they have learned , and are taught wherefore they come ; let them then be made christians , when they can know christ. chap. iii. of written leyturgies . vve cannot but mislike that custome in use , by which the pastour is wont to repeat and read out of a prayer-book certayn formes , for his and the churches prayers , and that for these reasons , 1. because this externall mean and manner of worshiping god in prayer is no where found in the written word , ( by the prescript whereof alone he is to be worshipped ) whatsoever either the iewes fable of the leyturgie of ezra ; or the papists of s. peters , or s. iames leyturgies . yea , contrariwise , i add for overplusse , that it did not seem good to the apostles , the last penmen of the 〈◊〉 . ghost , that any such prescript form for such end should come in use , in the churches . and this seemeth unto me verie clear , from the former epistle of paul to timothy , chap. 2 , 1 , 2. the kings of the earth in those dayes , and such as were in authoritie under them , being , as it were , so many sworn enemies of the name of christ , this conceipt might easily ( and it seems did ) creepe into the mindes of divers christians , that these kindes of men were raither to be prayed against , then for , by the servants of christ. and now , what was the medicine prescribed by the apostle for this malad●e in that epistle written to timothy for that verie end , that he might know how to converse in the church of god ? did he now either send timothy to any leyturgie formerly let forth for his own and others da●●tion ? or did he himself frame any for the purpose , whose b●●ten troad the churches following afterwards should not erre ? nothing lesse : although a more ●it , and full occasion for that busines scarce be offered : which without doubt , paul would ●o more have l●t slip , th●n did the other apostles , th●t which was more light , for the introduction of deacons , if ●t had seemed good to th● h. ghost ( by whose singe● he was guided in the ordering of the churches ) that any such book-prayer should have come into use . three things especially are objected , which must here be cleared . the first is , that david , and other prophets penned the book of psalmes for the mother church of israell . the second , that christ himself delivered to his disciples a certain form of prayer , commonly called , the lords prayer . the third , that moses from the lord numb . 6. gave direction to aa●on , and his sonnes , in what form of words they should blesse the children of israel . i answer first generally , that the consequence followeth not from the authoritie of christ , and of moses , and of the apostles , in ordeyning these , and these forms of divine worship , for the like authoritie in ordinance bishops , and pastours , to ordeyn other , and divers forms , for the same end . what can be spoken more insolently ? christ the lord , moses , the prophets , and apostles being immediately , and infallibly guided by the spirit of christ , have prescribed certain set formes of gods worship ; therefore others though not immediately and infallibly guided by the same spirit , may also prescribe them . why may they not by this argumentation , as well frame us a new canon of holy scriptures , considering that even th●se verie formes , wherewith also they equalize their own , are parts , and portions of the same scriptures . more particularly . and first for psalms . i deny that there is th● same reason of a prayer , and of a psalm ; or ( whereupon the difference hangeth ) that singing , and praying are all one . for the question is not , which i desire the reader once for all to bea●●●n minde ) eyther of the internall affection of him which singeth , or prayeth , or of the subject matter of the song or prayer : but of the externall act , and exercise of praying and singing . now these two exercises both the holy scriptures , and common sence in everie man , that pleaseth but to open his eyes , and look upon them , do plainly difference . for first , if to sing be to pray , then whosoever singeth prayeth : but how far from truth this is , the psalmes of david , 1 , 2 , and many others in which not the least parcell of prayer is to be found , do plainly evince . 2. is any man sad amongst you , ( sayth the apostle ) let him pray : is he merry let him sing . to pray then , and to sing , are not the same , nor which do agree ( to wit primarily ) with the same constitution of the minde . 3. in prayer the pastours voyce is onely heard , unto which the people , as the apostle teacheth , are to add their ame● but in singing , all the multitude have as well their part for tunable voice , as the pastour himself . neyther can divers possibly sing together , without confusion , but by a certain , and set form both of words , and syllables : which yet may be done in church prayer , and is everie where . 4. we have the same apostle els where teaching us thus : speaking to your selvs in psalms , hymnes and spiritual songs , &c. and again , let the word of christ dwell in you plenteously , with all wisdom , teaching and admonishing yourselvs mutually in psalms hymns , &c. in singing then we doe speak to our selvs , or one to another mutually : but in praying , neither to our selvs , nor to our brethren , but unto god alone . and the reason hereof is evident . when as we read or sing the psalms of david ( for what other thing is it to sing out of a book , then to read with a loud , and harmonious voice ? of which harmonie singing is a kinde ) : these self same psalms in this verie use do still remain , and so are read or sung , as a part of the word of god in the holy scriptures : and in which god speaketh unto us : whereas on the other side , we do speak unto god , in all our prayers , whether mentall onely , or vocall withall . 5. even these verie psalmes , whose matter is prayer , and thanksgiving , were framed , and composed by the prophets into psalms , and spirituall songs , for this verie end , that the men of god might in them teach us , as in the written word of god , whereof they are parts , both what petitions they in their distresses put up to the lord , and also what thanksgiving they returned upon their deliverance , that so we in reading & singing them , might instruct and admonish ourselvs both publiquely , & privatly , whether by way of doctrine , or admonition , or consolation , for the promoteing of the glorie of god in our hearts . lastly , that i may discend unto them , who are onely taught by experience ; if any going out of the temple , wh●lst the church were singing a psalm , either before , or after sermon , being asked of one that met him , what the church were then doing , should answer that it were at prayer ; would he not be judged by all men to tell a ly ? but altogether without cause , if to sing be to pray , as many imagine . touching the lords prayer . we deny it to be the meaning of christ , teaching his dise ples , when they pray to say , our father , &c. to binde them , and the holy ghost in them , by which they ought to pray , to a certain form of words , & sillables , which they should repeat by heart , or ( which is our question , ) read out of a book . because , 1. the two euangelists matthew , and luke of whom both the one and other did aright both understand , and expresse the meaning of christ , do not precisely keep the same words . 2. by these words , when you pray , is meant , whensoever you pray : whereupon it should follow , that we were tyed to this stint of words alone , and alwaies : and so might lawfully use none other , except it be lawfull for us sometimes to pray raither by the levell of our own dev●se , then of christs prescript . the words therefore of cyprian are good in a good sence . to pray otherwise then christ hath taught , is not onely ignorance , but guilt , seeing he himself hath sayd , you reject the precept of god , that you may observ your own tradition . 3. amongst the manie , and manifould prayers of the apostles to be seen in the holy scriptures , this form of words is not found : and yet can it not be denyed , but they alwaies prayed as they were taught in this place by their master christ : whose meaning therefore it could not be to tye them necessarily to anie such certain of words . 4. it appears by the context , that the purpose of christ is to speak of private , or raither secret prayer , and such as everie christian apart from others , and in his closet , with the doore shut unto him , should pour out unto the lord. now that one alone , and by himself should say , our father , seems not verie congtuous . lastly , seeing of the like there is the like consideration , if the apostle iames in these words , go to now , ye that say , to day or to morrow we will goe into such a cittie &c. and vers . 15. for that ye ought to say , if the lord will , we shall live , and doe this or that , do neither simplie fault with the form of words , nor prescribe necessarily anie other , but onely ( to use calvins words ) wakens them from their dream , who without respect of the divine providence , will make themselvs maysters of a whole yeare , when there is not a moment in their power : so neither are we to conceav that our saviour christ math. 6. and luke 11 doth injoin unto his anie set words to pray in , but onely shewes whither all our prayers and vowes ought to be referred , as with all other orthodox writers about this matter , the said author speaketh : howsoever divers uns●kilfull men cease not still to sing unto us , euen to loathsomnes , the song , when you pray say , as the papists do theirs , this is my bodie : as though the controversie were about the words , and not raither about the meaning of them . but for that we are verie odiously traduced by divers , as abhorring from this form , and that we will not ( as they use to speak ) say the lords prayer , i will in few , and plain terms set down what our judgment is about it . 1. and seeing that , as the poet hath it , the names do commonly suit with the things , we may see , and sorrow withall , in the phrases in common use about this most christian duetie of prayer , what it is with the unhallowed multitude of christians to pray , namely to say prayer , to read prayer , to hear prayer , and raither any thing then indeed to pray , that is , then to pour out the conceptions of a godly and devout minde unto god , from faith and feeling of our wants , by the holy ghost . 2. we do affirm , that this form of words is unproperly , how commonly soever , called the lords prayer : as neither being a prayer as it is the lords , nor the lords as it is a prayer . as it is of the lord christ , and so the lords ( whether by himself uttered in words , or committed to writing by his euangel●sts ) it hath the consideration , and respect of a sermon , and of euangelicall doctrine , in which christ taught his disciples ; and not of a prayer put up to his father : as on the contrarie it neither was , nor could be used prayer wise by christ , in so manie words ; with whose most persit sanctimonie it did not agree for him to say , forgive us our trespasses . 3. we do firmly beleiv , that all , and everie both church and person is bound alwayes to pray , as christ hath there taught : whether we respect the matter there propounded , or the affections there injoyned , or the commodious , and compend●ous simplicitie , which christ our saviour , and onely mayster , there opposeth , both to the vain bablings , and oft repetitions of the heathens : and that in these things , and them alone , the commandement of christ doth consist , we both firmly beleiv , and confidently avow . 4. and lastly , we doubt not but that this verie form of words may be , and is rightly used in prayer unto god , provided there be neither opinion of necessitie , by which superstitious persons think themselvs stinted by the lord to words , and sillables , nor of perfection , by which many are of minde , that they have then at the last , and not before prayed per●itly , when they have repeated this form of words . and it is well , if some spot of this myre cleav not to the fingers of many ministers ; which make it a matter of great conscience not to conclude their , and the churches prayers applyed specially to the present state of things , with this number , and measure of words . which custom as it is used verie commonly , so in my judgment , with no great reason , for these two causes . first , it seems to crosse all good order , and method , by which men should d●scend from the more generall unto that which is more speciall : and not go the clean contrarie way , as in this they do . secondly , since the rule , according to phylosophie , and good reason , is alwaies before the thing ruled , and that this form is by christ inst●tuted , for this purpose , that it might be the rule , and squire of all our prayers , and as tertullian saith , is premised , as the foundation of all our accessorie d●s●●es , me thinks the same should raither be used in the first place ; upon which as the same author hath it , everie one should build the circumstances of his occasioned requests . it remayneth that in a few words i answer that , which is by some objected touching those solemn blessings , at the first imparted by the patriarks to their first born , and after by the preists to israel the first born of god. and to let passe , 1. that the composers , and imposers of the leyturg●es now in use have not equall authoritie with moses the man of god , not are th●● writings any way comparable with his : 2. that moses did not prescribe unto the priests a st●nt of words for blessing ( much lesse to be read out of a book ) but the substance of the thing ; which by manie arguments , save that i studie for brevitie , might be proved . 3. if that were moses his minde , and the lords by him , the minister were bound to the same form of blessing upon the israell of god now , which the church is : since there is nothing in it not morall , and perpetuall , or not concerning the church now , as then . i do answer this one thing , & the same in calvins words , viz. that these blessings were not ordinarie prayers , but a lawfull author●tie divinely interposed to testifie the grace of election : which 〈◊〉 also confirms by divers reasons . neither can anie man who considers the words of the text make question , but that the priests in blessing ( israel , not god ) do direct their speach unto israel by way of promise , and not unto god by way of prayer . so blesse you ( saith moses ) the children of israel , saying unto them , the lord blesse thee , &c. the same is to be judged of the salutations of the apostles in their epistles , ( whereof they are a part , and so a part of the holy scriptures ) : albeit yet they in them , as the preists in their blessings , desired to have their truly loving affection taken knowledg of by them to whom they wrote : and what good things they both desired at the hands of the lord for them , and also promised them in his name . 2. we dislike all reading of prayer in the act of praying , as inconvenient , yea directly contrarie unto that act ? in prayer we do pour out matter , to wit the holy conceptions of the minde , from within to without ; that is , from the heart to god : on the contrarie , in reading , we do receav and admit matter from without to within ; that is from the book , into the heart . let him that prayeth do that which he doth , not another thing , not a divers thing . let the whole man , and all that he is , both in soul and bodie , be b●nt upon god , with whom he converseth . the eyes of the minde are lifted to god in prayer ; and why not the eyes of the bodie also ? both which ●e that prayeth , by intending them upon a book , both depresseth , & averteth from god. the apostle exhorteth , that the men pray , lifting up pure hands to god in everie place . in like manner , ( besides the reason of the thing , we have the patriarks , prophets , christ himself , with his apostles , and disciples , for insample of lifting up the eyes to heaven in prayer . not this gesture of body is simply necessarie but most convenient , ( save in some great temptation , and depression of minde , both to expresse , and further the intention of a godly heart . let devout and learned men ( if they please , commit to writing their holy meditations , and secret conferences with god , as did austin , and others amongst the ancients ; and many of later time● which may be read , and that with no small benefit both by pastour and people ; but privately , and for better preparation unto prayer . now the preparation unto prayer is verie unseasonable at the self-same time of the solemn performance thereof ; and unreasonable in , and by the self same act . 3. seeing that publique prayer ( as bucanus saith ) is a second part of the ministrie ; as also that amongst the gifts of the holie ghost , wherewith the pastor is indued from above , that is not small , not to be despised , by which he is able conveniently both for matter , and form , to conceav a prayer according to the churches present occasion ; , and necessities ; by the reading of this prescript form that ( truly excellent ) gift giuen of god for this end is made void , and of none use , and the spirit ( contrarie to that which ought to be ) extinguished . the manifestation of the spirit ( saith the apostle ) is given to everie one ( especially to everie pastour ) to profit withall . but he who reads a form of prayer conceaved , and consigned by another , doth not manifest the pastorall gift , ( for of the internall affection our question is not ) of the spirit given to him to profit withall , but to that other by whom the form of prayer was ind●ted . 4. if to read such a form of prayer be to pray aright , and pastour like no probable reason can be rendred , wherefore to read a sermon , or homilie , is not as well to preach aright , and as is required of the pastour of the church . which so being , small reason had the apostle , treating of the ecclesiasticall ministerie , which principally consists in these two exercises , to crie out , as he did , who is sufficient for these things ? for who is not sufficient even of the vulgar sort ? who can not read a leiturgie , and an homilie ? 5. the spirit ( saith the same apostle , speaking of all christians ) helpeth our infirmities , for we know not what to pray , as we ought . yes , paul , ( with your l●av right well ; for we have in our prayer-book , what we ought to pray , word for word , whether the spirit be present or not . what then is to be done in this busines ? that which tertullian saith the christians of his time did . we pray ( saith he ) without any to prompt us , because we pray from the heart . but he who reads his prayers , or rather the prayers of him that p●nned them , and his lesson out of a book , hath one that prompts him , and that diligently , both what , and how much , and after what manner , and with what words and sillables he ought to pray . lastly , if it would be just matter of shame to any earthly father , that his childe , who desired of him bread , fish , or an egge , should need to read out of a book , or paper , father , pray you give me bread , fish , or egge ; how much more contumel●ous is it , to our heauenly father , and his holy spirit , wherewith he furnisheth all his children , specially his ministers according to their place , that an help so unworthie , and more then babe●sh , and indeed the instrument of a foolish sheepheard , namely a bare reader ( with which kinde of vermin rome , and england are pestered ) should be used by such godly , & learned pastors , as wherewith the reformed churches are furnished chap. iiii. of the ecclesiasticall presbyterie . vve do so acknowledg , and approve of , as divinely instituted , the presbyte●●es of the particular churches , as with all we judg them sundrie wai●es defective . as first we require : that all receaved into the colledg , and company of elders , even those which are called governers , should be apt to teach , and able to exhorte with sound doctrine , and convince g●●nsayers , and that not onely privately , or in the consistorie , but in the publick assemblie also , as the nature of their publique office requireth . i am not ignorant , what that learned man gersom bucer in his late treatise hath published about this matter , neither do i unwillingly assent thereunto : provided onely , that what he requires in those elders , that they be able to performe publiquely , and in the church assembly , if not exactly , yet competently . a second defect , which we wish supplyed is , that of annuall , o● tryennuall or temporarie , they might be perpetuall , and for l●fe , ( except by some casualtie , or occurrence they be disabled ) as the pastours themselvs . this terme of years for the elders administration in the reformed churches , the forenamed author in the same place doth not so much defend , as excuse ; but it seemeth raithe● needfull to have it reformed ( which is also the desire of the said learned man ) and that for these reasons . 1. the apostle paul calling unto him the elders of the church of ephesus to m●letum , doth pronounce of them all , as well the governers , as those that laboured in the word , that they were made bishops or overseers of the same church , by the holy ghost . now the authoritie of that the appo●nter ought to work in the appointed great conscience , not lightly to relinquish that charge , which by the disposition of the holy ghost they had taken upon them . 2. the same apostle doth in the same place admonish , and exhort the same elders that they should take heed unto themselvs , and to all the fl●●k , lest the same , after his departure should unhappily be damnified , either by wolves entering in among them , or such as should rise up from themselvs speaking perverse things . now if the date of their eldership , & charge were shortly to be out , they might well think with themselvs , that the apostles admonition for after times did not much concern them , whose term of office should so shortly be expired , and were perhaps to follow the apostles departure at the heeles . 3. it was sacriledg for the levites being consecrated to the lord , for the service of the tabernacle and temple , to retire from the office undertaken by them , although ( age growing upon them ) they were exempted from some the more labo●●ous works of that ministration : how then is it lawfull for the elders , or deacons ( being now no more at their own disposing , but as the levites of ould , the lords sacred and consecrated ones ) to withdraw so lightly from his speciall service ? no man under the law might change a beast , if clean , no not a better for a worse , if once hallowed to the lord. how much lesse may the church then discharge her officers ( or they themselvs ) ministering faythfully , and as they ought ? lastly , the apostle paul instructing the church in timothy to keep the commandement of christ unrebukeable untill that his glorious appearing , doth not permit , no not to the widowes & d●aconesses to ●elinquish the office once taken upon them : unto whom for that verie cause he forbids mariage it self , otherwise permitted to all , and to some injoyned . how much lesse lawfull is it for the elders , or deacons of the church ( whose both condition , and ministerie is far more excellent ) for far lighter causes , to look back , and relinquish their vocation , wherein christ hath in such sort placed them ? a third thing there is , and that of most moment , viz. that the elders do not administer their publique office publiquely , as they should , but onely in their private consistorie . and first , the administrat on of everie office doth ●n right follow the nature of the same ; whether domesticall in the familie , or civill in the common wealth , or spirituall in the church : the elders office then being publique , requires answerable , and publique administrat on . not that it is unlawfull for the elders to convene , and meet apart from the bodie , and to deliberate of such things as concerns the same , and so to do sundrie things by vertue of their office , but because that is not sufficient , neither do they indeed fulfill their publique , and church office , office , which in the lord they have receaved , except as privately , and and in their consistorie , so also ( and that specially ) publiquely , and in the face of the congregation they exequute the same . 2. the apostle beseecheth them of thessalonica that they would in love highly esteem for their works sake , not onely them which laboured among them , to wit , in doctrine ; but them also , which were over them in the lord , and admonished them . but of the work of their elders which govern , the reformed churches must needs be ignorant ; neither doe , or can they know , whether they be good , or bad . their pastours they do prosequute with due love , & honour , out of their own certain knowledg of them and their work , but their elders onely by hearsay . lastly , the same apostle warneth the elders of ●phesus , that they attend & take heed to the whole flock , in which they were made bishops . but it cannot be , that he should ministerially , as he ought , feed the whole church , whose voice the greatest part thereof never so much as once heareth . to lead , or receav a she●p now and then into the sheepfould , to confirm one that is weak , or correct one that strayeth , and that apart from the flock , is in no wise to feed the whole flock , as the apostle requireth . and that this point may be made the more plain , let us discend unto some such particulars , as in which the elders office seemeth specially to consist . and they are , the admitting of members into the church , upon profession of faith made , and the reproving and censuring of obstinate offenders , whether sinning publiquely , or privately with scandall . as we willingly leave the exequut on , and administration of these things to the elders alone in the setled , and well ordered state of the church , so do we deny plainly , that they are , or can be rightly , and orderly done , but with the peoples privat●e and consent . for the first , christ the lord gave in charge to his apostles to preach in his name remission of sins , and therewith life eternall : and that such iewes , or gentiles , as should beleiv , and repent , viz. professe holily faith and repentance , ( for to judg of the heart is gods prerogative ) they should receav into the fellowship of the church , and baptize . and that these all , and everie of them were publiquely , and in the face of the congregation to be administred , the acts of the apostles do plent●ously make known . and if baptism , the consequent of the confession of faith , in them baptized , and the badg of our consociation with christ and his church , be to be celebrated publiquely , why is not the profession of saith proportionably ( although by the formerly baptized through a kinde of unorderly anticipation ) to be made publiquely also , and therewithall the consociation ecclesiasticall , as the former ? the covenant privately made , and the s●al publiquely annexed are disproportionate . i further add , that since persons admitted into the church , are by the whole bodie , if not of enemies , at least of strangers become and are to be reputed b●ethren ●n christ most nearly joyned , and they with whom , they are to call upon one common father publiquely to participate of one holy bread , and with whom they are to have all things , even bodily goods after a sort common , as everie one hath need , it seemeth most equall , that not onely the presbyters ( the churches servants under christ ) but the whole commonaltie also should take knowledg in their persons , both of their holy profession of faith , and voluntarie submission made as unto christ himself , so to his most holy institutions in his church . to come to the second head . and 1. those who sin , that is , with publique scandall , rebuke publiquely , sayth the apostle , that others also may fear . and if the elders themselvs , of whom he speaketh , for whose credit the greatest care is to be taken much more any other , as beza rightly observeth . and that not for this cause alone , that when the punishment comes to one , the fear might reach unto many , which yet wise men in all publique exequutions would haue carefully provided for , but also that both he that so sinneth may be the more ashamed , and others both within , and without may withall take knowledg , how litle indulgent the church is to her own dearest ones in their enormous sins . 2. with this also it well conforteth , that christ the onely doctour of his church would haue not onely sins scandalous committed in publique , publiquely reproved , and before the multitude , but even those which are private , obstinately persisted in , when he saith , tell the church , &c. i am not ignorant how diversly divers men do interpret these words : whilst some by the church do understand the civill come of the magistrate ; others the hierarchicall bishop , with his officials ; others the senate of elders excluding the people . and thus whilst these strive for the power , and name withall of the church amongst themselvs , the church indeed , and which christ the lord meaneth is well nigh stripped both of power , and name . the first of these three interpretations i will not trouble my self with ; as being almost of all , and that worthily expleded , and rejected ; and aboundantly refuted by divers learned men : the two latter are to be aslau●t●d with almost the same weapons . the former of these two , though it be in it self the more different from christs meaning , yet comes it in this circumstance now in consideration , the nearer the truth in our judgment , considered in its exequution : since neither the bishops , nor their officials , chauncelours , commisaries , or other court-keepers do exclude the people from their consistories , and courts : but to offer themselvs in their publique judgments , and censures to the ve●w of all , who please to be present thereat . and i think 〈…〉 of either amongst gentiles or iewes , or christians ( be it spoken without offence ) before this last age , that publique judgments and other acts of publique nature , as these are , should be privately exercised , and without the peoples privitie . it was not so in israel of ould , where by gods appointment the elders were to sit , and judg in the gates of the cittie : nor in the synagogues themselvs , from which manie are of minde , how truly i will not say , that the christian eldership was derived , after the roman tyrannie had confined into them the iewes civill conventions , and judgments ; nor in the primative church , no not in some ages after the apostles , as might easily be proved out of tertullian , cyptian , and others , if i would trie the matter in that court : but it is much more safe , as austin saith , to walke by the divine scriptures . and first the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 church , originally greek , answering to the hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doth primarily , and properly signifie a convention of citizens called from their houses by the publ●que c●yer , either to hear some publique sentence or charge given : but translated to religious use , denoteth an assemblie of persons called out of the state of corrupt nature into that of supernaturall grace , by the publishing of the gospell . now the elders , or presbyters ( as such ) are , and so are said to be , called , to wit , to their office of eldership , but called out they are not , being themselvs to call out the church , and unto it to perform the cryers office . neither do i think that the name ecclesia , church , hath been used by any greek author , before the apostles times , or in their daies , or in the age after them for the assemblie of sole governers in the act of their government , or indeed before the same governers had seazed into their own , & onely hands the churches both name and power . but you will say , as learned men use to do , that these elders susteyn the person of the whole multitude , and supplie their room , for the avoiding of confusion ; and so are ●ightly , as commonly called the church representative . i answer . first , no godly , no nor reasonable man will affirm , that this representation is to be extended to all the acts of religion , or indeed to others , then these , which are exercised in the governing of the church . what is it then ? the elders in ruling , and governing the church must represent the people , and ocupie their place . it should seem then , that it appe●teyns unto the people , unto the people primarily , and originally ( under christ ) to rule and govern the church , that is , themselvs . but who will so say of a government not personall , but publique , and instituted , as the churches is ? 2. if the elders in their consistorie represent the church , then whatsoever they either decree , or do agreeing to the word of god whether respecting faith or manners , that also the church decreeth and doth , though absent , though ignorant both what the thing is , which is done , and upon what grounds it is done by the elders : this being the nature of representations , that what the representing doth within the bounds of his commission , that the represented doth primarily , and much more , as but using the other for his instrument . now how dissonant this is to true faith and pietie , how consonant unto the papists implicit faith , no man can be ignorant : and i had raither wise men should consider , then i aggravate . 3. the constant , and universall practise of the apostles & apostolick churches do quite crosse this consistorian course . the apostle paul , well acquainted with the meaning of christ , doth 1 cor. 5. so reduce into practise , the rule and prescript of his maister matth. 18. or to use the words of the bishop of chester , there commaunds to bring into practise this power , in the name of christ , with his spirit , as he seems to leav no place for doubting to him , who with diligence , and without prejudice , will compare together these two places , what the lord meaneth , when he saith , tell the church , this our apostle doth in that place reprove not the elders or governers alone , but with them also the whole commonaltie and bodie , for tolerating the incestuous person amongst them . which therefore accordingly , as his authoritie apostolicall , and care for all the churches d●d require , he admonisheth , and directeth , that as mindefull both of the sinners repentance , and salvation , and therewith of their own puritie , they would exclude , by due order , that wicked man from their holy fellowship . and that by these words , ( when ye are come together ) the whole church is to be understood , manie , but heavie freinds to the peoples libertie , iesuites , p●clatists , and others do graunt . but we will annex certain reasons for the further clearing of the thing . 1. they among whom the fornicatour was , who were puffed up , when they should have sorrowed , and out of the middest of whom , he was to be put , who had done that thing ; they were to be gathered together in one , and to judg and excommunicate that incestuous person . but the fornicatour was not amongst the elders alone , neither were they alone puffed up when they should have sorrowed , neither was that wicked man to be taken out of the midst of them , and still left in the midst of the people ; and therefore not to be judged by them alone , but by the church with them , though governed by them . 2. it did not of ould apperteyn onely to the levites and elders in israel , to purge out of their houses the materiall leven , but to everie father of familie also : so by proportion to the whole church now to purge out the leven spirituall there spoken of : which also could not leven the whole lump , or church , in the apostles meaning , except it had concerned the whole church to purge it out . 3. the apostle wrote not to the elders onely , but with them to the whole bodie , not to be commingled with fornicators , covet●us persons , or the like , called brethren : he therefore admonisheth them , as the other , to cast their stone at the incestuous man , for the taking him away from the lords people . manie more arguments , and the same verie clear , might be drawn to this end , out of the text it self ; but for brevitie sake i will omit them , and annex this onely one which followeth , from the second chapter of the second epistle . the same apostle writing to these same corinthians about the same incestuous person , but now penitent , as before delinquent , seriously exhorts them , that look what severitie they had formerly shewed in censuring him for his sin , the like compassion they would now shew , in ●eceaving him again upon his repentance : therein plainly insinuateing , that this busines was not in the hands of the elders alone , except we will say , that they alone were made sad by the apostles reproof , that they alone by their studie , defence , indignation , zeal , &c. testified , that they were pure in the thing , and except it belonged to them alone to pardon , and comfort the repentant sinner , and to confirm their love unto him . and whereas some would inclose this whole power within the apostles circuit ; as if he alone , bishop-like , had passed sentence judicia●ie upon the offender , and onely committed the declaration , and publication of it in the church , to some his substitute , i deem it not lost labour breifly to ●hew how erroneous this opinion is of externall monarchicall government , yea power also , which is more , in the church of christ. and , first , one alone , how great soever , cannot suffice to make the church , or a congregation , which christ hath furnished with power of binding , and loosing math. 18 , 17 , 18. both reason , and scripture teaching , that for an assembly , and congregation at least two or three are required . ver . 19. the church ( which name signifies a multitude , designeing by a new trope , one alone singular person , as saith d. whitakers against stapleton , going about to prove that the name of the church belongs to the pastours , or byshops , or pope alone . 2. it is expresly affirmed 2 cor. 2 , 6. that the incestuous person was censured by many : which many or more , the apostle opposeth to himself alone , as appeareth by the context ; and not to all , as some erroneously think . 3. the apostle plainly , and sharply reproveth the corinthians for that before his writing they had not voyded that sinfull man , their holy fellowship , and so prevented the reporte by which such a crime , and the same unpunished came to his ears . this their power then the man of god doth not seaze into his own hands as forfeyt by their default in not using it , but vehemently ( and as became a faithfull minister ) exhorts and admonist●es them to use it , as they ought in the judging , purging out , and taking from among themselvs that wicked man , and so any other within , or called a brother , sinning in the like manner . 4. if the apostle paul being absent from corinth had excommunicated this sinner , then had he judicially condemned , and judged a man unaccused , unconvicted , and unreproved ( at least face to face , and before his judg ) : then which what more unjust can be imagined of , or ascribed unto the holy apostle ? i conclude therefore with peter martyr , the apostle , as great as he was , doth not so far usurp to himself power , as that he one , and alone by himself should excommunicate : which yet the pope , and ma●y bishops ( both romish and english ) dare do : injudging he goes before others , as it is meet the cheif in the church should do , that so the lesse skilfull multitude might be directed in judging by their voting before them . thus much of this place . the next followeth , which is acts 1 , when another was to succeed in the room of iudas the traytour , not peter alone , or the apostles with him , but ( that the ordination might be just and lawfull , being made with the knowledg of the people assistent , and examined by the verdit , and judgment of all ) the multitude of the disciples together did substitute two , whom they deemed most excellent , that of them the lord , who knew the hearts of all men , might take unto himself the man , which he knew most fit . that which belonged unto god , namely , to designe an apostle immediately , was left unto him : the disciples also in this work , rete●●ing what might be their libertie : which calvin notes upon this place , to have been a kinde of middle temper . the third place followeth , which is act. 6. handling the choice of deacons , and that by the same church in ierusalem , not now small , as before , but ( which i wish may be marked to stop the passage , which some think lyes open for escape through smaller assemblies ) now become great , and populous . in this busines the apostles informe the church what kinde of men they ought to chuse : the multitude chuseth whom they judg fit , and meet accordingly ; and the same present to the apostles : upon whom so chosen by the people , the said apostles impose hands as a solemn symbole of their consecration , joyning therewith common prayer . now if the deacons onely betrusted with the churches monie were not to be made but by the peoples suffrage , and election , much lesse pastors & elders , unto whose fidelitie under christ the same church doth commit the incomparable treasure of their souls . to the same purpose ( in regarde of the matter in hand ) serveth that , which we read act. 14 , 23. where paul and barnabas do ordeyn elders in everie church , by suffrages ( not their own as some fancie , unto whom to lift up , & to lay on hands is all one ) but the peoples ; or by the lifting up of hands , by which signe , the grecians , as appears in demosthenes , and others , the peoples vote or voyce-giving in their popular assemblies was wonte to be made . i ad ( which is especially to be observed ) that the apostles in doing their part in the ordination of elders , did what they did , as it were , by the way : staying onely , most like , two or three daies in a place : so as they could not possibly by their own experience take sufficient knowledg , what persons in the church were apt to teach or govern : who able to exhort with sound doctrine , & to convince the gainsayers : how unblamable they were , how watchfull , given to hospitalitie , temperate , &c. and with these , how mannered wives , and children they had . these things onely the bretheren which conversed with them publiquely , and privately , could sufficiently take knowledg , and experience of . vpon their electing them did the ordination conferred by the apostles , as the hands of the church , depend . by election the persons elected have right to their offices ; into the actuall possession whereof they are solemnly admitted by ordination . this troup of proofes , that known , and notable place act. 15. shall shut up : in which we have the peoples libertie in the churches both of antioch , and ierusalem plentifully confirmed and commended by apostolick practise to ensueing churches , and times . and first , it is evident , that in the church of antioch together with the elders ( which it appears then it had act. 14 , 21 , 23. ) the brethren were admitted into the fellowship of the busines , and disquisition made about circumcision : paul & barnabas with the rest of the delegates then sent being brought on their journey by the church . ver . 3. the letters also being written back from ierusalem to the brethren which were at antioch , ver . 23. and which is specially to be noted , then , and not before , delivered when the multitude were come together . vers . 30. so in the church at ierusalem the messengers from antioch were receaved not onely of the apostles and elders , but of the church with them , vers . 4. and as the question was propounded so was it , discussed before the whole church by the apostles , & elders comming together to look unto that busines . ver . 6. yet not so as the brethren were wholly bound to silence , seeing that ver . 11. the whole multitude is said to have held their peace , that is , to have yeilded to peters speach , and reasons . lastly , as silas and iudas were sent with paul and barnabas , by the apostles , and elders with the whole church unto antioch , vers . 22. so were the letters written back in the name of them all to the brethren at antioch . ver . 23. and although the decrees to be observed by the churches of the gentiles , ( whereof no one , excepting antioch , had any delegates present ) which were also part of the word of god , and holy canon , could come from none other then the apostles , immediately inspired by the h. ghost , they notwithstanding in the publishing of the same , did not disdam the consenting suffrage of the brethren of that particular church of ierusalem , where the assembly was . and surely , if it ever did , or could apperteyn to any church officers or governers whatsoever to represent the church-assemblies , in elections , censures , and other ecclesiasticall judgments , and occurrences ; then without doubt unto the apostles in an eminent , and peculiar manner ( especially living in that rude , and childish state of the church ) considering both how superlative their office was , and how admirable their gifts , and endowments of the holy ghost , together with their incomparable both pietie , & prudence : by which they were both most able , and willing to promote the christian faith in holynes . and although this constant , and uniform both practise , and institution of the apostles unto divers ( politick persons , swelling with pride of fleshly reason , dispising apostolicall simplicitie , and who , as ●●eneus speaks , would be rectifiers of the apostles , seem worthie of light regard , yet to us , who beleiv with theodoret , that we ought to rest in the apostolicall , and propheticall demonstrations , and who with tertullian do adore the fulnes of the scriptures , they seem of singular weight , and moment . and whilst i consider with my self in the fear of god , how it was the apostles duetie to teach the disciples of christ to observ whatsoever he commanded them ; and how the apostle paul testifieth , that even the things , which he wrote touching order , and comlynes to be observed in the church-exercises , were the commandements of the lord , as also how the same apostle clearly professeth , that he and his fellow officers were onely to be reputed as ministers and ambassadours of christ , to whom therefore in the exequution of their office it was not permitted to do , or speak the least thing , which they had not in charge from him , it is unto me a matter of great scruple , and conscience , to depart one hair-breadth ( extraordinarie accidents ever excepted ) from their practise , & institution , in any thing truely ecclesiasticall , though never so small in it self : whatsoever , by whomsoever , and with what colour soever is invented , and imposed , touching the government of the church which is the house and tabernacle of the living god. and a partner in this faith i do hope to live , and die , and to appear before iesus christ , with bouldnes in that great and fearfull day of his coming . i add , that seeing the christian congregation as the spouse of christ , free , and ingenuous , hath the church officers whosoever , as christ iesus her housbands , so also her servants for iesus sake , whom under christ she trusteth with her eternall salvation , and unto whom for their labour shee oweth wages for releif and maintenance ; considering also how much it makes both to whet on the diligence of the ministers , and to inforce the diligence of the people , whilst these on the one side consider with themselvs , how they have them set over them , whom above others themselvs have liked , and made choice of ; and they on the other side , that they are set over those by whom they before others were made choice of , and elected : that which cyprian hath , seemeth most equall , and of institution morall , and unchangeable , that the commonaltie fearing god & keeping his commaundements , should have the speciall hand either in chusing of worthie preists , or ministers , or of rejecting the unworthie : which also , saith he , we see to be founded upon divine authoritie . the same is to be held of excommunication . seeing that it behooveth the christian multitude to avoide the fellowship of the excommunicated not onely in the course of religion , but even in common , and familiar conversation ( the rights of nature , familie , and common wealth ever kept inviolated ) : and that whom yesterday i was to repute a brother near , and dear in christ , to morrow i must hould as an heathen , and publican , and as , for the destruction of the flesh , delivered to sathan : who is so unequall a judg , as not to think it a most equall thing , that the multitude should clearly , and undoubtedly take knowledg both of the heynousnes of the crime , and incorrigeable contumacie of the person , after the use of all means , and remedies for reclayming him . this if it be not done , then doth not the church herein live by her own , but by her officers faith ; neither are her governers to be reputed as servants , but lords unto her ; neither do they exercise their office popular●lie in the church as they ought , but tyrannicallie , as they ought not , by chrisostoms verdit . his words are these . he who bears himself upon an externall and worldly power , because he rules legally , and that men must of necessitie obey him , doth oft times , and that not without cause , exercise authoritie against the will , and wel-liking of his subiects ? but on the other side , he who will be over those , who voluntarily submit unto him , and can him thank , and yet will presume to do things as himself liketh , & as if he were to give account to none other thereof , that man raither exerciseth his author●tie tyrannically then popularly . the lord god put it into the hearts of those who bear greatest sway in the reformed churches , to indeavour the furnishing of the same with such elders , as may both fully , and constantly , and popularly , discharge their place , for the peace of their own consc●ences before god , the edification of the churches over which they are set , as also for the abateing , if not abolishing , of that contempt in which prelat●sts , and supercilious persons use to hould these lay-elders , as they call them . but now lest any should take occasion , either by the things here spoken by us , or els where of us , to conceave , that we either exercise amongst our selvs , or would thrust upon others , any popular , or democraticall church-government ; may it please the christian reader to make estimate of both our judgment , and practise in this point , according to these three declarations following . first , we beleev , that the externall church-government under christ the onely mediatour , and monarch thereof is plainly aristocraticall , and to be administred by some certain choice men , although the state , which manie unskilfully confound with the government , be after a sort popular , and democraticall . by this it apperteyns to the people freely to vote in elections and judgments of the church : in respect of the other we make account , it behoves the elders to govern the people even in their voting in just libertie , given by christ whatsoever . let the elders publiquely propound , and order all things in the church , & so give their sentence on them ; let them reprove them that sin , convince the gain-sayers , comfort the repentant , and so administer all things according to the prescript of gods word : let the people of faith , give their assent to their elders holy and lawfull administration : that so the ecclesiasticall elections , and censures may be ratified , and put into solemn exequution by the elders , eyther in the ordination of officers after election , or excommunication of offenders after obstinacie in sin . 2. we doubt not but that the elders both lawfully may , and necessarily ought , and that by vertue of their office , to meet apart at times from the bodie of the church , to deliberate of such things as concern her welfare , as for the preventing of things unnecessarie , so for the preparing ( according to just order ) of things necessarie , so as publiquely , and before the people , they may be prosequuted with most conveniencie , and least trouble that may be . 3. by the people whose libertie , and right in voteing we thus avow , and stand for ; in matters truly publique and ecclesiasticall , we do not understand ( as it hath pleased some contumeliously to upbraid us ) women , and children ; but onely men , and them grown , and of discretion : making account , that as children by their nonage , so women by their sex are debarred of the use of authoritie in the church . chap. v. of holy-dayes . it seemeth not without all leven of superstition , that the duch reformed churches do observ certain dayes consecrated as holy to the nativity , resurrection , and ascention of christ , and the same also ( as it commonly comes to passe where humain devices are reared up by the side of divine institutions ) much more holy then the lords day , by him himselfe appoynted . and for this , first we are taught by moses , thus speaking unto the people of israel in the name of the lord. verily my sabbaths ye shall keep for it is a signe between me and you thoroughout your generations that ye may know that i am the lord that doth sanctifie you , that it appertayns unto god alone ( and to no man , or angel ) as to sanctifie whether person , or thing , so to institute the signes , or means of sanctification , of which number holy dayes are . i ad , if the lord as lehovah , and the god of his people is●ael , and supream lawgiver , do ordeyn the sanctification of a day in the decalogue , how far should gods servants be , eyther magistrates from takeing this honour of god unto themselves by commaunding a holy day ; or subjects by observing it to give the same unto any other save god alone ? 2. it was not the least part of israels defection , first in the wildernes , afterwards under ieroboam ; that they ordeyned a ●east to ichovah , whom they represented to themselvs by the goulden calvs which they had made . 3. seeing that every first day of the weeke ( called by iohn the lords day ) is consecrated by christ himself and his apostles to the memoriall of christs resurrection , and gods solemn worship ; it seems too much for anie mortall man to appoint , or make an anniversarie memoriall ( and the same most solemn and sacred ) of the same resurrection , or so to observe it . lastly , that you may see it was a man , from whom this device came , and so erred , as one saith ( not to meddle with the uncertaintie either of the day of the month , or month of the yeare in which christ was born , as it is most certain on the contrarie that , this 25 of december cannot be the time , what good reason ( i would know ) can be rendred , why a day should be consecrated rather to the birth , circumcision , and ascension of christ , then to his death , seeing that the scriptures every where do ascribe our redemption and salvation to his death , and passion in speciall manner ? chap. vi. of the celebration of mariage by the pastours of the church . sixtly , and lastly , we cannot assent to the receaved opinion and practise answerable in the reformed churches , by which the pastours thereof do celebrate marriage publiquely , and by vertue of their office : because 1 the holy s●r●pture divinely inspired , that the man of god , that is the minister , may be perfitly furnished to every good work , doth no where furnish or oblige the minister to this work . 2. marriage doth properly and imediately appertein to the family , ( which is primarily framed of man , and wife ) and citties , and other politicall bodies consisting of manie familyes . secondarily , and mediately to the common wealth , and publique governers of the same : who therefore weighing their office , and what concerneth them doe accordingly , in the low countries , comelily , and in good order●●y that knott of marriage amongst such theire subjects , as require it at their hands . neither did god as a minister joyn in marriage our first parents ( as some would make him ) but as their common father by right of creation , and the chief maister of the marriage : neither ought the pastours office to be streched to anie other acts then those of religion , and such as are peculiar to christians : amongst which marriage ( common to gentiles as well , as to them ) hath no place . lastly , considering how popish superstitition hath so far prevailed , that marriage in the romish church hath gott a room amongst the sacraments , truly , and properly so called , and by christ the lord instituted ; the celebration , and consecration whereof the patrons , and consorts of that superstition will have so tyed to the priests fingers , that , by the decree of evaristus the first , they account the marriage no better then incestuous , which the priest consecrates not ; it the more concerns the reverend brethren , and pastours of the reformed churches to see unto it , that by their practise they neither doe , nor seem to advantage this popish errour . and these are the points of our difference frō the belgick churches : which are nei●her so small ; as that they deserv to be neglected , especially of them unto whom nothing seemeth small ; which proceeds from the gracious either mouth or spirit of the lord iesus : nor yet so great , as to dissolv the bond of brotherly charitie , and communion . if any now shal object , that there are yet other things beside these , in which we consort not so well with them , nor they with us ; as for example , 1. in the sanctification of the lords day , in which we seem even superstitiously rigid . 2. in a certain popular exercise of prophesi amongst us : 3. in our dislike of the publique temples , and sundry other indifferent things , as they are termed ; besides , that we are accused by some for not having in due estimation the magistrates authoritie in matters of religion ; i do answere , and first , that in the two first of these , the same churches do not differ from us in judgment , but in practise : as appears evidently by the harmonie of the belgick synods lately published by s. r. of the former of those two , the author of the same book , testifieth in his preface to the reader , that the synod held at middleborough in zeland , 1581. did supplicate unto the magistrate , that by his authoritie he would decree the sanctification of the lords day , abolishing the manifould abuses thereof . that sanctification then of the lords day which the reformed churches do endeavour unto , and desire to have fortified by the magistrates authoritie , that we ( considering it as immediately imposed by christ upon his churches ) by the grace of god , labour to perform , being thereunto induced by these , amongst other reasons . chap. vii . of the sanctification of the lords day . first the sanctification of the sabboth is a part of the decalogue , or morall law , written in tables of stone by the finger of god : of which christ our lord pronounceth , that no one ●o●e , or title shall passe away . now if it be unpossible for one title of the law to be dissolved , much more for a whole word , or commandement , and one of ten ; by which it should come to passe , that christians now were not to count of ten commandements of the moral law , but of nyne onely . if reply be made that the fourth commandement is so ceremoniall , that notwithstanding it hath this morall in it , that some tyme be assigned , and taken for the publique ministerie , and exercises of religion , i answer : 1. that the same may be said in generall , of the mosaicall ceremonies whatsoever : all , and everie one whereof affoardeth something morall . for instance , the mosaicall temple , or tabernacle had this morall in it , and perteyning to us , as well as to the israelites , that it was a fit and convenient place for the church assembly . is therefore the precept for the tabernacle as well morall , as that for the sabboth ? is it alike a part of the decalogue , and morall law ? is it alike one of the ten commandements ? 2. if the morall sanctification of the sabboth stand in this , that sometime be assigned to the publique ministerie , then were the israelites , especially the preists , and levites , bound to an everie day sabboth and sanctification morall , being bound everie day to offer in the tabernacle , and temple , two young lambs , the one at morning , the other at evening for a daylie sacrifice . 3. if the second precept of the decalogue do in the affirmative part injoyn all outward instituted worship of god ; then also by consequence it requi●es some set time ( as a naturall circumstance absolutely necessarie to everie finite action ) in which the same worship is to be performed . in va●n then is the fourth commandement , and to no purpose , if it injoyn nothing at all , but that which was injoyned before , namely in the second . 4. the verie essence of the fourth commaundment consists in this , that a day of seaven be kept holy , that is separated from common use , and consecrated to god , in wh●ch as in a holy day the works of divine worship , and such as serve for the spirituall man ought to be exercised , as appears plainly by the reason taken from gods example , upon which the commandement is founded . take this away , and the life of the precept seemeth to suffer violence . the truly godly take some tyme for the exercises of gods worship not onely publique , and ecclesiasticall , but private also , and domesticall : yea in their closets , as christ teacheth . yet are not these either times , or places , in which such things are done , then others ar● ▪ eyther therefore a day in it self must be holy , by divine institution , or the decalogue is may●ed in the fourth commandement . but you will doubtlesse object the change made from the last daie , to the first day of the week . i answer , 1. that change is mee●ly circumstantiall , & in which also the essence of the precept i● not abolished , but established . as for example . god promised unto children duly honouring their parents a long life in that land ( to wit of canaan , then to be possessed by his people ) which the lord thy god gave unto them . the same promise by the apostles testimonie still stands good to obedient children , though out of canaan , and in another land , so doth the same precept stand in force for the sanctification of the sabboth , though removed to another of the seven dayes by the lords hand . 2. it is evident that this alteration was made both upon weightie ground , and warrantable authoritie . the ground is christ our saviours resurrection from the dead : in wh●ch mans new creation ( at least in respect of christ working the same in the state of humiliation for that ●nd undertaken ) was perfeited : a new kinde of kingdome of god , after a sort established : and , as the scriptures speak , all things made new . and why not also a new sabboth after a sort ? in which yet notwithstanding the former ( as ●he creation also by christ● is not so properly abolished , as perfited . the authoritie upon which this change lea●eth , is no lesse then of christ himself : who , first , by word of mouth for the fortie dayes after his resurrection , taught the disciples the things , which apperteyned to the kingdom of god , that is , as calvin saith , whatsoever things they published either by word or writing afterward . 2. by his example , or fact , setting himself in the middest of the same his apostles , the first day of the week , and as iunius saith , everie eigth day , till his ascension into heaven : & therein not onely blessing them with his bodily , but much more , with his spirituall , and that speciall presence . 3. by his spirit speaking in his apostles , whose office it was to teach his disciples to observ what things soever he had commanded them , and to declare unto them the whole counsail of god : who also in their whole ministration were to be reputed none other then the ministers of christ , and lastly whose both writing ( & preachings accordingly ) even about order and comlines to be kept in the church exercises were the commandements of the lord iesus . agreable hereunto it was , that the apostle paul coming to troa● , and there with his companie abid●ng seven dayes , he did not till the first day of the week ( which yet was the last of the seven ) call together the a●sciples to eat bread , that is to communicate in the lords supper . hereupon also it was , that the same apostle ordeyned , that on everie first day of the week , as on a day sanctified for the holie assemblies , and ●ttest for most effectuall provocations to the supplying of the necessities of the poore saints , everie one of the richer sort , should lay something apart , as god had blessed him , for the releif of the churches in syria , at that tyme oppressed with great penurie , and want . lastly upon none other ground but this , was this day , by iohn the apostle , named expresly the lords day , as being consecrated to the resurrection and service of the lord iesus : for which end also it was kept in the primitive churches , as appeareth by most ancient and authentick writers . neyther did pathmos more distinctly denote a certain and known iland , and iohn a certain and known person , then did the lords day a day certain , and known especially unto christians , unto whom the apostle wrote . whereunto also agreeth that of austin , this lords day is therefore so called , because on that day the lord rose again , or that by the verie name i● might teach us , how it ought to be consecrated to the lord. the second reason is , because the sanctification of the sabboth ( the circumstantiall change notwithstanding ) doth as well belong to us in our times , as to the israelites in theirs ; whether we respect the reason of the commandement , or the end . the reason is taken from the example of god himself , who rested the seventh day from the works of creation . the ends are , 1 , that we framing our selvs to gods example , after six daies spent in servile works , or works of acquisition , might rest the seaventh . 2. that we might recount with our selvs , not onely with thankfull , but also composed hearts , as the creation of man , and of all other things for mans good , so also his re-creation , & renovation clearly shineing in the resurrection of christ from the dead . 3. that sequest●ing our hearts , tongues , and hands from everie servile work ( so far as humain infirmitie will bea● ) we might cons●crate unto god a certain and set time , & day , for the works of pietie towards him , and of charitie towards men . and albeit the state of israell of ould compared with ours , was childish , and elementa●ie , and so needed the more helps both for restraint , and supportance ; yet have not we atteyned to such manlike perfection , as that we need none at all in this kinde . and ( not to meddle with the table of christians , whose ave●s●es from the due sanctification of this day gives no obscure testamonie , that the same is sacred , & of god , from which their prophane conversation so much abhorreth ) how behooffull , and necessarie it is for the true worshippers of god , that for some certain , and whole day they should emptie , and disburden their hearts of their earthly cares ( though in themselves lawfull ) that so they might wholy consecrate themselvs to god , publiquely in his house , and privately in their own ; partly by preparing themselvs , and theirs for the publique worship , and ministrie , & partly by calling to minde in themselvs , and instructing , and examining of those which belong unto them , as they ought , touching the things which they have publiquely heard ; as also in m●ditateing of the most glorious works of gods hands , the verie experience of everie godly , and devout man may teach him . he that sels himself to the holy , and severe observation of this the lords sabboth , turning away his foot from the sabboth , not to do that wherin he delighteth , on the lords holy day , & calling the sabboth a delight , the holy of the lord , & honourable and shall honour him , not doing hi● own wayes , nor performing his own pleasure , or speaking his own words ; then shall he delight himself in the lord , and he will cause him to ●ide upon the high places of the earth , and feed him with the heritage of iacob his father , because the mouth of the lord hath spoken it : where as on the contrarie , no man doth or can neglect the same without apparent prejudice and wrong to pietie , and goodnes both in himself , and those under him . to let passe other things , how easily doth this thought steal into the heart not thoroughly perswaded of the holynes of this day ? what now ! there is in the day no holynes by gods appointment , save onely , as in it , the publique sermons of the church with prayer , and thanksgiving are to be frequented , and performed : for me to be present at everie sermon , speciallie made in the cittie , both on the lords day , and everie other day of the week , my speciall calling , and worldly affairs will not permit : besides , it were verie commodious for me on this lords day , to make an end of such or such a work which i have in hand , to deal in such a busines , to undertake such a journey ; and what should hinder me from so doing ? but provided alwaies , upon this condition , that look what this day wants , the morrow , or next day shall plentifully supply : or , if it so fall out , thorough mine importunate bu●sines , that i bee something more behinde this week in these things , i will certainly , and at the furthest , the next week be so much the more frequent in them , and so make god , and my soul amends . and why ( as is the guise of ill debters ) will not men desire , and take longer day , even to months , and years also ? considering how on the one side the heart of man is dayly faster taken & held by the bait of worldly profit , and pleasure ; and on the other , lesse affectioned to gods holy word , by the lesse frequent hearing of it . and hence , alasse , cometh it to passe , that true pietie languisheth so much in the most , and with it such other christian vertues as use to accompanie it . hence flow those tears of sorrow , and lamenting , which no true christian casting his eyes upon the reformed churches can forbear . the third reason is taken from that apostolicall determination ( wrested by many to a contrarie meaning ) coloss. 2 , 16 , 17. let no man therefore judg you in meat , or drink , or in respect of a feast or new moone , or sabbaths ; which are the shadow of good things to come , but the bodie is christ. whence it appeareth more then plainly , that onely those sabboths are abolished by christs comeing in the flesh , which were types and figures of christ to come , of which sort as there were not a few instituted of god by moses , so doth this apostle here , and elswhere sufficiently declare the abrogateing , and abolishing of the same by christ. but that the sabboth , of which we now speak comes in that reckoning we plainly deny . for , 1. in its primary institution gen. 2. there can nothing be found not wholy morall . let a man haveing many e●es as argus , search the same with a candle , he seekes ( as we say ) a knot in a bul●ush , if he think to find in it any either shadow of christ , or shadow of shadow . if any shall except , that god by moses did enjoyn unto the israelites the sanctification of this day , that it might be a signe between him , and israel throughout their generations , that they might know , that he is the lord that doth sanctifie them , i do answer , first , in the words of arminius , that the reason upon which god did afterwards commend unto his people , the sanctification of the sabboth because it was a signe between god and his people , that it was iehovah that sanctified them , may be applyed to the times of the new testament , & further with them also the sabboths sanctification . 2. admit that this use were ceremoniall , and typicall in the fourth commandement , yet were there no force in the consequence from one end & use typicall , and ceremoniall , superinduced , and brought in upon the precept , to prove the precept it self ceremoniall , and typicall in the institution . by the same reason it may be affirmed , that both the covenant of god made with abraham , i will be thy god , and the god of thy seed , as also the right of the first born , for a double port on , & manie things more of like consideration , were merely ceremoniall , and typicall , seeing that even unto them also , were annexed , and that by gods appointment , divers typicall , and temporall respects : of which notwithstanding none soundly minded will deny , that the one is euangelicall , and the other naturall . 3. considering that the observation of this sabboth was either injoyned ( as i perswade my self it was from gen. 2 , 1 , 2 , 3. & exod. 16 , 26 , 30. ) to adam , in innocency and not yet needing christ ; or at least , that the reason of the institution did fit the state of innocencie as well , as it did the israelites afterward i doe undoubtedly conclude , that the same sabboth in the primarie , and essentiall institution thereof is not to come upon their file , which as the shadows of future things had christ for the body . fourthly , i argue from that premonition of christ math. 24 , 20. pray that your flight be not in winter nor on the sabboth . i am not ignorant how the most divines both ancient , and later do understand this sermon ( as chrisostom saith ) as made of the iewes ; seeing that , as the same authour hath it , neither the apostles did observ the sabboth day , neither yet were they in iudea when these things were done of the romans : many of them having departed this life , and the rest ( if anie survived ) having bestowed themselvs in other places . but ( with due reverence to them all be it spoken ) it seemeth by the text to be otherwise . for 1. christ made not this sermon to the iewes , as iewes , but to his disciples , and those alone , and the same comming unto him secretly to be taught by him : whom he forewarned in the same place how that first at the hands of the iewes in iudea , and after , of the gentiles every where , they should be evill intreated for his names sake . v. 3 , 4 , 9. 25 , 26. with luke 21. 12. secondly , our saviour in saying pray ye , makes it plain , that that he speaks of them , and their associates unto whom he speakes , to wit , christians . lastly how could it be that christ , who by his death ( now drawing so neare as that there was but a step unto it ) was to abrogate , and abolish all iewish ceremonies , and shadowes , should to carefully provide for the so religious observation of a shadowish , and ceremoniall sabboth : and that not for a day or two , but for so many yeares after the same his death ; could anie thing more weightie be spoken by christ , or which could more deeply imprint in the hearts of men a religious regard of the sabboth , then that it behooved them to obte●n by prayer at gods hands , that they might not be const●eined unto that thing although permitted them of god in case of urgent necessitie , which might violate and interrupt the publique , and solemn sanctification thereof ; it is true then which chrisostome saith , that the apostles did not observ the sabboth , to wit , iewish : but the christian sabboth , o● lords day they did undoubtedly celebrate . the fift and last reason may be fetcht from the verie gentiles themselvs , who directed by the glimps of the light of nature , how darkly soever shineing in them , had their holy daies , and some of the same such , as in which not so much as the pleading , and determining of suites were admitted . it seemeth naturall , that some day , and morall that some day certain , and distinct , be sacred unto god : and the same ( as iunius saith ) every seaventh day ) : in which men forbearing all servile works , may consecrate , and give themselvs to god in the duties of pietie , and of charitie to men . which with what hinderance unto the one , and other is everie where neglected , can scarse either be uttered , or conceaved . for what tra●va●l if upon the overslipping of the most seasonable seed-time , a slender harvest follow ; or that ( the market day being neglected ) penu●ie of provision should be found in the family ; we christ an● have the lords day by the lord christ assigned us for the exercises of pietie , and mercie , in which he offers , and exhibits h●rself in the fruits of his gracious presence in a singular manner to be seen , and injoyed of his , religiously observing the same . let us at no hand ( as alike unmindfull of gods ordinance and mans infirmitie suffer ) the fruit of such a benefit to dy in our hands : but let us accordingly acknowledg the same in thought , word , and work , to his honour , and our own good . chap. viii . of the exercise of prophecie . there are they ( whose names i forbear , for their credits sake ) who have not spared , and that in their publique writings , to lay to our charge , that we will needs have all , and everie member of the church a prophet , and to prophesie publiquely . with what mindes they let loose their tongues to utter these , and manie mo most false and absurde vituperies against us , we leav it to god to judg , who knoweth : with what conscience , and desert of credit therein , unto thee ( christian reader ) into whose hands this our apologie shall come . we learn from the apostle paul 1 cor. 14 , 3. that he who prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification , exhortation , & comfort : which to perform conveniently , and as becomes the church-assemblie , we make account comes within the compasse but of a few of the multitude ; happily two or three in each of our churches , considering their weak , and depressed estate . touching prophesie then we think the verie same , that the synode held at embden 1571 hath decreed in these words . 1. in all churches , whether but springing up , or grown to s●me ripenes , let the order of prophesie be observed , according to pauls institution . 2. into the fellowship of this work are to be admitted not onely the ministers , but the teachers too , as also of the elders and deacons , yea even of the multitude , which are willing to confir their gift receaved of god , to the common utilitie of the church : but so as they first be allowed by the judgment of the ministers , and as the apostle somet●mes said , we beleev , and therefore we speak , so because we beleev with the belgick churches , that this exercise is to be observed in all congregations , therefore we also observ it in ours . of this our both faith & practise , we have these amongst other speciall foundations . the first we fetch from the examples in the iewish church , where libertie both for teaching and disputing publiquely both in temple and synagogue , was freely given to all gifted accordingly , without respect had to any office . if any object , that the examples of christ , and the apostles in this case are incompetent , seeing that christ was furnished with his own , and the apostles with his authoritie ; he alledgeth that which is true in it self , but to small purpose ; considering we lay not our foundation in this , that christ and his apostles so d●d ; but in that libertie so to do , was alwaies , and in all places graunted , & sometimes offered them . this libertie they obteyned not by the authoritie of christ , which the rulers of the synagogues & temple no more acknowledged then they did christ himself : but by the order then receaved , and still continued to this day amongst the iewes , that they whom with the scriptures they call wise men , without all regard of publique office , having any word of exhortation to the people , should say on , as we have it written act. 13 , 23. whereunto ●ad , that divers of them in whom we instance were furnished with no such authoritie specially from christ. the second we take from the apostle paul 1 cor. 14 ▪ where to the full , he informeth the church at corinth of the order of that exercise , which they had formerly violated . which whole order ( according to bezaj is apparently taken , from the receaved custom in the iewish synagogues . which custom saith peter martyr ) seeing it was of ●uld both good and laudable in the synagogues of the iewes , the apostle disdeyns not to transfer it to the church of christ. of which also he tenders this reason , because it was not a legall ceremonie , but servs to the edification of the church . if this be so , then must they needs take their marks amisse , who imagine that the apostle in this place speaks of the extraordinarie gift , and exercise of prophesie . and although it be not like , that the church of corinth was , in that so plenteous effusion of the gifts of the spirit , altogether destitute of extraordinarie prophets , yet that the apostle did not in that place aime at them , may be proved by manie mo , and the same ( as i think ) firm arguments drawn from the self same text . which that i may do the more commodiously , the prudent reader must call to minde , that upon the foundation of the extraordinarie prophets , as well as of the verie apostles , the church is built ; and that that mysterie of christ , by the spirit immediately , and infalliblie inlightining their minde , was in the same manner , though not in all in the same degree , revealed to them , and the other . this so considered , 1. it seems altogether unprobable , that so manie prophets of this ranke ( although inf●riour in gifts ) should have been found in that one small congregation , as the apostle insinuates ver . 24 , 29 , 31 , that corinth had . 2. the apostles in corinth not onely behaved themselvs inordinately in the church , but withall ( as by interpreters from ver . 29 , and 32 is generally delivered were subject to errour in the verie doctrine which they propounded ; which to affirm of the extraordinarie prophets , these skilfull m●ister builders , who together with the apostles la●d the foundation , together participated the same holy spirit , seemeth not a litle to shake the foundation of christian religion . and if one of these extraordinarie prophets might 〈◊〉 , why not they all : and 〈◊〉 the prophets , why not the apostles . and ●f they might 〈◊〉 , how should it appear , that they have not cried ? and so by consequence , what either then was , o● now is the firmnes and certaintie of the christian fa●th ? 3. seeing that the apostle ver . 34 , 35 , injoyns women deep silence in this church exercise , not permitting them a all to speak ; it seems most plain that he hath no●y , nor respect at all , to these extraordinarie gifts and endowments of prophesie authorising even women furnished with them , to speak publiquely , and in mens presence , as appears in mirjam , deborah , huldah , anna , as also even in iezabel her self in regard of order , and others . lastly , the apostle ver . 36 , upbraideth those verie prophets unto whom he directeth his speach , as such , as from whom the word of god came not : but without cause , yea not without notable injurie , if they were extraordinarie prophets , that is , inspired with the holy ghost , and his immediate instruments : seeing that from these kinde of prophets , as well as from paul the apostle the word of god came , though in different degree , and measure . the third foundation of this exercise is laid in the manifould , and the same most excellent ends atteynable onely by this means . 1. that god may be glorified , whilst everie one doth administer to another the gift , which he hath receaved , as good dispensers of the ma●●ssuld grace of god. 2. that the spirit be not extinguished , that is the gift of prophesie , or teaching ; in which it may so come to passe , that some in the church , though no ministers , may excell the verie pastours themselvs . 3. that such as are to be taken into the ministerie of the church , may both become , and appear apt to teach . this seeing the apostle would have done , he would questionlesse have some order for the doing of it : which , excepting this of prophesie , we have none of apostolicall institution . 4. that the doctrine of the church may be preserved pure , from the insection of errour : which is far more easilie corrupted , when some one or two alone in the church speak all , and all the rest have deep , and perpetuall silence enjoyned them . 5. that things doubtfull arising in teaching may be cleared , things obscure opened , things 〈◊〉 convinced ; and lastly , that as by the beating together of two stones 〈◊〉 appeareth , so may the light of the truth more clearly ●hine by disputations , quest●ons , and answers modestly had , and made , and as becomes the church of saints , and worke of god. 6. for the edification of the church , and conversion of them that beleiv not : and this the raither because it apperteyneth not properly to the pasteurs , as pastours , to turn goats or wolves into sheep , but raither to 〈◊〉 the flock and sheep of christ , in which the h. ghost hath made them overseers . 7. and lastly , lest by excluding the commonaltie and multitude from church affairs , the people of god be devided , and charitie lestened , and familiaritie , and good will be extinguished between the order of ministers and people . chap. ix . of temples . to speak nothing of the office of the christian magistrate in demolishing the monuments , and snares of idolatrie ( which these temples want not , if themselvs be not such ) i account that the consideration is one of a temple , as a temple , that is , a holy place , as it is counted of the most , consecrated either to god himself , or to some saint ( made therein a false god , though being a true saint ) whose name it bears ; and which for its magnificent building , and superstitious form agrees far better to the 〈◊〉 religion pompous , and idolatrous as it is , then to the reformed , and apostolicall simplicitie . and another , and the same far divers , of a place , although in the house sometimes consecrated for such a temple , partly naturall , which is simplie necessarie to everie 〈◊〉 action ; partly civill , in which the church may well , and conveniently assemble together . the former use i deem altogether unlawfull ; the latter not so , but lawfull , provided alwaies that the opinion of holines be removed , and withall such blemishes of superstition , as wherewith things lawfull in themselvs are usually stayned . chap. x. of things indifferent . vve do so repute manie things as indifferent , or mean in themselvs and then own nature ( & as houlding a middle place as it were , between the things simplie commaunded , and the things simplie forbidden of god , as that the same things being once drawn into use , and practise , do necessarily undergoe the respect and consideration of good or evill . this the apostle teacheth 1 corinth . 14. in his so diligent warning the church of corinth , that all things be done decently , in order , and to edification . the things then thus accounted indifferent , when they once come into use in the church , do either work the exercises of religion the more comely , orderly , and edificative , and are such as without which , the same exercises cannot be performed but confusedly , uncomelily , and un●iuitfully , at least in part , or els they swarve from the apostolicall canon . with this commaundement of the apostle , yea of christ the lord , agrees the rule of the phylosophers , the accessorie fell●w●th the nature of the principall . for example . let the principall , as they speak , be some naturall good thing , the verie least accessorie or circumstance , by which this principall is rightly , and orderly furthered , and promoted undergoes also the consideration of a naturall good . the same rule houlds in actions civill : much more in the things , which appertein to religion , and gods worship . i therefore conclude , that the least ●ite , or ceremonie serving rightly , and orderly to further the principall act , and exercise of religion , doth worthily obteyn , after a sort , the respect and denomination of a religious , and ecclesiasticall good thing : which principall act if it do not truely , and effectually promote and advance , it is a vain addition at the best , beseeming onely vain purposes , and persons , which worship god in vain , teaching for doctrines mens traditions : seeing whatsoever is to be done in the church , is also , and first to be taught , that so it may be done . 2. whatsoever hath being in nature , is some certain thing first , and properly , and to be reduced to some certain , and distinct head . now all things whatsoever in use , either in , or about gods worship , may and must be referred necessarilie to some one of these three heads . eyther they are things naturall , and simplie necessarie to the exercise ; of which sort are the naturall circumstances of time , and place , without which no finite action can be performed : also for the administring of baptism , either a fonte or other vessell to hould water : and so for other adjoints absolutely necessarie for the administring of the holy things of the church : or secondly , they are things civill , and comely : as for example , a convenient place in which the church may conveniently , and comelily meet together , not a stable , or swynestye , also that habit of the minister , that coveting of the l. table , those ministring vessels , and other accessories , and appurt●nances whatsoever , without which the holy things of god , cannot be dispensed so ●●villy , and comely , as is meet . or lastly , they are properly things sacred , and holy , and by consequence , parts of externall divine worship : and the same either commaunded by god , and so lawfull , or of mans devise , & therefore superst●t●ous . now if any shall further ask me , what power then i ascribe eyther to the civill magistrate , or church-governors for mak●ng lawes about things indifferent ? i answer touching church-governers first , being to treat by and by of the magistrate , that no such power , to speak properly , belongs unto them ; as being not lords but servants of the church , under christ the onely lord thereof : exercising , as saith austin , from christ , and the apostles a m●mb●●● , not a lordship : and who therefore are to learn , if ther will be c●ment with their 〈◊〉 , which 〈◊〉 them , that a 〈◊〉 better becomes them , then as●pter , as bernard speaketh , for to ●●ake lawes , by all mens graunt , belongs to them , and them onely , who do swey ●●●pters , 〈…〉 lords 〈…〉 . moreover the holy scriptures everie where teach , that the highest church-officers , and governers are but ambassadours of god , and interpreters , and proclaymers or cryers of his word . but neither 〈…〉 nor interpreter , nor cryer , no nor the herald , the most honourable of all proclaimers , or publishers of edicts , can commaund any thing 〈◊〉 of the least matter by his own authoritie , as lunius sayth rightly . it is certain , that the governers of churches do stand in need of wisdom and discretion for the applying , & determining of the common rules of order and comlynes taken from the scripture , and common sense , to certain cases , and according to certain circumstances : but what makes this for the power of making lawes in the church ? which as m. perkins makes account , is a part of christs prerogative royall : considering withall , that neyther the church , not the meanest member thereof is further bound unto these their determinations , then they apper to agree with order , and comlines : neither are the ministers in any thing at all , ( as are the magistrates in manie things to be obeyed for the authoritie of the commaunder , but for the reason of the commaundment , which the ministers are also bound in duetie to manifest , & approve unto the consciences of h●m over whom they are set . chap. xi . of civill magistrates . vve beleev the verie same touching the civill magistrate with the belgick reformed churches , and willingly subscribe to their confession : and the more , because , what is by many restreyned to the christian magistrate , they extend indefinitely , and absolutely to the magistrate whomsoever . and that surely upon good ground : seeing the magistracie is one , & the power the same , whether the person be christian or heathen : neither is there wanting in an heathen magistrate ( that he might rule as he ought ) authoritie of order , but will of person : neither is his power increased by the accession of christianitie , but onely sanctified , as is first his person . the prince rules over his subjects , as he is a prince , and they subjects simply , not as faithfull or christian , he or they . onely christ the lord of our faith hath the faithfull ( as faithfull ) for his subjects : neither are the subjects of kings as subjects , ●ame part of the church , but of the kingdom . besides , there is one and the same christian faith of the prince and subject , and all things common unto both , which spring from the same ; seeing that in christ iesus there is neither servant , nor freeman , i ad neither magistrate , nor subject , but all are one in him . as therefore none , no not the least power of publique administrat on comes to the subjects by their christianitie ; to neither is the princes , thereby at all increased . and indeed how can it ? the magistrate though●-heathen hath power , as the minister of god for the good of his subjects to command and procure in and by good , and lawfull manner , and means , whatsoever apperteines either to their naturall , or spirituall life , so the same be not contrarie to gods word : upon which word of god if it beat , god forbid , that the christian magistrate should take libertie to use or rather abuse his authoritie for the same : which yet if he do eyther the one , or other , whether by commanding what god forbids , or by forbidding what god commaunds , seeing it comes by the fault of the person , not of the office , the subject is not f●●ed from the bond of allegiance , but as still tyed to obedience as active for the doing of the thing commanded if it be lawfull , so passive , if unlawfull , by suffering patiently the punishment though unjustly inflicted . lastly if anie civill , and coactive power in things whether civill , or ecclesiasticall , come to the magistrate , by his christianity , then if it so fall out that he make defection from the same , whether by idolatrie , or heresie , or profanes , it must follow , that thereupon his kingly power is dim●nished , and abridged : whereby how wide a window , or gate rather would be opened to sed●tions subjects under pretext ( specially catholick ) religion , to taise tumults in kingdoms , no man can be ignorant . chap. xii . of the church of england . there remains one , and that a great matter of exception against us , and the same the fountain well nigh of all our calamitie : to wit , that we seem evill-affected towards the church of england , and so averse from the same , as that we do no lesse then make a plain secession , and separation from it . i answer , first , that our fayth is not negative : as papists use to object to the euangelicall churches , nor which consists in the condemning of others , and wipeing their names out of the bead-●oul of churches , but in the edifying of our selvs : neither require we of anie of ours in the confession of their fayth , that they either renounce , or in one word contest with the church of england , whatsoever the world clamours of us this way . our faith is founded upon the writings of the prophets , and apostles , in which ●o mention of the church of england is made . we deem it our dutie what is found in them to beleev with the heart to righteousnes , and to confesse with the tongue to salvation . secondly , we accord ( as far as the belgick , and other reformed churches ) with the church of england in the articles of faith , and heads of christian religion published in the name of that church , and to be found in the harmonie of the confessions of fayth . thirdly , if by the church be understood the catholick church dispersed upon the face of the whole earth , we do willingly acknowledg , that a singular part thereof , and the same visible , and conspicuous is to be found in the land , and with it , do professe and practise what in us layes , communion in all things in themselvs lawfull , and done in right order . but and if by the word church be understood a spirituall politick body , such as was in her time , the church of israell ; and in hers the church of rome , corinth , the seven churches of asia , and others with them partaking of the same apostolicall constitution , and as unto which do apperteyn the oracles of god , sacraments , censures , government , and ministerie ecclesiasticall , with other sacred institutions of christ ; i cannot but confesse , and professe ( though with great greif ) that it is to us matter of scruple , which we cannot overcome , to give that honour unto it , which is due from the servants of christ to the church of christ , rightly collected , and constituted . and , that there may be place left in the eyes of the prudent reader for our defence in this case , so far forth as equitie and reason will permit , he must once , and again be intreated by me , seriously to weigh with himself , and in his heart , this one advertizement following . that a man may do a thing truely pleasing , and acceptable to god , it sufficeth not , that both the door in his person be accepted of god , the thing done commaunded by god , and that he do it with good , and holy affection before god , except withall , and first he be possessed of that state , & condition of life , which may affoard him a lawfull calling to that work . that a man , though never so good , with never so good a minde , should exercise the office , or do ( though the best ) works of a magistrate , father of famillie , housband , steward , citizen , or messenger , except he were first lawfully called , and preferred to the state of a magistrate , maister of sam●lie , housband , or the like ; so far were he from deserving anie praise for so doing , as on the contrarie he most justly incur●ed the censure of great rashnes , and violation of all order in familie and common wealth ; as taking unto himself that honour , unto which he was not called of god. the same houldeth , and that specially in course of religion , which is the specially state of mans life : so as if anie either as a pastour dispence the holy things of the ministeriall church , without a lawfull pastorall calling going before ; or participate in the same , out of a just , and lawfull church-state ; neither that dispensation , nor this participation can be warranted , but both the one , and other are usurpations , and in which is seen not the use , but abuse of holy things , and confusion of order . and as it behoveth everie person first to beleev , and know , that he is truly a christian , and partaker of the grace of christ , before he can hope to please god in the performance of this or that particular christian work ; so doth it also concern everie christian to provide , that he be first possessed of a just , and lawfull church-order , before he so much as touch with his least finger the holy things of the church thereunto proper , and peculiar . proper , i say , & peculiar , amongst which i do not simpl●e reckon the hearing of the word , which both lawfullie may , and necessarily ought to be done , not onely of christians though members of no particular church , but even of infidels , prophane persons , excommunicates , and any others : as being that in which no communion spirituall passeth , either ecclesiasticall , or personall , between the teacher , & heater , but according to some union ecclesiasticall or personall going before : seeing that christian saith comes by hearing the gospell , by faith union , & from union communion . this thus prem sed , i will speak a few things of the church of england ; not by way of accusation of it , but for our own purgation in the eyes of the godly , and equall reader , of the imputed c●ime of schism , so far as truth , and equitie will bear . and first , seeing that the people of god is materially ( as they speak , the church of god , it is required to the constitution of a holy church of god , that the people be holy , or saints and sanctified i● christ iesus : truely , and internally in regard of god , and their own consciences ; externally , and in appearance in respect of others , whom it concerns to discern and judg of them , according to the word of god , and rule of charitie . and considering that our question is about the church externall , and visible , as it is called , we are not so fond , or raitha● frant●ck , as to require , in respect of others , other holynes in the members thereof , then that which is visible and externall . now how marvaylous a thing is it , and lamentable withall , that amongst christians anie should be found so far at ods , with christian holines , as to think that others then apparently holy at the least , deserved admittance into the fellowship of christs church , and therewith of christ ? do , or can the grat●ous promises of god made to the church , the heavenly blessings due to the church , the seales of divine grace given to the church , apperteyn to others then such ? are others to be admitted into the familie of god , the kingdom of christ , and as it were the suburbs of heaven ? the church of god is by him called , and destinated to advance his glorie in the holynes of their lives , and conversations ; what then have those to do with it , or it with those , who , as calvin saith , live not but with gods dishonour ? for they , as the same author both truly and holily affirmeth ) who are called , and accounted the people of god , do bear as it were in their forheads , the name of god , whereupon it cannot but come to passe , that before men even god himself after a sort should be steyned with their filth . and this i deem the raither to be observed , seeing that there are to be found , and these not a few , who would thrust upon the churches of our thrice holy lord , a verie stage-like holynes : stoutly striveving to make it good , that to constitute a true , and lawfull member of the visible church , no more is required , then that a man with his mouth confesse christ , although in his works he plainly declare himself to be of the synagogue of sathan . but what saith the holy spirit of these impure spirits ? they professe they know god , saith the apostle , but in their works they deny him , being abhominable , and rebellious , and to everie good work reprobate . are abhominable persons to be brought into the temple of god ? rebellious persons into the kingdom of god ? such as are reprobate unto everie good work into the familie of god , which is as it were the storehouse of all good works ? if anie one that is called a brother , be a fornicatour , or covetous , or idolatour , or rayler , or drunkard , or extortioner , or anie waie a wicked one , such a one by the apostles direction , is to be expelled , and driven out of the churches confines . and seeing that , as one truly saith , it is a matter of greater contumelie to thrust out , then to keep out a guest , with what conscience can such plagues be receaved into the church , to the purgeing out wherof the same church , furnished for that end with the power of christ , stands in conscience bound ? or by what authoritie i pray , can such persons be compelled into the bosom of the spouse of christ , as for the expelling of whom far from her fellowship , & imbraceing all authoritie ought to conspire ? he that saith he hath fellowship with god , and walks in darknes is a lyer , and doth not truly . profession of christ therefore with the mouth , in those that work the works of darknes , and so by consequence , that by which a man is raither branded for a naturall child of the divell , then marked for a true member of the church . lastly , david that holy man of god , and tipe of christ , doth holily professe , that he who works deceipt , shall not continue in his house : and shall the workers of decept , and of all wickednes not onely be admitted , but even constreyned into the house of the living god , which the church is : o iehovah , holynes becometh thine house to length of dayes . which notwithstanding ( a sicknes desperate of all remedie ) that so it stands with the church of england , no man to whom england is known , can be ignorant : seeing that all the natives there , and subjects of the kingdom , although never such strangers from all shew of true pietie , and goodnes , and fraught never so full with manie most heynous impieties , and vices ( of which ranck whether there be not an infinite , and far the greater number , i would to god it could with anie reason be doubted ) are without difference compelled , and inforced by most seveere lawes civill & ecclesiasticall , into the bodie of that church . and of this confused heap ( a few , compared with the rest , godly persons mingled among ) is that nationall church , commonly called the church of england , collected , and framed . and such is the materiall constitution of that church . but if now you demaund of me , how it is formally constituted ; & whether upon profession of fayth , and repentance ( in word at least ) made by them of years , any combynation , and consociation of the members into particular congregations , ( which consociation doth formally constitute the ministeriall church , and members thereof , as both the scriptures and reason manifest ) either is , or hath been made since the universall and antichristian apostasie and defection in poperie ? nothing lesse ; but onely by their parrish perambulation , as they call it , and standing of the houses in which they dwell . everie subject of the kingdom dwelling in this or that parrish , whether in cittie , or countrie , whether in his own or other mans house , is thereby , ipso facto , made legally a member of the same parrish in which that house is situated : and bound , will he , nill he , fit , or unfit , as with iron bonds , and all his with him , to participate in all holy things , & some unholy also in that same parrish church . if any object , that yet the minister of the parish may suspend from the supper of the lord flagitious persons , and so by complaint made to m. chancelour , or m. officiall , procure their excommunication ; to let passe , that this is meerly a matter of form for the most part , and a remedie as ill , as the disease , i do answer , that even by this is proved undeniablie that which i intend : viz. that all these parrishioners before mentioned , are not without , but within , and members of the church ( and the same , as before constituted ) whom she judgeth . there is besides these a third evill in the way , and the same as predominant , and overtopping all other things in that church , as was saul higher then all the rest of the people : and with whose rehoboam-like ●inger we miserable men are pressed , and oppressed : and that is , the hierarchicall church government in the hands of the lord bishops and their substitutes : ( the verie same with that of rome , the pope the head onely cut off , upon whose shoulders also many , though not without notable injurie , would place the supreme magistrate ) and administred by the self same canon law . now this vast , and unsatiable hierarchicall gulfe , swallowing up and devouring the whole order , and use of the presbyterie , and therewith the peoples libertie , and withall , by m. parkers testimonie ( with whom a bishop in england is the pastour of the whole diocesse , and the priests or ministers , onely his delegates and helpers ) the verie office of the pastours themselvs , as did the seaven lean , and evill favoured kine the seaven fat , and the seaven wizened ears the seaven full that went before them , and so by consequence , not being of christ the lord , but of him rayther , who opposeth and advanceth himself against whatsoever is called god , or is worshiped ; so as he sits in the temple of god , as god , ( for unto god alone dwelling in his temple it apperteyns to appoint the offices of the ministers , & to prescribe the peoples bonds ) our hands are bound by that supreme , and sole authoritie of iesus christ in his churches , upon which both the order of presbyterie , and libertie of people , and office of pastour are founded , and from whom as the one onely lord , all ecclesiasticall power floweth , and by whom all ministeries are instituted , from giving any the least honour or obedience to the same hie●archicall exaltation in it self , or its subordinates , which ( as phylosophi● teacheth ) are one with it . wherein yet i would not so be understood , as if we were at anie defiance with the persons of the bishops , much lesse with the kings civill authoritie whereof they are possessed , whether in matters civill or ecclesiasticall . of their persons their own lords shall judg , to whom they stand or fall . there have been of that ranke who in our marian da●es have preferred the profession of the truth of the gospell before their lives : i hope there are also of their successours , who , if pressed with the same necessitie ( which god forbid ) would give the same testimonie , though at the same rate , unto the same truth of god revealed unto them . now as concerning their civill authoritie ; albeit we do not beleev , that the same is at all competent to the true ministers of the gospell , especially in that eminencie , externall glorie , and pompe of this world , in which they far exceed manie worldly princes , and rayther seem to represent the tryumphant , then the militant church ; yet for so much as they both obteyn the same by the gift of the king , and exercise it in his name , we do not unwillingly yeald honour , and obedience unto it , and to his majestie in it . but whereas it seems unto manie plain , and evident , that we may adjoin our selvs to the church of england without any subjection , or relation unto the spirituall government , and governers thereof ; that is altogether beyond our capacities : neither can we comprehend it , how it may be that he , who subjects , and joyns himself to anie publique , and politique bodie , or communitie , whether spirituall , or civil , becomes not in so doing , ipso facto , subject to the publique government , and governers thereof , and undergoes not a relation , and respect actually unto them . they raither are with all seriousnes to consider , how faythfully , and sincerely they quit themselvs , and their consciences before god , and men , who contending , and proving in and by so manie words , and arguments , that the hierarchicall government is papall , and antichristian , do neverthelesse submit themselvs thereunto both in the respect , and relation politicall formerly mentioned , and also in acts properly ecclesiasticall , into which the ecclesiasticall government , and spirituall policie of the church doth necessarily diffuse it self . now i do earnestly entreat thee , whosoever thou art , acquainted with belgick , or raither christian libertie , and either free from the mists of prejudice , or if anie way prejudiced , yet not chusing raither to serve a preconceaved opinion , then to follow an apparent truth , that thou wouldest truly & ingenuously tell , whether if the magistrates here ( from which they are far ) should by publique edict , under severe penaltie constreyn all , and everie the native subjects of the countrie into the bosom of the church , without anie difference made , either in respect of fayth or manners , according to the place of their habitation , and should set over this church so collected and constituted , an hierarchicall bishop provinciall or diocesan , in whose hands alone , with his officials , chauncellours , commissaries , archdeacons , and other court-keepers , canonicall authoritie should be placed , to constitute and depose ministers , excommunicate , and absolve both ministers , and people , yea whole churches ( yea with the living the dead , that they may obteyn christian buriall ) : whether now in this confused heap , and under this spirituall lordship , thou wouldest endure to remain either pastour or member . i suppose not . you ( brethren ) have not so learned christ ; whom you acknowledg both for the author of your faith , and instituter of your order ecclesiasticall . neyther yet we , having learned otherwise by the grace of god. christ the king doth gather , and form unto himself another kinde of kingdom amongst men , and the same to be administred by other officers , and according to other lawes . and if no place upon the face of the ●ruth should be free for us ( poore creatures ) refusing upon meer conscience of god ( as thou god the judg , and searcher of hearts knowest ) to commingle , and prostitute our selvs in and unto this confusion , and domination hierarchicall , we have most assured hope , that heaven it self is open for us by christ , who is the way , and whom in this dutie also we do serve , in which we shall at the length be fully free from this , and all other incumbrances . our adversaries bear in hand not onely others , but even us our selvs also , that we do for certain trifleing matters , & as they speak , circumstantiall corruptions , sequester our selvs from the church of england . and as nurses use to lisp with children , so they , that they might discend to our capacities , do oft and much instruct us , that unworthie members must be born in the church , especially of private persons ; that some corruptions at least in the discipline and externall rites , are to be tolerated ; that there may be the temple of god , though prophaned ; the holy cittie though without a wall ; the feild of the lord , though the enemie sowtares amongst the wheat ; also a heap of wheat , though much chaffe commingled therewithall . and that we , dul-bayards as we are ; may at the length conceav those things , they verie seriously inculcate & whet upon us in these & the like considerations : as that the israelitish church in its time was steyned with almost all enormities , both for manners and fayth : that ●nto the same all israelites and iewes whatsoever without difference , were violently compelled by king iosiah and others ; as also , that in the parable , all were compelled to come to the mariage , good and bad , that the house might be filled . lastly , that in the apostolick churches themselvs , there were not wanting some who practised , and others who taught vile , and evill things : that in one place the discipline was neglected , in another the verie doctrine of fayth corrupted , and manie the like matters , which it were to long to repeat . surely , foolish were we if we knew not these things , impudent , if we denyed them to be true for the most part ; and lastly , unequall , if we acknowledged not , that manie the same , or like blemishes after a sort , will , and do creep into the churches of our dayes : which yet to disclaym as unlawfull for the same , stood neither with wisdom , nor charitie . but the prudent reader may plainly observe by the premises , that they are other matters , and of greater weight , for the most part , wherewith we , and our consciences are pressed . we do not judg it an evill intollerable ( though greatly to be bewayled ) that evill men should be suffered in the church ; but that all of most vile , and desperate condition , that such , and so great a kingdom affoards , should thereinto will they , nill they , be compelled : nor that the discipline ( as they call it ) or ecclesiast call government instituted by christ , is neglected or violated , but that another plain contrarie unto it is set up by law , and fully , and publiquely everie where exercised : neither lyes our exception against any personall , or acc●dentarie profanation of the temple , but against the faultie frame of it , in respect of the causes constitutive , matter and form : neither strive we about the walles of the cittie , but about the true , and lawfull citizens , the policie and government of the cittie of god , and essentiall administration of the same . but to give more ful satisfaction to the indifferent reader , it seems worth the labour to descend particularly to a few , and the same the cheifest objections made on the contrarie behalf . and of them , that which may and ought to be said touching the church of israel , & its condition compared with the christian churches seems to deserve the first place . and touching it ; first , the constitution of the church of israel is not to be considered in that whole , much lesse apostaticall , nation , but in holy abraham , from whom it came , & in whom it was holy , as the lump in the first fruits , & the branches in the holy root : and that by vertue of the gratious covenant , i will be thy god , & the god of thy seed , first contracted with abraham himself , & after renued with his seed , whole israell . but now to affirm any such thing of the whole english nation were foolish ; to prove it impossible . 2. god doth not now a daies select , & seve● from others as his peculiar , anie whole nation or people , as sometimes he did the people of israel , both ecclesiastically , & civilly : but in everie nation they who feare god , & work righteousnes are accepted of him . these , in what natiō soever combyning together in holy covenant , and worshiping god after the prescript of his h. word are that holy nation , the common wealth of israel , the israel of god , the temple & tabernacle of the living god , in which he hath promised to dwell : these he would have scattered in all places of the world , & to hould intercourse with the men of the world in the common affairs of this life , for their gaming if it may be unto christ : god adding dayly unto the church such as should be saved . whereas on the contrarie , unto the church of england , whereof all natural english are together , & at once made members , it can hardly be , if at all , that anie at anie time should be added . 3. the verie land of canaan was legally holy , & the land of the lords inheritance , & whose fruit was to be circumcised , & her sabbaths kept , by the lords appointment : & in which alone by divine ●●ght 〈◊〉 were to be payed . and as holy things are not to be mingled with , or prost●tuted unto prophane , so neither was anie place in this land to be permitted unto prophane persons to dwell in . the seven prophane nations , which formerly had inhabited it , were altogether to be destroyed by the israelites being to possesse it for their inheritance , neither was mercie to be shewed them . after , if any , whether born in the land , or strangers , did ought with an high hand , he was to be cut off from among his people . herewith accords that of david the king , i will betime destroy all the wicked of the land . lastly , ●e that did not seek the lord god of israell with all his heart , was to be put 〈◊〉 death , whether small or great , whether man or woman . far be it from godly princes , & other potentates in the world , to think , that it behooveth them in this rigorous manner to deal with their subjects : although there want not , who partly from a preposterous , & iudaizeing zeal , & partly to serv their own ambition , cease not to inculcate unto the kings of the earth , above that is meet , the examples of the kings of iudah . 4. it is not true that the kings of iudah or israel did const●●yn any into the church by force , or compel them to undergo the condition of members , but only being members , to do their dutie . all the israel●tes and posteritie of iakob , had their part in the lords covenant : unto which also they were bound to stand under perill of cutting off from the lords people , both spiritually & bodily , according to the dispensation of the ould testament in the land of canaan . but of this our question is not for the present : that neither is to be considered , whether king david , salomon , iehosaphat & others did force circumcision , & other mosaicall institutions upon the edom●tes , ammonites , and others by them subdued , & held in civill subjection ; or whether they compelled them by coactive lawes , would they , nould they , fit or unfit , into the church of god. that this was so , cannot be affirmed with modestie : which yet except it so were , hath nothing in it , which e●ther can hurte our cause , or help our adversaries . lastly , he who well weigheth with himself what legall , and typicall holines was in use of old in israel , shadowing out the true , & sp●ritual holines ; and withall by how much , both the more clear revelat on of heavenly things , & more plenteous grace of the spirit ●s afforded to the churches since christ , then was formerly to israel , he shall see manie things making for the tolerating of much in israel ; which in us 〈◊〉 plainly intollerable : and that god will not use that patience & long-suffering towards any church now , nor permit , or wink at those things in it , which for the hardnes of their hearts , he bore in that ancient people . the parable of the tares matth. 13. followeth ; with which as with some thunderboult , men both learned , and unlearned think us beaten all to fitters . but first , these words , let both grow togither till the harvest , v. 30. ( frō which alone they do dispute ) christ the lord doth not expound nor meddle with , in the opening of the parable : from them therefore nothing firm can be concluded . 2. christ him●elf interprets the feild , not the churh , but the world v. 38. as also the harvest not the end of the church , but of the world , v. 39. and if by the world , you understand the church , you must needs say , that christ in the expounding of one parable , used another . 3. both the text it self , & reason of the thing do plainly teach that he doth not speak at all of excommunication , which servs for the bettering of the tares , but of their finall rooting up to perd●tion . lastly , admit christ spake of men apparently wicked in the church , either not to be excommunicated in certain cases ( which with gellius snecanus i confidently denie ) or not excommunicated as they ought to be , & therefore to be born of private members ; the former of which is too ordinarie , especially in churches enjoying peace , & prosperitie : the latter of which ( the church not being desperately bent on evill ) i easily assent to , yet doth this place affoard no medicine for our grief ; which ariseth not from any corrupt , or negligent administration of the churches discipline , thorough the car●lesnes or want of wisdom ( it may be too much wisdom such as it is ) of the administers thereof , which are personall things ; but from the verie constitution of the church it self , & subject of ecclesiasticall both government and power . yea , i ad unto all these things , that we for our parts are willing in the busines , and controversie in hand to appeal unto the tribunall of this verie parable , and that expounded by our adversaries themselvs , & do willingly condiscend , that by it alone judgment be given in this matter . our saviour christ doth plainly teach , that this feild was sown with good seed alone ; & that after , whilst men slept , the enemie , the divel came , & sowed ●ares amongst the wheat . but on the contrarie , in the sowing the english f●●ld , whether we respect the nat●onall or parochiall churches , together with the wheat the tares , & that exceeding the other infinitely , were at first , & yet are sown , & that of purpose , & under most severe penalt●●s . and hence is the first & princ●pall pr●judice to our english harvest , & frō which i conceav all the rest to come . for unto this ch. thus clapped , & clouted together of all persons of all sorts , & spirits without difference , no man equally & prudently weighing things , can denie , but that the pompous & imperious hierarchicall government , together with all its accessories doth right well accorde . to the things objected from the parable of the mariage luke 14. & mat. 22. i onely answer , that those servants were the prophets and apostles ; the son christ himself ; the compulsion to be made no otherwise , then by the preaching of the word : by which , as calvin hath it , god doth importunately sollicit our slo●thfulnes , not onely pricking us with exhortations , but cōpelling us with threatnings to come unto him : which word of god as it is by some wholly contemned , so doth it extort from others , onely an externall & hypocritical obedience , but by manie is receaved , through the blessing of god , with al holy & devout affection . now unto these pa●ables of christ manie are wont , and that very busily , to annex one of their own . a heap , say they , of wheat although it have much chaf mixed with it , & the 〈◊〉 more in quantitie then the wheat is , 〈◊〉 notwithstanding truly , & is rightly termed a heap of wheat ; according to the phylo●ophers rule , the den●mination to not of the greater , but better part . i answer ; first , that this axiom is not simply true : for if in the church , or any other convention popular , or in which things passe by voyces , the greater part hap to exceed the better , the denominat on of that passage , or decree , and so the whole processe of the matter , is according to the greater , though the worser part . 2. the chaf in that wheat is either of the same wheat , or of other , & brought from els where : if of that same , then it makes nothing to the present purpose , since wicked men appe●●ein not to the persons of the godly , no● are their chaf : if of other , & from els where , it may easily be added in that quantitie & proportion , as that neither it may deserv the name of an heap of wheat , but of chaf ; nor he that sels it for wheat , of an honest merchant , but of a deceiptfull impostour . 4. the things objected from the apostolicall churches are altogether personall , & accidentall ; from which that the churches gathered of men , and by men governed , should be exempted , is ●aither to be desired , then hoped for . but for us , the things which most afflict us in the ch. of england , & presse us in the respect fore-mentioned to a secession from the same , do concern the verie materiall , & formall constitution of the ministeriall church , together with the essentiall administration of the church-policie . and how different these things are , who seeth not ? lastly , it is objected , that in the ch. of england lively faith , & true pietie are both begotten , and nourished , in the hearts of many , by the preaching of the gospell there . god forbid , that we should not acknowledg that , & withall , that infinite thanks for the same are due to gods great power & goodnes , both in respect of our selvs and others : who notwithstanding the great confusion , both of persons , and things there to be found , vouchsafeth to his elect so plentifull grace , covering under the vayl of his superaboundant goodnes & mercy , by their ●●ncere fayth in christ iesus , their sins & aberrations , whether of ignorance , or infirmitie . what then must be done ? should we continue in sin , that grace might abound ? or shall we against knowledg go on to walk inordinately , because in our ignorance god hath vouchsafed us of his grace in that disordered state of things ? without the ministerial church ( of which we speak ) the preaching of the gospell both may , & useth to be had , & by it sayth to be ingenerated , except christian churches be to be gathered of infidels & unbeleevers . besides , what minos , or rha●amant will deny , that even in the bosom of the romish church some fa●thfull persons may be found ? how much more in that of england , in which the main truths of the gospell , the most & greatest errours of poperie being banished , are taught by so manie godly & learned men , with such zeal , and earnestnes ? now what of these things ? is it therefore lawfull for a christian , eyther to content himself with himself , without joyning to any christian congregation ; or to continue still in the bosom of the church of rome , as a member under the pope th● head ? i therefore conclude out of m. brightman , whose words i had raither use then mine own , speaking of the government & ministerie of the church of england , the fruit , to wit , of the word preached , doth no more exempt from blame our corruptions , then a true child doth adulterie . and here thou hast ( christian reader ) the whole order of our conversation in the work of christian religion , set down both as breifly , and plainly , as i could . if in anie thing we●er , advertise us brotherly , with desire of our information , & not ( as our countrimens manner for the most part is ) with a minde of reproaching us , or grat fying of others : and whom thou findest in errour , thou shalt not leave in obstinacie , nor as having a minde prone to schism . e●re we may ( alasse too easily ) : but heretiques ( by the grace of god ) we will not be ? but & if the things which we do , seem ●ight in thine eyes , ( as to us certainly they do ) i do earnestly , & by the lord iesus admonish and exhort thy godly minde , that thou wilst neither withould thy due obedience frō his truth , no● just succour from thy distressed brethren . neither do thou indure , that either the smalnes of the number , or meannes of the ●ondition of those that professe it , should prejudice with thee the pro●ssion of the truth : but have in minde that of te●tullian , do we measure mens faith by their persons , or their persons by their faith ? as also that of austin , let matter weigh with matter , and cause with cause , and rea●●● with reason : but especially that of the apostle , my brethren , have 〈◊〉 the faith of our glorious lord iesus christ in respect of persons . but now , it so come to passe ( which god forbid ) that the most being eyther forestalled by prejudice , or by prosperitie made secure , there be few found especially men of learning , who will so far vouchsafe to stoop , as to look upon so despised creatures , and their cause ; this alone remaineth that we turn our faces & mouths unto thee ( o most powerfull lord , & gratious father ) humbly imploreing help from god towards those , who are by men left desolate . there is with thee no respect of persons , neither are men lesse regarders of thee , if regarders of thee , so the worlds disregarding them . they who truly fear thee , and wo●● righteousnes , although constreyned to live by leav in a forrain land , exiled from countrie , spoyled of goods , destitute of freinds , few in number , and mean in condition , are for all that unto thee ( o gratious god ) nothing the lesse acceptable : thou numbrest all their wandrings , and puttest their tears into thy bottels : are they not written in thy book ? towards thee , o lord , are our eyes ; confirm our hearts , & bend thine ear , and suffer not our feet to slip , or our face to be ashamed , o thou both just , and mercifull god. to him through christ be praise , for ever , in the church of saints ; and to thee ( loving and christian reader ) grace , peace , and eternall happines . amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a10834-e100 ierom to p●●●mach . ioh. 3. tertullian 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 . cypr. tr●ct . 〈…〉 psal. 22 , 9. act. 15. 21. harmonie of confess . of the script . art. 6 , conf. belg. preface to the ●arm of confess . act. 2 , 42. heb. 10 , 25. te●tul apol. ch . 37. 1 cor. 10. 17 act. 20 , 17 , 28. iunius 〈◊〉 . lib. 1 , cap. 2. object . answ. see sadell against tur. in solut . 2. sylog on math. 1● . scalig de subul . ex●● . ●07 . 1 cor. 12 , 27. 2 cor. 6 , 10● & 11 , 2. 〈◊〉 . ●n prov. eph. 4 , 4 , 5. see i●arm . of c●nfess . belg. & french , calvin , be●a . &c. c●los . 2 , 11 , 12. 1 cor. 5 , 12. t●●tul of ●ipt . ch . 18. iu●us annot . in ide● cap. psay 29 , 13. mat. 28 , 10. co●os . 2 , 23. 1 〈◊〉 . 3. 1● . 〈◊〉 6. iam. 5. 17. 1 cor. 14 , 16 ● phes 5 , 19. colos. 3 , 16. scalig. po●t . li 1. c● . 2. iude 21. cyprian . de ●at . domin . mat. 6 , 6. iam. 4 , 13. calv. in iam. ch . 4. v. 15. idem in mat 6 , 9. vrsiu●s , b●can●s , piscator , p●●●ins , &c. tertull lib. de ora● . exod. 4 , 22. see m. 〈◊〉 son of written 〈◊〉 . gal. 6 , 16. calvin . in gene● . c. 27 1. 1 tim. 2 , 8 ▪ bucanus cōm●n places of prayer . 1 thes. 5 , 19. 1 cor. 12 , 7. act. 6. 2 cor. 2 , 16. rom. 8 , 26. t●tul . apol. against the gentles . zac. 12 , 10. rom. 8 , 26 , iude ●0 . zac 11 , 15. 1 tim. ● 2. tit. 1 , 5 , 7 , 9 〈…〉 gov . nam . p4 . 32 , 33 , 44. pag. 34. 35 , 36. act. 20 , 17 , 28. 〈◊〉 . 28 , 29 , 30 , 31. numb . 8. i●vi . 17 , 9 , 10. 1 tim. 5 , 21. ●nd 6 , 14. 1 corm . 14 , 37. 1 tim. 5 , 11 , ●2 . colos. 4 , 17. 1 thes 5 , 12 , 13. 1 tim. 5 , 17. act. 20 , 17 , 28. 1 cor. 10 , 17 act. 2 , 44 , 45. 1 tim. 5 , 20. beza in ann . on the place . math. 18 , 15 1● , 17. beza , zanch●us , parker , g bucer , &c. aug●●●t of ch●●● . 〈◊〉 lib. 3. bish of winch●●● , ans●●● to tertus pa. 43. 2 ge●in . 11 , 28. ver . 1 , 2 , 4 , 7 ▪ 13. v. 1. 7. i●s . 9. 11. ch . 7 , 9 , 11. and 2 , 7 , 8. see the bishop of church , answer to tertus p. 41 , 42. whitakers of the authoritie of the script . lib. 1. see 〈…〉 chap. 2. pet. ma● . 〈◊〉 1 ●or . ch . 5. act. 1. cyprian l. 1. epist. 4. ver . 15. gal. 1 , 1. calvin in act. 1. act. 6. act. 14. 1 tim. 3. tit. 1. act 15. see whit k. of the author . of ii. 〈◊〉 lib. 1 , ch . 5. sect . 1. see iohan. wolph . in 2 long . c. 23. 〈◊〉 . against heres . ●ib . 3. theodor. dial . 1. tertull. against hermog . mat. 28 , 20. ● cor. 14 , 37 ch . 4. 1. a cor. 5 , 5. ● tim. 3. 2 cor. 4 , 5. 1 tim. 4 , 16 , ch . 5 , 17 , 18. cypr. epist. 4 , li. 4 , 1. math. 18. 1 corinth . 5. chrisost. in epist. to tit , see bodin of commonu● . book 1. chap. last . 1 cor. 12. 28 1 tim. 5 , 17 heb. 13 , 17. act. 20 , 18. 1 cor. 14 , 34 , 35. 1 tim. 2 , 12. exod. 31 , 13 exod. 20. 〈◊〉 . 3 , 16 , ● . k●ch●m . cu●s phyl . d●●p . 28 , c. 6. g●n . 1 , 27. & 2 , 22. chem. ●xam . part . 2 of mar . bu●anu● in commo● places . 〈…〉 pag. 11 , 12. math. 5 , 18. exod. 25 , & 26. exod. 20. num. 29 , 38 ex●d . 20. ephes. 6 , 2. 2 cor. 8. 17 luke 7 , 28. calv. in act 1 , 3. ioh. 20 , 19 26. luke 24. 36 〈◊〉 gen 2 , 2. mat. 28 , 18. act. 20 , 26. 1 cor. 4 , 1. 1 cor. 14 , 37 act. 20 , 66 , 27. 1 cor. 16 , 1 , 2. rev 1. 10 ▪ ●gnat ad magnes . ●ull . martyr . apol. 2. tertull. de idol eus●b . l. 4 , 23 de dionis . august . de verb. apoll. serm . 15. 1 pet. 1 , 3. esay 58 , 13. gal. 4 , 1. esay . 58 , 13 , 14. colos. 2 , 16. 17. exod. 31 , 13. armin. in theol . disp . pr●v . p. 186 , 187. gen. 49 , 3. gal. 3. 8 , 16 , 17. mat. 24 , 20 chrisost ho●● 77. 〈◊〉 mat. 24. 〈◊〉 . 3. var 〈…〉 〈…〉 gen. 2 , 2. harm synod 〈◊〉 . pag. 21 22. 2 cor. 4. 13. luke 2 , 46 , 47 & 〈◊〉 4 , 15 , 16. ad. 8 , 4 n●th 11 19 , 20. 21. & ch . 13. 14 15 16 & ch . 18 , 24 , 25 , 26 , & ● in. 18 , 18. mat. 23. 34. 1 cor. 1 , 20. 〈…〉 1 cor 14 〈…〉 p. 1. 〈◊〉 on 1 cor. 14 , 31. ●ph . 2 , 20. ch . 3 , 4. 5. fool 15 , 21. iudg. 5 , 1. ● kin. 22 , 14 〈◊〉 2 , 36. apoc. 2 , 20. 1 pet. 4 , 10 , 11. 1 this. 5 , 9 2● . 1 tim. 1 , 3. 1 ioh. 4. 1. apo. 2 , 2 , 7. with c. 1 , 11. see 〈◊〉 . acent . ●ra●ag . ●ath . pag. 168 , 169. iuke 2 , 40. & 4 , 21 , 2● . act. 17 , 2. & 18 , 24 , 26 , 28. 1 cor 14 35 〈…〉 l. 6 , c. 12 , 3● 1 cor. 14 , 4 , 24 , 25. act. 20 28. 〈◊〉 against tu●● . s●●h . pa. 67 , 68. 〈◊〉 mart. in 1 〈◊〉 . 14 , 29. 〈…〉 2 , 15. pet. mart 〈◊〉 2 〈◊〉 . 10 , 27. ioh. wolph ●n 2 king. 17 , 19 , and 19 , 6. math. 15 , 9. izec . 44. 11 ma● . 20. 2● . 2 cor. 4 , 5. 1 pet. 1 , 3. august of the 〈◊〉 of god l. 19. b●r●t . of caus. 〈◊〉 . 2. 〈◊〉 contr . 3. l. 5 , c. 7 , 〈…〉 c. 18. 〈…〉 on 2 〈◊〉 . of 〈◊〉 . ●p of ch●● . to ●citus ● . 35. r●n . 13 , 4. rom. 10 , 10 ▪ he●● . 5. 4. rom 1 , 7. 1 cor. 1 , 2. 2 cor. 1 , 1. calvin in 1 conn . c. 5. idem in rom. 2 , 24. revel . 4. 8. tit. 1 , 16. 1 cor. 5. 1 ioh. 1 , 6. ioh. 8. 40. psa. 101 , 7. psal. 93 , 5. 1 corin. 5 , 11 , 12. park . eccles . pol 3 , 35. and hier. generally . gen. 41. 2 thes. 2 , 4. 1 chran . 29 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 19. 1 cor. 5 , 4. ch , 12 , 5 , 28. rom. 14 , 14 theodoret. dial. 1. colos. 2 , 5. rom. 11 , 16. gen. 17. 7. exod 10. 6. l●v. ●0 25. act. 10 , 35. 1 cor 5 , 10. act. 2 , 42. 〈…〉 19 , ●● , 25. gen. 14. 〈…〉 . 〈◊〉 7 , 15 num. 1● . 13. 〈…〉 15. 12 1● . see rev. 2 , 5. and 3 , 16. & ●●thall par●u● on 1 cor. 7 , 11. vers . 28 , 29 , 30 , 31. se● s●ee . of ch . di●cip . 2 part m●th . 2. p. 24 , 27 , 25 28. calvin in math. 22 , 9. m. bright on rev ch vers . 26. ter●u● pre●er 〈◊〉 heret . austin against maxim. 3 , 14. iames 2 , 1. meetness for heaven promoted in some brief meditations upon colos. 1. 12. discovering the nature and necessity of habitual and actual meetness for heaven here, in all that hope for heaven hereafter. designed for a funeral legacy. by o.h. an unworthy minister of the gospel of christ. heywood, oliver, 1629-1702. 1679 approx. 200 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 114 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a43583 wing h1771 estc r216793 99828512 99828512 32940 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a43583) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 32940) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1867:4) meetness for heaven promoted in some brief meditations upon colos. 1. 12. discovering the nature and necessity of habitual and actual meetness for heaven here, in all that hope for heaven hereafter. designed for a funeral legacy. by o.h. an unworthy minister of the gospel of christ. heywood, oliver, 1629-1702. [24], 201, [3] p. printed by j.r. for t. parkhurst at the bible and three crowns in cheapside, london : [1679] "to the reader" signed oliver heywood. date of publication from wing. imprint date failed to print. final two leaves bear advertisement. reproduction of the original in the congregational library, london. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng bible. -n.t. -colossians i, 12 -commentaries -early works to 1800. conduct of life -early works to 1800. heaven -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. 2008-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-10 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-12 john pas sampled and proofread 2008-12 john pas text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion meetness for heaven promoted in some brief meditations upon colos. 1.12 . discovering the nature and necessity of habitual and actual meetness for heaven here , in all that hope for heaven hereafter . designed for a funeral legacy . by o. h. an unworthy minister of the gospel of christ . psal . 73.24 . thou shalt guide me with thy counsel , and afterward received me to glory . rev. 22.14 . blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life , and may enter in through the gates into the city . london , printed by j. r. for t. parkhurst at the bible and three crowns in cheapside . an epistle to my dearly beloved hearers , friends and neighbours , and others that will be at the cost to buy , or take the pains to read this small treatise . dearly beloved , a desire after happiness is so ingraven in the nature of man , that it was never put to the debate , whether he would be happy or no ? this needs no choice ; all are agreed in this as the end of a rational agent : and therefore at last felicity was accounted a goddess among the romans , and st. augustine tells us , that lucullus built her a temple ; only he wonders that the romans that were worshippers of so many gods , had not given divine honour to felicity sooner ; which alone would have sufficed in stead of all the rest of their deities , which he reckons up , and saith at last of numa , that having chosen so many gods and goddesses , 't is strange he neglected this ; [ an eam forte in tanta turbâ videre non potuit ? ] but though they at last had got a notion of felicity , yet having no true piety , that veneration ended in the greatest misery and infelicity , nothing but wars ensued . vid. aug. de civit . dei , lib 4. cap. 23. this indeed is the case : all men would be happy , but few know the due object and true means leading to happiness ; it is possible ( as the same father saith there ) to find a man that is unwilling to be made king ; [ nullus autem invenitur , qui se nolit esse foelicem ] that is , loath to be made happy : but indeed most men blunder in the dark , and few find the thing they seek : the same father tells us , ( de civ . dei , lib 19. c. 1. ) that varro in his book of philosophy , that had diligently searched the various opinions of men about the chiefest good , reduceth them to two hundred eighty eight sects or sentences ; [ non quae jam essent , sed quae esse possent ? ] and augustine reduceth them to their several heads : but i pass by heathens that are bewildred in the dark , and know no better : even professing or pretended christians either do not understand , or will not embrace the way of peace and rest . the lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men , to see if there were any that did understand and seek god. they are all gone aside , they are altogether become filthy , there is none that doth good , no not one . psal . 14.2 , 3. all mankind is degenerate ; and few are regenerated : we set out for hell as soon as we are born ; and till converting grace turn us heaven-wards we go blindfold to the pit : the whole world lyeth in ignorance and wickedness . 1 joh. 5.19 . but no such ignorance as that which is wilful . this is the condemnation , that light is come into the world , and men love darkness rather then light , because their deeds are evil ; joh. 3.19 . no man perisheth but by his own will. men will sin , and love death rather then life . you will not come to me , ( saith christ ) that you may have life . joh. 5.40 . he that rejecteth the means , rejecteth the end : all they that hate christ , love death : prov. 8.36 . they do both , not directly , or designedly , but interpretatively , and consequentially . most men observe lying vanities , and so forsake their own mercies . jon. 2.8 . as he leaves the east that goes to the west : my people , saith god , have committed two evils , [ observe it ; it 's but one act , yet there 's two evils in it , what are they ? ] they have forsaken me , the fountain of living waters , and hewed them out cisterns , broken cisterns , that can hold no water . jer. 2.13 . oh what evil is in the bowels of one sin ! but especially in the sin of vnbelief . the evil of sin brings on the evil of punishment . miss of heaven , and you purchase hell. what mad man will refuse this gift that is better then gold ? what beast will run into a pit or praecipice ? but some men make a jest of heaven ; as that bishop , who , when one said , i hope to see you at your diocess ere long ; replyed , i fear i shall be in heaven before that time come : others , like martha , are so incumbred in the world , that they are staked down to terrene objects ; and answer , as he that being asked , if he saw the eclipse , answered , no , i have so much business on earth , that i have no leisure to look up to heaven : this is most mens ease . alas , the world eats out many mens religion , as the sun shining eats out the fire : so that men are as dead to religion , as if heaven were but a dream ; and as hot upon sin , as if hell had no fire , or were all vanisht into smoke : nay , it 's well , if some look not on heaven and hell , as if they were but a fable or romance , a scar-crow to fright weak headed people , or the meer invention of designing priests to keep men in awe : but they shall know one day to their cost , that there is an heaven by the loss of it , and that there is an hell by the torments of it : let these ask the rich man in torment , whether there is an hell or no ? targum saith , the dispute betwixt cain and abel was , concerning a world to come : and indeed this is the controversie betwixt the faithful and unbelievers : though the wicked say the creed , wherein they profess a belief of the resurrection , judgment , and eternal life ; yet it s but notional , not experimental , practical : they know nothing of it initially , inchoatively , by feeling the beginnings of it here , and living to the rates of it : it is to be feared that the greatest part of mankind will fall to the devils share : how little are men concerned about a future state ! how many put away from them the evil day ! some have a foolish imagination that heaven is every where ; that there is neither heaven nor hell but in a mans own conscience , and then they can shift well enough ; for they can stop the mouth of a bawling conscience , and speak peace to themselves : but how long will either of these last ? when god arms a man against himself , he shall be a magormissabib , a fear round about : witness cain , saul , judas , that thought hell was easier then his own conscience , and therefore desperately leapt into it ; to the crushing of his body , and the damning of his soul : they shall find that there is an heaven and hell after this natural life is ended . it is recorded of peter martyr , that he lying upon his death-bed discoursed sweetly of heaven ; bullinger standing by alleadged that in phil. 3.20 . our conversation is in heaven : true , said the sick man , it is in heaven , [ sed non in coelo brentii , quod nusquam est , ] not in the heaven of brentius ; which is no where : there is doubtless a [ coelum empyreum , ] called a third heaven , or paradice , into which paul was wrapt in his extacy , 2 cor. 12.2 , 4. into which christ was carryed body and soul , luke 24.51 . the habitation of gods holiness and glory , isa . 