a letter from the duke of brandenburg, to several ministers of state, shewing his firm resolution to defend the protestant religion frederick i, king of prussia, 1657-1713. 1680 approx. 3 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 2 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a40412 wing f2108a estc r7128 12251548 ocm 12251548 57114 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a40412) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 57114) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 144:2) a letter from the duke of brandenburg, to several ministers of state, shewing his firm resolution to defend the protestant religion frederick i, king of prussia, 1657-1713. 1 sheet (2 p.) printed for t. davis, london : 1680. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism. broadsides -england -17th century. 2006-12 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-01 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-02 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2007-02 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a letter from the duke of brandenburg , to several ministers of state ; shewing his firm resolution to defend the protestant religion . gentlemen , i shall be aware both how and with whom i engage , for through the conduct of all the affairs of the confederates , since the rise of the war in the year 1672. their several projects have been no sooner formed but betrayed ; for , the jesuits being the ascendant , both laid a monarchical design and a total subversion of the protestant religion , all over europe , influencing most princes councils , by a powerful operation of money , both from rome and france , which is plentifully bestowed , and was gratefully received and tho the jesuits seem ▪ to carry on several interests , being the guidance of many princes , yet craftily center their designs in the most potent . and i too sensibly know , that when i commanded the imperial forces , my destruction was levell'd at , by the jesuitical cabal , by those i assisted , which caused me timely to withdraw . now therefore amidst these disadvantages , can i promise any better success ? i have many motives to induce my belief , that the same design is vigorously carrying on , though in a seeming peace ; nothing therefore can be of efficacy to protect us , till we new model our affairs , and by a strict sincere re-union , and fixt resolution to go through the work , and to make an utter dismission of all the jesuits , who lye lurking in our bosoms only to confound us . but , i fear some are so infatuated by them , as not to pursue my advise , till desolation and misery overtake them : and for my part i will strictly observe it my self , and for ever defie their pestilent notions , and stand upon my guard , and assume the glory , though i be forsaken by all , and chuse rather to dye with the sword in my hand , in defence of my country and protestant religion , than survive under the tyranny of france and malignancy of rome ; for i am sure in what place soever it dilates it self , a deluge of misery will be brought along with it , both by oppression and idolatry . finis london , printed for t. davis . 1680. the speech of the prince of orange, to some principle gentlemen of somersetshire and dorsetshire on their coming to joyn his highness at exeter the 15th of nov., 1688. william iii, king of england, 1650-1702. 1688 approx. 3 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a66221 wing w2480 estc r99 12623891 ocm 12623891 64607 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a66221) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 64607) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 969:25) the speech of the prince of orange, to some principle gentlemen of somersetshire and dorsetshire on their coming to joyn his highness at exeter the 15th of nov., 1688. william iii, king of england, 1650-1702. 1 sheet ([1] p.9 printed by j.b., extern : 1688. reproduction of original in bristol public library, bristol, england. broadside. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism -political aspects. church and state -england -early works to 1800. broadsides 2008-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-06 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-07 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2008-07 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the speech of the prince of orange , to some principle gentlemen of somersetshire and dorsetshire , on their coming to joyn his highness at exeter the 15th of nov. 1688. tho' we know not all your persons , yet we have a catalogue of your names , and remember the character of your worth and interest in your country . you see we are come according to your invitation and our promise . our duty to god obliges us to protect the protestant religion , and our love to mankind , your liberties and properties . we expected you that dwelt so near the place of our landing , would have join'd us sooner , not that it is now too late , nor that we want you military assistance so much as your countenance , and presence , to justifie our declar'd pretentions ; rather than accomplish our good and gracious designs . tho' we have brought both a good fleet , and a good army , to render these kingdoms happy , by rescuing all protestants from popery , slavery , and arbitrary power ; by restoring them to their rights and properties established by law , and by promoting of peace and trade , which is the soul of government , and the very life-blood of a nation ; yet we rely more on the goodness of god and the justice of our cause , than on any humane force and power whatever . yet since god is pleased we shall make use of humane means , and not expect miracles , for our preservation and happiness : let us not neglect making use of this gracious opportunity , but with prudence and courage , put in execution our so honourable purposes . therefore gentlemen , friends and fellow-protestants , we bid you and all your followers most heartily wellcome to our court and camp. let the whole world now judge , if out pretentions are not just , generous , sincere , and above price ; since we might have , even a bridge of gold , to return back ; but it is our principle and resolution rather to dye in a good cause , than live in a bad one , well knowing that vertue and true honour is its own reward , and the happiness of mankind our great and only design . finis . exeter , printed by j. b. 1688. to the kings most excellent majesty the humble petition and address of the lord mayor, aldermen, and commons of the city of london. 1680 approx. 3 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a62765 wing t1520 estc r2503 12129647 ocm 12129647 54704 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a62765) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 54704) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 900:15) to the kings most excellent majesty the humble petition and address of the lord mayor, aldermen, and commons of the city of london. charles ii, king of england, 1630-1685. 1 sheet ([1] p.) printed for francis smith ..., london : 1680. reproduction of original in huntington library. broadside. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng city of london (england). -court of common council. protestantism. broadsides 2008-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-02 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2008-08 spi global rekeyed and resubmitted 2008-09 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2008-09 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion to the kings most excellent majesty . the humble petition and address of the lord mayor , aldermen , and commons of the city of london . we your majesties most dutiful and loyal subjects being deeply sensible , and apprehensive of the great danger your royal person , the protestant religion , and the good constitution of this kingdom , have been , and [ as we have reason to fear , ] are still in , do with all humble thankfulness acknowledge your majesties great grace and goodness in causing the parliament to meet , and sit , to the great satisfaction of this city , and of all your good subjects at home , and the comfort & encouragemnt of all your protestant neighbours abroad , and for your most gracious speech at the opening thereof , in those assurances you were pleased to renew for the security of the protestant religion , and in recommending to their care the suppression of popery , and the prosecution of the horrid popish plot , with a strict and impartial inquiry , without which , neither your royal person , nor your good subjects can be in any safety . and we being also sensible how much the happy conclusion of this session of parliament will conduce to those ends , do most humbly beseech your majesty , that you would be graciously pleased to hearken and incline to the humble advice of that your great councel , for the safety of your royal person , the preservation of the protestant religion , the quieting and uniting the minds of all your good subjects , and for securing the peace of this your great city , and the whole kingdom . and we do in most dutiful manner , and with unanimous consent , humbly assure your majesty , that in pursuit of those councels , your great city of london will be ready at all times to promote your majesties ease and prosperity , and stand by your majesty against all dangers and hazards whatsoever . and as in duty bound shall always pray for your majesties long life , and happy reign , &c. novembr the 12th . 1680. it was now agreed and ordered by this court ( nemine contradicente , ) that the humble petition and address to his majesty from this court now drawn ●p , and here read , be presented to his majesty as soon as conveniently may be ; and the right honourable the lord mayor , attended with mr. sheriffs , is desired from this court , to present the same to his majesty accordingly . london , printed for francis smith at the sign of the elephant and castle in cornhil near the royal exchange . mdclxxx . bp carletons testimonie concerning the presbyterian discipline in the low-countries, and episcopall government here in england. vvherein is briefly discovered the novelty of the one, and antiquity of the other; with a short taste of the inconveniences that attend the new plat-forme, where that is set up in the roome of the old primitive government. published for the common good. carleton, george, 1559-1628. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a80351 of text r2006 in the english short title catalog (thomason e107_18). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 7 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a80351 wing c585 thomason e107_18 estc r2006 99861308 99861308 113440 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a80351) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 113440) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 19:e107[18]) bp carletons testimonie concerning the presbyterian discipline in the low-countries, and episcopall government here in england. vvherein is briefly discovered the novelty of the one, and antiquity of the other; with a short taste of the inconveniences that attend the new plat-forme, where that is set up in the roome of the old primitive government. published for the common good. carleton, george, 1559-1628. [4], 4 p. printed for nath: butter, london : 1642. annotation on thomason copy: "july 5th". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng episcopacy -history -17th century -early works to 1800. presbyterianism -history -17th century -early works to 1800. protestantism -history -17th century -early works to 1800. a80351 r2006 (thomason e107_18). civilwar no bp carletons testimonie concerning the presbyterian discipline in the low-countries, and episcopall government here in england.: vvherein i carleton, george 1642 1210 1 0 0 0 0 0 8 b the rate of 8 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-03 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-04 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2007-04 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion bp carletons testimonie concerning the presbyterian discipline in the low-covntries , and episcopall government here in england . vvherein is briefly discovered the novelty of the one , and antiquity of the other ; with a short taste of the inconveniences that attend the new plat-forme , where that is set up in the roome of the old primitive government . published for the common good . tolle episcopos , & tot erunt schismata , quot homines . london , printed for nath : butter . 1642. to the readers . if you are of those that are disaffected to the church-government by law established amongst us , i wish this small tract into your hands to choose , to be read and considered of by you with your most serious thoughts , that so it may help on your conversion . doe not cast it away ere you have perused it , because here a bishop speaks in his own cause . with the same reason a conformable man may cast away smectymnuus , because there so many presbyterians speak their own cause . reade it . the author ( however some of your perswasion beare the world in hand most injuriously , and most cunningly , that a rotchet must necessarily cover a papists heart ) was all his life , at flat defiance with rome ; and had he been called to the fiery tryall , doubtlesse he would have followed cranmer , ridley , latimer , hooper , those famous protestant bishops even to the stake , and sealed that doctrine with his bloud , which his tongue and pen published to the world . among other tracts of his now extant , he hath a book forth against pelagianisme and arminianisme . the book styled thankfull remembrances speaks likewise this bishop author ; a book which no friend to rome would certainly ever have written . let him be then your remembrancer , and unprejudiced by you , ( notwithstanding his lawne sleeves ) prevail so far with you to move you , if you finde he delivers truth to change your mindes in case you be now schismaticall in the point of church-government . this learned man was one of those sent by that blessed peace-maker , our late famous soveraigne king james to the synod of dort upon a friendly errand : i would to god this solid and honest piece of his might helpe to make faire accord at home in his own countrey , which so much needs pacification now in the church as well as the state . i shall not despaire , but that it may conduce somewhat toward the one , so parciali●y and all prejudicate opinions be laid aside . it was a good saying of a great scholar , amicus plato , &c. plato is our very good friend , so is socrates , and so aristotle , but truth is a much dearer friend . somewhat like this would you would say once and hold to it , amicus calvinus , &c. calvin is our very good friend , so is beza , and so cartwright , but truth is by much our dearer friend . were these your mindes and resolutions , you would no longer wish that yoake of discipline on your necks , which this honest bishop will tell you in the next leafe , the netherlanders groane under and would faine cast off . so i refer you to the bishop , i for my part have done with you , when i have assured you this is a true draught of learned carlton ; and onely farther ( which civility requires ) bid you farewell . bp carletons testimony concerning the presbyterian discipline in the low-countries , and episcopal government here in england . touching the point of their discipline in the low-countries , i can witnesse that they are weary of it , & would gladly be freed if they could . vvhen we were to yeeld our consent to the belgick confession at dort , i made open protestation in the synode , that whereas in the confession there was inserted a strange conceit of the parity of ministers , to be instituted by christ ; i declared our discent utterly in that point ; i shewed , that by christ a parity was never instituted in the church ; that he ordained 12. apostles , and also 70. disciples ; that the authority of the 12. was above the other ; that the church preserved this order left by our saviour . and therfore when the extraordinary authority of the apostles ceased , yet their ordinary authority continued in bishops who succeeded them , who were by the apostles themselves left in the government of the church to ordaine ministers , and to see that they who were so ordained , should preach no other doctrine ; that in an inferiour degree the ministers that were governed by bishops , who succeeded the 70. disciples ; that this order hath been maintained in the church , from the time of the apostles ; and herein i appealed to the judgement of antiquity , and to the judgement of any learned man now living , and craved herein to be satisfied , if any man of learning could speak to the contrary . a my lord of salisbury is my witnesse , and so are all the rest of our b company , who spake also in the cause . to this there was no answer made by any ; whereupon we conceived that they yeelded to the truth of the protestation . and somewhat i can say of mine owne knowledge , for i had conference with divers of the best learned in that synode , i told them that the cause of all their troubles was this , that they had no bishops amongst them , who by their authority might represse turbulent spirits , that broached novelties . every man had liberty to speak or write what he list , and as long as there were no ecclesiasticall men in authority to represse and censure such contentious spirits , their church could never be without trouble : their answer was , that they did much honour and reverence the good order and discipline of the church of england , and with all their hearts would be glad to have it established amongst them ; but that could not be hoped for in their state . their hope was , that seeing they could not do what they desired , god would be mercifull to them if they did what they could . this was their answer , which i thinke is enough to excuse them , that they doe not openly aime at an anarchie , and popular confusion . the truth is , they groane under that burden , and would be eased if they could . this is well knowne to the rest of my associates there . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a80351e-420 a b. davenant . b. hall . b d. ward . d. goad . d. balcanquall . partridge's advice to the protestants of england. partridge, john, 1644-1715. 1678 approx. 7 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). b04919 wing p615 interim tract supplement guide c.20.f.2[314] 99890930 ocm99890930 181635 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. b04919) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 181635) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books; tract supplement ; a1:1[317]) partridge's advice to the protestants of england. partridge, john, 1644-1715. 1 sheet ([1] p.). s.n., [london : 1678?] in verse. first line of text "now, to your cost, you see with grief and tears,"; first line of first stanza "touch't with a teeming strain of english growth,". place and date from wing (cd-rom, 1996). other suggested dates of publication 1682 and 1687, with the latter based on british library sloane ms. 2281. reproduction of original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism -poetry -early works to 1800. 2008-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-09 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-11 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2008-11 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion partridge's advice to the protestants of england . now , to your cost , you see with grief and tears , the tricking shams of the proceeding years : you that now see , scorn'd to believe it then impos'd upon , even by the worst of men. now hang your freedom on each villains sword ; cheated your selves , taking your princes word . thus folly still helps to compeeat your fate : and all that can be said , you repent to late . but , come , chear up , heaven will relieve your need ; 't is from that throne , your happy fates decreed . he had his orders then to spare you too : a 〈◊〉 ●●●…ipping is the scholars due . the troops of gods are brought you to carress : the dextrous arts of priests and idleness . religions scandal , to encrease rome 's store ; which fools believe , and mad men do adore . tricks made by priests , the ignorant to surprise . who sacred writ and reason do despise : but you know better , and have oft been told of those damn'd cheats , you know they want your gold. preserve your faith , your ancestors have won : you know the truth , the mistick three in one. stoop not to idols , nor lay reason by . give not your faith up , nor yet tamely die . the sun will rise , the actors fill the stage : and one and twenty months is not an age. therefore be wise , attend the hand divine , till the still voice gives you the sacred sign . i. touch't with a teeming strain of english growth , my burning muse into a flame breaks forth in sacred passions , scorns to be afraid of those vast murders pious rome hath made . a gracious mother , merciful and good , her thoughts are murder , and her bosom's blood . ii. the priests of rome are like their mother true , lazy and letcherous , yet obedient too ; furnish'd with all the vice that nature gives : they are the only epicures that lives . yet they converse with god , disperse their powers , confess your wives , and also get you heirs . iii. of all the arts the devil yet made choice , this thing of popery was his master-piece . for in revenge with heaven , being at ods , he taught the papists how to eat their gods. then 't would not be amiss , since thus they do , to make clear work , and eat the devil too . iv. can you forswear your faith , give god the lye , cant with a priest , and lay your reason by : lay down your wealth to serve the church & they that suck your blood , when they pretend to pray ? can ye be priest-rid , and be aw'd by threats ? can ye believe a crew of pious cheats ? v. can ye believe a little dow-bak'd god , a conjuring bell , and a good-friday rod , a lying legend , and a priestly curse , a dish of holy-water , and a cross ? when rome grows rampant , hell it self contrives . when satan preacheth , belzebub believes . vi. what man can think the inquisition good , when church-men wash their hands in lay-mens blood ? can ye adore a cross , be damn'd in jest , cheat all your senses , and believe a priest ? heretick can't believe , ye 're only fit . true slaves to rome will never question it . vii . should but a priest say to his zealot , go murder that heretick : it must be so ; he dares not ask the reason : goes his ways , the father says it ; and the fool obeys . what man of sense , but must amazed stand , to see fools act , what bloody rogues command ? viii . consider france and spain , see what 's there done ; under what plagues those neighbouring nations groan . and all this done by holy churches care : for where priests sway , be sure oppressions there . priest ! p — on the name , i loath the very smell : they 'r wretched things , scarce good enough for hell. ix . the flux of fate , that gives us hopes and fears , sets rome in triumph ; london all in tears . that brood , by flames , that made your city rue , will , if they can , next burn your bodies too . rome's bloody bigots , londons fate once chang'd ; yet of a crew of rogues , but one fool hang'd . x. apostate church ; a faith built up in blood. a lazy priest , a little sensless god. all their religions lyes : its proofs a sin . when scripture fails , then miracles come in . yet nee'r forget , nor it forgive them knaves , while martyr'd godfrey's blood for vengeance craves . xi . creation , what is that ? what noyse ye make ? the thing 's not strange that priests do undertake ; nay , and do more , the church hath here the odds , god made but man , but now the priests make gods. never be bubled by a popish lye , rather than that , resolve revenge , and dye . xii . let not rom's court , hozo proud , e're expect on english men her lawless laws t' erect ; nor let the popish-brood think to controul one single attom of a true english soul : god loaths their worship , they hate holy writ , we hate their faith , hell waits to punish it . an act for securing of the protestant religion as it was passed in the parliament of scotland, on saturday, august 13, 1681. scotland. 1681 approx. 10 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a58564 wing s1099 estc r6422 13704194 ocm 13704194 101463 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a58564) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 101463) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 848:29) an act for securing of the protestant religion as it was passed in the parliament of scotland, on saturday, august 13, 1681. scotland. scotland. parliament. 1 sheet ([1] p.) for andrew forrester ..., printed at london : 1681. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church and state -law and legislation. protestantism -scotland. broadsides -england -london -17th century 2008-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-12 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2009-01 scott lepisto sampled and proofread 2009-01 scott lepisto text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an act for securing of the protestant religion , as it was past in the parliament of scotland , on saturday august 13. 1681. our soveraign lord considering how necessary it is for securing the protestant religion , and that all his good subjects may be fully assured that the popish religion shall never be introduced or tolerat in this kingdom ; and that the many excéllent laws made in favours of his protestant subjects are of the protestant religion against popery , may attain the affected execution : that none but true and sencere protestants exercise any publick trust within this kingdom ; and that no iesuit , priest , nor trafiquing papist , who may withdraw or withold his subjects from the protestant religion , be suffered to be or abyd in this kingdom . and seeing the acts for excluding papists from publick trust have no special penalties adjected thereto , and that there may be a clear test to discover papists ; therefore his majesty , with advice and consent of his estates of parliament , statutes and declares , that whosoever being required by any minister of the church or magistrate of the kingdom , do not subscribe the confession of faith subjoyned to the third act of the first parliament of king james 6. shall be holden and reputed papists ; or who shall refuse to swear the oath subjoyned to the said confession , and signe the same in this form : i — or — we do declare and swear by the eternal god , whom we call to be judge and witness of our sincerity herein , that we assent to the said confession of faith according to the ordinary meaning of the word , without equivocation , mental reservation , and without accepting any dispensation , that we shall never endeavour or consent to any alteration of the foresaid confession of faith. and his majesty , with consent and advice foresaid , statutes and ordains , that all who now are in any publick trust , shall betwixt and the day of next to come , take the said test in some of the places wherein they serve , and report the same to his majesties privy council , and that all who shall hereafter at any time be admitted to any place , office , commission , or employment , ecclesiastical , civil , or military , shall at their entry thereto take the said test , and renew the same when required , under the paine of confiscation of their lands , which his majesty now as then annexes to the crown ; and shall confiscat all sums of money heretable or movable , and all movable goods , for the use under-written . like as his majesty with consent foresaid , ordains all the ministers who are or shall be in this church , to declare upon oath to their ordinary at each diocesion meeting , whom they know or suspect within their several parichons to be in orders or monastick vows of the church of rome , or other trafiquing papists whom they know or suspect to be the ressetters or hearers of them say mass or preach , and where their residence or haunts are ; and whom they know or suspect to be papists in their several paroches : and that the bishops call before them the persons so delated , and use their best endeavours to convince them of their errour , and unite them to this protestant church , and offer to them the foresaid test ; and in case of their absence and obstinacy , that they proceed to excommunication : and that they yearly send an account of their diligence to his majesties privy-council , in the moneth of november ; and that they give a list of the persons delated to all the iudges ordinary in burghs or landwards within their respective diocies ; who are hereby ordained to take all other tryal for the discovery of those in orders or monastick vows of the church of rome , and other trafiquing papists , or other papists : and that they take the oaths of all members of the kirck-session , except the minister , within the several iurisdictions , for making of the like declaration once at least every year ; and that they use all diligence to put the laws in execution against the persons discovered or delated , as afforesaid : and that they return account of their diligence to his majesties privy-council once every year in the moneth of november , beginning in november next , with certification that whosoever shall fail in their respective diligences above-written , shall omit their years benefice or stipend , and the said magistrates that years rent , in which they shall happen to fail to diligences , as afforesaid . likeas his majesty , with consent foresaid , declares , that all escheats , life-rents , and other penalties that shall befal by the execution of this statute , or any of the former statutes against papists , except the lands to which they have redeemable right , shall belong and be divided in manner following ; viz. one third part of the sums whereon infeftment have not followed , to the poor of the paroch where the party transgresses and resides , and the movable goods to the poor of the paroches when they are found ; and the sums whereupon infeftment or other affectable diligence lies followed , to the poor of the paroch where such lands lie respective , except of the life-rent of such papists who are not amongst the trafiquers before innumerat , which may be gifted as his majesty shall see fit : an● another third part of the saids confiscations , to belong to the vniversities and colledges , viz. all within the vniversity of st. andrews , to the vniversity of st. andrews ; except the diocies of esr . to the colledges of esr . and the diocies of aberdeen and morray , to the colledges of aberdeen ; and all within the province of glasgow , to the colledge of glasgow : and the other third part of the foresaids confiscationes , to belong to publick works of the several shires , to ●e applied and managed by the iudges ordinary , as iustices of peace , or commissioners of excise , when there are no iustices of the peace : and ordains all persons who are intrusted for the said societies pensions and vses , to be liable for diligence to make the same effectual . and further his majesty , with advice and consent foresaid , statutes and ordains and declares , that all kings and queens who shall succeed to the imperial crown of this kingdom in time coming , at the entry to their government , and also at their coronation , shall promise and swear in presence of the eternal god , whom they call as iudge and witness of their sincere meaning and intention , to observe , without dispensation from any creature , the oath contained in the eighth act of the first parliament of king james 6. and shall also swear , that they shall not endeavour or consent to the alteration or change of the protestant religion , nor to the abrogation or derogation of the laws made for the same : that they preserve and defend this protestant church in the just rights and priviledges thereof , as now by law established : that they shall give no grant of any trust , office , or employment within this church or kingdom , but whom they believe to be of the true protestant religion : and that they shall always allow & never hinder the standing and executing of the laws for removing of priests or others in orders or monastick vows to the church of rome , out of any office , place , or trust , or employment eclesiastick , civil , or military , within this kingdom ; and shall invincibly preserve the liberty and property of the subjects of this kingdom , as the lord and father of mercy shall be merciful to them : and ordains , that any regent , tutor , or governor , that shall be named to and king or queen in this kingdom , shall take the foresaid oath at their entry to their government ; which oaths shall be written and subscribed at the times of taking thereof above-written , and shall be registred and recorded in the books of parliament , privy-council , and sessions . and likewise his majesty , with consent foresaid , statutes and ordains , that the nearest person to himself of the royal family , shall solemnly swear that he shall never endeavour or consent to the alteration of the protestant religion in this kingdom , or to the abrogation of the laws made for the same , and shall never hinder the standing and executing of the laws made for removing out of this kingdom all priests and others in orders and monastical vows of the church of rome , and other trafiquing papists who shall endeavour to withdraw the subjects of this kingdom from the protestant religion ; or the laws made for removing from all places of trust in this kingdom in church , state , or armies , any person whatsoever that shall not subscribe the confession of faith and oath subjoyned thereto ; which is hereby declared sufficient in place of any other test for exercising and injoyning any place or office civil or military within this kingdom . and that whensoever any other who shall hereafter become nearest to the king in the blood-royal for the time being major , or attaining that age , he shall then immediately swear and subscribe the foresaid oath ; which oath shall be recorded in the books of parliament , council , and session . printed at london for andrew forrester , in kings street , westminster . 1681. a protestant of the church of england, no donatist, or, some short notes on lucilla and elizabeth sherlock, william, 1641?-1707. 1686 approx. 16 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-05 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a59859 wing s3331 estc r15108 12005909 ocm 12005909 52314 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a59859) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 52314) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 878:13) a protestant of the church of england, no donatist, or, some short notes on lucilla and elizabeth sherlock, william, 1641?-1707. [2], 6 p. printed for t. basset ..., london : 1686. reproduction of original in huntington library. attributed to william sherlock. cf. bm. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism. donatists. 2003-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-12 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-02 john latta sampled and proofread 2004-02 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a protestant . of the church of england , no donatist . or , some short notes on lucilla and elizabeth . licensed , decemb. 8. 1686. london , printed for t. basset , at the george , near st. dunstan's church , in fleetstreet . 1686. (a) lucilla and elizabeth . (b) or , donatist and protestant (c) schism parallel'd . donatism . protestancy . 1. ordain'd anti-bishops . 1. ordain'd anti-bishops . an anti-bishop is one set up against another lawfull bishop , in the same diocese . 1. svch the papists have in ireland , as the donatists had . 1. such the church of england has not , that we know of ; and if there be any such , they must be popish anti-bishops . 2. erected anti-altars . 2. erected anti-tables . 2. there can be no anti-altars , nor anti-tables , where there are no anti-bishops . 3. impeach'd all other churches of apostacy . 3. impeach'd the whole church of superstition , idolatry , and antichristianism . 3. rome , like the donatist , does this ; for she allows of no true churches , but what are in communion with , and subjection to the pope . 3. no , only the church of rome , and not so as to unchurch her neither , as donatists and papists do . 4. communicated with no other church in religious offices . 4. communicates , in sacred duties , with no christian society . 4. thus papists communicate with none but in their own communion ; and that is to communicate with no other church . 4. we reject no christians , who will communicate with us ; and are ready to communicate with all churches , who do not impose sinfull terms of communion , nor require a corrupt worship . 5. appeal'd from the churches sentence in a spiritual cause to a lay-prince . 5. appeal'd from the churches decrees to the princes supremacy , advancing it in all spiritual cases , above any authority ecclesiastical , whatsoever . 5. popes have deposed princes , and absolved subjects from their oaths of fidelity , which is a greater crime . 5. the supremacy we allow to princes is not the exercise of any spiritual power , but such a power as the catholick church has always allowed to christian princes , viz. to have the supreme government of the church in their dominions , as incorporated into the state ; which must be allowed to sovereign power , or it is not sovereign . 6. yet continued the catholick creed , sacraments , liturgies , regiment and solemnities , as they were before the schism . 6. continues baptism and the creed ( in most articles ) but errs concerning the eucharist and other our lord's sacraments , abrogating the liturgies , rites , canons , fasts and festivals ; as also the spiritual iurisdiction of the church , and canonical obedience to the western patriarch . 6. this the church of rome does not , but has done that which is worse , viz. corrupted the catholick faith ; not by denying any article of the creed , but by adding new doctrines to it ; by increasing the number , and altering the nature of sacraments ; by corrupting liturgies , and the fasts and festivals of the church ; and so are much worse , upon this account , than the donatists , who did not corrupt the christian faith. 6. we retain the whole faith , and institutions of christ , intire ; which , i hope , is no fault , either in donatists , or in the church of england . we retain the ancient use of fasts and festivals ; and vindicate our just liberties from the usurpations of the bishop of rome ; who is not contented to be the western patriarch , but will be an universal bishop , the sovereign head of the church , and infallible judge of controversies . by which extravagant claims , he justly forfeits even that patriarchal right , which the canons of the church formerly allowed him , in honour to the imperial city , of which he was bishop : for when a grant upon meer courtesy is improved into tyranny and usurpation , there is no obligation to continue those respects , which are now challenged not upon courtesy , but as an original and inviolable right ; and improved , from honourable respects , into empire and unlimited jurisdiction . however , we need not trouble our selves with this dispute . the brittish churches , for six hundred years after christ , never had any dependance on rome ; and what was after this was only usurpation , and an usurped authority may be renounced without schism . a. st. augustin's censure against the donatists involving protestants . a. and why not involving papists as well as protestants ? for we have less to do with donatism than they have . what st. austin says against the donatists is upon the account of their schism , and may indeed be applied to other schismaticks : but before they can be applied to us , they must prove us to be schismaticks ; which is not so easy to do , as to take it for granted ; which our author , i see , is most inclined to . but , if the schismatick should fall to their own share , they must take the censure of st. austin to themselves . b. yov [ donatists ] are with us [ catholics ] in baptism , in the creed , and in the rest of our lord's sacraments ; but in the spirit of vnity , in the bond of peace , lastly , in the catholick church it self , you are not with us . b. to agree in faith and worship , and yet to divide communion , is certainly a notorious schism . and thus st. austin proves the donatists to be schismaticks ; that they had the same baptism , the same creed , the same sacraments , but would not communicate with them ; and thereby divided themselves from the catholick church ; did not preserve the spirit of vnity in the bond of peace , but refused to own themselves of the same church . and this must be schism ; for nothing can justify a separation , but a corruption of faith or worship . but the case is vastly different between us and the church of rome . for we have not the same creed , the same sacraments , and the same worship : the council of trent has added a great many new articles to our creed ; has made a great many new sacraments , and corrupted the old ones , and has introduced a new and strang worship , the worship of saints and angels , and service in an unknown tongue , into the christian church . and this is the reason not of our separating from , but of their flinging us out of their communion . and this case st. austin says nothing of ; but we are ready to prove , that it is no schism . c. the sacraments of christ , which in the sacrilege of schism you [ donatists ] have to iudgment , will be profitable and wholsom to you , when you shall have the head , christ , in catholic peace , where charity will cover a multitude of sins . c. if they apply this to us , then they must at least grant , that we have very good sacraments in our church , such as are profitable and wholsom ; and convey to us all the vertue and benefit of sacraments , till they can prove us guilty of schism : and we desire to injoy the benefit of our sacraments no longer . d. whosoever believes christ jesus to be come in the flesh , &c. but yet so dissent from his body , which is his church , as that their communion is not with the whole , wherever diffused , but is found separated in some part , 't is manifest they are not in the catholic church . d. this was a good argument in st. austin's time ; when the whole catholick church was in one communion , without any corruptions in faith and worship to justifie a separation . for , in this case , whoever separated from any society of christians , separated from the whole christian church ; and nothing else was necessary to prove them schismaticks , but only their separation ; which was as visible a schism , as tearing an arm or leg from the body . for when the whole church was one communion , without any corruptions of faith or worship , there could be no dispute which was the true catholick church ; and to separate from the catholick church is certainly schism . this was the case of the donatists , against whom st. austin wrote that book de vnitate . they had nothing to object against the faith or worship of the catholick church ; but only pretended , that they communicated with traditors , or those who were ordained by them , that is , with those who , in the times of persecution , delivered up their bibles to the persecutors ; which yet was not so great a fault as taking away the bible from the people , ( which if they had not had in those days , they could not have delivered it ) and persecuting those who use it . but when the church is divided in faith and worship , into a great many different and opposite communions , it is a ridiculous thing for any part of the church to call it self the whole ; and then to charge others , as st. austin does the donatists , with separating from the whole ; especially , when such a separation is occasioned by such corruptions as are dangerous to mens souls . which is vastly different from the state of the church in st. austin's time ; and therefore what he says cannot be immediately applied to us . they must first prove , that the roman church is the catholick church , and a pure and uncorrupt church ; and then we will grant , that not to communicate with them is schism . e. this church is the body of christ , as the apostle saith , col. 1. 24. for his body , which is his church . whence surely 't is manifest , that he who is no member of christ , cannot have christian salvation . but the members of christ are joyn'd to each other by the charity of vnity , and by the same [ charity ] do they cohere to their head , christ jesus . e. to separate from the body of christ is certainly schism ; but st. austin in the same place tells us , that there is a separation from the head , as well as from the body ; that is , from christ who is the head , as well as from his body , which is his church . the first is a schism occasioned by heresy ; the second is a causless schism without any corruption in faith and worship . so that he never intended that , for fear of schism , we should communicate with a very corrupt church ; but only warns us not to separate from the church of christ , when such a church does not separate from christ. but as far as any church , or society of christians , separates from christ , the head , so far we may and ought to separate from them . f. whosoever therefore is separated from this catholick church , how laudably soever he thinks himself to live , for this only crime , that he is disjoyn'd from the vnity of christ , he shall not have life , but the wrath of god abideth on him . f. as for the evil and danger of schism , we perfectly agree with this father ; and will say as ill things of it , as the church of rome her self can desire : but we are not afraid of these ill consequences of schism , while we are no schismaticks . g. now st. augustin places the donatists schism in their not joyning with catholicks in religious offices , in forsaking all christian assemblies , in not partaking with them of the eucharist , in prayers , &c. whence he concludes them not to belong to the catholic church , not to be members of christ ' s mystical body , not to have charity , not sacraments to benefit , not piety with hope , nor salvation . g. this is all very true , and this was the character of the donatist schism . they were charged with no heresy , for they were guilty of none ; but only with separating from the communion of the catholick church , in prayers , and sacraments , which is a separation ; and if it be causless , as it was in the donatists , has the guilt of schism : but is a very just separation , and no schism , if it have a just cause . h. have prelatical protestants of great britain and ireland any visible communion , in the eucharist or other divine service , with any christian church on earth ? if they have not , as is undeniable , then according to st. augustin , they are not in the catholic church , are not members of christ , are without charity , beneficial sacraments , hopeful holiness , and eternal salvation . h. do the prelatical protestants of great britain and ireland refuse communion with , or deny communion to , any church on earth , without a cause ? if they do not , they are innocent ; if they say we do , let them prove it . we have nothing in our worship that can hinder any christian ( not roman-catholicks themselves ) from communicating with us ; and then , if they will not do it , it is their own faults . we refuse communion with no church , with whom we can communicate without sin ; and it is no fault to refuse communion , when it cannot be had without sin. and therefore we are still in the catholick church , ( and , i believe , the best reformed part of the catholick church ; ) we are members of christ , have true christian charity ( so much even for the church of rome , that it is made by themselves an argument against us ) and therefore doubt not to receive all the benefit of sacraments ; and , if we live holily , to receive the fruits of it in eternal salvation . i. and this censure by so much the more justly belongs to them , as their schism is more consumacious , their calumnies against the catholick church more horrid , and their defection by heresie , as well as schism , wider than the donatists . i. contumacy can never be in a good cause , and that we are sure ours is . though had he known any thing of the story of the donatists , he would have known , that no man can be more constant , and vertuously steddy , in a good cause , than they were contumaciously obstinate in a bad one . we do not calumniate the catholick church , god forbid ! nay , not the roman church ; for though we say a great many ill things of them , they are true , and that is no calumny . and are we the greater schismaticks , because we justifie our separation , by laying the fault on the corruptions and innovations of the church of rome ? if the donatists could have done so , st. austin would not have thought them so much the worse schismaticks , but no schismaticks at all . and as for heresy , when this author can prove us guilty of that , we will allow our selves to be worse schismaticks than the donatists were . the end. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a59859-e110 (a) lvcilla , a private , though rich and powerfull woman , and therefore a fit patroness for a faction , but no legal reformer . (b) elizabeth , a sovereign princess , who had authority , in her own kingdoms , to reform the church ; which makes some difference between them . (c) papist had been here a more proper parallel , than a protestant , but that he is not so orthodox as a donatist , though as great a schismatick . notes for div a59859-e840 epist. 48. epist. 1 53. de vnitate ecclesiae , c. 4. cap. 2. epist. 1 53. a proposal of union amongst protestants, from the last-will of the most reverend doctor sands sometime archbishop of york (as the sentiment of the first reformers) humbly presented to the parliament. sandys, edwin, 1516?-1588. 1679 approx. 16 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 3 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-08 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a56021 wing p3709a estc r182167 12121261 ocm 12121261 54432 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a56021) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 54432) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 875:32) a proposal of union amongst protestants, from the last-will of the most reverend doctor sands sometime archbishop of york (as the sentiment of the first reformers) humbly presented to the parliament. sandys, edwin, 1516?-1588. 4 p. s.n., [london : 1679] reproduction of original in huntington library. caption title. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism -great britain -political aspects. -great britain. church and state -great britain. 2004-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-03 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-04 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-04 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a proposal of union amongst protestants , from the last-will of the most reverend doctor sands sometime archbishop of york ; ( as the sentiment of the first reformers ) humbly presented to the parliament . right honourable , for the divisions of reuben there once were great thoughts and searchings of heart ; and well may there be the like at this day for those among us in england , by which , not the seamless coat of christ , but his precious mystical body is miserably rent and torn in pieces . at this many are exceeding angry ( if from a right principle it is well ) , and complaints do every where abound ; but what , ah ! what is done in order to a cure ? some indeed have offer'd at it , but greatly mistaken their way , inflaming the wounds , instead of healing them . peace with god , and conscience , and among the brethren , is that legacy , which our dearest lord left unto his disciples . cordial and mutual love springing up in all expressions of kindness , is that amiable badg by which he would have them known in the world. in a word , vnion and communion among christians , is both the beauty and strength of the church ; that renders her lovely as a city compacted together , and terrible as an army with banners . hence it is , that our saviour did so earnestly pray his father , that his people might be one , and made perfect in one ; and paul did with utmost importunity press the philippians to have the same love , to be like minded , and of one accord . and oh ! that all , upon whom the name of christ is called , would carefully attend to this advice , and follow it , keeping the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace : for by this means our church would become a paradise , and earth a kind of heaven . to endeavour , and ( by the happy concurrence of a divine blessing ) to effect so great and good a work as unity in the church , and concord among christians , is most worthy of so august an assembly as an english parliament ; yea , of such a parliament as you are , whom we have many and many a year longed for , and do now with our souls rejoyce to see . what doth more nearly concern you , or what possibly can more highly exalt you in the love ▪ and esteem of all truly religious and sober persons both in the present and future generations , than your being instruments in the divine hand for the undoing of heavy burdens , breaking every oppressing yoke , and taking stumbling blocks out of the way , that all the sons and daughters of sion may worship god in the beauties of holiness , with one shoulder , and with one consent . and is not this a time for it ? is not this the time ? when can you find a fitter ? when can healing-endeavours be more in season ? violence of storms should drive the sheep together . desperate plots , practices and attempts of busie and irreconcilable enemies , should more closely and firmly unite jarring friends . hannibal is at the gate . the pope and his emissaries , the iesuits with their vassals , seek our ruine . they have been long travailing with mischief , and brought to the birth , and were at the very point of bringing forth , had not our gracious god wonderfully interposed both for discovery and prevention . oh! let not protestants devour one another , when their popish adversaries would devour all ; who are not yet satisfied , but as much as ever thirst for blood . besides , not only the rage of men , but the rod of god should teach us peace and quietness . it becomes us to give over our unchristian contendings with one another , seeing god hath with great severity in various ways contended with us all . sundry years we have been in the furnace of affliction , and should be so througly melted , as easily to run into one : i mean all those in england who fear god , and desire to see the king of saints in his beauty . i know there is an implacable enmity put by god himself between the seed of the woman , and the seed of the serpent ; and as luther saith , cain will murder abel to the end of the world . but if any , professing religion , should be of implacable spirits , resolved to carry their heats and animosities down with them to the grave , their speedy march off would be a mercy to the church and nation , unless god please to mollifie their hearts into a brotherly compliance upon good terms . and blessed be his name , there is a cementing , healing spirit to be found among many , very many in the nation , who long for peace , and pray for peace , and are most willing to deny themselves , and do any thing for peace , only they dare not forsake holiness , neglect their duty , nor wound their consciences by offending god : and i doubt not , but many of their brethren would go far to meet them , and welcom that day in which all middle-walls of partition shall be broken down . how sweet , how exceeding sweet is that passage lately dropt from the lip and pen of that very learned and reverend divine , dr. tillotson , being brethren upon so many accounts , and by so many bonds and endearments all united to one another , and all travelling toward the same countrey , why do we fall out by the way ? since we are brethren , why do we not , as becomes brethren , dwell together in unity ? his most excellent majesty ( under whose refrigerating shadow we have enjoyed so much tranquillity ) hath made frequent motions for the composing of differences among us ; but unto this day , too too few in place and power have written after so fair a copy , or trodden in the steps of his royal clemency . he hath now again in his late most gracious speech to your honours , propounded vnion as the end he ai●● at , and which , he wisheth , would be extended to protestants abroad as well as at home . a saying most highly becoming so great a prince , a defender of the faith , and unquestionably , chief of the protestant party . god grant he may live long , and act vigorously toward the effecting of so glorious a design , that not only we , but the children yet unborn may rise up and call him blessed . most noble sirs , give us leave with some confidence to hope , that you are like-minded , and herein will joyn issue with his sacred majesty . among those other weighty and arduous affairs which will be before you , be pleased , as our great physicians , to reach out to us an healing hand . a divine told us of late . that the church of england is ready with open arms to embrace those that do dissent ; and it may be rationally concluded , that dissenters are full out as ready to be embraced ; doubtless those that have been so long underfoot , and in the dust , having very hard measure meted out to them , would gladly be taken up now into the arms ; surely such unwonted kindness would fill their mouths with thankfulness , and put them into an extacy of joy provided there be nothing in the terms to choak them . it is no kindness to hug the man , and wound his conscience . may it please you , right honourable , with a tender hand , by a safe and right way , to bring them into the bosom of their mother . it is not for me , the meanest of ten thousand , to act the dictator ; no , no , i will turn orator , and humbly pray , that you may be all taught of god , and endued with a spirit of wisdom and understanding , to find out proper and effectual means and methods , for the bringing about this ever-to be desired harmony and accord among protestants . only this i crave leave with all humility and earnestness to beg , that what god hath not set up in the church , may be pull'd down ; and those things taken out of the way , which have been , and always will be bones of contention among persons truly learned and godly . may that be rejected as an innovation , which is not as old as the apostles ; and nothing imposed upon ministers or people , but what hath footing and warrant in the holy scriptures : oh that all dissenters would come up to the church of england , as far as ever they can with a good conscience ; and oh that they also may be so far condescended to . and certainly it can neither be prejudicial to the church to yield in those things which ( dissenters account sinful , and ) she her self calls indifferent ; and upon that score are at best but chips in porridg , not worth contending for . nor can it be any unhandsome or dishonourable reflexion upon our first renowned reformers , whose memory is deservedly dear to us ; for they did famously in this our israel , casting out abundance of filth and rubbish , laying a good foundation , and making an admirable progress in the structure ; yet such was the iniquity of the times , the rage of their enemies , and the opposition they met with , that they did not , nay they could not finish the work , nor add the top-stone to the reformation , but left something for their successors to do , which are you : the good lord give you an heart to do it . rome was not built , nor could it be pull'd down in a day , or in an age. since therefore his most sacred majesty , ( being thorowly sensible of the great advantage our common enemy , the papist , hath received by the breaches that have not only been made , but hitherto continued among such as profess the same faith ) , hath been graciously pleased to recommend to your special care the concern of the protestant interest , as well at home as abroad , and hath commanded the honourable the lord chancellor of england to acquaint you , that he judgeth it a thing necessary for you in your great wisdom , to find out some way for the relief of such protestants as do wander only from the church of england , thorow the tenderness of their consciences , being such as would not destroy it , but do build upon the same foundation with your selves ; i take upon me the humble boldness to offer to your honours serious consideration , the sentiments , and very words of one of the very first reformers of our church of england ▪ as it remains upon record , being extracted out of the last will and testament of the most reverend father in god , edward sands , late arch-bishop of york , being the general sense of the said reformers , of which you may be more fully satisfied from the words themselves . concerning rights and ceremonies , by political constitutions authorized among us ; as i am , and have been perswaded , that such as are set down by publick authority in this church of england , are no way either ungodly or unlawful , but may with good conscience for order and obedience-sake be used of a good christian ( for the private baptism to be ministred by women , i take neither to be prescribed nor permitted ) ; so have i ever been , and presently am perswaded , that some of them be not so expedient for this church now , but that in the church reformed , and in all this time of the gospel , wherein the seed of the scripture hath so long been sown , they may better be difused by little and little , than more and more urged . howbeit , as i do easily acknowledg our ecclesiastical policy in some points may be better'd , so do i utterly mislike , even in my conscience , all such rude and undigested platforms as have been more lately and boldly , than either learnedly or wisely preferred , tending not to the reformation , but to the destruction of the church of england . the particularities of both sorts referred to the discretion of the godly-wise ; of the latter i only say thus ; that the state of a small private church , and the form of a large christian kingdom , neither would long like , nor can at all brook one and the same ecclesiastical government . thus much i thought good to testifie concerning these ecclesiastical matters , to clear me of all suspicion of double and indirect dealing in the house of god ; wherein , as touching mine office , i have not halted , but walked sincerely according to that skill and ability which i received at gods merciful hand , &c. l. probatum apud london , &c. vicesimo secundo die mensis maii anno domini milissimo quingessimo nonagissimo juramento iohannis theaker notarii publici procuratoris ciciliae relictae & executoris , &c. cui , &c. de bene , &c. jurat . drury , fol. 30. marcus cottle regist. i shall not trouble you with any observations of mine upon this discourse of that reverend person , but submit it to your honours judgment , and take further boldness to subjoyn a remarkable passage of the truly worthy and reverend dean tillotson . viz. it is not for private persons to undertake in matters of publick concernment ; but i think we have no cause to doubt , but the governours of our church ( notwithstanding all the advantages of authority , ( and we think of reason too on our side ) are persons of that piety and prudence , that for peace-sake , and in order to a firm vnion among protestants , they would be content , if that would do it , not to insist upon little things , but to yield them up , whether to the infirmity , or importunity , or perhaps in some very few things , to the plausible exceptions of those who differ from us . oh that it may be according to his word ; and so i shall most cheerfully yield to him , that , on the other side , men ought to bring along with them a peaceable disposition , and a mind ready to comply with the church in which they were born and baptized , in all reasonable and lawful things , and desirous upon any terms that are tolerable to return to the communion of it ; a mind free from passion and prejudice , from peevish exceptions , and groundless and endless scruples : and such i perswade my self all sober and pious dissenters will be found . and now , right honourable , i humbly crave your gracious entertainment of these few lines , sent indeed from a mean and unknown hand , but from an heart full-fraught with loyalty to his majesty , and dutiful respects to your honours , and zeal for the purity , peace and prosperity of the reformed church , and particularly that part of it , which gods right hand hath planted in this famous island . i shall not sin in ceasing to pray , that the good hand of god may be upon you , that he would spirit , direct , assist and succeed you , that you may be the repairers of our breaches , and the restorers of paths to dwell in . the father of mercies , and god of peace grant , that there may be no longer among us the noise of axes and hammers ; no more crumbling into parties and factions , no more divisions nor causes of them ; but that our english ierusalem may be as a bride made ready for her husband . that upon all our assemblies there may be a glory , and upon that glory a defence . finis . a letter to a lord upon his happy conversion from popery to the protestant religion by g. burnett ... burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. 