Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good. Good, Thomas, 1609-1678. 1674 Approx. 261 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 87 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-11 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A41388 Wing G1029 ESTC R23950 07933521 ocm 07933521 40515 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A41388) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 40515) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1207:7) Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good. Good, Thomas, 1609-1678. [5], 166, [1] p. Printed by L. Lichfield for Tho. Hancox, Oxford : 1674. Errata: p. [167] Reproduction of original in the Bodleian Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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VVritten in a plain and easie method , for the satisfaction of doubting Christians . By THO. GOOD , D.D. Master of Baliol Colledge in Oxon. Take heed Brethren . least there be in any of you an evil heart of unbeleif , in departing from the living God. Heb. 3.12 . OXFORD , Printed by L. LICHFIELD Printer to the University , for THO. HANCOX Book-seller in Hereford . 1674. To the Reader . COnsidering the many Learned and judicious Tracts , that are extant against Atheism , Infidelity , Popery , with other Heresies , Sects , & Schisms , destructive of the Antient Catholick Religion , and of that Peace and Vnity , Love and Charity , which is the badge and mark of Christs sheep ; I thought it superfluous to add my poor Scrible after such fair Copy's , but observing the length , and learning of those elaborate Tractat's , which many men have neither money to buy , leasure to read , nor judgment to understand , I conceived that these few short Discourses , ( not fitted , nor indeed intended , for the perusal of the learned ) might nevertheless , be gratum opus agricolis , not altogether unprofitable for men of ordinary Capacityes , to which purpose I have used such means and methods . That I might be the better understood by these men , I have endeavoured that the matter of these discourses ( for the most part ) might be plain and familiar , the phrase and expressions intelligible . I have made use of two feigned names . ( Firmianus and Dubitantius , ) to personate the sound Believer , and the doubting Sceptick Christian , who are brought upon the Stage , disputing by way of Dialogue , which is most suiteable to men of short discourse , and most apt to comply with their apprehension . I hope the more learned Reader , ( if any such shall give themselves the trouble to peruse this little Manuel ) will not Censure the plainness of it , but rather commend the Charity of the Author toward the w●ll meaning Christian , who amongst those many Treatises , that have been written , can meet with very few that are calculated for his Meridian , and consequently is apt to be blown about with every wind of doctrine , by the slight of men , and cunning craftines whereby they lye in wait to deceive ▪ and who these gamesters are , he that has but half an eye may see , and how many a poor soul has in these times of confusion been blown about from one erroneous opinion to another , until he has turned Seeker , Scheptick , and at last down right Atheist , there is no man so great a stranger in our Hierusalem that can be ignorant . Wherefore if these short and familiar discourses may have the happiness to prevent the falling of any unsetled , wavering soul , or to restore any that has fallen to a sound mind , 't will be my great satisfaction and rejoying to be able to apply to my self that of St. James , cap. 5.19 . Brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him , let him know that he that converts a sinner from the error of his way , shall save a soul from death , and shall cover a multitude of sins . Now the God of truth and peace grant , that these poor and weak endeavours may work that good effect upon the erring seduced sinner , and that the multitude of my sins may be covered , with the long white robe of my blessed Saviours righteousness , for his holy name sake . Amen . Thine in the truth that is i● Christ Jesus . THO. GOOD . DIALOGUE I. Against ATHEISME . Firm. GOod morrow to my old Friend Dubitantius . Dub. A good day to you , Firmianus . Firm. Methinks I read some discontent in your face : what may be the cause of it ? Dub. There is a great cause ; I have been so long distracted betwixt diversity of Opinions in point of Religion , that I am now doubting whether there be any Religion at all , or any Supream invisible Deity to be worshipped . Firm. This is the common result of vain Janglings , that they usually end in Atheism and Infidelity . But pray tell me , is it possible , that there should be such fierce disputes , and bitter contentions about a very nothing ? Certainly such sharp disputes about the various manners of Gods worship , do strongly argue that Religion is a thing of highest concern , or that all the wisest men that ever were in the world are Fooles , and madmen , to oppose , hate , malign , persecute one another even unto death , for a groundless fancy , a very nothing . Dub. Your discourse is very Rational , for I suppose wise men would never wrangle about a meer Romance ; yet I confess I have had strange irrational thoughts , against the very Being of God , and the truth of any Religion . Firm. You justly term such thoughts irrational . Did not I once tell you , that when you had fors●ken your Mother the Church of England , ( the most Apostolical Catholick in the whole world ) in short time you would become a Libertine , an Atheist , any thing , or nothing ? Dub. Do you think that all Nonconformists , and Separatists from your Church , are Libertines and Atheists ? Firm. I am not so uncharitable : but I must tell you , that causeless separation is a very greiveous sin , and punished many times with the seve●est judgments , such as are Spiritual blindness , Hardness of heart , and a Reprobate mind . Dub. I fear those judgments have overtaken me : for since I became a Separatist from your Church , I have been very cold at my Devotion , made little conscience of publick , or secret Praier ; of Obedience to those powers which God has ordained ; of Love , Charity , Honesty , and Upright dealing towards my neighbours . I have lived an Atheist in practise so long , that I am now ready to be an Atheist in Opinion , and to say with the foole in the 14. Psal. There is no God. I have so long s●ept out of one opinion into another , that at length I am become a very Sceptick in Religion , doubting of all , and fixing upon none . Firm. Truly Sir , you made good your name by your practise , which renders you a right Dubitantius . But pray tell me by what degrees , and methods , you have stept out of our Church into the borders of Atheism , that I may with the more facility bring you back the same way , by which you have unhappily gone out from us , into the bosome of your dear Mother . Dub. Your Demand is reasonable . 'T is not unknown to you that I was once a true son of the Church of England , you shall hereafter know for what reasons I left her Communion , and became a Presbyterian : and to be breif I stay'd not long , in that opinion , but presently I proceeded Independent , then Anabaptist , then Quaker , then Papist , then Antiscripturist , then what you now find me , almost an Atheist . Firm. I hope you are not fixed in that wretched Opinion , as resolvedly to deny him a being , that gave you yours . Dub. Sir , I am not ; but have many doubts whether there be , and as many thoughts that there is not a God , Creator and ●overnour of Heaven and Earth , and all things in them cont●ined . Firm. I have heretofore taken you for a rational man , and therefore I desire a reason from you of such thoughts and doubts . Dub. Those many Controversies , and sharp contentions about religion and worship of God , have caused me to doubt , whether there be any Religion at all , or any God to be worshipped . Firm. Is it imaginable that so many wise men should contend about a trifle , a fancy , a very nothing ? 'T is strange that what should be a most rational motive to perswade you to beleive that there is a God , and a Religion , should make you doubt of both . There must be something in it , that draws so many Combatants into the field , Zealous Sticklers for their several Modes , and Formes , of Religion , hateing ●ne another even unto death . Dub. This you have intimated before . I am fully convinced , that so many fierce disputes about Religion , do argue , that t is not a meer fancy . I pray Sir , enquire no further after the reasons of my doubts , but let me hear from you , how they may be satisfied . Firm. Most willingly ; but that we may proceed the more methodically , let it be agreed be●wixt us , what is the true notion of God. Upon supposition that God is , what do you conceive of him in your mind ? Dub. 'T is agreed by all , that the notion or conception of God in our mind , is , † that he is a being infinitely perfect . Firm. If God be a being infinitely perfect ▪ then God is : for a being infinitely perfect must necessarily exist and be . Dub. Do not we say , a Rose is a flower , yet it does not follow ( at a●l times ) that a Rose is : for in the winter there is no such thing as a Rose , and yet the proposition is true . Firm. There is a vast difference betwixt a being absolutely perfect , and that which has a limited and finite perfection ; for in this the essence may be really abstracted from the actual existence , but not in that . For a being infinitely or absolutely perfect , must necessarily exist ; not contingently , or impossibly ; for those modes are inconsistent with a being absolutely perfect ; for whatsoever does exist contingently , is in possibility not to exist , which is an imperfection : and impossibility of existence is the greatest imperfection of all other . Dub. This reason is so obscure , that albeit I cannot reply to it , yet I am not satisfied with it . I fear some fallacy lies hid in the bowels of it . Firm. I believe not ; yet because you do not fully comprehend it , I shall proceed to others tha● are more plain and intelligible . Firm. What say you then to that reason which is drawn from the General consent of all nations , as well Heathens as Christians ; Nulla gens tam barbara , &c. saies Cicero ; No nation was ever so barbarous which did not confess a God ; now the consent of all nations is the law and dictate of nature , so that t is impossible that all nations should consent in so great a falshood , as the Atheist endeavours to maintain . Add to this their general practise in worshiping some supream Deity ; that rather then worship no God at all , they would worship the Sun , Moon and Stars , ye● the mo●t contemptible Creatures , the Crocodile , Onyons , Garlick , a Red Cloath , any thing they first met with in the morning ; so powerful is the impulse and inclination of nature in this great business of Religion , which is the proper distinguis●ing Character betwixt a man and a beast : as Lactantius has long since observed . Dub. I confess that the general consent of nations in the acknowledging and worshiping a God , has been one main reason , that has kept me from being a down-right Atheist : Yet I have somwhat to say against it ; because this consent is not so general as is pretended , for I have heard there have been men in Antient times , and not a few in these we live in , who have said , not only in their hearts , but also with their tongues , there is no God. Firm. What are two , or three men in former ages , or a fe● debauched persons in this , to the general consent of all civil nations , from the beginning of the world ? Happily you have heard that so●e have denied , the Sno● to be white , the Fire to be hot . Monstrous opinions are no more a prejudice to the dictates of nature , and common consent of all nations , then monstrous shapes and formes in the body are to the laws of nature , which she generally observes , in the forming of men and beasts in their due proportions , and lineaments ▪ What if some few , out of discontent , singularity , animosity , or brutish sensuality , have turned Atheists ? Is it not a great prejudice to this brutish opinion , That few Sober men ( if any ) have been of their party , but such as have been first Atheists in practise , sensual , debauched wretches ? Nam quo quis in vita purior , &c. saies Cicero : ●y how much any man has been more pure in his li●e and conversation , by so much his thoughts of the Gods have been more sound and rational . Dub. I confess it is a great prejudice to Atheism , that the Debaucher sort are the greatest ( i● not the only ) sticklers for it ; but still my doubt remains , and therefore I desire to hear from you some more evident reasons , for my full satisfaction . Firm. Most willingly I shall comply with you● desire . My Third Argument shall be this . If the world had a beginning , and was not from all eternity , then 't was made by somthing else ; for nothing can make it self . 'T is as clear as the Sun at noon day , whatsoever is made , is made by another ; for that which is not , cannot work , and consequently cannot produce it self , nor a●y other ●●ing : now this somthing else must be made o● some other cause , or else it self must be the supream cause of all things . If you affirm the former , you must run up into an infini●e number of Causes , which is impossible , or else you must come at last to one supream independent being , which is the maker of all things , he himself being made of none , which is the eternal God. Dub. I begin to feel the weight of this Argument . If you can clearly prove the world to have had a beginning , I shall be your Convert , and readily confess , that verily there is a God that hath made the world , and judgeth the earth . Firm. This I hope I shall perform by his gracious assistance , whose cause I plead , and whose poor sinful creature I am . First , Then by the world we understand the whole Systeme , or Collection of things in it contained , Sun , Moon , Stars , Air , Earth , Water , Men , Beasts , Fo●les , Fishes , Plants , and all things whatsoever comprehended in this vast circumference . Dub. I willingly grant that by t●● World we are ●o understand all things therein contained , as you have enumerated them , which make up the visible world , created by Almighty God , in six daies , as your Moses would have us believe . Firm. That none of these were from all eternity , I shall prove by instancing in two of the most principal of them , to wit , the Sun in the Firmament , and Man that dwells upon the face of the earth , by which you may judge of the rest . Dub. If you can prove that the Sun was not from eternity , and that there was a first Man , and consequently that mankind had a beginning , I shall be abundantly satisfied , it that wherein at present I much doubt , viz. The worlds beginning . Firm. Before I proceed to my arguments , you must give me leave , to lay down certain principles which no rational man will deny ; As for example . 1. Quicquid fit , fit ab alio , whatsoever is made , is made by somthing else ; for nothing can make it self . 2. Omne ens est vel factum , fi●itum , dependens , vel non factum , infinitum , independens ; every thing that is , is either made , finite , independent ; or not made , infinite , independent . 3. Vere i●finitum non habet principium , aut finem ; that which is truly infinite , has neither beginning , not end . 4. Non datur pro●essus in infinitum ; we cannot pro●eed in numbering , from effects to causes , or in any other way imaginable infinitely , but we must come ●o some period o● end . 5. Infinitum no● potest pertransiri , 't is impossible to pass over or through that which is infinite , so as to come to an end of it , seeing what is infinite has no end . 6. Infinito ●il potest addi , to that which is infini●e nothing can be added to make it greater , or more then 't was before that addition . 7. Aeternitas est duratio ●nterminabilis sine partium successione , in qua non datur prius & posterius ; Eternity in its full and proper notion , is a boundless duration , without beginning or end , without succession of parts , as that one part of it should be either before or after another . Dub. No rational man can deny any of these principles : but I much wonder , how so great a master of reason , as Aristotle was , should grant all or most of these , and hold the eternity of the world , and not be sensible of manifest contradictions . Firm. That the Eternity of the world is a flat contradiction to many of these principles , is evident ; that Aristotle was an acu●e Philosopher , cannot be denied ; but it must be granted he was but a man , and one that had only the light of corrupted nature to guide him , he might therefore err , not knowing the Scripture , nor indeed the power of God , and therefore he w●s ignorant how the world could have a beginning ; and seeing he very resolutely maintained , that ex nihilo ni●il fit , that whatsoever is made , is made of somthing , and that of somthing else , and so we mu●● proceed in infinitum , which he positively denied as absurd and impossible , as well he might ; or else the world must be from all eternity , proceeding from the first mover , ( whom he conceived to be a necessary , not a free Agent ) as heat from the fire , or light from the sun , and therefore eternally existing with that first mover , or first cause : however some have affirmed , that in his Book de Mundo ( if that be his ) he retracted this error , which has been a grand occasion of Atheism , as F●rra ▪ upon Aquin●s ●ontra Gent. has truly observed . Dub. And well he might , if 't was built upon ●o sandy a foundation , as to make God a necessary Agent , for that was to render him inferiour to some of his Creatures , which are free and voluntary . But pray leave the Philosopher to his other errors , and self-contradictions , and make it appear , if you can , that he erred in asserting the eternity of the world . Firm. That I hope to perform by principles granted by all sober men . There is nothing in the world , but either 't was made , and had a beginning , or 't was not made , but was from all eternity ; now t is evident , that there is no particular thing in this visible world , which was not made . The Sun , Moon , & Stars were made , Men , Beasts and Plants were made . For brevity sake , I shall only instance in the Sun , and in Man , that they were made , and had a beginning , and consequently the Moon , and Stars , ●easts , and Plants . 1. That the Sun was made , and had a beginning , I thus demonstrate : That which was not from all eternity , but had a beginning , was made , and that by somthing else , because nothing can make it self ; but the Sun was not from all eternity . The Major is evident , the Minor is thus confirmed ; If the Sun was from all eternity , then either it moved , from all eternity , or it stood still ▪ if it moved from eternity , then 't was eternally together in the East , Meridian , and West , not first in the East , then in the Meridian , then in the West : for in an eternal motion , ( if any such motion were possible ) there can be no ●uccession ▪ no first , or last , ( prius or posterius ) because in such a motion there is neither beginning no● end . Dub. 'T is evident , by what you say , that the Sun has not moved from eternity , but how can you prove it did not stand still from eternity , seing there are some that hold it alwaies stood still , and never moved to this day , but that the earth moves and the Sun not at all . Firm. It hinders not the force of the Argument , whether you hold the earth move , and the Sun stands still , or the contrary ; for 't is but shifting the Scene , and puting the Earth instead of the Sun , and the reason will be altogether the same . Dub. I perceive it does not , and therefore let me hear how you can prove that the Sun did not stand still from all eternity . Firm. If the Sun stood still from eternity , then there was an eternal night upon half the face , or Globe of the earth , and an eternal day up on the other half , ( or at least many other gross absurditie● would follow . ) No vicissitudes or changes of night and day , summer and winter , spring and autumn , and consequently no productions , or generations of Men , Beasts , Plants , for that half of the earth which was deprived of the light and heat of the Sun , ( which as a second cause gives life and vegetation to all the inferior Creatures , that have life and growth ) could bring forth no vegetables , or animals ; and the other half , which was alwaies scorched with too much heat , must of necess●ity be as barren by such heat , as the other by extream cold ; and so we should have an eternal Sun to no purpose , and then what will become of your eternal world ? Besides if the Sun stood still from eternity , what caused it to move in time ? of it s own nature certainly it could never awake out of an eternal sleep : if any thing else set it in motion , then either it must be somthing that was moved by some superior Cause , and this cause by another , and so to an infinite number of causes , which is absurd and impossible , or else it must be the first mover and efficient cause of all things , which is God. Dub. You have abundantly satisfied me , that the Sun had not an eternal being , and consequently that neither men , beasts , or plants , could be from all eternity ; however I desire to hear from you some particular arguments against the eternity of man-kind . Firm. There is no particular man but had ▪ beginning , was made and begotten by his Parents , they by theirs , and so we must ascend from son to father , up to all eternity , usque ad infinitum , which is utterly impossible , or else we must come to a first man , who could not make or beget himself . Now if every particular man be made , and begotten , then the whole kind must be made , because the whole kind is nothing else , but the Collection of all particulars . Every one of them we see by daily experience had a beginning , and is begotten or made ; therefore 't is made by some other , for quicquid fit , fit ab alio , and this of some other , and so forward until we come to the supream cause of all things , which is God. Again , Either all men that are , or ever were in the world , were made ; or some were made , and some not made , but had being of themselves : if so , 't is impossible that these men should be of the same kind , with the men that were made , for that which is made depending upon another , cannot be of the same kind with that which is not made and independent , because a thing that is not made , infinite , independent , is of another kind from what is made , finite , and dependent ; and these two ( finite and infinite , dependent and independent ) are opposite members , dividing one and the same most common kind . Dub. 'T is a clear demonstration , that every particular man being made , the whole kind must be made ; hut pray tell me , might there not be a perpetual successive generation of men up to all eternity , and so a processus in infinitum , an infinite number of them without all beginning ? Firm. This is altogether impossible ; for in a Catologue , or Series of things , every one of which had a beginning , as 't is evident that every particular man had ( and consequently the whole Series ) there cannot possible be a processus in infinitum , up to all eternity , or an infinite succession of causes and effects , without all beginning ; Eternity properly so called , has neither beginning , no● end , for 't is duratio interminabilis . an infinite unlimited duration , and therefore whatsoever had a beginning cannot possibly be eternal , but the whole series of men had a beginning , for whatsoever is made had a beginning , but the whole Series of men was made , therefore it had a beginning , for every particular man had a begining : therefore the whole Series , which is nothing else but a collection of all particulars , and therefore it cannot be equal or comensurable to eternity , which is without beginning . Again , If the ●eries , or rank of men did run up to eternity , or into an infinite number of successive generations , then that infinite number of men have been swallowed up of death many millions of years before this age we live in , and so death has passed over that number , which is contrary to that certain principle , infinitum non potest pertransiri ; 't is impossible to pass over , or through that which is infinite : nay then ●here would not be any man living at present ; for if an infinite number of men are already dead , then all the men that ever were or may be are dead , for infinito nihil pot●st ●ddi . Yea if the world should continue ten millions of years longer , there could not be after those ten millions of years more men in it , then there were ten millions of years before this present ; for nothing can be added to that which is properly infinite , to make it greater in magnitude , or more in number , neither could the Father be before the Son , nor the gre●t Grandfather before or elder then either ; nam in aternitate non datur prius & posterius . In this infinite duration , there is no former or latter , and consequently had the world been from all eternity , it could not truly be said , that any man was before another ; not Abraham before Isaac , or he before Jacob. Dub. You have made it very plain , that the world had a beginning , and consequently ( because t is ridiculous to suppose that it had its beginning from it selfe , chance , or Atomes ) that there is one supream cause of infinite power and wisdome , the Creator of Heaven and Earth , and of all things therein contained , which is the Glorious and eternal God , of whose being I hope I shall hence forth never entertain the least doubt . Firm. Though you seem to be well satisfied with these reasons , which I have urged for the being of God , yet because something in them are not so intelligible to men of ordinary Capacities , who perhaps may cast their eyes upon these papers ; you shall give me leave to use other reasons that are more plain and familiar , and such as may perswade more with men of ordinary abilities , then those that I have proposed to you● self . Dub. Though I am fully satisfied in that great fundamental point , yet in this I commend your Charity , and do not envy the satisfaction of others . But I believe you cannot alledge more convincing reasons th●n those which you have already made use of ; however I desire to hear what you can further say , for the Con●irmation of this very great truth . Firm. The other reason which I shall produce shall b● taken from the Goodly fabrick of the world , the harmonious order of all things therein contained , the horror of conscience in wicked men ; the dread of perjury in very heathens , the appearance of evil Spirits , their strange working in witches and wizards ; which may be seen more largely treated of in Doctor Fotherbys Atheomastix , Doctor Andrews Cattechisme , Du-Plessis truth of Christian Religion , Grotius of the same , Doctor Mores Antidote against Atheism , Parsons Resolutions , Doctor Stillingfleets Origines sacrae , Gales Gentils Court , Mr. Baxters Christian Religion , with many others : I shall breifly sum up what these learned men have wrot at large , beginning with that argument which is taken from the Goodly fabrick of the world . 1. T was excellently said of Tertul. lib. de Resur . facilius credas Prophetiae si sis discipulus naturae , if we be conversant in the works of nature , they will lead us to the knowledg and beliefe of Scripture . There is a most sweet harmony , betwixt those two Books , the Book of Nature and the Book of Grace . What is said of the one , monstrat Quaelibet herba Deum ; every herb or plant does shew there is a God , is most true of the Scripture ; Quaelibet linea Deum refert , every line in this Book , shews us the power , providence , and wisdome of God. And if the Atheist will disdain to read this excellent Commentary upon the Book of nature , let him seriously peruse the Text , the harmonious beauty and order of the Universe . Plato and some other of the Antients , were used to demonstrate the being of a Supream Deity by a Clock ; whose hammer when it striketh sheweth the next wheele that moves it , that the next , and so forward until you come to the Clockmaker ; who made all the wheels , and caused their regular motions . Another instance is commonly made use of , If a man should travel into a far Country , at present not inhabited , and there should behold some Goodly building , he would presently conclude it grew not out of the Ground , neither did the be●sts make it , but t was the work of some ingenious Artists ; Or if a man should behold a well ordered army of Soldiers , keeping rank and file , turning altogether ( as if they were animated by one Soul ) sometimes to the right hand , sometimes to the left , he would presently conclude that there was some expert Commander to direct them . Even so he that casts his Eye upon this Goodly Fabrick of the world , must needs acknowledg the great Power and Wisdom of its Maker ; He that shall seriously observe the harmonious order , the regular motions of its parts , must needs acknowledge the truth of that saying , Psal. 19.1 . the heavens declare the Glory of God , and the firmament sheweth his ha●dy work . And Rom. 1.19 . That which may be known of God is manifest in them , for the inv●sible things of God are clearly seen , by those things that are made ; viz his eternal power and Godhead . Job . 26.7 . He stretcheth out the North over t●e empty place , and hangeth the earth upon nothing . Seriously consider what is wrote in the , 36.37.38 . Chapt. &c. of that Book , besides many other excellent Texts in the holy Scripture , declaring how the Glory , wisdome , power of God is manifest in the admirable frame of the world , and the exquisite order and harmony of all things therein contained . See how the Heavens warm and water the Earth ; how the earth , brings forth the grass , herbs , and plants ▪ how these feed the beasts ; how the beasts serve the several necessities of man ; who is the only Creature ( the immortal Angels excepted ) that can in a rational manner serve , and set forth the glory of his Creator . O how desirable are all his works , and that a man may see even to a sparke , ●ccles . 