63.15 . it s true god himself is called heaven , dan. 4.26 . the heavens do rule . so matth. 21.25 . and it s as true , god fills heaven and earth , jer. 23.24 . and its true , where the king is there is the court : but yet god manifests himself far differently in all places ; he is in hell by the execution of his justice , in heaven by manifestation of his grace , on earth by displaying both , and his other glorious attributes , according to his infinite wisdom and pleasure . but let vain men please themselves in their fond conceits ; or desperately leap into the other world , let you and me duely weigh the vast difference betwixt graceless and gracious souls in this and in the other world , and though men will not believe , because they see not any such difference ; yet a time is coming , when they shall return and discern betwixt the righteous and the wicked , between him that serveth god , and him that serveth him not . mal. 3.18 . then all the world must be ranked into two regiments , sheep and goats ; the one at christs right hand , the other on his left ; to the one he will say , come ye blessed , to the other go ye cursed . mat. 25.32 — 46. they that love not to hear discriminating truths here , shall meet with discriminating acts at that day : and can we think that there will be such a difference at that day , and is there none in this world ? yes certainly : though all things come alike to all , as to common providences in this world , eccles . 9.2 . yet grace makes a difference in persons dispositions here , and there will be a vast difference in divine dispensations hereafter , much greater then betwixt a man and a bruit ; yea , like that which is betwixt an angel and a devil . oh that men would study and understand this now ! grace makes the difference now , and glory compleats it . 1. in point of assimilation : gods children are like their father now , but shall be more like him at that day ; 1 joh. 3.2 . our former similitude is from faith , and so imperfect ; but the latter is from immediate vision , and so perfect and compleat . 2. in point of satisfaction : in this world the weary soul is working towards its rest , psal . 116.7 . and doth by faith enter into this rest ; heb. 4.3 . yet there is another remaining , ver . 9. some satisfaction is in ordinances , psal . 36.8 . but more in that blessed morning , when gods children awake , psal . 17.15 . 3. in point of participation : for gods children are not tantalized , by beholding that they have no right to ; no , they have heaven by appropriation by faith here , so eph. 2.8 . and by compleat possession in the other world ; abundant evidence of peculiar relation , rev. 21.3 . 4. in point of fruition : gods children do enjoy fellowship with god already in this world ; 1 joh. 1.3 . but alas , it is but through a glass darkly , but then face to face immediately ; 1 cor. 13.12 . now it is but rarely , but now and then , but then constantly and perpetually , as the angels that always behold the face of our father . matth. 18.10 . their eye is never off god , even when they are sent on any errands to earth about the saints : it s defective in degree here , but full and compleat above : it s oft obstructed and obscured here , but above this glory shall be revealed in us , rom. 8.18 . and so never darkened or eclipsed with clouds of interposing guilt . o ye children of men , prove your fathers will , and your selves children ; make sure of this inheritance ; make no reckoning of the stuff of this world ; for the good of the upper country above is before you ; heaven will pay for all your losses , and countervail all your crosses here : no matter how your names are written on earth , in dust or marble , if they be written in heaven . some say this world is but a shadow of that above ; look you for the lineaments of that kingdom above , to be pourtrayed on you . basil asserted one hundred sixty five heavens . you must pass by all the fancyed heavens of men , and look for a city that hath foundations , whose builder and maker is god. heb. 11.10 . take this kingdom of heaven by violence . matth. 11.12 . get a copy of grace in your hearts out of scripture records , the court rolls of heaven ; so you are sure of it , and lay hold of eternal life . 1 tim. 6.19 . heaven must be begun here , or never enjoyed hereafter . holiness of heart and life is like the old testament tabernacle , an example and shadow of heavenly things . happiness is the injoyment of good , commensurate to our desires ; and our desires must be suited to that happiness . criticks observe , that the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] which signifies happiness , is plural ; not only denoting a confluence of many good things to make one happy , but because there is an happiness in this life , preparing for and anticipating the happiness in the other . they differ not in kind but degree ; that above is the same state , but in an higher stature ; the same book but in a more correct edition , and a larger character . the saints above differ from us as man from a child , as noon sun from the morning light ; we are in the same house , only they are got into the upper room ; at the same feast only they are at the upper end of the table . let us make hast after them : they were once as you are , groveling on this dung-hill , but are exalted to the throne ; aspire you to the same preferment : it may be had , it must be had or you are undone : study the way of god , how this inheritance is made over to the sons of men , and that is , 1. by regeneration . matth. 19.28.2 . by adoption . romans 8.17.3 . by donation . luke 12.32 . 4. by right of redemption . joh● 10.28 . eph. 1.14 . and they say , he that hath bought a slave may dispose of him as he please , by his will : our lord made his will thus , joh. 17.24 . father , i will that where i am these may be also . clear this and clear all , then you are safe ; fail in this and you are undone . but this is not all ; you are not only to get and clear up a title to this inheritance , but to press after a due meetness for it ; and this is the design of this small treatise , which was ( for the substance of it ) preached and writ thirty five years ago , and now revised and published upon these considerations . 1. for my own help and furtherance in preparation for heaven , having passed to the sixtieth year of my life , ( the date of the life of paul the aged ) within a few days ; and my lord only knows how soon my sun may set , though i cannot say , my natural vigour either of body or mind is in the least abated ; but i am mortal , and am loath to be surprized unawares . 2. i see a great failure in my self and other christians in this , that terminate our studies and endeavours in getting a title , and then think all is well , we need no more ; but surely there is much behind ; we have abundance of work upon our hands for obtaining actual meetness , without which we cannot evidence our habitual meetness . 3. i never yet met with any treatise upon this subject , though it be of great importance for every christian ; surely heaven is worth minding , and methinks abrahams query in another case should be ours , gen. 15.8 . o lord god , whereby shall i know that i shall inherit it ? 4. i have observed a commendable practice of some christians ; which is , to order some books to be distributed at their funerals : the first that i knew of that nature was mr. r. a. his vindiciae pietatis , and some other practical pieces , which by gods blessing have done much good : such a memorandum would i bequeath as my last legacy to you , my dear people , amongst whom i have laboured above thirty nine years in publick and private , serving the lord in some measure of integrity and humility , with many tears and temptations , through variety of dispensations , excommunications , banishments , confiscations and imprisonments ; but out of all these the lord hath delivered me , and set my feet in a large place , and god that searcheth the heart knows what hath been my design in studying , preaching , praying , preparing you a place to meet in to worship god ; and what are the agonies and jealousies of my spirit to this day , least i leave any of you unconverted , and so cashiered from gods presence at the great day ; and now at last i solemnly charge you before god , and the lord jesus christ , and the elect angels , that you rest not in a graceless state another day , lest that be the last day , and you be found unready : and i solemnly require you that have a principle of grace , gird up your loins , trim your lamps , and observe these few rules , and the dispositions mentioned in this small treatise : i only hint further ; be much in the love of god : dayly act faith on christ : walk in the spirit : design gods glory : intermit not holy duties : be not content therein without communion with god : mingle religion with civil acts : increase every grace : redeem time : profitably converse with gods children : aim at perfection : maintain tender consciences : keep strict accounts : study the life of heaven : be still doing or getting good : set god before your eyes : trample on worldly things : live in dayly view of death : be nothing in your own eyes : be much in heavenly praises : say , o lord , who am i , and what is my fathers house , that thou hast brought me hitherto ? what is man , what am i , the least and worst of the children of men , that the heart of god should be working for me , and towards me , in infinite bowels of eternal love ! that the lord jesus should shed his heart-blood for me ! that the holy spirit should take possession of me ! that god should provide such an inheritance for me ! assure me of it by precious promises , seal it to me in his holy supper ! that ever god should give me an heart to fear him : heal so many backslidings : prevent total apostacy : pardon all my iniquities : vouchsafe me such large priviledges : supply my wants : hear my prayers : help me over so many a foul place in my journey : brought me to the borders of canaan : given me so many foretasts of the promised land : tells me the jordan of death shall be driven back , and give me a safe passage to heaven : o blessed , blessed be god , all this is from sovereign grace : god doth what he pleaseth : i would not exchange this hope for the worlds possessions : eternity will be little enough to be taken up in the praises of rich grace . thus the gracious soul may quickly lose it self in these divine praises and contemplations , as that zealous german martyr , giles titleman , who in his prayers was so ardent , kneeling by himself in some secret place , that he seemed to forget himself , being called many times to meat ; he neither heard nor saw them that stood by him , till he was lift up by the arms , and then gently he would speak to them as one waked out of a deep sleep : oh that there were such a spirit in gods children ! that our hearts were so intent on things above , as to pass through the world as unconcerned in it ! then shall you be content to leave all , and go to christ ! then will you not be afraid of the king of terrors , though armed with halberts , racks , fires , gibbets ; then will you have a brighter crown , and higher degrees of glory , and shall shine as the brightness of the firmament , and as one star differs from another in glory , so you will be set in the highest orb ; and having had largest capacities on earth , shall have fullest joys in heaven : i will conclude with the blessed apostles prayer 1 th. 3.12 , 13. the lord make you to increase and abound in love one towards another , and towards all men , even as we do towards you ; to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before god , even our father , at the coming of our lord jesus christ with all his saints : amen and amen , thus prayeth your servant in our dearest lord , oliver heywood . colos. 1.12 . giving thanks unto the father , which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light . chap. i. the text opened ; doctrines raised and explained . prayer and praise are the two wings upon which a devout soul mounts heavenwards : prayer fetcheth down occasions of praise : these two are as chariots and factors to maintain intercourse betwixt god and his children . paul was a great man in both , for after the inscription , subscription and benediction in this epistle , he falls to praise , ver . 3. then to prayer , ver . 9. and in the text he falls again to praise and thanksgiving ; wherein observe , 1. the duty , praise . 2. the mercy for what . in the former observe , 1. the act , giving thanks . 2. the object , the father . 1. the act , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : it signifies a being of a good grace , having a very grateful spirit , and expressing it in words and actions . col. 3.15 be ye thank ful ; or be ye amiable one to another , or grateful , both in conferring and receiving benefits : but here it referrs to god. obs . 1. that thank fulness is the duty and property of a christian . thankful retribution for mercies is the study and enquiry of gracious souls ; psal . 116.12 . prayer and thanks are like the double motion of the lungs ; the air of mercy that is sucked in by prayer is breathed out again by the duty of praise . o happy christian that can and must in every thing give thanks ! 1 th. 5.18 . this is , ( christianorum propria virtus ) saith hierom , a practice proper to christians , to be heartily thankful for crosses , as job was ch . 1.21 . 2. here is the object of this thankfulness , that is god , under the notion and relation of a father : god imports glory and majesty ; father signifies mercy , love and clemency . doct. 2. it becomes christians to approach to god as an indulgent father . oh how much sweetness and endearedness is in this word father , therefore christ teacheth us to begin our prayers with [ our father ] ; this relation quickens our faith , and engageth gods love , bowels ; his care , power , and all for his children , matth. 6.32 . there 's comfort in a father , much more in an heavenly father : evil men may be good fathers , mat. 7.11 . how much more will a good god be a good father ; [ tam pater nemo , tam pius nemo ] none can be so good , and so much a father as he . 2. the matter and ground of thankfulness referrs to god the fathers care and kindness to all his children : this is twofold . 1. providing for them an inheritance . 2. preparing them for it . 1. providing for all his children an inheritance ; wherein are considerable four things ; 1. the nature of heaven , inheritance . 2. the quality of it , in light . 3. the inhabitants , saints . 4. their right to it , partakers . a word of every of these . 1. the nature of this coelestial glory ; it is called an inheritance , partly alluding to israels possessing the land of canaan ; partly to signifie that it is not given us for our merits , but by his free-grace and mercy , therefore called the reward of the inheritance , col. 3.24 . because it is conveyed as by a father to his child , of bounty , and not earned as wages by a servant , due from his master . doct. 3. god as a father gives heaven as an inheritance to his children . all gods children are heirs of god and joint heirs with christ . rom. 8.17 . oh happy souls that are heirs to such an inheritance ! 2. the property or quality of this inheritance ; it s in light : which is meant , ( 1. ) of the light of truth or faith ; or that gospel light whereby gods children are savingly enlightened : or , ( 2. ) of light of glory , where there is perfect light and delight , joy and felicity , for god dwelleth in inaccessible light. 1 tim. 6.16 . doct 4. heaven is a place and state of unexpressible light. rev. 21.23 . and the city had no need of the sun , neither of the moon to shine in it , for the glory of god did lighten it , and the lamb is the light thereof . 3. here is the proprietors , the owners of this glorious inheritance ; i. e. saints , sanctified souls ; it s purchased for them , vouchsafed to them only ; others have nothing to do with it ; no dirty dogs or filthy swine shall trample on this golden pavement . 1 cor. 6.9 . rev. 21.27 . doct. 5. only saints ( or sanctified souls ) are heirs of heaven . without holiness no man shall see god , heb. 12.14 no grace no glory . the inhabitants of that city are called , yea , are really holy . isa . 43.4 . 4. but how come they by this high honour ? have they a good title to it ? answ . yes , they are partakers of it ; so faith the text , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] either that which falls to them by lot ; then it is the decision of heaven ; these are joyned : acts 8.21 . or else by a persons own choice , which ( our lord saith ) shall not be taken away . luke 10.42 . doct. 6. every saint of god is already partaker of an heavenly inheritance . the promise , ( or the mercy promised ) is sure to all the seed , rom. 4.16 . why so ? because it is by grace on gods part , and by faith on our part : and god will have it so of his good pleasure . a sincere christian partakes of heaven . 1. in pretio . ] in purchase : the price is laid down for it ; it s a purchased possession , eph. 1.14 . 2. in promisso . ] it s theirs by promise , as canaan was israels by promise ; and that land of promise was a type of this heavenly inheritance . jam. 1.11 . 3. in capite . ] saints partake of heaven by their union to their head who is in heaven ; eph. 2.6 . — and hath made us sit together in heavenly places in christ jesus . oh happy souls ! 4. in primitiis . ] in the first-fruits or earnest ; 2 cor. 5.5 . — who hath also given unto us the earnest of his spirit . [ pignus redditur , arrha retinetur : ] a pledge is restored , but an earnest is retained , because its part of the bargain . a faithful man will not run back from his bargain , nor lose his earnest : nor will the covenant-keeping god : he is faithful who hath promised , who will also do it . 2. the other part of the text in the second branch , is not only providing an inheritance for his children , but preparing them for that inheritance . solomon saith , wisdom is good with an inheritance . eccl. 7.11 . alas , what should a fool do with a great estate ? yet it often falls out so , that worst men have most of the world : but , saith mr. jo. dalleus on this text ; it is not so here as in worldly things , that fall into the hands of those that are most uncapable to improve them right ; but god gives a suitable share of true wisdom with this inheritance : as when saul was anointed king , he was turned into another man ; 1 sam. 10.6 . alas , what is heaven to us unless we be fit for it ? our dear lord jesus that went to prepare a place for us , must also prepare us for that blessed place . in this second branch we have , 1. something implyed . 2. something expressed . 1. that which is implyed , is that no man is fit or meet for heaven by nature . thence observe , doct. 7. that every soul by nature is altogether unmeet for heaven . 2 cor. 3.5 . not that we are [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] sufficient or meet ( for its the same word with this ) of our selves to think any thing as of our selves . alas , what merit , either of congruity or condignity , can there be in man to obtain heaven ? if he cannot think well , sure he cannot will well , act well , to deserve or fit himself for such a mercy ; especially since man by nature is a child of wrath , a limb of satan , dead in sins , banisht out of paradice , hath no heart to look that way ; nay hath enmity in his mind to what is good . god doth all : [ dignatus est nos assumere . ] the sun of righteousness shines on these dunghil souls : he alone makes vessels of honour : he fills them with the treasures of grace , and fits them for glory : [ inhabiles habiles faciens ; ] of unfit making them fit , i. e. meet for his glorious presence . 2. here is something expressed that is held forth in these two propositions . doct. 8. that all those and only those that shall eternally partake of the heavenly inheritance in the other world , are made meet for it in this world. doct. 9. that its a transcendent mercy worth thanking god for , to be made meet for heaven . of these two last in their order . 1. that all those , and only those that shall partake of the heavenly inheritance in the other world , must be made meet for it in this world. all that i shall do in the doctrinal part is , 1. for explication . 2. confirmation . 1. to shew what this meetness is , then prove the necessity of it . chap. ii. distinctions about meetness for heaven : what habitual meetness is : both relative and real . 1. for a more methodical proceeding in explaining this subject , i shall premise some distinctions , by which you may understand what that meetness for heaven is , that i mean. 1. there is an [ aptitudo legalis & evangelica , ] a legal and evangelical meetness . since the fall of man , no meer man can fulfil all righteousness , or by his own power attain to any thing pleasing to god ; so a legal meetness is not attainable ; we have all sinned and come short of the glory of god : see rom. 3.23 , 24. ch . 8.2 , 3 , 8. gal. 3.10.13 . 2 dist . there is an [ aptitudo operum & personae , i. e ] meetness of works , and of the person : this explains the former in the covenant of works , the person was accepted for the works sake ; but in the covenant of grace the work is accepted for the persons sake : if the person be accepted in the beloved , eph. 1.6 . god owns both person and offering , as he did abel , heb. 11.4 , 6. but what proportion can the best services of the best men bear to this eternal reward ? luke 17.10 . nor can humane sufferings purchase this glory to be revealed . rom. 8.18 . 3 dist . there is [ aptitudo perfecta & progressiva , ] a perfect , compleat meetness for heaven : this is compatible only to the spirits of just men made perfect , heb. 12.23 . but who can say i have made my heart clean ; i am pure from my sin . prov. 20.9 . alas , we know but in part , and so love but in part . 1 cor. 13.12 . even paul that was perfect in point of sincerity , yet was not already perfect in point of degree , but was pressing forward , phil. 3 . 12-15 . christians here below are but [ in via non in patria ] in the road to perfection , singing the song of degrees , and not in the height of zion . sincerity is gospel perfection , and the christians preparation , together with a progressive motion . 4 dist . there is [ aptitudo habitualis & actualis ] an habitual and an actual meetness for heaven ; or which may be thus distinguished ; there is a [ jus haereditarium , and a jus aptitudinale ] an hereditary right , and an aptitude or actual fitness for this inheritance : my text includes both , and i shall open both ; for they are both necessary in their kind ; and in this sense gods children are said to be counted worthy of kingdom of god , 2 thess . 1.5 . and saith christ , they shall walk with me in white , for they are worthy , rev. 3.4 . and therefore are we exhorted to walk worthy of god , who hath called us unto his kingdom and glory , 1 th. 2.12 . it imports a conveniency , suitableness , answerableness in a limited gospel-sence ; like children of such a father , as heirs of such an inheritance , as candidates for such an office and honour : there is a ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) seemliness appertaining to every calling ; princes , magistrates , ministers , must have a decency and suitableness to their profession : so here . well then , i shall chiefly speak to this twofold meetness . 1. habitual meetness , which is in opposition to perfect unmeetness , i. e. a state of nature , unregeneracy . 2. an actual meetness , which is contra-distinct from imperfect meetness ; and both are necessary in their kind . quest . 1. what is that habitual meetness for the inheritance of the saints in light , without which men can never attain to it , or have eternal possession of it ? answ . this habitual meetness consists in a twofold change ; 1. relative . 2. real . 1. it consists in a relative change : this also is twofold , viz. ( 1. ) justification . ( 2. ) adoption . ( 1. ) the poor sinner is standing at gods bar as a guilty malefactor , under the dreadful sentence of a just condemnation , for all the world is become guilty , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) subject to judgment , before god , rom. 3.19 . not a son of adam can plead innocence . it s well if we be as the blushing rose , the lilly-whiteness is lost . he that believeth not is condemned already , john 3.18 . and the wrath of god abides on him , verse 36. it was on him when he was born ; and it abides still on him , if not taken off him by justification : who can think the prince will promote him to honour that is under an attainder for treason ? he must be cleared of that charge , or he is fitter for execution then promotion . pardon must precede preferment . you must be first in christ jesus , and then there is no condemnation to you , rom. 8.1 . you must be received into favour before you be promoted to honour . the sinner must be justified before he can be glorified . rom. 8.30 . never think of ascending to heavenly glory under the load of guilt : that guilt will shut heavens gates against thee : the guilt of one sin will press a soul , ( yea , millions of souls ) to hell ; for the wages of sin is death . rom. 6.23 . o therefore , what need is there of justification as the introduction to salvation ! you must be justified by his grace , if ever you be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life , tit. 3.7 . never think your sins will be blotted out in the day of refreshing , except you repent here and be converted : acts 3.19 . you must be justified by faith that you may have peace with god here , and so rejoyce in hope of the glory of god : rom. 5.1 , 2. you cannot think to leap from the bar to the throne : but must be cleared by order of justice , through christs satisfaction in the court of god. this , this is absolutely necessary to a meetness for this heavenly inheritance . ( 2. ) adoption : this is another relative change . alas , by nature we have quite lost our filiation , and so forfeited our childs part of the heavenly inheritance : we are ( exules a regno ) banisht out of paradice , and there are placed cherubims , and a flaming sword , which turns every way to keep the way of the tree of life : gen. 3.24 . yea , we are voluntarily gone into a far countrey , have wasted our substance , disowned our fathers house , are feeding swinish lusts , and feeding our selves with poor husks of worldly things ; and till we be adopted and admitted again into our fathers house , we are not fit to eat the childrens bread , or heir the childs inheritance : god himself hath contrived a way how to settle the best inheritance on such as he finds strangers . jer. 3.19 . but i said , how shall i put thee among the children , and give thee a pleasant land , a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations ? then i said thou shalt call me , my father , and shalt not turn away from me : oh blessed contrivance ! and will any think to cross gods contrivance ! shall mens solly challenge infinite wisdom ! is not the heavenly inheritance gods own to give ? and doth not our lord say , such honour shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my father . matth. 20.23 . can you think to wrest heaven out of gods hands whether he will or not ? and must he falsifie his word to gratifie you ? will he set the crown on rebels heads ? or give this inheritance of saints to the devils slaves ? no , doubtless you must be adopted sons , or no lawful heirs . bastards heir no land. jephthahs brethren thrust him out , saying , thou shalt not inherit in our fathers house , for thou art the son of a strange woman . judg. 11.2 . and what bold intruder art thou , that darest expect to claim such an inheritance as heaven without the relation of a son ? adam its true , was gods son by creation ; but alas , he and we in him have quite lost that sweet relation ; and we must either be restored in christ , gods well-beloved son , or we are like to be banisht for ever : god sent his own son , — that through him we might receive the adoption of sons : gal. 4.5 , 6. and have you the spirit of his son in your hearts to cry abba father ? which elsewhere is called the spirit of adoption . rom. 8.15 . tell me not that all men are the sons of god : so were the devils : god will make you know that this is a peculiar priviledge , known to very few , injoyed by fewer ; but it is the fruit of singular love , and is attended with this unparalell'd advantage of seeing god as he is ; and a day is coming when these sons and heirs in disguise shall then be like their father ; 1 joh. 3.1 , 2. then atheists that will not believe that there is any such difference among men , and bold intruders , that dreamed of a right , without pretending or proving their adoption , shall be utterly confounded . 2. but besides this relative change , there is also a real change upon those souls that god makes meet for heaven , and this consists in 1. conversion to god. 2. covenanting with god. 1. conversion to god : this is expressed in the words immediately following my text , ver. 13. who hath delivered us from the power of darkness , and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear son. this is a description of conversion , and a preparation for glory : compare this with acts 26.18 . see there the priviledge annexed : observe it , conversion makes saints , and only saints partake of this inheritance : if all the men on earth , and angels in heaven , should joyn their forces together , they could not save one unconverted soul : truth it self hath asserted it with a solemn asseveration , matth. 18.3 . verily i say unto you , except ye be converted , and become as little children , ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven : the like doth the same mouth assert with a fourfold asseveration ; joh. 3.3 , 5. i wonder often how careless sinners ners that are conscious to themselves that never any such work passed on them , can eat and drink , or sleep quietly , and never so much as ask this question ; am i converted or am i not ? if i be , when or how did my soul pass through the pangs of the new birth ? what tears , fears , what groans and agonies hath it cost me ? what fruits hath it brought forth in me ? where 's this new creature , the divine nature , the image and seed of god working heaven-wards ? what stamp , what sheep-mark can i shew , as the fruit of gods being at work on my soul , and an earnest of this glorious inheritance ? but if there be no such change , ( as i doubt there is not ) how can i be quiet ? sure my pillow is soft , or my heart hard , and my conscience seared , that hear or read my own doom in such a scripture , from the mouth of the judge himself , standing at heaven-gates and shutting me out , as if he named me , saying , be gone thou unconverted sinner ; i know thee not ; converting grace never changed thy heart or life ; though i often summoned thee , and knockt at thy door , yet thou hadst no heart or desire to turn from thy sinful ways , nor so much as fall down on thy knees , and ask this grace of conversion of me , or use the means for it , or so much as examine whether thou hast it or no , but wentest on in a golden dream , and now i must tell thee roundly to thy cost , depart , oh be gone from my presence thou poor wretched unconverted sinner : this state , this place is for none but sincere converts . 2. covenanting with god : when the glorious day of our lords appearing shall spring , he calls forth his covenanted people to crown his gracious promises with compleat performance . psal . 50 5. gather my saints together , those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice : q. d. i take little notice of common or outside worshippers , they shall be set on my left hand ; but there is amongst you some serious souls that look beyond the ordinance , i have observed them , they have solemnly devoted themselves to me , and accepted me in a covenant-way : these , these are the persons , and these only , that i have taken for the lot of my inheritance , and for whom i have laid up a safe and satisfying inheritance : but to the uncovenanted soul , or hypocritical pretender to covenant , god will say , what hast thou to do to declare my statutes , or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth ? psal . 50.16 . what ground hast thou to own me ? or to claim any thing from me for this world or another . man as a creature can have no intercourse with god , but in a covenant-way ; much less can a sinner expect any good from god , but by vertue of covenant : but what canst thou say for this promised inheritance , that hast nothing to do with the promises ? for all the promises of god in christ are yea and amen ; 2 cor. 1.20 . but thou hast never spent one hour solemnly to review and renew thy baptismal covenant , and ingage thy soul to god ; and since thou art an alien from the commonwealth of israel , and a stranger from the covenant of promise , by consequence thou art without christ , and without god in this world , and therefore without hope of a better state in the other world : eph. 2.12 . but strangers and forreigners are become fellow-citizens with the saints of this new jerusalem ; ver . 19. how is that ? doubtless by taking this sacred oath of fealty and allegiance to the king of heaven : by covenant you have a title to all the good things of earth and heaven . sinner think of this , thou that lovest to be loose , and scornest the setters of this holy league ; thou dost in effect say , i will have none of god , christ , pardon , heaven : if i must have them on no other terms , but under such bonds and obligations , let them take this heavenly inheritance for me : and dost thou think this golden chain of honour , worse then the devils iron fetters of sin , and amazing reward of flames and torments ? if you need not god and heaven , be it known to you , god needs not you ; but can strain for the revenue of glory to his justice in your necessary confusion , because you would nor voluntarily submit to his terms for so glorious an inheritance . chap. iii. what actual meetness for heaven is in the exercises of graces . 2. the next general head i am to treat of , is to discover what is the souls actual meetness for this glorious inheritance , supposing the foresaid habitual meetness , both relative and real : for all a christians work is not done when his state is changed , and he becomes a saint ; nay his work doth but now begin as a saint , to get into an actual meetness for glory . this , this is the business of a child of god : the former hath a remote meetness ; this puts into a proximate or nearer er capacity for heaven . the former renders the christians state safe , this sweet and comfortable . this is the man that hath set all things in order for another world , that hath nothing to do , but to pass over the jordan of death into the canaan of heaven ; this is the man that 's point blank meet , mouth-meet ( as it were ) for heaven , fit to take his flight into another world : interpreters think this word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] sufficient , or meet , answers to the hebrew word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dai ] . lev. 12.8 . if she be not able to bring a lamb : [ heb. thus , her hand find not sufficiency of a lamb. ] the word is attributed to god , who is , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , god allsufficient , gen. 17.1 . ] but as god is sufficient and suitable to all his creatures , so by the same almighty grace he will make creatures suitable to his mind and ends : so then this word is rather to be rendered by [ idoneus ] meet , then [ dignus ] worthy ; yet worthy in a gospel qualified sense . observe it , those judge themselves most unworthy , whom god and man oft judge most fit and worthy , luke 7.4 . they said , he is worthy for whom he should do this ; but ver . 6. himself saith , i am not worthy thou shouldst enter under my roof . and thus it is with a gracious soul , looking up and seeing the holiness of gods infinite majesty ; looking forward and beholding the moment of eternity , and purity of heaven ; looking inward and backward , and seeing his many iniquities and great deformity : oh , cryes the sensible christian , who is fit for heaven ? oh how unmeet am i for this glorious state or high honour ? it s true , but grace makes of rebels , subjects ; of subjects , servants ; of servants , sons ; of sons , heirs ; of heirs he so disposeth and qualifieth them , that nothing will content them below this inheritance of the saints in light ; and their spirits shall be so suited to it that the great god will judge them worthy to obtain that world and the resurrection from the dead , — to be equal to the angels , as being the children of god , and the children of the resurrection . see luke 20.35 , 36. as the christian by conversion is the man cut and shaped out for heaven , so whiles he lives he is and must be still a squaring , hammering , modelling for further meetness for it ; and as god is said to work us for the self-same thing , 2 cor. 5.5 . [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] by curious contrivances of efficacious grace , to put sinners into a capacity for glory : as goldsmiths who burnish gold ; and carvers or artificial ingravers in wood and stone , who make one part of their work suit and fit another : so also christians themselves must work out their own salvation , phil. 2.12 . [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] i. e. leave nothing undone which god hath injoyned you to do in this world , in order to a due preparation for heaven . this in general is a meetness . more particularly , this actual meetness for heaven consists in these four things . 1. a lively exercise of suitable graces . 2. a clear evidence of our spiritual state . 3. a dispatching work off our hands . 4. a being mortified to time , and a longing to be in heaven . 1. a lively exercise of suitable graces : i. e. such graces as actually capacitate for glory ; its true every grace doth qualifie for glory , for grace is glory begun , and glory is grace consummate : but there are some graces that have a direct tendency to , and whereby a christian doth ( as it were ) lay hold on eternal life , as the word is , 1 tim. 6.12 , 19. e. g. ( 1. ) the grace of faith , which is the substance of things hoped for , and evidence of things not seen . heb. 11.1 . it ventures all upon a promise ; sees him that is in visible , ver . 27. and represents heavenly objects as close at hand , and embraceth them , v. 13. [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] drawing the object to them , as the word signifies : overlooking or overcoming all these worldly visible objects . faith spyes something beyond time or clouds , of more worth then all the world , and hazards all for the obtaining of it : when faith is upon the wing , it soars above the sun , and fetcheth down heavenly objects and incomes into the soul : it is like the spyes , and brings a cluster of the grapes of canaan ; even joy and peace in believing , rom. 15.13 . yea , joy unspeakable and full of glory ; 1 pet. 1.8 . yea , the lowest actings of the faith of adherence dare commit the keeping of the soul into his creators hands , 1 pet. 4.19 . and is perswaded , god will keep that which he hath committed to him , 2 tim. 1.12 . and this composedness is an antedating of heaven . alas , faith the poor christian , i know not certainly how i stand for heaven ; i dare not yet say my faith will end in the saving of my soul ; but this i dare say , god is merciful to souls ; christ dyed for sinners ; he is faithful that hath promised ; the covenant is well ordered , and sure some souls shall be saved , and why not i ? i hang on his free-grace , i come with tears in my eyes , confession in my mouth , grief in my heart for my sins ; i am weary of my burden and labour in my travels god-wards , who can tell but. i may find rest ? he hath said , those that thus come to him he will in no wise cast out ; i will venture this way : i have tryed all other ways but they are in vain ; it s but losing my labour , which i am sure i shall not , if my faith be but sincere : this soul is in the confines of the promised land ; and is meet for this inheritance . ( 2. ) hope . as faith brought heaven down to the souls eye , so hope carries out the soul to this future enjoyment . this anchor is cast into the vast ocean of eternity , but finds sure anchor-hold , for it enters into that within the vail , heb. 6.19 . and this centers the tossing sinner on the rock of ages : it sees heaven opened , and it self in gods time advanced with lazarus into abrahams bosom , and is content at present to bear the roughness and affronts he meets with in his way , saying , these things will be mended when i get home : nay , the text saith , we are saved by hope , rom 8.24 . hope anticipates its revenues , and like a young heir takes up upon trust , and lives at the rate of that inheritance he is heir to . thus the christian gets everlasting consolation , because he hath good hopes through grace , 2 thess . 2.16 . o saith the believer , divine revelations have so fully demonstrated the reality of future glory , that my faith no more doubts of it then of going to bed at night , and why should not my flesh ( and spirit ) rest in hope ? psal . 16.9 . why should not then my heart be glad ? why may not my glory rejoyce ? yea , i will rejoyce in hope of the glory of god , for my hope will not make me ashamed . rom. 5.2 , 5. i dare venture my hopes and my all in this blessed covenant-bottom . my soul , hope thou in god , for i shall yet praise him , and that for ever . psal . 42.11 . ( 3. ) love : that 's a grace that shines brightest in its proper orb above ; but the more it is exercised here below , the more of heaven : love resembles the soul most to god , and raiseth the soul to an heavenly life : god is love , and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in god , and god in him . 1 joh. 4.16 . the soul that is carried out to god in pure flames of holy love , hath mounted already into the highest region , and bathes it self in those pure streams that raise and ravish the spirit in a continued extasie : the more love , the more fittedness for heaven : if love be increased and abound , our hearts are established unblameable — at his coming , 1 th. 3.12 , 13. yea , the more love , the more of heaven ; for what is our love , but a reflexion of gods love ; 1 joh. 4.19 . oh , saith the christian , i feel the sweet beams of the sun of righteousness warming my heart ; methinks those heavenly sparks have set me in a flame , that when i am musing the fire burns ; when i am praying or praising god , my soul mounts up to my lord as pillars of smoak ; and i love to be near him , and to be acting for him . oh how sweet is every love-letter that comes from him ! how pleasant are some tokens of love that come from the hand and heart of my beloved ! here is the soul that is meet for heaven . ( 4 ) humility and self-denyal . will you believe it ? the lower the christian casts himself down , the nearer heaven : but this is a truth ; matth. 5.3 . blessed are the poor in spirit , for theirs is the kingdom of heaven . god makes his court in the humble and contrite spirit ; isa . 57.15 . oh saith christian , this grace have i found in me , that duty is performed by me , this corruption have i mortified ; that burden have i born ; what say i ? that i have done this or that ? o no , by the grace of god , i am what i am , — i laboured , yet not i , but the grace of god , 1 cor. 15.10 . i dare not say any thing is my own but sin ; and what 's performed by me is mixt with sin and imperfection : [ horreo quicquid de meo est , ] i tremble for fear ( saith luther ) at any thing that is of mine own : i must not depend on mine own righteousness ; o that i may be found in christ ! i am nothing , can do nothing , deserve nothing but death and hell : if ever i be admitted into heaven , it must be upon the account of christ ; his merits upon the cross ; his intercession in heaven . that 's an excellent text , rev. 19.7 , 8. let us be glad and rejoyce , and give honour to him ; for the marriage of the lamb is come , and his wife hath made her self ready : but how is she ready ? why , to her was graunted , that she should be arrayed in fine linnen , clean and white ; for the sine linnen is the righteousness of saints . indeed it s no other then christs righteousness imputed : this is the upper garment that must not only cover our nakedness , but the tattered rags of our own righteousness , whether that relate to a glorious state of the church on earth or in heaven , i dispute not : but i am sure its the bravest suit that she can put on , and she will look trim in that only ; and woe to them that appear in their best inherent righteousness : let the proud self-justiciary say , [ coelum gratis non accipiam , ] i will not have heaven gratis , or for nothing , i will pay a proportionable rate for it ; then thou art like to go without it , for it s not saleable ware ; rom. 9.31 . but let a poor self-condemning publican come and beg pardon and heaven for christs sake , and god will not deny him : for he resisteth the proud , but gives grace and glory to the humble , jam. 4.6 . chap. iv. meetness for heaven , in clear evidences of title to it . 2. the next particular wherein a meetness for heaven doth consist is assurance , or grounded evidence of our title to this heavenly inheritance ; for no man is ready to go out of this world , but he that hath solid grounds of his safe estate for another world ; for doubts breed fears , and those lears beget unwillingness to go hence : he dare not dye that knows not whither he must go , and he is not meet for death that hath not used gods appointed means to obtain assurance , a thousand to one a soul at uncertainties hath been a slothful negligent soul , for in an usual way , diligence be gets assurance : for so saith the apostle , heb. 6.11 . we desire that every one of you would shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope , to the end that ye be not slothful ; ver . 12. so 2 pet. 1.10 . give diligence to make your calling and election sure : and what then ? why then , ver . 11. he adds , for so an entrance shall be ministred to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our lord and saviour jesus christ . a ship may make an hard shift to get sneaking into the harbor , with anchors lost , cables rent , sails torn , masts broken ; these get safe in , but with much ado ; but oh how gallantly , doth another ride in , to the credit of her master , good example to others , comfort and satisfaction to all in the ship , when she comes in with sails spread , flags up , trumpets sounding , and well victualled ; surely these come in bravely . this is just the difference betwixt a lazy professor that wants assurance , and an active christian in his voyage to this blessed haven . god requires this assurance ; means are appointed for attaining it ; serious christians have gained it , so mayest thou , and so must thou endeavour after it : you 'll say , how is it got ? by what means may a christian come to the assurance of his title to this heavenly inheritance , that he may be meet or fit to take possession of it at death ? i answer , in general it must be supposed that you have a title , which is your habitual meetness , or else how can you be assured of it ? you that are unregenerate , you have a greater work to pass through before you are capable of obtaining assurance : but supposing this , i answer . 1. an holy diligence in increasing , exercising graces , and performance of duty . this i hinted before . acts evidence habits : improving grace is gods way to clear up grace : blowing up sparks will best discover them : a flame is sooner discerned then a spark in the embers : christians by stirring up the gift of god discover it : 2 tim. 1.6 . motion is a good evidence of life : activity for god , and tendency heaven-ward will put you out of doubt : all duties tend to assurance , or spring from it : striving , running , fighting , will be crowned with clear evidence : god loves to crown diligence : to him that hath ( i. e. useth and improveth well what he hath ) shall be given , and he shall have abundance ; ( i. e. more grace and the comfort of it ) as the collision of flint and steel , begets light ; so the acting of grace produceth this fruit , viz. assurance : for the work of righteousness is peace , and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever . isa . 32.17 . now , now , the soul is ready for glory , when he is in duty , above duty , with god in the lively actings of grace , which is a part of , and a prologue to glory . the christian is going from strength to strength , till he appear before god in zion . oh happy soul that is thus upon the wing ! 2. reflection upon heart and life , and comparing both with the word of god. this is gods way to get assurance : have i the conditions of gospel-promises , faith and repentance ? do those graces within me answer the characters of such in the scriptures ? doth my soul eccho to the experiences of saints in the word of god ? can i follow the rules and prescriptions that my lord hath laid down ; to deny my self , take up his cross and follow him ? have i the essential characters of a christian ? i dare not believe satan and my own treacherous heart ; i will examine and prove my self ; 2 cor. 13.5 . i will not spare my self in any thing ; i will be impartial , and deal faithfully by disquisitive tryal now , as i would be found in the decisive tryal at the last day : it s a matter of life and death : i will lay judgment to the line : i will go to the law and to the testimony : the word must judge me at the great day , it shall be my judge now : no matter what the world saith of me ; nor must i be determined by the votes of the best christians , or godly ministers : i must , and will , and do prove mine own work , and then i shall have rejoycing in my self alone , and not in another , gal. 6 4. 3. appealing and approving the heart to god. alas , the best christian is too apt to be partial in his own case , or blind at home ; our minds are as ill set as our eyes , neither of them apt to look inwards ; and when we do look , alas , we are apt to look through a false or flattering glass , or our eye is vitiated with bad humours ; and therefore must we with job appeal to god , ch . 10.7 . thou knowest that i am not wicked : and ch . 23.10 . he knoweth the way that i take : and though david had communed with his own heart , and his spirit had made diligent search , psal . 77.6 . yet he challengeth god to a further privy search ; psal . 26.2 . ezamine me , o lord , and prove me ; try my reins , and my heart . and again , psal . 139.23 . search me , o god , and know my heart ; try me , and know my thoughts : not as though god were ignorant of them till he searcht ; but it s spoken after the manner of men : and that god might further acquaint david , with the secrets of his heart . thus the sincere christian faith , lord , i set my self before thee as a glass in the sun ; look upon me , look through me ; thou knowest all things ; see how my heart is affected towards thee ; discover to me the inmost working of my soul ; if there be any secret guile in folding it self in the lurking-places of my heart , bring it to light ; if there be any flaw in my evidences , let me see it before it be too late : i am too apt , through self-love to judge the best , but do thou declare my state and my frame as it is : thou that must be my judge shalt be my witness . my witness is in heaven , and my record is on high ; job 16.19 . here 's a soul usually comforted in his integrity , and such an one is meet for heaven . 4. praying to god for the shinings and sealings of his spirit : for indeed let all these means be used , yet evidence will not come unless god be pleased to shine upon his own grace in the soul : my conscience , saith paul , bearing me witness in the holy ghost , rom. 9.1 . and rom. 8.16 . the spirit it self beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of god. this indeed is the sun-light assurance . this alone scatters all mists , answers all objections , banisheth all doubts and fears ; and oh what an honour and satisfaction is it to a child of god , that the third person of the sacred trinity should come down and give in its infallibe testimony at the bar of a believers conscience ! this is like the son of god coming down into our nature , and dying for us . oh transcendent condescention ! oh unparallell'd priviledge of gods children ! yet this is purchased by christ , and promised to believers , not only to be a witness , but a seal . 2 cor. 1.22 . and 5.5 . eph. 1.13 . this is often , yea ordinarily given after believing ; and when it comes , it brings its own evidence along with it : so that the perplexed child of god , after many fore conflicts , struglings , ruggings , sad thoughts of heart , comes at last to some consistency , as to expel fears , cares , doubts , and now at last is brought to that , that he no more questions gods love then his faithfulness ; and this usually comes in after some notable wrestlings at the throne of grace in prayer , according to that joh. 16.24 . hitherto ye have asked nothing in my name : ( i. e. very little comparatively , and as you shall do . ) ask and ye shall receive , that your joy may be full . god will have his child to beg when he designs to give , to exercise our obedience , and to honour his own ordinance : then he gives assurance , and the joy of his salvation ; and now the believing soul is meet to be translated into the joy of his lord. but you will say , is none meet for heaven but such as have assurance ? then what shall a poor doubting soul say of it self , that is dark , and much discouraged as many a good soul is ? answ . 1. a title to this inheritance is necessary , but knowledge of this title is not absolutely necessary . many have dyed safely , though under clouds . our lord himself , cryed dying , my god , my god , why hast thou forsaken me ? there was relation , my god , yet in some sense he was forsaken . 2. there 's degrees of assurance ; as he that said , lord i believe , help thou mine unbelief . few enjoy a full plerophory , and those that have it , yet have it not at all times . mr. pauls bains said dying , sustentation i have , but suavities spiritual i do not feel . 3. it s one thing what god doth in an arbitrary way of suspending the comforts of his spirit from the best of his saints , ( yea he with-held them from his own son ) and another thing , what may , and usually is , the effect of mans sloth and negligence ; which is too commonly our case ; as mr. dod answered him that complained of want of assurance , why man , assurance may be had , and what have you been doing all this while ? 4. yet this will hold good , that a clear evidence of our title is a great meetness and readiness for death : for though assurance be not necessary [ ad esse ] to the being of a christian ; yet it s necessary [ ad bene esse ] of a christian , i. e. to his well being , or comfortable passage through , or parting out of this world ; for if we must draw near to god in a duty with full assurance of faith , heb. 10.22 . much more at death . oh what a vast difference i● there betwixt a soul carried 〈◊〉 the wing of faith , and flames o● love , in an extasie of joy , and the poor doubting , heartless , disconsolate soul ! the former is like some high mountains , that are above storms and clouds , as they say olympus is clear and beautiful ? oh the calmness and serenity of the well assured christian ! he hath a double heaven , well at present , better presently ; it s but shooting this gulf , crossing this jordan , passing this stile , as dr. taylor said , and i shall be in my fathers house . death it self , as terrible as it is , in it self and to others , is a stingless serpent ; my friend and fathers servant sent to fetch me home ; angels shall guard me ; my lord will bid me welcome ; my christian friends gone before will make heaven ring with shouts of joy at my landing safe , and my soul shall ever be with the 〈◊〉 but alas , the poor doubting soul , whose evidences are not clear , cryes out , alas , dye i must , and dye i dare not ; i dare not say god is my god , christ my saviour , the spirit my sanctifier , promises the charters that convey the inheritance to others i cannot apply ; whither i am going i know not ; god carries strangely to me ; i remember god and am troubled ; guilt stares me in the face ; i am conscious to my self of thousands of sins ; and though i have been long bungling about faith and repentance , yet i am not sure they are sincere and saving , and whether god will receive my sad departing soul : [ anxius vixi , dubius morior , as that great man said , ] i have lived under fears , i dye under doubts , and god knows what will become of me , and i may thank my self ; alas , this is the fruit of my sloth , security , my slipping into sin backslidings from god , intermittings of duty , careless and heartless performances ; wo is me , what will become of me ! these are the astonishing thoughts of a poor doubtful dying soul : and is this man meet for heaven ? he may be right for the main , but he cannot make death welcome . chap. v. meetness for heaven in dispatching our work here , off our hands . 3. the next thing wherein our meetness for this blessed inheritance doth consist , is in dispatching our main work in the world , that god sent us to do ; whatever that is god expects we should dispatch it , and get it done ; this we must all address our selves chearfully to do , and be very diligent in doing it , eccles . 9.10 . whatsoever thine hand findes , and do it with thy might . this is 〈◊〉 a time of working , the other world is a day of retribution ; and when the child of god hath wrought his days work , it s a fit time to go to bed. thus our dear lord tells his father , joh. 17.4 , 5. — i have finished the work that thou gavest me to do : and now , o father , glorifie me with thy own self . quest . what work is it that god sets before men to dispatch and manage ? answ . there is a fourfold work lyes upon a christians hands to manage in this world . 1. personal spiritual work , soul work , wherein god is more immediately concerned ; which is the glorifying of god , and saving his own soul : god hath involved these in one , they are inseparable companions , and its a mighty business : our lord saith , i have glorified 〈…〉 on the earth : this in 〈◊〉 measure is required of us , and the sincere christian makes it his design . thou knowest , oh my dear lord , what is that which hath lain highest in my heart ever since thou openedst mine eyes : the earnest desire of my soul hath been to be nothing in mine own eyes , that god alone may have all the glory ; i will confess and give glory to god ; i will , and through grace have desired , to make it my business to give glory to god by believing , repenting , obeying , fruit-bearing ; yea in eating , drinking , and whatsoever i do in natural , moral or civil actions . this , this is the mark i shoot at , my highest aim , that god in all things may be glorified , through jesus christ , 1 pet. 4.11 . and my business is in order thereto , to study how to please god , and to abound more and more , 1 thess . 4.1 . to obey gods commandments , and to do those things that are pleasing in his sight ; 1 joh. 3.22 . and oh that my person and prayers might be accepted in christ ! the salvation of my soul is more dear and precious then this poor perishing carcase . my grand enquiry is , what must i do to be saved ? this is the one thing needful ; other things are upon the by . oh that i could work out my own salvation ! i appeal to thee lord , how many griefs and groans , prayers and pains , fears and tears , this main concern hath cost me : i know there 's much of this work about my precious soul yet undone ; but thou knowest the main is dispatcht : i have fought a good fight , finisht my course , kept the faith . 2 tim. 4.7 . and now my land-business is done , let me go to sea , and launch out into that boundless ocean of eternal happiness . 2. temporal work , the business of our callings and particular occasions . this also the dying christian is drawing into a narrower compass , that he may voluntarily leave the world , before the world leave him ; the christian having had his head and hands full of business in his younger days , when old age comes , is glad of a [ quietus est , or ] writ of ease , that he may [ vacare deo ] be at more leisure for god in holy duties . methink , saith the good heart , i have had my share , both of the imployments and injoyments of this lower world , and am well content to shake hands therewith : i can behold with pity the laborious ants and pismires running upon this mole-hill , and busily scrambling for a little dust ; let them take it , god hath made my hands to be sufficient for me ; i have what will bear my charges to the grave ; let it go , i am glad i have so fairly parted with it ; i would not be to enter again upon this busie stage , or put forth to this tumultuous sea ; i have now other things to mind ; i have now the great work to mind , of setting streight my accounts for another world ; my peace to make with god ; an eternity to provide for , which the affairs of the world have thrust out , or distracted me in : this , this shall be my imployment for the future ; for what will it profit a man to gain the whole world , and lose his own soul ? i leave all these things to others that succeed me . 3. relative work . this also may be in some respects dispatched off our hands ; and the doing of it maketh more meet for heaven . this is not to be slighted , for it is needful in its place . when king hezekiah was sick unto death god sends him this message ; set thine house in order , for thou shalt dye and not live , isa . 38.1 . [ i. e. make thy will , and dispose of thy domestical concerns , so as may be a prevention of quarrels and contentions in thy family after thy decease : ] and ver . 3. 't is said , that hezekiah wept sore : why so ? was not hezekiah a godly man ? was not his soul in a readiness for death ? yes doubtless , for he dare appeal to god that he had walked before him in truth , and with a perfect heart : what then was the matter ? why hezekiah had yet no son , manasseh being not born till three years after this , q. d. lord , if it may be thy will , spare my life , and give me a son , for if i dye at this time , i know not how to dispose of the crown , i am likely to leave the church and state in miserable distraction and confusion , through the great uncertainty of a succession , and the proneness of the people to backslide to their false worship . god heard his prayer , gave him a lease of his life for fifteen years : but this is a duty to all , though it be more necessary to some then to others : but however its useful to settle the mind at ease , and prevent outward ill consequences , and inward disturbances of spirit ; but as that good man was loath to go off the stage heirless , so other circumstances may call for the settlement of their families by their last will and testament ; especially when children are left young , &c. yea , and others also may say , now god hath lengthened out my days to see my children brought up , and hopeful for religion , setled in callings and families ; there was but this child , or that business that i desired to see well ordered , as to my family-affairs : as jacob closed up his blessing of dan , gen. 19.48 . i have waited for thy salvation , o lord. now at last , since god hath wrought on such a child , i will say with old simeon ; lord , now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace , according to thy word , for mine eyes have seen thy salvation . luk. 2.29 , 30. 4. another work to be dispatcht off our hands is publick work . this concerns men in a publick or private capacity ; as when moses had led israel out of egypt , and through the wilderness , he had dispatcht his work , and having been faithful in gods house he was fit to dye . so when joshua had conquered many kings in canaan , divided the land to israel , he got a discharge and fell asleep . thus david , after he had served his own generation by the will of god , fell on sleep , and was laid unto his fathers ; acts 13.36 . and so aaron , samuel , and the rest of the prophets , marcht off the field by the order of our great lord general , when they had dispatcht their warfare , and delivered their message : your fathers , where are they ? and the prophets do they live for ever ? zech. 1.5 . and indeed to what purpose should they or we live , when our work is done ? especially when gods servants have not only dispatcht that work that concerns present , but future generations : for this is also the work of our present day . thus solomon built god an house for future times : and the apostle peter lays in for after ages , 2 pet. 1.15 . moreover , i will endeavour that you may be able after my decease , to have these things alwayes in remembrance ! it s the property of a good man to take care that religion may live when he is dead . ambrose saith of theodosius , i loved the man exceedingly , that when he dyed he was more sollicitous for the churches then his own danger . then indeed is the christian meet for heaven when he hath dispatcht his work on earth , and laid a foundation for good in after times ; however bears his testimony against corruptions in future generations ; as moses , deut. 31 . 26.-30 . quest . you will say how can any man be said to dispatch his work till his life be done ? surely the date of work and life run parallel . answ . 1. active ; doing work may be oft at an end , when suffering work is but a beginning ; for god often reserves suffering work to the last , that patience may have her perfect work ; that the christian may be perfect and entire wanting nothing : jam. 1.4 . the christian hath little to do , but lye in bed , and patiently wait gods pleasure ; and this usually follows on doing gods will : see hebr. 10.36 . this is indeed a great work to bear our burden patiently , chearfully , thankfully and fruitfully ; and say , well for the present , and will be better shortly ; the greatest part is then over . 2. though something be to be done or suffered , yet when the greatest part of a christians work is done , it may be said it is finished . so it was with our saviour ; joh. 17.4 . i have finished the work which thou gavest me to do . but was not dying upon the cross for the sins of men a principal piece of christs work ? answ . it was so nigh , that he speaks of it as already done ; so ver . 11. i am not in the world ; for he was just a going out of it : besides he had done most of his work , and was ready prest to do the work fully , the rest that was behind : and when our lord had tasted the vinegar , he said , it is finished . joh. 19.30 . this is a closing word , as giving up the ghost was a closing work . 3. sometimes divine providence takes off gods children from much of their work before their dayes be ended ; this is obvious to a rational eye that then their work is done , as sometimes by natural causes . thus isaac , jacob could presage their own death by the certain prognostick of death , namely , old age : others by some sickness , consumptions , which are usually mortal : others are taken off most of their work by persecutions , prisons , &c. others are taken off the stage of the world by violent death : as a dying minister said on the scaffold , isaac was old and knew not the day of his death , i am young , and know the day , manner , and instruments of my death : it s but a nodding the head , and death doth its office . now my work is ended . 4. yet once more : some godly ministers and christians have had a kind of instinct , that death was approaching even in their best health and younger days ; and so consequently of the dispatch of their work ; as some creatures by natural instinct foresee a falling house . so we find of bishop juel , that long before his sickness he foretold it approaching , and in his sickness , the precise day of his death ; he dyed in the fiftieth year of his age . the like we have of james andreas , who foretold the year , yea , hour of his death . i shall but add one instance of that holy man of god , and my dear friend mr. isaac ambrose , his surviving wife told me of his solemn farewel he gave to his daughter , and some other friends : yea , the very day of his death several friends from garstang visited him at preston , with whom he discoursed piously and chearfully , telling them he had finisht his work , having the night before sent his discourse of angels to the press , attended them to their horses , returned , dyed that evening in his parlour , where he had shut up himself for meditation . thus gods children are made meet for heaven by dispatching their work on earth . chap. vi. meetness for heaven , by being mortified to sin , time , and earthly objects , and being elevated to heavenly objects . 4. the last thing wherein meetness for heaven doth consist , is a being dead or being mortified to all things below and alive , and lively to god and things above . it is true , converting grace deadens the heart to all sublunaries , and lifts it up to divine things : yea , sometimes the first convictions take off the sinners spirit more then is meet , and quite damps the affections to lawful comforts , and makes him think he must do nothing in worldly business , but give himself to reading , praying and hearing ; but gods grace in a little time discovers this to be a temptation : yet as grace gets the upper hand , and the christian mellows and ripens for glory , so he is mortified and gradually transformed and advanced . 1. by further victory over his corruptions ; for as the christian perfects holiness in the fear of god , so he doth by degrees cleanse himself from all filthiness both of flesh and spirit . 2 cor. 7.1 . sin and grace being like two buckets at one chain , as the one comes up the other goes down : or as the ebbing and flowing of the sea , where it gaineth in one place it loseth in another ; the more holiness , the less sin . now the christian grows stronger and stronger ; the inward man is renewed day by day , 2 cor. 4.16 . so the body of sin is weakened , till at last , his fleshly lusts are laid at his feet , and spiritual sins pay tribute to the grace of god in his soul. pride , hardness , unbelief and security , keep the christian humble and watchful , jealous of himself , and maintaining spiritual conflicts against them , so occasionally he is a gainer by his losses , a riser by his falls ; however the christian grows more in sight of , and serves under the burden of sin ; as paul he cryes out , oh wretched man that i am , who shall deliver me from the body of this death ? rom. 7.24 . o saith the christian , what shall i do with this untoward heart ? i am weary of these daughters of heth : fain would i get rid of this indwelling corruption : sin i hope hath not dominion over me ; but oh when shall the time come that it shall have no indwelling within me ? but this is my grief and i must bear it , i am discontentedly contented with my burden : discontent with sin , content with gods pleasure : but there 's nothing makes me weary of the world but sin : could i live without sin , i should live without sorrow : the less sin the more of heaven : lord set me at liberty . 2. by loosening the affections from all worldly injoyments . oh how sapless and insipid doth the world grow to the soul that is a making meet for heaven . he is crucified to the world , and the world to him , gal. 6.14 . in vain doth this harlot think to allure me by her laying out her two fair breasts of profit and pleasure . surely i have behaved and quieted my self , as a child that is weaned of his mother : my soul is even as a weaned child ; psal . 131.2 . there 's no more rellish in these gaudy things to my pallate , then in the white of an egg ; every thing grows a burden to me , were it not duty to follow my calling , and be thankful for my injoyments . methinks i injoy my wife , husband and dearest relations , as if i had none ; i weep for outward losses , as if i wept not ; rejoyce in comforts below as if i rejoyced not ; 1 cor. 7.29 . — 30. my thoughts are taken up with other objects : the men of the world slight me , many seem to be weary of me , and i am as weary of them : [ non est mortale quod opto ] its none of these earthly things that my heart is set upon ; my soul is set on things above , my treasure is in heaven , and i would have my heart there also : i have sent before me all my goods into another country , and am shortly for flitting ; and when i look about me , i see a bare , empty house , and am ready to say with monica , [ quid hic facio ? ] what do i here ? my father , husband , mother , [ jerusalem above , ] my brethren , sister , best friends are above : methinks i grudge the world any thing of my heart , and think not these temporal visible things worth a cast of my eye compared with things invisible and eternal : 2 cor. 4. 18. i do not only say with afflicted job , chap. 7.16 . i loath it , i would not live alway ; but even with solomon in the top of all earthly felicity , eccl. 2.17 , 18. therefore i hated life , — yea i hated all my labour which i had taken under the sun : i. e. in comparison , or in competition with heavenly injoyments . 3. by spiritualizing worldly things , and using them as steps by which the soul mounts heaven-wards . the believer considers these things were made not for themselves but for higher ends : all things are as talents to trade with for another world , matth. 25.16 . for an account must be given of them ; not only ordinances and gospel-priviledges , but providences both sweet and severe , yea , creature-comfors , yea , all visible objects . thus our lord [ who had grace in perfection ] made notable spiritual improvement of outward water , bread , vines for holy ends ; and the more heavenly the christian is , the liker he is to his head , and so meeter for heaven . whatever this golden hand of faith toucheth is turned into gold. the christian fetcheth honey thus out of the hard rock : out of the eater comes meat . o saith the believing soul , if meat be so sweet to an hungry stomach , how much more excellent is gods loving kindness ? if drink be so refreshing to the thirsty soul , oh how sweet are those rivers of pleasures ? surely his love is better then wine . if it be so pleasant for the eyes to behold the sun , how amiable is the son of righteousness ? how sweet is home to the weary traveller ? and the haven to the weather-beaten mariner ? but infinitely sweet and contentful is heaven to the tempted , burdened , tired saint : methinks all i see , and do , and have , minds me of my home ; and saith , arise , depart , this is not thy rest . when i am abroad in a storm , i hast to a shelter : oh think i then , that i were with my dear lord , who is as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land ! when i consider my dim eyes , my decrepit feet , my palsie hands , my panting lungs ; oh think i , when shall this silver cord be loosned , and the bowl broken at the cistern ? that my soul may return to god. this is a pitiful ruinous cottage , when shall i be brought into the kings pallace ? in this my earthly tabernacle methinks i find now a pin loosened , and a stake taken down , then i say and sigh with the blessed apostle , 2 cor. 5.4 . we which are in this tabernacle do groan being burdened , not for that we would be uncloathed , but cloathed upon , that mortality might be swallowed up of life . here 's the soul taking wing to fly into another world. 4. the christian is made meet for heaven by intimate familiarity with the god of heaven : this indeed is the height of a christians perfection on earth . the fitter for , and freer intercourse with god , the fitter is that soul for glory . vvhat is heaven but the injoyment of god ? the nearer god the nearer heaven ; for where the king is there is the court : truly , saith the apostle , our fellowship is with the father , and with his son jesus christ . 1 jo. 1.3 . communion with god , and assimilation to god is the life and perfection of our religion ; and the former leads on to the latter , 2 cor. 3.18 . but we all with open face , beholding as in a glass the glory of the lord , are changed into the same image from glory to glory , as by the spirit of the lord. as grace increaseth glory increaseth ; and the vision of god ( tho' but through a glass , mightily increaseth grace , and fitteth for glory . now it is said of some great persons , that they have spoken more with god then with man. oh faith the christian , i could not tell how to spend my time if my soul had not sometime free access to , and intercourse with my best friend above . oh that it were oftner and longer ; [ sed rara hora , brevis moka ] it were a brave resemblance of heaven to have fixed communion with him ; but however i write that day as black and lost wherein god and my soul are not together . i cannot be content in a publick ordinance when i miss my beloved : i follow him into my closet , and there usually i find him whom my soul loveth : o then think i , that god would now stop this breath , and translate my soul into his immediate presence ! that as it s said of moses that he dyed at the mouth or kiss of god , deut. 34.5 . ( so some read it ) that he was kissed to death , or overpoured with divine embraces : vvould to god it were thus with me ! methinks i am loath to part with these first-fruits without a full harvest ; now let me go over jordan , and see that goodly mountain and lebanon : oh let me not return down into this tempting world , to be banisht again from thee ! o come thou down to me , or take me up to thee : its pity my soul should be thus tantalized with the sight of that which i cannot at present injoy ; well , since it is thy pleasure i am content to be dismounted and descend down to take my lot with the rising sons of adam ; only i will be stretching out neck and arms , and be looking for , and hasting to the coming of my dear lord. come lord jesus , come quickly : make hast my beloved , and be thou like to a roe , or to a young hart upon the mountains of spices . object . you will say , such an height of meetness for the heavenly inheritance as you have described is not practicable or attainable in this life ; if none be saved but such as you have described , woe be to all the world . answ . 1. most part of men are not capable of this actual meetness , not having the habitual ; namely , a relation to god , and a principle of saving grace ; and no wonder if unexperienced persons call this enthusianism , and unintelligible nonsense , for wisdom is too high for a fool ; it s not to be thought strange if some speak evil of that they know not , and turn real experiments into a ridicule : alas , they have no grace , how then can they exercise it ? how can they evidence a title to heaven that have none ? how can they dispatch their work , that never begun it to purpose ? or be mortified to things below , that have their portion in this present life , were never divorced from their lusts , and have no treasure above ? we may pity such souls , for salvation is far from the wicked . 2. but wisdom is justified of her children . sanctified souls know what these things mean , and tho' the best complain of their low attainments , yet the weakest sincere christian can set to his seal , that something of these things he hath found in his bosom as to sincerity , and is aiming at further degrees , and is not content to sit down short of perfection , but is pressing toward the mark for the price of the high calling of god in christ jesus . phil. 3.14 . 3. there 's a great difference in christians attainments in this world . some active vigorous souls get nearer to god then others ; some are children , others fathers , others are young men , that are strong , and the word of god abides in them , and they have overcome the wicked one , 1 joh. 2.12 , 13 , 14. the meanest child god hath in his family will own and follow his father , tho' some dare not say , he is my father : but some are grown up to great intimacy with god , as that choice man of god , mr. holland , that said on his death-bed , speak it when i am gone , and preach it at my funeral , that god deals familiarly with man. 4. yet it s every ones duty to endeavour after the highest pitch of meetness that is attainable in this life : for as it is the nature of true grace to become deeper and deeper , like the waters in ezekiels vision , and ascend higher and higher , as the flame or rising sun ; so the christian dare not but obey gods command to grow in grace , and sees it necessary to comply with our lords command , mat. 24.44 . therefore be ye also ready . and this is one reason ( amongst the rest which i shall next add , ) what a godly dying minister of my acquaintance said , that the best preparation of the best man , is all little enough when we come to dye . but more of this anon . this is the former head , what is that meetness for heaven that christians must have , or endeavour after . chap. vii . some reasons propounded why such must be made meet for heaven here , that hope to be saved hereafter . the second head in the doctrinal part , is the reasons of this point , that all those and only those that shall eternally partake of this heavenly inheritance in the other world , are made meet for it in this world : in handling this i shall endeavour not only to evince the truth of it , but convince the conscience of the necessity of it , and perswade the affections to comply with it . 1. it s fit persons be made meet , because no man by nature is meet for heaven . man is estranged from god , even from the womb , psal . 58.3 . and are these fit to live with god till brought nigh ? man is shapen and conceived in sin , psal . 51.5 . and is this fit to dwell with an holy god till sanctified ? man is dead in trespasses and sins , eph. 2.1 . and is such a dead block meet to converse with the living god ? man is darkness , eph. 5.8 . and what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness ? and what communion hath , light . with darkness ? 2 cor. 6.14 . man by nature is a child of wrath , eph. 2.3 . and how can dryed stubble dwell with consuming fire ? alas , we are all enemies to god in our minds , col. 1.21 . yea , enmity it self , rom. 8.7 . and can two walk together except they be agreed ? amos 3.3 . can the sin-revenging god and the guilty sinner hold intimate correspondence till they be reconciled ? o no , it will never be : heaven and hell will as soon joyn as god and an unregenerate sinner : will the holy god take such vipers into his bosom ? can you imagine god will deface or lay aside his immaculate holiness , to take you from the swine-sty into his holy sanctuary ? what cleanly person can endure to have a filthy swine a bed and board with him in his parlour or bed-chamber ? shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee ? psal . 94.20 . no , no , god is of purer eyes then to behold iniquity , with liking and delight . hab. 1.13 . if god should take men [ a caeno ad coelum ] from the dunghil into his palace , others would conclude that god is reconciled to sin , that its an harmless thing , and not that abominable thing which his soul hates : no , it can never be ; graceless sinners , so remaining cannot dwell with god. psal . 5.4 , 5. 2. because this is the divine ordination and appointment , that there should be a connexion betwixt grace and glory , holiness and happiness : psal . 84.11 . as sin and hell are joyned by divine commination , so grace and heaven are knit together by divine promise . so saith the text , rom. 2.7 , 10. to them who by patient continuance in well-doing , seek for glory and honour , and immortality , eternal life . this is a connexion of grace , not of merit ; of promise , not of debt , yet inviolable , for gods justice and truth are ingaged in it . it s fit the infinite god should distribute his mercies to whom , and upon what termes he pleaseth ; now he hath said peremptorily , without holiness no man shall see the lord : heb. 12.14 . all things are ordered and wrought after the councel of his will ; eph. 1.11 . first he chuseth them before the foundation of the world , that they should be holy : eph. 1.4 . they are redeemed to be holy , tit. 2.14 . called with an holy calling , 2 tim. 1.9 . and therefore they are holy brethren that are partakers of this heavenly calling : heb. 3.1 . let wicked scoffers mock on to their guilt and cost : such there are in the world , and such must they be if they think to inherit heaven : its gods ordination : you must be saints in this world , or never crowned as saints in the other ; tho' canonized for saints by men , when gone . consider sinner , whose word shall stand ? gods or thine ? thou hopest to go to heaven without saintship , or meetness for it ; god saith it , yea swears it , heb. 3.18 . that thou shalt never enter into his rest . this is gods councel , that men must be brought through sanctification to salvation , 2 thess . 2.13 . and can you think to overturn his appointed will , or contradict his councels ? must the earth be forsaken for thee ? must the immutable god falsifie his word to save chee against his will , yea , against thy will ? for thou wilst not come to him for life : god will not be merciful to any wicked transgressour : the eternal determination of heaven is recorded in that chain of salvation , rom. 8.30 . and all the men on earth and devils in hell cannot break one link of it : predestination , vocation , justification , salvation or glorification : go try the turning day into night , or winter into summer , or stop the course of the sun , before thou think to divert the proceedings of grace in the salvation of souls ; but its vain to attempt either ; for his councel shall stand , and he will do all his pleasure . 3. this is the design of god in all his ordinances to make souls meet for heaven : it pleased god by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe . 1 cor. 1.21 . ministers and ordinances were given for perfecting of the saints . eph. 4.11 , 12 , 13. this is the means of conversion , the power of god to salvation ; rom. 1.16 . the means of edification , of resolution of doubts , consolation and confirmation ; so are the seals of the covenant given to this end , to bring souls onward to this glorious inheritance . now , sirs , consider , shall you receive this grace of god in vain ? shall all the ordinances be lost upon you ? you must give account of sabbaths , sermons , sacraments , shall they be the savour of death unto death to you , or the savour of life unto life ? alas , how do poor ministers toyl and travel , pray and watch , weep and sigh , to the breaking of their loyns , spending of their spirits , to bring you to god and heaven , and you pretend kindness to us , but have no real kindness to your own souls , we dare not but warn you in the name of christ , lest you fail of the grace of god , and fall short of this inheritance : we watch for your souls as those that must give an account : o let us do it with joy and not with grief . heb. 13.17 . if it be uncomfortable to us , it will be unprofitable to you ? must our sweat and labour be in vain ? but it will not be in vain to us , for our work is with the lord , we shall not lose our reward : god will pay the nurse , though the child dye : our crown will be given us , if we be faithful , though we be not successful , for that 's in gods hands : but woe be to those souls that have sitten under powerful ordinances , and miss of this inheritance ! o woe , woe to you , you cannot miss of heaven , but be plunged into a deeper hell : o ease our hearts , and save your own souls : kill us , and damn your selves ; nay , murder your selves , and you again crucifie christ , whose person we represent : rather give us leave to espouse you to one husband , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i have fitted you , as things that are pieced together , glued or soddered , let us do so with you , ] that we may present you as chast virgins in christ , 2 cor. 11.2 . would to god this were the fruit of our labours . 4. this is the design of all gods providential dispensations : mercies , afflictions , smiles , frowns , come upon this errand to make souls meet for heaven : cords of love draw , rods of wrath drive the poor sinner from hell to heaven : the sunshine of love comes to melt and thaw our frozen hearts that god may set a stamp upon us : the loving kindness of god leads to repentance . rom. 2.4 . oh what an influence will gods native goodness have upon an ingenuous spirit . as the sun attracts vapours from the earth , so this son of righteousness should and will ( if our sturdy hearts hinder not ) raise our hearts heaven-wards . it s pity we should stop here in the streams , but that thereby we should be led to the fountain , and follow the beams up to the sun : may this long-suffering of the lord be your salvation : 2 pet. 3.15 . may love constrain you to love god : may these load-stones so attract you , and these grapes of canaan enamour you , that you may never rest till you appear before god in zion : and what are all gods rods and redoubled strokes for , but to awaken you out of security ? peat your fingers off from the world ? weaken your corruptions , and purge and furbish your souls , as vessels for the high shelf of glory ? for our light affliction which is but for a moment , worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory ; 2 cor. 4.17 . how is that ? surely by working the soul into a fitness for that glory . this furnace melts away the dross of our spirit . sea-tossings clear the liquor of grace ; this dark night fits for the pleasant morning ; these pangs prepare us for deliverance ; these blustering storms fit souls for the peaceable fruits of righteousness , being sanctified by the spirit , and improved by faith. affliction is gods physick , which makes sick , but prepares for sweet health ; and shall we frustrate gods ends in this also ? what , are you content with a heaven here , and an hell hereafter ? nay can you be content with an hell in both worlds ? must these be par-boilings for everlasting burnings ? god forbid . look at the lords end in these sufferings , and let it be yours . 5. the time of this life is the only time men have given them to be made meet for heaven . this life is a praeludium to an eternal state : it s a seminary for another world . gal. 6.7 , 8. — whatsoever a man soweth that shall be also reap : he that soweth to his flesh , shall of the flesh reap corruption ; but he that soweth to the spirit , shall of the spirit reap life everlasting . seeding is a preparatory to reaping ; yet men must expect only to reap that kind of grain that 's sown ; none can think to reap wheat that sowed oats ; and you know there 's more abundunce in the reaping then in the sowing : so in this case , hell torments will be more exquisite and eternal , then the profit and pleasure of the sinner in sinning : heavens joys will infinitely furmount the christians labours and sorrows in this world ; and there is great equity in both , for the object sinned against is infinite , and satisfaction can never be made by a finite creature ; and the grace , from whence flows eternal life , is infinite , and will have an endless duration : but the point i am upon is to demonstrate the necessity of making meet for heaven in this world , or it will never be done : now or never . when the door is shut , the gulf fixt , and the soul loosed from the body , and launcht out into that vast ocean of eternity , there 's no returning back to get the oyl of grace , or be fiting the soul for another world : eccl. 9.10 . what soever thine hand findeth to do , do it with thy might ; for there is no work , nor device , nor knowledge , nor wisdom in the grave whither thou goest . time lasts not , but floats away apace ; but what is everlasting depends upon it . [ hic aut accepimus , aut amittimus vitam aeternam ] in this world we either win or lose eternal life : the great weight of eternity hangs on the small and twittered thread of time : now is the accepted time ; now is the day of salvation : 2 cor. 6.2 this is our working day , our market time ; surely it becomes us to lay that foundation well , that bears such a superstructure : to cast that anchor safely that is entrusted with a vessel so richly laden ; oh sirs , sleep now , and awake in eell , from whence is no redemption . suppose by misdemeanour you had forfeited your estate and life , and upon much intercession , the king causeth an hour-glass to be turned , and set you a work to do , or lesson to learn ; if you performed it you are pardoned and promoted , if not , tortured and executed : oh how diligent would you be ! what pains would you take ? the case is your own , sirs , heaven and hell are before you ; according to your improvement or non-improvement of this hour of life , so must you fare ; dream not of a purgatory ; as the tree falls so it lyes : you enter by death into an unchangeable state , only the body at the resurrection will be joyned to the soul to be partner with it in weal or woe , bliss or bane for ever . the state here is [ tempus operis ] the time of working ; hereafter [ mercedis ] of reward : oh look , before you leap into another world . that 's the fifth reason . 6. the christian must be made meet here for the inheritance above , because he hath abundance of work to do , and priviledges to injoy , in order to the full possession of this blessed inheritance above : we have many graces to exercise , duties to perform , corruptions to subdue , temptations to resist , burdens to bear , mercies to improve , that will never be managed to purpose without a qualification for managing them : and observe it , the same disposition is requisite for making a christian meet for any duty , that 's requisite to make him meet for glory ; the same habitual principle , and drawing it forth into lively exercise : not only must the man of god be perfect , throughly furnished unto all good works ; 2 tim. 3.17 . but every christian , that is a vessel unto honour , must be sanctified and so meet for his masters use , and prepared unto every good work : 2 tim. 2.21 . alas , an unsanctified heart is unfit for spiritual service . solomon saith , the legs of the lame are not equal , [ he halts and goes limping ] so is a parable in the mouth of fools : prov. 26.7 . how aukwardly and bunglingly doth he go to work in sacred things ; just as an unskilful person handles a lute , a viol , or instrument of musick : or as the men of ephraim could not frame to pronounce shibboleth aright : judg. 12.6 . there must be a suitableness betwixt the agent and acts : no carnal heart can do any one good work well ; materially he may do what is good , but not formally as good ; in a good manner , for a good end ; acceptably to god , or profitably to himself : for they that are in the flesh cannot please god ; and without faith its impossible to please god. rom. 8.8 . heb. 11.6 . and can we think god will carry them to heaven that never struck a right stroke , or never did one hours work for god , that he would accept ? a graceless sinner is like the fruitless vine tree , ezek. 15.3 , 4 , 5. that is not meet for any work , but it is cast into the fire for fuel ; just so is that branch ( that 's professionally ) in christ , that beareth not fruit , it s taken away , — and cast into the fire and burned . joh. 15 . 2.-6 . the divine wisdom is seen in suiting means to the end , object to the faculty , back to the burden : now graceless sinners are not fit for gods work , and if they be not fit in this world , they will never be fit . 2. the christian hath many priviledges to injoy which he must be meet for even in this world , as reconciliation , justification , adoption , joy in the holy ghost , peace of conscience , communion with god , audience of prayers , &c. all these god hath promised , christ hath purchased for his children , and they are childrens bread , and must not be given to dogs : god will not throw away his mercies on such as value them not , but scorn them ; they set light by precious delicates of his table , mat. 22 5. the whole slight the physitian : mat. 9.12 . the full soul loaths the honey comb : the carnal heart will not thank god for pardon and grace ; and can we think god will force his blessings on such ungrateful miscreants , that scorn both him and his kindness ? no surely , there are some that long for these blessings , and will thankfully accept them : see acts 13.46 , 48. and 28.28 . yea , he will make you prize them , and part with all for them , or you shall never have them : what think you , doth not the great god take care to secure his own glory , as well as mans felicity ? and would it not be dishonourable to god to bestow his richest treasures and pleasures of grace on such as despise them , and take more pleasure in rooting in the sordid dunghil of sensual delights , then in seeking first the kingdom of god , which consists in righteousness , peace and joy in the holy ghost . rom. 14.17 . alas , honour is not seemly for a fool : prov. 26.1 . as a jewel of gold in a swines snout , so is a fair woman without discretion . prov. 11.22 . these silly fools are not meet to sit as princes with the king at his table , because they want a wedding-garment of suitable disposition for so high a priviledge . mat. 22.12 . chap. viii . another reason drawn from the necessary consistency of a christians meetness for so glorious an inheritance . 7. the last reason why souls must be made meet for heaven is , because other wise there would be no consistency or suitable harmony betwixt men and glory : if their natures be not changed , they will not have a suitableness of disposition to the glorious state above . the truth of this i shall demonstrate in these 4 particulars . 1. none but persons made meet for heaven will have any mind to leave the world , and go to god. a carnal unconverted soul is totally unwilling to go hence ; they fancy to themselves an eternity below : their inward thought is , that their houses shall endure for ever : psal . 49.11 . yea , themselves ; for they put far from them the evil day , and sing a requiem to themselves , as the fool in the gospel ; and no wonder , for they live by sense , and know what they have here , but know not what they must have hereafter : as the old doting monk , that shewed his brave accommodations , saying , these things make us unwilling to dye . it was an usual saying among the heathens , [ soli christiani sunt mortis contemptores ] that christians only are contemners of death : this is applicable to sincere christians . stoical apathy will not do it , but faith will. julius palmer , the martyr , said , to them that have their souls linked to the elesh , like a rogues foot to a pair of stocks , it is indeed hard to dye ; but for him who is able to separate soul and body by the help of gods spirit ; it is no more mastery for such a one to dye , then for me to drink this cup of beer : nay , when the christian is upon good terms with god , he desires to be loosed or dissolved and to be with christ , phil. 1.23 . yea , this is the disposition of a soul meet for heaven , that he loves and longs for christs appearing ; 2 tim. 4.8 . but the sincere christian that is not actually meet son heaven ( though through grace he be habitually meet ) often shrugs at the approach of death , and is glad to chide himself out , and say as that holy man , [ egredere mea arima , egredere , ] go out , my soul , go out , what art thou afraid of ? and surely that man is more acceptable to god , and comfortable in death , that hath set all things streight , and hath nothing to do , but surrender his soul into gods hands ; this man will make his lord welcome any hour of the day , or watch of the night ; but the other is like a maid undrest and unready , though for the main she love her friend , and desire his coming , yet in the present juncture and under those circumstances , she is surprized and troubled that he should find her in that pitiful pickle . this is the case of the unmeet christian . 2. none but souls meet for heaven are fit for death , through which all must pass . it s true , the apostle doth discover to us this mistery , ( which among the rest he might receive in the third heavens , ) 1 cor. 15.51 . we shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed ; but this change is a peculiar dispensation in the end of the world , and this change is equivalent to death . this is certain , the fruit of the curse , the sting of death will fasten her fangs on the unconverted soul , that 's under the covenant of works , and is not in christ : it s only the sincere christian that can sing that [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ] the song of triumph ; or can make that brave challenge , 1 cor. 15.56 , 57. o death where is thy sting ! o grave where is thy victory ? only our captain jesus hath disarmed death , and it is only for his members ; others are left to its rage : death feeds on them ; psal . 49.14 . it hath a full morsel of them . the first death kills the body , and the second death damns the soul ; but blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection , on such the second death hath no power . rev. 20.6 . oh happy state of real saints ! christ , our david , hath conquered this goliah : the ark of the covenant hath driven back this swelling jordan : [ tollitur mors non ne sit , sed ne obsit ; ] this serpent may hiss and hit , not hurt ; strike down it may , not strike home ; it may thrust gods children into the grave , not into hell : nay , our lord sets his , not only above the danger by death , but fears of death , that are thus meet for heaven ; heb. 2.14 , 15. that can say , as that gracious gentlewoman , a martyr , written by me anne askew , that neither wisheth for death , nor feareth his might , and as merry as one that 's bound for heaven : but oh the woful state of a graceless sinner ! that is in natures state , and loves and lives in sin , lyes and dyes in the old adam . that 's the sadest word in all the bible , pronounced twice in a breath by our blessed lord , joh. 8.21 , 24. ye shall dye in your sins , i. e. under the guilt of your sins and sentence of condemnation : this is surprizing from what he adds in the first place , whither i go you cannot come ; that is to heaven , whither sinners cannot enter : you 'l say , then no man can enter into heaven , for all men are sinners even to the last breath . when are men cleansed , is it [ in articulo mortis ] in the passage of the soul out of the body ? may not all be cleansed alike then ? answ . it s true all are sinning to the last gasp of breathing out their souls ; but 1. you must distinguish betwixt a state of sin , and having fin : the best have relicks of original corruption as long as they live : the death of the body will only annihilate the body of death : death is not properly the punishment , but period of sin : it reigns not in gods children at present , it shall not remain in them when dead : the guilt of sin is already gone , for there 's no condemnation to them that are in christ jesus , rom. 8.1 . and the filth , yea , being of sin is taken away , as soon as death strikes the stroke . 2. i see not but the mighty god can perfectly expel sin out of the soul , and also perfect defective graces in the instant of the souls separation from the body , as well as he did infuse a principle of grace into the soul in an instant at the souls first conversion ; for by death the spirits of just men are made perfect ; heb. 12.23 . mind it , it is just men not wicked ; god will not infuse grace into men ordinarily in their passage out of the world ; [ qualis vita , finis ita ; ] as men live , so they dye ; and if men imagine god will put another principle into their hearts just as they pass out of this world ; as this is a daring presumption , so they will be mistaken ; for how is a departing soul capable of such receptions or reflections as are necessary in the work of conversion ? alas , the eyes being set , lips quivering , memory failing , and the body in a cold sweat , is unfit for any thing ; their hopes giving up the ghost as their breaths depart ; and it s a wonder that the souls of wicked men go quietly out of their bodies ; its strange they depart not as the devils out of the demonaicks rending , raging , tearing , foming ; but if conscience be asleep , death will awake it ; could you follow their departing souls a minute out of their bodies , you would hear howlings and roarings . 3. heaven will not receive any souls but such as are made meet for it on earth . rev. 21.27 . there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth , neither what soever worketh abomination , — for without are dogs . rev. 22.15 . they say ireland will not brook a toad , a snake or venomous creature to live and like in it : i am sure heaven will not admit , but cast out an unsanctified heart . the legions of apostate angels knew this , who abode not one moment in that holy place after they left their innocency . it is said of the halcyons nest , that it will hold nothing but its own bird : the same may be said of heaven ; the serpent could wind himself into the earthly paradice , but none of the serpentine brood shall once peep into this heavenly paradice . for ( 1 ) the text saith , it is an inheritance ; now an inheritance is for none but children ; its true all gods children are heirs , rom. 8.17 . but none shall inherit heaven except children : by nature we are children of wrath ; by grace and adoption children of god. all gods children are begot again , to a lively hope for this incorruptible inheritance . 1 pet. 1.3 , 4. ( 2. ) it s the inheritance of saints , i. e. of holy sanctified souls . persons must not think that heaven is like mahemets paradice , where there is delicious fare , pleasant gardens , fair women , and all sensual delights , fit lettice for an epicures lips. no , no , heaven is a state of perfect , immediate and perpetual injoyment of god , suited to the raised faculties of a sanctified soul. ( 3. ) it s the inheritance of saints in light . it s a bright and lightsome state , suited to seeing souls ; blind sinners can see no beauty there ; such as are not changed from darkness to light are not fit for that state ; see acts 26.18 . alas , a blind man can take no content in beautiful objects , though the sun shine never so gloriously . heaven and light are synonymous ; but light and darkness are directly contrary : if we say that we have fellowship with him , and walk in darkness , we lye and do not the truth ; 1 joh. 1.6 . and such dark sinners are far from a suitableness to this state and place of light . o therefore poor sinners consider this , the holy god hates all the workers of iniquity ; the holy heaven is no sanctuary for rebels and traytors ; god will not take such vipers into his bosom ; thou must either be renewed or never received into glory ; it is an undefiled inheritance , 1 pet. 1.4 . a dirty sinner must not enter ; this would disparage and contradict all gods attributes , as his justice , then god should give to the wicked according to the work of the righteous ; it would blemish his holiness , as though unclean were delighted in equally with the clean ; it would contradict his truth , as though god regarded not what he said or swore , that no unclean thing shall enter there : every attribute would have dirt cast upon it , if god should save the unsanctified soul : nay , it contradicts the undertakings of jesus christ , who came to save his people from their sins , not in their sins : it exposeth the office and operations of the holy ghost , whose office it is to sanctifie sinners , and prepare souls for heaven ; that sinner must surely be in a desperate case that must un god the infinite jehovah , god blessed for ever , or else he cannot be saved . 4. the unsanctified sinner would by no means like in heaven . heaven would be an hell to him , except his nature were changed and renewed . most men mistake the nature of heaven ; they only look upon it as a place of happiness ; it is so , but withal it is a state of perfect holiness : they are holy priviledges , injoyment of god , and what care wicked men for his company ? they say unto god , depart from us ; and their choice shall be their punishment : they are holy joys and delights ; how will they like that who were never pleased but with sensual laughter , which is madness ? there 's holy company above of saints , but they cannot abide to be near them on earth , how then can they like to be associated to them in heaven ? there is holy imployment above , but alas , they are not at all qualified for , nor can they be delighted in the work of loving , praising , or taking pleasure in god. augustine hath a saying , [ canticum novum & vetus homo male concordant . ] that the new song and old man agree not well together : — no man could learn that new song , but the hundred fourty four thousand , which were redeemed from the earth . rev. 14.3 . alas , they have not hearts nor harps tuned for it . suppose it were possible that our lord should bring an unsanctified person to heaven , saith one , he could take no more felicity there , then a beast , if you should bring him into a beautiful room , to the society of learned men , or a well furnisht table ; when as the poor thing would much rather be grazing with his fellow bruits ; thus a poor graceless sinner would rather be with his cups or queans , at best in his markets , and counting his bags , but there 's no such things in heaven ; therefore if he were there , he would be quite out of his element ; [ tanquam piscis in avido ] as a fish in the air , or a bird in the water , or fire ? can you charm a beast with musick ? or can you bring him to your melody , or make him keep time with your skilful quire ? so the anthems of heaven , saith one , fit not a carnal mans mouth , suit not his ear : poor wretches , they now think sermons long , sabbaths long , prayers and praises long , and cry , what a weariness is it ? when will it be over ? and are these think you , fit for this heavenly imployment to all eternity ? where this noble company of coelestial inhabitants , serve god day and night in the temple . rev 7.15 . alas , the poor unregenerate sinner hath no faculties suited to such a glorious state and work , as that above is ; the mind , will , memory and conscience , are like a full stomach that loaths the honey-comb : these old bottles cannot hold the new wine of glory : you may as well hew the marble without tools , or draw a picture without colours , or build without instruments or materials , as a soul not qualified with grace can do the work of god acceptably either on earth or in heaven oh , sirs , think of this , you must be prepar'd , fitted , qualified for heaven here , or else heaven will be no heaven to you . chap. ix . an use of conviction and lamentation over souls that are unmeet for heaven . i now proceed to application , and all the uses i shall make of this point shall be of lamentation and exhortation . 1. of conviction , humiliation , lamentation . a man would think upon such plain demonstrations as are oft laid before sinners in the ministry of the word , they would once at last reflect upon themselves and say , am i thus or thus qualified ? upon what terms stand i for another world ? am i an adopted child of god ? am i justified ? am i converted to god , and brought through the pangs of regeneration ? have i made a covenant with god , and taken god for my god , and given my self to him ? what saving work hath passed upon my heart ? if i should come to you one by one , and pose you with this solemn question , friends whither bound ? whither are you going ? are you for heaven or hell ? oh no , you 'l say , god forbid , but that we shall go to heaven ! god is a merciful god ; christ dyed to save sinners ; we do not doubt but through the merits of christ , we shall be saved as well as others : alas , sirs , these are too general grounds , to build your hopes of salvation upon . god is merciful , but he is also just ; christ dyed for sinners , but do you imagine all shall be saved by him ? let me ask you a few sober questions , and answer them not according to your fancies , but according to scripture rule : do you believe that all men shall be saved ? what is hell then for , that 's so oft mention'd in the bible ? or do you think that the gates of heaven are as wide as the gates of hell , or that as many shall be saved as damned ? dare you so directly contradict our blessed saviour , and give him the lye ? mat. 7 13 , 14. can you imagine that our lord jesus ( who is the door-keeper keeper of heaven ) will admit any but those that he saith he will entertain ? or do you think he will admit those that he saith he will keep out ? what think you , can any secretly steal in unknown to him , or forcibly thrust in against his will ? is the infinite all-seeing god grown so weak or blind that you can couzen or conquer him ? or can you bribe him to let you in with fair words or large gifts ? or dare you stand to plead in his face that you are qualified and meet for heaven , when he tells you , that you are not ? do you think there is such a thing as a groundless presumption , or rotten hope that will give up the ghost ? is not the devil a cheat ? are not your hearts treacherous ? and are not they fools that trust these , and will not try by the word what they affirm ? and have you solemnly and faithfully tryed your title to heaven ? have you not taken all for granted without a serious proving of your state , meerly because you would have it so ? and are you content to do so in temporals ? and will you madly venture your immortal souls on such grounds as you dare not try ? and can you think to escape the strict tryal of the omniscient god ? sirs , the business is important ; heaven and hell depend upon it : we ministers that believe an eternity , and certainly know upon what terms souls are saved , dare not but be faithful to you , and declare the whole councel of god. i must , 1. tell you who those are that are far off salvation , and are utterly unmeet for this inheritance , and can pretend no claim to it . 2. such as pretend a claim , but its groundless , and but a pretended claim , and cannot be made out on scripture grounds . 1. their are a sort of persons within the pale of the visible church , ( for i here meddle not with heathens or jews ) that are [ ipso facto ] point-blank excluded , in as plain terms as can be spoken . these are a sort of sinners that carry the black brand in their foreheads , of whom a man may say without breach of charity , these carry visibly the doleful tokens of eternal death and damnation . view two catalogues of these , one is in 1 cor. 6.9 , 10. know ye not [ i. e. methinks you cannot plead ignorance in so notorious a case so oft inculcated , ] that ( 1. ) the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of god : [ i. e. that grind the poor , over-reach their brethren , when they have them at advantage , god is the avenger of such , 1 thess . 4.6 . therefore not the rewarder with heaven . ( 2. ) neither fornicators shall inherit the kingdom of god. such filthy goats must be set at gods left hand . this sin [ as venial a sin as it s reckoned by some ] is damning , and excludes men from heaven . do you think such dirty dogs shall ever trample on this golden pavement ? when god would not suffer even the price of a whore or dog to come into his house . deut. 23.18 . ( 3. ) nor idolaters , gross , or more refined ; for god will not permit his children to keep company , or familiarly converse with such on earth , 1 cor. 5.11 . and therefore shall not be associated to them in the other world , and god is not well pleased with such . 1. cor. 10.5 , 7. ( 4. ) nor adulterers , nor effeminate , nor abusers of themselves with mankind , shall inherit the kingdom of god , such filthy sodomites shall rather have fire from heaven , then be admitted into that holy place . these horrible acts of filthiness are not fit to be named among saints , and surely the committers of them cannot be entertained among saints : see eph. 5 3 , 4. they are given up . rom. 1.24 . ( 5. ) nor thieves . not only open robbers by the high-way , or breakers of houses , but gamsters that cheat others , or purloyning wastful servants , deceitful tradesmen , or wilful bankrupts , that basely get others estates into their hands and never intend to pay their just debts : these men , without restitution , shall have their ill-gotten silver and gold to torment them like burning mettal in their bowels . jam. 5.2 , 3. ( 6. ) nor covetous . these are fitly joyned to thieves , that run out with inordinate affection to the world , and suck her breasts with great delight ; that inlarge their desires as hell : these must be shut out of heaven , for they have their portion in this present life , psal . 17.14 . and are real idolaters . col. 3.5 . eph. 5.5 . these must be banished heaven . ( 7. ) nor drunkards . not only such as bruitifie themselves , and drink away their reason , but such as sit long at it , continue till wine inflame them ; yea though they be not intoxicated , yet they purchase a woe to themselves , that are mighty to drink wine , and men of strength to mingle strong drink . isa . 5.11 , 22. ( 8. ) nor revilers . these are properly annexed to drunkards ; for the godly are usually the drunkards song , that scoff and jear at serious godliness , and break their scurrilous jests upon the holiest saints ; but there 's no railing among angels or saints in heaven , jude 9. nor shall such come there : and one would think they do not desire to come there , with those they so abuse . ( 9. ) i may add backbiters , that love to take up and blaze abroad a false report against their neighbours ; these are excluded gods tabernacle , psal . 15.1 , 3. that fling all the dirt they can in the face of such as do them no hurt , wounding them secretly with a privy stab , or behind their backs ; god will hold the door of heaven against such . ( 10. ) swearers , that prophane the glorious and tremendous name of the eternal god by horrible oaths , curses and execrations : blasphemers of old were to be put to death , and if men now spare them , the flying roll of curses shall go out against such , and cut them off , zech. 5.2 , 3 , 4. those that swear fall into condemnation . jam. 5.12 . ( 11. ) lyars , that invent or utter lies upon any account whatsoever ; these carry their own doom in their consciences , and they may read the doleful sentence in rev. 21.27 . there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth , — or maketh a lye . the god of truth hateth lyars , and will banish them from his court , as david did . psal . 101.7 . ( 12. ) apostates , that once made a fair shew , but are renegadoes to the truth , way , people , worship of god ; they bring a great reproach on religion ; and our blessed saviour pronounceth such as put their hand to the plow and look back , to be unfit for the kingdom of god ; luk. 9.62 . gods soul will have no pleasure in them . heb. 10.38 . oh the dreadful end of these that turn their backs on christ . 2 pet. 2.20 , 21. hearken , you sinners , if any of you be of this number , read and tremble , there 's no room for you in this glorious city above , you must be shut out : living and dying in this estate there 's no more mercy for you then for the devils : heaven is shut against you , hell is open for you : how can you escape the damnation of hell ? mat. 23.33 . alas , you are daily filling up the measure of your sins ; the ephah is well nigh full ; t'other sin , t'other neglect more , and next news you may hear , the talent of lead may be cast upon the mouth of the ephah , and thy soul carryed into thine own place : zach. 5.7 , 9. one oath more , one lye more , one fit of drunkenness more , and thy iniquity is full , thy soul is gone . who can tell but god may say to thee as to the rich man , luke 12.29 . this night shall thy soul be required of thee : or as the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] they , that is the devils shall require thy soul. oh how greedily are infernal . fiends watching for a commission to break , thy neck in thy travelling , or to strangle thee in thy bed , and hurry thee headlong into hell with them ! thy iniquity is filling up ; the sun-shine of prosperity ripens it apace ; the sweet rain of gospel ordinances brings weeds to perfection as well as corn. as gods children are making meet for heaven , thou art making meet for hell. rom. 9.22 , 23. what if god willing to shew his wrath , and to make his power known , endured with much long-suffering , the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction : [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] made up , made ready , like sticks dryed and bundled up to be cast into the fire . it is not said that god fits them for destruction , as it s said , ver . 22. of the vessels of mercy which he had afore prepared unto glory : no , no , there needs no more to a sinners making meet for hell , but a leaving him to himself ; he will fall apace downwards to damnation with his own weight . ah sinner , thou little knowest how soon thy foot may slip off this slippery battlement on which thou standest , into the precipice of eternal destruction . little dost thou know how soon that flaming sword that hangs over thy head by the twine-thred of thy natural life , may fall upon thee and separate soul and body , and follow this stroke of vengeance into the other world . methinks thou shouldst not eat nor drink , nor sleep quietly in this so dangerous , damnable estate . every sin thou committest is a treasuring up unto thy self wrath against the day of wrath . rom. 2.5 . look to 't , the judge standeth before the door ; death is ready to lay its cold hand of arrest upon thee : there 's but a step betwixt you and death ; and that door that lets you out of time sets you in eternal torments ; and are you taking long strides to hell ? shall you not be there soon enough ? can you not sink your selves low enough ? must you needs add drunkenness to thirst ? impenitency to your sin ? alas , you love to wander , you hate to be reformed ; yea , you hate instruction , and cast his words behind you . psal . 50.17 . ministers follow you from the lord with tears , intreaties , arguments to perswade , and means to direct , and willingness to assist you the best they can in your preparations for a future state , but you are shy of conversing with them ; you conceal your state from them ; they spend their time in studying to do you good ; they spend their lungs in speaking to you , in speaking to god for you , but all doth no good , they cannot be heard till it be too late ; no warning will serve . men say as that evil servant , my lord delayeth his coming — so begin to eat and drink with the drunken : let them know , the lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him , and in an hour that he is not aware of ; and shall cut him asunder , and appoint him his portion with the hypocrities , there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth . mat. 24.48 , 49 , 50.51 . chap. x. an answer to the objection of vain pretenders to a meetness for heaven . obj. but some may say , you speak terrible things against the prophane , but i bless god , i am none of those , my case is better then those before described , i carry fairly in my conversation , none can challenge me for the foresaid gross enormities , i keep church , hear sermons , pray as well as god gives me grace , none are perfect , i hope god for christs sake will pardon my defects ; i repent of my sins from the bottom of my heart , and believe in christ , and do as well as i can ; god help us , we are all sinners ; god will not be so severe as you say : i hope i shall go to heaven as well as others . answ . it s not as i say , or you say , but as god himself saith ; do i say any thing but what the holy god saith in the bible ? object against it and disprove it ; but must not the word of god judge you another day ? hath he not told us in his infallible word who shall be saved , and who shall be damned ; and will you believe god or your own self deluding hearts ? besides , i stand upon habitual meetness chiefly : what art thou man in point of state ? art thou a child of god or a child of the devil ? tell not me that thou hast done this or that good work , but art thou savingly converted from sin to god ? hast thou that renovation that necessarily accompanies salvation ? this i have spoken to . but that which i shall briefly hint at , is to tell you that many go as far as kadesh-barnea , that reach not canaan : many go far , that dye in the wilderness ; and set out fair , yea hold on long , that yet never obtain this heavenly inheritance . strive to enter in at the strait gate , saith our lord , for many i say unto you , will seek to enter in , and shall not be able . luke 13.24 . 1. you say you carry it fairly and live civilly : alas , civil righteousness and abstaining from gross sins will not do . abimelech an heathen was an exact moralist , gen. 20.6 . paul unconverted was blameless . phil. 3.6 . these were not saints nor fit for heaven . 2. you say you keep church , attend on ordinances , hear the best preachers , so did those that heard christ himself , luk. 13.26 . yet at last are rejected with an [ i know you not ] ; so did they . ezek. 33.31 , 32. 3. you say you pray , and perform many religious duties , so did the jews of old that were stark naught , and rejected ; isa . 58.1 , 2. so did the pharisees , in luk. 18.11 , 12. some have the form but want the power of godliness ; 2 tim. 3.5 . these are lifeless blocks . 4. you say you own the orthodox faith , and are not guilty of heresie ; so did they rom. 2.24 , 28. creeds make not christians . a sound head and unfound heart may be companions . the scribe answered discreetly and orthodoxly , mark. 12.34 . and was not far from the kingdom of god , but never came into it . 5. you say you have honest purposes and endeavours ; yea , some attainments in growing better and mending what 's amiss ; it s well ; but saul said , 1 sam. 16.21 . i will no more do thee harm ; yea , herod reformed and did many things . mar. 6.20 . all this is good , but not good enough for heaven . 6. you say , but my reformations were begun and attended with strong convictions , and troubles of conscience ; but this will be no good evidence , for cain had great terrors ; gen. 4.14 . felix had his tremblings ; acts 24.25 . yea , the damned devils believe and tremble . jam. 2.19 . 7. but i repent of my sins you 'l say , and mourn sore : i reply , hast thou considered well whether it be a worldly sorrow that worketh death , or a godly sorrow that worketh repentance to salvation ? 2 cor. 7.10 . saul wept sore ; ahab humbled himself ; esau sought the blessing with tears ; heb. 12.17 . judas repented himself ; mat. 27.3 . yet all short . 8. you say , but i associate with gods people , am well accounted of , can have testimonials under the hands of eminent ministers , christians . i answer , so high did the foolish virgins artain , they had lamps , oyl in them , waited for the bridegroom , yet the door was barr'd upon them , with an [ i know you not . ] mat. 15 . 1.-12 . some have a name to live , but are dead . rev. 3.1 . 9. but god hath given me notable gifts of memory , knowledge , utterance in discoursing , praying , which surely he will not reject . i answer , so had they mat. 7.21 , 22 , 23. gifts of preaching , miracles , yet even these meet with an [ i never knew you . ] gifts and grace are different things . see 1 cor. 13.1 , 2 , 3. 10. but i have grace , i have the grace of faith , love , good desires . i answer , simon magus also believed , and was baptized , yet had neither part nor lot in this matter , for his heart was not right in the sight of god. act. 8.13.21 . there is a feigned as well as unfeigned faith , a dissembled love , unfound desires , legal repentance . 11. but i have put forth my self in extraordinary acts of piety , zeal for religion , reformation , sufferings for god : i doubt not but this inheritance belongs to me . i answer , all this thou mayst do , and be no candidate for heaven . jehu was a great reformer , yet a rotten-hearted hypocrite . 2 kin. 10.16 , 28. young joash was so zealous for a season . 2 chron. 24.4 , 17. what strict observers of the sabbath were the scribes and pharisees ? luk. 11.42.13 , 14 , 15. 12. you 'l say further , oh but i have assurance of my good estate , and not only so , but some joy and peace of conscience , which are as so many foretasts and prelibations of my future happiness . i answer , it s well , but see to it that they be of the right stamp ; the stony-ground hearers anon with joy receive the word . mat. 13.20 . balaam had brave raptures in hearing the words of god , seeing the vision of the almighty , and beholding the glory of gods people israel , he fell into a trance . num. 24.4 , 5 , 16 , 17. and there are that tast of the word of god , and powers of the world to come . heb. 6.5 , 6. yet such may fall away irrecoverably . oh how many catch at the promises , and are pleased with a sweet discourse of free-grace ! alas , these long for , and love gospel-delicacy , as children delight in sweet-meets : and as dr. ames saith , arminian grace may be but the effect of a good dinner . good nature working towards that which suits the fancy , but sound conviction and deep humiliation never prepared the soul to a judicious relish of divine things , nor do they produce those blessed effects in heart and life , as in gods children . oh how many poor sinners are going on in a golden dream , and fear no danger , till they be past hopes of recovery ! many think they are travelling towards heaven , and never question it , till as they are stepping out of this world ( as they think ) into heaven , miss their footing and drop down into hell : that never see their errour till it be too late to retrieve it . oh that men were awakened in time ! if you stay till death have struck its stroke it will be too late . [ imparatum inveniet dies judicii , quem imparatum invenerit ●●es mortis . ] the day of judgment must needs find him unready , that the day of death finds unready . men have a conceit that the interval betwixt death and judgment may do great things to make them meet for heaven , but they are mistaken : death launcheth you into the boundless ocean of eternity . it is appointed unto men once to dye , and after that the judgment . heb. 9.27 . ah , sirs , what think you ? is there an heaven or hell after this life , or is there not ? and are you not certain whether you do enter by death into eternal happiness or misery , and yet can you be quiet ? if you were not loose in your belief of future things , you would be restlefs as long as you are doubtful . you owe your ease to nothing but your lethargy . if you were not infidels you would be distracted . what man ! the next moment may be roaring in hell , and not repent on earth ! he is worse then a devil that trembles not under divine wrath . what if it have not siezed on you , as on devils ! the flame is at next door ; wrath hangs over your heads ; the only reason you see it not , is because you are blind : the lord open your eyes , and i need not preach terrour to you , your hearts will meditate terror : fearfulness will surprize you hypocrites , and make you say , who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire , with everlasting burnings ? isa . 33.14 . it s a wonder you do not run up and down like mad men ; surely you have taken some opium to cast you in a dead sleep , or intoxicate your spirits : or as some malafactors do , that dare not dye sober : yea , some wiser heathens took great draughts of wine , saying , that no voluptuous person can go in his wits into an invisible state . but is this a making meet for heaven or hell ? can rational persons think to escape the ditch by winking ? or will men say , as it s reported of robert duke of normandy , ( william the conquerours father ) going on pilgrimage to jerusalem , falling sick , was born in a litter on saracens shoulders , and said , he was born to heaven on the devils back ? alas , will you trust the fiend of hell to bring you to heaven ? is he grown so full of charity to souls ? oh forlorn case of miserable sinners ! have you no better a friend then satan ? that you can be content to be rockt asleep in his cradle , and carried with ease to hell , rather then ride in our lords chariot paved with love , to heaven ? is security your best fence against misery ? can these poor fig-leaves of temporary righteousness secure you from divine vengeance ? can you be content to stand by that another day , that you dare not put to the tryal here ? alas , i am afraid ; 1. some are ignorant sots that know not what is necessary to a meetness for heaven . most think if they have but time to say at death , [ lord have mercy upon me ; god forgive me my sins ; lord jesus receive my soul , ] they think they have made their peace with god , especially if they can say they forgive all the world , and dye in charity with all , and send for the minister to pray with them , and receive absolution and the sacrament , when ( perhaps ) they are little fit for such a solemn ordinance ; then the minister recommends their souls into gods hands , commends them at their funeral , and now they are certainly gone to heaven ; these poor wretched sinners blessed their souls whilst living , and men must praise them and account them blessed when dead . psal . 49.18 . 2. most are inconsiderate : they consider nothing but meer objects of sense , like the kine of bashan , go out at their breaches , every one at that which is before her . amos 4.1 , ●3 . they never mind things out of their natural sight ; they put far away the evil day , am. 6.3 . little thinking what will be in the end of their sensual ways : jer. 5.31 . either they say , to morrow shall be as this day , and much more abundant ; isa . 56.12 . or else in atheistical scorn and mockery ; let us eat and drink for to morrow we dye : 1 cor. 15.32 . let us be merry while we may ; we shall never be younger ; when we are gone all the world is gone with us ; as if there were no reckoning or rendering day , or retribution in the other world ; but let such study eccl. 11.9 , 10. rom. 8.13 . luk. 12.19 , 20. psal . 9.17.2 thess . 1.6 , 7 , 8 , 9. job . 3.18 . psal . 50 23. oh sirs , disappointments are dreadful : it s sad with a witness to be confident of heaven , and yet doomed to hell. as hamilcar dreamed he should the next night sup in syracusa , which indeed he did , not as a conqueror , ( as he hoped ) but as a prisoner : oh , how will it double your damnation , to live in confident hopes of reigning with christ , yet to be judged by him , and banished from him for ever ! if you say soul take thine case , and god say , devil take his soul : whether of these think you , will prevail ? chap. xi . an exhortation to all persons to get meet for heaven . 2. the latter use is exhortation ; 1. to sinners . 2. to saints to get meet for this heavenly inheritance . the former by an habitual , the latter by actual meetness for this glorious state . i shall need to say the less to move you to it ; having urged practical reasons from our natural unmeetness , divine ordination , the design of ordinances , providences , the season of life for it , the work and priviledges here require it , the inconsistency of a contrary-frame to that glorious inheritance : most of these are levelled to the state of unsanctified , graceless souls , therefore i shall say the less to that branch . oh that i had here the tongue or pen of an angel ! the bowels of blessed paul to perswade sinners to look after a meetness for heaven . consider , 1. what else have you to do in the world ? your very children will tell you that mans chief end is to glorifie god and injoy him for ever : if you attain not these ends you live in the world to no purpose , you are unprofitable cumber-grounds . 2. you frustrate christs undertakings in the world , and do what you can to render all his merits useless ; you tread under foot the son of god , count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing , and despise , if not despight the spirit of grace ; heb. 10.29 . you say plainly i like not the purchase , i will have none of it ; you call heaven cabul , a dirty thing ; as hiram called solomons twenty cities he gave him : and can you think much to be dealt without heaven , that thus judge your selves unworthy of everlasting life ? acts 13.46 . 3. every day sets you nearer heaven or hell. it s reported of the pious lady falkland , that going to bed at night , she usually said , now am i nearer heaven by one day then never i was . one day added to your time is a day taken away from your life . oh think when you have heard a sermon , or spent a sabbath , i am now nearer heaven or hell ; this word hath been to me the savour of life unto life , or of death unto death : 2 cor. 2.16 . it sets me forward some way ; if i bring forth meet and suitable fruit , i shall receive a blessing from god ; if bryars and thorns , i am rejected , nigh to a curse , whose end is to be burned . heb. 6.7 , 8. the word either hardens or softens . woe be to me , if all that god doth doth further my more dreadful condemnation . 4. eternity brings up the rear of time . if it were but a making fit for a days pageantry , there would be no such great need of curiosity to get matters ready ; though it s said , jer. 2.32 . can a maid forget her ornaments , or a bride her attire ; though oft it is for the short shew of a marriage day : oh but this is for eternity . that curious painter being demanded why he bestowed so much labour on his picture , answered , [ pingo eternitati . ] i paint for eternity . indeed there 's nothing of value but what relates to eternity . eternity gives an accent and emphasis to all created beings . the apostle thought all visible sublunaries not worth a cast of his eye in comparison of this eternity . 2 cor. 4.18 . see a book called [ glimpse of eternity , on that text. ] alas , sirs , is eternity nothing with you ? oh my friends , this ( if any thing ) is worth preparing for , to be for ever with the lord , to injoy god ten thousands of millions of years , or to be banished from his presence , and be tormented with devils and damned souls for ever . oh this word for ever is amazing , a godly man in company sate in a deep muse , and being demanded what he was thinking of ? answered , only with repeating [ for ever , for ever , for ever , ] for a quarter of an hour together : this is indeed a confounding consideration . oh that you would solemnly lay upon your hearts the great things of another world ! on the one hand the injoyment of god , christ , the company of saints , angels , the perfection of your natures , a crown of glory , fulness of joy and pleasures at gods right-hand for evermore , through the perpetual ages of a boundless eternity : this were worth praying , groaning , obeying , suffering for a thousand years , to get read , for , and possessions of at last . on the other hand , to think of the sting of conscience , the company of devils and damned souls , the loss of god , christ , heaven , your precious souls , the burning lake , the bottomless pit , the scorching flames , and this for ever and ever , an endless duration . oh sirs , if you should but look down into that stupendious gulf , what a change would it work in your hearts ? you would banish your vain company , lay aside your worldly business , cast off your sensual pleasures , and mind nothing else till your souls be secured to all eternity . this would be as the cry at midnight , behold the bridegroom cometh , go ye forth to meet him . matth. 25.6 . as sleepy as they were this startled them ; so it would you , as if you heard a voice as out of the clouds ; sinner thou art now summoned to appear before the dreadful tribunal of the all seeing judge , to receive thy final sentence , and to be sent to an everlasting state of weal or woe ; stay not one moment in thy state of unregeneracy ; hast , hast , yea make post hast out of it ; fall to the work of faith and repentance as for thy life ; defer not one day ; now or never . you 'l say , can i make my self meet for heaven ? what can i do ? the work is gods. i answer , god is the efficient , but he will make you instruments in this work . gods grace and mans duty are very consistent . study phil. 2.12 , 13. up and be doing , and god will be with you . though god must turn , yet you must endeavour to turn your selves . ezek. 18.30 , 31. though god make you a new heart , yet he will have you make you a new heart . oh sirs , fall close to the work , examine , prove , try your states by the rule of the word ; attend the most piercing , powerful ministry ; search out all your iniquities , and confess them before the lord with grief , hatred and shame ; beg converting grace as for your lives ; plead with god for pardon through the blood of christ ; solemnly renew your paptismal covenant in taking god for your god , and giving up your selves to him , and then read , meditate , watch and pray , mortifie your beloved lusts , obey the commands of god , and do these things speedily , seriously and constantly , and see what the effect will be . if you will fall to it , well and good , if not , you are guilty of self-murder ; and remember you are this day warned . 2. i turn me to truly gracious souls that are in a safe state for the main , as to habitual meetness , but i fear are far short of that actual meetness that is requisite , as to a lively exercise of suitable graces ; clear evidence of spiritual state ; dispatching work off their hands ; being mortified to time , and longing for heaven . alas , the wise virgins slumbered and slept . i fear few of us are in that readiness we ought to be in , might have been in , or that others have attained to ; nay , it s well if now our souls be in that frame that sometimes we have been in : what decays of love , zeal , tenderness ; what backslidings , deadness , hardness , worldliness , formality do gods children fall into ? what staggerings in our faith of the reality of unseen things ? how uncertain about our title to this inheritance ? doth not our slavish fear of death shew thee ? our instability and variable motions in religion ; our distractions in holy duties ; our frequent closing with temptations , and too oft stepping aside into sin ; our intermitting duties of gods worship , and strangeness growing betwixt god and our souls ; our unreadiness in our accounts ; our unwillingness to go to god : all these too sadly demonstrate our unmeetness for heaven . alas friends , are we not yet meet ! let us be ashamed of our slackness ; what have we been doing with all that time , these helps and priviledges we have had ? have not many young ones and others out-stript us , and are got to heaven , that set out after us ? are we not ashamed of our loytering and lagging behind ? what 's become of the many warnings we have had in our selves and others ? have we any greater matters to mind ? do we not bring dishonour to god , and discredit to our religion by our backwardness ? and can we have that comfort and confidence in meeting the bridegroom of our souls as is fit ? alas , our lord will be less welcome if he surprize us unawares , as i have told you . ah sirs , you little know how near death is , and therefore should be always ready to meet our lord. it is matter of great lamentation that so few of gods children are meet for their home ; and like wayward children are loath to go to bed , though god hath taken a course to weary us out of the world . the lord help us to lament and lay to heart our great unmeetness for heaven . when sin , security , senselesness , steals in upon thy spirit , search it out , mourn for it , confess it , beg a pardon of it , and recover thy self quickly out of it ; be not satisfied with any distance from god ; recover thy wonted familiarity with thy best friend , and mend thy pace towards heaven , as a man in his journey that hath been hindered , hies the faster , to recover his way , lost by his stay ; breath after more likeness to god , fitness for every dispensation , and long to be with god in heaven . alas sirs , you little know how near you are to eternity . you see the sands that are run to the nether end of the glass , but the upper part ( as one saith ) is covered with a mantle , you know not how few sands are yet to run . god forbid that you should have your evidences to procure , when you should have them to produce . if you be not sure of heaven , you are sure of nothing , all worldly things must leave you , or you must leave them . dispatch all , but this , off your hands , and be as the bird on her wings to her nest , or the traveller , whose mind is still on home , home , nothing will please him but home . say with calvin , [ vsquequo domine ? ] how long lord , shall my soul be at a distance from thee ? come lord jesus , come quickly . chap. xii . the second doctrine briefly handled , that a meetness for heaven is a mercy worth thanking god for . i proceed briefly to explain the second doctrine in my text , which is , that its a transcendent mercy worth thanking god for , to be made meet for the heavenly inheritance . if we must thank god for daily-bread , for houses , health , estates , worldly comforts and accommodations for our bodies , how much more should we thank god for heaven , and a meetness for heaven ? without which we shall never come there . the truth of this i shall demonstrate in these seven particulars . 