1688 approx. 15 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 3 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a30375 wing b5820 estc r36042 15597639 ocm 15597639 104013 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30375) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 104013) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1587:14) a letter to a lord upon his happy conversion from popery to the protestant religion by g. burnett ... burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. 4 p. s.n.], [s.l. : 1688. caption title. reproduction of original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestant converts -england. protestantism. 2003-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-10 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-12 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2003-12 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a letter to a lord upon his happy conversion from popery to the protestant religion . by g. burnett , d. d. right noble lord , when i consider seriously these words of st. paul ▪ brethren , you see your calling , that not many noble , not many wise , according to the flesh , not many mighty are called : but hath chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise , and weak things to confound the mighty , and base things in the world , and things not accounted of , and things that are not , to bring to nought things that are ▪ when , i say , i consider of these words so often , i admire at that rare blessing of god , which he hath vouchsafed to you a noble and mighty man ; namely , that he should grace you with that true and incomparable nobility , which is attained by true faith in christ jesus , and a holy life . as much greater as this blessing is , so much the more holy and sincere ought your life to be , and so much the more upright are you to walk with your god ; less that your thorns ( that is , riches , pleasures , and honour ) should choke the seed of the gospel which is sown in you . for ▪ this i am sure of , that god hath begun some great work in you , which he will finish to the glory of his own name , and will bring to pass , that as heretofore you had care so to live a noble-man amongst noble-men , that you might observe the decorum , and maintain the dignity of nobility : so hereafter that you may imploy your whole self in this , that you may defend and uphold the honour and dignity of the protestant religion ; and in this life upon the earth to resemble that holy and heavenly life which you shall lead in the world to come . call to mind continually ( my lord ) in all your words and deeds , that we are graced with this honour to be made the sons of god by jesus christ : for that meditation will by the help of the holy ghost , work this care in us , that we never commit any thing unworthy of that holy name of christ , by which we are called . and yet alas , such is our estate , as that if we endeavour to please christ , we are sure to displease men , and must be content to contemn the vain-glory of the world , that we may enjoy heavenly and eternal glory with god ; for it is impossible ( as christ saith ) for him to believe in god which seeks the honour and praise of men . i mean of the men of the world , which as the kingly prophet saith , are lighter and vainer than vanity itself . and therefore their judgment is little worth , and less to be esteemed : but rather the iudgment of god , who seeth not all our actions only , but even our most hidden thoughts and purposes . which being so , were it not folly and madness to displease such a god , to please so fond a world ? it were a shameful thing , if a wife should endeavour to please other men , rather than her husband . how much more then unworthy is it , if our souls should rather aim to please the vain world , than their most holy spouse christ jesus ? if the only son of god was content not only to be reviled , yea and scourged , but even to die upon the cross as a cursed malefactor , and all for us : why should not we much more bear patiently the taunts and mocks , yea even the slanders of gods enemies ? let us therefore arm our selves as it were with a holy pride , and ( in a sort ) scorn and laugh at the mocks of the roman catholicks ; and putting upon us mercy and pity as the feeling members of christ , let us bewail so great blindness in them , and let us intreat the lord for them , to pull them out of that palpable darkness into his true and marvellous light , lest satan bind them to himself in his everlasting apprentiship ▪ and so being his bond-slaves , and hired sworn servants of his black-guard , do send them out to prosecute jesus christ in his members . which when they have done all they can , and all that the devil their master can teach them , though the devil himself should burst with malice , and they for anger grind their teeth ; yet shall it all tend to the magnifying of gods glory which they labour to obscure , and to the furtherance of their salvation , whom they so disdained : yea , to the increase of their glory in a better world , whom in this world they thought worthy of nothing but disgrace : and surely ( my most honorable lord ) he that is possessed with the certainty of this faith , will without doubt make open war with the corrupt affections of his own nature , and with all the world , yea even with the devil himself ; and will not doubt but in time to overcome them all . therefore let us humble our selves to our god and father everlasting , that he would increase that faith in us , and bring forth in us those most blessed and sweet fruits of faith in our hearts and lives , which he useth to work in them whom he hath elected ; that so our faith may appear not a fained , but a true faith ; not a dead , but a living faith ; not a humane , but a divine work in us ; that so it may be to us an infallible pledg of our salvation to come . let us labour to shew our selves the legitimate and undoubted children of god in seeking above all things , that his most holy name may be sanctified in our selves and others ; and in imitating his admirable love and gentleness , which makes his sun to shine on good and bad , let us worship his heavenly majesty in spirit and truth ; and let us yield up the temple of our hearts to christ jesus as an acceptable sacrifice unto him ; yea , let us shew our selves members of the heavenly high priest christ jesus , in sacrificing to god our bodies , and in crucifying the flesh with the affection and lusts thereof ; that sin being dead , god may create in us a spiritual life , whereby christ jesus may live in us . let us dye to sin , and dye to our selves , and to the world , that we may live blessedly to god and christ jesus ; yea let us acknowledg and shew by our lives that we were once dead , but now are raised to the life of grace , by the power of christ jesus . let our conversation be heavenly , though we live on the earth ; let us begin that life here , which we hope to lead in heaven ; let the image of god shine bright in us ; let us disgrace and wear out the old image of sin and satan ▪ and labour to renew the image of christ jesus , that all that see us may acknowledg gods image in us . which holy image of grace , as it is beautiful and glorious , in all gods saints , so in you ( my good lord ) it shall be so much more glorious , in as much as you go before others in birth , nobility , honour , and high place . o what a pleasant sight is it to all true christian men , yea to the angels ; yea how acceptable to the lord himself , to behold a man of your place and estate so far to forget the world and deny himself ; so deeply to consider the frailty of his own nature , and the vanity of all temporal things , as to say with 〈…〉 a worm and no man ; and to cry out with david , turn thy face to me , and have mercy upon me , for i am desolate and poor : o happy and true rich man , which hath attained to this spiritual and heavenly poverty , and can give a farewel to himself and the world , and all things that he hath for christs sake ; and can freely renounce and forsake carnal reason , human learning , company , and counsel of friends , wealths , honors , lordships , pleasures of all sorts , delight of the court , high places and preferments , dignity , and offices ; yea , favor of princes ; yea , his own self ! how welcom shall he be to christ , which can deny all those for christs sake ? such a one may go for a fool in the world , but he shall be of the almighty's counsel ; such a man knoweth that felicity consists not in any thing that this world can afford , and therefore in the midst of all his wealth and abundance , he crieth out to god as tho he had nothing , even out of the feeling of his heart , give us this day our daily bread. such a man preferreth the rebuke of christ , before the honour of the world and the afflictions of christs religion , before the pleasures of the world : and because he despised all things in respect of christ and his righteousness , and is possessed and grounded with god's spirit , therefore he sings with true joy of heart with the kingly prophet ; the lord is my shepherd , therefore i can want nothing , neither will i feel hunger , or any outward thing ; he feeds me in green pasture , and leads me forth beside the water of comfort . this man distrusts himself and all the creatures in the world , that he may trust and cleave only unto god ; neither aims he at any pleasure , any wisdom , any honour , any riches , any credit or estimation , but such as comes from god himself ; and therefore professeth with the same prophet : i have none in heaven but thee alone , and none in the earth do i desire but thee , my flesh consumeth with longing after thee , and thou lord art my heritage and portion for ever . he that spake thus was a wealthy and mighty king , yet suffered he not the eyes of his mind to be blinded or dazled with the glittering glory of riches , pleasures , or honor , or ought else that a kingdom could give ; for he knew well that they all came of god , and were held under god , and must all be used to his glory , and that he that gave them hath far better things to give his children . and therefore that king and prophet makes his heavenly proclamation before all his people , blessed art thou , o lord god our father , for ever and ever : thine o lord is greatness , and power , and glory , and victory : all that is in heaven and earth is thine , thine is the kingdom , lord , and thou excellest as head over all : riches and honour come of thee , and thou art lord of all : in thy hands is power , strength , and honour , and dignity , and kingdoms are in thy disposition : therefore we give thee thanks , o god , and we extol thy great and glorious name . but who am i , and what is my people , that we should promise such things to thee ? for we are strangers and sojourners as all our fathers were ; our days are like a shadow upon the earth , and here is no abiding . see how david cannot content himself in abasing himself , and extolling the lord ; and in how many words his affections utter themselves . this was david's meditation , and let this be your looking-glass ; in this looking-glass look once a day , and pray daily , that god would still open your eyes to behold your own vileness , and his incomprehensible power and love to you , that with king david you may humble your self under the mighty hand of his majesty , and acknowledge all power and glory to belong to god alone , that so you may be made partakers of those heavenly graces which god bestowed , not on the proud and lofty , but on the humble and 〈◊〉 . remember that ordinance of the eternal god that saith ▪ let not the wise man glory in his wisdom , nor the strong man in his strength ▪ or the rich man in his riches , but let him that glorieth glory in this , in that he understandeth and knoweth me , that i am the lord which do mercy and justice on earth ; for these things please me , saith the lord. therefore ( my good lord ) if you list to boast , boast not as the world doth , that you are rich , or that you are of noble birth , or that you are heir apparent of a rich marquesdom , or that you have married so noble a woman ; leave this kind of boasting to them , who have their minds glewed to the world , and therefore have no better things to boast on ; whose portion being here in this life , they can look for nothing in heaven . but rather rejoyce you are entred into the kingdom of grace ; glory in this , that the king of kings hath had mercy on you , and hath drawn you out of the misty darkness of the errors of the romish religion , hath given you to feel his endless love and mercy in christ , hath made you of a child of wrath , his own son ; of a servant to sin and the devil , an heir of heaven ; and of a bondslave to hell , a free denison of the heavenly jerusalem ; and glory in this , that even christ jesus himself is given you , and made your own , and with him all things else . so that as paul saith , all are yours , whether the world , or life , or death , things present or things to come , all are yours in and by christ , who is the only felicity of our souls : and therefore whosoever have him , have with him all things else . this is the true glory , and the sound boasting of christianity ; for hereby is god's mercy extolled , and mans pride troddon under foot , by which a man trusting too much to himself , rebelleth against god ▪ this glorious boasting makes us humble even in our highest honours , and modest and meek in prosperity , patient and quiet in adversity ; in troubles strong and courageous , gentle towards all men , joyful in hope , fervent in prayer , full of the love of god , but empty of all love of our selves , or ought in the world ▪ yea , it makes us christs true beadsmen , and his sworn servants , and make us yield up our selves wholly to imitate and follow christ , and to esteem all things else as frail and vain , yea dung and dross that we may win christ. right honourable and my good lord , you see that i am so willingly employed in this service of writing to your honour , and in conferring with you of heavenly matters , that i have forgot my self , or rather your honor , in being so tedious , which in the beginning i purposed not . i am privy to my self of my own ignorance , and guilty of my own insufficiency , as being sitter to be a scholar than a teacher ; and to hear and learn my self , rather than to teach others ; and therefore i crave pardon of your honor : farewel . the most reverend e. s. desireth in his heart he had occasion to testifie indeed , that true good will which in his soul he bears you : in the mean time he salutes you , and so doth the illustrious prince , and all other the honourable personages which are with me ; all which rejoyce for this good work of god in you , and in all kindness do kiss your hands ; and they do earnestly intreat the lord for you , that he that hath begun so great a work in you ▪ would accomplish the same to the end ; and the richer you are in temporal goods , in lands , and lordships , that he would make you so much the more poor in spirit ▪ that so your spiritual poverty may do that which your worldly riches and honors cannot ; namely , bring you at last to eternal and never-fading riches of the world to come : amen . your honours most humble and obedient servant , g. b. printed in the year 1688. the ladder of hell, or, the protestants libertine doctrine being the broad way which leadeth the followers of it to their eternall ruine and destruction in hell / set foorth in prose and verse. covbridge, cranmer. 1618 approx. 20 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a19456 stc 5879.5 estc s1685 21469809 ocm 21469809 24025 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a19456) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 24025) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1708:7) the ladder of hell, or, the protestants libertine doctrine being the broad way which leadeth the followers of it to their eternall ruine and destruction in hell / set foorth in prose and verse. covbridge, cranmer. [16] p. birchley hall press?, [lancashire? : ca. 1618] dedication signed: cranmer covbridge. imprint suggested by stc (2nd ed.). marginal notes. signatures: a⁸. reproduction of original in the upshaw college (durham, eng.). library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism -controversial literature. conscience -early works to 1800. 2006-08 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-09 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-10 jason colman sampled and proofread 2006-10 jason colman text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the ladder of hell . or the protestants libertine doctrine , being the broad way which leadeth the followers of it to their eternall ruine and destruction in hell. set foorth in prose and verse . isai . 5. 20. woe vnto you who call euill good , and good euill ; putting darknesse light , and light darknesse . permissu superiorum . cranmer covbridge , minister of the word in cvmberland , to the zealous protestants his brethren , concerning the printing , title , and vse of this admirable ladder , worthily called the ladder of hell. considering that this ladder was first framed and entituled the ladder of hell , by a papist , to the great disgrace ( as hee conceined ) of our protestant religion ; i imagine that some of you ( dearely beloued brethren ) will wish that it had been quite suppressed , and neuer seene light : yet , ( in regard it containeth nothing but a collection of certaine sentences set downe in the publike bookes of twelue principall pillars of our church ) i thought it not amisse to set it forth , just as i found it , vnder your protection ; knowing well , that euery zealous protestant can with the dexteritie of his reformed spirit turne all , though neuer so plainly seeming ill , to at least a seeming good sense : as for example , wheras the papist called this collection of sentences , the ladder of hell because in his judgement the beleefe and , practise of it leadeth a soule directly to hell . yet one of our new learning ( considering that ladders are made rather to helpe men vpward then downeward ) wil say it may be called the ladder of hell , because the beleefe and practise of it will lift soules out of hell . and with reason may this be said , supposing one ground of our new doctrine be true , to wit , that hell is ( no such locall place in which are fire and other torments , as is said by the ancient fathers , and the scriptures themselues , to be prepared for the diuels and other damned creatures , but ) only a certaine terror and horror of an afflicted conscience , the which may in some measure be felt euen in this world , and is ordinarily felt after sin commited euen by protestants , vntill by beleeuing firmely , and practising freely the points of doctrine contained in this ladder , they come by degrees to contemne all things , to wit , all lawes of god and man : and all scruple of minde and remorse of conscience , and all feare of death , iudgement , and hell , which estate of mind , it is like diuers zealous protestants haue alreadie attained vnto , esteeming themselues hereby to be not onely freed from hell , but to haue attained a kind of heauen in earth : marry the doubt is , whether this their heauē wil last alwayes , as true heauen ought to doe , or whether this hastie freeing thēselues frō the hell of care , feare , remorse & sorrow in this life , will not plung them into a most bitter feeling of remorse in the houre of death , and into intollerable torments of the eternall hell in the next life . the which doubt being in the judgement of some , only a papisticall scruple , i will leaue to bee discussed at better leasure : it shall suffice my present purpose onely to declare the manifold vses , which for the present time may be made of this excellent ladder , both by papists and protestants . first , i finde that the papists meane to make this short ladder serue for an answer of many long discourses made by protestant ministers in bookes or sermons , in which they obiect the ill liues of some papists ; the which obiections the papists doe retort more strongly against vs protestants , who cannot deny , but that since the light of the new gospell was by luther brought into the world , men are ( as luther himselfe coufessed ) more reuengeful , more conetous , more vnmercifull , more vnmodest and vnruly , and much worse then they were in papistry ; the reason whereof ( say the papists ) is for that the very doctrine it selfe of the new gospellers , doth not onely not afford such effectuall restraints and remedies against sinne , as is in the ancient catholike religion , but also hath ( as appeareth by the steps of this ladder ) diuers expresse principles , which doe plainly open the gappe to all licentious libertie of lewde life , far more then can bee imagined to bee done by any principles of the papists doctrine . whereupon the papists conclude that the protestant religion , whose doctrine is so vnholy , cannot be a holy religion inspired by the holy ghost , but suggested ( as a luther the first author confesseth some part of it ( to wit , the deniall of the sacrifice of the masse ) to haue beene suggested to him ) by satan himselfe , the enemy of all true religion and holinesse . the zealous protestant not much regarding this , or whatsoeuer other arguments made by papists , find out other vses of this ladder : as for example . first , it teacheth euery one of them to exercise heroicall acts of their b new-found iustifying faith , by which they beleeue that they are just , holy , and of the number of the predestinate , not onely by hauing a good hope , ( as the poore papists haue ) when they see or feele some of those things in themselues , which by the holy scriptures they learne to be signes of true iustice ( to wit , repentance of sins past , carefulnesse to auoid sinne in time to come , diligence in doing good workes ; &c. ) but also by infallible and absolute beleefe , as of a chiefe article of their christian faith , euen at such times as they neither see , nor feele any such signes , yea euē whē they euidently see in themselues contrary signes , & namely , euen when they actually do those works of the flesh , of which saint . paul pronounceth , that they who doe such things , shall not obtaine the kingdome of god. zealous protestants , i say , maugre this threat of s. paul , are taught by this ladder to beleeue boldly that they are saints , and cannot misse saluation , notwithstanding they commit neuer so many most horrible sins . secondly , this ladder teacheth them to cast away all feare of god , not onely in respect of his iustice , in inflicting present or future paines for sinne ( which is called seruile feare ) but also of separation from god , which feare cannot stand with our new iustifying faith , in regard we must hold it absolutely impossible that we can bee separated from god , and consequently wee must cast away this fear , although neuer so much commended in scripture . thirdly , by this admirable ladder , zealous protestants may be deliuered from all inward remorse of conscience , & may come to that highest perfection of our new gospell , which consisteth in a neglect of al conscience , the which cannot be attained on a sudden , but must be gained ( as luther himselfe gained it ) by entering into a terrible conflict , and fighting against ones owne conscience ; the difficulty of which combate ariseth out of three heads . the first is the letter of the written word , which seemeth euery where to crosse thi● liberty of conscience , and to forbid the doing of any thing against conscience . but our new spirituall man , who judgeth all things , will oppose against this killing letter of scripture , which restraineth our freedome , the quickening spirit of this ladder , which alloweth liberty of neglecting conscience . the second is an old tradition of the papists in fauour of conscience , which hath by long custome taken a deepe roote in vs. but the zealous protestant , who accounteth papistry a great blindnesse , will easily defie this among other papisticall traditions . the third is an inueterate opinion and feeling of conscience engrauen in the very nature and flesh of mans heart . but we new spirited men do know old nature to be corrupted , and that the flesh profiteth nothing . thus my deare brethrē , you may see what vses may be made of this admirable ladder . it remaineth that in a word i also declare , why i make choice to dedicate it vnto you , and to put it in print vnder your protection . the reason is , because the authors out of whom these sentences were collected , were all zealous protestants . secondly , because none now adaies will ( as i suppose ) stedfastl● beleeue & endeuor to practise according 〈◊〉 these points , but only zealous prote●●a●s . thirdly , beause none but such zealous protestāts , who frame their liues according to this ladder , can well vnderstand how it is possible that this ladder can be good , or how it should deliuer one out of hell , and cōsequently , why it should be stiled in that sense , in which i stile it , the ladder of hell. it may be the papist , which first framed this ladder , wil play vpon vs with his text , woe vnto you that call euil good , and good euill , isa . 5. 20. but wee care not for his text , for we can cry as lowd , and say as fast , wo vnto him , and although the world will , witnesse that he hath better reason to vse this text against vs , then we against him : yet it sufficeth that our * new spirit doth beare witnes to our nullity of cōscience that we say true . if the papist take aduātage at my intitling my self minist . of the word in comberland , saying that we ministers comber the land with these libertine doctrines . i can reply & tell him , that it is he & his seminaries , who comber our consciences with their contrary doctrines , & with putting scruples into our heads , by adding to this ladder certain sentences , threatning hell and damnation to sinners : for although we professe by our justifying faith , that we are sure to be saued , and that we neede not feare to be damned : yet i confesse , when i seriously examine my guilty conscience , and by searching , find the holy scriptures themselues to pronounce plainly eternall damnation to all ill liuers . i cannot choose but be bodily afraid lest the papist say true , when he telleth vs that the libertine doctrine taught by our new gospellers , & set downe in this ladder , wil most certainly lead the followers of it to their eternall ruine and destruction in hell ; from which i beseech the lord to deliuer vs all . amen your deuoted seruant in the lord , cranmer covbridge . the protestants ladder of libertie in prose . easie it is hell not to misse . 1 god is the author and enforcing cause of all finne . 2 the ten commandements are impossible to be kept . 3 the ten commandements belong not to christains . 4 christ hath fulfilled the law for vs. 5 we need take no paines for eternall life : 6 dauid committing murder and adulterie , did not lose the holy ghost . 7 whosoeuer beleeues , god workes for him . 8 sinnes are not hurtfull to him that beleeues . 9 we haue no freewill at all , for it is titulus finere . 10 good works are not necessary to saluation . 11 good workes are hurtfull to saluation . 12 to teach good workes , is the doctrine of diuels . 1● let vs take heed of sinnes , yea let vs take heed of good workes . 14 all our best workes are mortall sins , and meere iniquitie . 15 we need not greeue or doe any satisfaction for our sinnes . 16 a thousand fornications and murders a day , cannot withdraw vs from christ . 17 if thy wife will not come , let thy maid come . 18 a woman is as necessary as meat and drinke . 19 we may haue as many wiues as we list together . 20 to fast and chastise our bodies , is sanctitie for hogges and dogges . 21 purgatory is a delusion of the diuell . 22 the diuels are but in hell . 23 there is no sinne but infidelitie , no iustice but faith. 24 no sins are imputed to the faithfull . 25 sinnes of the faithfull past and future , are pardoned as soone as committed . 26 the more wicked thou art , the more neere to receiue grace . 27 wee haue as much right to heauen , as christ himselfe . 28 and wee are all saints , and as holy as the apostles were . 29 wee are certaine of our saluation . 30 we cannot fall from ours , vnlesse christ fall from his . a larger passage no man treads then that which to perdition leads . the protestants ladder of libertie , in verse . the gates are ●ide and open bide . god is of all our sinnes the enforcing cause , it is impossible to keepe his lawes , the tables two no rules for christians bee , christ hath fulfill'd the law , and left vs free . we need no paines take for eternall life , dauid vrias kill'd , defilde his wife , yet did not thereby lose the holy ghost . god for beleeuers worke , they ( truely ) boast ▪ to the beleeuer , no sinnes hurtfull are : we haue no freewill , t is a title bare : there 's no necessitie of our good workes , in them much hinderance to saluation lurkes . the teaching of good workes is diuels lore ; shunne sin , but for good works eschew them more ▪ all our best workes are sinnes and errors soule ; for sinne neer satisfie , nor grieue thy soule , a thousand fornications on a day ; as oft to kill , pulls not from christ away . if thy wife will not , let thy mayde supply , as meate and drinke , a woman's necessary ▪ wiues thou mayest take at once al that thou please ▪ to tame the flesh by fasts , or want of ease , is sanctitie for hogges and dogges to vse , with purgatorie the fiend doth fooles abuse . nor are those damn'd rebellious sprites in hell , no sinne , but want of faith , no doing well , but to beleeue . no sinnes the faithfull blot committed , straight they are pardon'd and forgot . the most defil'd , the readiest is for grace ; as christ , so wee , haue right to see gods face . the apostles equalls we are all , and saints , our certaintie of saluation neuer faints , what euer soyleth ours , christs glory taints ▪ they spend their dayes in faring well , and in a tri●e descend to hell . the bookes of protestants from whence the steppes of the ▪ ladder are gathered . 1 caluin . lib. 1. iustitut . cap. 18. sect . 3. 4. castalio is witnes , l. de praed . con . caluin . ecker . in fascic . contr . quaest . 2. cap. 7. paraeus apud beca in 1. par . c. 16. p. 182. litt. bern. dat . anno. 1555. 2 caluin . lib. 2. instit . cap. 7. sect . 5. 3 luther . serm. de mois . & in coloq ●●ns . germ. fol. 152. 153. melane . in loc. com. edit . 2. pag. 76. eberus salmath fecicles cruciger colloq . altemb . anno 1568. 4 willet in sinop . papis . pag. 564. 5 hoffman . de poenit. 6 fulke in the tower disput . 7 hoffman . de poenit. 8 whitaker de ecclesia . pag. 301. 9 luther art. 36. 10 illiricus in pref. ad rom. 11 amsdorfius quod bona opera sint perniciosa ad salut . 12 luther de votis monast . 13 luther in piscatura petri. 14 caluin lib. 3. cap. 12. sect . 4. 15 caluin lib. 3. cap. 4. sect . 38. 16 luther tom. 1. epist . fol. 334. 17 luther ser. de matrimon . 18 luther ibidem . 19 luther ibidem . 20 luther tom. 5. ger. fol. 324. 21 luther epist . ad wald. de eucha . 22 luther ad cap. 9. ionae . 23 luther in 5. par . post . german . fol. 140. and tindall alledged by fox , actes pag. 1137. 24 caluin lib. 3. instit . cap. 4. sect . 28. 25 wotton in his answ . to the popish art. pag. 41. 26 luther ser. de pisc . petri. 27 zwinglius tom. 1. fol. 288. 28 luther ser. de cruce . 29 disput . ratisb . pag. 463. 30 swinglius tom. 1 fol. 268. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a19456-e130 caluin . in c. 30. isa . hermonia ad cap. 3. mat. v. 12. i. instit . c. 25. n. 12. luther in postilla supra euangel . dom . 1. aduentus . a luth. de abroganda missa priuata , editione prima . b i call it new foūd , because i finde not in scripture or in the ancient fathers that a man is made iust by confidently beleeuing that hee is iust , but rather by humbly acknowledging ones selfe to be a sinner , as appeareth in the parable of the pharisee and the publican . luke 18. gal ▪ 5. * which whether it bee white or blacke , zuinglius himselfe could not tell . notes for div a19456-e550 caluin . caluin . luther . willet . hofman . fulke . hofman . whittaker . luther . illiricus . a●●●ders . luther . luther . caluin . luther . luther . luther . luther . luther . luther . luther . luther . tindall . caluin . wotton . luther . zuinglius . luther . caluin . zuinglius . the protestants' doom in popish times 1689 approx. 20 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 3 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a56099 wing p3849 estc r22811 12364887 ocm 12364887 60387 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a56099) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 60387) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 875:40) the protestants' doom in popish times bull, george, 1634-1710. 4 p. s.n., [london? : 1689] reproduction of original in huntington library. caption title. ascribed to the right reverend dr. bull. cf. william oldys, editor of the harleian miscellany. p. 28. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism. great britain -history -1660-1714. 2003-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-06 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-02 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2005-02 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the protestant's doom in popish times . a prince putting himself , and his dominions under the authority of the pope , and admitting ( as he must unavoidably ) the laws and decrees of the romish church , all his protestant subjects being , by the judgment and sentence of that church , hereticks , (a) do forthwith lie under the penalty which those laws and constitutions will have infl●cted upon hereticks ; heresie (b) being the highest degree of high-treas●n ; called therefore by them , laese crimen maj●statis divinae : so the english protestant must be a trayt●r , and the worst of traytors , and exposed to the penalties of high treason . the laws and decrees of the romish church against hereticks . he●esie (c) is denounced infamous , and the heretick must be dealt with as such ; which is many penalties in one . first ▪ whereby they are deprived of all nobility , ju●isdiction and dignity , and debarred from all offices , and publick councils , parliaments as others ; being made uncapable of choosing , and being chosen : so that it reacheth all sorts (d) of clergy , layety , noble and igno●le : which is extended to their children a●so . for , they say , the issue of traytors , civil and spiritual ▪ lose their nobility . and all that owe a●y duty to such infamous persons , are discharged and exempted there from ; as subjects (e) from their prince , servants (f) from their masters , children (g) from their parents ; whom they also may lawfully kill . whereby we may see a little , to what condition the admission of the papal authority wo●ld reduce us , expelling both nature and humanity , and making the dearest relatives unnatural and barbaro●s to one another : it would leave no protestant either dignity or authority ▪ either ●ety or liberty ; nobles are sentenced to peasants , and peasants to slaves . secondly , another penalty , to which hereticks are condemned by their laws , is confiscation of goods and estate ; and this they incurr i●s● jure , & ipso facto ; that is , immediately as soon as they shew themselves hereticks , before any legal sentence have passed : for which there is an express decree in the canon-law ; (h) bona haeretico●um ipso jure d●scernemus confis●ata ; we decree the goods of hereticks to be confi●cate by sentence of law. the effects of this confiscation , wherein they all agree , makes the severity of the law apparent , ●iz . first , all the profits made of the estate from the first day of their guilt , is to be (i) refunded . secondly , all alienations (k) by gif● , sale , or otherwise , before sentence , are null and void ; and all contracts for that purpose , (l) rescinded . thirdly , children , heirs of hereticks , are deprived of their portions ; yea , though they be papists . whereby it appears , that as soon as the papacy is admitted , all title and property is lost and extinct among us : and therefore we must not think that pope acted extravagantly , who declared , that all his maj●sty's territories were his own , as forfeited to the h●ly see for the heresie of prince and people . not only abby-lands lands are in danger , who ever possess them ; but all estates are forfeited to his exchequer , and legally confiscated : all is his own , which protestants , in these three nations , have or ever had , if he can but meet with a prince so wise , as to help him to catch it ; whose process follows them beyond their grave , and ruins their children , and children's children after them . and when they have stript the heretick of his all , they provide that no other ▪ shall relieve him ; viz. that none shall receive him into their ho●ses , nor afford him any help , nor shew him any favour , nor give him any counsel . we are here in england zealous for property ; an● all the reason in the world we should so be : but we must bid adieu to this , when we once come under the popes authority ; for as soon as this is admitted . all the protestants in these nations are b●ggers by law ▪ viz. by the laws of that church ; which will then be ours , divesting us of all property and ti●●e to what ever ▪ we count our own . thirdly , another p●n●lty which their law inflicts on h●●eticks , is death , (m) which is the sentence of the canon-law ; and which i● so absolute , that no secular judge can remit ▪ and which is th● judgm●●● of all the doctors . ita docent omnes d●ctores : and from which penaltie , neither emperors no● kings themselves are to be freed or exempt . and the death they i●fl●ct is burning alive : n● death m●re tolerable . ●r of less e●q●●si●e torture , will sati●fie the mercy of that church . the canon saith thus ; decernimus ut vivi in conspectu hominum combu●antur ; we decree , that they shall be burnt alive , in the sight of the world. so our last popish successor , queen ma●y , pract●sed upon near three hundred persons , without regard either to age , sex , or qual●ty : the scripture they urge for it , is job . 15 6. (n) if any one abide not in me , men gather them , and cast them into the fire , and they are burnt . so that as soon as the papal authority is admitted among us , all the protestants in th●se nations are dead men in law ; being under a law , that hath sentence● us to be burnt alive ; and under a power that hath declared it necessary , that no one of u● escape with life . fourthly , where legal penalties cannot take place , b● reason of opposite strength , they hold war necessary , and lawful to chastise hereticks . for which we might give you divers authorities ; (o) but let cardinal allen , our country man su●●●e ; who asserts it is not only lawful , but necessary : his words are these : it is clear ( saith he ) what people 〈◊〉 persons soever be declared to be opposite to god's church , with what obligation so●ver ▪ either of kindred , friendship , loyalty , or subj●ction , i be bound unto them ; i may , or rather must ▪ take up arms against them : and then must we tak● them f●r hereticks , when our lawful popes ad●udge them so to be . and which ( saith car●inal pool ) is war more holy than that against ●he turks . fifthly , to destroy them by massacre● , is sometim● hel● more adviceable ▪ than to run the hazard of war ; and which ( they s●● ) is both lawful and ●eritorious , for the rooting our a pestilent heresi● ●n● the promoting the roman inte●est . this ●●ta ●oo● the ●●ish massacre , that inhumane bloody butchery ▪ not so m●ch from the savageness and cruelty of ●hei● n●tures , as the doctrines and principles which dire●●ed ▪ and encouraged ●t : as also th●t of paris ; than which nothing w●s more grateful and acceptable to their p●●es , as their (p) bulls make ma●ifest , and the picturing● it in the popes chamber : and for which , 〈◊〉 a most glorious action , triumphs were made , and publick tha●k●givings were returned to god. so in savoy , and elsewhere , both in former and later times . and this was that which the late conspirators aimed at so fully , intending a massacre those that escaped a massac●e , ●uch (q) dugdale must be cut off by the army . and (r) coleman tells the int●rnuncio in his letter ; that their design prospered so well , that he doubted not in a little ●ime , their business would be managed to the utter ruin of the p●otestant p●rty : the effecting whereof was so desirable and meritorious , what if he had a sea of blood , and an hundred lives , he would lose them all to carry on the design . and if to eff●ct this. i● were necessary to destr●y an hund●ed heretical kings , he would do it . (s) singl●ton the priest affirmed , tha● he would make no more to stab forty parliament-men , than to eat his dinner gerard and kelley , to encourage prance to kill sir e. b. g. told him , it was no murder , no sin , and that to kill twenty of them was nothing in that case ; which was both a charitable and meritorious act. and (t) grant , one of the massa●ri●g gun-powder tray●o●s said , up●n his execu●ion● to one that urged him to repent of that wicked enterprize ; that ●e was so far from counting i● a sin , that on the ●ontrary , he was confident that tha● noble design had so muc● of merit in i● , as would be abundantly enough to make satisfaction for all the sins of his whole life . sir everard d●gby speaking to the sure purpose also . the provincial , garnet ▪ did teach the conspirato●s the same catholick doctrine ; viz that the king , nobility , clergy , and whole communalty of the realm of england ( p●p●sts exc●pted ) were hereticks ; and , that all hereticks were accu●sed and ex●ommunicated : and ▪ that no heretick could be a king : but that it was lawful and m●ri●orious to k●ll him ▪ and all other hereticks within thi realm of england , for the advancement and ●nlargement of the au●h●rity an● jurisdiction of the pope ▪ and for t●● restoring of the romish relig●on . t●is was that garnet whom the p●pists here honoured as a pope , and kissed his feet , and reverenced his iudgment as an oracle ; and since his death given him the honor of saintship and martyrdom (u) dugdale des●sed , that after they had dispattched the king , a massacre was to follow . but surely , it m●y be supposed , that the temper of such a prince , or his interest , would oblige him to forbid or restrain such violent executions in england : i , but what if his temper be to comply with such courses ? or if his temper be better ? w●at if it be over ru●d ? what if he be perswade● as ot●er catholicks are , that ●e must in conscience proceed thus ? what if he cannot do otherwise , without hazard of his crown and life ? for he is not to hold the reins of government alone , he will not be allowed to be much more than the po●es pos●●lion ; and must look to be ●nmounted , if he act nor according to order . the law (x) tells us , that it is ●o● in th● power of any civil magistrate , ●●r 〈◊〉 penalty , or abate the rigour of the law. nay , if the prince should plight has faith by o●th , that he would not suffer their bloody laws to be executed upon his dissenting sbjects , this would signifie not●ing : for they would soon tell him , that (y) contracts made against the canon-law are invalid , though confirmed by oath ; and , that he is not bound to stand to his promi●e , tho' he had sworn to it : and , that faith is no mo●e to be kept with hereticks , than the council of constance would have it . so th●● p●otestants are to be burnt , as jo. huss , and jerom ●f prague were by that council , though the emperor had given them his safe conduct in that solemn manner , which could secure them only ( as they said ) from the civil , but not church-process , which was the greatest . for 't is their general rule , that faith is either not to be given or not kept with h●reticks . therefore saith simanca , that faith ingaged to hereticks , tho confirmed by oath , is in no wise to be performed : for saith he , if faith is not to be kept with tyrants and pyrates , and others who kill the body , much less with hereticks who kill the souls ; and that the o●th in savour of them , is but vniculum iniquita●is . a bond of iniquity . t●ough p●pish princes the better to promote their interests , and to insnare their protestant subjects , to get advantage upon them , to their ruin , have made large promises , and plight●d their faiths to them , when they did not intend to keep it . as th● emperor to john huss and jerom ; charles the ninth of france to his protestant subjects before the massacre ; the duke of savoy to his protestant subjects , before their designed ruin ; and qu. mary , before her burning of them . but if there were neither law nor conscience to hinder , yet in point of interest he must not shew f●●our to hereticks , without app●rent hazard , both (z) of crown and life , for he forfeits both if he doth . the pope every year doth not only curse hereticks , but every favourer of them , from which none but himself can ab●olve . (a) becanus very elegantly tells us , if a prince be a dull cur , and fly not upon hereticks , he is to be beaten out , and a kee●er d●g must be got in his stead . henry the third , and henry the 4th , were both assassinated upon this account , and because they were suspected to favour hereticks . and are we not told by the discoverers (b) of the popish plot , that after they had dispatch'd the king , they would depose his brother also , that was to succeed him , if he did not answer their expectations , for rooting out the protestant religion . but may not parliaments secure us by laws and provisions restraining the power which endan●er vs ? not possible , if once they secure and settle the throne for popery : for , first , they can avoid parliaments as long as they please , and a government that is more arbitrary and v●olent , is more agreeable to their designs and principles : it being apparent , that the english papist have lost the spirit of their ancestors , who so well asserted the english liberties , being so generally now six'd for the popes universal monarchy , sacrificing all to that roman moloch ; being much more his subje●ts than the kings : and though natives by birth , yet are foreigners as to government , principle , interest , affection and design ; and therefore no friends to parliaments , as our experience hath tol● us . but secondly , if their necessity should require a parliament , ther● is no question but they may get such a one as will serve their turns . for so have every of our f●rmer princes in all the changes of religion , that have been amongst us : as henry the viii . when he was both for and against popery , edward the vi. when he was wholly protestant , qu. mary , when she was for burning alive , and qu. elizabeth when she ran so counter to her sister . and the reason is clear that he who has the making of the publick officers and the keys of preferment and profit , influenceth and swayeth elections and votes as he pleaseth . and by how much the throne comes to be fix'd in popery , the protestants must expect to be excluded from both houses , as they have excluded the papists : for as hereticks and traytors , they , as ignominous persons , &c. you have heard , forfeit all right either to choose , or be chosen in any publick council : and then all laws , which have been made for the protestants , and against the popish religion , will be null and void , as being enacted by an incompetent authority , as being the acts of hereticks , kings , lords and commons , who had forfeited all their rights and privileges . but thirdly , suppose our laws were valid , as enacted by competent authority , and such good and wholsom provisions , as were those statutes made by our popish ancesto●s , in those statutes of proviso●s in enward the i. and edward the iii time ; and that of p●aemunire in richard the ii. and henry the iv. for relief against papal in roachments & oppressions : yet being against the laws & canons of holy church ; the sovereign authority , they will be all superseded : for so they determine , that when the canon and the civil laws cl●sh , one requiring what the other allows not , the church-law must have the observance an● that of the state neglected : and constitution● ( they say ) made against the canon● & decrees of the roman b●shops are of no moment : their best authors are possitive in ●t . and o●r own experience & histories ●estifie the truth thereof : for how were those good laws before-mention'd , defeated by the popes authority , so that there was no effectual execution thereof till henry the viii . time , as dr. burnet (c) tells us ? and how have the good laws , to suppress and prevent popery , been very mach obstructed in their exe●ution , by popish i●fluence ? the end . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a56099-e10 protestants are her●ticks . (a) distinct. 19. cap. a caus. 25 q. 1. cap. 11. (b) cap. vegent . de hereticis . (c) cap. infam . 6. q. 1. p 297. 1. forfeit dignity and office (d) suar. de fide. disp . 12. §. 9. n. 5. l. 2. c. 29. (e) cap. de haer. (f) aazov . tom. 1. l. 8. c. 12. q 7. (g) cap. 2. sect. fin . de haer. in 6. 2. goods and estate . (h) cap. cum secundum legis de haer. inno. iii. cap. de vergentis . (i) v●sq in suar. disp . 22. s. 4 ● . ●● . (k) s. 1 〈◊〉 . (l) cap. vergent . de haer. 3. lives . (m) cap ad abolendum de haer. suar. dis. 23. bul. urb. 4 ▪ & inno. 4. by b●rning . (n) jac de ●ra decis . l. 2. c. 9. n 2. 4. d●stroy'd by war. (o) bonacina diana . castro m●●anus ▪ &c. car. allen. ad mon. to nobl. & peop. p. 41. 5. by m●ssacre . (p) briefs of p g. 13. & cl●m . 8. (q) 5 j●● . tryal ▪ p. 28. (r) col. lr. to the internuncio . (s) prance 's nar. p. 4. (t) caus● ep. p. 189 (u) ● jes. tryal p. 25. 1. the popish prince cannot , help , if he would . oaths and promises insignificant . (x) ca●● offic●● . (y) bonncina de prim . prac . disp. 3. q ▪ 2. (z) person 's philop . p. 109. (a) beca● . cont. aug. ● . 131 , 132. in fowlis . p. 60. (b) ores's n●r. p 4. n. 5 &c. 2 parliaments cannot prevent ruin to protestants . 1. they may be avoided . 2. may be made to serve a popish , not a protestant interest . 3. good laws insignificant . (c) hist. ref p. 110. mr. chillingworth's judgment of the religion of protestants of scripture the only rule, of differences among protestants, of using force in matters of religion &c. : with a preface to the reader giving the reason of publishing these passages. religion of protestants a safe way to salvation. selections chillingworth, william, 1602-1644. 1680 approx. 32 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 6 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-01 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a32852 wing c3886 estc r29216 10861593 ocm 10861593 46138 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a32852) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 46138) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1419:36) mr. chillingworth's judgment of the religion of protestants of scripture the only rule, of differences among protestants, of using force in matters of religion &c. : with a preface to the reader giving the reason of publishing these passages. religion of protestants a safe way to salvation. selections chillingworth, william, 1602-1644. [2], 7 p. printed for francis smith, london : 1680. extracts from the author's the religion of protestants a safe way to salvation. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism -early works to 1800. 2005-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-10 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-04 ali jakobson sampled and proofread 2006-04 ali jakobson text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion mr. chillingvvorth's judgment of the religion of protestants . of scripture the only rule . of differences among protestants . of using force in matters of religion , &c. with a preface to the reader , giving the reason of publishing these passages . london , printed for francis smith , at the elephant and castle in cornhil , near the royal exchange . 1680 : to the reader . he that is arrived at such a degree of wickedness , that his principles will allow him to equivocate in the most solemn asseverations , and to put on any person or shape for the carrying on his designs , has thereby a great advantage over the common people , who being more honest and simple , can scarce think it possible , that men , professing god and religion , should admit of principles and practices so diametrically contrary : and men that are prepossessed with prejudices of envy , ill-will , or the like , against their neighbours , do readily embrace those mens suggestions against these , how false and groundless soever they be . hence it is , that our popish enemies having no other way to save themselves from the demerits of their hellish plots , do very industriously by pamphlets and otherwise labour to beget and encrease enmity among dissenting protestants , and they so far prevail , that notwithstanding the destructin designed by them against protestants , yet some have greater enmity and bitterness towards those that differ from them either in lesser points of religion , or in sentiments about civil matters , than against the papists themselves . which may be perceived , not only in common converse , but even in the pulpit it self : whence i must confess , i have sometimes heard ( though not in my own parish ) discourses so full of rancor and bitterness against dissenting protestants , that i could not but greatly bewail the ill tendencies thereof , and at the same time was glad my children and servants were not there , that they might not learn by such rhetorical invectives to malign their neighbours , instead of loving their enemies , as christ has commanded . these men pretending great zeal for the government and church of england ( as those members of the last long parliament also did , who were expelled thence for being papists ) will difficulty allow any other but such as themselves to be at all protestants . wherefore i thought it would be of service to protestantism , or reformed christianity , to mind my country-men of the judgment of the learned and judicious mr. chillingworth concerning the religion of protestants , the differences among them , the use of force and compulsion in religion , private judgment of conscience , in dissent from publick , and some other matters controverted between protestants and papists , which i have collected out of his book , intituled , the religion of protestants a safe way to salvation : and which i hope will be of the greater prevalency with some , not only for the great strength of reason and judgment found therein : but moreover , for that mr. chillingworth had himself been once of the roman church , and had therefore experience as well as judgment to guide him in these matters . he wrote also in the year 1637 , which was before the following unnatural war. he was not only of the church of england himself , which he defended against the papists : but his book had the approbation of the then vice-chancellor , and both the kings and margret professor's of divinity in the university of oxon. the very chief men in office there . their approbation take in their own words , englished for the sake of those that know not latine . let this book be committed to the press , the title whereof is , the religion of protestants ● a safe way to salvation . in which there is nothing contrary to good manners , to the doctrine and discipline asserted in the church of england . rich. bayley , vice-canc . oxon. i have read over this book , the title of which is , the religion of protestants a safe way to salvation . in which i find nothing contrary to the doctrine and discipline of the english church ; but very many things which notably illustrate the orthodox faith , and do acutely , clearly and modestly dissipate the contrary glosses : jo. prideaux , s. t. p. regius oxon. i samuel fell , publick professor of theology in the university of oxford , and ordinary lecturer of lady margaret , gountess of richmond , have read over the book , the title of which is , the religion of protestants a safe way to salvation : in which i find nothing contrary to the doctrine or discipline of the church of england ; or to good manners , but many things strongly and modestly discussed against the adversaries of our church , and the catholick truth , which he happily defends . dated oct. 14. anno 1637. samuel fell. this book was dedicated by mr. will. chillingworth to his majesty , charles i. and is generally approved by learned protestants , as the ablest defence of the protestants cause against the papists , that is any where extant . there was another edition of this book , licensed by g. stradling , ann . 