42.22 . none so little as does not manifest the Glory , none so great , which is not subject to the Almighty power , and wise disposal of the Creatou●r . Behold the in●nimate Creatures , how they declare it , the Sea whose proud waves are bounded by his power , Job . 38.11 . of whose wonderfull ebbing and flowing , no man is able to render a satisfactory account ; certainly those that go down to the Sea in Ships , and do business in great waters , these men see the works of the Lord , and his w●nders in the deep . Ps. 107. The earth which contains so much rich treasure in the bowels of it , such v●riety of plants , herbs , flowers , both for use & delight in the Surface of it . The Air that compasseth about both Sea and Earth , receiving multitudes of vapours , and exhalations from them both , and returning them in gratefull dews and sho●res . The wind that is brought out of Gods treasury , no man knows whence it comes , nor whether it goes ; the wisest Philosophers are at stand , they know nor what to say of it . The lightning and thunder , two terrible , yet very usefull Creatures ; frost and snow , and ice and hail , all which declare the Glory of God : see Psal. 147.148 . But above all the inanimate Creatures , those that are above them , all in place and exellency , do magnify the Glory of their Creator ; as the Sun , Moon , and Stars . O saith David , Psal. 8. when I consider the Moon and the Stars , which thou hast ordained , what is man that thou art so mindfull of him , and the Son of man that thou visitest him ? Looke we on the animate Creatures , plants , herbs , flowers , grass , grain , how wonderfully they grow and multiply ? consider their variety , beauty ▪ virtue , pleasures , profits , monstrat Quaelibet herba Deum , every herb points out a Deity . Consider the fish in the Sea , the beasts in the Land , the fowls of the Air , see how they declare the glory of their maker , peruse with a serious and diligent Eye the , 39.40.41 . Chap. of Job as before . Last of all , Thou stupid Creature , consider thy self , that art fearfully , and wonderfully made . View the excellent harmony , consent and use of all the parts in thy little world , with what dutifull care they serve each other , so that the head cannot say to the feet , I have no need of you ; the Consideration of which excellent frame , and contexture of parts in the body of man , made the learned Galen stand amazed , and turned him from an Atheist , to confess , and believe a God , and to compose an hymn , in praise of his Almighty Creator . In a word if we consider the whole Creation , the harmony and Subordination of the several parts of that Goodly Fabrick of the Universe ; they do wonderfully declare the wisdom , power , and Glory of the omnipotent eternal maker of Heaven and Earth . If we behold how the Heavens serve the Earth , the Earth the Plants , these the Beasts , these man , whose great end and errand for which he was sent into this world , was to serve him , who made the inferior Creatures for man , and man for himself , we must needs break out into the Psalmists holy Rapture , O Lord how marveillous are thy works , in wisdome hast thou made them all : and he must certainly be a very unwise man , that doth not consider them , and a very Fool , that will not understand them . Dub. From what you taught me a little before , that t is utterly impossible for any thing to make it self , or by the power of its own nature , and to spring out of nothing into somthing ; and by what you have now delivered , from the goodly frame , and fabrick of the world , and the harmonious order of its parts , t is evident that it owes not its original to chance , which is a very dream : 't is as cleer as the Sun at noon day , that their is an Allwise , an Almighty God , the Glorious maker of Heaven and Earth ; however I pray you let me heare your other reason , from the sacred bond of Oaths , the horror of Cons●ience , &c. Firm. T is evident that very Heathens , and mere natural men , that have made no Conscience of telling a thousand lies , of drunkenness , fornification , theft , malice , envy , revenge , &c. durst not seriously and solemnly take one false o●th , for fear of divine vengeance which hath been executed upon perjured persons , as i● evident , from histories sacred and prophane . 'T is a most remarkable peice of history , which is related of three notorious villaines , which did swear against Narcissus Bishop of Hierusalem ; as Eusebius reports it , lib. 6. Chap. 18. of Eccl●s . Hist. And about the year 1661. we had a very signal instance of Divine justice , executed upon on G. at Ludlow , in the Councill of the Marches , who taking a false oath in th●t Court , was strucken in the same place presently with suddain death . Such judgments as these against perjury were so frequently observed by some heathens , that when Diagoras hearing a man for swearing himself in a Court of Judicature , and being impatient to see that he was not presently thunder-strucken , became an Atheist , and because Sentence against so great an evill was not suddenly executed , therefore the heart of this fool , this wicked man , was fully set in him about that great mischief , to say there was no God. Psal. 14.1 . Eccl. 8.11 . Dub. Some Pagans a●d false Christians , have dared to take false Oaths . The Jesuites ( whether they be Pagans or Christians I know not ) will swear anything , even solemnly in Courts of Justice , and therefore this argument ▪ ( impious me● dare not take a false oath , therefore there is a Deity or some Supream power which they fear , ) holds not , for the antecedent is evidently fals ; but this is rational , strange horrors and terrors of conscience , and fearfull judgments have followed perjured persons , ( tho no man knew they were so ) therefore there is some invisible superior power whe●ce such horrors and terrors and judgment● proceed . Frm. I do confess that there have been several perjured persons in former , and are in these present times , but for a full answer to this exception , see what is replyed to another very like it Pag. 4. however I am content the argument should stand , as you have proposed it , strange horror and terrors of conscience , and fearfull judgment have followed perjured persons , &c. which sufficiently proves what I intended , and therefore I proceed . Another argument very like to this , or which is rather an addition to the former , may be tak●n from the feares and torments of an evil co●science , even amongst the very heathens . Nero haveing killed his Mother , confessed that he was often troubled which her Ghost . The wretched Caligula at the report of a thunder clap would ●un under his bed . A thousand instances there are amongst heathen writers , of wicked men labouring under the feares and terrors of their own co●science , which Juvenal does describe to the life in one or two of his Satyrs . What should be the reason that mere Pagans , men having no knowledg of the true God , or of his Severity against wickedness , should be tormented with the sad prospect of some fearefull judgment , attending upon their villanies tho never so secretly practised , but the timor Numinis vindicantis , the fear of divine vengeance ? A third argument may be drawn from the certainty that there are Devils , evil Spirits , together with their wicked Instruments , Witches , Magicians , Sorcerers , Conjurers , which none but a foolish Atheist ( who will believe no further then his sight leads him ) can doubt of . How frequently the Devil has appeared in this nation in times of gross ignorance● , and superstition , and how he does so still to the poor ' Indians th●t worship him for their God , is aboundantly manifest by the tradition of our fore fathers , and the testimony of knowing Christians , that have been in those parts . What pranks and diabolical feats , have been acted by Witches and Conjurers , may be seen in those learned Authors , that have wrot against them ; as Dr. Moor , and many others . And albeit the appearances of evil Spirits , Witch-crafts , &c. are not now so frequent in this nation as heretofore , in times of Popery , and darke Ignorance , yet does it not therefore follo● , that all our forefathers were Melancholly Hypocondriacks , deceived themselves , and deceiving us with vain and groundless phansies : but the true reason is this , in times of ignorance , and superstition the Devil appears more frequently , to uphold his Kingdome over his vassals , and to confirm them in their false worship ; but in times of knowledg and Gospel light , the Prince of Darkness uses all his arts to render men Scepticks in Religion , and of no Religion at all , Atheists , Infidels , Prophane : so that his very appearing would pull down his Kingdome , which he exercises over these wretches , who like Sadducees believe neither Angel , nor Spirit , nor any thing further then they can see . Now the Prince o● the Air is too subtil to confute this Gro●s errour in his best servants by any or often apparitions . The last reason I shall take from that allowed disti●ction that is betwixt good and evil , better and worse ; which could not be , unless there were some measure of mans actions : and this measure must be a law , either written in mans heart , or instituted and written in bookes or tables ; and thi● law must have a law maker , which must be able both to know , reward , and punish , not only mans words and actions , but his very thoughts , which none can do according to the exact rules of Justice , but he that is infinite in knowledg , and wisdom ; that is , none but the omniscient God. Besides all this , there are degrees in good and evil ; for of things that are good , some are better then others , of things that are evil some are worse then other . Now these degrees of good and evil , take their rise and fall by their aproaching to , or declination from that which is summum bonum , or the chiefest good ; so that , if there were no best , or cheifest good , there could be no better or worse , no good or evil at all , therefore there must be one infinite good . To conclude this first discourse ; seeing the inclination of all People , to believe a God , the instinct of nature to confess it , the excellent fabrick of the world to declare it , the force of wicked mens consciences to fear it ; the Custom of civil nations to adore it , do abundantly prove that God is , yea doubtless that there is a God , that judgeth the earth , what a monstrous Creature is the fool Atheist , that saith in his heart there is no God ? Dub. Though I was abundantly satisfied with your former reasons against Atheism , yet I heartily thank you for these which you have here added , which though they are more largely treated on by several learned Authors , yet as you have breifly summed them up , they are more suitable to men of ordinary capacities , and of short discourse , who loose themselves in long treatises , and are apt to forget what they have read in the beginning of them , before they come to the middle , and are more tired with the length , then pleased with the soundness and excellency of such discourses . Sir being fully satisfied with your reasons against Atheism , I humbly beseech the Almighty Creatour of heaven and earth , to bless them unto me , to preserve me from all prophane , irreligious Courses , from practical Atheism , which by its own Natural propensity , and the just judgment of the most holy and righteous God , is the great cause of that which is Speculative and Dogmatical . DIALOGVE II. against Antiscrpturisme . Firm. HAving given you such satisfaction about the being of God , as hath fully removed all your doubts concerning that first and great principle ; if you please we will discourse of the other that is like unto it , the Divine Au●h●rity of the holy Scripture : for upon these two depend the great and weighty business of Religion . He that is steadfast in the beliefe of the being of God , and the truth of his mo●t sacred word , ( if he be true to these great fundamentals ) must of necessity be both an Orthodox and a serious Christian. Dub. If you can give me as good satisfaction , in the divine Authority of Scripture , as you have in the being of an eternal God , Creatour of heaven and earth , you will performe a work of greatest Charity , but I f●ar of as great difficulty . Firm. Happily you may perceive some difficulty in it , but if you will make use of your reason , and lay aside all prejudicating opinions , which cheifly arise from that contrariety which is betwixt mens carnall corrupt hearts , and the holy and pure word of God , I hope by his blessing whose Cause I plead , to perswade you to give your full assent to this other great principle of Christianity . Dub. I shall endeavour to weigh your reasons , in the ballance of an even unbiassed judgment , and to receive them , a●imo defaecato , with a mind free from the dregs of sensuality , interest , partiality , or prejudice . Firm. Upon the confidence to find this ingenuity in you , I shall present you with these following reasons . 1. You do belive that there is an omnipotent God , Creatour of heaven and earth , that he made all things therein contained , that being infinite in wisedome and knowledg , he made all these things for some good end , that he hath ordered them to act and worke , in such a manner as is suitable to their several natures , that in as much as they have their being , facultys , operations , from their all wise and Glorious maker , they are bound by the law of Creation , to do homage and service to him that made them . Dub. All this I grant to be very rational . Firm. These things being granted ; that ( not to mention other Creatures ) as man had his being , reason , and understanding from Almighty God , so is he bound to serve him in that way and manner , which is agreeable to mans excellent nature , which must be therefore a reasonable service , which all the world , as well Pagans as Jews , and Christians call Religion , which according to all sober people comprehends duties of piety , as praier , praises and sacrifices , duties of temperance , sobriety , and chastity , duties of honesty , justice , righteousness , and all morality . Dub. There is nothing more evident , then that as there is a most wise and holy God , that made man , endued him with excellent facultys , of reason and understanding , so there is a debt and duty owing from man to God , his maker , which all the world calls Religion , and no people in the world were ever so barbarous , ( saies Cicero ) as to be destitute of all Religion ; yea there is such a tendency in ▪ the nature of man ( where t is not utterly extinguished by brutish sensuality ) that rather then he will worship no God at all , he will bow down to a Sock , or a Stone ; so that clear it is , if there be a God the Creatour , and man by him created , there must of necessity be a Religion . Firm. Truly nothing does more necessarily follow ( as Du-Plessis has well observed ) then a God , a man , a Religion . But if Almighty God did make man to worship him , sure he gave him some rules for that worship , some law to direct him in this great concern of his Soul. Dub. I cannot deny it ; and that this law was no law written in paper , or engraven in tables of stone , but the law of nature written in mans heart ; which made Tertullian , utter these excellent words , o ani●a naturaliter Christiana , ô Divine Soul that art naturally a Christian. We see that the fire ascends , the water moves towards the Center , birds make their nests , Beasts feed their young , not by any outward positive law , but by the unerring hand of nature , and may not man that has a natural inclination to serve his maker , perform this service without any institued law , or prescribed Canon . Firm. Ther 's no disputing against experience ; you see he does not , and when you shall embrace , and understand the holy Scriptures , you will see he cannot by reason of his fall from that ●erfect sta●e , in which he was first made , whereas the inferior Creatures kept their Station . Dub. I confess there are different Religions in the world , opposite one to another , so that all of them cannot be in the right way of wo●shiping God ; some of necessity must be false and erroneous . Firm. If of all religions in the world , all are not in the right , how will you know which is the true Religion , which is the false ? This you cannot discern by any imprinted law or light of nature ( unless excited by Art and industry ) which is in some measure common to all men that are not natural fools , and Madmen , stupid inconsiderate wretches , or debauched bruits , whose reason is ●unk down into gross Sensuality . Dub. T is very true , if the meer light of nature were sufficient to point out the true Religion , I am not able to say why so many Sober men , in several parts of the world , who have not debauched their Reason , and judgment should so strangely differ about it . Firm. I believe you cannot , nor yet why Jewes and Pagans did offer up bloody Sacrifices to these Deitys , they worshipped . Does any light of nature make it rational that the Gods should be pleased with the blood of poor innocent Beasts ? or is it rational to imagine that they should delight in humane ●acrifices ? Dub. I must acknowledge I do not understand , how the light of nature should teach men , that such Sacrifices should please the Gods. I have oft●n wondered at this part of worship used by Jews , and Gentiles ; pray Sir , give your selfe the trouble , of informing me whence this practise sprang ? Firm. You are satisfied that it had not its original from the light of nature ; for albeit , some kind of Sacrifices as Prayers , praises , alms-deeds , and it may be the offering of the Fruits of the Earth , Deo datori , to God that gave them , might spring from that light , yet the Sacrificing of Beasts was never shewed , to Jew or Gentile by natures Candle , but was after the fall of man , appointed by Almighty God to prefigure the Grand propitiatory Sacrifice , which was to be made by the blood of him , that was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world , which the Devil ( who is tearmed Gods Ape ) taught his servants the Gentils to imitate , who had the shell but not the kernel , the shadow , but not the substance , the outward rite , but not Christ crucified , represented by it . Dub. I do acknowledg that the Sacrificing of beasts came not from the light of nature ; and you seem to make it probable that 't was from divine revelation , and positive institution . Firm. You will be better satisfied , when you shall consider , That the founders of all Religions in the world , did pretend to Revelations , Numa , Lycurgus , Mahomet , &c. which the devil taught them to do in imitation of Moses and the rest of the holy Prophets , who spake as they were moved by God. 2. Pet. 1.20 . Now there being but Four Religions in the world , Iudaism , Christianity , Paganism , and Mahometism ; If I shall prove unto you that Christianity , ( whose rule and foundation is the holy Scripture ) is the only true Religion , and the other Three false , I hope you will grant that the foundation on which it stands is the true Revelation , and consequently that the Scripture is no invention of man , but given by Inspiration and Revelation from God , which is the summ of my first Argument . Dub. If you can prove that the other Three Religions are false , 't will necessarily follow , that the Revelations to which they pretend are likwise false . Firm. This I shall easily do ; beginning with Paganism , which consists in the worshiping of the C●●●tures ▪ 1. The Sun , Moon , and all the Host of Heaven ; 2. d●●d men ; that called Sabaisme , this H●ll●nisme , from the nations that fi●st used these modes of worship , of both which we have a short account , im the book of Wisdome , chap. 13. and 14. but more fully in Vossius de Idola●ria , and in the Author of the Gentils Court , who hath m●de use of divers excellent men , that have wrote of this Subject . That this Religion of Pagans was against the l●w , and light of nature , both in respect of the things wo●shipped , and also in respect of the abominable ●ites and Ceremonies , any man that has the least sparke of that light remaining in him , may ●asily discern . First , The things worshipped were the Creatures , some of them that never had life , others th●t once lived but are now dead , whose ghosts or Manes the Heathens imagined to be confined to their Idols ; whereas no Creature can be c●pable of Religious wors●ip ; for 't is repugnant to all right reason , that one Creature should thus worship another , God alone being the proper object of such worship , because in him we live , move , and have our being , and he it is that gives us life and breath , and all things ; therefore Deo datori , to God the Creator , and giver of all good things , all religious worship is only due . Besides some of the wiser Heathens , acknowledg that there could be but one God ; 't was a common saying amongst them , dicite plures , dicite nullum , 't is all one to say there are many Gods , as to say there is no God , for the notion which they had of God , was that he was ens infinitum , a being of infinite power and perfection ; but natural reason shewed them that there could be but one infinite , because infinite power , and infinite perfection , comprehends all power and perfection , and therefore it cannot be communicated to many , or more then one . Secondly , Their Rites and Ceremonies were so ridiculous , and so filthy , that the Apostle stiles them abominable Idolatries , 't is against the rules of Christian modesty , either to hear or speak of them . He that desires to see Paganism smartly and solidly confuted , let him peruse the antient Fathers , Lactantius , Arnobius , Minutius felix , Eusebius , Clemens Alexandrinus , St. Augustine de Civitate Dei , &c. Dub. I alwaies conceived Paganism , to be a most vain and vile superstition , contrary to the very light of nature , and I am no better perswaded of Mahometism , however I desire to hear your reasons against it . Firm. You may please to receive them thus ; my first reason shall be taken from the novelty of , it being not much above a Thousand years since that false Prophet Mahomet published his rapsody of nonsence , fabulous fictions , and damnable Blasphemys to the world . First , From which I thus argue , truth is before falsehood , Illud verum quod antiquum ; seeing the world is now above 5500 years old , and seeing Religion has been practised in it from the Creation , t is absurd to imagine , there was no true Religion before Mahomet , or that the infinite goodness and wisdom of God , should suffer gross errors to infect the whole world at least 3000 years before the true worship of his holy name was known unto men . Secondly , Mahometism is a mixture of Judaism , Heresy , and Paganism , with some sprinklings of Christianity , A bundle of ridiculous fables , prodigious lies , as is evident to any that shall peruse the Alcoran . Thirdly , 'T was propagated by the Sword , and such carnal weapons , by sensual motives , and promises of fleshly pleasures , to be injoyed by all those that should be followers of that grand impostor , which are so unworthy of the rational soul , that they cannot be called the cords of man , but are only proper allurements for those whose reason is sunk down into brutish sensuality . Dub. These reasons do sufficiently manifest the folly and falseness of this new or rather no Religion , but pray you inform me why you rank Judaism in the number of false religious , seeing t is grounded on the Scripturs of the Old Testament , which you beleive to be a divine Revelation . Firm. When I reckon Judaism amongst false Religions , I mean only that religion which is professed by the modern Jews , under & against the Gospel , not that which their forefathers under the law lived and died in . Since the fall of Adam unto the end of the world there was and shall be but one true Religion , consisting of Repentance from dead works , holy obedience , and faith in Jesus Christ ; so that the fathers before the law , the Israelites under the law , the Christians under the Gospel , were and are of one and the same Religion , for the substance of it ; 1 Cor. 10.1.2.3 . they did believe in Christ to come , the Christians do believe that he is already come ; to them he was vailed in Types and shadows ▪ to us he is revealed , and those shadows are vanished at the rising of the Sun of Righteousness with healing in his wings . Dub. By what you have said 't is evident , tha● all Religions that are and ever were in the world , ( except the Jewish under the law and the Christian under the Gospel , which are for substance the very same ) are utterly false , and consequently their pretended Revelations , on which they are built , the inventions of men and Satanical Delusions ; and that the Christian and the antient Jewish being the only true Religion , it must follow that the Old and New Testament is the only certain and divine Revelation ; your Argument appeares to be very concluding ; I pray you proceed . Firm. My second argument shall be taken from the excellency and reasonableness of Christian Religion . First . This Religion is most holy and spirituall ; resolving it selfe into most excellent principles and ends ; the Glorifying of God and humbling man , pointing out unto us the most divine and he●venly life in the love and service of our Creator , in the dedication and devotion of our souls unto him , in whom we live move and have our being , placing our felicity in spiritual , not in fleshly pleasurs , the rule of it ( being holy scripture ) contains laws most holy , most pure , most righteous . Let all the world if they can answer the chalenge made by Moses . Deu. 4.8 . what nation is there so great that has Statues and judgments so Righteous , as all the Law which is set before you this day ? which as to their clearness are highly improved under the Gospel , engaging us upon higher and more heavenly motives : those under the Law being for the most part Temporal ; to deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts , to live Soberly , Righteously , and Godly in this present world . Tit. 2. " 12. There is no virtue which Christian Religion commendeth not , no duty which it commandeth not , no vice , no sin , which it does not condemn ; no Religion , doth so much condemn Pride , worldly-mindedness , sensuality , filthy lusts , a poore , private , narrow Spirit , selfishness , as this , no Religion doth so much commend humility , meekness ▪ selfe-denyal , charity , peace , unity ; no ●eligion doth so much exalt reason above passion and sence , doth so much enoble the Spirit of man , making it to look upon the Riches honors pleasures of the world , as so many vain shadows , deluding dreams , transitory nothings ; the great design of it is not carnal and worldly , but high and heavenly , as to set forth t●e Glo●y of God , to lift up the Soul above the Cre●ture , to lead man by the way of holyness to everlasting happiness . This Religion gives us the highest motives for " the sincere practise of Piety , and all manner of virtuous living th●t possible c●n be , the pleasures of an holy life here , the enjoyment of eve●lasting happiness hereafter ; it gives the strongest reasons against the power o● temp●ation● , te●●hing us to mortifie the lusts of the flesh , an● to contemn the vanities of the world , putting the joyes of Heaven , the torments of Hell , the love of God in the ballance , against the ple●sures of sin , whi●h are no more then a feather to the massy glob of the earth . " Lastly , Christian Religion from holy Scripture , on which 't is founded , doth reve●l unto us the nature , attributes , and works of God , beyond all the Religions that ever were in the world ; how doth it magnifie and reconcile the justi●e and mercy of God towards sinful man ? How do●h it set forth the infinite power and wisdom of ●o● ▪ in making the world of nothing , in such an excellent form and beauty , which has drawn all ●o●sidering men into an admiration of the goodly fabrick of it ? Yet the must acute Philosophers were at a loss how and when 't was made , whether 't was from all eternity , or had a beginning in time ; whether 't was m●de of pr●existen● m●tter , o● of the fo●tuitous concourse of Atoms ; whi●h fond opinions deserve not any serious confutation . " But the holy Scripture doth ●le●rly solve all these doubts ▪ & is indeed the best Cōment on the book of Nature , and doth give such an account of the original of the world , the time and method of its production , the peopling of nations , the confusion of languages , the depravation of nature , which the Heathens understanding not , fancied two principals , one good , the other evil ; from which all the good and evil in the world did proceed . Mans recovery by the sacrificing of the Son of God , for want of the knowledge and belief thereof , all the bloody sacrifices practised by the Hea●hens , were meer Impostures , and ridiculous nothings ; these , and divers other mysteries far above mans capacity to devise , and not within the compass of natural corrupt reason , are made plain unto us by Scripture Revelation ; which does abundantly prove that none but an infinite God could be Authour of this Divine Revelation , of which those of the Heathens , & that of Mahomet , were " so many apish imitations & diabolical cheats . Dub. I am fully satisfied by the characters which you have given of the Religion in practise with the people of God ( especially with the Christians ) that the rule and measure of it must be from heaven & not from men , and consequently that all holy Scripture is divinely inspired , & is the word of the eternal God. Firm. I could further acquaint you with many mo●e reasons to confirm you in this great truth , which are common in every Authour that treats of it ; ●s namely the Antiquity of holy Scripture , some part of it being before all writings ; the continu●nce of it by an extraordinary providence , notwith●tanding the rage and malice of cruel bloody persecutors , the sincerity , impartiality , candour , simplicity of its writers , quibus nullum fuit mendac ii praemium , they had no earthly motives to perswade them to utter such forgeries ( as Atheist deem them to be ) nothing but bonds and imprisonments , losses of goods and lives . Again it must be acknowledged , that the Pen-men of the Scripture , were very good men , or very bad , ( for men of a cold indifferency they could not be . ) If they were very good men , they would never have conspired together , to put such a cheat , such a grand imposture upon the world ( as Anti-Scripturists would have the word of God to be . ) If very bad , they would never have wrot with so much zeal , and earnestness against all manner of wickedness , and especially , against Lying and Hypocrisie . Certainly they would never have exposed themselves , to hazard lives and fortunes for no other reward , then to be esteemed both Knaves and Fools by all prudent men . Add to this that Lyers and Cheats do not usually agree one with the other ; but there is such a sweet harmony & consent betwixt the Pen-men of Holy writ , tho they lived at so great a distance from one another , that questionless they were acted by one and the same infallible spirit . Lastly , The aversness , the slowness that is in our corrupt hearts to believe all that is written in the Law and the Prophets , Luke 24.25 . a●ising from that contrariety which is betwixt the holy and spiritual word of God , and our carnal and depraved minds , is no small proof of the truth of it , for 't is otherwise impossible to render any ration●l account , why we should doubt , or disbelieve this sacred word , and never once question the truth of ordinary and common Histories , which are conveyed down unto us , not with the tenth part of that evidence which we have of the truth of holy Scripture . But waving these reasons , I shall only mention Two of the best which are urged against Infidelity , to bring up the reer of my discourse . The First whereof shall be taken from the fulfilling of Prophesies ; the other from Miracles , which are the Seals of this our Magna Charta . Dub. Tho I am sufficiently confirmed in the truth of this great principle , by what you have already said , yet I would most gladly hear your Arguments from Prophesies and Miracles . Firm. First for Prophesies , I shall acquaint you with some few out of the Old Testament , to which your own reading may suggest many more , which were exactly fulfilled according as they were foretold . Dub. Did not Astrologers , and Heathen Oracles foretel many things that came to pass as they were foretold ? Firm. I grant it ; but hear what judgment a learned Heathen passes upon them . The Gods do foretel some natural things to come , for that they observe the order & conjunction of their natural causes , but of things that are contingent , or such as do depend upon the will of man , they have but conjectures and do often times lie , and deceive us in both kinds , for as natural things are variable so much more the will of man ; Porphyrius lib. de Resp. & ora● . cited by Parsons in his Resol . pag. 62. Dub. This testimony of Porphyrius being an Heathen and a great enemy to Christianity is very considerable , and experi●n●e shews it to be very true , for O●acles have de●eived many ; and we see that Astrologers ; can give no certain predictions concerning the weather which dep●nds upon natural causes ; and therefore I desire you to she● me , if you can , any Prophesies of Scripture , that are more certain . Firm. I shall begin with that of Abraham , concerning his posterities inheriting the Land of promise ; of their servitude in a strange Land ; of their mighty deliverance 400 years before it came to pass , you may for this compare , Cen. 15.13.14 . &c. with Exod. 12. Second , Iacob being in Egypt on his death bed , prophe●●ed thus of his ●on Iudah , that the Scepter should not depart from him , until Shilo came , which fell out accordingly at the birth of our Saviour , at which time the Scepter was in the h●nd of a stranger , Herod by name , and then , and not till then , it finally departed from Iuda . Third , 'T was Prophesied of Iosias ●00 years before he was born , that he should destroy the Altar at Bethel . 