1. spiritual mercies are of most worth , and deserve most thanks from us to god : but this is a spiritual mercy , eph. 1.3 . blessed be the god and father of our lord jesus christ , who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in christ . it is [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ] and so may signifie spiritual things as well as places ; i. e. graces , priviledges , comforts , or whatever hath a tendency to the good of the soul , or eternal salvation in heaven : these indeed are a benjamins portion , a goodly heritage , the quintessence and marrow of all blessings . if god should give you the whole world , and put you off therewith , you are cursed and wretched ; if he give you grace and glory , you are happy , if you had nothing else . our lord thought that a plenary benediction , ( with which he begins his first sermon ) matth. 5.3 . blessed are the poor in spirit , for theirs is the kingdom of god. there 's the mercy promised , and the qualification for it , both choice blessings . 2. that which is the purchase of christ is worth our thanking god for ; but this is the fruit of christs purchase : it s not only a purchased inheritance , nor did christ only purchase us to be heirs of this inheritance , but he hath purchased a meetness in believers for that inheritance . tit. 2.14 . who gave himself for us , that he might redeem us from all iniquity , and purifie to himself a peculiar people , zealous of good works . how do men thankfully celebrate christs nativity ? but that mercy of christs being born into the world , ( though transcendently great ) will never advantage you , unless christ be in you , the hope of glory , col. 1.27 . his dwelling in your hearts by faith , eph. 3.17 . intitles you to the inheritance he hath purchased . look within thee man , as well as without thee , and above thee , for the fruits of christs purchase , and occasions of thankfulness to god. 3. the operations and fruits of the spirit are surely worth thanking god for ; but this is one of the most glorious fruits of the spirit , to fit souls for heaven . our lord promiseth to send the holy ghost to supply the want of his bodily presence , and it is the richest gift that ever proceeded from father and son ; such as have it , out of their belly flow rivers of living water , job . 7.38 , 39. god is to be admired in all the saving works and actings of the spirit , the convincing , humbling , sanctifying , supporting , satisfying , sealing , comforting , quickening , inlarging , confirming , witnessing , and reviving operations of it . alas , we had never lookt after god , had not the holy ghost knockt at our doors ; we had been blind in the things of god , but that the spirit inlightened us ; dead but that the spirit enlivened us ; we had wandered for ever , but that the holy spirit reduced us , our hearts had been for ever hardened from gods fear , had not gods spirits softened us ; we should have been unlike god , but that the holy ghost stampt gods image upon us ; whatever hath been done upon our spirits to fit us for heaven , the holy ghost hath been the agent ; yea , that spirit that we have quenched , grieved , resisted , vexed ; what cause then have we to be very thankful ? this is the golden oyl , that runs through the golden pipes of ordinances into the candlestick of the church . zech. 4.11 , 12. 4. the gospel-dispensation is great matter and ground of thankfulness : it is a mistery which in other ages was not made known to the sons of mon : eph. 3.4 , 5. but what is the marrow and main design of this gospel-revelation ? why , ver . 6. that the gentiles should be fellow heirs , and of the same body , and partakers of his promise in christ by the gospel . oh glorious design ! oh blessed charter ! but what are we better unless we be partners of this priviledge ? therefore chap. 2.19 . saith , christians are fellow-vitizens with the saints . this is the gospel way of infranchising and incorporating poor strangers in the immunities of heaven , and surely this is worth thanking god for . the charters of some cities cost them dear , and the chief captain said to paul , with a great summe obtained i this freedom ; paul said , [ and so may believers say in this sense , ] but i was free-born . acts 22.28 . though it cost christ dear , yet it costs us nothing , but reception . this new jerusalem is built all of free-stone , and shall not our shoutings echo , grace , grace to the head-stone , jesus christ ? zech. 4.7 . especially since our freedom rescues us from hellish tortures , as pauls did him from scourging ; and makes us heirs of heaven . 5. peculiar advantages not afforded to all , gives grounds of thankfulness ; such is this . our lord said , matth. 11.25 , 26. i thank thee o father , lord of he aven and earth , because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent , and hast revealed them unto babes . alas what have any of us , but what we have received ? discriminating kindnesses call for the greatest gratitude : what did god see in any of us that might procure for us heaven ? or within us what preparation for heaven ? you and i are of the same polluted lump of mankind as others : most unlikely to become heirs of such a glorious inheritance as heaven is . what could god see in us to attract his heart to us ? nay , what did he not see in us to turn his stomach against us ? it was the kindness and love of god our saviour : not by works ef righteousness which we had done , but according to his mercy he saved us . tit. 3.3 , 4. alas , what loveliness could god see or foresee in us to make us children , then heirs of god , joynt-heirs with christ ? we may say with honest judas , job . 14.22 . how is it that thou wilt manifest thy self to us , and not unto the world ? it must be answered , even so father , for so it seemed good in thy sight . when thousands are left , why art thou taken ? how came it to pass that when philosophers and wise sages of the world , bewildred so in the dark about felicity , that god should shew you the right way to true happiness , and lead you into it , and in it ? surely all is of free grace . 6. fittedness to any duty or dispensation is a mercy worth thanking god for : such is the christian frame that makes meet for heaven ; such a person is fit to do gods will , or suffer gods will ; he is suited to a prosperous and adverse condition ; his foot standeth in an even place ; like a watch in a mans pocket , turn it this way or that way , it keeps its motion ; so the christian in all conditions , his station and motion heaven-wards . the righteous shall hold on his way , and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger . job 17.9 . he is [ utrinque paratus ] ready for any thing that god calls him to : like the man of god mentioned , 2 tim. 3.17 . that is perfect , throughly furnished unto all good works . oh what a blessed thing is it to be in a capacity to embrace a motion to pray , read , conser , meditate , receive the lords supper upon an invitation from men , or summons from god! the church in cant. 5.2 . found the want of this , when she saith , i sleep , but my heart waketh ; i. e. i have the principle , but want the exercise of grace ; and alas , how unready was she to entertain her beloved , though she had given him a call ; and the sad consequences of this unfit frame are obvious , both as to her sin and suffering : but oh what a mercy is it to have an heart ready pressed for gods service ! give god the glory of it , and its worth something to be in a readiness for mercy , affliction , death , judgment , as those are that are meet for heaven . it was a noble speech of basil , when modestus the praefect threatened confiscation , torments , banishment ; he answered , he need not fear confiscation that hath nothing to lose ; nor banishment to whom heaven only is a countrey ; nor torments , when his body would be dasht with one blow ; nor death , which is the only way to set him at liberty . polycarp was ready for beasts , or any kind of death , for he was ready for heaven : for as this christian is delivered from danger by death , so from the fear of death . heb. 2.15 . death it self is the day break of eternal brightness to the child of god ; and is not this worth thanking god for ? 7. heaven is surely worth thanking god for . could we get a glimpse of that state and place of glory , and this inheritance of the saints in light , together with our title to it ; oh how would it dazzle and transport us ! its said that the temple of diana was so bright , that the door-keeper still cryed to such as entered , take heed to your eyes : much more may we say so of the surprizing glory of the heaven of heavens ; and therefore our lord saith , none can see his face and live : but death blows dust out of the eyes of glorified saints , and the morning-star at the resurrection doth so fortifie the sight , that it can behold this inaccessible light with admiration ; even as all the stars look upon the sun. fear not little flock , saith our saviour , luk. 12.32 . for it is your fathers good pleasure to give you the kingdom . is not a kingdom worth thanks , and such a kingdom ; and to have this freely of gift , not to wade to it through wars and blood , and all this by hereditary right , which is the clearest title . oh sirs , do you know what heaven is ? it is the immediate injoyment of god , an immunity from all evils , a possession of all good , the perfection of our natures , the maturity of our graces , the destruction of all sin , the banishment of satan and his temptations , the fulness of joy , and total death of all grief . indeed it is such a state as can neither be expressed nor conceived . how vile and contemptible would all things below appear to one that with paul , is rapt up into this paradice ! i read of one adrianus an heathen , that was present when martyrs were examined and tormented , he asked , what was the reason they suffered such tortures ; it was answered in the words of that text , 1 cor. 2.9 . eye hath not seen , nor ear heard , neither have entred into the heart of man the things which god hath prepared for them that love him : the very rehearsal of which words converted this adrianus , and he became a martyr also . oh what a transcendent reward is there in these mansions above ! and god doth not grudge us the knowledge of these glorious things . he is not like some rich men that will not let their heirs know , what they will do for them , till they dye ; no , the text saith , ver . 10. that god revealeth them to us by his spirit ; and v. 12. that we may know the things freely given to us of god. we may know them perceptively , not comprehensively ; by faith tho' not by sense . we know but yet in part , [ non rem sed aliquid rei ] but then we shall know as we are known ; [ not as god knoweth us ; for our knowledge and gods must not be so comparatively likened , but ] as holy spirits know us both now and for ever , we shall both know and be known by immediate intuition ; yet in this world god gives his children ( though differently ) some glimpses and dark representations , [ per species , as through a glass ] by metaphors or parables , and this discovery is to raise up our hearts in thankfulness , admiration and longing desires to be above with god. chap. xiii . some practical inferences from this doctrine . use of all this briefly is in four consectaries . 1. that there is undoubtedly such a future state as bliss and blessedness for gods ' children after this life . there remaineth a rest to the people of god. heb. 4.9 . i need not go about to prove this , it s sufficiently and abundantly confirmed by abler hands ; not only from scripture , but nature , reason , divine providence in the world , and the grace of god in the hearts of his people . enough is said to silence atheism in our spirits , and to stop the mouths of all atheists on earth . can any rationally imagine that god should endow man with such a noble soul , and endue that soul with such noble faculties of mind , will , and conscience , and affections , capable of knowing , loving , injoying god , with fears and hopes of a future state , and all this in vain ? can we think the holy , just , good , wise , righteous god will always promote the wicked and punish the godly , and not right these things in the next world ? hath christ come into the world to no purpose ? what would become of his birth , life , doctrine , death , resurrection , ascention , intercession , coming to judgment if there were no life of future retribution ? what would become of the precepts , promises , threatnings , motives , means , helps to an holy life here , and to attain eternal life hereafter , if there were no such thing ? can we imagine that the great god governs the world by a lye . are heaven and hell bug-bears , or meer imaginations of brain-sick fools ? is there not a reality in satans temptations , to draw or drive us from god and future happiness ? or are there no devils or spirits , and so by consequence no god ? away with these wild conceits , contrary to the sentiments of all mankind . 2. then it follows that assurance is attainable ; not only objective assurance , that there is a glorious inheritance , and that god will give it to some ; but subjective also , that this is mine , that its for me ; i have a title to it ; else how could persons thank god for making meet for this inheritance . this assurance ariseth from actings of faith , and produceth rejoycing in hope of this glory of god. rom. 5.1 . the gospel is a gospel of peace , not of fears and doubts . assurance may be had , not only by divine revelation , but in the use of ordinary means . i know in whom i have believed . 2 tim. 1.12 . read on , and you 'l find not only his assurance of his present state , but his perseverance and future felicity ; and it s not his peculiar priviledge , but common to other believers . 2. cor. 5.1 . it s true god is a free agent , and may bestow it on whom , and when he pleaseth : some have it most clearly at first conversion ; as bernard for a time after his conversion , remained , as it were , deprived of his senses , by the excessive consolations he had from god. cyprian saith , he thought before his conversion , it was impossible to find such raptures and ravishments as now he found in a christian course . many a close walking christian can set his seal to this truth ; only it ordinarily comes in after hard conflicts , with temptation , wrestlings with god , much experience , and exact walking with god : there is salvation and there is the joy of gods salvation . psal . 51.12 . this ( saith mr. latimer ) is the sweet-meats of the feast of a good conscience . there are many other dainty dishes at the feast , but this is the banquet : this is better felt then expressed ; but must be endeavoured after , prayed for : ask , saith our lord , and ye shall receive that your joy may be full . joh. 16.24 . 3. that the work of thankfulness is the great duty of a christian . this , this is the proper character and imployment of a christian . god commands it , priviledges call for it , gracious souls have been much in it ; it is comprehensive of mans whole duty . vrsin entitles the practical part of his carechism [ de gratitudine ] of gratitude . oh that christians were more in it ! praise is comely for the upright . this is the epitome of religion , the emblem of heaven , the proper air in which a christian breaths : it s most acceptable to god , creditable to religion , and profitable to the christian . mr. fox tells us , the city zurick ingraved the year of their deliverance from popery upon pillars , in letters of gold , for a lasting memorial : and have not christians cause to thank god for grace and glory ? the heathens could say , call a man ingrateful , and you cannot call him worse . hezekiah brought wrath on himself , judah and jerusalem , for not rendring to the lord according to benefits done to him . 2 chron. 32.25 . oh sirs , you little know what an evil ingratitude is ; you fill your souls with guilt ; you too much resemble wicked men whose character is unthankful : 2 tim. 3.2 . that sin makes hard times ; yea , it makes you like the worst of heathen , for which sin god gave them up ; rom. 1.21 , 24. you act disingenuously , as those that have served their turns of god , and then disown him . how can you own god in the next strait , that are so much in arrears ? will not your mouth be stopt , and conscience fly in your face ? do you not daily depend on god for new mercies ? and is not thankfulness a natural duty ? is not gratitude for spiritual mercies , a great evidence of your interest in them ? and is not every mercy sweetened by thankfulness ? nay is not this a mean to continue them ? the more thankful any have been the more eminent they have been : their graces have shined and glistered like pearls and diamonds . yea once more , the more thankful you are , and the more cause of thankfulness you will both have and see . thankfulness for what you are sure you have , will produce a fuller evidence of that you are doubtful of . the lord humble us for our gross ingratitude ; which is ( as one saith ) a monster in nature , a solaecism in manners , a paradox in divinity , and a parching wind to damme up the fountain of divine favours . you 'l say , oh sir , i could be thankful with all my heart , if i knew i were fit for heaven , and that my soul shall at death enter into peace ; but alas , as long as i am doubtful and at uncertainties , how can i be thankful ? conscience would check and condemn me ; and indeed i have more cause to be humbled and ashamed for my unmeetness , then thankful for any meetness i find in me for heaven . ans . 1. there may be grounds both of humiliation and thankfulness in the same soul and subject . let the best saints do the best they can , and attain to the highest pitch imaginable , they shall have cause of humiliation for their defects . 2. holy jealousie , fears , cares , do well in gods children , to keep them humble ; and indeed , as grace increaseth , fight of imperfections increaseth , and sense of short-coming ; the more discoveries of gods holiness , the viler will the christian be in his own eyes ; as job and isaiah , job 42. isa . 6.5 . and the humbler the soul is the fitter for god. isa . 57.15 . and 66.2 . thank god for that humility . 3. you may and must be thankful for the mercies which you have , and cannot deny but god hath vouchsafed : you have your lives for a prey ; are out of hell , which is more then you deserve ; you have abundant outward mercies , do not these deserve thankfulness ? yea , christ hath purchased grace and glory for some ; nay further , he hath put thousands into possession of this inheritance , and should not this make you thankful ? yea further , heaven is offered to you , and you are under the means of grace , and in a possibility of obtaining this happiness , which devils and damned souls are not ; and is not this ground of thankfulness ? 4. be sure you keep in mind the distinction of habitual and actual meetness for heaven : if you have not the former , either relative or real , be not adopted or justified , are neither converted , nor covenanted with god , i say , the lord have mercy on you , your case is doleful ; you have great cause of lamentation . oh man , i am not now speaking to thee ; be afflicted and mourn , let your laughter be turned into mourning , your joy to heaviness . jam. 4.9 . yea , you graceless rich men , weep and houl , for your miseries that shall come upon you . jam. 5.1 . i have not a word of comfort from the lord to you . your eatthly inheritances shall be taken from you , and you shall be thrust into the dungeon of hell. you may for a while kindle a fire , and walk warm in the sparks you have kindled , but , faith god , this shall you have of mine hand , ye shall lye down in sorrow , isa . 50.11 . stand you by while the saints take comfort in their portion . read isa . 65.13 , 14 , 15. it is to you the heirs of promise , to whom i am now speaking , and bear you this in mind , that its one thing to have right to this inheritance , another to know you have right . many a gracious soul is much in the dark about its relation , yet its state safe for the main . what sayest thou ? hast thou not the things that accompany salvation ? heb. 6.9 . hath not god been dealing with thy heart , as he useth to deal with such as he designs for heaven ? hast thou not seen thy woful state by nature ? the necessity of christ and grace ? hast thou not experienced a change from nature to grace , from death to life ? hath not this new birth cost thee griefs and groans , prayers and tears ? dost thou not delight now in what thou didst disdain ? is not thy principle , rule , end , otherwise then formerly ? hast thou not changed thy company , courses , manner of life ? speak out man , belye not thy self , deny not gods grace ; something like grace thou seest in thy self , and to be sure satan and world oppose it , and man and thy self could not work it . it is of god , a seed sown by the hand of omnipotency . and he that hath begun a good work in you , will perform it until the day of jesus christ . phil. 1.6 . as to actual meetness for heaven , i refer you to what hath been laid down before ; look it over , deal impartially ; see if your experience do not answer those heads ; hath not god helped you in the exercise of the graces of faith , hope , love , humility ? hath not god given you some grounded evidence of sincerity , by diligence in duty , reflection on your state , appealing to god , and pleading with god for the spirits sealings ? hath not god helpt you to be dispatching your work off your hands , spiritual , temporal , relative and publick ? are you not much mortified to corruption , worldly injoyments , and have you not spiritualized earthly things , and got more intimate familiarity with god ? what say you to these things ? do not your hearts eccho back , with your [ probatum est ] setting your seal to these things ? i have not time nor room to inlarge further ; but i would have you diligently compare your selves now with what you were some years ago . is not your repentance more evangelical ? doth not the sense of divine love extort from you more tears of godly sorrow , and more vehement hatred of all sin , purely it is offensive to god ? hath not your faith been more vigorous in its actings upon your dear lord ? in closing more fully with promises ? have you not been more frequent and serious in renewing your covenant with god ? and have not such dayes and duties been solemn heart-melting opportunities ? have you not been more constant and inlarged in the duty of secret prayer , with shorter intermissions and more favouriness ? do you spend your time better then formerly ? do you fill up every vacancy with some useful business for earth or heaven ? have you not more incomes of grace and assistance in duties both as to matter and manner ? to knit your minds , and raise your affections to god , and sometimes suggest words to you ? do you not more concern your selves for the souls of relations and others in prayer and discourse ? being more weighted with the necessity of their conversion ? are you not more endeared to saints as saints , though poor , or disobliging , and of a different perswasion ? have you not got power over your passions , to regulate them ? and if you feel unruly motions , can you pray them down , and through grace calm them ? can you not put up injuries and affronts , and not only so as not to revenge and forgive , but pray more heartily for the repentance and remission of such as are most malicious against you ? is it not more the grief of thy heart when god is dishonoured , his spirit grieved , his gospel reproached by the sins of profane or professours ? if thou think any body is offended by thee , is it not more a real trouble to thee then formerly ? and thou canst not be quiet till thou seekest reconciliation ? and if thou be conscious of giving them just occasion , thou confessest thy fault and humblest thy self to them ? hast thou not learned more faithfully and discreetly to manage the duty of private admonition of an offending christian ? drawing out bowels of compassion for and to such as are fallen ? do not publick concerns of church or nation lye nearer thy heart daily ? canst thou not more rejoyce in the gifts , graces , holiness , usefulness of others , though it obscure thine ? art thou not more glad when corruptions are mortified then gratified ? when occasions of sinning are removed , rather then afforded , though it cost thee dear ? dost thou not more sensibly understand the sweet life of faith in temporals ? committing all to god , thou findest provisions have been strangely made ? are not thy affections more spiritualized towards dearest relations ? dost thou not love them in the lord , and the lord in them , and canst freely part with them upon gods call ? art thou not more taken up with gods mercies , to give him the glory of them , then any personal content thou hast in them ? is not thy heart daily more weary of the world , and longing for heaven ? yet after all this canst thou not say , thou art nothing , deservest nothing but hell ? and if god glorifie his justice in thy confusion , thy mouth is stopped , and thou must justifie him for ever with flames about thine eares ? dost thou not account thy self the greatest of sinners , least of saints , and by the grace of god thou art what thou art ? and this thou canst truly say , that god is more thy exceeding joy , and christ more precious to thy soul then ever ? canst thou in thy sober , solid , setled frame , answer these questions , thy state is safe and sweet , and thou art meet for heaven ; yet not so meet , but still breathing after more meetness , till thy last gasp of breath ; for no man on this side death was ever meet enough , and all must be ascribed to grace , grace in the foundation , grace in the topstone : i shall conclude all with a part of a poem in mr. herbert , called grace ; p. 52. death is still working like a mole , and digs my grave at each remove : let grace work too , and on my soul , drop from above . sin is still hammering my heart vnto an hardness void of love ; let suppling grace to cross his art , drop from above . o come ! for thou dost know the way , or if to me thou wilt not move ; remove me where i need not say , drop from above . 2 cor. 5.8 . we are confident , i say , and willing rather to be absent frrm the body , and to be present with the lord. amen . finis . some books to be sold by thomas parkhurst , at the bible and three crowns in cheapside . a call to sinners , such as are under sentence of death , and such as are under any prospect of it from the long suffering , and gracious , but most righteous god. three questions resolved briefly and plainly , viz. 1. what conceptions ought we to have of the blessed god ? 2. what are those truths , whereof the knowledge appeareth most indispensably necessary unto our salvation ; and ( therefore ) to be first and most learnt by us ? 3. what is the change wrought in a man by gods h. word and spirit , before he can safely conclude himself passed from death to life ? being the summ of three sermons . the christian temper : or , the quiet state of mind that gods servants labour for . set forth in a sermon at the funeral of mrs. vrsula collins . a seasonable question plainly resolved , ( viz. ) what are we to judge of their spiritual estate who neglect the lords supper . and what is that discerning of the lords body in it , without which men do eat and drink their own damnation . the christians earnest expectation and longing for the glorious appearing of the great god and our saviour jesus christ . set forth in a discourse occasioned by the decease of that excellent christian and minister of christ , mr. noah webb , late of sandhurst in the county of berks. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a43583-e1360 in answer to this question , see 3 opinions in dr. tuckney . theses & praet . theol. ubi videa praeclare furius disputata p. 269. ad p. 292. a review of the true nature of schisme, with a vindication of the congregationall churches in england, from the imputation thereof unjustly charged on them by mr d. cawdrey, preacher of the word at billing in northampton-shire. / by john owen d.d. owen, john, 1616-1683. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a90287 of text r203102 in the english short title catalog (thomason e1664_1). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 225 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 94 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a90287 wing o803 thomason e1664_1 estc r203102 99863179 99863179 115364 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a90287) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 115364) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 208:e1664[1]) a review of the true nature of schisme, with a vindication of the congregationall churches in england, from the imputation thereof unjustly charged on them by mr d. cawdrey, preacher of the word at billing in northampton-shire. / by john owen d.d. owen, john, 1616-1683. [6], 181, [1] p. printed by henry hall printer to the university, for thomas robinson., oxford, : m.dc.lvii. [1657] a defense of his "of schisme" in reply to "independencie a great schism" by daniel cawdrey. annotation on thomason copy: "7ber [i.e. september] 25". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng owen, john, 1616-1683. -of schisme -early works to 1800. cawdrey, daniel, 1588-1664. -independencie a great schism -early works to 1800. congregationalism -apologetic works -early works to 1800. schism -early works to 1800. a90287 r203102 (thomason e1664_1). civilwar no a review of the true nature of schisme,: with a vindication of the congregationall churches in england, from the imputation thereof unjustl owen, john 1657 38464 23 75 0 0 0 0 25 c the rate of 25 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-04 john latta sampled and proofread 2008-04 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a review of the true nature of schisme , with a vindication of the congregationall churches in england , from the imputation thereof unjustly charged on them by mr d. cawdrey , preacher of the word at billing in northampton-shire . by john owen d. d. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . 2 tim. 2. 24. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} : tit. 1. 7. oxford , printed by henry hall printer to the university , for thomas robinson . m. dc . lvii . christian reader . it is now about three weekes since , that there was sent unto me , a book intituled , independency a great schisme ; as the frontispeece farther promiseth , undertaken to be mannaged against something written by me , in a treatise about the true nature of schisme , published about a yeare agoe ; with an addition of a charge of inconstancy in opinion , upon my selfe : of the one , and the other , the ensueing discourse will give a farther and full account . coming unto my hands at such a season , wherein , as it is knowne , i was pressed with more then ordinary occasions of sundry sorts , i thought to have deferred the examination of it , untill farther leasure might be obtained , supposing that some faire advantage would be administred by it , to a farther christian debate , of that discovery of truth , and tender of peace , which in my treatise i had made . engaging into a cursory perusall of it , i found the reverend authors designe , and discourse , to be of that tendency , and nature , as did not require , nor would admit of any such delay : his manifold mistakes in apprehending the intention of my treatise and of the severalls of it his open presumption of his owne principles , as the sourse and spring of what pretends to be argumentative in his discourse , arbitrarily inferring from them , without the least attempt of proofe , whatever tenders its assistance to cast reproach on them with whom he hath to do , his neglect in providing a defence for himselfe by any principles not easily turned upon him , against the same charge which he is pleased to mannage against me : his avowed laying the foundation of his whole fabrick , in the sand of notoriously false suppositions , quickly delivered me from the thoughts of any necessity to delay the consideration of what he tendred to make good the title of his discourse . the open and manifest injury done , not only to my selfe , in laying things to my charge which i know not , lading me with reproaches , tending to a rendring of me odious to all the ministers and churches in the world , not agreeing with me in somefew things concerning gospell administrations , but also to all other churches and persons of the same judgment with my selfe , called for a speedy account of the true state of the things contended about . thou hast therefore here christian reader the product ( through the grace of him who supplyeth seed to the sower ) of the spare houres of foure or five daies , in which space of time this ensuing discourse was begun and finished : expect not therefore any thing from it , but what is necessary for the refutation of the book , whereunto it is opposed ; and as to that end and purpose , i leave it to thy strictest judgment . only i shall desire thee to take notice , that having kept my selfe to a bare defence , i have resolvedly forborne all recharge on the presbyterian way , either as to the whole of it , whence by way of distinction it is so called , or as to the differences in judgment and practise of them who professe that way , among themselves , which at this day , both in this and the neighbour nation , are more and greater , then any that our author hath as yet been able to find amongst them whom he doth principally oppose . as the ensuing sheets were almost wrought of at the presse , there came to my hand a vindication of that eminent servant of god ▪ mr john cotton , from the unjust imputations and charge of the reverend person with whom i have now to do , written by himselfe not long before his death ; the opportunity of publishing that discourse , with the ensueing , being then lost , i thought meet to let the reader know , that a short season will furnish him with it . farewell , and love , truth , and peace . ch : ch : coll : oxon : july : 9. 1657. a vindication of the treatise about the true nature of schisme . &c. chap. 1. the present state of things in the christian world , will on a slight consideration yeeld this account of controversies in religion ; that when they are driven to such an issue , as by forraigne coincidences to be rēdered the interest of parties at variance , there is not any great successe to be obtained by a mannagement of thē , though with never so much evidence and conviction of truth . an answering of the profession that is on us , by a good and lawfull meanes , the paying of that homage and tribute we owe to the truth , the tendring of assistance to the safe-guarding of some weaker professours thereof , from the sophismes and violence of adversaries , is the most that in such a posture of things , the most sober writers of controversies can well aime at . the winning over of men to the truth we seeke to maintaine , where they have beene preingaged in an opposition unto it , without the alteration of the outward state of things , whence their engagements have insensibly sprung and risen , is not ordinarily to be expected . how farre i was from any such thoughts in the composing and publishing my treatise of the nature of schisme , i declared in sundry passages in the treatise its selfe . though the thing contended about , whatsoever is pretended to the contrary , will not be found amongst the most important heads of our religion , yet knowing how farre on sundry accounts the stated , fixed interest of severall sorts of men , ingageth them to abide by the principles they owne in reference thereunto ▪ i was so farre from hoping to see speedily any visible fruits of the efficacie of the truth i had mannaged , that i promised my selfe a vigorous opposition , untill some urgent providence , or time , altering the frame of mens spirits should make way for its acceptance . freely i left it in the hand of him , whose truth , i have good security i had in weaknesse maintained , to dispose of it with its issues and events at his pleasure . i confesse knowing severall parties to be concerned in an opposition to it , i was not well able to conjecture from what hand the first assault of it would arise . probability cast it on them , who looked on themselves in the nearest proximitie of advantage by the common notion of schisme opposed . the truth is , i did apprehend my selfe not justly chargeable with want of charity , if i thought that opposition would arise from some other principles , than mere zeale for a supposed truth , and therefore tooke my aime in conjecturing at the prejudices that men might feare themselves and interests obnoxious unto by a reception and establishment of that notion of schisme , which i had asserted . mens contentednesse to make use of their quietnesse in reference to popery , socinianism , arminianism , daily vented amongst us , unlesse it were in some declamatory expressions against their toleration , which cost no more than they are worth , if shaken off by a speedy engagement against my treatise , confirmed such thoughts in mee . after therefore it had passed in the world for some season , and had found acceptance with many learned and godly persons , reports began to be raised about a designe for the refutation of it ; that so it should be dealt withall i heard was judged necessary at sundry conventions ; what particular hand it was likely the taske would fall upon , judging my selfe not concerned to know , i did not enquire . when i was informed how the disposall of the businesse did succeed , as i was not at all surprized in reference to the party in generall from which it did issue , so i did relieve my selfe under my fears , and loathing to be ingag'd in these contests by these ensuing considerations . 1. that i was fully perswaded that what i had written was for the substance of it the truth of god , and being concern'd in it only on truths account , if it could be demonstrated that the sentence i had asserted , was an unlawfull pretender thereunto , i should be delivered from paying any further respect or service to that , whereunto none at all was due . 2. that in the treatise its selfe so threatned , i had laid in provision against all contending about words , expressions , collaterall assertions , deductions , positions , all and every thing , though true , that might be separated from the life or substance of the notion , or truth pleaded for . 3. that whereas the whole weight of the little pile turned on one single hing , and that visible & cōspicuous , capable of an ocular demonstration , as to its confirmation or refutation , i promised my selfe that any man who should undertake the demolishing of it , would be so farre from passing that by , and setting himselfe to the superstruction , that subsists in its single strength and vigour , that indeed finding that one thing necessary for him , he would solely attempt that , and therein rest . this i knew was evident to any considering person that should but view the treatise , that if that foundation were cast downe , the whole superstructure would fall with its owne weight : but if left standing , an hundred thousand volumes against the rest of the treatise could not in the least prejudice the cause undertaken to be mannaged in it . men might indeed by such attempts manifest my weaknesse and want of skill , in making inferences and deductions from principles of truth , wherein i am not concern'd , but the truth its selfe contended for , would still abide untouched . 4. having expresly waved mans day , and judgement , i promised my selfe security from a disturbance by urging against me the authority of any , of old or late ; supposing that from the eviction of their severall interests , i had emancipated my my selfe from all subjection to their bare judgements in this cause . 5. whereas i had confin'd my selfe to a bare defensative of some , not intending to cast others from the place , which in their owne apprehensions they do enjoy , ( unlesse it was the roman party ) i had some expectations that peace-loving godly men , would not be troubled that an apparent immunity from a crime was without their prejudice or disadvantage manifested in behalfe of their brethren , nor much paine themselves to reinforce the charge accounted for . so that the bare notion of schisme , and the nature of it abstracted from the consideration of persons , would come under debate . indeed i questioned whether in that friendly composure of affections , which for sundry yeares hath been carrying on betweene sober and godly men of the presbyterian and congregationall judgement , any person of reall godlinesse would interest himselfe to blow the coale of dissension , and engage in new exasperations . i confesse i alwaies thought the plea of cicero for ligarius against tubero most unreasonable ; namely , that if he had told ( as he calls it ) an honest and mercifull lye in his behalfe , yet it was not the part of a man to refell it , especially of one who was accused of the same crime : but yet i must needs say , a prompt readinesse to follow most questionable accusations against honest defēsatives , frō good men unjustly accused by others of the same crime , i did not expect . i added this also in my thoughts , that the facility of tendring a discourse to the purpose , on the businesse under consideration , was obviated by its being led out of the common rode , wherin common place supplies would be of litle use to any that should undertake it : not once suspecting that any man of learning and judgment would make a returne unto it out of vulgar discourses about ministers calling , church government or the like . how farre these and the like considerations might be a releife unto my thoughts , in my feares of further controversiall ingagements , having the pressure of more business upō me than any one mā i know of my calling in the whole nation , i leave it to the judgment of them who love truth and peace . but what litle confidence i ought in the present posture of the minds of men , to have placed in any or all of them , the discourse vnder consideration hath instructed me : that any one thing hath fallen out according to my expectations and conjectures , but only its being a product of the men , of the perswasion owned therin , i am yet to seeke . the truth is i cannot blame my adversary viis et modis to make good the opposition he is ingaged in ; it concernes him and his advisers beyond their interest in the appearing skirts of this controversy . perhaps also an adjudged necessity of indeavoring a disreputation to my person and writings , was one ingredient in the undertaking . if so , the whole frame was to be carried on by correspondent medium's . but let the principles and motives to this discourse be what they will , it is now made publick , there being a warmer zeale acting therin , then in carrying on some other thinges , expected from the same hand . to what may seeme of importance in it , i shall with all ▪ possible plainesse give a returne . had the reverend author of it thought good , to have kept within the bounds , by me fixed , and candidly debated the notion proposed , abstracting from the provocations of particular applications , i should most willingly have taken paines for a further clearing and manifesting of the truth contended about . but the whole discourse wherewith i have now to do , is of another complexion , and the designe of it , of another tendency ; yea so mannaged sometimes , that i am ready to question whether it be the product and fruite of his spirit whose name it bears : for though he be an utter stranger to me , yet i have received such a character of him , as would raise mee to an expectation of any thing from him , rather then such a discourse . the reader will be able to perceive an account of these thoughts in the ensuing view of his treatise . 1. i am without any provocation intended , and i hope given , reviled from one end of it to the other ; and called , partly in down right termes , partly by oblique intimations , whose reflections are not to be waved , sathan , atheist ; sceptick , donatist , heretick , schismaticke , sectarie , pharisee , &c. and the closure of the book is merely an attempt to blast my reputation , whereof i shall give a speedy account . 2. the professed designe of the whole is to prove independency , as he is pleased to call it , which what it is , he declares not , nor ( as he mannages the businesse ) do i know , to be a great schisme , and that independents , ( by whom it is full well knowne whom he intends ) are schismaticks , sectaries , the troublers of england . so that it were happy for the nation , if they were out of it ; or discovering sanguinary thoughts in reference unto them ; and these kinds of discourses fill up the booke , almost from one end to the other . 3. no christian care doth seeme to have been taken , nor good conscience exercised from the beginning to the ending , as to imputation of any thing unto me , or upon mee , that may serve to help on the designe in hand . hence i think it is repeated neare an hundred times , that i deny their ministers to be ministers , & their churches to be churches , that i deny all the reformed churches in the world , but onely our owne ( as he calls them ) to be true churches , all which is notoriously untrue , contrary to my knowne judgement , professedly declared on all occasions , contrary to expresse affirmations in the booke he undertakes to confute , and the whole designe of the booke its selfe . i cannot easily declare my surprizall on this account . what am i to expect from others , when such reverend men as this author , shall by the power of prejudice be carried beyond all bounds of moderation , and christian tendernesse in offending ? i no way doubt but that sathan hath his designe in this whole businesse . he knowes how apt we are to fixe on such provocations , and to contribute thereupon to the increase of our differences . can he according to the course of things in the world , expect any other issue , but that in the necessary defensative i am put upon , i should not wave such reflexions and retortions on him , and them with whom i have to do , as present themselves with as faire pleas , and pretences unto me , as it is possible for me to judge , that the charges before mentioned ( i meane of schisme , heresie , and the like ) did unto him . for as to a returne of any thing in its owne nature false and untrue , as to matter of fact , to meet with that of the like kind wherewith i am entertained , i suppose the divell himselfe was hopelesse to obtaine it . is he not filled with envie to take notice in what love without dissimulation i walk with many of the presbyterian judgment ? what christian entercourse , and communion i have with them in england , scotland , holland , france , fearing that it may tend to the furtherance of peace & union among the churches of christ ? god assisting i shall deceive his expectations , and though i be called schismatick , and heretick a thousand times , it shall not weaken my love or esteeme , of , or towards any of the godly ministers , or people of that way and judgment with whom i am acquainted , or have occasion of converse . and for this reverend author himself , i shall not faile to pray , that none of the things , whereby he hath , i feare , administred advantage unto satan to attempt the exasperations of the spirits of brethren one against another , may ever be laid to his charge . for my owne part i professe in all sincerity , that such was my unhappinesse , or rather happinesse in the constant converse which in sundry places i have with persons of the presbyterian judgment , both of the english and scottish nation , utterly of another frame of spirit , then that which is now shewed , that untill i saw this treatise , i did not believe that there had remained in any one godly , sober , judicious person in england , such thoughts of heart in reference to our present differences , as are visible and legible therein : tantaené animis coelestibus irae ? i hope the reverend author will not be offended , if i make bold to tell him , that it will be no joy of heart to him one day , that he hath taken paines to cast oyle on those flames , which it is every ones duty to labour to extinguish . but that the whole matter in difference may be the better stated and determined , i shall first passe through with the generall concernments of the book it selfe , and then consider the severall chapters of it , as to any particulars in them that may seem to relate to the businesse in hand . it may possibly not a little conduce towards the removall of those obstructions unto peace and love , laid in our way by this reverend author , and to a clearer stating of the controversie ▪ pretended to be ventilated in his discourse , to discover and lay aside those mistakes of his , which being interwoven with the main discourse from the beginning to the end , seeme as principles to animate the whole , and to give it that life of trouble , whereof it is partaker . some of them were , as absolutely considered , remarked before ; i shall now renew the mention of them , with respect to that influence which they have into the argumentative part of the treatise under consideration . 1. first then it is strenuously supposed all along , that i deny all , or any churches in england , to be true churches of christ , except only the churches gathered in the congregationall way , and upon their principles : then that i deny all the reformed churches beyond the seas to be true churches of christ . this supposition being laid , as the foundation of the whole building , a confutation of my treatise is fixed thereon , a comparison is instituted betweene the donatists and my selfe : arguments are produced to prove their churches to be true churches , and their ministers true ministers . the charge of schisme on this bottome is freely given out and asserted , the proofe of my schismaticall separation from hence deduced , and many termes of reproach are returned as a suitable reply to the provocation of this opinion . how great a portion of a small treatise may easily be taken up with discourses relating to these heads , is easie to apprehend . now lest all this paines should be found to be uselesse , and causlesly undergone , let us consider how the reverend author proves this to be my judgment . doth he evince it from any thing deliver'd in that treatise he undertakes to confute ? doth he produce any other testimonies out of what i have spoken , deliver'd , or written else where , and on other occasions to make it good ? this i suppose he thought not of , but took it for granted , that either i was of that judgment , or it was fit i should be so , that the difference between us might be as great , as he desired to have it appeare to be . well to put an end to this controversie , seeing he would not believe , what i told the world of my thoughts herein in my book of schisme , i now informe him again , that all thes surmises are fond & untrue . and truly for his own sake with that respect which is due to the reputation of religion , i here humbly intreate him not to entertain what is here affirm'd with un-christian surmizes , which the apostle reckons amongst the works of the flesh , as though i were of another mind but durst not declare it , as more then on●● in some particulars he insinuates the state of things with me to be . but blessed be the god of my salvation , and of all my deliverances , i have yet liberty to declare the whole of my judgment in and about the things of his worship . blessed be god , it is not as yet in the power of some men to bring in that their conceited happiness into england , which would in their thoughts accrew unto it , by my removall from my native soyle , with all others of my judgment and perswasion . we are yet at peace , and we trust that the lord will deliver us from the hands of men , whose tender mercies are cruell . however be it known unto them that if it be the will of the lord upon our manifold provocations to give us up to their disposall , who are pleased to compasse us with the ornaments of reproaches before mentioned , that so we might fall as a sacrifice to rage or violence , we shall through his assistance and presence with us , dare to professe the whole of that truth , and those waies of his , which he hath been pleased to revea● unto us . and if on any other account this reverend person suppose i may foster opinions and thoughts of mine owne and their waies which i dare not owne , let him at any time give me a command to waite upon him , and as i will freely and candidly answer to any enquiries he shall be pleased to make after my judgment , and apprehensions of these things , so he shall find that ( god assisting ) i dare owne , and will be ready to maintaine what i shall so deliver to him . it is a sufficient evidence that this reverend author is an utter stranger to me , or he would scarce entertaine such surmizes of me as he doth . shall i call in witnesses as to the particular under consideration ? one evidence by way of instance lies so neare at hand , that i cannot omit the producing of it : not above 14 daies before this treatise came to my hands , a learned gentleman whom i had prevailed withall to answer in the vespers of our act , sent me his questions by a doctor of the presbyterian judgment , a friend of his , and mine . the first question was , as i remember , to this purpose : utrū ministri ecclesiae anglicanae habeant validam ordinationem ; i told the doctor , that since the questions were to passe under my approbation , i must needs confesse my selfe scrupled at the limitation of the subject of the question in that terme ecclesia anglicana , which would be found ambiguous and aequivocall in the disputation ; and therefore desired that he would rather supply it with ecclesiarum reformatarum , or some other expression of like importance , but as to the thing it selfe aimed at , namely the assertion of the ministry of the godly ministers in england , i told him and so now do the reverend author of this treatise , that i shall as willingly ingage in the defence of it , with the lawfulnesse of their churches , as any man what ever . i have only in my treatise questioned the institution of a nationall church , which this author doth not undertake to maintaine , nor indeed hath the least reason so to do , for the asserting of true ministers and churches in england ; i meane those of the presbyterian way . what satisfaction now this reverend author shall judge it necessary for him to give me , for the publicke injury which voluntarily he hath done me , in particular for his attempt to expose me to the censure and displeasure of so many godly ministers and churches as i owne in england , as a person denying their ministry , and church station , i leave it to himselfe to consider . and by the declaration of this mistake how great a part of his book is waved as to my concernments therein , himsefe full well knows . a second principle of like importance which he is pleased to make use of , as a thing granted by me , or at least which he assumes , as that which ought so to be , is that what ever the presbyterian ministers and churches be , i have separated from them , as have done all those whom he calls independants . this is another fountaine out of which much bitter water flows . hence we must needs be thought to condemne their ministry and churches . the brownists were our fathers , and the anabaptists are our elder brothers , we make an harlot of our mother , and are schismaticks and sectaries from one end of the book to the other . quod erat demonstrandum . but doth not this reverend author know that this is wholly denyed by us ? is it not disproved sufficiently in that very treatise which he undertakes to answer ? he grants , i suppose , that the separation he blames , must respect some union of christs institution : for any other , we professe our selves unconcerned in its maintenance , or dissolution , as to the businesse in hand . now wherein have we separated from them as to the breach of any such union ? for an individuall person to change from the constant participation of ordinances in one congregation , to do so in another , barely considered in its selfe , this reverend author holds to be no separation . however for my part , who am forced to beare all this wrath and storme , what hath he to lay to my charge ? i condemne not their churches in generall , to be no churches , nor any one that i am acquainted withall in particular . i never disturb'd , that i know of , the peace of any one of them , nor separated from them ; but having already received my punishment , i expect to heare my crime by the next returne . 3. he supposeth throughout that i deny not only the necessity of a successive ordination , but as farre as i can understand him , the lawfulnesse of it also . by ordination of ministers many upon a mistake understand onely the imposition of hands that is used therein . ordination of ministers is one thing , and imposition of hands another , differing as whole and part ; ordination in scripture compriseth the whole authoritative translation of a man from among the number of his brethren into the state of an officer in the church . i suppose he doth not thinke that this is denied by mee , though he tels me with the same christian candor , and tendernesse , which he exerciseth in every passage almost of his booke , of making my selfe a minister , and i know not what ; i am , i blesse the lord , extreamly remote from returning him any of his own coyne in satisfaction for this love . for that part of it which consists in the imposition of hands by the presbytery , ( where it may be obtained according to the mind of christ . ) i am also very remote from mannaging any opposition unto it . i thinke it necessary by vertue of precept , and that to be continued in a way of succession . it is , i say , according to the mind of christ , that he who is to be ordained unto office in any church , receive imposition of hands from the elders of that church , if there be any therein . and this is to be done in a way of succession , that so the churches may be perpetuated . that alone which i oppose is the denying of this successive ordination , through the authority of antichrist . before the blessed and glorious reformation , begun ●nd carried on by zuinglius , luther , calvin , and others , there were , and had been two states of men in the world , professing the name of christ , and the gospell , as to the outward profession thereof . the one of them in glory , splendor , outward beauty , and order , calling themselves the church , the only church in the world , the catholike church ; being indeed , and in truth in that state wherein they so prided themselves the mother of harlots , the beast , with his false prophet . the other party poore , despised , persecuted , generally esteemed and called hereticks , schismaticks , or as occasion gave advantage for their farther reproach , waldenses , albigenses , lollards , and the like . as to the claime of a successive ordination down from the apostles , i made bold to affirme , that i could not understand the validity of that successive ordination , as successive , which was derived downe unto us from , and by the first partie of men in the world . this reverend authors reply hereunto , is like the rest of his discourse , pag. 118. he tels me , this casts dirt in the face of their ministry , as do all their good friends the sectaries , and that he hath much a doe to forbeare saying , the lord rebuke thee . how he doth forbeare it , having so expressed the frame of his heart towards me , others will judge : the searcher of all hearts knowes , that i had no designe to cast dirt on him , or any other godly man's ministry in england . might not another answer have been returned without this wrath : this is so , or it is not so , in reference to the ministry of this nation . if it be not so , and they plead not their successive ordination from rome , there is an end of this difference . if it be so , can mr. c. hardly refraine from calling a man sathan , for speaking the truth ? it is well if we know of what spirit we are . but let us a little farther consider his answer in that place . he asketh first , why may not this be a sufficient foundation for their ministry , as well as for their baptisme ? if it be so , & be so acknowledged , whence is that great provocation that arose from my enquiry after it : for my part i must tell him , that i judge their baptisme good and valid , but to deale clearly with him , not on that foundation . i cannot believe , that that idolater , murtherer , man of sin , had , since the dayes of his open idolatry , persecution , and enmity to christ , any authority more or lesse from the lord jesus committed to him , in or over his churches . but he addes , secondly , that had they received their ordination from the woman flying into the wildernesse , the two witnesses , or waldenses , it had been all one to mee , and my party ; for they had not their ordination from the people ( except some extraordinary cases ) but from a presbytery , according to the institution of christ . so then , ordination by a presbytery , is it seemes opposed by me and my party ; but i pray sir , who told you so ? when , wherein , by what meanes have i opposed it ? i acknowledge my selfe of no party . i am sory so grave a minister should suffer himselfe to be thus transported , that every answer , every reply , must be a reflection , and that without due observation of truth and love . that-those first reformers had their ordination from the people , is acknowledged ; i have formerly evinced it by undeniable testimony . so that the proper succession of a ministry amongst the churches that are their off-spring , runs up no higher than that rise . now the good lord blesse them in their ministry , and the successive ordination they enjoy , to bring forth more fruit in the earth to the praise of his glorious grace . but upon my disclaiming all thoughts of rejecting the ministry of all those , who yet hold their ordination on the accompt of its successive derivation from rome , he cries out , egregiam verò laudem , and saies that yet i secretly derive their pedigree from rome : well then he doth not so ; why then , what need these exclamations ? we are as to this matter wholly agreed ; nor shall i at present farther pursue his discourse in that place , it is almost totally composed and made up of scornefull revilings , reflections , and such other ingredients of the whole . he frequently & very positively affirms without the least hesitation , that i have renounced my own ordination , & adds hereunto , that what ever else they pretend , unlesse they renounce their ordination , nothing will please me . that i condemn all other churches in the world as no churches ; but who i pray told him these things ? did he enquire so far after my mind in them , as without breach of charity to be able to make such positive and expresse assertions concerning them ? a good part of his book is taken up in the repetition of such things as these , drawing inferences and conclusions from the suppositions of them , and warming himselfe by them into a great contempt of my selfe and party , as he calls them . i am now necessitated to tell him , that all these things are false , and utterly , in part and in whole untrue , and that he is not able to prove any one of them . and whether this kind of dealing becomes a minister of the gospell , a person professing godlinesse , i leave it to himselfe to judge . for my owne part i must confesse that as yet i was never so dealt withall by any man , of what party soever , although it hath been my unhappinesse to provoke many of them . i do not doubt but that he will be both troubled and ashamed when he shall review these things . that whole chapter , which he entitles , independentisme is donatisme , as to his application of it unto me , or any of my perswasion , is of the same importance , as i have sufficiently already evinced . i might instance in sundry other particulars , wherein he ventures without the least check or supposition , to charge me with what he pleaseth , that may serve the turn in hand ; so that it may serve to bring in , he and his party are schismaticks , are sectaries , have separated from the church of god , are the cause of all our evills and troubles , with the like tearmes of reproach , and hard censures , lying in a faire subserviency to a designe of widening the difference between us , and mutually exasperating the spirits of men , professing the gospell of jesus christ , one against another , nothing almost comes amisse . his sticking upon by matters , diverting from the maine business in hand , answering arguments by reflections , and the like , might also be remarked . one thing wherein he much rejoyceth , and fronts his book with the discovery he hath made of it , namely concerning my change of judgment as to the difference under present debate , which is the substance and designe of his appendix , must be particularly considered , and shall be , god assisting , in the next chapter accordingly . chap. 2. an answer to the appendix of mr. c● . charge . though perhaps impartiall men will be willing to give me an acquitment from the charge of altering my judgment in the matters of our present difference , upon the generall account of the copartnership with me of the most inquiring men in this generation , as to things of no lesse importance ; and though i might against this reverend brother and others of the same mind and perswasion with him , at present relieve my selfe sufficiently by a recrimination , in reference to their former episcopall engagements , and sundry practices in the worship of god them attending , pleading in the meane time the generall issue of changing from error to truth , ( which that i have done as to any change i have really made , i am ready at any time to mainetaine to this author ) yet it being so much insisted upon by him as it is , and the charge thereof in the instance given , accompanied with so many evill surmisings , and uncharitable reflections , looking like the fruits of another principle then that whereby we ought in the mannagement of our differences to be ruled , i shall give a more particular account of that , which hath yeilded him this great advantage . the sole instance insisted on by him , is a small treatise published long agoe by me , intitled , the duty of pastors and people distinguished ; wherein i professe my selfe to be of the presbyterian judgment . excerpta out of that treatise , with animadversions and comparisons thereon , make up the appendix , which was judged necessary to be added to the book , to help on with the proofe that independency is a great schisme : had it not been indeed needfull to cause the person to suffer , as well as the thing , some suppose this paines might have been spared . but i am not to prescribe to any , what way it is meet for them to proceed in , for the compassing of their ends aimed at . the best is , here is no new thing produced , but what the world hath long since taken notice of , and made of it the worst they can . neither am i troubled that i have a necessity laid upon me to give an account of this whole matter . that little treatise was written by me in the yeare 1643 , and then printed , however it received the addition of a yeare in the date affixed to it by the printers , which for their owne advantage is a thing usuall with them . i was then a young man my selfe , about the age of 26. or 27. yeares . the controversie between independencie and presbytery was young also ; nor indeed by mee clearly understood , especially as stated on the congregationall side . the conceptions delivered in the treatise were not ( as appeares in the issue ) suited to the opinion of the one party , nor of the other ; but were such as occurred to mine owne naked consideration of things , with relation to some differences that were then upheld in the place where i lived , only being unacquainted with the congregationall way , i professed my selfe to owne the other party , not knowing but that my principles were suited to their judgement and profession ; having looked very little further into those affaires , then i was led by an opposition to episcopacy & ceremonies . upon a review of what i had thē asserted , i found that my principles were far more suited to what is the judgment and practice of the congregationall men , then those of the presbiterian . only whereas i had not received any farther cleare information in these waies of the worship of god , which since i have been ingaged in , as was said , i professed my selfe of the presbyterian judgment , in opposition to democraticall confusion ; and indeed so i do still ; and so do all the congregationall men in england , that i am acquainted withall ▪ so that when i compare what then i wrote with my present judgment , i am scarce able to find the least difference between the one and the other ; only a misapplication of names and things by me , gives countenance to this charge . indeed not long after , i set my selfe seriously to enquire into the controversies then warmly agitated in these nations . of the congregationall way i was not acquainted with any one person , minister or other ; nor had i to my knowledg seen any more then one in my life . my acquaintance lay wholly with ministers , and people of the presbyterian way . but sundry books being published on either side , i perused , and compared them with the scripture , and one another , according as i received ability from god . after a generall view of them , as was my manner in other controverses , i fixed on one to take under peculiar consideration , and examination , which seemed most methodically , and strongly to maintaine that which was contrary as i thought to my present perswasion . this was mr. cotton's book of the keyes . the examination and confutation hereof , meerly for my owne particular satisfaction , with what diligence , and sincerity i was able , i ingag'd in . what progresse i made in that undertaking , i can manifest unto any , by the discourses on that subject , and animadversions on that book yet abiding by me . in the pursuit and management of this work , quite besides , and contrary to my expectation , at a time , and season wherein i could expect nothing on that account but ruine in this world , without the knowledge or advice of , or conference with any one person of that judgment , i was prevailed on to receive that and those principles , which i had thought to have set my selfe in an opposition unto . and indeed this way of impartiall examining all things by the word , comparing causes with causes , and things with things , laying aside all prejudicate respects unto persons , or present traditions , is a course that i would admonish all to beware of , who would avoid the danger of being made independents . i cannot indeed deny , but that it is possible i was advantaged in the disquisition of the truth i had in hand , from my former imbracing of the principles laid down in the treatise insisted on ; now being by this means setled in the truth , which i am ready to maintaine to this reverend and learned auhor , if he , or any other suppose they have any advantage hereby against me , as to my reputation , which alone is sought in such attempts as this : or if i am blameably liable to the charge of inconstancy , and inconsistency with my owne principles , which he thought meet to front his book withall , hereupon i shall not labour to devest him of his apprehension , having abundant cause to rejoice in the rich grace of a mercifull and tender father , that men seeking occasion to speake evill of so poor a worme , tossed up and down in the midst of innumerable temptations , i should be found to fix on that , which i know will be found my rejoicing in the day of the lord jesus . i am necessitated to adde somewhat also to a surmise of this reverend man , in reference to my episcopall compliances in former daies , and strict observation of their canons . this indeed i should not have taken notice of , but that i find others besides this author pleasing themselves with this apprehension , and endeavoring an advantage against the truth i professe thereby . how little some of my adversaries are like to gaine , by branding this as a crime is known ; and i professe i know not the conscience , that is exercised in this matter . but to deliver them once for all from involving themselves in the like unchristian procedure hereafter , let them now know what they might easily have known before ; namely , that this accusation is false , a plain calumny , a ly . as i was bred up from my infancy under the care of my father , who was a non-conformist all his daies , & a painfull labourer in the vineyard of the lord ; so ever since i came to have any distinct knowledge of the things belonging to the worship of god , i have been fixed in judgment against that which i am calumniated withall ; which is notoriously known to all that have had any acquaintance with me ; what advantage this kind of proceeding is like to bring to his owne soule , or the cause which he mannageth , i leave to himselfe to judge . thus in generall ; to take a view of some particular passages in the appendix destined to this good worke ; the first section tries with much wit and rhetorick to improve the pretended alteration of judgment to the blemishing of my reputation ; affirming it to be from truth to error ; which as to my particular , so farre as it shall appeare i am cōcern'd , ( i am little moved with the bare affirmation of men , especially if induced to it by their interest . i desire him to let me know when and where , i may personally wait upon him , to be convinced of it : in the mean time so much for that section : in the second , he declares what my judgment was in that treatise about the distance between pastors and people , and of the extreams that some men on each hand run into : and i now tell him , that i am of the same mind still , so that that note hath little availed him . in the third he relates what i delivered , that a man not solemnly called to the office of the ministry by any outward call , might do as to the preaching of the gospell in a collapsed church-state . unto this he makes sundry objections ; that my discourse is darke , not cleare , and the like ; but remembring that his businesse was not to confute that treatise also , but to prove from it my inconstancie , and inconsistencie with my selfe : he sayes , i am changed from what i then delivered : this is denied , i am punctually of the same judgment still : but he proves the contrary by a double argument . 1. because i have renounced my ordination . 2. because i thinke now , that not only in a compleat church-state , but when no such thing can be charged , that gifts and consent of the people is enough to make a man a preacher in office ; both untrue and false in fact . i professe i am astonished , to thinke with what frame of spirit , what neglect of all rules of truth and love this businesse is mannaged . in the fourth section , he chargeth me to have delivered somewhat in that treatise about the personall indwelling of the holy ghost in believers , and my words to that purpose are quoted at large . what then ? am i changed in this also ? no , but that is an error in the judgment of all that be orthodox : but that is not the businesse in hand , but the alteration of my judgment ; wherfore he makes a kind of exposition upon my words in that treatise , to shew that i was not then of the mind that i have now delivered my selfe to be of , in my book of schisme ; but i could easily answer the weakenesse of his exceptions , and pretended expositions of my former assertions , and evidence my consistency in judgment with my selfe in this businesse ever since ; but this he saith is an error which he gathered out of my book of schisme ; and some body hath sent him word from oxford that i preached the same doctrine at st. maries . i wish his informer had never more deceived him ; it is most true i have done so , and since printed at large what then i delivered , with sundry additions thereunto ; and if this reverend author shall think good to examine what i have published on that account , ( not in the way in this treatise proceeded in , which in due time will be abhorred of himself & all good men , but with candor , and a spirit of christian ingenuity and meeknesse , ) i shall acknowledg my selfe obliged to him ; and in the mean time i desire him to be cautious of large expressions , concerning all the orthodox , to oppose that opinion , seeing evidences of the contrary lie at hand in great plenty : and let him learne from hence how little his insulting in his book on this account is to be valued . sec. the 5. he shews that i then proved the name of priests not to be proper , or to be ascribed to the ministers of the gospell ; but that now ( as is supposed in scorne ) i call the ministers of their particular congregations parochiall priests ; untrue ! in the description of the prelaticall church i shewed what they esteemed and called parish ministers amongst them . i never called the presbyterian ministers of particular congregations parochiall priests . love truth and peace ; these things ought not thus to be . sec. the 6. he labours to find some difference in the tendency of severall expressions in that treatise , which is not at all to the purpose in hand , nor true as will appeare to any that shall read the treatise it selfe . in the 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. sec : he takes here and there a sentence out of the treatise and examins it , interlacing his discourse with untrue reflections , surmizes and prognostications : and in particular p. the 238 & 239. but what doth all this availe him in reference to his designe in hand ? not only before , but even since his exceptions to the things then delivered , i am of the same mind that i was , without the least alteration . and in the viewing of what i had then asserted , i find nothing strange to me , but the sad discovery of what frame of spirit the charge proceeded from . sec. 12. doth the whole worke ; there i acknowledge my selfe to be of the presbyterian judgment , and not of the independent or congregationall . had this reverend author thought meet to have confined his charge to this one quotation , he had prevented much evill that spreads it selfe over the rest of his discourse , and yet have attained the utmost of what he can hope for , from the whole ; and hereof i have already given an account . but he will yet proceed , and sec. 13. informe his reader that , in that treatise i aver , that two things are required in a teacher , as to formall ministeriall teaching . 1. gifts from god , 2 authority frō the church : well ! what then ? i am of the same mind still : but now i cry down ordination by presbytery , what , & is not this a great alteration and signe of inconstancy . truly , sir , there is more need of humiliation in your selfe , then triumphing against me ; for the assertion is most untrue , and your charge altogether groundlesse ; which i desire you would be satisfied in , and not to be led any more by evill surmises , to wrong mee , and your owne soule . he addes sect. 14. two cautions , which in that treatise i give to private christians in the exercise of their gifts , and closeth the last of them with a juvenile epiphonema , divinely spoken , and like a true presbyterian : and yet there is not one word in either of these cautions that i do not still own and allow ; which confirmes the unhappinesse of the charge . of all that is substantiall in any thing that followes , i affirme the same , as to all that which is gone before . onely as to the liberty to be allowed unto them which meet in private , who cannot in conscience joyne in the celebration of publike ordinances , as they are performed amongst us , i confesse my selfe to be otherwise minded at present , than the words there quoted by this author do expresse . but this is nothing to the difference between presbytery and independency : and he that can glory , that in 14. yeares , he hath not altered or improved in his conception of some things , of no greater importance then that mentioned , shall not have me for his rivall . and this is the summe of m● . c. appendix ; the discourse whereof being carried on with such a temper of spirit as it is , and suited to the advantage aimed at , by so many evill surmises , false suggestions , and uncharitable reflections , i am perswaded the taking of that paines , will one day be no joy of heart unto him . chap. 3. a review of the chargers preface . his first chapter consists for the most part , in a repetition of my words , or so much of the discourse of my first chapter as he could wrest , by cutting off one , and another parcell of it from its coherence in the whole , with the interposure of glosses of his own , to serve him to make biting reflexions upōthem with whom he hath to deale . how unbecoming such a course of procedure is , for a person of his worth , gravity and profession , perhaps his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , have by this time convinced him . if men have a mind to perpetuate controversies unto an endlesse , fruitlesse reciprocation of words and cavils , if to provoke to easie and facile retorsions , if to heighten and aggravate differences beyond any hope of reconciliation , they may do wel to deale after this manner with the writings of one another . mr. c. knowes how easie it were to make his owne words , dresse him up in all those ornaments wherein he labours to make me appeare in the world , by such glosses , inversions , additions , and interpositions , as he is pleased to make use of ; but meliora speramus . some particulars that seem to be of any importance to our businesse in hand , may be remarked as we passe through it : pag. 1. he tels us the donatists had two principles : 1. that they were the onely church of christ in a corner of africk , and left no church in the world but their owne . 2. that none were truly baptized , or entred members of the church of christ , but by some minister of their party . these principles , he saies , are againe improved by men of another party : whom though yet he name not , yet it is evident whom he intends : and pag : 3. he requires my judgement of those principles . because i would not willingly be wanting in any thing that may tend to his satisfaction , though i have some reason to conjecture at my unhappinesse in respect of the event : i shall with all integrity give him my thoughts of the principles expresséd above . 1. then , if they were considered in reference to the donatists who owned them , i say they were wicked , corrupt , erroneous principles , tending to the disturbance of the communion of saints , and everting all the rules of love , that our lord jesus christ hath given to his disciples , and servants to observe : if he intend my judgment of them in reference to the churches of england , which he calls independent , i am sorry that he should thinke he hath any reason to make this inquiry . i know not that man in the world who is lesse concerned in obteining countenance to those principles then i am . let them who are so ready on all occasions or provocations to cast abroad the solemne formes of reproach , schismaticks , sectaries , hereticks , and the like , search their owne hearts , as to a conformity of spirit unto these principles . it is not what men say , but what men doe , that they shall be judged by . as the donatists were not the first who in story were charged with schisme , no more was their schisme confined to africk . the agreement of multitudes in any principles , makes it in its selfe not one whit better , and in effect worse . for my part i acknowledge the churches in england , scotland and france , helvetia , the netherlands , germany , greece , muscovia , &c. as far as i know of them , to be true churches ; such for ought i know may be in italy or spaine ; and what pretence or colour this reverend person hath to fix a contrary perswasion upon me , with so many odious imputations and reflections , of being one of the restorers of all lost churches , and the like , i professe i know not . these things will not be peace in the latter end ; shall the sword devour for ever ? i dare not suppose that he will aske why then do i separate from them ? he hath read my booke of schisme , wherein i have undeniably proved , that i have separated from none of them , and i am loath to say , though i feare before the close of my discourse i shall be compelled to it , that this reverend author hath answered a matter before he understood it , & confuted a book , whose maine and chiefe designe he did not once apprehend . the rest of this chapter is composed of reflections upon me from my owne words wrested at his pleasure , and added to according to the purpose in hand , and the taking for granted unto that end that they are in the right , we in the wrong , that their churches are true churches , and yet not esteemed so by me , that we have separated from those churches , with such like easie suppositions . he is troubled that i thought the mutuall chargings of each other with schisme , between the presbyterians , and independents was as to its heat abated and ready to vanish : wherein he hath invincibly compelled me to acknowledge my mistake ; and i assure him i am heartily sorry that i was mistaken , it will not be some joy one day that i was so . he seems to be offended with my notion of schisme , because if it be true , it will carry it almost out of the world , and blesse the churches with everlasting peace . he tells me that a learned dr. said my book was one great schisme , i hope that is but one drs. opinion ; because being non-sence it is not fit it should be entertained by many . in the processe of his discourse he culls out sundry passages deliverd by me in reference to the great divisions and differences , that are in the world among men professing the name of christ , and applies them to the difference between the presbyterians and independents , with many notable lashes in his way ; when they were very little in my thoughts , nor are the things spoken by me in any tolerable measure applicable to them . i suppose no rationall man will expect , that i should follow our reverend author in such waies and pathes as these ; it were easie in so doing to enter into an endlesse maze of words , to little purpose , and i have no mind to deale with him as he hath done by me , i like not the copy so well as to write by it ; so his first chapter is discussed , and forgiven . chap. 4. of the nature of schisme . the second chapter of my booke , whose examination this author undertakes in the second of his , containing the foundation of many inferences that ensue , and in particular of that description of schisme which he intends to oppose , it might have been expected , that he should not have culled out passages at his pleasure to descant upon , but either have transcribed the whole , or at least under one view have laid downe clearly what i proposed to confirmation , that the state of the controversie being rightly formed , all might understand , what we say , and whereof we do affirme : but he thought better of another way of procedure , which i am now bound to allow him in ; the reason whereof he knowes , and other men may conjecture . the first words he fixes on are the first of the chapter . the thing whereof we treat being a disorder in the instituted worship of god ; whereunto he replyes , it is an ill signe or omen , to stumble at the threshold in going out : these words are ambiguous , and may have a double sence , either that schisme is to be found in matter of instituted worship onely , or onely in the differences made in the time of celebrating instituted worship , and neither of these is yet true , or yet proved , and so a mere begging of the thing in question : for saith he , schisme may be in , and about other matter besides instituted worship . what measure i am to expect for the future from this entrance or beginning , is not hard to conjecture . the truth is , the reverend author understood me not at all , in what i affirmed : i say not , that schisme in the church is either about instituted worship , or onely in the time of worship , but that the thing i treat of , is a disorder in the instituted worship of god , and so it is , if the being , and constitution of any church be a part of god's worship : but when men are given to disputing , they think it incumbent on them to question every word and expression , that may possibly give them an advantage : but we must , now we are engaged , take all in good part as it comes . having nextly granted my request of standing to the sole determination of scripture in the controversie about the nature of schisme : he insists on the scripture use and notion of the word , according to what i had proposed : only in the metaphoricall sense of the word , as applyed unto civill and politicall bodies , he endeavours to make it appeare , that it doth not only denote the difference and division that falls among them in judgement , but their secession also into parties ; which though he proves not from any of the instances produced , yet because he may not trouble himselfe any further in the like kind of needlesse labour ; i do here informe him that if he suppose that i deny that to be a schisme , where there is a separation , and that because there is a separation , as though schisme were in its whole nature exclusive of all separation , and lost its being when separation ensued , he hath taken my mind as rightly , as he hath done the whole designe of my booke , and my sense in his first animadversions on this chapter . but yet because this is not proved , i shall desire him not to make use of it for the future as though it were so . the first place urged is that of john 7. 43. there was a schisme among the people : it is not pretended that here was any separation : acts 14. 4. the multitude of the city was divided , that is , in their judgment about the apostles and their doctrine : but not only so , for {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is spoken of them , which expresses their separation into parties : what weight this new criticisme is like to finde with others , i know not , for my part i know the words inforce not the thing aymed at ; and the utmost that seemes to be intended by that expression , is the siding of the multitude , some with one , some with another , whilst they were all in a publique commotion , nor doth the context require any more . the same is the case , acts 23. 7. where the sadduces and pharisees were divided about paul , whilst abiding in the place where the sanedrim sate , being divided into parties long before : and in the testimony cited in my margent for the use of the word in other authors , the author makes even that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to stand in opposition , only to {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} : nor was it any more . there was not among the people of rome , such a separation as to break up the corporation , or to divide the government , as is known from the story . the place of his owne producing , acts 19. 9. proves indeed that then and there , there was a separation , but as the author confesses in the margent , the word there used to expresse it hath no relation to {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . applied to ecclesiasticall things , the reverend author confesses with me , that the word is onely used in the first epistle to the corinthians 1 cor. 19. ch. 11. 18. and therefore that from thence the proper use and importance of it is to be learned . having laid downe the use of the word to denote difference of mind and judgment , with troubles ensuing thereupon , amongst men met in some one assembly about the compassing of a common end and designe . i proceed to the particular accommodation of it , to church-rents and schisme in that solitary instance given of it in the church of corinth : what saies our authour hereunto ? sayes he , pag. 26. this is a fore-stalling the readers judgement , by a meer begging of the thing in question : as it hath in part been proved from the scripture its selfe , where it is used for separation into parties , in the politicall use of the word ; why it may not so be used in the ecclesiasticall sense , i see no reason : but if this be the way of begging the question , i confesse i know not what course to take to prove what i intend . such words are used sometimes in warm disputes causelessely ; it were well they were placed where there is some pretence for them ; certainly they will not serve every turne . before i asserted the use of the word , i instanced in all the places where it is used , and evinced the sense of it from them ? if this be begging , it is not that lazy trade of begging , which some use ; but such as a man had as good professedly worke as follow . how well he hath disproved this sense of the word from scripture we have seen , i am not concerned in his seeing no reason why it may not be used in the ecclesiasticall sense , according to his conception , my enquiry was how it was used , not how it might be used in this reverend authors judgment . and this is the substance of all that is offered to overthrow that principle , which if it abide and stand , he must needs confesse all his following pains to be to no purpose . he sees no reason but it may be as he saies . after the declaration of some such suspitions of his , as we are now wonted unto , and which we cannot deny him the liberty of expressing , though i professe he do it unto my injurie , he saies , this is the way on the one hand to free all church-separation from schisme , and on the other to make all particular churches more or lesse inschismaticall : well , the first is denyed ; what is offer'd for the confirmation of the second ? saith he , what one congregation almost is there in the world , where there are not differences of judgment whence ensue many troubles about the compassing of one common end and designe ; i doubt whether his owne be free therefore . if my testimony may remove his scruple , i assure him through the grace of god , hitherto it hath been so , and i hope it is so with multitudes of other churches , those with whome it is otherwise , it will appear at last to be more or lesse blameable on the account of schisme . omitting my farther explication of what i had proposed , he passes unto p. 27. of my book , and thence transcribes these words : they had differences among themselves about unnecessary things , on these they engaged into disputes and sidings even in the solemne assemblies , probably much vaine janglings , alienation of affections , exasperations of spirit , with a neglect of due offices of love ensued hereupon , whereunto he subjoines , that the apostle charges this upon them is true , but was that all ? were there not divisions into parties as well as in judgments ? we shall consider that ere long , but i am sorry he hath waved this proper place of the consideration of this important assertion ; the truth is , hic pes fig●ndus , if he remove not this position , he labours , in vain for the future . i desire also to know what he intends by divisions into parties ; if he intend that some were of one party , some of another , in these divisions and differences , it is granted : there can-be no difference in judgment amongst men , but they must on that account be divided into parties : but if he intend thereby , that they divided into severall churches , assemblies , or congregations , any of them setting up new churches on a new account , or separating from the publick assemblies of the church whereof they were , and that their so doing is reproved by the apostle under the name of schisme ; then i tell him that this is that indeed whose proofe is incumbent on him . faile he herein , the whole foundation of my discourse continues firme and unshaken ; the truth is , i cannot meet with any one attempt to prove this , which alone was to be proved , if he intended that i should be any farther concerned in his discourse , then onely to find my selfe revil'd and abused . passing over what i produce to give light and evidence unto my assertion , he proceeds to the consideration of the observations and inferences i make upon it . p. 29. and onward . the first he insists upon is , that the thing mentioned is entirely in one church , amongst the members of one particular society : no mention is made of one church divided against another , or separated from another . to this he replies 1. that the church of corinth , was a collective church , made up of many congregations , and that i my selfe confesse they had solemne assemhlies , not one assembly onely ; that i beg the question by taking it for one single congregation . but i suppose one particular congregation may have more then one solemne assembly , even as many , as are the times , wherein they solemnly assemble . 2. i supposed , i had proved that it was only one congregation , that used to assemble in one place , that the apostle charged this crime upon ; and that this reverend author was pleased to overlook what was produced to that purpose , i am not to be blamed . 3. here is another discovery , that this reverend person never yet clearly understood the designe of my treatise , nor the principles i proceed upon . doth he think it is any thing to my present businesse , whither the church of corinth were such a church as presbyterians suppose it to be , or such a one as the independents affirme it ? whilst all ackowledge it to be one church , be that particular church of what kind it will ; if the schisme rebuked by the apostle consisted in division in it , and not in separation from it as such , i have evinced all that i intended by the observation under consideration . yet this he againe persues , and tells me , that there were more particular churches in and about corinth , as that at cenchrea , and that their differences were not confined to the verge of one church ( for there were differences abroad out of the church ) and saies , that at unawares i confess that they disputed from house to house , and in the publick assemblies : but i will assure the reverend author i was aware of what i said : is it possible he should suppose that by the verge of one church i intended the meeting place , and the assembly therein ? was it at all incumbent on me , to prove that they did not manage their differences in private , as well as in publick ? is it likely any such thing should be ? did i deny that they sided and made parties about their divisions and differences ? is it any thing to me , or to any thing i affirme , how , where , and when , they managed their disputes , and debated their controversies ? it is true there is mention of a church at cenchrea , but is there any mention that that church made any separation from the church of corinth ? or that the differences mention'd were between the members of these severall churches ? is it any thing to my present designe , though there were 20 particular congregations in corinth , supposing that on any consideration they were one church ? i assure you sr. i am more troubled with your not understanding the business and designe i mannage , then i am with all your reviling termes , you have laden me withall . once for all ; unlesse you prove that there was a separation frō that church of corinth ( be it of what constitution it may by any be supposed ) as such , into another church , and that this is reproved by the apostle under the name of schisme , you speak not one word to invalidate the principle by me laid downe : and for what he addes ; that for what i say there was no one church divided against another , or separated from another , is assumed , but not proved unlesse by a negative , which is invallid ; he wrests my words : i say not , there was no such thing , but that there was no mention of any such thing : for though it be as cleare as the noone day , that indeed there was no such thing , it sufficeth my purpose that there was no mention of any such thing , and therefore no such thing reproved under the name of schisme . with this one observation , i might well dismisse the whole ensuing treatise , seeing of how litle use it is like to prove , as to the businesse in hand , when the author of it indeed apprehends not the principle which he pretends to oppose ; i shall once more tell him , that he abide not in his mistake , that if he intend to evert the principle here by me insisted on , it must be by a demonstration that the schisme charged on the corinthians by paul consisted in the separation from , and relinquishment of that church , whereof they were members , and congregating into another not before erected or established ; for this is that which the reformed churches are charged to do by the romanists , in respect of their churches , and accused of schisme thereupon . but the differences which he thinks good to mannage and maintain , with , and against the independents do so possesse the thoughts of this reverend author , that what ever occurres to him , is immediately measured by the regard which it seems to bear , or may possibly bear thereunto , though that consideration were least of all regarded in its proposall . the next observation upon the former thesis that he takes into his examination , so far as he is pleased to transcribe it , is this ; here is no mention of any particular man or number of men separating from the assembly of the whole church ) or subducting of themselves from its power ; only they had groundlesse causlesse differences amongst themselves ; hereunto our author variously replyes and saies , 1. was this all ? were not separations made , if not from that church , yet in that church as well as divisions ? let the scripture determine , chap. 1. 11. ch. 5. 3. i am a disciple of paul said one , and i a disciple of apollo said another : in our language ; i am a member of such a ministers congregation , saies one , such a man for my money : and so a third , and hereupon they most probably separated themselves into such and such congregations ; ana is not separation the ordinary issue of such envyings ? i doubt not but that our reverend author supposeth that he hath here spoken to the purpose , and matter in hand ; and so perhaps may some others think also . i must crave leave to enter my dissent upon the account of the insuing reasons ; for , 1. it is not separation in the church by mens divisions and differences whilst they continue members of the same church , that i deny to be here charged under the name of scisme , but such a separation from the church , as was before described ; 2. the disputes amongst them about paul and apollos , the instruments of their conversion cannot possibly be supposed to relate unto ministers of distinct congregations among them . paul and apollos were not so , and could not be figures of them that were ; so that those expressions do not at all answer those which he is pleased to make parallell unto them . 3. grant all this , yet this proves nothing to the cause in hand , men may crye up some the minister of one congregation , some of another , and yet neither of them separate from the one , or other , or the congregations themselves fall into any separation , wherefore ( 4 ) he saies , probably they separated into such and such congregations ; but this is most improbable ; for first , there is no mention at all of those many congregations that are supposed , but rather the contrary , as i have declared , is expressly asserted : 2. there is no such thing mentioned or intimated , nor , 3. are they in the least rebuked for any such thing , though the forementioned differences which are a lesse evill are reproved again , and againe , under the name of schisme : so that this most improbable improbability or rather vaine conjecture , is a very mean refuge and retreat from the evidence of expresse scripture , which in this place is alone inquired after-doth indeed the reverend author think , will he pretend so to do , that the holy apostle should so expresly , weightily , and earnestly , reprove their dissentions in the church , whereof they were members , and yet not speak one word , or give the least intimation of their separation from the church ; had there indeed been any such thing ? i dare leave this to the conscience of the most partially addicted person under heaven , to the authors cause , who hath any conscience at all ; nor dare i dwell longer on the confutation of this fiction , though it be upon the matter the whole of what i am to contend withall . but he farther informes us that ▪ there was a separation to parties in the church of corinth , at least as to one ordinance of the lords supper , as appears c. 11. v. 18 , 21 , 22 , 23. and this was part of their schisme . v. 16. and not long after they separated into other churches , sleighting and undervaluing the first ministers and churches , as nothing or lesse pure then their owne , which we see practised sufficiently at this day . a. were not this the head & seate of the first part of the controversie insisted on , i should not be able to prevaile with my selfe , to cast away precious time in the consideration of such things as these , being tendered as suitable to the businesse in hand ; it is acknowledged that there were differences amongst them , and disorders in the administration of the lords supper , that therein they used respect of persons , as the place quoted in the margin by our author , jam. 2. 1 , 2 , 3. manifests that they were ready to do in other places ; the disorder the apostle blames in the administration of the ordinances was , when they came together in the church , v. 18. when they came together in one place ; v. 20. there they tarried not one for another as they ought v. 33. but coming unprepared , some having eaten before , some being hungry v. 21. all things were mannaged with great confusion amongst them v. 22. and if this prove not , that the schisme they were charged withall consisted in a separation from that church with which they came together in one place , we are hopelesse of any farther evidence to be tendred to that purpose . that there were disorders amongst them in the celebration of the lords supper is certain ; that they separated into severall congregations on that account , or one from another , or any from all , is not in the least intimation signified ; but the plaine contrary shines in the whole state of things , as there represented : had that been done , and had so to do , been such an evill , as is pleaded , ( as causlesly to do it is no small evill ) it had not passed unreproved from him , who was resolved in the things of god , not to spare them . 2 that they afterwards fell into the separation aimed at to be asserted our reverend author affirmes , that so he may make way for a reflection on the things of his present disquietment ; but as we are not as yet concerning our selves , in what they did afterwards ; so when we are , we shall expect somewhat more then bare affirmations for the proofe of it : being more then ordinarily confident , that he is not able from the scripture , or any other story of credit , to give the least countenance to what he here affirmes . but now as if the matter were well discharged , when there hath not one word been spoken ; that in the least reaches the case in hand ; he saith 3. by way of supposition that there was but one single congregation at corinth ; yet ( said he ) the apostle dehorts the brethren from schisme , and writes to more then the church of corinth , ch. 1. v. 2. a. i have told him before , that though i am full well resolved that there was but one single congregation at corinth in those daies , yet i am not at all convinced as to the proposition under confirmatiō to assert any such thing , but will suppose the church to be of what kind my author pleaseth , whilst he will acknowledge it to be the particular church of corinth . i confesse the apostle dehorts the brethren from schisme , even others as well as those at corinth , so far as the church of god in all places , and ages , are concerned in his instructions and dehortations , when they fall under the case stated , parallel with that which is the ground of his dealing with them at corinth ; but what that schisme was from which he dehorts them , he declares only in the instance of the church of corinth : and thence is the measure of it to be taken , in reference to all dehorted from it . unto the 3d. observation added by me , he makes no returne , but only laies down some exceptions to the exemplification given of the whole matter , in another schisme that fell out in that church about 40 yeares after the composure of this , which was the occasion of that excellent epistle unto them from the church of rome , called the epistle of clement ; disswading them from persisting in that strife and contention , and pressing them to unity and agreement among themselves : some things our reverend author offers as to this instance , but so , as that i cannot but suppose , that he consulted not the epistle on this particular occasion ; and therefore now i desire him that he would do so , and i am perswaded he will not a second time give countenance to any such apprehension of the then state of the church , as though there were any separation made from it , by any of the members thereof , doeing or suffering the injury there complained of , about which those differences and contentions arose . i shall not need to go over againe the severalls of that epistle ; one word mentioned by my selfe , namely {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} he insists on , and informes us , that it implies a separation into other assemblies ; which he saies i waved to understand . i confesse i did so in this place , and so would he also , if he had once consulted it . the speech of the church of rome is there to the church of corinth , in reference to the elders whom they had deposed . the whole sentence is ; {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . and the words immediately going before are ; {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} : then follows that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; our author i suppose , understands greek , and so i shall spare my pains of transcribing mr. youngs latin translation ; or adding one in english of mine own ; and if he be pleased to read these words , i think we shall have no more of his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . if a faire opportunity call me forth to the farther mannagement of this controversy , i shall not doubt but from that epistle , and some other pieces of undoubted antiquity , as the epistle of the church of vienna and lyons , of smyrna , with some publick records of those daies , as yet preserved , worthy all of them to be written in letters of gold , to evince that state of the churches of christ in those daies , as will give abundant light to the principles i proceed upon in this whole businesse . and thus have i briefly vindicated what was proposed as the precise scripture notion of schisme , against which indeed not any one objection hath beenraised , that speaks directly to the thing in hand . our reverend author being full of warme affections against the independents , and exercised greatly in disputing the common principles which either they hold , or are supposed so to do ; measures every thing that is spoken , by his apprehension of those differences , wherein as he thinks their concernment doth lie : had it not bin for some such prejudice , ( for i am unwilling to ascribe it to more blameable principles ) it would have been almost impossible that he should have once imagined that he had made the least attempt towards the eversion of what i had asserted ; much lesse that he had made good the title of his book ▪ though he scarce forgets it , or any thing concerning it but its proofe , in any one whole leafe of his treatise . it remaines then that the nature and notion of schisme as revealed and described in the scripture , was rightly fixed in = my former discourse ; and i must assure this reverend author , that i am not afrighted from the embraceing and maintaining of it , with those scare crowes of new light ; singularity , and the like , which he is pleased frequently to set up to that purpose . the discourse that ensues in our author concerning a parity of reason , to prove that if that be schisme , then much more is separation so , shall afterwards if need be , be considered , when i proceed to shew what yet farther may be granted without the least prejudice of truth , though none can necessitate me to recede from the precise notion of the name and thing delivered in the scripture . i confess i cannot but marvell , that any man undertaking the examination of that treatise , and expressing so much indignation at the thoughts of my discourse , that lyeth in this businesse , should so sleightly passe over that , whereon he knew that i laid the great weight of the whole . hath he so much as indeavourd to prove , that that place to the corinthians , is not the only place wherein there is in the scripture any mention of schisme in an ecclesiasticall sense ; or that the church of corinth was not a particular church : is any thing of importance offerd to impaire the assertion that the evill reproved was within the verge of that church , and without separation from it ? and do i need any more to make good to the utmost that which i have asserted ; but of these things afterwards . in all that followes to the end of this chapter , i meet with nothing of importance that deserves farther notice ; that which is spoken is for the most part built upon mistakes ; as that when i speak of a member or the members of one particular church , i intend onely one single congregation exclusively to any other acceptation of that expression , in reference to the apprehension of others : that i denie the reformed churches to be true churches , because i denie the church of rome to be so ; and denie the institution of a nationall church , which yet our author pleads not for . he would have it for granted that because schisme consists in a difference among church members , therefore he that raises such a difference , whither he be a member of that church wherein the difference is raised , or of any other or no ( suppose he be a mahumetan or a jew ) is a schismatick ; pleads for the old definition of schisme , as suitable to the scripture , after the whole foundation of it is taken away : wrests many of my expressions ! as that in particular , in not making the matter of schisme to be things relating to the worship of god , to needlesse discourses about doctrine and discipline , not apprehending what i intended by that expression of the worship of god ; and i suppose it not advisable to follow him in such extravagancies . the usuall aggravations of schisme he thought good to reinforce , whither he hoped that i would dispute with him about them , i cannot tell . i shall now assure him that i will not , though if i may have his good leave to say so , i lay much more weight on those insisted on by my selfe , wherein i am encouraged , by his approbation of them . chap. 5. the third chapter of my treatise consisting in the preventing and removing such objections as the precedent discourse might seem lyable and obnoxious unto , is proposed to examination , by our reverend author , in the third chap. of his booke : and the objections mentioned undertaken to be managed by him , with what successe , some few considerations will evince . the first objection by me proposed was taken from the common apprehension of the nature of schisme , and the issue of stateing it as by me layd down ; namely hence it would follow that the separation of any man or men from a true church , or of one church from others is not schisme . but now waving for the present the more large consideration of the name & thing , which yet in the processe of my discourse i do condescend upon , according to the principle layd down ; i say that in the precise signification of the word , and description of the thing as given by the holy ghost this is true ; no such separation is in the scripture so called , or so accounted , whither it may not in a large sence be esteemed as such , i do not dispute , yea i afterwards grant it so farre , as to make that concession the bottome and foundation of my whole plea , for the vindication of the reformed churches from that crime . our reverend author reinforces the objection by sundry instances ; as , 1. that he hath disproved that sence or precise signisication of the word in scripture , how well let the reader judge . 2. that supposing that to be the onely sence mentioned in that case of the corinthians , yet may another sence be intimated in scripture and deduced by regular and rationall consequence : perhaps this will not be so easy an undertaking , this being the onely place where the name is mentioned , or thing spoken of in an ecclesiasticall sence : but when any proofe is tendred of what is here affirmed , we shall attend unto it . it is said indeed that if separation in judgment in a church be a schisme , much more to separate from a church ! but our question is about the precise notion of the word in scripture , and consequences from thence , not about consequents from the nature of things , concerning which if our author had been pleased to have staid a while , he would have found me granting as much as he could well desire . 3. 1 john 2. 19. is sacrificed {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} and interpreted of schisme . where ( to make one venture in imitation of our author ) all orthodox interpreters , and writers of controversies expound it of apostacy ; neither will the context or arguing of the apostle admit of another exposition ; mens wresting of scripture to give countenance to inveterate errours is one of their worst concomitants ; so then that seperation from churches is oftentimes evill is readily granted : of what nature that evill is , with what are the aggravations of it , a judgment is to be made , from the pleas and pretences that its circumstances afford : so farr as it proceeds from such dissensions as before were mentioned , so far it proceeds from schisme , but in its own nature absolutely considered it is not so . to render my former assertions the more unquestionably evident , i consider the severall accounts given of mens blameable departures ' from any church , or churches mentioned in scripture , and manifest that none of them come under the head of schisme . apostasy , irregularly of walking , and professed sensuality , are the heads , whereunto all blameable departures from the churches in the scripture are referred . that there are other accounts of this crime , our author doth not assert ; he onely saies , that all , or some of the places i produce , as instances of a blameable separation from a church , do mind the nature of schisme as precedaneous to the separation ; what ere the matter is i do not find him speaking ▪ so faintly and with so much caution through his whole discourse as in this place : all , or some do it ; they mind the nature of schisme ; they mind it as precedaneous to the separation , so the summe of what he aims at in contesting about the exposition of those places of scripture is this ; some of them do mind ( i know not how ) the nature of schisme , which he never once named as precedaneous to separation ; therefore the precise notion of schisme in the scripture doth not denote differences and divisions in a church only ; quod erat demonstrandum : that i should spend time in debating a consideration so remote from the state of the controversie in hand , i am sure will not be expected by such as understand it . pag. 77. of my treatise i affirm that for a man to withdraw or withold himselfe from the communion externall and visible of any church or churches , on that pretention or plea ( be it true or otherwise ) that the worship , doctrine , or discipline instituted by christ is corrupted among them , with which corruption he dares not defile himselfe , is no where in the scripture called schisme , nor is that case particularly exemplified , or expressely supposed , whereby a judgment may be made of the fact at large , but we are left , upon the whole matter , to the guidance of such generall rules and principles as are given us for that end and purpose : such is my meanesse of apprehension that i could not understand , but that either this assertion must be subscribed unto , as of irrefragable verity , or else that instances to the contrary must have been given out of the scripture ; for on that hinge alone doth this present controversie ( and that by consent ) turne it selfe : but our reverend author thinks good to take another course ( for which his reasons may easily be conjectured ) and excepts against the assertion it selfe in generall : first , as ambiguous and fallacious , and then also intimates that he will scan the words in perticular ; mihi jussa capessere , &c. 1. he saies , that i tell not whither a man may separate where there is corruption in some one of these onely or in all of them , nor 2. how farre some or all of these must be corrupted before we separate . a. this is no small vanity under the sunne , that men will not onely measure themselves by themselves , but others also by their own measure : our author is still with his finger in the sore , and therefore supposes that others must needs take the same course . is there any thing in my assertion whither a man may separate from any church or no ? any thing upon what corruption he may lawfully so do ? any thing of stating the difference betwixt the presbiterians and independants ? do i at all fix it on this fo●t of account when i come so to doe ? i humbly beg of this author , that if i have so obscurely and intricately delivered my selfe and meaning , that he cannot come to the understanding of my designe , nor import of my expressions , that he would favour me with a command to explain my selfe , before he engage into a publicke refutation of what he doth not so clearly apprehend ! alas , i do not in this place in the least intend to justify any separation , nor to shew what pleas are sufficient to justify a separation , nor what corruption in the church separated from , is necessary thereunto , nor at all regard the controversie his eye is allwaies on ; but onely declare what is not comprised in the precise scripture notion of schisme , as also how a judgment is to be made of that which is so by me excluded , whither it be good or evill . would he have been pleased to have spoken to the businesse in hand , or any thing to the present purpose , it must not have been by an inquiry into the grounds & reasons of separation , how farre it may be justified by the plea mentioned , or how farre not ▪ when that plea is to be allowed , and when rejected ; but this only was incumbent on him to prove ! namely , that such a separation upon that plea , or the like , is called schisme in the scripture , and as such a thing condemned . what my concernment is in the ensuing observations ; that the judaicall church was as corrupt as ours , that if a bare plea true or false will serve to justifie men , all separatists may be justified , he himselfe will easily perceive : but however , i cannot but tell him by the way , that he who will dogmatize , in this controversy from the judaicall church , and the course of proceedings amongw them , to the direction and limitation of duty , as to the churches of the gospel , considering the vast & important differences between t he constitutions of the one & the other , with the infallible obligation to certain principles , on the account of the typicall institution in that primitive church , when there neither was nor could be any more in the world , must expect to bring other arguments to compasse his designe , then the analogie pretended . for the justification of separatists of the reason , if it will ensue , upon the examination for separation , and the circumstances of the seperating , whereunto i referre them , let it follow , and let who will complain ; but to fill up the measure of the mistake he is ingaged in , he tells us pag. 75. that this is the pinch of the question , whither a man or a company of men may separate from a true church , upon a plea of corruptiō in it , true or false , & set up another church , as to ordinances , renouncing that church to be a true church . this ( saith he ) is plainely our case at present , with the doctor and his associates ; truly i do not know that ever i was necessitated to a more sad and fruitlesse imployment in this kind of labour and travaile . is that the question in present agitation ? is any thing , word , title , or iota spoken to it ? is it my present businesse to state the difference between the presbyterians and independents ? do i anywhere do it upon this account ? do i not every where positively deny that there is any such separation made ? nay can common honesty allow such a state of a question , if that were the businesse in hand to be put upon me ? are their ordinances and churches so denied by me as is pretended ? what i have often said , must again be repeated , the reverend author hath his eye so fixed on the difference between the presbyterians and the independants , that he is at every turn lead out of the way into such mistakes , as it was not possible he should otherwise be overtaken withall ; this is perhaps mentis gratissimus error : but i hope it would be no death to him to be delivered from it . when i laid downe the principles which it was his good will to oppose , i had many things under consideration , as to the settling of conscience in respect of manifold oppositions ; and to tell him the truth , least valued that which he is pleased to mannage , and to look upon as my sole intendment ; if it be not possible to deliver him from this strong imagination , that carries the images and species of independency alwaies before his eies , we shall scarce speak ad idem in this whole discourse . i desire then that he would take notice , that as the state of the controversy he proposes , doth no more relate to that which peculiarly is pretended to ly under his consideration , then any other thing whatever that he might have mentioned ; so when the peculiar difference between him and the independents comes to be mannaged , scarce any one terme of his state will be allowed . exceptions are in the next place attempted to be put in to my assertion , that there is no example in the scripture of any one churches departure from the union which they ought to hold with others , unlesse it be in some of their departures from the common faith , which is not schisme ; much with the same successe as formerly : let him produce one instance , and , en herbam . i grant the roman church on a supposition that it is a church ( which yet i utterly deny ) to be a schismaticall church upon the account of the intestine divisions of all sorts ; or what other accounts other men urge them with the same guilt i suppose he knows by this , that i am not concern'd . having finished this exploit , because i had said , if i were unwilling , i did not understand how i might be compelled to carry on the notion of schisme any farther ; he tells me , though i be unwilling , he doubts not but to be able to compell me : but who told him i was unwilling so to do ? do i not immediately without any compulsion very freely fall upon the worke ? did i say i was unwilling ? certainly it ought not to be thus ; of his abilities in other things i do not doubt ; in this discourse he is pleased to exercise more of something else . there is but one passage more that needs to be remarked , and so this chapter also is dismissed ; he puts in a caveat that i limit not schisme to the worship of god , upon these words of mine ; the consideration of what sort of union in reference to the worship of god ( where he inserts in the repetition ; marke that ) is instituted by jesus christ , is the foundation of what i have further to offer ; whereto he subjoined the designe of this in that he may have a fair retreat , when he is charged with breach of union in other respects , and so with schisme ; to escape by this evasion : this breach of union is not in reference to the worship of god in one assembly met to that end . i wish we had once an end of these mistakes , and false uncharitable surmises . by the worship of god i intend the whole compasse of institutions , and their tendency thereunto . and i know that i speak properly enough in so doing ; i have no such designe as i am charged withall , nor do i need it ; i walke not in feare of this authors forces , that i should be providing before hand to secure my retreat . i have passed the bounds of the precise notion of schisme before insisted on , and yet doubt not but god assisting to make good my ground . if he judge i cannot , let him command my personall attendance on him at any time , to be driven from it by him ; let him by any meanes prove against me at any time a breach of any union instituted by jesus christ , and i will promise him , that with all speed i will retreate from that state , or thing , whereby i have so done . i must professe to this reverend author , that i like not the cause he mannages one whit the better for the way whereby he mannageth it . we had need watch and pray that we be not lead into temptation : seeing we are in some measure not ignorant of the devices of sathan . now that he may see this door of escape shut up , that so he may not need to trouble himselfe any more in taking care , least i escape that way , when he intends to fall upon me with those blowes , which as yet i have not felt , i shall shut it fast my selfe , beyond all possibility of my opening againe : i here then declare unto him , that when ever he shall prove that i have broken any union of the institution of jesus christ , of what sort soever , i will not in excuse of my selfe , insist on the plea mentioned , but will submit to the discipline , which shall be thought meet by him to be exercised towards any one offending in that kind : yet truely on this engagement i would willingly contract with him , that in his next reply he should not deale with me , as he hath done in this , neither as to my person , nor as to the differences between us . chap. 6. having declared and vindicated the scripture proper notion of schisme , and thence discovered the nature of it with all its aggravations , with the mistakes that men have run into , who have suited their apprehensions concer●ing it , unto what was their interests to have it thought to be , and opened a way thereby for the furtherance of peace among professors of the gospell of jesus christ , for the further security of the consciences of men unjustly accused and charged with the guilt of this evill , i proceeded to the consideration of it in the usuall common acceptation of the word , and things , that so i might obviate what ever with any tollerable pretence is insisted on , as deduced by a parity of reason from what is delivered in the scripture , in reference to the charge managed by some or other against all sorts of protestants . hereupon i grant , that it may be looked on in generall as {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a branch of union , so that it be granted also , that that union be an union of the institution of jesus christ . to find out then the nature of schisme under the consideration of the condescention made : and to discover wherein the guilt of it doth consist : it is necessary that we find out what that union is , and wherein it doth consist , whereof it is the brcadth and interruption , or is supposed so to be over and above the breach above mentioned and described . now this union being the union of the church , the severall acceptations of the church in scripture are to be investigated , that the union inquired after , may be made known . the church in scripture being taken either for the church catholick or the whole number of elect beleivers in the world ( for we lay aside the consideration of that part of this great family of god , which is already in heaven , from this distinction ) or else for the generall visible body of those who professe the gospell of christ , or for a particular society joining together in the celebration of the ordinances of the new testament , instituted by christ to be so celebrated by thē ; the union of it , with the breach of that union , in these severall respects with the application of the whole , to the businesse under consideration , was to be enquired after : which also was performed . i began with the consideration of the catholick invisible church of christ , and the union thereof ; having declared the rise of this distinction , and the necessity of it from the nature of the things themselves ; as to the matter of this church , or the church of christ as here militant on earth , i affirme , and evince it to be , all and only elect believers ; the union of this church consists in the inhabitation of the same spirit in all the members of it , uniting them to the head christ jesus , and therein to one another . the breach of this union , i manifested to consist in the losse of that spirit , with all the peculiar consequences and effects of him in the hearts of them , in whom he dwels ; this i manifest according to our principles to be impossible , and upon a supposition of it , how remote it would be from schisme , under any notion or acceptation of the word ; so closing that discourse with a charge on the romanists of their distance from an interest in this church of jesus christ . our reverend author professes that he hath but little to say to these things , some exceptions he puts in unto some expressions used in the explication of my sense , in this particular : that which he chiefely insists upon , is the accommodation of that promise matth. 16. 28. upon this rock will i build my church , to the church in this sense , which he concludes to belong to the visible church of professors ; now as i am not at all concerned , as to the truth of what i am in confirmation of , to which of these it be applyed , so i am far from being alone in that application of it to the catholick church which i insist upon ; all our divines that from hence prove , the perseverance of all individuall believers , as all do that i have met withall , who write on that subject , are of the same mind with me . moreover the church is built on this rock in its individuals ; or i know not how it is so built . the building on christ , doth not denote a meer relation of a generall body to his truth , that it shall allwaies have an existence , but the union of the individualls with him in their being built on him , to whom the promise is made . i acknowledg it for as unquestionable a truth as any we believe , that christ hath had , and ever shall have to the end of the world , a visible number of those that professe his name , and subjection to his kingdome ; because of the necessary consequence of profession upon believing ; but that , that truth is intended in this promise any farther but in respect of this consequence , i am not convinced . and i would be loath to say that this promise is not made to every particular believer , and only unto them ; being willing to vindicate to the saints of god , all those grounds of consolation which he is so willing they should be made partakers of . as to the union of this church and the breach of it , our reverend author , hath a little to say : because there may be some decaies in true grace in the members of this church : he affirms that in a sort there may be said to be a breach in this union , and so consequently a schisme in this body . he seemed formerly to be affraid lest all schisme should be thrust out of the world ; if he can retrive it on the account of any true believers failing in grace , or falling for a season , i suppose he needs not fear the losse of it , whilst this world continues : but it is fit , wise , and learned men should take the liberty of calling things by what names they please ; so they will be pleasd withall , not to impose their conceptions and use of tearms on them who are not able to understand the reasons of them . it is true there may be a schisme among the members of this church , but not as members of this church , nor with reference to the union thereof . it is granted that schisme is the breach of union ; but not of every union much lesse not a breach of that , which , if there were a breach of , it were not schisme : however by the way i am bold to tell this reverend author , that this doctrine of his , concerning schisme in the catholick invisible church , by the failings in grace in any of the mēbers of it for a season , is a new notion , which as he cannot justify to us , because it is false , so , i wonder how he will justify it to himselfe , because it is new . and what hath been obtained by the author against my principles in this chapter . i cannot perceive . the nature of the church in the state considered , is not opposed ; the union asserted not disproved ; the breach of that union , is denyed ( as i suppose ) no lesse by him then my selfe ; that the instances that sōe saints , as mēbers of this church may sometimes fail in grace more or lesse for some season ; & that the members of this church , though not as members of this church , yet on other considerations may be guilty of schisme , concern not the businesse under debate , himselfe i hope is satisfied . chap. 7. our progresse in the next place is to the consideration of the catholick church visible . who are the members of this church , whereof it is constituted , what is required to make them so , on what account men visibly professing the gospell may be esteemed justly devested of the priviledge of being members of this church , with sundry respects of the church in that sense , are in my treatise discussed . the union of this church that is proper and peculiar unto it as such , i declared to be the profession of the saving doctrine of the gospell , not everted by any of the miscarriages , errors , or oppositions to it , that are there recounted . the breach of this union i manifest to consist in apostasy , from the profession of the faith , and so to be no schisme , upon whomsoever the guilt of it doth fall ; pleading the immunity of the protestants as such from the guilt of the breach of this union , and charging it upon the romanists , in all the waies whereby it may be broken , an issue is put to that discourse . what course our reverend author takes in the examination of this chapter , & the severalls of it , whereon the strength of the controversie dothly ; is now to be consideed ; doth he deny this church to be a collection of all that are duly called christians in respect of their profession ? to be that great multitude who throughout the world , professe the doctrine of the gospell , and subjection to jesus christ ? doth he denie the union of this church , or that whereby that great multitude are incorporated into one body as visible and professing , to be the profession of the saving doctrines of the gospell , & of subjection to jesus christ according to them ? doth he denie the dissolution of this union as to the interest of any member by it in the body , to be by apostasy from the profession of the gospell ? doth he charge that apostasy upon those whom he calls independents as such , or if he should , could he tolerably defend his charge ? doth he prove that the breach of this union , is under that formality properly schisme ? nothing lesse ! as far as i can gather : might not then the trouble of this chapter have been spared ? or shall i be necessitated to defend every expression in my book , though nothing at all to the main businesse under debate , or else independency must goe for a great schisme . i confesse this is somewhat an hard law , and such as i cannot proceed in obedience unto it , without acknowledging his ability to compell me to go on further then i am willing ; yet i do it with this ingagement , that i will so looke to my selfe , that he shall never have that power over me any more ; nor will i upon any compulsion of useless needlesse cavils & exceptions do so again ▪ so that in his reply he now knowes how to order his affairs so , as to be freed from the trouble of a rejoinder . his first attempt in this chapter , is upon a short discourse of mine , in my processe , which i professe not to be needfull to the purpose in hand , relating to some later disputes about the nature of this church , wherein some had affirmed it to be a genus to particular churches , which are so many distinct species of it , and others that it was a totum made up of particular churches as its parts , both which in some sense i denyed ; partly out of a desire to keep off all debates about the things of god , frō being enwrapped and agitated in and under philosophicall notions and faigned tearms of art , which hath exceedingly multiplied controversies in the world and rendred them endlesse , and doth more or lesse streighten or oppose every truth that is so dealt withall : partly because i evidently saw men deducing false consequents from the supposition of such notions of this church : for the first way , our reverend author lets it passe , onely with a remarke upon my dissenting from mr hooker of new england , which he could not but note by the way , although he approves what i affirme . a worthy note ! as though all the brethren of the presbyterian way , were agreed among themselves in all things of the like importance ; or that i were in my judgment enthralled to any man or men , so that it should deserve a note when i dissent from them . truly i blesse god , i am utterly unacquainted with any such frame of spirit , or bondage of mind , as must be supposed to be in them whose dissent from other men is a matter of such observation . one is my master , to whom alone my heart and judgement are in subjection : for the latter i do not say absolutely that particular churches are not the parts of the catholique visible , in any sense , but that they are not so parts of it as such , so that it should be constituted & made up by thē , & of thē , for the order and purpose of an instituted church , for the celebration of the worship of god , and institutions of christ , according to the gospell ; which when our author proves that it is : i shall acknowledge my selfe obliged to him . he saies indeed , that it was once possible that all the members of the catholique church , should meet together , to heare one sermon , &c. but he is to prove , that they were bound to do so , as that catholique church , and not that it was possible for all the members of it under any other notion , or consideration so to convene . but he saies , they are bound to do so still , but that the multitude makes it impossible : credat apella : that christ hath bound his church to that which himselfe makes impossible . neither are they so bound : they are bound , by his own acknowledgement , to be members of particular churches : & in that capacity , are they bound so to convene ; those churches being by the will of god , appointed for the seat of ordinances . and so what he adds in the next place of particular churches , being bound according to the institution of christ to assemble for the celebration of ordinances , is absolutely destructive of the former figment . but he would know a reason why 40 or more , that are not members of one particular church , but only of the catholick , meeting together , may not join together in all ordinances , as well as they may meet to heare the word preached , and often doe ; to which i answer ; that it is because jesus christ hath appointed particular churches , and there is more required to them , then the occasionall meeting of some , any , or all , if possible of the members of the catholick church as such , will afford . his reflexions upon my selfe , added in that place , are now growne so common , that they deserve not any notice . in his ensuing discourse , if i may take leave to speak freely to our reverend author , he wrangles about termes and expressions , adding to , and altering those by me used in this businesse at his pleasure , to make a talke to no purpose . the summe of what he pretends to oppose is , that this universall church , or the universality of professors considered as such , neither formally as members of the church catholick , mistically elect , nor as any members of any particular church , have not as such , any church forme of the institution of christ , by virtue whereof , they should make up one instituted church , for the end and purpose of the celebration of the ordinances of the gospell therein . if he suppose he can prove the contrary , let him cease from cavilling at words , and by expressions , which is a facile taske for any man to engage in , and no way usefull , but to make controversies endlesse ; and answer my reasons against it , which here he passeth over , and produce his testimonies and arguments for that purpose . this triviall ventilation of particular passages cut off from their influence into the whole , is not worth a nut-shell , but is a businesse fit for them who have nothing else to employ themselves about . coming to consider the union that i assigne to this church , after whose breach an enquiry is to be made , which is the maine , and only thing of his concernment , as to the aime he hath proposed to himselfe , he passeth it over very slightly : taking no notice at all of my whole discourse , frō p. 116. top . 