1663 , chaplain to the then arch-bishop of cant. in these words englished : i have read over this book , the title of which , the religion of protestants a safe way to salvation : also nine sermons lately added : in all which i find nothing contrary to the doctrine or discipline of the church of england ; but that it may be printed with the greatest profit of all men . i have transcribed these testimonies for the sake of those that crack , the church of england , the church of england , they are the only protestants , &c. by which it appears , that they do not understand the religion of protestants , or else for sinister ends conceal their knowledge . i am perswaded , that these collections may give occasion to some , that have not , to read the book , and to others to be more moderate in their censures of dissenting protestants . it would be very happy for us all , if we put in practice faithfully his advice , which tends so much to love and peace , that it would contribute much both to our present weal and eternal happiness . mr. chillingvvorth's judgment of the religion of protestants , etc. of the religion of protestants . chap. 6. nom. 56. know then , sir , that when i say the religion of protestants is in prudence to be preferred before yours : as on the other side i do not understand by your religion the doctrine of bellarmine , or baronius , or any other private man amongst you , nor the doctrine of the sorbon , or of the jesuits , or of the dominicans , or of any other particular company amongst you , but that wherein you all agree , or profess to agree , the doctrine of the council of trent : so accordingly on the other side , by the religion of protestants , i do not understand the doctrine of luther , or calvin , or melanchton , nor the confession of augusta or geneva , nor the catechism of heidelburg , nor the articles of the church of england , no , nor the harmony of protestant confessions ; but that wherein they all agree , and which they all subscribe with a greater harmony , as a perfect rule of their faith and actions ; that is , the bible , the bible , i say the bible only is the religion of protestants ! whatsoever else they believe besides it , and the plain irrefragable , indubitable consequences of it , well may they hold it as a matter of opinion , but not as a matter of faith and religion ; neither can they with coherence to their own grounds believe it themselves , nor require the belief of it of others , without most high and most schismatical presumption . i , for my part , after a long ( and as i utterly believe and hope ) impartial search of the true way to eternal happiness , do profess plainly , that i cannot find any rest for the sole of my foot , but upon this rock only . i see plainly and with mine own eyes , that there are popes against popes , councils against councils , some fathers against others , the same fathers against themselves , a consent of fathers of one age against the church of another age ; traditive interpretations of scripture are pretended , but there are few or none to be found : no tradition but only of scripture can drive it self from the fountain , but may be plainly proved , either to have been brought in , in such an age after christ , or that in such an age it was not in . in a word , there is no sufficient certainty but of the scripture only , for any considering man to build upon . this therefore , and this only , i have reason to believe ; this i will profess , according to this i will live , and for this , if there be occasion , i will not only willingly , but even gladly lose my life , though i should be sorry that christians should take it from me . propose me any thing out of this book , and require whether i believe it or no , and seem it never so incomprehensible to humane reason , i will subscribe it with hand and heart , as knowing no demonstration can be stronger than this , god hath said so , therefore it is true . in other things i will take no mans liberty of judgment from him , neither shall any man take mine from me ; i will think no man the worse man or the worse christian ; i will love no man the less for differing in opinion from me ; and what measure i mete to others , i expect from them again : i am fully assured that god does not , and therefore that men ought not to require any more of any man than this , to believe the scriptures to be god's word , to endeavour to find the true sence of it , and to live according to it . n. 57. this is the religion which i have chosen after a long deliberation , and i am verily perswaded that i have chosen wisely , much more wisely than if i had guided my self according to your churches authority ; for the scripture being all true , i am secured by believing nothing else , that i shall believe no falshood as matter of faith : and if i mistake the senee of scripture , and so fall into error , yet i am secure from any danger thereby , if but your grounds be true ; because endeavouring to find the true sence of scripture , i cannot but hold my error without pertinacy , and be ready to forsake it , when a more true and a more probable sence shall appear unto me : and then all necessary truth being , as i have proved , plainly set down in scripture , i am certain by believing scripture , to believe all necessary truth ; and he that does so , if his life be answerable to his faith , how is it possible he should fail of salvation ? scripture the only rule whereby to judge of controversies ? chap. 2. n. 11. — to speak properly ( as men should speak when they write of controversies in religion ) the scripture is not a judge of controversies , but a rule only , and the only rule for christians to judg them by : every man is to judge for himself with the judgment of discretion , and to chuse either his religion first , and then his church as we say ; or as you , his church first , and then his religion . but by the consent of both sides , every man is to judg and chuse ; and the rule whereby he is to direct his choice , if he be a natural man , is reason ; if he be already a christian , scripture , which we say is the rule to judge all controversies by , yet not all simply , but all the controversies of christians , of those that are already agreed upon this first principle , that the scripture is the word of god. but that there is any man , or any company of men , appointed to be judg for all men , that we deny ; and that i believe you will never prove . every man to judg for himself in matters of religion . chap. 2. n. 16. in civil and criminal causes , the parties have for the most part so much interest , and very often so little honesty , that they will not submit to a law though never so plain , if it be against them ; or will not see it to be against them , though it be so never so plainly : whereas if men were honest , and the law were plain and extended to all cases , there would be little need of judges . now in matters of religion , when the question is , whether every man be a fit judg and chuser for himself , we suppose men honest , and such as understand the difference between a moment and eternity ; and such men , we conceive , will think it highly concerns them to be of the true religion , but nothing at all that this or that religion should be the true : and then we suppose that all the necessary points of religion are plain and easie , and consequently every man in his cause to be a competent judg for himself , because it concerns himself to judg right as much as eternal happiness is worth , and if through his own default he judg amiss , he alone shall suffer for it . ch. 3. n. 81. — if they [ men ] would be themselves , and be content that others should be , in the choice of their religion , the servants of god and not of men ; if they would allow , that the way to heaven is no narrower now than christ left it , this yoak no heavier than he made it ; that the belief of no more difficulties is required now to salvation , than was in the primitive church ; that no error is in it self destructive and exclusive from salvation now , which was not then ; if instead of being zealous papists , earnest calvinists , rigid lutherans , they would become themselves , and be content that others should be plain and honest christians ; if all men would believe the scripture , and freeing themselves from prejudice and passion , would sincerely endeavour to find the true sence of it , and live according to it , and require no more of others but to do so , not denying their communion to any that do so , would so order their publick service of god , that all which do so may without scruple or hypocrisie , or protestation against any part of it , joyn with them in it ; who does not see that ( seeing as we suppose here , and shall prove hereafter ) all necessary truths are plainly and evidently set down in scripture , there would of necessity be among all men , in all things necessary , unity of opinion ? and notwithstanding any other differences that are or could be , unity of communion , and charity , and mutual toleration ; by which means all schism and heresie would be banished the world , and those wretched contentions which now rend and tear in pieces not the coat , but the members and bowels of christ , with mutual pride and tyranny , and cursing , killing , and damning , would fain make mortal , should speedily receive a most blessed catastrophe . but of this hereafter , when we shall come to the question of schism , wherein i perswade my self that i shall plainly shew , that the most vehement accusers are the greatest offenders , and that they are indeed at this time the greatest schismaticks , who make the way to heaven narrower , the yoke of christ heavier , the differences of faith greater , the conditions of ecclesiastical government harder and stricter , than they were made at the beginning by christ and his apostles ; they who talk of unity and aim at tyranny , and will have peace with none but with their slaves and vassals . pref. n. 30. — for what one conclusion is there in the whole fabrick of my discourse , that is not naturally deducible out of this one principle , that all things necessary to salvation are evidently contained in the scriptures ? or what one conclusion almost of importance is there in your book , which is not by this one clearly confutable ? grant this , and it will presently follow in opposition to your first conclusion , and the argument of your first chapter , that amongst men of different opinions , touching the obscure and controverted questions of religion , such as may with probability be disputed on both sides , ( and such are the disputes of protestants ) good men and lovers of truth of all sides may be saved , because all necessary things being supposed evident concerning them , with men so qualified , there will be no difference ; there being no more certain sign that a point is not evident , than that honest and understanding and indifferent men , and such as give themselves liberty of judgment , after a mature consideration of the matter , differ about it . of disagreeing protestants . ans . to pref. n. 26. 1. the most disagreeing protestants that are , yet thus far agree , that these books of scripture which were never doubted of in the church , are the undoubted word of god , and a perfect rule of faith. 2. that the sense of them which god intended , whatsoever it is , is certainly true ; so that they believe implicitly even those very truths against which they err ; and why an implicit faith in christ and his word , should not suffice as well as an implicit faith in your church , i have desired to be resolved by many of your side , but never could . 3. that they are to use their best endeavours to believe the scripture in true sense , and to live according to it . this if they perform ( as i hope many on all sides do ) truly and sincerely , it is impossible but that they should believe aright in all things necessary to salvation , that is , in all those things that pertain to the covenant between god and man in christ ; for so much is not only plainly but frequently contained in scripture and believing aright the covenant , if they for their parts perform the condition required of them , which is sincere obedience , why should they not expect that god will perform his promise and give them salvation ? for as for other things which lye without the covenant , and are therefore less necessary , if by reason of the seeming conflict which is oftentimes between scripture , reason , and authority on the one side , and scripture , reason , and authority on the other , if by reason of the variety of tempers , abilities , educations , and unavoidable prejudices , whereby mens understandings are variously formed and fashioned , they do embrace several opinions whereof some must be erroneous ; to say that god will damn them for such errors , who are lovers of him , and lovers of truth , is to rob man of his comfort , and god of his goodness , it is to make man desperate , and god a tyrant . ib. n. 27. that it is sufficient for any mans salvation that he believe the scripture , that he endeavour to believe it in the true sence of it as far as concerns his duty ; and that he conform his life unto it either by obedience or repentance : he that does so , ( and all protestants , according to the dictamen of their religion , should do so ) may be secured that he cannot err fundamentally , so that notwithstanding their differences and your presumption , the same haven may receive them all . ib. n. 29. who can find fault with him [ de potter ] for saying ; if through want of means of instruction , incapacity , invincible or probable ignorance , a man dye in error , he may be saved : but if he be negligent in seeking truth , unwilling to find it , either doth or will not see it , or might see it and will not , that his case is dangerous and without repentance desperate . ch. 1. n. 11. methinks with much more reason and much more charity , you must suppose that many of these controversies which are now disputed among christians ( all which profess themselves lovers of christ , and truly desirous to know his will and do it ) are either not decidable by that means which god hath provided , and so not necessary to be decided ; or if they be , yet not so plainly and evidently , as to oblige men to hold one way : or lastly , if decidable , and evidently decided , yet you may hope that the erring part , by reason of some veil before their eyes , some excusable ignorance or unavoidable prejudice does not see the question to be decided against him , and so opposes not that which he doth know to be the word of god , but only that which you know to be so , and which he might know , were he void of prejudice : which is a fault , i confess , but a fault which is incident even to good and honest men very often ; and not of such a gigantick disposition as you make it , to flie directly upon god almighty , and to give him the lye to his face . of the necessity of a visible judge in controversies of religion , as well as in civil matters . ch. 1. n. 17. — in civil controversies we are obliged only to external passive obedience , and not to an internal and active . we are bound to obey the sentence of the judge , or not to resist it , but not always to believe it just . but in matters of religion such a judge is required whom we should be obliged to believe to have judged right , so that in civil controversies every honest and understanding man is fit to be a judge , but in religion none but he that is infallible . 5. in civil causes there is means and power , when the judge has decreed to compel men to obey his sentence : otherwise i believe laws alone would be to as much purpose for the ending of differences , as laws and judges both . but all the power in the world is neither fit to convince , nor able to compel a man's conscience to consent to any thing ; worldly terror may prevail so far asto make men profess a religion which they believe not , ( such men i mean who know not that there is a heaven provided for martyrs , and a hell for those that dissemble such truths as are necessary to be professed ) but to force either any man to believe what he believes not , or any honest man to dissemble what he does believe ( if god commands him to profess it ) or to profess what he does not believe , all the powers in the world are too weak , with all the powers of hell to assist them . 7. in civil matters it is impossible titius should hold the land in question , and sempronius too ; and therefore either the plaintiff must injure the defendant by disquieting his possession , or the defendant wrong the plaintiff , by keeping his right from him . but in controversies of religion the case is otherwise , i may hold my opinion , and do you no wrong , and you yours , and do me none . nay , we may both of us hold our opinion , and yet do our selves no harm , provided the difference be not touching any thing necessary to salvation , and that we love truth so well , as to be diligent to inform our conscience , and constant in following it . concerning errors damnable or not damnable . ch. 3. n. 52. i answer that these differences between protestants concerning errors damnable , and not damnable : truths fundamental and not fundamental may be easily reconciled ; for either the error they speak of , may be purely and simply involuntary , or it may be in respect of the cause of it voluntarily : if the cause of it be some voluntary and unavoidable fault , the error is it self sinful , and consequently in its own nature damnable ; as if by negligence in seeking the truth , by unwillingness to find it , by pride , by obstinacy , by desiring that religion should be true which suits best with my ends , by fear of mens ill opinion , or any other worldly fear , or any worldly hope , i betray my self to any error contrary to any divine revealed truth , that error may be justly styled a sin , and consequently of it self to such an one damnable ; but if i be guilty of none of these faults , but be desirous to know the truth , and diligent in seeking it , and advise not at all with flesh and blood a-about the choice of my opinions , but only with god and that reason that he hath given me : if i be thus qualifyed , and yet through humane infirmity fall into error , that error cannot be damnable . again , the party erring may be conceived either to dye with contrition , for all his sins known and unknown , or without it : if he dye without it , this error in it self is damnable , will be likewise so unto him ; if he dye with contrition ( as his error can be no impediment but he may ) his error , though in it self damnable , to him , according to your doctrine , will not prove so . of using force in matters of religion . ch. 5. n. 96. but they endeavoured to force the society whereof they were parts , to be healed and reformed as they were , and if it refused , they did , when they had power , drive them away , even their superiors both spiritual and temporal , as is notorious . the proofs hereof are wanting , and therefore i might defer my answer until they were produced , yet take this before hand : if they did so , then herein , in my opinion , they did amiss ; for i have learnt from the ancient fathers of the church , that nothing is more against religion , than to force religion ; and of st. paul , the weapons of the christian warfare are not carnal ; and great reason : for humane violence may make men counterfeit , but cannot make them believe , and is therefore fit for nothing , but to breed form without and atheism within . besides , if this means of bringing men to embrace any religion were generally used , ( as if it may be justly used in any place , by those that have power and think they have truth , certainly they cannot with reason deny , but that it may be used in every place , by those that have power as well as they , and think they have truth as well as they ) what could follow but the maintenance perhaps of truth , but perhaps only of the profession of it in one place , and the oppression of it in a hundred ? what will follow from it but the preservation peradventure of unity , but peradventure only of uniformity in particular states and churches ; but the immortalizing the greater and more lamentable divisions of christendom and the world ? and therefore what can follow from it , but perhaps in the judgment of carnal policy , the temporal benefit and tranquillity of temporal states and kingdoms , but the infinite prejudice , if not the dissolution of the kingdom of christ ? and therefore it well becomes them who have their portions in this life , who serve no higher state than that of england , or spain , or france , nor this neither any further than they may serve themselves by it ; who think of no other happiness but the preservation of their own fortunes and tranquillity in this world ; who think of no other means to preserve states but humane power and machiavilian policy , and believe no other creed but this , regi aut civitati imperium habenti nihil unjustum quod utile ! such men as these it may become to maintain by worldly power and violence , their state , instrument , religion ; for if all be vain and false ( as in their judgment it is ) the present whatsoever is better than any , because it is already setled : an alteration of it may draw with it change of states , and the change of state the subversion of their fortune ; but they that are indeed servants and lovers of christ , of truth , of the church , and of mankind , ought with all courage , to oppose themselves against it as a common enemy of all these . they that know there is a king of kings , and lord of lords , by whose will and pleasure kings and kingdoms stand and fall ; they know that to no king or state any thing can be profitable which is unjust , and that nothing can be more evidently unjust , than to force weak men by the profession of a religion which they believe not , to lose their own eternal happiness out of a vain and needless fear , lest they may possibly disturb their temporal quietness , there being no danger to any state from any mans opinion , unless it be such an opinion by which disobedience to authority or impiety is taught or licensed ; which sort i confess may justly be punished as well as other faults ; or unless this sanguinary doctrine be joyned with it , that it is lawful for him by humane violence to enforce others to it . chap. 4. n. 16. this presumptuous imposing of the senses of men upon the words of god , the special senses of men upon the general words of god , and laying them upon mens consciences together under the equal penalty of death and damnation . this vain conceit that we can speak of the things of god better than the words of god ; this deifying our own interpretations , and tyrannous enforcing them upon others ; this restraining of the word of god , from that latitude and generality , and the understandings of men from that liberty , wherein christ and the apostles left them ; this perswasion is no singularity of mine , but the doctrine which i have learned from divines of great learning and judgment . let the reader be pleased to peruse the seventh book of acont . de strat. satanae , and zanch. his last oration delivered by him after the composing of the discord between him and amervachius , and he shall confess as much is , and hath been the only fountain of all the schisms of the church , and that which makes them immortal : the common incendiary of christendom , and that which ( as i said before ) tears in pieces not the coat but the bowels and members of christ ; ridente turca , nec dolente judaeo , take away these walls of separation , and all will quickly be one . take away this persecuting , burning , cursing , damning of men for not subscribing to the words of men , as the words of god , require of christians only to believe christ , and to call no man master but him only ; let those leave claiming infallibility , that have no title to it , and let them that in their words disclaim it , disclaim it likewise in their actions . in a word , take away tyranny which is the devils instrument to support errors , and superstitions , and impieties , in the several parts of the world , which could not otherwise long withstand the power of truth . i say take away tyranny , and restore christians to their just and full liberty of captivating their understanding to scripture only , and as rivers , when they have a free passage , run all to the ocean , so it may well be hoped by gods blessing , that universal liberty thus moderated , may quickly reduce christendom to truth and unity . these thoughts of peace ( i am perswaded ) may come from the god of peace , and to his blessing i recommend them . finis . a faithful testimony concerning the true worship of god what it is in it self, and who are the true vvorshippers : in opposition to all the false worship in this nation, which is idolatry, which is discovered in its foundation, and in its manifestation, not to be ever commanded of god, or practised by his apostles and saints, but it is declared to consist chiefly of such things and practises as had their first beginning and ordination in the church of rome ... and this is written for a general good to all such as are worshipping in temples made with hands / by e.b. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a30523 of text r36302 in the english short title catalog (wing b6002). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 34 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a30523 wing b6002 estc r36302 15642966 ocm 15642966 104275 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30523) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 104275) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1182:3) a faithful testimony concerning the true worship of god what it is in it self, and who are the true vvorshippers : in opposition to all the false worship in this nation, which is idolatry, which is discovered in its foundation, and in its manifestation, not to be ever commanded of god, or practised by his apostles and saints, but it is declared to consist chiefly of such things and practises as had their first beginning and ordination in the church of rome ... and this is written for a general good to all such as are worshipping in temples made with hands / by e.b. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. [2], 14 p. printed for thomas simmons ..., london : 1659. reproduction of original in the huntington library. eng catholic church -controversial literature. society of friends -apologetic works. protestantism -controversial literature. a30523 r36302 (wing b6002). civilwar no a faithful testimony concerning the true worship of god: what it is in it self, and who are the true vvorshippers. in opposition to all the burrough, edward 1659 6781 3 0 0 0 0 0 4 b the rate of 4 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-01 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-02 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2004-02 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a faithful testimony concerning the true worship of god : what it is in it self , and who are the true vvorshippers . in opposition to all the false worship in this nation , which is idolatry , which is discovered in its foundation , and in its manifestation , not to be ever commanded of god , or practised by his apostles and saints ; but it is declared to consist chiefly of such things and practises as had their first beginning and ordination in the church of rome , whereby the hypocrisie of this generation doth appear , in denying and crying against the papists idolatries , and yet are found in the practise of the same thing in their church , ministry , and worship , which were first instituted by the pope's authority . and this is written for a general good to all such as are worshipping in temples made with hands ; by e. b. london , printed for thomas simmons , at the bull and mouth near aldersgate , 1659. a faithful testimony concerning the true worship of god , what it is in it self , and who are the true worshippers , &c. forasmuch as there is in the world a great controversie among people concerning the worship of god , one crying , this is the right worshp : another , that is the right worship ; and people in these nations are divided about the worship of god , and divers one from another in their performances and practices of worship , one sort worshipping after this manner , another after that , and there is great strife through the whole nation about this matter , and a great dis-satisfaction among people , which is the right worship , and who are the right worshippers , and thousands are desiring after the right worship of god , and to become worshippers of him as he requires : therefore now it is upon me to shew unto all the world what the true worship of god is in it self , and who are his true worshippers . first , the worship of god in it self is this ; it is a walking with god , and a living with him in converse and fellowship , in spirit and truth ; for he is onely worshipped therein ; and to do the truth , and speak the truth ; this is the true worship of god , where the mind is guided with the spirit of truth , and the presence of the lord felt at all times , and his fear in the hearts of people , and his councel stood in , and his covenant felt , which unites to the lord in spirit : this is the true worship of god , and it is without respect of times or things , and now none upon earth can thus worship god , but who are changed and renewed in heart and mind , and born of the spirit , and led thereby , where the body of sin and death is put off , such as are redeemed out of the world , and out of all its wayes and nature , such onely can worship god in the spirit and in the truth , and such is the father seeking to worship him now in this present age ; and there is never a one upon earth that can worship god as he requires , who remains unchanged , and are in the transgression , unrenewed and unconverted , such cannot worship the true and living god , but that which they perform and practise as the pretence of his worship , is idolatry and abomination , and the lord hath not required it at their hands ; for none can walk with god , nor have unity with him , but who are renewed and changed ; nor none can do the truth , and speak the truth in all things , but such who are led by the spirit of truth , and such are in the covenant of god , and true worshippers of him , and all that is contrary , is not the worship of god , but idolatry , as i have said . and now as concerning this worship practised in england in these steeplehouses , churches , ( so called ) it is not the worship of the living god , but superstition and idolatry , for people hath not learned it by the teachings of the spirit , neither doth the spirit lead them therein , but it stands in form without power , and in the inventions and traditions of the fathers , and there is not in it the manifest presence of god , neither do you worshippers meet with the lord , nor enjoy his pure life and presence in your practises ; and the substance of your worship ( as it is now practised ) is made up of inventions some part of your own , and some part brought along from the church of rome ; and is it not great hypocrisie in you to profess a denial of the church of rome , and yet be found practising some of the same things as your worship , which the church of rome first instituted and practised as her worship ? shall we instance unto you some particular things ? was it not by the authority of the church of rome , that these houses in which you worship , which you call churches , were first set up and made worshipping places for them ? and is it not a little while since that the mass , and the old popish stuff was therein exercised with as great zeal towards god , ( if not with as good sincerity ) as you practice yours at this day ? and are there not the very signs and symptoms of the romish idolatry yet upon these houses , being full of images on the walls , and on the pillars , and on the glass-windows and crosses about them , and many other things which were popish inventions , as also the names given unto them , and consecrated bells in them , and such like stuff ? and was it not a little while since that there was the altars , and the rails , and the font , and other such like things which lately were broken down ? but however though something there may be altered , and changed , and converted to another use , and something taken away , and other inventions brought in , instead thereof , yet still they are the same houses which you worship your god in , which houses were set up by the authority of the pope , and there remains yet the popes sign and symptome of the romish church upon them ; and these houses you call your churches , and thousand of thousands of blind ignorant people esteeming and respecting in their minds of these places more then of any other , supposing them to be more holy and that other places are not so good to worship in ; alas poor , blind , ignorant people , that deceives your own souls in the traditions & inventions of man , which you live in the practise of , supposing it to be the very worship of god , which is no other in it self but idolatry , and you idolaters ; for doth not all unconverted people , and unrighteous people , such who are not taught of the lord , nor led by his spirit , but daylie rushes into iniquity , and into evil , are not such found worshippers here in steeplehouses , conforming themselves to these things , and these practises ? and can such worship god ? or is god worshipped by such ? i tell you nay , the lord god is pure , and they that worship him , must be sanctified , and led by his spirit which leadeth into all truth : but now as concerning your present practises which your worship consists of , they are not such as ever the lord instituted , but such as men hath set up in their own wills and wisdom , and not in the lords . as for your sprinkling of infants , which is a chief practise of your worship , was not this first ordained at rome ? read the records . and was it not a popish invention which you are thus zealously reforming , as if it were indeed required of the lord ? can the unconverted and unregenerated be truly baptized into the faith of christ ? no ; but the unconverted and unregenerated are partakers of your baptism into the faith which you profess : there was no such practise in the christians church before the apostacy ; but when the apostacy came in , then came up these inventions and imitations which you practise as the worship of god , whenas he never required it , neither did his saints and his apostles ever give your example for it . and by it , nor in it , god is not worshipped ; neither is it in it self , nor as practised by you , any part of the worship of god , but stands in the inventions of man , and is after their traditions , and not after the commandments of the lord . and as for your singing of david's experiences in the form and manner as you do , practising it as another main part of your worship ; this is the same with the former , neither ever commanded of the lord , nor ( in the course and manner as you do it ) was it ever practised by the saints of old ; and is it any better then a popish invention ? for was the nation in any better state then popery , when that practise was first instituted and begun to be performed ; you your selves will confess that it was in the time of darkness , and through the ordination of the bishops and prelates , whom you your selves say were little better then papists in their worship and practise ; and yet this you practise at this day as a part of your worship , which hath no better beginning then as i have said , and from them you have received it , to wit , from the bishops and prelates ; yea , the chief part of your worship consists of the performances of such things as you have received traditionally from them , and from ●ome , for all these things they instituted . and as concerning your ministry , is it any other with that , then with these particulars as i have mentioned ? is it not the same ministry in substance , though in some particulars altered , as was in the dayes of popery and prelacy ? have not your ministers the same call to their ministry , and the same practise in their ministry , and the same maintenance at this day , as was in generations past , when this nation was under the cloud of darkness and ignorance , as your selves will confess ? are not they made ministers now by natural learning , receiving ordination from man , through the attainments of such arts , and sciences , & degrees , through natural learning and humane policy , not having their ministry by the gift of the holy ghost , no more then the papists and prelates had before them , who were made ministers by the same power , and after the same manner as these are : and it was the church of rome , and by the popish authority , that colledges and schools , to make ministers by them , were first ordained and set up ; and as that ministry was sent forth in the time of popery , by the same way and means ( generally as to substance ) are your ministers now sent forth , though in some particulars differing in matter of form , yet the same for substance : but christs ministers in the time of the true church , were not thus sent forth , but had received power from on high , and the gift of the holy ghost , whereby they were made able ministers , and not by any other thing , nor by any such means or way as your ministers now are set up and established ; and this ministry is differing from the true ministry which christ sent forth , and is not according , but contrary in all things ; and it is not the ministry of god which brings people to god ; but by this ministry people are not converted , but such it is that the true prophet cryed against ; they have run , saith the lord , and i have not sent them , therefore they shall not profit the people at all . and as for this maintenance of the ministry of the church of england , is it not the same as was in the days of popery & prelacy ? was it not by the popes authority that tythes were first established & set up to be the maintenance of his ministry ? & did not the romish church first ordain that the people should give the tenth to the use of religion , and to maintain their ministry ? if you search the records , you will find it so . and was it not the very practice of the papists and prelates ministers , to have hire , and great sums of money by the year , and stipends , and large benefits for preaching ; and the same things are practised by these ministers , which they have borrowed from the papists and prelates which went before them ; for are not these ministers maintained by tythes as the popes ministers were ? and have they not hire and great sums of money by the year , or quarterly , even as the papists and prelates had ? wherefore it is plain , that the maintenance of your ministers is the very same for substance as theirs were that went before you , which you your selves say were idolaters ; and if they were idolaters , how can you ministers be free which doth practice the very same things , unto the very same end ? and doth not the priests of this generation far exceed the papists and prelates ? was there ever in generations past such casting people into prison , and spoyling peoples goods , as is at this day through the means of these priests , and all about their maintenance , and for their tythes and hire , and yearly stipends , and quarterly gain ▪ did ever the papists or prelates worse in this particular , with any people that denyed them wages , then these do that denied ●hem oh! great blindness and ignorance is over your hearts , and great hypocrisie among your ministers , who profess a denial and dissenting from the church of rome , and cryes against them as hereticks , and that they are in ignorance , and yet practises the very same things ; their call is the very same to their ministry , and their maintenance the same , and practise in many things the very same as theirs were , which they seem to deny ; and this is great hypocrisie , to cast out and kill their persons , and yet to uphold in many things their practise , relating to their worship and their ministry : oh abominable idolatry ! the hand of the lord is against it . but this is not the way that christs ministers were maintained , they had no such hire nor great sums of money , nor yearly tythes , as these ministers have through the popes institution ; but into whatsoever house they entered , that was worthy , they might eat such things as were set before them , and the apostles might freely reap carnal things , where they had sown spiritual things ; but this was after another manner , and after another nature ; for if they had not that , yet did they not cast men into prison , and spoyle their goods that would not give it them , as this generation of teachers do ; and the lord god is risen to confound this worship and this ministry , which is idolatry , and this church , which is but a false feigned imitation , and he will establish his true worship that is in spirit and in truth ; and his true ministry that is by the gift of the holy ghost , and his true church ; and this shall be brought to pass in his day . but again , there is another practise which you have , which the church of rome , and the prelates had , ( your predecessors ) if any come in the name of the lord to declare against you , and against your abominations , to cry against your sin , and cry repentance among you , that you may be converted to god , this you account a great transgression , and persecutes them that doth it , by imprisoning , and whipping , and stocking , and by imposing great fines upon them , and causing them to suffer cruel things , and this did the papists and prelates in like manner as you do , if any was moved to cry against them , they indeed rewarded them even as you do at this day , the same thing you do against such as are moved of the lord to come among you ; and herein you succeed them , and brings forth the same persecution in your churches , as they did in their churches ; and this is the defence of your church , and of your ministry , carnal weapons , imprisonment , and whipping , and stocking , and causing the bodyes of people to suffer through cruelty and injustice , and by this means is your church & ministry defended & preserved , or otherwise it would presently fall , as not being able to continue nor resist , nor gain-say the spirit & power of god , which now is risen to oppose them , if they had not carnal laws , and earthly powers , and gaols , and houses of correction to defend themselves by : and is this the church of christ ? and is this christs ministry that have need of such weapons as these ? the apostles nor true churches never did thus , neither sent people to prison that opposed them , nor had such cruelty to execute upon the bodyes of people , though many did oppose them out of wickednesse , but the spirit and authority of the lord did defend them from all their enemies . but your church and ministry is manifest to be another then that was , and to be defended by another means , even by the same means that the papists and prelates of old were of a long time defended by ; but when the measure of these things are fulfilled , they will come to an end : as the measure of that generations iniquity was fulfilled which went before you , so in the lords season will your measure be fulfilled , and the lords people shall be free , and all bonds of iniquity broken . and thus it is manifest that this church and ministry succeeds the church of rome and her ministers , far more then the church of christ and its true ministers , & to that it is not equal in any thing , but to the church of rome it is comparable in many things ; so that it is manifest , that this church and ministry are not quite another then the church and ministry of rome , but such as hath dissented from them , and are truly sprung out of that root , and is the same still in substance , though differing in some practises , having cast out some old inventions , and brought in some new , but as i have said , remains still the same in nature and substance , though dissented in some particulars , yet succeedeth in many particulars , as i may shew more fully hereafter . and though you bare the name , and stile your selves , the reformed churches , you mean , reformed from the church of rome ; but how are you reformed ? but by some visible appearances , and not in the ground , having put off but some of her garments , and remains the same body for substance , in nature and matter , though differing onely in appearances ? for the church which is the true church of christ , is not thus reformed , onely changed in part , and altered in degrees , but the true church denies the church of rome in her very being and ground , and in all her practises whatsoever ; for though many sects have risen one from another , yet all the same for substance , onely differing in particulars : but as for you to whom this particular is written , that worship god in steeplehouses , you are not so much differing from the church of rome , as many others are , which are not true churches neither ; but the lord god is now gathering his people ; wherefore come out of your idol-worship , and idol-temples , for god dwells not in them , nor is not worshipped there , but he dwells and walks in his saints , and is worshipped in spirit and in truth , and his day is dawned , and his glory is risen , and he will confound this church and ministry which bears the marks of the romish whore , & hath her symptoms and characters remaining upon them unto this day , as it is manifest . and though some may object and say , that god commanded a temple to be builded for the worship of his name , and ordinances to be practised in the time of the old covenant . to which i do say , yea it was so , a temple was builded by solomon for the seed of the iews to worship in , and to come to sacrifice to the lord in , and there was an outward worship and ordinances ; but it is many hundred years since this temple was destroyed , and worship and ordinances thrown down , which god once commanded , and his people once practised ; and christ the life , the power , and wisdom of god , was the substance thereof , and unto whom he was made manifest , and in whom he was revealed in the spirit , they utterly renounced and denyed the temple , and the worship therein , though god once had commanded it ; and the saints after the manifesting of christ to them in spirit , and after that the holy ghost was given , we do not find through all the churches of the saints , that they worshipped in the temple of the iews , but witnessed against it , and said that god dwelt not in temples made with hands , neither was he worshipped in temples made with hands , but in the spirit , and in the truth their worship consisted , & therefore were persecuted ; but they bare witnesse against the temple , & the worship , & those ordinances which god once had commanded , & which once his people practised , though it was to the peril of their lives ; but as for these temples , and these ordinances , and this worship which are now on foot , they were never brought forth by any ordination or commandment of god , but the foundation of them was the inventions of men , and mens traditions taught them , and not the spirit of the lord , and therefore against those things , those temples , and those ordinances , and vvorships , much reason have we to cry against them all , as being neither sign nor substance of good , but wholly inventions of men . the jews temple and ordinance was signs of good things to come , and when the substance was come , the saints denyed the shadows and the figures ; but as for these , they are denyed wholly , as being idolatry and abomination from the beginning to the end of them ; for as i have shown , these things ( which are the matter of which your worship and ordinance doth consist ) had their rise and beginning in the days of darknesse and ignorance , since the apostacy came in , and so in the name and authority of the lord , we do declare against them , even against your temples and whole worship , to the intent to bring you to the true worship , that is in spirit and in truth , and that you might know your bodyes the temples of god , and that he might dwell in you , and walk in you , according as he hath promised in the new covenant . wherefore all people , awake and come out of your idolatry , and idolatrous worships , seperate your selves , touch no more of it , that the lord may receive you , and that you may come into his covenant , which is life and peace for your souls , for in those worships , and temples , and all your practises therein , you have not true peace with the lord , nor the refreshments from his pure presence , but sin and death reigns amongst you , and great ignorance is over your hearts , and idolatry corrupts your minds , and the lord hath been forgotten by you , dayes without number ; god is not well-pleased , neither hath any delight in your worship ; for your worship of him , and fear towards him , is but taught by the precepts of men , and by the traditions of the fathers in the days of popery , and if ever he opens your eyes , you will see it , for it is with the humble and contrite in heart that the lord dwels , him that crembleth at the word of the lord , whose heart is right in his sight , and hath learned his judgements and fear , and such as are changed and renewed , and born of the seed of god , and begotten by his powerful word , such are the true worshippers whom the lord is seeking , and such will he find to worship him . and whereas there is a great cry amongst you , and among many people at this day , about deceivers , and being deceived , and there are many deceivers , you say , and your cry is one to another , take heed you be not deceived by false teachers and false doctrine . this is the cry of parents to children , and of children to parents , and of masters to servants , and of servants to masters , and chiefly , it is the cry of your priests to the people , take heed you be not deceived , &c. now to all this i do say , that there are many deceivers , and many are deceived , this is certainly true , and plainly manifest ; but now to shew what a deceiver is , and what it is to be deceived , and who it is that are deceived . first , that is a deceiver , that person , that spirit , or that thing , that leadeth , or inticeth the minds of people into something , to do , or practise , or speak something which the lord by his spirit doth not lead to . i say , that which leads the creature to take up a joy , or a delight , or a happiness in something of this world which is under the sun , to place confidence or felicity in such a thing ; that which thus leadeth or draweth the mind , whether it be person , or spirit , it is a deceiver , and deceiveth the soul ; and he , or they that doth follow this , and give up themselves into the obedience of it , to do , or speak something that is contrary to god , or which his spirit doth not lead unto , nor guide in , this person is deceived of the presence of the lord , and of the comfort , and joy , and happiness that is in him , and hath pleasure , and joy in something of the creation that is not of him , but besides him , and this person is deceived , and in deceit , who hath placed a joy , and happinesse , and confidence in some creature or thing that is not perfectly the lord ; and another spirit besides the spirit of the lord , hath seated its self in the heart , and taken possession of the mind , and the mind and heart is thereby captivated by that way , in the works and pleasures of this world ; and this is a deceived estate ; and thus much of a deceiver , and a deceiving in the ground , in that declared . but now you that are crying one to another , be not deceived , be not deceived ; and you not such as are deceived already , and that lyes wallowing in the deceit , and vanity , and evil of this world ? for while sin hath power over you , and that spirit that is not of god doth lead you , you are deceived ; and thus it is with you , being unchanged and unrenewed in mind and heart ; are not you deceived ? for you want the feeling of the presence , and of the comfort of the lord god , and you are deceived of that , for that you have not , and another thing possesseth your mind , the joy and pleasure of this world , and in your exercise spiritual and temporal , the spirit that is of this world doth lead you , and guide you , the spirit of unrighteousnesse that leadeth contrary to him ; and can you be otherwayes deceived , or more deceived ? for you are without god a ready , and wants his peace , and the inheritance of life eternal that is in him , you want the possession thereof , and you are following dead idols and vanities which steals away your mind , whereby it is manifest that you are deceived ; for all people upon the earth that are not led by the spirit into all truth , that hath not received the promise of the father , they are all deceived , and cannot be more deceived then they are ; and so is the cry in general among people , if any one forsake and deny their way of worship and religion , and profession , be it of what manner and nature , soever , presently there is a cry , ( chiefly by the priests ) take heed you be not deceived , and you are in heresie and error , and such like : thus have the papists cryed against them that have dissented from them , and the prelates cryed the same , and now you cry the same to them that dissent from you ; but your zeal is not so much against heresie and error , simply so , as it is to have your own sect and worship upheld , and against them that doth dissent from you ; and it hath been antichrists way since the apostacy , since the days of the apostles , to cry heresie , and error , and you are deceived , to all that did decline and dissent from him ; for you may read in the scriptures , power was given to the beast to compell all to worship him , and all that would not , he made war against , and had power to kill them . and thus have the papists done , warred against them that denyed their church ; and thus did the prelates , and thus do you , your cry is , heresie , and error , and they are deceived who do forsake your church , and your ministry ; and this cry have you learned of your fore-fathers , the romish church . but cease all sorts of people to cry that others are deceived , and that others are in error , and see how your selves are led with the spirit of unrighteousness , and blindness , and ignorance , and a cloud of error is over you , and between you and the son of god , who is appearing now in majesty and renown , to exalt his name over all the earth ; and antichrists way you have been in , who would have all to bow under his power , unto his worship ; but now the eyes of people are opened , and life , and righteousness , and truth it self is sprung forth over all the clouds of darkness and error . your worship is to the unknown god , and him you ignorantly worship after the traditions of men , and not after the commandments of god , for the tradition of the fathers is seated in you above the witness , and blinds the eye , and quencheth the spirit ; your old customs , traditions and forms , and your exercise therein , feeds that part which is carnal , and answers that in others , and your worship which is out of the spirit of god , answers not the spirit of god in others , to convert any truly to the living god ; and the lord will destroy your worship , and confound it , and no more is the lord worshipped in steeplehouses , they are lest desolate of gods presence , and no more in dayes , and times , and things , but they that worship must be in the spirit changed by it , and led by it into the truth ; so when the lord doth open your eyes , you will see the worship of god to be another thing then you suppose it ; you cannot be educated naturally in the worship of god , nor learn it by traditions , for it stands onely in the spirit , and is taught by the spirit unto all them that are born of the spirit ; and who comes to be born of that , are the true worshippers of god , in which the father is well pleased . and as for your worship in steeplehouses , god hath no delight in , he savoureth it not , but it is an abomination to him , it is not pleasing to him , because you be out of his spirit , and worships after your own traditions , and not after his spirit ; and this worship hath stood all this long time of antichrist , while the whore and the beast hath ruled over nations , and so one tradition after another hath been brought in , and one false worship hath risen out of another , and what people hath had , it hath been by tradition , and not from the immediate spirit of god and so the true god hath not been worshipped in his spirit ; and now all the world hath been pleading for their traditions , and they be in respect above the commandments of god , among ye that worship in steeplehouses ; you are even mad against them that cryes against the steeplehouses , and pleads the antiquity of your worship , and of your traditions and ordinances , now they are ancient , even as ancient as since the false prophets and antichrist came in , and put on the sheeps clothing , but inwardly are wolves ; these killed the life , and slew the prophets , and they set up inventions of their own ; and your traditions and worships are as ancient as since power was given to the beast over kindreds & peoples ; & the lord god is bringing down your worship , the original of which , came up when antichrist went into the world , as you may read in iohn's epistle , and so you may plead antiquity , yet not as ancient as the true church is , for when the true churches were apostatized , then came up your worship , & your many traditions ; & this hath been while the woman hath been fled into the wilderness , & the manchild caught up to god , which when the woman returns again , your worship and ordinance will be overthrown , & the true worship again established , & liberty ; but first you must know the spirit to teach you , before you can worship in it , & the spirit must purifie your hearts , & make them clean , before you can offer to god an acceptable sacrifice ; for your sacrifices are not acceptable , but they are stained & polluted in the sight of the lord , who now hath beheld what you are a doing , & you are in that which his soul hath no pleasure in , & in the day of your visitation the witness in your consciences shall answer it ; so you are to know god by his spirit , before you can worship him ; the word of the lord must be felt in your hearts as a fire , & as a hammer , & you must be created a-new , & have another spirit , before ye can worship god . so all you false worshippers , you are called that you may return , & may come into the true worship , which is in the commandment of god , and not the traditions of men , and in that law written in the heart , is god known , who worketh mans salvation , and which leadeth in the true and perfect worship , of the true and living god , where the lord is all in all . therefore return , why will you dye and perish in your iniquities ? a lamentation is taken up for you , o! why will you perish through neglecting your own salvation ? come into the spirit , and into the truth , that you may worship god , and be accepted of him , who is now appeared in power and great glory , to gather his people to himself . this is to go abroad among all people who are worshipping in temples made with hands , & who are under this ministry , & are of this church aforementioned , that they may come to consider , and see the error of their way , of their worship , and of their ministry , and this is a visitation from the lord unto them all , by a friend unto all your souls . the end . the protestant religion vindicated, from the charge of singularity & novelty in a sermon preached before the king at white-hall, april the 2d 1680 / by john tillotson ... tillotson, john, 1630-1694. 1680 approx. 38 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-11 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a62578 wing t1214 estc r4634 11957722 ocm 11957722 51555 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a62578) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 51555) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 518:3) the protestant religion vindicated, from the charge of singularity & novelty in a sermon preached before the king at white-hall, april the 2d 1680 / by john tillotson ... tillotson, john, 1630-1694. 33, [1] p. printed for brabazon aylmer ..., and william rogers ..., london : 1680. running title: a sermon preached before the king. advertisement: p. [1] at end. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism -sermons. sermons, english -17th century. 2004-08 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-08 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-09 john latta sampled and proofread 2004-09 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the protestant religion vindicated , from the charge of singularity & novelty : in a sermon preached before the king at white-hall , april the 2d . 1680. by john tillotson , d. d. dean of canterbury , and chaplain in ordinary to his majesty . published by his majesties special command . london : printed for brabazon aylmer , at the three pigeons over-against the royal exchange in cornhil : and william rogers at the sun , over-against st. dunstan's church in fleetstreet . 1680. joshua xxiv . 15. if it seem evil unto you to serve the lord , chuse you this day whom you will serve . these are the words of joshua ; who , after he had brought the people of israel thorough many difficulties and hazards into the quiet possession of the promised land , like a good prince and father of his country was very sollicitous , before his death , to lay the firmest foundation he could devise of the future happiness and prosperity of that people in whose present settlement he had , by the blessing of god , been so successful an instrument . and because he knew no means so effectual to this end , as to confirm them in the religion and worship of the true god , who had by so remarkable and miraculous a providence planted them in that good land ; he summons the people together , and represents to them all those considerations that might engage them and their posterity for ever , to continue in the true religion . he tells them what god had already done for them , and what he had promised to do more , if they would be faithful to him : and on the other hand , what fearful calamities he had threatned , and would certainly bring upon them , in case they should transgress his covenant and go and serve other gods. and after many arguments to this purpose , he concludes with this earnest exhortation at the 14th verse , now therefore fear the lord , and serve him in sincerity and in truth , and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood , and in egypt ; and serve ye the lord. and to give the greater weight and force to this exhortation , he do's by a very eloquent kind of insinuation as it were once more set them at liberty , and leave them to their own election : it being the nature of man to stick more stedfastly to that which is not violently imposed , but is our own free and deliberate choice : and if it seem evil unto you to serve the lord , chuse you this day whom you will serve . which words offer to our consideration these following observations . 