1. Kings . 13. which was exactly fullfilled . 2. Kings . 23. Fourth , You may see how punctual the Prophet Isaiah is in fortelling the nativity , the life , the passion of our blessed Saviou● , in so much that he writeth more like an Historian then a Prophet , as also how he foretells the destruction of Hier●salem , and the greivous Captivity of the Jews by , and under , the Babylonians , and then the destruction of the Babylonians and the rebuilding of Hierusalem , by Cyrus 200 years before he was born ; the same was foretold by Ieremy , about a 100 years after Isaiah , and these Prophecies were so famous , and so certainly believed , amongst the Jews in the time of their captivity , that when the time of their expiration drew near ; Daniel thus writeth of himself ; In the first year of Darius , I Daniel understood in the Scripture , the number of the 70 years , &c. Dan. 9.1 . Neither did the Jews only understand and believe this Prophecy , but Cyrus himselfe an Heathen : which was his great inducement to restore the Jews and rebuild the Temple at his own proper charges ; Ezra . 1. And Heathen Historians confess as much . Fifth , The Prophecy of Daniel , concerning the four great Monarchies , is so clear and evident , so distinctly described as if he had lived in them all , Dan. 2. and Dan. 8. how also he foretold the coming and suffering of the Messias after 70 weeks , cap. 9. many more of such Prophecies might be alleaged , but these are abundantly sufficient , to attest the divine authority of Scripture . Dub. T is very true if you could prove there were ever such Prophets , or Prophecys in the world . Firm. What proof do you expect ? will you believe nothing but what you see with your own eies ? Dub. That were irrational , if you can prove by a certain tradition , that there were ever such Prophecies , delivered by such men , as you name , I shall assent unto them . Firm. This I shall perform ; first from the whole nation of the Jews , which have delivered them from Father to Son , down along for many generation ; do you think that a people so carefull and diligent in the keeping and transcribing their records , could , or would agree together , upon no worldly interest at all , yea even to the hazard of their lives , and fortunes to abuse themselves and their posterity ? Dub. I confess 't is not very probable ; but have you any other proof , for the certainty of these Prophecyes ? Firm. Yes , From the Testimony of very Heathens : 'T is said by Iosephus . lib. 1 , de Antiq. Iud. cap. 4. that the publick writings of the Syreans , Chaldaeans , Ph●nicians , Graeci●ns , are sufficient to testifie the antiquity , truth , authority , and certainity , of Holy Scriptures , if there were no other proofe in the world beside . There is scarce a memorable passage in the Old Testament but 't is mentioned by some Heathen writer , as the Creation of the world , Noah's Flood , the Confusion of Tongues , the Children of Israels living in , and coming out of the land of Egyp● , the writings of Moses , the Babylonish Captivity , &c. as you may see in Euseb. Grotius , de verit Christ. Relig. Parsons Resol . Cap. 3. lib. 1. part . 1. Dub. Indeed a Testimony from an adversary is beyond all exception , I rest satisfied with what you have said , for the Authority of the Old Testament ; have you any thing to say for the New , more then what you have said in general for them both together ? Firm. Yes ; I have the miracles of our Saviour , and his blessed Apostles , wrought for the confirmation of what they taught , acknoledged by Heathens , Grotius de ver . Chris. Relig. Besides if you assent to the Divine Authority of the Old Testament , you must acknowledg the Divinity of the New , which is for the most part , nothing else but an explication of the Old , and the history of those Prophesies , now fullfilled , which were delivered by the Prophets , who lived in the time of the law . You may add to this the miraculous preservation of both Testaments , not withstanding the malice of persecuting Heathens ; who used all arts of cruelty to extinguish them ; the propagation of the Christian Religion , into so many parts of the prejudicating world , without , yea contrary to all carnal force and worldly inte●est , by a few simple unlearned men , which if t was done without a Miracle , was one of the greate●t Miracles that ever we read of . To this may be added the opposition of many subtil Hereticks , who never durst so much as question the Authority of the Scripture , but rather betook themselves to their own false glosses , that they might shift of those clear texts which made against them ; whereas it had been a more Compendious way to have utterly denyed them , if their impudence had been so great , as to oppose the general belief , of those times wherein they lived . Dub. Tho I am sufficiently convinced , of the divine Authority of the Scripture , and of the truth of those Miracles which were wronght by Christ and his Apostles for the confirmation of what they taught ; yet to remove all scruples that may be made against them , I shall desire to be more fully satisfied in two exceptions that are urged by Antiscripturists . 1. That they were no true Miracles . 2. That we have no certainty that there were ever such persons in the world as Christ and his Apostles , or that they ever wrought such mighty works as are recorded of them in the New Testament . Firm. That there were such persons in the world as Christ and his Apostles , that they wrought those Miracles which are mentioned in the History of them , both Jews and Gentiles , ( sworn enemies to Christianity , ) acknowledg , but besides their Testimony ( which being from adversaryes is v●●y cogent ) we have the tradition of the Catholick Church in all ages , and most places of the world , for 1600 years and upwards ; and as he that will go up by the side of the River will at last come to the head and fountain of it , so he that shall ascend through the several Centuries of the Church , will at last infallibly come to the head of it Christ Iesus ; to the place of his Nativity ; his Preaching and mighty Works that he did ; his bitter death and bloody passion ; or if he shall descend from Christ , through the same Centuries , down to this present time , he may be farr more certain , of the birth , and life , and works , and sufferings of this our bessed Saviour , of the writings of the Holy Evangelists , and Apostles , then that there have been such men in the world as Alexander the great , Iulius Caesar , Pompey , Scipio , Hannibal , of the Warrs , and noble Acheivements managed by them , of William the Conquerour , the Barons warrs , and yet none but a fool or a mad man , or one that has vowed to believe no farther then what he can see with his own eyes , will doubt of these ; for that the tradition which conveys the same of these Worthies , and their Actions down unto us , is nothing so general as that of the Catholick Church , neither is it at all practical , but purely historical , wherein we are not at all concerned , whether or no the things reported of those noble warriours be true or false . Dub. He that will not assent to what is delivered by universal Tradition , takes away the use of one of the most noble Sciences in the world , viz. History ; and wants rather a Cudgel then an Argu●ent to confute him . T is evident by undeniable tradition , that there were such persons as Christ and his Apostles , that thay did great and marveilous things , but how shall we know whether the works which they did were true miracles ? surely t is very difficult , to know what is true and what is an imposture . Firm. Thô at present this may appear difficult to you , yet I hope I shall make this difference as manifest to you , as is that which is betwixt Gold and drosse . And here I will not trouble you with the niceties of the schoolemen betwixt mirum & miraculum ; that a true miracle is arduum , insoli●um , supra vim naturae , hard , unusuall , and above the powèr of nature ; that it differs from a ●alse one in the efficient , material , and formall cause , which is ignotum per ignotius . But to wave such subtilties , a true miracle may be known from a false one , 1. By the successe ; as Exod. 7.12 . t is said Aarons rod swallowed up those of the sorcerers , and in the primitive times , t is cleare how the miracles wrought by the Apostles , swallowed up in effect all false ones , ●one by satan● Instruments ; how ( notwithstanding all those lying wonders , wrought by Simon Magus , Apollonius , and others the prejudicating world was brought over from Idolatry and superstition , to embrace poor persecuted Christianity , by those true miracles ▪ which otherwise had been the greatest miracle in the world . 2. A true miracle may be known from that which is a jugle or imposture , by the design or end of it , which is for the confirmation of a divine revelation , to bring men over to the worship of the true God , to propagate the true Religion , the end of false ones is to draw men from this worsh●p , which note of difference God himself has stamp'd upon false miracles , Deut. 13 ▪ Dub. But doe not you now run into the same erro●r which you so lately condemned in others ? for by what you have said I must first know which is the true Religion , before I can know which is a true miracle , and surely then there will be no use of miracles , to confirme me in the truth , of what I knew before . Firm. there is a mutuall confirmation , betwixt the true religion , and a true miracle ; true Religion does give light to miracles , these do seal and confirm that Religion . We see that all discursive knowledge , does arise from some precedent knowledge , untill we ascend to such principles , that are clear to the light of nature , now evident it is to natural reason , that there is a God , Creatour of all things ; that there is but one God , that this one God ought to be religiously worshipped , the intelligent and learned heathens , have acknowledged all these : Again 't is evident that there were never but four general Religions in the world , Paganisme , Turcisme , Judaisme and Christianity , and I think I have already made it manifest , that of all these Religions , none is so r●tional or such a reasonable service , as is that of the Christian ; which for the substance of it is the oldest of all others , being the same which was practised , by the fathers both before and after the flood , for the spirituality , morality , and unity of the God hea● worshipped , 't is excellent beyond all others , most agreeable to the Common principles and notices of the reasonable Soul. Here upon any serious sober man , may conclude that all these miracles which have been ●ttempted to draw men from Christianity , are but mere impostures , and those that have been wrought for the confirmation of it , wherein one true God of infinite majesty , wisdome , power , and glory , is worshipped in spirit and truth , are the only true miracles . Dub. Pray Sir excuse me this unnecessary trouble which I have given you ; for by what you had said before concerning , the supereminent excellency of the Christian Religion , above all others , I might have seen the force of your reasoning , which ( as I conceive stands thus ▪ If the Christian Religion be the only t●ue Religion then those miracles which were wrought for the Confirmation of it , are the only true miracles . Firm. You rightly conclude : I shall therefore proceed to the third note or marke of a true mir●cle , and that is the effect and consequent of such a miracle , which is the drawing of the mind from sin to God , the primitive Christians much insisted on this as an undoub●ed evidence of t●e miracles wrought by Christ , that they were done by divine power , because the effect that followed them was the worke of conversion of Sou●● from sin and Ido●s , to Go● and Christ ▪ and all true piety and holinesse of life ; they tended mainly to the overthrow of Satans Kingdome . Christ by his miracles did not only disposesse Satan out of mens bodies , but out of his Temples ; upon this accou●t he convinces the Scribes and Pharises , of most irrational blasphemy , when they objected against him , that he did cast out devills by the power of the devill ; but he replyed , every Kingdome divided against it selfe cannot stand . Mat. 12.25 . Beside● , Christs doctrine , which he confirmed by miracl●s , was in every thing cont●●●y to the devils d●sign ; which was to draw men from the worship of the true God , that himself might be worshiped , to insnare men in the practise of the greatest wickednesse under a pretence of Religion , as is very obse●vable in all heathen mysteries ; which indeed were very mysteries of iniquity , abominable Idolatry , not to be named to modest eares . Dr. Stillingfleets Orig. Sac. lib. 2. Cap. 10. 4. True miracles differ from diabolicall impostures in three particolars , 1. in the manner of their working , 2. their number , 3. the quality of ●hings wrought by them . 1. The impostares of Satan were done by a great deal o● pomp and Ceremony , magical rites , char●es and medicines : what Christ did was with a words speaking ▪ yea by the very touch o● his garm●●● . 2. For their number , those Satanicall jugli●gs were comparatively very few : there were not many that were cured by the devill and his instruments ; but Christ cured whole multitudes , and that not in the Revestryes of the te●ple , where fraud and imposture might be easily suspected , but in the presence of the people , Arno●ius's objection against the Gentiles is very rationall , what wonder is it to shew one or two cured ? when thousands lie continually in your temples languishing for want of cure , which 〈◊〉 e●en weary your God Escula●ius with pray●rs and teares , but could have no helpe ●rom him , with all their importunities . 3. For the quality of thing● pretended to be done by miracles ; the cures among the heathens were some slight things , in Comparison of those performed by Christ : what heathen jugler did ever open the eyes of any man that was born blind , make the dumb to speak , the lame to walke , or raise the dead by a words speaking , or by a touch of the hand ? See Dr. S●illingfl●ets book before cited . There is one other argument made use of by the learned Dr. Hammond , in his tract of the reasonablenesse of Christian Religion , ( which ● friend caused me to remember ) for the confirmation of the truth of this divine Revelation . This learned man proves the mission and doctrine of Jesus Christ , from that high testimony , wh●ch God the father gave him , by a voice from heaven , coming out of the midst of thunder ; which way of Revelation was known to the Jews by the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the daughter of a voice , and by this God did three times give testimony unto Christ , 1 immediatly after his baptism , 2. at his trans●iguration ; 3. a little before his death , and all in the p●esence of sufficient witnesses : this testimony of God the father given three severall times , d●d ●ully ratify the doctrine of Christ contained in the scriptures of the New Testament ; God gave ●he very same testimony to Moses and h●s doctrine , and ●hat in the sight and audience of many thousands . Exod. 19.16 . Thi● Mo●●s often reminds the people of , especiall● Deut. 4.32.33 . where he tells them that never any people did heare the voice of God , out of ●●e midst of the fire , as they had done and thi●●ay o●●e●●lation , seems to be so suitable to the 〈…〉 of almighty God , and so pecu●●●r ●o hi● , that the devill , who in other things , 〈◊〉 A●e never attempted to imitate God in t●● 〈◊〉 , nor do I believe ) he was ever a●●e . G●● h●ving restr●ined him by ●his omnipo●●●● 〈◊〉 ●nd re●erved this way of Revelation pe●●●● 〈…〉 . D●b . 〈◊〉 Disco●rse hath been so rationall , that 〈…〉 ( as ●g●ipp●● ) almost perswaded to be a 〈…〉 bu●●●together such as you are , as to 〈◊〉 ●wo great principle● of Christianity , concerni●g ●he being of God , and the Divine Authority ●f ●oly Scripture : and methinks I see all false Relig●●ns fall fl●t on their faces , before these great ●ru●hs , as Dagon did before the Arke . Firm. No marviell , for he that doth firmly believe that God is , and that the Scripture is his word , must needs abominate those false worships , which are ●o extreamly contrary to his divine nature , and his most sacred writ ; but seeing you are so well perswaded of these principles , I shall not trouble you with any more reasons for the confirmation of them ; onely if you shall hereafter meet with any scoffing Atheist or infidell that shall deny either of them , you may for conclusion of all , presse upon him this dilemma or forked argument . Either 't is true there is a God , and the Scripture is his word , or 't is not true : suppose these things be not true , yet thou believest them to be so , thou art onely in an errour for this short span of time ; but what if they prove , undoutedly true , and thou dost not believe them , to be so , then thou art eternally damned : now what a madness is it for any man , for the avoiding of a seeming temporary errour , to come within the danger of everlasting damnation ? Dub. This argument might startle any Atheist and make him consider with himselfe how sad his Condition will be , if these things be so as solid and undenyable reasons do demonstrate , and yet he should live and die an infidell . O what will become of such an one unto all eternity ? I am full of wonder and amazement , that seeing there are such convincing reasons against Atheism and infidelity , that there should be any such Creatures upon the face of the earth , when certainly there are none such in hell , for the devill believes and ●rembles . Firm. You will cease to wonder , when you shall rightly consider , the certain reasons of those grosse errours ; which are , 1. Drollery and foolish jesting , which renders men inconsiderate and mindlesse , even in the affaires of the world , much more in the things of eternity : a man that is given to Droll , and jest , is uncapable of any serious businesse . 2. Many men are men of short discourse , they do not understand the force of an argument , by reason of the weaknesse of their discursive faculty , which is altogether rusty for want of use , exercise , and ingenious education : though in the booke of nature , the eternall power and God-head of the Almighty , be wrote in large Characters , yet every one , cannot Read in that booke , no more then he that never went to schoole , can read the Primer , halfe psalter , or any book of the faire●t print . Dub. This is true of many simple and illiterate men ; that are very brutes , not at all to be distinguished from the beasts that perish , but by the erect figure of their bodies : their Rational soules , mean while being sunke downe into mere sensuality , such as have not God in all their thoughts , they trouble not themselves to think of him , either that he is , or is not : these digenerate Creatures do not concern themselves in matters of Religion ; but ( I hope ) you wil● not say that the witt● of the time , are such ignorant Animals . Firm. I shall not doubt to affirm it , and that for these reasons . 1. You may observe that these witty men are persons of no serious or solid judgments , especially in things of highest concernment : they are such as spend their time in idleness , Drollery , vain Recreations ; so that albeit the Lord has given them those two great bookes to read in , that of nature , and the holy scripture , yet they vouchsafe not to read or meditate upon either . 2. They are under a judiciall blindness ; God has given them reason and understanding , eyes that they might see , hearts that they might understand ; but they wilfully shut their eyes against that light , and then by the just judgment of Almighty God , this light is taken from them ; they are given up to blindness of mind , and hardness of heart , as were the antient heathens . Rom : 1. 3. Their lives are utterly contrary to the holy nature of God , to his sacred word : there is an antipathy , an emnity betwixt their Debaucheries , their filthiness , their profaneness , and his most holy laws , Rom. 8.7 . every line of it flyes in their faces , threatening them with hel and damnation : whereupon they cavil with , they quarrell against it , they wish there were neither God to punish , nor scripture to threaten Destruction against them , and so by insensible degrees , they are brought to think and say in their heart there is no God , as the foole did , Psal. 14. so true is that of the poet , quod nimis miseri volunt , hoc facile cr●dunt , the though●● and imaginations of wretched men are governed by their desires , they hate the light because their deeds are evil , though their understandings are convinced by unansweareable arguments , and reasons of the truth of these great principles , yet they will not believe them ; such is the perverseness of their will , that it either blinds their mind , or else draws them against self Conviction to believe a Lye , and to hold the conclusion , against the most evident proofes and premises . Dub. I am perswaded , that you have given very good reasons , why so many are Atheists and infidels , and that the cheifest of them are irreligious and prophane livers , that practical Atheisme is the greatest cause of that which i● dogmaticall or Atheism in opinion . 'T was the foole that said in his heart , there wa● no God : first he was a foole , i. e. a sinner , and very wicked , as he is discribed in that psalm ; and thence he proceeded Atheist : a foole in practise , and then a fool in judgment , for t is most certain , that a corrupt , and wicked life , is the true parent of ungodly and vile opinions , fro● which by Gods blessing upon your good endeavoures , I am now delivered , and am fully perswaded , that God is , and that he is a rewarder of all those that diligently seeke him , that the holy scripture is undoubtedly the word of God , and consequently that the Christian Religion , is the onely true religion , but observing that of those who profess this Religion , there are severall parties , and t is not unknown to you , that heretofore I have adhaered to the Church of Rome , I would willingly learn from you , which party , they of Rome or we of England be most Orthodox and Catholick . Firm : Your demand is rationall , I shall most willingly Gratifie you in it● o●ely you must give me leave to propose these Two questions to you , and let me receive your answ●r unto them at our next meeting . 1. What Inducements you had to turne to the Church of Rome ? 2. What Reasons you had to leave it ? Dub. You must give me leave also , to recollect my selfe , that I may be ●he better able , to give in my answer to your Quaeries . DIALOGVE III , Against POPERY . Firm. I Hope you have well considered of the questions which I lately proposed unto you . Dub. To the first I returne this answer , My reasons that induced me to adhere to the Church of Rome were these . 1. The Antiquity of that Church which has continued ever since the Apostles time , when by the testimony of St. Paul , her faith was spoken of throughout the world . Rom. 1.8 . 2. The universality of it ; no Church has spread it self , so farr and nere upon the face of the earth , as that of Rome . 3. Her consent in Doctrine with the primitive Church . 4. The unity of it , under one infallible head which cannot err in poynt of faith or manners . 5 The sanctity of it's Doctrine ; that 't is free from errour in matters of ●aith ; free from all immorality and improbity in point of manners . 6. The sanctity of life , in the authors , and first-fathers , of the Roman Religion : these were the chief motives that caused me to adhere to the Church of Rome . Firm. Indeed these are six of those 15 notes which Bella●mine Lib. 4. de not . Eccle. and others of his perswasion appropriate to that Church : but had you not some other inducements ? As first a vitious life , and the cheap and easy pardon of your Sins upon confession of them to a priest , his absolution and injunction of a pitifull pennance . 2dly , were you not under some discontent for your present low Condition ? or 3dly , were you not ambitious of preferment , deeming popery to be a ready way to it ? or 4thly , were you not tickled with the Cunning extolling of your excellent parts by some subtile Jesuite , lamenting your sad Condition , that a person o● so rare endowments , should be so miserably mistaken in the great concern of your Soule , perswading you that out of the Church there is no hope of salvation , and that you being no member of the Church of Rome , were past all peradventure out of the Church , and unlesse you returned to that Church , there could be no hope of your salvation ? or lastly before you set up for the Church of Rome , were you serious and conscientiou● in any Religion ? for 't is very easy for one that is of no Religion , that makes no conscienc● of his waies , being allured with the joye● of heaven , and affrighted with the terrours of Hell , to pitch upon any Religion , that confidently promises those , and as confidently a freedome from these : and we know that Priests and Jesuites want neither art nor impudence to perswa●e silly wretches , that hopes of Heaven , and deliverance from Hell are only to be found in their Church . Dub. Truely Sir I am verily perswaded , that many who have left your Church , and gone over to that of Rome , have stumbled at such straws : but you have known me long , to be a man of no vitious life , no male Content , not ambitious of honour or preferment , not apt to be paffed up with a proud conceit of mine own parts , not cold or carelesse in point of Religion ; but the chiefe reasons that moved me to goe over to the Church of Rome , were those before named , which made me believe that Church , to be the only true Catholick Church , out of which there could be no hope of salvation ; to these I beg your answer . Firm. And you shall have it . 