133. of my treatise ; wherein i disprove the pretensions of other things to be the union , or bond of union to this church ; he fixes a very little while on what i assigne to be that union . this i say is profession of the faith of the gospell , and subjection to jesus christ according to it : to which he adds , that they are bound to more then this , viz : to the exercise of the same specificall ordinances , as also to love one another , to subjection to the same discipline , and where it is possible to the exercise of the same numericall worship . all this was expresly affirm'd by me before ; it is all virtually contained in their profession , so far as the things mentioned are revealed in the gospell : only as to the celebrating of the same numericall ordinances , i cannot grant that they are obliged hereunto as formally considered members of that church , nor shall , untill our reverend author shall think meet to prove , that particular congregations are not the institutions of jesus christ . but hereupon he affirms , that that is a strange assertion used by me pa : 117. namely , that if there be not an institution of joining in the same numericall ordinances , the union of this church is not really a church union . this is no more but what was declared before , nor more then what i urged the testimony of a learned presbyterian for : no more but this , that the universality of christians throughout the world , are not under such an institution , as that , to assemble together for the celebration of the same numericall ordinances ; the pretence of any such institution being supplied by christ's acknowledged institutiō of particular churches for that purpose . what i have offered in my treatise , as evidence that protestants are not guilty of the breach of this union , and that where any are , their crime is not schisme but apostacy , either as to profession or conversation , i leave to the judgment of all candid , sober , and ingenious readers ; for such as love strife , and debates , and disputes , whereof the world is full , i would crave of them , that if they must chuse me for their adversary , they would allow me to answer in person , vivâ voce , to prevent this tedious trouble of writing , which for the most part is fruitlesse and needlesse . some exceptions our author laies in , against the properties of the profession by me required , as necessary to the preservation of this union : as to the first of professing all necessary saving truths of the gospell , he excepts that the apostles were ignorant of many necessary truths of the gospell for a season , and some had never heard of the holy ghost . act. 29. and yet they kept the union of the catholick church . and yet our author before he closeth this chapter , will charge the breach of this union on some , whose errors cannot well be apprehended to lie in the deniall of any necessary truth of the gospell , that is , indispensably necessary to salvation . as to his instance of the apostles , he knows it is one thing not to know clearly and distinctly for some season , some truths in hypothesi , and another to deny them being sufficiently and clearly revealed in thesi ; and for those in the acts , it is probable they were ignorant of the dispensations of the holy ghost , with his marvelous effects under the gospell , rather then of the person of the holy ghost : for even in respect of the former it is absolutely said that the holy ghost was not yet , because jesus was not yet glorified . i shall not pursue his other exceptions , being sorry that his judgment leads him to make them ; that which alone beares any aspect to the business in hand , he insists on pag. 99. in these words . i have intimated and partly proved , that there may be a breach of union , with respect to the catholick church upon other considerations ( namely besides the renuntiation of the profession of the gospell : ) as first , there is a bond that obliges every member of this church , to joine together in exercising the same ordinances of worship : when then any man shall refuse to joine with others , or refuse others to joine with him , here is a breach of love and union among the members of the catholick church ; and in the particular churches as parts of the catholick . the reader must pardon me for producing and insisting on these things , seeing i do it with this profession , that i can fix on nothing else so much to the purpose in hand : and yet how little these are so , cannot but be evident upon a sleight view to the meanest capacities . for 1. he tells us there may be a breach of union with respect to the catholick church , on other considerations : not that there may be a breach of the uniō of the catholick church . 2. that there is a bond binding men to the exercise of ordinances ; so there is binding man to all holinesse ; and yet he denies the vilest profane persons to break that bond or this union . 3. that there may be a breach of union among the members of the church : but who knows it not , that knows all members of particular churches , are also members of this church generall . our enquiry is after the union of the catholick-church visible , what it is , how broken , and what the crime or evill is , whereby it is broken , what obligations lie on the members of that church , as they stand under any other formall consideration ; what is the evill they are any of them guiltie of , in not answering these obligations , we were not at all enquiring , nor doth it in this place concerne us so to do . and in what he afterwards tells us of some proceedings contrary to the practise of the universall church she intends i suppose all the churches in the worldj wherein the members of the universall church have walked or do so ; for the universall church as such , hath no practice as to cecelebration of ordinances ; & if he suppose it hath , let him tell us what it is , and when that practice was . his appeale to the primitive believers , and their small number will not availe him : for although they should be granted to be the then catholick visible church ( against which he knowes what exceptions may be laid from the believers amongst the jewes , such as cornelius , to whom christ had not as yet been preached , as the messiah come , and exhibited ) yet as such , they joined not in the celebration of ordinances , but ( as yet they were ) as a particular congregation ; yea though all the apostles were amongst them , the foundation of all the churches that afterwards were called . he concludes this chapter with an exception to my assertion , that if the catholick church be a politicall body , it must have a visible politicall head , which nothing but the pope claimes to be . of this he saies , 1. there is no necessity , for saith he , he confesses the common wealth of the jews , was a politicall body , and god who is invisible , was their politicall head : 2. jesus christ is a visible head , yea sometimes more , visus , seen of men whilst on earth , though now for a time in majesty ( as some great princes do , ) he hath withdrawn himselfe from the sight of men on earth , yet is he seen of angels and saints in heaven . a. 1. i confesse god was the king and ruler of the jewes , but yet that they might be a visible politicall body , the invisible god , appointed to them under him , a visible head ; as the pope blasphemously pretends to be appointed under jesus christ . 2. jesus christ is in his humane nature still visible , as to his person , wherein he is the head of his church , he ever was , and is still invisible . his present absence , is not upon the account of majesty , seeing in his majesty he is still present with us ; and as to his bodily absence he gives other accounts , then that here insinuated . now it sufficeth not to constitute a visible politicall body , that the head of it , in any respect may be seen , unlesse as that their head he is seen : christ is visible , as this church is visible ; he in his lawes , in his word ; that in its profession , in its obedience . but i marvell that our reverend author thus concluding for christ to be the politicall head of this church , as a church , should at the same time contend for such subjects of this head as he doth , p. 96. namely persons , contradicting their profession of the knowledge of god , by a course of wickedness , manifesting principles of profaneness , wherewith the beliefe of the truth they profess , hath an absolute inconsistency ; as i expresly describe the persons , whose membership in this church , and relation thereby to christ their head he pleads for . are indeed these persons any better thēmahumetans as to church priviledges ? they are indeed in some places , as to providentiall advantages of hearing the word preached ; but woe unto them on that account ; it shall be more tolerable for mahumetans in that day of christ , then for them : shall their baptisme availe them ? though it were valid in its administration , that is , was celebrated in obedience to the cōmād of christ , is it not null to thē ? is not their circumcision uncircūcision ? shall such persons give their children any right to church priviledges ? let them if you please be so subjects to christ , as rebells and traitors are subject to their earthly princes : they ought indeed to be so , but are they so ? do they owne their authority ? are they obedient to them ? do they enjoy any priviledge of lawes ? or doth ▪ the apostle anywhere call such persons as live in a course of wickednesse , manifesting principles utterly inconsistent with the profession of the gospell , brethren ? god forbid we should once imagine these things so to be ! and so much for that chapter . chap. viii . of independentisme and donatisme . the title of our authors book is , independency a great schisme , of this chapter that it may be the better known what kind of schisme it is , independentisme is donatisme . men may give what title they please to their books and chapters , though perhaps few books make good their titles . i am sure this doth not as yet , nisi accusasse sufficiat : attempts of proof we have not as yet met withall : what this chapter will furnish us withall , we shall now consider . he indeed that shall weigh the title , independentisme is donatisme , & then casting his eye upon the first lines of the chapter it selfe , find , that the reverend author saies , he cannot but acknowledge , that what i plead for the vindication of protestants from the charge of schisme in their separation from rome , as the catholick church , to be rationall , solid , and judicious ; will perhaps be at a losse in conjecturing how i am like to be dealt withall in the following discourse ; a little patience will let him see , that our author laies more weight upon the title , then the preface of this chapter ; and that with all my fine trappings i am enrolled in the black booke of the donatists : but 1 quod fo rs feret feramus aequo animo ; or as another saith , debemus optare optima , cogitare difficulima , ferre quaecunque erunt ; as the case is fallen out , we must deal with it as we can . 1. he saith ; he is not satisfied , that he not only denies the church of rome ( so called ) to be a particular church , pag. 154. but also affirms it to be no church at all . that he is not satisfied , with what i affirm of that synagogue of sathan where he hath his throne , i cannot helpe it , though i am sorry for it : i am not also without some trouble , that i cannot understand , what he means by placeing my words , so as to intimate , that i say , not only that the church of rome is no particular church , but also that it is no church at all ; as though it might in his judgment or mine , be any church , if it be not a particular church ; for i verily suppose neither he nor i judg it to be that catholick church , whereto it pretends . but yet as i have no great reason to expect that this reverend author should be satisfied in any thing that i affirme , so i hope that it is not impossible , but that without any great difficulty , he may be reconciled to himselfe affirming the very same thing , that i do p. 113. it is of rome in that sence , wherein it claims it self to be a church , that i speak : & in that sence he saies it is no church of christs institution , and so for my part , i account it no church at all ; but he adds , that he is far more unsatisfied that i undertake the cause of the donatists , and labour to exempt them from schisme , though i allow them guilty of other crimes . but do i indeed undertake the cause of the donatists ? do i plead for thē ? will he manifest it by saying more against them in no more words , then i haved one ? do i labour to exempt them from schisme ? are these the waies of peace , love and truth that the reverend author walks in ? do i not condemne all their practises , and pretensions from the beginning to the end ? can i not speak of their cause in reference to the catholick church and its union , but it must be affirmed that i plead for them ? but yet as if righteousnesse and truth had been observ'd in this crimination , he undertakes as of a thing granted to give my grounds of doing , what he affirms me to have done : the first is , as he saies , his singular notion of schisme , limiting it only to differences in a particular assembly . 2. his jealousy of the charge of schisme to be objccted to himselfe , and party , if separating from the true churches of christ be truly called schisme . a. what may i expect from others , when so grave and reverend a person as this author is reported to be , shall thus deal with me ? sr i have no singular notion of schisme , but embrace that which paul hath long since declared , nor can you manifest any difference in my notion from what he hath delivered ; nor is that notion of schisme at all under consideration in reference to what i affirme of the donatists , ( who in truth were concerned in it , the most of them to them to the utmost ) but the union of the church catholick and the breach thereof ; neither am i jealous or fearfull of the charge ' of schisme , from any person living on the earth , and least of all from men proceeding in church affaires upon the principles you proceed on . had you not been pleased , to have supposed what you please , without the least ground , or colour , or reason , perhaps you would have as little satisfyed your selfe in the charge you have undertaken to manage against me , as you have done many good men , as the case now stands , even of your own judgment in other things . having made this entrance , he proceeds in the same way , and pag. 164. laye's the foundation of the title of his booke & this chapter , of his charge of donatisme in these words . this lies in full force against him and his party , who have broken the union of our churches , and separated themselves from all the protestant churches in the world , not of their own constitution , and that as no true churches of christ : this i say is the foundatiō of his whole ensuing discourse ; all the groūd that he hath to stand upon in the defence of the invidious title of this chapter ; and what fruit he expects from this kind of proceeding i know not ; the day will manifest of what sort this work is ; although he may have some mistaken apprehensions to countenance his conscience in the first part of his assertion , or that it may be forgiven to inveterate praejudice though it be false ; namely ; that i and my party ( that 's the phraseology , this author in his love to unity delights in ) have broken the union of their churches ( which we have no more done , then they have broken the union of ours , for we began our reformation with them , on even tearms , and were as early at work as they ) yet what coulour , what excuse can be invented to alleviate the guilt of the latter part of it , that we have separated from all the reformed churches as no churches ? and yet he repeats this again . pag. 106. with especiall reflexion on my selfe : i wonder not saith he , that the doctor hath unchurched roome , for he hath done as much to england and all forraign protestant churches , and makes none to be members of the church , but such as are by covenant and consent joyned to some of their congregations . now truly though all righteous laws of men in the world , will afford recompence and satisfaction for calumniating accusations and slaunders of much lesse importance then this here publickly ownd by our reverend author , yet seeing the gospell of the blessed god , requires to forgive , and passe by greater injuries , i shall labour in the strength of his grace to bring my heart unto conformity to his will therein ; notwithstanding which , because by his providence i am in that place and condition , that others also that fear his name may be some way concern'd in this unjust imputatiō , i must declare that this is open unrighteousness , wherein neither love nor truth hath been observed . how little i am concernd in his following parallell of independentisme and donatisme , wherein he proceeds with the same truth and candor , or in all that followes thereupon , is easy for any one to judg . he proceeds to scan my answers to the romanists , as in reference to their charge of schisme upon us ; and saies , i do it sutable to my own principles . and truly if i had not , i think i had been much to blame . i referre the reader to the answers given in my book , and if he like them not , notwithstanding this authors exceptions , i wish he may fix on those that please him better ▪ in them there given , my conscience doth acquiesce . but he comes in the next place to arguments , wherein if he prove more happy then he hath done in accusations , he will have great cause to rejoyce . by a double argument , as he saies , he will prove that there may be schisme besides that in a particular church . his first is this . schisme is a breach of union , but there may be a breach of union in the catholick visible church . his second this ; where there are differenccs raysed in matter of faith professed , wherein the union of the catholick church consists , there may be a breach of union , but there may be differences in the catholick , or among the members of the catholick church in matter of faith professed , ergo . having thus laid down his arguments , he falls to conjecture what i will answer , and how i will evade ; but it will quickly appear that he is no lesse unhappy in arguing and conjecturing , then he is , and was in accusing . for to consider his first argument : if he will undertake to make it good as to its forme , i will by the same way of arguing , ingage my selfe to prove what he would be unwilling to find in a regular conclusion . but as to the matter of it , 1. is schisme every breach of union ? or is every breach of union schisme ? schisme in the ecclesiasticall notion is granted to be in the present dispute , the breach of the union of a church , which it hath by the institution of christ ; and this not of any union of christs institution , but of one certaine kind of union ; for as was proved , there is an union , whose breach can neither in the language of the scripture , nor in reason , nor common sense be called or accounted schisme , nor ever was by any man in the world , nor can be without destroying the particular nature of schisme , and allowing only the generall notion of any separation , good or bad , in what kind soever . so that secondly , it is granted , not onlie that there may be a breach of union in the catholick church , but also that there may be a breach of the union of the catholick church , by a deniall or relinquishment of the profession wherein it consists ; but that this breach of union is sehisme , because sehisme is a breach of union , is as true , as that every man who hath two eyes , is every thing that hath two eyes . for his second , it is of the same importance with the first ; there may be differences in the catholick church , and breaches of union among the members of it , which are far enough from the breach of the union of that church , as such . two professors may fall out and differ , and yet i think continue both of them professors still . paul and barnabas did so ; chrysostome and epiphanius did so ; cyrill and theodoret did so . that which i denied was , that the breach of the union of the catholick church as such , is schisme . he proves the contrary by affirming there may be differences among the members of the catholick church , that do not break the union of it , as such . but he saies though there be apostasy , or heresy , yet there may be schisme also ; but not in respect of the breach of the same union , which only he was to prove . besides evill surmizes , reproaches , false criminations , and undue suggestions , i find nothing wherein my discourse is concerned to the end of this chap. pag. 109. upon the passage of mine ; we are thus come off from this part of schisme for the relinquishment of the catholick church , which we have not done , and so to do , is not schisme , but a sin of another nature , and importance ; he adds , that the ground i goe upon why separation from a true church ( he must meane the catholick church , or he speaks nothing at all the businesse in hand ) is no schisme , is that afore mentioned , that a schisme in the scripture notion is onely a division of jugment in a particular assembly . but who so blind as they that will not see ? the ground i proceeded on evidently , openly , solely , was taken from the nature of the catholick church its union , and the breach of that union , and if obiter i once mention that notion , i do it upon my confidence of its truth , which i here againe tender my selfe in a readinesse to make good to this reverend author , if at any time he will be pleased to command my personall attendance upon him to that purpose . to repeat more of the like mistakes and surmizes , with the wranglings that ensue on such false suppositions to the end of this chapter , is certainly needlesse ; for my part , in and about this whole businesse of separation from the catholick church , i had not the least respect to presbyterians or independents as such , nor to the differences betweē them , which alone our author out of his zeale to truth and peace attends unto : if he will fasten the guilt of schisme on any on the account of separation from the catholick church , let him prove that that church is not made up of the universality of professors of the gospell throughout the world , under the limitations expressed ; that the union of it as such , doth not consist in the profession of the truth ; and that the breach of that union whereby a man ceases to be a member of that church is schismes , otherwise to tell me that i am a sectary , a schismatick , to fill up his pages with vaine surmizes and supposalls , to talke of a difference and schsme among the members of the catholick church , or the like impertinencies , will never farther his discourse among men , either rationall , solid , or judicious . all that ensues to the end of this chapter is about the ordination of ministers , wherein however he hath beē pleased to deal with me in much bitternesse of spirit , with many clamours and false accusations ; i am glad to find him ( p. 120. ) renouncing ordination from the authority of the church of rome as such , for i am assured , that by his so doing , he can claime it no waie from , by , or through rome ; for nothing came to us from thence , but what came , in and by the authority of that church . chap. ix . we are now gathering towards what seems of most immediate concernment as to this reverend authors undertaking ; namely to treate of the nature of a particular church , its union and the breach of that union ; the description i give of such a church is this ; it is a society of men called by the word to the obedience of the faith in christ , and joint performance of the worship of god in the same individuall ordinances according to the order by him prescribed . this i professe to be a generall description of its nature , waving all contests about accurate definitions , which usually tend very little to the discovery or establishment of truth : after some canvassing of this description , our author tells us that he grants it to be the definition of a particular church , which is more then i intended it for ; only he adds that according to this description , their churches are as true as ours ; which i presume by this time he knowes was not the thing in question . his ensuing discourse of the will of christ , that men should joine not all in the same individuall congregation , but in this or that , is by me wholly assented ūto , and the matter of it contended for by me , as i am able ; what he is pleased to adde about explicite covenanting and the like , i am not at all for the present concerned in ; i purposely waved all expressions concerning it , one way or other , that i might not involve the businesse in hand with any unnecessary contests ; it is possible somewhat hereafter may be spoken to that subject , in a tendency unto the reconciliation of the parties at variance . his argument in the close of the section for a presbyterian church from acts 20. 17. because there is mention of more elders then one in that church , and therefore it was not one single congregation i do not understand ; i think no one single congregation is wholly compleated according to the mind of christ , unlesse there be more elders then one it ; there should be elders in every church ; and for my part , so we could once agree practically in the matter of our churches , i am under some apprehension that it were no impossible thing to reconcile the whole difference , as to a presbyterian church , or a single congregation . and though i be reproved a new for my pains , i may offer ere long to the candid consideration of godly men , something that may provoke others of better abilities and more leasure , to endeavour the carrying on of so good a work . proceeding to the consideration of the unity of this church , he takes notice of three things laid down by me , previously to what i was farther to assert ; all which he grants to be true , but yet will not let them passe without his animadversions . the two first are that 1. a man may be a member of the catholick invisible church , and 2 of the visible catholick church , and yet not be joyned to a particular church . these , as i said , he ownes to be true , but askes how i can reconcile this with what i said before , namely , that the members of the catholick visible church are initiated into the profession of the faith by baptisme ; but where lies the difference ? why saith he , baptisme according to his principles is an ordinance of worship only to be enjoyed in a particular church , whilst he will grant ( what yet he doth denie , but will be forced to grant ) that a minister is a minister to more then his owne church , even to the catholick church , and may administer baptisme out of a particular church , as phillip did to the eunuch . a. how well this author is acquainted with my principles , hath been already manifested ; as to his present mistake i shall not complaine , seeing that some occasion may be administred unto it , from an expression of mine , at least as it is printed , of which i shall speak afterwards ; for the present he may be pleased to take notice , that i am so far from confining baptisme subjectively to a particular congregation , that i do not believe that any member of a particular church was ever regularly baptized : baptisme precedes admission into church membership , as to a particular church ; the subject of it , is professing believers and their seed ; as such they have right unto it , whither they be joined to any particular church or no ; suitable to this judgment hath been my constant and uninterrupted practise . i desire also to know , who told him that i deny a minister to be a minister to more then his own church , or averred that he may perform ministeriall duty only in and towards the members of his own congregation : for so much as men are appointed the objects of the dispensation of the word i grant a man in the dispensation of it to act ministerially towards not only the members of the catholick church , but the visible members of the world also in contradistinction thereunto : the third thing laid down by me , whereunto also he assentes is , that every believer is oblieged to join himselfe to some one of those churches , that there he may abide in doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and prayer : but my reasons whereby i prove this , he saies he likes not so well : and truly i cannot helpe it ; i have little hope he should like any thing well which is done by me : let him be pleased to furnish me with better , and i shall make use of them ; but yet when he shall attempt so to doe , it is odds but that one or other , will find as many flawes in them as he pretends to do in mine ; but this , he saith he shall make use of , and that , he shall make advantage of , and i know not what , as if he were playing a prize upon a stage . the third reason is that which he likes worst of all , and i like the businesse the better , that what he understands least , that he likes worst ; it is , that christ hath given no direction for any duty of worship , meerly and purely of soveraign institution , but only to them and by them who are so joined ; hereupon he askes : 1. is baptisme a a part of worship ? a : yes , and to be so performed by them , that is a minister in , or of them ; i fear my expression in this place lead him to his whole mistake in this matter : 2. prayer and reading of the word in private families are they no duty of worship : an : not meerly and purely of soveraign institution . 3. is preaching to convert heathens a duty of worship ? not ( as described ) in all cases ; when it is , it is to be performed by a minister ; and so he knowes my answer to his next invidious inquiry , relating to my own person ; against my fourth reason taken from the apostles care to leave none out of this order , who were converted , where it was possible : he gives in the instance of the eunuch , and others converted where there were not enough to ingage in such societies ; that , is in them with whom it was impossible : my fift is from christ's providing of officers for these churches ; this also he saith is weak as the rest , for first , christ provided officers at first for the catholick church , that is the apostles . 2. all ordinary officers are set first in the catholicke church , and every minister is first a minister to the catholick church , and if ( saith he ) he deny this , he knowes where to find a learned antagonist . a. but see what it is to have a mind to dispute : will he deny that christ appointed officers for particular churches , or if he should have a mind to do it , will his arguments evince any such thing ; christ appointed apostles , catholick officers , therefore he did not appoint officers for particular churches ; though he commanded that elders should be ordained in every church ; pastors and teachers are set first in the catholick church , therefore christ hath not ordained officers for particular churches ; but this is the way with our author ! if any word offers it selfe , whence it is possible to draw out the mention of any thing , that is , or hath at any time been in difference between presbiterians and independents , that presently is run away withall ; for my part i had not the least thought of the controversie which to no purpose at all he would here lead me to : but yet i must tell him that my judgment is , that ordinary officers are firstly to be ordained in particular churches : and as i know where to find a learned antagonist as to that particular , so i do , in respect of every thing that i affirme or deny in the businesse of religion , and yet i blesse the lord i am not in the least disquieted or shaken in my adherence to the truth i professe . my last reason , he saith , is fallacious and inconsequent , and that because he hath put an inference upon it never intended in it . now the position that these reasons were produced to confirm being true , and so acknowledged by himselfe , because it is a truth that indeed i lay some more then ordinary weight upon , it being of great use in the daies wherein we live : i would humbly intreat this reverend author to send me his reasons whereby it may be confirmed , and i shall promise him if they be found of more validity then those which according to my best skill i have allready used , he shall obtain many thanks , and much respect for his favour ; what he remarks upon , or adds to my next discourse about instituted worship in generall , i shall not need to insist on : onely by the way i cannot but take notice of that which he calls a chiefe piece of independencie , and that is ! that those who are joined in church fellowship are so confined that they cannot or may not worship god in the same ordinances in other churches : how this comes to be a cheife peice of independency , i know ▪ not . it is contrary to the known practise of all the churches of england that i am acquainted with , which he calls independents . for my part i know but one man of that mind , and he is no child in these things . for the ensuing discourse about the intercision of ordinances , it being a matter of great importance , and inquired into by me meerly in reference to the roman apostacy , it needs a more serious disquisition , then any thing at present administred by our author will give occasion unto : possibly in convenient time i may offer somewhat farther towards the investigation of the mind of god therein : every thing in this present contest is so warped to the petty difference between presbyterians and independents , that no faire progresse nor opportunity for it can be afforded : if it may be , in my next debate of it , i shall wave al mentiō of those meaner differences : & as i remember i have not insisted on them in what i have allready proposed to this purpose , so possibly the next time i may utterly escape . for the present , i do not doubt but the spirit of god in the scripture , is furnished with sufficient authority to erect new churches , and set up the celebration of all ordinances on supposition that there was an intercision of them . to declare the way of his exerting his authority to this purpose , with the obviating of all objections to the contrary , is not a matter to be tossed up and down in this scambling chase : and i am not a litle unhappy , that this reverend person was in the dark to my designe and aime all along , which hath intangled this dispute with so many impertinences ; but however i shall answer a question which he is pleased to put to me in particular : he askes me then whither i do not think in my conscience that there were no true churches in england untill the brownists our fathers , the anabaptists our elder brothers , and our selves arose and gathered new churches . with thanks for the civility of the inquiry in the manner of its expression , i answer no! i have no such thoughts , and his pretence of my insinuation of any such thing , is most vaine , as also is his insultation thereupon ; truly if men will in all things take liberty to speak what they please , they have no reason but to think that they may at one time or other heare that which will displease ; having investigated the nature of a particular church , i proceed in my treatise of schisme , to inquire after the union of it , wherein it doth consist , and what is the breach thereof ; the summe is the joint consent of the members to walke together in celebration of the same numericall ordinances , according to the mind of jesus christ , is that wherein the union of such a church doth consist . this is variously excepted against : and i know not what disputes about an implicit and explicit covenant , of specificating forms , of the practise of new and old england , of admission of church members , of the right of the members of the catholick church to all ordinances , of the miscarriage of the independents , of church matriculations and such like things , not once considered by me in my proposall of the matter in hand ; are fallen upon . by the way he fals upon my judgment about the inhabitation of the spirit , calls it an error , and saies so it hath been reputed by all that are orthodox ; raising terrible suspitions and intimations of judgments on our way from god , by my falling into that error ; when yet i say no more then the scripture saith in expresse tearms forty times , for which i referre him to what i have written on that subject , wherein i have also the concurrence of polanus , bucanus , dorchetus with sundry others lutherans and calvinists ; it may be when he hath seriously weighed what i have offered to the clearing of that glorious truth of the gospell , he may entertain more gentle thoughts both concerning it and mee . the rest of the chapter i have passed thorow , once and againe , and cannot fix on any thing worthy of farther debate : a difference is attempted to be found in my description of the union of a particular church , in this and another place : because in one place i require the consent of the members to walke together , in another mention only their so doing , when the mention of that only , was necessary in that place , not speaking of it absolutely , but as it is the difference of such a church from the church catholick , some impropriety of expression is pretended to be discovered : ( id populus curat scilicet : ) which yet is a pure mistake of his , not considering unto what especiall end and purpose the words are used : he repeats sundry things as in opposition to me , that are things laid down by my selfe and granted : doth he attempt to prove that the union of a church is not rightly stated : he confesseth the form of such a church consists in the obscrvance and performance of the same ordinances of worship numerically : i aske , is it the command of christ that believers should so doe ? is not their obedience to that command , their consent so to do ? are not particular churches instituted of christ ? is it not the duty of every believer to join himselfe to some one of them ? was not this acknowledged above ? can any one do so without his consenting to do so ? is this consent any thing but his voluntary submission to the ordinances of worship therein ? as an expresse consent and subjection to christ in generall is required to constitute a man a member of the church catholick visible ; so if the lord jesus hath appointed any particular church for the celebration of his ordinances ; is not their consent who are to walke in them , necessary thereunto ? but the topick of an explicite covenant , presenting its selfe with an advantage , to take up some leaves , would not be waved , though nothing at all to the purpose in hand . after this , my confession made in as much condescension unto compliance as i could well imagine , of the use of greater assēblies , is examined , and excepted against , as being in my esteem , he saith , though it be not so indeed , a matter of prudence only : but i know full well , that he knows not what esteeme or disesteem i have of sundry things of no lesse importance . the consideration of my postulata , proposed in a preparation to what was to be insisted on , in the next chapter , as influenced from the foregoing dissertations alone remaines , and indeed alone deserve our notice . my first is this . the departing of any man or men from any particular church , as to the communion peculiar to such a church , is no where called schisme , nor is so in the nature of the thing it selfe , but is a thing to be judged and recieve a title according to the circumstances of it ; to this he adjoines ; this is not the question , a simple secessiō of a man or mē upon some just occasion is not called schisme , but to make causless differences in a church , and then separating from it , as no church , denying communion with it , hath the nature and name of schisme in all mens judgments but his own . an. what question doth our reverend author meane ? i feare he is still fancying of the difference between presbyterians and independents , and squaring all things by that imagination ; whether it be a question stated to his mind or no , i cannot tell , but it is an assertion expressive of mine owne , which he may do well to disprove if he can . who told him that raising causlesse differences in a church , and then separating from it , is not in my judgment schisme ? may i possibly retaine hopes of making my selfe understood by this reverend author ? i suppose though , that a pertinacious abiding in a mistake , is neither schisme nor heresy . and so this may be passed over . my second is , one church refusing to hold that communion with another , which ought to be between them , is not schisme properly so called . the reply hereunto is twofold ▪ 1. that one church may raise differences in , and with another church , and so cause schisme . 2 that the independents deny any communion of churches , but what is prudentiall , and so that communion cannot be broken . to the first i have spoken sufficiently before ; the latter is but an harping on the same string : i am not speaking of independent churches , nor upon the principles of independents , much lesse on them , which are imposed on them ; let the reverend author suppose or aver what communion of churches he pleaseth , my position holds in reference to it , nor can he disprove it ; however for my part i am not acquaintcd with those independents , who allow no communion of churches , but what is prudentiall ; and yet it is thought , that i know as many , as this reverend author doth . upon the last proposall we are wholly agreed ; so that i shall not need to repeat it ; only he gives me a sad farewell at the close of the chapter , which must be taken notice of ; is ( saith he ) not the design of his book to prove if he could , and condemne us as no churches , let the world be judge ; and i say let all the saints of god judge ; and jesus christ will judge whither i have not outragious injury done me in this imputation ; but , saith he , unless this be proved , he can never justify his separatiō . sr. when your & our brethren told the bishops , they thanked god they were none of them , and defied the prelaticall church , did they make a separation or no ; were they guilty of schisme ? i suppose you will not say so : nor do i ; yet have i done any such thing in reference to you or your churches ; i have no more separated from you , then you have done from me ; and as for the distance which is between us upon our disagreement about the way of reformation , let all the churches of god judge , on which side it hath been managed with more breach of love , on yours or mine ; let me assure you sir , through the mercy of god in jesus christ , i can freely forgive unto you all your reproaches , revilings , hard censurings , and endeavours to expose me to publick obloquie , and yet hope that i may have before we dy , a place in your heart and prayers . chap. x. independency no schisme . we are come now to the chapter that must do the work intended , or else operam & oleum perdidimus ; independentisme a great schisme , is the title of it ; what this independentisme is , he doth neither here declare , nor in any other part of his book ; nor do i know what it is that he intends by it ; i heare indeed from him that it is a schisme , a sect , but of what peculiar import , or wherein it consists , he hath not declared ; i suppose he would have it taken for separation from true churches , but neither doth the notion of the name , though invidiously broached and disavowed by them , to whom it is ascribed , import any such thing ; nor is the thing it selfe owned by them , with whom he pretends to have to do : i find indeed that he tells us , that all sectaries are independents ; anabaptists , seekers , ranters , quakers . doth he expect that i should undertake their defence ? what if it should appear , that i have done more against them then our reverend author , and many of his brethren joined with him ; he may perhaps be willing to load my selfe and those which he is pleased to call my associats , my party , i know not what , with their evills and miscarriages . but is this done as becomes a christian , a minister , a brother ? what security hath he , that had he been the only judge and disposer of things in religion in this nation , if i and my associats had been sent to plant churches among the indians , that he should have prevented the eruption of the errors and abominations which we have been exercised withall in this generation , unlesse he had sent for duke d'alva's instruments to work his ends by ? and indeed there is scarce any sect in the nation , but had they their desires , they would take that course . this may be done by any that are uppermost if they please . but how shall we know what it is he intends by independentisme : all ( it may be ) that are not presbyterians are independents . among these some professedly separate , both frō them & us , ( for there are none that separate from them , but withall they separate from us that i know of ) because , as they say , neither theirs nor ours are true churches ; we grant them to be true churches , but withall denie that we separate from them ; is it possible at once to defend both these sects of men ? is it possible at once with the same arguments to charge them ? the whole discourse then of our reverend author being uniforme , it can concerne but one of these sects of independents : which it is , any man may judge , that takes the least view of his treatise . he deals with them that unchurch their churches , unminister their ministers , disanull their ordinances , leaving them churchless , officerlesse , and in the like sad condition : is this independentisme a schism ? though that it is properly so called , he cānot prove , yet i hope he did not expect , that i should plead for it ; what i shall do in this case , i professe , well i know not . i here denie that i unminister their ministers , unchurch their churches ; hath this author any more to say to me , or those of my perswasion ? doth not this whole discourse proceed upon a supposition that it is otherwise with them with whom he hath to do ? only i must tell him by the way , that if he suppose by this concession , that i justifie and owne their way , wherein they differ from the congregationall ministers in england , to be of christs institution , or that i grant all things to be done regularly among them , and according to the mind of christ , therein i must professe he is mistaken . in breife by independentisme he intends a separation from true churches , with condemning them to be no churches , and their ministers no ministers , and their ordinances none , or antichristian ; whatever becomes of the nature of schisme , i disavow the appearing as an advocate in the behalfe of this independentisme . if by independentisme he understand the peaceable proceeding of any of the people of god in this nation in the severall parts of it , to joine themselves by their free consent to walk together in the observation and celebration of all the ordinanees of christ appointed to be observed and celebrated in particular churches , so to reforme themselves from the disorders wherein they were intangled , being not able in some things to joine in that way of reformation , which many godlie ministers cōmonly called presbyterians , have ingaged in , and seek to promote , without judging & condemning thē as to the whole of their station or ordināces ; if this i say be intended by independentisme , when the reverend author shall undertake to prove it schisme , having not in this book spoken one word or title to it , his discourse will be attended unto . this whole chapter then being spent against them , who deny them to be true churches , and defend separation , i marvaile what can be said unto it by me , or how i come to be concerned in it , who grant them true churches , and denie separation . but our reverend author , knowing that if this bottome be taken from under him , he hath no foundation for any thing he asserts , thought it not sufficient to charg me over and over with what is here denyed , but at length attempts to make it good frō mine own words ; which if he doth effect make & good , i confesse he changes the whole nature and state of the dispute in hand : let ut see thenhow he answers this undertaking . from those words of mine , the reformation of any church , or any thing in it , is the reducing of it to its primitive institution : approving the assertion as true , he labors to evince that i deny their churches to be true churches ; how so i pray ; why we erect new churches out of no churches ; and it had been happy for england if we had all gone to do this work among the indians . what will prove englands happinesse or unhappinesse , the day will manifest ; this is but mans day and judgment . he is coming who will not judg by the seeing of the eye , nor by the hearing of the ear ; in the mean time , we blesse god , & think all england hath caus to blesse god , what ever become of us , that he and our brethren of the same mind with him , in the things of god , have their liberty to preach the gospell , and carry on the work of reformation in their native soyle , and are not sent into the ends of the earth , as many of ours have been . but how doth our gathering of churches denie them to be true churches ? doth our granting them to be true churches , also grant that all the saints in england are members of their churches ? it is notoriously known , that it is and was otherwise , and that when they , and we began : to reform , thousands of the people of god in these nations , had no reason to suppose themselves to belong to one particular church rather then another . they lived in one parish , heard in another , removed up and down for their advantage , and were in bondage on that account all their daies . but he saies in some words following i discover my very heart : i cannot but by the way tell him , that it is a sufficient evidence of his unacquaintednesse with me , that he thinks there is need of searching , and racking my words to discover my very heart , in any thing that belongs ( though in never so remote a distance ) to the worship of god . all that know me , know how open and free , i am in these things , how ready on all occasions to declare my whole heart ; it is neither fear nor favour can influence me unto another frame : but what are the words that make this noble discovery : they are these that follow : when any society or combination of men ( what ever hitherto it hath been esteemed ) is not capable of such a reduction , and revocation ( that is to its primitive institution ) i suppose i shall never provoke any wise or sober person , if i professe i cannot look on such a society as a church of christ : his reply hereunto is the hinge upon which his whole discourse turneth , and must therefore be considered . thus then he ; is not this , reader , at once to unchurch all the churches of england since the reformation ? for it is known , during the raign of the prelates they were not capable of that reduction : and what capacity our churches are now in for that reduction , partly by want of power and assistance from the magistrate , without which some dare not set upon a reformation , for fear of a praemunire , partly by our divisions amongst our selves , fomented by he knowes whom , he cannot but see as well as we lament . and hereupon he proceeds with sundry complaints of my dealing with them . and now chistian reader what shall we say to these things ? a naked supposition , of no strength , nor weight , that will not hold in any thing or case , namely that a thing is not to be judged capable of that , which by some externall force it is withheld from , is the sole bottome of all this charge . the churches of england were capable of that reduction to their primitive institution , under the prelates , though in some things hindred by them , from an actuall reducement ; so they are now in sundry places , where the work is not so much as attempted ; the sluggards feild is capable of being weeded ; the present pretended want of capacity from the non-assistance of the magistrate , whilest perfect liberty for reformation is given , and the worke in its severall degrees incouraged , will be found to be a sad plea for some , when things come to be tryed out by the rule of the gospell . and for our divisions i confesse i begin to discover somewhat more by whom they are fomented , then i did four daies agoe : for the matter it selfe . i desire our reverend author to take notice , that i judg every church capable of a reduction to its primitive institution , which , all outward hinderances being removed , and all assistances granted , that are necessary for reformation according to the gospell , may be reduced into the forme and order appointed unto a particular church by jesus christ ; and where any society is not so capable , let them call themselves what they please , i shall advise those therein , who have personally a due right to the priviledges purchased for them by jesus christ , in the way of their administration by him appointed , to take some other peaceable course to make themselves partakers of them ; and forgiving this advise i neither dread the anger nor indignation of any man living in the world : and so i suppose by this time the author knowes what is become of his , quod erat demonstrandum ; and here in room of it i desire him to accept of this return . those who in the judgment of charity were and continue , members of the church catholick invisible by vertue of their union with christ the head thereof ; and members of the generall visible church , by their due profession of the savings truths of the gospell , and subjection to christ jesus their king and saviour according to them , do walke in love and concord in the particular churches , whereof by their own consent and choice they are members , not judging and condemning other particular churches of christ , where they are not members as they are such , as to their stationand priviledges , being ready for all instituted communion with thē , as revealed are not according to any gospell rule , nor by any principles acknowledged amongst christians , to be judged or condemned as guilty of schisme ; but such are all they for whom , under any consideration what ever , i have pleaded as to their immunity from this charge , in my treatise of schisme ; therefore they are not to be judged so guilty . if you please , you may adde , quod er at demonstratum . i shall not digresse to a recharge upon this reverend author , and those of the same profession with him , as to their mistakes and miscarriages in the work of reformation , nor discusse their waies and principles , wherein i am not satisfied as to their proceduce : i yet hope for better things , then to be necessitated to carry on the defensative of the way wherein i walk by opposing theirs . it is true that he who stands upon meer defence , is thought to stand upon none at all : but i wait for better things from men , then their hearts will yet allow them , to think of . i hope the reverend author thinks , that as i have reasons wherewith i am satisfied as to my own way , so i have those that are of the same weight with me against him . but what ever he may surmise i have no mind to foment the divisions that are amongst us ; hence i willingly bear all his imputations without retortion . i know in part how the case is in the world . the greatest chargers have not alwaies the most of truth ; witnesse papists , lutherans , prelutists , anabaptists . i hope i can say in sincerity , i am for peace ; though others make themselves ready for war . but we must proceed a litle further , though as to the cause by me undertaken to be managed , causelessely . the discourse of our author from the place fixed on , wherein he faintly indeavoured to make good the foundation of this chapter , which i have allready considered , consists of two parts : 1. his animadversions on some principles which i lay down , as necessary to be stated aright and determined , that the question about gathering churches may be clearly and satisfactorily debated . some of them he saies have been handled by others ; which if it be a rule of silence to him , and me , it might have prevented this tedious debate : what ever his thoughts may be of my pamphlet , i do not fear to affirm of his treatile , that i have found nothing in it , from the beginning to the ending , but what hath lien neglected on booksellers stalls for above these seven years . for the rest of those principles , which he excepts against , as he thinks meet , i leave their consideration , to that farther enquiry , which the lord assisting i have destined them unto . the way of gathering churches upon a supposition of their antecedency to officers , he saies is very pretty , and loads it with the difficulty of mens comming to be baptized in such a case : but as i , can tell him of that which is neither true , nor pretty , in the practise of some whom he knowes , or hath reason so to do , so i can assure him that we are not concerned in his objection about baptisme , and with them who may possibly be so , it is a ridiculous thing , to think it an objection . and for that part of my enquiry , whether the church be before ordinary officers , or they before it , as sleight as he is pleased to make of it , it will be found to lie very near the bottome of all our differences , and the right stating of it , to conduce to the composure and determination of them . his charges and reflexions which he casts about in his passage , are not now to be further mentioned ; we have had them over and over ; indeed we have had little else : if strong , vehement , passionate affirmations , complaints , charges , falfe imputations , and the like , will amount to a demonstration in this businesse , he hath demonstrated independentisme to be a great schisme . he shuts up his discourse as he began it ; reciting my words by adding , interposing , perverting , commenting , enquiring , he makes them speak what he pleases , and compasses the ends of his delight upon them . what contentment he hath received in his so doing , i know not ; nor shall i expresse what thoughts i have , of such a course of proceedure : this only i shall say , it is a facile way of writing treatises and proving what ever men have a mind unto . my last taske is to look back to the beginning of this last chapter , and to gather up in our passage , what may seem to respect the businesse in hand , and so the whole matter will be dismissed . the plea insisted on for immunity from the charge of schisme , with reference to the episcopall government of the church of england , and the constitution which under it , it is pretended to have had , he passes over ; though on sundry accounts his concernments ly as deeply in it as in any thing pleaded in that treatise . the things he is pleased to take notice of , as far as they tend in the least to the issue of the debate between us , shall be reviewed . considering the severall senses wherein that expression , the church of england , may be taken , i manifest in my treatise , in which of them , and how far , we acknowledg our selves to have been , and to continue members of the church of england . the first is as it comprises the elect believers in england : what the unity of the church in this sense is , was before evinced ; our desire to be found members of this church , with our indeavour to keep the unity of it in the bond of peace , was declared . i am greived to repeat our reverend authors exceptions to this declaration ; saies he , unlesse he think , there are no members of this church in england , but those that are of his formed particular churches , i fear he will be found to break the union that ought to be between them : and why so i pray ? the union of the members of the church in this sense , consists in their joint union to & with christ their head by one spirit . what hath the reverend author to charge upon me with reference thereunto ? let him speak out to the utmost ; yea i have some reason to think that he will scarce spare , where he can strike ; god forbid that i should think all the members of the catholick church in england to be comprised either jointly or severally in their churches or ours , seeing it cannot be avoided but you will keep up those notes of division . i doubt not but there be many thousands of them who walk neither with you nor us . he adds , that by gathering saints of the first magnitude we do what lies in us , to make the invisible church visible : it is confessed , we do so ; yea we know that that church which is invisible in some respect , and under one formall consideration , is visible as to its profession , which it makes unto salvation . this , with all that lies in us , we draw them out unto : what he addes about the churches being elect , and the uncomely parts of it , which they may be for a season who are elect believers , because it must be spoken ; are uselesse cavills . for the scornfull rejection of what i affirm concerning our love to all the members of this church , and readinesse to tender them satisfaction in case of offence , with his insinuatiō of my want of modesty and truth in asserting these thoughts , because he will one day know , that the words he so despises , were spoken in sincerity , and with the reverence of the great god , & out of love to all his saints , i shall not farther vindicate them ; such hay and stubble must needs burn . my next profession of our relation to the church of england , in respect of that denomination given to the body of professours in this nation , cleaving to the doctrine of the gospell , here preached and established by law , as the publike profession of this nation . but he tels me first : 1. that many independent churches in this nation , are grosly apostatized from that doctrine , and so are hereticall . 2. that the worship was professed and protested , and established as well as the doctrine , and that we are all departed from it , and so are schismaticall : for we hold communion with them , he sayes in the same doctrine , but not in the same worship . answer . his first exception ariseth from the advantage he makes use of , from his large use of the word independent , which will serve him in his sense for what end he pleaseth . in the sense before declared his charge is denyed ; let him prove it by instance if he be able : surely god hath not given orthodox men leave to speak what they please , without due regard to love and truth . 2. as to the worship established in this nation by law , ( he means the way of worship , for the substantials of it we are all agreed in ) i suppose he will not say a relinquishment of the practice of it is schisme ; if he do , i know what use some men will make of his affirmation , though i know not how he will free himselfe from being schismaticall ; for his renewed charg of schisme , i cannot i confesse be moved at it , proceeding from him , who neither doth , nor will know what it is . his next indeavour is to make use of another concession of mine , concerning our receiving of our regeneration and new birth by the preaching of the word in england ; saying , could they make use of our preaching &c. but the truth is , when the most of us by the free grace of god received our new birth through the preaching of the word , neither they , nor we , as to the practice of our waies , were in england ; so that their concernment as such , in the concession is very small ; and we hope since in respect of others , our owne ministry hath not been altogether fruitlesse , though we make no comparison with them . in rendring of the next passage which is concerning anabaptists and anabaptisme , i shall not contend with him ; he hath not in the least impaired the truth of what i assert in reference to them and their way . i cannot but take notice of that passage which for the substance of it hath so often occurred , and that is this ; doth not himselfe labor in this booke to prove that the administration of ordinances in our assemblies is null , our ordination null and antichristian . for the proofe of which suggestion he referrs his reader to page 197 of my book . i confesse seeing this particular quotation , i was somewhat surprised , and began to feare that some expression of mine ( though contrary to my professed judgment ) might have given countenance to this mistake , and so be pleaded as a justification of all the uncharitablenesse and something else , wherewith his book is replenished ; but turning to the place i was quickly delivered from my trouble , though i must ingeniously confesse , i was cast into another which i shall not now mention . page 167. we arrive at that which alone almost i expected would have been insisted on , and quite contrary thereto , it is utterly waved ; namely the wholebusinesse of a nationall church , upon which account indeed all the pretence of the charge this reverend author is pleased to mannage , doth arise . take that out of the way , and certainly they , and we are upon even termes ; and if we will be judged by them who were last in possession of the reiglement of that church , upon supposition that there is such a church still , they are no more interested in it then we , yea are as guilty of schisme from it as we . but that being set aside and particular churches only remaining , it will be very difficult for him to raise the least pretence of his great charge . but let us consider what he thinks meete to fasten on , in that discourse of mine about a nationall church . the first thing is my inquiry , whether the denyall of the institution of a nationall church ( which he pleads not for ) doth not deny in consequence that we had either ordinances or ministry amongst us : to which i say , that though it seemes so to do , yet indeed it doth not , because there was then another church state , even that of particular churches amongst us , with many kind reflections of my renouncing my ministry and rejecting of my jejune and empty vindication of their ministry ( which yet is the very same that himselfe fixes on ) he asks me how i can in my conscience beleive , that there were any true ministers in this church in the time of its being nationall , and so proceeds to inferre from hence my denying of all ministry and ordinances among them . truly though i were more to be despised then i am ( if that be possible ) yet it were not common ▪ prudence for any man to take so much paines to make me his enemy , whether i will or no . he cannot but know that i deny utterly , that ever we had indeed , whatever men thought , a nationall church ; for i grant no such thing , as a nationall church in the present sense contended about . that in england under the rule of the prelates , when they looked on the church as nationall , there were true churches , and true ministers , though in much disorder as to the way of entring into the ministry and dispensing of ordinances , i grant freely ; which is all this reverend author , if i understand him , pleads for ; and this he saies i was unwilling to acknowledge , lest i should thereby condemne my selfe as a schismatick . truly , in the many sad differences and divisions that are in the world amongst christians , i have not been without sad and jealous thoughts of heart , lest by any doctrine or practise of mine i should occasionally contribute any thing unto them ; if it hath been otherwise with this author , i envy not his frame of spirit . but i must freely say , that having together with them , weighed the reasons for them ; i have been very little moved with the clamorous accusations , and insinuations of this author . in the meane time , if it be possible to give him satisfaction , i here let him know , that i assent unto that summe of all he hath to say , as to the church of england , namely that the true and faithfull ministers , with the people in their severall congregations , administring the true ordinances of jesus christ , whereof baptisme is one , was and is the true church state of england , from which i am not separated ; nor do i think that some addition of humane prudence , or imprudence can disanull the ordinances of jesus christ . upon the disavower made of any other nationall church state , and the assertion of this to answer all intents and purposes , i suppose now that the reverend author knowes that it is incumbent on him to prove , that we have been members of some of these particular churches in due order , according to the mind of christ , to all intents and purposes of church membership , and that we have in our individuall persons raised causelesse differences in those particular churches whereof we were members respectively , and so separated from them , with the condemnation of them ; or else according to his owne principles he failes in his brotherly conclusion : {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . i suppose the reader is weary of pursuing things so little to our purpose : if he will hear any further , that independents are schismaticks , that the setting up of their way hath opened a door to all evills and confusions , that they have separated from all churches , and condemne all churches in the world but their owne ; that they have hindred reformation and the setting up of the presbyterian church ; that being members of our churches , as they are members of the nation , because they are borne in it , yet they have deserted them ; that they gather churches which they pretend to be spick and span new ; they have separated from us , that they countenance quakers , and all other sectaries , that they will reforme a nationall church whether men will or no , though they say that they only desire to reforme themselves , and plead for liberty to that end . if any man i say have a mind to read or heare of this any more , let him read the rest of this chapter , or else converse with some persons whom i can direct him to , who talke at this wholsome rate all the day long . what seems to be my particular concernment , i shall a little further attend unto . some words ( for that is the manner of mannaging this controversie ) are culled out from pag. 259. 260. to be made the matter of farther contest . thus they lie in my treatise . as the not giving a mans selfe up unto any way , and submiting to any establishment pretended or pleaded to be of christ , which he hath not light for , and which he was not by any act of his owne formerly ingaged in , cannot with any colour or pretence of reason be reckoned to him for schisme , though he may if he persist in his refusall prejudice his owne edification ; so no more can a mans peaceable relinquishment of the ordinary communion of one church in all its relations be so esteemed . these words have as yet unto me a very harmelesse aspect ; but our reverend author is sharp-sighted , and sees i know not what monsters in them : for first ( saith he ) here he seems to me to be a very sceptick in his way of independency : why so i pray ? this will gratify all sects , quakers , and all with a toleration : how i pray ? it is schisme , not toleration we are treating about . but this leaves them to judge of , as well as others , what is , and what is not according to the mind of christ , why pray sr. who is appointed to judge finally for them ? why then should they be denied their liberty ? but is that the thing under consideration ? had you concluded that their not submitting to what they have not light for its institution , is not properly schisme , you should have seen how far i had been concerned in the inference : but excursions unto quakers &c. are one topick of such discourses . but now he askes me one question , it seems to try whither i am a sceptick or no ; whether ( saith he ) does he believe his owne way to be the only true way of christ , for he hath instituted but one way , having run from and renounced all other waies in this nation . i promise you this is a hard question ; and not easily answered . if i deny it , he will say i am a sceptick , and other things also will be brought in : if i affirme it , it may be he will say that i condemne their churches for no churches , and the like : it is good to be wary when a man hath to deale with wise men ; how if i should say that our way and their way is for the substance of them , one way , and so i cannot say that my way is the only true way exclusively to theirs : i suppose this may do pretty well . but i fear this will scarce give satisfactiō , & yet i know not well how i can go any farther ; yet this i will adde ; i doindeed believe , that wherein their way and our way differ , our way is according to the mind of christ and not theirs : and this i am ready at any time ( god assisting ) personally to maintaine to him : and as for my running from waies of religion , i dare againe tell him , these reproaches and calumnies become him not at all . but he proceeds , if so , ( saith he ) is not every man bound to come into it , and not upon every conceived new light to relinquish it . truly i think mr. c. himselfe is bound to come into it , and yet i do not think that his not so doeing makes him a schismatick : and as for relinquishment i assert no more , then what he himselfe concludes to be lawfull . and thus christian reader i have given thee a briefe account of all things of any importance that i could meet withall in this treatise , and of many which are of very little ; if thou shalt be pleased to compare my treatise of schisme with the refutation of it , thou wilt quickly see , how short this is , of that which it pretends to : how untouched my principles do abide , and how the most materiall parts of my discourse are utterly passed by , without any notice taken of them . the truth is , in the way chosen by this reverend author to proceed in , men may multiply writings to the worlds end , without driving any controversy to an issue ; descanting and harping on words , making exceptions to particular passages and the like , is an easy and facile , and to some men a pleasant labour : what small reason our author had to give his book the title it bears , unlesse it were to discover his designe , i hope doth by this time appeare . much of the proofe of it lies in the repeated asseverations of it , it is so , and it is so . if he shall be pleased to send me word of one argument tending that way , that is not founded in an evident mistake , i will promise him , if i live , a reconsideration of it . in the mean time i humbly beg of this reverend author , that he would review in the presence of the lord the frame of spirit , wherein he wrote this charge ; as also that he would take into his thoughts all the reproaches , and all that obloquy he hath endeavoured to load me causlesly and falsly withall . as for my selfe , my name , reputation , and esteeme with the churches of god , to whom he hath indeavoured to render me odious , i commit the whole concernment of them to him , whose presence through grace i have hitherto injoyed , and whose promise i leane upon , that he will never leave me nor forsake me . i shall not complaine of my usage : but what am i ? of the usage of many pretious saints and holy churches of jesus christ , to him that lives and sees , any farther then by begging that it may not be laid to his charge : and if so meane a person as i am , can in any way be serviceable to him , or to any of the churches that he pleads for , in reference to the gospell of christ , i hope my life will not be deare to me that i may effect it ; and i shall not cease to pray that both he and those who promoted this worke in his hand , may at length consider the many calls of god that are evident upon them , to lay aside these unseemly animosities , and to endeavour a coalition in love , with all those who in sincerity call upon the name of the lord jesus christ , their lord and ours . for the distances themselves that are between us , wherein we are not as yet agreed ; what is the just state of them , the truth and warrantablenesse of the principles whereupon we proceed , with the necessity of our practice in conformity thereunto , what we judge our brethren to come short in , of , or wherein to go beyond the mind of jesus christ , with a farther ventilation of this businesse of schisme , i have some good grounds of expectation , that possibly ere long we may see a faire discussion of these things , in a pursuit of truth and peace . finis . an husbandmans harrow to pull down the ridges of the presbyteriall government and to smooth, a little, the independent ... containing divers new and unanswerable arguments ... / written by ellis bradshavv ... bradshaw, ellis. 1649 approx. 265 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 56 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-01 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a29130 wing b4144 estc r1233 13067041 ocm 13067041 97084 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a29130) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 97084) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 409:11) an husbandmans harrow to pull down the ridges of the presbyteriall government and to smooth, a little, the independent ... containing divers new and unanswerable arguments ... / written by ellis bradshavv ... bradshaw, ellis. [17], 88 p. printed for the author ..., london : 1649. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng presbyterianism. congregationalism. church polity -early works to 1800. 2006-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-07 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2006-07 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an husbandmans harrow to pull down the ridges of the presbyteriall government and to smooth , a little , the independent . that they and others may walk together upon plain scripture grounds , without stumbling on the ridgedness of either , or both . containing divers new and unanswerable arguments , properly deduced from sacred scriptures to this purpose , that have never yet been proposed by any on either partee , which induceth the husbandman to make thus bold whether welcome or no. and having prooved also the said scripturall arguments , that like teeth of steel , they will pull down the ridges , before they break or bend ; having been forced to try them upon ridged lands : because he could not walk upon either of their grounds without stumbling on the ridges . written by ellis bradshavv of the parish of bolton , in the county of lancaster , husbandman . london , printed for the author , and are to be sold at the black spread eagle at the west end of pauls . 1649. to the reader . beloved brethren ; who ever you be that shall read or hear , and understand those things that are here exprest . i desire briefly in the name of god , and the lord jesus christ , to admonish and exhort , yea , to kindle , and incourage you in the ways of truth , of meekness , and of righteousnesse , as psal . 45. & hebr. 1. but to danke , and daunt , and discourage the adversaries in every respect , wherein they doe oppose , or exalt themselves against the lord jesus , or against his scepter ; yea , against his kingdom , against his truth , and meekness , and righteousnesse , as hebr. 1. 8 , 9 , &c. for the time is come , that he hath taken to himself ( even ) his great power , and hath in ( measure ) raigned , as revel . 11. 17. nay , there is heard ( already , even ) a loud voyce , saying in heaven ; ( to wit , in the church ) now is salvation , and strength , and the kingdome of our god , and the power of his christ ; for the accuser of our brethren , ( to wit , sathan ) is already cast down , which accused them before our god day and night , as revel . 12. 10 , 11 , 12. and they have ( in measure alredy ) overcom by the bloud of the lamb , and by the word of their testimony . and if you aske ( who ) that have thus overcome . they are plainly noted what stamp they are [ of ; ] for they are of such , as have not loved their lives unto the very death . this is their stamp , and let it be their motto , for there is none more proper , neither any more precious , or truly honourable amongst the sons of men . and therefore rejoyce ye heavens , ( to wit , yee churches ) and ye that dwel in them . but wo be to the inhabitants of the earth , and of the sea , for the devil himself is come down unto you , [ and that ] having great wrath , knowing that he hath but a short time , till he must be inclosed , and chained up , in the bottomless pit , for a thousand years , as chap. 20. 1 , 2 , 3. for he must be shut up , and a seale set upon him , that he shall deceive the nations no more , till the thousand years shall be fulfilled : though after that , he must be loosed , for a little season . and therefore to dank , and dant , and discourage the adversaries ; and for terror and amazement , even to the people of god ; yea , such as fear his name , whether they be small or great . lest they should be ingaged on the adversaries part ; against michael , and against his angels , as revel . 12. 7. even against him , i meane , that is the first and the last , that liveth , and was dead , but that is now alive for evermore , amen : who hath the keys of hell and of death , chap. 1. 17 , 18. yea , for terror unto such , as shall ingage against him ; i might write a book , not only within , but on the backside ; like that spoken of in ezekiel ; and all full , even of bitter lamentations , and mournings , and woes . though it is doubtful , it should but be in ( vain to the most part . ) for even the people of god , that are his elect and precious , are many of them grown , even secure and careless ; yea , dull and uncapable of any deep impressions , either of fears , or hopes : and they are too apt , either not to [ hear , ] or when they have heard , to let the wordsslip , as heb. 2. 1 , 2 , 3. and so incur to themselves so much greater judgements , unless they repent . and therefore , woe , woe , and alass for ever , to all that do but neglect ; much more , that despise so great salvation , hebr. 2. 3 , 4 , to 9. yea , woe , woe , and alass for ever , to the inhabitants of the earth that forget god. and above all , unto them , that in measure know god , and yet in no measure will glorifie him as god , neither are thankful ; but become vaine in their imaginations , &c. as rom. 1. 21. yea , who have changed the truth of god into a lye : and worshipped , and served the creature ( yea any creature ) more then the creator , who is god indeed , blessed for ever , amen . yea , woe , woe , and alass for ever , unto those , who not likeing to retaine god in their knowledge , nor in their minds and thoughts , he shall give them over to a reprobate minde , to doe those things which are not convenient , being filled with all unrighteousness , &c. as the particulars are enumerated , rom. 1. 28 , 29 , 30 , 31 , 32. yea , woe unto the world because of offences : and though it must needs be , that offences shall come , yet woe unto such , by whom they come : it were better for them that a mill stone were hanged about their necks ; and they were cast into the sea , then that they should offend but one of the least of those little ones , ' that beleeve in christ , as matth. 18. & 3. to 14. and what ever men thinke , yea , though they care not to despise or offend , and reproach , yea even murther and destroy , and seek to root out , even the very names and posterities of any such little ones , that beleeve in christ ; making no more account of the killing of such , then of so many fleas . yet , it is not the will of their heavenly father , that so much as one of these little ones should perish , as vers . 14. and therefore it is , that he doth admonish us , how to deale with such , if they trespass against us , vers . 15 , &c. for precious in the sight of the lord is the death of his saints . and he will doubtless preserve their souls , though cruel cains , shall destroy their bodies : yea , he will doubtless , preserve the faithful , and plenteously reward every proud doer . but let it admonish such who are faithful , and that obey his voyce , to take heed unto themselves ; and if their brethren sin against them , tell them of their faults ; and if they repent , forgive them , &c. yea , though seven times over in one day , as mat. 18. for we are not allowed to hate our brethren in our hearts ; but to tel them of their faults plainly . neither is it lawful to judg and censure them , as rom. 15. 4. 7 , 10 , 12 , 13 , 19 , 22. & chap. 15. 1 , 2 , 3 , 5 , 6 , 7. according to appearance , but righteous judgement ; we are not allowed to account them as enemies , but to admonish them as brethren ; yea though they so far disobey , even the apostles sayings , as that we are necessarily ingaged , to withdraw from them , as 2 thes . 3. 6. and therefore woe unto such , what ever they be , whether presbyterians , or independants , that shall resist the truth , of which they are convinced , and shal , through partial respects to their own parts , seek the destruction either of other , and remain implacable , and malign , and hate , and despise their brethren , because in every respect they cannot accord to be of their minds , nor walk with them just in their ways , when yet not withstanding if partiallity do not blind their eyes , they may both see faults in their own ways , in which they are engaged , which no engagement ought to bind them to maintain or abide in after they are discovered , but they ought freely to confess their faults each to others , as james 4. 11. 12. & chap. 5. 16. being convinced of them , and both of them ought to consent freely to the wholesom words of our lord and saviour even jesus christ , and to the doctrine which is according to godliness , & not to teach otherwise ; but if any do , the apostle telleth us plainly , ( and we are apt to beleeve it , ) that such are puft up , and know nothing , but dote about questions and strifes of words , whereof cometh envy , strife , railing , evil surmisings , perverse disputings , of men , of corrupt minds , and destitute of the truth , supposing that gain is godliness : and biddeth timothy , from such to withdraw himself , as 1 tim. 6. 3 , 4 , 5. and we are apt to do as he advised timothy , for if it was good for timothy , it is in all liklihood good for us also ; and how shall we think such men honest , that will not approve of the things that are honest , as the apostle injoyneth them in another place ? for it is not enough not to oppose , or resist , and speak against such things , but they ought to approve them , and testifie their assent and agreement thereunto , so far forth as they are apparently honest or true , &c. else they do implicitely oppose and resist them , or shew their unwillingness to embrace and obey them , and that they are stubborn and rebellious , and even at enmity with god in those respects , because he crosseth them even in their own devices and ways , &c. and doubtless many good men in these our days are deeply engaged in this very sin , and yet we are not allowed to judg and censure them as enemies and apostates , but should love , and pity , and pray for them , considering our selves as also subject to the same failings . beloved brethren , the scripture is clear concerning jonas , that he was a prophet of the lord , and was immediately called and sent of god , as a choyce and famous man , to prophesie against nineve , and yet because that he knew the goodness and mercy of god , and that upon repentance he would pardon ; he was unwilling even to preach the preaching which the lord commanded him , in all likelihood , lest his future prophecying should be the worse credited ; and how rebelliously he carryed and demeaned himself , till he was forced through extremity , by the power of god , to submit unto him , and humble himself , and out of the belly of hell even to cry unto him : and after all that , being but a little afflicted for want of the gourd , how passionately angry and teeny he was , and durst profess stubbornly , even in the presence of god , speaking it vocably unto him , that he did well to be angry , even to the very death ; like a man desperate , and as he had been at enmity even with god himself ; and yet he was , doubtless , a man inspired with the spirit of god , and very intimate and familiar with him : look for this jonas 4. and therefore strange is the temper , and natural frailties and dispositions ( by nature ) of some good men : nay , who can we read of almost in scripture , though never so holy and fully inspired , but we may read likewise of their failings and infirmities , and of some of their gross and notorious sins ; as david in the matter of uriah ; peter in his dissimulation , and building up that by his practise , which he destroyed by his doctrine : and paul had his infirmities and pricks in the flesh after his conversion and calling to the ministry . elias also was a man subject to like passions , as the apostles were , who confessed themselves subject to like passions as others , acts 14. 15. and yet they were men full of faith , and of the holy ghost ; so was barnabas , so was peter , so were all the apostles , and many others , in whom we might instance ; and it would be useful to determine from murder , or [ hating ] of their brethren , which is no better then [ man-slaughter , ] as 1 john 3. 5. which many are too apt to take liberty to do , ( because they see some faults and miscarriages in them , ) as if it were a ground fully sufficient to excuse their malice , because they have some spots , yea some flesh , as well as spirit : and they will not beleeve , that any such have the spirit of god , because they have also a spirit of flesh , a law in their members , by which they are led captive , against the law of their minds ; for they will not consider that they have but the spirit of god in measure : and that it is needful they be sometimes left to their own strength , that they might remember , and freely acknowledg , by whose strength they stand , and give the glory to god ; for who is there , but is apt to think , that their mountains are made strong , so that they shall never be moved , and to judg , and censure , and condemn their brethren , and say of themselves like the proud pharisee , [ we are not like other men ? ] if they should not sometimes have pricks in the flesh , and messengers of satan sent to buffet them , a little matter will puss us up ; and therefore it is that the apostle admonisheth , that he that thinketh he standeth , should take ( special ) heed lest he fall . for by how much the more confident any man is in his own strength , by so much the more likely he is to fall : and by how much the more severe , rigorous , censorious , or uncharitable , any man is in judging of others ; by so much the more likely and sure he is so to fall himself , as to be justly culpable of the same , or worse then those whom he judged , condemned and censured . and therefore it is , that christ himself hath admonished us , judg not , that you be not judged , mat. 7. 1 , 2 , &c. rom. 2. 1 , to the end . chap. 7. and chap. 14. and should not they that are strong bear the infirmities of the weak , but they must please themselves ? should not every one of us please his neighbor in that which is good to edification , as christ himself also did ? rom. 15. 1 , 2 , 3. and chap. 14. and 1 cor. 16. 14. is it not the advice even of the holy ghost ? is it not the will of our heavenly father , that we should study the things that make for peace , and that might provoke unto love ? not unto wrath , nor to enmity nor hatred , but that which is the end of the commandment , and the very life and strength of all community , and of the commonwealth ; yea , the happiness and felicity of all kingdoms , yea governments , whatsoever , civil or ecclesiastical , and the subjects thereof . and it is the onely , or at least the chief sign of the dwelling of god , either in or amongst us : if we love one another , god dwelleth in us , and his love is perfect in us ; for god is love , and he that dwelleth in love , dwelleth in god , and god in him , 1 joh. 4. 12 , 16 , 20 , 21. and not onely so , but it is a token of his blessing likewise , for there the lord commandeth the blessing , yea , even permanent blessing , and that the chief of all , to wit , [ life ] for evermore , that is to say , where there is unity of brethren , and that they dwell so together , psa . 133. and continue in their love . and though it be true that in some good measure the spirit of life from god is already entred into the two witnesses , and they are creeping up to stand upon their feet ; so that great fear is ( in measure ) faln upon them that saw ( and insulted over ) them , as rev. 11. 10 , 11. yet , let us never expect the approbation of god , and to be called up to heaven , nor to ascend in a cloud to such eminent respect in the [ church universal ] which is meant by [ heaven ] vers . 12. till faith and love , which are the two proper and essential [ witnesses ] that are here meant , be inspired into us by the spirit of life from god , and shall raise and advance us , who are but the subjects in whom they recide , and who are but the instruments in whom they act , as a visible express of their invisible power and nature , &c. for the glory of god , and the terror and amazement of all his adversaties : for it is by faith , if we prevail with god , or do any thing worthy of respect with him , or in the sight of men , as heb. 11. and faith worketh by love ; and he that beleeveth hath the witness in himself : see 1 john 4. 7 , 8. so that if these two witnesses be inspired into us , and we be acted by them , it will be indeed to the terror and amazement of all our enemies , that are enemies of god. and there shall be such an earthquake in the same hour as shall affright a remnant , who shall give glory to the god of heaven ; and we shall bear a part in that triumphant song , vers . 15. to 18. and therefore edifying one another in faith and love , which are in christ jesus , ought to be the end and chief endeavor of all our business in church affairs , as it is the end of the whole law , and as i hope in god it shall be mine , who am , your brother in the lord jesus , ellis bradshaw . the contents . containing by way of preambulation , the grounds and rules , according to which the following discourse is held forth , drawn from the end of the commandment , which is love out of a pure heart , and a good conscience , and of faith unfeigned . pag. 1. 2. 3. 1. first , shewing the end of the commandment to be better in value , and more to esteemed then the means to accomplish it , and therefore ought to be chiesly eyed in all the way that leadeth thereunto . 2. secondly , the illustration and application of the foresaid end of the commandment , prescribed as foure rules , to try all laws , arguments , doctrines , & motives by , ●hether they lead properly to the end of the commandment , yea or no , that so we might embrace , or avoid them as we ought to do . pag. 4. 5. 6. 7. 3. thirdly , four grounds and arguments drawn from scripture , as intending , and tending to a reconciliation of the churches of god , in respect of the government and discipline there of , pa. 7. 1. the first from the lawfulness of chastity or marriage . pag. 8. 9. 2. the second from the lawfulness of community of goods , amongst such who can so agree , or the claiming of propriety amongst such who cannot . pag. 9. 10. 3. the third from the lawfulness of fasting , and prayer ; or of eating and drinking . pag. 10. 11. 4. and the fourth from the lawfulness of such , who think they ought , of being of the strictest sect of the true religion , such as were the pharisecs , or one more remisse , such as was the scribes . pag. 12. intending chiefly hereby to clear , that no man ought to blame anoother , for being more strict and conscientious , then he himself 〈◊〉 , or it may be [ needs ] or ought to be ; his calling of god , not ingaging him to it , as it doth the other , being bound in spirit to the quite contrary , and in conscience both . pag. 12. and one the other part , that those that are stricter ought not to blame such as are more remiss in some respects ; because for ought they know , they are so ingaged , and called of god , and either bound in conscience , or bound in spirit , within their own sphere . pag 12. conseq . the consequence where of being to this purpose , that they ought not therefore to compel each other , unto conformity , either to the strictness of the one , or the remisness of the other : proving that the magistrate ought to tollerate , or suffer both , and not to ingage them one against the other . pag. 12. 4. fourthly , the application of the aforesaid grounds , and arguments to the matter in hand ; to wit , to the churches , and the government thereof . pag. 13. 14. 15. 5. fiftly , first the application of the aforesaid grounds and conclusions by way of just reproofe unto both parties , because they do not agree , and live , and love , and carry as brethren . pag. 15. for which end the rule of charity is proposed , and a little proscsecuted pag. 16. 17. 18. 2. the punctual application of the precedent conclusions are briefly asserted ; first to the one , and secondly to the other , and a general consequence concluded thence . pag. 19. 6. an objection proposed and answered at large ; to wit , that seeing presbyteries plead that independents rules and ways of discipline , are not more strict , but more remisse , and loose in many respects , giving way for liberty of all religious without controule by the civil state , as so they speak of them : pag. 19. it is answered at large , that the rules and principles , according to which they engage to act , are manifestly stricter , and lawfully too , in divers particulars , which are held forth in several assertions , wherein likewise they are engaged , in duty and conscience , so to do : though it is not denyed , but many presbyterians are engaged in conscience to do the contrary , and are fully perswaded that they ought so to do for the time present . p. 20. 1. it is asserted , that they are justly stricter with whom they do incorporate and joyn themselves in church policy , because that , so far forth as their joyning together hath respect to the policy and government of the church , no church can be too strict . pag. 20. though , in other respects , they ought to joyn according to the rule of charity , and not of certainty , as in administration of the word and sacraments , as 1 cor. 16. 14. chap. 13. & chap. 10. 32 , 33. 2. it is asserted , that ( for the same ends , and reasons , and respects , alledged in the former ) they are justly strict and conscientious , and teach it as a duty , that all that are found , and known to be men of approved fidelity , within convenient bounds , should thus incorporate and joyn themselves ; and to engage themselves in covenant unto god , for better security and deeper engagement unto all brotherly and christian duties , and to deal impartially in all such business , as concerns them all , for the glory of god , and the churches good ; and to be wise as serpents , though innocent as doves . p. 21 , 22. 3. it is asserted , and proved at large , that the principles of independents are stricter , and neerer to the scripture rules , for edifying of the church , in that they do not limit the holy one of israel to speak in publique by the learned onely . p. 22 to 47 for proving whereof , 1. it is asserted from 1 cor. 12. 7 , to 12. that naturally and manifestly flows from hence ; that to whomsoever the manifestation of the spirit is given , it is given to such to profit withall . pag. 23. 2. it is proved against an objection to the contrary , that such who have the spirit of god , and are spiritualiz'd thereby , may discern all things , yea , the deep things of god , as 1 cor. 2. 10. 15. yea , though they be unlearned in the tongues ; and that the manifestations of the spirit may be evident and demonstrable , even in these our days , to such who are spiritual , though not unto others , as vers . 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. pag. 23. 24. 3. the particular gifts , or notes , or qualifications , or operations , or administrations , are the chief of them produced from sacred scripture , whereby the manifestation of the spirit of god , and of power , &c. may be evident and demonstrable in such as are not of those that are learned in the tongues , nor graduates in the schools , even in these our days , yea , and that in such who do no miracles . pag. 24. 4. it is asserted and proved against an objection , that these particular gifts and administrations , which are reckoned up by the apostle paul , cannot be so counterfeited by the carnal , but they may easily be discerned by those that are spiritual p. 24 , 25. and to that purpose there is divers notes from sacred scripture , which ( being found in any ) do prove for certain , and do evidently demonstrate , that it is indeed even the spirit of god that speaketh in them , yea though they do no miracles . pag. 25. 1. the first from john 7. 18. ibid. 2. from john 10. 10. 28. pag. 26. 3. from james 1. 17 , 18. ibid. 4. from john 16. 8. ibid. 5. from 1 cor. 4. 5. & chap. 14. 24 , 25. ibid. 6. from john 3. 21. ibid. 7. from phil. 2. 15 , 16. & ephes . 5. 13 , 14. ibid. but that the chiefest of all these particulars , or any that can be exhibited , is a clear understanding and knowledg of god , and of the sacred scriptures , and the secrets thereof , and of the secrets and mysteries of his sacred kingdom : because without all controversie , great is the mysterie of godliness , as the apostle saith , col. 1. 26. 27 , 28. rom. 16. 25. ephes . 3. 9. 2 tim. 1. 10. titus 1. 2. pag. 27. to which a reason is rendred , drawn from the contrary , luke 8. 10. mark 4. 33 , 34. mat. 13. ibid. and a consequence gathered , backed with 1 cor. 4. 5. & matth. 10. 19. ibid. and an objection answered , to satisfie such who count it immodesty . pag. 28. 1. and another to satisfie such who object , that speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , is not properly to prophecy , because prophecying is foreshewing of things to come ; which is fully answered , and clearly vindicated , that it is properly prophecying , as the apostle asserteth it from heb. 11. 1. & john 10. 10. & 1 john 5. 11 , 12 , 13. 1 cor. 14. 1 , 3 , 4. and the chief of all for the perfecting of the saints , and for the work of the ministry , and for the edification of the body of christ , ephes . 4. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. pag. 29. 2. and secondly , that it is a more present evidence and demonstration of the spirit then shewing of things to come , as agabus did ; for till the things be come , they do not manifest the spirit of god. pag. 29 , 30. 3. and thirdly , the danger is shewed to those that despise , or resist , and disparage these things or ways , &c. or them that use them ; or to any authority that will not suffer it , and give liberty to all them , whose spirit god hath raised , to build up the churches in their most holy faith , lest wrath be upon them from the lord , as ezra 1. 5 , 6. & chap. 13. 16 , 23. & chap. 8. 22 , 23. & psal . 2. pag. 31. 32 , 33. yea , that it is matter of dangerous consequence , either to act , or comply with such ; shew'd by many reasons , and all objections answered fully , which are too many , and too large to abreviate . pag. 47. 4 assertion is , concerning their independency , in respect of other churches , whiles they do well , as rom. 13. 3 , 4. & 1 pet. 3. to the 23. & chap. 4. 1 , 2. & 12. with the reasons that necessarily engage them so to stand , which are unanswerable . pag. 47. to 53. 5 assertion is , concerning their maintaining the power , and kingdom , and supremacy of christ ; in which it is shewed , that they necessarily assume democracy to maintain his monarchy against antichristian tyranny and usurpation . pag. 53. to 56. 6 assertion is , that they are justly stricter in keeping themselves within their own sphere , in not judging those that are without in the apostles sense , 1 cor. 5. 12. in a spiritual way , as mat. 18. 15. to 21. pag. 56. 57 , 58. having done with the presbyterians for the time present , here is three grand particulars instanced in against the independents , and punctually argued from scripture grounds . 1. first , concerning ordination of ministers , and other officers . pag. 58. to 63. 2. secondly , concerning the authoritative acting of an assembly of churches in the name of god , and the lord jesus christ , wherein is proved , that withdrawing of communion is not sufficient , but they ought to proceed even to excommunication , yea even to execration , if their sin so deserve , as for toleration of idolatry , blasphemy , and such haynous sins in their church-members or officers . pag. 63. to 68. 3. thirdly , concerning their strictness in tryal of all whom they admit to partake of the sacraments , which is named pag. 68. but prosecuted and argued against them from pag. 72. to the end of the book . but betwixt pag. 68. and pag. 72. the authors apprehensions , partly abreviating what hath formerly been said , are proposed briefly by way of result ; and then objections answered concerning this main difference about admission to the sacraments , and other particulars before named , to the end of the book . forasmuch as the author doth in all things hold forth charity , which is the bond of perfectness , col. 3. 14. and that we are bound to prove all things , hold fast that which is good , 1 thes . 5. 21. therefore , i say unto the ensuing treatise , imprimatur theodore jennings . august 9. 1649. an husbandmans harrow to pull down the ridges of the presbyteriall government , and to smooth a little the independent ; that both they and others might walk together upon plaine scripture grounds without stumbling on the ridgeness of either or both . the end of a thing ( saith wise solomon ) is better then the beginning thereof . therefore it follows , that the end of a thing ought chiefly to be eyed as a mark to shoot at , yea , as the complement , and perfection of all endeavours , and means , and waies to attain such end . and so likewise the apostle paul , by the spirit of god , giveth us clearely to understand , that the end of the commandement is love , out of a pure heart , and a good conscience , and faith unfained , 1 tim. 1. 5. from which we may justly argue ; that if love , &c. be the end of the commandement : and if the end be better , then the means , to attain it . cons . then the means for the accomplishment , ( and that should lead unto , or acquire such an end , ) ought not to be pleaded , or set against ; nor valued and esteemed above the end . reas . for then it utterly frustrates , and makes the meanes void , if we rob or spoile it of its proper end ; and so both end and means are utterly vain . instan . as for instance he that pleadeth the law against justice or legality of proceedings in matter of state , against the good , and peace , and safety of the people . he pleadeth against both the law , and justice , and against the good and safety of the people : and not only so , but he disparageth the law , and legall proceedings . as if they intended not , or at least , were not able to attaine their end , but were made on purpose to obstruct such justice , as ought to be their end , for which they are made . and though it is true , that the law of god , being of absolute perfection , can never properly be so pleaded ; yet unjustly , and improperly , it both may , and is ; though it ought not so to be , but the quite contrary , as hath been said . but how much more ought the lawes of men , ( being not absolutely perfect , nor sufficently wise to attain their end ) never to be pleaded ; but with chief reference , and cleare respect to the end thereof . so that he that objects , or pleads them at all ; should hold forth with them , even the end it self ; and should make it manifest , how the law he pleadeth , tendeth as a means , to acquire unto , or bring about such end : lest he plead the law against justice , as some have done ; though deeply learned in the laws of the land ; endangering thereby , to establish arbitrary , tyrannicall power , greater then before : concerning which , there is enough already , and at large exprest to the whole kingdom . only this i add , that i cannot but wonder , how any rationall man can ever desire such enslaving power ; or delight to use it , if he had it granted , considering 1. first , they can never rationally , nor justly expect , nor be certainly assured , of the cordial affection of any such subjects , who are but subjected by arbitrary , cruel and tyrannical power . for all subjection , that is but meerly enforc'd , is evidently clear , to be defective in love . 2. secondly all meer force by power , &c. is so far short of provoking unto love , or any cordial affection , or honor indeed ; as that it dis-ingageth and repels the affection , and force of love , and of all proper uniting principles ; and quite diverteth them into enmity and hatred , and dis-esteem : especially , in case , when the honor and service which is forc'd unto , is not just and proper ; but undue , unsuitable , and more then just , and without desert . 3. thirdly , as the scripture speaks , for a man to seek his own glory , is not glory , no , it is his shame ; for when pride commeth , then cometh shame : and it is not only lawful but even the bounden duty of them that love the lord , to hate evil , as pride , and arrogancie , and the evill way . and even the mouth that speaketh proud things , they ought to hate . 4. fourthly , what honor is it , or what glory , or renown , for a man to rule and have the command ; yea , or to sway a scepter over a kingdom of slaves ? were it not his shame amongst kingdoms of men ? and what renown could he possibly get in time of wars , by leading forth his slaves to battel , to engage them in service against armies of men ? would they not cowardly desert him , and leave him naked , rather then lose their lives , which are alwaies deare unto slavish men ? they are alwaies so ignoble , and of such timorous spirits , in case of danger . and then also , in regard they are not ingaged , nor bound cordially unto him , through personall love , and of their voluntary accord , but enslav'd through force ; they will not care , if they find an opportunity for their owne safety , and release from him , if they sell him into the hands of their greatest enemies , or lay violent hands on his person themselves , as it often is ; yea , and for the most part , there is few tyrants that escape murther , or just execution , but it is their end . by the just judgement of the merciful god , who loveth mercy , but hateth cruelty , wrong , and tyranny , and will avenge it , though justice faile in the hands of men , one time or other , look isai . 14. 18 , 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23. look also vers . 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17. for the same measure , that men mete unto others ; the same shall be measured unto them again . but why should i wonder , to see us all prone to be ambitious , proud , haughty ; seeing we are not fully and throughly rational , but in a great measure lead with sensuality . but were we throughly rational , how could we be proud , that are dust and ashes , and know our selves such , and that we are but mortal ? seeing he alone , who is the only potentate , the king of kings , and lord of lords , hath immortality , and dwelleth in light which is inaccessible , which no man can approach unto , whom no man hath seen , nor can see ; to whom alone be ascribed , honour and power everlasting , amen , amen . but thus much briefly , by way of introduction , or preambulation , to what i chiefly intend to fall upon , as of all points most meet and necessary , to be insisted on in these contentious , quarrellous , and perillous times : i mean , in regard of that great dissention , that is now amongst us , about the churches government , and discipline , &c. concerning which , i shall endeavour , through the grace of god , to keep close to the principles that i have premised , and that as briefly as may be . and shall cast in also even this poor mite into the churches treasury , and that by way of proposal , as ayming chiefely at the proper end , which is the end of the commandement , as hath been said . for without all controversie , that which is the end of all the commandements , should be all our ends , in all our endeavours , and undertakings . but the undoubted end of all the commandements , is doubtless , [ love ] out of a pure heart , and good conscience , and faith unfeigned . this therefore being the proper end ; i shall hold it forth in all the means , that i shall propose , from the law of god ; and shall carry it along in my own intention ; and also make it manifest , as much as possible , how such meanes , properly tendeth to atchieve that end ; and how useful and necessary such means is , to attain there unto , the lord assisting : who is able to do it , and to make it clear . 1. and first then , because it do appeare to be against [ love ] to god above all , and our neighbours as our selves . it is worthy to be rejected ; for even the whole law is contained in this ; yea , what ever it be that is against love , is against god ; for god is love , and love cometh of god ; and is shed abroad in our hearts by the holy ghost ; and if we be partakers of this divine love which is shed in our hearts , by the holy ghost ; we are made partakers of the godly nature ; and it is of all others , the first and chiefest of those fruits of the spirit , and the most essentiall , 1 joh. 4. 7 , 8 , 12 , 13 , 16 , 17. and so is a clear evidence , that god dwelleth in us , and we in him ; for the love of god is essentially of god , such love , i meane as cometh of god. 2. and secondly , if it do appear to be against this love , out of a pure heart ; it is also worthy to be rejected ; for what ever law , doctrine , or argument shall be proposed , to oblige men to in purity , either in heart , or life , it is without all controversie against the law of god ; for blessed are the pure in heart , for they shall see god , and men ought to keep themselves pure , mat. 5. 8. 1 tim. 5. 22. especially in heart , for thereout cometh the issues of life . 3. thirdly , if it be propos'd against a good conscience , it is worthy to be rejected , as not included in the law of god. for all laws , doctrines , or arguments , whatsoever they are that would ingage us against a good conscience , manifestly grounded on the word of god , and of sound doctrine , that cannot be reproved ; we ought to reject them , and yeeld no obedience , nor approbation thereunto , either in obedience unto men , or to please them , &c. for we must not be men pleasers , nor servants of men , but obey god rather then men ; and ought to love , and therefore serve , and honor , and please him , rather then men . for all the men in the whole universe , cannot by any meanes give men liberty of conscience to commit sinne ; if their conscience tell them , and be convinced from the law of god , that they ought not to do it , as rom. 2. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. but their consciences , will accuse , and condemne them also ; and that in the day of judgement , when god shall judge the secrets of men , by jesus christ , according to the gospel . therefore , as they cannot properly give men liberty of conscince , no more then save , and exempt men from punishment due for their sinnes against conscience ; they ought not to binde , or engage men to obedience unto any law , against a good conscience , rightly grounded on the law of god , as hath been said ; but should give men libertie , to be as strict and severe , and as carefull , and watchful , and as inquisitive is they please , how to keep a good conscience , voyd of offence both to god and men . 4. fourthly , if any law , or argument , or motion whatsoever , shall be made against faith ; to wit , unfaigned faith , as that we should not beleeve or trust in god , but in something else ; or that we should beleeve , or put hope and confidence in any thing else ; or that we should not beleeve whatsoever he saith , or proposeth to us in his sacred word , or biddeth us beleeve , &c. we ought to reject it ; yea , though all the men and churches in the world , would ingage us to beleeve , what they assert and resolve upon , as being most able , because wise and learned ; and because a multitude of counsellors to determine and resolve , what ought to be beleeved in such a case . yet if we certainly know , that the word of god affirmeth the contrary ; we ought to beleeve it , and to reject their resolves , and counsels and assertions , be they what they will ; and must not conform , nor comply with them , nor approve the same . but if an angel from heaven , or the whole world being become an arrian , should decree , or teach us , the arrian heresie , we should let him be accursed ; and so also for any other doctrine , then may be made manifest , as it ought to be , from sacred scripture . there is a time spoken of zach. 13. when men shall be so zealous against false prophets , and false prophesying , that a mans father and his mother that begat him , shall say unto him , thou shalt not live ; for thou speakest lyes in the name of the lord ; and his father and his mother , that begat him , shall thrust him through , when he prophesie , zach. 13. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. we must therefore resolve , to let god be true , and every man a lyar , and therefore rather to beleeve him , then all , and every , or any man in the whole world . and also we must and ought to draw neer unto god , in full assurance of faith , not casting away our confidence in god , which hath great recompence of reward ; for faith in god is of all other graces , love excepted , the most chief and principal , and the most essential ; for it is said of faith and love , that they are in christ jesus ; yea , though now in heaven . it is not said , that they were in christ ▪ to wit , when he was on earth , but that they are in christ jesus ; for when the apostle writ so of him , he was ascended already into heaven ; yea , and though he be in heaven , yet he is said to dwel in mens hearts by faith. and therefore such faith may well be called a precious faith , being so properly essential to the spirit of christ ; as that where faith dwelleth , christ also dwelleth properly and essentially , even by his holy spirit : for faith and love , which are in christ jesus , are not onely fruits , but they are essentiall witnesses of his holy spirit abiding in us : he that beleeveth ( saith the apostle ) hath the witnesse in himself : 1 joh. 5. 10. and so he that loveth , it is also a witness that he is born of god , and knoweth god , chap. 4. 7. and that he also dwelleth in us , vers . 12. and that he hath given us of his spirit , vers . 13. and so that we are made partakers of the godly nature , 2 pet. 1. 4. and have in some measure , even the mind of christ , and the spirit of christ , though yet but in measure , because of our finite capacities : whereas in christ , even the fulness of the godhead dwelleth bodily , or rather essentially . therefore it follows , that what ever arguments , or laws , or doctrines , make against faith , or that but tend to the weakning thereof , or that would hinder our edifying , and being built up in faith and love , which are in christ jesus ; should utterly be rejected , as ungodly , unjust , untrue , opposite , and contradictory to the law of god , and to his sacred word , which is one , and cannot be broken , nor alleged properly for such an end ; and therefore these foure rules may stand as cautions , that we admit not any thing , contrary hereunto ; though it should be urged , and presented to us , or proposed , or commanded , in the name of god ; or as being grounded on his sacred word : for it it crosse , or oppose , or would deprive us , or make void to us this end of the commandement , to wit , love out of a pure heart , and good conscience , and faith unfained ; it is false , and wicked , and that which will not stand with the law it self , and therefore ought to be rejected of all good men : and therefore with full purpose to keep to these rules , as the end also of what i do intend , i shall further propose these ensuing grounds and arguments , both as intending and tending to a reconciliation , and full agreement of the church of god , in respect of government , and the discipline thereof , as hereafter follows . 1 ground is , that it is lawful , yea , and the bounden duty of some men , and of some women , to be more abstenious from things lawful in themselves , and to bind themselves to a stricter discipline then others need to engage themselves , or be bound unto , or be absteni●us from . reas . for it is the duty of some men , and of some women , to make themselves chaste for the kingdom of heavens sake , mat. 19 ●● . & 1 cor. 7. for the kingdom of heavens sake , that is to say , that they might be more free , both from the cares of this life , and from all carnal engagements , or disturbances , or distractions , and inducements whatsoever ; that might either trouble , or molest them , or engage their mindes , or withdraw their affections , or hinder their devotions , both of bodies and spirits , in respect of god. but that they might fully consecrate , and devote themselves , both soules and bodies , to the sacred government of his grace and spirit ; that the kingdom of god , by his grace and spirit , might have full scope and dominion in them , both of their soules and bodies ; and that they might more freely attend , and waite on the lord , without separation , or without disturbance , or cumber , or distraction , by any meanes : but might glorifie god both in their bodies and spirits : and that with all their hearts , with all their souls , with all their minds , and with all their strength , as so the law of god requires they should . for this is the measure of our love to god , that the law requires , and that christ exemplified , and commanded likewise , that he that can receive this , should receive it . and it is also the apostle pauls advice , by the spirit of god , as better for such , who can abstain that they should not marry , if they had power over their own wills ; that is to say , had they gift of continency , as matth. 19. 10 , 11. 1 cor. 7. 37 , 38 , 39. 40. and this also the apostle exemplified , and wished that all men were even as he himself in that particular . and thus therefore , i hope that no man will deny , but that it were better for some , both men and women ; such especially , who have the gift of continencie , to abstain from marriage , and make themselves chaste , for the kingdom of heavens sake , but that they may thus doe , it is good for such not to touch a woman , as 1 cor. 7. 1. and yet for all this , marriage is honourable amongst all men , and is ordained of god , and some are called of god to that estate ; and do in that estate , live a holy and a blameless life . enoch walked with god , after he begat methuselah , three hundred years , and begat sons and daughters , gen. 22. 24. of whom it was witnessed , that he had pleased god , and that he was therefore translated , that he should not see death , hebr. 11. 5. and it was lawfull for peter to lead about a wife , a sister , and so for the brethren of the lord , and cephas . and zachary and elizabeth were both righteous before the god , walking in the commandements , and ordinances of the lord blameless , as luke 1. 5 , 6. and david was a man after gods own heart , save in the matter of vriah : and yet had many wives , and concubines : and adam in innocency , before he sinned , had his wife , and was commanded to be fruitfull , and multiply , and replenish the earth , &c. and how else should men be multiplied , and succeed , &c. but by means of procreation , as god hath ordained , and appointed , and called men ; as doubtless , he hath , some after this manner , and some after that : for it were a wicked antichristian doctrine , to forbid to marry , or to command to abstaine from meats , which god hath commanded , to be received with thanks-giving , 1 tim. 4. 3 , 4 , 5. but such who are so called , and inclin'd for marriage , are not very suitable for consociation with such-as make themselves chaste , nor they for them , in these respects . 2. and secondly , it is lawful for some , to give all their goods unto the poor , and to give their bodies to be burned , 1 cor. 13. 3. and in case , when called of god , and required so to do , it is their duty . for the young man in the gospel , ought to have done so , as christ advised him , that he might be perfect . and it had been good for him so to have done ; for in consideration thereof , he might have had treasure in heaven , and have followed christ , math. 19. 21. and also , whosoever will save his life , ( when christ calleth him to part with it ) shall lose it ; but whosoever shall lose it for his sake , shall finde it , math. 16. 24 , 25 , 26. and math. 10. 32 , 33 , 34 , 35 , 36 , 37 , 38 , 39. and it is lawfull for such , who are of one heart , and of one soul , to have all things common , and not to title , or claime any thing , that any of such possesseth as his own , acts 4. 32. but such , amongst such , as are possessors of lands , may lawfully sell them , and bring the price thereof , and lay it down at the ministers feet ; that distribution may be made unto every man , ( amongst them ) according as he hath need ; as vers . 34. 35. 37. but this community is only proper amongst such as are of one heart . and yet for all this , he that provideth not for his own , especially them of his houshold , he is worse then an infidel . and riches are given to some , as great blessings ; as to abraham , and david , and salomon , and joab , &c. and it is a more blessed things to be a giver , then a receiver . and men have a true and just propertie in their own goods , or estates , as acts 5. 4. and it is in their own power , neither ought any to be compelled to such community of goods , and estates ; nor to distribute and communicate , but as they doe it freely , of their own voluntary minds without grudging , or any impulsion , as of necessity , either to the poor , or to the ministery , as gal. 6. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. and 2 cor. 9. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , &c. and the apostle moved them ; not as speaking by commandement , but by reason of the forwardness of others , and the example of christ , who being rich , for their sakes became poor ; that they through his poverty might be rich , as chap. 8. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. and that supplying each others , there might be equallity , as vers . 14. 15. as doubtless , to such who are mutually affected , it is no more , but equal , and therefore a duty , but otherwise not , but were a sin . 3. it is lawful for a man to beat down his body , and to bring it in subjection , by fasting , and by labour and travaile night and day , as 2 cor. 11. 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , &c. it is not unlawfull to fast often ; yea , twice in the week , like the scribes and pharisees . yea , it is lawful for man and wife to defrande one another , with consent , for a time ; that they may give themselves unto fasting and prayer , so they come together again ; that satan tempt them not , for their incontinency , as 1 cor. 7. 5. and they that do thus , doubtless may see cause for it , why they should fast ( sometimes ) when they give themselves unto prayer . as first , because when the stomack is empty , the whole strength of the soul , and spirit , is set at liberty ; ( it not being bent and imployed in digestion of meat . ) that with full bent of all the powers , and faculties , both of soul and body , they may strive and wrestle with god in prayer , and be the more faithfull and confident ; and the more capable and apprehensive of spiritual understanding : for when the stomach is burthened and cloyed with meat , the strength of the spirit is necessarily engaged , for digestion of the same ; and makes the minde drowsie , and dull , and the more uncapable , and unfit for communion and fellowship with god , and for the presence and power of his holy spirit , working therein , and acting , and exercising , and inlarging the same , according to his will ; making request for the saints , according to the will of god , even with sight , and groans , that canned be expressed . it is therefore meet , upon serious occasions , of seeking unto god , that we fast and pray , with fulness of devotion , and fervencie of spirit , if we would obtain . and secondly , in regard that some things are not attainable ; some kind of devils not cast out , but by fasting and prayer , mar. 9. 29. which cleerly implies , that fasting and prayer jointly , are more powerfull and prevalent with god , then when severed , as prayer only . and yet for all this , it was lawful for peter , and the rest of the apostles to eat and drink , &c. and who could eat , or who else could hasten unto outward things , more then wise salomon , who seriously concludes ; that there is nothing better for a man , then that he should eat and drink , and he should make his soul to enjoy the fruit of his labour ; and this he saw , that it was of the hand of god. for god giveth to a man that is good in his sight , wisdom , and knowledge , and joy ; but to the sinner , he giveth travaile ; to gather , and to heap up , that he may give to him , that is good before god , eccles . 2. 24 , 25 , 26. and the lord jesus , even christ himselfe , as his own words do plainly declare ; that contrary to the practice of john the baptist , he the son of man came eating , and drinking , eating bread , and drinking wine ; insomuch that they said of him , behold a gluttenous man , and a wine-bibber , a friend of publicans and sinners , luke 7. 34. and the disciples of john fasted often , but his disciples fasted not whiles he was with them . and therefore it follows ; that as there is diversities of gifts , and of administrations , and operations given out by the self same spirit , dividing to every man severally as he will. even so accordingly , men are called of god , one after this manner , and another after that ; and have so also their proper gifts of god , as 1 cor. 7. 7. and as god hath distributed to every man , as the lord hath called every one , so he ought to walk , for so the apostle ordained in all churches , as vers . 17. and therefore it follows , that it must not be expected , that every man should be alike absteneous from the things of this life ; not bind themselves to so strict a discipline , both over their bodies and minds , &c. as some others , both will , and can , and ought , to doe . 4. the apostle paul , after the most strict sect of the jewish religion , he lived a pharisee ; which clearly implies , that at least , there were three that were several sects of the jewish religion ; of which the pharisees were the strictest ; and yet they were all religious men , and of the true religion too : there were scribes , and pharisees , and saduces , and all religious and zealous also in their own wayes , and according to their own traditions , and doctrines ; though they something differed amongst themselves ; yet they were all tolerated by the civil state ; and the civil state was not reprehended either by john the baptist , or by christ himself , for such toleration : but their false doctrines , and covetousness , and hypocrisie , were reproved , and sharply too . 1. consequence , and therefore it follows , that all ought not to be compell'd to engage themselves , to so strict , and holy , and severe a discipline , as ought to be tolerated , and practised by others who can embrace , and freely engage to endure the same , considering these grounds before named . 2. and secondly it follows , that a stricter discipline ought to be tolerated by the civil magistrate ; that such who please , and can freely accord , to engage themselves to the exercise thereof , ( amongst themselves ) may have liberty to doe it : provided they offer not to inforce their way . then ought to be imposed , or made as a general , and binding rule , or way of government , to which all must necessarily be ingaged in or bound unto . reason . for it is the duty of some men , as hath been said , to bind themselves to a stricter discipline then others need , or ought to doe . the one being qualified , through the grace of god , and fitted for it ; and so manifestly ingaged and called of god , so to doe : but the other not qualified ; nor so disposed , through the grace of god , are manifestly , engaged , and called of god , to the quite contrary , as in these foure instances , above written . 1. concerning chastity or marriage . 2. concerning community of goods , or claiming of propriety . 3. concerning fasting , or eating and drinking . 4. concerning being of the strictest sect of the true religion , such as was the pharsees ; or of one more remiss , such as was the scribes . but it will be demanded , how these may be applicable to the matter in hand ? i answer , that as the case stands betwixt man and man in these particulars ; so it doth also betwixt church and church : for they are all governed by the same law , and by the same spirit , and the case is the same in every respect ▪ 1. for such who make themselves chaste for the kingdom of heavens sake , it is good for such not to touch a woman , as 1 cor. 7. 1. and therefore they ought to be carefull how they carry themselves in such respects . and it is not lawful for such to marry , if they so resolve , and know they have power over their own wills , as hath beer said before . even so a church being rightly constituted , and having divine power , and authority given her , through faith in god , and the lord jesus christ : and that desires to be presented , as a chaste virgin onely unto christ , and to be governed by him . it is not lawful , for such a church , or at least , not good for her , to binde her selfe , to be subject to the vote , or power and jurisdiction of other churches that are not constituted as a chaste virgin onely unto christ ; and to be ruled by him , and by his word and spirit . or if they be not resolved , to be as chast as she , and as fully subject to the rules , and laws , and waies of christ , but think they ought to consociate with such , who are more loose in their doctrine , and government , and ways , &c. which as yet she cannot resolve to do , upon any principles she hath yet received from christ her head . and there is a resemblance nto a little remarkable , held forth to us by the holy ghost , betwixt the husband and wife , and christ and his church , ephes . 5. 22. &c. both of them , being bound to be subject alike , though yet in the lord. and as it is so , that there is cause of jealousie , that some women will not continue chaste . so there is cause of jealousie , that some churches will not be espoused unto one husband : that they may be presented , as a chaste virgin to christ ; but their minds will be corrupted from the simplicity that is in christ , as 2 cor. 11. 2 , 3 , 4. secondly , as it is with a man , as hath been said , so it is with a church , in the second particular : for , if a particular church shall amongst themselves , being of one heart , and of one minde , have all things common , and none of them claime propriety of goods , as meerly his own ; but that they may be distributed , as every one hath need . as so it is lawful , if they can so agree , and do it freely without grudging , or repining : yet it were unlawful , and a folly , and madness , to joyne themselves so in community of goods , to such in whom they could not expect the like community , they being quit of a contrary minde , and heart , &c. like ananias and saphirah , covetous and hypocritical , and only ayming at carnal ends . thirdly , and so likewise , as it lawful for a particular man , to give themselves much unto fasting and prayer , as hath been said . even so it is likewise , for a particular church , if they so agree amongst themselves , to give themselves much unto fasting and payer , as in their apprehension , they shall think they have cause ; for the good of their soules , in general or particular . where it may be on the contrary , some other churches , in their apprehensions , have more cause of thankfulness ; finding for the present , that the bridegroom is with them . as so for this reason , the disciples of christ fasted not , whereas the disciples of john fasted often . and why then , should churches of different judgments , in these respects , be bound by authority , all to rejoyce , or all to mourn , and fast , and pray , at the same times , and no more frequently ; but as all can agree , so to humble themselves . and how should it chuse , but ingage men to hypocrisie , save only in case of some general judgment , of which we are certain , that all are sencible and affected with it . and fourthly , and lastly , as it is lawful for a particular man , to be of the strictest sect of the true religion , such as were the pharisees . so it is lawful for a particular church , to be of the strictest way , in respect of government , doctrine , and discipline , that can be devised , or made good from scripture , as lawful , &c. and the magistrate ought not to enforce her , to conform unto any churches , that are more remisse and loose , or careless , or not so strict , or careful , and conscientious , as they ought to be . though i will not deny , but the magistrate ought to tollerate , such who think they ought not to be so strict , as well as the other . for as all good men whose general bent , is the glory of god ; cannot attain such measures , or degrees of grace , and wisdom , as of faith and holiness , and of zeal , &c. one as another . even so all churches , though they be true churches , cannot possibly attain , to be so rightly constituted , and so severe , and strict , in discipline , and government , and doctrine , &c. as others can , though the stricter , the better , in some respect , as i shall hereafter shew ; though in some things to be over strict is a foule fault . the one conceiving , that they ought to proceed , according to the rule of charity , and the other of certainty . the one expecting , but faith historical , in their admissions ; but the other searching , for faith justifying , such as appeares by works , in all such whom they doe approve . as there is strong arguments , that might easily be produced on both patties , even from sacred scripture , that it is not easie to reconcile . i hope , they will not say , that either of them yet , have clearly demonstrated , from sacred scriptures , their owne resolves concerning baptisme : i shall therefore , it may be , propose betwixt them ; something of that . but from these precedent grounds , first , it is clear , that these conclusions , will justly reprove , and , i hope , convince , both the independents , and presbyterians ; in that they do not labour to accord , and love , and strive to live and carry as bretheren , and communicate together in all the ordinances , as bretheren ought , and as occasion serves . but the one striving to enforce conformity to their wayes , and rules , and principles , &c. to which ( in conscience ) they , it may be , are engaged . and the other , blaming , and condemning them , as too remisse , and not so upright and conscientious , nor walking by so just and strict a rule , in constitution , government , and discipline of the congregations , as they ought to do , and as they are resolved to engage themselves , and therefore seek for liberty so to do . by this means they fall at varience , and fall out by the way , and about the way , though they be bretheren , and so doe know , and acknowledge each other . and first then , let them both consider , this falling out by the way , is not ( like ) as they were bretheren , for by this saith christ , all men shall know that ye are my disciples ; if ye love one another . is this like love , which is the end of the commandement , as is before proposed , even thus to bite , and devoure , and destroy one another ? and all because that both parties , but seeing in part , and knowing in part , and understanding in part , are of different judgements . as so they are likely as yet to be in some thing or other , whiles it is so with them , as that they are not perfect , till that which is in part shall be done away . and what then , will they never agree , till they all be perfect ? will they never love , till in every particular , they be of one judgment ? but it will be objected , that men who think themselves in a right way , and others wrong ; and holding forth their arguments from cleare scripture grounds that are sufficient to convince themselves : they are apt to think that the other are obstinate , and that they see , and will not see , nor acknowledge the truth : so that they cannot chuse but be in a great measure out of charity with them : as accounting them perverted , and men that sin , being damned of their own consciences . answ . i answer , that if we can know for certain , after once or twice admonition , that men sinne , being damned of their own consciences , it is a foule thing , such ought to be rejected , tit. 3. 10 , 11. but such must be known to be hereticks , and obstinate , &c. and therefore observe the nature of love in this kind , that we be not censorious , and too too injurious , in judging our bretheren in this kind . for charity , ( saith the apostle ) suffereth long , and is kind : charity envieth not , nor vanteth not it self , nor 〈◊〉 it pufft up : doth not behave it self unseemly ; seeketh not her own , is not easily provoked , thinketh no evill : rejoyceth not in iniquity , but rejoyceth in the truth ; beareth all things , beleeveth all things , hopeth all things , endureth all things , &c. 1 cor. 13. 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. and seeing that all these are natural properties of that love which is the end of the commandment : let us try our selves by all these properties , whether we have behaved , and carried our selves accordingly towards such , before we censure , and let our hearts loose , to reject and oppose , and deal with them as enemies of god. we ought not to hate , nor to deal with such as enemies at all ; but to love , and pitty , and pray for them ; and acknowledge them brethren , and admonish them as brethren , though they seem to walk disorderly , and obey not the word even of god himselfe in some things , 2 thess . 3. 14 , 15. and mat. 5. 44 , 45 , 46 , 47 , 48. though i doe confesse , that if any man love not the lord jesus christ , he ought to be held even in execration , if it manifestly appear . and we ought to contend earnestly for the faith which was once delivered to the saints , jud. 3. and we should stand fast to our christian liberty wherewith christ hath made us free , and not be entangled again with yokes of bondage , nor suffer men to rule over us at their pleasure , according to their own fancies , or arbitrary wills , not submitted to the laws of god ; nor holding to the head , and to the foundation , &c. coloss . 1. 18. and chap. 2. 