1. it is here supposed that a nation must be of some religion or other . joshua do's not put this to their choice , but takes it for granted . 2. that , though religion be a matter of choice , yet it is neither a thing indifferent in it self , nor to a good governour what religion his people are of . joshua do's not put it to them as if it were an indifferent matter whether they served god or idols ; he had sufficiently declared before which of these was to be preferred . 3. the true religion may have several prejudices and objections against it : if it seem evil unto you to serve the lord , intimating that upon some accounts , and to some persons , it may appear so . 4. that the true religion hath those real advantages on its side , that it may safely be referr'd to any considerate mans choice . and this seems to be the true reason why joshua refers it to them : not that he thought the thing indifferent , but because he was fully satisfied that the truth and goodness of the one above the other was so evident , that there was no danger that any prudent man should make a wrong choice , if it seem evil unto you to serve the lord , chuse you this day whom you will serve ; intimating , that the plain difference of the things in competition would direct them what to chuse . 5. the example of princes and governours hath a very great influence upon the people in matters of religion . this i collect from the context : and joshua was sensible of it ; and therefore though he firmly believed the true religion to have those advantages that would certainly recommend it to every impartial mans judgment , yet knowing that the multitud ▪ are easily imposed upon and led into error , he thought fit to encline and determine them by his own example , and by declaring his own peremptory resolution in the case , chuse you this day whom you will serve ; as for me , i and my house will serve the lord. laws are a good security to religion ; but the example of governours is a living law , which secretly over-rules the minds of men , and bends them to a compliance with it , — non sic inflectere sensus humanos edicta valent , ut vita regentis . the lives and actions of princes have usually a greater sway upon the minds of the people than their laws . all these observations are i think very natural , and very considerable . i shall not be able to speak to them all ; but shall proceed so far as the time and your patience will give me leave . first , it is here supposed that a nation must be of some religion or other . joshua do's not put it to their choice , whether they would worship any deity at all . that had been too wild and extravagant a supposition , and which it is likely in those days had never entered into any mans mind . but he takes it for granted that all people will be of some religion ; and then offers it to their consideration which they would pitch upon , chuse you this day whom you will serve , whether the gods which your fathers served , &c. religion is a thing to which men are not only formed by education and custom , but , as tully says , quo omnes duce naturâ vehimur , it is that to which we are all carried by a natural inclination : which is the true reason why some religion or other hath so universally prevailed in all ages and places of the world . the temporal felicity of men , and the ends of government can very hardly , if at all , be attained without religion . take away this , and all obligations of conscience cease : and where there is no obligation of conscience , all security of truth and justice and mutual confidence among men is at an end . for why should i repose confidence in that man , why should i take his word , or believe his promise , or put any of my interests and concernments into his power who hath no other restraint upon him but that of humane laws ; and is at liberty in his own mind and principles to do whatever he judgeth to be expedient for his interest , provided he can but do it without danger to himself ? so that declared atheism and insidelity doth justly bring men under a jealousie and suspition with all mankind : and every wise man hath reason to be upon his guard against those from whom he hath no cause to expect more justice and truth and equity in their dealings than he can compel them to by the mere dint and force of laws . for by declaring themselves free from all other obligations they give us fair warning what we are to expect at their hands , and how far we may trust them . religion is the strongest band of humane society ; and god so necessary to the welfare and happiness of mankind , as if the being of god himself had been purposely designed and contrived for no other end but the benefit and advantage of men : so that very well may it be taken for granted , that a nation must be of some religion or other . secondly , though religion be a matter of our choice , yet it is neither a thing indifferent in it self , nor to a good governour , what religion his people are of . notwithstanding the supposition of the text , joshua doth not leave them at liberty whether they will serve god or idols ; but by a very rhetorical scheme of speech endeavours to engage them more firmly to the worship of the true god. to countenance and support the true religion , and to take care that the people be instructed in it , and that none be permitted to debauch and seduce men from it , properly belongs to the civil magistrate . this power the kings of israel always exercised , not only with allowance , but with great approbation and commendation from god himself . and the case is not altered since christianity : the better the religion is , the better it deserves the countenance and support of the civil authority . and this power of the civil magistrate in matters of religion was never called in question , but by the enthusiasts of these later times : and yet among these , every father and master of a family claims this power over his children and servants , at the same time that they deny it to the magistrate over his subjects . but i would fain know where the difference lyes . hath a master of a family more power over those under his government than the magistrate hath ? no man ever pretended it : nay , so far is it from that , that the natural authority of a father may be , and often is , limited and restrained by the laws of the civil magistrate . and why then may not a magistrate exercise the same power over his subjects in matters of religion , which every master challengeth to himself in his own family , that is , to establish the true worship of god in such manner and with such circumstances as he thinks best , and to permit none to affront it , or to seduce from it those that are under his care . and to prevent all misunderstandings in this matter , i do not hereby ascribe any thing to the magistrate that can possibly give him any pretence of right to reject gods true religion , or to declare what he pleases to be so , and what books he pleases to be canonical and the word of god ; and consequently to make a false religion so currant by the stamp of his authority , as to oblige his subjects to the profession of it : because he who acknowledgeth himself to derive all his authority from god , can pretend to none against him. but if a false religion be established by law , the case here is the same as in all other laws that are sinful in the matter of them , but yet made by a lawful authority ; in this case the subject is not bound to profess a false religion , but patiently to suffer for the constant profession of the true . and to speak freely in this matter , i cannot think ( till i be better inform'd , which i am always ready to be ) that any pretence of conscience warrants any man , that is not extraordinarily commission'd as the apostles and first publishers of the gospel were , and cannot justifie that commission by miracles as they did , to affront the establish'd religion of a nation ( though it be false ) and openly to draw men off from the profession of it in contempt of the magistrate and the law : all that persons of a different religion can in such a case reasonably pretend to , is to enjoy the private liberty and exercise of their own conscience and religion ; for which they ought to be very thankful , and to forbear the open making of proselytes to their own religion , ( though they be never so sure that they are in the right ) till they have either an extraordinary commission from god to that purpose , or the providence of god make way for it by the permission of the magistrate . and that they are guilty however of gross hypocrisie who pretend a further obligation of conscience in this matter , i shall give this plain demonstration , which relies upon concessions generally made on all hands , and by all parties . no protestant ( that i know of ) holds himself obliged to go and preach up his religion and make converts in spain or italy : nor do either the protestant ministers or popish priests think themselves bound in conscience to preach the gospel in turky , to convert the mahometans . and what is the reason ? because of the severity of the inquisition in popish countreys , and of the laws in turky . but doth the danger then alter the obligation of conscience ? no certainly ; but it makes men throw off the false pretence and disguise of it : but where there is a real obligation of conscience , danger should not deter men from their duty , as it did not the apostles : which shews their case to be different from ours , and that probably this matter was stated right at first . so that whatever is pretended , this is certain , that the priests and jesuits of the church of rome have in truth no more obligation of conscience to make converts here in england than in sueden or turky ; where it seems the evident danger of the attempt hath for these many years given them a perfect discharge from their duty in this particular . i shall joyn the third and fourth observations together . that though the true religion may have several prejudices and objections against it , yet upon examination there will be found those real advantages on its side , that it may safely be referred to any considerate mans choice : if it seem evil unto you to serve the lord , chuse you this day whom you will serve . if it seem evil unto you , intimating that to some persons and upon some accounts it may appear so . but when the matter is truly represented , the choice is not difficult , nor requires any long deliberation , chuse you this day whom you will serve . let but the cause be fully and impartially heard , and a wise man may determine himself upon the spot , and give his verdict without ever going from the bar. the true religion hath always layen under some prejudices with partial and inconsiderate men ; which commonly spring from one of these two causes , either the prepossessions of a contrary religion , or the contrariety of the true religion to the vicious inclinations and practises of men , which usually lyes at the bottom of all prejudice against religion . religion is an enemy to mens beloved lusts , and therefore they are enemies to religion . i begin with the first , which is as much as i shall be able to compass at this time . i. the prepossessions of a false religion ; which commonly pretends two advantages on its side , antiquity and universality ; and is wont to object to the true religion novelty and singularity . and both these are intimated both before and after the text : ●ut away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood , and in egypt : and chuse you this day whom you will serve , whether the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood , or the gods of the amorites in whose land ye dwell . idolatry was the religion of their fathers , and had spread it self over the greatest and most ancient nations of the world , and the most famous for learning and arts , the chaldeans and egyptians ; and was the religion of the amorites and the nations round about them . so that joshua represents the heathen religion with all its strength and advantage , and do's not dissemble its confident pretence to antiquity and universality , whereby they would also insinuate the novelty and singularity of the worship of the god of israel . and it is very well worthy our observation , that one or both of these have always been the exceptions of false religions ( especially of idolatry and superstition ) against the true religion . the ancient idolaters of the world pretended their religion to be ancient and universal , that their fathers served these gods , and that the worship of the god of israel was a plain innovation upon the ancient and catholick religion of the world , and that the very first rise and original of it was within the memory of their fathers ; and no doubt they were almost perpetually upon the jews with that pert question , where was your religion before abraham ? and telling them , that it was the religion of a very small part and corner of the world , confined within a little territory : but the great nations of the world , the egyptians and chaldeans , famous for all kind of knowledg and wisdom , and indeed all the nations round about them , worshipped other gods : and therefore it was an intolerable arrogance and singularity in them , to condemn their fathers and all the world , to be of a religion different from all other nations , and hereby to separate themselves and make a schisme from the rest of mankind . and when the gospel appeared in the world , which the apostle to the hebrews ( to prevent the scandal of that word ) calls the time of reformation ; the jews and heathen still renewed the same objections against christianity . the jews urged against it , not the ancient scriptures and the true word of god , but that which they pretended to be of much greater authority , the unwritten word , the ancient and constant traditions of their church ; and branded this new religion with the name of heresie , after the way ( saith st. paul ) that you call heresy , so worship i the god of my fathers ; believing all things that are written in the law , and in the prophets . by which we see , that they of the church of rome were not the first who called it heresy to reject human traditions , and to make the scripture the rule of faith : this was done long before by their reverend predecessors , the scribes and pharisees . and the gentiles , they pretended against it both antiquity and universality , the constant belief and practice of all ages , and almost all places of the world ; sequimur majores nostros qui feliciter secuti sunt suos , says symmachus : we follow our fore-fathers , who happily followed theirs : but you bring in a new religion never known nor heard of in the world before . and when the christian religion was most miserably depraved and corrupted , in that dismal night of ignorance which overspred these western parts of the world about the ninth and tenth centuries ; and many pernicious doctrines and superstitious practices were introduced , to the woful defacing of the christian religion , and making it quite another thing from what our saviour had left it ; and these corruptions and abuses had continued for several ages : no sooner was a reformation attempted , but the church of rome make the same outcry of novelty and singularity : and though we have substantially answered it a thousand times , yet we cannot obtain of them to forbear that thread-bare question , where was your religion before luther ? i shall therefore apply my self to answer these two exceptions with all the brevity and clearness i can : and i doubt not to make it appear , that as to the point of universality ( though that be no wise necessary to justify the truth of any religion ) ours is not inferior to theirs ; if we take in the christians of all ages , and of all parts of the world : and as to the point of antiquity , that our faith and the doctrines of our religion have clearly the advantage of theirs ; all our faith being unquestionable ancient , their 's not so . 1. as to the point of universality ; which they of the church of rome , i know not for what reason , will needs make an inseparable property and mark of the true church . and they never flout at the protestant religion with so good a grace among the ignorant people , as when they are bragging of their numbers , and despising poor protestancy because embraced by so few . this pestilent northern heresy ( as of late they scornfully call it ) entertained it seems only in this cold and cloudy corner of the world , by a company of dull stupid people , that can neither penetrate into the proofs nor the possibility of transubstantiation ; whereas to the more refined southern wits all these difficult and obscure points are as clear as their sun at noon-day . but to speak to the thing it self . if number be necessary to prove the truth and goodness of any religion , ours upon enquiry will be found not so inconsiderable as our adversaries would make it . those of the reformed religion , according to the most exact calculations that have been made by learned men , being esteemed not much unequal in number to those of the romish persuasion . but then if we take in the ancient christian church , whose faith was the same with ours ; and other christian churches at this day , which all together are vastly greater and more numerous than the roman church , and which agree with us , several of them in very considerable doctrines and practices in dispute between us and the church of rome , and all of them agree in disclaiming that fundamental point and main hinge of the roman religion ( as bellarmine calls it ) i mean the supremacy of the bishop of rome over all christians and churches in the world ; then the number on our side will be much greater than on theirs . but we will not stand upon this advantage with them . suppose we were by much the fewer . so hath the true church of god often been , without any the least prejudice to the truth of their religion . what think we of the church in abraham's time , which for ought we know was confined to one family , and one small kingdom , that of melchisedec king of salem ? what think we of it in moses his time , when it was confined to one people wandering in a wilderness ? what of it in elijah's time , when besides the two tribes that worshipped at jerusalem there were in the other ten but seven thousand that had not bowed their knee to baal ? what in our saviour's time , when the whole christian church consisted of twelve apostles , and seventy disciples , and some few followers beside ? how would bellarmine have despised this little flock , because it wanted one or two of his goodliest marks of the true church , universality and splendor ? and what think we of the christian church in the height of arrianism and pelagianism , when a great part of christendom was over-run with these errors , and the number of the orthodox was inconsiderable in comparison of the hereticks ? but what need i to urge these instances ? as if the truth of a religion were to be estimated and carried by the major vote ; which as it can be an argument to none but fools , so i dare say no honest and wise man ever made use of it for a solid proof of the truth and goodness of any church or religion . if multitudes be an argument that men are in the right , in vain then hath the scripture said , thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil : for if this argument be of any force , the greater number never go wrong . 2. as to the point of antiquity . this is not always a certain mark of the true religion . for surely there was a time when christianity began , and was a new profession ; and then both judaism and paganism had certainly the advantage of it in point of antiquity . but the proper question in this case is , which is the true ancient christian faith , that of the church of rome , or ours ? and to make this matter plain it is to be considered , that a great part of the roman faith is the same with ours ; as , namely , the articles of the apostles creed , as explained by the first four general councils . and these make up our whole faith , so far as concerns matters of meer and simple belief , that are of absolute necessity to salvation . and in this faith of ours there is nothing wanting that can be shewn in any ancient creed of the christian church . and thus far our faith and theirs of the roman church are undoubtedly of equal antiquity , that is , as ancient as christianity it self . all the question is , as to the matters in difference between us . the principal whereof are the twelve articles of the creed of pope pius the iv , concerning the sacrifice of the mass , transubstantiation , the communion in one kind only , purgatory , &c. not one of which is to be found in any ancient creed or confession of faith generally allowed in the christian church . the antiquity of these we deny , and affirm them to be innovations ; and have particularly proved them to be so , not only to the answering , but almost to the silencing of our adversaries . and as for the negative articles of the protestant religion , in opposition to the errors and corruptions of the romish faith , these are by accident become a part of our faith and religion , occasioned by their errors ; as the renouncing of the doctrines of arrianism became part of the catholick religion , after the rise of that heresy . so that the case is plainly this ; we believe and teach all that is contained in the creeds of the ancient christian church , and was by them esteemed necessary to salvation : and this is our religion . but now the church of rome hath innovated in the christian religion , and made several additions to it , and greatly corrupted it both in the doctrines and practices of it : and these additions and corruptions are their religion , as it is distinct from ours ; and both because they are corruptions and novelties we have rejected them ; and our rejection of these is our reformation . and our reformation we grant ( if this will do them any good ) not to be so ancient as their corruptions : all reformation necessarily supposing corruptions and errors to have been before it . and now we are at a little better leisure to answer that captious question of theirs , where was your religion before luther ? where-ever christianity was ; in some places more pure , in others more corrupted ; but especially in these western parts of christendom overgrown for several ages with manifold errors and corruptions , which the reformation hath happily cut off , and cast away . so that though our reformation was as late as luther , our religion is as ancient as christianity it self . for when the additions which the church of rome hath made to the ancient christian faith , and their innovations in practice are pared off , that which remains of their religion is ours ; and this they cannot deny to be every tittle of it the ancient christianity . and what other answer than this could the jews have given to the like question , if it had been put to them by the ancient idolaters of the world , where was your religion before abraham ? but the very same in substance which we now give to the church of rome ? that for many ages the worship of the one true god had bin corrupted , and the worship of idols had prevailed in a great part of the world ; that abraham was raised up by god to reform religion , and to reduce the worship of god to its first institution ; in the doing whereof he necessarily separated himself and his family from the communion of those idolaters . so that though the reformation which abraham began was new , yet his religion was truly ancient , as old as that of noah , and enoch , and adam . which is the same in substance that we say , and with the same and equal reason . and if they will still complain of the newness of our reformation , so do we too , and are heartily sorry it began no sooner ; but however better late than never . besides , it ought to be considered , that this objection of novelty lies against all reformation whatsoever , though never so necessary , and though things be never so much amiss : and it is in effect to say , that if things be once bad , they must never be better , but must always remain as they are ; for they cannot be better without being reformed , and a reformation must begin sometime , and when ever it begins it is certainly new . so that if a real reformation be made , the thing justifies it self ; and no objection of novelty ought to take place against that which upon all accounts was so fit and necessary to be done . and if they of the church of rome would speak but their minds out in this matter , they are not so much displeased at the reformation which we have made because it is new , as because it is a reformation . it was the humour of babylon of old ( as the propbet tells us ) that she would not be healed ; and this is still the temper of the church of rome , they hate to be reformed , and rather than acknowledge themselves to have been once in an error , they will continue in it for ever . and this is that which at first made , and still continues the breach and separation between us ; of which we are no wise guilty who have only reform'd what was amiss , but they who obstinately persist in their errors , and will needs impose them upon us , and not let us be of their communion unless we will say they are no errors . ii. the other prejudice against the true religion is , the contrariety of it to the vicious inclinations and practices of men. it is too heavy a yoke , and lays too great a restraint upon humane nature . and this is that which in truth lies at the bottom of all objections against religion , men love darkness rather than light , because their deeds are evil . but this argument will require a discourse by it self , and therefore i shall not now enter upon it ; only crave your patience a little longer whilst i make some reflections upon what hath been already delivered . you see what are the exceptions which idolatry and superstition have always made , and do at this day still make , against the true religion ; and how slight and insignificant they are . but do we then charge the church of rome with idolatry ? our church most certainly does so , and hath always done it from the beginning of the reformation ; in her homilies , and liturgy , and canons , and in the writings of her best and ablest champions . and though i have , as impartially as i could , consider'd what hath been said on both sides in this controversy ; yet i must confess i could never yet see any tolerable defence made by them against this heavy charge . and they themselves acknowledg themselves to be greatly under the suspicion of it , by saying ( as cardinal perron and others do ) that the primitive christians for some ages did neither worship images , nor pray to saints , for fear of being thought to approach too near the heathen idolatry : and which is yet more , divers of their most learned men do confess , that if transubstantiation be not true , they are as gross idolaters as any in the world. and i hope they do not expect it from us , that in complement to them , and to acquit them from the charge of idolatry , we should presently deny our senses , and believe transubstantiation ; and if we do not believe this , they grant we have reason to charge them with idolatry . but we own them to be a true church ; which they cannot be , if they be guilty of idolatry : this they often urge us withal , and there seems at first sight to be something in it : and for that reason i shall endeavour to give so clear and satisfactory an answer to it , as that we may never more be troubled with it . the truth is , we would fain hope , because they still retain the essentials of christianity , and profess to believe all the articles of the christian faith , that notwithstanding their corruptions they may still retain the true essence of a church : as a man may be truly and really a man , though he have the plague upon him ; and for that reason be fit to be avoided by all that wish well to themselves : but if this will not do , we cannot help it . therefore to push the matter home , are they sure that this is a firm and good consequence , that if they be idolaters , they cannot be a true church ? then let them look to it . it is they , i take it , that are concerned to prove themselves a true church , and not we to prove it for them . and if they will not understand it of themselves , it is fit they should be told that there is a great difference between concessions of charity and of necessity , and that a very different use ought to be made of them . we are willing to think the best of them ; but if they dislike our charity in this point , nothing against the hair : if they will forgive us this injury , we will not offend them any more : but rather than have any further difference with them about this matter , we will for quietness sake compound it thus ; that till they can clearly acquit themselves from being idolaters , they shall never more against their wills be esteemed a true church . and now to draw to a conclusion . if it seem evil unto you to serve the lord , and to worship him only ; to pray to him alone , and that only in the name and mediation of jesus christ , as he hath given us commandment ; because there is but one god , and one mediator between god and man , the man christ jesus . if it seem evil unto you , to have the liberty to serve god in a language you can understand ; and to have the free use of the holy scriptures , which are able to make men wise unto salvation ; and to have the sacraments of our religion entirely administred to us , as our lord did institute and appoint . and on the other hand , if it seem good to us , to put our necks once more under that yoke , which our fathers were not able to bear : if it be really a preferment to a prince to hold the pope's stirrup , and a privilege to be deposed by him at his pleasure , and a courtesy to be kill'd at his command : if to pray without understanding , and to obey without reason , and to believe against sense ; if ignorance , and implicit faith , and an inquisition be in good earnest such charming and desirable things : then welcome popery ; which , wherever thou comest , dost infallibly bring all these wonderful privileges and blessings along with thee . but the question is not now about the choice , but the change of our religion , after we have been so long settled in the quiet possession and enjoyment of it . men are very loth to change even a false religion . hath a nation changed their gods , which yet are no gods ? and surely there is much more reason why we should be tenacious of the truth , and hold fast that which is good . we have the best religion in the world , the very same which the son of god revealed , which the apostles planted , and confirmed by miracles , and which the noble army of martyrs sealed with their blood : and we have retrench'd from it all false doctrines and superstitious practices which have been added since . and i think we may without immodesty say , that upon the plain square of scripture and reason , of the tradition and practice of the first and best ages of the christian church , we have fully justified our religion , and made it evident to the world that our adversaries are put to very hard shifts , and upon a perpetual disadvantage in the defence of theirs . i wish it were as easy for us to justify our lives as our religion . i do not mean in comparison of our adversaries ( for that , as bad as we are , i hope we are yet able to do ) but in comparison of the rules of our holy religion , from which we are infinitely swerv'd ; which i would to god we all seriously consider and lay to heart : i say , in comparison of the rules of our holy religion , which teach us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts , and to live soberly , and righteously , and godly in this present world , in expectation of the blessed hope , and the glorious appearance of the great god , and our saviour jesus christ ; to whom with the father , and the holy ghost , &c. finis . advertisement . there is newly published a learned treatise of the pope's supremacy : to which is added , a discourse concerning the unity of the church . in quarto . by isaac barrow , d. d. late master of trinity-college in cambridg , and one of his majesty's chaplains in ordinary . printed for brabazon aylmer , at the three pigeons over against the royal-exchange in cornhil . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a62578-e230 i. ii. iii. & iv. jer. 51. 9. raree show, or, the true protestant procession a new ballad to the tune of the northumberland man. 1681 approx. 5 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 2 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a33886 wing r280b wing c5226a_incorrect wing c5226b_incorrect estc r29641 99895787 99895787 46603 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a33886) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 46603) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1438:15; 2357:23) raree show, or, the true protestant procession a new ballad to the tune of the northumberland man. colledge, stephen, 1635?-1681, attributed name. 1 sheet ([2] p.) printed for a.b., [london] : 1681. sometimes attributed to stephen colledge. cf. nuc; wing. verse "this is the cabal of some protestant lords (had,". item identified on umi microfilm as c5226b (entry cancelled in wing 2nd ed.). reproduction of originals in: harvard university library; folger shakespeare library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism -humor -early works to 1800. popish plot, 1678 -humor -early works to 1800. political satire, english -early works to 1800. 2006-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-07 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-09 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2006-09 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion raree show or the true protestant procession . a new ballad to the tune of the northumberland man. 1. this is the cabal of some prot●stant lords a forging the turne that not long since they had , here w — ● sitteth and searcheth records ▪ to find flaws in good statutes , & varnish the bad . 2. this is the lord tony that slyly sits here who to sham and contrive has never deny'd and rather then the good cause shou'd fall through his fear he 'l let out rebellion by broaching his side . 3. this is popular perkin that smirks and looks gay the women extols the spark up to the sky , none danceth with so great a grace , as they say , yet some body thinks that he capers too high . 4. here flourishing e — the tongue o' th gang vvith rhetorical artifice fancies fine things , first vainly composeth a taking harangue then fosters a villain in libelling kings . 5. here 's docter informant that ne'r wou'd stick out to traffick in oaths or tell a state-lye , observe how he firks all the jesuits about , first blaws on a beuk , and so papists god b — y. 6. here 's wilmore that 's troubl'd with scruples & stings his citizens conscience is nice and demure , a traytor 's indicted for treasonable things , but he tells you t is false , he 's a protestant sure . 7. these are some sage cytizens that you see there , vvho out of their zeal all our rights to maintain and to keep out all slavery , have taken a care to put up in the streets two posts and a chain . 8. the seare some apprentices that still do retain some tenets their masters approve and allows , they come to direct a wise monarch to reign instead of sweeping their shop and cleaning of shooes . 9. this is the committee where greivance is scann'd which remonstrates the danger that threatens the state good service is here by suspicion trapan'd and allegiance is reckon'd malignancy streight . 10. her 's the synod of saints that will sometimes refresh the failings of nature with means of their own . they 'l preach you the mortification of flesh with eyes up to heaven and breeches let down . 11. these are the cabal of the covenantiers that think they maintain the religion the best by pulling down churches and their overseers and routing the defender of faith with the rest . 12. these are the remains of the levelling rump that stink in the house and fresh commons annoy , and least the right james shou'd be turn'd up for trump they cry out , a court card will their gaming destroy . 13. that lumber of trumpery buzzing about are silly subscribers that come at first dash , to make up a large petitioning rout of link-boys and all such true protestant trash . 14. these there are the hucksters that treason retail , they 'l sell you a sheet with a penniworth in 't ; that 's courantier care that never will fail to scribble , whilst langly dares publish and print . 15. that 's the club of a pack of ingenious friends that made charles a scotch pedlar in the rare show , and i hope that our monarch to make them amends will give them a yard of st. johnstons or two , printed for a. b. 1681. questions propounded for resolution of unlearned protestants in matter of religion, to the doctours of the prelaticall pretended reformed church of england. spencer, john, 1601-1671. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a93670 of text r230353 in the english short title catalog (wing s4957). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 53 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 29 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a93670 wing s4957 estc r230353 99895991 99895991 153615 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a93670) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 153615) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2372:7) questions propounded for resolution of unlearned protestants in matter of religion, to the doctours of the prelaticall pretended reformed church of england. spencer, john, 1601-1671. [2], 11-63, [1] p. [s.n.], printed at paris, : 1657. the page numbering begins with number "11". by john spencer. reproduction of original in the newberry library, chicago, illinois. eng protestants -france -early works to 1800. protestantism -early works to 1800. a93670 r230353 (wing s4957). civilwar no questions propounded for resolution of unlearned protestants, in matter of religion, to the doctours of the prelaticall pretended reformed c spencer, john 1657 9047 4 10 0 0 0 0 15 c the rate of 15 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-06 pip willcox sampled and proofread 2007-06 pip willcox text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion questions propounded for resolution of unlearned protestants , in matter of religion , to the doctours of the prelaticall pretended reformed church of england . printed at paris , 1657. questions propounded for resolution of unlearned protestants , in matter of religion , to the doctours of the prelaticall pretended , reformed church of england . 1. quest . whither every christian is not obliged , to chuse the safest way , all things considered , to salvation ? 2. quest . whither that way , wherein both parties acknowledge , that unlearned men may have possibility of salvation , 1 though one of them say it be with difficulty and danger , if they look not well to the foundation , be not prudently to be judged more safe for the unlearned , then that which is esteemed safe by one only party , and that incomparably less in number , but by the other incomparably greater party , which equalizes the less in all respects requisite to gain credit and authority , is constantly held to be utterly void of all possibility of salvation , even for unlearned persons ? 3. quest . whither this be not the present case betwixt protestants and those of the roman church , according to the acknowledgement of the latest and learnedst of protestant authours ; they acknowledging the 2 said possibility of salvation for unlearned persons in the romane , and the romane doctours denying all possibility to unlearned protestants , so long as they remain willfully in the protestant religion ? 4. quest . whither all unlearned protestants , who are sufficiently informed of what is here said , are not quilty of a damnable neglect of their salvation , so long as they remain protestants , and refuse to be of the roman church ? 5. quest . whither a person , who is in quiet possession of any goods , titles , rights , or dignities , &c. retain not the right to all such goods , and is wrongfully deprived of them , so long as he neither confesses that he hath no right to them , nor is condemned by the clear sentence of any lawfull and competent judge , of sufficient authority to define against him , but still maintaine● his cause against his adversary , and gives at least probable answers to all that he alledges against him , and pleads to be restored to his ancient possession taken from him by force and violence ? and whither he , who thus violently took the possession from him , be not obliged in conscience to restore it to him again ? and whither he proceeds not unjustly , so long as he retains it from him ? 6. quest . whither this hath not been , within the last hundred and fifty years , and still is , the proceeding of protestants against the romane church , violently excluding her bishops , pastours , and people , from the quiet possession , of many hundred years continuance , of their doctrine , dignities , titles , governments , benefices , churches , possessions , and still retayning them , and refusing to restore them ; those of the romane church still claiming their right , and never having been condemned by any competent and lawfull judge , nor acknowledging themselves convinced to have obtained that possession wrongfully . 7. quest . whither the quiet possession of many ages , both of the eastern and western churches , in their unanimous consent of doctrine and practise , in most points of controversie betwixt them and protestants , be not a sufficient proof to justifie the said doctrine and practise ; till it be convinced clearly , evidently and undeniably , ( by reason or authority ) or lawfully condemned of errour ? so that it belongs to protestants , who are the aggressours , to convince their adversaries of errour , and not to those of the roman , or grecian churches , to prove their tenents by any other argument , then that of their quiet , ancient , and universall possession , though catholicks be upon the affirmative , and protestants upon the negative ; as he who quietly possesses the name , title , armes and lands of such , or such a familie , hath sufficiently proved , that he has right to them , and that they are truly his , till he either confesse , that the contrary is sufficiently proved , or that it be lawfully determined against him . 8. quest . whither it is not a most insolent madness ( as st. augustin . terms it ) or an insufferable height of pride , for any christian whatsoever to call in question , much more to censure and condemne as erroneous , that which all the visible churches in the world taught and practised ; and a manifest foolery , to follow any teachers , and give eare and belief to them , who contradict the universall practise and doctrine of the whole christian world ? 9. quest . whither the first was not done by the first authors of protestant religion ; and the second done , and still continued by their followers ? or if the first authours of protestant religion received those points of their doctrine from any visible church in the whole world which existed immediately before their relinquishing the roman doctrine , let that church be produced , and named . 10. quest . seeing protestants affirme , that the roman church is infected with errours in faith , which they pretend to have purged in their reformation , i demand that it be evidenced , when any of these pretended errours begun to be publickly taught & practised out of some approved authours of any age , who affirm , that the publick profession of the said errours begun in or about their time . for seeing they were publickly practised through all christendom , if that publick practise had ever begun in any age since the apostles , it must have been taken notice of : whereby their instances of consumption in the lungs , of a beard growing white , &c. are shewed to be nothing to the purpose ; because they are either wholly secret , or insensible , and no way publick and notorious , as these were . and seeing faith by s. paul . ephes. 4. v. 1. 2. is said to be one , and reckoned up with the unity of god and christ , and so must be perfectly , one , how protestants , and those of the roman church can properly be said to have one faith , when the the one believes , what the other disbelieves ? and as opinions contradicting one another cannot be said to be one opinion , how can faiths contradicting one another be said to be one faith ? neither is it enough to say , that they are one in that wherein they agree , for so they will be one only in part , or partially , and not absolutely and entirely : and as the least difference destroyes the perfect unitie of god & christ , so will it do that of faith ; and though my opinion agree with that of another in many things , but disagrees in many others from his , we can never be said absolutely ( as it must be in faith ) to be of the same , or one opinion . quest . 11. whither it be not a great argument , to induce any rationall indifferent man , to judge that the protestant authours are put to great straits , and to desperate acknowledgements , when being ashamed of the first refuge of their beginners , in flying for the defence of their succession to an invisible church ; and no less of the second , in alleadging for their predecessours and continuance of the visibilitie of their church , berengarius , the waldenses , albigenses , wicleffests , hussites , and other publickly condemned hereticks , they confess , that they have now no other means to save their visible succession , but by acknowledging , that they succeed to the church of rome , and other churches joyning with her against them in all the points of difference betwixt them , and her ; and so are enforced to acknowledge her , and all those who are united to her , to be true churches of christ , and consequently to hold no fundamentall errour at all ; & consequent to this , to acknowledge , that their first authours & churches , both in england and other countries , wronged the church of rome and those others insufferably , first , in condemning them of superstition , idolatrie , antichristianisme , &c. which are fundamentall errours in religion , and destructive of salvation . secondly upon this pretext in destroying , burning , and alienating to secular uses so many thousands of their churches , monasteries , towns , citties , castles , villages . thirdly in massacring and putting to cruell torments and death , so many priests and professours of the roman religion . fourthly in depriving their bishops and clergie-men of their respective church-governments , dignities , seas , benefices and churches , and setting up others , they yet living , in their places . fifthly in making it no less then high treason , ( which is yet in force ) either to be priests , or to communicate with them in many spirituall church offices and sacraments . sixthly in continuing to this day , in a violent detaining of their churches , benefices , dignities , and spirituall functions , from all those of the roman profession , and holding them in their own hands ; and all this , because they maintain certain pretended errours , which they now confess not to be fundamentall , nor destructive of salvation ; & consequently that those of the roman church have suffered , and still suffer all these intollerable injuries , for that which even these modern authors acknowledge to be no more then a veniall or small sin : for if it were mortall , it would destroy salvation , so long as one willfully continues in it ; which they affirm , it does not . further by this acknowledgement , these modern protestant authours must confess , that their former writers , who were of a contrarie mind , in charging the church of rome and the rest with her , of superstition , and idolatrie , &c. and all those , who then joyned with them , and all their modern churches and protesters , both without and within england , who at this day hold it as a point of their faith , to accuse the church of rome in the same manner , erre damnably against christian truth , and consequently are no true churches of christ . for it cannot be lesse then a damnable errour to make it a point of their faith , and religion , to condemne any one , much more all the visible churches of the west , nay and of the east too , and so of whole christendom , for nine hundred years together , of grievous superstition , when upon better examination , the doctours of the same protestant church are compelled by force of truth to confess , that those churches neither are , nor ever were guilty of any of those horrid errours , and at the most erre only venially and lightly ; which hinder them not , either to be 1 a true church of christ , or to obtain salvation , even while they most constantly and immoveably maintain them ; and accurse all who willfully contradict them , or condemne them as erroneous . and hence also it follows , that seing those modern protestant authours and their partie , communicate in prayer and sacraments , with the presbyterians and calvinists , who accuse the church of rome of idolatrie , &c. ( and so put it in fundamentall errour , ) and acknowledge themselves to make one church with them , must be guilty of deadly schisme by that communion and acknowledgement ; and consequently so long as they continue in that communion , are uncapable of salvation . quest . 12. whether it be not a great argument of securitie to those who either are of the roman church , or convert themselves to it , that her very adversaries after so many condemnations of her to hold most grievous , and damnable errours , dare not now accuse her to hold any errour destructive of salvation ; so that the belief of her doctrine in every point , their obedience to all her commands , the exercise of all her practises , their praying to saints , reverencing of holy images , adoring of christ as really and naturally present in the sacrament , &c. consist with salvation . and though some say , though they destroy not salvation , yet they are dangerous points , and practises , weakning the foundation , and endangering the destruction of it in continuance of time ; yet who sees not , that it is more secure to hold a religion , which makes the foundation only weak , by their adversaries confession , then to hold theirs , which the contrarie party most constantly affirms to destroy quite , & raise the foundation of religion , and to make salvation , not only hard & in danger , but utterly impossible , till it be deserted . quest . 13. whither it be a likely thing , that the chiefest of the pretended errours in the roman religion , contain any danger of loosing salvation , in maintaining them , seeing for this thousand years , by the common confession of protestants themselves , they have been universally believed and practised , as matters belonging to christian faith and dutie , both by the latin and greek church ; and so the belief and practise of them was the common way , wherein christians were saved ; which if it were dangerous , what other safe way was there , wherein christians might be saved ; & yet certainlie there was alwayes a safe way to heaven : and what likelyhood is there , that the safe way should be wholly unknown and unpractised for so many hundred years together , and the common known way , according to the full belief & setled perswasion of all the visible churches of christendom , should be dangerous and unsafe ? or what reason can be given , that the professours of the doctrine of the roman church , should be in an unsafe , or dangerous way , before protestants begun seeing they had none in those times , to shew them , that they were in danger . quest . 14 whither it have any shew of probabilitie , that the said pretended errours , though they raise not the foundation of christian faith ( as the late protestants confess ) yet they may in time endanger the raising and destruction of it , as they argue , seeing that after the universall belief of them , for a thousand years together , the foundation remains yet undestroyed and entire ? for if a thousand years continuance of them hath stood with the integritie of the foundation , what appearance is there , that they will ever cause , or induce the destruction of it ? quest . 15. further concerning this protestant distinction of errours in faith , fundamentall and not fundamentall , i demand first , what they understand by fundamentall errours ? for if they mean any nicetie in speculation , or theologicall discourse , it belongs not to the knowledge of the unlearned : either therefore they must understand by a fundamentall errour , such an errour in faith , as destroyes salvation howsoever that comes to pass , or they say nothing to the present purpose . this therefore supposed to be their meaning , i demand secondly a catalogue , & precise number of the fundamentall errours in faith , that is , how many , & which are those errours in faith , which destroy salvation ? for what helps it a christian to know , that there are such destructive and damnable errours , unless he know whether he hold any such errour himself , or no ? and how can he ever be certain of that , so long as he is ignorant , which are fundamentall errours , which not ? if this catalogue be refused , i demand at least some evident means , or marks , to distinguish errours in faith , destructive of salvation or damnable , from others consistent with salvation , or veniall : which is neither to deny any of the articles contained in the three creeds ( as some protestants have thought ; ) for one of them puts the procession of the holy ghost from the father and the son , the deniall of which they neither do , nor can hold to be a fundamentall errour , unless they affirm the grecian church to erre fundamentally , & so denie it to be a true church of christ ; which were quite against the said protestants , seeing they maintain the contrarie . nor is the creed of the apostles alone a sufficient rule to determine fully , which are fundamentall points , which not ; both because there are some things in it , which ( by reason of the lightness of the matter they contain , ) come not by far so near the radicall and primarie misteries of christian faith , as do many points controverted betwixt protestants and those of the roman church , and therefore cannot with any shew of truth be termed fundamentall by protestants , such as are the circumstances of time & persons , as that our saviour suffered under pontius pilate , and no other judge , that hee rose the third , and no other day , &c. and because some points , necessarie to the subsistence of christian faith according to protestants , are not expresly defined in that creed ; as that the holy scriptures are the divine word of god , which is the precise number of the books of canonicall scripture ; whither , there is any written word of god , or no ; or any sacraments , &c. so that a christian finds not all fundamentall points of faith set down expresly in the apostles creed . neither is the scripture a sufficient rule to know which are , which are not fundamentall points . for there are a thousand , nay a million of truths expressed in scriptures , which touch not immediately the foundation of faith , as protestants term it ; and no small number of points , according to them , fundamentall , which are not expressed in scripture , as the number of canonicall books , the entire incorrupt puritie of the originall , in any copie , or copies , which is come to the hands of protestants , &c. which in their principles are such points of faith , that true faith , and consequently salvation , cannot be obtained without them . for if sole scripture , ( as they affirme ) be the rule of faith , and all that is in scripture is to be believed , and nothing to be believed , but what is in scripture , or evidently deduced from it , seeing faith is necessarie to salvation , the determinate belief of all that is true scripture , from which only ( they say ) the true points of faith are drawn , must be necessarie to salvation , and so a fundamentall point of faith . thirdly , i demand , how any christian can affirm , that the denyall of any point of faith whatsoever , being sufficiently propounded as such , is consistent with salvation , seeing all such denyalls , or disbeliefs , include this damnable malice , of attributing falsity to that which is revealed by god himself , as all points of faith are , how small so ever the matter be , which is revealed in them ; which appears evidently in this example . i suppose that this sentence of scripture , tertiâ die resurget , he shall rise again the third day , is sufficiently propounded to any one , as a point and article of christian faith , as well according to the substance resurget , that our saviour should rise again , ( which protestants grant to be a fundamentall point ) as the circumstance of time , tertia die , the third day . now suppose that some christian , to whom this whole sentence of scripture is sufficiently propounded , should firmely believe the substance , or mysterie of the resurrection , because he esteems it to be a fundamentall point , but should disbelieve the precise circumstance of time , that it was only upon the third , and no other day , i demand seeing both the one and the other is propounded equally , as expresly contained in that sentence of holy scripture , whither he that disbelieves that the resurrection happened upon the third day , and dyes in that belief , can be saved ? quest . 16. i demand farther , that seeing s. paul , hebr. 11. v. 1. says , that faith is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the substance , or ground ( as the protestant english bible of anno 1648. hath it ) of things hoped for , and is reckoned up by the same apostle hebr. 6. v. 1. 2. amongst those things , which are called by him basis , the foundation , one of them being faith to god . and the apostle ephes. 2. v. 20. sayes we are built {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets , which now , according to protestants , can be nothing else save the writings of the prophets and apostles in holy scripture , i demand , whither to say that some points of faith are not fundamentall , or belonging to the foundation , be not as contrarie to common sense , as to say , that some stone in the foundation of a building belongs not to the foundation , or is not fundamentall ? quest . 33. further i demand , that seeing s. paul affirms in the fore cited place , hebrews the 6. vers. 2. that laying on of hands amongst many other points , is the foundation ; how protestants can deny , that ( seeing the laying on of hands is disbelieved and rejected by them in the sacrament of confirmation , and by some in the administration of holy orders , as a popish superstition ) that such protestants differre fundamentally , or in the foundation from those of the roman church ? or , if the laying on of hands belong to the foundation , as s. paul here affirmed , why anointing with oyle , mentioned by s. iames , should not also be a fundamentall point ? or why , laying on of hands ( being only , as protestants esteem it , a ceremonie not sacramentall ) should be here termed the foundatìon and the substance of the eucharist , which all hold to be sacramentall , and more then a meere ceremonie , should not be fundamentall ? or lastly , what reason there is to say , that laying on of hands hath a nearer connexion to the radicall and prime mysteries of our faith , then many other points controverted betwixt protestants and those of the roman church ? it is yet further demanded , seeing protestants affirme , that the whole visible catholick church may erre in the definition of points of faith not fundamentall ; and seeing they affirm , that the points in difference betwixt us , are not fundamentall , and so not necessarie to salvation ; & lastly . seeing they affirm also , that the scriptures may be obscure in points not necessarie to salvation , by what means can they ever think to convince the roman church of errour in these points of difference betwixt them and her ? quest . 19. seeing also , that every point of faith is a divine truth proceeding from the revelation of god , and to be believed ( as i suppose for the present with the common consent of protestants ) with an infallible assent of faith , if the universall visible church may erre , and the scriptures may be obscure as is generally affirmed by our adversaries in points of faith not fundamentall , how shall such points as are in controversie betwixt us , and are accounted by protestants not fundamentall , or not necessarie to salvation , be discerned to be points of faith ? or how agreed this modern protestant doctrine of no difference betwixt us in points necessary to salvation , with that of their beginners , and more ancient predecessours , who taught that the scriptures were clear only in all points necessary to salvation , and upon that pretext , both affirmed that our doctrin's against them , were clearly convinced of falshood by the authority of sole scripture , and allowed all lay people promiscuously to read them , as being clear to them in all the points controversed betwixt us ? for this manifestly supses , that they were held by those beginners to be points of faith necessary to salvation , or fundamentalls : or what means is there to believe them as points of faith ; seeing they can never be believed infallibly upon the churches authoritie by reason of her pretended fallibilitie in them ; nor expresly for the authoritie of scripture by reason of its obscurity in the delivery of them , according to the principles of protestants ? quest . 