1. The doctrine of the present Church of Rome which alone could denominate her ancient , Catholick , and Apostolicall , is in severall weighty points quite contrary to holy scripture , neither hath it the generall consent of the fathers and Doctors of the Catholick Church : the pr●sent Church of Rome , is no more like to what it once was , in the purest primitive times ▪ than an old decrepit man full of diseases , Gout , Stone , Palsy , Dropsy , Scurvey , Blindnesse , Deafnesse , Wrinkles , and a multitude of infirmities , is the same Strong , Handsome , Healthy Man , that he was when at twenty five or thirty years old . Dub. Thô I have sometimes much reverenced the Church of Rome , for her antiquity , yet now I begin to doubt that there are many diseases in the body of that Church , many wrinkles in her face , which were not from the beginning ▪ but not withstanding those infirmities , 't is the same true Church as 't was at the first plantation , as the old decrepite man is the same man that ever he was for substance . Firm. I deny not but that the Church of Rome is in some sence the same it first was , in respect of divers Articles it holds : but in respect of those gross errours , it now maintaines , 't is no more like what it was , then the old decrepite diseased man is like what he was in his younger dayes . Dub. Your comparison is very good and apposite to the present Church of Rome , which past dispute is full of dangerous and desperate diseases , as I in part do apprehend . I pray you proceed to my other motive . Firm. The Church of Rome , is not so universal as her disciples boast of , neither in respect of place or time . 1. 'T is the observation of a learned man , that if the world were divided into 30 parts , 19 of them are heathens , 6 Mahometans , and 5 Christians , of which the Papists are not the one halfe , as Mr. Breirwood in his Enquires does demonstrate . 2. As to the universality of time , the Church of Rome cannot deduce her present tenents , from the beginning of Christianity , through the several ages or Centuryes : that it has continued a Church , from the first preaching of the Gospell I deny not ; but that 't is the same for purity of Doctrine , as once it was , is most false : for the antient Church of Rome , never taught worshiping of images , praying to Saints , that monstrous transubstantiation , halfe Communion , Praier in an unknowne tongue , and many more Groundless fopperies , against Scripture , the general consent of fathers , common sence and reason . Dub. All this , I am inclined to believe : but how could these errours creepe into a Church , which did so punctually observe the traditions of their forefathers ? what the Church of Rome now believes and teaches , it received from the Church that was in the next age before it , that from the Church next before it , and so quite down to the Apostles times , as the Author of the Dialogues betwixt the Vnckle and the Nephew , hath most learnedly demonstra●ed . Firm. Truly very learnedly , even as Zeno proved there was no locall motion : you have heard how Diogenes confuted him by an ocular demonstration : were not the Scribes and Pharises great pretenders to a Strict observation of the traditions of their fathers ? And yet we know how grosly they had corrupted the law of Moses , as is evident by our Saviours confutation of them . Mat. 5. and in severall other places . Dr. Crakan●thorp and other Learned pr●●●stants do evidently shew , the beginning , the progress of the Corruptions of the Church of Rome , the manner of their spring and Growth ; but Suppose we cannot punctually t●ll , the beginning and progress of such and such an errour , shall we therefore believe it to be no errour you walk sometimes in the fields , 't is evident to your eyes that the Grasse a●d graine do grow , though you do not see them move at all ; sometimes you visit a friend that is sick of a languishing consumption , you see by infallible symptoms that your friend is in a desperate Condition , will you not believe him to be so , because you cannot tell the time when , or the manner how , his disease came upon him ? Dub I cannot be so unreasonable ; and by what you have said , my third reason falls to the Ground , for the present Church of Rome has no agreement with the primitive , but is extreamly opposite to it , in the points before named , besides many others ; I pray let me hear what you can say against their unity ; for they seem to be firmly united , under one infallible head the Pope . Firm. Truely Sir they do but seem so ; for they are miserably divided in the great fundamentall of their faith , their infallibility , and are not they very unjust to us to exact our beliefe , of that , which they themselves know not where to find ? for some of them tell us 't is fixed to the Popes chair ; some say 't is to be found in a Generall Councell , ot●●rs believe it to be in neither , but in both united together , others would perswade us that 't is in the whole body of the Church ; so that if you seek after this pretty knack of infallibillity ; you will be abused as young apprentices are used to be in great Cittys and corporations ; who in waggery , are sent from shop to shop for a penyworth of Ell-broad Packthred ; or a pound of stock-fish Tallow : or a Lefthanded Shuttle ; after these poore novices have been sent from one end of the Citty to the other , they returne home , without such ridiculous Commodities , and are sufficiently exposed to laughter and derision . There 's scarce a Controversy in all Bellarmin's voluminous workes wherein he recites not the different opinions of the Roman Catholicks among themselves , insomuch that this great Cardinals , workes were not to be bought in Rome ( as Sir Edw : Sandyes reports in his Europa speculum ) because he had so imprudently discovered , the nakednesse of his mother in point of unity . To say nothing of the contentions betwixt the Thomists and Scotists , Ochamists &c : 't is pleasant to see how sweetly the Dominicans , Franciscans Iesuites , Molinists , Iansenists , Regulars , and seculars agree together . Though a laté Pope durst be so bold as to decide a Controversy for the Molimists against the Iansenians , and so that which was none before , very luckily became an article of Faith ( such is the Popes omnipotent Power , that he can create Articles of Faith , out of that which was a pure no●-entity , a very nothing in the primitive times ) yet I heare that the Iansenists are so saucy as to continue very Iansenists still , notwithstanding his holinesses in●allible determination . Dub. I see there is no such unity in the Church of Rome , as they bragg of ; I desire to heare what you can say against the Sanctity of their Doctrine . Firm : the Sanctity of their Doctrine , referrs to that of Faith and Manners , for that of Faith , which is briefly comprehended in the Apostles Creed , or any other Doctrinall poynt contained in holy Scripture , expressly , or by good consequence deduced from thence by the generall consent of Fathers we allow of , but as for popish additions of new atticles , by Pope Pius the 4. and the councell of Tr●nt , that are against Scripture ; and can never be justified by the generall consent of the ancient Doctors of the Church ; we reject as false , and consequently not Holy ; this I suppose you will dem●ns●rate when you please to give me the reasons , which made you forsake the present Church of Rome As to their Sa●ctity of manners , their Doctrine is so farr from it , that the better sort of heathens would blush to own ; for brevity sake I shal● re●err you to the first and second part of the mistery of Jesuitisme , the Jesuites morralls set out b● a Sorbon Doctor , Mr. Fowles his History of the treasons and rebellions of these holy men ; the two former of these bookes assure us that by the Doctrine of probability , and a good intention , the fowlest Sins are at most but venial . Dub. The Jesuites are but one party in the Church of Rome , many o● their tenents and practises disclai●●d , by other of the papists , and therefore the whole Church is not chargeable with their errors . Firm. Untill that Church doth expresly Condemn th●m ▪ and Execute . Ecclesiasticall Censur●s upon such of her members , as do broach those damnable Doctrines , doth make them rec●nt , or excommunicate them , she is chargeable with them . Dub. I am of your opinion and do firmly believe the p●esent C●urch of Rome to be neither Holy n●● C●tholi●k , but an unsound member of that Church ; but what say you to the first ●ounde●s and ●athers of their Church , were not t●ey v●ry 〈◊〉 men ? Firm. ● B●llarmine could prove what he takes for gran●ed , that t●e Fathers and Founders o●●heir Chu●ch , as it now stands , were the ho●y Patriarchs , Prophets and Apostles , I should agree with him in that note , but the truth is they have no more right to call them their Fathers and Founders , then the Scribes and ●harisees had to ca●l Abraham their Father ; from whose faith they had so miserably declined ; the Fathers of the present Church of Rome , as 't is now , were the corrupt Councells , which were so many pack'd Juryes , and the popes ; of whose Sanctity you may consult Platina , who was a Papist . By what I have said ( I hope ) you are satisfied , that you had no justifyable reasons to adhere to the Church of Rome , as 't is now , so much declined from the Primitive ; let me know how and why you did forsake it . Dub. I am fully satisfied that the reasons , which drew me over to that Church were false and fallacious , and am now as much confirmed , that the reasons which made me leave her Communion are solid and demonstrative . 1. Which were her monstrous unnecessary imposible Doctrine of transubstantiation . Firm. How do you prove that to be unnecessary ? Dub. The change of the bread and wine into the very body and blood of Christ is unnecessary , because certain it is ( and they of the Church of Rome acknowledge it ) that there never was any such change in the Sacraments of ●he old Testament , neith●r is there any in the other six of the New , ( as the Papists are pleased to multiply them ; now if all other Sacraments without any such miraculous change , do attain their ends , for which they were instituted , why should it be required in the holy Eucharist ? why not rather in that of baptism ? why should not the baptismall water be changed into Christs very blood ? this being the Sacrament of Regeneration , that that of Nutrition ; surely as great a power and vertue is required , to regenerate and make a Christian , as to nourish and strengthen him . Again the faithful both before and under the law did eate and drink the body and blood of Christ , in a Spiritual manner , before he had either body or blood . They did eat the same Spiritual Meat and dranke the same Spiritual Drinke ; 1. Cor. 10.3 . what need is there then of a Transubstantiation ? If we seriously peruse the sixt Chapt : of St. Iohns Gospel , we may learne that the body of Christ is eaten and his blood dranke in a Spiritual manner , that when the Disciples murmured , at what our Saviour had delivered in the former verses , to satisfye them , he replyes that the words which he spake , were spirit and life : Ver. 63. and not to be understood according to their gross conception . I know some the Church of Rome affirm , that in ●hat Chapter , our blessed Saviour speaks not of a Sacramentall eating of the body of Christ ; but certainly is his body may be eaten , and his blood drank , without any such monstrous change by every true beleiver not Receiving , why may not he eat the body and drink the blood of Christ , without any substantiall change of the Bread and Wine when he receives ? besides ● most ( if not all ) of the ancient fathers , who held a necessity of giveing the Eucharist to infants , urge the 53. verse of this Chapter , for their opinion and practise , except yee Eat the Flesh of the Son of Man , and drink his Bloud , ye have no life in you , Surely therefore they conceived , that our Saviour meant by these words a Sacramentall eating , how then dare any of the Clergy of the Church of Rome , expound it otherwise , seeing they take an oath never to expound Scripture , but according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers : see the forma juramenti professionis fidei . Conc. Triden . Sess. 24. Cap. 4. de Reformatione . Firm. I very much approve your reason against the necessity of transubstantiation : Let me here from you why you tearme it monstrous , and impossible ? Dub. 'T is therefore monstrous and impossible , because it implyes Contradictions , and grosse absurdities 1. that a body is not a body ; an accident is not an accident , for if there should be such a change , the s●me numericall body of our Saviour , must be in Heaven and Earth , nay in ten thousand places at the same time , ●it must be extended and not extended , it must have dimensions and no dimensions , finite and not finite , which cannot be , no not by Gods omnipotent , and absolute power ; how do the schoolmens Noddles abound with nicetyes , quidditys , perseities , Chimaeras , to solve such incompossibilities ? 2. This strange Metamorphosis doth make accidents to be no accidents , it takes away the very being of them ; for accid●ntis esse , ●st in●sse , the being of an accident is in-being , here must be Colour , sapor , odor , quantity without a Subject , which is all one as if we should say a man might be a man without a reasonable Soule , In a word I would willingly learne , what does become of Christs Body , and Bloud after 't is received into the mouth , ( or if any prophane mouse should swallow part of it , or lick up a drop of the bloud ) and thence into the stomach , whether it be retransubstantiated into bread and wine , or else be converted by the concoctive , and nutritive faculty , into the body of the Communicant , as other nourishment is , and then t will necessarily follow , that Christs Body is essentially united unto , and made one with the Body of every Communicant , which borders very nere upon B●asphemy , for by this means Iames Nailer will ere long ( quod animus m●minisse horret ) be Jesus Christ. 3. This Transubstantiation ( if any such thing were possible ) is wrought by a miracle , but was ever any miracle done by Christ and his Apostles , which was not discernable by the sences ? when ●e cured the blind , the dumb , the lame , when he turned water into wine , was not this manifest to the Sight , the Smell , the Tast ? shall we think that the God of truth Gave to m●n five Scences , to deceive 4 of them by one pretended miracle ? or that 't is his method to informe the mind by Impostures ? if one or two or three Senses may be deceived , why not all ? then what will become of Romes orall Tradition ? for may not the eare be deceived as well as the eye ? the nose , the tast , the touch ? here are 4 Sences to one against that tradition , and then how are the papists certain of what they have received from the present Church , or how is shee certaine of what shee received from the Church immediatly before her ? is not the doctrine of Transubstantiation , which teaches men not to believe their eyes , and other of their Sences , a ready way to Atheism , and infidelity ? for if four of the five Sences may be deceived then farewell all tradition , and if these inferiour faculties , may be thus bafled , what satisfaction could it have been to St. Thomas that Christ was truly risen from the dead by putting his finger into the print of the nailes , or his hand into his side ? But beside what sence and reason , witness against this monstrous opinion , the Scripture is clearely opposite unto it , for Christ at the institution of this Sacrament , did not take his own Body into his hand● , but Bread , he brake not his owne Body , but Bread , he did not eat his own Body , he did not drinke his owne Blood , but he drank of the fruit of the Vine , Mat. 26.29 . for so he called it after Consecration and Distribution ; I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of the Vine &c. in like manner St. Paul. 'T is stil this bread and this cup. 1. Cor. 11.26 . When our Saviour saies ( Hoc est corpus meum ) what doth ( hoc ) stand for ? either it must signify this thing in my hand , ( i. e. ) the bread , or else his own body ▪ which body he holding in his hand , utters these words ( hoc est corpus meum ) that is corpus meum est corpus meum , a mere Identical trifleing proposition , which according to all Logick is most absurd , and destroys the very nature of a Sacrament , which consists of two essential parts the sign and the thing signified ; besides they of Rome con●ess that the Body of Christ , is not present under the species of Bread and Wine , when the Preist begins to pronounce ( hoc ) nor till he hath uttered the last sillable ( um ) hoc est corpus meum , such poore shifts these men are forced to use . As for antiquity , so much boasted of by those of Rome , I know that some of the fathers to draw mens minds from the earthly elements to heavenly misteries , used now and then high Rhetoricall expressions , never dreaming of any substantiall change of the elements into the Body and Bloud of Christ , as is evident from Iraeneus , Panis Communis post consecrationem , non est amplius panis communis , sed efficitur Eucharistia , quae constat ex duabus naturis terrenâ & cael●sti , haec oblatio ●st figura corporis & sanguinis Christi . Ambrose 1. ad Cor. Cap. 11. & lib. 4. de Sacram. Non dubitavit dominus dicere , hoc est corpus meum cum dedit fignum sui corporis . Aug : Epist : 23. ad Bonifa & 12. Cap. contra Adiman . Hoc est corpus meum i. e. typus corporis mei , Ter●ull . Panem & vinum Appellatione corporis & sanguinis honoravit , non naturam quidem mutans , sed naturae gratiam adjiciens . Theod. dial ▪ 1. & 2. In a word the ancient fathers , who opposed the Eutychian haeresy , did make use of the sacramentall union of Bread and Wine , to the body and blood of Christ , shewing that the humane nature of Christ is not more changed into the divine then the Sacramentall Bread and Wine is into the very Body and Blood of Christ , therefore they believed no such thing , as that monstrous Popish transubstantiation . So that we see the falsity and absurdity of it by Scripture , antiquity , common sence and reason ; besides the great danger of Idolatry , in worshipping a piece of bread , if there be no transubstantiation , as some of the papists themselves confesse , and they also acknowledge , that if the Priest , that consecrates were not rightly ordained , or that he did not actually intend to consecrate , or that he omitted any one Ceremony ( which they call necessary ) at the time of consecration , that the Bread and Wine are not duely Consecrated , and consequently no transubstantiation , and therefore great probability , that the Papists in worshipping the host , do frequently comitt the very great Sin of Idolatry , which was to me one great reason of forsaking their Communion . Firm. Truely 't was a substantiall reason , and such an one that has wrought upon others beside your selfe , however I desire to hear from you ; what further reasons , you had to leave the Church of Rome . Dub. The next which I shall acquaint you with is the half Communion so manifestly against scripture and antiquity . Our Blessed Saviour at the instituition of the Sacrament commands , drinke yee all of this , whereas at the giveing of the bread , he said only , take , Eate , foreseeing and obviating this grand error of the Church of Rome ; 't is true the persons then communicating , were only his disciples , which had received their Commissio● to preach the Gospell , before that time , but not in that ample and full manner , as they received it after his Resurection , as is plain from Iohn 20 , 22 , 23. and M●t. 28 , 29. but be it granted that they were all in full orders , and upon that account the Cup was given them , otherwise they should not have received it , by the same reason the bread might be denyed to the people , because none but Priests did then Communicate ; but we know that a Priest when he doth not consecrate , is in the place of a Lay-man , and consequently the disciples not consecrating at the Supper were no better , and therefore according to the doctrine , and practise of the Church of Rome , should not have received the Cup. But what will they thinke of the whole Church of Corinth , to whom St. Paul sent a first and second Epistle , they cannot imagine they were all Priests , observe then how ●e ●xhorts all of them , to examine themselves in order to the receiving of the holy Eucharist under both kinds . 1. Cor 11. this is so evi●ent that our adve●saries have nothing to Reply . As for Antiquity the practise of the C●urch of Rome is clearly against it , as Iam able to demonstrate , from express testimonies , of the fathers , but our learned writers have ●aved me that trouble , those that please may peruse Chami●re , Ch●mnitius , Iewell , Cracanthorp ; The confe●sion of the Councell of Co●stance stands as a lasting Monument against the Popish innovation in this particular ; the words are these , we decree in like manner , that though in the Primitive Church ▪ the holy Eucharist , was received under both kinds , by the faithfull , yet this Custome to avoid some dangers and scandals is reasonably introduced that it should be received by the Preists only in both kinds , by the people in one ; is not this with the Socinians to make the Sacraments mere indifferent Ceremonies , alter able at the Churches pleasure ? But the Councell of Trent flyes higher ; if any man shall say that all faithfull Christians ▪ by Gods Command , or for necessity of Salvation , ought to Receive the Sacrament in both kinds ▪ let him be acursed , I wonder whether Pope Gelasius , sate in , or was out of his infallible Chair , when he roundly said , we find that some do abstain from the Chalice of the Sacred Blood ; let them receive the entire Sacrament or be kept from the whole , because the division of one and the same mystery cannot be without grand Sacriledge . Either the Pope was not infallible , or the present Church of Rome is most Sacrilegious . Firm. You rightly Judge , and were their fancy of Transubstantiation true ( as nothing is more false and ridiculous ) yet were it not sufficient to debar the Laity of the Cup , because they receive the Blood of Christ with his Body , for this is not to drinke but to eat it , and besides the Sacrament is not a sign of his Blood in the veins , but as 't was shed and powred out ; might not the Preists as well receive his Blood , with his Body , and then 't were as superfluous for them to drin●e of the Cup , as for the people ; but I pray proceed in your reasons against Popery . Dub. My third reason is taken from the invocation of Saints departed ; which is against Scripture , and antiquity : 't is an attribute belonging to God alone , that ●he is a God hearing Prayers . 'T is a chiefe part of his worship , thou shalt Worship the Lord thy God , and him o●ely shalt thou Serve , it robs Christ of one part of his Preistly office who now sitts at Gods right hand , interceding for us , there is but one Mediator betwixt God and man , the man Christ I●sus , certainly is holy men , both before and under the law , prayed to God alone through faith in the promised seed or Messias , without invocateing any departed Saint , because there was none then ( as they of the Church of Rome confess , ) admitted to the beatifical vision , and consequently could not know the need or praiers of men upon earth , in the Glass of the Trinity , there is less reason now to make our adresses , to the spirits of just men made perfect , Christ himselfe sitting , at Gods right hand , and Interceding for us . Besides the worship of Angells is forbidden by St. Paul. Col. 2. and the Angell in the Revelation twice sorbade St. Iohn to worship him , Cap. 19. and 22 yea the worshippers of Angells were in the primitive times , branded with the title of haereticks , under the name of ( Angelici ) and therefore much less ought wee to worship the Saints departed , for certainely they being the more excellent Creatures , are much more capable of such worship then the soules of men , that are now in Abrahams bosome , in Paradise , not yet in that perfect bliss and glory , which they shall enjoy when their soules and bodies shall be reunited , but according to many of the fathers in a certaine and joyfull expectancy of it , after the last and finall judgment , where the place of their present abode is I shall tell you when ●he fathers are agreed about it . For this Saint worship certain it is there is no express Scripture , and 't is as certain there is no generall consent of antiquity , let any man peruse Mr. Meads excellent treatise of the Apostacy of the latter times , wherein 't is apparent how the Cannonizing of Saints in the Church of Rome , agrees with the heathens Apotheosis , their praying to them with the worshipping of Heroes , their Dij Medioxumi , their haveing severall Saints for Patrons of Particular Countryes , Trades and Callings , Phisitians for divers diseases , like the heathens Dij Tutelares , as may be seen in Chemnitius his examen and in other learned men . Firm. You need not spend more words about this grosse superstition , which is nothing else , but a mixture of Christianity , and Paganisme , and of all the errours of the Church of Rome , most dangerous , for the Lord our God is a jealous God , and will not suffer the honour and worship , that is due to him alone , to be given to any other . Dub. I shall submit to your advice , and proceed to a fourth reason against Popery , which is their adoration of images so much condemned in holy Scripture , what more expressly forbiden then image worship by the second Commandement ? which they of Rome have Cunningly left out in their mass books , offices , Primmers , and Catechism's , and without all shew of Reason , asserted it to be a positive Command , belonging onely to the Jews , how demonstratively is the fourth of Deutronomie against it from the 12 verse to the 18 ? many other texts might be urged to the same purpose , all which the Schoolmen endeavour to baffle , by their Pittifull distinctions ; betwixt an Image and an Idol , a picture upon a cloath and one ingraven in wood , or stone , betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which every Esurient Groeculus ; every mean Sciolist , will smile at , betwixt Mediatè , Relutivè , and Terminative , which a●e distinctions ( at least some of them ) without a difference , mere Chimericall phansies : if a man shall seriously peruse the 13 ▪ and 14. Chapters of the Book of Wisdome ( which at Rome is Canonicall Scripture ) and consider what answers the Heathens returned to those that objected against them their Idol worship , that they worship not the Image , but the ( Numen ) or divine power it represented , he will easily discern that the wiser sort of Heathens made as wise Appologies , for their Image worship ; as the wisest Papists do for theirs . As for the antiquity of this grosse superstition both Fathers & Councels are against it , as is evident from that excellent Homily of our Church concerning the perill of Idolatry , if it be replyed t were the images of the heathens they opposed , true 't is , for in the first ages of the Church there were no others , the Christians of those times , abominateing all image worship , but the reasons they give against the heathen Imagery wound the Church of Rome under the fifth rib ; no Christian Church did then use images in their oratoryes ; in after ages they were admitted only for an historicall use , as may be seen in St Gregories writings , who lived above 600 years after Christ , true 't is by the Second Nicene Councell their worship was decreed ; and so this iniquity was established by a law , such a one as that packed convention could legitimate , and hence forward not only the pictures of Saints , but of God himself and of the Blessed Trinity were set up in Churches , which was an high dishonour to the Glorious Majesty of the Almighty , to be portraid like an old Man , and gave an occasion to ignorant people to conceive him to be so indeed , hence I have heard some of them say , when they swore ( by God ) that they swore by a good Man , by which 't is evident , how the grosse superstition of the Church of Rome , hath crooked silly Souls , and that all such images , are teachers of Lies , very vanities , as the Scripture shews and reason demonstrates . For to say nothing of the Blasphemous images of God the Father , and the holy Trinity , doth not the image of any Saint , whom these pseudo-Catholicks worship , lie to their imaginations ? representing that which is not ; for nothing but the Soules , and Spirits of those Saints do now remain , so that whilest they picture and worship them in bodily shapes , which pictures represent , what is not , they worship they know not what , praying onely to the Soules of Saints , yet phansying them in bodily shapes as when they lived here on earth : how doth it concern all Serious Christians , to beware of the Religious worship of any creature of Gods or mans makeing ? of Angell , Saint , or Image , which is so expressly forbidden in the word of God ? And surely if we might worship the picture of a man , which is mans Creature , 't were much more rational to worship a true man , yea the Son , Moon and Starrs , and all th● host of heaven , they being all of them the Creatures of Almighty God. Firm. You rightly conclude , were not a judiciall blindness , upon the eyes of our adversaries , they could not be Guilty of so dangerous a suspition . Dub. I shall trouble you but with one reason more for my forsakeing the Church of Rome , which was breifely their praiers in an unknown tongue , a practise , manifestly contrary to plain Scripture , and the antient Doctors of the Church , a most unreasonable service , opposite to that which we are to perform to Almight● God ; 'T is so bafled by St. Paul , that all the learned ●en of the Roman party have nothing of sence or reason to answer , and as for antiquity 't was not so much as thought upon , in the first ages in the Church , the Liturgies then every where were in the known and vulgar tongue , otherwise how should the unlearned say ( Amen . ) The practise of the Church of Rome is in this ▪ as