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , &c. but still always , with due respect to their persons ; as pittying their ignorance , weakness , infirmities , failings , and imperfections that we discover in them . as considering our selves , lest we also be tempted , and that we also have been in like condition , in one particular respect or another ; having been erronious , and misapprehensive , and offensive unto others , in such respects : for who that lives , but if he will examine , he may remember that he hath erred from the truth , in some thing or other : and been reduced and convinced by others ; or by searching of the scriptures have seen our selves ( as of our selves ) subject to all , or to any error . and that we ought to acknowledge , that it is of grace , and the gift of god ; that we are sufficient , or able to know or understand any thing of the things of god. and why then should we be high minded , and not rather fear , least we also fall , or fail , &c. of the grace of god ? or why then should we be too confident , either that we do not , or that we cannot err ? and if we do not expect , that men should think so of us , why are we so angry , that all men are not just on our minds ? and that they will not follow us , nor conforme unto us , just in our wayes ? doth it not imply , that we think of our selves above that which is meet ? to wit , that we cannot erre , and expect that others should thinke so likewise . and what is this lesse then the pope , that antichrist , and the church of rome challenge to themselves ; and by reason thereof exalt themselves above the magistrates , above all that is called god , or that is worshipped ▪ &c. whereas on the contrary part , it is manifest , that the generality of the whole christian world , hath erred iexceedingly : was it not once said , that the whole world was become an arrian ? nay , were not all the opposers of the arrian heresie , in an error likewise , both one and another ? to wit , those that maintained , that the trinity of persons was one substance . for though the trinity of persons be one and the same in essence , yet they are not one substance , for the blessed deity is all essence , as the scripture is clear , exod. 3. 14. i am that i am : to wit , that he [ is , ] is all essence . but no proof can be made from scripture ground ; that the invisible god is any substance at all , but an infinite essence , and not locally circumscriptible , as all substance is : but unlimitably existent ; filling both all place , and every substance , both in heaven and earth , and infinitely beyond them on every side : circumventing all things , and filling all things , even from the very top of the highest heavens , to the middle , and bowels or center of the earth : and yet he himself is not cirumvented , with any thing at all ; no , not with [ place ] it self : in which , as phylosophers speak , all things stand : but is infinite and unlimitable , without circumference , and without center ; the heavens of heavens are not able to containe him , but he filleth all things : as the scripture is clear , and as might evidently and convincingly also be made to appeare to any rational man , by reasons and arguments , drawn from the motion and government of all things , and constant course , and subsistence of the heavens , and of the earth , and waters , and all visible creatures : for who else is the efficient cause of their being , and subsistence , and of their motion , &c. look rom. 1. 18 , 19 , 20 , 21. and psalm . 19. 1 , &c. but if all may erre , and every one hath erred ; and it may be doth erre in some thing or other : then all and every particular man , ought to fear himself , lest he also do erre , and that in such particulars , wherein he thinketh , that he justly opposeth , and condemneth others : and ought to search the scriptures , and to search the meaning of the spirit , even in the scripture it self : and to be sure of that , before he be too confident , and surious in opposition , or judging of others , as hereticks , &c. he that thinketh he standeth , take heed lest he fall . he that thinketh he knoweth any thing , knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know , saith the spirit of god. then we ought therefore to put on charity , which is the bond of perfectness : and not to break off love , but upon sure grounds , that they are enemies of god , whom we so judge , and censure , &c. but for more punctuall applycation of these precedent conclusions unto both parties , to wit , to the independents and presbyterians , i shall briefly assert these cleare consequences from the aforesaid grounds : first to the one , and then to the other . and first then , to the presbyterians i assert as followeth , in behalf of the independents . 1. that it is lawful yea and the bounden duty of some men , to binde themselves to a stricter discipline , then others need or ought to do : the one being quallified , through the grace of god , and fitted for it , and so manifestly ingaged , and called of god so to do , for the time present , whiles they think they ought . 2. to the independents , that the presbyterians not being so qualified , or disposed , or called , through the grace of god ; but manifestly ingaged , to the quite contrary ; and as is it were bound in spirit , within their own sphere , or place , or calling , or way , &c. ought so to continue , whiles they think they ought , till they be convinced from scripture grounds that it is their duty ; and that they are called of god , to a stricter rule , and way of discipline , then they yet do practise ; or can freely embrace , or engage to indure , as witness the foure precedent examples . consiqu . and therefore it followes , that a stricter discipline ought to be tollerated , by the civil state ; that such who please , and can freely accord , to engage themselves to the exercise thereof amongst themselves , may have liberty to do it : provided alwaies , that they do not offer to inforce others unto their way : but only the freedom , and liberty of themselves , and of their own , &c. then ought to be imposed , and made as a general , and binding rule , and way of government ; to which all must necessarily be ingaged in , or bound unto : as hath been said before . object . but it will be objected , seeing i propose this assertion to the presbyterians , in behalf of independents ; that it will be necessary , that i shew wherein the independents rules , and ways of discipline , are stricter then theirs ; for they are generally accounted , by the presbyterians , more remiss and loose in many respects ; giving way for libertie of all religions , without controule by the civil state , as so they speak of them . answ . i answer that their rules and principles , according to which they engage to act , are manfestly stricter , and lawfully too , in divers particulars , wherein i shall briefly instance : and wherein i thinke they are likewise ingaged , in duty and conscience so to do , though i will not deny , but many presbyterians are ingaged in conscience , to do the contrary , and are fully perswaded , that they ought so to do for the time present . 1. and first , they are stricter with whom they incorporate , and joyn themselves in church policy : and so far forth , as any particular church is politically joyned , for the government thereof , and for the good of the body in every respect . a church can never be too strict , but the stricter the better : and the more likely it is , to be well ordered and governed , and built both in faith and love , and all other graces and vertues whatsoever ; that may tend for the benefit and good of the whole . and therefore , their principles are to admit none to be incorporated with them , but men of approved fidelity : because according to their princples , they having liberty , and power in all church affairs , that are of joynt concernment , and that respect them all , as in elections , or ejections , admissions , or deprivations , receptions , or rejections ; receiving in , or casting out , from amongst themselves , they all having interest , as members of the body , have liberty , and power , for vote , or sufferage , as they are bound in conscience , and can see just cause , and render a reason of their faith , hope , or desires therein ; grounded upon scripture evidence , as so they ought to have . they , i say , according to their principles , having this power and liberty , &c. are bound to be strict , with whom they incorporate and joyn themselves : lest by sway of vote ; things should be carryed antichristian-wise , to the dishonour of god , and of the church , &c. by male administration of all the ordinances that concern them all , to be carefull of in the sight of god. for if men be admitted to have vote in election of ministers , and elders , and deacons , &c. that are not approved , for ficelity and fitness , to discern , in some good measure , whether they be men of good and honest report , and full of the holy ghost , and of wisdom , suitable for such a place ; they may cause the election and approbation of such as will defile the church with corrupt doctrine , and unsound principles , and ways , and manners , to their own destruction . and therefore all that are accounted to be truly religious , are not fit to be incorporated , as members of the body , to have liberty and power in such respects , till they come to ripeness and maturity of judgment in spiritual respects : in like case , as the levites , though they all were given as a gift unto aaron and to his sons , to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation , yet they were not to administer and wait on the service of the tabernacle , but from twenty and five years old , and up wards : and from the age of fifty years they were to cease waiting on the service thereof , and should serve no more , as numb . 8. 24 , 25 , 26. clearly implying , that onely in case of ripeness of judgment , and ableness , and fitness , for such a business , they ought to be used , and admitted , &c. but not otherwise , least they spoyl the government , of discipline , and service , that belongs unto them : however , notwithstanding , all that are accounted to be truly religious , ought to be admitted unto all the ordinaces , yea , even to the sacrament of the lords supper , though never so weak in understanding and knowledg , as all the levites , even during their minority ; yet aaron was appointed to bring them with him , for they might be present , though they did no service : and through they might not administer , and do the service of the tabernacle , yet they might be admitted to come neer with the rest , and to offer for themselves , though not for others , as the rest of the priests , as numb . 18. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , & chap. 16. 45. so that whatsoever concerned but themselves onely , they might come neer , and approach to do it , ( whereas no stranger might intermeddle ) though they might do no service that concerned the tabernacle , till they came to years : but of this more fully in another place . 2. and secondly , as they are stricter with whom they do incorporate , and joyn themselves , for these respects : even so , for the same ends and respects , they are very strict and conscientious , and ought so to be , that all that are found , and known to be men of approved fidelity , should thus incorporate and joyn themselves ; i say , their principles are , that all ought so to do , that live not too remote , but within convenient bounds , and in convenient numbers , for frequent assembling of themselves together : and to engage themselves in covenant unto god , in these respects , and unto all brotherly and christian duties , for better security , and deeper engagement , both to god and men , not to deal unfaithfully in all such business , as concerns them all , but without partiality , or respect of persons , as before god , and the lord jesus christ , and the elect angels . and all the account will be little enough , in things that concern the good of their souls , and the souls of posterities , that may yet succeed , to the end of the world ; for whom they ought to provide , and be careful for , that the gospel of peace , and of glad tydings , and all the ordinances , might be preached and administred , when they are gone in power and purity , as well as to themselves : and to beware of dogs , and evil workers , and wolves , &c. and as much as possible , to keep them out , least ungodly men , being crept in , should turn the grace of god into wantonness &c. and this gospel of peace , being a pearl so invaluable , as it were easie to shew , in every respect , can never be guarded with too great security , or deep engagement , nor too strictly kept from being soyled or defiled with the hands of men and though it be true , that the men of this world are wiser in their generations , ( and for conservation of their own liberties , priviledges , pearls and estates , and to confirm and secure them , even to their posterities after them , if possible for ever , ) then the children of light , as luk. 16. 8. mat. 7. 24 , 25. and may justly also rise up in judgment , and condemn our folly and carelessness herein : yet no man will say but that the children of light ought to be as wise in their generations , and in their precious things , and in the things of god , and that concern their souls , for so we ought , even to be wise as servants , though innocent as doves . and therefore to incorporate such as stand approved , and are men of fidelity , within convenient bounds , is doubtless the duty of all , and every such , in times of liberty , for publique administration of the ordinances of god , and for government and discipline : and in times of persecution , at the least privately , they ought so to do , without being restrained by the civil state , and limited , and kept within parochial bonds , against their christian liberties , and duties also , both to god , and men . 3. and thirdly , the principles of independents are stricter and neerer to the scripture rules for edifying of the church ; they do not limit the holy one of israel to speak in publike by the learned onely : for first , as the apostle saith , the manisestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal . 1 cor. 11. 7. assertion . from whence it naturally and manifestly flows , that to whomsoever the manifestation of the spirit is given , it is given to such to profit withal . it is objected . that the manifestation of the spirit are not so evident and perspicuous in these days , as in the primitive times ; and the witnessing thereunto by miracles is ceased , and therefore we may easily be deceived ; especially such who are unlearned and unstable , are easily deceived . ans . 1. i answer first , whether any now adays hath the manifestations of the spirit , yea , or no ; yet this assertion is true , for it doth not assert either . ans . 2. secondly , i answer , that if the manifestations of the spirit be not evident and demonstrable in these days , how can even the learned ministers preach as they ought , and as the apostles did , in the clear evidence and demonstration of the spirit , and of power , that so mens faith might not need to stand in the wisdom of men , but in the power of god , 1 cor. 2. 4. 5. ans . 3. thirdly , though for want of the witnessing thereunto by miracles , those who are carnal and do not beleeve , cannot discern the manifestations of the spirit , and the power of god , whereby men speak , as vers . 8 , 14. yet for all that , they may speak wisdom among them that are perfect ; yea , even the wisdom of god in a mystery , even the hidden wisdom , which god hath ordained before the world unto their glory ; and those secret mysteries , which eye hath not seen , neither ear heard , &c. which god hath prepared for them that love him , he doth reveal unto such by his spirit , vers . 6 , 7 , 8 , to 16. consequence . such therefore , though they be unlearned in the tongues , ( i mean ) who having received the spirit of god , are thereby spiritualiz'd , may discern all things , as vers . 10 , 15. yea , even the deep things of god. therefore it follows , that the manifestations of the spirit may be evident and demonstrable , even now in these days , to such who are spiritualiz'd through faith in god , though not to the carnal or worldly &c. who do account these spiritual things foolishness , as vers . 14. and wanting an eye of faith , cannot discern them ; because they are invisible : for as the light of the body is the eye , matth. 6. 22 , 23. so the light of the soul , whereby , and where-through it understandeth , or discerneth spiritual and invisible things , is the eye of faith. for as god himself being invisible , is only seen , or comprehended , and known through fatih : so are also the things of god , undiscernable without faith , heb. 11. quest . 1. but in what particular gifts , or qualifications , or administrations , or operations , are the manifestations of the spirit of god , and of power , evident and demonstrable in any that are not learned in the tongues , now in these days ? answ . i answer , that many of those , yea , and the chief of all those , that are reckoned up by the apostle , and are by him asserted , as manifestations of the spirit , 1 cor. 12. 8 , 9 , 10. and chap. 13. 3. are doubtless evident , and demonstrable in some unlearned in the tongues , even in these days . as 1. the word of wisdom . 2. the word of knowledg . 3. faith. 4. prophesying ; to wit , in speaking unto men , to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , which is the chief of all . 5. discerning of spirits . 6. interpretation of scriptures , that are dark and mysterious , and generally not understood . quest . 2. but may not some men , by means of good education , attain to a great measure of wisdom and knowledge , even in spiritual things : and so to the word of wisdom , and of knowledge , and to speak unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort ; and yet not have the spirit of god , nor his power evidently demonstrable , as is asserted ? answ . i answer , no : for the natural man perceiveth not the things of god , neither [ can ] he know them , saith the apostle , because they are spiritually discerned . and therefore he neither can know them , nor speak of them feelingly , and apprehensively : but only theoretically ; according to the largeness and capacity of his memory : as he hath learned , and is grounded in the principles of religion , and of faith , and doctrine ; as it were in a catachetical child-like manner ; who can keep to the words , but know not the sence ; and doe by art of memory , speak in the same words , and phrases , and manner , and form of doctrine with others . but as for feeling apprehension , and spiritual understanding , and knowledge [ indeed , ] of what they speak ; they are utterly uncapable , whiles they want faith . and this is easie to discern , by their coldness on the one hand , or their zeal on the other , in delivery thereof : and by their emphatical , or loose and light expressions , and arguments , and motives , and meanes &c. it is easie to discern , whether a man speak in spirit , that is to say , whether it come from the heart , and affection ; or but from the brain only . neither is it easie to counterfeit hearty affection , but it may easily be discern'd , that it is but forc'd . a very ideot may , by strength of memory , speak the bare words of a sermon , and rabble them over ; but he cannot keep to the distinct sense of every period , according to the proper intended emphasis , or meaning thereof ; but may by improper periods and interceptions , make the sence seem quite contrary to what it is indeed : but a man that understands it , and is apprehensively affected , according to it , can expresse it suitable to the true intent and meaning thereof . even just so it is , betwixt men that are spiritual , through faith in god ; and such as are carnal in all their expressions , concerning spiritual things . obj. but though it be difficult , and hard to counterfeit , yet it may be done ; so as few , or none , can discern , but they are as spiritual and as sound as others . qu. what notes therefore is there to prove , for certain , and that will evidence , and demonstrate indeed , that it is the spirit of god , that speaks in such , miracles excepted ? ans . there is many notes , by which men may be known , to speak in the spirit , and by the spirit of god. but some are more certain and infallible then others . i shall therefore instance , in some of the most certain : and those that on purpose are given out , by the spirit of god , as evident demonstrations , of the same spirit , and of power , &c. 1. and first , that note given out by the lord jesus christ himself , is an evident demonstration , that men are sent of god , and come not of themselves ; to wit , seeking his glory , ( if that do appeare ) for saith christ , he that commeth of himself , seeketh his owne glory ; but he that seeketh his glory that sent him , the same is true , and no unrighteousnesse is in him , joh. 7. 18. their zeal therefore for the glory of god , and self-denial , is a manifestation of the spirit of god. 2. that , joh. 10. 10. the thief commeth not , but for to steale , and to kill , and to destroy . but the good shepherd 〈◊〉 that they might have life , and have it more abundantly , to wit , spiritual life ; so that a desire will appear in the good shepherds ; that the sheep of christ might have a spiritual life , through faith , and that they might be edified and built up further in the same faith , even from strength to strength . and rather then saile of this their ends , they will not stick to lay down , even their lives for the good of their sheep , as vers . 11. but will continue to build them up further in faith , and love , which are in christ jesus : as vers . 28. 3. the wisdom which is from above , is first , pure ; not dark , and confused , darkning the councell with words without knowledge , but pure words , psalm . 12. 6. 2. it is peaceable ; not wrangling , and froward , angry , and contentious . 3. it is gentle and meeke ; not sowre , and proud , and harsh , and furious . 4. it is easie to be intreated ; not self-willed , and obstinate , obdurate and implacable , but ingenious , and tractable . 5. it is full of mercy , and good fruits , both in word and deed : and not cruel , and unmerciful , pittiless , and careless of doing good ; neither to the just , nor unjust . look jam. 17. 18. 4. it is the property of the holy ghost , when he cometh , or by whomsoever he speaketh , to convince the world of sin , of righteousness , and of judgement , joh. 16. 8. 5. and to lighten things that are hid in darknesse : and make the councels of the hearts manifest ; as 1 cor. 4. 5. and chap. 14. 24 , 25. the first , by a clear unfolding , and interpreting of sacred scriptures , that are dark , unto others , and not formerly opened : and this of all others , is the most manifest evidence of the spirit of god. and secondly , a speaking to the heart , and to the souls and consciences of men ; discovring their very thoughts , and councels : and approving themselves , to every mans conscience in the sight of god. 6. their comming to the light that their deeds might be made manifest , that they are wrought in god , is a cleare evidence , that they do truth , as john. 3. 21. their end appearing to be such , that they meane no falshood . 7. their shining forth as lights in the world ; and holding forth the word of life , phil. 2. 15. 16. yea , even the faithful word , that cannot be reproved : and making it manifest ; as they ought to do : for therefore they are called , the light of the world : marth . 5. 14. for all things that are reproved , are made manifest by the light : for whatsoever doth make manifest , is light , ephes . 5. 13 , 14. but the chief of all these particulars , is a cleare understanding , and knowledge of god , and of the sacred scriptures , and of the secrets and miseries of the kingdom of god ; for without all controversie , great is the mystery of godlinesse , as the apostle saith , coloss . 1. 26. 27 , 28. rom. 16. 25. ephes . 3. 9. 2 tim. 1. 10. tit. 1. 2. 1. pet. 1. 20. reas . for to them that are without , and unbeleeving , all things ( saith christ ) are done in parables , luke 8. 10. and mar. 4. 33 , 34. matth. 13. 11 , 12 , to 18. how much more then are the secret mysteries of god , and of christ , and of our spirituall union , and communion with him ( which is onely spiritual , through faith and love ) parables and misteries unto all such , who have no knowledge of god at all ; but only as they have heard of him , by the hearing of the eare ; or barely theorettical , without an eye of faith. consiq . therefore it follows ; that he that speaketh understandingly , and apprehensively of these secret mysteries ; doth evidently demonstrate , that he speaketh by the spirit , through the power and grace of the spirit of god ; who onely revealeth , and giveth understanding of the things of god ; as hath been said : so that it is manifest , that it is not they that speak , but the spirit of their father that speaketh in them . and by how much more they shall lighten things , that are hid in darkness ; and make the councels of the hearts manifest , as 1 cor. 4. 5. by the cleare unfolding , or interpretation of sacred scripture , and of the secrets thereof ; especially such as are dark and mystical , and hid from others ; or that have not formerly been explained , and opened ; or not convincingly , as a cleer result , producing an infallible assent . by so much the more evident , and demonstrable it is ; that it is not they that speak ; but the spirit of their father that speaketh in them , matth. 10. 19. 20. yea , that they are sent to speak , or to declare those things , being thrust forth , even by the spirit of christ who dwelleth in them ; and being lord of the harvest thrusteth forth labourers into his hanvest . for how is it is possible , that things that are hid from the wise and learned , should be revealed even unto babes , and to the foolish , &c. ( in respect with this world , ) if they were not inspired , and revealed unto them by the spirit of god , seeing they have not learned them by humane documents , but from god onely . object . but it will be objected , that it were immodesty , yea presumption , and a tok●n of spiritual pride in men , if they should so much as acknowledg , much less affirm , that they are taught of god , and that immediatly , by the inspiration of his blessed spirit ; and that it is not they that speak , but the spirit of their father that speaketh in them : but especially for unlearned men , that are but as babes , compared with the wise and learned , it were a shameful thing in them to do it , above all compare . answ . i answer , if they understand and know such things as have been said , even the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of god , which they have not learned , not bin taught of men . to whom then should they ascribe the glory ? ought they to ascribe it to their own wisdom ? dare the learned ascribe their spiritual understanding , and knowledge of god , and of the things of god , either to their own wisdom , or their learnedness in the tongues , which a carnal man may attain unto , that can know nothing of the things of god , as hath been said ? were this to give god the glory , and to do it as of the ability that god administreth , that in all things god might be glorified ? were this to speak as the oracle of god , and in his name ? 1 pet. 4. 11. might not such justly expect the judgment of herod , to be struck with an angel of the lord , and to be eaten up of worms , because they give not the glory unto god of what they do or speak , in his sacred name , that is good , or excellent , and true &c. and it is doubtful , at least , that such who utterly exclude all that are not learned in the tongues , i mean , from speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , or from any ministration in the name of god in publique , especially that they thereby intimate , that their abilities for spiritual ministration are onely attained through learnedness in the tongues ; for how else durst they be so bold , as to limit the holy one of israel , that he shall not speak but by the learned onely ? object . but it will be objected , that speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , is not properly to prophecy ; for prophecying is properly foreshewing of things to come , though such who prophecy , do ordinarily also speak unto men to edification , &c. as well as prophecy of things to come . ans . 1. i answer , first , that they that edifie the church , build them up in faith ; and faith is of things invisible , and chiefly of things to come ; for faith is the ground of things hoped for , and the evidence of things not seen , heb. 11. 1. and therfore edifying , or building men up further in the true faith , and giving them better evidences and grounds of things hoped for from sacred testimonies , is , of all other , the chiefest prophecying , and most useful , powerful , and comfortable , for giving life to the souls of men , both in this life , and in the life to come , spiritual life i mean , even joy and comfort unspeakable and full of glory , see joh. 10. 10. 28. and 1 joh. 5. 11 , 12 , 13. yea , for perfecting of the saints , as eph. 4. 11. to 16. 2. and as for the other , as of foreshewing new things to come , as agabus prophecyed of the dearth and famine over all the world . though it be a part of prophecying not so ordinarily attainable , and more difficult in these days , yet it is not so needful nor useful as the other : and though it be a more certain and evident demonstration of the sacred spirit inspired into such , when the thing is accomplished and come to pass ; yet that part of prophecying which the apostle commends as the chief of all , to wit , speaking unto men to edification , &c. is both far more profitable , and a clearer evidence ( for the time present ) of the spirit of god , then the other is . and therefore i say , first , it is the most present evidence , and most immediate demonstration of the spirit , and of power , because foreshewing of things to come is no present and immediate evidence of it self , till the things be come to pass that are in truth foreshewed ; though it is true , that foreshewing of things to come , is the very complement and perfection of prophecying , and the most visible demonstration of the spirit of god , as deut. 18. 22. and joh. 16. 13. when the things are accomplished . 2. but , secondly , yet this prophecying intended by the apostle , is the most useful , and the most profitable of all other gifts , for the edifying of the church : and therefore saith the apostle , follow after charity , and desire spiritual gifts , but chiefly that ye may prophecy . 1 cor 14. 1. and the reason is rendered vers . 3. because he that prophecyeth , speaketh unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort : which is the chief end of all gifts ▪ for all that are zealous of spiritual gifts , should seek that they might excel to the edifying of the church , as vers . 12. although the gift of tongues , and so also foreshewing of things to come , is a more evident demonstration to convince them that beleeve not , as vers . 22. yet look the end of all gifts , as 1 cor. 14. 12. ephes . 4. 12. 1 pet. 4. 10 , 11. rom. 12. 6 , 7 , 8. for [ that ] should be our end . but prophecying , saith the apostle , serveth not for them that beleeve not , but for them that beleeve , vers . 22. and therefore is of greater and more profitable use for the edifying of the church . but wherefore , or wherein is it more useful ? the apostle answers , and brings it in as a reason , to wit , for he that prophecyeth , speaketh unto men to edification , exhortation , and comfort . consequ . and therefore it follows , that speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , is of all other gifts the most useful , and most to be desired and sought after , and to be most esteemed , and accounted of by the church of god : and so are all such who have that gift , and do not hide it in a napkin , but use it accordingly for the same end for which it is given , whiles they keep unto sound doctrine that cannot be reproved ; and speak but according to the law and testimony , and seek but onely and chiefly hi glory that sent them ; and that they might excel to the edifying of the church , and to convince the world of sin , of righteousness , and of judgment : and if they contend earnestly , if it be but for the faith that was once delivered to the saints ; or do but stand and fast to the christian liberty where with christ hath made us free , and that they might not be entangled with yokes of bondage , not be as men pleasers or servants of men , after they are bought with a price , provided they preach nor seek any liberty at all to do any evil , either in word or deed ; nor to be contentious and disobedient to the truth of god ; i say of such , they are sent of god : and whosoever resuseth , resisteth , disparageth , disgraceth , or despiseth such , doth even the same to him that sent them : and such , of all others , ought to be hon●red , even with double honor , that both rule well , and also labor in the word and doctrine by speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , as hath been said . and therefore all that are in authority ought to give liberty to all them whose spirit god hath raised to build up the churches in their most holy faith , lest wrath be upon them from the lord , as ezra 1. 5 , 6. and chap. 7. 13 , 16 , 13. and chap. 8. 22 , 23. and psa . 2. it is therefore a matter of dangerous consequence , either to act , or so much as seem to act , or comply with such , who doc exclude all from any spiritual ministration , in the name of god , and of the lord jesus christ , yea even in publique , ( i mean ) that are not learned in the tongues ; for they exclude , it may be , such as peter and john and all the church which was at jerusalem , who were all scattered abroad , and went every where preathing the word , see acts 8. 1 , 4. psa . 2. throughout . and the apostle speaking to the hebrews , tells them , that when for the time they ought to have been [ teachers , ] yet they had need to learn , &c. heb. 5. 12. 1 reas . for what is it else , but to limit the holy one of israel , that he shall not speak , but by the learned onely , either in private or publique ? who hath told us plainly , that he hideth things from the wise and learned , that he revealeth unto babes , luk. 10. 2. reas . and what is it else , but clearly to oppose the apostles rules , given out for direction in such cases , to wit , 1. as every man hath received the gift , so let him administer the same , as good disposers of the manifold grace of god. and 2. let every man administer according to the measure or proportion of his faith. 3. and how dangerous is it to advise , much less to compel any man to hide his talent in a napkin , and not to suffer him to occupy with it for his masters advantage , least it be taken from him ? yea , though it be that [ man ] that hath but one poor talent , who doubtless ought to put it forth in his place and calling , as well as those that have five or more , see heb. 10 , 22 , to 26 , &c. heb. 5. 12 , to 15. &c. 4. and how shall those things be made known to the church that are on purpose hid from the wise and learned , and onely revealed unto babes , &c. if we cannot be content to learn them at babes , as good old eli both did , and was glad to do , at the child samuel ? and hath not god on purpose done it ; and chosen the base and foolish things of this world , to confound the wise and the mighty , &c. as 1 cor. 1. 2 , 27 , 28. 29. and chap. 2. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 on purpose i say . yea , that no flesh should rejoyce in his presence , but that he that glorieth , might glory in the lord. was not the word of the lord , revealed unto the childe samuel , rather then to good old eli : and did not eldad and midad prophesie in the camp , as well as the rest , and as lawfully too ; the spirit of the lord coming upon them : did moses forbid them till he had blessed them ; or till their callings of god should be evidenced by miracles ; as moses was , and as some do expect ; or they will not heare an unlearned man ; see john 11. 9 , 10 , 11. john did no miracle , though all men held john as a prophet . or shall we charge them with immodestie , for offering to preach , without ordination ? was no prophet accounted a prophet , but that wrought miracles , or was ordained by men : and learned in the tongues ? look joh. 10. 41. was not amos an herdman , and a gatherer of sacamore fruit ; when the lord took him , and sent him to prophesie ? and do not his words good , to them that walk uprightly , by whomsoever he sendeth them ? is it not lawful for the lord jesus christ , to thrust forth labourers into his harvest ; without licence from the learned in the tongues ? or doe not they that refuse , whomsoever he sendeth , refuse him ? or is it lawful to forbid any , whom he sendeth ; to preach unto men , that they might be saved ? like the wicked jewes , the salvation of souls being their chief end , as the drift of their doctrine will easily shew . is it not lawfull , for them that know the terror of the lord , to perswade men ? and should not every man administer according to the measure of his faith ; and be as good stewards of the manifold grace of god ; as hath been said , without licence , from the learned in the tongues ? and must they but only be suffered , to administer according to the measure , and degrees of their learnedness , and knowledge in the tongues meerely ? have none the manifestation of the spirit , but the learned in the tongues ? or dare we cross the apostle , and say , that the manifestation of the spirit , is not given to every man , to profit withal ? or that the chief grace and gift of the spirit , and that which is most profitable , and usefull to the church for edification ; and therefore most chiefly to be desired , is [ not ] that men might prophesie ? or what is this prophesying , that is so much to be desired , above all other gifts ; yea , above the gift of tongues ? is it not speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort ? 1 cor. 14. 1 , 3. is is not preferred before the gift of tongues ? how much more then is it to be prefer'd before [ learnedness ] in the tongues ; which is onely taught by humane document ; and is not given as a manifestation of the spirit : but is that which a carnal man , that knoweth nothing , neither can know any thing , concerning spiritual things , may attain unto , 1 cor. 2. 14. therefore learnedness in the tongues , being no manifestation of the spirit at all ; is therefore no signe , that men are called of god , and sent to preach . but he that hath prophesie , let him prophesie according to the proportion of faith . but who is this [ he ] that hath prophesie , in the apostles sence in this place ? but he that speaketh unto men ; to edification , and exhortation , and comfort . and yet further by way of directory , he giveth forth a most exact rule , to wit : quest . but how , and what order must be used ? answ . let the prophets speak , two or three , and let the rest judge : and if any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by , let the first hold his peace . quest . but why so ? answ . for ye may all speake one by one , that all may learn , and all may be comforted , vers . 29 , 30 , 31. quest . but where , and when , and in what company must this be , that the prophets may all speak one by one ? answ . when the whole church of the corinthians was come together , as vers . 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27. and therefore also , when any whole church , rightly constituted ; as the corinthians was , are come together , they may do the like , quest . but were not this immodesty , in these dayes , when the whole church is come together in some place ; and every one hath a psalme , hath doctrine , hath a tongue , hath revelation , hath an interpretation ; that all these one by one , should be communicated for the good of the whole , as vers . 26 , 27 , 31 , 32. all that are prophets i meane , for so is the directory ? vers . 29. 24. answ . was this the practise of the churches in the primitive times , by the apostles direction ? might all that were zealous of spiritual gifts , seek that they might excell , to the edifying of the church ? as vers . 12. and must it therefore now , be accounted immodesty , because it is not the custome in our churches , before these times ? yea , must it be accounted immodesty , to use the same liberty in those churches ; which are of purpose so constituted ; that the gifts of al that are so qualified , may be most useful and profitable unto all : that all might learne , and all might be comforted , and all might be edified ; as vers . 30. 31. and might grow in grace , from faith to faith , and from strength to strength , till they come to be tall men and women , in jesus christ : as psal . 84. 7. yea , that holding the head , from which all the body by joynts and bands , having nourishment , ministred and knit together , might the more increase , with the increase of god ? as coloss . 2. 19. and chap. 3. 12 , 13. to 18. and why should any member of the mystical body of jesus christ , be therefore despised as uselesse , and unprofitable , because unlearned in the tongues ? hath not god himself , on purpose , so provided and tempered the body together , and given more honour to that part which lacked : that there might be no schisme in the body : but that the members might learn , to have the same care one of another : seeing the heat cannot say to the feet , i have no need of you : as chap. 12. 13. &c. to the end . proposing the usefulnesse , and propriety and necessity of every member of our natural bodies ; to be as patterns unto bodies spiritual : that all the members , in their several places , might be accounted of , incouraged , honoured , comforted , edified , and esteemed of , as they ought to be , necessary and useful for the good of the whole ; shewing that the most feeble members ought not to be despised , but , as much as in us lieth , honored and clothed with more abundant comeliness : and every one called forth , employed , desired , and deputed ( by such who can discern their proper gifts , or fitness and abilities , for the necessary use and good of the whole , or of any other parts or members of the body ) to such employments as they are fittest for : and this calling and deputation would take away all appearance or suspition of immodesty in any such members , to what ever employment they are called unto . but while it is otherwise , and that the very constitution of our presbyterian churches require , that none be admitted , but that is so and so learned ( and that enters in by the learned's door ) it were immodesty to observe the apostles rules in such presbyterian churches . and it is no marvel if such who do it ( yea though in other churches ) be accounted silly fellows , and tubpreachers by the rude people , who it may be account them , as they did paul and others , no better then mad , as vers . 23. for they are so accounted , and spoken of too , and that by our grave divines , so reverendly they esteem of the gifts of god , and of the graces of his spirit , which are the more perspicuous , by how much more they are unlearned in the tongues . and therefore it is no marvel if it be so unto them all , as is spoken in these scriptures , isa . 29. from the 9 , to the end , micab 3. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. hosea 8. 12. let them look to it that despise prophecying , that resist and spirit ; yea , that like jannes and jambres resist the truth , and that despise but the least of those little ones that beleeve in christ ; for they do despise , and resist him and his sacred truth . and it is to be feared , that many are guilty even of speaking [ words ] against the holy ghost ; a dangerous sin ( as it needs must be ) that shall never be forgiven either in this life , or in the life to come , as mat. 12 , 30 , 31 , 32. it is no marvel , if such ministers , yea though the chiefest of all on the face of the earth , have no manifest vision , as once it was in the days of eli , when they caused the people to despise the offering of the lord ; even so i mean , they cause the people to despise such service , and offerings , and sacrifice , as god now requires , as rom , 12. 1● . rev. 1. 6. 1 pet. 2. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. for they that despise these things , despise not men , but god. it is no marvel , if they must be content either to learn it at babes , or to be without , and dye without knowledg , as 1 sam. 3. 1 , 17 , 18. hos . 4 5 , 6. object . but it will be objected , that the like ways for edifying of the church in these days , that were practised in the apostles times , are not suitable now , because that those extraordinary gifts are ceased . ans . 1. i answer , that the chief and most profitable of all those gifts , for edifying of the church , is still on foot , to wit , prophecying , speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , as hath been said , 1 cor. 14 , 1 , 2 , 3. secondly , i answer , that the same spirit worketh also now , in them that beleeve , and is as full of power , and as willing also to edifie the church ; for it is not changeable : and what know we , but some now adays are full of matter ? the spirit within them constraining them to speak , job 32 , 18 , to 22. so it was with elihu , who had not another , but even the self-same spirit ; who divideth to every man severally as he will : and so it was with david , and paul , and jeremiah , and others , as a fire within them . but it is to be feared , as least , if not a thing obvious and manifest , that there is some , even now adays , as in the days of old , that shut the doors of the kingdom of god , and neither enter in themselves , nor suffer them that would , as christ himself told them . yea , light is wanting , and vision faileth them , and they walk in darkness , and yet despise the help of any new lights , though many old lights ( that are publique and clear , and manifest unto others , and that of old likewise , ) would be new lights unto them , if they could discover them , 1 joh. 2. 10 , 11. but they are in darkness , and walk in darkness , and know not whither they go ; nor what they speak , nor whereof they affirm , but even speak evil of the things they know not , 2 pet. 2. 12. and yet , for all that , would be accounted , and expect to be followed , and obeyed of all , as if they were omniscient , like god himself , and could not possibly err , vers . 10. but all have not the knowledg of god ; this may be spoken to all our shame : else they would know , that he that thinketh he knoweth any thing , knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know . object . but there is ordinarily scriptural examples alledged against this which hath been said , concerning preaching of unlearned men that are not learned in the tongues , nor graduates in the schools , to deter men from presumption in such respects , to wit , the examples of vzza , and vzziah , and of korah and his company . but they are mis-applyed for the most part , as i shall make it manifest from sacred scripture . 1. for first , whereas they are applyed against all unlearned men that take upon them the priests office ; they apply them also against peter and john , as acts 4. 13. & 8 , 1 , 4. 2. and secondly , it is manifest in scripture , that in some sence , all the elect are truly and properly called priests , and both do , and ought to offer sacrifice , and to take upon them so far forth , even a priest-like office . reas . for the apostle peter , writing to the strangers , scattered through pontus , galatia , cappadocia , asia , and bithynia , that were elect , &c. 1 pet. 1. 1 , 2. calleth them a chosen generation , a royal priesthood , &c. chap. 2. 9. and a holy priesthood , vers . 5. and that also to offer up spiritual sacrifice , acceptable to god by jesus christ . and that they might shew forth the praises of him who hath called them out of darkness into his marvellous light . and rev. 1. 6. it is said of christ , that he hath made us kings and priests unto god and his father . i hope therefore , that none will deny but all the elect may offer these sacrifices , to wit , these spiritual sacrifices of prayers , praises , and virtuous living , to shew forth the virtues , and praises of him that hath called us , &c. and that also , without danger of being struck with leprosie , or death , or being swallowed up of the earth , like korah and his company , or being destroyed with fire , or any such judgment , if they do it in sincerity , and offer not strange fire , like nadab and abihu ; and if they charge not others with taking too much upon them , that are called of god and precious , &c. like korab and his company . object . but it will be objected , but what , is there no difference then , but all that are elect may take upon them to preach ? i answer , yes , there is diversities of gifts , and diversities of operations , &c. and there is degrees and measures given out of the same spirit : it is onely true of the lord jesus christ , that to him was not given the spirit by measure : and as all members of the body are not fit for , neither have the same office ; so it is also in the body spiritual , that one and the self-same spirit giveth out to every one severally and variously as it pleaseth him : there is and ought to be feet and hands , as well as eyes and mouth , which are most properly placed in the head . and though it be true . that if any man have not the spirit of christ , the same is none of his . yet it therefore follows not , that all that are his have the manifestations of the spirit . it is one thing to have the spirit , and another thing to have the manifestations of the spirit . but where ever the manifestation of the spirit is given to any man , it is given ( saith the apostle ) to prosit withal , in their several places and degrees , according to the measure , or nature , or property of their gifts , and calling ; and qualifications : for , to one is given by the spirit , the word of wisdom ; to another the word of knowledg , by the same spirit : and to another faith , by the same spirit : to another the gifts of healing , by the same spirit : to another the working of miracles , to another prophecy , to another discerning of spirits to another divers kindes of tongues , to another the interpretation of tongues . as 1 cor. 12. 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , &c. i shall therefore compare such , who ( in any of these particulars mentioned by the apostle ) have the manifestation of the spirit , to the sons of aaron ; to whom belonged the priesthood in a peculiar manner , above the rest of the sons of levi : for such , who have ( in any of these particulars ) the manifestations of the spirit , they have , as it were , a visible unction from the holy one , 1 joh . 2. 20 , 27 according as aaron was anointed , and his sons also with him , and sprinkled with holy oyl , levit. 8. 30 , 31. and so were consecrated , and appointed to their charge at the lords appointment , as vers . 33 , 34 , &c. and as aaron was above his sons , and wore the brest-plate , and other ornaments that were peculiar unto him , as vers . 7 , 8 , 9. and to him onely as the chief priest ; so the ministers of the word are chief , and ought to be so accounted and esteemed in the church ; and all other officers , as elders and deacons , who are resembleable to the sons of aaron , ( if such as they ought , ) ought to be chosen and consecrated likewise , as well as the ministers : and they should be known approved , as men full of the holy ghost , and wisdom , and of honest report likewise , or else they are not suitable to be joyned with the ministers , nor consecrated by them , unto any office in the church of god , as appeares , act. 6. 3. but all that are such , having the manifestation of the spirit , both lawfully may , and ought to desire the office of bishop , as a worthy work ; or any such office , or liberty in the church : whereby they might be useful or profitable to the same any kind of way . for as the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withall ; so , to profit the church ought likewise to be their end , and the desire , and endeavour of all that have such gifts : and they may and ought , even to seek occasions , that they might doe good , and desire of god that they might be sent : as the good prophet isaia , when his lips had been touched with a coal from the altar , and that his iniquity was taken away , and his sin purged : he readily answered the lord , even before he had his message ; here am i , send me , isai . 6. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. and they that are zealous of spiritual gifts , ought to seek , that they might excel , to the edifying of the church . and such , whose end is only the edifying of the church , ought not to be restrained , but rather put on and encouraged , and called forth ( by such who can , and do discerne their proper gifts and abilities for the same ) to such employments and ministrations , as they are fittest for ; and might be most useful in : for the good of all , or any part thereof . 1. i say therefore , we may justly compare all such who have the manifestations of the spirit , to aaron , and his sons ; and they are all fitted and qualified on purpose for spiritual ministration , or profit to the church in one kinde or other , as their gifts and abilities are fittest for ; and ought to be called and consecrated thereunto , and suffered to administer , as occasion serves , and as need requires . he that hath prophesie , ought to prophesie according to the proportion of faith ; or ministry , should wait on his ministry ; or he that teacheth , on teaching ; or he that exhorteth , on exhortation ; he that giveth , should do it with simplicity ; he that ruleth , with diligence ; and he that sheweth mercy , with cheerfulnesse , rom. 12. 6 , 7 , 8. one way or other , such who have the gifts , though differing one from another , ought to use them , for the edifying , and good , and benefit of the church : and ought not to hide their talents in napkins ; but to occupy with them for their masters profit . and he whomsoever , that despiseth these things , despiseth not man but god , who hath given unto some , that are unlearned in the tongues , even his holy spirit , 1 thess . 4. 8. 2. and secondly , we may justly compare all the rest of beleevers ( that as yet , for the present , have no such gifts , or manifestations of the spirit ) to all the rest of the tribe of levie , who thought they did not beare the iniquity of the sanctuary , and the iniquity of their priesthood , nor minister before the tabernacle of witness , nor might not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary , and the altar , lest they should die : yet aaron was appointed to bring them with him , that they might be joyned unto him , and minister unto him ; and keep his charge , and the charge of all the tabernacle of the congregation , for all the service of the tabernacle . whereas a stranger might not come neer unto them . but aaron and his sons must keep the charge of the sanctuarie , and the charge of the altar , that there might be no wrath any more upon the children of israel : as there had formerly been occasioned by the rebellion of corah , and in part of all the congregation , numb . 18. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , and chap. 16. 45. for as the lord told aaron , that behold he had taken their brethren , the levites , from among the children of israel ; to them they were given as a gift for the lord , to doe the service of the congregation . but he , and his sons with him , should keep the priests office , for every thing of the altar , and within the vaile ; and that they should serve ; for he had given their priests office unto them , as a service , or gift ; and the stranger that came nigh should be put to death : as chap. 18. 6 , 7. even so we may justly say , behold , the lord hath taken all true beleevers , from amongst their neighbours , and give them as a gift of the lord , to be joyned with the ministers , and other officers in the church of god , to do the services of the congregation , and to keep all the charge of the church , in all outward respects , as for receiving in or shutting out from the publike assembly , joyntly with them . but the ministers , and officers are to keep the charge of all within the vaile ; as of the word , and sacraments , which they are to administer , in the name of god , and of the lord jesus christ ; and to take care , that none be admitted , but such who are outwardly , or at least , professedly clean ; having their hearts purified through faith , and repentance , &c. though yet , this always provided , that as the levites , levit. 8. 14 , 15 , 16 , 18 , 19. thought they all were given as a gift unto aaron , and his sons , to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation : ( yet ) they were not admitted , to administer and wait on the service of the tabernacle of the congregation , but from 25 years old , and upwards ; and from the age of 50 years they should cease waiting on the service thereof , and should serve no more , but should minister with their brethren in the tabernacle of the congregation , to keep the charge , as numb . 8. 24 , 25 , 26. even so also , though all beleevers are given as a gift to the ministers , and officers of the church , to be joyned with them , in opening , and shutting ; in binding and loosing ; in all such respects as concern the whole church , for the good of all , as when all must receive , or all reject ; all approve , or dis-allow ; all elect , or eject , &c. because that all are accessary , or joyntly ingaged in such generall business , as members of the body , 1 cor. 3. 16 , 17. yet they are not admittable , in this respect , neither , till they come to ripeness , and maturity of judgement in christianity ; and be established in the faith , and in the trade and practise of christianity , in all duties belonging thereunto : for there is a childhood and minority , as well in grace , as nature , 1 cor. 3. 1 , 2. and therefore saith the apostle , receive the weak , but not unto doubtful [ disputations : ] rom. 14. even so say i , the weake ought to be received , but not to intermeddle in doubtful [ elections ; ] or ejections , &c. in which they have no skill , nor judgement , and experience in . for so the wisdom of god accounted fit , to appoint the levites , in such like service , and respects , that belonged to their charge : lest by any means , their service and office should be despised , through male-administration , or childish ignorance or defection , and therefore they must not administer , till they came to the age of 25. years , &c. and therefore to conclude , an abrevate , from all these comparisons ; it is thus much in effect . abrev. to wit , all the elect , that are built upon christ by a lively faith , are lively stones , built up a spiritual house , yea , an holy priesthood , to offer up spiritual sacrifice , acceptable to god by jesus christ , 1 pet. 2. 5. and chap. 1. 2. so that all beleevers are accounted as priests , even from their first ingrafting into christ by faith , ( in some respects ) as is before specified . but as there was priests of divers orders ; so also ought the true beleevers to be distinguished . i compare therefore the newly converted to the levites in their minority , till they came to years : and all the grown christians , that are approved and experienced in the trade and practise of christianity , to the levites when they came to years of discretion . and all the elders and officers elected by the church , or that are full of the holy ghost and of wisdom , i compare to the priests , the sons of aaron , yea , though they be of such as are not learned in tongues , if they have such gifts , and qualifications , as are manifestations of the spirit of god. and so the ministers of god , i compare to aaron , who in many things was above his sons , as hath been said . and who knoweth , but the lord jesus christ , upon whose shoulder the government lieth , will govern his church after these examples , seeing the apostle peter doth thus compare them , as resembling the priesthood , and not as resembling the jewish nation , both priests and people ? for that he doth not , see also , mal. 4. 4. and then the danger lieth not against men unlearned , that have the manifestation of the spirit , and of power , least they should perish in the gainsaying of korah , because they take upon them , being called by the church , to preach and administer in the name of god. but the danger lies against such who are sensual , having not the spirit , and yet will take upon them ministerial functions in the name of god , because they are learned in the tongues , and graduates in the schools , jude 11 , 18 , 19 , 20. see zech. 12 , 13. chap. these are strangers that may not come nigh , &c. as numb . 18. 4 , 22. but it will be objected , that if unlearned men be suffered to preach , they that are unlearned , and unstable , may wrest the scriptures to their own destruction , as 2 pet. 3. 16 , 17. and may lead others into errors and schisms , and cannot be hindered , nor supprest ; neither can it otherwise be avoyded ; but men that know not the originall , should ordinarily mis-understand dark places of scripture , and so like blinde guides lead men into the ditch . answ . i answer that it is true , that men that are both unle arned and unstable , do , and will wrest some places of scripture ; and it cannot be avoyded , but there will be false teachers , even amongst us in these days , as well as there was false prophets in the days of old , as 2 pet. 2. 1. and such also , it may be as shall privily bring in damnable heresies , even denying the lord that bought them , and shall bring upon themselves swift destruction : and there is no security given out in scripture , that none that is learned in the tongues should be of the number of these false teachers : for men that are learned in the tongues , may be unstable , and wrest the scriptures : and by how much the more they , that are unstable , are learned in the tongues , they are even so much the more dangerous , if they should be suffered . and therefore unstableness is a greater fault , and more dangerous then unlearnedness in the tongues : and men may he learned in the scriptures , or unlearned either , and yet learned in the tongues . men ought not therefore to be inhibited to preach , ( lest they should be unstable , and wrest the scriptures ) for then the learned , as well as the unlearned , should both be inhibited . but such , who ( being proved ) are found unstable , and that they do wrest the scriptures , no man will deny , but such may , and ought to be inhibited , when they are found out , and convicted of error , or of schism , &c. yea , though they be of the learned . but to inhibit men before , were to censure and condemn men before they be heard . and see ezek , 18. 20. the righteousness of the righteous ought to be upon him , as a badg of honor ; but the wickedness of the wicked should but be upon himself . but the best and surest way to prevent the sowing and spreading of errors , or schisms , is to give liberty , that any whomsoever , that preacheth in publique , may in publique also be reprehended ( be they learned or unlearned ) if they preach erroneously in any congregation ; that so the same auditory , that hears them preach any error , or schism , or false doctrine , may , by just reprehension from clear scripture-evidence , be satisfied to the contrary ; and have such evil seed purged out quickly , before it grow up , or be spread any further ; for so it ought to be : and those churches are not rightly constituted , where this liberty is either wanting , or not in use , when the truth of god is wronged , and wrested , and turned into a lye ; and when his sacred word is handled deceitfully , and mis-applyed , as it often is , even by the learned in the tongues , that are unstable &c. and yet no man allowed to reprehend them for it , nor convince them of it , at least not in publique : and how then shall the same auditory be purged from it , if their reprehension be not as publique , as the doctrine is preached ? for who knows that all the congregation shall every one of them be assembled again ? and the doctrine may be such , as may lead them to perdition and destruction , both of their souls and bodies . and this liberty being in use , will doubtless make both the learned and unlearned a great deal more careful , to keep unto sound doctrine that cannot be reproved . and they that plead so much against liberty of preaching of men unlearned in the tongues , for fear of the spreading of errors and schisms , and yet will not allow this publique liberty of reprehension ( as hath been said ) to prevent , and avoyd , and purge the same . i can hardly beleeve that the spreading of errors and schisms is the chief cause that makes them zealous therein , but some other by , or self-respects , which they will not own . for no man , that is zealous against such spreading gangrenes , but he will allow , and justifie , and approve all possibe means to avoyd or stay them , else he is not cordial in that respect : and what means possibly can be more awful , and more suitable , and even necessary , then publique reprehension of publique errors ? the apostle paul reprehended peter before them all , gal. 2. 14. and them that sin ( saith the apostle ) rebuke before all , that others also may fear , 1 tim. 5. 20. but it will be objected , that it were an immodest part for any man to implead his minister in the publique congregation ; and might disgrace , and disparage , and dishonor him for ever . ans . i answer , that it is far greater immodesty in such ministers to need to it , and to give just occasion by dealing immodestly with the truth of god , to the disgrace , and disparagement , and dishonor of god ; in respect of whom , and for maintenance of whose truth , we must not know either father or mother , son or daughter , minister or master , brother or friend ; but to undervalue , disgrace , dishonor , disparage , yea , and even hate them , in comparison thereof ; and rather then baulk the truth , that concerns the good of immortal souls , especially in case , when it may endanger the loss of souls , so precious is the redemption of souls , and their continuance for ever : and of so high esteem ought the glory of god to be valued of us . he that valueth himself , or his own honor , or grace and glory , yea , or his own life , better then the truth and the glory of god , deserveth no better , but shame and dishonor for his self-ish ends and pride , &c. and he that doth truth , and cometh to the light , that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in god , he will be desirous to be tryed by the touchstone , even the truth it self ; and will love him better that lets him see his error ( in such a case ) then him that flattereth with his lips , or holdeth his tongue , and lets him run on in erroneous paths , either in life or doctrine . and it is a sign , that such men do [ evil ] that hate the light , and that will not abide the tryal by the touchstone , in as open and publique a place , as they have held forth doctrine , provided always that it be done with meekness , in a loving way , as it ought to be ; for so saith the apostle , let all your things be done in love . and that there be also a free acknowledgment , by them that do it , of their own weaknesses , and subjection of themselves to all or any error , and to be likewise tempted and drawn aside ; and that they onely stand , and are upheld by the grace of god , of his free accord ; and with a clear manifestation of such material and weighty causes , and considerations , moving them thereunto , as are of greater value and consequence , then the credit , and reputation , and honor due unto such a minister ; for it ought not to be done upon slight occasion , but matters of weight , and such as will over-ballance all the shame and disgrace that may possibly fall upon such a minister . and it is a signe , that men come of themselves , ( and are not sent of god ) if they seek their own glory : or if their own glory be so near and dear unto them , that they cannot be content to undervalue it , to the glory of god , or to his sacred truth ; if they cannot be content to let god be [ true ] and every man a lyar ; but will rather oppose the truth of god , then acknowledg themselves to have erred from the truth , jam. 5. 19 , 20. it is a shrewd sign , that there is in such men , a spice of that pride , that exalteth the pope , above all that is called god , or that is worshipped : who arrogateth power , and dominion to himself , as if he could not erre ; for all men must beleeve , what he asserteth ; and punctually obey his commands , and decrees , though never so untrue , or unjust &c. yea , though quite contrary to the word of god , and to the light of reason : or else they must be excommucate , out of their churches : oh horrible pride ! and yet a spice thereof , is doubtlesse to be found in all men by nature : and in the natures of many , that yet notwithstanding have the grace of god ; for they are partly flesh , and partly spirit ; and it is rare to finde out such a man , as can deny himself , and take up his crosse , and follow christ [ fully : ] that can endure the cross , and despise the shame ; for men can very hardly endure to be [ crost ; ] yea , though they cross and oppose , even the truth of god ; how much lesse then , would they endure the cross , and the shame , and spitting ? and they cannot endure to be despised , and dishonoured , when they doe despise , and dishonour god. how much less then , can they despise the shame , in respect of the honour and glory of god ? but it will be objected , that if this were suffered , any man ( that would ) might implead the minister , if he think he erre , even when he hath preached the truth of god. and so many raise controversies of disputation , when ever they please , to disturbe and trouble the congregations ; amongst which , there are some that are weake , that ought to be received , but not unto controversies of disputation . i answer , as before , that it ought not to be done , but in matters of weight , that may be clearly evinced from the word of god. and if any oppose , or contradict the truth , either through malice , or ignorance ; it may minister occasion to such a minister , to convince gain-sayers ; and then the shame , and dishonour , will light on them , and the truth of god be the more splendorous , in that respect ; and if it be done of malice , his malice that doth it will be discovered ; and if it be through ignorance , he may be convinced , and better informed ; and will have cause of thankfulness , both to god , and the minister , that hath converted him , and resolved his doubts . but if it were the custom , that judicious men might not ( onely in case of erronious doctrine , but of things dark and mysterious , that are not fully cleared in their ministration ) put them on by way of question ; or desire them to illustrate , or clear such a point ; or inlarge themselves in profitable points , and confirm them better ; it might be very profitable to the church of god : for the people will more regard and consider better , of such particular points , as have been the subject of such discourse , and are , as it were , vindicated , and concluded upon ( and so confirmed against all objections , or obscurities whatsoever , even in the publike congregation , and by the most judicious in reputation amongst them ) then of other particulars . and this also would be a meanes , to debar all such from usurping the ministry , that are not able for it : and to convince gainsayers , and stop their mouths ; and to maintain also , and vindicate the truth . yea , it would be a means to seclude all such , as are not men of self-denying spirits , such as the lord jesus requires ; that such should be ( if they would attaine to be his disciples ) especially , his ministers . 4. the independent principles are likewise stricter , in standing fast to such christian liberties ( in other respects ) wherewith jesus christ hath made us free ; then the ways and principles , or at least , the practises of presbyterians will suffer . 1. as first , concerning their independency , in respect of other churches whiles they do well , as rom. 13. 3 , 4. & 1 pet. 3. to 23. & chap. 4. 1 , 2. & 12 , &c. for as it is granted by [ all : ] that in case of necessitie , as when a church liveth where it cannot govern in a presbyterial way , in a classical , and synodical manner ; because there is no churches to combine with , within convenient bonds : or at least , none that are willing . they allow them power within themselves , both for constitution , and dissolution of such a church , as they see occasion , for the benefit of the same ; and the glory of god , and their souls health . and therefore seeing all power both for government , and discipline , is necessarily allowed them in such a case . though they are not against the consociation of true christian churches , for the mutuall advice , and edification , and help , and comfort of one another ; or in case of admonition , &c. yet they utterly deny , to submit themselves , as under the jurisdictive authority of any such churches , save only in case of advice or councel , or admonition ; or at most , as sister churches in every respect , and as they shall convince them from scripture grounds ; that their decrees , or results , are according to god , and to his laws and testimonies , concerning them , either in doctrine , or government . and therefore will not submit , to binde themselves to be ordered or governed , by the votes of such , in any respect , till they first know , what their votes are that they submit unto ; lest they should be enslaved to the wills of men , against their consciences ; which are , or ought to be onely bound by scriptural decrees , or loosed either : and therefore ought not to be submitted to the decrees of men , not infallibly guided , though never so numerous , or wise and learned ; who all may erre , and often do : and therefore ought not to challenge any binding authority , or power whatsoever , or loosing either , but onely in case , and so far forth as they can and doe , even convince the conscience , from scripture evidence , in the name of god , and of the lord jesus christ ; that their decrees are just , and ought to be obeyed , and submitted to : and it is lawfull as well for a church , as a particular man , to goe to the law and to the testimony , as they are injoyn'd . and to search the scriptures dayly , whether those things be so , that are decreed , or taught us ; or that are preached unto us , yea , though by an angel from heaven : and if we finde they teach us another gospel then what we have received , we must let them be accursed . and it is evident , that the apostles , and elders , and the whole church being assembled with one accord ; resolved of nothing , till it was cleared from scripture ; that all assented , and agreed to it , even the whole church , as acts 15. 22 , 25. and it is certaine , that either a particular man , or particualar church , having scriptural grounds , may say as [ they , ] it seemed good to the holy ghost , &c. for what the scripture decrees , the holy ghost decrees . and therefore all assemblies , congregational , presbyterial , classical , synodical , national , or oecumenical , should onely be as this in the acts , to consider of such matters , as vers . 6. and to resolve them from scripture ; that all being assured from scripture ground , may with one accord , passe sentence with them , being fully assured , that it seemeth good to the holy ghost , as well as unto them , what ever is resolved , or decreed , or done in his sacred name . else they are presumptuous and self-willed , and do usurp authority over the church of god ; if they take upon them to binde and loose , and do not make it manifest , as they ought to do , from scripture evidence ; that it seemeth good to the holy ghost , as well as them , coloss . 4. 4. and though it is true , that we ought to obey them that have the oversight of us , and that have the rule over us , and to follow their faith , as hebr. 13. 7 , 17. yet it must be in case , when we know them to be such , as watch for our souls , as they that must give account ; that they may do it with joy , and not with grief . and it must be upon consideration of the end of their conversation : that it is jesus christ yesterday , and to day , and the same for ever . for they that preach unto us the word of god , should not be changeable ; least they carry us about with divers and strange doctrines , as vers . 8. 9. which we must not be , to follow their faith ; nor in obedience unto them , that turne away their ears from the truth , and are turned unto fables , as 2 tim 4. 3 , 4. 1 tim. 6. 3. 4. 5. & 2 tim 3. 2 3 , 4. 2 thes . 3. 6. 7 , 8. and if any come unto us , and bring not the true doctrine , we must not receive him to house , neither bid him god speed , as 2 joh. 10. how much lesse , may such be received as ministers of god ; and maintan'd either by tythes , or other maintenance . and how unlawful is it ( therefore ) either for magistrates , or others , to force maintenance , of any such ; or to limit men by parochiall bounds ; that in case a parish , shall heap to themselves teachers after their owne hearts , having itching ears , that turn from the truth : yet men must be inforced , to maintain such teachers , and to heare them likewise ; and must not withdraw themselves , as the apostle injoynes us ; nor go elsewhere , unless we can remove our habitations also ; which cannot chuse but be sometimes inconvenient ; and to our utter overthrow in wordly respects . all which bondage , is a great infringement to our christian liberty , in them that do it , and ought not to be approved nor assented to , by any that desires to keep a good conscience voyd of offence , both to god and man. reas . for how many thousand parishes , both have been , and are , not onely here , but in other kingdoms , by this means , kept utterly destitute of any spiritual food , for the good of their souls : and that sometimes , even for a whole age together , during the parsons or vicars life , who once enstall'd , can never be removed , if he be conformable , to the government on foot , and can please the greater , or most of the parish ; yea , and though he be never so carnal ; if he have but learning , and an outward form of doctrine and profession , in respect of religion , like the generality of the congregation : though he utterly deny the power of godlinesse ; yet all his parishoners , ( though never so godly and conscientious ) must hold them contented , during such a mans life , for they must allow him his tythes , or maintenance ; and they must not obey the apostles direction , to wit , from such turn away . but they must keep to their own church , and be bound to submit to their own minister , unless they can remove out of such a parish . and so in all likelihood , famish the souls of their whole families ; if god be not mercifull , in stretching forth his immediate hand in an extraordinary unexpected way : [ for the ordinary way ] is by the foolishness of preaching , ( as so the world accounts i● ) to save them that beleeve . and therefore let men say what they will , but there is no other way , to keep such men out , for intruding themselves , and being intruded upon them ; but to let all that are godly , and consciencious , have free liberty , to approve , and receive , or admic , and in stall , whom they generally allow off ; or to dis-approve , reject , turn from , dis-install , or eject , whom they dissavow . for how else can they , in such respects , obey the apostles direction ; and keep a good conscience , void of offence both towards god and man , heb. 13. 8 , 9. 2 tim. 3. 4 , 5. 1 tim. 4. 3 , 4. 2 thess . 3. 6 , 7 , 8. 2 joh. 10. & joh. 10. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , to 16. let any man tell me but [ how ] and i shall silence for ever in that respect . how , i mean , they shall answer these scriptures as they ought to do . if it be promised that the presbyterial govenment will so provide , that none shall be admitted , and approved off , but such as are truly spiritual , and of the most able , and fit for the ministry , that can be found ; and then it need not to trouble the conscience of any man in that respect . i answer , that i cannot beleeve it , till i see it done , or by what means it should be effected ; whiles [ all ] have vote , and power in election , and may , either chuse whom they think good , or be without , all ( i meane ) that have taken the covenant , many of whom , have so little understanding in spiritual things , that they are not thought worthy to receive the sacrament . and how then can such discern , whether men be spiritural and able for the ministy ; or they be but carnal , and such as can know nothing of spiritual things , to wit , of the things of god. as a corinthians , 2. 14. the natural man perceiveth not the things of god , neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discern'd ; to wit , through an eye of faith . but the spiritual man , to wit , a man throughly spiritualized , through faith in god ; discerneth all things , yea , even the deep things of god object . it will be objected , that all that are godly , and truely conscientious , are not able to discern of the fitness of men , for spirituall imployment . and therefore it is more wisdom , to commit the apporveal of all spiritual men , to the wise and learned , and to the elderships , &c. answ . i answer , that he that entreth in by the door , ( which is christ himself , our archbishop , is the shepherd of the sheep ; ) as joh. 10. 2. 9. and to him the porter openeth , and the sheep hear his voice , and he calleth his own sheep by name , and leadeth them out : and when he putteth forth his own sheep , he goeth before them ; and the sheep follow him , for they know his voice . and a stranger will they not follow , but will fly from him ; for they know not the voice of strangers , as vers . 3. 4 , 5. this is the promise , and the plain assertion of christ himself ; that his sheep know his voice , by whomsoever he sendeth it ; for the porter , to wit his ( holy spirit ) openeth their hearts , as he did the heart of lydia , even to hear , and obey , and to follow , and doe ; to imbrace , and to receive , yea , to love , and honour ; even such , who bring them such glad tydings , of life , and peace , and of truth , &c. and therefore , though they be not able to discern , and discover , and judge who is fittest , and the most able ; for such , and such imployment ; yet they can discern , who are sent of god , and bring his message ; so far , at least , as not to follow a stranger : for the voyce of strangers , is strange unto them ; and such as they will not follow : so that the general approbation , of the sheep of christ ; such especially , who are known to be his , is the note of a shepherd that is called of god , and sent to preach ; or that is called to officiate in any place about spiritual things . and though they cannot discern who is fit for office ; yet if the wise , and learned , should appoint them a stranger , or an hireling , and that careth not for them ; or such whose voice they know not , or to whom the porter openeth not : they ought not to follow , but to fly from them , as from thieves and robbers : yea , as sheep from wolves , that would murder , and destroy , and devoure their souls : as vers . 5. 8. 10. 12 , 13. but if this be their duty , as doubtless it is ; if they once discern who are such or such : then it necessarly follows , that they ought not by authority to be otherwise impelled ; but that in such respects , ( as do so highly concern the good of their souls , and the souls of their housholds , and their posterities after them , till the world determine , ) they might have liberty of conscience , as they dare answer it , at the great tribunal ; to deale impartially in all such cases , of such concernment , to approve , or reject , as they think they ought . and as considering themselves , even now already in whatever they doe ; to be before god , and the lord jesus christ , and the elect angels : as 1 tim. 5. 21. and this is a liberty , wherewith jesus christ hath made us free ; to which it is our duty to stand fast . and to beware of such as shall come unto us , in sheeps cloathing , that yet inwardly are ravening wolves . and he hath promised , that we shall know them by their fruits , mat 12. 30 , to 35. and they that would spoil us of any such liberties , are in that respect , to be accounted no better then theeves and robbers : yea , spirituall theeves , that would spoile our soules . and such therefore we ought not to receive , nor to bid them god speed , where they teach such doctrine ; unless in hope that they do it ignorantly : and that we onely receive them , in hope to reduce them , from such dangerous error . if it be objected , that men will not allow any maintenance to such whom they may not have vote in election of ; unless it be compelled or forced from them , which is not warrantable , as hath been said , and proved by some . i answer briefly , that whatever others that are malignant , and enemies to the church of god , will do or refuse , give or with-hold in such a case , that doth not exempt thosewho are godly and conscientious form doing their duties , and from being impartial in such weighty business that concerns the good of their immortal souls ; in which cases all things should be done without partiality or respect of persons . and they ought rather so to joyn themselves , as to maintain a ministry upon their own charges , then to give their sufferage or vote for such to be installed in a place , as ought not to preach . and if it were so , that the truly religious would joyn themselves , and engage in covenant each to others , for this end , that all of them might speak even the same thing , without partiality or respect of persons . there would scarce any accept of a place , but that were either called or approved by them ; nor would they continue against their wills , nor act contrary to their general results from scripture grounds . but whiles they sit loose , and are partially engaged , and do not assemble themselves ( even their own selves ) for these and such like business that concerns them all ; how is it possible that they should know the mindes each of others , or the grounds or reasons upon which they act ? or how to resolve fully , so as all may assent , and be satisfied in conscience from sacred scripture , that so they ought to resolve in such and such cases . and therefore they ought thus to joyn and assemble themselves , and be engaged deeply each unto others , that things of this nature might be justly carried , without partiality or respect of persons , yea , at least in private , if authority will not suffer them to engage in publique ; if there be so many within convenient bounds , as may in any possibility do good this way . 5. they are stricter in maintaining the power , and kingdom , and supremacy of christ , then the presbyterian government ( as in now stands ) will allow or suffer . reas . for though they do allow , that the body of the church should be obedient and subject to the ministers and elders of the same , so far forth as they hold forth the word and voyce of christ , as joh. 10. 4. and do make it manifest ( as they ought to do ) from the law and testimony , that their ways and words , or judgments , and censures , or proceedings , are right , as in the way of the churches of new england , appers pag. 100. chap. 5. yet in case , when the officers of a church shall err , and commit an offence , or miscarry the business that concerns them all , or that in any respect concerns the glory of god. they make bold to over rule them , and to maintain the truth , and rescue the innocent , or condemn the guilty , and to elect , or eject , receive , or refuse ; yea , to remit or retain , as they finde cause and ground form scripture ; yea , though quite contradictory to the judgments , and decrees , and results of their elders ; and in case of obstinacy , even to proceed to censure and to cast them out , as unsavory salt , if their sin so deserve . and this democracy is necessarily assumed and exercised by the church , in choosing their officers , and joyntly with them in admitting members ; and in censuring , or acquitting , and remitting offenders : and that to preserve the monarchy of christ from antichristian usurpation , lest they should be in forced to let men at their pleasure bear rule over them , and become as men pleasers , and servants of men , as many have done ; and that without all remedy , or hope of remedy , whiles their officers live , as hath been said before , in the like case : and all , because that they had not power within themselves to censure and remove them ; but having their power to seek ( form other churches , or from without their own , ) could never finde it to remove them by , as in conscience they ought . but were forced to yeeld even blinde obedience , and to submit themselves to what ever decrees were imposed on them , whether right or wrong , truth or falshood , good or evil . and what else can be justly expected form the presbyterial government , if they require obedience to what ever they decree or determine by vote , in classis or synod , or congregational presbytery , when they make it not manifest as they ought to do ; from sacred scripture , that such decrees are just , and ought to be executed and obeyed , &c. by all or any whom they do concern , that are under the government , and of the kingdom of christ ? for what is this but to give them liberty for the absolute exercise of arbitary power , after men are chosen to such anoffice ? for what is it but arbitrary power ( in spiritual respect : ) that is not submitted to the word of god , to the lord jesus christ , and to his law and testimony , as well as such is accounted arbitrary power ( in civil respects ) that is not submitted to the laws of the land ? and this cannot chuse but at least sometimes engage or enforce us unto blinde obedience ( if we submit thereto , ) and that unto men , as if we were necessitated to account of them , as if they could not err . and therefore doubtless such ( whoever they are ) that either claim ( as due ) or expect such obedience , do extol themselves even above the apostles , and expect more obedience , and honor , and service , then they ever required , who were ( notwithstanding ) more infallibly guided . for they rather commend , then blamed the bereans , for searching of the scriptures , whether those things were so , that were preached by them . and what may this prove , but not onely the infringement of the churches liberties , but even the just rights and liberties of the subjects , yea , and the priviledg of parliament : for if the parliament were bound , as in duty to god , to establish and confirm what ever a synod , or an assembly of divines , should conclude , or decree amongst themselves , to be just and right in the sight of god , and that without evidence form sacred scripture , what a gross slavery might even their very consciences be subjected to ? for was not this the means of introduction of popery and all superstition that ever was establisht in the christian world ; to wit , obedience unto synods , as if they could not err ? and is it not as dangerous now , lest men should yet err , and mislead the parliament , and the whole kingdom , yea , and all the churches ? are we sure that they are more infallible , then in former ages ? doubtlesse , i say , they ought not to challenge , nor expect or plead for any such obedience , nor that they either do or can do any thing authoritatively indeed , but what they make good and manifest from scripture ; for then onely , and onely so far forth , they may authoritatively say , it seemed good unto the holy ghost and us ; as hath been said before : for even the apostles were but drawn together to consult and consider of those things , neither did they decree , till james stood up and resolved the matter from sacred scripture , by concluding such a result , as to which they all assented : it was not carryed by multiplicity and majority of votes , what should be decreed ; but by the best scripture evidence . neither are any such either fit or worthy to be members of an assembly , synod , or classis , or congregational presbytery , that can be content to let things pass upon slender debate , and without result from scripture grounds upon bare votes , it may be inconsiderately gathered , to be made as decrees , for the churches government , and that about matters in controversie , concerning faith and doctrine , or ways and manners , or any such like . considering that the eyes of the chief seers , in a whole kingdom or nation , yea in the whole universe , may be covered : and the sacred scriptures may be unto them all as a sealed book ; yea , they may account even the great things of gods own law as a strange thing ; as isai . 29. vers . 9. to the end . micah 3. 5 , 6. 7 , 8. hosea 8. 12. and yet may think it strange , that such men as they should either be , or be accounted blinde ; as those that said unto christ , are we blinde also ? and therefore it behoves the magistrates , and all in authority , to restrain and limit them in these respects that so highly concern even the life and death of their immortal souls , and of posterities after them , unto all ages : i say , to restrain and limit them to the law and testimony in what ever decrees they decree to establish : else they are guilty even of the blood of souls , which they lay open to be bought and sold at the will and pleasure of presumptuous men , that are self-willed , and lovers of their own selves , covetous , boasters , proud , &c , of which sort there is many in these last days . 6. they are stricter , and justly too , in keeping themselves within their own sphere , in that they require not obedience from all the inhabitants within parochial , no nor local bonds ; to the decrees of synods , classis , and presbyteries , as jure divino ; for that can never be proved from scripture grounds , to be either duty or lawful , but onely so far forth as their decrees are just , and held forth also from scripture grounds , in the name of god , and the lord jesus christ : to be obeyed , or disobeyed ; not as they tender the displeasure of men , in what ever authority , place , or power , ecclesiasticall , or civil ; but as they [ tender ] the breach of the law of god , or their obedience unto him , or as they fear his wrath , or expect his love , and blessing , &c. neither do they resolve , to deal with all indefinitely , in a spiritual way ; as they are admonished to deal with brethren , matth. 18. to 21. by way of private reproof and admonition ; and after that , to tell it to the church ; before they be unto us as heathens , and publicans ; for many are so to us , even as heathens and publicans ; even in the judgement of charity , and certainty both : being yet without in the apostles sense , 1 cor. 5. 12. and what have we to do with them that are without ; to whom all things ( as yet ) are done in parables , what have we , therefore , to do to judge them , the apostle knew not , that we had any occasion , nor proper interest or power so to do , save only in general in the publike ministry . neither are we injoyned , ( for altogether ) not to company with such ; nor not to eate with such ; if they be but ( fornicators , or covetous , or extortioners , or idolaters of this world , ) as 1 cor. 5. 10 , 11. & chap. 10. 27. for we are not bound to rebuke scorners , and deale with them as brethren , in spiritual respects ; we are only bound to deale with breathren , such who are so called , and accounted of , through their visible profession of christianity : ( not of atheisme , and grosse prophanness ; ) such , who never yet thought themselves fit to receive the sacrament of the lords supper : for how are they within , or in fellowship with us , or in company together , who abhor and hate , and had rather almost be in company with devils , then with such , whose waies are a rebuke unto theirs . and how then shall we in any respect , withdraw from such , who never yet were in company with us , but against their wills ; 1 thes . 3. 6. and how is it proper , to judge , or censure ; or to remit , and pardon , ( as 2 cor. 2. 7 , 8. 1 cor. 5. 12 , 13. joh. 20. 23. ) such who are utterly uncapable of any proper impression , or sence , or dinte of a divine rod ; a spiritual censure , or admonition , or rebuke , &c. yea , or of being remitted , though they outwardly reform , till they inwardly repent , and be at peace with god , not only for open , but for all their sins , open , and secret ; unless men purposely intended to delude their souls : for though for trespass against man , he that is injur'd , upon repentance may forgive it ; as mat. 18. but sins against god , he only can pardon , who sees the heart , and whether they repent indeed . and men can only do it , declaratively and effectually , in his sacred name ; according to the appearance or visibility of their cordiall repentance ( in their apprehension ; ) not for one onely , but for for all their sins , jam. 2. 10 , 11. & 1 sam. 2. 25. and thus much briefly against the presbyterians , for the time present , though i have more particulars to have instanced in ; yet if in these particulars , a reconcilement were made , the rest would follow with more ease . but these things being true , as i am confident that any rational man ( that will but seriously consider of these particulars , with the grounds and reasons , that are here alledged , with an impartial eye ) will freely confess , that the independents are justly stricter , and ought so to be , in these particulars ; and that their grounds and reasons are sound and substantiall for so doing , and that the magistrate ought not to restrain or limit them , in the prosecution of these just , and lawful , and godly ends : but to tollerate , and protect them , and incourage them hereunto , by all possible means : yea , though in these respects , they be manifestly stricter then the presbyterial government , as it now stands , will permit and suffer . and now having done with the presbyterians , for the time present , in behalf of the independents : i shall turn my hand to the independents , in behalf of presbyterians ; for though i cannot charitably conceit them , in respect of their ends ; to wit , that they are not good ; yet , i have something against them , in respect of their ways , and dare not be partial in the things of god ; but must speak out , according to my apprehension , as well against them , as the presbyterians ; for it is dangerous to be partial in the law , or respect persons . job . 32. 22. 1. and first then , though it is not denyed , but that in case of necessity such a congregation so incorporated , ( being men of fidelity ; faithful men ) may ordain themselves pastors , elders , and deacons , as they stand in need , and exercise all spiritual jurisdictive power amongst themselves , as they see cause , for the glory of god , and the churches good . for in case , when no other pastors of other churches can conveniently be obtained to assist them therein , to whom it more fitly and properly appertains , being called by the church so to do ; it is confessed they may doe it themselves . reas . but in ordinary propriety , as the apostle saith , the lesse is blessed of the greater ; for he so concludes , hebr. 6. 7. that it is so without contradiction , proving that melchisedec was greater then abraham , because he blessed him , vers . 4. 7. argu. but ordination by imposition of hands , is an act of blessing ; and is effectual to confer a blessing in the name of god , if administred in faith , matth. 18. 19. though otherwise not , as jam. 1. 6 , 7 , 8. conseq . 1. and therefore by consequence , the more faithful that men are , and the more likely , such their blessing is to be effectual , and to be conferred indeed ; as many instances mght easily be produced . conseq . 2. and therefore it follows , that the most faithful that can be obtained , is the most fit for such an act ; because it is most likely , that such their blessing will be effectuall , the more and rather . reas . and therefore it was , that john the baptist did , according to modesty , object against christ , when he came to his baptisme , i have need ( saith he ) to be baptized of thee , and commest thou to me ? but our saviour answered , that he should let be now , because that thus it became them , to fulfil all righteousnesse . and the reason was , because in common reputation ( at that time ) iohn was greater then he : for all men held that iohn was a prophet : but christ as yet had not shewed forth his glory , in so eminent a manner , as to be so esteemed . object . but it is objected , that a [ church of beleevers ] or a company of the [ presbytery ] are , in comon reputation , greater then [ one , ] to wit , any [ one ] man whom they may ordain , and so in that respect , the lesse is blessed of the greater , as hebr. 6. 7. for two , ( saith solomon ) are better then one . and the promise is made unto two or three . mat. 18. therefore it follows , if two or three be preferred to one , that a whole church of faithful men are better then two or three , and greater in esteem , and their prayers , or blessings , are the more likely to be valide and effectual . and therefore it is not unfit in that respect , but proper and comely , and so much the more hopeful , that such their blessing , through faith in god , will be effectual , though they want the assistance of some more eminent men ( then such yet are ) whom they do ordain : the prayer of a righteous man availeth much , saith james , if it be fervent , jam. 5. 16. and how much more available may we expect the prayers of a whole church will be with god , as it was when peter was in prison ? act. 12. 5. ans . i answer briefly , that it is not unlawful , but may be done , and not improperly , in case of necessity , as hath been said . but , first , observe , that the addition of some more eminent men to be , as it were , the mouth and hands of such a whole church , doth not deminish , but encrease their number of faithful men , if such can be obtain'd to assist them therein , and so by their own argument so much greater blessings are likely to be conferred at their request . and it may he sometimes that the prayers of some one man being more earnest then the rest , may obtain the blessing , or some particular request , rather then all the rest ; as it is said of elias , james 5. 17. 18. and 2 kings 2. 12. the charrets and horsemen of israel . reas . for it is not because of the number of intercessors , nor because of the righteousness [ only ] of such , or so many as shall pray unto him , that he grants their request ; but it is rather because of their faithfulness and fervency in such very particular for which they pray , as jam. 1. 6 , 7 , 8. & chap. 5. 16. for it sometimes falls out , that men that are the most faithful ordinarily , yet may in some particulars be more diffident then the weakest , so that their faith failing them , they begin to sink ; as peter on the water , though he had walked already , through the power of god , yet the sight of a storm struck him into doubts ; and you know the place where it is said of christ himself , that he [ could ] do no great works there , because of their unbelief . and therefore it is not the bare form of ordination , though administred by never so many , or never so eminent men , that can prevail for a blessing on such or such a man ; but it is the fervency and faithfulness of such who do ordain them that obtains the blessing ; for by how much stronger men are in faith in that very particular , so much the more powerful they are with god to obtain his blessing , and the presence and power of the holy ghost to be in greater measure conferred upon him to enlarge and enable him for such a work , and for service to his name in such an office . and therefore such men , who in the general apprehension of such a church , are the most faithful and fervent in spirit that can be obtain'd , and the most inward and familiar with god , ought to be requested , and sought unto by such a church to assist them in ordination of any such officer , and to be their mouth and hands unto god , even the mouth and hands of the whole church , who ( as it is granted ) ought to be present , and to joyn in prayer together with them . and thus to do , is not to [ aliene ] their own liberties in that respect , for they may do it themselves in case of necessity , as hath been said , when there is not to be had more eminent and faithful men then is amongst themselves , or if they cannot obtain them : for it doth not take such liberties from them , nor power to use them , in case of necessity , because that others assist them at their request , no more then another minister , praying or preaching together with them at their request , takes away from them their proper liberty of praying themselves . and therefore i shall much wonder if any godly consciencious man shall oppose this doctrine , though the custom hath been ( as they were instructed by some of their ministers ) to practise otherwise : yea , and though i also speak it in behalf of those of the presbyterial way , for i do not speak it in behalf of men ; but in behalf of the truth , which i ought to esteem before all the men on the face of the earth ; i therefore speak it , because i beleeve , that thus it becometh them , to fulfil all righteousness : for greatness in reputation ought to be preferred in such publike ministrations above greatness in deed , for christ was greater [ in deed ] then john the baptist , though not in [ reputation ] at the time of his baptism , and therefore so it became them ; to fulfill all righteousness , mat. 3. 24 , 15. for without all contradiction the less is blessed of the greater in ordinary ways , at least of the greater in reputation : john had need to be baptized of christ , the less of the greater , to this christ assents ; but john was greater in reputation at that present time , therefore it became them rather to follow the general reputation , then the inherent power for baptization , wherein subsisted the greatness in deed in respect of power . for the original of power is only in god , 1 cor. 3. 5. not not in him that planteth , nor in him that watereth : and is but apprehended , or fetched out by faith , as by an immediate hand , and accordingly administred , according to the strength or measure of faith , in such an instrument , by whom such blessing or benefit whatsoever is mediately administred . it was not properly the spirit of moses that was put upon the elders , numb . 11. though it was so called , vers . 17. even the spirit that was on him ; but it was more properly even the spirit of the lord , as vers . 29. that rested on the elders , and on moses both ; and in that respect only it is properly said , that the lord took off the spirit that was on him , and put it upon them , as vers . 25. 26 , 17. for it was no other but the self-same spirit , even the spirit of god , though measured out as it pleased him , as 1 cor. 12. we must not therefore expect the blessing , because administred in such a way , or in such a manner , no , nor by faithful men , ( though we may the rather , ) but because administred through faith indeed , in the name of god , whom we ought to acknowledg as the onely fountain and original spring from whence it is derived , and variously disperst , as it pleaseth him , as jam. 1. 16 , 17 , 18. and is not in the power or custody of men to give the encrease , or blessing indeed , as 1 cor. 3. 7. and therefore all the ordinances ( though never so purely and properly administred , in respect of order , and forms of government or administrations ) will be utterly vain , invalid , empty , fruitless , and unprofitable , unless ministred in faith , yea , through faith in god , and the lord jesus christ , and that in every particular : for it is not sufficient that such administrators have faith in god for the saving of their souls , but they must have faith to apprehend his promises , concerning such particulars , whatever they administer , or desire of god to be done for them upon such occasions ; or else they may not expect to receive such things , as jam. 1. 6 , 7. and therefore the most faithful is weak enough for the meanest administration in the church of god. and therefore the end of ordination being the blessing , the means to attain it should be so ordered , as is most likely to attain unto , or acquire this end : we should so run , that we might obtain : for , in such publique cases , men often take gods name in vain for want of ayming chiefly at the proper end of any service , duty , or ordinance that men take in hand . but thus much briefly for this particular , because i hope no man will contradict what is here asserted . 2. a second thing that i have against the independent government , is briefly this , to wit , that though they do allow of consociation of churches for advice and counsel , and for the help and encouragement , resolving , comforting , &c. or for the discouragement , forsaking , and conviction , or withdrawing from , as need requires : yet they do not allow of any authoritative acting , by an assembly of such churches , either for , or against any particular church , though need require so to do ; but do account it sufficient to withdraw communion , if they so deserve , according to mat. 18. as the direction is , to deal with a brother in case of trespass , not considering that this directory is onely given out , how we ought to deal , in case of trespass , against man , one brother against another , and that in such trespasses as deserve not excommunication out of such a church , but a private withdrawing of brotherly fellowship by that particular man against whom the trespass is committed , to wit , let him be unto thee as an heathen man , and as a publican , vers . 17. it is not said , that either such a man , or any other , for trespass properly against man , should be excommunicated from the publique ordinances ; but they are first admonished to note such by a letter , and have no company with them , that they might be ashamed , to see how that will work to bring them to repentance ; but they must not for such faults account them as enemies , but admonish them as brethren , as 2 thess . 3. 14 , 15. and bear them patiently , yea , though we think of them , that they are evil men , 2 tim. 2. 24 , 25 , 26. for we may easily be deceived , especially in our own cause , and be apt to judg and censure without moderation : and excommunication ought onely to be administred in case of sin against god , when we can scarce , in the judgment of charity , think any better of them , but that they are wicked men , cast out from amongst your selves : that [ wicked man ] saith the apostle , 1 cor. 5. 13. and of this sort also were hymeneus and alexander , who had made shipwrack of faith , and fell to blasphemy ; besides which , or for such like gross and notorious sins , and that against god , we read not of any that were delivered unto satan like those , 1 tim. 1. 19 , 20. argu. but this directory of our blessed saviour , going no further but to private withdrawing , in case of trespass , brother against brother , is not sufficient to direct the church how she ought to deal , in case of sins deserving that dreadful sentence of excommunication : but we must likewise take in , for further direction , that 1 cor. 5. and many other scriptures , as you shall hear anon . consequ . therefore it follows , that as a particular church is bound as well to deal with offendors ( if they so deserve ) by that heavy sentence of excommunication , as withdraw their communion and fellowship from them in case of lesser sins : even so in like case , churches consociated ought to deal with offending churches ( if they so deserve ) by that heavy sentence of excommunication , as well as withdraw their communion from them in case of lesser sins : and the churches censures of excommunication ought not to be bounded within the verge of particular churches against particular persons ; but ought to be executed against whole churches by the sister churches ( consociated and assembled for that very end ) if their sin so deserve ; as in case of toleration of blaspemy , or idolatry , or sabbath-breaking , or adultery , and such like gross prophaness in the members of the church , as 1 cor. 5. 10 , 11 , 12. and do not censure them for it . and take notice by the way , that i therefore say [ in the members of the church ] because such who are profane , and never professed repentance , nor faith in god , and the lord jesus christ , though they come to the church , yet they are not capable of excommunication , because that even in the judgment of charity they are as yet without , in the apostles sence , and are not of such as are called brethren ; but being already without , and in the power , and slavery , and captivity of satan , need no more casting out , nor delivering unto him : but it were gross foolery to spend the churches censures upon such wicked men , neither could it be expected to be effectual against them , nor take impression on them ; and therefore the apostle doth not for altogether inhibit our companying together with such , as vers . 10. but with such ( amongst such ) as are called brethren ; with such a one , that they should not eat : whereas in another place , if any man that beleeved not invited them to a feast , if they were disposed to go , they might go ; for he giveth them no inhibition in that case , but onely a directory how to carry themselves , as 1 cor. 10. 27. and it is but a foolish thing to bring men to the stool of repentance for some one particular notorious sin , till they can also profess and seriously too , as before god , that they repent for all , both secret and open , and do hope for pardon . and it is but a deluding of mens consciences , to put them in hope of pardon for one , till they repent for all , and do resolve to forsake them , jam. 2. 10. 11. and thus much by the way ; i do now come to the point , and do briefly assert : assert . that it is the duty of true christian chuches , joyntly consociate , or assembled together , not only to admonish , and withdraw communion , as hath been said ; and as it is granted by mr. cotton , in the way of the churches of n. e. pag. 109. sect. 6. to wit , that they look at it , as their duty , to be faithfull one church to another ; in like sort , as the brethren of one church are called to be faithful one towards another ; in regard that churches enjoy , and professe communion one with another , as well as brethren of a particular church ; alledging cant. 8. 8. & 2 cor. 11. 28. look also sect. 7. but that therefore , it likewise follows , even from their own argument ; that an assembly of churches , is also bound to deliver unto satan , in the name of god , and the lord jesus christ , and by his power &c. any such church , as shall so deserve ; or the officers , or ministers of any such church , who shall so deserve , if their own church shall neglect to do it ; else , they deal not faithfully with such ministers , or brethren , not with such a church , as in duty they are bound , 1 cor. 5. after the apostles doctrine and example , 1 tim. 5. 19. 20. as hath been said : nay , if they but call themselves brethren , or ministers of christ , rev. 2. 2 , 20. 21. or churches of christ , as chap. 3. 9. yea , jews and are not . they ought , i say , to be dealt with , by divine authority , in the name of christ , as synagogues of satan , as false apostles , as wicked iezebels , as lying brethren ; and so proclaimed ( joyntly ) by the churches , with one consent , and delivered to satan , that they might learn , not to blaspheme , or not to seduce , and deceive the servants , and people of god ; nor call themselves apostles and ministers of christ , when they are not ; or his ministers and embassadors , in such things and messages , wherein they are not ; as revel . 2. 2 , 20. or call themselves jews , or of the people of god , and are nothing so , as chap. 3. 9. but do lye notoriously , and that in the name of christ . i say , the censures of the church ought to pass upon them , in as publike and declarative a way and manner , acco●ding to their sin , as their sin shall deserve ; and that in the name of god , and the lord iesus christ ; whose judgement it is , that ought to be administred , and publikely held forth in his sacred name , with the grounds thereof , from the law and testimony , if men so deserve , even to execration . reas . for the like care , and the like meanes in every respect , is to be used , held forth , and exercised over such sister churches ; whether false or true , if they be so deemed , through their own profession , as is , and ought to be used over particular brethren , by a particular church ; whether such brethren be false or true , that through their own profession , are deemed brethren , or called brethren , as 1 cor. 5. 11. and if admonition , and in some cases excommunication , be ordinances of god , sanctified for the healing of the soules of gods people gone astray ; it were a sacrilegious injury , either to the ministers , or elders , or to whole churches , when they goe astray , to deprive them of the benefit of such wholesome medicines , when the estate of their souls stand in need thereof : as so their own arguments doth plainly resolve , in the way of the churches of n. eng. pag. 101. chap. 5. sect. 6. but it cannot be denyed , but even whole churches may so far apostatize , and go astray , either in life , or doctrine , or government , &c. as well as particular members of a congregation . reas . for suppose all the congregation do not act so wickedly , as to be fornicators , idolaters , or adulterers , &c. yet they may be induced to connive , and indulge , and be accessary with such in a great measure , as the corinthians were , with the incestious person , and therefore were sharply reprehended by the apostle paul. and if after admonition in such cases , as are proper for such gradual proceedings , there follow not repentance , and reformation ; or if any church shall tollerate idolatry , blasphemy , or prophaness , all sister churches ought in such cases , to proceed roundly against them . look in the way of the church of new eng : pag. 93. but for more certain testimony , examine and compare these scriptures following , to wit , 1 cor. 5. 11. 2 cor. 2. 6. deu. 13. 5 , 6 , &c. to the end . exod. 33. 7. acts 13. 45 , 46. iudg. 20. iosh . 7. 13 , 24 , 25 , 26. deut. 27. 15 , &c. ioshua 22. 16 , &c. iere. 48. 10 , mal. 1. 14. and such like many prophetical , popular , and national curses , which are exemplary for us to use in like cases : and they are no other , but the express mind and will of god ; which being unchangeable , ought to be published , and declaratively held forth , as occasion requires ; and the more publike , and the more visible and general that it is , and the more faithfully , and emphatically that it is exprest , and the better it is , and the more likely that it should be effectual for the end thereof ; yea , the more voyces that proclaim it , or assent unto it , with affection of minde , and faith in god , sutable thereunto ; and it is the more available , and acceptable with god , and efficacious and operative on the hearts of men , to deter , and restrain them from any such wickedness . and what need we any more , or more plaine injunction , then the apostle hath given us : to wit , if any man love not the lord jesus christ , let him be had in execration , yea maranatha : 1 cor. 16. 22. 1 tim. 1. 19 , 20. they had once occasion to have used these curses in the name of god , against some members of famous churches in new england ; and some it may be , might finde occasion to use them here , against such spies as bring an evill report upon the land of canaan ; the [ spiritual ] i mean. and doubtless , if used in faith , as they ought , they would be effectual ; for many such spies are culpable of judgement from the hand of god , as wel as these , who dyed of the plague before the lord ; as numb . 14. 36 , 37. yea , good men , whose souls shall be saved , may yet deserve to be made exemplary by the hand of god , in such a case , for the terror of others ; as so ( no doubt ) were nadab , and abihu , and vzza , and others , as we may well hope ; for even aaron himself , was admonished by moses , how to carry himself , lest he also should dye before the lord , if he were provoked , numb . 18 3. and this kinde of divine authority is far more awful , and fit to be used in all such cases ; then carnal , worldly , and humane authority ; as the effects would prove , if ministred in faith , as james 1. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. and by the power of our lord jesus christ , as 1 cor , 5. 4. to wit , through faith in his name ; confidently beleeving , that according to his promise , he will make it effectual ; and ratifie in heaven , what ever they agree on , or binde on earth or denounce , &c. as matth. 18. for if a man have faith in god , yea though never so little , if it be but as a graine of mustard-seed , provided it be concerning such very particulars , is he prayeth for , or desireth to be done ; yea , though it were for removing trees , and planting them in the middest of the sea , it should doubtlesse be effectual , matth. 21. 25. yea , what ever yee aske of god in prayer , beleeve that ye shall receive it , and it shall be given you , saith our savior christ , mar. 11. 22 , 23 , 24. mat. 17. 20. luk. 17. 6. and this divine authority , this power through faith , being ministred in his name , as it ought to be , is a far greater , and more awful authority , then any humane power , or carnal authority , that can be given by men , in what place soever ; for it is indeed the power of our lord and saviour jesus christ , spoken of , 1 cor. 5. 5. it is the power god. mat. 18. 18 , 19 , 20. fetched down from heaven , by the hand of faith . 3. a third thing that i have against the independent government , is their strictness in trial of all , whom they admit to partake of the sacraments . but lest i should be over-tedious , and there being many arguments , which have long been opposed each against other , concerning this maine difference , which if once reconciled , all other differences , would easily be agreed . i shall therefore propose my own apprehensions , partly abreviating what hath formerly been said in some particulars , by way of result , and then shall answer some objections concerning this main difference , and shall so conclude , lest my book should swell to a tedious volumn . after that a particular church is constituted and organiz'd , for administration of all the ordinances they ought to observe ; these ensuing rules , as most consonant with the practice of the apostles , and of all the churches in the primitive times , and most sutable to the word of god , and the rule of charity therein contained ; and to his own ways , held forth to us for our imitation , who profess oour selves to be followers of god as his dear children , and to walke in love , as christ hath loved us ; and do account the end of the commandment to be love , out of a pure heart , and a good conscience , and of faith unfeigned . 1. first , it ought to be their chief care and endeavour , that the preaching of the word ( which is the chief means that god hath appointed for the saving of souls ) be with all diligence , publickly administred , both to beleevers and infidels , even to all comers , with this end , and respect chiefly , that such who are already beleevers , might be edified in faith and love , which are in christ jesus , and that others might be convinced , and converted , and turned to the faith , yea , and that even all such whom god hath ordained to eternal life through jesus christ : for care should be taken , that non should be lost , nor go astray , nor be offened in any respect , that neither bruisedreeds should be broken off , nor smoking flax extinct , or quenched ; nor that which is halting be turned out of the way , but rather healed , and restored , yea blown and kindled , and bound up , and mollified , and helped , and strengthned , by all possible means that god hath appointed in his holy word . 2. secondly , as saving of soul , and edifying of the church , is the chief business to be cared for , and indeavoured by the church , and as the ministry of the word is the chief means tending thereunto : so it necessarily follows , that not only for the present , but for future likewise , provision be made , that none be elected , nor admitted into office , as minister of the word , to labour in the word and doctrine , nor to rule and govern , or minister to the poor , as deacons , &c. but such who are so qualified , as the word of god requires they should ; that so they might not be lead , either by blind guides , or idol shepherds , dumb dogs , devouring wolves , soul-murtherers , false prophets , that sew pillows under all armholes ; and flatter men into a fools paradise , being partial in the law , or profane and scandalous in any respect : as the scripture is large for direction herein , how they ought to be qualified , through faith , and love , which are in christ jesus , act. 6. 3. not any officer , no not the deacons , but care should be taken , that they should be men of honest report , full of the holy ghost and wisdom . 3. thirdly , that in any possibility , this might be secured , and provided for , not only for the present , but for future generations ( as much as possible ) it ought to be the care of every member of that body corporate , that visible church so joyned , and constituted ; that none be admitted , and joyned , or incorporated together with them , either first , or last , either for the time present , or for future generations : but such only , in whom all the members of the said body ( in the judgment of charity ) may justly confide , that they will not , to their knowledge ( either in elections , or ejections , approbations , or results , in any church-busness , either for receiving in , or casting out , or any matter wherein their voice or sufferage is justly requisite , as a member of the body ) deal unjustly or impartially , perfidiously or unfaithfully , but as before god , and the lord jesus christ , and the elect angels ; lest in after times , by means of ungodly men , which might be crept in , if care be not taken , and provision made , to keep such out , they that are ungodly might heap to themselves teachers after their own hearts , such as have been mentioned : and therefore so far forth as such body corporate is in any respect politically joyned , for the good of the whole , every member being part of the whole , and therefore having interest in the whole it self , and that not onely for the good of the rest , but for it self likewise ; and therefore ought in conscience to have vote and sufferage amongst the rest , in all such cases as concern the whole , for the good of all . so every member ought to be careful , that none be admitted as joynt members , and incorporated with them , as a body politique , but such in whom they do and can confide ; that they will not , to their knowledg , in any such case , either deal unfaithfully concerning the whole , or any particular member , in any such respect ; but , as hath been said , for the glory of god , and the good of the body . and not onely so , but tryal should be had concerning their knowledg and spiritual understanding , both in the things of god , and that concern the church , in respect of government and discipline thereof , that they be both sound , and able to discern even of things that differ , in some good measure ; and be likewise conscientious , suitable thereunto . for , as they that are weak ought to be received , though not unto doubtful disputations : so , they that are weak ought to be received , but not unto doubtful elections , and such like business , as necessarily require , that men should understand and know , what they do , when they act therein . and therefore it was , that though all the levites were accepted of god , and taken for all the first born of the children of israel : and given as a gift to aaron and to his sons , from among the children of israel , to do the service of the children of israel in the tabernacle of the congregation : and to make an attonement for the children of israel , that there be no plague among the children of israel : when the children of israel came nigh unto the sanctuary , &c. yet they were not required , as called of god , to go in , and wait on the service of the tabernacle of the congregation , but from twenty five years old and upwards ; and so but to continue till they came to fifty years old , and were then to cease waiting on the service thereof , and should serve no more , as levit. 8. 18 , 19 , 24 , 25. so that it evidently appears , that till they came to ripeness of years , and to a suitable discretion and gravity , for such holy service , it did not appertain unto them to administer in such a service . and so no more it doth to men that are true beleevers , and truly faithful , till they come to maturity and ripeness in knowledg , and have their wits exercised , as the apostle saith , to discern both good and evil . for it is all one , to be led by others that are blinde guides , as to act of our selves ignorantly and blindly ; not knowing what we do , or speak , or whereof we affirm ; for we may speak evil or good , and that injuriously , of the things we know not : and so , through blinde guidance , perish in the ditch . 4. and fourthly , this being so , and that such church affairs are of such weighty consequence and concernment to every member , and for the good of all , and for the saving of souls ; that it is not possible men should be too provident and circumspect in these respects . it is therefore requisite , and that which is the duty of every member of such a body , to take care , that none be admitted to be incorporated , and joyned with them , to have power and vote in the general business , but such onely as are known and approved for faithfulness and sincerity in true christianity , in the practise of piety and of religious service and worship of god in all such duties both private and in publique , as god requires . and though they be thus known and approved by some that are officers and members of such body politique , yet for fuller satisfaction unto all the rest , it will be needful that they should openly and publiquely , before all the church , not onely profess their faith in god , and the lord jesus christ , and their repentance and resolution through the grace of god , to forsake all their sins , and to carry themselves suitable unto such profession both before god and men . but , for further security and satisfaction to all the church , they ought to be engaged , by entering into covenant both with god and the church , to continue faithful and just , and to deal impartially in all such respects , according to their knowledg , as god shall assist and strengthen them so to do ; and thus far , and in these respects , such particular body can never be too careful , nor take too strict tryal of such who are admitted to be members of the same . but if they be not careful and strict herein , the men of this world shall rise up in judgment against them , and condemn them herein ; who in civil corporations are careful and strict , that none be admitted to have vote amongst them , in election of officers , for the government thereof , but such only as ( having served an apprenticeship some certain time ) are experienced amongst them , and practised in their trades , and are so made free ; and that saying of christ is justly verified against all such , that the men of this world are wiser in their generation , then the children of light , and will be applyed in displeasure against them , if they know these things , and will not obey and do accordingly ; yea , even the blood of souls will one day be required even at their hands , if they will not be careful and faithful , and provident in the use of means , which properly tend to the saving or damning of immortal souls . 5. and fifthly , on the other part , for the administration of the sacrament of baptism , and of the lords supper , such particular church ought not to be strict , nor ridged and severe , but with all charity , meekness and patience , bear the infirmities and burdens of others , and may not please themselves ; as these scriptures hold forth unto us , 1 cor. 16. 14. & chap. 13. & chap. 10. 32 , 33. & acts 2. 41. 42. chap. 16. 15. chap. 8. 37. 1 cor. 1. 16. mat. 3. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. and therefore , first , the sacrament of baptism ought to be administred unto all such children , one or both of whose legitimate parents are true beleevers , i mean , beleevers of the true christian faith , though yet for the present their faith is not justifying , in respect of themselves , but meerly historical , as acts 8. 37. if they be not dogs or swine , scorners of , or barkers against the ways of god , and his church and people . and this also is but only to be expected to be held forth or manifested to the church in the serious and publike profession and acknowledgment thereof in the publike congregation . for it was no more that philip required of the eunuch , and peter of the jaylor , whose whole houshold was baptized of him upon such profession : yea , though they be such men who are not admittable to the blessed sacrament of the lords supper , by reason of scandal , which may lie upon them , yet if they earnestly desiring the salvation of their children , and being such who , in their minority , were baptized likewise , and professing a purpose to amend their ways , and turn unto god , they ought not to be put back , but to be baptized , and their parents admonished how they ought to instruct them and bring them up , and that they themselves also should bring forth fruits meet for repentance , as the covenant of god made with them in baptism in their minority requireth of them , if they will not be accounted coveant-breakers both with god and man ; and so their charge lyeth even at their own doors , and the minister is clear , and the church satisfied , if it be serious and in publike , &c , for all outward ordinances ought to be administred according to the judgment of charity , and ought not to be restrained to the judgment of certainty , but according to love or charity , the properties whereof are not to think evil , but to beleeve all things , hope all things , and to take all things in the better part , and not to judg or censure according to the appearance , but righteous judgment , and as we can make it manifest that we ought so to judg . 2. and secondly , in like manner for administration of the blessed sacrament of the lords supper , it is only needful that such who would be admitted to partake of it , should in the publike congregation make open profession of the true christian faith , and confession of , and repentance for their sins , with a resolution to abandon and forsake them , and to walk worthy of that vocation whereunto they are called of god , and of such communion and fellowship with the church of god whereto they are admitted . provided always , that they be admonished beforehand of the danger and judgment that they are liable unto ( if they either for the present shal deal hypocritically with the church of god in such publike profession , & do but lye and dissemble before god & men ) as did but justly befall ananias and sapphirah : and likewise of the judgment and censure that the church is bound publikly to denounce & pronounce against them in suspending them again from such communion ; if they turn again with the dog to his vomit , and with the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire , and will not be reclaimed by gentle means to forsake their sins , and so the fault shall lie at their own doors , if they do dissemble , or turn again ; and both the minister and the church is guiltless herein before god and men , for they cannot justly deny them the ordinance , though they have sinned notoriously , if they freely confess such their notorious sins , and profess repentance , and a full purpose of amendment of life , and that they are perswaded that god hath pardoned , and doth and will accept them in jesus christ , and save their souls . for what know the ministers , or the whole church , but that they are converted , and truned unto god with all their hearts , if they so profess ? and upon what grounds can they lawfully deny to administer the same unto any such , though their sins aforetime have been as scarlet or crimson dye in the sight of men ? and who knoweth but such publike engagement may oblige them in conscience for future time , and for fear of the judgment of god against them , to keep their covenant , & amend their lives , and turn unto god , and cleave unto him even with all their hearts , and find mercy with him ; whereas on the contrary , if they should be rejected , or deferred and rebuked , and not accepted and beleeved , when they so profess , they should do as much as in them lyeth , even to destroy their weak faith , and to quench the sparkles of their smoaking flax , and break in peeces such broken reeds , whom , for ought we know , god hath freely accepted and received unto mercy , and for whom christ hath dyed , and ordained such ordinances to encrease and strengthen their feeble faith , as well as for the strong and most faithful members of the church of god : for who would have thought that christ should have called zachous , the publican , and dined with him , rather then any of the faithful and godly people of the jews at jerusalem , who doubtless beleeved as well as he , and to have eaten and drunken with publicans and sinners ? but he gives the reason , for he came not to call the righteous , but sinners to repentance , &c. but it will be objected , 1. that these are novel distinctions and divisions , that some should be admitted to have their children baptized , and neither of the parents admitted as yet to the sacrament of the lords supper . 2. and again secondly , that some should be admitted to the sacrament of the lords supper , and yet not be admitted to be incorporated members of that particular church , nor have votes in elections , and admissions or ejections , and censures , &c. as the members have ; this is novel and strange . i answer , that it is no more novel , then the sacred scripture and primitive examples , as i nothing doubt , but to make it manifest ; and that these distinctions and divisions are of absolute necessity in a church rightly constituted , and governed , and disciplined ; and the ordinances of god rightly administred , both to the weak and strong , as they ought to be . 1. and first then , i shall endeavor to make it good , that the children of such have been baptized by the apostles themselves , upon bare profession of historical faith , without either confession of their sins , or profession of their repentance , and a resolution of amendment of life , that we read of in scripture . and in my apprehension , this is either clear form the baptism of the iaylors houshold , and from the ordinary tender of baptism to the whole housholds of all that professed bare historical faith , to wit , that jesus christ is the son of god ; or else our grounds are to seek for the baptism of infants , acts 16. 15 , 31 , to 34. and acts 8 37. and if they be such parents , who have been baptized in their minority , their childrens case is no other , but in equal respect with the grand children of such parents whose grand-fathers are holy , but their own parents profane , who yet ordinarily are accounted admitable . 2. and secondly , concerning admittance of all to the sacrament of the lord supper , that do desire admittance , and will in the publique congregation profess a true justifying , and lively faith in jesus christ ; and if their sins have been notorious , do freely confess them , and profess repentance , and a resolution of amendment of life : i cannot see how any church can deny to admit them , whatever they have been in former times ; but that they ought to administer the outward ordinance upon that ground , without any further tryal or examination ; and ought not to defer the acceptance of them , with all brotherly love , and kinde respects , as dear brethren ; for so in the judgment of charity ( seeing they cannot know the contrary of certainty ) they ought to judg , as hath been said before : and there was never more required of any in the primitive times , as 1 cor. 16. 14. & chap. 13. & chap. 10. 32 , 33. & acts 2. 41 , 42. i shall therefore engage any that oppose this doctrine , to shew a scriptural example on the one hand , as there is many on the other . 3. but thirdly , that all these should , at their first admission to the outward ordinances , being but babes in christ , be likewise admitted as visible saints , and members of a visible church , and should so be approved of by such a church and every member thereof , and incorporated with them politically to have power and vote in elections , &c. ( in my apprehension ) were very absurd . 1. for , first , till their sanctification be visible indeed unto such a church , how can they approve them as visible saints ? this were deeply to engage the members of the church to dissemble their judgments , which is not lawful , for they must lay aside all guile and dissimulation , as well as all uncharitableness , in judging of one another , as 1 pet. 2. 1. 2. and secondly , they ought not to make any judgment at all , but leave it to god , whether they stand or fall to their own masters ; but in cases of certainty , in which they have good ground for a full perswasion this way or that way , lest by any means , they should wrong their brethren , or the church of god ; for they should sometimes quench the smoking flax , and break also the bruised reed ; and sometime again disparage and disgrace the judgment of the church by approving such as do but deal hypocritically . 3. and thirdly , this were as much as if the levites should all have been admited to attend on the service of the tabernacle of the congregation from their very childhood , as well as after that they were come to years of discretion : for the case is justly paralel , as these scriptures will prove , levit. 8. 18 , 19. 24 , 25. and 1 pet. 2. 5 , 9. rev. 1. 6. reas . for thus i compare them , all the elect that are built upon christ by a lively faith , are lively stones built up a spiritual house , an holy priesthood , to offer up spiritual sacrifice , acceptable to god by jesus christ , 1 pet. 2. 5. & chap. 1. 2. so that all beleevers are accounted as priests , even form their first ingrafting into christ by faith. but as there was priests of divers orders ; so also ought the true beleevers to be distinguished ; i compare therefore the newly converted to the levites in their minority , till they came to years ; and all the grown christians , that are experienced in the trade and practise of christianity , to the levites , when they came to years of discretion : and all the elders and officers , elected by the church , i compare to the priests , the sons of aaron ; and so the ministers to aaron himself ; and who knoweth but that the lord jesus christ will govern his church after these examples paralel hereto , seeing the apostle peter doth thus compare them as resembling the priesthood ? 1 pet. 2. 5 , 9. & chap. 1. 2. as hath been said before . 