20. i demand further , if the whole visible church may erre , in the definition of any point of faith whatsoever , that errour must either proceed from ignorance & want of light , or from malice and want of vertue or goodness : not the second , for then the whole visible church of christ should not be sancta , holy , as it is believed to be in our creed , and described in the scriptures , but should become a harlot & abominable willfull deceiver of the world , and a seducer of nations in teaching , contrarie to the known truth : not the first , for if she could erre out of ignorance , to what purpose do protestants appeal to her determination in a lawfull generall councell , in any of the points in difference betwixt them and those of the roman church , seeing she may through ignorance erre in the determination of them , as being not fundamentall , according to them . neither can it be said , that , notwithstanding the whole visible churches fallibility in points not fundamentall , nay though it should actually erre , and that errour should be evidently discovered , yet even those who had thus evidently discovered the said errours , were to conform themselves to those erroneous definitions of a generall councell . for if this conformity be understood of an internall conformity in judgement , it is wholly impossible , seeing that were to judge the same thing to be true , and not true , at the same time , and to judge against an evident knowledge : and if it be understood of an externall conformity and profession only , it were manifestly impious and high hipocrisie , in resisting the known truth , and professing to believe that as a divine truth revealed by almighty god , which they evidently know to be a most false errour in faith . secondly , if one were to subscribe & externally to conform himself to the definitions of lawfull generall councells , which one perswades himself , he evidently knows to be erroneous , till another councell be assembled to correct them , why did not protestants afford this externall conformity to the definitions of the generall councell of florence , of lateran , and to the second councell of nice , ( to omit others ) till some other lawfull generall councell came to correct their pretended errours , they having no other reason to reject the authority of the said councells , then that they define many things against the protestant doctrine . thirdly , seeing it was never yet seen , nor can be ever made manifest , that any lawfull generall councell revoked any definition in matter of faith , of any former lawfull generall councell , what hope is there , that they shall now begin to do , what was never done before them ? fourthly , if it were supposed , that any such revocatorie definition should issue from them , that party , whose doctrine should be condemned by such revocations , would accuse that councell of errour , as much as the contrary party accused the former councell of errour in defining against them ; and so the controversie would remain as indetermined as it was before : neither would it be possible ever to determine it fully by a generall councell : for the party condemned would still expect another councell to revoke that definition ; which seems to him evidently erroneous ; and so there would be no end of new determinations and revocations in infinitum . yet further , seeing lawfull generall councells do not only oblige , even under pain of anathema , or being accursed and excommunicated , all christians to believe and profess the doctrine which they teach them , not only to be true and free from errour , but to be divine truth , revealed by god himself ; if they should erre in any such definition , they must make god the authour of errour and untruth , which quite destroyes the veracity of god , and consequently overthrows the main and primary foundation of christian faith , and therefore must necessarily be held to include a fundamentall errour : so impossible and implicatorie a thing it is , for them to erre in matter of faith , and not to erre fundamentally . for either that erring councell must define some positive errour , or that which god never revealed , to be revealed from god , or that some true revelation of god is an errour ; both which contain no less malice then this , to make god a lyar . quest . 21. seeing s. paul , ephes. 4. v. 14. affirms , that our saviour had appointed pastours and teachers , till the day of judgement , as a means to preserve christian people from being carried about with every wind of doctrine , these words every wind of doctrine cannot be understood disjunctively ; for then if those pastours preserved them from being seduced in one only point of christian doctrine , it would not be true , that they preserved them from being carried about with every wind of doctrine ; but they must be understood conjunctively , that is , that they preserve them from being carried away with any wind of doctrine whatsoever , which should chance to be buzzed into their ears by false teachers . now seeing such winds of erroneous doctrine are raised as well in points , which protestants account not fundamentall as in fundamentalls , the meaning of the apostle must be , that by means of those pastours christians be preserved from following any errour in faith , whither it be fundamentall or not fundamentall ; and consequently that they can ass●redly direct them , to eschew all errours in faith , which they could not do , if they themselves were subject to teach them any errour , or seduce them by any w●nd of doctrine whatsoever . seeing also that s. paul , in the same place , ephesians the 4. v. 10. tells us , that the said pastours are to consummate the saints , and to build up the mysticall body of christ , i demand , whither the apostle by these words make not those pastours , able to secure christian people from errour , not only in the foundation ( as protestants term it ) but in superstructures also ; for otherwise they would have been instituted by our saviour only to found his mysticall body the church , but not to build it up , and to ground , or initiate the saints , but not to consummate them . quest . 22. if it should be answered , that these and such like promises , or institutions of christ , are only conditionall , that is truly intended on his part , but yet may be frustrated by the malice of such as corrrespond not to his intention ; and therefore , though he intended , that these pastours should performe the said offices in the church , yet that it involved this condition , if they were not wanting on their parts , but by their failing the institution of christ is made frustrate and of no effect . i answer to this prophane and unchristian objection , first , that if christs promises and institutions be thus inefficacious and conditionall , that notwithstanding all the promises , that christ hath made for the preservation of his church , yet by the malice of christians , or others , the whole christian church may utterly faile and come to nothing ; secondly that it may erre even in fundamentall points ( contrarie to the doctrine of protestants ) and so become a synagogue of satan . thirdly , that the ancient promises , of the coming of the messias , of the redemption of mankind , of the saving of some at the last judgement , &c. have no absolute certainty in them , and so by the malice of men might have been , or may be frustrated . fourthly , that by this there is no certain credit to be given to any promise , or institution of god or christ , in the whole old or new testament . for a thousand different conditions may be invented , which not being performed , or put , the prediction fails : thus one may say , ( upon the like grounds ) that as the promises of benefits , or blessings , might be hindred by the malice and demerits of wicked persons , so the threats and thundrings of punishments upon sinners , may be hindred by the vertues and good works of saints : and because we have no rule to know , what proportion of goodness or malice is sufficient to frustrate such predictions , we remain wholly uncertain , whither they shall be absolutely verified , or no , unless therefore this principle be setled , that all divine institutions and predictions , are to be held absolute , and never to be frustrated , whensoever it is not evidently apparent , that they are conditionall , and may be hindred , there can be no certainty , that any institution , or prediction in the whole scripture shall be absolutely fullfilled . seeing therefore it is not evident , that this institution ephesians the 4. &c. and others of the same nature concerning the church , are conditionall , they are to be supposed to be absolute , and not to be frustrated by any malice of men whatsoever . fifthly , no protestant , who holds the whole visible church cannot perish , nor all her pastours prove willfull seducers , can apply this answer to the text now cited , viz. ephesians 4. &c. for if it be hindred by the malice of the said pastours , they must with joint consent maliciously and wittingly teach false doctrine to be the doctrine of christ , which were to teach fundamentall errours , and to fall of from christ . if this solution may pass for current , who can be certainly assured , that there is any true church of christ , visible or invisible , existent now in the world : for all the promises , concerning the continuance of it to the worlds end , may be as well said to be as well conditionall & frustrable by the malice of men , as this ephesians the 4. &c. and who knows , that the said malice is not already grown to that height , that it hath deserved , that god should take his true church quite out of the world ; and so that there is now no true church at all existent in the whole world . quest . 23. whither it be not evident , that unlearned protestants , who cannot determine differences in religion , either by force of argument , or places of scripture , but must wholly depend , in the choice of their faith , upon the authority and credit of christian teachers , are not obliged in conscience to preferre that authority and credibility of doctours , before all others , which all circumstances confidered , is absolutely and unquestionably the greater authority . quest . 24. whither that authority of doctours , where those of one side are equall at least , if not exceeding them of the contrarie party , in learning , wisedome , zeal , sincerity , vertue , sanctitie , and all other qualities and perfections , which conferre to the accomplishment of compleat authority in a christian teacher , and with this equality incomparably exceed the doctours of the other party in number , is not in all prudence to be judged absolutely & unquestionably the greater authority ? quest . 25. whither this equality at least , in all the said perfections , is not to be found in the roman doctours , compared with those of protestants ? quest 26. whither with this forementioned equalizing the protestant doctours , those of the roman church , the many years of their continuance , and universall extent of their religion considered , exceed not incomparably in number those of the protestant profession ? quest . 27. whither , this equality in perfections & incomparable excess in number considered , all unlearned protestants are not obliged , both in prudence and conscience , to preferre the authority of the roman doctours before that of protestants , and consequently to follow the roman , and desert the protestant doctrine ? quest . 28. whither upon the foresaid considerations , the authority of the protestant doctours , in all things wherein they contradict the roman , is not contemptibile , and unable to sway the judgement of any prudent christian , to frame any morall esteem of it : for though in matters , wherein they are either seconded , or not contradicted , by an authority incomparably greater then their own , they may deservedly be esteemed , for their naturall abilities and morall qualities worthy of credit , yet in all things where in they stand in opposition , and contradiction against an authority incomparably exceeding theirs , they deserve nothing but to be slighted & contemned by all those , who are to be led by the sole force of authority . thus when protestant doctours affirm , that either scriptures or fathers are for them , and against the roman church , what they say in this is not to be regarded , seeing the authoritie of the roman doctours , absolutely greater then theirs , unanimously affirms the quite contrary . thus when they affirm that the roman church is full of errours , and superstitions crept in they know neither when nor how , their accusation is to be slighted , being clearly and constantly contradicted by a far greater authority . thus they say , that protestants may be saved , living and dying willfully in their religion , they deserve no credit at all , for the quite contrary is most constantly defended by the incomparably stronger authoritie of the roman doctours : and the like is to be affirmed in all the points of difference betwixt the two religions . so that a protestant is not to consider the abilities & authority of his doctours absolutely , or in matters out of controversie , but as contradicting an authority ●comparably exceeding theirs ; in which contradiction they deserve neither credit nor esteem . quest . 29. i demand further , that if the authoritie of all the doctours of the whole body of protestants , be so inconsiderable , in comparison with that of the roman doctours , how much less will be the authoritie of any one sect , or party of them ; and then how minute and scarce perceptible will be the authoritie of a lawd , an hammond , a chillingworth , a fern , a bramhall , a taylor , &c. which now obtain so powerfull an ascendant , upon the hearts of our modern lay protestants ; seeing they are in a manner nothing in respect of the authoritie of the roman doctours . quest . 30. all this is demanded , supposing that the roman doctours were only equall to those of protestants in all the forenamed qualities , conducing to the perfect authoritie of a master in christianity : but now i demand , whether those , who have authoritie of teaching in the roman church , generally speaking , in so much as can be prudently deduced by experience from them , are not much excelling the protestant ministrie in all the said qualities ? what councells have they worth the mentioning in comparison with the generall councells consenting with the present roman church , ( even according to their own confession ) as the second of nice , the great councell of lateran , the councell of constance , florence & trent , wherein such multitudes of learned men , & holy patriarchs , metropolitanes , archbishops , bishops , doctours , prelates , both of the eastern and western churches , unanimously confirmed the romane , and condemned the protestant doctrine ? what proofs of learning have the protestant ministry , comparable to those of the roman doctours , whereof many have written one , no small number two , others three and four , others six , eight , ten , twelve , and some twenty & four and twenty great tomes in folio , and those replenished in the generall repute of christendom , even amongst protestants also , with profound and high learning ? who amongst their ministrie have they , who have obtained the universall esteem of sanctitie , as hath our gregorie , beda , thomas , bonaventure , antonine , dominicke , and diverse others . where find they amongst theirs that zeal , to pass into the heart of so many barbarous and heathen nations to plant the gospell , even with the undergoing of unheard-of torments , and suffering most cruell martyrdoms , as many of the roman clergie have done within these late years ? let them name but one sole minister , who hath suffered martyrdom for preaching christian faith to the pagans . what means have the protestant ministry , with their wives , goods and families , to apply themselves to study and devotion , comparable to our single clergie , and retired religious . where is that unanimous consent in all points of faith ( seeing they are perpetually jarring , not onely one with another , but the same ministers dissenting notoriously now , from what they taught twenty years ago ) amongst them , compared to the constancy and agreement of our doctours ? what miracles have any of their ministry ever done , in confirmation , either of their doctrine against the roman church , or of the christian faith against heathens , as ( unless all humane faith be infringed ) many of ours have done , both against them and heathens ? i could instance in many more particulars , but these may suffice for these short demands . whence appears evidently , that whosoever professes to be led by the sole authority of christian doctours , and pastours , must either deserve the esteem , i say not only of an unchristian , but even of an imprudent man , if he adhere to so undeserving and contemptible an authority , as is that of the protestant ministry in comparison of the roman doctours , who so incomparably outstrip them , not only in multitude , but in all the motives and perfections , which give credit to the authority of a christian teacher . quest . 31. whether hence be not evidently discovered , not only the insufferable pride of luther , and the other originall beginners of any sect in protestancy , in preferring their sole authority before that of the prelates and doctours of all the visible churches in christendom , existent when they begun first to preach their doctrine , but the extream madnesse of all the ignorant laity , who followed them , upon their sole authority , and preferred one single person upon his bare word , ( without any extraordinary signes or manifest proofs from heaven attesting his authority ) before all the doctours , prelates , councells , churches within the precincts of christendom , both of that present time and for nine hundred years before ? and if those were infested with so deep a frenesie , how can any man be judged deservedly discreet and prudent , who approves of their proceedings in this particular , and sides with them , ( at least in some article or other ) in the opposition of the whole christian world , as all protestants do , even to this day . quest . 32. hence i farther demand , that seeing on one side the true christian religion , having the divine wisdome for its authour , cannot admit of any thing imprudent , as properly belonging to it , in the choice of it : and on the other , that the protestant religion , or any sect whatsoever sprung from it , or existent in it , cannot be prudently chosen , by any unlearned person , who is sufficiently informed of the nullity of that authority which propounds it , compared with the authority propounding the roman religion ; whether i say , those particulars considered , the protestant religion , in any sect of it whatsoever , can be esteemed the true christian religion ? quest . 33. hence , i presse farther , whether the proving that protestant religion cannot be prudently chosen , or retayned , by any unlearned persons , who are sufficiently informed , of the eminent authority propounding the roman religion , is not a sufficient argument to them , that no sect amongst them in any point wherein it differs from the roman , hath either any solid ground in the holy scriptures , or true relation to gods holy spirit , or coherence with true reason ; seeing a religion , which cannot by them be chosen prudently , cannot possibly proceed from any of these three ; whatsoever fair show protestants , each respectively to his severall sect , make vainly of them . quest . 34. and upon this , i demand yet farther , whether the roman doctours have any obligation to urge any other argument then this , either from scripture , fathers , or reason against protestants , till they have cleared their religion from the impeachment of imprudence , committed by their followers in the election of it , or persisting in it , as is afore declared . quest . 35. on the contrary side ; i demand whether the roman doctours have any obligation in rigour of dispute , to use any other argument , for perswading unlearned persons , to desert the protestant , and imbrace the roman religion , then this of imprudence in adhering to the protestant , and of prudence in uniting themselves to the roman church , so long as the said unlearned protestants , perswade themselves , that they proceed prudently in preferring their own before the roman . seeing this erroneous perswasion is the first step which must be redressed relinquishing the one ; and the contrary perswasion , the first step which must be fixed , in approaching to the other . now when unlearned protestants once confess that they are convinced in this , and thereupon recede from protestancy , but object that the prudentiall motives to preferre the roman religion before the protestant , as they convince that the protestant is wholly improbable , and so to be deserted , so they convince no more then that the roman is probable , and so is in great likelyhood to be the true religion , but convince not , that it is so much as morally certain ? to protestants brought thus far , there is an obligation put upon roman doctours , to prove at least the morall certainty of it ; to such as acknowledge that it is morally certain that the roman religion , is the sole true saving religion , but deny , notwithstanding , that it thereby follows that it is fallibly certain ; rises an obligation to prove , that it is also infallibly certain , and when one is once convinced of this also , but yet doubts whether this infallibility be divine , and so the highest of all infallibilities , there will be also an obligation to shew to such as are brought on so far , the most high divine infallibility of the roman religion . hence therefore i demand , whether our late protestants , and socinians , proceed not preposterously , and unreasonably , in pressing roman doctours , to demonstrate the divine infallibility of the truth of the roman religion , before they themselves grant , that it is either infallible in any degree , or morally certain , or probable , or prudentiall . for though it be necessary , to prove all these particulars in their due circumstances , yet there is no necessity , to prove them all at once to every adversary , but by degrees the one in order after the other , with correspondence , to what of them is denied , or called in question , by those with whom we treat , for thus we proceed orderly , and logically à notioribus , ad ignotiora , and hold a correspondence with nature , by proceeding , ab imperfectionibus , ad perfectiora , still observing the stop , or progresse of our adversary , and still stopping , and going forward along with him . and if this methode had been strictly held by our late controvertists , the adversaries mouths had been stopped long before this . quest . 36. seeing these demands are proposed to such as believe that without true christian faith no man can be saved , and that this saving faith is one only ; and that this only faith is infallible , & divine : and moreover seeing it is already shewed that every difference , in any point of faith whatsoever , makes a different faith and religion ; and that amongst all the different religions , & beliefs , now on foot in these parts of christendom , there is none that can be prudently imbraced , ( by such as are in the number of the unlearned , and yet are sufficiently informed about the force of the authority of those who teach them ) save the roman , and that no religion can be true , which cannot be prudently imbraced by such unlearned persons , seeing in a manner the whole multitude of christians consists of those who are unlearned , and must according to prudence , follow the authority or their teachers . those things , i say considered , it is finally demanded , whether by proving , that the roman faith only can be prudently imbraced ( which is already done ) it is not made inevitably clear , that the roman only , is that divine , infallible , one , true faith , wherein christians may be saved . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a93670e-80 1 bishop of canterbury , in his relation of the conference , &c. §. 35. pag. 280. 2 b. of cant. in fore cited place . 1 bish. cant. p. 129. num . 3. b. of cant. above cited 181. b. of cant. p. 283. a briefe relation of that which hath been lately attempted to procure ecclesiastical peace amongst protestants published by samuel hartlib. hartlib, samuel, d. 1662. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a37055 of text r209846 in the english short title catalog (wing d2835). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 56 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 19 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a37055 wing d2835 estc r209846 08696173 ocm 08696173 41561 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a37055) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 41561) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1257:12) a briefe relation of that which hath been lately attempted to procure ecclesiastical peace amongst protestants published by samuel hartlib. hartlib, samuel, d. 1662. dury, john, 1596-1680. [1], 35 p. printed by i.r. for andrew crooke, london : 1641. an account of john dury's mission to various countries to promote unity of protestant churches. sometimes attributed to john dury. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. eng dury, john, 1596-1680. protestantism -history. a37055 r209846 (wing d2835). civilwar no a briefe relation of that which hath been lately attempted to procure ecclesiasticall peace amongst protestants. published by samuel hartlib dury, john 1641 9406 4 0 0 0 0 0 4 b the rate of 4 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-12 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-10 taryn hakala sampled and proofread 2006-10 taryn hakala text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a briefe relation of that which hath been lately attempted to procure ecclesiasticall peace amongst protestants . published , by samuel hartlib . printer's or publisher's device london , printed by i. r. for andrew crooke , and are to be sold at his shop in pauls church-yard , at the signe of the green dragon . 1641. sir edwin sands in his book called europae speculum , or a view of the state of religion in the western parts of the world , pag. 183. the end ( of these unhappy differences in religion , between the reformed , and lutheran protestants ) will be that their enemies shall laugh , when themselves shall have cause to weep , unlesse the graciousnesse of god , stirre up some worthy princes of renowne , and reputation with both the sides , to enterpose their wisedome , industry and authority , for the uniting these factions , or at least wise for reconciling , and composing those differences in some tollerable sort : a work of immortall fame , and desert , and worthy of none other , but of them of whom this wicked base world is not worthy . a brief relation of that which hath been lately attempted to procure ecclesiasticall peace amongst protestants . the purpose of soliciting a roncilement amongst protestants in matters of religion was first undertaken , and afterward prosecuted after this manner . when in the yeer 1628 ▪ iohn dury was in prussia minister to the english company of marchants residing at elbing , he was sent unto , dealt withall , and moved by dr. godeman a wise , godly , and learned man , one of the king of swedens privy councellors , and judge of his high court in those parts , to second him in a businesse of ecclesiasticall unitie amongst protestants , which he said , his king and master would be glad to advance . so good a motion being readily entertained , it came to passe afterward , when sir thomas roe was sent ambassador extraordinary by his majesty of great britain , to agree the sweds and polonians ( which also he did successefully perform ) that both doctor godeman , and master dury did make him throughly acquainted with all the passages of their negotiation . whereupon he according to that generous disposition , which doth lead him to favour all good indeavours of a publike nature , did very willingly assist them with counsell , and at master duryes intreaty , conferred with the lord chancellor oxonstiern , to see how farre he would shew himself in the businesse , and what course might be resolved upon to proceed joyntly to the effect thereof . the lord chancellor manifested a good liking to the work , and promised to my lord ambassador to joyn effectually therein towards his king , and the lutheran clergy of his best acquaintance . upon this ground , my lord ambassador encouraged mr dury to proceed , and when his lordship was gone into england , the lord chancellor sent for him , heard his particular proposalls , conferred with him about the same , testified his willingnesse to give assistance thereunto , and desired mr dury to give him information of the passages of the work in time to come , so he went from elbing into engl. in the yeer 1630. chiefly , because his congregagation at elbing was dissolved by reason of the inconveniences which warre had brought upon the trade in that place ; and because sr thomas roe had promised to move the chief prelates in england to assist him in the work of pacification . being then arrived there , he first acquainted his most familiar friends of the clergy with his purpose , and shewed them some declarations written by the chief preachers of dantzigh to make it appear , that they were not only ready to joyn in such a negotiation , but also desirous and in hope that the divines in england would in like manner concur ; which being done , he came to sr thomas roe , who was mindefull of his promise , and became every way as good as his word towards him . for he recommended the businesse towards the kings most excellent majestie ; who was pleased to refer the consideration of this matter to my lords grace of canterbury , and to the bishop of london , that they should hear mr dury , and declare their resolutions to his proposalls . this was done accordingly . and he was commanded to write unto the divines of his acquaintance in prussia , and to the lord chancellor oxonstiern , to testifie first the good inclination , and resolution which the clergy of england had , to cooperate in due time towards so good a work . secondly , that their councell for the present was only this , that to prepare a way for future treaties , the magistrates of both sides should inhibite railing disputes in the pulpit , and put down the names of partiality , so farre as could be done , and not suffer any debatements to be taken up or fomented about matters of ceremony in the form of publike worship . this he did , and after a good space , when news came , that the protestant princes in germany had leagued themselves together for their mutuall defence , and that an amiable conference of their divines had been holden with good successe at eeipzigh to compose the differences in religion , master dury was permitted to go into germany , that he might see how the divines of all sides might be disposed towards a conjunction of councells , and endeavours in the work . to make away for this purpose , he had before hand through , sir iames spense lord of oreholm , and generall to the scottish nation , in the swedish army , given notice to his majesty of sweden , what his aime was in the businesse of reconcilement , and how it might be effected : therefore when he came in the yeer 1631. into germany , he found the king somewhat prepared , whom soon after the battle fought at leipzigh , he spoke withall at wirtsburg . his majestie was pleased to give him large audience , and by conference received full information of all those deliberations , and particular wayes , whereby the work could be prosecuted , of which , the sammlary resolution whereunto his majesty gave assent , was this . that the councell given by the reverend prelates of england was to be followed , for the inhibition of disputes , and partiall names : and that as master dury did intend to labour with the divines of the reformed side to dispose them , to joyn unanimously in the means , and wayes of amitie , so his majesty would recommend the same endeavours to be undertaken , by some divine of the lutheran fide , who should in like manner work upon the rest of their own party , and afterward when a fit preparation should be found on both sides , then his majesty did offer to give unto master dury his letters of publike recommendation towards the princes of germany , and chiefly towards the elector of brandenburg , and landgrave of hessen , that with his and their concurrence , and the help of forraine divines , the businesse might be brought to a solemn conclusion . this favourable resolution being taken , mr dury dealt first with the divines of hessen , then with those of hanaw , and of the palatinate , and of deuxpont , and of the wetteraw , till he heard the king of sweden was dead , which evill news , although they made a stop in some part of his resolutions , yet they made him not leave the same , but altering a little his course , he procured from all the foresaid divines certain letters and declarations , whereof some were inscribed to my lords grace of canterbury , some joyntly to him and to the lord bishop of london , whereby they shewed their serious intention to labour for unity , with a desire to be assisted by the church of england . whiles this was a doing sir robert amstruther arrived as extraordinary ambassador from his majesty to the princes of germany . with him master dury ( having now gained the consent of the reformed party , and thinking it fit to deal with the lutheran side also ) went to the meeting of the protestant states , which was appointed at heilebron to frame an evangelicall league . there he made use of some lutheran statesmen to insinuate to the divines of that side certain propositions , which made known unto them his purpose . this first motion was not without effect towards many and chiefly towards those of strasburg , and norimberg , and some in the land of wurtenburg . the meeting being ended , and the league framed at heilebrone , he returned from thence towards the quarters of franckfort , and dealt with two superintendents doctor dunner who was set over mentz , by the lord chancellor of sweden , and doctor leisering who had the inspection of darmstat , and with the senior pastor of the city of franckfort , doctor tettelbach . all these were brought to recommend the work unto their brethren , and in the mean time the churches at paris , geneva , metts , and the vniversity of sedan sent their answers ( for letters formerly had been written to them ) wherein they assisted master dury with councell ; some also of the lutheran side declared in like manner a forward zeal and inclination to the work , by certain writes imparted to that effect unto him . therefore when a larger opportunity to work more effectually upon all , was offered by another meeting of the protestant states , which was appointed at franckfort , he thought good to make his intention known unto the convocated ambassadors , and desired their assistance to further the same , whereupon a resolution was taken to this effect ; `` whereas master dury having desired of confederate evangelicall states , permission to treat with the divines and pastors of their churches concerning the meanes of peace ecclesiasticall ; although the ambassadors then present had not gotten any particular instructions concerning this matter from their principalls , yet neverthelesse their opinion was , that if the lord chancellor oxonstiern would by his authority advance this matter , that their masters who wish from their hearts for this unitie , will be so much the more ready with all their endevours to give assistance thereunto , according to the beginning made at the conference held at leipzigh , whereunto the lords states , who are now present , in like manner unaminously do compromitte . having gotten this approbation of the work , and recommendation thereof by the states unto the lord chancellor ; and being much encouraged by the private promisses of assistance , which the severall ambassadors from all parts made unto him , he thought fit to write letters to all the lutheran vniversities , and to those of the low-countries to acquaint them with his purpose of seeking unity in matters of religion . which being done when afterward another meeting was in agitation to be held at erfurt in the spring , he thought it fit ( because he was minded to return in the mean time for england ) to move the ambassadors of the palatinate , of brandenburg , of deuxpont , and of hessen ; in case that any meeting should be held before he could come back again , that they would be pleased to set amongst themselves some course , how this matter might be prosecuted thereat , lest so good beginnings might be without effect . they consented to this motion , and met to consult about the matter . the effect of their resolution was this , that they would labour , in case a meeting should be called , to cause insert in the letters invitatory this clause , `` that every one of the princes would be pleased to bring along with him a divine or two , instructed and authorized by his churches , to give advice about the means of procuring unitie , and composing differences in religion ; and if the states should not meet there , that neverthelesse in time , and place convenient , some particular convocation of their own divines should be brought to passe , wherein these two points should be put to deliberation . first , whether , yea , or no , the acts of the last conference held at leipzigh , should not be received by all the churches , so farre as they contain an agreement of the articles of the confession of ausburg ? secondly , whether , yea , or no , the heads wherein a disagreement may be yet remaining in that conference , cannot admit of a reconciliation ; if yea , what that reconciliation may be ; if no , then it is to be inquired , whether or no , those remaining differences of opinion be of such importance , that by reason of the same , a schisme should be upheld betwixt the churches . these things the ambassador , and chancellor of the elector of brandinburg did take upon him to set forward by the means of his prince . so then mr. dury went through holland ( where he saluted the chief divines to whom he had written out of franckfort , and some others of his acquaintance ) and arrived at london about the end of the yeer , 1633. there he found d laud , lord archbishop of canterbury in his predecessors place . therefore the letters and declarations of forraign churches and divines were presented to him , with a brief narration of more particular proceeding . all was well liked , and resolution agreed upon , that mr. dury should proceed , and return again into germany , which that he might do with greater advantage to the work , he dealt before his departure with the reverend fathers in god , doctor morton , lord bishop of durham , doctor hall , lord bishop of excester , and doctor davenant , lord bishop of salisbury , who gave him certain theologicall declarations for the advancement of his purpose . to which effect , he also wrote into ireland , to the most reverend father in god , doctor vsher , lord archbishop of armagh , and primate of ireland , and to the two lord bishops of kilmore and ardach , who in like manner did afterward joyntly assist him with their advices to the same end . in the mean time letters were sent also from helvetia , and from norimberg , giving such testimony of concurrence , as were fit to encourage him to proceed . for which cause also when he was ready to go back again into germany , my lords grace of canterbury gave him in answer to the letters which he had brought from the german protestants of both sides to him , two letters , the one to be communicated unto the reformed , the other unto the lutheran party , wherein he did acknowledge the receit of their letters , and moving them to proceed in the good purpose which they had undertaken , he promised in due time his further cooperation therein . with these declarations , together with a recommendatory letter unto sir rob. amstruther , who was then ambassador for his majesty in germany ; mr. dury went from london to hamburgh , where he found sir robert waiting for a new commission to go for franckfort ; and whilst his lordship stayed , he took occasion to acquaint the chief divines of that city in their consistoriall meeting , with his negotiation , who having promised to joyn endeavours , he went from thence towards franckfort , to a great and solemn meeting of the protestant states , where he arrived in my lord ambassadors company in iune 1634. there he dealt in particular , first with his best acquaintance , and then made a proposition in generall to the assembly ; thereupon the states were moved to depute out of every colledge , some to take his businesse into consideration . these came together , gave mr dury audience , received informations of the circumstances of this work , and perused severall declaratory writings , which divers universities and divines of both sides in germany , as also out of germany in forraine churches , as england , france , helvetia , and transilvania had given to him , which moved them to take the matter into serious consideration , and make a decree whereof the heads are these . first , `` that master dury having been heard by a solemn committee , and the writs which he produced , taken into consideration by the rest of the states , all of them with unanimous consent , did judge his work most laudable , most acceptable to god , and most necessary , and usefull to his church , yet seeing it was of great and weighty consequence , and that many of the ambassadors had not received any instructions thereabout from their masters , therefore no finall resolution could be taken by them at that present , but that they would faithfully relate and recommend these businesses unto their masters to bring them to some effectuall resolution . secondly , that others which had received instructions from their principalls , about the matter , had proposed two wayes of proceeding in the work , some thought it expedient , that the manner of proceeding which master dury had suggested unto the states , should be followed in bringing a conference of peaceable divines to passe , that a fundamentall agreement in points necessary for salvation , according to the example of the conference held at leipzigb might be setled ; and that to this effect , the states of the four upper circles should give up unto the prince elector palatine , their more particular advices towards the furthering of the matter , and that the declarations of the two saxon circles should be given up to the elector of saxony and brandinburg , who then should agree amongst themselves concerning the time and place of a meeting , which might be named unto the rest , and afterwards invitatory letters should be sent to forraine states and princes to move them to send thither also some of their divines . thirdly , that others thought it no lesse expedient to proceed thus ; namely , that the electors of saxony and brandinburg should be intreated by the states , then met together , to reassume the amiable conference , which was begun three yeers ago , betwixt their divines , and those of cassell , and to this effect that ( if not sooner , at least then ) when the treaties of peace universall should be set on foote , a meeting should be appointed , whereunto peaceable divines on both sides , both within , and out of the empire should be called : in which meeting this should chiefly be aymed at , that an agreement should be made in a common confession of faith containing all the fundamentalls of religion necessary for salvation , setting other points of scholasticall dispute aside . fourthly , that the ambassadors who had no instructions did promise to relate unto their principalls , their advices , and procure fit resolutions thereupon , which should be sent unto the civill electors , professing the protestant religion . fifthly , moreover , that it was fully consented unto by some , and by some taken ad referendum , that in the mean time all christian moderation was to be used on both sides , aswell in preaching , as in writing ; lest if this was not done , some hinderance might befall unto their unitie , and being done by this means , the civill peace also might so much the more be advanced . sixthly , that prayers were to be conceived in the churches of both sides , to intreat almighty god to blesse these attempts . this was made an act the fourteenth day of september , 1634. to which the seal of those which had the direction of the meeting was applyed , and all the chief hands did subscribe it . of this act , the originall , sealed and subscribed , was given to master dury , to enable him to testifie authentically to other churches , the resolution of the protestant states , that thereby all well-willers unto the work might be encouraged to continue in setting it forward . upon this ground he went again towards england through the low-countries , where he informed the divines of his acquaintance , and the deputies of the provinciall synodes of things past at frauckfort , and elsewhere in these consultations , obliging them thereby to take the matter to heart . and when he arrived into england , my lords grace of canterbury being informed of all matters , did by sir thomas roes procurement recommend him to the king , who was pleased in taking more particular notice of his person , and work , then in former time , to permit him still to proceed . to which effect he went over again into holland , with his majesties letters of safe conduct ; with a testimoniall from my lords grace of canterbury , bearing witnesse that master dury had acquainted him with the successe of his proceedings , that he went again out of england to prosecute the same businesse , not only with his knowledge , but also with his approbation , and assurance that he would be ready in due time , to advance 〈◊〉 holy desires of peace . he had also private letters from doctor davenant lord bishop of salisbury , and doctor hall lord bishop of excester , to some of the chief divines of the low-countries , to move them , to concurre more effectually in these endeavours , then they had formerly done . moreover , he had letters from the ambassador of the lords states of the low-countries , residing at london unto the states both of holland and zealand . thus he set forth , and arrived at the hague in iuly , the yeer 1635. there he dealt first with the states of holland , to induce them to recommend these thoughts unto their provinciall synod which was then begun . afterward he went to those of zealand , and appeared in their classicall meetings held at walcheren , zirickzee , tolen and goes , then he dealt with the university of leyden , and the synods as they came in order ; namely , with that of north-holland , and of vtrecht , and with the french synod in those parts , from which declarations were obtained , fit for the advancement of his purpose : when he had thus farre proceeded in holland , and found that evill affected mindes towards peace , raised ungrounded surmises against him , to stop the good inclinations of impartiall men , he used meanes to clear mens judgements , by causing somethings to be printed for the better information of all . and having understood that the lord chancellor oxonstiern was to go from germany into sweden , where he hoped that his lordship would do more then in germany he was able to do . for the work of peace , at the perswasion of some friends , he took a journey thitherward , where he arrived in iune , anno 1636. nor was he altogether disappointed of his expectation . for the lord chancellor coming thither favoured his work , and although his proceedings were slow , yet much realitie was found in them . for when a resolution was taken to permit master dury to treat with the diviaes of that kingdome , four places were named stockholm , vbsall , westerose , and strengnese , to which he might addresse himself particularly , and lay open his intention , having therefore first dealt with those of stockholm , he had the lord chancellors letters to make way for him , at the other places : of which the vniversitie of vbsall was the chief . there he had conference both collegially and severally with the professors of divinitie , who gave full assent unto his desires , and set down these conditions , upon which they were ready to agree , and joyn with the reformed side . 1 `` that a full agreement should be made in all the fundamentall articles of faith . 2 that all errors overthrowing the foundation , or tending to overthrow the same , should be condemned . 3 that in matters ceremoniall and of indifferency , there should be a mutuall toleration . 4 that betwixt the parties united sincerity and uprightnesse should be maintained , lest ancient errors might be upheld under doubtful speeches . 5 that when peace is made , none should be suffered to maintain , excuse , or spread any more the errors once condemned . 6 that ambitious and needlesse disputes and brablings should be inhibited on all sides . 7 that former reproaches and injuries should be put to oblivion . 8 that the church gouernment should be setled according to apostolicall rules . these demands the rest agreed unto , neither was any thing of moment added thereunto by any . therefore being returned back again into stockholm , and having informed the lords regents of that which was past , thoughts were entertained about the first , and the last of these conditions , as the chief of all the rest , namely , concerning fundamentall articles of faith , and the establishment of ecclesiasticall government ; touching the first , namely , how to limitate the number of fundamentalls , and distinguish the same from not fundamentals , mr. dury did impart a brief discourse unto those of vbsall , to which they made no reply , as being loath to go too fast , before they should have the consent of their brethren ; yet silently they assented thereunto . concerning the second , because they then were , as even yet at this time , they are in deliberaration to settle their ecclesiasticall government , by cannons , which they are about to make . therefore both the dean of the faculty of divinity at vbsall , the queens tutor at stockholm , and the lord chancellor conferred severall times with mr. dury , about that matter , to know the constitutions of the chief reformed churches , wherein he laboured to give them satisfaction ; and imparted also unto them the printed judgements of the english prelats , doctor morton , doctor davenant , and doctor hall , which besides some other publike treatises of the same nature , were communicated unto them . but the lord chancellor being desirous to confer more particularly , and at leisure , with master dury , about all matters belonging to the further advancing of the work of pacification , took him along in his company and coach towards vbsall , in a circuit which he made thitherward from stockholm , thorow strengnese , and westerose . in this progresse the the bishops of strengnese and westerose , were dealt withall the second time . they setled good resolutions , and laid grounds for constant future treaties ; so far , that they had thoughts of sending some body into england ; neverthelesse , before matters could be brought to full maturity , some of the german lutherans hearing large reports of master duries proceeding in sweden , and being moved with jealousie that the swedes would come to some publike treaties , and therein to a conclusion without them , did expostulate the matter , and by letters endeavoured to disswade them from all further entertaining of his motions , by which means their spirits were troubled , and their resolutions so clogged , that from that time forward , they went heavily to work ; yet master dury hoping to overcome all such letts , did not leave the work , but laboured so much the more to engage them to it , by shewing wayes free from all exception , whereby the differences which they did stick at , might be composed . this he did first at vbsall , and afterward at stockholm , in a meeting of the chief clergy , which was commanded to deal with him , wherein he gave them satisfaction to all their demands , in a whole dayes conference instituted to that effect , so that they seemed to acquiosse . and because they had laid this as a main ground , that if a fundamentall agreement could be found in the doctrine of the lords supper , they would not much stand to debate other matters . therefore not long after their conference , he offered to the archbishop and professors of vbsall , a learned and patheticall declaration , which from the university of aberdeine , and ministry of edinburg , was sent unto him , to shew the fundamentall agreement of protestants in that point . at this declaration some small exceptions were taken , in respect of certain forms of speeches contained therein , which mr. dury having fully explained , and thereby resolved their doubts , those of vbsall did rest satisfied , but some others there were , who , having set themselves professedly against the work , would , by no means , receive any content . for , the more humbly , and discreetly , it was offered unto them , the more they sought to avoid it , and laboured by all means to cry down , and discredit the very purpose of agreement , lest the good liking which the lords regents did shew thereunto , might take some reall effect , and work upon the spirits of the common clergie , a good impression to give way unto it : this their perversnesse being fully apparrant , moved mr. dury to deal in some kinde more strictly with them , than otherwise his inclination would have suffered him to do : yet at last , to avoid occasions of strife , he resolved to depart from thence , and let the businesse lie a while asleep ; but lest some unconscionable men might falsly traduce all his proceedings in his absence , as then already in his presence they had begun to do , by misinforming others , of his words and actions , and misinterpreting , suspiciously , his aim , he caused to print , ( before he went away from thence ) a summary , and true narrative , of all his chief actions and proposalls , which he offered to the clergie of that kingdom , met in a convocation . and afterward , to the end they should have no just cause of false surmises , or pretext to traduce his intentions , he made a solemn vow to binde himself to lawfull purposes and unblamable wayes of proceeding , which he put to paper and presented to the lord chancellor to be imparted unto the chief of that clergy . these preventions being used , when he was resolved to be gone , the lords regents were pleased , in the queens name , to give him a declaration , and dimissory letter , whereby his actions in sweden were approved , bearing witnesse that master dury being come into sweden to dispose the minds of their clergy unto the work of peace ecclesiasticall , according to the grounds laid by the states of the empire at franckfort , anno 1634. he had dealt by permission and command of her majesty , with the chief divines of that kingdome ; and although some difficulties were risen , as in waightie matters is usuall , yet that he had not omitted any thing which could serve for the taking away of the same . thus he went from stockholm , anno 1638. and came to lubeck , there he had speech with doctor hunnius , one of the chief divines of those quarters . him he prepared to entertain the motion of peace , which afterward should be made unto him . from lubeck he set forward towards hamburg to meet sir thomas roe who there was residing as ambassador extraordinary from his majesty of great britaine towards the king of denmark , and princes of germany . to him he gave attendance , all the while he staid in those parts , not leaving his former purpose , but rather using the advantage of his lordships favourable countenance . in this new period of the negotiation , he went slowly to work , first because he looked towards the swedes , how they would behave themselves after his departure ; secondly , because he waited for some overture to begin , and make some proposalls at the publike treaties of peace in germany , which then was thought upon by reason of the emperors ambassador , who was come to those parts , and the mediators which did offer themselves towards that negotiation . but when those treaties were not likely to proceed , he went to bremen , that he might acquaint the divines of that place , with his former proceedings , and gain in time to come their assistance by way of councell . these were very cordiall in the businesse , and entertaining him with all kindenesse , and liberalitie ( which no germans before them had done ) such encouragements , and declarations were given , as he could desire both from the clergy , and magistrate of that citie . then he proceeded towards the king of denmark , who was at gluckstad , there with the good liking and countenance of my lord ambassador , he acquainted the lord chancellor ravent●low with his desire to deal with the clergy of denmark . if his majesty would give him leave so to do . his majesty gave way to his demands , and was pleased to recommend certain writs ( which his chancellor received from master dury ) unto the consideration of his divines of the universitie of coppenhagen . these gave their judgement , and advice concerning his negotiation , tending to shew their approbation of the purpose , their particular counsell , and proposalls in prosecuting of it , and their willingnesse to treate further about it , with master dury , if his majesty would give permission thereunto . the king caused their judgement to be delivered to master dury ; who thereupon did accept of the offer of their treatie , and gave them a large answer to all their propositions containing divers overtures towards a constant progresse in a theologicall way of treatie . u●to this answer , by his majesties command , they gave a further declaration of their judgement ; whereunto master dury having replyed , and shewed his majesty a brief , and ready way to come to the purpose , the king was pleased to write unto my lord ambassador , to let him know that he thought it fit , master dury should be more particularly authorized from england , before the matter could proceed betwixt him and his divines to any issue . whiles these matters were thus in agitation , master dury dealt also with the magistrates , and ministry of hamburg , and lubeck , and with the most reverend , and most illustrious archbishop of bremen , who gave him a reference to some chief divines , who entertained his motions with very good liking , and gave him an answer to the same . in like manner he made proposalls to those of stode , who took the same into mature consideration , and promised to concurre with others in answering . at last he went to those of brunswick , and luneburg , where , with the singular favour of those princes , and by the most pious and peaceable inclinations of their councellors , and chief divines , towards the work of reconcilement , a ground was laid for a very effectuall progresse . for they have made the work their own , undertaking to dispose the rest of the lutheran churches , and universities , unto a reall concurrence in it , that afterwards they may proceed with our churches , joyntly , to a full conclusion . duke augustus of brunswick was the first to whom master dury made his addresse : this learned , and wise prince , was pleased , in favour of the work , not only to convocate his chief divines , and appoint them , with some of his councellors of state , to conferre collegially , a whole day with master dury , but also to settle a resolution , which his divines subscribed , obliging themselves thereby , to joyn in all the wayes of agreement , whereof they had conferred together ; and moreover , to recommend the matter to his cozen duke george , by a large , and most effectuall letter . with this addresse he came to duke george , residing at hildesheim , where he had no lesse , but rather more favourable entertainment then he had gotten at brunswick . for , by an act of councell the chief divines , who then were in place , were appointed to visit and entertain him , till others that were sent for should come ; and when the chief of them were come , master dury was lodged and entertained with him in one house , at the princes charge , for the space of fourteen dayes , that they together might ripen matters , and bring their thoughts to a head . which being done , a committee of some councellors of state was appointed to give them publike audience in the prince his name , to hear them confer upon the matter of agreement , to consider their councels , and joynt resolutions , and to make relation thereof unto the prince , that by his authority , and countenance , such assistance might be given to the work , in due time , as should be thought expedient . all which being done , first , the divines gave to master dury , a theologicall declaration , wherein they testified their agreement to all his proposalls , and then their more particular resolutions , concerning the manner of proceeding which they would follow in the future advancement of the work on their part , were also imparted unto him . the substance whereof was this . that doctor calixtus chief professor of the university of helmestat should , by order of the prince , put forth some treaties , wherein the heads of matters in dispute amongst protestants should be handled historically out of antiquity , to shew what the church of all ages hath beleeved thereof , and how , notwithstanding some difference of opinion thereabout among the ancient fathers , brotherly love was alwayes maintained . these treaties should be thus improved ; first they should be sent unto the lutheran universities of wittenberg , leipzigh , iena , marpurg , and rostock , and also to those of brandenburg , hessen and bremen , to move them to declare their judgements therein for mutuall agreement . then , at some fit occasion some body should go to leipzigh and wittenberg , and deal with the saxon electorall professors by word of mouth , to dispose them to a full resolution in this businesse . to