in divers other of their fopperyes , a very mistery of iniquity , I could heartily wish ; that for the undeceiveing of ignorant Papists ; their Missales , Pontifical's , Breviaryes , Lady Psaltres &c. were translated into the English and other vulgar tongues , that such poore deluded soules might see to what absurd prayers they say ( Amen ) to what childish ridiculous Ceremonies they ●ubmit . I might here add the vain Reptitions , of so many Ave-Maria's , & Pater-noster's , upon their beads , their saying of them at certain houres as a Pensum , or taske , or a Pennance to make a Compensation for their sins , rather then as a willing serious duty from the heart and soule ; which is not Religious praying , but a Childish saying of prayers , a vain heathenish babling , after the manner of an old wises charm ; resting in the work done ; as if the bare saying of prayers , without any intention of the mind , were the only end of praying , or the effectuall ●erven● prayer of a Righteous man. Iam. 5.16 . I might also add their cheating Purgatory , their purchasing of pardons , and indulgences , for sins past , and for many hundred yeares to come , by sums of money sett downe in the Tax booke of their Chancery , their Pilgrimages , and bodily Severityes to expiate for the sins of their soules , their allowing of Brothell houses to Grati●ye the unmarried Clergy , and others in their unclean Lusts , for which the Pope receives a lu●ty Pension . But to deale truely with you no one thing wrought a greater dislike of Popery in me then their barbarous bloody Cruel●y , towards those that they please to call Haereticks , their savage inquisition , their Parisian , Irish , and other massacres , their marian Butcherings , their intended matchless powder treason , their poysoning and stabing of kings , their Justifieing of Rebellion and all manner of wickedness , by their right intention , and Doctrine of probability as is to be seen in the first and second part of the mistery of Jesuitisme , in the Jesuites Morralls ; can such Villany ▪ such Cruelty and Christianity stand together ? did Christ and his Apostles propagate the Gospel with such Carnall weapons ? how severely does our Saviour rebuke his angry disciples , when they would have called for fire from heaven to destroy the uncivill Schismatical Samaritans ? y●e know not what spirit yee are of , for the son of man is not come to d●stroy mens lives ▪ but to save them ; Luk. 9.55 . O that Christs pretending Vicar had the spirit of the meeke and holy Jesus . These Sir , were the reasons which moved me to forsake the Communion of the Church of Rome , for upon this account I could not believe her to be the Catholick Church , or any sound part of it , but a very Schismatical Haeretical one , that had departed exceeding much from Primitive Christianity from the faith that was once delivered to the Sain●s . Firm. You have given very sufficient reasons ▪ for your departure from that unsound Church , which may satisfie any serious ▪ considering Christian , and you have saved me the trouble of any further addition to them ; I am now fully perswaded that you are neither Atheist , Infidel , or Papist ; pray you let me know what is your present perswasion , and what Church you most ●pprove . Dub. Truely Sir there are so many sects amongst the Protestants , that I am in no small doubt , with which of them to hold Commuion ; but my inclination leads me chiefly , to returne to my old Mother the Church of England , from which most unhappily ( as I am now convinced ) I heretofore separated ; however for the remov●l of some scruples , which yet remain with me , ● earnestly desire you to give your selfe the trouble of a short discourse , concerning the severall sects now in England . Firm. I shall most ●readily gratifie you In this your very reasonable request , nothing doubting but that I shall , by Gods Gratious assi●tance ) remove all your scruples , and fix you a true son of that Church , which is the most Catholick Apostolical Church now exstant in all the world , which those that do acknowledge the holy Script●re to be the infallible word of God , the perfect Rule of all the substantialls of Christianity both for faith and manners , and have some competent knowledge in the records of antiquity , ( the want of which is one great cause of h●resy and schism ) , as to be able to trace Christian Religion , through the severall ages of the Church from the Apostles down to these presen● times , I say those that do acknowledge these things cannot doubt of . Dub. You much confirm me in what I have often heard from grave and learned men , that one great cause of errours in Religion , is ignorance in the writings of the ancient Doctors of the Church , Councels , and Ecclesiasticall histories , this is not every mans work that have neither books to read nor brains to understand them . and that t●e surest way to be an Orthodox Christian , is by studying descendendo beginning with the records of the first century , then discending to the second , thence to the third , and so on to the succeding ages of the Church , whereby he will perceive how the true Religion has been handed downe from one age to another , and how and when , this or that errour sprang up ; as he ●hat sails down some great and clear pure river , may easily perceive , where little Rivuletts , and puddles , have run into it , and have muddyed , and troubled the Cleare● Stream . Firm. I much approve of what you say concerning the rise and cause of errours in Religion , the chiefe reason of them is ignorance in the records of Antiquity , and holy Scriptures , and want of orderly proceeding in our studies from age to age ; whereby we may easily perceive , how and when the puddles & corrupt rivule●s of errour have troubled the purer stream of Christianity , and you may without much labour perceive that if you had been well instructed , in the being and Attributes of Almighty God , in a firm beliefe of his most sacred word , you had never fallen into those most dangerous errours of Popery , Quakerism or o● any such pernicous sect . Dub. I do confesse my error , and especially that I was so great a stranger , not onely to the writings of the fathers , but to the holy Scripture it selfe , which I did too much neglect and scorn , but seeing by Gods blessing , upon your endeavours , I am fully satisfied of the vanity , absurdity , and falshood of Atheism ; infidelity , and Popery ; if you please to give your self th●t trouble , we will proceed in our discourse concerning Quakerism , Anabaptism , Independency , and Presbytery , I shall not trouble you with any other sect , because they are all included in some one of these , or at least are so vain and ridiculous , that we should do them to much honour , if we should gratifie them with a sober and serious confutation . Firm. I shall most willingly embrace your proposall ▪ and if it please you we will proceed to Quakerism , the errour which you embraced immediatly before , you turned Papist , and in truth 't is a faire introduction to Popery , and by many grosse errours which the Quakers embrace , 't is as evident as the light at noon day , who were the fathers of those spurious brats . Dub. This is a very truth ; the Quakers holding many things which are maintained by Papists , we may easily know whose Children these poor deluded Souls are , and the Corespondence betwixt them , made my passage to Rome more ready and easy . DIALOGVE IV Against QVAKERISM . Firm. You have informed me in our last discourse that being sometime a quaker you had a ready way open to become a Papist . I pray tell me why and how you turned a quaker . Dub. You put me hard to it . for I can give yo● no ver● good reasons for that change , and those that moved me are so ridiculous , that I am almost ashamed to name them , yet such as they are I shall give you the trouble of hearing them , I am almost perswaded , that the man that perverted me , used some enchantments and Diabolicall arts . so that I was rather bewitched . then rationally perswaded , to be of that party , ( as I have heard some have been ) but because I am not certain of this , I shall wave it , and shew you my reasons . 1. I observed that the cause why there were so many sects and schisms in the world , was for want of a certain infallible rule to guide us in our judgments and practises . as I was made believe , and I was perswaded that the Quakers had such a rule , to wit , the light within them . 2. I observed these men to be very demure in their carriage , very austere in their lives , sober and temp●●●t● , of afflicted dejected countenances ▪ very punctuall and just in their dealings , not abating one fart●ing of the price of any commodity they first demanded ; gre●t contemners of the world , no respecters of any mans person how great soever ; so meeke , humble and lowly in their apparell and behavior that they cannot endure the wearing of gold-rings , silver or silks in themselves or any others , and if any man should strike them on the one cheek , these poore innocent soules were so farr from revenge that they would turne the other , so that I conceiued them to be so many Nathaniels so many true Israelites in whom there was no guile . Firm. How could you be deceived by such painted sepulchers ? what could you see more in them then what was conspicuous in the Scribes and Phari●ees of old ? take i● for an infalible rule , that whosoever hold or practise any thing which is contrary to the law of nature and good manners , expresse Scripture , the usages of all sober and civill people in the world , are so farr from being true Christians that they are not worthy the name of men . Dub. I am fully of your perswasion that these men hold and practise many things which are contrary to the law of nature , good manners and holy Scripture , but for my farther satisfaction , let us discourse some of their tenents and practises . Firm. For their tenents you may at your leisure peruse the Synopsis of Quakerisme wrote by Mr. Danson . The heads whereof are breifly these taken out of their owne writings , which are a mixture of Popery and Socinianisme ; as . 1. They affirm that there are not three persons in the Trinity . 2. That Christ did not make satisfaction for the sins of men . 3. That justification is not by imputed righteousness , but that our owne inhaerent righteousness , and good works is the cause of our justification . 4. That a state of perfection and freedome from sin is attainable in this life . 5. That there is a light in every man sufficient to guide him to salvation . 6. That the Scripture is not the word of God , or a standing rule of faith and manners . 7. That there is no resurrection of the dead . 8. That there is no need or use of ordinances , as Baptisme and the Lords Supper , 9. That 't is unlawfull to take an oath before a Magistrate upon any account whatsoever . Dub. I know these and many more to be the positions of quakers and that they are directly contrary to sacred Schripture ; Firm. These things are so clearly confuted by the expresse word of God and tradition of the Catholick Church , that 't is superfluous to trouble you with any further discourse about them . As for their practises they are extreamly opposite to all good manners , and the Civilities of a●l Nations that are not grosly barbarous , as well as ●o the holy Scripture ; and whereas you have observed their carriages to be very demure , austere , and that they are of a sad countenance ; 't is no more then what our blessed Saviour reproved in the Scribes and Pharisees long since , indeed to be sad and mourn in times of publick Humiliation , Calamities and great Judgements is Christian ; but to be constanly so , savours too much of the Pharisee , and is contrary to holy Scripture which instructs us , there is a time to Laugh as well as to Weepe , there is nothing which more delights and cheers the heart then the exercise of a good Conscience towards God and Man , and we know a merry heart maketh a cheerefull countenance , whereas a sad soure face a hanging downe look too much resemble Caines Mark , and is a very probable signe of a disquieted , discontented , guilty , troubled , if not a malitious minde . Dub. I am much of your judgment , but I pray you tell me what do you ●hink of their denying all civil respect either in word or gesture to their equals and superiours ? Firm. This practise of theirs is against the v●ry law and light of nature as well as plain Scripture , a meere levelling devise of their seducers ( the Popish Priests and Jesuits ) to make a confusion among us , to destroy all goverment , to take away all honor and respect which is due to our superiours , for what honor and reverence has that man in his heart towards them who will express none in his words or gestures according to the laudable custome of the country where he dwels ? Dub. Truly I have often admired at the uncivil behaviour of quakers in saying ( thou and thee ) to their betters in not bowing the knee or putting of the hat to their superiors . Firm. You might well wonder at such barbarous uncivil carriage , but pray you tell me what think you of their pitching a certain price upon their commodities of which they will not abate one farthing , was not that a certain sign● of their honest and upright dealing ? Dub. I confe●s I once thought so , but afterwards I considerd that a man may cheat and co●en in few words as well as in many , and I believe that these men most of them are a● great cheat● as any in the world . Firm. and I pray you what think you of their other rare quali●ies before mentioned ? Dub. I did once believe them to be great contemners of the world , meek , humble , lowly , &c. but 't is evident they are quite contrary to what they seem to be . 1. For I know that most of them are extreamly coveteous and narrow breasted , without all bowels of pitty or mercy towards those that want , unless they be of that fanatick party ; which is meer faction , no Christian Charity at all ; and whereas many of them have been known to have been persons of mean fortunes at first they are now rich and wealthy , and none of them ( though very poore before they turned quakers ) now in a necessitous condition , being maintained as 't is very probable by their new Masters the Iesuits , a very rich and opulent society , who make more Proselites by the length of their purse strings then by the strength of argument , or personated Mimical gestures . 2. As for their humility and lowliness , 't is evident they shew no such virtues in their carriage towards their betters ; their contempt of gold-rings , silver-lace and rich attire , is no infallible proof of their humility ; Diogenes may be as proud in his tub as Alexander in his palace , he may trample upon Platos pride with greater pride ; as haughty a spirit may be hid under a plain country russet , as under the richest ●ables . Firm. No question ; but what do you think of their meekness and mildness , that they will rather suffer an hundred injuries then revenge one , that they will not take armes to offend the enemy or defend themselves or their country , are not these rare signes of Christian meekness ? Dub. I see you are now in jest ; you know ttha time was when they did take up arms in an hostile manner against the King and his Loyal subjects , and if they had a fair opportunity they would do the like again , and appear as cruel and bloody as ever did Anabaptist fifth Monarchy-man or Iesuite . Firm. I confess that many of them were in armes under Cromwel against the royal party ; the light within them did warrant them to rebel against their lawful Soveraign , but now the light within them shews that 't is not lawful to resist Magistrates by carnal weapons . Dub. You are pleased to make your self mercy with these mens bare-fac't hypocricy , what a jugles this light within them ? more unconstant then that of the moon , a meere phansy , a Diabolical suggestion ; the Divil suits his tentations according as opportunities present themselves , when there is good probability of prevailing by rebellion and treason , then the light ( or rather darkness within them ) suggests unto them , 't is lawful to take up arms , to plunder and murder their fellow subjects , yea the King himself , but when there is no probability to prosper by such villanous enterprises , then that light within them perswades them to be as quiet as Lambs , as innocent as so many pretty Pigeons . Firm. Of a truth , this light by which they are guided , is the very blackness of darkness , nothing but a groundless fancy , which any man in the world may as well pretend for his rule as thes● Phanaticks ; when several Sects are contending , shall the light within them be the Umpire ? When the Anabaptists fift Monarchy men , and diverse other Sects contend for their several opinions , whether are they to go but to the Law and to the Testimony ? If they speak not according to this word , 't is because there is no light in them . Esai . 8.20 . Dub. I have much wondered that any men should be so much deluded by their vain imaginations , as to measure their opinions and practises by so uncertain , so unconstant a guide as the light within them , which is so frequently beclouded by pride , ignorance , interest , passion , humor , and Singularity . Firm. You need not wonder , if you shall seriously consider that they who flatte● themselves , that they are in a state of perfection , that they cannot sin , are above ordinances , that cast off fear , and restrain prayer , Job . 15.4 . should fall into the snare of the Devil , and lye under a judicial blindnes● . And that they do so , seems very probable by what one Tolderfee of Lemster , in the Country of Hereford relates of himself , in his recantation of Quaquerism● . I have heard also of divers of these seduced wretches , that at their meetings , before they utterred their Enthusiasms , have swollen so much they have been re●dy to burst , And 't is too evident that the brethren of the Rosy C●oss , have a great influence upon them : and it is upon Record at Bristol , That before there was any Quaker in that City , Two Franciscans did foretell to one Mr. Cowlishaw an Ironmonger there , ( whose oath is to be seen upon the Register ) That within eighteen daies Quaquerism should be set up in Bristol , which came to pass accodingly : And besides all this a Popish Priest bragged in my hearing th●t he had been a speaker at their meetings ; by all which 't is evident whose Disciples these silly fools are . For your further confirmation you may peruse Mr. Prin's Quakers unmasked . Dr Stilling-fleets against the Idolatry of Rome , and Fryer Barbanson , who above Two hundred years since laid the ground work of this Sect in a Book whose Title is occul●ae Divini amoris semitae . Dub. I am fully satisfied concerning the folly and madness of this Phanaticism , and from whence it sprang ; please you we will discourse of Anabaptisme ; pray you what do you think of that ? DIALOGVE V. against Anabaptisme . Firm. ANabaptism is a most carnal and bloody Sect , as appears by the History of Iohn of Leiden , Knipperdoling , wrot by Sleiden and Bullenger . Dub. But what do you think of their opnion ●oncerning Inf●nt Baptism ? I shall not trouble you with other of their Tenents , which are common to them with other Schismaticks . Firm. That Opinion of theirs is contrary to Scripture , and the practise of the Catholick Church . Dub. I have often he●rd them say , That if there were any express Text in Scripture for the Baptisi●g of Infants , they would allow of that practise Firm. Though there be no express place in Scripture for it , as there was for Circumcising of Children under the law yet there are many Texts which do infer it by rational consequence . What express Text is there for the Communicating of Woemen ? which nevertheless the Anabaptists practise ; have they not express Texts for obeying the Civil Magistrate ? for taking an Oath before him ; thou shalt swear , the Lord liveth in justice , in judgment , and truth . Thou shalt fear the Lord and swear by his name . I call God for a rec●rd upon my Soul ; an Oath for Confirmation is ( not was ) an end of all strife . And we have the Angel in the Revelation ( which was never under the Levitical law ) swearing . Yo● see here are express Texts for obedience to Magistrates , and for taking an Oath before them ; yet the Anabaptists will not swear at all , which is a moral duty enjoyned in the third Cōmandment ; and how obedient they are to the Supream powers let Germany and England witness in our ●ate Civil Wars , so that you may see that if there were an express Text for Infant Baptism , they would not yeild unto it but follow their own wild imaginations . Dub. Doubtless 't is grand hypocrisy to call for express Texts for Infants-Baptism , and yet to act directly against such Texts in other points of Necessary duty . Firm. True it is we have no express Texts for Infants-Baptism , yet we have many that do necessarily infer it , as that of our Savio●r suffer little Children ●o come unto me which he took in his Arms and Blessed , certainly those that were capable of his blessing , were capable of the seal of it . The children of believers are said to be holy : The promise is to you and to your children : Go teach all nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost . All which places evidently shew that the children of believing Christians have as much right to baptism , as the children of the Jews had to Circumcision : unless we should say that the Lord was more gratious to the Jews then he is to us Christians , and that the hand of his mercy is shortned to us , which was so much stretched out to them . If their Children were in Covenant with God , ( as it is evident they were ) Deut. 29.11 . then are the Children of Christians under the same priviledge , unless any man can give a good reason to the contrary , which must be drawn either frō the Mercy , or Judgment of God : There is no shew of reason to say 't was from his Judgment , much less from his Mercy , for who dare say 't is a mercy not to be in Covenant with God ? To these Texts of Scripture , we may add the practise of the Catholick Church for Fifteen hundred years , as appears by the writers in their several Centuries , which is the best Commentary upon the Scripture . The Fathers who lived in the first ages of the Church had a fairer o●po●tunity to understand the meaning of the Apo●tles , and their immediate successors , then we that live at so great a distance . Tertullian one of the most Ancient of them confesseth the practise of Infant Baptism , tho he does not approv● it . Cyprian and Fidus would never have contende● about the ●ircumstance of time , if they had doubted of the lawfulness of the thing . I m●y add to what has been said ; Either the Baptising of Infants is a small error , or 't is a great and gross one : if i● be but a small error , an error of Charity towards poor Infants , why did the Ana●ap●i●ts in the late times of confusion , separate from those Churches which did not impose it as a necessary con●ition of Communion with them ? If it be a great and gross one , then the Catholick Church has maintained a gross error for Fifteen hundred years and upward . How then was that promise made good unto it , that Christs spirit should lead it into all truth and that the gates of Hell should not prevail against it ? Dub. Indeed those Texts of Scripture so well explained by the practise of the Catholick Church ●or so many years since the time of the Apostles , is an evident argument for the proof of Infant Baptism ; but are you certain that Infant Baptism was practised in the Primitive times ? Firm. We are most certain from the writings of the Fathers in those times . Irenaeus , lib. 2. cap. 39. Origen . lib. 5. in cap. 6. ad Rom. Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 8. ad ●idum . Hieronymus lib. 3. contra Pelagianos . Nazian . Ora●iones in sacrum lavacrum . Basil Orat. Exhort . ad Baptismum . Chrisost. Homil. 1. ad Neophyr . Augustine lib. 10. de Gen. cap. 23. The custome of Baptising Infants is an Apostolical Tradition , lib. 4. de Baptismo cap. 24. idem aff●rmat Prosper . lib. 22. de Vocatione Ge●tium , cap. 8. These three Fathers making use of the Baptising of Infants as an argument against the Pelagians , who denyed Original Sin , which practise of Infant Baptism these subtile Hereticks durst never deny , because they knew 't was the practise of the Catholick Church . Dub. 'T is strange th●t so m●ny Testimonies of the Antient Doctors of the Church , with such evident places of Scripture before allegd , should not silence these perverse men . Firm. By terming them perverse , you render a just reason why neither Scripture , nor Fathers , nor Arguments ●ill satisfie them ; few of this Sect , ( or indeed of any other ) are Le●rned , except it be their Leaders , ( Popish Priests and Jesuits ) which spread such errors by design to make divisions among us , that they might ●eign . Now 't is no strang thing to see ignorance and perversness to dwell under the ●ame roof ; for whosoever is capable of Conviction must have some knowledg and reason , that he may be able to understand the force of an argument when 't is proposed unto him , as seduced Sectaries ( being men of very short discourse ) do not . Besides that little portion of reason which remains in them is so beclouded with sel●conceit , interest , and faction , prejudice , pride , and uncharitableness , th●t they have utterly lo●t all use of it . He that doubts of this , let him discourse either with Quaker , or Anabaptist , and he will find them a very proud , ignorant , conceited , perverse people . Dub. I have sufficient experience of their Pride and Perversness ; but leaving them to their own simple fancyes & Enthusiasms , let us proceed to the Presbyterians , to which party I first adhered when I forsook the Church of England , and and of all dissenters from th●t Church , in my opinion , they have the greatest shew of reason for their separation . Firm. In my judgment they have less reason to separate then any other , because they agree with us in Doctrinals , and are divided from us because of some Ceremonies , which are confessedly things indifferent ; and for some modes of Government , viz. the Episcopal and Presbyterian , of which , tho the former be the best , and most antient , yet learned and most moderate men of both parties , do acknowledg , that neither of these Forms of Government , are so essential to the being of a Church , but that it may subsist and be a true Church under either of them , potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse , but more of this hereafter : But before we begin our discourse about Presbyterie , let us speak a few things concerning Independency , for I have heard that you were somtimes of that perswasion . Dub. True , I was once an Independent , or Congregational man , bu● seeing all Sectaries are in respect of Church fellowship Independe●ts , and that these men for the most part have the same objections against the Church of England as the Independents make use of , I thought it superfluous to trouble you with any particular discourse ●oncerning them . Firm. There are Three things belonging to Independency , which we have not discoursed upon as yet , neither will they properly fall under debate in our intended Dialogue about Presbyterie ; if you please we will take a breif survey of them . Dub. I willingly embrace this motion . DIALOGUE VI Against Independency . Firm. THe first thing that I except against in the Independency , is the goverment practised in their particular Congregations , without any jurisdiction one over another , so that every of their Assemblies , is absolute within it self , without depending upon any Classical , Diocesian , Provincial , National Church , or general Counsel , whence they have the name of Independents . Dub. Is it true that they will no● admit o● any Superior power over their respective Congreg●tions , nor appeal in case of divisions among themselves , unjust and injurious sentences given in their partial Judicatories . Firm. They admit of no appeals , or no coercive po●er over them in any Consistories , Classis , or Counsel ; One Congregational ●hurch may advise , exhort , or admonish another as brethren , or equals , but not punish or correct as Judges o● Superiors ; What do you say to this new knack of Church Government . Dub. I think it to be Anarchical and confused , the Natural Parent of all Schisms and Hereses ; I do not no● so much wonder how England of late years , since this headless faction prevaild amongst us , became a second Amsterdam . What error what heresy so gross , so damnable , what injustice , what oppression never so greivous which might not go unpunisht in such assemblys from which there lies no appeal ? how must they be broken into infinite fractions , especially where the fear of a Common enemy does not unite and peice them together ? Firm. You rightly apprehend ; for all these dangers and inconveniences , are the necessary , consequents of Independent Congregations where any Popish Wolf in Sheeps Cloathing has a fair opportunity to sow the seeds of Anabaptism , Quaquerism , Socianism , or any poysonous Heresy whatsoever , to spread the principles of Sedetion , and treason ; as has been of late to much practised in this Nation , & I wish such Tares be not still scattered in our separating Conventicles to this very day . 