4. and fourthly , this double reception is clear also , in my apprehension , from the apostles own words ; them that are weak ( saith he ) receive , but not unto doubtful disputations ; and therefore by consequence not to act , or vote , or exercise power in doubtful elections , and intricate business , which , for want of understanding , they are not able for , till their wits be exercised in spiritual things to discern both good and evil . it is not proper to admit them , or approve them as joynt members of such body politick , till all the rest of the members be in some good measure satisfied , both of their abilities sutable , and of the sincerity of their hearts and intentions for the good of the same . but for further satisfaction , that these are no novel distinctions or divisions of the church , but of ancient use in the policy of the churches in the primitive times : consider the words of origen , alledged against the remonstrant , who recites the words of origen to be these , to wit , that it was the custom of the christian teachers first to examine such as desired to hear them , of whom there were two orders . the first were catechumeni , or beginners . the other was of such as were more perfect . among whom there were some or dained to enquire into the life and manners of such as are admitted into the church . that they may banish such from the publike assembly , that perpetrate scandalous acts . i say , let it be considered , whether the policy of the church in those times was not justly paralel to that which hath been said , and whether it be not also sutable to the policy of some civil corporations , who ought to be followed in all wise policies , that may tend for good of a body spiritual , as hath been said . consider therefore whether those 〈◊〉 or [ beginners ] of which origen spake , were not like [ appren●io●● ] that had not served out their time in a city or corporation , and therefore had no voyce in election of officers as majors and aldermen , and those of the common counce : and secondly , whether those whom he speaketh of , that were more perfect , were not like free-men of a city , who have a vote in election of officers for the government of the whole , and of a common-councel , &c. and thirdly , whether those that were chosen and ordained out of that order , which they accounted more perfect , whose office , to which they were ordained , was to enquire into the life and manners of the people , and to banish , &c. were not like the aldermen and common-councel of a city , to whom all is committed ? and fourthly , whether the christian teachers of those times were not over all , as majors of cities , who are chosen by vote of all the freemen , and of none but freemen ; for apprentices have no vote , till their freedom be examined , and approved likewise ? and the children of light ought to be as wise in their generation as the men of this world ; and the church is compared to a city or corporation : so that the paralels in every particular do hold correspondency both with the levitical priesthood , to whom the apostle compares the church , and to the practise of the churches in the primitive times , is origen relates them , and to the civil government of bodies corporated , and to the reason and end of all policy civil and ecclesiastick , to wit , the good , and benefit , and safety of the whole . 1. as first , those that upon profession of the true christian faith , and repentance for their sins , and or a resolution to amend their lives , are admitted to the sacrament of the lords supper ; are justly paralel to all the levites , that , during their minority , were not admitted to attend upon the service of the tubernacte : and they are justly paralel to those that , in the primitive times , were called cateemement or beginners : and they are justly paralel to apprentices in a city that have not served out their time : and they hold correspondency with the reason and end of all government and policy , which is the good of the whole : for as the heir , so long as he is a child , differeth nothing from a servant , though he be lord of all , but is under tusors and governors , till the time appointed of the fat , her , as the apostle saith in a case not unsutable ; so for the veny same reason , there being a childhood and minority in [ grace ] as well as [ nature , ] reason tells us , that it is not fit , nor good , nor safe , nor likely to tend for the good of the body ; that power of government , or vote in elections should be committed unto such , who are not yet capable of such a business , or are doubted of , whether they do intend the good of the whole , no more then women are to have vote amongst them , nor any specified in these parallels instanced in . 2. and secondly , those who are admitted , not only to the sacrament , but to be incorporated as joynt members , of a particular church , upon such trial and approbation , as hath heerv said , and justly parallel to all the levites , that being come to yeare of discretion , and gravity , were admitted to attend on the service of the tabernacle , if without blemish . and they are justly parrallel , to those in the primitive times , that were more perfect then the beginners . and they are justly parallel , to the freemen of a citie , who have votes in elections , and out of whom the common councel is chosen , as their representatives ; and to act for them as neeed requires . 3. and thirdly , the elders chosen , by all the joynt members of such a particular church , and ordained ; &c. are justly parallel to the sons of aaron , to whom belonged the priesthood , in a peculiar manner , above the rest of the sons of levi , for they were anointed with the holy oyle , as well as aaron , levit. 8. 30 , 31. and were ordained , and consecrated to the priests office . and they are justly parallel , to those that were chosen and ordained in the primitive times , to look into the lives , and manners of such as were admitted into the church , and to banish , &c. and they are justly parallel , to the aldermen of a citie or corporation . 4. and fourthly , the ministers of the churches , that are chosen by the eldens , and all the rest of the body , numb . 4. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 27. are justly parallel , to aaron the chief priest , who figuratively represented the lord jesus christ , and governed , and ministred in his sacred name , and was above his sons . and they are iustly parallel , to the teachers in the primitive times , who were chief in government , as well as in all other ministrations , in the name of god , and the lord jesus christ ; and therefore are called angels . revel . 2. and they are also parallel , the to majors of cities ; who though they are chief in power and command , yet it is by consent , and according to the agreement ; both of the aldermen , and of the common councel , who are chosen by the freemen as well as the major , for the agitation and transaction of all their businesse , for the good of all . but it will be objected on the other part , that this publique profession of faith , and repentance , and of a resolution to amend our lives , and to walke worthy of such vocation , will be thought too much , considering that many both men and women , are bashfull , and timorous , and unfit to speak , and declare themselves in the open congregation . answ . i answer briefly , that they may come before hand to the ministers and elders , and signifie their minds and desires unto them , and desire them to express so much in publike on their behalf , to satifie the congregation of their desires and resolutions , and of their repentance , and hope in these respects , and it will be sufficient , that they testifie their assent to what they express for them , and in their names and behalf . and how can the whole congregation be more easily satified in these respects , that men are cordial and sincere in such desires , then by doing it publikely in the open congregation , who may all beare witness of such profession ? and if they turn back , and live not sutable in some good measure , they may all joyne in their publike censure , in like manner , as in their admittance . and it cannot be denyed , but that which is the duty of every man and woman to beleeve , and do , before he approach to receive the sacrament ; that he ought not to deny , to profess in publike before all the congregation , that are of that profession , with whom he desires communion . and no man will deny , but that these ensuing duties are requisite , and necessary to be beleeved and done , before we approach to this ordinance . 1. first , repentance for all our sins , with confession of them , such as have been notorious and publike , if they be objected against us , even in the publike congregation ; with a resoltuion to forsake them , and amend our lives , &c. 2. faith is a necessary duty , before we approach to receive the sacrament of the lords supper ; for without faith we cannot receive the things signified ; we cannot eate the flesh , and drinke the blood of the lord jesus christ , but by a lively faith. for the outward bread and wine , being but the sacrament or signe thereof , is not the thing it self , that is thereby signified ; for the one may be eaten by dogs and swine , but the other cannot , but by him onely that hath true justifying and saving faith. and therefore this faith must at least be [ professed , ] else the most charitable judgement cannot think them prepared for this ordinance , if they deny to profess it before the whole church . 3. thirdly , love is also a necessary duty ; love unto god , and the lord jesus christ . and love to our brethren , and neighbours , and the whole church of god. for a true faith worketh by love ; and he that loveth not , knoweth not god ; for god is love , and he that loveth not his brother , abideth in death , &c. and therefore no man is fit to receive the sacrament , that is not reconciled , both to god and men , and in charity with all , as these scriptures shew . but it will be objected , that if all children of such beleeving parents , who outwardly profess , that jesus christ is the son of god , must be admitted to the christian baptism ; then , all must be admitted without distinction : for all will profess , that they so beleeve , though they be never so wicked and malicious enemies to the church of god , and even unto christ himself ; but our holy things must not be given unto dogs and swine , mat. 7. 6. i answer . true , if they be dogs or swine ; that is to say , if they be such , as bark against , and speake evill of the waies of god , and of his name and truth , or of his ministers , or disciples , and children , &c. for righteousness sake : they may , and ought to be excluded from all such priviledges , and their children likewise . or if they be despisers and scorners of such holy things ; turning with the dog to his vomit , and with the saw that was washed to her wallowing in the mire ; they may be excluded , and ought so to be , if they can be proved apparently to be such . but as the lord inhibited the condemning of any man , or putting him to death under two or three witnesses : yea , though one witness , might never so fully assert and assure it to the judgements of men , yet it must not stand . even so also , it must either be apparent , and clearly witnessed . or it is not sufficient to exclude their children from their outward ordinance ; they themselves being such , who have been baptized in their minority : for they are no other but in like condition with grandchildren of godly parents , who are not approved as actuall beleevers , and yet their children are admitted unto baptisme ; if they be not so profane , as to account them dogs , or swine , &c. as hath been said . if they turn not to be enemies to the church of god. he that is not against us , is with us , saith christ . object . but it will be objected ; if the root be not holy , how may we expect that the branches should . but the apostle plainly asserteth it , that such , whose parents are both of them unbeleeving , are unclean . now this he only meaneth , that they are outwardly to be accounted unclean ; for he doth not so judge , as if all were reprobates , that are borne of such parents , but that they are not to be admitted , as the children of the church , to the outward priviledges , till their hearts be purified through faith in god , when they come to years : and therefore this doctrine , is quite contrary to the apostles assertion . i answer briefly , that i list not to be contentious in this matter ; for in this case , as no man ought to be compell'd to bring his children unto christian baptisme ; so no man ought to be compell'd to baptize any ; but to doe in these things , as their charitable judgments shall engage them in conscience of their duty unto god , and to their christian neighbours , and to the church , &c. for there is strong arguments on both sides , the quintessence whereof , i shall briefly propose on both parties , and leave them to their consciences , to engage them to either , as they think best : and first then , for answer to this precedent objection , i do confesse that this argument were unanswerable , if it were certain that the apostle spak it , of such beleevers , as have true visible , saving , and justifying faith : and that such as they can likewise demonstrate for satisfying of the church that they are such beleevers . but if the apostle only mean it , of such a faith , as upon profession whereof , the ennuch was admitted ; to wit , a beleeving that jesus christ is the son of god. and that there is no name given under heaven , by which we can be saved , but the name of jesus christ. if such as these , i say , be the beleevers , intended by the holy ghost in this place , then we remain still , in the same dubitations as we were before . and so all that profess ; yea , or do but confess , that jesus christ is the son of god , must be accounted in the judgement of charity , as born of god , because that flesh and bloud could never have revealed so much unto them , as 1 john 4. 2. as christ said unto peter . provided always , that such their profession be serious and cordial , at the least , outwardly . object . but it will be objected , that abraham recived the signe of circumcision a seal of the righteousness of faith , which he had when he was uncircumcised , rom. 4. 11. conseq . therefore it followes , that their seal of the now covenart , to wit , baptisme , should not be administred unto any but such , or to their seed , that have faith before , as abraham had , to set this seal to . answ . i answer , that this argument migh likewise hold the better ; if the faith here spoken off , vers . 3. were beleeving in god , to justification . but it is but as the other before spoken off : it is but said ; abraham beleeved god , and it was imputed to him for righteousness . now beleeving god , that what ever he promiseth shall come to passe . and beleeving in god unto justification , are far different ; for the devils had the first but only the elect do attain to the second . for even abraham himself , as the apostle saith , was justified declaratively by works , and not by faith onely ; namely , when he had offered his sonne upon the altar , james 2. 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24. conseq . therefore it follows , that this faith also , though it was imputed unto him for righteousness , and shall also be imputed to all that so beleeve god. yet it is of it self but a bare historical , and only an outward historical profession in the sight of men , and it is no more but such as the devils have , and therefore tremble ; but it is not saving and justifying faith , till men can apply the promises of god , through jesus christ , peculiarly to themselves , as to beleeve that god is [ their god , ] and that christ is [ their saviour , ] which many of the elect can hardly attain to till their death beds , their faith is so weak ; but we must not destroy their weak faith , for whom christ dyed ; we must not quench any smoaking flax , nor break asunder the brused reeds , nor turn aside that which yet halteth out of the way ; but it should rather be healed , or bound up , or blown , and kindled by all such ordinances , as might incourage them to hold on , or that might strengthen their faith , for they ought to be dealt with as [ children , ] by such doctrines and principles as are accounted the first principles of the oracles of god , because they have need of milk , more then of strong meat ; and what is baptism , but one of the first principles ? as heb. 5. 12 , 13 , 14. & chap. 6. 1 , 2. yea , baptism is such an ordinance as the apostle paul asserteth plainly , that he was not sent to baptize , but to preach the gospel ; accounting baptism a more inferior ordinance then preaching of the word , though they sometimes minister it . for the ministry of the word is a more spiritual ordiance and ministration , for it is not baptism that now saveth us , to wit , not the putting away of the filth of the flesh , ( which is but the outward sign ) but the answer of a good conscience , when our hearts are purified through faith by the holy ghost . and the word is called , the word of faith which the apostles preached , and they did attend more constantly on the word , and commanded others to administer baptism that were of less esteem for the ministry of the word , that they might not be hindred neither by that , nor by serving of tables , from that spiritual ordinance for the saving of souls . and it is plain from john the baptists confession , that even his baptism was far inferior to that of christs by his holy spirit ; and it is plainly said , that there went out unto him jerusalem , and all judea , and all the region round about jordan , confessing their sins ; yea , such whom he accounted generations of vipens were likewise baptized of him ; for by a continued discourse by way of admonition he speaketh ( even to them ) saying , vers . 11. indeed baptize [ you ] with water to repentance , &c. i mat. 3. 5 , 6 , &c. but it may be objected , that even john the baptist prophesied of christ , that he should baptize them with the holy ghost , and with fire , and so he also did within a few days after his ascension ; and that his fan is in his hand , and that he will throughly purge his floor , and gather his wheat into his garner , but will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire , as vers . 12. and therefore it follows , that though john admitted all that came in a promiscuous manner , yet christ will purge more throughly , and blow away the chaff , when he hath gathered his wheat ; and therefore it appears , that it is his mind that his floor should be throughly purged , and all his wheat garner'd . i answer true , but heed must be taken , that none of the wheat be lost ; it were better to retain the chaff and all , then lose any wheat ; and there is sometimes wheat so clothed with the chaff , that it cannot be unclothed by the threshing instrument , but it will appear like the other chaff ; and again , there is some other chaff that is so like wheat , that you can hardly discern it , till you know it by the weight ; and so it is likewise with men not infallibly guided , they cannot discern to judg at all by the rule of certainty , and therefore of necessity they must only judg by the rule of charity ; till the lord himself shall come , and sit as a refiner and purifier of siver , and shall restore all things , as mal. 3. 3. & chap. 4. 5. 6. i mean , in spirit , first , to restore all things before that great and fearful day of the lord , for every mans work shall be tryed by fire , to wit , [ the fire of his spirit , ] of what sort it is ; and this day of the lord is near at hand ; the fire is a little already kindled , and the light thereof doth a little shine , but our gross combustibles are long in kindling , and there is much water cast upon them by such who should blow them to make them flame , yet such waters shall be dryed up to their prejudice and loss , though they may be saved themselves . it will be objected , that the promise runs both to abraham and his seed , and therefore the seal of circumcision must needs be applyed to all abrahams seed in their generations , till the coming of christ , who was that peculiar seed , in which all nations , yea all families of the earth should be blessed : but now the promise , and so the covenant runs , but to them and their seed that are of the faith of abraham , who , in that respect , is the father of us all ; they that are of faith , the same are the children of abraham ; but not the other . argu. but wicked men that have lived all their life long where the gospel hath been preached , and yet live not only as infidels , but rather like athists : how is the promise and covenant properly sealed unto them , or to their seed , save only so many of them as the lord our god shall call ? how shall it so , so much as seem 〈◊〉 , to apply it to their children , especially considering they do it but of custom , more then conscience , when they bring their children ? and this custom was , it may be , chiefly incur'd by the laws and canons of the church formerly in use , to which impulsive means was adjoyned ; so that if they had not brought them , they might , for ought they knew , have been excommunicate both out of church and markets , for so far the excommunications , after aggravations , were extended ; and how then shall we know their desires to have them baptized now are so much as cordial , much less can it be known that they are so much as meer historical believers , that continue so obstinately prophane after so much preaching , which they have long heard , and the gospel read , which all that were ordined to eternal life , believed at the first preaching of it in the primitive times , and how then shall we so much as think that they believe the scripture , or any such thing , as salvation in christ , either temporal or eternal ? ans . i answer , what know we but their children are elected , and are of those to which god will shew mercy : what know we , but some of their predecessors were such as loved god , and kept his commandments , and therefore the promise of shewing mercy unto thousands in them that so do is ground of hopes unto them , exod. 20. and besides , the promise runs but to the children of believers , that are of faith , for those only are the children of abraham ; and then it will necessarily follow , that so many of those children of believers that prove not believers , but prophane , must not have their children baptized , no more then the other , till they come to years , and do desire it themselves being believers also , which will condemn some independents practise , and enforce them to yield , either to the one or the other ; or at least wise , that if such as bring their children to be baptized , can but prove that any of their predecessors , even to a thousand generations , have loved god , and kept his commandments , they must bantize them , as well as such children of prophane parents , that were both born , and educated under faithful parents : for their profanness is so much the more gross , and obstinate , and incorrigible , by how much better means , and cause they have had of amendment of life ; and therefore grant the one , and you lose the other . object . but it will be objected , that all that were baptized in the primitive times , as act. 2. 41. were admitted likewise unto all ordinances , if at years of discretion , as act. 2. 41 , 42. it is said , that they that were baptized , as vers . 41. continued stedfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship ; and in breaking of bread , and in prayers , as vers . 42 , &c. conseq . now then it will necessarily follow , that none were admitted unto baptisme but that were likewise admittable unto all ordinances , if at years of discretion , and therefore none ought now to have their children baptized , but that are admitted one or both parents to the sacament of the supper . considering both ordinances are alike sacred , as appeares from these primitive examples . ans . i answer , true ; and so we ought to account them , in respect of administring them to any at years of discretion . and as for the childen of such ; if you grant the one , the other is confessed . but the difference still doth hold , as before , whether men should be admitted , and their children likewise , upon profession of faith meerly historical , or upon the holding forth of justifying faith , as visible beleever concerning which , i am of opinion as is before shewed , but desire that both parties , might in this respect , without offence , or hart-burnings each unto others , walk in love , and by the rule of charity , without judging or censuring each other , as every man thinketh , and is fully perswaded in his own heart , as before god , and not as following men though never so eminent in other respects ; for they are not infallible . and this is certain , that we read not in scripture , of any at all , that desired baptisme that were put put back ; and it is not safe to act on principles , that are not grounded there ; but on the other part , all that gladly received the word , without any more trial , even three thousand souls were added to the church in one day , act. 41. they had no time for any great trial of so many . but the the arguments being so strong on both sides , especially concerning baptisme , so that many godly and grave divines , and holy men , are fully perswaded in their very souls and consciences , that they ought to doe the quite contrary one to the other in this respect . it therefore followes , that neither of them ought to compel each other to their own principles nor ways herein , neither ought the magistate to authorize the one against the other , but leave them both at liberty in these respects , to be stricter or remisser , as they think they ought ; seeing a full , and clear , and satisfactory result , cannot easily be produced from sacred scripture , to which all must necessarily assent unto . for to impel unto either , by civil power , were manifest tyranny over the very consciences of the one , or the other ; and therefore ought not to be done ; but as they tender the wrath and displeasure of god , and will expect his judgement who having begun , will also make an end , deut. 32. 41 , to 44. & 1 sam. 3. 12 , 13 , 14 , & ps . 2. if such be of the seed of the jews ( spiritual jews i mean ) see ester 6. 13. for he is not a jew that is one outward , as rom. 2. 28 , 29. i have more particulars to propose betwixt them , tending to unity , concerning other points wherein they are at variance , which i could not conveniently include in one volumne ; as the case stands with me at this time : but i purpose ( god willing ) with all possible speed , to put them forth ; proposing them as ( in my apprehension ) an infallible result from sacred scriptures , clearly deduced ; by unanswerable arguments . 1. what kind of civil government was commended to the jews , by the lord himself , as the best form , or way of government for them to establish in their common-wealth , of all other , who were his peculiarly beloved people above all the nations under heaven . 2. how far forth the magistrate ought to compel by force and power , to the keeping of the law ; to wit , the moral law of god. and how far forth it is not lawful to use any force in that respect . 3. what is the best rule to observe , and use , and the most proper and warrantable , to assure an honourable , and liberal maintenance to all godly and faithful ministers of the gospel of christ . finis . a reply to mr. rutherfurd, or a defence of the answer to reverend mr. herles booke against the independency of churches. vvherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by mr. samuel rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the church of scotland, in his boke entituled the due right of presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / by richard macher [sic] teacher to the church at dorchester in new england. 1646. mather, richard, 1596-1669. 1647 approx. 445 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 67 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a88948 wing m1275 thomason e386_9 estc r201478 99861982 99861982 114129 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a88948) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 114129) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 61:e386[9]) a reply to mr. rutherfurd, or a defence of the answer to reverend mr. herles booke against the independency of churches. vvherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by mr. samuel rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the church of scotland, in his boke entituled the due right of presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / by richard macher [sic] teacher to the church at dorchester in new england. 1646. mather, richard, 1596-1669. [12], 80, 71-109 [i.e. 119], [1] p. printed for j. rothwell, and h. allen at the sun and fountaine in pauls church-yard, and the crown in popes-head alley, london : 1647. text is continuous despite pagination. annotation on thomason copy: "may 8th". "macher" is altered in ms. to "mather" on t.p. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng rutherford, samuel, 1600?-1661. -due right of presbyteries -early works to 1800. herle, charles, 1598-1659 -early works to 1800. church of scotland -government -early works to 1800. independant churches -england -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. presbyterianism -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. 2007-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-03 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-07 john latta sampled and proofread 2008-07 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a reply to mr. rutherfurd , or , a defence of the answer to reverend mr. herles booke against the independency of churches . vvherein such objections and answers , as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by mr. samuel rutherfurd , a godly and learned brother of the church of scotland , in his booke entituled the due right of presbyters , are examined and removed , and the answer justified and cleared . by richard ma●her teacher to the church at dorchester in new england . 1646. london , printed for j. rothwell , and h. allen at the sun and fountaine in pauls church-yard , and the crown in popes-head alley , 1647 , the authors preface to the reader . christian reader , having published some yeares agoe , a small treatise , in way of a brotherly answer to reverend master herle ; i now present unto thy view a defence thereof against such objections and answers as have been returned to sundry passages therein , by reverend and learned master rutherfurd . in which undertaking it hath been farre from my intention to increase or uphold the differences that have appeared of late yeares in england amongst the servants of the lord , about matters of church government . for i had much rather bring prayers and teares for the quenching of such fires , then fewell or oyle for the increasing thereof : neither shall the same i hope , be any thing at all increased by what here i present now thy view . at the least this i may say , that i intended no such thing but the contrary , even the promoting of truth and peace , if it were the will of god so to blesse my desires and endeavors . true it is , i have taken the liberty to consider and try some things delivered by that reverend brother whom here i have to doe withall , but this i trust cannot be justly offensive , in as much as the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets , 1 cor. 14. 32. and the doctrine of the apostle himselfe was examined by those noble bereans , whom the holy ghost commendeth for searching the scriptures daily , whether those things were so act. 17. 11. it is also true which our reverend brother saith in his epistle to the reader , before his peaceable plea , that there is great cause of sorrow that all the lords people should not minde one thing , and sing one song , and joyne in one against the children of babel . neverthelesse , this may be some comfort against this sorrow , that by the providence of the lord this diversity of opinions and disputes , if it be christianly carried as it may , may occasion and produce in the issue the further clearing up of truth . for as our author well observeth , from the collision of opinions resulteth truth : and disputes as stricken flints cast fire for light . due right of presbyt . epistle to the reader . the desire and hope whereof , together with the advice of such brethren as i consulted withall , was that which chiefely prevailed with me for the publishing of this reply , wherein the reader will finde sundry scriptures and questions controverted in these times , discussed and considered so farre as the nature of a reply or defence did lead thereto ; and i hope some or other through gods blessing may receive some profit thereby . and if the humble christian who desires to know , and love and practise the truth , shall receive any benefit or help for attaining these ends by meanes of this labour of mine , it is that which i intended and aimed at , and for which i desire that god alone may have the praise and glory . if any shall still remaine otherwise minded ; yet in due time i hope god shall reveale even this unto them . in the meane time , diversity of apprehensions in these points ought not to bred any alienation of affection amongst those that are otherwise orthodoxe , and sincere . it were a thousand pitties , if it should . for my part , i cannot but approve what this reverend brother sometime professeth , that he doth both love and dispute , contradict and reverence at once : peaceable plea : epist . yea , he counts himselfe a debtor for love , charity , honour and all due respect in christ jesus , and a seat and lodging in his heart and highest esteeme to all those that be godly , lovers of the truth , and sufferers for the truth against prelacy , though possibly they like not well of presbyteriall government : ibid. in answer whereto ( for i would be loth that such love should be lost upon us , without due returne of the like ) i would for my part professe the like deare and due respect to all those that are qualifyed as here he doth describe ( of which sort i know there are many ) though possibly they may like better of the way that is called presbyteriall , then of the congregationall . for those that give apparent testimonies that they are the lord's , and so that they must live together in heavens , i know not why they should not love one another on earth , what ever differences of apprehensions may for the present be found amongst them in some things . as for bitternesse of spirit and tartnesse of contests , i never thought that to be gods way of promoting truth amongst brethren , and therefore i have endevoured in this discourse to avoid the same . for i beleeve there is more hope of doing good by solidity of argument with a spirit of meeknesse and love , then by sharp and tart language , the fruit of bitternesse of spirit , wherein for the most part right of reason is wanting , the passions being there most vehement and stirring , where the intellectuals are most ●eeble and weake . now if any aske why this defence hath been so long deferred , it being now two yeares and more since master rutherfurd his due right of presbyt . came forth , such may be pleased to consider that new england being as 't is counted 3000 miles distant from old ; therefore many books may be extant in england a long time afore we that are so remote can so much as heare any sound thereof : and those few that come to our knowledge , are commonly extant in england a matter of a yeares space afore , and sometimes longer . in which respect many things may be spoken and printed against us , whereto it cannot be expected that we should returne any speedy answer . and though it be now twelve moneths agoe or more since master rutherfurd his due right of presbyt . came to my hands , yet at that time my few spare houres from my constant and ordinary employments were wholly taken up otherwise , so that i could not attend this businesse any sooner : which i desire may be accepted as a just apologie for the late coming forth of this reply ; which as it may seeme late , so it is more large then in some respect i could have desired , by reason that i doe usually transcribe those words of master rutherfurd , whereto i d●e apply my answer ; which course i confesse i did not unwillingly ( in some respects ) chuse , partly to save the reader a labour of turning to the place in master rutherfurd which i am speaking too ; which else he must have done , or have taken things upon my report upon trust ; and partly that my candid and faire dealing with the author , whom i have to doe withall might the better appeare . for when a mans words are not kept , but forsaken , and others substituted in their place , his minde and meaning may soone be mistaken , and represented amisse unto the reader . which is a practise that i have often seene , but never approved ; and therefore i have not used it . for i would be loth to wrong any man ; specially a man of such worth as i take master rutherfurd to be , by imputing to him what he doth not teach nor deliver : and for this cause it is that i have usually transcribed and expressed his owne words ; and by this meanes my booke is growne to the greater bulk . one thing more i would advertise the reader of , and then i shall quickly have done : the figures from 185 and so forward , noting the number of the pages in master rutherfurd his treatise , are set downe twice therein , once in their proper place , and againe after the page 484. wherefore if any of these pages be quoted in this reply , as some of them are , if the thing that is alleaged be not found in the page that is named , looke for it in the other place of the booke where are the same figures , and there you may finde it . courteous reader , study the truth in a way of piety and peace : be zealous for it , but lose not love to the saints : beware , when the world is filled with disputes about discipline , that thou be not drawne onely to erroneous opinions in maine matters of doctrine . be sure to practise and expresse the power of godlinesse in humility of minde , mortification of thy own corruption , faith in the lord jesus , and love to all his redeemed ; and be not by any meanes drawne away from these things , which doe so mainly conduce to thy salvation . finally as the holy ghost saith , phil. 4. 8 , 9. whatsoever things are true , whatsoever things are honest , whatsoever things are just , whatsoever things are lovely , pure , and of good report , if there be any vertue , if there be any praise , thinke on these things , and doe them ; and the god of peace shall be with thee . improve i pray such interest as thou hast in god through the mediator , by affording the help of thy prayers for me , who am truly desirous of thy salvation , r. m. decemb. 10. 1646. a table of the contents of the ensuing treatise . chap. 1. of appeales from particular congregations , and the true cause of appeales , and whether by mr rutherford his doctrine in this point there must not be appeales to generall counsells , whose power of iurisdiction he doth not yet deny . page . 2. chap. 2. of the power of synods to give advite and counsell , and whether from thence it doth follow that they have no power to command . page . 11. chap. 3. of the assembly , acts. 15. whether they did exercise any power of iurisdiction , against the obtruders of circumcision , and whether their rebuking of them does argue the affirmative . page . 15. chap. 4. of the dogmaticall power of synods : and of the power of congregations to determine matters amongst themselves , if ability serve thereto . page . 21. chap. 5. againe of that assembly acts. 15. whether their rebuking the false teachers do prove a power of iurisdiction and excommunication in synods : and whether preaching do prove the assembly where it is , to be a church . page . 24. chap. 6. whether the power of synods be a power of iurisdiction ; and of the dependance of the synagogues upon the synedrion at ierusalem . page . 30. chap. 7. whether the lawfulnesse or necessity of appeales doe prove a superiority of iurisdiction in synods over congregations , and of sundry sayings of our author which seeme to interfere . page . 39. chap. 8. whether antioch acts. 15. had right to have ended the controversie amongst themselves , if they had bin able , and whether their sending to jerusalem for helpe , or their knowledge that other churches were troubled with the like evill , or the party among themselves who were against the truth , do prove the contrary . and of supremacy of power in congregations . page . 49. chap. 9. whether the congregationall way or the presbyteriall do make the gospel more defective , then the law of excommunication by a church that hath onely three elders , and of doing things suddenly . page . 66. chap. 10. whether the necessity of discipline be greater then of sacraments : and whether a congregation that hath neighbours may not exercise entirenesse of iurisdiction , as well as one that hath none ; and whether a man may take on him the whole minestry , having no outward calling thereto ; and may not as well take on him one act of baptising or ministring the lords supper . page . 75. chap. 11. whether the power of iurisdiction flowing immediately from the essence of a church , doe not agree to a church that hath neighbours , as well as to a church that hath none ; and whether otherwise neighbouring churches be not a losse . and whether pretence of male-administration be a sufficient reason for neighbouring churches to deprive a congregation of its power . page . 93 chap. 12. whether it be against the light of nature that the adverse party be iudge , and whether mr rutherford can safely say that none of them do so teach ; and whether this saying , that parties may not be iudges , do make against entirenesse of power in a congregation , any more then in a generall or nationall councell . page . 104. chap. 13. whether the churches at thessalonica and jerusalem , were each of them more then one congregation , and of mr. baynes his judgement therein . of the assembly mentioned luke . 12. and whether our saviour did there speake to his disciples onely , or to all the people also . page . 112. chap. 14. whether the church at corinth was one church meeting distributively in sundry congregations , or whether it was onely one congregation . and whether 1 cor. 14. 23. if the whole church come together in some place , &c. doe make for sundry congregations or for one onely . page . 123. chap. 15. whether the church at ephesus were more in number then corinth and jerusalem ; and the judgement of mr baynes whether that church was many congregations or one onely . page . 137. chap. 16. whether the church at antioch was onely one congregation : and whether acts. 14. 27. and 15. 30. doe not prove the affirmative . page . 140. chap. 17. whether or no liberties are given by christ to the people , but women must exercise the same as well as men . and of the peoples liberty about ordination , or the calling of ministers . page . 146. chap. 18. of mr rutherfords report of synodicall propositions in new-england . page . 151. chap. 19. of the appeales of luther and cranmer , and of the power of iurisdiction in generall councels denied by mr. rutherford ; whether therein be doe not contradict himselfe , and also overthrow the iurisdiction of classicall , provinciall , and nationall assemblies . page . 153. chap. 20. if it were granted that the light of nature teacheth all societies to end in monarchies , whether would it not follow that the government of churches must so end , as well as that congregations must depend on the government of synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion in government to other societies . and whether the multitude of grecians and hebrewes , who ch●se the seven deacons acts. 6. were two congregations , or one onely . page . 159. chap. 21. whether congregations may be excommunicated by classes and synods , by vertue of those words ▪ mat. 18. tell the church , as containing a rule and remedy for all offences , or at the least a church remedy for the offences of churches and church members . and if yea , whether it would not thereupon follow , that a nationall church must have the benefit of this remedy as well as others ; and so have no independency of iurisdiction within it selfe , but be subject to the jurisdiction of generall counsels , which yet mr. rutherford doth deny . page . 164. chap. 22. when the supreame magistrate is a professed enemy to religion , whether then it be likely and usuall , that the greater part of the people are sincerely religious , and whether when the greater part are enemies with their magistrates , it be then the duty of a few that are sincere , to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enter into a nationall covenant , and also to injoyne the same unto that greater part . page . 170. chap. 23. whether the word church be not given to a single congregation : and whether a congregation be a company or church-meeting onely for word and sacraments , and not for any other spirituall duties : and whether the divers duties , 1. of word and sacraments , 2. of discipline , &c. must needs argue divers churches . page . 175. chap. 24 whether those children of israell numb . 8. 10. who laid hands on the levites were elders by office , and as so considered did lay on their hands . and whether this scripture do not prove , that where there are no elders to be had , there some principall members though no elders by office , may impose hands on church-officers . page . 180 chap. 25. whether a ministers calling consist in election or imposition of hands , and whether of these is greater , and whether is prior or posterior . whether 1 tim. 4. 14. acts. 6 2 , 3 , 4. acts. 13. 1 , 2 , 3. doe prove that the ministers calling consists in imposition of hands by the presbeterie , and that such imposition of hands is not a consummatory rite or benedictory signe . also whether rom. 10. 15. do prove that a man cannot be a minister , except some presbyterie ordaine him before the people choose him , and whether otherwise the people doe send a minister to themselves . and whether the people of god may not as well discerne a mans fitnesse to be ordained , as his fitnesse to be elected . page . 196. chap. 26. whether the epistles to timothy and titus wherein there are contained rules of direction in laying on of hands , do prove that this action may not in any case be performed by non-officers , but must be performed onely by presbyteries ; and whether the argument do not make as strongly for the appropriating of laying on of hands to the prelates , as to the presbyteries , and do not as well exclude the presbyteries from medling therein , as exclude the people . page . 206. to the christian reader . in the yeare 1643. there came forth a treatise against independency , under the name of my reverend and learned brother mr. charles herle , the pastor of winwick in lancashire . this treatise , because it seemed to bee written with such a candid and peaceable spirit as might witnesse for its author that the thing he aymed at therein was meerly the disquisition of the truth ; and because the author thereof was many yeares agoe of my reverend brother mr. tompsons acquaintance and mine ; therefore we thought it might not be in vaine if we should lovingly communicate to the learned author such apprehensions of ours , whereby wee were detained from concurring with his judgement in the principall question disputed in the said treatise . and therefore in the latter end of the same yeare , there came forth a small script under our name in way of a brotherly answer to that his loving and learned treatise . against this answer mr. samuell rutherford a learned writer of the church of scotland , hath alledged and published many objections . exceptions , and answers , in his booke entituled the due right of presbyteries : i may call them many , because in that treatise of his there are no lesse then 24 or 25 severall places , wherein he bring up by name the said answer , disputing against sundry passages therein as if they were not sound ; which passages if they be indeed erronious and unsound , are a great many to bee contained and found in so small a work the whole booke as it is now printed containing in it 30. leaves : so that the leaves in the booke are not much more then the places therein which this learned writer doth object against ; which being considered , i thought it therefore needfull to peruse and weigh as the lord should helpe , the severall places of his fore-mentioned treatise , wherein he deales against the said answer : and having so done , i here present my apprehentions to publike view , leaving the prudent and judicious reader to consider and judge ; whether this reverend and learned brother have sufficiently overthrowne or weak'ned the said answer , or whether the same doe not still remaine agreable to the rule of truth , notwithstanding his objections against the same , or such answers as he doth returne to severall passages therein . chap. i. of appeales from particular congregations and the true cause of appeales ; and whether by mr. rutherford his doctrine in this point there may not be appeales to generall councils , whose power of iu●isdiction he doth yet deny . first of all in his page 315. ( for that is the first place wherein i find him medling with the answer ) speaking of doubts concerning math. 18. 17. tell the church ; in a 9 . th objection about that scripture , besides other particulers hee hath these words , viz. there is no reason to appeale to a higher iudicature because the inferiour may erre , because all above a congregation are courts which may erre ; presbyteries provinciall , nationall , the universall councill of the catholicke church may erre : and then for author of this part of the objection hee subjoyneth my name , and answer to mr. herle , cap. 2. pag. 13 , 14. answ . when hee is discoursing of doubts concerning that scripture , math 18. tell the church , i know no reason why hee should bring those words of mine at such a time or for such a purpose . for though i doe acknowledge that i wrote the words which hee hath set downe or such like , in the place by him alledged ; yet that they were brought by me for such purpose as hee doth report ( viz. for the cleering of doubts concerning the meaning of math. 18 17. ) that i doe utterly deny . he that shall looke upon the chapter and pages alledged , will find that i doe not there meddle at all with that scripture , either for one purpose or another ; and therefore cannot be truly said to have used the words alledged , in way of cleering doubts concerning the same . and albeit in another place , ( cap. 3. pag. 22. et sequ . ) i doe purposely speake to that scripture ; yet in that place there is no mention at all of the words by him alledged nor of any such like , and where such words are to be found , there that scripture is not mentioned at all . now who knoweth not that a man may be much wronged , when the words which hee hath spoken are taken and applyed to such a purpose , for which he did never bring them nor intend them . but to let this passe , let us heare what our reverend author saith against the words alledged , in his answer . the cause of appeales , saith he , is not because inferiour iudicatures may erre , for so wee might appeale from all iudicatures , even from a generall councill , for it may erre , pag. 315. lin . ult . answ . is not this the very same that was said in the answer , pag. 13 , 14. the pages which hee here undertakes to answer , is it not there said ; as for classicaticall provinciall , and nationall synods , there is none of these but those cases of deficiency and possibility of partiality may befall the best of them ; and therefore if for these causes the single congregations may not be indep●ndant , but there may be appeales from them , the synods being subject to the like , there may bee liberty of appeales from them also — . for as the congregations may be partiall and erre , so we suppose it will not be denyed but the classis may erre , the provinciall synod may erre , the nationall may erre , yea generall councils may erre ; and so by this reason not synods nor generall councils may have entirenesse of jurisdiction , but there may be liberty of appeales from them also . these are our words in those very pages which here mr. rutherford pretends to answer and disprove or confute . but in stead of a confutation we see we have nothing but a plaine confession or affirmation of his owne , that the thing is even so as was affirmed by us before . now why hee should make a show of taking away or weak'ning that which we had said , and then in stead of accomplishing what he undertakes , to doe no more but onely to say the same thing againe which wee had said before , what reason i say he had for this i know not ; but plaine it is that for the particular in hand , the answer which he pretends to weaken , is not yet weakned at all , but rather strengthned and confirmed by his apparent yeelding the cause , and affirming the same that was before affirmed by us . but saith hee pag. 316. the true cause ( viz. of appealing to higher courts ) is , 1. because they doe not so frequently erre . 2. they are not so inclined and disposed to erre ; for many eyes see more then one , and doe more seldome miscarry in taking up the right object : 3. because wee conceive more equality and lesse partiality in higher courts . answ . these three reasons seeme much what the same , or to hang one upon another ; for therefore they doe more seldome erre because they are not so disposed and inclined to erre , and they are not so inclined because they are more in number , and because there is in them more equality and lesse partiality : so that upon the matter it is but one reason , viz. because though they may erre , yet not so frequently and likely as the congregation . yet ( be they three reasons , or be they but one ) let us consider what force there is in this sa●ing to take away entirenesse of iurisdiction from a congregation , and to establish the necessity of appealing from the same unto a synod , for this is the thing that should be cleared . first of all it may be a question , whether synods doe more seldome erre then the presbyteries of congregations : and the reason of the doubt is ; because the promise of the presence of ch●●st is not made meerly to multitude or greatnesse of number ; but if they bee but two or three gathered together in his name , his promise is that hee will be present in the midst of them , math. 18. 20. now the promise of his presence being to so small a number gathered together in his name , why may not a congregation and its presbyterie being so gathered , though they be a lesser number then synods and councels ; yet bee partakers of the benefit of this promise , for the preserving of them from error , as well as those greater assemblies ? 〈…〉 not but in multitude of counsellers there is safety : nor doe i doubt but synods and council● gathered together in the name of christ , may expect the per●●●●ance of this promise of our saviours presence : but the thing i doubt of is this , whether a congregationall church of saints , furnished with an able and ●aithfull presbyterie ( for of such onely doe i speake ) may not by vertue of this promise bee as frequently preserved fro● error as those greater assemblies of synods and councils , posito that the synods and counci●ls did as frequently come together as the congregation doth : for otherwise i grant , the synods meeting more seldome may erre more seldome : but let the comparison be equall in respect of the time of assembling and comming together , and then i doubt whether synods 〈◊〉 preserved from error any oftener then the fore-mentioned lesser assemblies . it is well knowne what n●zianzen said of synods or councils in his time , viz. that hee had never seene good and happie end of any of them , and that evils were not so much redressed as increased thereby . epist . ad procop●um , quae est numere 42. referr . whitak de concill . q. 1. cap. 3. true it is , nazianzen lived as dr. whi●●● observeth , pessimis & turbulentissimia ecclesiae temporibus , in very corrupt and troublesome titues , when by reason that valens the emperour was averse from the truth , h●retickes much prevailed and corruptions greatly increased ; and this might make the good man something more to dislike all councils then there was cause . neverthelesse his words doe apparently witnesse , that in his time synods and councils did not seldome erre but very often ; so that hee for his part had never seene good that had come by any of them . then which saying i suppose one would not speake more hardly of a particular congregation and its presbyterie ; and therefore by this testimony of his my doubt is increased ; whether the matter be in 〈…〉 mr. rutherford doth say , viz. that synods and councils doe rariùs erra●● , more seldome erre then such a particular congregation as here i am speaking of . but suppose it were so as hee doth affirme ( and i will not deny it , onely as i said i doubt of it ) yet i doe not see what great matter hee can gaine thereby for the furthering of his purpose , that there must be liberty of appeales from particular congregations unto classes and synods , as unto higher courts . for if this be the reason 〈◊〉 such appeales , because such assemblies doe more seldome erre , because many eyes doe see more , and doe more seldome miscary in taking up the right object ; then it will follow that the greatest assemblies , in as much as they have the most eyes , doe of all others most seldome erre , and so to them there must bee the most appeales . for the learned author well knowes , à quatenùs ad omni● valet consequentia . and so by this meanes the true cause and reason of appeales lying ( according to mr. rutherford his apprehension ) in the rarenesse and seldomnesse of erring in such assemblies to whom appeales are made , and the cause of this seldomnesse of erring lying in the multitude and great number of eyes in such assemblies , it must needs thereupon follow , that vniversall or generall councils as having in them the most eyes , are the assemblies that doe most seldome erre , and so un●o them there must be most appeales . which if it be gran●ed , the classicall , 〈◊〉 , and nationall synods , are all by this meanes deprived and stri●t of 〈◊〉 of ●●●●diction as well as the particular congregations , the synods by 〈◊〉 to generall councils , as to those that doe ra●iùs c●rare , aswell as the 〈…〉 appeales unto the synods : and so thera must be no entirenesse of 〈…〉 onely in the generall councils , but from all other synods there must 〈◊〉 liberty of appeales , aswell as from the congregation . this consequence for ought i see doth unavoidably follow upon that which mr. rutherford lay undowne as the cause of appealing from a particular congregation : and so ou● brethren by this meanes have spun a fine thred , drawing forth a conclusion which is every what as prejudiciall to their owne cause as to ours . if any aske why may not this consequence be owned ? why may wee not say , there must bee liberty of appeales from all synods and presbyteries , except onely the generall councill ? the answer is , th●t wee may not so say ; because then causes would be too long depending a●ore they could come to issue , yea perhaps would never come to issue as long as this world shall endure : for by this rule they may by appeales upon appeales be protracted untill they be brought to a generall councill to be determined there . now as there hath not beene any such councill for many ages by-past , so it is very uncertaine when there will be one assembled , whether ever or never whilst this world stands . but wee thinke christ jesus hath provided better for his church then so , and hath not appointed such a necessitie of appeales upon appeales , but that causes may bee determined afore any generall councill can be assembled . besides , if such assemblies might be frequently attained , yet it is not yet cleered , that when they are assembled they have any power of iurisdiction at all ; but onely a doctrinall power to cleare up the rule , the power of iurisdiction remaining in some other assembly . sure it is , mr. rutherford thus teacheth expresly , for his words are these ; verily i professe i cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandals can be in a generall councill ; there may bee some meerly doctrinall power if such a councill could be had , and that is all . due right , &c. pag. 482. and in the end of the same page and beginning of the next , speaking of those words , math. 18. tell the church , hee saith thus ; because ordinary communion faileth when you goe higher then a nationall church , and christ's way supposeth an ordinary communion — ; therefore i deny that this remedy is needfull in any church above a nationall church . by which sayings it appeareth , that he counts christs remedy to censure scandals not needfull in a generall councill , yea and hee seriously professeth , that hee cannot see that such a councill if it could bee had , hath any power of iurisdiction at all to censure scandals . which being so , it must needs follow , that scandals must be censured , and causes ended somewhere else , afore they can come 〈◊〉 such end to a generall councill . and if this bee so , then how can that stand which here hee affirmeth , that the true cause of appealing to synods in this ; because they doe rariùs errare , more seldome erre , then the particuler congregation , and having many eyes doe more seldome miscarry in taking up the right object : for this cause is most properly appliable to the generall councill , unto whom notwithstanding hee denies any power of iurisdiction to censure scandals ; and if they h●ve no such power , there can bee no appeales to them for such purpose and end . and how these things can stand toget●er , that the true cause of appeales to such or such assemlies doth he in this , that they doe more seldome erre as having many eyes , and yet that to generall councils there should be no appeales at all , as having no power of iurisdiction , though of all others this cause be most properly ●ound in them , i for my part doe confesse i doe not understand . if any shall say , that as mr. ruthe●ford doth make that which i have mentioned the true cause of appeales , so hee doth also hold a power of iurisdiction even in generall councils ; and shall therefore doubt whether i doe truly report him 〈◊〉 touch the contrary , i would wish no more favour of such a one but to peruse the places which i have here above alledged , and then i hope hee will ●nd the words to bee no otherwise , but as i have set them downe . i know indeed there are some places in him which doe looke another way ; as that where hee saith , it is by accident and not through want of inuat● and intrinsecall power , that the court of a catholick councill can not in an ordinary and constant way exercise that power which now we are speaking of due right , page 308. and a little after hee saith , he seeth nothing to prove that a generall councill hath not power to excommunicate a nationall church . yea and further , that if there were a generall councill at this d●y , they might lawfully in a iuridicall way ( so are his words ) doe that to the faction of romish pretended catholicks ; which hee saith , is excommunication in the essence and substance of th● act. and in the page next ensuing he saith , this of our saviour , tell the church , is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to a catholick councill . these places i confesse doe seeme to me not very well to agree with the either afore alledged : for in the one he plainly affirmes , there is in generall councils power of iurisdiction to censure scanda●s , and in the other hee doth as plainly deny the same . but it is the former places and not these latter which i doe stand upon ; in which former as i conceive him to hold the truth , so for ought i see , that which hee saith in this place wee have in hand about the true cause of appealing from congregations to synods is much infirmed thereby . for how can that be taken to be the true cause of appeales , which is most properly found in such assemblies ( i me●ne in generall councils ) unto whom as having no power of iurisdiction , there must be no ap●eales at all ? to conclude this chapter : when wee doe enquire about power of appealing , and unto what courts appeales must be brought , our way is not to seeke for such ●ourts as cannot erre , for such wee shall never find ; nor for such as we thinke will more seldome erre , as mr. rutherford would have it ; for that rule is also subject to much uncertainty and exception , as hath beene already declared . but the best way is to enquire where the lord jesvs hath placed the power of the last and finall censuring and determining of causes , and when that is found therewith to rest contented . and as for synods and councils , it is neither their not erring , nor their seldome erring that can bee a suffi●ient argument to place the power of iurisdiction in them ; unlesse the lord iesus had so appointed and ordained , which yet doth not appeare . and so much for this first place , wherein our brother deales against the answer . chap. ii. of the power of synods to give advice and counsell , and whether from thence it doth follow , that they have no power to command . the next place wherein i find this learned author dealing with the answer , is in his page 381. where having in the close of a 4 . th objection in the prece●ent page brought in these words , viz. a synod in dogmaticall power ariseth no higher then this ( viz. a man , or a single congregation ) as that a divine institution doth fall upon it . amongst other things in his answer to the objection hee saith thus , viz. i would know if a synods dogmaticall power be above the power of single congregations ; i think saith he , it is not by our brethrens tenents ; for they say expressely that every particular church hath right , jus , to decide dogmaticall points : this right the church of antioch had ( act. 15 ) an● laboured to end that controversie within her selfe , which sheweth that they had right an● power : but they had not ability ; and therefore in that case they seeke for counsell , light , and advise from other churches — . and then amongst other places for proofe that this is our tenent , hee alledgeth in his margent my name and mr. tompson● in the answer to mr. herle , chap. 2. and after the words above rehearsed and some others to the like purpose , hee inferreth thus : hence saith hee , the power of synods is onely by way of counsell and advise . answ . to omit ( at least for this time ) the other places alledged in his margent , and not to examine how farre his answer reacheth to satisfie the objection , as himselfe hath propounded it ; i will onely consider of such things as doe directly concerne the answer , for that is the scope ●ayme at , and i endeavour to keepe close thereto . first therefore i have this to say , that for the dogmaticall power of synods above congregations , for the right and power of the church of antioch in particular , and for the power of synods to bee onely by way of counsell and advise , there is not in the chapter alledged so much as one word about any one of those 〈◊〉 either one way or another ; so that i cannot but marvell why this reverend brother should alledge that chapter for such a purpose . 2. although in another place of the answer , viz. page 4● . there be words to the like purpose with those which our author here sets downe concerning antioch , yet for the conclusion and consequence which hee would thence inferre , viz. that the power of synods is onely by way of counsell and advice , as there is nothing said ● the chapter by him alledged that lookes that way , so there is nothing in the page or chapter where a●tioch is spoken of , nor any where else in all th● booke 〈◊〉 as i doe remember , that can any way serve for the proving of such a conclusion and tenent to bee ours . the author alledgeth no place that hath such a conclusion in it , either in direct words or by just consequence : and i professe that for my part i doe not know of any such . 3. but this i doe know that the direct contrary to what here is expressed is plainly to be found in another place of the said answer , viz. pag. 7. where there are these words , viz. if a synod may b● called a church , and if power by disputation and disquisition to cleare up the rule , and then to command obedience thereto , may be called government , then they ( viz. the independants as they are called ) doe admit a synod to bee a governing church , for the power here m●ntioned they doe allow unto synods . now the power here mentioned being , as we see , not onely a power by disputation to cleare up the rule , but also a power to command obedience thereto , they allowing this power unto synods as they doe exprestly say that they doe ; i know not why our brother should say , that they allow unto synods onely a power of counsell and advice . for power to command obedience , and power onely by way of counsell and advice , i suppose are not the same ; and if they be not , i know not how this report in this particuler can bee made good . to me it seemes apparent and undenyable , that they who have power to command obedience , have more then only a power to counsell and advise ; and they who have onely this latter have no power of the ●orme● at all . even interiours , as naamans servants , 2 king. 5. have power to counsell and advise their master , and yet i hope they had no power to command their master to yeeld obedience . 4 suppose it bee true ( which i deny not ) that the answer in another place , ( ●hough not in the place by him alledged ) doth say , that a●tioch had right to have ended the matter amongst themselves , if ability had served thereto , and that by reason of distention and through want of light they were forced to send out to ●●rusalem for helpe , must it needs follow thereupon that his assembly at ierusalem had no more power but onely by way of counsell and advise ? ( which is the conclusion which hee endeavours to draw ●●om that which is said concerning antioch ) i ●●●ceive there is no necessity at all of such a consequence . for whence must the same 〈◊〉 i suppose from one of these two , either from this , that antioch is supposed and said to have had right within her selfe , or else from this that jerusalem gives counsell and advise . any other colour for concluding such a conseptionce as is in question , the answer affords none that i know of . 〈◊〉 for these two particulers here mentioned , they are both insufficient for such 〈◊〉 purpose . for what should hinder but there bee more power in the synod of ●erusalem towards them of antioch then only by way of counsell and advise , even power to command them to do what is their duty , though antioch have right to end the matter themselves , if ability serves thereto ? doth right in one person or assembly to end their ma●●ers if they be able , extempt them from being under the command of others ? hoshoulders have right to governe and order their families , if so be that they be able : doth it follow therefore that superiors in church or civill state have no power to command housholders to do their duty herein , but only to give counsell and advise ? or if housholdere have such right , doth it follow that therefore they are under no command , in church and common-wealth ? i suppose it will not follow at all . or shall we say , that classes and provinciall synods have no right to end their own matters within themselves , if a nationall synod have power to command them ? or if they have such right , shall we therefore say they are not under the command of the nationall synod , and that the nationall synod hath no power over them but only by way of counsell and advise ? wee suppose master rutherford will not say so : and yet he might as well say it , as say as hee he doth , that because antioch hath right to ●nd her own matter if they be able , therefore a synod hath no power but only by way of counsell and advise . and though the synod is to give counsell and advise ( which was the other ground whereon the conclusier afore mentioned seemes to be built ) yet neither will master rutherford his conclus●on , that the power of synods is only by way of counsell and advise , follow from thence at all . for who knoweth not that . counsell and advise may be administred and given by them , who have also power to command ? not every one indeed as may advise and counsell , may forth with command and enjoyne : neverthelesse , counsell and command are not so repugnant , but that they who may command , may also advise . paul had power to command and enjoyne phyl●mon to do what was convenient , and yet for loves sake would rather beseech him , philem. 8. 9. the lord iesus to doubt hath absolute authority to command , and yet we find him sometimes speaking to the sons of men by way of counsell or advise . revel . 3. ●8 . i counsell thee to buy of me gold , that thou mayest he rich , &c. shall we now inferre from hence , that the power of the lord iesus is only by way of counsell aud advise , and that his power cannot amount to the nature of a command ? i suppose we would be afraid and abhorre to deduce such a consequence . and therefore , though a synod may advise , yet their power to command ( which is more then meere counsell and aduise ) is not from thence concluded to be null . and so much for master rutherford his second place , wherein he deales against the answer . chap. iii. of the assembly , act. 15. whether they did exercise any power of iurisdiction against the obtruders of circumcision , and whether their rebuking of them do argue the affirmative . in his page 388. he laies downe this as a 2d. object . viz. that there is no censuring of persons for scandals , and that meeting , act , 15. because there is nothing there but a doctrinall declaration of the falshood of their opinion who taught the necessity of circumcision : and that all is done by way of doctrine and by power of the keyes of knowledge , not of iurisdiction , is cleere from the end of the meeting , which was verse 2 & 6. to consider of that question : consideration of questions being the end of the synod , is a thing belonging to doctrinall power meerely . and then he s●●joyneth my name , and in the margent alledgeth the answer , chap. 1. page 8. ans . whereto i first of all returne this answer . first , that the thing here in question being about the power of that meeting acts 15. there is nothing in the place alledged by master rutherford that can warrant him to frame such an objection under master tompsons name and mine , as proceeding from us : and the reason is , because that meeting acts 15 , is not mentioned at all in the place by him alledged , neither for that purpose which he sets down , nor for any other ; much losse is the objection ours in terminis . now to frame an objection , and to alledge chapter and page for proofe that the objection is ours , when as neither page nor chapter aleadged do speake any thing at all of that matter , what reason can be given for this i know not . neverthelesse , because the matter contayned in the objection doth not much differ from my apprehension and judgement , and something in the answer elsewhere may possibly intimate such a thing , though but briefly touched , i will therefore consider of what he saith for removing the objection as himselfe hath propounded the same . it is false , saith he , that there is no censuring of persons here , for — it is more then evident that the publike synodicall censure of rebuke is put upon those who held and urged the necessity of circumcision , and why not excommunication also in case of obstinacy ? for the synodicall censure of a publike synodicall rebuke is only gradually different , not specifically from excommunication , & both must proceed from ou● & the same power . so then the summe is , the synod had power of rebuking , and therefore of excommunication also . answ . the consequence is not cleere , for who knoweth not that there may be power to rebuke , where there is no power of excommunication ? is it not the expresse law of god , that every man shall plainly rebuke his neighbour and not suffer sin upon him , levit. 19. 17 ? and are not our 〈◊〉 words as plaine , if thy brother trespasle against thee rebuke him , and if he repent forgive him , luke 17. 3 ? whereby it is evident that one particular person hath power by the law of god and christ to put a rebuke upon another , if there be occasion for it . but will it follow hereupon that one particular christian hath power to excommunicate another in case of obstinacy ? i suppose master rutherford will not say so ; and yet unlesse this be said , i know not how his consequence can be made good , that if a synod may rebuke , they may excommunicate also . i know indeed he saith , the synodicall rebuke is only gradually different from excommunication , and not specifically , and that both must proceed from one and the same power . but this would require some proofe , and should not nakedly be affirmed without any proofe at all . for of it selfe it is not evident , that where ●ver there is power to rebuke , there is power of excommunication also . the contrary i suppose is evident from that which hath already been said from levit. 19. 17. and luke 17. 3. and from many other scriptures , and reasons , which shew that one man alone hath power to rebuke , who cannot for that be concluded to have any power of excommunication . i know the learned m●n is copious in proving from the words of verse 24. certaine men went from us , and have troubled you with words , subverting your soules , &c. that this assembly doth not only in a doctrinall way confute the false opinion and doctrine of these teachers of circumcision , but doth also rebuke them for another fault , to wit ; their obtruding their false way upon the soules and consciences of others , and for their wilfull and obstinate upholding that opinion and raysing a schisme in the church . but if all this were granted his purpose were not gained thereby , unlesse he would prove that which he doth but only affirme , to wit , that a synodicall rebuke is not specifically different but only gradually from excommunication , and that both must proceed from the same power , which ye● he hath not proved at all . but saith he , i argue thus : if the apostles do not only in a doctrinall way refute a false doctrine in this synod , but also in church way and by a juridicall power do rebuke and synodically charge the authors as subverters of soules , and lyers , then they doe not onely use a meere doctrinall power in this synod , but also a juridicall power : but the former is true : ergo , so is the latter . answ . with favour of so learned a man , i thinke this kind of argu●ng is but a begging of the thing in question , and a proving of idem per idem . for if the synod did not only in a doctrinall way refute a false doctrine , but also by a iuridicall power rebuke the authors of it , then it must needs be true indeed that they did not only use a doctrinall power , but also a iuridicall power ; that is , if they did so , they did so : if they did use such power , they did use it . but there still lyes the question , whether they did so or no : and whether they did use such power or not , and this kind of arguing doth not cleere it all . if we on the contrary should argue thus , if this assembly did not put forth any power of iurisdiction or discipline , but only in a doctrinall way con●ute a false doctrine and rebuke the authors of it , then they did onely put forth a doctrinall power , and not any power of iurisdiction , one of farre lesse abilities then our learned author , would soone espy the loosenesse of such reasoning : at least himselfe , we doubt not , would soone espy it , for sometimes we heare him say , friend your logick is naught , page 177. and yet ( be it spoke without offence ) the logick which himselfe doth here use is not so good , as to be altogether without fault , no not for the forme of it ; and therefore , we do not see how any thing can be concluded th●reby . but to leave this mistake , and to consider of the matter it selfe . if it were granted that this assembly doth not only in a doctrinall way consute a false doctrine , but also rebuke the authors thereof , must it needs follow that this rebuking was done in a iu●idicall way ? is there no rebuking of offenders for their faults , but only in a way of ●●●●ction and discipline ? i suppose much needs not to be said for the cleering the truth to be otherwise . for master rutherford himselfe confesses page 394. that there is great odds to do one and the same action materially , and to do the same formally : and page 393. that one apostle might himselfe alone have rebuked these obtruders of circumcision . which being so , it followeth thereupon that though this synod ( to call it so ) act. 15. had a doctrinall power , yea and a power of rebuking these false teachers ; yet the thing that he from thence would inferre , viz. their power of rebuking in a iuridicall way , and their power of excommunication , these are neither of them proved thereby . for if it should be said , that though rebuking do not alwayes imply iuridicall power , yet if it be a synod that doth rebuke , then the power here spoken of may be concluded thence to be in a synod . the answer is , that this will not helpe at all , because this is nothing but the bringing in of another efficient , viz. the synod , for effecting or acting the same effect . now master rutherford confesseth pag. 393. that he doth not fetch the specification of this rebuke and of those decrees from the efficient causes ; and gives that for his reason , which to me is unanswerable , to wit , because one apostle might himselfe alone have rebuked these obtruders of circumcision : and in the page next ensuing he confesseth also , that actions have not by good logick their totall specification from the efficient cause . which being so , then though it were granted that any synod may , and that this synod did performe this action of rebuking , yet the thing in question , to wit , that the power of a synod is a power of iurisdiction and of excommunication is not at all gained thereby . at the least wise ( to end this passage ) this i may say , that if this reverend brother will be true to his own principles , and not gainsay what himselfe hath already written , he for his part cannot conclude the synods power to excommunicate from this argument of their power to rebuke , nor yet from any other argument whatsoever : and the reason is , because he doth elsewhere confesse that synods are not to excommunicate any , and not this synod in particular to excommunicate these false teachers , but to remit the censuring of them to other churches , commanding them to doe it . his words as they are to be seene in his page 413. are these , viz. i could easily yeeld that there is no necessity of the elicit acts of many parts of government , such as excommunication , ordination , admitting of heathens , professing the faith to church-membership , in synods provincicall , nationall or oecumenicall ; but that synods in the ease of neglect of presbyterycall churches , command these particular churches whom it concerneth to doe their duty : and in this sence act. 15. is to remit the censure of excommunication to the presbytery of antioch and ierusalem , in case of the obstinacy of these obtruders of circumcision . in which words we have two things concerning excommunication ( to omit other particulars ) first , that there is no necessity that synods should excommunicate any , but only command the churches to do their duty therein . secondly , in particular concerning that synod acts 15. that they were to remit the censure of excommunication to the presbyteries of antioch and jerusalem , in case of the obstinacy of these obtruders or circumcision . which particulars being most true ( as i for my part so esteeme of them ) it followes thereupon , that what master rutherford saith in this place we have now in hand , is greatly weakned thereby . for how both these can stand together , that this synod should have power not only to rebuke , but to excommunicate these false teachers , and yet neither provinciall , nationall , nor oecumenicall synods to excommunicate any , nor this synod in particular to excommunicate these false teachers , but to remit the censure to other churches to whom it concerned , commanding them to do it , how these things i say can stand together , i for my part am not able to understand . chap. iiii. of the dogmaticall power of synods , and of the power of congregations to determine matters amongst themselves if ability serve thereto . in his page 396. alledging mr. tompsons name and mine , and chap. 1. page 9. of the answer . he saith we there teach that there is a power of cleering truth dogmatically , & that ultimately where the controversy is ended : but he saith , we will have this vltimate power not in a synod only , but also in a congregation ; and then no answereth three things which there ensue . answ . our words are these , by power of decrees we understand power to cleere up the truth dogmatically ; for the word translated decrees is dogmata in the originall , act. 16. 4. and this power we confesse is in a synod , though not all in a synod alone , but also in the presbyterie of a single congregation . now these bring our words , if therefore this reverend brother would overthrow our tenent in this particular , he should have proved that there is not any power as all in the presbytery of a single congregation to cleere up the truth dogmatically : this indeed had been directly contrary to what we teach : but this be neither proveth , nor once attempteth to prove ; and therefore our tenent herein doth yet stand good , for any thing he hath said to the contrary . and no marvell , si●h the expresse words of the text do witnesse that every bishop hath power and is boand by his office and duty , by sound doctrin● both to exhort and convince gainsayets , tit. 1. 9. and accordingly the presbitery of antioch did labour to cleere up the truth in that controversy about circumcision ; and had much disputation about it amongst themselves , afore there was any speech of sending to jerusalem for help , act. 15. 2. which sheweth that they had power or right to have cleered the matter amongst themselves , if ability had served , or else this indeavour had been sinful as being an attempting to do that whereto they had no right . so that for ought we yet soe , the power that we speake of , and which wee hold to bee in the presbytery of a congregation is there indeed by the appointment of the lord. but let us heare master rutherfords answer . first , saith he , they seeme to make this dogmaticall power a church power , and the exercise thereof formally an act of church government ; and so it must be church power and church government in the synod , as well as in the congregation . answ . whence doth it seeme that we do so make it ? are there any such words as here he sets down ? or any words equivalent thereto ? or doth the place make any mention of church-power , and church government at all ? or is there so much as one word that looketh that way ? if there be , let our brother say that we seeme to ●each as he doth report ; but if there be not , we are sorry he should report us to teach o● seeme to teach , that which to our remembrance we never said nor thought . and sure it is , we have expresly said the direct contrary in page 7 , the page next save one afore this which heere he is dealing against , where wee have these words , it seemeth to us ( say we ) that this power , viz. by disquisition and disputation to cleere up the rule ( and then to command obedience thereto ) is not properly a power and exercise of government and jurisdiction , but a power of doctrine , and so a synod is rather a teaching then a governing church . these are our words in the page afore alledged ; wherein we plainly expresse what the power of synods seemeth unto us to be , even the direct contrary to that which he saith we seeme to make it ; wee on the one side affirming and expressing , that it seemes to us , the power of a synod is no power of government and iurisdiction , but a power of doctrine : and he on the other side reporting that we seeme to make the exercise of dogmaticall power to be formally an act of church-government , and so to place church-government in the synod . in which report we must needs say , wee are plainly mis-reported . his second answer is this . the last period and conclusion of the controversie cannot be both in the congregation by right only , and in the synod by right only : for two last powers cannot be properly in two subordinate iudicatures . answ . this is very true , but it toucheth not us at all . for we never said the last period of the controversie is both in the congregation only , and in the synod onely . if we have so said , let the place be produced where we have said it ; for the place by him alledged doth afford us no such thing , nor any place else that we know of . all that the place affords concerning this point is only this , that there is a power of cleering the truth dogmatically in a synod , though not in a synod only , but also in the presbytery of a single congregation . and this doctrine i hope our brother will not deny . but whether this power be last in the synod , or in the congregationall presbytery , of this we do not speaks at all ; much lesse do we say as he doth apprehend and report , that this power is both last in the synod and last in the congregation too . wherefore our defence in this particular must needs be this ; that what here he confuteth to be outs , is such a thing as never fell from our mouths or pens , nor for ought we know did never enter into our thoughts . thirdly , he saith . if a controversie concerne many congregations as this doth act. 15. i see not how a congregation except they transgresse their line , can finally determine it . answ . neither doth this touch us , except we had said that a congregation may finally determine controversies which concerne many churches , which yet we have not said . as for that controversie act. 15. it is plaine from verse 2 , that antioch did endeavour to have ended it amongst themselves , so far as they were troubled therewith . for some teaching that corrupt doctrine amongst them , they had much disputation about the point afore they determined to send out for helpe elsewhere . now to what end was thus much disputation , if they had no right to determine the matter ? might they not better have spared their paines ? or did they not transgresse their line in attempting what they did attempt ? sure it seemes they did , if they had not right to determine the matter . but for our part , sith we do not find them in the least reproved by the holy ghost for this attempt , therfore we cannot but think they did well therein . and thereupon it followeth , that if antioch was a congregationall church ( as it seemes to us it was , from act. 14. 27. ) either this controversie did trouble no church but antioch only , or else when a controversie or corrupt opinion doth trouble many churches , one of them may lawfully determine and end it , so farre at it concernes themselves . chap. v. againe of that assembly , act. 15. whether their rebuking the false teachers do prove a power of iurisdiction and excommunication in synods : and whether preaching doe prove the assembly where it is , to be a church . the new place where i find him excepting against the answer , it in his pag. 410. where he proposeth an object . to this effect , to wit. paul exercised the keyes of knowledge upon barbarians , and might have preached to indians , and did to scoffing athenians — yea paul by this power dogmaticall rebuked the athenians , act. 17. 22. yet paul had no power to excommunicate the athenians . and then he subjoyneth my name , and cites in the margent the 43 , and 44 pages of the answer . answ . this objection being taken from pauls rebuking the athenians , our brother had no reason to propose it under mr. tompsons 〈◊〉 and mine , for as much as in all that discourse of ours , the athenians to my rememb●ance are not so much as once mentioned : sure in the pages by him alledged there is no mention of the athenians at all . and therefore why this objection should bee proposed and reported by him as ours , wee doe not know . which i doe not say , 〈◊〉 though i thought the objection so weake , as though the authors of it may not well owne it . for from whosoever the objection came , for ought that i yet perceive there is good weight therein . for which cause , and because in one of those pages wee have delivered something concerning a ministers power to preach to pagans in generall , ( though nothing concerning the atheni●ns in particular , as hee reporteth ) therefore i am willing to consider what mr. rutherfor● saith , for the satisfying of the objection proposed , as not willing to passe by any thing without consideration , wherein our selves may seeme to be concerned or aymed at i deny not saith he , but there is a great oddes betwixt a concionall rebuking by way of preaching , which may be and is alwayes performed by one , and a juridicall rebuking by a power jurididicall of the keyes , which is performed only by a church society . answ . if all this were granted , you the objection is not satisfied , nor his purpose gained thereby . for the cleering whereof it is good to consider the thing in question , and how this objection comes in , and whereto it tends , and then we may better descerne how the objection is removed by mr. rutherfords answer : the thing in question is , whether a synod have power of iurisidiction and excommunication . mr. rutherford his scope in that place is to prove the affirmative ; and therefore for a dozen or 14 pages together , hee hath these words in the top of every lease , the power of a synod a power of jurisdiction : and his medium to prove this tenent is this ; because a synod hath power to rebuke . whereupon ensueth the objection , that paul might rebuke the athenians and yet might not excommunicate them ; and therefore enough a synod may rebuke , it followes not that they may excommunicate . this is the order of the dispute , as is plainly to bee seeme by p●●●sing the place . and now comes in the answer which mr. rutherford gives to the objection ; to wit , that there is a great odds betwixt a concionall rebuking and a juridicall , the one being performed by one , and the other by many ; which answer i conceive is not sufficient , because this difference may hee granted and many more may be added if hee please , and yet the thing in question not gained , nor the objection removed at all . for what though a concionall rebuking be performed by one , and a iuridicall by many ? yet still it remaineth cleare , that there may bee rebuking where there is no iurisdiction ; and therefore , though a synod may rebuke , it followes not that they may excommunicate , nor have power of iurisdiction . if our brother would have satisfied the objection , he should not have satisfyed himselfe with alledging the difference mentioned betweene a concionall rebuking , and a iuridicall or synodicall ; but should have proved that there cannot be any concionall rebuking at all , at least wise not any rebuking of athenians who are not subject to excommunication , and if this had been proved , the objection had been fully removed . but this he hath not proved at all , nor once attempted to prove it , but plainly yeelds the contrary ; and therefore for ought i see the objection remayneth in its strength , and so the strength of his argument removed thereby , who would prove the synod , power of iurisdiction from their power of rebuking . but let as heare what he answereth in the words ensuing . it cannot be denyed saith he , but the rebuking of men because they subverted soules , verse 24. is not a meere concionall rebuking which may be performed by one . first , it is a rebuking verse 24. second , it is a rebuking performed by many , by a whole synod , 6. 22. third , it is performed by a politicall society . answ , and what of all this ? may it not neverthelesse be denyed that this rebuking was any other then in a doctrinall way ? be it granted , that it was a rebuking , and a rebuking performed by many ; and if were granted by a politicall society too ; must it needs follow that therefore it was iuridicall , or in way of iurisdiction ? i see no necessity of such consequence . nay , master rutherford himselfe doth confesse ( as we heard afore ) in his page 393. that the specification of this rebuke must not be fetched from the efficient causes , because one apostle might himselfe alone have rebuked these obtruders of circumcision . if therefore it were granted that many persons , a whole synod , a politicall society , or what ever else he will call them , were the efficient causes of this rebuke , yet all this is too little to prove that the rebuke was iuridicall , unlesse the specification of it must be fetched from the efficient causes , which master rutherford himselfe disclaymes . moreover , i would put this case : suppose a pagan or a christian of another nation and kingdome , shall come into a church assembly , whether the assembly be a congregationall church , or a synod ; and in the assembly shall openly and scandalously misbehave himselfe in one kind or other , to the dishonour of god , and grieving of the godly , and the danger of corrupting others that shall behold such bad example . i would gladly know whether this assembly be it synod or other , may not lawfully rebuke this scandalous practice and behaviour , and if they may , whether it would follow therupon that they may also lawfully excommunicate the man , if his sin and impenitency shall deserve the same . if it be said they may , i would know : quo jure ? and who gave them such authority to excommunicate pagans , or men of another nation , being only there present at that time occasionally ? and if they may not so proceed against such a person , then the answer to master rutherfords alledgements in the case we have in hand , is ready and plaine : for as he alledgeth , first , here is a rebuking . second , a rebuking of many , even a whole synod . third , of a politicall society and body ; even so the same may be said in this case in all the particulars ; for first , here is a rebuking . second , rebuking of many . third , by a politicall society and body : and yet all this is too little to prove a power of iurisdiction and excommunication in the case proposed ; and therefore i see not how it can be sufficient to prove such a power in a synod , for which purpose master rutherford brings it . of necessity for ought that i see , one of these must be said , either that this assembly have no power to rebuke the man , but must suffer his sin to be upon him , though god be dishonoured , and others endangered thereby ; or else it must be said they have power to excommunicate him as well as to rebuke him ; ( neither of which i conceive can safely be said ) or if neither of these can be said , it must then follow that their may be power to rebuke , even in an assembly of many persons , a politicall society ; and yet the same assembly have no power at all to excommunicate the persons so rebuked , and so this learned brothers arguing is answered . likewise , i suppose it will not be denyed , but one congregation if need so require , may rebuke and reprove another congregation , though neither of them be superiour to other , but both of them equall and independant of each other in regard of subjection , mr. rutherf . confesseth , p. 294. that congregations and churches may admonish and rebuke each other , and sure it is , that scripture , cant. 8. 8. we have a little sister , what shall we do for her ? doth shew that churches ought to take care one for the good of another . and if they must take care and consult for one another , there is the like reason that they should reprove and admonish one another , as need shall require . now when one church doth so practise towards another , it cannot be denyed , but here are the same things which mr. rutherford speakes of , first , a rebuking second , a rebuking performed by many . third , a rebuking performed by a politicall society and body . but can any man inferre from hence , that the church thus rebuking another church hath power to excommunicate that other church ? i suppose none will affirme it . and if this may not be affirmed , i do not see how rebuking performed by many even by a whole synod , can be any sufficient ground to prove that the synod hath power to excommunicate . the apostles and elders ( saith our author ) are not considered here as meerely preachers and teachers in the act of teaching ; for why then should they not be formally a church assembly , if they be an assembly meeting for preaching the word ? pag. 411. 412. answ . when the text acts 15 , doth mention sometimes the multitude , verse 12. sometimes the brethren , verse 23. sometimes the whole church , verse 22. besides the apostles and elders , we know no absurdity in it , if one should say , here was formally a church and a church assembly ; in which church-assembly the apostles and elders were teachers and preachers , though they alone were not the church . yet though wee thinke heere was a church , and a church-assembly ; wee do not thinke mr. rutherford reason doth prove them so to be . for paul and s●las were preachers of the word in the prison at philippi , act 16. and at mar●hill , and the market-place at athens , act. 17. and yet we thinke it hard to inferre thence , that these assemblies were formally churches . yea but saith our author , the exercise of the keyes of knowledge in the hearing of a multitude , is essentially an act of preaching of the word , page 412. answ this is very true indeed , an act of preaching the word it must needs bee , the word preaching being taken in its utmost latitude . but is not unavoidably and alwayes a church-act , or an act that infallibly proves the assembly , where such an act is performed , to be formally a church ? this is the thing that should have been cleered , or else the thing is not cleered ; but this our reverend author doth not cleere at all ; and the contrary is very plaine from sundry instances in the acts , where the apostles did exercise the key of knowledge in the hearing of multitudes in sundry places , where yet for all this there was not forthwith any church ; and therfore , whereas he saith , the apostles and elders are not considered in this assembly as preachers and teachers in the act of teaching , because then the assembly should have been formally a church , we rather thinke they that shall consider it will find that the apostles did , and other elders in these dayes may put forth the act of teaching and preaching in some assemblies ( suppose assemblies of turkes and indians ) and yet the assemblies not thereby proved to be churches . chap. vi. whether the power of synods be a power of iurisdiction ; and of the dependance of the synagogues upon the synedrion at jerusalem . next of all , in his page 414 in a 16 . th objection in this and the former page he saith thus , therefore was the synagogue of the jewes no compleat church , because all the ordinances of god cannot be performed in the synagogue : and therefore , were the jewes commanded only at ierusalem , and in no other place to keepe the passeover and to offer offerings and sacrifices which were ordinary worship : but there is not any worshiper sacred ordinance ( saith that worthy divine dr. ames ) of preaching , praying , sacraments , &c. prescribed , which is not to be observed in every congregation of the new testament , — and then he subjoyneth mr. tompsons name and mine ; and in his margent cites the answer , page 12 , 13. and further saith in the objection , that others say because there was a representative worship of sacrificing of all the twelve tribes at ierusalem , therefore all the synagogues were dependant churches , and ierusalem the supreame and highest church . answ . to leave what is alledged a● objected by others , and to consider only of that which concernes our selves . because the synagogues in israel were dependant on the great synedrion at ierusalem , therefore some would inferre that congregations in these dayes must be dependant on the iurisdiction of synods . to this argument we are endeavouring to give answer in the place alledged by mr. rutherford , where we shew that the synagogues might be dependant and not compleat churches , because the sacred ordinances of god which were of ordinary use , could not be performed in them ; but congregations in these dayes compleat and intire as having liberty to enjoy the use of all the ordinances within themselves : for both which particulars we alledge the testimony and words of dr. ames . the summe is thus much : if the synagogues could not enjoy all the ordinances within themselves , and our congregations may , then though the synogogues were dependant on the synedrion at jerusalem , it will not follow that congregations in these dayes must be dependant on synods . this is the 〈◊〉 of that which is said in the answer : in the place which mr. rutherford alledges . now what answer doth he returne to this passage ? truly none at all that i can find . none will you say ? how can that be ? doth he not propound it in his 16 . th objection , as that which he undertakes to answer ? i confesse he doth so , but neverthelesse all that he hath set down for answer is wholly taken up and spent in two other things , the objection which he proposeth as ours , being wholly left untouched . those two things are these ; the one an answer to another passage of ours in another place of the answer , the other an answer to the last part of his objection , which himselfe doth acknowledge to bee the saying of others , and not ours ; and therefore hee brings it in thus viz. others say , because there was a representative worship , &c. by those words , others say , plainly declaring that what he thus expresseth , proceedeth not from us , but from others . and so though he returne answer to this saying of others , and to another saying of ours which we have written elsewhore , yet for this of ours which he proposeth in this h●s objection , i find no answer thereto at all . and therefore i thinke the thing remaines as it was , unlesse wee shall take his meere proposing of it for a satisfying answer , which we see no reason to do . neverthelesse , though he turnes away from this passage of ours without returning any answer thereto , yet there is another which he applies himselfe more directly against , and therefore to this sixteenth objection hee begging his answer thus , surely the aforesaid reverend brethren of new-england have these words , but it seemeth to us the power ( of a synod ) is not properly a power and exercise of government and iurisdiction , but a power of doctrine , and so a synod is rather a teaching then a governing church : from whence ( saith he ) i inferre , that our brethren cannot deny a power of governing to a synod , but it is not so proper governing as excommunication and ordination performed in their congregations ; but say i , it is more properly governing as to make lawes and rules of governing is a more noble , emin●nt and higher act of governing ( as is evident in the king and his parliament ) then the execution of ●hese lawes and rules . answ . so then , th●se former words of ours proposed in the objection , are wholly forsaken and left , and instead of answering them , he fals as we set upon other words which we have written elsewhere , and applies himselfe to deale against those other . by which dealing the considerate reader may judge whether the former words being thus handsomly forsaken and left , do not still remaine in their strength : and whether it had not been as good never to have proposed them at all in his objection , as having proposed them to turne away directly and immediately from them unto other matters , without returning one word of answer to the former . the wise in heart may consider what this doth import . but sich he is pleased to acquit the former and to apply himselfe to the other , let us therefore leave the former in its strength and unshaken , and consider of what he saith in this other . wherein when he speakes of making lawes and rules of governing , either he me●nes this making lawes and rules properly so called , or else he meanes it onely of a ministeriall power to cleere up the lawes and rules of christ , and in his name to com●and obedience thereto . and it seemes by the instance which he gives of the king and his parliament , that he intends the former sence . and if so , then the answer is that this noble , eminent , and high act of governing as he cals it , doth not belong to any synods upon earth , but only to the lord iesus christ in heaven , the script●res abundantly witnessing , that he only is the lord and law giver to his church , l●● . 4. 12. isa . 33. 22. for the cleering of which point , much needs not to be said , considering that this learned brother himselfe doth elsewhere directly and in expresse termes co●fesse as much as we desire in this matter . for in one place speaking in one place of a power to prescribe rules and lawes , he doth not only distinguish them from lawes p●operly so called by the word directive , calling them directive lawes , but also for further explaining his mind , annexeth these words . they are not properly lawes which the church prescribeth : christ is the only law-giver : due right , page 395. and in the page following speaking of a societies or a synods power of making lawes , he addeth for explanation thus , i take not here lawes for lawes properly so called , but for ministeriall directories , having ecclesiasticall authority . so then the church or the synod hath no power at all to make lawes properly so called , for christ ●s the onely law giver : and if so , then the governing power of sy●ods which our brother would prove by this noble and eminent and high power of making lawes is not proved thereby at all , in as much as this noble and eminent power of making lawes doth not belong to any synods upon earth , but to christ only . and this may be an answer to what he saith or a synods power to make lawes , it lawes be taken in their proper sense . but if he intend not this sense and meaning in the place we are speaking of , but only the latter , viz that synods have power to cleere up the lawes and rules of christ , and to command obedience thereto , then i confesse the answer in the 7 . th page thereof doth acknowledge such power to belong unto synods , but how this can prove their power of iurisdiction and government properly so called , which mr. rutherford would thence inferre , we for our parts do not yet perceive . for the power here described is but a meere doctrinall power , and we have given sundry instances in the answer , pag. 43. 44. to shew that there may be a power by way of doctrine to cleere up the rules and lawes of christ , and to command obedience thereto , where yet there is no power by way of iurisdiction and discipline to punish the breach of those rules ; which instance , this reverend brother doth not satisfie at all . and therefore though synods have power to cleere up the rules and lawes of christ , and to command obedience thereto ( which power we deny them not ) yet that which he from thence would inferre , that they have also a power of government and iurisdiction , doth not follow from thence at all , unlesse we shall say , that doctrine and discipline , doctrine and iurisdiction or government are the same . briefly thus : a power of mak●ng lawes properly so called is a noble and eminent kind of government , but this power doth not belong unto synods , but to christ . a power of cleering up christs lawes , and commanding in his name obedience thereunto doth belong unto synods , but this is no power of iurisdiction and government , but a ministeriall power of doctrine , and so still our tenent doth stand , that a synod if it may be called a church , is rather a teaching then a governing church . secondly , saith our author , our brethren incline to make a synod a teaching church . answ . we never yet absolutely yeelded that a synod might be called a church , 〈◊〉 on the contrary , wee have said , that unlesse it could be proved that in scripture the name of a church is given to a synod , we are not to be blamed though we give not a synod that name . answ . pag. 1. the most that we have yeelded in this point is this , that for the name we will not contend , and that if a synod may be called a church , then sith they have power by disputation to cleere up the rule , they are rather a teaching then a governing church . answer pag. 1. & 7. this is all we have said , and we desire our words may not be stretched beyond our intent and scope therein . but let us heare what our brother would hence inferre . i inferre , saith he , that synodicall teaching by giving out decrees , tying many churches , as our brethren of new-england and the forenamed authors teach , is an ordinance of christ , that can be performed in no single congregation on earth , for a doctrinall cannon of one congregation can lay any ecclesiasticall tye upon many churches , ergo by this reason our congregations shall be dependant as were the jewish synagogues . answ . when he saith the brethren of new-england and the authors of the answer do teach a synodicall teaching by giving out decrees tying many churches , and aledgeth for proofe in his margent , answ . 7. to 32. q. 9. 14. page 43 , 44. and answer to mr. herle , chap. 4. pag. 40. 41 with favour of so learned a man , wee must returne this answer , that neither of the palces alledged will make good his purpose , in as much as neither of them doth make any mention at all of the thing which he reports them to teach , viz. such synodicall teaching as gives out decrees tying many churches . let the places be viewed and the thing will be found as i say . and therefore how they can be said to teach that which they neither teach nor mention , doth surmount my ability to conceive . if the reader would know what it is that is taught in the places , it is no more but this , that in some cases it is requisite that churches should seeke for light and counsell and advice from other churches , as antioch , did send unto ierusalem in a question which they wanted ability to determine amongst themselves , and that there ought to be synods , and that we thinke that meeting act 15. might be such an one . the first of these is taught in the form●● of the places , and the other in the other . but for giving out synodicall decrees tying many churches , this same be it within the power of synods or otherwise , is 〈◊〉 taught at all in either of the places , except wee shall say ( which we thinke were unreasonable ) that there can be no synods , nor consulting of other churches for light and counsell and advice , but there must be in those other churches so consulted withall , a power to give out binding decrees , yea decrees that shall bind or tye many churches . we thinke this latter doth no wayes necessarily follow upon the former ; and therefore though the places alledged do speake to the former , yet the latter which this author reports them to teach , they do not teach at all . secondly , i answer further , that if such a doctrine were indeed taught in the places by him alledged or any other , yet the inference which he would thence bring in , that then our congregations shall be dependant as were the iewish synagogues , th●s same doth not follow at all : and the reason is , because the synagogues were dependant on the supreame synedrion not only for light and counsell , no nor only for doctrinall cannons or decrees , but also for iurisdiction and discipline , that synodrion being their supreame court , to whose sentence they were all bound under paine of death to submit , as is cleere , deut. 17. 11 , 12. and therefore if it were granted ( which yet we do not see proved ) that synods may give out decrees and doctrinall cannons , that shall tye many churches , it doth not follow that our congregations shall therefore be dependant as were the iewish synagogues , except it were also proved that they must depend upon synods in point of iurisdiction and discipline , as well as in point of doctrine , yea and so depend as that the sentence of those synods must be obeyed under paine of death . sure the synagogues and every member of them were in this sort dependant upon the supreame synedrion : but we hope 〈◊〉 reverend brother will not say that congregations must in this sort be dependant upon synods . at the least wise this we hope he will not deny , that every member of a church is bound to depend upon the pastor of that church in point of doctrine ; and yet it will not follow that he must depend upon one pastor alone in point of iurisdiction and d●scipline . and the reason is , because doctrine may be dispenced by one pastor alone , but discipline must be dispenced by a church , which one pastor alone cannot be . and therefore if congregations were to be dependant upon synods in point of doctrine , it would not follow that they must bee dependant in point of iurisdiction and discipline . thirdly , saith he , it is a begging of the question to make ierusalem the supreame church and the synagogues dependant churches ; because it it was lawfull only at ierusalem to sacrafice ; for i hold that ierusalem was a dependant church no lesse then the smallest synagogues in all their trybes . and so he proceedeth largely , to shew that sacrificing at ierusalem did not make ierusalem supreame . answ . it this were even so as is pleaded , yet that which we have said of the compleatnesse of the synagogues and of their dependancie is not at all removed thereby : and the reason is , because we do not make the synagogues dependant nor ierusalem supreame , meerely upon this ground , because ierusalem alone was the place of sacrificing , but this is the ground upon which chiefly we go , that at ierusalem was the synedrion upon whom all israell must depend for judgement , and from whose sentence there was no appeale , which ground wee still thinke doth prove both the incomplearnesse of the synagogues , and the supremacie of the synedrion , and the contrary to this must be cleered if our tenent in this matter be removed . true it is , we thinke it some argument of the synagogues incompleatnesse and imperfection that they were not permitted to enjoy all the ordinances which were of ordinary use : but the supremacie of ierusalem we do not place in this only , that there was the place for sacrifice but in this withall that the supreame iudicatory was there , upon which all israell must depend , and from the which there must be no appeale . and yet this supremacie we do not place in ierusalem considered a part from the synedrion , but in the synedrion it selfe . and therefore , whereas he saith , pag. 415. that we might as well conclude that all the cities and incorporations of england are dependant upon london , inasmuch as the parliament useth there to sit , i conceive the comparison doth not sute , because as we do not place the supremacie in london or in westminster , considered apart from the parliament , but in the parliament which useth there to sit , so we place not the supremacie amongst the iewes in ierusalem considered apart from the synedrion , but in the synedrion it selfe , which was there seated . but because our reverend brother in the latter end of this 16 . th objection bringeth in this particular of ierusalems supremacie by reason of the sacrifices , with others say , therefore i conceive he intends not us therein , but some body else , and therefore i will proceed to the next wherein our selves are concerned . chap. vii . whether the lawfulnesse or necessity of appeales doe prove a superiority of iurisdiction in synods over congregations , and of sundry sayings of our author which seeme to interfere . in his page 422. he propounds a 19 . th objection to this effect , if the government of consociated churches be warranted by the light of nature , then this light of nature being common to us in civill as in ecclesiasticall causes , it will follow that every city governed with rulers within it selfe ▪ must be subordinate to a classe of many cities , and that classe to a nationall meeting of all the cities : and the nationall government to be a catholike or oecumenicke civill court — . and because by the same light of nature there must bee some finall and supreame iudgement of controversies , least appeales should be spun out in infinitum , it must be proved that this supremacie lyeth not in a congregation . and in the margent he citeth mr. tompson and my selfe in page 16 and page 10 , of the answer , as authors of this last bassis in the o●ectjection . answ . it is true that in one of those pages alledged we speake to the like purpose as here is reported . for we there suppose it to be cleere by the light of nature , that there must be some finall and supreame judgement of causes , and that unlesse it be determined where that supremacie doth lye , ( which we account the very thing in question ) we say the usefulnesse and necessity of appeales may be granted , and yet we shall be still at uncertainty about the thing in question , and as much to seeke as before , because that there ought to be appeales til you come to the highest is one thing , and that a synod and not a congregation is the highest is another . to this purpose we have written in one of those pages , the summe whereof is this much ; that though the usefulnesse of appeales till you come to the highest be granted , yet the supremacie of synods over congregations in matter of iudicature is not concluded thereby . now what doth our reverend brother returne in his answer ? doth he prove the contrary to what is here affirmed by us ? doth he cleere it sufficiently , that if it bee once granted that there must be appeales till you come to the highest , then the supremacie of synods over congregations must inevitably follow ? i conceive the necessity of this consequence had need to be cleered , if that which we have said be sufficiently answered . but doth our brother cleere this ? or doth he so much as once attempt the cleering thereof ? surely to speake freely what i find , i find nothing that looketh that way , and therfore cannot but wonder why our opinion should be alledged in this objection , and so his reader be led into expectation of some sufficient answer thereto , and then the answer which he returnes to be taken up in other matters , our opinion proposed in the objection , being wholly in his answer left untouched . if that saying of ours be not sound , why doth he not returne some answer ? if it be sound and good , why doth he make an objection of it , and so breed an apprehension in weake readers of its unsoundnesse , and put them in hope of a confutation , when no such thing is performed ? i leave it to the wise in heart to consider what this doth argue . neverthelesse , let us consider of what he doth returne for answer , page 423. first he saith , appeales being warranted by the counsell which iethro gave to moses — cannot but be naturall ? answ . suppose this be so , what can there be concluded hence , that makes against us ? cannot appeales be naturall , but the supremacie of synods over congregations must needs follow ? if there must be an highest , must it needs be yeelded that the synod and not the congregation is that highest ? i conceive this needs not to be yeelded at all , and therefore though appeales be naturall , i see not what is gained thereby . againe , he saith , god hath appointed that the supremacie should lye within the bounds of every free monarchy or state , so that there can be no appeale to any oecumenicall or catholike civill church , for that is against the independant power that god hath given to states . answ . let this be granted also , and are we not still where we were before ? is there in this any thing at all that doth make for the removall of our opinion , as himselfe hath see it down in his objection ? we may truly say we see it not . no , nor in that which doth follow , viz. but in the church it is farre otherwise , for god hath appoynted no vissible monarchy in his church , nor no such independency of policie within a congregation , classicall provinciall or nationall church . answ . for that which is said of a visible monarchy in the church , i confesse it is true , god hath appointed none such . but for the rest , of these words , sith they containe an expresse denyall of the supremacie of all ecclesiasticall iudicatures , except it be the generall councell , i would gladly know how our tenent afore expressed is disproved , or how the necessity of that consequence afore mentioned is at all cleered hereby . if there be no independencie of policie in congregations , nor yet in any synods exc●pt it be the oecumenicall , doth this prove that the supremacie doth lye in synods and not in the congregation ? nothing lesse : for how can our brother prove that it lyes in the one and not in the other , by saying as here he doth , that indeed it lyes in neither ? or how is that consequence made good , that if there must be appeales till we come to the highest , then the synod is the highest ? how is this i say made good by affirming , that neither the congregation nor the synod is the highest ? for my part i must confesse it passeth my understanding to conceive , how the denying of a thing should be the proving and cleering thereof . and yet except this be admitted , i know not how our apprehension in the matter we have in hand is at all disproved . for whereas we say , appeales may be granted and yet the supremacie of synods over congregations will not follow , mr. rutherford for the disproving of what wee apprehend herein , doth bring nothing in the place wee have in hand but only this , that the supremacie doth neither lye in the congregation nor in the synod . which is no disproving of us all , except as i said , that the denying of a thing may suffice for the confirming and cleering thereof . for i conceive if we be disproved the supremacie of synods must be proved and cleered , which here our brother doth not , but on the contrary denies the same . furthermore , if there be no independency of policie within a congregation , a classicall , provinciall or nationall church , as here our brother affirmeth , then what shall become of that which he tels us elsewhere , viz. page 483. that that remedie of our saviour , tell the church , is not needfull in any church above a nationall ? for sure if there be no independencie of policie in any of the lesser churches , nor yet in the nationall church , one would thinke that of our saviour should be needfull in some church above the nationall . or if it be nor needfull in any church above nationall , then one would thinke there should be some indepencie of policie in the nationall church , or in some of the former . for my part i know not how this difficulty will be expedited , i meane how both these sayings of our brother can stand good , except we shall say that which i suppose he will not say , viz. that independencie of policie is no where . and yet i cannot see but this must be said , if both the other sayings stand good ? for if independencie of policie be neither in the nationall church nor in any church above it , nor in any church below it , i know not where we shall have it . againe , if there be no independencie of policie in any of the churches afore named , what shall we say to that passage where our brother doth verily professe , that he cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandals can be in a generall councell , affirming further , that there might be some meerly doctrinall power if such a councell could be had , and that is all , pag 482. for if there be no independencie of policie in any church below a generall councell , one would thinke there should be in the generall councill some power of iurisdiction to censure scandals , yea and an independant power too ▪ or if there be not such power in the generall councill , nor yet in the nationall church , nor in any church below the nationall , we must then say there is no independant power of iurisdiction to censure scandals in any church upon earth . which latter if it be not owned , as i conceive our brother will no● , i know not how the other two can both stand . though appeales be warranted both in church and state by the light of nature , yet appeales to exotique and forraigne judicatures is not warranted by any such light , but rather the contrary . answ . let this be granted also , and are we ever a whit neerer to the point , then before ? is this good arguing , appeales to exotique indicatures are not warrantable , ergo a synod and not the congregation is the supreame iudicature ? is this consequence strong and cleere ? if it be not , how is our tenent removed ? if our brother intend it not for a removall thereof , why is it brought in for answer to an objection proposed by himselfe as ours ? further , let this sentence be compared with the former immediately preceding , and more difficulties still arise . for in this he tels us we see , that appeales to forraigne judicatures are not warrantable ; and in the other he tels us as wee heard afore , that there is no independencie of policie within a congregation , a classicall , provinciall , or nationall church . now to find how these things do agree , i am at a losse , for if there bee no independencie of policie in the congregation , nor the other churches mentioned , i should have thought , it might have been lawfull to have appealed from them to others . for why may there not bee appeales from them in whom no independen●ie of policie is seated ? yet now we are restrained from such appeales , for that all other iudicatures are accounted forraigne and exotique . so that of two sentences the one immediately following upon the other , the former tels us there is no independencie of policie in any of the churches mentioned , which are domesticque and neere , and the other tels us that other churches are so exotique and forraigne , that appeales to them are unwarrantable : and what to say for the reconciling of these things , i must confesse i find not . i grant it is true , appeales to exotique and forraigne iudicatures are not warrantable . but why are we not certified what iudicatures are to be accounted exotique and forraigne ? for here i conceive lyes the pinch of the question ; and unlesse this be determined , the thing in question is still left at uncertainty . for as in civill states there are many cities and townes which have independent power within themselves , as geneva , strasburgh , zuricke , basill , and many others , and appeales from any of these , though to the city or town next adjoyning , would be to a iudicature exotique or forraigne , so some are apt to conceive the like of congregationall churches . and therefore it had need to be cleered that appeales from such churches is not to exotique and forraigne iudicatures ; for if this be not cleered , the unlawfulnesse of appeales to forraigne and exotique powers may be granted , and the question will remaine uncleered . church appeales though warranted by the light of nature , yet it is supposed they be rationall , and grounded on good reason , as that either the matter belong not to the congregation , or then it bee certain or morally presumed the congregation will be partiall or unjust , or the businesse bee difficill and intricate ; and if appeales be groundlesse and unjust , neither christ nor natures light doth warrant them . yea in such case the supremacie from which no man can lawfully appeale , lyeth sometime in the congregation sometime in the classicall presbytery , so as it is unlawfull to appeale for illud tantum possumus quod jure possumus . answ . the short summe is thus much , that appeales are then lawfull when there is just ground and reason for them , otherwise they are unlawfull . now first of all how doth this prove ( for we would still keep to the point ) the necessity of that consequence whereof we speak afore , viz. that if appeales be lawfull , then there is a supremacie of syno●s over congregations . i conceive it is not proved hereby all ; but contrarily appeales may be granted lawfull , when there is just reason and ground for them , and yet the supremacie of synods over congregations is still uncle●red . nextly , it still remaines a question , who must be judge of the reasonablenesse of the appeale and of those cases that are put to shew when they are reasonable , viz. that the matter belongs not to the congregation and the rest that are named : and unlesse it be cleered to whom it belongs to judge these things , we are still left at uncertainty , in the maine matter , viz. in whom the supremacie doth lye , from whom we may not appeale . for to say as our reverend author doth , that in some case the supremacie from which no man can lawfully appeale , lyeth in the congregation , and sometimes it doth not : appeales when they are grounded upon good reason are warrantable , else they are not : when the matter belongs not to the congregation or the congregation will be partiall and unjust , or when the businesse is diffic●ll and intricate , then we may appeale from the congregation , else we may not , these things i say doe not cleere the matter at all , because still the question remaines who must be judge of these things , whether the party appealing , or the congregation from whom , or the synod to whom the appeale is made : and unlesse this be determined , the things mentioned alledged by our brother do afford us small help in the matter for the cleering of it . and therefore , what we said in the answer doth still for ought i see remaine sound , viz. that there must be some finall and supreame judgement that controversies may not by appeales after appeales be spun out in infinitum , and to determine where that supremacie doth lye , is the maine question , which unlesse it be determined , the usefulnesse of appeales may be granted , and yet we shall be still at uncertainty about the thing in question and as much to seeke as before , because that there ought to be appeales till you come to the highest is one thing , and that a synod and n●t the congregation is the highest is another . now whether our brother in that which we have hitherto heard have sufficiently cleered it unto us , that we may know where this supremacie doth lye , i leave it to the iudicious to consider . chap. viii . whether antioch , act. 15. had right to have ended the controversie amongst themselves , if they had been able ; and whether their sending to jerusalem for helpe , or their knowledge that other churches were troubled with the like evill , or the party among themselves who were against the truth , doe prove the contrary . and of supremacy of power in congregations . bvt though our author doe not cleere it to us where the supremacie doth lye yet in this pag 423 , and 424. he useth an argument from the practise of the church of antioch , act. 15. and our own doctrine concerning the same to prove that it doth not lye in the congregation , which argument we are willing to consider . his words are those . that supremacie of power should bee in a congregation without any power of appealing , i thinke our brethren cannot teach . for when the church of antioch cannot judge a matter concerning the necessity of keeping moses law , they by natures direction , act. 15. 2. decree to send paul and barnabas and others to jerusalem , to the apostles and elders , as to an higher judicature , that there truth may be determined : and then he addeth that mr. tompson and my selfe do teach that the church of antioch had jus , power to judge and determine the controversie , but because of the difficulty , had not light to judge thereof ( alledging for this in the margent the answer , chap. 4. page 42. ) ergo saith he , they must acknowledge appeales by natures light warrantable , as well as wee . answ . that appeales are warrantable , and warrantable by natures light till we come to the supreame judicatorie , this we deny not , but have formerly yeelded no lesse . but for that our brother here aymes at , viz. appeales from a congregationall church ( as not being supreame ) to another iudicatory , this we conceive is not proved by the example of the church of antioch , nor by any thing that we have written concerning the same and the reason it because antioch had right and authority to have ended the matter amongst themselves if ability had served thereto : and their sending to ierusalem for helpe may argue want of agreement , or imperfection of light , but argues no want of authority or right within themselves . for it is plain verse 2 , that antioch did endeavour to have ended the matter amongst themselves , and had much disputation about it for that end , afore there was any speech of sending to ierusalem . now this endeavour doth argue their right ; for otherwise it had been sinfull , as being a presuming to do that which did not belong to them . this reason we have rendered afore in the place which our author alledgeth , and he doth not at all remove it ; and therefore we are still of the same mind as before , that antioch was not dependant upon the iurisdiction of other churches , but had independant power within themselves , as many may have who yet need the help of light from others , for their direction in using their power . great kings and monarchs have received light from their councellours without any impeac●ment of their independant power , which they have in themselves , and without any ascribing of that power to those their counsellours . as we said in the place alledged , antioch may send to ierusalem for help , and yet this sending neither prove right of iurisdiction in them who are sent unto , nor want of iurisdiction in them who do send . and therefore whereas our brother saith , antioch because of the difficulty of the controversie , had not light to judge thereof , ergo we must acknowledge appeales to be warrantable , we would rather argue thus , antioch wanted light , ergo counsell and light is to be sought elsewhere ; and thus we conceive the inference will hold : but to say , ergo there must be appeales from the congregation to others in matter of iurisdiction , this we conceive will not follow at all . no more then it will follow , kings or other supreame civill rulers must seek light and direction from their counsellours , ergo there lyes an appeale from them to those counsellours , which consequence none will maintain nor affirme . if the scriptures had said that antioch did never attempt to ●nd that controversie , as knowing that the ending thereof belonged not to them but to others : or if it had said , that the censuring of these obtruders of circumcision had been performed by them of jerusalem , and not by them of antioch as not belonging to antioch but to them of jerusalem , then our brother might have had some ground from antioch to prove the necessity or warrantablenesse of appeales from congregationall churches to other iudicatories : but such no such thing is said , we see not how this example can be any ground for the establishing of such appeales , or the taking away from congregationall churches their power of iurisdiction within themselves . especially , wee see not how this our brother can alledge the same for such a purpose , considering what himselfe hath written elsewhere in this learned treatise of his wherein he examines that answer of ours . two passages in his treatise i propound to consideration , which seeme to me to make for that independant or supreame power in congregations , which here he is disputing against , the one is that which we touched before in his page 413. where he saith that synods in case of neglect of presbyteriall churches are to command the particular churches whom it concerneth , to do their dutie , as in other particulars there named , so in excommunication of offenders ; and further that the synod , act. 15. is to remit the censure of excommunication to the presbytery of antioch and ierusalem , in case of the obstina●ie of these obtruders of circumcision . which i conceive is very truly spoken , and thereupon it followes that there was a supremacie of iurisdiction in that church of antioch , and no necessity of appealing from them to the iurisdiction of others . for ●ith the synods are only to command the churches to do their duty , and to remit the censure of offenders to the churches themselves to whom the offenders belong , it plainly appeareth thereby where the supremacie of iurisdiction doth lye . the other place is in his page 307. where we have these words , viz. the power of jurisdiction ordinary intensive and quo ad essentiam ecclesiae ministerialis , according to the intire essence of a ministeriall church , is as perfect and compleat in one single congregation as in a provinciall , as in a nationall . yea as in the catholike visible body whereof christ is the head . now if there be such perfect & compleat power of iurisdiction in a single congregation , i know not how there can be such necessity of appeales from them to the iurisdiction of others as he is pleading for , nor how that supreame and independant power in congregations can be denyed , which here he disputeth against . for let this compleat and perfect power of iurisdiction be acknowledged as due to such churches , and appeales from them to other iurisdictions will be of small necessity or use . i know indeed this reverend author sayeth in the page last mentioned , and within a few lines of the words which i have here alledged , that a congregation is so a part of the presbytery that it hath not a whole intire compleat intensive power over its own members to excommunicate them — . and therefore the consociated churches must have a power over the members of a congregation . which words i confesse seeme not well to agree with the former , because in the one intire compleat intensive power is denyed to a congregation , and in the other the power of iurisdiction , ordinary intensive , is said to be as compleat and perfect in the congregation as in the great churches . but it is not the latter words but the former which i do stand upon ; and by them ( as i conceive ) the supremacie of congregations is established , and the necessity of appeales from them to other iurisdictions is cleerely takes away . for if the power of iurisdiction be as intire perfect and compleat in the congregation as in the greater churches , as our brother expresly affirmes it to be , i know not the reason why there must be appeales from the iurisdiction of the congregation unto the iurisdiction of those other churches . if the power spoken of were more imperfect and incompleat in the congregation , then it is in the other churches , then there might be more reason or ●ayrer pretence for those appeales : but sith our author confesseth it is no more intire compleat and perfect in these then in the congregation , but as compleat and perfect in the congregation as it is in the other , i am yet to seeke of a sufficient ground for the necessity of appeales from the iurisdiction in a congregation . for is it reasonable to appeale from one iudicatory to another , and yet the power of iurisdiction be as intire compleat and perfect in the former from which the appeale is made , as in the latter to which the cause is brought by such appeale ? it seemes by such appeales we are not like to be much helper , nor much to mend the matter above what it was before , and therefore the usefulnesse and necessity thereof is still uncl●●●● . i thinke the brethren erre in this to teach that antioch had power to determine the controversie , act. 15. when the churches of syria and cicilia , to their knowledge were troubled with the like question as verse 24. may cleere , — i doubt much if they had power to determine a question that so much concerned all the churches . answ . it is not cleere from verse 24. nor from any part of the chapter as farre as i can find , that antioch did know that other churches were troubled with this question ; and if they had known it , i see nothing therein but they might notwithstanding lawfully end the matter so farre as concerned themselves . for when this question was started amongst them by such as came from judea and taught this corrupt doctrine at antioch , the text is very cleere verse 2 , that they had much disputation amongst themselves to have ended the matter , afore there was any speech of sending to ierusalem : which disputation is an argument that they had right to have ended it , if ability had no● been wanting . and as for our brothers reason for the contrary taken from their knowledge that the other churches of syria and cicilia were troubled with the like question , there is not one word in the verse alledged to shew that antioch had knowledge of any such matter , nor is syria and cicilia once mentioned therein : and though they be mentioned verse 23. yet neither doth this verse declare that antioch had any knowledge that this question had ever troubled those other churches . say it be true that indeed they had been troubled therewith , and that the epistle from the synod doth intimate no lesse , this may prove that when the epistle came to be read at antioch , then antioch by this meanes might come to the knowledge thereof ; but all this doth not prove that antioch knew so much afore . and therefore they might endeavour to end the matter amongst themselves , as not knowing for any thing our author hath yet brought to the contrary , that any other churches besides themselves were troubled therewith . but suppose they had known so much , i see nothing in this to hinder but antioch might lawfully cleere up the truth in the question , and censure such of their church as should obstinately hold and teach that false doctrine , notwithstanding their knowledge that others had been troubled with the like doctrine and teachers . suppose a christian family be troubled with lying children , or servants , or such as are disobedient and undutifull in one kind or in another ; suppose they also knew that their neighbour families are troubled with the like , shall this knowledge of theirs hinder the parents or masters in such a family from censuring or correcting these that are under their government , according to their demerits ? if not , why shall antioch be hindered from censuring offending members of their church , only upon this ground because to their knowledge other churches are troubled with the like offenders ? a city or corporation is troubled with drunkards , with theeves , or other vicious and lewd persons , and knoweth that other cities or corporations are troubled with the like : a nationall church , as scotland for example , is troubled with obtruders of ceremonies , service booke , episcopacie or other corruptions , and knoweth that england or other churches are troubled with the like , shall scotland now be hindered from removing these corruptions , and the obtruders of them from amongst themselves , only upon this ground , because england to their knowledge is troubled with the like ? or shall the corporation ●ee hindered from punishing theeves and such other malefactors , only for this reason , because to their knowledge other corporations are troubled with the like lewd persons ? i suppose it is easie to see the insufficiency and invalidity of such consequences ? and therefore if antioch did know that other churches were troubled with the like offenders , as themselves were troubled withall , this needs not to hinder but they may determine questions that arise amongst themselves , and may censure such of their members as shall trouble the church or brethren therewith , and obstinately persist in so doing . this being considered withall , that in thus doing they do not go beyond their line , nor meddle with matters any farther but as they are within their compasse . for when divers churches are troubled with the like corruptions in doctrine or practise , and some one of those churches by using the key of doctrine or discipline or both , doth endeavour the removall of these corruptions , they do not hereby attempt and endeavour to remove them out of other churches ( which might be an appearance of stretching their line beyond their compasse ) but out of their own church , and only so farre as concernes themselves , and in so doing no man can justly say they meddle further then their power doth reach . but he gives another reason why antioch had not right to determine the question , and this is taken from the strong party that was in antioch against the truth , which was such as that they opposed paul and barnabas : concerning which he saith , that when the greatest part of a church as antioch is against the truth , as is cleere , act. 15. 