which effect also the prince should move the two dukes of saxon weymar , duke william , and duke ernestus , who have long wished for this reconciliation , to cause their university of iena to cooperate therein ; and in processe of time , when the businesse should be brought by this way of proceeding , to some considerable ripenesse , then it should be required , that from great britain , and elsewhere , some body might be joyned to master dury , and also from germany some body should go into england , and other parts , to speak with the chief divines of those churches ▪ that when there should be good hopes of bringing the matter to passe , then the soveraign princes and states of all sides should be intreated to agree upon a meeting , to make some conclusion in the matter : for the good successe whereof , publike prayers should be made with common consent in all the churches . these resolutions being taken , when the prince himself had spoken to master dury , and given him assurance of his willingnesse to set forward this purpose , he did dismisse him with a recommendatory letter unto his brother , duke frederick , residing at zelle , who in like manner received master dury very kindely , and moved his divines to confer with him . in this conference , when they had received satisfaction to some doubts which were proposed , they gave consent unto all which was concluded at brunswick and hildesheim . from zelle he went to the free city of luneburg , where he acquainted the ministery of the place with his proposalls made unto other churches , that they might also take the same into their consideration , and in due time , with consent of their protector , dr. frederick , resolve what to do therein . thus the circuit of brunswick and luneburg being finished , he returned to hamburgh in february , an. 1640. from whence without delay he went towards my lord ambassador , sir thomas roe , who was at gluckstad , with the king of denmark , to give him account of all the passages of his proceedings . there he also dealt further with the lord chancellor , detloff raventlow , and the king himself was pleased , upon my lord ambassador his recommendation , to give him accesse to kisse his hand , and in presence of his son , the archbishop of bremen , to speak with him about the setting forward of his purpose . in which discourse , his majesty shewed a good liking to his proceedings , and gave way that , if he thought fit , he should make new proposalls , touching means of reconcilement , unto his divines , that they might have further occasion to entertain these thoughts as well as others . hereupon master dury did impart unto the forenamed lord chancellor , a paper , containing certain heads , fit to be theologically consulted upon by them , that their resolutions touching the same , might in due time be framed , and also made publike , if they themselves thought it expedient . thus the treaties at denmark being again set on foot , he returned from gluckstad with my lord ambassador towards hamburg , and gave , by letters , information into england , concerning all matters of moment , which passed in his work . then also some writes , presented formerly unto the divines of denmark , were made publike , that many who desired to know the passages of that negotiation , might have satisfaction therein . not long after , my lord ambassador was recalled from germany into england , about which time the private disputes amongst those of bremen were come to some height : for those that were most inclinable to moderation , suffering wrong , had sought master duries advice , and desired his help to compose their doubtfull questions . therefore he sent to some of the prelates of the church of england , and some of the professors of divinity , in both universities , certain writs , which the chief divines of bremen submitted unto their judgements , containing the true state of their difference , which reflecteth much upon the main controversie debated betwixt the reformed , and the lutheran divines ; therefore the decision thereof , will be a singular preparative for the common and more publike unity of all protestants . to these writes , the lord bishops of salisbury , and of exceter have already given their answers , and the rest to whom they are sent , have promised to do the like , who , no doubt , will be as good as their word ; in the mean time master dury ripened , somewhat , matters towards the lutherans , and endeavoured to smooth the knottinesse of the clergy of hamburg and lubeck . for , finding some warping of their intentions , which he perceived would bend another way then was expedient ; he dealt first with doctor hunnius a leading man at lubeck , and then with the senior preacher of hamburg , that when these two should be set in a right way , the lesse-knowing and more clamorous clergy might be more easily perswaded , and wrought to admit the thoughts of moderation . as for doctor c. lixtus , although some men of strife , and evill willers to him , did undertake to disturb him in these peaceable thoughts , yet being strongly countenanced , by superiors , he hath begun to perform his promise , giving master dury full assurance of his constancy , and of the concurrence of many others towards the furtherance of the same councells . and because the opposition made against doctor calixtus , by his brethren , was like unto that which the chief professors of bremen suffered by their brethren , master dury conceived that the similitude of their cases , might be a motive to induce them to mutuall correspondency , in the work of reconcilement . therefore having gotten the originall writes which bishop davenant , and bishop hall sent to those of bremen , he went thither , to deliver the same , and conferre with them about the matter , whereunto he found them exceeding well inclined . in the way going thither , he dealt with one statius buscherus , doctor calixtus his chief opposer , endeavouring to mollifie and withdraw him from some preposterous courses : and coming back again , he stayed a whole day at bremervorde , the residence of the most illustrious and reverend archbishop of bremen , with whom he had twice occasion of large conference , tending to give him satisfaction ( which he also received ) concerning some doubts , which he had conceived of the work . from thence passing through stade , and having insinuated unto the chief preacher of that place mr haveman some writes tending to pacification , he arrived at buxtehude , where he met with master scholvinus the pastor of the place , a learned and moderate lutheran divine , whom he confirmed in a course of conference , and correspondency , begun with doctor bergius at bremen , towards the ripening of matters belonging to pacification . then being come back to hamburg he made himself ready to return for england : and to this effect took his leave of the magistrat , and ministry of that place : some of the magistrate were very earnest with him to persevere in the prosecuting of his work , and the ministery gave him their answer in writ , shewing that they were willing to proceed ; first by way of private correspondency in writing , and then by way of publike meeting , when things should be ripened . before he went from hamburg he sent by sea to the chief prelates , who in england had assisted him , a treatise , which doctor calixtus of helmstat , had written in behalf of the work , that they might declare their judgement unto him concerning the same . then he passed again through buxtehude , and stade , where he confirmed master haveman and scholvinus , in their resolutions to moderation , and dealt again with statius buscherus , to take off the edge of his spirit against doctor calixtus . at bremen he stayed fourteen dayes , to print an information directed to all the reformed churches , concerning the councels of peace , whereunto the lutheran side doth give way , that if the same finde on the reformed side in like manner approbation , the businesse may be in due time set forward by publike authority . from bremen he went to oldenburg , where he dealt with the superintendent of that place , and by his means presented to the earl of oldenburg , that which was fit to give him information of his work . from thence he came to embden , where he stayed certain dayes , to insinuate the printed information unto the divines , both of the citie , and of the county . at groningen he did the like : from whence coming to amsterdam , he conferred with the chief divines of his acquaintance there , and sent to all the presbyteries ( which they call classes ) of north-holland , and neighbouring parts ; so many copies of the printed information , with adjoyned letters , as were requisite to be imparted unto them . from the hague he did the like unto all the presbyteries of south-holland and zealand , and of the neighboring places , as also to the synods which are to be held in every province . thus having given satisfaction to the chief of the low-countries , and used means to send information from amsterdam into helvetia , and from the hague into france , he came to zealand , and took shipping for england : where he safe arrived , and purposeth to make sute now unto all those that are able to give assistance unto so good a businesse , but chiefly to supplicate his sacred majesty , and the high and honorable court of parliament , that those good preparatives , and hopefull beginnings , so far , and with so much pains advanced , may not be suffered to fall , without profit , unto the ground , through want of all outward countenance , and help necessary to uphold such a spirituall agency . all parties have been dealt withall , their dispositions are sufficiently tryed and discovered , their leaders are all ingaged to concurre , neither hath any of the forraign churches taken offence at the carriage of the work : but every where , the princes and councellors of state have professed a great deal of liking thereunto . therefore it ought to be kept afoot , and upheld in the spirits of men for many pregnant reasons , which elsewhere are alleadged more at large : but now we will mention onely this , that as we are bound in conscience , at all times to maintain the care of brotherly love , and holy communion , in spirituall things , so now , at this time , we finde it absolutely necessary , even for our own temporall safety so to do , because if this care be not taken to heart , it is most certain , that the breaches of protestant states and churches , which have made many of them a prey unto their enemies , will , in the end , betray them all , and at last come to such a height , that they will devour and consume one another . therefore all true-hearted protestants , that are zealous for gods glory , and the safety of his church , but chiefly those that are in authority , or credit , able to dispose others ; are humbly intreated to embrace these thoughts without partiality , considering the apostles exhortation , phil. 2. 4. that every one should not look on his own things , to seek himself alone , but , that he should also lay to heart the things of others , and chiefly such as may tend most unto publike edificacation . for if we be commanded every one of us , rom. 15. 2. to please our neighbour for his good to edification : then surely we ought farre more to labour to please all , in that which is best . and if every one ought to do this , then most of all those that are eminent in place , and in credit with others : for to whom doth this duty rather belong , than unto such . as then the work ought not either to be agitated without the knowledge and consent of superiors in church and common-wealth , or to be publikely afoot without their authority , so they are called and appointed to be builders of the house of god , before all others , and this is the cause why thus we sue unto them , and would have all such as love the well-fare of sion , to second our suit . for what can be conceived more usefull to the church of god at any time , than the councels of peace are at this time ? nay , what is more necessary to prevent all manner of confusions , and disorders now growing upon all the churches , than this endeavour is ? therefore again and again , all men of gifts ought to be entreated , for the love which christians should bear unto christ jesus their saviour , for the respects due unto the commandements of god , for the comfort which the gospell of truth is able to yeeld unto their own souls , for the bowels of compassion , which they ought to bear unto the afflicted church of christ ( their spirituall mother ) and for the fear of gods dreadfull indignation , and stretched out hand , now ready to fall upon those , that presumptuously despise , and carelesly neglect his expresse commandements : i say , that all men of gifts , for these causes ought to set their hearts upon the councells of peace , and imploy their talents for mutuall edification , in shewing the means of brotherly love , of meeknesse , of righteousnesse , of humility , of mercy , and moderation , for the enlarging of the kingdom of jesus christ , whose love doth constrain us to propose , in this manner , these things without all humane respects , and maketh us earnest with freedom ( as not being ashamed of our duty ) to presse the matter thus home , upon the conscience of every one in his distinct charge and place , that at least , such as have any feeling of godlinesse , and know what the power of religion requireth in our publike profession , should not want some spirituall provocation , and awaking of their hearts towards the performance of that , which is required in the communion of saints . the true christian religion again discovered after the long and dark night of apostacy, which hath overshadowed the whole world for many ages ... by a friend to all people, especially them that feares god, and loves righteousness. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a30554 of text r213868 in the english short title catalog (wing b6044). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 56 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a30554 wing b6044 estc r213868 12739788 ocm 12739788 93097 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30554) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 93097) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 376:14) the true christian religion again discovered after the long and dark night of apostacy, which hath overshadowed the whole world for many ages ... by a friend to all people, especially them that feares god, and loves righteousness. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. 24 p. printed for thomas simmons ..., london : 1658. written by edward burrough. cf. halkett & laing (2nd ed.). end of text dated: the tenth month, 1657. reproduction of original in friends' library, london. marginal notes. eng church of england -doctrines. protestantism -early works to 1800. a30554 r213868 (wing b6044). civilwar no the true christian religion again discovered after the long and dark night of apostacy, which hath overshadowed the whole world for many age burrough, edward 1658 11114 21 0 0 0 0 0 19 c the rate of 19 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-02 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-07 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-07 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the true christian religion again discovered after the long and dark night of apostacy , which hath overshadowed the whole world for many ages ; and the profession and practise thereof witnessed unto by the scriptures . and here all may see who it is of all these sects and divers forms of religion in these nations , that are agreeable to the scriptures in what they professe and practise , and who it is that are not according thereunto ; for the line of true judgement is stretched upon all profession , and a true search into , and tryal thereof is made , and hereby it is manifest who it is , and what sort of people , that may justly claim the benefit of the protectors oath , to be protected thereby in their practises of religion , who hath bound himself to maintain and uphold that christian religion which is according to the scriptures , &c. this is written for the good of this commonwealth , and the information of all people in it . by a friend to all people , especially them that feares god , and loves righteousness . london , printed for thomas simmons , at the bull and mouth near aldersgate , 1658. the true christian religion again discovered , &c. forasmuch as oliver cromwell , called lord protector of england , scotland , and ireland , ( chief ruler according to man ) hath bound himself by an oath , and sworn that he will uphold and maintain the true reformed protestan● christian religion in the purity thereof , as it is contained in the old and new testament of the scriptures ; which oath he is bound to perform before the lord and unto all men . now it remains to be tried and proved what the christian religion is , and who it is in these nations that are of the true reformed protestant christian religion , in the purity thereof , as it is contained in the scriptures , seeing there are abundance of sects and diversities of judgements , and many assemblies and gatherings of people who are divers in their wayes , in their practices , and in their form of religion in these nations , which doth all profess the scriptures , and that their form of religion is accorco the scriptures ; but this cannot be , but it will be manifest otherwise ; for the scriptures which were given forth by the one spirit of god , bears not witness of many true ways , or unto many true religions , but unto one truth , and unto one true religion , and is the declaration of one way of life , and salvation by one jesus christ , and there is no other name under heaven given for salvation ; and they that believe in him , and receive him , they it is onely that are of the true religion , who are guided by his spirit , and changed thereby from death to life , and such hath unity with the father , and with the son , and one with another , and are not of this world , but heirs of the kindom of god , and these may own and claim a title to be defended and preserved in their exercise and practice of religion . therefore come all sorts of people , and let us try and prove who it is that is of the true religion , and who it is that he is bound to maintain and uphold by his oath : come i say , all sects and sorts of people , and appear to trial ; dare you join issue with me in this matter , to try your profession and practise of religion , whether it be according to the scriptures in the purity thereof yea or nay ; for the lord hath put it into my heart to lay you all to the line of true judgement , and to prove you whether you must be upholden and maintained in your religion , yea or nay : come claim your priviledge ; if your profession and practice in religion be according to the scriptures , then you may own your right , and the benefit of the protectors oath ; but if your profession and practice in religion be otherwise , and not according to the scriptures , then you must stand back , and defend your selves if you can , for the protector is not bound to maintain and uphold you in your practice of religion : and with this argument i shall try you all , whatsoever is professed and practised for religion , for which there is neither command nor president in scripture , is not according to the scripture ; let this fall where it may , this is truth ; and therefore all people come to trial , and receive your judgement by this rule· and first , the true religion is a walking with god in purity and holiness , a performing of good to him , and not doing any evil ; a belief in christ , and receiving of him , and a living in him , and through the operation of his spirit , to be changed into his image , and the body of sin and death put off , and a living to god in all things , and not a living to this vain world in any thing , but in all things to be guided by the spirit of christ : this in short is a description of the true religion , and they that are of this religion shall be saved in the day of the lord , and in equity and righteousness should be protected according to the oath before-mentioned , or else the oath is not performed in justice , but rather broken through transgression ; and first of all , as concerning that profession & practice in religion , which is most general in these nations i mean such as sprinkle infants , and are sprinkled being infants , professing it to be the baptism into the faith of christ , and that it is a seal of the new covenant , and of remission of sins , and that thereby people are made capable of union with christ , and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sign of regeneration , &c. this is practised and professed by many for religion , but this practice and doctrine is not according to the scripture , being it was never commanded , nor any example for it in scripture ; therefore all ye through all these nations that are made christians , and ownes your title in christianity , and a right to fellowship with christ , and that ye are joyned to the church , and become members of christ , because you were sprinkled when you were infants , ( and all ye that teach this for doctrine , and practice it for religion ) you are not of the true christian religion in the purity thereof , as it is contained in the scriptures . this i do affirm ; therefore stand you by , for what you practise and professe , there is neither command nor president in scripture ; if you could shew any , you are now called , and a necessity is put upon you to make use of your knowledge , if you would be protected in this commonwealth in your practise of religion ; likewise you sing , and give to sing davids psalmes in rime and meeter , professing it is to the glory and honor of god ; ye practice this as an ordinance of god , as a part of his worship , and as a part of your religion ; but this practice and profession also is manifest not to be according to scriptures , because it was never commanded , neither is there any president for this practice in the scriptures , in gospel-times : therefore in this part of your religion you cannot justly own to be protected and maintained , because the protectors oath reaches not to uphold & maintain any such practices in religion , which is not according to the scriptures , likewise all ye that meets together to exercise your religion , and to worship god in temples made with hands , set apart by you for that practice , professing them to be churches of christ , this is not according , but contrary to the scriptures , which saith , god dwells not in temples made with hands ; neither did the saints of old constantly practice any such thing , but it was the persecutors that met in temples made with hands , who cast out , and hailed the apostles out of such temples , so that in this practice you cannot justly own to be protected , as not being a practice in religion according to scriptures . likewise all ye whose ministers preacheth for hire , and have hire for preaching , so much a year , and so much a sermon at a town , or a parish in a setled place , and who takes tythes , and compells people to pay tythes by a law ; such are not the ministers of christ ; and ye that uphold such for ministers of christ , are false in judgement , and blind in understanding , and are not of that christian religion which is according to scriptures in the purity thereof , neither ministers nor people , for the ministers of christ never acted any such thing ; it was the false prophets , and false apostles that preached for hire , and for gifts and rewards ; neither did the saints and churches of christ look upon them that acted those things , to be ministers of christ , but on the contrary , declared against them to be deceivers ; so that all you people , and you professed ministers that acts those things that the false prophets acted , and all you people that loves to have it so , and gives hire to your ministers for preaching , and consenteth unto it , none of you are of the christian religion , as it is held forth in the scriptures , because this part of your practice in religion is not according , but contrary to scriptures : now substracting all these in these nations from the whole which practiseth and professeth these things mentioned for ordinances of god , and for his worship , none of you are of the true christian religion as it is held forth in the scriptures , because these things which you practise for religion , is not held forth in all the scriptures by any example or command ; likewise you are of the greatest number of people in all these nations ▪ and that practice and profession in religion which the greatest number follow and exercise themselves in , cannot be the true christian religion , because the scripture saith , few are in the straight way that leads to life , to wit , in the pure and true religion ; but many are in the broad way that leads to destruction ; and such that are the greatest number who are in the broad way , are not in the religion in the purity thereof , as it is held forth in the scriptures ; likewise many of ye who practise those things mentioned for religion , are yet unconverted to god , but lives in wickedness , in the pride and vanities , and in all the evil of this world , in double-dealing , in drunkenness , in whoredom , & in the works of darkness ; therefore you are not of the true christian religion , neither do you walk with god in purity and holiness , neither are you changed by christ into his image , nor are guided by his spirit , neither do you live to god in any thing , but to this world in all things ; and your religion is manifest not to be according to the scriptures , but contrary ; and so let all people consider whether or no you must be maintained in your religion . come forth and plead your cause all ye that are called presbyterians , and independents , and all others , stand up , and prove if you can , your practice in religion to be according to scriptures ; but seing no man is able to prove these things mentioned , which is practised by you for religion , to wit , sprinkling of infants , and singing davids experiences in rime and meeter , and worshipping god in set-places , as idol-temples , and preaching for , and giving great s●ms of money for preaching , with other things practised by you for religion ; neither were these things ever commanded in scriptures ; neither is there any example for the practise of these things in scripture by any of the lords people , & therefore you cannot justly own a title in the protectors oath , to be maintained and upheld by vertue thereof in these your practises of religion ; for it appears he is but bound onely to uphold and maintain that religion which is according to scriptures , and not them who practiseth those things for religion which are not according , but contrary to the scriptures ; likewise all ye that are called gathered churches , who holds forth for doctrine that the scriptures are the word , ( by which the world was made ) and that the scriptures are the foundation ; and that the scriptures are the way to salvation ; & that the letter and the spirit are unseparable ; and that the scriptures are both the writings and the thing signified ; and that except a man be baptized with water , he cannot be saved ; with such like doctrines which have been held forth by some professing themselves to be of the church of christ ; all you are manifest not to be of the christian religion , because those doctrines are not according , but rather contrary to the scriptures : likewise all ye whose practise in the exercise of religion is but by imitation from the scriptures , and you are not led by the spirit of the father in what you speak , & practise , you are not of the true christian religion wch the scripture speaks of ; for the sons of god , & who are of the true religion , are led by the spirit of god , & not by their own thoughts & imaginations , & the traditions of men ; and all that are not led by the spirit of the father , are not of the true christian religion as it is held forth in the scriptures , and not any that are such can justly own to be protected in their religion , because it is not according to the scriptures ; likewise all ye that doth profess the things of god and christ , and that you are members of the church of christ , and professes righteousness and truth in words , and yet lives in pride and the vanities of this world , and in unrighteousness , and the customs of the heathen , which are vain ; & are not clensed from unrighteousnes , nor freed from the body of sin & death ; neither doth answer your profession wth a conversation , shewing that you are not guided with that spirit whose words you do profess , all you are hypocrites , & lives in hypocrisie , none of you are of the true christian religion as it is held forth in the scriptures ; for the exercise in true religion sheweth forth in life what is professed in words ; come try your selves , and prove your selves all sorts of people , for now your religion is to be tryed , what name soever you go under ; and all you that practise and profess those things for religion for which there is neither command nor president in scripture , your religion is concluded not to be according to scriptures , and so no title or priviledge can any of you justly own of being upheld or maintained by the protectors oath ; but as i have said , for sprinkling of infants , and singing davids experiences in rime and meeter , &c there is neither command nor president in scriptures , and therefore you that practise those things which i have mentioned for religion , are not of the true christian religion which is according to the scriptures , which is to be protected . likewise all ye that persecutes by reproaches or revilings , and cruelty , or that causeth the people of god to be persecuted ; many of you there are in these nations which professeth religion , yet are envious persons , and persecutors of the innocent , hereby it is manifest that you are not of that religion which is according to scriptures ; for the saints never persecuted any , but were themselves persecuted for righteousness sake ; so you are not to be protected in such exercise , because it is not according , but contrary to the scriptures ; for you have no example from the saints for professing and practising religion , and yet persecuting such as are of the true religion , whose consciences are truly exercised towards god , and towards all men . now seeing that it is discovered in part , who it is that are not of the true christian religion according to the scriptures ; it remains to be proved ( if there be any ) who it is that is of the true christian religion as it is held forth in the scriptures , and who it is that is to be protected in their practise and exercise of religion : and as concerning the despised and rejected people called quakers , herein i shal speak for them as a friend to them , and a lover of their ways , who is not ashamed of their practises in religion , and shall measure and try their practises in religion whether it be according to scripture , and if it prove so to be , that what they practise for religion , and holds forth for doctrine , is according to the scriptures , then why should not they own their right and priviledge to be upholden and maintained by the protectors oath , who hath sworn to uphold and maintain them and their religion , whose exercise in religion is according to scriptures , being that same people is , and hath been faithful subjects of this commonwealth . and first of all , they dare not own themselves to be christians , nor to be members of christ , nor to have any right or title to the kingdom of god , but as they witness converting by the spirit of the lord , and are changed from death to life , and from darknesse to light , and from satans power to the power of god , through the operation of the same spirit , and as in all their works and ways , and exercises in religion , they are guided by the same spirit who leadeth them out of the world , and out of all the vanities and evil works thereof ; and this is according to the scriptures , and their religion herein is justified by the scriptures , who witnesseth that christ is in them , and that they have received him through faith , and thereby are cleansed from all unrighteousnesse , and have put off , and are putting off the body of sin and death , and walks with god in purity and holinesse , being led by the spirit of god therein , and with god they have peace , being reconciled by jesus christ , who is their salvation , and they have no other ; and this is according to the scriptures . and againe as concerning their meetings , and the manner thereof , it is not contrary , but according to the scriptures ; for though they meet in many parts of these nations by great numbers , some in the open fields , and some on the mountains in some places , and sometime without doors , and sometime in houses ; all this practise is according to the scriptures ; for we read mat. 5.1 . in the days of christ , that there were great multitudes of people that followed him , and he went up into a mountain , and preached , and taught them upon the mountain ; and in matt. 14. & 14. we read that there was great multitudes that came out of the cities unto iesus into the deserts , & he had compassion toward them , and did good unto them , and at that time there was many thousands met together , as you may read , and it seems stayed whole days together , for they sate down on the grasse , and eat together , and then iesus sent the multitudes away ; and in mark 6. you may read how that multitudes came to jesus out of the cities into a desert place , and jesus began to teach them many things in that desert place , for he had compassion on the multitude ; and in luke 9. how the people again followed jesus into a desert place , and he preached un●o them the king●om of god : such meetings then was counted strange , as such meetings are now when the people of god meets together by great numbers , to preach , and to hear the kingdom of god preached ; but their meetings are according to the scriptures , for the people of god in generations past , met in the same manner as the people of god called quakers , meets now ; for somtime christ preached out of a * ship unto the people that stood on the sea shore ; & * paul kneeled down & prayed among the saints near the sea shore , at his passing into the ship ; and we read acts 2 : that there was three thousand converted at one sermon , then there must needs be a great meeting , and a great deal of people met together , such meetings now are wondred at , but such meetings are but according to scripture ; so that this part of their practise in religion is agreeable to the scriptures , and the same as the saints practise was in ages past : and as for the people of god meeting together sometime in the night-season to wait upon the lord , and sometimes sitting in silence , & waiting upon the lord & no words uttered amongst them , but every one sitting silent before the lord having received nothing from the lord to speak one to another , at which the people of the world do wonder , and falsly judg it not to be a christian exercise ; but we read in the scripture , job 2 : that job ( who was a christian , for he was a just and perfect man ) he and his friends sate upon the ground seven days , and seven nights , and spake not a word one to another ; this would be a strange thing at this day to see practised : and in jer. 8.14 . you may read , where the prophet jeremiah exhorted the people to assemble themselves , and said , let us enter into the defenced cities , and let us be silent there , for the lord our god hath put us to silence ; but such a practise now is thought strange by the people of the world , who are not acquainted with the ways of god ; who are wise in their own eyes , and knows not what it is to wait upon the lord in silence , who never yet was put to silence in themselves by the lord ; and you may read ezek. 3 : where the prophet sate down amo●g the people of the captivity , and they were astonished seven days ; and at the end of seven days , ( and not before ) the word of the lord came to the prophet ; so that you see it was the practise of the servants of the lord oftentimes to sit and wait upon the lord in silence , though people wonder at such meetings now ; and we do not read that there was alwayes speaking among the saints in the churches when they were met together ; but acts 2. we read that the church was met together in a place , and the holy ghost fell upon them , and then they began to speak as the spirit gave them utterance ; then it seems they had not spoken before , though they had met together in a house , and then they spoke the wonderful things of god , and some that heard , mocked ; and others said they were full of new wine ; even as the people of the world do at this day when any of the people of the lord are moved to speak as the spirit gives utterance ; so that sometime to sit in silence being met together to wait upon the lord , as many of the servants of the lord do in this nation , is a practise of religion , and not contrary , but according to the scriptures , for many of the servants and assemblies of the lords people practised the same thing in ages past , as the servants of the lord do at this day ; & so this practise is to be upholden and maintained , because it is proved to be according to the scriptures , for the same thing was practised heretofore ; and we read acts 20.7 . that the church met in the night , for paul continued his sermon till midnight : and as for their practise in speaking , either man or woman as the spirit gives utterance , this is according to the scriptures , though it be much wondred at , and cryed against by the wise men and people of this age , for we read act. 2. that they spoke in their meeting as the spirit gave them utterance , without studying before-hand what to say ; & the lord promised that sons and daughters should prophesie ; & in act. 21.9 . we read of one that had four daughters that did prophesie ; & divers other places in scripture doth shew that women * laboured in the gospel , which doth prove that a woman speaking & declaring the things of god , is not contrary , but according to the scriptures , and that any who are moved of the lord , may declare the things of god , man or woman ; and the apostle saith , 1 pet. 4.10 . as every man hath received the gift , even so minister the same one to another ; so that this practise in religion is proved to be according to the scriptures . and as concerning their call to the ministry , some are called from their ordinary callings , as from the plough , or from handicraft work or tradings , or such like : this is according to the scriptures also , for we read matt. 4.18 , 19. where the disciples were called from their nets , and some were called from the receit of custom ▪ and we read amos 7. that he was a herdsman , & a gatherer of sycamore fruit , & * elisha was called from the plough ; and some others were called from keeping of sheep : so that their call to the ministry , and practise in the ministry , is according to the scriptures ; for the servants of the lord in former ages were called to the ministry after the same manner ; so in that they do agree to the scripture both in ministry and ministring , and so may own protection herein by the protectors oath . and as concerning their going up and down through the countries , and from city to city , and from one town to another , and from one nation to another , this is according to the scriptures , though some seek occasion thereby against them , and unjustly takes them as for vagabonds , and executes their envy upon them , yet it was the apostles practise , as you may read in the book of acts , where the apostles travelled from countrey to countrey , and from one city to another ; and though some of the servants of the lord are moved now to speak and dispute in the markets , and reprove sin in the gates , and in the streets , and in the high-ways , and threatning gods judgements against the wicked , all these things are according to the scripture , and their practise herein is justified by the scriptures ; for we read acts 17.17 . that paul disputed in the synagogues with the iews , and with the devout persons , and in the market dayly with them that met with him ; and we read jer. 7. that he was commanded to stand in the gate of the lords house , and to speak to all that passed into it . and jer. 26. we read that he was commanded to stand in the court of the lords house , without doors , and to speak to all the cities of judah . and we read in the booke of jonah , how he was commanded to go through the streets , and to reprove sin , and to threaten gods judgements against the wicked ; and these practises were strange in that generation , as they are at this day unto the world , who are not acquainted with the ways of god ; but all people may see , though the servants of the lord do practise these things now as they are moved , their practise herein is according to the scriptures , for the servants of the lord in former ages acted the same things ; so that in this practise the servants of the lord ought not to be persecuted , but protected and maintained in it , and that by the protectors oath , because it is proved to be according to the scriptures , which he is sworn to maintain . and as concerning their crying against such , and declaring against them by word and writing , that preach for hire , and divines for money , and seeks for their gain from their quarter , and such who goes for gifts and rewards , and hath sums of money by the year for preaching , and though they deny such that acts those things , to be ministers of christ ; this practise also is according to the scriptures , for we read mich. 3. that he declared against such as preached for hire , and divined for money , and such were no ministers of christ . and we read isa. 56. that he declared against them that sought for their gain from their quarter , which were greedy covetous men , such as is many of the teachers of england . again , we read matt. 23. where christ declared against such , & did not own such to be any of his ministers , who were called of men master , who stood praying in the synagogue , and had the chief places in the assemblies . and we read in 2 pet. 2. and in many other places , where the apostles declared against such , and denyed such to be ministers of christ , that preached for filthy lucre , and took gifts and rewards for preaching , and by feigned words made merchandize of souls , who were heady and high minded men , as you may read 2 tim. 3. chap. and such men were denyed to be ministers of christ , by the prophets , christ , and his apostles . so that all people may see this practice of the servants of the lord at this day , who are moved to declare against such men that acts these things mentioned , is perfectly according to the scriptures ; for the servants of the lord spoken of in scripture , did the very same things in this particular , as is done at this day ; therefore for this practise they ought not to be persecuted as they have been , but ought to be protected and maintained in it , and that by the protectors oath , who hath sworn to maintain that practice which is according to the scripture ; and to declare against them that preach for hire , and have great sums of money for preaching , and that are called of men master , and that takes gifts and rewards of people for preaching ; i say , to do thus is a practise which the scripture gives a large example for ; and so it must needs be according to the scriptures , and ought to be protected in this government . again , as concerning their denying to respect persons , or to bow with hat or knee , in respect of worshipping any creature , this also is according to the scriptures , though the people of the world , who live in pride and vain customs , are offended with them in this practise ; for we read that god commanded not to bow to any likeness , exod. 20. and we read james 2. the apostle exhorts not to have the faith of our lord jesus christ with respect of persons , but condemns that practise of respecting such as are in goodly apparel , and gay clothing , and have gold rings , above a poor man in vile rayment ; and he saith plainly , they that have respect to persons , commits sin ; and we read that the pharisees said of christ , he respected no mans person ; and he is our example . and we read that the three children was cast into the fiery fornace with indignation before the king , being bound before him , and cast into the fornace , dan. 3. and we read that paul and all the servants of god , did thou kings , and princes , and rulers , and they spoke plainly to all men , and durst not give flattering titles to any , as you may read in job 32. so that all people may see the practise in denying to respect persons , and in speaking plainly , without flattering titles to any man , denying to put off the hat , or bowing to men in gay clothing , or giving place to such that wear gold rings , and have goodly apparel , before such as have vile raiment , is justly according to the scriptures , though people stumble at such practises ; and the people of god may claim to be maintained in this practise of their religion , seeing it is proved to be commanded in scriptures , not to respect the person of any man ; and also it was the saints practise , and therefore herein they ought not to be condemned , but ●ustified , as being a practice in religion agreeing with the scriptures . and as concerning their denying obedience to magistrates in some causes , this is according to the scripture also ; for we read that the rulers commanded the apostles , and straitly charged them to speak no more in the name of jesus ; yet the apostles did not obey magistrates herein , neither did they cease to preach in the name of jesus ; and though christ was commanded , or besought to depart out of their coasts , yet he did not obey their request ; and we read that the three children were commanded to worship the great image , yet they did not obey this command of the king . so that all people may see it is lawful for the saints to disobey commands of kings & rulers , where they command that to be done or spoken which god doth not , but the contrary : and i say again , where kings or rulers , parents or masters doth command or require any thing of them that are under them which is not according to god , in such causes subjects , or people , and children and servants , are free , and not required of the lord to subject to any thing which is not justly according to him ; but yet we say , that subiects , and people , and children , and servants ▪ ought to be subject to them that have rule over them , in all things which is according to god in truth and righteousness ; and by the law of god all people are bound to obey those that have rule over them , and not to disobey them in any thing which may stand with the exercise of a good conscience to god ; so that though the people of the lord now do deny to depart out of a town or place , and though they will not cease to declare against sin and wickedness in teachers and people , though a magistrate command it , this is but according to the scriptures , for the apostles went on boldly , declaring the name of the lord after they were forbidden ; and thus the servants of the lord doth now , they freely declare the way of salvation , and calls people to repent , and reproves iniquity in ●ll sorts of people , though wicked men command them to the contrary , and falsly charges them that they are disobedient to government and authority , though they are not , no more then the servants of god , and apostles of christ , who in the same causes , did the same things ; and the lord hath commanded to cry aloud , and not to spare , but to tell people of their transgressions ; and therefore many of the lords servants doth deny to be silent , or to cease from declaring against sin , though a magistrate command it : and christ hath commanded not to swear at all ; and therefore many doth deny to swear upon any account , in any place , though the magistrates do command it . and the servants of the lord doth deny to put off a hat , or to bow in respect of any mans person , though a magistrate command it ; for the scripture doth say , he that respects persons , commits sin ; so that all people may see that what the servant of the lord doth in these things , are not contrary , but according to the scriptures ; for all these things were commanded & practised by the saints in former ages , & they said it was better to obey god then man , and we ought to do it in all things , and that according to the scriptures too . so that in all these practises in religion the scriptures justifies them , and be●rs witness to them , and they might claim protection in the exercise of them by the protectors oath ; but if they be not maintained , but persecuted for the practise of these things , then will the light in every mans conscience witness the oath is broken , and not kept ; for it extends to uphold and maintain the practice of religion which is according to the scriptures , as these is proved to be . and as concerning their doctrines wch the world stumbles at , yet their doctrines are according to the scripture ; though they say , chr. is the light of the world , & lighteth every man , or hath given light to every man that cometh into the world , this is according the scripture , as you may read , joh. 8.12 . & ioh. 1.9 . and though they turn people from darkness to the light of christ within them , & exhorts people to hearken to that within them , & not to seek a christ without them , to ascend or descend to fetch him , these doctrines are perfectly according to the scripture ; for you may read acts 26.18 . paul saith he was sent to turn people from darkness to the light , and from the power of satan to the power of god ; and rom. 10 you may read the apostle saith , what saith it , the word is nigh thee in thy heart , that is , the word of faith which we preach ; and they were not to say , who shall ascend , or descend to fetch christ . and though they tell people they must witness christ in them , or else they cannot be saved ; this also is according to the scriptures , as you may read 2 cor. 13. chap. the apostle saith , jesus christ is in you , except ye be reprobates . and though they say , christ is the word of god , and doth deny the scriptures to be the word by which the world was made ; this doctrine also is according to the scriptures ; for we read rev. 19.13 . that the name of jesus is called the word of god . and luke 1. of the scriptures it is said , they are a declaration by those which were eye-witnesses and ministers of the word . and though they press people to perfection , and doth say , men may be perfect upon earth , and compleat in christ jesus , this doctrine also is according to the scriptures ; for you may read 1 cor. 2. chap : and 6 : of some that were perfect , who were men upon earth ; and the ministers of christ spoke wisdom among them that were already perfect ; and col. 2·10 . the apostle saith unto the church who were men in this life upon earth , he saith to them , ye are compleat in him . and though they press the people to live without sin , and doth say , they that are born of god doth not commit sin ; this also is according to the scripture ; for it is christs command , mat : 5 : be perfect , as your father in heaven is perfect : and 1 joh. 3. there it is spoken of some that were the sons of god already , and he saith , whosoever is born of god , doth not commit sin , for he cannot sin because he is born of god ; and saith he , a● he is , [ christ ] so are we in this present world . and now all people may understand that in all these doctrines which they do hold forth , they do fully agree with the scriptures ; and they bear witness to the truth of their doctrines , that the servants of god , and the apostles of christ , did preach the very same things for doctrine as is done at this day ; and so these doctrines are not to be wondred at , not so much as they are by the wicked to be cryed against for heresie and error ; and these few particulars onely i have mentioned , at which the people of this age the most stumble at ; and all other things whatsoever which is held forth for doctrines unto people , i am able to prove them by the scriptures , that in all things they are according to the scripture , & not different or contrary to the scriptures ; so that all people may take notice and see that whatsoever they do practice for religion , and holds forth for doctrine , they do herein justly according to the scriptures , and they justifie their practises & doctrines in these things mentioned , and in whatsoever else can be objected by any man . and this i shall take in hand to prove before all the world , that the people of god called quakers , doth practice nothing for religion , or preach for doctrine , but what is perfectly according to the scriptures of the old and new testament , and in the fulfilling of them ; and so they are proved to be of that true christian religion which is according to the scriptures , and so may fully claim protection and preservation in their practice of religion : and this is to be considered by the protector and all magistrates and people in these nations , that they may know what the true christian religion is , and who is in it , and who is not in it ; and for this purpose is this written , for the satisfaction of all people , that they may see who it is that hath a right and priviledg to be protected & upholden by vertue of the oath . likewise all may understand , that what such practice and profes for religion , is not without good ground , but that the very same things were practised by them that were of the true christian religion , and preached for doctrine by them that were saints , which is now practised and held forth by the people of god ; and the scriptures doth fully bear witness in all things , shewing that such are guided by the same spirit which the saints were guided by in ages past ; and as they had , so have these the testimony that they are of god , and that the whole world lies in wickedness . and as concerning their being persecuted by many of the rulers , priests and people , though they be sent to prison , and banished out of towns , and whipped and beaten , and scorned , and reviled , this is also according to the scriptures , and the scriptures is fulfilled upon them ; for the same things were done to the apostles , and to the servants of the lord , as you may read through the acts , the people mocked the apostles , and slandered them , and said they were full of new wine , and the chief priests conspired against christ and the apostles , and incensed the magistrates against them , and the magistrates put christ and many of the apostles in prison , and caused them to be whipped and beaten , & to be banished , & many other cruelties done unto them ; the scripture is full to prove this , from the beginning , to the end of it ; and christ said , they shall persecute you , and speak all manner of evil of you for my names sake , and as they have done unto me , so shall they do unto you ; ye shall be hated of nations : and the apostle said , all that will live godly in christ iesus , shall suffer persecution . so that all people may see , though the people of the lord be persecuted , and reviled , and imprisoned , and cruelty done unto them ; and though it be done by the chief magistrates , and chief rulers , and the wise men of this age , all this is according to the scriptures , and that the scriptures might be fulfilled ; and the same things which are now done unto the people of god , were done unto the people of god in ages past by the same instruments , to wit , the rulers and magistrates ; and by the same means , to wit , by the information , and false accusations of the chief priests and teachers ; in jeremiah you may read how the priests sought to take away his life ; and you may read how the chief priests consulted against christ , and how they complained to the magistrates against him and the apostles ; and the same things are now come to pass , and we do not strange at it , for it is the chief priests of england that doth most seek the persecution , and causes the people of god to be persecuted by their complaining and petitioning to the magistrates ; so that in all these things , not onely what is practised and preached for doctrine , but also in what is suffered , is perfectly according to the scriptures , and all people that are not blind , may see that this religion is in all things agreeable with the scriptures , both in what they do and in what they suffer , so that this is given forth for the good information of the protector , and all magistrates , that they may hear the tryal of all things , and may not falsly conjecture or suppose , and thereupon give judgement without any true knowledge , let them search the scripture , and try ; i hope the worst of men hath so much conscience , that they will stand in awe of the breach of their own oaths , and that they will perform unto the lord and unto all men , what they have firmly ( and not compell'd ) sworn to do ; and thus it may be hoped the woful persecution wil cease , which is lamentable to be declared , how the people of the lord have sufferd in many things , even them whose religion is proved to be according to the scriptures , who practice nothing for religion , neither holds forth any thing for doctrine but that which is perfectly agreeable to the scriptures , as all people hereby may understand ; which religion the protector hath sworn to maintain and uphold ; then who shall presume to persecute the people whose practise in religion is proved to be the very same which his oath extends to maintain ? surely no men will be so impudent , or shew such rebellion to government , as to endeavour to break down and destroy that people whose religion is proved to be justly that which he is by oath bound to maintain ; some heretofore before this oath was taken , might plead ignorance , and say they knew not the mind of the protector ; but now his mind is fully discovered , and he doth not onely allow , but also hath solemnly sworne to maintain and uphold that christian religion which is according to scriptures ; and it is proved what people it is whose religion is so ; and i say again , that same people mentioned doth practice nothing , neither holds forth any thing for doctrine , but it is either commanded , or there is president for it in scripture , or agreeable thereto ; and therefore that same people is of the true christian religion which the lord protector hath bound himselfe to maintain , by oath in the face of the whole nations , so that none of the magistrates now can plead ignorance ▪ for as he is sworn to uphold the people of god in their religion , so are they bound to be true to him and the government , and to fulfil the good laws , and his oaths and enterprises ; so that i say again , it may be hoped for the time to come , for protection , and to be maintained , and no longer persecuted and destroyed in their persons and estates , as formerly they have been , if men regard their own oaths , or there be any truth or sincerity in the heart of man ; and i say , by this very oath mentioned might the people of god own and claim protection and defence in their way and practise of religion , which is so plainly proved to be according to the scriptures , though none of them desired such an oath for their protection , or sought after it ; yet being voluntarily instituted and taken , why may not they own the extent of it , which reacheth to them more then to any besides , as is clearly described ; and not for their own sakes altogether , do they own the benefit of it , but that he which hath taken it , may be clear in the sight of the lord in performing of his oath , for his felicity , and the increase and continuance of good government , they desire as much as their own protection ; and they would not have any man so wicked , or the cause of perpetual infamy to be given to this nation so much , as that any thing should be destroyed or broken down , which is sworn to be upheld and maintained in the nation , lest the heathen rulers rise in condemnation against the doers thereof : these , with many other arguments which might be produced , presseth many to endeavour the fulfilling of the said oath , for his own sake who hath taken it . and that first of all , by that oath the people of god may own protection in this commonwealth , because their religion is according to the scriptures , &c. secondly , that some people might also own protection in this commonwealth , in that the most of them , if not all , have been true and faithful subjects of this commonwealth , and hazarded lives and estates for the establishing of such a government wherein the people of god might have full liberty for the exercise of their pure conscience . again , they may own protection in this commonwealth as being at this day a harmless and innocent people , not being offensive to any mans person or estate , or in any other thing , ( except to sin and wickedness , and the workers thereof ) and i say again , that they do not desire any thing but the welfare , and the encrease , and the establishment of this present government , wherein it is according to god : and this is written for the information of all sorts of people , that they may know unto what sort of people the protectors oath extends to uphold and maintain ; and as concerning all those whose practise in religion and doctrines are not according to scripture , but contrary to it , as is manifest , and so not to be maintained and uphold●n in their profession and practice of religion by the protectors oath ; yet it is not desired that such should be destroyed , or overthrown , or bound , or imprisoned , or any cruelty done to them , though their practice be not according to scriptures ; but it s desired that such may live in peace in the commonwealth , enjoying their religion to themselves without any molestation from any ou●ward law , or outward power , for many would not that any should be compelled to , or from any exercises in religion by an outward law , but let them defend themselves in their religion , from those who may be moved of the lord to reprove them , or declare against them , or covince them ; so that many would have religion to defend it self , and that the magistrates with their laws may preserve the peace in the commonwealth , and mens persons and estates , and not their opinions and judgements ; and we would they may not limit or stint tender consciences , for many may be of a tender conscience in those things wherein their consciences are not truly informed , and such should not bee condemned to death , but to b● won by sound doctrine , and instructed by those who are called of god , and so this is written that the whole nation may understand the minde of the lords servants in all these things . and let no man blame me , for i have but with an equal hand brought all sorts of people to the line of true judgement , that they may know who is to be maintained ( and who is not ) in their religion , and practises thereof . but and if that after all this , the people of god be persecuted , and violence be done to them , and injustice and unrighteousness acted upon them in this commonwealth , as of late years hath been , and yet it be suffered to be , and none taken any notice to preserve and defend them whose religion is according to scripture , which he is sworn to maintain , then i leave it to the light in all mens consciences to judge ▪ what a condition such are in whose oath is not kept , but broken ; for these things are of no less value then either breaking or keeping a mans own oath , which solemnly hath been taken ; and this is not a light thing , but to be seriously considered of both by magistrates , teachers and people in this commonwealth , yet notwithstanding all this , the people of god doth not boast in , or trust unto the arm of flesh , neither are any whit the more confident in their way , though it be proved that they ought in justice to be upholden and maintained in what they profess and practise , as aforesaid ; for their hope and confidence is onely in god , who onely is sufficient to protect and uphold his people in all their ways and exercises ; and though all men do forget their own promises and oaths , yet will not the lord forget his chosen people , to defend them from all their enemies , who hath again appeared to gather his people , after the long and dark night of apostacy , and his house and tabernacle shall be exalted over all the earth . an objection . now many may say , seeing i challenge , claim , and affirm that this religion is the true religion which is according to scripture , then they ask and say , hath there been no true religion before this ? or hath all these religions been false before ? and seeing this hath but newly appeared in the world , was there no true religion before ? and if there were any , where was it ? and what was that religion , seeing there hath not been for many ages such a religion as this is : and after this manner doth many reason and object to themselves , and raises to themselves stumblings , and conceits themselves that our forefathers were of a good way , and many of them sure were saved which was not of this religion , which did not profess and practice these things which is professed and practised by this people . answer ▪ now unto all these i do answer and say , that this religion is the true religion which is according to scriptures , as is proved already , seeing they profess and practice nothing for religion but what the scriptures doth justifie , and shews the very examples of the same things ; but that god had a people in all ages , and a feed that never bowed to baal it s believed , and such as did sincerely seek after god according to what they knew , and they were accepted of god according to what was made manifest in that age and generation ; yet the testimony of truth it self , and the way of the lord it self , for many generations hath not so clearly and purely been held forth , as it is now in this age and generation ; for now the true light hath shined , and the way of salvation is evidently made manifest , as by many witnesses and evident tokens which may be given , and was not so clearly for many ages past , held forth and known : and such who have been sincerely seeking after god , though they knew not perfectly the way unto him , neither had they such a pure testimony revealed to guide them , as now is manifest , yet such do now rejoice , and owns the way of the lord , and the seed of god is refreshed in them , and all causes of stumbling removed , and the pure light of the gospel is sprung forth more clear in this age , then in any age for many generations ; for the scripture sheweth that a dark night of apostacy hath been over the whole world , and the beast hath reigned , and the false prophet hath deceived many nations ; and the whole world hath wondered after the beast for many ages , and the beast hath made war with the saints , and hath had power to kill them , and hath put a stop many times to the appearances of god , till now at length he doth appear , and the power of hell and death shall not stop it , and they do say that they are come out of the apostacy , to the dawning of the day again , and the same power of god , and the same truth as was in the apostles days , and the same ministry by the gift of the same holy ghost as was in the apostles days , is now witnessed , and at the time of ignorance god winked , but now the eye is opened , and all is called to repentance ; so it will not excuse any man to plead how it was with our forefathers , or to say , where was this religion before these few years , and such like , for now the power of god it self is made manifest , which brings into the true religion , and all that are of god heareth it , and shall own it , and shall receive the testimony which is given : it 's known that there are many thousands which hath not yet owned it , in which there is true thirstings after god , and a zeal for him , and such are not condemned to be altogether out of religion , for such seeks his face , and the day is neither clear nor dark to them , in which they are ; and such shall own and submit to the government of christ ; and they that are not under the government , are not of the true religion ▪ as i said ; this is the time of restauration , and the lord is bringing back again , and a thorow reformation wil the lord work in the earth , such as hath not been known in ages past . there hath been a seed sown which the devil hath catched away ; but now the seed shall grow ▪ and become the greatest of all herbs , and the fowls of heaven shall lodge in the branches . and this is a plain answer to all sober people , for according to the scriptures in the times of the apostles , the day of glorious light sprung forth , and mighty was the power of god at that day , but since hath darkness overshadowed all , and antichrist hath reigned , and the whole world hath been made drunk with the wine of forn●cation , which hath been in the hand of the whore , who hath set upon the beast , and upon nations and peoples , and the gentiles hath trodden under foot the holy city of god for forty and two months ; but now is the time of restauration as hath been promised , that the lord is bringing back his people again , and the tabernacle of god shall be with men , and christ alone must reign and rule , and his kingdom set up over the whole world . and let no man be offended at what i have done ; for i have not reflected upon any mans person , but on what he practiseth for religion . london , the tenth month , 1657. the end : notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a30554e-110 * mark 4.1 , 2. luke 5 3. * act : 20 * phil. 4.3 * 1 kings 19.19 . a brief and impartial account of the nature of the protestant religion its present state in the world, its strength and weakness, with the wayes and indications of the ruine or continuance of its publick national profession / by a protestant. owen, john, 1616-1683. 