'T was the observation of Sir Rob. Cotton above three-score yea●s since that Priests and Jesuits did put on the habits of Captains , Merchants , &c. that that they might deceive poor ignorant people under that disguise , opera Posthu . Pag. 148. Dub. You have said enough against this headless Church Goverment , and the sad consequences of it . I pray you proceed to the second thing you promised to debate concerning Independency ▪ Firm. The second error does concern tiths , which generaly the Independents ( with other sectarys ) would perswade the world are a great oppression upon the people , meerly Levitical and not due or lawfull under the Gospel . Dub. I desire to hear from you what may be replyed to these cavils , for I believe they are no better . Firm. The paying of Tiths is no oppression upon the people , no injury to them at all , for if no free-holder , Farmer or Tenant whatsoever ha's any legal or equitable right ●r title to the tenth part by purchase , donation , inheritance , lease , or by any other imaginable conveiance : then the paying of Tiths can be no injury at all , but the free holder , Farmer , or Purchaser ha's no legal right to the tenth part , no more then the Minister has to the other nine , because for many hundred years it has been invested in the Church by as good laws as any layman has right or title to the free hold Farm or lease which he has Purchased or pays rent for ; so that the tenth part cannot discend to any m●n by inheritance , gift or puchase , neither does any Tenant , pay one Penny of rent to his Land lord for that part of the increase of Fruits , Grain , Grass or any other Commodity whatsoever . Dub. Truly Sir , I have heard as much ; and if Tithes were taken from the Church , no question Landlords would raise their Rents and Fines and Purchasers would quickly find the price of land rais'd proportionably to a tenth part . Firm. This is so plain that nothing but gross ignorance , Envy and Malice against the Clergy can entertain the least doubt of it . Dub. Sir , you put me in mind of one thing which I have often thought upon , and much wonderd at ; that generally those that go under the n●me of Protestants in your Church , have little respect for their Ministers : whereas Papists and Presbyterians shew great respect to theirs . Firm. You need not wonder at it , the true reason of this contempt is for want of Zeale to that Religion which th●y profess ; where●s Papists and Presbyterians are Zealous in theirs . But your meer formal Protestants ( of which number there are too many ) is a formal nothing one that is so far from the power of Godliness , that he has not the naked formality of it : Now there cannot be a greater sign of an irreligious Atheist , then contempt of the Clergy , for where they are despised , God cannot be honoured nor Religion had in esteem ; if the Gentleman that has assigned reasons for the Contempt of the Clergy had thought on this , t' would have been worth all the reasons in his whole Book , but it may be he was so much a stranger to his own heart , that he thought not of it . Dub. But are not many Ministers themselves a chief cause that they are so contemned ? Firm. I was about to tell you so ; 't is much to be be wailed that too many in holy orders are through ignorance , negligence in the duties of their calling , loosness in their lives and conversations very scandalous , the greatest Nonconformists of all others , not true to our Church and her injunctions in the most weighty matters , placing all their Conformity in outward Ceremonies , and neglecting what is most necessary for their own salvation , and of those poor Souls which are committed to their charge , which are in great danger to perish through the ignorance , negligence and evil example of such blind guids . Dub. But is not the poverty of many of them and the poor pittances allotted for their subsistence as great a cause of their contempt as any ? Firm. 'T is very true ; and 't were a work worthy of the Defendor of the Faith , and a Religious Parliament to redress this very great grievance , by uniting Little Churches , by finding out some effectual means for restoring of Impropriate Tithes and Glebs to their respective Ministers ; which Impropriations are the very dregs of Popery , and a grand Sacriledge in any one that shall detain them from the Church . Dub. I do a little wonder why you should c●ll Impropriations Popish , seeing many of those who took up arms against King Charles the First , di● it upon th● account of opposing Popery , and hindering the gro●th of i● in this ●●nd , and yet some of them are no ●mall I●p●op●ia●ors . Firm. Certainly there was never a more manifest peic● of hypocrisy in the world , for men to be so seemingly zealous against the superstitions of Rome , and yet be so deeply in love with her Sacriledge . Sur●ly there is some marvellous sweetness in Tiths and Church lands , that prelatical , Presbyte●ians , all parties can swallow down such morsels without any scruple : but let them take heed they prove not like that little Book , Rev. 10.9 . sweet to the palate , but bitter in the belly . Dub. Indeed I have heard that the Popes of Rome were the first and cheifest Authors of Impropriations , and that they did alienate Ti●hs and Glebes from their respected Parish Churches for the maintenance of Abbies , Priories , Nunneries , &c. Firm. 'T is ve●y certain that these alienations were made by the Authority of the Bishop of Rome for those uses , and at the demolishing of those places , those Impropriate Tiths and Church lands , were either given or sold to Courtiers and other of the Nobility and Gentry , which has proved the ruine of many Antient and flourishing Families , and a very great hinderance to the growth of Religion for want of an able Ministry in many poor Parishes , where according to the old saying Scandalous livings have made a scandalous Clergy ; and nothing would be a more effectual redress of this grievance , then ( as was said before ) the Uniting of litle Parishes , the restoring of Impropriate Tiths and Glebes to the Church ; together with a diligent inspection of the Bishops into the lives and learning of all those whom they shall either Ordain , or Institute . Dub. I am fully perswaded , that the paying of Tiths is no oppression or injury to any man ; but the Independents , and other Sectaries imagine that Tiths are a Levitical maintenance , and therefore to be abrogated under the Gospel ; that Ministers now are to be maintain'd by a voluntary Contribution , or at best to have a set stipend . Firm. That Tiths received not their beginning from the Levitical Law , is evident to any unbyased judgment , from the example of Abrahams paying them to Melchisedeck ; of Iacobs vowing to give the Tenth of all that the Lord should bless him with ; from the Apostles large discourse about Abraham and Melchisedeck , Heb. 7. By all which 't is evident that Tiths had not their Original from the Levitical ●aw , and were not at first affixt to the Ar●nical , but to the Melchisedechian Priesthood . As to that of Stipend and Voluntary Contribution , 't is a meer plot of the Devil , and Popish Emissaries , to render Ministers contemptible , by ●aking them Stipendiaries , or Eleemosynaries , directly contrary to what St. Paul has laid down , The Elders that rule well are worthy of double honor ; which sufficiently evinceth , that they ought to have an honorable maintainance , and not to depend upon the cold and frozen Charity of the people , ( I am sure St. Paul found his Corinthians very backward to supply the Ministers necessity in better times then these we live in ) like so many Stipendaries , or Alms-men , by which they will be force● to Preach placentia , or starve , and suit their Doctrine to the humor of every Mechanick . What a strange piece of non-sense is it , that amongst our Congregational men , the Minister should be the only poor Dependent ? 'T is most certain and evident to all that can make use of their reason , that Gods way for the Ministers maintenance is the best , which both before , and under the Law given by Moses , was by Tiths , at least by God's approving of Ab●aham's paying them to Melchisedeck . ' ●was strongly insinuated , that the great Lord of Heaven and Earth would in after times order and appoint that Tiths should be the maintenance for the Priest and Levite ; which has continued for many hundreds of years under the Gospel , and there are many fair proofs from holy Scripture , that they are due by Divine Right ; they are established by Civil and Ecclesiastical Laws , are the most convenient and rational way for the Ministers support , who by this meanes , when the earth brings forth plen●ifully shares with the people in that blessing ; when less fruitfully as in times of scarcity , suffers with them in this Calamity , and thus partaking with them in blessings and affli●●ions will be the fitter to Stir them up thankfulne●s● for the one , and to press upon them the great duties of Patience and Humiliation under the other Dub. I did not doubt of the lawfulness and reasonableness of Tiths before we entred upon this discourse but now there is not the least scruple in me concerning them . Firm. Therefore let us now proceed to another gross error maintaind by the Independents and other Sectaries , about the electing of gifted Brethren into the office of Ministers . Dub. That any gifted Brother any one that perswades himself that he has the Spirit , and through a strong imagination conceives himself fit to Speak in the Congregation , may without any farther tryal , or lawfull call take upon him the office of Publick Preaching and Ministring in the Congregation ( which is the most sacred and weighty of of all other ) This is nothing less then a presumptuous usruping of the Priests office . This I know to be the Opinion and practise of Independents and other Sectareis ; let me have your judgment of it . Firm. That you shall most willingly . And herein my judgment is that this is one of the most wild and Fanatick opinions , that ever entred into the minds of men ; that it opens a wide gap to all Schisms and Heresies , a certain cause of all manner of disorder and confusions in the Church : upon this account , Priests and Jesuits , and all manner of Sectaries , have had so fair an opp●rtunity to vent their poysonous Tenents in the●● Independent Congregations . Dub. I am fully perswaded that Shisms and Heresies are the necessary consequents of mens invading the Ministry without regular Ordination . But for my better satisfaction , I pray you let me understand the reasons that make against this Independent practise . Firm. My Reasons are these ; drawn First from plain Scripture , as Ierem. 14.14 . and 23.21 . where there is a complaint against those Prophets That Prophesied lyes in Gods name , and he sent them not . And again the same Prophet , I have not sent these Prophets , and yet they ran ; I have not spoken unto them , and yet they Prophesied , therefore they shall not profit these people at all . Neither was this Sending and Calling a necessary requisite only under the Law , but also in the time of the Gospel . The first that were ever called and sent to preach the glad tidings of the kingdom of Heaven , were the Apostles , who were first Disciples to the best of Masters , before they were sent out to Preach . First Qualified fo● the work , and then Sent. So upon the treason and death of Iudas , Matthias was made an Apostle in his place , but by Election and Ordination . Acts 1. Heb. 5. No man must take this hono● upon him but he that is called of God ; either immediately , or by the Governors of the Church ; and hereupon it was that St. Paul left Timothy at Ephesus , and Titus at Creete , to Ordain Elders in every Citty , instructing them how the Priests and Deacons ought to be qualified . 'T is well worth our observation how the Apostle makes the salvation of men to depend ordinarily upon the Preaching of Sent and Called Ministers ; Rom. 10. Whosoever calleth upon th● name of the Lord he shall be saved ; but such Calling presupposeth Believing , Hearing , Preaching , Sending ; how shall they Preach , except they be sent ? Dub. 'T is evident by the Scriptures , both of the Old and New Testament : That no man ought to take upon him the Office of a Minister , before he has a lawful Call from the Church , or can by working Miracles make it appear , that he is immediately called from God , which is not now to be expected . Firm. And 't is as evident from the practise of the Church from the time of the Apostles , even to this present age ; for he that shall peruse her Records shall find that whosoever did presume to take upon himself the office of publick Preaching , or Administation of the Sacraments , without an extraordinary Call , arrested by Miracles , or an ordinary one from the Governors of the Church , was ever accounted a Theif and a Robber , no true Shephard that entred in at the Church door , but crept in , or climb'd up some other way . And hereupon Tertullian complains , That in their Heretical Conventicles their Women were bold pratlers , they did preach , dispute , baptize ; meer Laicks ; did usurp the Priests office , by which means , instead of converting Heathens , they did pervert Christians . St. Hierom also in an Epistle to Paulinus , complains , That every one did presume to interpret holy Scripture ; prating old women , doting old men , Husbandmen , Masons , Iacks of all trades ; even as it has been in this divided Nation ; Trades-men , Shoemakers , ●oblers , Glovers , Taylors , have skip'd from the Shop to the Pulpit , and have left stitching of graments , to make a rent in the Church . Dub. There is no ingenuous man that is acquainted with the Tenents of Anabaptists and Quakers , that will deny , that our Sectaries have sharpned their Tools , which they have used against us , at the Forges of these Philistins . Have you any thing else to object aginst these Schismatick practices ? Firm. Yes , The prudential order which is used in all other callings ; the ablest Lawer , Gentleman , Soldier , mu●● not execute the office of a Judge Justice of Peace , Commander in war without a Commission ; a Student in Physick cannot practise without a Linence ; no man can set up his Trade in a well Governd Corporation untill he has serv'd out his App●entiship , and is made a Freeman . Such excellent order is observd in Civil aff●irs ; but in the great concerns of the Church , there should b● nothing but confusion , if these men might be sufferd to act according to their irrational and extravagant Phansies . Dub. 'T is most apparent that their actions are against Scripture , the practise of the Cartholick Church , and the dictates of reason ; which no Christian , no Sober man will contradict . Therefore let us leave this headless Faction , and discourse about Presbytery which has the most plausible reasons for its Nonconformity to our Church , of any other that do seperate from us . DIALOGVE VII . Against Presbytery . Firm. . THe first step you made out of our Church ( as I have heard ) was unto Presbyterie ; I desire to know the reasons why you left our Communion , and made choice of theirs ? Dub. I confess the first step I made out of the Church of England , was into the Tents of Presbyterie , thence to the Independents , and so to the Anabaptists , and at last I became little better then an Atheist , as I before have declared . Thus unh●ppy man as I was , being out of the true Church , I was like Noah's Dove out of the Ark ; fluttering over the Floods of E●rors , and boi●terous waves of Shism● , Factions , and Heresies , finding no firm land for the sole of my foot to rest upon . Firm. This was not your case alone , but of many ●n un●table soul , th●t in those la●e times of Rebellion , & confusion , Eph. 4. has been blown about with every wind of doctri●e by the sleight of men , ( Jesuits , Priest , and Socintans ) and their cunning craftines● , whereby they hav● lain in wait to deceive . An ●●ence it was th●t the Prophet David's curse fell he●vy upon them : for they have fallen from one wickedness to another ; from one wicked opinion to a s●●ond , a third , &c. till at length they have turned Seekers , Scepticks , Atheists , and Scoffers at all Religion . Dub. This was once my condition , but praised be the Lord , who has brought my foot out of the snare . I have by his blessing shaked off all those wild and groundless fancies , and am more then half perswaded that the Church of England , is one of the mo●t Orthodox , Apostolical Churches under the cope of Heaven . However for my better confirmation , let me hear your answers to those exceptions which the Presbyterians have urged , against her goverment by Arch-Bishops , Bishops , Deans and Chapters , her Lyturgie , her set Forms of Prayer , her Ceremonies , her receiving persons of scandalous lives , and grosly ignorant in the principles of Religion , to the holy Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ. These were the great scandals at which I somtimes stumbled and fell from the Communion of the Church , into the Congregation of our Classical Brethren . Firm. I shall mos● willingly give in my answer to those exceptions , in that order you have ranked them . Therefore in the first place , let me hear what you can object against our Bishops . Dub. I have been told , They are Antchristian , not heard of in the Primitive times . Such Plants as our Heavenly Father hath not planted , and therefore to be rooted out . Firm. True 't is , such dirt has been cast upon that Sacred Order by ignorant and discontented persons ; such an one was Aerius the first Anti-Episcopal man we read of ; but this groundless opinion is abundantly confuted by the Testimony of holy Scripture , by the practise of the ●niversal Church ; attested by the general consent of Fathers and Councels , as you may see in Dr. Hammond's book against Blondel ; Dr. Taylor 's treatise of the Divine right of Episcopacy , with many others . First , The Scripture is clean for differrent Orders in the Clergy . Our blessed Saviour besides his Seaventy Disciples , had his Twelve Apostles , which were superior to them , as is evident by the chusing of Matthias into the place of Iudas ; from the example of Timothy and Titus , the one a ●ishop of Creet , the other of Ephesus ; by the general consent of Antiquity , in those and other Churches . In that once famous Church of Rome , we have the Catalogue of those Bishops which presided there , about Thirty of them suffering Martyrdom for the Testimony of our Lord Jesus . What should I mention the Angels of the Seaven Asiatick Churches ? which by the general consent of the F●thers , were the Bishops of those Churches ; nay St. Hierome himself ( no good friend to this Order ) does acknowledg , That when Christians began to he divided , one being of Paul , an other of Cephas , to prevent such Schisms , there past an vniversal Decree throughout the world , Th●t Bishops should be setled in every Citty , who should govern with the Common Councel of the Bresbyters ; and that one of the Bresbyters should be elected and set over the rest , for taking away the seeds of Schism . Dub. I am very well perswaded , by what you have said , that the Primitive goverment of the Church , was by Bishops , with the assistance of the Presbyterie , who had authority over the Presbyters , and were their superiors . But I pray you satisfie me in this one thing . Why did St. Paul so sh●rply reprove the Corinthians , for not excommunicating the Incestuous Person , if they had no authority so to do without a Bishop ? Firm. This at the first sight seems to be a very smart objection : but if we seriously consider the words upon which 't is grounded , it has no weight at all . The Text that is cited to prove it is . 1. Corinth . 5.2 . Ye are puffed up , and have not rather mourned , that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you . Where the Apostle reproves them for want of humiliation , for so soul a sin , not for the neglect of Excommunication . He that had committed that great sin , was to be taken away , or cut off from the ●hurch , but they themselves could not exclude him , but this was to be done by the Spirit of St. Paul , verse 3 , 4. in whom the power of Jurisdiction was originally ●eated ; there being then no Bishop of Corinth ; for evident it is , that in those Churches , where there were no Bishops , the Apostles kept the power of Jurisdiction in their own hands , until Bishops were setled among them , as is manifest in the Churches of Ephesus and Creet . Neither can it ever be proved that Bresbyters ( as such ) had any Jurisdiction belonging to the publick goverment of the Church , but by particular Substitution and Delegation from the Apostles , and Bishops , and no● by virtue of their own Order . Dub. I am very well satisfied , both from Scripture , and the general practise of the Church ( which is the best Comment on the Text ) That Episcopacy is an Apostolical Institution : and I confess I am much confirm'd in this perswasion , by Gods blessing upon our English Bishops and Episcopal men ; such as Cranmer , Ridley , Iewel , Carlton , Abbots , Morton , Andrews , Vsher , ( who of English extraction ) Hall , Laud , and Sanderson , Hooker , Cracanthorp , Iackson , &c. whose profound Learning and Piety , has given the greatest wounds to the Church of Rome , that ever she received ●rom any Protestant writers ; and their judicious works have been the strongest sence against Popery , Heresie , Rebellion and Schism , that the Christian world can ever boast of . Firm. I much rejoyce that you have so good an opinion of our Bishops and Episcopal men ; I hope the Authority of these renowned Worthies will weigh much with you in our following discourses . We will now , if you please , proceed to your exceptions against Deans and Chapters , you shall find all those Learned men before mentioned , and many more your opposites in this your second exception , as well as in the former . Dub. 'T is probable I shall , however that I may receive full satisfaction from you , give me leave to propose some doubts and scruples which I have against them . As 1. They were not from the Beginning , but as it were of yesterday . 2. They seem to be very useless , serving only to maintain the pride and grandure of many idle drones . 3. Many poor Parochial Churches are rob'd of their Tiths and Glebs to maintain such lazy Ministers . 4. Their Vicars Choral , and Singing-men are many of them of no very commendable conversation , have little sense , or relish of Religion . 5. Their Toning of Prayers , their Chore service is like a Latine Masse , not understood by the people . 6. Their Organs , and other Musical Instruments are Levitical , utterly unlawful under the Gospel . Firm. You may think these are such knots which admit of no easy solution ; but I shall presently make you understand the contrary . First , I shall shew you that Cathedrals , Deans and Chapters , ( though not under those names ) were from the beginning of Christianity . It is clear from the Acts of the Apostles , and the Records of the Church , that the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ( those spiritual Fishermen ) cast in their nets where they were like to make the greatest and most advantegious draughts . They usually Preached in the most Populous Citys , where they established Churches which anon after were called Mother-Churches , to which the Suburbican , or those that dwelt in the adjacent Villages were subject , and with the Mother-Churches made up the Bishops Diocess , which they governed ( as St. Hirome confesses ) by the common councel and assistance of Presbiters , termed at Rome in after times Cardinals , or chief Presbiters , and in the time of Charles the great ( as the Magdeburgenses inform us ) were incorpated into a Colledge under the name of Dem and Chapter ; the Dean by the Canon-law being called Arch-Presbiter . Before the sounding of Universsitys , these Cathedrals were the Schools of the Prophets , where young Students were train'd up in the Study of Divinity and other good learning ; Gerard gives us a tast of their first institution , their corruption , and how they might be restored to their primitive uses . I could wish that some learned Person who has the advantage of Books , and well Studyed men to consult with , and leisure , ( all which we Country Ministers are deprived of ) would write in the Vindication of Cathedrals , and manifest to this invidious age , that the institution of Deans and Chapters is very usefull to the Church , and very Antient , as I before intim●ted ( although under other names : ) and I do somwhat wonder that neither Bishop , Dean , or Ganon ( so far as I know ) has hitherto vindicated these Churches , from those reproaches which have been cast upon them , by ignorant , spitefull , sacrilegious persons . † Dub. But do not we see that Bishops , Deans and Canons , do not joyn together in the goverment of the Church , but rather are at variance and oppose one another , are mostly Non-resident , keep not that Hospitality which their Predecessors usually did ? and therefore they being thus useless , 't were fit their lands were sold and imployed to better purposes . Firm. This was your second exception against Cathedrals , but a very frivelous one , drawn from the worst Topick , from personal abuses , to take a way the true use of the thing it selfe . This is meer Clowns Logick and makes as much against Parish Churche● , Schools , Universities and all Courts of Justice , as against Cathedrals . The abuses ought to be taken away ; I am as much for a reformation as any man , but not for an extirpation . If Bishops , Deans , and Chapters , do not joyn together in the Goverment of the Church , 't is the fault of their Persons not of their Institution . Deans and Canons ought to be of Councel to the Bishop in a subordinate way ; not to have cordinate power and Authority with him . If they are too much guilty of non-residence , ( as it cannot be denyed but that many of them are , ) this ought to be reformd by Mulcts and Punishments , but especially by those that have the power of collating those dignities , that they do not confer them upon any person that lives out of the Diocess , or at too great a distance from the Cathedral , which is a very great abuse and wants Reformation . As for the keeping of Hospitality , the cavil is just the same which the Egiptyans had against the Isralits , for not fulfilling their tale of Brick , when they denyed them straw to make it . Sacrilegious hands have Robbed Cathedrals of many of their rich Mannors , and how should it be possible for Deans and Prebends to maintain that Hospitality which their Predecessors heretofore have kept . I know a Canon , of one of the most Auntient Cathedrals in England , that his necessary expences in his Residence , & journeys , being deducted , did not receive de claro five pounds yearly , for seven years in twelve . Now according to the law of God and nature , Families , Wives , and Children must be provided for ; and how can such necessary provision and any considerable Hospitality stand together , out of an Hundred Marks or an Hundred Pounds of yeary Income ; which is more then some Cathedral Residentaries do receive to my knowledge ? I wish that those of the Gentry who have their Thousands of yearly Revenues would forbear their squandring away of their Rich Patrymonies in vanities and very sinful courses , that they would keep Hospitality and Residence , upon their own Rich Mannors , amongst their poor Tenants and Neighbours who eat the Bread of carefulness , and then they might with greater confidence c●vil at the non-residence and w●nt of Hospitality in the ●lergy . The best way to pull out the Moth which they discover in the Churches eye , is first of ●ll to cast out the Beam which is in their own eye . Second , Whereas you object , that Cathedral dignities are made subservient to the pride and luxury of the Idle and lazy Ministers ; my reply shall be very short . If any such be ●rept into such places I shall not be their advocate , but be ready to throw the first Stone at them . But I pray you do not cast such dirt upon those who have laboured in the word and doctrine , but esteem them worthy of double honor , however the infirmities of old age , have now seized upon them ; dimness of sight , weakness of memory , an hoarse voice , and feeble lungs . If these Cathedral perferments be great encouragements to younger men , ( which none but Fools and Sacrilegious persons will deny : ) VVhy may not such places , be as so many Ecclesiastical Hospitals for these ( Milites emiriti ) old souldiers of Jesus Christ ? who have war'd a good warfare , and though now they are less able to teach in the Pulpit , yet may they instruct out of it , by their grave and exemplary lives , and sage councels . 1. Tim. 5.17 . Let the Elders that rule well ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be worthy of double honor . Dub. I beg your pardon for those hasty words that dropt from me against Cathedrals , I clearly understand they are not so useless as the ignorance , envy , and malice of some men would render them . Let me hear from you how you can vindicate them from defrauding Parochial Churches of their Tithes and Glebs , by appropriating them to themselves . Firm. This exception cannot totally be avoided ; yet Cathedrals are not so much in fault as the Supream power of the land , which took away their rich Mannors , and gave them in their stead lean and scandalous Impropriations , which ( as some say ) was done in policy to prevent their total abolition , which fate Abbies and Priories had lately sufferred under ; for those rich Mannors being exchanged for poor Impropriations , Cathedrals were not now so sweet and lushious morsels to sacrilegious palates . Dub. But is there no meanes to augment the maintenance of those Churches whose Tithes are Impropriate to Cathedrals ! Firm. At his Majesties happy Restauration , there was a fair opportunity which offerred it self , the like we cannot expect . How easie had it been then to have setled a competent maintenance upon most Churches in the Nation ? Some augmentations by his Majesties appointment were then made , I wish there had been more : I know no other way to redress this grievance , but by annexing some Prebends unto the Vicaridges of these Impropriated Churches , which might be done in Cathedrals of the old Foundation , where there are minor Prebendaries distinct from Residentiaries , mean while those Parochial Churches are supplyed mostly by the Vicars Choral , whose maintenance from their Colledge and privy Tithes , received from those Churches where they serve , is not contemptible . I wish 't were better , and that some of them , by their industry and conscientious diligence in their Ministry did deserve a better subsistance , at which wish no man can take exceptions , but he that is guilty of ignorance or negligence in the duty of his calling , which is his fault in being so , and not mine in wishing it should be otherwise . Dub. I perceive by your discourse that 't is rather the unhappiness , then the fault of Cathedrals that Parochial Tithes are appropriated unto them ; but certainly i● Canons Residentiaries were Beneficed in , or near the Citties where Cathedrals are scituate , and a competent maintenance allowed them from the respective Cittizens , the Vicars Choral ( those of them who are not Preachers ) might assist as Curates , for Baptizings , Burials , and other inferiour Offices , and so by the continual residence of the Bishops , Deanes , Canons and Vicars Choral , the Chore service , Preaching Catechizing , Church discipline , and Goverment might be much better performed then now it is , and those scandals and reproaches which are so frequently cast upon Cathedrals , more rationally be confuted . Firm. I much approve of what you say , for the Non-residency of Bishops , Deans , and Canons , and the remote Vicaridges of Vicars Choral from their respective Cathedrals , is the just occasion that the service of God is very perfunctorily performed , to the great scandal of the Goverment of the Church , which we can look upon as a grieveance , but 't is only in the power of King and Parliament to redress , Dub. The Lord put it into their hearts , to undertake so good and pious a work . ●et me now hear what you can answer to what is objected against the Lives a●e Conversations of Vicars Choral , Petty Canons , Singing-men , as they are setled in some Cathedrals . Eiru● . My answer is , That the charge is too general , and favours of want of Charity . That some of them may be such , whose conversation is not so commendable as it should be , or that they have not that sense and relish of ●eligion , which ought to be in men of that Place and Calling , I fear may too justly be charged upon them ; but much of this dirt might be wiped off by the constant Residence , grave Example , and strict Discipline of those to whom the goverment of the Church belongs . 