2. he beleeveth in that they loose their jus , their right to determine eatenus in so farre ; for christ hath given no ecclesiasticall right and power to determine against the truth , but onely for truth ; and therefore in this , appeales must be necessary . answ . how is it cleere that the greatst part of the church at antioch was against the truth ? the text doth not say so much , but only this , that certain men which came from iudea , taught the brethren and said except ye be circumcised ye cannot be saved , and that paul and barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them about the matter , and that in the issue they determined that paul and barnabas and certaine others should go up to ierusalem about the question : thus much the scripture witnesseth , act. 15. 1 , 2. but whether they that held that corrupt doctrine at antioch were the major or the minor part of the church , the text doth not expresse , except we shall say that where a false doctrine is taught by some , and greatly opposed and disputed against by others , there it must needs bee that the greatest part are tainted with that false doctrine , which wee thinke is no good consequence . and therefore whereas our author saith , the greatest part of this church was against the truth , and that so much is cleere from verse 2. i answer , first that i do not perceive this cleerenesse , neither from verse 2 , nor from any other place of the chapter . nextly , suppose this were cleere , this may argue that they wanted ability and light to end the matter , but must it needs argue that they wanted right though they had been able ? or shall we say that they who want ability to doe things as they should be done , do therefore want right to ●●al● in them at all ? i conceive it will not follow , and the reason is because this right in churches is naturall , or connaturall to every church , and this want of ability is only accidentall , and therefore this latter cannot totally hinder the former . that light of government is naturall or connaturall to every church , our brother own words do testifie page 341. where he saith this , viz. supposing that christ have a visible church it is morall that she have power of government also , in so farre as she is a church ; yea , power of government upon this supposition is naturall or rather connaturall . and in page 307 , he saith as was alledged before , that the power of iurisdiction ordinary intensive — . is as perfect and compleat in one single congregation as in a provinciall , or in a nationall ; yea , as in the catholike visible body whereof christ is the head . and in page 383. he saith , that to a congregation christ hath given by an immediate flux from himselfe a politicall church power intrinsci●ally in it , derived from none but immediately from iesus christ : and the like he saith of a presbyteriall church . now whether antioch was a congregationall church as we hold , or a presbyteriall as is holden by this our brother , yet it is cleere by those words of his here alledged , that being essentially a church ; it had a politicall church power intrinscically within it selfe , yet a perfect and compleat power of iurisdiction , yea and such a power as was naturall or connaturall unto her , as she was a church . but now the light of knowledge whereby they should be enabled well to use this power , did not adde any power unto them which they had not before , not did the want of it , being but accidentall , deprive them of that power , which was intrinscicall , essentiall and connaturall unto them as they were a church of christ . onely this want did hinder their ability to expresse their power well , but their right as being a thing connaturall did still remaine . our brother hath a saying or two about the civill power , which by proportion may well illustrate this that i am speaking o●●bo it the church-power . in one place he saith thus , there is a two-fold power in a king , one in a king as a king , and this is a like in all , and ordinary regall , coactive : whether the king be an heathen , a turke , or a sound believing christian : there is another power in a king as such a king , either as a propheticall king as david and solomon or as a christian believing king. and of this latter he saith , that it is not a new regall power , but potestas execuliba , a power or gracious ability to execute the kingly power , which he had before as a king ; page 387. &c. 388. ●ow why may it not be said in like sort , there is in a church two-fold power , one in a church as it is a church , and this is a like in all true churches of christ , whether the church in this or that particular question have light to discerne , and hold the truth , or otherwise : another in a church , as it is sound believing church , holding the truth in such or such question ; and this is but only a gracious ability to exercise the power which they had before , not adding to them any new power at all ? againe , in his page 393. he hath these words . though the king were not a christian magistrate , yet hath he a kingly power to command men as christians , and it is by accident that he cannot in that state command christian duties , and service to christ ; because he will not , and cannot command those dutyes remaining ignorant of christ ; even as a king ignorant of necessary civill dutyes cannot command them , not because he wanteth kingly power to command these civill things , for undeniably he is a iudge in civill things , but because he hath not knowledge of them . and may we not say in like sort , though a church want the knowledge of the truth , in some particular question , yet they have a church power to determine such questions , & to command obedience therein , and it is by accident they cannot in that state determine rightly , because they will not , being ignorant of the truth therein , not because they want church-power to determine such matters , but because they have not the knowledge of them . againe a little after in the same p. he tels us , that christianity addeth no new fatherly power to a father over his children , nor giveth a new husband right to the husband , once an heathen over his wife ; for an heathen father is as essentially a father over his children as a christian father , and an heathen husband an heathen master &c. are all as essentially husband , masters , &c. as are the christian husbands , masters , &c. and may we not as well say , soundnesse of knowledge in such or such a particular question addeth no new church power to a christian church over their own members , nor giveth a new church right over them which they had not before ; for a church that wanteth such knowledge is as essentially a church , invested with church power over her members as is another church ? for ought i perceive the cases are alike ; and if soundnesse of knowledge do not give to a church their church-right in this or that question , how can want of that knowledge deprive them of that right ? sure one would thinke the whole substance of christianity might do as much for the adding of kingly right , fatherly right , husband right , &c. as soundnesse of knowledge in some one particular question , for the adding of church right ; & that the want of all christianity should be as available for taking away the kingly right , the fatherly right , &c. as the want of knowledge in one particular point for the taking away of church-right ; and sith we have our brothers own testimony cleer and full for the one , it seems to me the cases are so parallel and proportionable , that the other is unavoidable : i meane thus , sith in the one case the whole substance of christianity doth not give power , nor the want thereof take away the same by our brothers own teaching , i know not how in the other case soundnesse of knowledge in one particular question should give power or right , & want of such knowledge take away the same . and so for antioch in particular , if it were as our brother supposeth that the greater part of them did hold against the truth in that question about circumcision , i see not how this could deprive them of their church right which they had before . as for our brothers reason that christ hath given no ecclesiasticall right and power to determine against the truth , but onely for the truth , this saying i confesse is very true , but doth not suffice for the purpose for which hee brings it , viz. to prove that antioch being ignorant of the truth in that question about circumcision , or holding against the truth therein did thereby lose their church right to determine . for if this reason be good , then a man may conclude against that power in heathen kings , parents , and husbands , to governe their subjects , children and wives ; which our brother , as we heard afore , hath granted and taught : for suppose that antioch were ignorant of the truth in that particular is it not cleere that the kings , parents , and husbands mentioned are ignorant of the truth in many more matters ? and it antioch do hereupon loose their right , because christ hath given no power to determine against the truth but for the truth , how will it be avoided but by the same reason , ●he kings and the others mentioned must likewise lose their right to governe their own subjects and families ? for the lord gives no right , i hope , to pagans against the truth , no more then he doth unto churches . and therfore if the reason be valid and strong in the one case , and for the purpose , for which our brother brings it , it seemes to be as strong in the other case also , which shall be contrary to what our brother himselfe doth teach . in a word ▪ churches and antioch in particular have right to determine questions , and they ought to determine only according to the truth : they have formally a right to determine , and when their determinations are according to truth , then they will ●ind vi mat●●i● which else they will not . they have right to determine in fore humano , and if their determinations be for matter agreeable to truth , they will be ratifyed in foro div●●o , but not else . now our brothers arguing doth seeme to confound these two ; and because of the latter which is freely granted , he would conclude against the former , which we thinke is not good reasoning ; but on the contrary do still thinke , that though churches ought to give out no determinations but such as are agreeable to truth , and that otherwise their determinations , in respect of the matter of them will not bind before god , yet for all this they may have right formally and in foro humano to judge , and to determine of such things . moreover , if this were granted for true , that antioch when they are against the truth do lose their right to determine controversies , yet we are not hereby much neerer to an issue , unlesse it be determined withall who must be judge whether they be against the truth or no , and the reason is because if they be not against the truth but for it , then i hope , it will be granted that they doo not lose their right at all . the question therefore still remaines , who hath this ministeriall power to iudge whether this or that church , antioch or any other be against the truth or for it ; and unlesse this be cleered we are but where we were before . but to draw towards an end of this passage about the church of antioch : whether they had right to determine controversies when ability failed , or whether they did when lose that right , i will here transcribe a few words of our brother as i find them in his second , 331. page . wherein he either cleerely yeeldeth the cause , and saith the same that we do or i am much mistaken . the words are these , there is a difference between ability to judge , and right or power to judge . a presbyteriall church , ( and he disputeth in six pages together to prove antioch such a one , page 470. 471. &c. sequ . ) may have right , jus , and ecclesiastic●ll law to judge of a point , to the judging whereof they want ability : therefore de facto , it belongeth to an higher synod where more learned men are , though de jure the presbytery may judge it . these words i wish to be well considered . for whereas in the place we have been speaking of , he saith antioch , the greater part of them being against the truth , did lose their jus , their right to determine , for which as wee have heard , he gives this reason , because christ hath given no right and power to determine against the truth but for it , yet now wee see he grants distinction between ability and right , and saith , a presbyteriall church may still retaine this latter of their right , even then , when they want the other of ability . which two sayings whether they do perfectly agree , and whether in the latter of them he do not plainly come up to us , against whom he hath been disputing in the former , i leaue it to the wise in heart , and especially to himselfe to consider . for , for my part i must confesse that these two sayings , a presbyteriall church as antioch may have right , jus to judge a point , to the judging whereof they may want ability ; and , antioch a presbyteriall church wanting ability did thereby lose their right , or jus to determine the point , these two i say , are such sayings as are not easie for me to reconcile . lastly , if it be said our brother doth not deny unto antioch , or a church in error all power simply to determine , but only to determine tali mode , that is , to determine against the truth ; for his words are , they lose their jus their right eatenus , in so far . i answer , he hath such a word indeed , as eatenus , in so farre : but if any shall say he meant no more in this dispute , but only that such a church hath no right to determine against the truth , i conceive that he that shall so say , shall therein impute some fault unto our brother , even the fault of wresting mr. tompsons tenent and mine , and suggesting against us unto his reader , as if we had held such a thing as we never wrote nor thought . for it is plain , that our brother in his pag. 424. is disputing against us ; for he saith , that we teach the church of antioch had jus , power to judge and determine the controversie , but because of the difficulty had not light to judge thereof , and sets down master tompsons name and mine as the men that so teach , in answer , page 42. and a few lines after he saith , i thinke the brethren erre in this , to teach , that antioch had power to determine the controversie , act. 15. and then hee gives two reasons for the contrary . so that it is manifest that he intends this dispute against us . now what have we said in this matter ? have we delivered any such thing , that antioch had right to determine against the truth ? let the answer be viewed in the place which he alledgeth , viz. page 42. and i am sure no such grosse tenent will be there found , no nor any where else in our writing . that which we have said , is this , that antioch had right to have determined the matter if ability had served thereto : but for right to determine against the truth , we never spake one word that soundeth that way . our brother therefore intending this dispute against us , and plainly expressing so much , and our tenent being no other then as i have said , it must therefore needs follow that his intendment is , that antioch had no right to determine that matter . but for right to determine against the truth , he cannot confute such a tenent as ours , we never having delivered any such thing , but he must withall be culpable of manifest mistaking and mis-reporting of us to the world ; and we are , and must be slow to believe that a man of such worth would willingly do us such wrong . it remains therefore , that right to determine and not right to determine against the truth , is the thing which he oppos●t● as ours , and therefore it is that in this sence and meaning i have here applyed my answer . the 〈…〉 thus much ; that antioch had right to determine against the 〈…〉 that may soone be con●uted , but the tenent is none of ours : that 〈…〉 to determine , is indeed our tenent , and whether this be con●uted 〈…〉 , let the wise and iudicious consider . chap. ix . whether the congregationall way or the presbyteriall doe make the gospell more difficultive then the law. of excommunication by a church that hath only three elders , and of doing things sudainly . in the latter end of his page 424 meaning mr t●mpson and me , and alledging page 17 , 18. of the answer . he writes that we say our opposites do much judaize in that they multiply appeales upon appeales , from a congregation to a classis , then to a synod , then to a nationall assembly , then to an oec●●●●nicke councell ; and this way while the world endureth causes are never determined , and synods cannot alwayes be had ; even as in ierusalem the supreame iudicature was farre remote from all proselites , as from the eunuch of ethiopia , act. 8. and from the remote●● parts of the holy land : but god hath provided better for us in the new testament , where every congregation which is at hand may decide the controversie : and then , page 425. he subjoyneth his answer . answ . though i deny not but some of the things here alledged are written by us in the pa●●● nam●d , yet that they are written for the purpose which our brother expresseth , viz. to shew that our brethren of the opposite judgement do much iudaize , that i do utterly deny . for the places being viewed will plainly witnesse that wee bring the things alledged for another end , viz. to shew whether the way that is called independencie , do make the people ( as some have thought of it ) more defective and improvident then their law. for this being objected against that way , wee in answer thereto do shew by sundry particulars , that it is not that way that is justly culpable in this respect , but the way of our brethren of the other iudgement ; one way on the one side making the state of christians in these dayes in some things equall to the iewes , and in other things more excellent ; and on the other side the way of our brethren making our condition in many things more defective then was the condition of the iewes . so that ( not iudayzing but ) making our condition more defective then the iewes , is the thing which we here note in the doctrine of our brethren . nor do i see how our brother in his answer doth free their doctrine and way from being justly culpable in this respect . if we had intended the thing which he reporteth , we would never have used such a reason as he truly report● us to use , viz. that by appeales upon appeales causes according to our brethrens way may be so protracted as never to be determined nor ended . for this reason hath neither strength nor colour of strength for such a purpose , as he saith we bring it for , inasmuch as it is well known , that the iewes had a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of causes among them . and therefore to say that our brethren do iudaize , and then to give that for a reason which doth shew that the iewes and they are very unlike , the iewes having a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of cruses , and they having none , were to shew our selves very irrationall or worse : end why our brother should put such a thing upon us , we being no wayes guilty thereof , we do not know . but we desire that our reason may be applyed to our own conclusion , to which we did and do apply it , and not to this other expressed by our brother , which indeed is none of ours , and then we are content that rationall and judicious readers may judge whether or no there be any sufficient weight therein . which that they may more readily do , i have here recollected the same into this short summe , that they may briefly behold it with one view , viz if the iewes had a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of causes , and the congregationall way hath the like : if the iewes had a standing iudicatory alwayes in readinesse for the hearing of causes , and the congregationall way hath the like : and if the supreame iudicatory among the iewes was very farre remote from many of them , and in the congregationall way be more convenient and neere at hand , then the congregationall way is in some things equall to the iewes and in other things more excellent . but the first is true in all the particulars , and therefore the second is true also . againe , if the iewes had a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of causes , and the way of our brethren hath not : if the iewes had a standing iudicatory alwayes in readinesse for the hearing of causes and the way of our brethren hath not : and if the supreame iudicatory among the iewes was very remote from many of them , and synods among our brethren are the same , then the way of our brethren is in some things as defective as the iewes , and in other things more defective then theirs . but the first is true in all the particulars of it , and therefore the second is true also . both the assumptions in all the branches thereof , i conceive are cleerely proved in the answer in the pages which our brother doth alledge , and whether the consequence be good let the wise judge . having thus reduced our argumentation to its own proper and genuine shape , let us now consider of mr. rutherfords answer thereto . first , saith he , the speedinesse of ending controversies in a congregation is badly comprised with the suddainnesse and temerity of delivering men to satan upon the decision of three elders , without so much as asking advise of any classes of elders , and with deciding questions deepe and grave which concerneth many churches , which is a putting of a private sickle in a common and publicke harvest . answ . if advise from other churches may be had , we never spake word for doing weighty matters without the same , but in such cases it is both our practise and advise to make use thereof , and therefore this delivering men to satan in way of temerity or rashnesse toucheth not us whose opinion and practise is other wise . as for suddainnesse , i conceive if the same be sometimes accompanyed with temerity and rashnesse , and so worthy to be blamed , yet not alwayes : for in the reformation of the house of god in the dayes of hezekiah , it is said , that the thing was done suddainly . 2 chron. 29. 36. where suddainnesse doth not signifie any sinfull temerity or r●shnesle . but contrarily doth testifie gods great goodnesle that had so prepared the people to so good a worke : for this cause this suddainnesse was to hezekiah , and gods people an occasion and ground of great joy and gladnesse , which temerity could not have been . and therefore suddainnesse and temerity must not alwayes be confounded and coupled together , as if they were the same . though hasty delivering of men to satan without due consideration be not good , yet overlong delay of due proceeding against delinquents is bad also , for the holy ghost tels us because sentence against an evill worke is not executed speedily , therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evill , eccl. 8. 11. for which cause execute judgement in the morning , that is to say speedily is sometimes expresly required , jer. 21. 12. which being spoken of justice to be executed by civill authority doth hold by proportion and like reason in ecclesiasticall censures , for as much as speedinesle is a duty , and delayes are daangerous in the one case as well as in the other . whereas our author thinkes much that excommunication should proceed upon the decision of three elders , as we know nothing but a congregation may have more elders then the three , if god provide them fit men and the numerousnesse of the congregation so require , in which case our author saith nothing to the contrary , but they may have power to excommunicate , so if they have but three , we know nothing in this , but they may have power to excommunicate notwithstanding , since himselfe teacheth , due right . page 61. that the iewes had their congregationall churches as we have , and had their meeting in their synagogues , not only for doctrine , but also for discipline and excommunication ; which if it be so , it seemes there might be excommunication by as small a number as three , unlesse it could appeare that in every synagogue the elders and rulers in it were a greater number then is here mentioned , which is more then i do remember to be expressed in scripture . yea and further he tels us , that the inferiour iudicatures in israel had power of life and death , page 315. now the iudges in these inferiour iudicatures though they must never be under that number of three , yet they did not alwayes exceed the same , for ought that doth appeare . and if three iudges had power of life and death , why may not a congregation with three elders have power of excommunication ? moreover , in his page 454. he gives us these words for a proposition , that it floweth connaturally from a church to which agreeth the essence of church to exercise jurisdiction over all its own members ; to which those words do also agree , page 287. viz. the power and right to discipline is a propriety essentiall to a church and is not removed from it till god remove the candlesticke , and the church cease to be a visible church : and in page 302. hee affords us these words for an assumption , that a congregation is a church , wanting nothing of the being and essence of a church : and hence the conclusion is obvious , that a congregation may exercise iurisdiction over all it own members : and in as much as a congregation in which are but three elders , is a congregation , it followeth that a congregation in which are but three elders may exercise such iurisdiction . this conclusion our author cannot deny in as much as it necessarily and directly followeth from premises which are both his own . yea in his page 302. h● saith , that this is a principle of church policie , that every politicke body of christ hath power of church government within it selfe . either therefore a congregation with only three elders is no politicke body of christ , or else it must have power of church government within it selfe . besides , if the power of iurisdiction ordinary intensive be according to the entire essence of a ministeriall church be as compleat and perfect in one single congregation , as in a provinciall , nationall , or catholike church as our author saith it is p. 307. it is then a marvell why such a congregation having onely three elders , may not have power to excommunicate . lastly , his words are expresse , page 338. where there are not many churches consociated , then ordination and excommunication may be done by one single congregation . if therefore a congregation have not above three elders , yet being not consociated with other churches , it may lawfully excommunicate , by his own grant . for deciding questions that concerne many churches , if they decide them no further but onely as they concerne themselves , this is no putting a private sickle in a common and publike harvest , but a medling with matters onely so farre as they doe concerne themselves . secondly , he saith , all appeales without warrant from christs will we condemne , as the abuse of appeales to a court which is known shall never be , page 425. answ . if appeales without warrant from christ will be condemned , why are wee not told what appeales they are , that have the warrant of christs will , and what appeales have not ? for such a generall word a● this , of the warrant of christs will , without some further and more particular explication doth leave the matter as darke as it was before . if the meaning be , that only such appeales are unwarrantable as are made to a court which is known shall never be , and that all others are warrantable , then it will follow that appeales to generall councels and all other courts , except only from a generall councell are warrantable , for who doth certainely know that a generall councell will never be ? and so by this meanes the classes , 〈◊〉 synod , and the nationall church are all deprived of supremacie , and independencie of iurisdiction as well as the congregacion . thirdly , he saith , antiochs appeale to a synod 200 miles distant as our brethren say , was no judaizing but that which paul and the apostles were guilty of as well as we . answ . whether antioch and jerusalem were 200 miles distant or no as we have never affirmed so much , so i will not stand now to inquire . but this i stand upon , that no scripture doth witnesse that antioch did appeale to jerusalem in the point of iurisdiction , about which our question doth lye , if they did appeale to them for a doctrinall decision or determination of the question , that nothing hindereth our cause who do not deny such a doctrinall power in synods . but their power of iurisdiction is the thing that should be proved . lastly , if this example of antioch doe prove that there may bee and ought to bee appeales from congregations to synods , though those synods be 200 miles distant , then that which wee said in the answer is here confessed to be true : viz. that according to our brethrens iudgement the state of the church in point of discipline is as defective and burdensome in the time of the gospell , as it was in the dayes of the old testament . for as then the supreame iudicatory at jerusalem was many miles distant from such as dwelt in the furthest parts of the holy land , and specially from the proselites that dwelt in other countries , so here our author seemes to yeeld that in these dayes of the new testament there must or may be appeales to synods , though they be 200 miles distant . i hope then if others blame our way for making the gospell as defective and improvident as the law , or more defective then it , yet this our brother will not do so , but on the contrary will acknowledge for us and with us , that the way which himselfe pleads for , is more justly culpable in this respect . fourthly , he saith , matters concerning many churches must be handled by many . answ . this may be granted in a safe sence without any prejudice at all unto our cause , for we are well content that so farre as they concerne many they may be handled by many , so that each congregation may have liberty to deale in them so farre as they concerne themselves . and thus you have all which mr. rutherford hath brought against that passage of ours wherein we say it is not our way but theirs , that doth make the gospell more defective then the law , instead whereof he is pleased to make us say that they doe iudaize ; but for eleering their way from that which wee object against the same , or for convincing out way to be guilty thereof as by some hath been objected , which is the thing in question in the place by him alledged , for ought i perceive there is nothing in the foure particulars of his answer , that doth any thing availe to either of these : for if a rash delivering of men to satan have more evill in it then speedy ending of controversies hath good ▪ if appeales without warrant from christs will , be unlawfull : if antioch did appeale to a synod 200 miles distant , and if matters concerning many churches must be ended by many , which foure particulars are the whole substance of his answer , what is there in all this ( for i would gladly apply his answers to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the thing in question , what is there i say in all this that 〈◊〉 convince our way to be more defective then the way under the old testament ? or that doth cleere the way of our brethren from being truly culpable thereof ▪ let all the evill that can be found in rash delivering men to satan be extended to the utmost , and let the rest of the foure particulars be granted , doth all this sufficiently cleere it that the way which we plead for is more defective , or the way of our brethren more perfect and excellent , then the way that was used under the law ? if they do not amount to the cleering of this , they do not come up to cleere the thing in question , which for ought i perceive doth still remaine as it was notwithstanding all that our brother here brings . chap. x. whether the necessity of discipline be greater then of sacraments : and whether a congregation that hath neighbours may not exercise intirenesse of iurisdiction as well as one that hath none : and whether a man may take on him the whole ministery having no outward calling thereto ; and may not as well take on him one act of baptizing or ministring the lords supper . the next place where i find our reverend brother dealing with the answer , is in page 453 , 454. where disputing that there was a presbyteriall church at ierusalem , he saith it is objected by us ( alledging the answer , page 6. ) that if a church in an iland by divine institution and so the first congregation as ierusalem which did meete in solomons porch had once an intire power of iurisdiction , though in an extraordinary case , the case is ordinary , as in the dominion of wales there is scarce a congregation to be found within 20 , or 30 miles . 2. suppose the case were extraordinary and rare , may they violate the ordinary rules of christ ? for so some may thinke and say that though according to ordinary rules , baptisme and the lords supper must be dispensed only by men and by ministers , yet in the want of these the one may be dispensed by a woman or mid-wife , and both of them by such as are no ministers . and then hee subjoyneth his answer . answ . our authors scope and intention being to prove a presbyteriall church at ierusalem , i cannot apprehend a good reason , why now he should fall upon the place of the answer alledged , in as much at the place makes not any mention of ierusalem at all , nor of any presbyteriall church there , either one way or other . but it seemes he was willing to go something out of his way that so he might have a saying to the answer , yet if it must needs be so , i could have desired that the words of the answer might have been kept , without making alteration by leaving some things out , and putting others in of his own accord , and by mentioning others with another face then was ever intended by us . for though he is pleased to mention a church in an iland and the first founded congregation at ierusalem , in his objection which he● brings in under mr. tompsons name and mine , yet he that shall peruse the place will find that neither of these are once mentioned by us at all , and why then they should be brought in as ours i do not know . and for the former part of our answer , wherein we show that for a christian congregation to want neighbour congregations to whom they may with conveniency have recourse , and not so unusuall as some may imagine , we do not only alledge for that end the dominion of wales as our brother doth report , but also the remoter parts of the north , and specially the state of things in times and places of generall persecution and generall prophanenesse , and new plantations in heathen countries ; all which our brother doth omit , as if wee had not mentioned any of them . and whereas we mention the scarcity of congregations in the remoter parts of wales and of the north , as intimated by our reverend brother mr. herle in that learned and loving discourse of his , whereto we doe apply our answer , mr. rutherford concealeth that we do mention this , as the apprehension or intimation of another , and instead thereof makes bold to set it downe under our name , as if we had delivered it as our own . all which alterations , omissions and additions are such as wee for our parts would not willingly have made the like in any worke of his nor of any other man. for let such liberty as this be taken in repeating what men do speake or write , and misapprehension of their true ●ntent and meaning must needs be bred hereby in the minds of all those that shall read or heare such reports and beleeve the same . neverthelesse , let us consider what our brother doth returne in his answer . we thinke saith he , a ministery and discipline more necessary to a congregation in a remote iland , or to the church of ierusalem before they increase to such a number as cannot meet for their numerous multitude in one congregation , then the sacraments when there be no ministers to dispense them . answ . would not one thinke by th●se words , and the other laid down in the objection , that we had spoken something of a church in an iland , and of the church in jerusalem ? else why should these be objected , and answered as ours ? but th truth is we have not spoken one word either of the one or the other of these particulars : which will plainly appeare to him that shall view the place . something wee have spoken in the generall of a congregation that wants neighbours , which we did being thereunto led by our reverend brother mr. herle , but of a church in an iland , and of the church at ierusalem in particular , of which mr. rutherford heere speaks , of these we have said nothing . second , the former part of our answer , that for a congregation to want neighbours is not so unusuall as some may imagine , this mr. rutherford wholly passeth over in silence , only he propounds it in his objection in such sort as we have heard , and so leaves it , whereby it seemes he yeelds the thing . and thereupon it followes , that intirenesse of iurisdiction in a congregation must be yeelded frequently lawfull , it being frequently seene , that congregations want neighbours in which case their intirenesse of iurisdiction is not denyed . third , for the second part of our answer , we thus expresse our selves therein . viz. that we suppose it is good to take heed how farre we yeeld it lawfull in extraordinary cases to transgresse and violate ordinary rules , whereof wee render the reason , least some body doe thence inferre the lawfulnesse of ministring sacraments by non-ministers , in case ministers be wanting . this is that which we have said in this matter . if therefore mr. rutherford would take away what we have said herein , he must say it is not good nor needfull to take such heed , but men may yeeld it lawfull in such cases to transgresse and violate ordinary rules , and never need to take heed how farre they yeeld therein . this indeed were contradictory to what we have said , and if this be once cleered for truth , then i must confesse our saying is cleerely disproved . but the cleering of this we hope our brother will never attempt : sure yet he hath not done it , and so our saying yet remaines as it was . fourth , whereas he saith he thinkes a ministery and discipline more necessary in the cases he speaks of , then sacraments and there be no ministers , though this be not directly opposite to what we have said , yet because i would consider of every thing wherein he seemes to ayme at us , therefore i am willing to consider of this also . our reverend brother thinkes discipline in the cases mentioned more necessary then sacraments : and yet in his page 287 , 288. handling that question , whether discipline be a marke of the visible church , and laying down sundry distinctions about the same , hee gives us these severall propositions in termes : first , care to exercise discipline may be wanting in a true church . second , right discipline is not necessary to the essence of a visible church as a city may bee without wals , a garden without a hedge . third , the exercise of discipline may be wanting , and the church a true visible church . fourth , the church may retaine the essence and being of a visible church , and yet have no discipline in actuall use or little , in which place he cites and approves the judgement of parker , cartwright and others ; who make discipline necessary only to the wel-being of the church , as being not indifferent but commanded in the word and necessary in respect of its end . now if this be all the necessity that is in discipline , how is discipline more necessary then sacraments ? for may not as much bee said of them as here is said of discipline ? are not sacraments necessary to the well-being of the church , as being commanded in the word , as well as discipline is ? and serving for excellent ends , as well as discipline doth ? i suppose it will n●● be denyed , and therefore the necessity of discipline above sacraments doth not yet appeare . especially if that be considered withall which our brother teacheth else-where . viz. in his second p. 211. & sequ . where he tels us , that sacraments are not only declarative signes , but also reall exhibitive seales of grace , having a causality in them to make a thing that was not , and so excelling all civill seales which do adde no new lands to the owner of the charter sealed therewith . now if sacraments be thus excellent and effectuall , how is it that in the place wee have in hand , discipline is made more necessary then they ? for a greater elogie then here hee gives to sacraments , i suppose himselfe would not give unto discipline . yea in p. 302 he expresly affirmes , that preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments are essentiall notes of the visible church . but of discipline i conceive he will not say the same , sure it is in the page following distinguishing betwixt notes of the church which are necessary ad●sse , to the very being of a visible church , and such as are necessary only ad bene esse , to the well-being thereof , he expresly makes discipline a worke or note of this second sort , and as we heard ere-while , he in page 287 expresly affirmes it is not necessary to the essence of a church . and therefore it is some marvell why now 〈◊〉 makes discipline more necessary then sacraments . but he gives us two reasons of this greater necessity of discipline then of sacraments . first , that intire power of discipline in a congregation that wants neighbours is not extraordinary second , that there is no such morall necessity of sacraments , as there is of discipline , page 455. concerning the former his words are these , viz. that the church be in an iland it selfe alone may possibly be extraordinary , but that in such a case they have intire power of discipline whole and entire within themselves to excommunicate scandalous persons is not extraordinary . wherein first of all i observe a difference between him and our reverend brother mr. herle , who having granted that where there is no consociation or neighbour-hood of congregations , there a single congregation must not be denyed intirenesse of iurisdiction , doth presently adde that the case is extraordinary , and so fals not within the compasse of the question of the ordinary rule of church-government : independencie of churches , p. 2. plainly confessing that the case is extraordinary , whereas mr. rutherford here saith it is not . second , as he expresly differs from mr. herle , so it is considerable whether his words do well agree with themselves . for saith he , that the church be in an iland it selfe alone may be extraordinary , but that in such case they have entire power of iurisdiction of discipline within themselves , to excommunicate scandalous persons , is not extraordinary . which saying needs good explication . for it seemes hard to conceive how the power and actions of any subject or efficient should be more usuall and ordinary then it s very being and subsistance : which yet must needs bee , if this stand good that the being of a church in an iland is extraordinary , and yet the power of such a church to excommunicate is usuall and ordinary third , if their power of discipline , yea intire power be in the case expressed or●●●ary , shall we then say that if the case ●e otherwise so that a church be not alone but have neighbours , entirenesse of power in such a case is extraordinary ? it seemes a● must ●ay 〈◊〉 , or else wee must say that intirenesse of power in both cases is ordinary . if this latter be said , it is as much as we desire : for then i hope it must not be a small 〈◊〉 ordinary matter , that must hinder a church that hath neighbours from exercising 〈…〉 ●●●●diction within themselves , no more then a church that lives alone , 〈…〉 power being ordinary in them both . for if it be so in them both , in the one as well as in the other , i know not why any small or ordinary matter should hinder the one church any more then the other from the use and exercise of such entire power . if we say that entirenesse of power in a church that hath neighbours is extraordinary , though in a church that is alone it be ordinary , besides that such a saying sounds harshly and seemes very improbable , we shall by this meanes make cases extraordinary to be very frequent & usuall , in as much as all men know it is very usuall for congregationall churches to have neighbours : and so if entirenesse of power in a church that hath neighbours be extraordinary , it will follow that extraorninary power is very usuall and frequent ; so that inconveniences on each side do seeme inevitably to follow against our brothers cause , upon this which here he affirmeth , that entirenesse of power in a church that is alone is not extraordinary . but let us here his reason in the subsequent words , why this entirenesse of power in a church that is alone is not extraordinary . for it floweth saith he , continually from a church , to which agreeth the essence of a church , to exercise iurisdiction over all its own members . and i suppose he must meane this of iurisdiction entire and compleat , for of this is the question , and a few lines afore , he expresly cals it entire power of discipline , whole and entire within themselves . now if this be true which here is said , as for my part i conceive no other of it , that it floweth connaturally from a church , to which agreeth the essence of a church to exercise entire iurisdiction over all its own members , then it will follow that a church that hath neighbours as well as a church that hath none must have this entirenesse of iurisdiction , sith the essence of a church doth agree to the one as well as to the other , to a church that hath neighbours as well as to a church that is alone . our author tels us page 302. that a congregation in an iland is a church properly so called , and hath the essentiall notes of a visible church agreeing to it , and wants nothing of the being and essence of a church . and if this be true of a church that is alone , shall we thinke it is not true of a church that hath neighbours ? doth the accession of neighbours to a congregation take away from such a congregation the essence of a church which it had before ? i conceive none will so say . and if every church to which agreeth the essence of a church may exercise entire iurisdiction over all its own members , as our brother doth acknowledge , it followeth unavoidably thereupon that all congregationall churches , such as have neighbours and such as have none may exercise such entirenesse of iurisdiction , sith the essence of a church doth agree unto them all . vnlesse he will deny the essence of a church to a congregation which hath neighbours , which hee freely yeeldeth to a congregation which is alone , he must grant entirenesse of iurisdiction unto them both , because he grants it to the one upon this reason , that the essence of a church doth agree thereunto , which reason if it agree to both , how can i● be avoided but entirenesse of iurisdiction must be in both ? and how can it be affirmed or imagined that a congregation having the essence of a church afore and have neighbours , should lose this essence of a church when neighbours are added to it ? a family having the essence of a family now it is alone , doth not lose this essence by meanes of other families added . nor doth a city that is such , as it is alone lose the essence of a city by the accesse of other cities : and the same might be said of a corporation , a province , a kingdome , or any other society whatsoever . and that it should be otherwise with a congregationall church , that it should lose the essence of a church as other neighbours churches do arise , doth seeme very strange and unreasonable . and let the essence of a church be still retayned by such a congregation , as i conceive it must , and then intirenesse of iurisdiction must not be denyed to such a congregation , sith it doth flow connaturally from every church to which the essence of a church doth agree . if there bee no more consociated with that church that is by accident , and an extraordinary exigence of gods providence . as a master of a family is to educate his children in the feare of god , but if god take all his children from him by death , he doth not transgresse the ordinary rule of educating his children in the feare of god , as he hath none . answ . if this comparison doe suit the present purpose and case in hand , then this master of a family is a congregation , and these his children are the members of other congregations : and so as a master of a family needs not to educate his children in gods feare , when they are all taken from him by death , so a congregation needs not to governe the members of other congregation as there are no other congregation extant , but it selfe is left alone in an iland . in which kind of arguing sundry things may be excepted against . as fir●● of all that there should be such power in a congregation as in a master of a family over his own children , which needs a good deale of proofe afore it may be yeelded , in as much as the power of the one is plainly and plentifully taught in the scripture , as eph. 4. 6. col. 3. deut. 6. 7. deut. 21. and many other places . but i desire one cleere place of scripture , in all the book of god either old testament or new , to shew the like power in a congregationall church , over the members of other churches . againe , when a master of a family hath all his children taken from him by death , he hath then no children of his own to governe , but wants a congregationall church & is left alone in an iland , the presbytery of that congregation is left alone , but have still the members of that congregation whom they may and ought to guide and governe in the feare of god , which is another particular wherein the comparison failes . but though the similitude as mr. rutherford hath laid it down , doth not confirme his purpose , yet i conceive it may be ▪ so framed and applyed as that it may well serve for the weekning thereof , thus ; a master of a family having ( when that family is alone ) entire power to governe his family in the feare of god , when other families do arise that become neighbours neere adjoyning , he is not by this meanes deprived of the power which he had before , but still retaines the same entire and compleate as formerly it was : even so the presbytery of a congregationall church having ( when that congregation is alone , ) entire power of iurisdiction over its own members , is not when neighbour congregation do arise , deprived by this meanes of the power which it had before , but still retaines the same entire as formerly it was . againe , though when god takes away a mans children by death , he is no longer bound to educate and governe those children in the feare of god , yet as long as his children live with him in his family , it is not the sitting down of other families neere by him that can take away this power from him , or discharge him of this duty : even so , though when members of a congregation be taken away by death or otherwise , the congregation or its presbytery doth no longer stand charged or bound with the oversight and government of such members yet as long as they live in the congregation , it is not the arising of other congregations neere to them that can free them from the power wherewith they were invested , nor from the duty wherewith they were formerly charged towards such members , thus the comparison runs even , and we see our brothers cause is not a little disadvantaged thereby . but as he hath laid it down , it doth so apparantly faile that i do not perceive how it can afford him any helpe at all . this argument supposeth that the congregation hath no power of excommunication at all , either compleat or incompleate , as the midwife hath no power to baptize , either compleate or incompleate . answ . suppose a congregation have an incompleate power when they have neighbours , how shall it appeare that when they are alone their power is now compleat ? or how will it be avoided but by the like reason , one elder alone may excommunicate in case there be no other elders to joyne with him ? for plain it is , that one elder when their is a full presbytery or classis hath an incompleate power , though not a compleat . and yet i hope this incompleat power in one elder when there are other elders joyned with him , will not warrant him to exercise a power compleat when he is alone , because such a power must be exercised by a church , with one elder alone cannot be . and if one elder having an incompleat power when he is joyned with others , may not exercise a compleat power when he is alone , how will the incompleat power of a congregation when they have neighbours ( suppose that in such case their power were indeed incompleate ) how will this i say warr●nt that congregation when they are alone to exercise a compleat power ? for ought i see , the compleat power of the congregation is no more warranted upon this ground , then the like power of one elder upon the same ground , the cases being alike in both . neither doth a congregation transgresse any rule of christ at all when it exerciseth entire power of censures within it self , whereas there be no consociated ●hurches to share with it in that power . answ . this i grant is very true ; and i desire it may not be recalled , but may still stand as here it is expresly given to us ; and then i desire to know what rule of christ is transgressed , if an other congregation , i meane a congregation that hath neighbours , do exercise the like power . for my part i know no such rule , nor any good reason but if that the one congregation may so practise , the other congregation may do the like , and that the grounds ( at least some of them ) which will warrant the one , will also suffice to warrant the other . neverthelesse when any rule of christ shal be produced that doth restraine a congregation that hath neighbours of this entire power , which is so freely and plainly granted to the congregation that is alone , i shall then grant that the former must have lesse liberty to exercise this power , then is here granted to the latter . in the meane time , that which here is yeelded to the one doth amongst other things induce me to thinke that the same ought to be granted to the other , and so that entirenesse of power is in them both . a congregation ( viz. which is alone ) is capable of entire jurisdiction because it is a church . answ . how will it then be avoided but a congregation which hath neighbours , or a congregation which was alone and now hath neighbours added to it , how will it be avoided i say , but such a congregation as this is also capable of entire iurisdiction ? for can it be denyed but such a congregation is a church , as well as the other ? sure if mr. rutherford his doctrine elsewhere delivered do stand good , this cannot be denyed at all . for in his page 301 he saith , that is a church , and hath the essence of a church , to which agree the essentiall notes of a visible church , and preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments saith he are essentiall notes of a visible church . which if it bee so , then a congregation that hath neighbours is a visible church , and hath the essence of a church , because preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments are cleerely found in such a congregation . and if such a congregation be a church , then by his own doctrine in this place which we have in hand , such a congregation is capable of entire iurisdiction . for thus i argue from his own words every congregation which is a church is capable of entire iurisdiction . but a congregation which hath neighbours is a church . therefore a congregation which hath neighbours is capable of entire iurisdiction . the conclusion is that which we stand for , and it makes directly against our brother , and yet i see not how he can avoyd it , because both the premises are his own . for the proposition is plaine from the words we have in hand , v●z . a congregation is capable of entire jurisdiction because it is a church . now if this be the reason why it is capable thereof , then looke to what congregation this reason doth agree , every such congregation must be so capable . for our author well knoweth that à quatenus ad omnia consequentia . and for the assumption , the same is confirmed by his words , page 302 , where he makes that to be a church , and to have the essence of a church , to which the preaching of the word , and administration of the sacraments do agree . and these agreeing to a congregation that hath neighbours , it followeth that a congregation that hath neighbours is a church . vnlesse hee will deny to a congregation that hath neighbours power of preaching the word and administring the sacraments ( which i am perswaded he will not deny at all ) it will unavoidably follow from his own ground that such a congregation is a visible church . and if such a congregation be a visible church , then by his own ground also , such a congregation must be capable of entire iurisdiction : which conclusion if it bee granted we desire no more , for it is the thing that we hold . a woman in no case is capable of administring baptisme or the lords supper , except she were extraordinarily and immediately inspired to bee a prophetesse , but for the exercise of entire power of jurisdiction by a congregation in a remote iland , i hope it hath no such need of immediate inspiration . answ . nor do wee thinke otherwise ; but ( that we may keepe to the points and bring up the dispute to the thing in questio ) if such a congregation having no such inspiration may notwithstanding lawfully exercise intire power of iurisdiction within themselves , and that upon this reason , because they now are alone , which if they had neighbours were not lawfull for them to do , then let it be well considered , whether by the like reason in the like extraordinary case , baptisme and the lords supper may not be administred the one of them by a woman , and both of them by such as are no ministers . for as in one case the plea , to make it lawfull is this , because such a congregation hath no neighbours , so in the other the plea is because the congregation hath no ministers , nor perhaps there are no men at hand . and if the one which at other times were unlawfull , yet in such an extraordinary exigence of gods providence may be lawfully done , though there be no immediate inspiration to warrant the same , why doth there need such immediate inspiration to warrant the other , the extraordinary exigence of gods providence being alike in both . i desire i may not be mistaken in this passage , for i doe not affirme ( nor ever did ) that the dispensation of discipline and of sacraments in the cases mentioned are both alike unlawfull , or else both alike lawfull . the answer will not witnesse that i have so affirmed , neither yet this present discourse t● much lesse do i hold that sacraments may be dispensed by women or by men that are not ministers . all that i have said in this matter is thus much , that it is good to take heed how farre we yeeld it lawfull in such extraordinary cases , as want of neighbours , to transgresse and violate ordinary rules , least some body do thence inferre that sacraments may be dispensed by women or men that are no ministers , in case that ministers or men be wanting . this i have said indeed , as being tender and afraid to open a dore too far for liberty of transgressing ordinary rules , and conceiving that keeping close to those rules is the safest way . if any man be more bold and dare open the dore further then i dare adventure to do , and thinke he can easily shut the same againe , to stop the inconveniencies and ill consequents which i feare may thence ensue . i shall leave him to his discretion , and the guidance of god therein , onely craving thus much for my selfe that no more may be imputed to me , nor reported of me in this or other matters , then indeed i have affirmed or expressed . concerning his second reason of the greater necessity of discipline then of sacraments , his words are these . there is no such morall necessity of sacraments as there is of the ministery of the word and consequently of the use of the keyes , where a scandalous person may infect the lords flock : for where vision ceaseth the people perish . but it is never said where baptisme ceaseth the people perish , pag. 455. answ . how shall we be sure that by vision , prov. 26. 18. is meant discipline ? yea discipline not in a large sense as comprehending generally all order and behaviour concerning a church and outward duties therein , but discipline strictly taken for administration of censures ( for of this is one question ) how i say shall wee be sure that by vision is meant this discipline ? the usuall expositers tremeli●● and junius , 〈…〉 , and others doe expound the same of the preaching and dispensing of the word , making no mention at all of discipline as meant thereby . and the 〈◊〉 branch of the verse , he ●hat keepeth the law is blessed , doth ●hew that by vision in the former branch is mean the law , or doctrine or word of god. and if the scripture do not s●y , where baptisme ceaseth the people perish , yet neither doth it say , where administrat●on of censures ceaseth the people perish ; and therefore no necessity of censures above sacraments can be concluded hence . vncalled ministers in case of necessity without ordination or calling from a presbytery may preach and take on them the holy ministery and exercise power of jurisdiction , because of the necessity of the soules of a congregation in a remote iland requireth so . answ if they may do these things without ordination ( as for my part i deny it not , so that the election or consent of the congregation be not wan●ing , for that i suppose might be a good part of an outward calling ) then i demand whether one minister alone may not thus do , i meane whether one alone may not in the case proposed take on him the holy ministery and preach the word as a minister . if many may do it , then i suppose there is no question but one may do it much rather . and if so , then i demand further whe●her such a single minister may not also administer the sacraments to such a congregation : i suppose it cannot be denyed , for if he lawfully take on him the ministery and preach as a minister , what should hinder , but he may also baptize , and minister the lords supper ? and if hee may thus doe , then i demand lastly , whether this single minister may also administer discipline and censures in that congregation . if he may , then either the power of those censures must be in himselfe alone , or in the congregation also , in himselfe alone it cannot be , because censures must bee dispensed by a church , and one man alone cannot bee a church , if it be in the congregation also , then here is a power of excommunication or other censures even in the people which is against our brothers judgement . if it be said that this single minister as long as he wan●s other ministers joyned with him may not administer censures or discipline , then it will follow that power of censures is not alwayes annexed to the ministery as an inseparable adjunct thereof , nor are censures to be preferred before sacraments as more necessary , as our brother would have it , for as much as here is a ministery and the administring of sacraments , the necessity of the soules of the congregation requiring so , and yet for all this not any power of censures at all . our brother therefore may make his choyce , whether hee will grant the power of the keyes of discipline to bee in the people , or whether he will say the necessity of the soules in a congregation doth require sacraments more then discipline ; for though these be both against himselfe , yet upon the ground which himselfe doth here lay , the one of the two is unavoidable . but i hope no necessity in any of the most extraordinary case requireth that a midwife may baptize , or that a private man remaining a private man may celebrate the lords supper to the church , without any calling from the church . answ . concerning the midwife i thinke the same that he doth . and concerning the private man , i also therein ●●curre that without calling from the church hee may not performe what here is spoken of . but here i would make this quare whether 〈◊〉 man that never was a minister may not as well in an extraordinary case performe 〈◊〉 act of administring of baptisme or the lords supper , without any calling from the 〈◊〉 bytery or the church unto whom the office of ministery , as take on him without any such calling the whole ministery , and so preach and exercise the power of iurisdiction as a minister for as for the one of these , our brother expresly grants a man m●y lawfully take it on him without any such calling , the necessity of the soules of a congregation in an iland requiring so ; and if this necessity will warrant the one which is the whole and so the greater , why will it not warrant the other which is but one act and so the lesser ? one would thinke one act of dispensing baptisme or the supper were a lesser matter then the whole ministery , and all the actions thereof . and marvell it is , that the necessity of the soules of a congregation should warrant this which is the greater , and yet the same necessity should not be sufficient warrant for the lesser , a mans calling being otherwise alike unto both , that is , having an outward calling to neither himself doth sometimes reason thus , if wee give to beleevers that are not in office one pastorall act , wee may with the like weight of reason give them all : peaceable plea , page 272. now if this reasoning be good from one act to all , why is no this as good , from all to any one or to some one ? and why may we not in like maner argue thus , if persons uncalled may without ordination or calling take on them the whole ministery , why may not persons uncalled without ordination or calling take on them to baptize or minister the supper ? not that i thinke such a practise to be lawfull , but only i intend to make quaere about the validity of our brothers kind of arguing . yea , it is elsewhere his arguing , that it persons not in office of ministery may execute censures and discipline , they may then administer the sacraments . for saith he , what hinders by this reason but they may also without ministers prea●h and administer the sacraments : peaceable plea , page 196. yea saith he , i s●e not but with a like warrant private men may administer the sacraments : vbi supra , page 196. this we see is his arguing elsewhere : and yet in the place we have in hand he grants that persons uncalled may in case of necessity without ordination or calling take on them the ministery in generall , and in particular may exerc●se the power of iurisdiction , and yet for all this he sayes , that no necessity will warrant a man to celebrate the lords supper without a calling from the church . which two sayings for ought i perceive do not agree . for in the one it is affirmed that if they may exercise discipline and censures , they may by the like reason administer sacraments : and the other saith they may exercise discipline and censures and yet may not administer sacraments ; and yet both the sayings are expressed by the same authors pen. chap. xi . whether the power of iurisdiction flowing immediately from the essence of a church doe not agree to a church that hath neighbours as well as to a church that hath none : and whether otherwise neighbouring churches bee not a losse . and whether pretence of male-administration be a sufficient reason for neighbouring churches to deprive a congregation of its power . the next place where i find mr. rutherford dealing with the answer , is in his page 455. where he brings in these words under mr. tompsons name and mine , viz. if the power of jurisdiction flow immediately and necessarily from the essence of a church , and a congregation be essentially a church , then this power agreeth to all churches whether consociated , or not consociated , and without respect of what neighbours they have , whether many or few , whether any or none . second , a congregation it selfe alone cannot have sole power of iurisdiction and then be deprived of it , when god sendeth neighbours , for then neighbouring churches which are given for help should be given for losse , the contrary whereof ames saith no. doe synods saith he , constitute a new forme of a chur●h . thus farre mr. rutherford who in his margent alledgeth mr. tompson and me , 16. pag. 4 , 5. answ . in one of these pages of the answer , viz. p. 5. there is nothing at all to be found that looks toward such a purpose as our brother hath in hand , and therefore this page should not have been here alledged . the words of dr. ames are more imperfectly cited by our brother , then they were alledged in the answer , for the answer alledgeth them thus out of medull . theol. lib. 1. chapter 3. sect 27. that the combination of churches into classes , and synods doth neither constitute a new forme of a church , nor ought by any meanes to take away or impayer that liberty and power which christ hath given to his churches , sith it serveth only for the directing and furthering of the same . wher●as our brother expresseth only those first words that synods do not constitute a new forme of a church , but all the rest wherein the chiefe strength of dr. ames his testimony doth lye , them he doth wholly omit and leave out . he also leaves out the assent which is given by mr. paget , to this testimony of dr. ames , which assent as it is expressed in his defence p. 107. in these words , this we do willingly grant , is also in the ●ame words alledged by the answer in p. 4. but this is wholly passed over by mr. rutherford in silence . now two such men as these being alledged in the answer , as plainly affirming that the combination of churches into classes and synods must neither tollere nor minuere , take away not impaire or diminish the liberty or power of churches , but only serve for the directing and furthering of the same , and the one of them being the chiefe patron of the power of classes and synods , it is some marvell to me that no word of answer is vouchsafed to them by mr. rutherford , but that their words are thus passed by with silence , and the name of one of them not so much as mentioned . how ever this is cleere , that he that gainsayes the answer in this passage , hath not only the answer , but also the reverend author here mentioned to be against him . but let us come to consider of mr. rutherford his answer which he subjoyneth in these words , viz. power of iurisdiction floweth from the essence of a congregation in an iland , ergo a totall and compleat power of iurisdiction floweth from the essence of a church or congregation consociated , it followeth no wayes . answ i desire the reason may be laid down according to our true meaning therein , and in its full strength ; and then the former part thereof must not only speak of power of iurisdiction flowing from the essence of a church that want neighbours , but of entire power , for thereof is the question ; and in the latter part the termes must no : be a church consociated but a church that hath neighbours ; now if entire power and iurisdiction do flow from the essence of a church , and therefore this essence of a church being found in a congregation that wants neighbours , this entirenesse of power mu●t thereupon be granted to such a congregation ; i then demand why the like entirenesse of power must not be granted as well to a congregation that hath neighbours , sith the essence of a church is found in this congregation , as well as in the other . for ought i see either the essence of a church must be denyed to a congregation that hath neighbours or else it will follow that entirenesse of power must be granted to such a congregation , risibility and power of reason flowing immediately and necessarily from the essence of a man , and power to defend it selfe and purge out excrements flowing in like sort from the essence of a humane body , and power to governe it self with family government flowing in like sort from the essence of a family ; therefore we must not grant these powers to be entire in such a man , such a body , or such a family as is alone , and deny the same to one that hath neighbours , but must grant them alike unto all , because this power flowes from their very essence , which is as truly found in such as have neighbours , as it is in those that are alone . and the like may be said in other cases . and why it should be otherwise in a congregationall church , that the power of the iurisdiction flowing from the essence of such a church should therefore be entire in such a congregation as is alone in an iland , and yet not entire in a congregation that hath neighbours , though this congregation hath the essence of a church as well as the other , why these congregations i say should thus greatly differ in their power , and yet be alike in their essence from whence their power doth flow , for my part i yet do not understand the reason . nor doth that satisfy which mr. rutherford here alledgeth , that one pastor in a congregation hath as a pastor power to rebuke sin and to administer the sacraments , and yet when three pastors are added to help him he hath not the sole power of rebuking sin , and the sole and entire power to administer the sacraments , but these three pastors have power with him : this i conceive doth not help the matter at all : for though it be true that these three pastors being added to the first have each of them the like power as the first had , yet the power of the first for the performance of these things mentioned , is as comple●t in him notwithstanding this addition , as it was before , and not any whit abated nor impayred thereby : and the reason is , because matters of order flowing from the essence of a pastor may bee sufficiently and compleatly performed by one pastor singly , which acts of iurisdiction cannot . mr. rutherford his own words in this case are these , viz. a single pastor may ministerially give out commandements in the authority of christ , but hee cannot himselfe censure or excommunicate the contraveners of those commandements : due right , page 387. and againe , page 387 , 388 it is proper is acts of iuris●iction ecclesiasticall that they cannot be exercised by one alone , but must be exercised by a society : but a pastor as a pastor himselfe alone without any collaterally joyned with him exerciseth his pastorall acts of preaching and administring the sacraments . now if a pastor as a pastor himself alone without any collatterally joyned with him , may thus exercise his pastorall acts , then indeed the accesse or addition of other pastors is not at all destructive of his pastorall power , but he still retaineth the same as compleat and perfect as before , because hee doth these acts as a pastor and remaineth a pastor still . but how this example and instance can any thing further mr. ruth●rford his purpose , i do not understand . for his intention is to make good that a congregation may have entire power when it is alone , a●d yet not so when other congregations do arise ; and for the consuming of this hee brings this instance and example from a pastor that hath a pastorall power afore other pastors are added ; who by the addition of others hath no lesse power then afore ; which example i conceive rather makes against him then for him . for saith he , page 456. their pastorall power added to him is cumulative and auxiliary , but not privative or destructive of his pastorall power , and therefore that the first pastor suffereth losse by the addition of these three to him , who , saith he , will say this ? answ . i know none that will say it ; but if their power be cumulative and auxiliary to his pastorall power , and no wayes privative or destructive thereof , then what power he had afore they were added , the same he hath still in as great measure as formerly , and so his pastorall acts are as perfect and valid as they were before . now let the same bee granted to a congregation that hath neighbour congregations added , and we have what we demand : and if this be not granted , then though the power of those other pastors be cumulative and auxiliary to the other pastor , yet the power of those other congregations seemes not so to the former congregation , but rather privative or destructive of its power , and then how can this example confirme our brothers purpose , or how can it be avoided but the example which he produceth doth make against himselfe ? sure if the power of these other pastors bee not destructive to the former pastors power , but auxiliary thereto , so that what power he had before , the same he retayneth still , and in the same measure , then it must bee so likew●se in a congregation when neighbour congregations are added , or else this example will not suit : but make the examples to agree and our cause is advantaged thereby . our brethren doe conceive the power of congregations in its kind and essence to be monarchicall , so as if any power from consociated congregations be added thereunto , the congregations power monarchicall is diminished and the essence of it changed . answ . the power of congregations we ●old to be ministeriall , as being delegated from christ iesus , and to be exercised according to his appointment ; and in him alone and in no other do we place this monarchicall power ; according to what the holy ghost witnesseth , that there are differences of administrations but the same lord , 1 cor. 12. 5. and though our brother is pleased to put this upon us , that we conceive the power of congregations to bee monarchicall , yet in truth the same is farre from us : nor do i thinke that so much as one of us can be named , that at any time hath so spoken : nor doth such a thing follow from any thing delivered by us concerning the power of congregations . for as for that which here he intimateth and elsewhere expresseth more plainly , so that the power of iurisdiction in congregations is closely made void or destroyed by that power which some ascribe unto classes , if this be holden by us , doth it thence follow that we hold the power of congregations to be monarchical●● it followes not at all . for then by the like reason i could prove that himselfe d●th hold a power monarchicall in the universall or provinciall churches : for he expresly affirmeth , page 337. that the popes power destroyeth the power of the church universall , and the prelates power destroyeth the power of the church whereof hee is pretended pastor . and yet i hope he doth not hold a monarchicall power in the one chu●ch nor in the other , nor in any church or churches but in christ alone ; nor can the same bee truly concluded upon that which hee affirmeth of destroying the power of churches by the power of the pope and prelate . and if not , how then can any man conclude against us that we hold a monarchicall power in congregations , though wee should hold that the power of congregations is destroyed or diminished by that power which some would give unto classes● if our pr●mises will warrant him to fasten such a tenent upon us , his own will give a warrant for the like against himselfe . and if the ground be insufficient to beare such a conclusion against him , as i confesse it is , i know no sufficient ground why the same should be imputed unto us . compleat and en●ire power to rule both the congrega●ion and members of consociated churches in so farre as they do keep communion with that congregation , and may either edifie or scandalize them , floweth not immeaiately and ●ecessarily from the essence of every congregation even in remote ilands not consociated with others , that we never said . answer . indeed it were an absurd and grosse saying for any man to say , that a congregation in a remote iland not consociated with others should have power , yea compleat and entire power to rule the congregation and members of churches consociated and that this should flow immediately and necessarily from the essence of such a congregation . but there is no need that our brother should cleere himselfe from this saying , for i know none that imputes it to him . neverthelesse , the saying here ●●joyned cannot be denyed , for they are his own verb●ti●● . first , the ordinary power of iurisdiction because of neerest vicinity and contiguity of members is given by iesus christ to one congregation in an isle , because that church is a church properly so called : it is a little city , and a little kingdome of iesus christ , having within it selfe power of the ●ord and sacraments and that is a church and hath the essence of a church to which agree the essentiall notes of a church : now preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments are essentiall notes of a visible church : page 302. second , a congregation is a church wanting nothing of the being and essence of a church , page 302. third , where consociation is not , ordination and excommunication may be done by one single congregation , page 338. fourth , that in such cases ( viz. when a church is in an iland it selfe alone ) they have the word preached and entire power of discipline whole and entire within themselves to excommunicate scandalous persons , is not extraordinary , page 454. fift , it floweth co●naturally from a church to which agreeth the essence of a church , to exercise iurisdiction over all its owne members , ibid. sixt , neither doth a congregation transgresse any rules of christ at all , when it exerciseth entire power of censures within it selfe , whereas there be no consociated churches to share with it in that power , ibid. seaventh , a congregation is capable of entire iurisdiction , because it is a church , ibid. such sayings as these himselfe hath delivered in the pages and places here cited , and in the words and termes here expressed ; and therefore from these he cannot cleere himselfe and if from these the entirenesse of iurisdiction in a church that hath neighbours may justly be deduced , as i conceive it may , and have above manifested , it will then but little availe him to wash his hands from the stayne of that other absurd saying afore mentioned , which no man that i know do charge him withall . for as long as these other sayings do stand unrecalled , so long wee have cleere grounds from himselfe and his own words , for entirenesse of iurisdiction in every congregationall church , and so for the weakening of his cause , and for the strengthening of our own . a power to governe well and according to the rule of the word added to an other power to governe well and according to the word , is an auxiliary power and no way destructive to that power to which it is added . indeed a power to governe well added to a power of male-administration in a congregation is destructive of that power , and reason it should bee so , because christ never gave any such power of male-administration to a congregation . answ . here our brother speakes of two cases , first of a power of governing well added to a power of governing well . second , of a power of governing well added to a power of governing ill ; but besides these , there is a third case which had need to bee considered also , viz. a power of governing ill added to a power of governing well , which may be the case when the power of classis is added to a congregation ; for it is not impossible but the congregation may be in the right and the classis in the wrong . now what shall be said or done in this ●ase ? shall the congregation now have the free exercise of its power , or shall it not ? to say yea , would satisfie the minds of many , if the congregation themselves may be judge that they are in the right , or if it were determined who must judge thereof . and to say no , and that the power must still be in this erring classis , were to subject righteousnesse to wickednesse , and truth to falshood , and i conceive our brother will not maintain such power in a compound or presbytery or classis . for in page 335. speaking of this very case , and the greater presbytery is wrong in their voicing , and the elders of a congregationall church are right , and have the best in judging of a case before them , he plainly affirmeth , that the power which in this case the presbytery exerciseth is not of christ , and that de jure the power of the greater presbytery in this case ought to be swallowed up of the voices of the elders of a congregation , though they be fewer in number . now if this be so , then the thing in question is still as uncertain as before , and still wee are to seeke where the power of censures or iurisdiction doth finally reside . for in the one place our brother tels us , christ never gave power of male-administration to a congregation , and in the other he tels us the like of a classis or great presbytery , and that christ hath given no power to any church to erre . by which sayings we are left at great uncertainty : for still the question will be whether the congregation doth erre or no , and so whether the classis do erre or no , and unlesse it be determined who must judge of this , we are still but where wee were , and no neerer an issue then before . this indeed is most true and must be so acknowledged , that though the lord almighty have given a power unto societies , whether they bee families , common-wealths , or churches , and have made sundry of them subordinate to none other the like societies in the exercise of their power , but to have supremacy of power within themselves , yet he hath also given them just and holy rules in his word for the directing of them in the use of this power , from which rules it is not lawfull for them to swerve or go astray ; but if they do , it will be sin unto them , and he will surely require it of them : but now between these two the power it selfe and the abuse or right use of the power , we must carefully distinguish , for though abuse of their power bee not given of god , from whom comes nothing but good , yet the power it selfe being good is given of him , and is so to be acknowledged . and though abuse of their power do justly deserve at his hands that they should be deprived of the power it selfe , ye● god doth not alwayes forthwith deale with men according to their deserts herein , but many times continues still to them their power , though they have abused the same , much lesse doth he allow others to deprive them of this power because of every abuse thero● : witnesse among others the examples of the pagan princes in the apostles times , who through their ignorance , infidelity , pride and other sins , could not but in great measure abuse their authority , and yet the holy ghost commands the christians to be subject and obedient thereunto , rom. 13. 1 , 2. &c. t it 3. 1. not to obey them indeed , in doing evill at their commands , for in such case they must obey god rather then man , as act 5. 29. yet still they must be subject to the powers either actively or pa●●ively , even then when the powers were sinfully abused . even so , if a family shall abuse their power , it doth not follow that other families , may lawfully for this cause take away their power from them : or if a corporation shall so offend , it will not follow that other corporations may deprive them of their power . and if it be so in commonwealths , and families , why may wee not say the same of churches ? or how will it follow , if a church shall abuse their power , that other churches in such eases may take away the power from such a church ? for ought i see , this will not follow at all , no more then the other . for though christ have not given to any church a power of male administration as mr. rutherford speaks , yet hath he given to every church a power of administration , which if they manage not aright but do abuse the same , the lord iesus will be displeased with them for this abuse , and other churches may and ought to advise them and admonish them and testifie against them for the same ; but for the power it selfe , as christ himselfe doth not forthwith deprive them thereof , so much lesse may other churches take it from them , for who gave them this authority ? per in parem non habet potestatem : and churches are all of equall authority , and not one superior or inferior to another , as therefore when children or servants in a family are not governed as they ought to be , yet neighbour families have not warrant because of this male administration to invade the rights and destroy the power of such a family , even so it is in this case of churches ▪ this male-administration in a church is not forthwith a sufficient warrant for neighbour churches to invade the rights of such a church , and to take away its power from it . especially if we do consider that this male-administration in a congregation may possibly be but pretended and not reall , and that the administration of the classes may paradventure be really such ; in which case mr. rutherford saith the power of the classis is not of christ , but their voices ought de jure to be swallowed up by the congregation and the elders thereof . this argument therefore from male-administration of the power of a congregation , which mr rutherford saith , it is reason should be destroyed by another power added to it , meaning the power of a classis is of no sufficient force to take away the power of a congregation at all , not to establish the power of the classis over the same , being as justly applyable against the classis it selfe : therefore for ought that doth yet appeare , supreame ministeriall church power which i conceive must needs be somewhere , may as well be in the congregation as in the classis , and can neither by this argument of male-administration nor by any other that we have yet seene , bee placed in the classis any more then in the congregation . chap. xii . whether it be against the light of nature that the adverse party be judge ; and whether mr. rutherford can safely say that none of them do so teach , and whether this saying that parties may not be judges do make against entirenesse of power in a congation , any more then in a generall or nationall councell . the next place where mr. rutherford deales with the answer , is in his p. 456. where alledging mr. tompson and me , page 5. he hath these words as ours , viz. if it be against the light of nature that the adverse party be the sole iudge , which must be if the sole power of iurisdiction be in the congregation ( as wee grant in an extraordinary case and the congregation is in an iland it selfe alone ) and so it shall be lawfull for a single congregation to do that which is against all equity , and the very light of nature , it must then follow , that it is not against the light of nature that a congregation though consociated with other congregations have entire jurisdiction within it selfe . answ . our words in the page alledged are more prospicuous and cleere , then these which are here set down for ours : neither do wee make any mention of a congregation in an iland , nor yet of a congregation consociated with other churches , least of all do we say ( or report others to say ) that it is lawfull for a single congregation to do that which is against all equity and the very light of nature ; none of these things are ours . and therefore , that our true meaning may plainely appeare as it is , i will transcribe a few of our words , which are these , viz. sure we cannot thinke that there can be such a case imagined , wherein you would grant it lawfull for a single congregation to do that which is against all equity and the very light of nature , and yet you grant that the case may be such that a single congregation may have entirenesse of jurisdiction within it selfe ; which seemes to us plainly to prove that for a congregation to bee so independent as to be the finall judge of offences within it selfe , is not against all equity nor against the light of nature , as is intimated by you . these are our words , much differing from those which mr. rutherford sets down as ours , which i thought meet to relate out of the answer , that our meaning might appeare as it is , and no otherwise . and now let us heare what our brother subjoyneth for answer . none of us , saith he , do teach that it is against the light of nature that the adverse party be the iudge : it might fall out in a generall councell lawfully convened from which their is no provocation : yea and in a nationall councell ( for all councels may erre ) the adverse party may judge ; as it was a lawfull councell according to a church constitution that condemned christ of blasphemy and they were also his enemies . answ . and may it not also fall out in a provinc●all synod , and in a classis or presbtytery of many churches ? i suppose it cannot be denyed , but the iudges in all these may be the adverse parties ; and so if the adverse party may not be iudge , then neither generall nor nationall councels , nor provinciall synods , nor classes , nor presbyteries may be iudges ; because there is none of these but possibly they may be parties . and so this argument , parties may not be iudges , doth make no more against the congregations power of judging , then against all ecclesiasticall assemblies whatsoever . vnlesse therefore men would overthrow the power of all ecclesiasticall iudicatories whatsoever without exception of any , they can have no help from this argument to overthrow the power of iurisdiction in congregations . not to insist upon that which might also be truly alledged , that the objection hath the like force , ( if any at all ) against civill iudicatories . but is it so indeed as our brother affirmeth , that none of them do teach that it is against the light of nature that the adverse party be the judge ? i thinke he should not thus have spoken , for i am much mistaken if the contrary hereunto be not certainly true . for first of all , i alledge the words of reverend mr , herle , in his book of independency page 5. alledged in the answer : page 6 , the very pag. which here mr rutherford is dealing against . in which place of mr. herle there are these words , viz. that there ought to be graduall judicatories , wherein the agrieved party may appeale from the lesser to the higher , that against the very light of nature the adverse party be not the sole iudge and party too in the cause , there can be no ceremony or type in this , next of all i alledge the words of the same reverend author in his page 10 ▪ ( which is also alledged in the forementioned place of the answer ) where the words are these , what if a brother offend not a particular brother , but the whole congregation ? what if ten brethren offend the whole or part ? shall we thinke the offence fals not within our saviours remed or complaint or appeale here ? that the offended party be not against all equity the sole and finall judge of the offence . in which places wee see it is plaine , yet this reverend author counts it against the very light of nature ; that the adverse party should bee iudge and party too in the cause , and that it is against all equity that the party offended should bee sole and finall iudge of the offence . and therefore it is marvellous that mr. rutherford should say that none of them do so teach : yea , it is the more marvellous inasmuch as both these places of mr. herle are expresly mentioned in that very page of the answer which here mr. rutherford is disputing against . and therefore it he had not remembred that himselfe had read the same in mr herle , as like enough he had , yet finding the same alledged by us in that scripture of ou●s , it is marvell hee would not turne to the places alledged to search and see whether the thing were so or no , afore he had denyed the same . whereas on the contrary , whether he searched or searched not , this we see that he roundly affirmes , that none of them do so teach ; to which saying i know not how to assent , our eyes having so plainly seene and read the direct contrary , yea and further , it is yet more marvellous that mr. rutherford should thus write , considering not only what hath been already said , but also what himselfe hath written elsewhere : i will mention a few of his own sayings , and then himselfe shall be ●udge , whether the thing we have now in hand was by him advise●ly and well spoken . in his pe●ceable plea , page 218 he hath these words , when the graecian church offendeth the hebrew church , the hebrew church cannot complaine to the graecian church , for the law forbiddeth the party to bee judge . and what law hee meanes may be perceived by his words in page 208. of the same treatise , where he saith , if one man be wronged and see truth suffer by partiality , the law of nature will warrant him to appeale to an assembly , where there is more light and greater authority , as the weaker may fly to the stronger . now let himselfe be judge whether in these testimonies compared , he do not teach , that it is against the law of nature that parties should be iudge● , and that therefore men may appeale from them . againe , those words page 27 of the same book are so plaine as that nothing can be more , these words saith he what soever yee bind on earth , &c. must be meant only of the apostles , and of the church , verse 18. yea , and it must exclude peter and his offending brother , suppose they were both beleevers ; because parties by the law of nature and nations cannot be iudges . las●ly , those words are expresse in his due right of presbytery , in his see ●nd p. 338 , 339. where hee writes thus , if according to the law of nature and nations , no man can be iudge in his own cause , then are appeales from the eldership of one congregation , when they are a party to the caused person , naturall — but the former is reason , nature , law of nations . ergo so is the latter . in the assumption of which sylogisme he plainly affirmes that it is reason , nature , and the law of nations , that no man may be judge in his own cause , and by all this i suppose t● is manifest that the thing which he saith none of them do teach is expresly and plainly taught by some of them , and among others even by himselfe , who therefore ought not to have denyed the same , nor can bee cleered from much forgetfulnesse in so doing . and if so great an oversight be found in him , i hope himself may thereby be intreated to be tender of agravating matters against us or others , at leastwise not so farre to agravate them , as to impute unto us matters which we do not hold : for a mans owne infirmities should make him more equitable and favourable towards others . and christian readers may be warned hereby not hastily to receive all that mr. rutherford hath written , afore they have duly examined and tryed the same , whether the things bee so or not , for wee see through forgetfulnesse or otherwise hee may greatly mistake himselfe , and misse of the truth , and give forth such sayings and expressions for truth , as are in no sort to be maintained but recalled , though neverthelesse he is otherwise a man of great worth , and so ever to be acknowledged . we teach that it is not congruous to the wisdome of christ , nor to the light of nature , that christ should have appointed all the ordinary church courts , so many thousand congregations , who may rather crie then extraordinary and higher synods to bee the onely ordinary iudges in their own cause . answ . these qualifications and limitations of the matter of parties being iudges are such as to my remembrance i never heard given afore now . now indeed it is said 1. that all congregations being so many thousand . 2. may not be the only ordinary iudges in their own cause , but it would bee against the wisdome of christ and light of nature if it should so be ; yet formerly it was delivered absolutely and simply , that it is against the light of nature for parties to be iudges , without any such modifications and qualifications as now mr. rutherf . gives to help the matter withall . neverthelesse by qualifying the thing in this sort , it seemes thereby to bee still granted that though so many thousand congregations may not ordinarily be iudge in their own cause , but the light of nature will be against it , yet for some congregations and at some times the thing may be allowed well enough : else why is the thing denyed only to so many congregations , and ordinarily , if it be not thereby implyed that some congregations and at some times may thus practise ? now hereupon the question groweth , whether some at some times may bee allowed to do contrary to the light of nature , though all may not : or whether the light of nature bee changed when there comes to be many congregations , and be not the same that it was before , when there was no more congregations but one , whether i say some new light of nature do arise with the rise of new congregations , so that when they are many it would be against this light for them thus to bee iudges , though it was not so when there was but one : or whether we must say the light of nature remaining in the same , one congregation remaining alone may be allowed to do contrary thereto , but many may not . it seemes to be inconvenient and ha●d to affirme either of these ; and yet the one or the other seemes unavoidable by this that mr. rutherford here teacheth . for let it be granted that a congregation that is alone , yea a generall councell , yea a nationall councell also may be iudges in their own cause , and that no light of nature is against the same , and yet many congregations may not be so , but then the light of nature will be against it , let these things i say be granted , which are all of them granted and taught by mr. rutherford , and then i desire to know how the inconveniences mentioned can be avoided ; i meane how it can be avoided , but either some men or church assemblies may lawfully do that which is against the very light of nature , or else that the light of nature is changed when many congregations do arise , from that which it was when there was but one . yea the difficulty and intrica●y in this way is yet more , if it be well considered . for first of all when a congregation is alone , it is yeelded that it is not against natures light for them to bee iudges in their own cause . secondly , when many congregations do arise , now it is said it is against such light , that they should so be iudges : yet thirdly , when these congregations do gather into a nationall councell , then this light of nature will allow them to be iudges , as in the first case of a single congregation that is alone : and the same is also said of the generall councell : so that here is strange varying and changing of the light of nature , and of that which is against it , lawfull or unlawfull thereby . and when good reason and ground is given for the cleering of these things , we shall then consider further thereof , and see more then yet we do . in the meane time taking what is granted , that no light of nature forbids a congregation when it is alone , to have entirenesse of iurisdiction within it selfe , nor forbids the same to the generall or nationall councels , i thinke it may thence be inferred , that the like must be allowed to congregationall churches that have neighbours , and that entirenesse of iurisdiction in these is no more against the light of nature , then in the other . for to say that one congregation may have this entirenesse of iurisdiction and the light of nature allowe● it , and others may not but the light of nature forbids it ; yea to say first the light of nature allowes it , and then it forbids it , and then it allowes it againe , these are such abstruse and intricate things , yea so apparantly incongruous and inconsistent , that it passeth my understanding to perceive how they can stand together . chap. xiii . whether the churches at thessalonica and ierusalem , were each of them more then one congregation ; and of mr. baynes his iudgement therein . of the assembly mentioned luke 12. and whether our saviour did there speake to his disciples onely , or to all the people also . it is a wonder to me saith our author page 457. that thessalonica was but one congregation — yet the apostle ascribeth to them that which is a note to worthy baynes of the unmerous multitude of the church of jerusalem , from whence went the word of ged to all the world. 1 thes . 1. 8. for from you sounded out the word of the lord not onely in macedonia , and achaia , but in every place your faith to god-ward is spread abroad . answ . all this doth not hinder but thessalonica might be one congregation , though perhaps a great one . for that the word did sound out from them to others , and their faith to godward was spread abroad , what is there in all this to prove they were many congregations in one church ? and for mr. baynes whom our author worthily counts a worthy man , there is nothing in him that will serve mr. rutherford his purpose , but much that makes for the contrary . for it is well known in his diocesans triall he maintaines at large , that churches by the appointment of chr●st are congregationall , and denyes that one congregation may be one church : and in the particular instances of the church , at jerusalem , at co●i●th , at ephesus , at antioch and others , he holds the very same that we do , and the direct contrary to that which mr. rutherford stands for . and therefore whereas he wonders that thessalonica should bee one congregation , considering what the apostle saith of them , and what mr. baynes hath said of jerusalem , i may more justly wonder that he should once mention mr. baynes in this cause . for if ever there was man in this world that deny●d many congregations to be one church , and allowed onely such churches to be instituted of christ as may meete ordinarily in one congregation , this mr. baynes was one of them ; and therefore a wonder it is to me that mr. rutherford should thinke to have help from him in this question . but let us consider what it is that mr baynes doth say of the church at ierusalem : why , this which the apostle affirmeth of the thessalonians mr. baynes doth make a note of the numerous multitude of the church at ierusalem . but doth hee make it a note of many congregations in one church at ierusalem ? if he do , this were something to the purpose , i grant . but i hope mr. rutherford will not so report of mr. baynes ; for it is plaine mr. bayne● doth not so speake , but expresly saith the direct contrary ; and therefore what ever numerous multitude might be in that church , and what ever might be a note of such multitude , except mr. baynes had said that the multitude was such as made many congregations and yet all but one church ( which he never said but the contrary ) there is no help to be had from mr. baynes in this businesse . for who knoweth not that there might be a numerous multitude , and yet but one congregation ? sure in mr. baynes his judgement it might be so , and therefore though hee grant a numerous multitude in this church at jerusalem , yet mr. rutherford purpose for many congregations in thessal●nica and yet all but one church , is not gained , nor at all holpen thereby . which will better appeare if mr. baynes his argumentation in the place which i conceive mr. rutherford aymes at , be considered in page 3. of his diocesans tryall , he propounds an argument of theirs who would have many congregations to be one church , taken from the example of the ancient churches of rome and alexandria , laid down in these words : if the multitude of christians did in ierusalem so increase within a little time , that they exceeded the proportion of one congregation , how much more likely is it that christians in rome and alexandria did so increase in 200 yeares , that they could not keepe in one particular assembly : but the first is true , ergo also the latter . now when he cames to answer this argument , pag. 18 , 19. what doth he then say . first of all he saith , the proposition is not of necessary consequence , for there were saith he very extraordinary reasons of that which was effected in ierusalem : and so he proceeds to mention 5 , or 6. reasons in particular , of which one is this which it may be mr. rutherford hath an eye unto , that the state of this church was such as that it was to send out light to all others , a common aursery to the world. and therefore if the thing were granted that in jerusalem there was a numerous multitude , yea such a multitude as could not be contained in one congregation , yet saith he , it doth not follow from this particular to the so great increasing of these churches , to wit , of rome and alexandria in tract of time . and even so may i say , it doth not follow to the so great increasing of the church of the thessalonians , there being such extraordinary reasons for that which was effected in ierusalem , as neither rome nor alexandria , nor yet thessalonica could alledge the same . and this is his answer to the proposition . but for the assumption , where mr. rutherford his help must chiefly lye , to wit , that the multitude of christians in ierusalem did exceed the proportion of one congregation , this mr. baynes doth expresly deny : not to mention , saith he , that we do deny the assumption . therefore , the proposition being by mr. baynes not yeelded , and the assumption expresly denyed , i see not how master rutherford can have any help to his cause from either of both . he denyes not , he saith , what mr. tompson and i do say , that 5000 may meet to hear the word , many thousands were gathered together , luke 12 to heare christ . answ . if this be not denyed , then suppose there were 5000 or more in the church at ierusalem , it doth not follow therefore that that church was many congregations , and so our purpose is gained . but we , he saith , leave out the inconveniences of thronging so all at once , for they trod one upon another . second , christ preached not to all those thousands at once , for it is expresly said verse 1. hee began to say to his disciples ; so , christ refusing to preach to such a disorderly confluence of people , who could not heare , and his doctrine being all for his disciples , the very sermon being preached to his disciples onely — evidenceth to me that christ condemneth a numerous multitude to heare at once . answ . the question is not about the conveniency or inconveniency of such excessively great assemblies ; but whether there be an impossibility in nature , and reason , that so many as are said to bee in the church at ierusalem should assemble and come together in one congregation ; for this is sometimes said for the proving of sundry congregations in that one church . now if this be not impossible , then the plurality of congregations in that one church cannot bee concluded by those great multitudes that were therein . and that it is not impossible for such great multitudes to come together in one congregation , the scripture alledged luke 12 , doth witnesse . if they trod one upon another , that might argue the assembly was very great , and that they were very desirous to bee neere unto our saviour for their better hearing , but doth not at all prove that such multitudes are so great as that they cannot possibly be spoke unto and heare in one congregation . and therefore , whereas our brother saith , christ preached not to all those thousands at once , and that he refused to preach to such a disorderly confluence of people , with favour of so worthy a man , i thinke the truth is otherwise . for though he began to speak to his disciples , verse 1. and exhorted them against worldly carefulnesse , verse 22. yet others who were not disciples were present , and did also heare his sermon : witnesse that in verse 13. where it is said that one of the company ( interrupting our saviour as it seemes ) demands of him that hee would speake to his brother about dividing the inheritance ; to whom our saviour makes answer , verse 14. which plainly ●hewes that all the p●esent company were not disciples . yea whereas it is said , that hereupon our saviour spake to them of bewaring and taking heed of coveteousnesse , verse 15. and sp●ke a parable to them of a certain rich man , verse 16. and after this said to his disciples , verse 22. take ●o thought for your life what you shall eate , &c. it appeareth hereby that these persons spoken to afterward verse 15 , 16 , &c. were not the disciples , who were spoken to afterward , verse 22. but were some other people besides . and what can be more plaine then that in verse 54. where it is expresly said , that christ spake unto the people , rebuking them for their hypocrisie , that could discerne the face of the skye , and of the earth , but could not discerne that time ? and he said also to the people , saith the text ; doth it not plainly appeare hereby that as myriads of people were gathered together , ver . 1 so our saviour spake the word unto those people ? i suppose the thing is manifest , and that therefore our brothers words cannot stand , when he saith , that christ preached not to that confluence of people , but refused so to do , his doctrine being all for his disciples , for we see the holy ghost witnesseth that hee spake not onely to his disciples , but to the people also : chemniti●s hath these words , neg●ri non potest ●n hac satis prolixi concione , &c. it cannot bee denyed that christ in this long sermon of his , directed his speech first to his disciples , second to his friends , third to one of the company . fourth to peter demanding a question . fift to all the multitude , and it seemes the ev●ngelist was willing as it were to reckon up these severall parts or members of the sermon , harmon . chap. 110. and the refuter of dr. downams sermon saith , the mention of many thousands in jerusalem doth not make the number such as by no meanes could meete together in the publike worship of god , seeing it is apparent , luke 12. 1. that the people which assembled unto christ and partake his ' doctrine were also many myriads : and albeit he began at the first to speake to his disciples verse 1. yet afterward he spake to all the people assembled , ver . 13. 15. 54. reply p. 2. p. 90. wherefore though our brother say christ spake not to these multitudes of people but to his disciples onely , yet sith wee have the ●ext it selfe , and the judgement of two divines of chiefe note , expresly witnessing the contrary , therefore we cannot assent to him herein . whereas chrysostome saith 5000 did heare his voyce at once in one congregation by meanes of scaffolds and galleries , and mr. mather is willing to yeeld 8120 were all assembled in one place to heare the word , and that all the multitude of converts at ierusalem were together in solomons porch acts 5 12. i grant 3000 could heare at once , but alas &c page 458. answ . if chrysostomes testimony be of any weight , or mr. baynes his testimony by whom chrysostome is alledged diocesans triall , page 16. then a must be granted that not only 3000 , but a greater number , even 50●0 at least may heare the word at once . and if so , then 5000 members in the church at ierusalem will not prove plurality of congregations in one church , forasmuch as here are 5000 people and yet no more congregations but one . but alas this is a great uncertainty for independant congregations , but this is to be proved , first that 8000 ( mr. mather hath not added many other multitudes mentioned , acts 5. 14. & 6. 17. ) did meete dayly in the temple . second , dayly or ordinarily from house to house . third , to celebrate the lords supper dayly in the temple and in every private house , and there were need of many scaffolds and galleries , to sit at one table . fourth , to make one judicature , &c. answ . he that shall look upon the answer page 34 will plainely see that i have here spoken to both those places of acts 5. 14. & 6 1. shewing that neither of them do prove a plurality of congregations in this church at ierusalem , but rather the contrary . and therefore this parenthesis which doth intimate that i have omitted to speake to these places , must not be assented to , but denyed . but why must these foure particulars be proved ? i suppose he meanes because of that which is said act. 2 46. they continued dayly with one accord in the temple , &c. but this doth not cleere it , that these foure particulars must needs be proved , and the reason is ; first , because iudicature which is one of the particulars , is not mentioned at all in that scripture ; nor is it said by us , that a dayly exercise thereof is necessary in every church or in any . second , the lord supper , which is another of the particulars , is not mentioned at all in that text , at leastwise not in those words or termes which mr. rutherford sets down ; much lesse is it said as he expresseth it , that they did dayly celebrate the same both in the temple and in every private house : nor can the same for ought i know be proved by this or by any other scripture , nor was such a thing ever affirmed by us , so farre as i know . i suppose if they had celebrated it in the temple alone , or in some private house or houses alone , that might have been sufficient , without any necessity of celebrating the same in both places upon one day , both in the temple and in the houses too . nay it is a question whether the lords supper bee at all intended in this place ; though i doubt not but they observed that ordinance , and verse 42. may possibly teach so much . but for the verse we are speaking of , viz , verse 46 ▪ there is no necessity that the breaking of bread there spoken of , must needs be meant of that ordinance . sure he was a judicious expositor who understands it otherwise , quod hic fractionem panis &c. that is , whereas some expound breaking of bread in this place of the lords supper , it seems to me to be farre from lukes intention : calvin in act. 2. 46. so then , of mr rutherfords foure particulars which he saith we must prove , there is not past the halfe of them that needs to be proved at all , the two last being already removed . and for a third which is of breaking of bread dayly and ordinarily from house to house , understand this breaking of bread as calvin doth , of their civill repast , and then it hurts not our cause at all , though it be yeelded that they did dayly meet for such purpose in severall companies , in their private houses ; for this they might do and bee no more but one congregation . there remaines therefore onely one that needs to be proved , namely the first , that they did dayly meete in the temple ; and this may bee proved with case , because the plain words of the text do affirme it , they continued dayly with one accord in the temple ; so that yet we have found nothing that proves ierusalem to be many congregations in one church . nay i conceive , that one of these foure particulars , viz. the first , of their dayly meeting in the temple , doth apparently shew that how great soever the number was , yet it was not exceeding the proportion of one congregation , which might come together in one place ; for the temple was but one in all the city , i meane there was but onely one individuall temple , and not many temples , which if there had been then our brethren might possibly have said , that they met distributively in sundry lesser companies , but were to many too meete all in one congregation ; for so they were wont to expound sundry other phrases used by the holy ghost , to declare their comming together . true say they , they come together , but how ? not collectively all of them together in one place , they were too many for that ; but they came together distributively , some of them in one place , and some in another , and so they think they have answered sufficiently . but now to this of their meeting together in the temple , they cannot answer so ; for then there should have been sundry temples , in which they might have met , distributed into sundry companies ; but there being no more temples but one , and the text affirming plainly that they all met with one accord , in the temple , it must needs be , that they met collectively , all of them together in one and the same place ; and hence it followeth , that they were not so many but still they might be one congregation as well as one church . so that of the foure particulars , which he saith we must prove , some wee see need not to be proved at all , and the first of them which we can prove with case doth make much for the weakning of his cause , and for the strengthening of ours . yea mr. mather will have the whole containing as one independant congregation , act. 6. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. and the many myriads or thousands of beleeving jewes , acts 21. 21 , 22 , 23. to meete as one congregation . answ . when in the answer i speake of these places , the word independant was not there used by me at all , but only is here added by himselfe , for what cause himselfe can best tell . but for the matter , i conceive the thing which i there delivered is cleere from the texts themselves , that the multitude of those iewes did assemble and come together , in one place ; for as for one of the places act. 6. it is expresly there said that the apostles called the multitude together to propose unto them the choice of deacons , verse 2 ▪ and bad them look out from amongst themselves seaven men , qualifyed as the apostles do there describe , verse 3. whereupon it is said that the saying pleased the whole multitude and they chose seaven who are there named verse 5. and presented them unto the apostles that they might lay their hands on them , verse 6. which plainely shewes that the whose multitude how many soever they were , yet were not so many , but they might all assemble in one place , to heare matters proposed to them , to consider thereof , and upon liking to put them in execution , as in other things so in this particular , of making election of officers , as there they are recorded to have done . and as for the other place act. 21. though it be a question , whether those many thousand iewes , that beleeved were all members , of that one church at jerusalem , yet it cannot be any question , whether they might come together in one place , sith iames and the elders do expresly there say unto paul , the multitude must needs come together , for they will heare that thou art come . nor can we say they might come together onely distributively , in sundry companies , but not all in one place , for the end of their comming together will not beare that exposition , which end was , that they might see , and heare paul , and try what satisfaction he would give them , in the matter whereof they were informed of him , that he taught the iewes , to forsake moses , and to omit circumcision and other iewish customes . these things they were informed to have been taught by him amongst the gentiles , and hearing that he was come to the city , they must needs come together to heare what he would say to the matter , and how hee would cleere himselfe . now if this was the end of their comming together it must needs be that their comming was altogether unto one place , and not in severall companies ; for this could not answer their end , inasmuch as paul being but one person , it was not possible they could see him , nor heare him in sundry places at once ; and therefore they might as well have staid at home , and not have come together at all , as come together in such sort . plaine it is therefore , that the multitude spoken of in these two scripures were not so many but they might meete in one congregation . which point as something hath been said in the answer p. 34 , 35. for the cleering of it , so i am the more confirmed in it by mr. rutherford his dealing concerning these scriptures . for though he make mention of them in this place , as we see , and of that apprehension of mine concerning those scriptures , yet he doth not at all remove the grounds , which were given for that apprehension in the answer , but doth wholly passe them by in silence . now taking occasion to speak of the scriptures , and relating what my apprehension was concerning the same , and yet saying nothing at all to the gronnds , whereon that apprehension was built , it seemes hereby to bee implyed that indeed he had nothing in readinesse to object against the same . so that i may still conceive of those scriptures as i did before , for any thing yet brought to induce me to be of another mind . as for that which next followes , certainly the apostles practice must be our rule , and then 500 or 1000 being so farre beneath 10 or 8000 , may well seeme a number for fewnesse not competent , and what shall wee then thinke of 7 only , or 10. answ . the answer is , that the apostles practise doth not at all condemn ours , though our congregations have not in them the like numbers , but sometimes more and sometimes lesse ; for was it not so in that primative apostolike church ? is it not plain , that that church was for number farre lesser at the first , then afterward , when they grew to 4000 or more ; and yet after this they grew to be fewer againe , when persecution scattered them all abroad except the apostles , act. 8. 1. and therefore if 10 or 8000 , being once the number in that church , be a rule condemning out churches , as being for fewnesse not competent , when they are beneath that number , how will it be avoided but by the same reason the practise of that church at one time , shall be a rule , for the condemning of it self at another time ? for sure it is , their number was not at all times alike , but sometimes more , and sometimes lesse ; as in the sea it is not alwayes full tyde , but sometimes low ebbe , nor is the moone alwayes at full , but sometimes at the change ; nay if the apostles practise must be our rule , then inasmuch as their churches , had not alwayes the like numbers of members in them , but sometimes the number was greater , and sometimes lesser , it will follow therefore that the number of members in our churches needs not alwayes to bee the same , but though greater numbers be lawfull , yet the lawfulnesse of lesser numbers may not be denyed . chap. xiv . whether the church at corinth was one church , meeting distributively in sundry congregations , or whether it was onely one congregation . and whether 1 cor. 14. 23. if the whole church came together in some place &c. doe make for sundry congregations or for one onely . page 464. i cannot but thinke that weake which mr. mather and mr. tompson say ( answer page 37. ) the place 1 cor. 14. 23. that speaketh of the whole church comming together to one place doth unavoidably prove , that corinth had their meetings and not by way of distribution into severall congregations , but altogether in one congregation : and it is plaine , that though they had variety of teachers and prophets , yet they all used to come together to one place . answ . if that which wee say be weake , it is more easie for one of such ability and strength as mr. rutherford to overthrow the same . yet it is not words that will suffice , but weight of reason that must availe thereto . let us heare therefore his answer to this passage which he thinkes and censures to be so weake . the place saith he , 1 cor. 14. 23. if the whole church come together &c. deth evince the contrary . for the apostle doth there reason ab absurdo , from a great incongruity : it were incongruous saith he , and ridiculous that the whole church of corinth and all their guifted men speaking with tongues ( so that they could not be understood by infidels ) should all convene in one place , and speake with divers tongues : for the unlearned and unbeleevers would say they were madde ; therefore hee presupposeth that the whole church should not all come to one place , but that they should so come to one place , in divers assemblies . — answ . and is it true indeed , that this place doth evince the contrary ? viz. that the church at corinth did not all meet in one congregation : how shall we be assured that such a thing is evinced by the place ? for as for the reason given , &c. that the apostle d●th there reason ab absurdo , or from great incongruity , this doth not prove the thing at all , partly because they might practise something that were not meete but had incongruity in it , and partly ( and more especially ) because the apostle doth not lay the absurdity where mr. rutherford layes it , viz. in the convening of the whole church in one place , but in their speaking with strange tongues when they were convened and come together . touching the former of these , mr. rutherford reasoneth to this effect . if it were an incongruous or un●it thing that the whole church at corinth should come together in one place , then they did not so come together : but the first is true , ergo the second is true also . in which kind of reasoning ( such is our weaknesse ) we thinke neither part of the argument to be free from just exception . for as we wholly deny the assumption , so we also thinke there is no sufficient strength of consequence in the maine proposition , forasmuch as sundry things were practised in that church which were no wayes fit not meet to be practised , and which the apostle doth therefore reprove , and seekes the redresse of the same : witnesse their factions and divisions : chap. 1. & 3. their neglecting church censures against the incestuous person , and on the contrary being puffed up , chap. 5. their going to law one with another before the infidels , chap. 6. their abuses in prayer and prophesying , their women uncovered and their men covered , chap. 11. their abuses in the lords supper , when they so came unto it that one was hungry and another drunken , chap. 11. now as it were an unsufficient kind of arguing to say , these things were unfit and unmeet , and therefore that church did not so practise , even so mr. rutherford his arguing seemes to be no better , who would prove they did come together in one place , because the apostle , as he thinks , did count such comming together unmeet . for if it were granted that such a comming had been unmeet , yet it doth not follow , but such might bee their practise notwithstanding : and therefore as hee counts our apprehension in this matter to be weak , so i leave it to himself and others to consider , whether in this consequence , it was not meet they should all come together in one place , ergo they did it not , be very strong . i desire here not to be mistaken : for i do not grant that their comming together in one place was unmeet , nor that the apostle doth reprove them for the same ; i have already said the contrary , in denying the assumption afore mentioned , which i do still deny . but the thing i intend , is to consider the strength of mr. rutherford his reasoning , and for that cause to apply it to the thing in question , which i still desire to keepe close unto , if it may be . now the thing in question , being this , whether the church at corinth , were so many at that they could nor meet together in one assembly , but had many congregations , and all but one church , and mr rutherford maintaining the affirmative , and bringing this reason for it , taken from the congruity of meeting all together , i therefore thought meet , to weigh the strength of this reason , which i do not perceive to be in any wise convincing : but supposing the apostle had counted such meetings , inconvenient and unmeet , yet this reason as i conceive , is too weak to prove mr. rutherford his purpose , that their number was such as that they could not all possibly meet in one place ; for they might possibly do that which were unmeet to be done , in this particular as well as they did in many other things . but in this particular i do not thinke , they did any thing absurd , or unmeet at all ; and therefore for further answer to this reason i would say : that the apostle doth not say the absurdity , where mr. rutherford layes it , to wit , in that the whole church did convene , and come together , but in speaking with strange tongues when they were convened , this latter being incongruous : and absurd indeed ; for the infidels comming into the church assembly , and hearing them so speake , might thinke them madde , as the apostle sayes ; but for assembling all in one place , i know no madnesse that was in that ; nor shew thereof ; nor do i yet beleeve that the apostle doth place the absurdity there . for though mr. rutherford bee a worthy man and learned , yet such a thing as this had need of some further proofe then his bare word . if a church should meet distributively in divers assemblies , and being so met should speake with strange tongues , i demand whether this manner of speaking , do prove such a way of meeting absurd ; i suppose he will say no , because it is the way of meeting which he holds the apostolike churches did use ; and if so , then suppose they should so speake with strange tongues , when they meet collectively all in one assembly , how can this manner of speaking conclude the absurdity of such kind of meeting any more then it did in the other ? for my part , though such kind of speaking have incongruity and inconveniency in it , yet i conceive assembling collectively and in one congregation is no more prejudiced thereby , then assembling distributively in many . hee ( that is the apostle ) presupposeth that the whole church should come to one place , in divers assemblies , and all prophecy in a tongue known to the infidels , as the unbeleever being convinced and judged of all the prophets might fall down in his face , &c. answ . if the prophets were met in divers assemblies at once , i marvell how the unbeleever should be convinced and judged of them all ; for i hope one singular and individuall unbeleever was not present in divers assemblies at once , nor convinced and judged ( as here he is said to be ) by those prophets , from whose assembly he was absent . eithe● therefore the prophets were all met in one assembly and not in divers , or else it is yet a quaere how he could be convinced by them all . for sure the unbeleever could not be present in sundry assemblies at once . page 465. the whole church is not the whole much people of corinth that beleeved , that did ordinarily meet in one place , the text saith no such thing , and that is to be proved and not taken as granted . answ . suppose it were true , that the whole church was not the whole much people of corinth that beleeved , this doth nothing prejudice our cause , for as much as our question is not about the whole much people that beleeved , but about the whole church . if therefore it be granted that the whole church collectively did come together in one place , we have what we desire , and require no more . as for the whole much people that beleeved , whether this be the same with the former or no , wee shall have no need to prove or take for granted that these did in like manner come together , for as much as our question in the termes of it is not about these , but about the other . but why is not the whole church the whole much people that beleeved ? shall we say the whole church is more then the people that beleeved ? or shall wee say it is not so much ? i conceive it must be one of these , or else it must be the same . if it be said it is more , then still we have our desire , if not more then we demand . for if a company that is greater then all the much people that beleeved , were neverthelesse not so great , but they might and did assemble in one congregation , then that much people that beleeved might so assemble much more . for if there be no impossibility but a company that is greater may so assemble , i suppose the same cannot bee denyed of a company that is lesser . againe , to say this whole church was a greater number then the much people that beleeved , is directly to gainsay himselfe , who in page 460 , 461. makes the much people a greater number then the congregation meeting for the word , sacraments , and church censures ; because such a congregation , he saith , could not conveniently exceed one thousand , whereas the much people must bee much in comparison of thousands of jewes who rejected christ , for that otherwise it would not have beene much for pauls comfort , for which end it is mentioned and brought . if it be said the whole church be lesse then the people that beleeved , then it followes that some of those beleevers were not of the church , and so what himselfe hath written , page 125. 242. 