1682 approx. 72 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a53667 wing o716 estc r11764 13014537 ocm 13014537 96530 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a53667) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 96530) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 394:12) a brief and impartial account of the nature of the protestant religion its present state in the world, its strength and weakness, with the wayes and indications of the ruine or continuance of its publick national profession / by a protestant. owen, john, 1616-1683. 40 p. printed by j.a., and are to be sold by benjamin alsop ..., london : 1682. written by john owen. cf. bm. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism -early works to 1800. 2005-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-05 john latta sampled and proofread 2005-05 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a brief and impartial account of the nature of the protestant religion : it s present state in the world , its strength and weakness , with the wayes and indications of the ruine or continuance of its publick national profession . by a protestant . london , printed by j. a. and are to be sold by benjamin alsop at the angel and bible in the poultrey , 1682. the state and fate of the protestant religion : the world is at this day filled with discourses about the protestant religion , and the profession of it ; and that not without cause . the publick opposition that is made unto it , the designs that are managed with policy and power for it's utter extirpation , and the confidence of many that they will take effect , must needs fill the minds of them whose principal interest and concerns lye in it , with many thoughts about the event . never was there a greater cause brought on the stage for a tryal . a cause wherein the glory of god is concerned above any thing at this day in the world. a cause wherein the most eminent prevailing powers of the earth are visibly ingaged as unto its ruine ; and whereunto all the diabolical arts of men are employed . a cause wherein those who embrace that religion , do judge that not only their lives , but the eternal welfare of them and their posterity is inevitably concerned . this cannot but fill the minds of all men with various conjectures about the issue of these things , according as their interest works in them by hopes and fears . some of them therefore do endeavour by their counsels and other wayes for the preservation and continuance of this protestant religion amongst our selves , according as they have an accession unto publick affairs ; and some whose lot is cast into a private capacity , do engage faith and prayer unto the same purpose . the enemies of it in the mean time are powerful , active and restless ; many amongst us being uncertain in their minds , as not resolved where to fix their interest , and a greater multitude like gallio , care for none of these things . this being a matter therefore wherein all men , who have any sence of religion , are so deeply concerned , it may not be unseasonable , briefly to enquire what is this protestant religion which is so contended about ; what is it's present state in the world ; what it 's strength and weakness as unto it's publick profession , and what is like to be the issue of the present contest . this is that which the ensuing leaves are designed unto ; and it is hoped they may be of use unto some , to extricate their minds from involved fruitless thoughts , to direct them in their duty and to bring them unto an acquiescency in the will of god. the protestant religion may be considered either as it is religion in general , that is , christan religion ; or as it is distinct from and opposite unto another pretended profession of the same religion , whereon it is called protestant . in the first sence of it , it derives it's original from christ and his apostles . what they taught to be believed , what they commanded to be observed in the worship of god ; all of it and nothing but that , is the protestant religion . nothing else belongs unto it , in nothing else is it concerned . these , therefore are the principles of the religion of protestants , whereinto their faith and obedience are resolved 1. what was revealed unto the church by the lord christ and his apostles , is the whole of that religion which god will and doth accept . 2. so far as is needful unto the faith , obedience and eternal salvation of the church , what they taught , revealed and commanded , is contained in the scriptures of the new testament , witnessed unto and confirmed by those of the old. 3. all that is required of us that we may please god , be accepted with him , and come to the eternal enjoyment of him , is that we truely believe what is so revealed and taught , yielding sincere obedience unto what is commanded in the scriptures . upon these principles , protestants confidently propose their religion unto the tryal of all mankind . if in any thing it be found to deviate from them , if it exceeds in any instance what is so revealed , taught and commanded ; if it be defective in the faith or practice of any thing that is so revealed or commanded , they are ready to renounce it . here they live and dye , from this foundation they will not depart : this is their religion . and if these principles will not secure us , as unto our present acceptance with god in religion , and the eternal enjoyment of him , he hath left all mankind at an utter uncertainty to make a blind venture for an invisible world ; which is altogether inconsistent with his infinite wisdom , goodness and benignity . being in possession of these principles of truth and security from christ and his apostles , it belongs unto the protestant religion not to change or forgo them , and to repose our confidence in the infallibility or authority of the pope of rome , or of the church whereof he is the head. for these principles of assurance are such as every way become the wisdom and goodness of god ; and such as that our nature is not capable in this life , of those which are higher , or of a more illustrious evidence . let the contrary unto either of these be demonstrated , and we will renounce the protestant religion . to forgo them for such as are irreconcilable unto divine wisdom and goodness , as also to the common reason of mankind , is an effect of the highest folly and of strong delusion . for that all mankind should be obliged to place all their confidence and assurance of pleasing god , of living unto him , and coming unto the enjoyment of him for eternity , on the pope of rome and his infallibility , however qualified and circumstantiated , considering what these popes are and have been , is eternally irreconcilable unto the greatness , wisdom , love and kindness of god ; as also unto the whole revelation made of himself by jesus christ. the principles of protestant religion before mentioned , do every way become , are highly suited unto the nature and goodness of god. no man living shall ever be able to instance in one tittle of them , that is not correspondent with divine goodness and wisdom . but on the first naming of this other way , no man who knows any thing what the pope is , and what is his church , if he be not blinded with prejudice and interest , will be able to satisfie himself that it is consistent with infinite goodness and wisdom to commit the salvation of mankind , which he values above all things , unto such a security . neither hath this latter way any better consistency with humane wisdom , or the common reason of mankind ; namely , that those who are known , many of them to be better and wiser men than those popes , should resolve their religion , and therein their whole assurance of pleasing god , with all their hopes of a blessed eternity , into the authority and infallibility of the pope and his church ; seeing many of them , the most of them , especially for some ages , have been persons wicked , ignorant , proud , sensual and brutish in their lives . this then is the foundation of the protestant religion , in that it is built on those principles , which are every way suited unto the divine nature and goodness , as also satisfactory unto humane reason ; with a refusal of them which are unworthy of infinite wisdom to give , and the ordinary reason of men to admit or receive . secondly , as the name protestant is distinctive with respect unto some other pretended profession of christian religion ; so it derives this denomination from them who in all ages after the apostasie of the church of rome came to be expresly antichristian , departed from the communion of it , opposed it , reformed themselves , and set up the true worship of god according unto the degrees and measures of gospel light which they had received . this was done successively in a long tract of time through sundry ages , until by an accession of multitudes , princes and people , unto the same profession , they openly testified and protested against the papal apostasie and tyranny , whence they became to be commonly called protestants . and the principles whereon they all of them proceeded from first to last , which constitute their religion as protestant , were these that follow . 1. that there are in the scripture , prophesies , predictions and warnings , especially in the book of the revelation , and the second epistle of paul the apostle to the thessalonians , that there should be a great apostasie or defection in the visible church from the faith , worship and holiness of the gospel ; and in opposition unto what was appointed of christ , the erection of a worldly , carnal , antichristian church-state , composed of tyranny , idolatry and persecution , which should for a long time oppress the true worshippers of christ with bloody cruelty , and at last be it self consumed with the spirit of his mouth , and destroyed by the brightness of his coming . this defection was so plainly foretold , as also the beginning of it in a mystery of iniquity designed even in the dayes of the apostles , that believers in all ages did expect the accomplishment of it by the introduction of an antichristian state and power , though the manner of it was hidden from them , until it was really fulfilled . i say from the dayes of the apostles , and the giving out of those prophesies and predictions of the coming of antichrist and an apostate church state with him , all christians in all ages , did believe and expect that it should come , until it 's real coming in a way and manner unexpected confounded their apprehensions about it . 2. their second principle as protestants was , that this defection and antichristian church state so plainly foretold by the holy ghost in the scriptures , was openly and visibly accomplished in the church of rome , with the nations that had subjected themselves unto the yoke thereof . therein they found and saw , all that tyranny and oppression , all that pride and self exaltation above every thing that hath the name of god upon it , all that idolatry and false worship , all that departure from the faith of the gospel , all that contempt of evangelical obedience , which were foretold to come in under , and constitute the fatal apostasie . 3. hereon their third principle was , that as they valued the glory of god , the honour of christ and the gospel , their own salvation , and the good of the souls of others , they were obliged to forsake and renounce all communion with that apostate church , though they saw that their so doing , would cost many of them their dearest blood , or lives . 4. they were convinced hereon , that it was their duty publickly to protest against all those abominations , to reform themselves as unto faith , worship and conversation , according unto the rules before laid down , as those that are fundamental unto christian religion . these were the principles whereon christian religion as it is protestant , was reintroduced into the world , after it had been not only obscured , but almost excluded out of it , as unto it's publick profession . and these principles are avowed by all true protestants , as those whereon they are ready at all times , to put their cause and profession on the trial. the way whereby the profession of this protestant religion was introduced on these principles and made publick in the world under the antichristian apostasie , was the same whereby christian religion entred the world under paganisme ; namely , by the prayers , preaching , writings , sufferings and holiness of life of them who embraced it and were called to promote it . and herein their sufferings for the number of them that suffered , and variety of all cruel preparations of death , are inexpressible . it is capable of a full demonstration ▪ that those who were slain by the sword and otherwise destroyed for their testimony unto christ and the gospel , in opposition unto the papal apostasie and idolatry , did far exceed the number of them that suffered for the christian religion in all the pagan persecutions of old. a plant so soaked and watered with the blood of the martyrs , will not be so easily plucked up as some imagine . nay it is probable it will not go out without more blood ( of sufferers i mean ) than it was introduced by ; which yet no man knows how to conceive or express . but it had no sooner fixed its profession in some nations , but it was loaden with all manner of reproaches , charged with all the evils that fell out in the world after its entrance ; and by all sorts of arts and pretences rendred suspected and hateful unto princes and potentates . whatever is evil in or unto mankind , especially unto the interest of great men , was with great noise and clamour charged on it . for so it was in the first entrance of the christian religion under paganisme . there was neither plague nor famine , nor earthquake , nor inundation of water , nor war , nor invasion by enemies , but all was charged on that new religion . and the reason hereof was , not only the hatred of the truth through the love of sin and unrighteousness , and an ingrafted power of superstition through blind devotion , but principally because for a long tract of time , the whole of the profession of religion had been suited unto the secular interests of men , supplying them under various pretences , with power , domination , territories , titles , revenues , wealth , ease , grandeur , and honour , with an insinuation into and power over the consciences of all sorts of persons ; a thing very desirable to men of corrupt minds , and easily turned into an engine unto very bad and pernicious ends. that the whole complex , and all it's parts in their various motions and operations , of the christian religion in the papacy , is framed and fitted unto these ends , so as to give satisfaction unto all corrupt and ambitious desires in men , is palpable unto all that are not wilfully blind . but this protestant religion so introduced , stated the interest of christian religion in a way and design utterly inconsistent herewith and destructive of it . and this was to give all glory and honour to god and christ alone , and to teach the guides of the church to be humble , holy , zealous ensamples of the flock , utterly renouncing all secular power and domination , with territories , titles and great revenues on the account of their office , and the discharge of it . and was it any wonder that those who were in possession of three parts of the power , and a third part of the revenue of most nations in europe , should look on this principle as the worst of devils , and so represent it , as to frighten above half the monarchs of these nations from once looking steadily upon it , whereby they might have easily discovered the cheat that was put upon them . and thus was it with the first planters of christian religion with respect unto the pagans , act. 19. 27. but herein many labour to make a difference between the introduction of religion under paganisme , and the reformation of it under antichristianisme . for they say that the first professors of christian religion for three hundred years endured their persecutions with all patience , never once stirring up either wars or commotions in the defence of their profession . but since , upon and after the introduction of protestant religion , there have been many tumults and disorders , many popular commotions and wars which have been caused thereby . for if all the professors of it had quietly suffered themselves to have been killed with the sword , or hanged , or burned , or tortured to death in the inquisition , or starved in dungeons ( and more was not required of them ) there would have been no such wars about religion in the world. for their enemies intended nothing but to destroy them in peace and quietness , without the least disturbance unto the civil rule among men . i say this difference did not arise from any difference in the religion of the one and the other , nor of the principles of those by whom they were professed . but it hath proceeded from external causes and circumstances , that were greatly different between the primitive christians and the protestants in some places and nations . for the primitive christians , whose story we have , were all of them placed in and subject unto one empire . in that whole empire and all the provinces of it , there was not one law , custom or usage giving the least countenance unto right of protection of liberty . there was not one prince , ruler , senate , governour , that had the least pretence of legal right to protect or defend them in their profession against the will and law of the emperour or empire . the outward rights of religion were no way allied in any thing unto the civil rights of men . however numerous therefore the christians were in those dayes , they were all absolutely private persons without pretence of law or right to defend themselves ; in which state of things it is the undoubted principle of all protestants , that where men are persecuted meerly on the account of religion without relation unto the civil rights and liberties of mankind , their duty is patiently to suffer without the least resistance . but it hath been otherwise upon the reformation and since . for the protection and preservation of religion was taken up by sundry potentates , free princes and cities , who had a legal right and power to protect themselves and their subjects in the profession of it . it hath been and is at this day incorporated into the laws , rights and interests of sundry nations , which ought to be defended . and no instance can be given of any people defending themselves in the profession of the protestant religion by arms , but where together with their religion their enemies did design and endeavour to destroy those rights , liberties and priviledges , which not only the light of nature , but the laws and customs of their several countreys did secure unto them as a part of their birth-right inheritance . and in some places though the name of religion hath been much used on the one side and the other ; yet it hath been neither the cause nor occasion of the wars and troubles that have been in them . and this makes their case utterly different from that of the primitive christians . this religion being thus reinstated in many nations , it brought forth fruit in them , even as the gospel did at its first preaching in the places whereinto it came , col. 1. 6. it brought forth fruit in them by whom it was received , such as is the proper fruit of religion ; namely it did so in light , knowledge , truth , in holiness , in the real conversion of multitudes unto god , in good works , in the spiritual comfort of believers in life and death , with all other fruits of righteousness which are to the praise of god. thereby also was the worship of god vindicated from idolatry and superstition , and restored in many places unto it's primitive simplicity and purity . it brought also no small advantage even unto those nations , both princes and their subjects , by whom the profession thereof was never received ; as christian religion also did of old unto the pagan world. for hereby it is that the kings and potentates of christendom , even those of the roman profession , have much eased themselves of that intolerable yoke of bondage that was on them unto the popes pretended power and his impositions . for whilest all nations were in subjection to him , it was at their utmost hazard that any one king or state should contend with him about any of his demands or assumptions . for he could stir up what nation he pleased , and give them sufficient encouragement to avenge his quarrels on rebellious princes , which he also did in instances innumerable . but since so many nations fell off from all dependance on him and subjection to him by the light and profession of the protestant religion , there is a ballance of power against him , and an awe upon him in his presumptions , lest he should be dealt withall by others in the like manner . had these western parts of the world continued under a superstitious sense of a fealty and obedience in all things due to the pope , as they were before the reformation , the king of france himself should not so easily have rejected his personal infallibility and jurisdiction as he seems to have done ; but he hath now no way left to avenge himself but assassinations , which at this time may prove of very evil consequence unto himself . wherefore the princes of europe , as well those by whom the protestant religion is not embraced , yea is opposed and persecuted , as those by whom it is received , seem not so sensible of the benefit and advantage which doth accrew unto them all thereby . for from thence alone it is , with the interest and power which it hath obtained in the world , that they are freed in their minds and in their rule , from as base a servitude and bondage , as ever persons under their denomination were subject unto . the common people also who yet continue in the communion of the papal church , have received no small advantage by that effectual light which shines in the world from the principles of this religion , even where it is not received . for from the fear of the discoveries to be made by it , hath a curb been put upon the flagitious lives of the priests and friars , wherewith all places were defiled ; shame also with necessity having stirred them up to deliver themselves in some measure from their old stupid ignorance . many retrenchments have been made also in some of the most gross parts of idolatry , that were for many ages in general practice among them . and they are hereby also in some good measure freed from the terror of evil spirits wherewith they were continually haunted . for before the reformation , possessions , apparitions , sprights , ghosts , fiends , with silly miracles about them , fill'd all places , and were a great annoyance unto the common people . somewhat there was no doubt of the juggling of priests in these things , and somewhat of the agency of the devil , each of them making use of the other to further their own designs . but upon the first preaching of the gospel , there was an abatement made of these things in all places , which hath gone on , until they are every where grown the matter of scorn and contempt . this religion being thus planted , and producing these effects , the house of austria in both the branches of it , the imperial and the regal , espoused the antichristian interest and quarrel against it , and for eighty years or thereabouts , endeavoured by all wayes of force and cruelty its utter extirpation . what immense treasures of wealth they have spent and wasted , what an ocean of blood they have shed , both of their own subjects and others in the pursuit of this design , cannot be well conceived . but what hath been the issue of all their undertakings to this end ? they have so far broken themselves and their power in their obstinate pursuit of them , that those who not long since thought of nothing less than an universal monarchy , are forced to seek unto protestant states and nations , to preserve them from immediate ruine . so vain , foolish and fruitless for the most part are the deep counsels and projections of men , so destructive and ruinous unto themselves in the issue , when their desires and designs are enlarged beyond the bounds which right and equity have fixed unto them ; especially will they be so , when they are found fighting against god and his interest in the world. and if the same design be now pursued by another , it will in time come unto the same catastrophe . i shall not speak any thing of the present state of this protestant religion , as unto it's political interests in the world. it is in general known to most , and hath been particularly enquired into by many . i shall only briefly consider something of it's weakness , it 's danger , and what is like to be the issue of it , as unto it's publick profession in the world , which are the subjects of many mens daily converse . the political weakness of the protestant religion ariseth solely from the divisions that are among them by whom it is professed . and these are of two sorts . first , such as are of a civil nature amongst princes and states ; and secondly , such as are religious among divines and churches . as unto the first of these , some good men who value religion above all their earthly concerns , measuring other men , even princes , who profess religion , by themselves , have been almost astonished that there is not such a thing as a protestant interest so prevalent amongst them , as to subordinate all particular contests and designings unto it self . but whereas there was formerly an appearance of some such thing , which had no small influence on publick counsels , and produced some good useful effects ; at present it seems to be beyond hopes of a revival , and is of little consideration in the world. could such a thing be expected , that the nations and the powers of them which publickly profess the protestant religion , should avow the preservation and protection of it to be their principal interest , and regulate their counsels accordingly , giving this the preheminence in all things , their adversaries would be content to dwell quietly at home , without offering much at their disturbance . but these things are not of my present consideration , nor do i think that any sort of men shall have the glory of preserving the interest of christ in the world ; he will do it himself . again , the religious differences that are amongst them as churches , do weaken the political interest of protestants . they have done so from the very beginning of the reformation . and when the first differences among them were in some measure digested and brought unto some tolerable composure , about sixty years ago there was an inrode made on the doctrine that had been received among the reformed churches by novel opinions , which hath grown unto this day to the great weakning of the whole interest . and as far as i can see , it is in vain to disswade men from contending about their small allotments in the house , or it may be but some supposed appurtenances of them , whilest others are visibly digging at the foundation to oppress them all with the fall of the whole fabrick . in these things lyes the sole outward political weakness of the protestant interest in the world , whose direful effects god alone can prevent . we may hereon enquire , what at present is like to be the issue and event of this protestant religion as unto it's publick profession in the world. for the adversaries of it do every day discover not only their desires and endeavours for its extirpation , but their expectations also of its speedy ruine . they suppose the time is come when that heresie , as they call it , which hath so long infested the northern nations , shall by their arts , contrivances and power be utterly rooted out . and it is known that those discoveries of their minds and hopes herein , which have occasionally come unto light amongst us , are but indications of those counsels and combinations in other places and among other persons , whereby their hopes are to be accomplished . and if it were unto our present purpose , much might be offered to manifest that those consultations and contrivances which are constant in the managers of the papal interest both at rome and elsewhere , for the utter extirpation of the protestant religion , have been ordered , disposed and cast into such methods , as not only to stir up all means of expedition , but also with respect unto a speedy immediate execution . we shall therefore briefly enquire , by what way and means this may be effected , or what is like to give this design an accomplishment , giving every thing its due weight and consideration ; for what the event will be god only knows . the ruine of the protestant religion as unto it's publick profession , must be either by a general defection from it , or by a force upon it ; or by a reconciliation and coalesceny with the roman church . this defection must be either of the princes , or of the clergy , or of the people or of them all in conjunction . of the first , or the defection of princes unto the papacy we have had some instances in the last age , but scarce of any who have been absolutely soveraign or supream ; unless it be of one , who together with her religion , wisely and honestly left her crown . but i suppose there lyeth here no great danger or fear as to kings , or such as on whose authority the profession of religion in their dominions doth much depend . for they are too wise to be weary of their present station and liberty . who can suppose that any of them would be willing to stand at the gates of the popes palace bare-foot , for a night and a day , and be disciplin'd to boot , as it was with one of the greatest kings of england ? or to hold the popes stirrup , whilest he mounted his horse , and be rebuked for want of breeding in holding it on the wrong side ? or would they lye on the ground , and have their necks trod upon by the pope , which a couragious emperour was forced to submit unto ? or have their crowns kick't from their heads by the foot of a legate ? or be assassinated for not promoting the papal interest in the way and mode of them concerned , as it was with two kings of france ? it will be said , that these things are past and gone , the popes have now no such power as formerly ; and the kings that are of the roman church , do live as free from impositions on them by the pretensions of papal power , as any kings on the earth . but supposing such a change , and that the king of france , as great as he is , do find in the issue that there is such a change , yet if we do not know the reasons of it , they do . is it because the maintainers of the papacy have changed their principles and opinions in this matter ? is it that they have disclaimed the power and authority which they exercised in former ages ? is it from any abatement of the papal omnipotency in their judgment ? do they think that the popes had not right to do what they did in those dayes , or that they have not yet right to do the like again ? it is none of those nor any reason of this : sort that is the cause of the pretended change. the true and only reason of it , is the ballancing of their power by the protestant interest . so many kings , princes potentates , states and nations being not only fallen off from that blind obedience and subjection wherein they were universally enthralled unto them in those dayes , but ready to oppose them in all their attempts to execute their pretended power , they are forced for a season to lower their sayls , and to pluck in those horns wherewith formerly they pushed kings and princes unto their ruine . should there be a restauration of their power and interest in the minds of men , which would ensue on the extirpation of the protestant religion , the greatest kings of europe should quickly find themselves yoked and over-matched both in their own dominions , and by such as will be ready to execute their designs . and on this supposition , they will cross all experience of former ages , if having weathered their difficulties and conquered their opposers , they be not more haughty and secure in the execution of their power and pretended office , than ever they were before . whatever delusion therefore may befall soveraign princes in their personal capacities , none of them can be so forsaken of common understanding , as not to see that by a defection unto the papacy , they bring a bondage on themselves and their subjects , from which god by his providence through the light and truth of the protestant religion had set them free . and it is certain enough that there is at this day so much rational light diffused in the world , that even those who on various inducements may comply with any of them in the reintroduction of popery into any of their territories , will quickly find what condition of slavery and contempt they have brought themselves into , and thereon make the new posture of affairs very uneasie to themselves and their rulers . yea ▪ no sort of men will be given up unto more furious reflections , first on themselves , and then on others , than they will be , when they find themselves ensnared . those who on such occasions have neither deceived themselves , nor suffered themselves to be deceived by others , may enjoy a sedate tranquillity of mind , in all that shall befall them . but these when they have digested the shame of being deluded , will be restless in their minds , and intent on new occasions . i suppose therefore there is no great danger to be feared on this hand , and if there should , that the event of counsels mixed with so much madness and ingratitude will be a suddain catastrophe . and as unto the clergy , there can be no defection amongst them , unless it be from a weariness of their present station , upon the principles of the protestant religion . for they have most of them too much light to be corrupted any way but by interest . now the principles intended are these two . ( 1. ) that the reverence which they claim , and the revenues which they possess , are not due unto them meerly on the account of their offices and the titles which they bear , but on that of their faithful discharge of their office in diligent laborious preaching of the gospel , and sedulous endeavours for the conversion and edification of the souls of men. this principle lay at the foundation of the reformation , and was one of the greatest means of its promotion . ( 2. ) that a distinction from the people by sacred office , requires indispensibly a distinction from them in gravity , usefulness and holiness of conversation . if men should grow weary of their station in the clergy on those principles ( and others the protestant religion will not afford them ) it is to be feared that on provoking occasions they may verge unto that church-state , wherein all things desirable unto them in this world , will be secured on easier terms . and the danger will be encreased , if they are capable of envy and vexation from those principles of light and liberty which have been communicated unto the people by the protestant religion , rendring all expectations of reverence and honour but what ariseth from , and is proportionate unto real worth and usefulness , altogether vain . and if hereon they are exposed to impressions from the wealth , ease , and power proposed unto them in the papal church , it is to be feared that they may regulate themselves by opportunities . and on these grounds , not a few ministers in france , being withal at the same time under the dread of trouble and persecution , have gone over unto the adverse party . in the mean time there is some relief herein , that the generality of mankind is so far enlightned , that no pleas or pretences of other reasons for such a change or defection will bear the least admittance , but it will be ascribed unto corrupt affection and carnal interest . however , if it be contained , as many judge it is , in the prophesies of the revelation , that the churches of the nations who were once of the communion , and in subjection unto the church of rome , shall be restored unto her power and possession again , at least for a short season , this sort of men must be signally instrumental therein . and if there be any nations where these two things concur , that all church or ecclesiastical power and jurisdiction , is by the law of the land vested in the king , being as unto its whole exercise derived from him alone , whereby that which he is , the church is as to power and jurisdiction , and nothing else ; and where the clergy do hold and derive their spiritual power , their power of order and office by a flux and descent of it from the church of rome and the authority thereof , upon the accession of a papist unto supream rule , it will be very difficult , if not impossible long to secure the publick profession of the protestant religion in such nations . i say in this case , although the protestant religion may be preserved in multitudes of individuals and their voluntary societies in the communion of it ; yet in such a church state its publick profession cannot long be continued ; for it will quickly be dissolved by its own intestine differences ; which every wise man may easily foresee . but the force of law , inteterest and inclination is hardly to be withstood . the danger of defection from the profession of the protestant religion in the people , must be measured from the preparations for it that are found amongst them , and the means of their furtherance . now these are nothing but the vitious habits of the minds of men , enclining their affections to take shelter in the papal superstition . such are ignorance , lewdness of conversation , provocations from the power of religion in others , atheism and interest , from hopes of advantage proposed unto some of them who have an influence on others . there can be no defection unto popery in or among the people , who have ever known any thing of the protestant religion , but what proceeds from these causes , which wholly obliterate all sence of its power , all delight in its truth , and dispose men unto any thing wherein they hope they may find a better compliance with their inclinations , or at least free them from that whereof they are weary , and wherein they find no advantage . and the means whereby these things are promoted in them , are want of due instruction , examples of sin and impunity therein , publick discountenance of the power of religion , personal and family necessities through pride or sensuality , with desire of revenge . where these things abound in any nation , amongst any people , there is no security of their stability in that profession of religion which yet they avow . for all these things will continually operate in their minds , and occasions will not be wanting in the watchful diligence of the devil and his instruments , to excite and provoke their corrupt lusts unto a declension from their profession , which with many of them will be carried on gradually and insensibly , until they find themselves ensnared in the papal interest beyond what they can extricate themselves out of . i shall make no conjectures concerning the ruine or total loss of the publick profession of the protestant religion , from those wayes and means of a general defection from it . for if there were more danger in them than there is , i know there is yet a way whereby they may be all defeated . and this being in the hand of god alone , with him it is to be left , and unto his care it is to be committed . force is the next way whereby the same effect may be produced . and this is that which those of the roman interest do place their principal confidence in ; and it is that which they judge they may lawfully make use of , whenever they are able so to do . be the force esteemed necessary unto this end , of what sort it will ; be it by private assassinations , legal persecutions , national oppressions , forreign invasions , all is alike unto them ; they are all of them to be made use of , as their supposed opportunities do require . that which at present doth most encourage their hopes and expectations on this ground of them , is the power and inclinations of the french monarch , and the influence they have on the counsels and actings of other nations . but that whole business seems to me on many accounts , to be but res unius aetatis at most ; many countreys may be ravaged and spoyled , and new work cut out for another age , but a stated interest for the papal advantage , will scarcely be fixed thereby . they must be a people of another temper and complexion of mind than our neighbours are , of a more profound melancholy and superstition , than they are subject unto ; of less vehement desires of their own , and less subject to alter in their designs on provocations and disappointments , who are fit pertinaciously to pursue the advancement of the papal power and dominion , wherein themselves at length shall be no sharers . but where there is a concurrence of all these things ; namely , an inclination in many of all sorts unto a defection , preparations in the minds of more thereunto , the persecution of some so far as the laws will permit , and just fears of a greater outward force , relief and safety is to be expected only from divine power and goodness . the third way whereby the publick profession of the protestant religion may be ruined in any nation , or universally , is by a reconciliation unto the church of rome . for although this be really of the same nature and kind with that of the defection before spoken of , yet seeing it is to be effected by a pretended mutual condescension , it will be averred to be different from a total defection . that which i intend is a coalescency in the same church-state , faith , worship and rule with the church of rome , on such concessions , and reliefs from some present impositions , as shall on both sides be agreed on . and this is the most plausible engine for attaining the fatal end designed , that can be made use of ; and possibly the most likely to take effect . the pretences of the peace of christendom , and the union of christians ( though nothing less be intended , than that peace and union which christ hath appointed ; nor will the peace pretended be ever attained by it ) are suited to cover and overwhelm men with reproaches , who shall but endeavour to discover their falsity and folly . but the present posture of counsels and affairs in the world , calls for somewhat a more distinct consideration of these things , which yet shall be but preparatory unto what shall be further discoursed unto the same purpose , if the process in the design do further manifest it self . from the very beginning of the reformation there have been various attempts for a composition of the differences between the church of rome , and those who were departed from it . councels of princes , conventions of divines , imperial edicts , sedate consultations of learned men , have all been made use of unto this end , and all in vain . and it was for a while the judgment of most wise men , that the council of trent had rendred all reconciliations , so much as by a pretence of any condescention on the part of rome , utterly impossible . for , it hath bound it self and all the world that will own its authority , under solemn curses , not to make any change or alteration in the present state of the papal church , though the salvation of all men living should depend thereon . yet notwithstanding the fixing of this unpassable gulph between the two churches or religions , some persons professing the protestant religion , either angry at their station and disappointments in the world or ambitious above their station in the protestant church , though of the highest dignity attainable in it ; or out of an itch or curiosity of venting their conciliatory notions , as they suppose them , and so to entitle themselves unto the name of peace-makers , have in the foregoing and present age revived the same fruitless design , but hitherto without success . but it must be confessed , that at present things are more prepared for the plying of this engine , and making it effectual unto the ruine of the protestant religion , than they were in former ages ; whereof i shall give some instances . sundry learned men , who have made themselves of great name and reputation thereby , have in their publick writings granted a patriarchal primacy in the west unto the bishop of rome , which is meet to be restored . and therewithall they have relinquished the true grounds of the reformation : for whereas the real causes and reasons of it were the idolatry , heresies and tyranny of the church of rome , which every private christian might understand , and was bound to separate from in his own person , were there no other of his mind in the world but himself alone , and had right so to do ; they have resolved it into the power of a national church in that patriarchate , with their supream civil ruler , to reform it self from such things as they esteem abuses . now as this is a matter wherein the consciences of the people or private christians , are not concerned ; so it is built on sundry arbitrary presumptions that have not the least countenance given unto them from the word of god. and as this endeavour tends directly to divert the minds of men from the true causes and reasons of the reformation , whereon all the martyrs died ; so it leads directly upon a relief against the pretended abuses , to return unto the pope as an head of unity and peace unto all churches , at least in these western parts of the world , which is all that at present is pleaded for , by many of the papists themselves . for the dispute , they say , about the pope , his power and infallibility , you need not trouble your selves ; let the bishop of rome in his succession from st. peter be acknowledged as an head of unity and peace unto all christians , with a patriarchal power , and no more shall be required of you , that is at present ; for the pope will be pope whilest he is so ; that is , until he is utterly cast out of the church . but by such concessions as these , the way is preparing for a composition as unto the outward order and rule of the church . as unto the internal part of religion , in doctrines of faith , there is no small advance towards a reconciliation in the introduction of novel opinions into the protestant profession . for although on their first entrance among us , they were publickly protested against by the commons of england in parliament , as introductory of popery ; yet their prevalency since hath been so great , as that their abettors are ready to avow them as the doctrine of the present church . yet are they all of them opposite unto the fundamental principles of the reformation , which were to exalt the grace of god , and debase the pride of men ; from the contempt of which principles , all the abominations of the papacy did arise . and this progress towards a reconciliation is daily improved by the endeavours of some to lessen all the doctrinal differences between the papists and protestants , and to make them appear as things not worth the striving or contending about . the same work is carried on by the labours and endeavours of many in their publick writings , to divert the making application of scripture prophesies and predictions of an apostatical antichristian church-state , unto the church of rome . the perswasion hereof ( as it is a most undoubted truth wherein the souls of men are concerned ) is the principal means of preserving the body of the people in an aversation unto popery . if you can once perswade them , that the pope is not antichrist , that the church of rome is not that idolatrous tyrannical state foretold in the scripture , many would be very indifferent how you treat with them , or what composition you shall make for your selves . but it is hoped , that the broad light which ariseth from the evidence , the pope and his church for many ages have given of themselves so to be , by their idolatries , persecutions , murders , luciferian pride , trampling on the power and persons of kings and all sorts of persons , in conjunction with the characteristical notes of times , places , rise , progress , nature and actings of that church state in the scripture , will not easily be extinguished . there is no small prevalency in the world of an atheistical principle lately advanced , namely , of resolving all respect unto the publick profession of religion into the wills and laws of men in supream power . it is supposed herein , that men may be in their own minds of what religion they please , and be as religious as they will. but for the preservation of society it is meet that the wills of law-givers in all nations should be the sole rule of the outward profession of religion . now although this atheistical opinion be destructive of christian religion , condemning all the professors of it from its first entrance into the world of the highest folly imaginable , yet being suited to accommodate all the lusts and interests of men profane and ungodly , it is incredible what a progress in a short time it hath made in the world. and those who have imbibed it are ready for all such compositions in religion , as may be supposed any way commodious unto their inclinations and interests . i shall only mention that which of all other things is of the worst abode , namely , the loss of the power of religion in all sorts of persons . the protestant religion will not any where long maintain its station any otherwise , than by an experience of its power and efficacy on the souls of men. where this is lost through the power of prevalent vitious habits of the minds of men , the whole of that religion will be parted withall at an easie rate . for there is another continually proposed unto them , with those entertainments for mens fancies and carnal affections , with those accommodations for their lusts living and dying , with outward secular advantages , that this religion is not capable of , nor accompanied withall . this is that which guided with an eye to outward advancement , hath in the last age lost great numbers of the nobility of france and poland , and other places , from the profession of the gospel , whose ancestors were renowned champions for the truth of it . for to what end should men entertain a religion which they find no inward spiritual advantage by , and are for the profession of it exposed unto all sorts of outward disadvantages ? and this sort of men , will at any time greedily embrace such a reconciliation with the church of rome , as by the terms of it may a little shelter their reputation , and make a pretence of satisfying some traditiona convictions of the truth which they had professed . moreover , unless it be diligently watched against , weariness is apt to grow on many of the clergy , of that spiritual rule and conduct of the people , which according to the principles of the protestant religion , is committed unto them . for there hath by vertue thereof , so much light and knowledge been diffused among the people , and such a valuation of their spiritual liberty thereon , which formerly they knew nothing of , that there is an excellent vertue and piety , with continual care and watchfulness required unto the rule of them ; and yet when the best of men have done their utmost herein also , they will meet with that which shall exercise their wisdom and patience all their dayes . neither hath christ granted any rule or office in his church on any other terms ; nor will the state of his subjects , who are all voluntiers , permit it to be otherwise . no wonder then if some do like those engines of an easie rule , namely , ignorance and blind devotion in the people , and so are ready to return unto them again . for it is a monstrous wearisome thing for men of heroick governing spirits , to be obliged to give conviction from the scripture unto such persons as they judge impertinent , of what they do ; much more to order their conversation with strictness , that no offence be taken at them . this posture of things men seem to be weary of , and therefore do daily relinquish them , so far as they can pretend any consistency between what they do , and the religion which they profess . but the utter shaking off of those bonds and manacles , unworthy of men of generous spirits , must needs seem more eligible unto them . and if hereon such terms of reconciliation be offered , as shall not only secure unto them their present possessions and dignities , but give them also a prospect of farther advancement , it is to be feared that many of this sort will judge it better to embrace things so desirable , than to die in a prison , or at a stake . besides all these , there is at present a coincidence of two things , that exceedingly encline the minds of many unto an ecclesiastical coalescency with the church of rome . and these are , first , an ignorance or forgetfulness of what the papacy was , and will again be ; and then a sence of some provocations given or supposed to be given them by the protestant religion , or those that profess it . alas ! what harm hath the papacy ever done to them ? it may be they can give instances wherein they have had advantage by it , or by them that belong unto it . but every thing which they suppose evil , and find inconvenient unto their present inclinations , they suspect to proceed from the principles of the protestant religion , from whence they have already received many provocations . these are some of the reasons which make it evident , that there may be no small danger unto the publick profession of the protestant religion ( the thing enquired after ) from the present design of not a few , to make a reconciliation of the two religions , and to bring all men into a coalescency in faith , worship and rule with the church of rome . now as there is little hope to prevail with them who are under the power of these things and considerations , or are influenced by them , by arguments religious and rational ; seeing they have all of them their foundation in such corrupt affections , inclinations and interests , as are more deaf than an adder unto such charms ; yet for the sake of others not as yet engaged by such prejudices , i shall manifest in a few instances the folly and wickedness of attempting , or complying with any reconciliation with the church of rome . for , in the first place , be it on what terms it will , it is a renunciation of the fundamental principle of the reformation ; namely , that the church of rome is that idolatrous antichristian state which is foretold in the scriptures . for if it be so , the persons that belong unto it may be converted , but the state it self is to be destroyed . and to joyn our selves unto , or coalesce in that church state on any terms whatever , that the lord christ hath designed to destruction , is both foolish in it self , and will be ruinous in the issue unto our souls . for it will hence also follow , that we interest our selves in the guilt of all that innocent blood which hath been shed by the power of that church-state for a dissent from it . for this guilt which is next unto that of the church of the jews , in murdering the head of the church , and every way equal unto that of the pagan world in the blood shed in their persecutions , for which it was temporally and eternally destroyed , lies charged on this church-state , and will reach unto all that shall choose an ecclesiastical conjunction therein . and let such persons flatter themselves whilst they please , and slight these things , as those wherein they are not concerned , they will find them true to their cost , here or hereafter . neither will men of any light or ingenuity easily renounce the whole work of gods grace and power in the reformation , and cast the guilt of all the divisions that have been in the world , on the part of the protestants . for seeing they have all been on the account of the church-state of rome , in opposition whereunto the martyrs laid down their lives , a coalescency on any terms in and with that church-state , doth include a condemnation of all that hath been done or suffered in opposition thereunto . the preaching of the gospel hath been but a fancy ; the suffering of the martyrs was the highest folly ; the glory given to god on these accounts , little less than blasphemy , is the language of such a coalescency . the vanity also of the terms of reconciliation which are or may be proposed , is obvious unto all that are not wilfully blind . for the church of rome preserving its essentially constitutive principles , and its being as such , can make no such condescensions , as shall not keep safe and secure the whole malignity of their faith and worship . when any thing that hath the shew , or appearance of a concession , as suppose priests marriage , the cup unto the lasty , and the service of the church in a known tongue is proposed , it is natural for all men to commend and approve of what is so done , because it is a kind of relinquishment of things grievous and tyrannical . at the first proposal few will judge these things to be sufficient , but will encourage themselves in an expectation of further condescensions ; and will be ready to assure others that they will ensue ; but yet when they find themselves defeated herein , they will take up the management of the cause and contend , that this is enough at present for sober men , seeing no more can be attained . but in reality this reconciliation will prove a total defection from the protestant religion . for the church of rome neither will , nor can part with any thing that shall change its antichristian-state and idolatrous worship . the whole of their pretension is but a decoy to get us into their power , where we shall be made to understand both where we are , and where we have been also . and those which shall be most inclinable unto such a reconciliation as is designed , unless they also become flagitious persecutors of those whom they have left , as is the manner of most apostates , will find their former faults called over to the purpose , and such base acknowledgements required of them , as ingenuous persons would rather choose to die than be brought unto . but although universal experience confirms this to be the certain and undoubted issue of a return unto their power , from which men are judged to have broken away unjustly , what ever salvo's seem to be provided against it ; yet those concerned cannot think it shall be so with them , but rather that they shall be dearly embraced , and highly promoted , if not for their return , yet for their being early and sedulous therein . but if they find this entertainment with them , who have every thing which they think good , as conscience and religion , and every thing that is really evil , as pride , ambition and revenge , to oblige them unto the contrary , i shall not be alone in being deceived . but this one consideration is sufficient to cast out all thoughts of any reconcillation with the church of rome . for although they should never so earnestly desire it , as that which would bring dominion , profit , advantage and reputation unto them , yet is it not in their power , continuing what they are , to make any such concessions as shall alter their state , or once touch the reasons of the protestants departure from them . and seeing what they suppose they may grant , will not be upon a conviction of truth , that such ought to be , as if before they had been in a mistake , but only to comply with a present exigence for their advantage , it will be recalled whenever they judge it meet to take it away again . upon the whole matter , the reconciliation designed on the most plausible terms that have ever yet been proposed , is nothing but an hood-winkt defection to rome , accumulated with a charge on the consciences of them who shall comply therewith , of the guilt of all the miseries and blood of them by whom it will be refused . but there are on the other side certain considerations that may be laid in the ballance against these dangers or the fears of them as unto the event ; and i shall briefly mention them also . for , 1. the honour of christ himself seems to be engaged for the preservation of the light and truth of the gospel where it hath been professed . and so it is undoubtedly , unless the sins and ingratitude of the generality of them by whom it is professed , do require that they be dealt withall in his severity . in that case the glory and honour of christ are more engaged to remove and take away the blessing of it from any place or people , than to put forth his power for its preservation and continuance . now although it must be acknowledged , that the sins of these and other protestant nations , have been of an high provoking nature unto the eyes of his glory ; yet it may be hoped that they have not exceeded the bounds of his patience and forbearance . and whether it be so or no , there will be a speedy discovery . for if on the many intimations which he hath given them of his displeasure , his many calls to repentance mixed with threatnings , they will now at last return unto him from the evil of their ways , and make their repentance evident by the fruits of it , he will undoubtedly continue his presence among them and his care over them . but if notwithstanding all that they hear , and feel , and fear at present , notwithstanding all divine warnings and indications of his displeasure , they will go on frowardly in their own wayes , unto the high dishonour of himself and his gospel , causing his name and wayes to be blasphemed among the idolatrous nations , the event must be left in the depths of infinite wisdom with soveraign grace and mercy . 