'T is confessed , that through the corruption of our natures , the best duties , frequently perform'd , are apt to degenerate into cold and airy formalities . 'T is the great happiness of those Christians which dwel near Cathedrals , that they may meet Three t●mes a day , Evening , Morning , and Noon , to offer up prayer and praises to the High and Holy God ; but 't is very much to be lamented , that Cittizens , and others , not hindred by necessarie occasions , should be so frequently absent from these solemn Assemblies , as usually they are . It is yet more to be lamented , that those whose duty it is to officiate at those solemn services should look upon them as a ( p●nsum , ) a task , a burden ; as naughty boyes at school do their lessons ; how far are such stupid souls from holy David's zeal and piety . One thing ( saith that good King ▪ Psal. 22.4 . ) have I desired of the Lord , which I shall seek after , that I may dwel in the house of the Lord all the daies of my life , to behold the beauty of the Lord , and to enquire in his Temple . Want of sense & zeal at holy Offices , is not the fault of Chore , or Quire service , but of those that Officiate ; who if they will seriously fix their hearts upon those holy duties , when they sing and give praise , as David did , attending to the matter of their heavenly and ravishing Anthems , as well as to the Musick , they would not look ●pon the service as a burden , but as a blessed opportunity thus to praise Almighty God in the beauty of Holyness . Dub. Happily it might be so to those who understood those Anthems , but I have heard some say , that the singing in Chores is to them much like a Latine service , they knowing not what is sung . Firm. This is your Fift Exception , and 't is indeed a very weak one ; there being none who frequent this service , but know very well what is sung , ( unless it be the full Anthem : ) let those that make this objection , frequent this service , and then they will be ashamed of so frivelous a Cavile , and easily perceive the fault to have been in themselves , and not in the service . Dub. There is one exception yet behind against your Chore service ; as the use of Musicall Instruments , in the performance of a great part of it , which are said to be Levitical , and therefore unlawful under the Gospel , as we have seen in the Geneva Notes upon the last Psalm , as also in Aquinas , Quest. 22.9 , 19. and divers other Learned Men. Firm. This is a very gross mistake ; for Musical Instruments are not part of the Levitical law , never instituted by Moses , who was so faithful a servant in his trust that he would not have omitted to enjoyn them , had they been given him in Charge by Allmighty God. They were in use long before Moses , presently after the Creation of the world , for Gen. 4. we read that the rare gift of playing on Musical Instruments was given to Iubal . Can we imagine that such a gift was bestowed on him to Stir up wantonness and lust , by the more artificial singing , of unsavory Sonnets ? Or is it not more rational to conceive that this skil in Musick was given to men to Sing forth the Praises of our great Creator in a more excellent manner ? When we Glorify the Lord we ought to exalt him as much as we can : Ecclesiasticus . 43.30 . And surely if Musick has a natural influence upon our affections to Stir up and quicken them in wantoness and daliance , certainly it may work the same effect , upon them to quicken and enliven them in a more devout and intensive Praising of Almighty God in all those that have a Religious tendency , and a serious disposition to his worship and service ; besides seing 't is a moral and perpetual duty , to shew forth the Praises of God , all rational men will consent that this ought to be performed after the best manner , and consequently with such skil and are that has the greatest influence upon our affections , rather then after such a manner which renders the service of God mean and contemptible as 't is rendred in many of our Parochial Churches . Dub. You have fully satisfied me that Musical Instruments in the service of God are not Levitical , but are natural means to Stir up the affections in these sacred Hyms and Anthems . Nevertheless I have heard that many who are much taken with Chore Anthems , are much offended at the manner of reading of Prayers in Cathedrals ; when they pray for the Sick , they use the ordinary tone which is used in Parish Churches , at other times they pronounce their Prayers in a middle way between Reading and Singing . Which seems to be not so grave and sutable to the Solemnity of Prayer . Firm. I confess this is a common objection , and some that are no enimies to Cathedral service have in this much desired a reformation , but this must be left to the prudence of those that set at the Serne ; mean while we ought not to condemn the Quireservice for this seeming indecency , well knowing that the stress of Religious duties does not consist in the toning and modulation of the voice but in the Musick of the heart and affections , in a serious and devout fixing of the mind upon the things that are Read or Sung , the want of which , in those who Read Prayers or Sing Anthems , is no little sin , and one main reason why some of our Singing-men are not so seriously devout as they ought to be , & really those that are frequently present , officiating in holy duties unpreparedly , carelessly , formally , and irreverently , by Gods just judgment may be given up to a senceless stupidity , for their prophanation of the holy ordinances of God. Dub. 'T is certain , that a●prophane carless performing of Divine service is a very great sin , and a necessary cause of irreligion and practical Atheism , one exception I had allmost forgott which concerns Choristers , who are said to be , for the most part , very untoward Children . Firm. First , This cannot be denyed , but the reasons are first , negligence in the Musick Masters , whose chiefest care it is to teach them to Sing , and the end why they Sing : namely to set forth the Praises of their Creator ▪ neither are they so careful to instruct them how to behave themselves reverently and devoutly at the worship and service of God. Secondly , Some of them are not set to the Grammer School , where upon they squander away a great part of their time in vain sports , and idleness which is the Mother of all villany and wickednss . Thirdly . But the chiefest reason of all is that our Choristers are commonly the Children o● mean Parents , who for the most part are very ignorant in the great matters of Religion , and extreamly negligent in the concerns of their own and their Childrens Souls ; Now Deans and Chapters are necessitated to make choise of such poor Children , because the better sort of people , disdain to have their Children brought up in that noble Science of Musick , which is their gross ignorance ; besides their scorn and contempt of this Science , they misconceive that if they should send them to the Musick School it would hinder them in their Grammer learning , which might easily be prevented by imploying those hours only at Musick which are spent in foolish , insignificant sports and pastimes , which as I am inform'd , is the practise in some places beyond Sea ; where their youths spend much of the afternoons in Musick and Dancing , Training , Mathematicks , and such like manly and profitable exercises , which conduce both to the health of the body , and benefit of the understanding . Dub. I perceive that those exceptions against Deans and Chapters and Cathedral service are not so substantial , as once I conceived them to be . If you please , we will now proceed to those which I have heard urged with much earnestness against ●et forms of Prayer , and in particular against the Liturgie of the Church of England . Firm. Most willingly , I pray you favour me with the recital of them . Dub. 'T would be to much trouble and to little purpose to mention all that I have heard , seing many of them are very frivolous and not worthy of a serious answer , those that seem to be the most material , are , First that they are imposed by mans Authority . Secondly , they stint the Spirit . Thirdly they are cold and dead forms , our Spirits are not affected , and quickned by them , as by conceived and extemporary Prayers ▪ Firm. First , whatsoever is imposed upon us by mans Authority contrary to the word of God is utterly unlawfull , but set Forms taken out of ●ods word , are not contrary to that word , especially when not only the very matter of them is contained in Holy Scripture , but the very words and phrase . 'T is a strange peice of nonsence that what is in it self lawfull and laudable should cease to be so , because 't is commanded by our Superiors . True indeed , that things in themselves lawfull ( being in their own nature but indifferent ) if commanded as necessary and intrinsically holy , are upon that account unlawfull and repugnant to Christian liberty ; but more of this when we shall di●course about ▪ Ceremonies . Secondly , That the Spirit is stinted by a set Form ; and that Reading of Prayers out of a Book , cannot be praying by the Spirit . To this I reply , That if their were any truth in these exceptions , how comes it to pass that ●e have so many set Forms of Prayer , and thanksgiving in Holy Scripture ? How do set form● of Prayer more stint the Spirit , then set Forms of Psalms for Singing ? Yea ; does a set Form of Prayer more stint the Spirit then the extemporary conceptions of the Minister limit and stint the Spirit of the Congregation , to whom they are upon this account in the nature of set Forms ? When these queries shall be rationally answered , I shall through away all set Forms which have been used by the ●hristian Churches for above 1400 years . Besides those of the Presbyterian perswasion allow'd them as lawfull in their conferences with the Bishops anon after his Majesties restauration . As to the other part of the other exception that reading of Prayers out of a Book cannot be praying by the Spirit ; this to those who understand the true meaning of that Phrase is a most frivilous cavill ; for setting aside the extraordnary gift of prayer , to pray in , or by , the Spirit denotes first the making of our prayers according to the mind of the Spirit exprest in the Scripture , as may appear Col. 3.16 . Secondly , to pray by the Spirit , is to pray by that principle of grace wrought in our hearts by the Holy Spirit , and enabling us to every good duty , as well as to prayer . Thirdly to pray by the Spirit is when the Spirit do's stir up our hearts to this Holy duty , working in us good desires , and motions , quickning our faith and fervency , whereby our hearts minds & spirits go along with out Tongues and Words , utterd either in a set Form or by our extemporary expressions , which is usually practized by knowing Christians in their Closset devotions . Dub. I confess I am not able to shew why set Forms of Prayer should stint the Spirit , more then set forms of Singing , and I am perswaded that praying by the Spirit , signifies no more then the assistance of the holy Spirit quickning and stirring us up to , and in , Prayer ; whereby our hearts and spirits are fixed in that holy duty joyning and going along with the Tongue and Voice , but truly I find by experience that my Spirit is more stirred up by a Prayer that is new , which I never heard before , being lively deliver'd , then by a common Form read out of a Book . Firm. This is the chiefest reason ●hich renders men such admirers of extemporary Prayers , and so opposite to set forms ; their own experience tels them that they are more taken with such Prayers then with common Forms read out of a Book ; whi●h phanciful experience no wise man will plead against reason and judgment , it being very deceitful and the issue of a very common corruption , and humane infirmity , which inclines us to be more taken with what is new , then with what we have often heard , especially when 't is deliver'd in a lively tone , with pleasing actions and gesticulations of the Body , and without Book , though for substance , and soundness , what is read be infinitely before it . Pray Sir , answer me but this one question ; whether are your affections more stir'd up at the reading of some portion of Scripture by the Minister , or at a good Sermon , delivered from the Pulpit ? Dub. I confess I am much more affected , my affections are more wrought upon by a good Sermon deliver'd with life and action then at the reading of the best Chapter in the Bible . Firm. I believe you , yet you will not say that the best Sermon that ever was made by man , is to be prefer● before a portion of sacred Scripture . The explication , or application of the word , mixt with much of mans conceptions , before the pure word it self , and esteem the hearing of it read useless and unlawful . Dub. God forbid I should : Firm. You see by this one instance , how fallible your own phantiful experience has been , and how it has lead you against Scripture , against the general practise of the Church , against all sober reason , so dangerous a thing it is for men of short discourse , that are not masters of reason , but are guided to phansies , over powred by passions , engaged in parties to meddle with controversies , which are too high and hard for them . Dub. I confesse that 't was no great wonder , that so mean a man as I should be mistaken , but 't is very strange , that so many grave and learned men as were in the late Assembly , should be so much against the Common Prayer Book of the Church of England , which I have heard learned men affirme to be the best Liturgie in the world . Firm. 'T was very strange that so many learned men , should be overborn by some leading men , that had more zeal than judgm●nt , and happily more of interest and designe then of learning and piety ▪ but as there have been Parliament-drivers , so there have been Assembly-drivers , and Convocation-drivers , before you or I were born , and will be after we are in our graves . And I am confident , tha● disg●ised Priests and Jesuits have had more then one finger , in animating the Presbiterians , against the Church of England , as well as ( to my knowledge ) they have had in somenting Anabaptisme ▪ and Quaquerisme , so● 't is their Maxime , divide & impera , divide the Hereticks , and w●e shall Reign . I have more charity then to believe that the Assembly ( the greatest part of them ) were of opinion that set Forms of Prayer were either useless , or unlawful , though they cannot be excused from too much compliance ( I fear ) against their own judgments . They could not be ignorant that the vote against the Book of Common-Prayer was contrary to the sentiments of the most learned men in all the Reformed Churches beyond Sea , of very sober men in this Nation , ( known heretofore by the name of Puritans ) the most discreet and moderate of that Party were never against set forms ; of the Reverend Bishops of the Church of England ; many of which sacred order have bee● as famous in their generation , both for learning and piety as former ages ever knew ; yea since His Majesties happy Restauration , the chiefest of the Presbiterian perswasion , have acknowledged set forms of Prayer in publick to be lawful , they plainly confess in their Conference with the Bishops they are not against them ; but every daies experience will make it evident , they must be for them , as well as not against them , unles● the late Assembly , could have as easily voted , and made all Ministers of the Church of England , Discreet , Judicious , Orthodox , and of a ready Elocution , as they did rashly and inconsiderately , vote down the Liturgie . Besides the Congregation , especially the weaker sort , those t●at are ignorant , and cannot read , may better joyn in prayer , when the Forms of i● are known and common , then they can in strange ●nd extemporary expressions , with which they are ●ltogether unacqainted ; which being the practise in the late ti●es of confusion , has taught the people only to hear prayers , as if they were so many Sermons , wherein they were not at all concerned to joyn with their hearts and tongues , and to say Amen ; or as if the ear were the only member to be imployed in that holy duty . Again , Set and prescribed Forms , consisting of Scriptural phrases and expressions , unaffected and ●●tted to the understanding of the meanest c●pacitie , are soonest received into the heart , and aptest to excite and carry along with them judicious and steady ●ffections , as King Charles the Fir●● ha● observed in his most excellent Book . Hereunto may be added , That out of well composed Forms , the weaker Christians may be furnished with a stock of wholesome expressions , composed by the advice , & joynt sistance of the cheif Pastors and Ministers of th● Church , for their help and direction in their private Devotions , which i● imposible to b● done by the suddain , various , uncertain expressions of divers particular Ministers . Besides , Set Forms are necessary for uniformity in the publick worship ; and upon this account learned and sober men have wished there were but one publick Liturgie in all Christian Churches in the world ; which ( if it were possible ) would be a great means of peace and unity amongst Christians , by preventing the spreading of Schisms and Heresies , that may be as well prayed up as preached up ; as also undecent , unscriptural expressions , tautologies , vain-repetitions , phantastical affected words and phrases , utterly abhorrent from the sobriety and gravity of Divine Oratory , which is quite another thing from that of the Stage or Desk . Lastly , Should we deal with an understanding Recusant , endeavouring to perswade him to forsake his superstitious worship , and to joyn himself to our Assemblies ; how could we assure him ( if we have no publick established Liturgie ) that our way and manner of worship is , and shall continue Scripture-proof , sound and innocent , without errours and indecencies ? Do we think that any wise man , would leave his Popish blind way of worship , to be guided by our dark Lanthorn ; not being rationaly assured , after what way we do worship the God of our Fathers ? which we cannot satisfie him in , if we have no set Liturgie . Dub. I very much approve of your reasons for Publick Set Forms of Prayer ; as also of your ●nswer to that argument drawn from Experience , which appears so great and mighty to some mens vain imaginations , but is indeed very weak and fallacious . Firm. You must give me leave to adde Two things more in answer to that argument drawn from Experience , and then we will discourse of those exceptions against our Common-Player in particular . 1. I will oppose experience to experience , those that repro●ch our Common-prayer , for a cold and dry Service , extolling extemporary conceptions so much beyond it ; let these men make this easie experiment to themselves . Let them take some of th● best of extemporary prayers verbatim , which your Short-hand-writers can exactly do , let these prayers be read or repeated memoriter , with all the advantages of pleasing tones , bodily gesticulations , lively pronunciations , and assure your self they will at length appear to be as dull , dry and cold as any part of our Liturgie . 2. I would have you seriously consider what the most judiceous Hooker sayes concerning Sermons , and Reading of Scripture ; why the former are so highly esteem'd and the other so much slighted ; the truth is , they please more then Lessons and Chapters by reason of those outward advantages which a Sermon well delivered has above th● Scripture barely read ; besides the singular attention and affection which men are apt to express toward the one , and their cold disposition toward the other ; partly because 't is usual to let those things pass carelesly by our ears which we have often heard before or , know we may haer again when ever we please ; and partly for that Sermons are new and fresh , and if they slip by us for the present , what excellencies soever they contain is lost , which creats the grater atte●●ion , which causes the greater affections : so far that worthy man. This certainly is one great reason why set Forms of Prayer are so much undervalued in respect of extemporary and conceiv'd effusions . Dub. I am abundantly satisfied , that set Forms of Prayer are not only lawfull , but very usefull in the Publike Service of the Church . I shall now by your good leave descend to those exceptions which are made more particularly against the Liturgie of the Church of England . First , that 't is taken out of the Masse Book . Secondly that it contains many shreds of Prayer , which are short and customary wishes , rather then serious and devout Prayers . Thirdly , that it appoints divers Apocryphal Chapters to be publikly read , which contain things incredible and ridiculous . As for those exceptions which are made against some particular passages in the body of the Liturgy , they are so frivolous that they are not worth the trouble of a serious confutation ; he that pleases may see them sufficiently baffled by Mr Hooker , Mr Ball himself ( a Nonconformist ) in his tryal of the grounds of Seperation , with many others . Firm. Your First excep●ion is the issue of Spite and Ignorance ; what though it contains many things that are in the Masse Book , as the Creeds , the Te● Commandments , the Lords-Prayer , and divers Collects ? Shall a true man refuse to take his goods , and make the best he can of them because he finds them in a Theifs house ? Or shall the husbandman refuse pure wheat because 't was once mingl'd with chaff , and tares , albeit 't is now winno●ed and s●fted ? Or shall we refuse Pauls Epistles , because there are in them certain savory passages taken out of the writings of Idolatrous Heathens ? The Church of Rome was once a glorious Church , true 't is ; it s now sadly corrupted , yet as corrupt as 't is , all is not chaff which that Church retains , there remain● in her some good wheat which was in her before her novel superstitions were in their Swadling cloaths , this wheat wee retain , the ch●ff we h●ve blown away with a Fan of an orderly Reformation , you see what a malicious cavil this is , that our Common-Prayer is taken out of the M●ss ; malice in some , and ignorance , in others have been the true parents of this groundless calumny . 2. As to your Second exception ; that our Liturgie contains many short cuts and shreads of prayer : pray you what do you think of the Publicans Prayer , ( God be mercifull to me a sinner ) is any prayer in our Liturgie more short then that which our Saviour so well aproved ? Short ejacuculations , concise forms , Holy breathings of the Spirit are very frequent in the Scripture , and past all peradventure very acceptable to Almighty God ; those that cavil at the shortness of our prayers and collects , let them justify the length of theirs if they can , from any one prayer in Scripture , or Fathers that is a quater of an hower long . Let any rational man who is acquainted with the nature of Prayer , and humane infirmities , seriously consider , ●hether or no , our Church has not carried her self very prudently both in the Method , Phrase , Form and ordering of her Service . Are not all her holy Offices the matter , and mostly the very words and choi●e●t portions of holy Scriptures , what an unworthy calumny is it , to tell the world our Common-Prayer is taken out of the Masse ? Could any thing be utter'd more fals and invidious ? those excellent Prayers She uses , how are they ●itted to our infirmities , mixed with Psalms , Hymns , and choise portions of Scripture ? is not this order and method more sutable to the weak capacities , and unsteady attentions of the greatest part of the Congregation , then a long extemporary Prayer , for matter many times Heretical , Schismatical , Irreverent , strangly bold , unbeseeming a poor sinful Worme , to offer up to the High and Dreadful Majesty , of our Great and Good God ? Dub. I know by my own experience th●t long extemporary Prayers are very apt to dull ●nd de●den our attentions , and I cannot deny but that sometimes I have been very much scandalized both at the matter , as also at the un-Scriptural , ●hantastical , Affected expressions used in such Prayers , which is not to be seen in the Common-Prayer Book , whose phrase and words are very grav● , and decent , and being taken out of the word of ●od are most fit to be offer'd up to the Almighty God , when we speak unto him in Prayer . I am fully satisfied with the excellent Method , Matter , grave Oratory of the English Liturgie , being 't is so consonant to , and coresponding with , the Holy Scripture . So that I stand amaz'd at the impudence of those that first gave out , that 't was borrowed from the Mass Book , and at the dull ignorance of those , that will believe so noto●ious a Lye. The Book I acknowledge to be rarely compos'd , and not onely useful in our publick Worship , but also a very profitable directory for our Family , & private devotions . Now to the last objection : Were it not better that some Apochryphal Chapters were left out of the calender , and Canonical Lessons set in their place ? Firm. Many learned men have indeed thought so , and have wished for a change in this particular , Mr Hooker has these words , Those Ecclesiastical Books ( for so they were cald in auntient times , not Apocryphal under which title were contain'd such Books which the Church allowed not at all to be read in publick ) I say those Ecclesiastical Books which in case my self did think ( as some do ) that 't were more safe and better that they were not to be read at all publikly : nevertheless as in other things of like nature , so in this I should be loath to oppose my private judgment against the force of their Reverend Authority , considering the excellency of some things in all , and of all things in certain of those Ecclesiastical Books which we publikly read , and therefore I have thought it better to let them stand as a list or a marginal border unto the Old Testament , and to grant at the least unto some of them publike audience in the house of God. Dub. I do fully acquiess in the pious , prudent , and peaceable determination of this worthy man : and so from the exceptions that are made against the liturgy I desire your discourse may proceed to those which are made against the Ceremonies of the Church ; 't is superfluous to name them all . But only those which are most spoken against , the Surplice , the Ring in Marriage , Bowing at the name of Jesus , Kneeling at the Sacrament , and especially the Cross in Baptisme , which are said to be Popish and superstitions . Firm. As the Kingdom of Heaven does not consist in Meats , and Drinks , but in Righteousness and peace , Rom. 14. so neither does it consist in gestures , vestures , or any thing that is in it self indifferent ; when the Church commands us to wear such a vestment , or to use such a gesture for Uniformity sake , and outward decency , not placing any intrinsecal Holiness , or absolute necessity in any of those Ceremonies : 't is our duty and not any superstition at all to be obedient ; yea we are guilty of the sin of disobedience , and superstition also if we stand out against lawfull Authority . For there is a two fold Superstition , one Positive , as when we ascribe Holiness to any thing that is in its own nature indifferent , morrally neither good nor evil ; another Negative , as when we Dogmatize , and call that evil which Morally is not so , and in such things , Weare not , Kneel not , is as much Superstition as Weare or Kneel possibly can be . What is it to any understanding man , whether he Prayes or Preaches in Black or White or any other Colour , unless it be for decency and uniformity ? the power of the Church limits us to a White Surplice , rather then to a Black Iump , or short Cloak . Dub. But is not this an intrenchment upon our Christian liberty , to be confind to particular Modes and Forms ? Firm. Not at all . So long as our practice only is limited , and our judgment left free as before any such Canon was made ; 't is strang that the same men who enjoyned three Ceremonies at the taking of the Covenant as to be bare Headed , bare Handed , the right Hand lifted up , should so much scruple them in our Publick Service . But in a word , 't is plain Scripture , that every Soul should be subject to the Higher Powers , not onely for wrath but also for Conscience sake . Now unless the Non-Conformists can bring as plain Scripture against our Ceremonies , to prove them morally evil , they must incurr the sin of Schisme , and disobedience to those powers which God has ordained ; and these are far greater sins then the wearing of a Surplice , though we had borrow'd it from the Pope himself . Dub. You mind me now of one of the greatest exceptions against the Surplice , &c. because the Papists use it in their superstitious Worship , therefore 't is unlawful for us to wear it in ours . Firm. If this were a good reason , 't would follow ; whatsoever the Papists do use or have abused in their Superstition , 't is unlawful for us , ( who have abandoned such trash and I rumpery to ) use , but Papists have abused our Churches , ( halices , and other Ornaments in their fals Worship and Services , therefore we may not use them ; but down with them , down with them even to the Ground . Dub. This indeed will be a very necessary consequent , but a very costly one , I fear the men that make this exception , would not be very forward to Build them up again : if Idolatry and Superstition , were a just cause to make us lay aside our Surplices ; by the same reason we must pull down our Churches , and upon the same accompt the Primitive Christians ought not to have eaten meat offered to Idols , neither to have made use of the Heathens Tempels , to celebrate the Worship and Service of the true God. Firm. You see then how frivilous the exception against the Surplice is , and so are all those that are offer'd against the Ring in Marriage , bowing at the name of Jesus . Kneeling at the Sacrament , the Crosse after Baptisme , and therefore I shall very briefly pass them over . 