251. will not stand . for in page 125 , hee saith , that the seale of baptisme and the profession of the truth is that which makes one member of the visible church — and by this are all the citizens and domesticks in-churched , and received into a visible church . and page 242. he saith any who blamelessely professe christ is ecclesiastically — in foro ecclesiae , a true and valid member of the church visible , having ecclesiasticall power valid for that effect , and page 251. he saith , a visible profession of the truth and doctrine of golinesse is that which essentially constituteth a visible church and every member of the visible church . now if these things be so , then it followes that this whole people that beleeved were all of them members of the church , inasmuch as they were all partakers of baptisme and profession , which he saith do essentially constitute the visible church and every member thereof . and they were all members of the church , then the church was not a lesser company then they . nor can hee say it was a greater company , for the reasons mentioned before . and if it was neither a greater company nor a lesser , was it not then the same . and if it was the same , then how can this stand which he affirmeth in the place wee have in hand , where hee saith the whole church is not the whole much people that beleeved ? it seemes to me , that which way soever he shall take , his own pen will be witnesse against himselfe ; for in the place wee have in hand , hee saith the whole church is not the whole much people that beleeved : and in another place hee tels us , that the much people that beleeved was a greater number then the whole church meeting for word , sacraments , &c. and yet in a third place hee tels us , that in effect it was not greater , inasmuch as all baptized professing beleevers , hee saith , are of the church . further , when the text speakes of the whole church comming together in some place , let the wise judge whether it be a good exposition to say , by the whole is not meant the whole , but only a part . which i conceive is mr. rutherfords exposition , who will not yeeld that the whole did come together in any one place , but part in one place , and part in another , the whole being distributed into severall parts , and those parts into severall places . so that the whole church comming together into some place , must have this meaning , the whole came not together in any place , but part in one place and part in another , which i feare is too much violence offered to the sacred text , which should be handled with reverence . but he brings a reason for this exposition , and that is this , because else we must say that at any one assembly all the prophets and teachers did prophesy at corinth ; for the text saith , he is convinced of all , he is judged of all , whereas the consequence should bee absurd , it should bee a longsome and wearisome meeting , page 465. answ . and if they prophesyed not all in one assem●ly but divers , how could the unbeleever bee convinced and judged by them all ? it will not bee easie to conceive how it could be , they prophesying in such a way : for the unbeleever sure could not be present in sundry assemblyes at once , but in one onely . and therefore , those words , he is convinced of all , he is judged of all , will lay as much absurdity upon his exposition of the words as upon ours , or rather a great deale more . for as for ours , there is no absurdity therein at all , for asmuch as by all the prophets is meant all that prophesied at the time , when the unbeleever was present , and not that all must prophesy upon one day as mr. rutherford would have it . but the text doth not so say , nor any interpreter that i have met withall . sure i am beza saith , the expresse contrary , for upon verse 31. ye may all prophesy one by one , &c. he hath this note , non eodem sane die , sed ternis &c. that is indeed not all upon one day ( which is mr. rutherfords exposition ) but three at every moeing , having their turne to speak till all had spoken by course . interpreters say they met in divers assemblies , page 465. answ . let those interpreters be named ; and there words set down , and then by gods help we shall consider of what they say , and of the grounds and reasons thereof ▪ in the meane time to say that interpreters say it , and yet neither to tell us the reasons nor the words of those interpreters , nor so much as the names of any of them , how should this prevaile with us to turne us away from our former apprehensions in the point ? true it is in another place , &c. pag 461. speaking of verse 31. yea may all prophesy one by one , hee there tels us that diodatus understands it that they might prophecy , by course and in divers or sundry assemblies ; and essius , saith he , saith the same , to wit , that these prophets were to prophesy in divers assemblies . answ . for diodatus i have him not at hand , and therefore i cannot peruse the place ; but for estius , this i may say , that he neither saith what here is reported in his commentary upon the verse alledged , nor upon any verse else in all the chapter , as farre as i can observe , and i have read and perused him on purpose to see what were to be found in him : but though i cannot find him affirming that which mr. rutherford brings him for , yet i find sundry places , wherein he seemes to me to affirme the contrary ; for instance , commenting upon the verse alledged , hee hath these words as the sence which he most preferres , viz. quod si non unus tantum propheta sed plures &c. that is , if not only one prophet but sundry , yea all do speake in the assembly in order , it will come to passe that those all may also learne , and receive exhortation , there being never a one of them , who is not also a hearer . wherein we see he speaks not one word of prophesying in divers assemblies at the same time , but that they were so to prophesy that all of them were to be hearers , and learners , as well as speakers . which doth plainly imply , that there must be many prophets in one assembly at once . againe , upon verse ●9 , he hath these words as the sense of the place , quamvis forte multi suit in ecclesiae — vestra prophetae &c. that is , although perhaps there be many prophets in your church , yet it will be sufficient if two or three do speake at one meeting , and for others it shall be their duty to judge , that is to say , to examine and try whether these things be true and sound which are spoken by them that speake . wherein he plainly shewes his judgement to be that at one meeting they were to have many prophets present , of whom two or three onely were to speake , and the rest to try and examine what was spoken . and to the same purpose he speakes upon verse 32. which he counts to be the same with that of judging , verse 29. further these words verse 23. of the whole church comming together into one place , he expounds thus , alicujus loci totus populus fidelis , that is , all the faithfull or beleeving people of a place ; which is contrary to mr. rutherford who will not have the whole church , to be the whole much people that beleeved . finally , speaking of those words verse 24. if all prophesy , he hath these words , nec omnes inteligit absoluté , &c. that is , the apostle understands not all absolutely but to this sense , to wit , if all that speake in the assembly of the church do prophesy , that is , if prophets only do speake , and they that have the gift of tongues do hold their peace . which is contrary to mr. rutherford who understands the text so , that they were all to prophesie at one time ; and because at one meeting there were but two or three to prophesie , which two or three hee thinkes could not be all , hee will therefore have it that they were distributed into severall assemblies , and so did prophesie all at once , though onely two or three at one meeting . for which interpretation , though he alledgeth estius , yet estius wee see affords him no help at all . whereupon i have marvelled why estius should be alledged , sometimes thinking with my selfe whether his name might not bee mis-printed by the printer , instead of some other man ; sometimes thinking whether mr. rutherford his memory might not faile him in this particular , having read the thing in some other author , and supposing it had been in estius . but what ever might be the reason of this mistake , he that shall examine estius will not find in him any help at all for mr. rutherfords cause in this particular , but the contrary . the text saith expresly , verse 29 , that at one time they prophesied but two or three . answer . this is a mistake also : for the words are , let the prophets speake two or three , and let the other judge . now let them do so , doth not shew their practise , but their duty : not what they did , but what they should have done . the text saith , if there be no interpreter let him that hath an unknown tongue keepe silence in the church , verse 20. and let your women keepe silence in the churches , verse 34. now shall any man say , that these texts do expresly prove that it was the manner of their women and of their men that had unknown tongues to keepe silence . i suppose no man can say it , the words being not a report of what their practise was , but a rule of direction to shew them how they ought to practise . and so wee say of the case in hand . but let it be supposed that it was not onely their duty , but also their practise to prophesie at one meeting but onely two or three , what can master rutherford gaine heereby ? his words following do tell us , where hee saith , if two onely prophesyed at one assembly , as this text will warrant cleerely . answ . not so , the text allowes three , which is more then two onely . but go on , and let us heare the consequence . then how doth this whole church consisting of all the beleevers at corinth , as is supposed by our brethren , convince the infidell , so as it may beare this sence , he is convinced of all , he is judged of all ▪ can two prophets be all prophets ? answ . though wee suppose the whole church consisted of all the beleevers at corinth , yet that the whole church did convince the the infidell , this wee never said nor supposed at all : for wee supposed and so do still , that hee was to bee convinced onely by the prophets , besides whom there were many others that were of the church . but for his demand , whether two prophets can bee all prophets , the answer is , that though two bee not all where there are more then two , yet if there bee no more , there it is otherwise ; and so where there are but two or three that doe prophesie at one meeting , there hee that is convinced by those two or three , may bee said to bee convinced of all , that is of all that doe prophesie . this sence of the place must needs bee received , else how shall the apostles words bee reconciled and stand together ? for as in one verse hee requireth , that the prophets speake two or three at one meeting , and the rest to iudge , verse 29. and in another verse affirmeth that the infidell in the case there proposed , is judged of all , verse 24. so hee doth not onely suppose in the very same verse , that they did all prophesie , if all , prophesie saith hee , and there come in one that beleeveth not , &c. but moreover in verse 31. hee expresly and plainely allowes them thus to prophesie ; yee may all prophesie , saith hee , one by one , that all may learne and all may bee comforted . which places compared doe evince the sence of the words heere given , and doe plainely shew that what hee saith verse 24. of the infidell being convinced of all and judged of all , may bee truely made good , if hee bee convinced of all and iudged of all that prophesyed at that meeting , though their number that so prophesyed were no more but two or three . and therefore whereas hee concludes , surely for my part i thinke it must unavoidably bee said , that they prophesyed distributively and in severall congregations , the answer is , that this needs not to bee said at all , but may bee avoided with ●ase ; and the contrary may bee safely held ; to wit , that they pro●●●cied collectively and in one congregation . for first , they did so prophesy , that one that beleeved not , and one unlearned might come in amongst them when they were prophesying , and by that meanes might bee convinced of all and judged of all , verse 24. which might well bee done , if they prophesyed all in one congregation , but otherwise it could not , for as much as one unbeleever could not bee present in severall congregations at once . secondly , they were so to prophesie , that the prophets when they prophecied were to have the rest of the prophets to bee 〈◊〉 , to heare and iudge of that which was delivered , let the prophets speake two or three , and the rest judge , verse 29. and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets , verse 32. the former of which sayings mr. rutherford himselfe doth understand of a colledge prophets , having a power dogmaticall of judging , and censuring the doctrine of the prophets delivered . what they speake , saith he , page 467. is to bee judged and put under censure ; for the whole colledge must judge ; for which he alledgeth verse 29. and a little after , this is not a power of judging which every christian hath , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith piscator doth relate to the prophets , who are to judge ; but as ● take it a propheticall judging , which may warrant the iuridicall power of a presbytery , &c. by all which it plainely appeareth that when the prophets did prophesy , the other prophets were to bee present , to heare and judge of the doctrines delivered ; and if so , how can it bee that they prophesyed in severall congregations at the same time ? for had it been so , they could not have judged of one anothers doctrine , which they could not heare , being themselves at that time imployed in speaking in some other place . and therefore it seemes more likely , that they met in one congregation , where they might all prophesy , first one and then another , some at one time and some at another , and so all of them might also heare and learne , and judge of the doctrine delivered by others . chap. xv. whether the church at ephesus were more in number then corinth and jerusalem , and the judgement of mr. baynes ; whether that church was many congregations , or one onely ? pag . 470. having suggested sundry things , to prove that ephesus was many congregations , and yet but one church ; hee concludes this , viz. upon these considerations , i leave to our reverend brethren their judgement ; if mr. mather and mr. thompson say right , we doe not thinke they were more in number at ephesus then in corinth and jerusalem , where the christians met all in one place . answ . the exception then which in this place is taken against mr. thompson and me , is for this , that we doe not thinke the christians at ephesus , to be more in number then at jerusalem and corinth . concerning which , i will not say much , but onely this , that as we have onely delivered what we think in this matter , without determining or asserting any thing peremptorily ; so we shall readily imbrace the contrary , when good grounds shall be shewed for the same : which though we doe not yet perceive to be performed in all that mr. rutherford hath said ; yet i will not here spend time in examining the same , because i do not count this point of so much importance concerning the principall thing in question . for whether the church at ephesus were more in number then corinth and jerusalem , or whether it were otherwise ; there is no great matter in this as touching the maine question . for if all of them were such churches , as might usually meet together in one congregation , as i conceive they were ▪ it matters not much which of them was most in number . but doth not m. rutherford prove that the one church at ephesus was more then one congregation ? i confesse , he hath sundry things in the precedent pages , which he intendeth that way . but in asmuch as they doe not concerne m. tompson and me in particular , nor are by him applyed against any passage in the answer ; i will therefore passe them over more briefly , my purpose being chiefly , to consider of such particulars , wherein he takes exception against the answer . only , thus much i would advertise the reader , that a good part of that which mr. rutherf . brings to prove many congregations in one church at ephesus , hath been answered long agoe by mr. baynes in his diocesans triall , pag. 5. which i the rather commend to mr. rutherfords consideration , because , he counts him a man of worth , calling him worthy baynes : and for the help of such readers , as cannot readily come to the book it self , i will here transcribe a few lines out of the same worthy baynes , as they are to be found in his dioces . triall . p. 5 , 6. viz. the church of ephesus was but one flock ; first , it is likely that it was of no other forme then the other . ( sir , ierusalem , antioch and corinth , which he had before shewed to be each of them one congregation . ) secondly , it was but one flock , that which presbyters might joyntly feed : they had no diocesan paster : if presbyters onely , then none but parishonall churches in and about ephesus : theremay be many flocks , but god ordained none but such as may wholely meet with those who have the care of feeding and governing of them : peter indeed 1 pet. 5. 2. calleth all those he writteth unto one flock , but that is in regard either of the mysticall estate of the faithfull , or in respect of the common nature , which is in all churches one and the same : but properly and in externall adunation , one flock is but one congregation . thirdly , parishes according to the adverse opinion were not then divided : neither doth the long and fruitfull labours of the apostle argue that there should bee parish churches in diocesan wise added , but a great number of sister churches . but when it is said , that all asia did heare , the meaning is that from hand to hand , it did runne through asia ; so as churches were planted every where , even where paul came not , as at collosse : there might be many churches in asia , and many converted by peter , and others fruitfull labours , without subordination of churches . chap. xvi . whether the church at antioch was onely one congregation , and whether acts 14. 27. and 15. 30. doe not prove the affirmative . the answer , having in pag. 5. alledged acts. 14. 27. and 15. 30 , 31. to prove that the church at antioch was no more then might be gathered together into one place , mr. rutherford in answer hereto saith , p. 472 , 473. that the place acts 14. 27. is the representative church , and that he beleeveth the assembling of the multitude , acts 15. vers . 30. must be taken distributively . answ . this answer of mr. rutherfords , to the former place , was removed long ago by worthy mr. baynes , who also understands the latter place as we doe , and not as mr. rutherford : for in his dioces . triall , maintaining this position , that the churches instituted by the apostles , were onely such as might meet in one congregation ordinarily , and giving this very place and instance of the church of antioch , for one of his grounds , for confirming the said position , p. 5. hee comes imediately thereupon to answer an objection , which is the very same that here mr. rutherford brings to the former place , viz. that the church mentioned in that place , was the ministers or representative church : for the removing whereof mr. baynes returneth 4. things , 1. that the word church , is never so used : 2. he argues by analogy from that acts 11. where peter gives account before the whole church , even the church of the faithfull , and therefore in like sort , paul and barnabas might report before the whole church of the faithfull , what things god had done by them . 3. saith he , they made relation to that church which had sent them forth , with prayer and imposition of hands ; and this church stood of all those who assembled to the publicke service and worship of god , ( which is cleere , acts 13. 2. ) 4. his fourth particular is this other place of acts 15. vers . 30. where , saith he , the people of the church of antioch were gathered together , to consider of decrees sent them by the apostles from ierusalem , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . in all which , we cleerly perceive the judgement of this worthy man to be the same with us , and as clearly against mr. rutherford , as can be expressed , which being so , and his judgement being delivered upon such reasons , as seem to me weighty , and which mr. rutherford doth not remove ; i therefore see no sufficient reason to think otherwise of the church of antioch then formerly . for as for m. rutherford his reason to prove the place , acts 14. 27. to be meant of a representative church , viz. that they met for a matter of discipline , at least for a matter that concerned all the churches , to wit , to know how god had opened the doore of saith unto the gentiles : the answer is , that this doth not evince the thing : 1. because rehearsing , how god had opened the doore of faith unto the gentiles , being neither admission of members , nor of officers , nor any matter of censure , nor any thing else ; but onely a meer declaration of the gracious workings of the lord , cannot be any matter of discipline , as i conceive . 2. suppose it were a meeting for matter of discipline , must it needs be a meeting for elders alone , without the presence of the faithfull ? will mr. rutherford deny it to be l●wfull for any to be present at matters of discipline , but onely the elders ? i suppose he will not deny it at all , sure i am he hath heretofore written otherwayes ; peaceable plea p. 49. where he granteth that all matters of discipline must be done with the peoples consent , and alledgeth about 19. or 20. divines old and new for the same tenet . now if matters of discipline must be done with the peoples consent , then the people must be present thereat ; for else they give their consent blindefold . and if they must be present at such matters ; then suppose the matter mentioned in the scripture we have in hand , had been of that nature , yet the church that was gathered together about the same , needed not to be a representative church of elders alone , as mr. rutherford would have it , but might consist of the people also , who by his own grant may be lawfully present at such matters . 3. be it a matter of discipline , or a matter that concerned all the churches , or what else mr. rutherford will have it ? it is plain that paul and barnabas when they were at ierusalem , did declare such matters as here they do declare at antioch , not onely to the apostles and elders , whom he perhaps would make a representative church , but also to a church besides them , i mean besides the apostles and elders ; for so it is said , acts 15. 4. that at ierus●lem they were received of the church , and of the apostles and elders , and declared all things that god had done with them : and vers . 12. they declared to the multitude what miracles and wonders god had wrought among the gentiles by them . now if they declared these things at ierusalem not onely to the apostles and elders , as to a representative church , but to the church of the faithfull also , as the text saith , they did , what reason can be rendred that the church , which was gathered together at antioch , should be onely a representative church ? and that the people there were not present ? for my part , i see no reason for it , but that they might declare these things to the brethren a● antioch , as well as to the brethren at ierusalem ; and as well to a representative church at ierusalem , as to a representative church at antioch . and therefore sith it is apparent that at ierusalem they declared these things to a church , which consisted of others besides apostles and elders ; the church at antioch to whom they declared the same things , might be also a church of the like kinde , and not a representative church , as our brother conceives it to be . 4. the nature of the thing , which they doe declare to this church was such , as that it was fit enough for the people to be acquainted therewith ; which the text mentions in two clauses ; first , more generally , all that god had done with them : secondly , more specially , how he had opened the doore of faith to the gentiles . now suppose the people had nothing to do in matters of judicature by way of power therein , yet to be informed of other peoples conversion , and how god blessed the labors of the apostles to that end , which are the things they declared to this church , these are no such matters , but the people may bee acquainted therewith for their comfort , and that god might have praises from them all ; and therefore the church to whom paul and barnabas declared these things , needs not to be understood of the elders alone , but may well enough be a church consisting also of ordinary christians . 5. paul thought it not unmeet to make known to all the corinthians the grace of god bestowed on the churches of macedonia , 2 cor. 9. 1 , 2. and declareth to them of macedonia , the forwardnesse of the corinthians in the grace of liberality , 2 cor. 9. 2. shewing the good that came hereby , in that the example of gods grace , in some provoked many others to the like , 2 cor. 9. 2. your zeale , saith he , hath provoked very many ; and likewise in that , by this meanes , there redounded many thanksgivings unto god , vers . 12 , 13. and if upon these and other good causes he did thus practice towards the christians of macedonia and achaia , i know no good reason why he and barnabas should deal otherwise with the christians at antioch , and conceale from them the gracious workings of god by their ministery amongst the gentiles ; and make known the same onely to a representative church of elders . as for our brothers answer to the other scripture , act. 15. 30. that the assembling of the multitude , there spoken of , must be taken distributively , i conceive the text will not beare that exposition : for the words are that they gathered the multitude together , then delivered the epistle . now if this multitude was gathered together not in one assembly but diverse , how could the epistle being but one , be delivered to them all ? can one epistle be delivered to sundry or severall assemblies at one time ? i suppose it is not possible , except we shall imagine there be sundry coppies , one to be read in one assembly , and another in another ; whereof in the present case , there is not so much as the least hint . and if we would imagine such a matter , for which there is small reason ; yet since it is , iudas and silas , by whom this epistle was sent , and who were to tell the same things by mouth , and who also upon the delivering of the epistle exhorted the breathren of antioch , with many words , as is cleare , vers . 22 , 23 , 27 , 32. iudas and sila● , i say , being but two men could not be present , and speak , and act these things in many assemblies at once , but must of necessity be both in one assembly , or at the most in two : but the text makes no mention of their being in two , but plainly enough intimates the contrary , that they were both together : and yet where they were present , there was the multitude gathered together , to receive the epistle by their hands , and to heare the report and word of exhortation at their mouth . unlesse therefore we will imagine that iudas and silas could be present , and act in many assemblies at once , there is no reason to think this multitude among whom they were present and acted , to be many congregations or assemblies . and therefore for his conclusion , pag. 475 , 476. that the mentioning of one multitude in the singular number , acts 15. 30. can never prove that there was but one single congregation at antioch . the answer is , that we doe not lay the force of our reason in the mentioning of the multitude in the singular number , and therefore it can not thus be satisfied , or put off : for our words are these : the whole multitude of them were gathered together at the return of paul and barnabas from the synod at jerusalem , to heare the epistle read , which was sent from that synod : answer p. 50. wherein it is easie to perceive , that we lay the force of our reason not in this , that the church is called a multitude in the singular number ; but in this , that the whole multitude were gathered together , for such an end , as there is expressed : and this we still conceive may prove the point : for a church , which is such a multitude , as is gathered together , for the receiving of one epistle , which was sent unto them all , and which is gathered together to heare the epistle read , and also to heare the same things by mouth , the men from whose mouth they must so heare , and from whose hands they must so receive , being no more but two ; such a church as this can be no more , but one congregation , or assembly . now antioch was such a church : and therefore was no more but one congregation . if this conclusion be not granted , some way must be devised how many severall assemblies might all be receivers and hearers of one and the same epistle at the same time , there being but one coppy of the epistle , as also how they might at one time heare the same things declared to them by mouth , when there was but two men to declare the same . and when such a way is found out , we may then further consider thereof . but in the mean time , the grounds and reasons alledged doth induce me to think , that antioch , where those things were thus done , was indeed , but one congregation . chap. xvii . whether no liberties are given by christ to the people , but women must exercise the same , as well as men : and of the peoples liberty about ordination , or the calling of ministers . in the answer , p. 8. we have these words , viz. governing properly so called we acknowledge not in any , but in the elders alone , 1 cor. 12. vers . 28. rom. 12. 8. heb. 13. 17. if that word be ascribed to the people , it must be understood in a more improper sense ; for that which impropriety of speech were more fitly called liberty or priviledge : and yet this liberty when it is exercised about ordination , deposition , excommunication , &c. is of the whole body communiter , or in generall , but not of all and every member in particular , as you conceive us to hold ; for women and children are members , and yet are not to act in such matters , the one being debarred by their sex , and the other for want of understanding and discretion . this passage mr. rutherford having related ( though with some variation ) in his pag. 476 : in answer thereto , he saith thus , p. 477. if there be no governing power in women , nor any act at all in excommunication , you loose many arguments , that you bring 1 cor. 5. to prove that all have hand in excommunication , 1. because paul writeth to all . 2. all were to mourne . 3. all were to forbeare the company of the excommunicated : then belike paul writeth not to all saints at corinth , not to women , and women were not to mourne for the scandall , nor to forbeare his company . answ . if mr. tompson and i doe being such arguments from 1 cor. 5. why is not the place quoted , where we doe bring them ? i suppose there is no such place at all that can be produced ; and therefore i desire so much favour , that what we never said , may not be imputed to us , nor divulged abroad , as ours . if others doe bring such arguments from 1 cor. 5. they that bring them are able to speake for themselves , and to give account of their own arguments ; but i know no reason that doth require , that we should be drawn to defend such arguments as we never used ; nor that doth allow our reverend brother to report such arguments as ours ; which having never been used by us , i counted it therefore an impertinent digression , to spend time in the defence of them . the priviledge , saith he , being a part of liberty purchased by christs body , it must be due to 〈…〉 for the liberty wherewith christ hath made women free , cannot be taken away 〈…〉 of god from their sex , except in christ iesus there be a difference between iew and gentile , male and female . answ . that which is in the people , we say , in propriety of speech , is more ●itly called liberty or priviledge : but of liberty purchased by christs body or blood , we make no mention at all : and therefore our brother might have spared speech thereof . but it is true indeed , that the people can have no liberty , but women also may exercise the 〈…〉 else their liberty purchased for them by christ is taken away ? it seems , he so conceives : but then i desire to know how his own doctrine elsewhere , and the apostl●s w●●ds can stand together : for in one place , he saith , that acts 14. 23. proveth that elders ordaine elder , with lifting up of the hands of the people , and this , saith he , is 〈…〉 doctrine , due right p. 190. and in another place , he saith , the people have gods right to choose ministers , for so the word prescribeth ; for which in his margent he alledgeth 〈◊〉 severall texts of scripture , acts 15. 22. 1 cor. 16. 3. 2. cor. 8. 19. acts 6. 4. acts 14. 23. and in his text alledgeth tertullian , cyprian , ambrose , origen , chrysostome , the councell of nice , the first generall councell of constantinople , with other councels and authors witnessing the same : pag. 201 , 202. and in a third place , he grants that all matters in the church must be done with the peoples consent , consentiente plebe , alledging a matter of 18. or 19. authors for the same tenet . peaceable plea , p. 49. and in another place he alledgeth and approveth the judgement of mr. calderwood , and mr. cartwright affirming that this liberty is purchased by the blood of christ : due right , secondly , pag. 464. all which , do plainly shew that in his judgement , the people have some 〈◊〉 , or priviledge , or right in church matters ; yea , as himself saith in this , they have divinum jus , gods right : and yet for all this , the apostles words do plainly forbid women to speak in the church , 1 cor. 14. 34. 1 tim. 2. 12. which very prohibition to women doth also secretly imply , that men may have liberty to practise , though women may not . now then , if the people have liberty , priviledge , right to consent , and act in church matters ; yea , to speak in the church , and yet women may not speak therein , how can this stand , which here m. rutherford writes , that if the people have any liberty , this liberty must also be due to women ? if the apostles words and our brothers own doctrine in the places cited do stand , his saying in the place , we have now in hand , cannot stand , they being so contrary one to another . thirdly , saith he , what priviledge the people have in ordination to conferre a ministery , which they neither have formally , nor virtually , i know not . answ . neither formally , nor virtually ? then hear your own words , pag. 7. i deny not but there is a power virtuall , not formall in the church of beleevers , to supply the want of ordination of pastors , hic & nunc ; this power is virtuall , not formall , &c. whereas in the place we have in hand , the virtuall power as well as the formall is denyed ; which things are not free from interferring , or strong appearance thereof . our words are not just the same which m. rutherford sets downe , a priviledge in ordination to conferre a ministery ; but these are our words , a liberty exercised about ordination , &c. and who knows not but there may be a liberty exercised about ordination , or any other ordinance by way of consent thereto , or desire thereof , &c. without any authoritative acting therein ? and if this liberty about ordination be such a fault , then how shall he be justified , who doth give to the people a greater matter then this liberty doth amount unto , even a power to do that which shall stand for ordination it selfe ? which to do i conceive is more then to exercise some liberty about ordination . and when the reader shall have considered these ensuing words of m rutherford : then let him be judge , whether m. rutherford do not give this power unto the people in some cases . as a rose , saith he , caused to grow in winter by art , is of that same nature with a rose produced in summer by nature , though the manner of production be different ; so are they both true pastors , those who have no call , but the peoples election , and those who have ordination by pastors , p. 186. and in the page following , he gives two reasons to prove that in some cases election by the people onely may stand for ordination : 1. because god is not necessarily tyed to succession of pastors : 2. because where men are gifted for the work of the ministery , and there be no pastors to be had , the giving of the holy ghost is a signe of a calling of god , who is not wanting to his own gracious intention , though ordinary means faile . now if the people without pastors may do that which shall stand for ordination , and if their election do make a minister in some cases ; this seems to be more then onely to exercise some liberty about ordination , for as much as they may doe this latter , and possibly no minister be made thereby ; whereas in the other case a man is made a true pastor and minister , as well as by ordination it selfe . marvell it is therefore that the greater is allowed as lawfull , and not the lesser : that some liberty about ordination may not be allowed , and yet that can be allowed which may stand for ordination it self , and which makes a minister● as truly as ordination doth . chap. xviii . of mr. rutherfords report of synodicall propositions in new-england . next after this , our reverend author falls to scanning , as he saith , pag. 476. some synodicall propositions of the churches of new england , as he calls them , together with a table of church power , which he calls the table of new england . but with favour of soworthy a man , he doth greatly mistake the matter : for neither was there any such synod , nor synodicall propositions as he speaks of , nor any such table of new england , as hee mentioneth . there was indeed at cambridge in the year 1643. a printed conference of some of the elders of that country ; where sundry points of church judgement were privatly discoursed of , and this was all . but as the meeting was not any synod , as synods are usually understood , so neither were there any synodicall propositions there agreed upon , nor any table of propositions agreed upon to be given forth as the doctrine of new england . this i am able to testifie , having been present at that meeting from the beginning thereof unto the end : and sundry others of the elders of these churches can testifie the same , upon the same ground : and knowing full well the truth of what i heare relate , i will not spend time in replying to what he hath written upon so manifest misinformation , and mistake . what information he goeth upon , i know not : per adventure some notes may have come to his view , which one or other might gather at that conference for his own private use : peradventure some in their simplicity meaning no hurt , many have called that private conference by the name and tearme of a syno● , and m. rutherford might thereupon adventure to publish in print as here we see . but however they mistake a rose , sure i am , synodicall propositions there were none ; 〈◊〉 any synod at all , not new england table . and therefore i think himselfe and others may do well and wisely hereafter , to be informed by good and sufficient intelligence of such things as they publish to the world concer●ing the churches in new england , or else not to beleeve the same , much lesse to divulge the same in print . for what comfort can it be to any christian to receive , and publish to the world against a mans neighb●u● , specially against whole churches of christ , such reports as for the matter contained in them do not agree with truth ? chap. xix . of the appeales of luther and cranmer : and of the power and jurisdiction in generall councells denyed by mr. rutherford ; whether therein he do not contradict himselfe , and also overthrow the jurisdiction of classicall , provinciall , and nationall assemblies . in his page 482. alledging mr. tompson and me , pag. 16 , 17. hee reports us to say , that though some have appealed , as luther and cranmer from the pope to a generall councell , yet not from a congregation to a generall councell . answ . as he one of these pages hath nothing at all concerning this matter , and therefore might well have been spared , so neither of them both doth make any mention of luther , either of one purpose or other : and therefore it is some marvaile , why he should be mentioned as thus spoken of by us , who do not speak of him at all so much as one word , for any purpose whatsoever . nor do the rest of the words of appealing from a congregation to a generall councell agree with ours , as we have set them downe in the 16. page alledged ; and therefore that our mind and meaning may appeare , let me relate our own words which are these , how this example ( sc . of cramners appealing to councell , related by mr. fox ) doth suit the present question , we do not understand ; for his appeale was not from a particular congregation , but from the pope : nor was it from a synod , but to the next generall councell , which from that day to this hath not yet been assembled nor called . if we must hold a necessity of appeales to such a iudicatory as cranmer appealed unto , then the supremacy of synods provinciall , and nationall is utterly taken away . these are our words in the place alledged by mr. rutherford : now what doth he answer thereto ? in matters doctrinall , saith he , some as luther , and others have justly appealed from congregation to a generall councell , though luther and cranmer did it not . answ . say it be true , that cranmer did it not , yet for luther how can it be that he should be an instance , both of such as did it not , and of such as did it ? for luther and others have justly done it , and yet luther and cranmer are two of them that did it not , these are sayings which seem not to agree . againe , if luther did so appeale , why is no proof alledged for confirmation of what here is affirmed ? which if there had been , we might have considered thereof . but sith there is not , we may be allowed to forbeare assent , till that which is here nakedly affirmed , be further strengthened by some proofe or other , to make it good . lastly , if luther or others have justly appealed from a congregation to a generall councell , then why will it not be lawfull for others upon like occasion to do the like ? and if so , then ( as we argued in the answer ) the supremacy of classicall , provinciall , and nationall presbyteries is utterly taken away : and so , by this meanes causes and controversies may still be depending , and never come to be determined so long as this world shall endure ; which whether it be agreeable to the wisdome of christ , and good of his people let the wise judge . though verily , i professe , i cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandalls , can be in a generall councell ; there may be some meerly doctrinall power , if such a councell could be had , and that is all . answ . for my part , i am altogether of the same minde . but here i have a quere or two to propose to our reverend brothers serious consideration ; first of all , how this passage doth agree with that which himself hath written , pag. 387. where he saith , it may be made good that a power dogmaticall is not different in nature from a power of jurisdiction , and that we read not of any society , which hath power to meet to make lawes and decrees , which have not power also to back their decrees with punishment . yea , he saith further that if the jewish synodry might meet to declare judicially what was gods law in point of conscience , and what not , farre more may they punish contraveners of the law : for anomothetick power in a society , which is the greater power , and is in the fountaine , must presuppose in the society 〈◊〉 lesser power , which is to punish . anomothetick power ministeriall cannot want a power of censuring . so that whereto in the place we have in hand , he saith , there may be in a generall councell , some 〈◊〉 doctrinall power without any power of jurisdiction to censure , in this other place , he saith , these powers do not differ in nature , nor can the former be without the latter ; but doth alwayes presuppose the same , as that which is lesser , and which it cannot want . now how these things do agree i am not able to understand : next of all how doth this passage we have in hand agree , with that which is written p. 308 , 309. where he saith , it is by accident , and not through want of inate and intrinsecall power , that the court of a catholick councell can not in an ordinary and constant way exercise the power which christ hath given to her ; and what that power is he expresseth in two or three lines proceeding , viz. a power of jurisdiction to excommunicate and relax from excommunication even nationall churches . if the lord should be pleased to give the christian churches a generall councell this day , might lawfully in a jurisdictiall way declare the faction of the romish pretended catholicks to be mysticall babylon — which in excommunication in the essence and substance of the act . and againe , this of our saviour , tell the church , is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to a generall councell . and in page 304. he tells in that a power of jurisdiction ( though he call it extraordinary and remote , and which is but rarely to be put forth in acts ) is given to the catholick visible presbytery , of the whole catholick visible church . in all which places he plainly affirmeth there is a power of jurisdiction to censure scandalls in a generall councell , which in the place we have in hand he doth as plainly deny . thirdly , if there be no power of jurisdiction to censure scandals in a generall councell , then how shall it appeare that there is such power of jurisdiction in the classicall , provinciall and nationall presbyteries , which are farre lesse ? yea , and that there is in these presbyteries a power independent and supreame , without appeale to any other . for such power there must be in some of them , if there be any power of jurisdiction in them at all , sith we are told there is no power of jurisdiction in the generall councell to appeale unto . now how shall it appeare that any such independent supream power of jurisdiction is given to any of those presbyteries ? where are the texts of scripture that speak of such power ? for our parts we know of none , but do still think that this power is placed by christ in a single congregation and its presbytery , and are the rather strengthened in this apprehension , for that the reason which is wont to be given against the congregations power , and wherein our brethren are wont to place their greatest strength , sc . that appeals are juris naturalis , and that defects , in the parts are to be supplyed and holden by the whole , this reason we see is now removed and utterly taken away , forasmuch as all power of jurisdiction is denyed to the generall councell which is the inevitable . now if there be no power of jurisdiction within the generall councell , then there can be no appeals to such a councell for such an end : and if no appeales to that councell , then the rule doth not alwayes hold , that there must be appeals from the lesser assemblies to the greater : and if this do not alwayes hold , then there may be independent power of jurisdiction in a congregation without appeals from the same , though it be a lesser assembly then the classicall , provinciall and nationall presbyteries , and thus our purpose is gained . for how can it be avoided , except this power of jurisdiction ( yea supream or independent power ) which is denyed to the generall councell , could be proved to be in the classes , synods , or nationall presbyteries , which we think cannot be done . indeed to say on the one side , that 〈◊〉 is no independent power in the congregation , and to say on the other side , that there is no power at all of jurisdiction in generall councells , this doth inevitably lay a necessity of such independent power in these intermediat assemblies of the classicall , provinciall and nationall presbyteries ; except we shall say there is no such power at all appointed by christ in any church assemblies on earth . now if such independent power be given to the presbyteries mentioned , ( as it needs must if it be neither in the generall councell , nor in the single congregations ) then i desire to know upon what scripture or scritures , such power in the said presbyteries is grounded and built ; and whether the said power belong unto them all , or only unto some of them , and which they be , and why not to the rest as well : yea , why not to the single congregation , nor yet to the generall councell , as well as to any of them . when this quaere is answered , and the answer sufficiently proved by scripture , then we shall see more reason for the jurisdiction of such assemblies over the particular congregations then yet we have seen . in the mean , time this quaere with the rest i leave to our brethrens consideration . chap. xx. if it were granted that the light of nature teacheth all societies to end in monarchies , whether it would not thence follow , that the government of churches must so end , as well as that congregations must depend on the government of synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion in government to other societies . and whether the multitude of grecians and hebrews , who chose the seven deacons , act. 6. were two congregations or one onely . pag . 482. if churches must be dependent on synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government , by the same reason churches must end in a monarchy on earth ; for which he alledgeth the answ . pag. 20. and then subjoyneth his answer , thus : i see this said without any approbation : churches depend on many above them for unity ; but what consquence in this , erg● they depend upon one visible monarch ? it is an unjust consequence . answ . with favour of so worthy a man , he greatly wrongs our words ( and thereby wrongs the reader ) by leaving out those words wherein the plainenesse and strength of our argumentation lyes . therefore i am forced here to relate the order and progresse of the dispute in that script of ours , and to set down our words there used , because as mr. rutherford hath set them down , the strength of consequence is suppressed from the readers knowledge , and so indeed his answer is made easie : but the naked truth lyes thus . our reverend brother to whose treatise we return answer in that small piece of ours , having said , that communion and assistance in government is taught by the very light of nature to all societies whatsoever , whether commonwealths , or armies , universities , or navies ; he presently addeth by way of prevention . not that therefore this government of churches should ( as those ) end in a monarchy upon earth . in answer whereto , besides other things , we have these words , pag. 21. if churches must be dependent on the government of synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government to all societies whatsoever , then we see not how it will be avoided , but by the same reason , churches must end in a monarchie on earth , if it were once cleared , that the light of nature doth teach all societies whatever so to end ; so there is as good reason for this as for the other . which last words , if it were once proved &c. mr. rutherford wholy leaves out and suppresseth , and so makes his own answer more easie . but i desire so much favour , which i think is but reasonable , that he that will undertake to answer our writing , would represent our words and arguing as it is , and no otherwise , and then i am content that the same may come under tryall . now our arguing is this ; if churches must be dependent upon the government of synods upon this reason ; because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government to all societies whatsoever ; then by the like reason let it be once proved ( which is by mr. herle affirmed ) that the light of nature teacheth all societies to end in a monarchy , and it will thereupon follow that churches must likewise end in the same manner . if we yeeld thus much that what the light of nature teacheth other societies , the same must be observed in the government of churches : i think it will then follow , that if the light of nature teach other societies to end in a monarchy on earth , the government of churches must do so also . this is our manner of arguing , in which the consequence is the same with that which our brethren think so strong , viz. that because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government , therefore there must be in the churches a government of synods . if any say the consequence is not alike necessary in both cases , because the ground doth not hold alike in both , for the light of nature doth not teach all societies on earth to end in a monarchie , as it doth teach a communion and assistance in government the answer in that we have plainly said the same , in the place of the answerer alledgeth , viz. p. 20 , 21. but the main question lyes not there , whether other societies do end in monarchies , ( for though the reverend author whom we there doe answer , do seem so to judge ; yet we have there plainly declared , that we conceive of that matter otherwise : ) but here doth lye the main question , viz. suppose it were granted , that light of nature doth teach all societies to end in a monarchy on earth , whether would it not then follow that churches must also so end : and that this is the thing in question wil plainly appear to any that shall peruse the place . and to this question , our answer is that the consequence for the affirmative is as good as in that other case , in which our brethren do think it so strong : viz. for the government of synods over congregations , from the communion and assistance — government taught by the light of nature to other societies : and our reverend brother granting that the light of nature doth teach the one as well as the other unto other societies , that is , that they should end in monarchies , as well as have communion in government , our answer is that thereupon the consequence will be as strong for the one as for the other in churches . in which arguing it is easie to perceive that we go upon the ground which was laid and given us by our author : and therefore for m. rutherford to suppresse this ground which we have there so plainly expressed , and to represent and set down our arguing as if there had been no such matter ; this indeed may make way for himself to give answer to us with ease , but whether it be candid and faire thus to deale , i leave it to himself , and the godly wise to consider . in the same pag. 482. he alledgeth the answer pag. 26. and sets down these words as ours , viz. the graecians and hebrews made not two churches , but one congregation ; they called the multitude of the disciples together , vers . 2. answ . here againe our words are set down unperfectly : for the question being , whether those graecians and hebrews , act. 6. were two severall congregation in one church , or both but one congregation , we for this latter do not onely alledge that one particular which mr. rutherford mentioneth , that the apostles called the multitude of the disciples together , vers . 2. but moreover that this multitude must look out seven men duely qualified , whom they might appoint over that businesse , v. 3. and that the saying pleased this whole multitude , and that they thereupon chose seven who are there named v. 5. and set them before the apostles , v. 6. who laid their hands on them : ibid. in all which , say we , there is no hint of two congregations , one of graecians and another of hebrews , but all the businesse of chusing and ordeyning these deacons , seems to be transacted and done in one congregation . for when the text saith that the apostles called the multitude of the disciples unto them , and made a speech to this multitude being assembled , and the whole multitude did hear what the apostles spake , and well liked the same , and thereupon joyntly concurred in one act of chusing seven , and presenting them being chosen before the apostles , it seems to me more rationall to look at these things as done in one congregation , then to imagine there were two , one of graecians another of hebrews : for of two congregations wherein this choise of deacons should be made , the text for ought i perceive doth not afford the least hint . but let us hear mr. rutherford his answer . that the chiefe , saith he , of both graecians and hebrews were contained in one , to give their consent to the admission of the deacons , i conceive . answ . the chief are not so much as once mentioned in the story : but contrarily the text expressely mentioneth the multitude , vers . 2. and the whole multitude , vers . 5. now to exclude the multitude , whom the text doth expresly mention , and to attribute the assembling and acting only to the chiefe , of whom the holy ghost speaks not one word , this ( to say no more ) seems a violent forcing of the text . and if somthing had not forced him to it , i think he would not have used it ; for elswhere ( viz. p. 495 , 496. ) he alledgeth this very scripture , and that three severall times , within the space of a doozen or sixteen lines , to prove that the people , yea the multitude are to have the choise of officers ; and saith he , if it please not the whol multitude , act. 6. vers . 5. it is not a choise . and in pag. 190. he tells us , that the multitude act. 6. are directed to choose out seven men , as being best acquainted with them ; and that accordingly they did look out seven men and chose them . in which places we see he can attribute this choise to the whole multitude , without any mention of the chief , or so much as the least intimation of the action to be performed by them , the multitude being excluded or absent ; yea , he gives a reason of this choise , which will reach the multitude , and not the chief only , except we shall say , that the chief only were acquainted with these seven : whereas in the place we have in hand , he would exclude the multitude , and ascribe the action to the chiefe onely . but that all the thousands of the church of jerusalem were here as in one ordinary congregation , i judge unpossible . answ . for asmuch as the text tells us that the whole multitude of the disciples were gathered together to act as here is recorded about the election of deacons , therefore we judge that it was not unpossible for them so to do ; for how should we judge the thing unpossible , except we would judge the words of god to be unpossible to be true ? besides , how many soever they were the text tels us act. 2. 46. that they continued daily with one accord in the temple : now temples we know there were none but one ; and therefore that they should all assemble in one congregation , we dare not judge a matter unpossible , least in so judging we should seem to question the truth of gods testimony . chap. xxi . whether congregations may be excommunicated by classes and synods , by vertue of those words , matt. 18. tell the church , as containing a rule and remedy for all offences , or at the least a church remedy , for the officers of churches , and churchmembers ? and if yea , whether it would not follow , that a nationall church must have the benefit of this remedy as well as others , and so have no independency of jurisdiction within it self , but be subject to the jurisdiction of generall councels , which yet mr. rutherford doth deny ? in the same p. 482. he excepteth against another passage in the answer p. 27 , 28. where he sets down these as our words , viz. if our argument be good , if thy brother offend and refuse to submit , tell the church , because christs remedy must be as large as the disease ; then if a nationall church offend , you are to complain to an higher church above a nationall church ; and because offences may arise between christians and indians , you may complain of an indian to the church : and then he subjoyneth his answer . answ . yet againe our words are so imperfectly related , as that our scope and intent doth not sufficiently appear to his reader . i must therefore for the readers understanding , relate the passage according to the true and plain meaning thereof . the question between reverend mr. herle and us being this , whether congregations must depend on the government of synods , and this reason being brought for the affirmative , that christs remedy , matth. 18. tell the church , must be as large as the maladie , offence ; if therefore there arise offences between congregations , there must be a church of synods above congregations , and those synods must judge and redresse those offences : to this we there answer that all offences do not fall within the compasse of this rule and remedy , tell the church ; and so no dependency of congregation upon the jurisdiction of synods can be sufficiently proved by this text . first of all , we instance in the offences of nationall churches , of which we suppose our brother will not say that they fall within the compasse of our saviours rule , tell the church , for then the independency of nationall churches and nationall synods is overthrown , as well as the congregations ; which we suppose he will not grant ; and yet it cannot be avoided if his reason for the dependency of congregations upon synods do stand firm . and next of all we instance in the offences of turks and indians and other heathens , who may offend christians and yet are not to be complained of to the church , the apostle expressely teaching the contrary , 1 col. 5. this being the scope of that passage in the answer , which here mr. rutherford , excepteth against , let us now hear what it is , which he saith thereto . because , saith he , ordinary communion faileth when you go higher then a nationall church , and christs way supposeth art ordinary communion , as is cleare , if thy brother offend , &c therefore i deny that this remedy is needfull in any church above a nationall church . answ . 1. if this remedy be not needfull in any church above a nationall , then the rule doth not universally hold true , that the remedy , complaint to the church , must be as large as the malady , offence : and so our purpose is gained ; for our purpose in that place is to prove this very thing , by this same instance of the offence of a nationall church ; wherein mr. rutherford we see doth come over to us , and affirms the same that we do . to what end therefore was it to make shew of removing or weakening what he had said , sith when it comes to the issue , he plainly concurs with us ? for by this means our tenent is not confuted , but confirmed with his attest thereto . 2. though here he saith , this remedy is not needfull in any church above a nationall , yet i am mistaken , if elsewhere he speak not otherwise . for in pag. 311. prepounding this objection , viz. christ here spe●keth of a present and constant removall of scandalls — a catholike councell of the whole visible church is farre of , and cannot be had , he returneth this for answer thereto : that christ , saith he , speaketh of a present and constant remedy only , and of no remedy against the scandall of whole churches , is denyed . he speaketh of all remedyes to gain any offenders , persons or churches . and in pag. 322. he saith , christ giveth an instance only in an offending brother ; but the doctrine is for the curing of an offending church also , and for all persons to be gained , thou hast gained thy brother : and saith he , we are to gain churches , as we are not to offend churches : 1 cor. 10. 32. again in his second pag. 332. speaking of five s●rts of synods , of which he cals the fifth the generall and oecuminick councell , he saith , that all these differ not in essence but in degrees , and what word of god , as matth 18. 16 , 17. proves the lawfulnes of one , is for the lawfulnesse of all the five sorts of synods . lastly , nothing can be more plain then those words pag. 39. this of our saviour , tell the church , is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to a catholike councell : ( the same is also to be seen in the peaceable plea p. 86. ) in all which sayings , he plainly understands the text we have in hand , to speak of a remedy , for all that are to be gained , yea a remedy for the offences of all persons and churches that may give offence ; which churches he saith may do , and expresly affirms that it is to be applyed to generall councels , and that necessarily : and how these things do agree , with the place in hind , where he saith , he denyes the remedie is needfull in any church above a nationall , let the wise and himself judge . for , for my part , except there be some difference between necessary and needfull , the sayings to me do seem inconsistent , one affirming the place is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to generall councells ; and the other denying that the remedy there mentioned is needfull in any church above a nationall 2. christs remedy , saith he , is a church remedy for offences among the brethren , and members of the visible church . and indians are nomembers of the visible church , and so being without they cannot be judged , 1 cor. 5. 12. answ . that indians cannot be judged by the church is very true , but nothing against us : for the very same that here is said by mr. rutherford , was said by us before , in the place which himself doth alledge , where we also brought the very same text of scripture which himself doth bring . now why should these things be brought as a confutation of us , which are nothing but a reception of that which we had delivered afore as our own judgement ? may not his reader be induced hereby to think that we had spoken otherwise ? but to let this passe . if indians cannot be judged by the church , then still our purpose is gained ; for by this it appeareth that an offence may be committed , where christs remedy , tell the church , may not be applyed for the redresse thereof ; and so that universall proposition , christs remedy is as large as the maladie , and where an offence may be committed , there to tell the church , is the remedy for the redresse of the same , which our brethren do lay as the foundation on which to build the jurisdiction of classes and synods , the universality , i say , of this proposition is utterly overthrown by this instance of indians ; and so that scripture , matth. 18. appears to be too weak a bottome , to bear the building which our brethren would erect upon it . nor is the matter much amended by that which our brother here brings for the helping and clearing of it , that christs remedy is a church remedy for offences among brethren members of the visible church . for let this be granted , as i know none that denies it , yet still the question remains , what is that church to which our saviour here gives power to remove and redresse scandals by excommunicating the offenders ? we conceive this church is only the particular congregation , and its presbytery ; and our brethren think it is also the classes and synods : but this apprehension of theirs is not confirmed by saying our saviours remedy is a church remedy for offences amongst members of the church , inasmuch as the members of a nationall church , as such are members of the visible church in our brethrens judgement , and yet our brother holds here is nor remedy prescribed for a delinquent nationall church . and if he can so understand this church remedy , as that for all this , the nationall church must not partake thereof , so as to be censured and excommunicated by any church above it , why may not others understand it so , as that synods and classes , yea and congregations too be exempted from the jurisdiction of churches ? for my part , i know no reason , but if the congregation be lyable to the censure of classes and synods by this scripture ; because our saviours remedy is a church remedy , by the same reason the classes and synods must be lyable to censure also ; yea , and the nationall church likewise , because this reason is applyable to all these as well as to the congregation . so that this notion of a church remedy doth not help his cause at all , nor hurt ours , any more then it hurts himself . if this reasoning be good , it is a church remedy , therefore the congregationall church must be lyable to censure for their offences , then this reasoning is as good , it is a church remedy , therefore the classes , synods , yea and the nationall church must be lyable to censure for their offences : but this latter at least , for the nationall church , our brother speaks against , and therefore he may not presse nor urge the former . if he or other shall say , that this scripture contains a remedy even for a nationall church , then it will follow that the jurisdiction of a nationall church is not independent , but depends upon the oecumenicall : but this our brother cannot say , unlesse he will gainsay himself , because he hath already said the contrary , and seriously protested it w●●h a verily , that verily be cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandalls can be in a generall councell : onely a meer doctrinall power in all the power that he can see in such a councell , pag. 482. so that let him hold to what he hath thus seriously protested , and this rule of christ affords no remedy by way of censure for the scandalls of a nationall church . besides , if the jurisdiction of a generall councell be established by our saviour in this or other scriptures , then it will not only follow that the independent jurisdiction of nationall churches ; yea , and much more of classes and synods is overth●●wn , which i suppose our brethren will not grant , but moreover it will follow that christ hath not sufficiently provided church remedies for redressing scandal●s of church members : the reason of the consequence is , because all other jurisdictions being subordinate one to an●ther , and all of them under the jurisdiction of the generall councell , which alone is supream , there may therefore in all of them be appeals from the inferiour to the higher judicatories , till at the last ●atters and causes be transmitted from them all to the generall councell ; and so by this means matters shall or may never be ended , nor scandalls remedied , till a generall councell shall effect the same ; which generall councels all know are rare , and difficult to be attain● 〈◊〉 and therefore there were small sufficiency in our saviours remedy , if matters may or must depend till generall councels shall be assembled for the hearing and determining thereof , and may not be ended sconer . therefore we cannot see that this rule , nor any other , establisheth the jurisdiction of generall cou●cels ; and then nationall churches can have no benefit of our saviours remedy of , telling the church ; no more then the churches , which are congregationall ; and so whether is the saying universally true , that where there may be offence committed , there our saviours remedy of telling the church , may be applyed for the redresse thereof , nor doth this saying hold , being narrowed according to mr. rutherfords minde , who would have it understood onely of a church remedy , for the offences of church members . for we see there may be offences in churches , according to our brethrens judgement , which cannot be redressed by the help and remedy of this rule . chap. xxii . when the supream magistrate is a professed curing to religion , whether then it be likely and usuall that the greater part of the people are sincerely religious : and whether when the greater part are enemies with their magistrates , it be then the duty of a few that are sincere , to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enter into a nationall covenant , and also to enjoyn the same unto that greater part . pag . 483. we say , that if the magistrate be an enemy to religion , may not the church without him conveen and renew a covenant with god ? mr. mather and mr. tompsons answer p. 29. that if the supream magistrate be an enemy to religion , it is not like , but most or many of the people will be of the same minde : regis ad exemplum totus — and then the 〈◊〉 in the land with not be able to beare the name of the land or nation , but of a small part thereof , not can it be well contained how they should assemble in a nationall synod , for that or any other purpose , when the magistrate is a professed enemy , nor doth god require it at their hands . answ . the question between mr. hefle and us , as it is spoken to , by us , in this passage , is still about the meaning of our saviours words , tell the church : which will plainly appear to him that shall look upon mr. herles treatise and our answer , and compare them together . and though we speak somthing of the churches renewing a a covenant with god , when the magistrate is an enemy to religion , yet the question lyes not meerly so and no further ; but first , this church is called the land or the whole church therein , or the whole number of beleevers . secondly , the thing inquired into concerning this church , is whether they have not power to enjoyn a solemn renewall of the covenant . in answer whereto we first of all say , that in case the magistrate be an enemy to religion , the beleevers in the land are not like to be so many , as that they should bear the name of the land or nation , but of a small part therein . second , that in such case , it is not like they can have such liberty as safely to meet in such great assemblies as nationall synods : and hereupon we conclude that renewing of covenant and enjoyning the same in national synods , being not in the power of som few beleevers in a land , is not then required at their hands . this being said for clearing the scope and summe of that passage in the answer , let us now hear what mr. rutherford saith thereto . this saith he , is a weak answer . answ . sat magistrabiter : would it not do well first to disprove and confute , and then to censure , rather then to censure first ? but if it be so weak , it will be more easie to overthrow it : let us hear therefore why it is so weak . the christians under nero were not like their prince : and it s not like , but sincere christians will be sincere christians and professe truth , even when the magistrate is an enemy . answ . and what of this ? doth this strongly overthrow that saying , which was censured for so weak ? if sincere christians be sincere christians , when the magistrate is an enemy , suppose as bad as nero , doth it follow thereupon , that in such times the sincere christians will be so many in number as to bear the names of the land or nation , where they are , ( for there lyes the question ) and that it is not like to be otherwise ? i suppose no man can justly affirm it . for were they so many in england in the dayes of queen mary ? were they so many in scotland in the dayes of popish princes , afore the reformation ? are they so many in spain , in italy , in turkey at this day ? doth not the scripture say , that when rehoboam , forsook the lord , all israel did the same with him ? 2 chron. 12. 1. and that ieroboam did not only sinne , but made israel to sinne ? and that when a ruler hearkneth to lyes , all his servants are wicked , prov. 29. vers . 12. which sayings and many more that might be alledged , besides common experience do abundantly witnesse , that when the supream magistrate is an enemy to religion , often times ( if not alwayes ▪ ) sincere beleevers in those dayes are the smaller part of that land . if m. rutherford can prove this apprehension weak , he must then prove the contradictory to be true , viz. that when the supream magistrate is an enemy to religion , it is not like that many of the people will be of the magistrates mind , but contrarily the greatest part of the land will be sincere beleevers , though the magistrate be an enemy . and when he hath confirmed this position which strong and convincing proofes ; he may then more freely take his liberty to condemne the other for weak : in the mean time , i think it were weaknesse in us to depart from this apprehension without some better grounds then yet are given to discover the weaknesse of it . 2. saith he , if your meaning be , it cannot be conceived how they should assemble in a nationall assembly , when the magistrate is an enemy , because it is not safe for feare of persecution , then you say nothing to the argument , because the argument is drawn from a duty . answ . are those things duties , which are in nature impossible ? if not , how is it a duty of a few beleevers in a land ( for when the magistrate is a professed enemy , i doe still conceive the beleevers in that land to be but few , a small part of the land ) how is it a duty , i say , for these few beleevers , in a land to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enjoyn a nationall covenant , to be entered into , not onely by themselves , which are but a few in comparison , but also by the rest of the land which are farre the greater number ? if this be a duty , it is more then i yet understand ? suppose it be their duty to enter into covenant with god for their own part ; suppose also it were the duty of others to doe the like , yet when the greater part will not so doe , but are enemies to the truth of god like their magistrates , is it neverthelesse a duty of this smaller number to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enjoyne a solemn covenant to be taken by the land ? i mean not onely by themselves ; but also by others , who are farre more in number then they ? do they fall short of their duty , if they do not thus assemble , and impose the covenant ? in the dayes of ieroboam , when the generality of the land walked after his wicked commandement , hos . 5. 11. who made israel to sin , yet then there were some in israel who retained their integrity , and set their hearts to seek the lord , who also for that end came to ierusalem , to sacrifice to the lord god of their fathers , 2 chron. 11. v. 16. but i doe not remember that these few that were sincere in worship , did ever come together in a nationall assembly in israel , to renew the covenant with god , and to enjoyn the same to that great multitude of the backslyding israelites , nor that such a duty was required of them , nor that they are blamed by 〈◊〉 lord , nor any of his prophets for the neglect thereof . and the case we have in stand is the same . if you mean that because the princes power is against the synodicall meeting , this is nothing against the power of the synods that christ hath given to his church . answ . we mean as we have said , that those few beleevers in a land , being overpowered with the prince and people that are enemies , therefore this assembling of those few in a nationall synod , and there enjoyning a nationall covenant is now not in their power , and so not required at their hands . if your meaning be that , it is not lawfull to them to conveen in a nationall synod to renew a covenant with god , against the supreame magistrates will ; i hope you minde no such thing . answ . if it be our meaning , how can it be hoped that we do not mind it ? can our ●●●●ing be one thing , and our mind another ? but for his satisfaction and resolution , 〈◊〉 plain answer is this , that we neither had mind nor meaning to medle at all with that question ; whether churches may assemble in nationall synods against the supreame magistrates will. for we did not think that mr. herles treatise did lead us thereunto : 〈…〉 such a matter . nor am i willing at this time to turn aside to the same , but to keep close to my scope and ayme , which is to consider of mr. rutherford his exceptions against the answer . and therefore for his discourse , which here he fals upon , maintaining at large against malignants , and namely against tho : fuller , that the reformation begun in scotland and prosecuted in england , against the kings will is lawful● and warrantable by the word● this discourse , i say , being altogether concerning others , and not us ; i will therefore passe it over , and come to that wherein our selves are concerned . chap. xxiii . whether the word church be not given to a single congregation , and whether a congregation be a company or church , meeting only for word and sacraments , and not for any other spirituall duties : and whether the divers duties , 1. of word and sacraments . 2. of discipline , &c. must needs argue divers churches . pag . 489. the name church , 1 cor. 14. 4 , 5 , 35. 27 , 28. is plainly given to that company that did assemble and come together for performance of spirituall duties , and for the exercise of spirituall gifts , as act. 14. 27. and 11. 26. and 15. 4. 22. 30. and 1 cor. 11. 18 , 20 , 22 , 23 , 3 john 6. which places do abundantly shew , that a company gathered together in one place , is called by the name of a church , as centhera , rom. 16. 1. which could not contain many congregations , being but the part of corinth . and for this passage he alledgeth the answer . pag. 32. answ . mr. herle having said , that the scripture never useth the word church for a single congregation , unlesse happily , 1 cor. 14. and that many congregations in one province or city are frequently called by the name of a church , we in answer to the former of these doe give many instances , p. 31 , 32. where a single c●●●regation is called by the name of a church , not onely in 1 cor. 14. which mr. herle acknowledgeth ( though with a perhaps ) but also in sundry other scriptures , which here mr. rutherford quoteth . now let us heare his answer to this passage . wee seek no more , saith he . answ . are we then agreed , that in scripture language the word church is sundry times given to a single congregation ? if so , then for this point the answer is not confuted but confirmed . if it be called a church which conveeneth for performance of spirituall duties , as some of your places doe well prove , ergo , no assembly should have the name of church , but such as assemble for word and sacraments , this now you cann●t affirm and it followeth not . answ . if this follow not , what needs it ? we never affirmed it , and our purpose that the word church is given in scripture to a single congregation , is sufficiently gained without it . the church spoken of matth. 18. is not assembled to word and sacraments , but to binde and loose : the meeting 1 cor. 5. is not for word and sacraments , but to deliver to satan ; the word church act. 14. 27. is not an assembly for word and sacraments , but to hear how god hath opened the doore of faith unto the gentiles . — if to be received of the church , act. 15. 4. be matter of word and sacraments , let all judge : if to send a decree of a synod , act. 15. 22. be the act of a church assembled for word and sacraments , let the world judge . answ . reverend sir , keep to the point , we never said that discipline , and all other acts , whether performed by a church , are word and sacraments : and therefore there was no need to prove they are not , and then to triumph as in a great victory : the thing in question is this , whether the name or word church , be given in scripture to a single congregation : and if this be proved ( as the instances given , i hope , do prove it sufficienly ) then it matters not what that particular spirituall church action is , for which they do meet : for whether it be that they meet for word and sacraments alone ; or whether it be for the word and prayer alone , and not at that time for sacraments at all , or whether it be for discipline , or for any other church duty , yet still if they come together into one place , be it for all or for any of these ends , they are then a congregation , ( for what is a congregation but a company so assembled in one place ) and so our tenet stands good , and our purpose is gained : for if they that come together into one place for church actions and ends , be called in scripture by the name of a church , then the word church is given to a company that so came together ; and such a company being a congregation , it follows that the word church is used for a congregation . what this congregation doth when they are come together , is not the question : but if a congregation coming together for church duties be in scripture called a church , we have our intent . if the word church , be a meeting of persons assembled to one place for spirituall duties , sometimes for word and sacraments onely , sometimes for acts of jurisdiction onely , then is the word church by our brethrens argument taken both for the congregation , and for the elders of one , or of divers churches , and so we have our intent . answ . let the antecedent be granted , yet the consequence is denied : for the word church may be a meeting assembled , sometimes for word and sacraments onely , and sometimes for acts of jurisdiction only , and i adde , sometimes for the word and prayer only , without exercise of jurisdiction or sacrament , and somtimes for some other act or acts , then any of these that are named , and yet for all this , it may not be taken for the elders alone of one church , and much lesse for the elders of divers churches ; the reason is , because all these acts may be performed by the congregation assembling sometimes for one of them , and sometimes for another . and therefore your intent is not yet attained ; who would have the word church to be taken somtimes for the congregation , and sometimes for the presbyters or elders alone ? we desire our brethren to prove ( which they must if they oppose our principles ) that the word church is never taken for the eldership alore , in all the word of god. answ . must we prove a negative : and is that saying , affirmanti incumbit ●●us probandi , now become unreasonable , unnecessary , or of no force ? for my part i am still of the mind , that he that affirms , must in equity and reason prove what he affirms . besides for our selves we have this to say further , that if we prove what we undertook , we have done as much as can in reason be required of us , though we do not prove this that mr. rutherford would impose upon us : and what was that which we undertook to prove ? nothing in this place , but onely this , that the word church is taken for a congregation , in other scriptures besides , 1 cor. 14. and this we have performed and proved already . mr. rutherford himself allowing some of our proofs for good : and therefore having performed this point , it is more then needs to be required of us , to prove another also , which we never undertook to prove , as being quite besides our question , which we were and still are desirous to keep close unto , and not to wonder or be diverted from it by any means . whereas our brethren say , a company gathered into one place ( which is nothing else but a congregation ) are called by the name of a church , i answer such a company is only ( i suppose this is misprinted , for is not onely ) called by the name of a church , for a company meeting for discipline only , is a church also . answ . if a company gathered into one place , which is a congregation , be called by the name of a church , this is as much as we desire : for our tenent is herein expresly granted to be true : if a company meeting for discipline onely be a church also , yet as long as the former is not denyed , the adding of this other doth no hurt to us at all . it is false that a company gathered into one place , are nothing else but a congregation . answ . bona verba quaso : we had thought that as a company assembled , is an assembly , a company met , is a meeting , a company convocated , a convocation ; so a company gathered together or congregated , had been a congregation : but this is peremptorily now condemned as false : yet let us hear why . as you take the word congregation : for so your congregation is an assembly of men and women meeting for word and sacraments , with the elders of the church . answ . and what if they meet for prayer also , what if for the word and prayer without sacraments , for this or that time ? what if they meet for the admission of members also , or for censuring delinquents ? can mr. rutherford prove that either of us , i mean either mr. tompson or my self , or indeed any man else of that judgement , which he opposeth , have denyed an assembly meeting for such ends , as these to be a congregation ? i suppose he cannot : and therefore it was not well done to impute unto us such a sence of the word congregation , as we never spake nor thought of , and then to say , it is false that a company gathered into one place is a congregation , as that word is taken by us . i appeale to the judgement of our reverend brethren , if the church , matth. 18. assembled to to bind and loose , if the church assembled , 1 corin. 5. to deliver to satan , ( and sundry others are there named to the like purpose ) be a congregationall church assembled for word and sacraments . answ . if the word and sacraments be not mentioned in the places alledged , but other actions and duties , must it needs follow that the churches spoken of in these places did assemble for word and sacraments ? may not one and the same church assemble for diverse ends and actions ? yea , possibly for diverse upon one day ? at the least wise it cannot be denyed , but at severall times of assembling a church may attend to diverse duties and actions , and yet still be one and the same congregation or church , at one time which they were at another . or otherwise we must say ( which were a very unwise saying ) that a church meeting for diverse actions to be performed upon one day , as the word , prayer , psalms , sacraments , &c. is not the same church is one of these actions , that it was in another , but is one church when they are at prayer , another when they are singing psalms , another when they are in exercise of the word or sacraments , &c. or if they meet one day , for word and sacraments , and another day for word and prayer without sacraments , that n●w they are diverse churches , and not the same upon one of these dayes , that they were upon another , the nature and kind of their church being altered according to the severall duties wherein they are exercised . this arguing i suppose mr. rutherford , would not own for good , and yet for ought i see , it is no worse , but the very same with that which himself doth here use , who because the church mentioned matth. 18. 1 corinth . 5. and other places by him named , is said to meet for discipline or other duties , would thereupon have it thought , that the church mentioned in those places was not a church that did ever meet for word and sacraments , but was some other church of another kinde : which arguing may be good , if these which i have here above expressed be good , but otherwise i conceive it cannot stand . chap. xxiv . whether those children of israel , numb . 8. 10. who laid hands on the levites , were elders by office , and as so considered , did lay on their hands . and whether this scripture do not prove that where there are no elders to be had , there some principall members , though not elders by office , may impose hands on church officers . the children of israel which were not the church officers laid hands on the levites , numb . 8. 10. therefore when a church hath no elders , the people may conferre ordination , and it is not to be tyed to the presbyters only : and for this be alledgeth the answer . pag. 46. and then he addeth , that other of our brethren say , ordination is but accidentall to a ministers calling , and may be wanting if the people shall chuse , in defect of elders , pag. 491. answ . this latter clause should not have been added , as deserving a confutation , except our brother would confute himself : for as we heard afore , himself doth plainly affirm pag. 186 , 187. that both are true pastors , those who have no call , but the peoples election , and those who have ordination by pastors ; and that election by the people only may stand for ordination , where there be no pastors at all : which if it be so ; why should the same thing in effect when it is holden by others , be here inserted in an objection as worthy to be spoken against , when himself doth cast the very same ? it is marvell that our reverend brother should thus go on in representing our words and mind amisse : for as here he sets down the objection under our name , some of our words are changed and altered , others being substituted in their place , some are wholly suppressed as if there had been none such , and others are added as 〈◊〉 which never came from us : of the first sort , are those of the peoples conferring ordination ; wheras our words are not so , but that the people may impose or lay on hands . now between these two himself pag. 492. doth make a great difference , even as much as between the authoritative calling of a minister , and a rite annexed to that calling : and further saith , that though he think imposition of hand● not so essentiall perhaps , at that a minister can be no minister without it , yet of ordination he thinks otherwise , and if he make so great a difference between imposition of hand● and ordination , why should our words be forsaken which import the lesser matter in his judgement , and those other which he accounts do import much more , be substituted in the room ? was this to burden our opinion or apprehension with a greater odium then our words in his own judgement will beare ? or was it to make his confutation of us more easie , then it would have been , if our own words had been retained and kept ? what ever was the cause hereof , we cannot but think it had been better if it had been otherwise . for omitting and suppressing some words of ours ( which was the second particular ) i alledge those of the time and places where elders cannot co●veniently be borrowed from any other church : the whole passage is this : viz. by which , scripture , ( to wit num. 8. 10. ) thus much is manifest , that when a ch●rch hath no elders , but the first elders themselves are to be ordained , and this at such times and in such places , where elders cannot conveniently be borrowed from any other churches , in such case imposition of hands may lawfully be performed by some principall men of the congregation , although they be not elders by office : in which place , these words , at such times ●nd in such places , &c. though they contain a great part of the case , wherein we think imposition of hands may be performed by non-elders , yet they are wholy concealed by mr. rutherford , as if there had been none such ; for what purpose , himselfe best knows . but this is apparent , that by his concealment or omission , the way is made more easie and the ground more rati●n●ll for that passage of his in the following page , where he saith , what if there be no elders in a single congregation ? it will not follow therefore the people are to lay on hands , except saith he , there were no elders in the land , or nationall church to lay on hands . now had our words been delivered and set down by him as they came from us , this speech and passage of his would have been uselesse , and apparently brought in without cause : for to what purpose should he bring in this exception , saying , except there be no elders in the land &c. when our selves had prevented him in this , by putting such an exception expresly into the prohibition , which we deduce and gather from that scripture of numb . 8. 10. sure this had not needed , but might have been spared , if our words had been fully related : but by this omission and concealement , his own speech hath more appearance of ground and reason in it , then otherwise it would have had , and our apprehension doth not appear to his reader as indeed it is , nor as himself received it from us in that our answer . which we have reason to take somwhat unkindly from him , and the rather because it is not only once , but twise at the least , that we have thus expressed our selves in that answer : once in the words which i have here above repeated and transcribed , and again in pag. 49. where speaking again of this same scripture , numb . 8. v. 10. we say thus , that we have shewed from that scripture , that if there be no elders as at the first , nor any that can conveniently be gotten from other churches , then imposition of hands may lawfully be performed by others : neverthelesse though we have thus expressed our selves , once and a second time , yet m. rutherford doth not once give notice hereof unto his reader , for ought that i can find ; but still passing by these words of borrowing elders from other churches , doth take advantage of the want thereof , which indeed are not wanting in our churches , which he deals against , but twise at the least are plainly expressed therein , and would not have been wanting in this passage , which here he sets down as ours , if himself had not concealed and suppressed the same . now to leave out those words of ours , which we have plainly expressed two severall times at the least , and then to make advantage for himselfe against us for want thereof , whether this be not such measure as we have cause to take unkindly , let himself and others consider . the third particular of adding words which never came from us , i will briefly passe over , because it is of lesse moment , as not so much misrepresenting our meaning ; yet i conceive those words , it ( by ordination ) is not to be tyed to the presbytery alone , which here are presented to the reader as ours , are not at all to be found in our writing : but i will not insist on this , but come to consider of his answer . there is not , saith he , a place in all the word of god , where people conser●e ordination to the pastors of the new testament , therefore our brethren flee to the old testament to prove it from the levites , who received imposition of bands from the children of israel . answ . we have given a reason , why no such scripture can be expected in the new testament , viz. because in those times elders were not wanting ; for there were the apostles and apostolike men , who were elders in all churches : and say we , we do willingly grant , that where elders are not wanting , imposition of hands is to be performed by the elders : ans . p. 49. now for our brethren to require of us an example of imposition of hands performed without elders in the apostles times , in which times there were elders to be had , this we think to be unreasonable , first it is our opinion , that when elders are to be had , imposition of hands is not to be performed without those elders , but by them . moreover , if it be such a disparagement to our cause , that the scripture of the new testament affords no example of imposition of hands by the people , how will mr. rutherford free his own way from another objection , which we think as sore and weighty against the same , as this which they think of so much weight against us ? the objection i mean is this , that there is not any place in all the scripture of the new testament , where ordinary pastors or elders imposed hands on ordinary pastors or elders ; but all the examples in scripture concerning this matter are such , where either the persons imposing , or the persons on whom hands were imposed , or both , were officers of extraordinary note and degree , such as now are not extant in the church , but are ceased long again : not that i deny , but an argument may be taken from those examples for imposition of hands in these dayes : but the thing i stand upon is this , that no example can be given from scripture directly parallel , to the way which our brethren in these dayes do practise and allow , but some dissonancy will be found therein : from their way as well ( and perhaps as much ) as from the way of imposition of hands performed by the people in some cases : let them tell us of act. 6. v. 6. and 14. 23. and 1. tim. 5. 22. and we answer the persons imposing hands in those places were apostles and evangelists , such as our brethren are not , nor do so account themselves . let them name act. 13. 3. and 1 tim. 4. 14. and we answer , the persons on whom hands were there laid were the like , even apostles and evangelists , whatever the imposers were , and therefore neither will these places perfectly suit the case ▪ so that if we could give no example in the new testament of imposition of hands performed in some cases by the people , we think mr. rutherford and out brethren of his way might be favourable to us for their own sake . yet for the justification of our way , and for further answer to this passage of mr. rutherford , we have this to say further , that an example in the old testament of a practise not abolished in the new as ceremoniall , typicall , or of some peculiar reason specially concerning those times and peoples , but of morall equity and reason ; such an example we think a sufficient warrant unto us , for the like practise upon the like occasion in these dayes : this i thinke mr rutherford must acknowledge , for else he shall loose many arguments which he frequently useth in this treatise , from the example of asa , hezekiah , josiah , and others in the old testament , for the proving of things to be practised in the new : and else himself and we all shall loose the argument for pedobaptisme which is taken from circumcision . yea , and which is more , if it were not thus , the apostles arguing would not be strong , who do frequently argue from the examples of the old testament to confirm and prove truth and vertue , and to reprove and to condemn the contra●y in the new : to instance in no more but 1 cor. 9. 10. 2. heb. 3. 24. which examples , together with that saying , rom. 15. 4. whatsoever was written in former time , was written for our learning ; and many more that might be alledged , do abundantly and plainly prove the point in hand : and therefore mr. rutherford should bear with us , if we somtimes argue from examples of the old testament . as for that which followeth , where he saith , but our brethren hold that the calling of the levites and of the pastors of the new testament are different , as the officers and churches of the jewish and christian churches are different ; the answer is , that i do not remember that we have spoken one word of this matter , either one way or other ; nor doth he mention any place where we have spoken ought of these things . and for the thing it selfe , though many differences may be assigned between the levites and pastors of the new testament , and between the jewish and christian churches , yet i know no such difference between them , but that in things which are of generall and common nature concerning them both , in those we may lawfully argue from them and their times , unto our selves and our times . if mr. rutherford know we have given any such difference as will not suffer us thus to argue , when he shall expresse the same , we may consider further thereof . our brethren grant pag. 49. that it wanteth all example in the new testament that the people lay on hands . answ . and we have also in the same pag. 49. rendred the reason hereof , viz. because elders then were not wanting : why then did not our brothers ingenuity so farre prevaile with him as to mention this , when he mentioned the other ? however yet this he may be pleased to observe , that as we grant the thing he speaks of , so themselves , i think must grant also , that it wanteth all example in the new testament , where ordinary elders do impose hands on ordinary elders : for my part i remember none , nor do i remember that themselves have yet produced any . these who laid on hands on the levites numb . 8. were elders , and our brethren say it is like they were ; but 1. they did not as elders : 2. but as representing the people ; not as elders civill , for that belonged to aaron and his sonnes , levit. 8. else it will follow that where a church hath no magistrates to lay on hands , there the church may doe it : nor did they lay on hands as ecclesiasticall elders , because what these which laid on hands did , they did as from the congregation : for 1. these levites were taken in stead of the first born of israel , and not instead of the first born of the elders only , numb . 3. 40 , 41. 2 they were presented to the lord as an offering of the children of israel , not of the elders onely . 3. when the multitude brought an oblation , the elders put their hands on the heads of the sacrifice , levit. 4. 15. instead of all the multitude . answ . in relating this passage , our meaning is exceedingly mistaken , and both our meaning and our words represented farre amisse unto the reader : the particulars which in this respect may be excepted against , are such as these . 1. that reporting us to say , it is like they who laid on hands were elders , he there breaks off the speech ; and so suppresseth that which follows ; wherein we first of all do give an explication in what respect they might be said to be elders , viz. as being the chiefe and principall members of the congregation ; and next of all we do adde , that neverthelesse therein example doth prove the point , if two things be considered which there we do expresse . but both these particulars , i mean , both the explication and the addition or exception , are wholly suppressed by mr. rutherford , and so the concession ; it is like they were elders , is left standing alone by it selfe . 2. he reports us to say , they did it not as elders civill : for that belonged to aaron and his sons ; wherein he fathers on us a palpable errour , of accounting aaron , and his sonnes to be elders civill , or magistrates , which never came into our thoughts : nay it was so farre from us that we plainly said the contrary , in that very place , to wit , that they were elders ecclesiasticall . our words are these , if they , ( that is , the children of israel ) did it as elders , then either as elders and governours ecclesiasticall , or as civill governours : but not the first , for that charge belonged to aaron and his sonnes : levit. 8. and these levites now ordained . in which words we plainly ascribe to aaron and his sonnes the charge of elders and governours ecclesiasticall , but not of civill governours , as mr. rutherford , is pleased to report . 3. in these words , else it will follow , that where a church hath no magistrates to lay on hands , there the church may do it ; our words are so miserably mangled , that no tolerable sence can appeare : for here is expressed an inference or consequence , that must follow , and yet no ground or antecedent at all from which it should follow , which is to represent us to the world as men that were loesi cerebro . for men that were in their right wits , i conceive , would scarcely ever argue in this fashion , as here we are reported to do : but our words are these , if the second be said , viz. that the children of israel did lay on hands as civill governours , then it will follow that civill magistrates , though no church-officers may impose hands in ordination of church-officers , and so the point is gained : ( viz. that church-officers may be ordained by those that are no church-officers ) which we do further manifest in the following words in this manner : if the magistrate may doe it , then it will follow that a church that hath no magistrate may perform this action by other the fittest instrument● she hath ; for which we there give this ground , for that this is not a work properly tyed to the magistrates office , because then the church in the apostles times wanting magistrates , could not have had officers ; the contrary whereof we say is manifest in the scriptures , act. 14. 13. tit. 1. 5. this is our manner of arguing in the place alledged , which is farre different from that which mr. rutherford reporteth as ours . 4. whereas he reports us to say , nor did they lay on hands as ecclesiasticall elders , because what these which lay on hands did , they did as from the congregation ; in this he also reports us to speak quite besides our plain meaning and expresse words . for whereas , he so sets down this sentence , as that the latter clause or branch therein is made the reason of the former ; the truth is this , that these clauses in the answer , have no dependance the one upon the other at all ; but the former hath another reason given for it , which here is not mentioned , and the latter which is here mentioned as the reason of the former is not so mentioned by us , but for another end and purpose . touching the former of these two , when we said that the children of israel , did not impose hands on the levites as ecclesiasticall elders , the reason we give for this saying is this , because that charge was onely belonging to aaron and his sonnes , and those levites now ordained : which reason mr. rutherford never mentions , but mentions another speech , as our reason , which was delivered by us for another purpose . the like measure doth he afford to us in the second branch of the sentence by him expressed : for whereas we give two reasons of the main thing in question , that this example of the children of israel , imposing hands on the levites doth prove that in some cases , non-officers may impose hands upon church officers , the one because what these children of israel did , they did it not as elders ; the other that what they did , they did it not for themselves alone , but for all the congregation , mr. rutherford applies not these two reasons to the thing in question as they were applyed by us , but instead thereof makes one of them to be a reason of the other , which was no part of our meaning , nor could justly be gathered from our words . this being said for clearing this passage of ours from his manifold mistakes , let us now heare his answer . pag. 49● . these who laid on hands did it as a work peculiar to the elders , because the elders were a part of the first borne , who by office were elders , and in whose stead the levites were assumed , numb . 3. 40 , 41. answ . if the elders were but a part of the first born , then how could all the first born be elders by office ? or if all the first born were by office elders , then how could the elders be but a part of the first born ? these things seem not to be here . but be it so , that the elders were a part of the first born as here is affirmed , how doth this prove that they who laid on hands did it as a work peculiar to the elders ? is there any necessary or clear consequence in such a proposition ? for my part , i see it not : but on the contrary , i suppose it is certaine , that the elders might be part or all of the first born , and yet they who did the work of imposing hands might neither impose as elders , nor of necessity be elders . though in the sense expressed in the answer , i will not deny but there might be elders , that is chiefe and principall members of the congregation . but if this were granted in the sense expressed , must it needs follow that they imposed hands as elders , and as elders by office too ? can a man sustain no relation , but all his actions must be actions of that relation ? cannot a man be an husband , or a parent , &c. but his actions of plowing sowing , &c. must needs be performed by him , as he is a husband , or parent ? cannot a minister pray in his family , instruct his children , or receive the bread and wine in the lords supper in the congregation , but all these things must be performed by him as a minister ? i suppose that none will say that this doth follow : and if not , then suppose that these who imposed hands were elders , how doth it follow , that when they imposed hands , they did impose as elders ? else the church of israel being a constituted church before this time wanted officers , which is against all truth . answ . else , else what ? let the antecedent or ground of this inference be taken from the words preceding , or from any of them ( and whence else to take it i cannot tell ) and no necessity of consequence i think will appear . the words preceding are no more but these , these who laid on hands , did it as a worke peculiar to the elders , because the elders were a part of the first born , who by office were elders , and in whose steed the levites were assumed , and then comes in this inference , else the church of israel wanted officers . now how this must needs follow upon any or all of those preceding , i see not . not that i deny the truth of all those preceding words , for of some of them i think otherwise , but supposing that were all true , which is more then doth yet appeare , yet here is that which i am doubtfull in , whether this inference must needs follow upon the same ? for ought i see , the church of israel might have officers , and yet the particulars here mentioned not be all true , but some of them false notwithstanding . at least wise if they were true , yet the reason here used would not inferre so much . for , to consider a little of the particulars : the church of israel had officers , ergo , the elders were a part of the first born ( which is one of the particulars ) the church of israel had officers ; ergo the first born were elders by office ; ( which is another ) the church of israel had officers : ergo , the levites were assumed instead of the first born ( which is another of them ) is there any necessity of consequence in any of these ? for my part i see it not : but suppose they were in themselves true , yet , the medium here used doth not proove them so to be . and for that which is the first , and as i conceive the cheif , to wit , that these who imposed hands did it as a work peculiar to elders , must this needs be granted , if it be granted , that the church of israel was not without officers ? i see no necessity of granting this neither , but the contrary to me seems possible enough , that thee might be officers afore this time in that church ; and yet what was now done by them who imposed hands , not be done by them , as elders by office , but as prime and principall members of the congregation . for the clearing whereof a little further , we may observe that they who imposed hands on the levites are not here called elders , nor rulers , nor officers , nor first born , nor any such like , but the term whereby they are expressed is this , the children of israel ; the children of israel , saith the lord , shall put their hands upon the levites , numb . 8. 10. now this term being used in the 9. verse imediately preceding , and in the 11. vers . imediately following , yet in neither of both can it be meant of elders and officers alone , but in both verses is undoubtedly meant of all the body of the congregation : and therefore if the context and circumstances of the place be regarded , these children of israel , who imposed hands on the levites , v. 10. cannot in that act be considered under the not●on of officers . sure it is when the verse before tells us that the whole assembly of the children of israel must be gathered together , and the verse following tells us that aaron must offer the levites for an offering of the children of israel ; in neither of these can the children of israel be understand of the officers alone , but the whole congregation is meant hereby in both verses : reason therefore requires that this tenth verse standing in the midst between the other two , the word children of israel , being used therein should be taken in the same sense in this verse , in which it is taken in the verse before , and in the verse that comes after . nay and further , he that shall peruse this chapter numb . 8. may easily finde that this word , the children of israel is used therein no lesse then fifteen or sixteen severall times ; and sometimes foure or five times in one verse ; and yet of all these , i think here is not so much as one , where it can be understood of the elders and officers as such , but is used to signifie all the congregation . and therefore to give such a singular interpretation of this word , in v. 10. so far different from the sense of the same word , in all the rest of the verses both before and after , and those being not only one or two , but so very many ; this kind of practise and interpretation had need to be builded upon very plain and pregnant , very cleare and cogent reason and demonstration , or else our brethren may excuse us if we be not over hasty and forward to receive it . again , the ninth and eleventh verses tell us plainly , that these levites were to be offered to the lord for an offering , not of the elders alone , but of the children of israel , even of all the assembly of the children of israel , and other scriptures tell us as plainly that all offerings were to be presented with the imposition of his hands , whose the offering was , levit. 1. 3 , 4 , and 4. 24 , 29 , 33. whereby it seems evident , that these children of israel , who imposed hands on these levites , at this time when they were offered for an offering , were the whole congregation or some in your name and stead , sith these levites were an offering of the whole congregation . wee grant the magistrates laid not on hands , but they who laid on hands , did it as ecclesiasticall elders . reconcile this with that pag. 188 l. 1. where t is said , the princes and heads of tribes laid hands on them : now what were these princes and heads of tribes , but magistrates ? and if they were princes and magistrates how could they be considered in this act as ecclesiasticall elders ? the reasons against this conclude not . the first reason concludeth not . ans . here again our meaning is presented amisse to the reader ; for those three reasons of ours were given by us to prove another point , and not this to which mr. rutherford , applyes therein , as is plainly to be seen in answer , pag. 46 , 47. where the reader may perceive that those reasons were brought to shew , that when the children of israel imposed hands , if these children of israel were not all the congregation , yet what they performed herein was for the congregation , and not for themselves onely : and if those reasons prove this , as i hope they doe ; it is no great disparagement to them not us , if they prove not another point for which they were never intended . but let us hear the answer . the first reason concludeth not , because those who laid on hands were the first born , who by office were church-men . answ . how shall we be sure that those who laid on hands were the first born ? though i deny it not , yet a bare affirmation proves not . again , suppose what here is affirmed were also sufficiently confirmed , how is the point in question proved hereby ? for , say they were the first born , they might notwithstanding do what they did for all the people , and not for themselves above . the other two reasons proves nothing . answ . let them be applyed to the thing , whereto they were intended and applyed by us , and then let the reader judge . the position was , that those who imposed hands on the levites , did it for the congregation or in their stead . the first of the two reasons is , that the levites were the congregations offerings , and all offerings were to be presented with the imposition of his hands , whose the offering was : the other is this , that it was an usuall thing when the congregation were to present an offering , that the elders should impose hands on the congregations offering , in the congregations stead , levit. 4. vers . 14 , 15. now let the prophets judge , whether these reasons prove what they were brought to prove , to wit , that they who imposed hands on the levites did it for , or in stead of the congregation : or whether it be as our reverend brother affirms , that these two reasons proves nothing : yet let us hear why they prove nothing . because these who laid on hands , did lay on hands as representing the whole congregation . alas it doth no wayes conclude that they laid not on hands , as it is a worke peculiar to them 〈◊〉 elders . ans . if it doe not , yet if our reasons do conclude that they did it instead of the congregation , we have our intent : but to follow mr. rutherford a little in digressing from the point ; why , do not our reasons conclude this other ? the high-priest offered sacrifice , first for his own sins , and then for the peoples ; heb. 7. v. 27. and so did represent the people ; but i hope it followeth not that therefore the priest did not sacrifice as a priest , and by virtue of a peculiar office , but only as a principall member of the congregation . answ . mr. rutherford himself gives us a distinction which may be sufficient for answer to this passage . a representer , saith he , standeth for another either objectively or subjectively . the former of these is he that doth a busines for another , or in rem ejus , for his behalf and good , as the eye seeth and the eare heareth for the whole body ; and thus objectively the presbytery doth represent the people , that is , for your good and salvation of the people . the other representing another subjectively is when the representer hath its power from that which it representeth , as he who carrieth the room and person of a king as an ambassadour : but thus , saith he , the presbytery or eldership doth not represent the people . due right of presbyt . p. 316 , 317. now as the presbytery represents the people , so may it be said of the priest , viz. that he represented the people only objectively , for their good , but not subjectively in their room and stead , and therefore the cases are not alike ; for we think that what was done by those who imposed hands , numb . 8. was not only done for the good of the children of israel , but also in their room and stead , which he will not say of the priest sacrificing for the people , having already said the contrary of the presbytery . pag. 493. you will say , in a church , in an iland , one may be a pastor without any ordination if the people elect him , and there be no elders to ordain ; i answer it is true . answ . if this be true , then what becomnes of that which was said in the precedent page , that though imposition of hands be not so essentiall , as that a minister can be no minister without it , yet for ordination it is otherwise , this being the authoritative calling of a minister , and the other but a rite annexed to the calling . in which place he counts ordination so essentiall , as that a minister can be no minister without it , and yet in the very next page confesseth , as we see , that in some case one may be a pastor without ordination : whereupon it must needs follow either that one may be a pastor without any authoritative calling or else that ordination is in effect , but the same with imposition of hands , and so there is no such difference between them as is pretended . but so many pastors send a pastor to a congregation , though that congregation never chuse him . answ . take your own words for answer pag. 496. we never read that in the apostles church a man was obtruded upon the people against their will and therefore election by the people in the apostolike church as act. 1. 26. act. 6. 2 , 3 , 4. rev. 2. 1 , 2. act. 20. v. 28. must be our rule . any election without the peoples consent must be no election , for if it please not the whole multitude as act. 6. 5. it is not a choise . and in pag. 465. he tells us that all incorporations have power by the law of nature to chuse their own rulers and officers , and that christ hath provided the same in an eminant manner for his church . and therefore for this passage that many pastor may send a pastor to be pastor to a congregation , though that congregation never choose him , we desire that he would take his own money for payment . chap. xxv . whether a ministers calling consist in election or in imposition of hands , and whether of those is greater , and whether is prior or posterior . whether , 1 tim. 4. 14. act. 6. 2 , 3 , 4. act. 13. 1 , 2 , 3. do prove that the ministers calling consists in imposition of hands by the presbytery , and that such imposition of hands is not a consumatory rite , or benedictory signe . also whether rom. 10. 15. do prove that a man cannot be a minister except some presbytery ordain him afore the people chuse him , and whether otherwise the people doe send a minster to themselves : and whether the people of god may not aswell discern a mans fitnes to be ordained as his fitnes to be elected . pag . 493. if the people may elect officers , then in some cases they may ordaine them also , because ordination is lesse then election , and dependeth upon it as a necessary antecedent , and it is nothing but a consummation of election , or the admission of a person into the possession of that office , whereto he had right before by election . if then a single congregation may elect , which is the greater , they may ordain , which is the lesse . and for this he alledgeth the answer pag. 46 , 47. and then gives answer thereto in these words , ordination is the more and election the lesser ; for ordination is an act authoritative of the presbytery , 1. tim. 4. 14. answ . take ordination as we take it for imposition of hands on a church officer , and then we think it is lesse then election , as being but a rite or ceremony used at a ministers entrance into his office , but not at all of the essence thereof . nor are we alone , or the first that have so thought : for to omit others , he that wrote the book , called the unbishoping of timothy and tytus affirmeth pag. 114. that it is no essentiall , but a ceremoniall part of ordination , which may be sufficiently made without it , and saith that angelus de clavasio , peter martyr and others both papists and protestants affirm the same . and in pag. 116. he saith it is an act of service or ministery , not of authority , and no more then an externall complement or ceremony , alledging dr. ames & others for the same tenent . but now election is more then a ceremony that may be omitted , mr. rutherford himself being judge : for in his pag. 496. he tells us , that in the apostolike churches , a minister was never obtruded upon the people against their will , but that they still had the election of their ministers , and this he saith must be our rule , so that any election without the peoples consent must be no election , for if it please not the whole multitude it is not a choise . and in p. 202. he tells us out of chrysostome that all election of pastors is null without the consent of the people . whereby it seems that election is something essentiall ; and so consequently more then imposition of hands , which is but a rite or ceremony , which may be absent , and yet a man have all the essentialls of a minister notwithstanding . as for 1 tim. 4. 14. the imposition of hands of the presbytery there spoken of , i conceive , could not be any act of superior authority but onely an approbatory signe or rite which might be used by inferiours towards your superiours . for timothy being an evangelist , how could any ordinary presbytery have authority over him , or give office or authority to him ? besides it is not said that timothy received his gift by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery , but by the prophesie , and by the laying on of pauls hands , and with the laying on the hands of the presbytery . now between those two phrases , by the laying on of hands , and with the same , there is great difference , the one importing some cause or authority or power , the other importing no more but an approbatory rite , or a signe used in a solemne commending of one to god by prayers : altare damascen . pag. 161. of which more is to be seen in the plea for the churches in new england part of the second chap. 12. quest . 2 , 4. for ought i see the authors might argue thus , the people may ordaine : ergo , they may preach and baptise , for all the three are presbyteriall acts given to men in office. answ . we read in mornay de ecclesia chap. ● . that of old time it was an argument rise in the church , he may baptise , he may administer the lords supper ; ergo , he may lay on hands ; but such arguing as mr rutherford useth , they may lay on hands , ergo , they may baptise ; this we remember not that we have read in any authors , except in him : nor doe we think the consequence the same , inasmuch as in the one the argument proceeds from the greater to the lesse , and in the other from the lesse to the greater , and yet affirmatively in both . thus the argument is understood by the forenamed author of the unbishoping of timothy and tytus , who in pag. 100. speaking of these words of mornay layes down the argument thus , he can baptise , he can consecrate and administer the lords supper which are the greater and more honorable actions , ergo , he may lay on hands which is the lesse : and this kind of arguing for my part , i think to be good ▪ but for that of mr. rutherfords , i see no more consequence therein , then if one should say , he that may doe the lesser , may doe the greater also ▪ in which i see , no strength of consequence at all . pag. 493 , 494. whereas some say act. 6. 3 , 4 , 5. election of seven men to be deacons goeth before ordination or imposition of hands , v. 6. answ . election of the people goeth before ordination in the relation of luke , true ; ergo , election is prior by order of nature , it followeth not . answ . the place cannot be so satisfied ; for the text is very plain , that these seven were elected by the multitude afore the apostles laid their hands on them ; yea , and not onely afore in respect of priority of nature , but also in respect of time ; for otherwise , how could the apostles say as they doe unto the multitude ; brethren look out seven men among you whom we may appoint over this busines ? can any man imagine they would thus have spoken , if themselves had already found out the men , and likewise had imposed hands upon them ? for my part , i see no reason for such an apprehension ; but think it is undenyably plain in the text , that the election of these seven by the people was prior to their ordination , by imposition of the apostles hands , not onely in the relation of luke as mr. rutherford would have it , but also in nature and time , and that the contrary cannot be said without violence to the text , and injury and wrong unto the apostles , who by mr. rutherfords exposition are made to have bidden the multitude to look out for the men amongst them of honest report , &c. with a profession that when the multitude had so done they would then appoint the men to the businesse , when as by this exposition they had already appointed them thereunto , and had imposed their hands on them , which kinde of dealing had been such , that i think that apostles were farre from it . it cannot be that election of the people is the whol calling of a man to the ministery , and ordination only a supplement & a consummatory rite , or a benedictory sign , which may be spared . answ . take ordination as we do , and why cannot this be ? himself told us p. 492. that he thinks not imposition of hands so essentiall , but that a minister may be a minister without it , and that to him it is but a rite annexed to the calling : which is just the same that we hold , and yet when it comes from us it cannot be accepted . again , he told us pag. 186 , 187. that there are true and lawfull pastors , who have no call but peoples election : which if it be so , doth it not then follow , that the election of the people with the mans acceptance thereof is his whole calling ? for if ●●ey be true and lawfull pastors , who have no more but this election , it seems it must needs be that this is the whole , and yet here this is denyed . but let us hear the reasons of this denyall . 1. because by the imposition of the hands of the presbytery timothy was made a minister , 1 timothy 4. 14. answ . the text is not by the imposition of their hands , but with it , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as was noted afore out of didoclavius altare damascen . p. 161. who also sheweth in the same place at large , that this imposition of hands upon timothy was onely for a testimonall of the approbation of his calling , and for a ceremony used in commending him to god in their prayers . and in asmuch as the office of timothy was the office of an evangelist , how could an ordinary presbytery giving him either the gifts or the power belonging thereto ? when mr. rutherford hath satisfied mr. calderwood in these things ( a man of his own nation ) for i suppose mr. calderwood to be the authour of that treatise of altare damascen . then if we require more may be said of this place . in the mean time i proceed to the next . by this imposition of hands paul and sylas were separated to preach to the gentiles , acts 13. 1 , 2 , 3. answ . paul and sylas are not once mentioned in that place , but paul and barnabas ; but not to insist upon this mistake , let m. calderwood answer for us concerning this scripture : litigent , saith he , inter se pontifieii utrum impositio ista manuum fuerit ordinativa , &c. that is , let the papists contend amongst themselves whether this imposition of hands was for ordination , or onely for prayer : we hold that it was for prayer and comendatory ( for they commended them to the grace of god , as it s said , act. 14. 26. ) yet as they could not ord●●n them and call them to this ministery they being apostles , who were called extraordinarily , so neither could they appoint them to any certain imployment or place , for the holy ghost did direct the apostles in their troubles , and here it is expresly said , that they were sent forth by the holy ghost altare damascen . pag. 160. and then speaking of certain words of spalato , who saith , this imposition of hands was a pious ceremony , and used at that time as a certain part of an efficatious prayer ; he addeth , rectius diceret fuisse , &c. he might more rightly say , it was a rite and gesture of one that prayed , shewing the person for whom he did implore grace , rather then to call it an efficacious part of prayer . where we plainly see that he counts this imposition of hands on paul and barnabas no ordaining of them to the office , as some papists and it seems mr. rutherford would have it ; but onely a rite or gesture used when the presbytery commended paul and barnabas to god by prayer . this authour of altare damascenam also addeth , cum assumendi erant levitae , &c. that is , when the levites were to be taken from amongst the children of israel , the lord commands that they should be brought before jehova● , and that the children of israel should lay their hands upon the levites , numb . 8. 9 , 10. although the lord had commanded to consecrate these levites unto the ministery ; yet he commands the israelites to lay their hands upon the levites , as if they had of their own accord in their name given them up to the ministery , as junius in his analysis doth fitly interpret it : thus far mr. calderwood whose judgement of this scripture numb . 8. whether it be not the same with ours , which was formerly expressed , let mr. rutherford himself be judge . mr. rutherford addeth that by imposition of hands the deacons were ordained , act. 6. and that this is enjoyned with the right manner of acting it to timothy , 1 tim. 5. 22. and 2. 2. 2. as a ministeriall act . answ . whereas , he saith , it cannot be that laying on of hands should be onely a consummatory rite or benedictory signe , and brings the example of these deacons , acts. 6. for proof , i desire no more , but that he would accept his own words for answer . now in pag. 169. his words are these ; it is not said that the deacons were ordained with fasting and prayer , as hands are laid upon paul and barnabas , act. 13. 3 , 4. but simply that the apostles prayed and laid their hands on them ; which seems to me to be nothing but a signe of praying over these deacons , and no ceremony or sacrament conferring on them the holy ghost . now if it was nothing but a signe of praying over these deacons , then 1 the substance of their calling consisted not in this laying on of hands , but in some thing else ; and what should that be but their election by the people ? 2. if it was nothing but a signe of praying over then , then why is a consummatory rite and a benedictory signe gainsaid and opposed ? for what great difference is there between a sign of prayer and a benedictory signe ? and how shall he be reconciled with himself , that saith it was nothing but such a sign of praying , and yet will not yeeld that it was onely a benedictory signe ? and for the other particular where he saith , this laying on of hands was enjoyed to timothy as a ministeriall act , if by ministeriall act he mean an act that could be lawfully performed by none , but onely by a minister ; then i desire some proof that this was so enjoyned to timothy . that it was enjoyned to him i grant , but that it was so enjoyned needs some better proof then a bare and naked aff●rmation ; specially sith many things were enjoyned to timothy in those examples , which were and are justly applyable to all christians . furthermore suppose it were true that imposition of hands were enjoyned to timothy as a ministeriall act , how doth this reach to make good the thing in question ? what should hinder but the peoples election might contain the substance of a ministers calling notwithstanding ? or how doth it therfore follow that imposition of hands was not a consummatory rite or benedictory signe , but somthing more ? is there any such necessary consequence here , that the one of these must needs follow upon the other ? for my part i see it not , nor see any thing to the contrary , but if imposition of hands were such a ministeriall act , as he saith it is , yet it might still be meerly a consummatory rite or benedictory signe , and the substance of the calling consist still in the peoples election . himself doth say , as we hear even now , that imposition of hands act. 6. though here he call it a ministeriall act , was nothing but a signe of praying over the deacons . and therefore these two , to be a ministeriall act ▪ and yet to be nothing but a signe of prayer or benedictory sign ( which to me are the same ) are not so inconsistent by his own doctrine , but that they may well stand together ; and himself doth also hold that the laying on of hands mentioned numb . 8. 10. was a ministeriall act , and that they who did it , performed the same as ecclesiasticall elders ; and yet i hope , he will not deny that the substance of the levites calling was in the immediate designement and appointment of the lord , and not in the performance of this laying on of hands . and therefore it follows , that if laying on of hands were granted to be a ministeriall act , yet still it may be meerly a benedictory signe , and the substance or essence of the ministers calling not consist in it , but in some thing else . a mini●●eriall calling standeth in an authoritative sending , rom. 10. 15. and i see not well how the people do send a minister to themselves . answ . but it is not easie to see how they choose a man for a minister to themselves , being sent unto them by god ? and if god doe furnish a man with gifts , and an holy propensity of minde to the work in generall , and to such or such a people in particular , and make way by his providence thereto , then who can deny , but such a man is sent of god unto that people ? and then if that people observing gods sending of him in this s●●t , do hereupon elect and choose him , and promise to be obedient to him in the lord , what is there now wanting to the substance and offence of such a mans calling to such a people ? and yet the man is not sent by them to themselves , but sent by god , and received and chose by them : parcus understands this sending , rom. 10. of gods sending ▪ and so doth piscator , and who not ? and to understand it otherwise would be to condemne the prophets and apostles , who were not sent by men at all , and yet did truely answer this scripture , in that they were sent of god : true it is , ordinary ministers are not sent of god in such an extraordinary way as the prophets and apostles were , but in an ordinary way , and by ordinary means ; which way and means if they doe observe , they also may be truly said to be sent of god unto the people . but peradventure our brother means that the people may not lawfully choose a man for minister unto themselves , except he be first sent unto them , in an authoritative way by some other men , and that otherwise he is not sent unto them of god ; which if it were true , then it would follow , that the apostles and prophets , as i said , were not sent of god : for plain it is , that men sent them not . it would also hereupon be requisite to be cleared , that some men besides the church have authority to send ministers to the church , and who these men are that have such authority had need to be cleared also ; which i for my part think will not be done in hast . and till this be done , i know no reason , but i may still retain this apprehension , that men who are qualified according to the rule of the word and duly elected and chosen to some office of the ministery by gods people , are truly sent of god unto that people . the people have not either formally or by grant of christ virtually , the keyes committed to them , how then can they give the keyes to pastors ? answ . yet in p. 7. he tells us that he denyes not but there is a power virtuall , not formall in the church of beleevers , to supply the want of ordination of pastors , or some other acts of the keyes simply necessary , hic & nunc : and this power , saith he , is virtuall not formall . now to say they have this power neither formally nor virtually , and yet to say they have this power virtually though not formally , what is it but an apparent contradiction ? but suppose it were true that the people had not this power either formally or virtually , yet mr. ball and mr. bai●s afore him doe tell us , that ministerially they may give what they never had , viz. as ministring to him who hath power and virtue of deriving its as a man not 〈◊〉 a peny of his own may give an 100 l. if the king make him his almoner . thus the church deriveth a● taking the person whom christ describeth , and out of power will ●ave placed in this or that office in his church . the power of the imperiall dignity is not in the electo● of the emperours , nor the power of that office and authority , whereunto a minister is elected , in the church , who chuseth him to that office . ball tryall of separat . pag. 239 , 240. pag. 494 , 495. people may as the sheep of christ discern his voice , joh. 10. and so have a power of election of their own pastors : nor doth this make good what our brethren say , that therefore they may judge of a ministers fitnes ? answ . that which we say in this answ . pag. 51. there must be some ability to discerne whether men be qualified according to the rule , afore they ought to be elected and chosen into office ; and the people of god have so much ability as is of necessity required afore there be preceeding unto ordination ? wherein it is plain that our arguing is from the peoples ability to discern of mens fitnes afore they be elected , to their like ability to discern of their fitnesse afore they be ordained . they who have so much as to discern who are fit to be ordained : but the people of god may have the former . ergo , they may have the latter . now what saith mr. rutherford hereunto ? the assumption he denyes not , but in plain words grants it , saying , they may as christs sheep , joh. 10. discern christs voyce , and so have a power of election of their own pastors . it must then be the consequence that must be denyed , or the conclusion must be yeelded : what then brings he to overthrow the consequence ? nothing but this , that there is a two fold knowledge , one of christians not denyed to women and beleeving children , who cannot lay on hands , nor ordain mi●isters , as the presbytery doth . but what the other knowledge is he doth not plainly tell , except any thing may be gathered from the words following , where he saith , but for trying of ministers if they be the sonnes of the prophets apt to teach , able to convince the subtill hereticks , and gainsayers , and to put them to silence , there must be in a constituted church a colledge of pastors and prophets to try the prophets with a presbyteriall cognizance . answ . but if mr. rutherford would have spoken to the point , he should have given some reason why the people may discern a mans fitnes for election , and yet not discern his fitnes for ordination , for this is the consequence of our argument which he denyes . but in all that is here said about a two fold knowledge , one of christians , and the other of some body else , what is there in all this , that hath so much as the least shew of overthrowing or weakning the conseqence ? su●e nothing at all that i can finde : for as for that which is intimated , that christians have not so much knowledge as to try ministers whether they be apt to teach , &c. this makes nothing to the point in hand , that they can discern whether a man be fit to be elected , but not discern whether he be fit to be ordained ; but if it have any strength in it at all , it is as much against the ability of the people , which he expressely grants , as against that which he would deny ; as much against their ability of discerning his fitnes for ordination . and therefore how this should overthrow the one and not the other , i do not know : for to any mans understanding it makes no more against the one then against the other ; but either against both , which he will not grant , or else against neither which i conceive is the very truth ? to argue in this sort , they have not ability to convince 〈◊〉 hereticks ; ergo , they may not chuse their ministers , this mr. rutherford will not own ; for he plainly grants they may chuse : and therefore how can this arguing be good , they want ab●lity to convince hereticks ; ergo , they may not impose hands in ordination ? how the one kinds of reasoning can be better then the other , i do not know , except we would say some may be lawfully elected and chosen to the ministery , who cannot lawfully be ordained , but this i suppose cannot be said with truth . chap. xxvi . whether the epistles to timothy and titus , wherein there are contained rules of direction in laying on of hands , do prove that the action may not in any case be performed by non-officers , but must be performed onely by presbyters ; and whether the argument do not make as strongly for the appropriating of laying on of hands to the prelates , as to the presbyters , and do not as well exclude the presbyters from medling therein , as exclude the people . there is onely one place more where i finde mr. rutherford excepting against the answer ; and that is in his pag. 497. where alledging the answer pag. 59. which i conceive is misprinted for pag. 49. he sets down these words as ours , viz. if people may not meddle with ordination , because it is proper to timothy and titus , this may prove that they were bishops who did ordaine elders there alone , which ministers may not doe there , for these epistles are not written to them as bishops alone , nor as elders alone , but as to a mixt state including the people . answ . the order of the dispute is this : reverend mr. herle arguing for ordination of officers by a consociated eldership , and not by a single congregation with or without a pastor , brings this reason for his judgement , viz. rules of direction how to proceed in ordination , and the epistles where those rules are laid down , are not written to the churches or congregations , but to timothy and titus . in answer whereunto we spoke to this purpose , that if this be a sufficient reason to prove that the people may not in any case meddle with ordination , then by as good reason it will follow , that ordination belongs not to the presbytery or synod , but onely to one man , as the prelates would have it ; the reason we give is , because timothy and titus were each of them but onely one man. and we there further say , that we doe approve the answer given to this kinde of reasoning by the refuter of dr. down●●s sermon , at l●●beth , who shews that what was written in those epistles , was not onely written for timothy and titus , but for other ministers also , and also in some sort for all the saints , and that therefore there is no more reason to appropriate those rules , onely to the use of presbyteries and synods , then only to the use of prelates . now what saith mr. rutherford to this ? some parcell of these 〈◊〉 are written , saith he , to timothy and titus as evangeli●ts . something 's are written to them as christians ; and finaditer & objective all is written for the churches good , but the bulk of the epistles is written to them as elders , and especially . 1 tim. 5. 22. 2 tim. 2. 2. for these and the like they were to doe with the presbytery as is cleare , 1 tim. 4. 14. answ . this scripture 1 tim. 4. doth shew that timothy had a gift given him by prophesie with the laying on the hands of the presbytery ; but how doth it hence appear , that not only timothy but titus also was to dothings with the presbytery ? titus is not at all mentioned in that scripture . and as for timothy , scripture tells what the presbytery did to him , but what he must doe with the presbytery it tells us nothing at all . again , if the bulk of the epistles be written to them as elders , and the churches be no otherwise concerned therein , but only finaliter and objectively , the epistles being written for their good , then what shall be the meaning and reason of these words in the conclusion of the epistle to titus , and of the latter to timothy , where it is said , grace be with you , and grace be with you all ? doth it not plainly appear hereby , that more then elders , even all the saints in those places are written unto in those epistles ? thirdly if there be rules in the epistles that doe belong to elders alone , yet sith it is confessed , and may not be denyed , that other things therein doe concern all christians , how shall we be assured that such passages , as concern ●aying on of hands are of the former sort , and not of the latter ? for to say it is so , and it is clear , we think doth not clear it at all , unlesse some further proofe be added . lastly , if all this were granted , which here is said by mr. rutherford , yet for ought i see , our answer is not removed thereby , but still stands fair and good : for in that place of the answer alledged , we say two things , 1. that these rules about ordination in timothy and titus may with as fair a colour be appropriated to one man , as to presbyteries and synods . 2. that the epistles and the rules therein are not to be appropriated to bishops alone or ministers alone , but are indeed of generall concernment for all the christians . now neither of these two is discovered by mr. rutherford . for as for the former of them , he saith nothing thereto at all ; and the latter he doth in a manner grant , not only by saying that all here is written for the churches good , but also by saying that somethings are written to timothy and titus as christians which is in effect the same that we had said before . and how our answer can be disproved or satisfied , either by saying nothing at all thereto , or by saying the same that we had said before , i leave it to the judicious reader to consider . finis .