1. For the Ring 't is as Antient , at least , as Turtullian who lived about two hundred Years after Christ , he makes mention of it more then once , and our Church do's use it as an ancient Ceremony , no ways essential to Matrimony . 2. Bowing at the name of Jesus is likewise very Antient : The reason of it was , 1. To shew our readiness to yield obedience and subjection to him as our Lord and King ; to whom all power both in Heaven and Earth is given , and to whom every Knee must bow . Phil. 2.10 . The Antient Christians rather bowed at the naming of Jesus , then at the name of Christ , in opposition to the unbelieving Jews , who most of all Blasphemed that sweet and saving name of Jesus : which therefore they did indeavour the more highly to exalt . 3. To declare their certain belief of what the Apostle forete●● , that at the name of Iesus every Knee should bow , of things in Heaven , things in Earth , and things under the Earth , that all things should be subject unto him . Phil. 2. 3. Kneeling at the Sacrament , our Church conceives to be the most humble and reverend posture , and therefore most suitable to so high and Heavenly a Mistery , especially it being Administred with a Prayer ; yet we do not condemn the practise of other Churches , where this holy Sacrament is received sitting or standing ; neither should they condemn us for Kneeling because Christ's Disciples receiv'd it in a Table gesture , to which we are no more bound then to the place , or time , in which they reciv'd it . An upper Room and after Supper as the learned Dr. Sanderson has evidently demonstrated . 4. The Cross after Baptisme is also a very Antient Ceremony , which the Christians of the first ages , used in a couragious and undaunted opposition against the Heathens , and Jews , who scoffed and derided them for beleiving in , and Worshiping a Crucified God for their Saviour , who could not save himself . True 't is in process of time , the Cross was abused , to grose Superstition , and therefore say some , it ought to be laid aside , as Ezekias abollished the Brasen Serpent when the people made it an Idol . Dub. Much more ought the Cross to be taken away being abused to superstition , because 't was but an humane invention , where as the Brasen Serpent , was set up by Gods own direction and command . Firm. Very true , but then let Ezekias do it , not the people on their own heads , without the Authority of the King. However the use of an innocent Ceremony ought not to be taken away because of ' its abuse ; and here it ought to be consider'd , whether it be better to use the Cross to put us in mind of our duty , not to be ashamed of Christ Crusifi'd , as also of the courage and boldness of the Primitive Christians , who not withstanding the Scoffs and Reproches of Infidels , would make such open profession of their Faith in Christ Crucified , as to use the sign of the Cross , not only in Baptism , but also upon sundry other occasions ; or else , whether 't were better to forbear the use of it , because it has been so much abused to Superstition : let the Suprem power judge which of these is fittest to be done , and determine accordingly either for the Negative or the Affirmative ; and I believe every sober and peacable Christian will esteem it his duty to submit unto such a determination . Dub. But seing these and other ceremonies have been and are a great scandal to tender consciences , and the occasions of many sh●rp contentions amongst Christians , agreeing in the substantials of Religion , and seing that Conformists themselves confess them not to be in their own nature necessary , but only expedient for order and decency , were it not better they were laid aside , then continued is they are , the perpetual causes of discord and dissention amongst us ? Firm. And are order , decency , and uniformity ( without which there wi●l be neither ●ove , Peace , or Unity , ) su●h inconsiderable nothings , that a few innocent Ce●emonies must be utterly abollished to gratifie the dogmatizing humors of those men , who esteem things in themselves indifferent , to be sinful and unlawful , which is s●●t Superstition ? 'T is indeed much to be lamented , that we should quarrel about Mint and Cummin , to the prejudice of more weighty and material duties , and the scandal of our Religion . But by reason of our inn●te and acquited corruptions 't is necessary that offences should come yet wo : be unto that man by whom they come ; I know weakness and renderness of conscience is much pretended , and we ought to take heed how we offend any of Christs little ones ; but how can these men be reckon'd in the number of weak or little ones , who seem to themselves so great , so strong and able , in the things of Religion ? and for their tendernesse of conscien●e , we appeal to their bloody civil Warrs , 't is well known by whom and how they were began , and carry●d on , till at length they came up to the death of the King , tho ( I believe ) very much against the intentions , and designs , of the most grave , and sober men , of that Party . Dub. But really Sir , were it not more beseeming Christian prudence so far to condescend to our dissenting Brethren ( who agree with us in the Doctrine of our Church ) in taking away , at least some , of those Ceremonies which are more liable to exception , then to comply with the Superstitious Papists in the use of them ? Firm. I confess , some moderate men have thought so , especially since we are frustrated of of one main end , for which our first reformers retained them , which was to draw over the Papists into the Communion of our Church , which they did adhere unto , for the Ten first years of Queen Elizabeth , until they were interdicted by the Popes bull , But seeing we are deprived of all hopes of that much desired issue and that by the cunning of Priests and Jesuits , stirring up and animating the Conformists and Non-conformists against each other , about these Ceremonies . Our differences amongst our selves do daily increase and multiply ; some wise and peaceable men have desired that the use of certain of those Ceremonies might be forborn at least for a time , which not withstanding , they are still continued . These peaceable men abhor the great sin of Separation & do continue their conformity to the rites of our Church ; daily begging at the throne of Grace that the God of truth and peace would for his mercy ●ake so assist those powers which he has ordained that they may be instrumental for the establishing of truth and peace amongst us . Dub. I like well of the temper of these men , and wish that their moderation were not only known unto , but practised by , all men ; for certainly if the Spirit of love , peace , and meekness , did rule more in our peevish and froward hearts , we should enjoy a greater measure of Peace , Love , and Christian Charity , then these angry times have hither to been happy with . I return you my hearty thanks for that satis●action which you have given me in those scruples which have much troubled me about the Goverment , Liturgie and Ceremonies of the Church of England , there is yet one thing behind , at which I have somwhat been scandalliz'd , 't is this : Your Church does receive persons who are notoriously pro●h●ne in their lives , and grossly ignorant in the principls of Religion , to the Holy Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ : besides she tollerates at least Ministers , that are scandalous in their conve●s●tion , frequenters of Al●-houses , not at all serious in Religion , shew little sence of it in their discourses , Preaching or practises : men of little conscience , and of as little learning . Firm. This accusation is most fals ; whether it springs from spite or malice , or extream ignorance , I know not : sure I am our Church orders that no su●h persons be admitted to the Holy Sacrament , th●t no such Ministers be permitted to officiate , that they are to be suspended once , and again , and if they do no not reform they are to be deprived ; for the first you may see the Rubrick before the Communion , and the 26. Canon . For the Second see Artic , 26. and Canon the 74. and 75. and Canon . 10. made 1640. which are so clear against the admitting of profane persons to to the Communion , or tollerating of scandalous Ministers without due Punishment , that whosoever chargeth these abuses upon our Church must be grosly ignorant or very malitious . Dub. Yet we see that such prophane persons are admitted to the Sacrament , as members of your Church , and such unworthy Minsters are allowed to officiate . Firm. Such persons are no members of out Church , but rather the Synagoge of Satan , and that Minister who does admit , such persons natoriously prophane , to the Holy Sacrament is a greater Non-con●ormist to the orders of the Church , then he that scruples at a Surplice , and those Church-wardens who neglect to present them , are guilty of Perjury , and ought to be debar'd themselves from the Communion Can. 26. Dub. 'T is evident that such Ministers are not Punished either by Admonition , Suspensition , or Deprivation . Firm. This is not true in all places to my knowledge , where such Ministers or people escape unpunished , 't is mostly by the fault of the Church-wardens and Sides-men , in not presenting them ; for what Judge either Ecclesiastical or Civil , can punish offences that are not brought before him ? Dub. But many times offences and scandal● have been presented , and the offender not punis●●d ; yea your Ecclesiastical Judges are more severe against those who are Non-conformists to the laws o● the Church , ●hen ag●inst those that are Non-conformists to the laws of God as profane irreligeous wretches . Firm. No m●n c●n excuse the personal abuses that are committed in any Court , Civil , or Ecclesiastical ; all Court Officers never yet were , nor ever will be men of integrity , ●nd of unbias'd judgments , no question that many abuses which are committed by the Officers of Ecclesiastical Courts might be prevented if the Bishops would be somtimes personally present in their respective consisto●ies as was intimated , they ought to be Canon . 11. made . 1640. If we must seperate from a Church , that enjoyns no Intollerable conditions for Communion with her because of some personal ●aul●s of those who are entrusted with her Goverment , we must turn Seekers , for where shall we find a Church , whose Officers are alwaies all of them impartially just and upright ? Dub. I confess there is no good reason , we should seperate from a Church , because of personal abuses in the Governors , or under Officers , where the Goverment in ' its constitution is not Faulty , neither the terms of Communion intollerable ; but is there any reason that Nonconformists should be more sh●rply dealt with , then Deb●ucht Profane Persons ? Firm. If we should compare Schisme , Seperation , Non-conformity , with Profaness , it would not be easy to say , which is the greatest , or which is the least Sin , the first may be , Majoris culpae , the other Majoris infamiae , as Aquinas rightly judgeth , 1.2 . q. 73. A. 5. of Carnal , and Spiritual Sins : those ( as Pride , and Malice , ) are greater Sins , but these ( as Drunkenness , Fornication , ) are more Scandalous . But to wave the comparison , and to give you freely my own sentiments in this particular . I do conceive that Debauchery , and Profaness , ought to be more severely punished , then Negative Seperation , and simple Non-conformity . My reasons are these 1. Every prudent Parent will be mo●e severe against a wicked Child , that continues under his Roof , professing obedience a●d s●bjection , then against that Child which has utterly forsaken his Father , and utterly abandon'd his House , and Family . 2. The sins of Pro●●ness and Deb●uchery being willful , ( for Drunkards , and profane persons , do not ple●d ignor●nce and weakness , ) are o●● more M●lign●nt nature then sins of Ignoranc● ▪ though it be such an ignorance which was not all together Invincible , but contracted by Pride , Pevishness , Interest , or Prejudice under which many Seperatists , and Non-Conformists , are in Bondag● and ●aptivity . 3. The Lives and Conversations o● Debauched , and Profane Persons , who go under the name of Protestants , and Members of our Church , ( though intruth they are not , but rather Limbs of Satan ) are the greatest Reproach and Scandal to it . These are the men that furnish Shismaticks , and Non-Conformists with their best Arguments , which they urge against us . For what they object against our Church Goverment , Liturgie , or Ceremonies , is ●or the most part very frivilous , and there is no Quaker , Anabaptist , Independents , but m●kes the proph●ness of the Episcopa● party , the chief reason and ground of his separation . Dub. This I confess to be true , from my own experience . Nothing wrought so much upon me to fo●sake the Church of England , as the wicked and ungodly lives of those which she receives into her Communion . Firm. That was your error ; for you cannot say th●t she receives any into her Communion , whom by her Rubrick , and Canons she ●xcludes ; and although through the laziness and connivence of Church Officers , or Governors , or both , many an ungodly person receives the Sacament , yet there is no just ground for a seperation from the Church , which teaches nothing but what is Catholick and Apostolical : Only I confess , tha● in the exercise of Discipline , she comes short of the Primitive severity against obstinate sinners ; yet the present Canons are so strict , that if they were duly observed , no openly wicked , or ungodly person , should be admitted to the Communion ; which would be a great satisfaction ( I am perswaded ) to those that now seperate from us . Dub. But seing the Primitive Discipline has been so long time wished for , above an Hundred years since , as appears by the Rubrick before the Commination ; how comes it to pass , that 't is not restored ? Shall we be still wishing and never acting or doing ▪ Firm. Why it has not been restored , I know no other reason that is given , but this ; The times will not bear it ; why the ●●mes will not bear it , I know not , unless it be in respect of Se●taries , who cry down many antient us●ges of the Church ( which they do not understand ) for Popery ; an● , these men must not be offended , least they be driven to an utter hatred , o● opposition to our Church ; or else , which is more probable , such is the wickedness and profaness of the times , that they will not endure the Primitive severity . When will that time come , that such strict discipline will be endured ? The Church has been in expectation of it above this Hundred years , but still Schisms , and Sects , profaness and wickedness , encrease every day more and more . No question the times , as to Sects and P●ofaness , ( if that were a sufficient reason ) are much more unfit to bear the antient discipline , then they were when that wish was first made , and the longer it is disused , the more unfit they will be , which I wish our prudent ●overnors would take into their serious considerations . Dub. Certainly a Strict Discipline , impartially executed , upon all transgressors of Gods Holy Laws , by sharp rep●oofs , severe admonitions , due Suspensations from the Sacrament , Excommunications , Penances according to the quality of the offence , would give a great check , to that impiety and wickedness which reigns so much in our Land ; and take away much of the scandal , which is given by our mixt Communions , at which block of offence many have stumbled , and fell out of our Church into Conventicles , and Seperate Congregations . Firm. No question , a strict discipline would do much towards an h●ppy Reformation of manners in the Episcopal party , but as you have observed , the great scandal that is taken by the Non-conformists , at the profaness and wickedness of that party , so I must tell you , that as great a scandal is given by them , to those who conform to the Church of England : though their lives and conversations being contrary to her Laws & Canons , they are no more members of our Church , then a glass eye , or wooden leg , are live parts of a mans body . Dub. I do not see wherein the Non-conformists , whether Presbyterians or Independents , have given any just occasion of scandal to any , they being men that are very sober in their lives , and great professors of Religion , given much to Family-duties , to Prayer , to hearing of Sermons . Firm. Hinc illae Lachrymae , Here lies the scandal which m●kes Religion stink in the nostrils of profane and wicked men , when they shall see that men professing holiness , should make no conscience of Disobedience , of Perjury , of Rebellion against , and at last of Murdering , their Leige Sovereigne ; a man upon whom his most mallicious and cr●tical enemies , could never charge any scanlous sin . Dub. These indeed are very grievious sins , and much to be lamented , but surely you cannot charge them upon the generality of thesemen , but only upon some ambitious Hypocrites , that made Religion a stalking-horse , to bring about their devilish designs . Firm. 'T is true that all the Non-conformi●●s in England , were not in actual armes against the King , neither did they sit in the High Court of Injustice upon him , neither did they all , as natural agents , cut of his Head ; but morally , that is , very sinfully and wickedly , they had their hands stain'd with that Royal blood : for whosoever did abet these sons of Belial in their Rebellions , Treasons , Murders , of their King and fellow Subjects , either by consenting to their Villanies , praying for their prosperity , praising God for their Victorious success , or by assisting them with their councels , advice , free and voluntary Contributions , by writing and preaching up the justice of their cause , are guilty before God , os Treason , Murder , and Rebellion . Dub. This censure is very severe , and yet I cannot tell what to reply against it . Many well meaning people observing certain abuses in Church and Common-wealth , much desired a reformation of them , and promised to themselves great things from the Long Parliament ; whereupon ( such is the brutish inclination of earnest desires , and great expectations in the minds of men , that are of short discourse ) that these poor inconsiderable persons , were engaged against King and Country , before they had well weighed , That good Intentions cannot justify unlawful Actions ; That God has no need of the sinner : That we must not do evil , that good may come thereon . But I am perswaded that these seduced men do see their former errors , and are ●ruly penitent , abominating from their hearts , all Treasons and Rebellions against their Dread Sovereign , and for the future will keep themselves from such unchristian practises . Firm. I much commend you for your Chari●y , and for those that had their hands in that grand Rebellion , acd are no● truly penitent , my hearty prayers are , that the Lord would be merciful unto them , and bless them , and shew them the light of his countenance . My severe censure ( as you were p●●ased ●o ●ail it ) was never intended against such ; but we see very few that have manifested any signal tokens of repentance , for their lifting up their hands against the Lord 's Anointed ; rather we may fear they will commit the same wickedness against his Majestie that now swayes the Royal Scepter , if they hid a fair opportunity . Disobedience , is a long step to Rebellion ; and is it not evident , that our present Non-conformists are more disobedient , more refractory against his Majesties Laws Ecclesiastical , then those that lived before the late warrs ; who though they were Non-conformists , yet were they not Separatists , Brownists ( as our present Non-conformists for the most part are : ) some of them ( Mr. as Ball in his Tryal of the grounds of Separation , and others ) smartly wri●ng against such Fanati●ks . And truly were there not a judicial blindness upon these men , they might see by a wonderful providence , the Lord did not own them in their Rebellious undertakings . How strangely did their numerous and potent Armies dwindle into no thing : ho● miraculously was our Gratious Soveraign preserved , against all their Treasonable attempts , and brought to the Throne of his Fathers , with the greatest honor , most general expressions of love and rejoycing , that ever any Prince received from ●oyal Subjects , and all this , without the spil●ing of one drop of blood . The Lord set it upon the heart of King and People , to keep this sign●l dispensation of His Providence in perpetual remembrance , & not to ruine thēselves by Atheism , Irreligion , Profaneness , or any enormous wickedness , for which the wrath of God has b●en pou●ed out in full Viols , upon wicked Kings , and ungodly people , as Sacred , and other ●i●●ories do s●sficiently manifest . Dub. It may be feared that there are discontented persons who are like wrangling Gamsters , that having a bad game dealt , them desire the Cards might be shuffl'd again that they might have a better Stock , but I am perswaded many would conform were there a Toleration in Reference to some Ceremonies as has been said , and the Renouncing of the Covenant not enjoyn'd . Firm. You have had my opinion as to a Toleration in point of Ceremonies ; as to the Covenant , tho it h●s been the opinion of several moderate men that it had been better if it had dyed without any such solemn Act for ' its Abrenunti●tion , yet being it was peccant in all the four causes , the Efficient , Formal , Material , and Final , 't was expedient in some respects for the Parliament to vote that it should be Renounced by all that expect Preferment in the Church of England , and I do not see how any man who conceives himself bound by it can be a faithful Subject to His Prince ; besides there seems to be a signal judgment in it , that the Covenant which was used as an Engine to remove the Cavaleers out of their Livings , should have the same effect upon the Contrivers and ●igid Imposers of it ; for many of those were undon because they would not take it , these because they would not Renounce it . — Nec lex est justior ulla , — Quam necis artifices arte perire sua . 'T is Justice Law that he should feel the smart , Who was first Author of that cruel Art. I remember what Tacitus sayes of Cajus Vibius . Eò immitior quia toleraverat . And 't is like that the Cavileers having such a hard measure from the imposition of the Covenant , would when power was in their hands , make use of the Law of Retaliation , by driving on the Act for Renouncing the Covenant ; and peradventure in some men there might be a grain or more of the Spirit of Revenge not beseeming Christian Charity , how ever 't is a remarkable peice of Divine Providence , that those who Pressed the Covenant upon their Brethren without mercy , should suffer by it without mercy . Dub. But as long as men have so little of a Christian spirit in them , as to act by the Law of Retaliation , of Spite and Revenge , there is little of Peace and Unity to be expected . Firm. We ought not to judge Acts of Parliament to be the Efforts of Revenge and Spite , as for the Act about the Covenant there was some kind of necessity for it , as to make tryal who were Loyal and Obedient Subjects , who not , for as 't was said before , he that conceives himself bound by the Scotc●-Chaine cannot be a good English Subject . However if the Suspending of that Act would assuredly unite us in Love and Peace , I hartily wish that 't were not prest upon those that are of a quiet and peaceable Spirit , agreeing with us in the most necessary Points of Religion , that so we that have one Faith , one Baptisme , one Hope , one Lord Iesus Christ , one God the Father of all , might keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace , which is both our duty and our interest , if we consider what advantage the Papists make of those divisions which are too many amongst us , the Seeds whereof have been Sown by the Roman-Emissarys . Dub. 'T is not to be doubted but that peace and unity and love among our selves , would much dishearten those restless Enemies of our Church and State , who le●ve no Stone unturn'd to divide us that they might Reign over us and perswade us by their most cogent Arguments , ( which are Gun-Powder , Fire and Fagot , Bloody Massacres ) to embrace their gross Superstition : and cause Religion and Primitive Christianity to flourish in our miserable divided Nation , while that time which is now spent in vain wranglements and un-Christian contentions would be better imploy'd in devout Prayer , Holy Meditation , in Mortification of our Corruptions , in duties of Piety towards Almighty God , of Love , Mercy , and Charity one towards another . And now Sir , give me leave to pay you my very hearty acknowledgments , for the profitable pains which you have taken to bring me out of those Bracks , and Bogs of Atheisme , Infidelity , Schisme , and Heresy unto my Old Mother the Church of Engl●nd , in whose Faith and Communion , Thou O Father of Mercies , Prince of Peace , and God of all Consolation , ever blessed and most Sacred Trinity ● grant that I may continue unto ●y Lives end , and that I may so continue , I beg your daily Prayers . Firm. 'T is our great Christian duty , to Pray one for another . I shall not be wanting in the performance of it , for your establishment in the true Ancient Catholick Christianity , and I earnestly beseech you to remember me in your frequent intercessions , and supplications at the Throne of Grace . Blessed be the God of all power , and wisdome who has thus prosper'd my weak endeavours in converting you from the error of your waies . I will ad no more but this ; that you be true to the Doctrine , Worship , Discipline of our Church , as they are contain'd in the Articles , Liturgie , Canons , and Rubricks of it , hold not any truth in Unrighteousness , let your practise shew to the World , that you truly and heartily believe what you profess , be honest , just in your Dealings towards men , Temperate , and Sober towards your selfe , serious , and single hearted in all duties of piety towards God , and whatsoever things are honest , whatsoever things are true , whatsoever things are just , Holy , Lovely , of good report , Think on these things , Practise these things , make not the actions of men , the Customs and Examples of these loose and evil Times , humane Laws , your rule to walk by , but let the holy will and word of God , be the adequate measure of your Life , and Conversation walk conscientiously according to this rule , and Peace , and Mercy shalll be upon you , as a true Israelite , and one of Gods Peculiar People . Amen . FINIS . ERRATA . PAge 9. l. 11. read Dependent . p. 12. l. 10. for puting , r. putting . p. 21. for their r. there . p. 22. l. 3. leave our whether they be Pagans or Christians I know not . p. 38. l. 12. for Statues r. statutes . p. 70 l. 26. ● . some of the Church . p. 83. l. 12. for suspition r. superstition . p. 104. l. 20. potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse , is misplaced . p. 113. ●r . ● . ●ot ●ankfulness . p. 116.25 . r. licence . p. 119. l. 22. r. clear . p. 121. l. 25. ● . who was of . p. 123. l. 22. r. incorporated . p. 126. l. 28. r that have ruled well . p. 129. l. 13. r. stiled . p. 132. l , 29. r. that sit at the Stern . p. 133. l. 22. r. but not the end . p. 136. l. ● . r. throw away . p. 138. l. 19. r. by phansies p 140. l. 30. r. assistance . p. 155. l. 15. r. ●●t●rio●sly . ibid. 2● . 1 ▪ suspension . p. 1●5 . l. ●3 . r. suspensions . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A41388-e390 † Dr. Moors Antidote , and Dr. Stillings●eets Orig. Sacrae p●g . 395. Notes for div A41388-e3160 R. B. Notes for div A41388-e6630 C●●visse videas crescere non vides . see Mr. Pools Nullity of the Roman Faith. Cen●●l . 〈◊〉 S●ss . 12. C●n. 1. Non imagini , s●d numini sacrificamus . Ae Mr Fowes History . 2 Cor. 10.4 . Notes for div A41388-e10480 Prov. 24. Eccle. 8.2 . Rom. 13.1 . Pet. 2. Ier. 4.2 . Deut. 6.13 . Heb. 6.16 . 2. Cor. 1. Rev. 10.6 . 1 Cor. 1.14 . Act. 2. Math. 28. Notes for div A41388-e11560 1. Cor. 9. Notes for div A41388-e13100 ●po● . 2.3 . † 'T was not long since , that some of the Presbyterian a●d I●pendent perswasion were Deans and Ca●ons of Christ Church in Oxford ; such D●gnities not then thought to be useless and A●●i-christian ; why should they be esteemed so now ?