2. notwithstanding all that profaneness and wickedness of life wherein multitudes are immersed who outwardly profess the protestant religion , there is a remnant in the nations where it is professed , who manifest the power of it in their lives , and glorifie christ by their profession and obedience unto all his commands , walking worthy of the gospel in all holy conversation . nor are this sort confined to any one party or peculiar way among them , but are found in the whole body or community of the protestant profession . what influence these have on many accounts into the preservation of the light of the gospel in the places , times and nations wherein their lot and portion is cast by divine providence , is not here to be declared ; the scripture will give a sufficient account of it . 3. there is evidently at present a spirit of courage and christian magnanimity come upon many , whose other circumstances render them considerable in the world , to do and suffer whatever they shall lawfully be called unto , for the defence of this protestant religion . this also is from god ; and if his purpose were utterly to ruine that interest , it is more suited unto former dispensations of his providence in like cases , to send weakness , faintness , cowardice and despondency into the hearts of those concerned , than to give them a spirit of courage and resolution for their duty . and hereunto also belongs that revival of zeal for their religion and the concernments of it , which hath of late been stirred up even in the body of the people , taking occasion from the opposition made unto it , and the dangers whereunto it hath been reduced . if these things are from god , as they seem to be , they will not be so easily run down , as some imagine . for whatever means he will make use of , be they in themselves never so weak and contemptible , they shall be effectual unto the end whereunto they are designed . and therefore there is no small indication in them , that it is in the councel of the divine will as yet to preserve the profession of the protestant religion , though it may be sorely shaken . 4. the strange discoveries that have been made of the plots and designs of the enemies of this religion with the disappointment of many of them , are also a pledge of the care of god over it . wise and considering men knew well enough that they were at work with all diligence , craft and industry , for the accomplishment of what they had long designed , and which for some ages they had been engaged in various contrivances to bring about . but what they saw of the effects of their counsels , they could not remove ; and all the specialties of their design were hid from them . the generality of men in the mean time , were in the highest security , some enjoying themselves in the advantages which they hold by the profession of religion , and others altogether regardless of these things . but in this state of things , the providence of god making use of the unparallel'd confidence and precipitation of the enemies themselves , by strange and unexpected means , layes open their works of darkness , awakens the nation unto the consideration of its danger , variously disappoints their hellish plots , and puts the minds of multitudes , it may be millions , into a posture of taking care about those concernments of their religion , which they had assuredly been surprized into the loss of , had they continued in the security from which their enemies awakened them . and it may be well supposed , that nothing but sin and the highest ingratitude can divert or stop the progress of those streams of providence , whose springs were undeserved mercy and bounty . for although the wisdom , justice , and honour of the nation in the actings of the king as supream , of both houses of parliament , in the judges and their legal administrations , with the piety of the church in the observation of a day of fasting and prayer with respect hereunto , be every day exposed to scorn and contempt in the papers and pamphlets of unknown persons , by decrying the plot , and vilifying the discoveries of it ( a practice never allowed , never tolerated in any other well ordered government , as that which would tend to its dissolution ) yet all sober men have sufficient evidence of the hand of god in these things , to make them an argument of his watchful care over the protestant religion . and unto all these things we may add , the fatal miscarriages and miserable ends of such apostates from the true religion , as have not been contented to ruine their own souls alone , but have been active and instrumental in their capacities , to draw or drive others into the same perdition . examples in this kind might be multiplied , sufficient to stop this sort of persons in their career , if an open discovery of the pit whereinto they will precipitate themselves , may have any influence upon them . some few things may yet be added concerning the outward means of the preservation of the protestant religion as unto its publick profession , ( for the thing it self will be preserved in despite of the world ) which those concerned therein , may do well to apply themselves unto . and i shall only name them at present . and the first is , fervent prayers to almighty god , that the princes and potentates of the earth may have light to discern that their principal interest in this world lyes in its preservation . and although some reasons that may induce them hereunto , may not seem of force unto them , yet there is one that is uncontrollable . for where the protestant religion is received , publickly professed , and established by law , it cannot be changed without the extream havock and ruine of the greatest and best part of their subjects , in all their temporal concerns . and this there is no doubt but that they are obliged so far as in them lies to prevent , as they will give an account unto god of the trust reposed in them . for as things are stated in the world , as the designs and interests of the parties at variance are formed , it is a madness to suppose that any alteration can be made herein , without these direful effects ; and if they should be covered for a season , they will break forth afterwards with more rage and fury . but i refer this unto the wisdom of them that are concerned . it is also necessary hereunto , that all those who sincerely own this religion , and make it the rule of their living unto god , in hopes of the eternal enjoyment of him in another world , do depose the consideration of the lesser differences amongst themselves , and unite in one common design and interest to oppose the entrances and growth of popery among us . and it is an hard thing to perswade rational men , that they are in earnest for its opposition and exclusion , who are not willing so to do . but that whereon amongst our selves the event of this contest doth depend , is the repentance and reformation of all them that profess this religion , upon the divine calls and warnings which they have received . for a close of this discourse , if we may suppose what we may justly fear , namely , that the holy god , to punish the horrible sins and ingratitude of the nations professing the protestant religion , should suffer the profession of it by any of these means or any other that he shall think meet to use in his holy permission , to be extinguished for a season , and remove the light of the gospel from these nations , we may yet conclude two things . 1. that it shall issue at last in the advantage of the church . antichrist shall not be a final gainer in this contest . his success herein will be the forerunner of his utter destruction . the healing of his deadly wound , will preserve his life but for a little while . religion shall be again restored in a more refined profession . there shall ensue hereon no new revelations , no new doctrines , no new scriptures , no new ordinances of worship ; the substance of the protestant doctrine , religion and worship shall be preserved , restored , beautified in themselves , and in their power , in them by whom they shall be professed : the demonstration whereof , shall be given elsewhere . 2. in the mean time , to suffer for it even unto death , is the most glorious cause wherein we can be engaged , and wherein we shall be undoubtedly victorious . it is no less glorious in the sight of god , no less acceptable with him , to suffer in giving testimony against the abominations of the apostate antichristian church-state , than to suffer for the gospel it self in opposition to idolatrous paganism . finis . a protestants account of his orthodox holding in matters of religion at this present in difference in the church, and for his own and others better confirmation or rectification in the points treated on : humbly submitted to the censure of the church of england. spelman, henry, sir, 1564?-1641. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a61101 of text r12772 in the english short title catalog (wing s4940). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 73 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a61101 wing s4940 estc r12772 13579453 ocm 13579453 100497 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a61101) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 100497) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 851:4) a protestants account of his orthodox holding in matters of religion at this present in difference in the church, and for his own and others better confirmation or rectification in the points treated on : humbly submitted to the censure of the church of england. spelman, henry, sir, 1564?-1641. spelman, john, sir, 1594-1643. [4], 30 p. s.n.], [london : 1642. written by henry spelman, but sometmes ascribed to john spelman. cf. dnb, bm. dedication signed: j.s. place of publication from wing. reproduction of original in huntington library. eng protestantism -early works to 1800. a61101 r12772 (wing s4940). civilwar no a protestants account of his orthodox holding in matters of religion, at this present; in difference in the church. and for his own and othe spelman, henry, sir 1642 13763 19 0 0 0 0 0 14 c the rate of 14 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-07 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2006-02 aptara rekeyed and resubmitted 2006-03 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2006-03 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a protestants account of his orthodox holding in matters of religion , at this present ; in difference in the church . and for his own and others better confirmation or rectification in the points treated on , humbly submitted to the censure of the church of england . printed anno dom. 1642. good reader , the dissentions in our church about matters of religion , being so great , as that there is scarce any thing in practice so well established , but is by some or other called in question , and the distempers of the state being such , as not any man scarcely knows where to make addresse for resolution : i do here ( as i hold it my duty ) make a publique presentment and submission of the judgement , that upon calling my understanding to an account , i have been able to make in these matters , to the pious censure of our mother the church of england , to the end that from her sincere admonishment , both thou and i may receive as the case shall require , either approbation or rectification in our judgements ; which i heartily wishing , rest , thine in all faithfull affections , j. s. a protestants account of his orthodox holding , in matters of religion . when in all controversies about matter of religion , the dictate of the word of god is principally to be attended ; and the certainty of that dictate depends upon the assurance of the true sense and interpretation of the scripture ; it is necessary that in the first place we have consideration of the assurance one may have of the true and genuine sense thereof . for though without controversie the scripture be a rule of the highest , most absolute , and most sacred authority that may be , and such as wheresoever it extends to give rule , bindes and regulates all humane laws and constitutions , from what authority soever derived , and though in many things ( as namely , in the fundamentalls of religion , in matters of necessary faith , and in the expresse commands of god ) the truths thereof are so manifest , and of so assured receipt , as that no authority , no not of an angel from heaven is to be received to the contrary , but every one must of his own illumination embrace and hold them ; yet are there other truths which may so easily admit dispute , as that without the awe of some authorized moderator , men of perverse affections would inevitably subvert the peace of the church with their infinite dissentions about them . it is true , that to the great calamities of the church , there is much dissention made about the morator or interpreter of the scripture ; but that is not so much through error of judgement , as obstinacy of parties , among whom the two most adverse and dangerous parties are neither of them so blamelesse , but that they are culpable of detracting from the authority of the scripture , by authorizing unwarrantable interpretation of it . it is true , that in the first place the church of rome is the great subverter of the scripture , by assuming to her self the person of the whole church catholique , and by vertue thereof , to have infallibility of judgement in interpretation of scripture ; for whilst she as judge arrogates to her self infallibility , she makes that there is no more regard to be had what the text is , than there is heed to be taken what was the warrant that the holy ghost had for those things which he hath at any time delivered ; for he that is infallible , pronounces of his own authority , and can no more depend or be restrayned to any originall out of himself , than infinitenesse can be restrayned to a finite thing , or god himself unto a creature : wherefore there can be no extrneall judge of scripture , of infallible authority , for that of necessity annulls the scripture , and makes it no other than a dead letter . but in the second place they also destroy the authority of scripture , who when in word and outward profession they magnifie it above all things , do then by subjecting it indifferently to the judgement of every one that takes upon him to interpret it , trample under foot the honour that they gave unto it ; for as infallibility of the interpreter takes away the scripture from the hearer , so incertainty in the interpreter takes away the hearer from the scripture : for how can one hear , when he may either doubt the judgement or fidelity of the interpreter ? or when ( as it often happens ) the interpreters that are authorized one as much as another , do make a diverse , perhaps an adverse delivery of the scripture ? as in the romish errour the scripture is made a dead letter , so in this it is made a trumpet of incertain sound , which none can with safety hear and receive , unlesse you will suppose some hearer also infallible . to say truth , as in the question whether one god or many , it was truely said , dicite plure● , dicite null●s ; so in the interpreters of gods word ( whereof none can be authentique , but with whom the spirit of god is warrantably to be presumed ) if in equall degree and authority we make many , we make as good as none at all . we must therefore finde an especiall interpreter , and that of such potiority of judgement before all others , as that we may safely confide therein , and yet so confide , as that we may not detract ought from the authority of the scripture , by ascribing infallibility to the interpreter . we are taught negatively , that no prophesie of the scripture is of private interpretation ; we are also told , that the church is the ground and pillar of the truth ; and we are warned not to adhere to the doctrines of particular men , be they never so eminent and famous in the congregation , but to weigh their doctrines delivered as the word of god , and to see if they have alwayes been so understood and received by the church ; for if we finde not authority ( of our own church at least ) for them , we are then but cautiously to receive them ; but if we finde the judgement of the church catholique against them , we are altogether then to reject them : for when the promises of the holy ghosts assistance were made , not to single disciples , nor to some in particular , but indefinitely to the universality of them : i am with you unto the end . he that heareth you , heareth me . he ( the spirit of truth ) will guide you into all truth ; that is , not some , nor every one of you , but generally the body of you : we cannot receive doctrines with any confident assurance , but from the concurrent judgement of all the pastors of the whole church universall , to whom the promise of assistance is properly , and in the first place made ; or in defect thereof , from the concurrent judgement of the pastors of our particular church , which , as to her own members , is to be received as the judgement of the whole , till the judgement of the whole appeareth to the contrary . for as the spirits of the particular prophets in every church ought to be heard and received of all the members thereof , untill it appear that their particular spirits and doctrines recede from the concurrent judgement of all the prophets of that church ( to which they ought to submit their judgements ) so ought the concurrent judgement of all the prophets of every particular church , to be received of that church , untill it appear that it is contrary to the judgement of the church universall : but then as the universall church must be heard before the particular , so must the universality of the particular , before any particulars of that particular church ; for god , saith saint paul , is not the author of confusion : and therefore he not onely obiects against the refractory particulars of corinth , we ( that is , the church of corinth ) have no such custome ; but lest they should alleadge errour also in that particular church , he justifies their practise , by the practice of the universall ; neither ( saith he ) have the churches of god . by which it appears , private men are tyed to submit to the judgement of their particular church , and that unto the judgement of the universall . but if any ask what is the catholique church , when and how is her judgement to be had . the catholique church ( properly so called ) is the whole number of christians in all places universally professing christ ; and this , since the apostles times , never was , nor can be assembled into one , to give sentence upon any thing : but as in the politique body of civill states , the reall assembling of all the members personally being unnecessary , inconvenient , and almost impossible ; some persons representative of the whole , being by intimation of the superiours from all parts , delegate to give the common suffrage of the whole , do by the laws of god and man , give the binding sentence of the whole body universall , so in the mysticall body of the church , the ecclesiasticks , which are the onely authorized members , for discerning and judging matters that depend upon the word of god , because that to them , and to them alone , were the promises of the holy ghosts assistance made , they ( i say ) either all assembling themselves together , or at least in their severall diocesses , chosing and delegating from among themselves trusty men , to do the office of the clergy in that point , do truely and properly give the entire vote of the whole catholique church : and in this way we have many sentences and decrees thereof remaining to us ; which being from age to age successively received , do stand in force and speak , unto this very present : against which , whosoever shall in practice or doctrine attempt any thing to the prejudice of what is so established , shall apparantly declare himself an insolent and schismaticall exalter of himself , and of his own private judgement , against the judgement of the whole catholique church : and in the same way that the church catholique speaketh , in the same also , if need be , speaketh every particular church . this being the extraordinary way wherein the church speaketh not , but upon extraordinary occasions ; she hath also for ordinary occasions , a continuall constant voyce in an ordinary way ; the church , considered in it self , is not , nor cannot be lesse than the whole body of it ; but considered in the actions of it , any part by which it duely worketh ; as to that work onely which it so intendeth , is truely and properly enough called the church : if we speak of a man , as of his being , as that he lives , is in health , young , lusty , &c. we mean by the man no lesse than the whole man , with all his members ; but if we speak of the particular actions of the man , as that he did hear , see , speak , take , &c. we do not then intend that every distinct member of his body did actually hear , see , speak , take , &c. but that the man performed those actions by the proper members respectively ordained for the doing of them , and that neverthelesse the office of each member so ministring , was the proper act of the whole man ; so that though the eyes of the man onely saw , his ears heard , his tongue spake , and his hands handled , yet is the whole man said truely to hear , see , speak , and handle . as then in the body naturall , so in the body mysticall , the church ; though the church , in her being comprehend all members , as well lay as clergie , yet in her work and actions she worketh not promiscuously by all , but by her proper and ordained members ; for if every one were an eye to see , a head to judge , or a mouth to give sentence , then were they all but one equipotent member , and where then were the body ? saith s. paul : therefore though in the question of circumcising the believing gentiles , the letters of ordinance went in the name of the apostles , elders , and brethren ; yet plainly the brethren had no vote in the decision of the question , but as the apostles and elders are onely said to have come together to consider of the matter , so the debate and decision there , is onely theirs , and the decrees thereupon are in the 16 chapter , called onely the decrees that were ordained of the apostles and elders , and if we will have the brethren to have been named in the apostles letters , to shew that lay-men have authority to vote in matters of religion , then must we also confesse that lay-men , aswell as the man of god , have authority to judge in matters of doctrine also , for they that writ the letters , say of the point of doctrine , we gave no such commandment . therefore plainly the judgement of the apostles and elders , was in that matter , the judgement of the brethren , and of the whole church there , by their unanimous submission and agreement unto them . and when all is done , the voting of apostles , elders , and brethren together , is a thing farre differing from the voting of lay-men onely , and from lay-mens choosing of the votes . in the same manner the voyce of the ordayned governours and ministers in every particular church , in those things that are committed to their care and charge , is the voice of the church it self ; and the voyce of that particular church , not being repugnant to faith , nor the declared judgement of the catholique church is , ( as to the members of that church ) the voice of the whole church catholique : so that he that refuseth to hear the voice of the governours of his particular church , refuseth to hear his particular church ; and not that church onely , but the whole church catholique . again , as in the body the most usefull members thereof , the eyes , the ears , the tongue , the hands , the feet would not onely be uselesse , but make a confused deformity , if they were every one annexed immediately to the grosse of the body , and not joyned by the mediation of some noble limb , the eyes , the ears , and tongue , by the head ; the hands , by the arms , and the feet , by the legs : so would it be in the church catholique , if every particular member should hold it self immediately to depend on it , and not on the noble and mediating limb of his particular church ; that so by a usefull and decent subordination of the members under the head . the body from thence ( as the apostle speaks ) by joynts and bands having nourishment and knit together , may encrease with the encrease of god . these same things doth our saviour teach , when giving a rule for governing ones self in private offences betwixt his brother and him , he bids him tell it to the church : our saviour meant not that upon every such occasion the church catholique should , or could be convoked , but onely that the offended should complain to the governours of the church he lived in , the doing whereof , is properly to complain to the whole church , yea to the whole church catholique , as appears by our saviours adding , that if the offender refused to hear the church , he should be as an heathen man ; as much as to say , that if by refusing to hear his particular church , he refused to hear the whole chuch catholique , he should then be as an heathen man , cut off from the communion of the whole church ; for it were no just sentence to cut off one from the whole church , for disobeying the particular , unlesse that disobedience to the particular , were disobeying of the whole church . every particular church then hath so farre the authority of the church universall , that ( as to her own members ) her voyce is the voyce of the catholique church , and tyes them all in conscience to submit their judgements to hers , and to yeeld observance to all her ordinances that are not against the expresse word of god , nor judgement of the catholique church . and even in her ordinances that minister question , whether they be orthodox and agreeable to the word of god or no , her authority is so farre binding , as that even those ordinances● are not to be rejected nor condemned upon the judgement of any of her private members onely , but either by her own review and censure , by some more generall nationall assembly , or ( if the consequence require it ) by a full and true generall assembly of the church ; whose sentence when once it shall be obtained , shall be received , as the most sacred , and most authentique judgement that may be had in that matter , and neerest approaching to the judgement of the holy ghost ; but shall not be received as infallible , as if pronounced by a judge infallible ; for what assistance soever god hath promised to his church , it is onely such as agrees with the condition of a church militant , therefore he hath neither promised it to the single ministers in every of their preachings , neither yet so to the church it self , as that in every of her consultations and decrees , she should infallibly produce the sentence of the holy ghost ( for then were the scripture needlesse , seeing the church should be able to pronounce infallibly with authority , equall to the very text , and the church as to errour in knowledge and understanding should not be militant , but triumphant : but every judgement of every church shall have such a potiority of credit and authority , in respect of the judgement of any part or member thereof , as that it must not be rejected nor over-ruled by any other judgement , than either her own revisall and censure , assembly of her proper judges , a more generall nationall assembly , or a full generall assembly of the church . to conclude then , when for avoyding confusion in the church , god hath subjected the spirits of the ( particular ) preachers , to the concurrent judgement of all the preachers ; for men , under pretence of preaching gods word , to preach their own private judgements , in detraction from the authority of their church , and without submitting their opinions to the judgement of their church ; this is so farre from honouring god by magnifying of his word , as that contrarily it destroyes the authority of the scripture , by confused and wrong arrogated judgement in interpreting of it , it by sects and schismes subverts the peace of the church , and contrary to the admonition that god hath given in that behalf , makes god the author of confusion . the assurance of our orthodox profession , depending upon the consideration of these things , cannot but occasion a little further examination of them . religion , a religando ex vi termini is that , which whatsoever it be , ought to binde the professor ; but of all other godlinesse ( which onely is the true religion ) must not have that binding power of hers denyed ; and therefore will-worship , as repugnant to religion , is to be rejected . ye shall not ( saith moses to the people when they were to enter into the land , and be a setled church ) ye shall not ( saith he ) do as we do this day , every one that which is good in his own eyes . it is impossible for the professor which followeth his own judgement or conscience onely , to avoid disobedience and will-worship ; for private judgement and conscience , are neither sure nor constant observers of gods law , nor can a man alwayes tell whether his iudgement , or his affection leads his conscience ; but as obedience is that which our saviour himself learning , sheweth that we all must learn ; so the power of godlinesse is to constrain obedience . and if there be a question what we shall obey , the scripture tells us the priests lips should preserve knowledge , and we should seek the law at his mouth . and our saviour tells his disciples , he that heareth you , heareth me ; and he that despiseth you , despiseth me ; and bids that he that will not hear the church , be as an heathen man : and st paul tells us , the church is the pillar and ground of the truth , and against private singularities and indecencies in the service of god : he obiects , that their church had no such custome , neither the churches of god : we are also commanded to submit to all manner of ordinance of man , for the lords sake ; and that every soul be subject to the higher power ; that he that resisteth the power , resisteth the ordinance of god , and receiveth to himself damnation . the scripture is abundant to this purpose , and among many other places , gen. 27. 6. is remarkable : when jacob ( or israel ) was afraid , in the apparell of his elder brother , to seek his fathers supreme blessing , lest by seeking it in a undue manner , he should , instead of a blessing , get a curse ; his mother requires his obedience to her voye ; israel obeyed her , and by it obtained the blessing . if this allegory so much concern us , as that we be the israel , the younger brother that want and seek the blessing , our saviour our elder brother , in whose clothing we seek it , and god our father that gives it ; who is our directing mother , by oheying whose voyce we obtain the blessing , but she that is the wife of our father , the church of god ? by these then , and many other scriptures , it appears , that in all matters of religion , wheresoever there is a doubt , and consesequently use of judgement , the iudgement of the church is to be preferred ; so gods word ( which must be observed ) directs , so the exigence of things requires , the particular man cannot otherwise avoyd will-worship and singularity , nor the church of god confusion . when now there is so great offence taken at divers ordinances of our church , what is there in any of them so erroneous or corrupt as to discharge ones conscience from the terror of these precepts , and from the obedience that they command ? is there any thing in the ordinances of our church against the expresse command of god ? if there be , why do not the offended shew it , that they may justifie themselves , vindicate gods truth , and stop the mouthes of all gain-sayers ? but when instead of things expresly crossing gods commadments , they finde no exceptions but what , at the most , are disputable , grounded upon inferences and collections , and those not generally received , nor yet all approved by the judgement of any particular church , but late imaginations of men , of a few , and them private men , whether it be meet in the sight of god , upon such grounds to follow men , or indeed ones own self , rather than god , every one may judge . and were that granted ( which indeed cannot be proved , nor may be granted ) that the ordinances of our church are superstitious , how yet will that warrant the disobeying of them , to a conscience that is guided onely by the word of god ? for where is superstition by the word of god forbidden ? or where is it there described ? though then we grant superstition to be the foulest corruption a christian church can be depraved with , and neerest approaching to idolatry , yet being a corruption discovered by the judgement of the church , rather than any expresse word of god , with what warrant can any mans conscience , against gods expresse command , disobey the ordinance , for fear of superstition , when concerning it he hath received no command from god ? especially , when disobedience being like the sinnes of witchcraft and idolatry , he commits a sin that is equall to them , and onely to avoid superstition , which is lesse than either . nay , that is not all , but while he disturbs his duty with false apprehenhensions of superstition , he with his disobedience , commits the superstition which he fears ; for when superstition properly is an over-strict religious insisting upon the doing or not doing of that which in it self is but indifferent ; his own scrupulousnesse not to kneel , not to bow , not to stand up , not to be uncovered , not to answer , &c. according to the use of the church , is not onely disobedience , but very superstition it self , placing religion in that wherein there is no religion to be placed ; and teaching the conscience more to fear pollution from without , by things externally enioyned , than to fear it within , from the haughtinesse , stubbornnesse , or self-conceitednesse of the heart , than which , nothing doth sooner defile the actions of a man , and make his religion vain . but , will he say , his conscience cannot be satisfied , but that the ordinance of the church in some things , is superstitious , so as he may not submit unto it . we must answer , let him use the liberty of his consci●nce , but let him withall take heed he use it not for a cloke of maliciousnesse ; for if through weaknesse of conscience he takes offence at the ordinance of the church , as superstitious , which otherwise he knows himself tyed to reverence and observe , let him , in true humiliation of his soul , behave himself like one afflicted , that laments the breach between the church and him , let him labor for satisfaction by the help of those whose integrity in that behalf , shall not by any aversenesse to the ordinance , be suspected : let him forbear rayling language on governours , and contemptuous behaviour towards the ordinance , that so though he cannot be conformable , he may not yet become refractory , but may be piously embraced of the church , till in the spirit of meeknesse he be at last restored to his strength : but if he will not do thus , but will contend , hold his own opinion sufficient to oppose against the judgement of the church , adde contempt to his non-conformity , seek to poss●sse others with his opinions , glory in their association , and towards the governors of the church be as one of those that controll the priest , yea , that controll the whole priest-hood ; that man , in pretending conscience , lyeth unto the holy ghost ; he is not prest with conscience , but a lift up heart , self conceited , and affecting singularity , hath seduced him , and makes him maintain an affected scruple of his own , before the iudgement , yea , and the peace of the whole church . from these generalls , we come somewhat more particularly to consider that which some affirm , that for remedy of the corruptions of the church , any assembly representative of the whole body of any state , seeing it implicitely comprehends all orders , degrees , and conditions , that are parts of the state , have full power and authority of doing whatsoever any order or part of the state may do ; and that therefore they , as well as the clergie , may , in that state , determine what form of ecclesiasticall government , what discipline , what ceremonies are most fit for the church , and most agreeable to the word of god . who knows not but that by the same reason they may as well determine what doctrines are most agreeable to the word of god : but we shun captiousnesse , and seek our own and every ones clear satisfaction . it is true , a body representative of the whole state , hath the power of the whole state , to do whatsoever the whole body of the state , if it could be all assembled , could do ; but the whole state , if it were gathered together in one , and the whole clergie in it , could not by their promiscuous vote determine of any thing that god hath subjected to the judgement of the clergie onely . some argue , that the whole state be christians , and every true christian a spirituall man ; the spirituall man judgeth all things ; and it is true ; but that judgement is onely as to himself , to discern and judge for his own right governance , but not to binde others therewith ; he may exercise such judgement as grace administreth , but cannot exercise directive judgement , for that is not to be practised , but by especiall commission of authority . it was the ground of corah's fearfull sinne , that because all the congregation were holy every one of them , and the lord among them , that therefore levites and lay-men might offer incense as well as the priests : one without lawfull authority may not more meddle with decreeing the suppression of vice , and encouragement of vertue , in a way that belongs onely to the jurisdiction of another , then might the sonnes of sceva use the authority of christs name to casting out of devills ; therefore particular men must have expresse warrant , before they can decree any thing . and were it granted that they , if known , might in this life exercise directive judgement in ecclesiastique affairs , yet being so small a number , in respect of worldlings , and it being impossible in this world to distinguish them , or to avoyd , but that while they vote together with worldlings , their votes will be over-ruled by worldlings : for these causes , the being inwardly a spirituall man , can nothing more avail him in that point , than if he were not so . and for this last cause , it nothing also avails , though the clergie themselves actually vote amongst seculars ; for where the carriage of matters cannot certainly follow the votes of the clergie , but be subject to the votes of the seculars , their votes so given , cannot have the authority of ecclesiastique votes , but of lay. and both for the peace of private consciences , and also for the peace of the church , it would advisedly be examined whether the votes of clergy-men chosen by the seculars ( say by the body representative of a whole state ) be of more authority for deciding matters of religion in question , than the votes of the seculars themselves that chose them be ; for when by the expresse word of god , the spirits of the prophets , are to be subject to the prophets , the prophets must either all of them together hear and determine , or all of them freely make choice of such of their brethren as shall do it for them , lest if the secular power assume the choice of the men , they , by assuming the choice of those that shall give the clergies vote , assume the giving of their vote , and upon the matter reject the vote and judgement of the clergie : for the few men that so be chosen , have no authority of themselves , to judge by themselves , but have the authority of those onely that made the fiduciary commitment of power to them ; and if they that committed the authority be seculars , then is the judgement and executing of the spirit , of seculars only . and it would further be taker into consideration , whether , as the bishop of romes usurpation of the authority of the universall church manifested him to be the great spirit of antichrist , so in every particular church , any usurping or undue assuming of the authority thereof , will not amount to an inferiour exercise of the same spirit ? now whereas it is conceived that forms of government ecclesiastique are not tyed to the judgement of the clergie , but are arbitrary as the state shall judge expedient , it is not denyed but that church-government may be accommodate to the occasions of the state ; but then those cautions are to be observed , ( 1 ) that as the state is judge what form of church-government will be most commodious for the well-fare thereof ; so the clergie be judges , whether the form desired be safe for the church , and agreeable to the word of god ; otherwise the one may be oppressed , while the other is accommodate : therfore we see that upon every change and remove of the camp , not onely the taking down and folding up of the tabernacle , and all things belonging to it , was committed to the priests , but even the utmost act of carrying of it , when all was disposed and ordered by the priests , was given in charge to those onely that were levites : and whereunto are helps in government reckoned among apostles , prophets , teachers , and other members which christ hath set in his church , if the government of the church be to be managed by those that are not to be numbred among them . and if among pastors which god hath set in his church , he hath ordained some to be helps in government , how dangerous a matter will it be for those that are not of their calling , to iustifie them out of their authority , and in that point usurp their function ? moses hath long since put terrour in the case , when with a propheticall spirit praying for levi , he saith , smite thorow the loyns of them that rise up against him : and the prophet likewise , where speaking of the church , he saith , no weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper , and every tongue that crieth against thee in judgement , thou shalt condemn : and our saviour himself , where he saith to his apostles , what ye binde on earth , shall be bound in heaven . another caution to be observed , is , that in accommodating church-government to the frame and occasion of the state , nothing be disestablished or unsetled , that seems to have been setled by any authority of the scripture . therefore whereas we see there , the government of the church first setled , in the hands of bishops ( that is , of pastors that had authority over pastors , to rebuke with all authority : not to suffer themselves to be despised : a to ordain elders : b to receive accusation against them : c to charge some to preach no other doctrine : d to step the mouthes of unruly deceivers : e to set in order things that are wanting , &c. ) and we finde not any other form of church-government neither in the scripture , nor in the practice of the universall church , as well ▪ where the pope never ruled , as where he did ; that therefore men make not such an accommoda●ing as by an entire rejecting of the ordinance set on foot by the apostles themselves , so appearing in the scripture , and universally so followed by the church , they reiect both the judgement of the universall church , and also of the spirit of god revealed in the scripture . for as in the change of the sabbath from the saturday to the lords day , the church hath clearly shown that she had power to make such a change ; but that change being once made for important causes , the like whereof hereafter can never happen , that power of hers once lawfully used , can never lawfully come to be used again , because there can no more such ground and cause to do it , come again to passe ; so it is likewise in point of episcopall government ; though the whole form and frame of it is not so expressely prescribed , but that the church may , in many things , have power of making therein accommodations to the times and exigence of state ; yet may not those acts of accommodation amount to such a height , as to subvert or abolish the government which by the iudgement of her members than infallible was set on foot , because no judgement of her present members now , can come in any competition with her first : and if any state shall so accommodate it self , the accommodators may , perhaps , be found fighters against the spirit of god , manifested both in the scripture , and in the judgement and practice of the universall church of god . one further particular depending upon these points , and necessary for every one to have his conscience clear and well assured , is the lawfulnesse of the liturgie of our church , concerning which , these considerations present themselves . the church being freed from the tyranny of the heathen persecutors , and setled in peace , it was necessary that god ( that had done so great things for her ) should be honored , not onely by the private devotion of her single members , but also with the publike service of her greatest congregation ; and seeing that in the church jerusalem ( ever since christianity ) becoming inhabited without walls , occasions the making of as many places of worship , as there are places of severall cohabitation ; it was necessary , both for observing decency and order , for avoiding confusion ; and for shewing ( by asmuch unity of way as might be ) the unanimity ▪ and true communion of the churches members ; that thorowout all her severall congregations ( at least , all of one nation ) one form of divine service should universally be observed . hence have the western churches ( where religion flourished most and longest ) received much what one form perhaps not all at once , nor alwayes the very same , but with some addition or change , as use and experience gave occasion ▪ untill the church of rome ( corrupting with her greatnesse ) suffered not the service of god to be exempt from her corruptions ; and growing at length so licentious in them , as even to subvert the fundamentalls of religion ; it pleased god in divers parts , so farre to enlighten and strengthen his church , as to examine the romane alterations by the test of gods word , which the church of england having more happily than others performed , reiected what was repugnant to gods word , and wisely retaining the rest , left us that form of divine service , that unto this day , by the laws of this kingdome , is advisedly confirmed in the church . in this our restored liturgie , the long practised judgement of the church ( regarding one way the property of devotion , and another the infirmity of man ) thought it fitting not to have prayers , preaching , and thanksgiving alone , without the publique reading also of the very word of god ; neither thought they it fit that the confessions of sins , supplications and thanksgivings that publikely were to be made , should all at once in one continued exercise be performed , lest happily in many , devotion wanting matter of present excitation , should wax cold , and then the intention of the minde growing remisse , and the thoughts wandring , men in spight of their hearts should with their lips onely , perform an empty mock-god service . to the end therefore that the whole service of the congregation should be truely publikely performed with true communion , and likewise with true and lively fervour of spirit , they ordained such change and succession of all duties belonging to gods service , as might best make those severall duties most effectuall to the performers . first therefore , that the congregation observing one and the same demeanour thorowout all her members , should upon their knees , with loud voyces , and articular confessions , make an humble and publike and acknowledgement of their sins , and vile dition , and beseech god for mercy and forgivenesse ; and the minister , for the comfort of the penitent , to pronounce gods pronesse to forgive , and to pray for them , and with them . that after their humiliation they should with hymnes of mutuall exhortation taken out of scripture , stirre up one another to proceed to praise , to singing and rejoycing before god . then some portions of the scripture should be read in course , of which , the psalms should ever be part , which because they contain matter so abundantly usefull for instruction , for meditation , for comfort , prayer , praise , and thanksgiving , they should therefore be read alternally betwixt the minister and the congregation , to make them in publique more fervent in the prayers and praises wherewith the psalms abound , and to make them also more perfect in the contents of them for their private use ; then as gods works ( especially of man redemption ) are so done as that they ought to be had in remembrance , so on sundayes , and other dayes of especiall commemoration of them , such portions of scripture as tended most to the setting forth of gods work on that day annually commemorated , should be read ; at the end of which , the congregation ( as moved by the impressions which these portions ought to make in every one ) to render god that praise , that glory and blessing which the sense of his mercy in his work then declared , doth justly procure from the heart and mouth of the thankfull hearer ; and this they do in hymnes either taken out of scripture , or composed and allowed by the ancient and generall approbation of the church . after the lessons of scripture and hymnes ended , the congregation to stand up , and make a publique confession of their faith , and then prostrate on their knees in prayers fitted to the divers necessities and infirmities of humane nature , to make supplications for all sorts , degrees , and conditions of men ; in which the minister should not alwayes himself alone utter the words of prayer , but ( for the better entertainment and incitement of devotion ) every member of the congregation , with frequent interjecting of their votes and invocations , should like more active parties in gods service make a more frequent and effectuall joynt importuning of him . then ( after an especiall prayer for grace and sanctification ) the two tables of commandments to be read , which summarily containing our whole duty both to god and man , the congregation conscious of the breach of every one of them , should at the reading of each commandment , cry out for mercy for their breaking of it , and implore grace for the betcer observing of it in future : and that done , some choice portions of scripture of especiall comfort and instruction , and more especially relating to the work of redemption that day commemorated , taken out of the epistles of the apostles , and the gospel of the evangelists to be read , with which ( unlesse the communion be administred , the word preached , or an homily read ) the publique service of the church to be concluded with certain prayers , and with the ministers blessing of the people . how well this ordinance provides for offering unto god the reasonable service of man , we must leave unto the consciences of every man . as for the exceptions that are made against it , they are chiefly these : first , in generall , that it is popish superstitious , antichristian , ( a charge which is very foul , if true ) then in particular , that it is in a set form . now first to be popish , is no more than to partake of the manners , customes , or ordinances of the popes , which when in plain tearms it is not forbidden in the scripture , we must seek how it it comes to passe , that to partake of them must be unlawfull . the popes ( briefly ) were the bishops of rome , of which the formost having both for life and doctrine been glorious members of the church , that church grew so renowned , as that for judgement in matters of religion , they had the priority of repute , were to the western church the authors of many good ordinances in religion , and the great support thereof ; till abusing their repute , and by little and little degenerating , they grew into so unspeakable corruptions ▪ as no intelligent man may partake in those things with them , without a conscious committing of manifest sin against the word of god . now though ●heir corruptions are by all means to be rejected , yet are they not therefore corrupt , or to be rejected because they were the acts of popes , but because they were things which the popes acted contrary to the word of god ; so as repugnancy to gods word being the true and onely ground of their unlawfulnesse , we can reckon them no further unlawfull than that ground or reason will demonstrate : and we may no more for respect of persons ( be they popes or whatsoever ) call good evill , or evill good , then we may for respect of persons break the commandments of god ; nor is it more to be abhorred as a popish corruption to use the ordinances of popes , which are not wicked ordinances in themselves , than blessing the people of in the words wherewith balaam blessed them , is to be abhorred as a balaamish corruption ; for when by the names of popish , jewish , heathenish , &c. we condemne any thing , we all intend that the thing condemned is of the nature of those things wherein they were especially corrupt , and not of the nature of their doings , which were neither good nor evill , and much lesse of the nature of those wherein they excelled ; so as to be popish simply being no argument of necessary faultinesse , we must see whether our liturgie partakes of any popish corruption or no . to come readily to the matter , when in all the whole frame of our liturgie there is no worship nor innovation , but of the true god onely ; neither is he worshipped any other way , than by the sole and immediate mediation of our lord and saviour jesus christ , there first can be no idolatrous corruption in the liturgie . secondly , it cannot be antichristian , because that contrary to the proper work of antichrist ( which is to deny the son and the father , and as god in the temple of god , to exalt himself above all that is called god ) the liturgie thorowout the whole course thereof , makes an exact acknowledgement , adoration , and exaltation above all things whatsoever ; and as it acknowledges them in profession , so there is not any thing in it , whereby they are denyed in practice ; so as to call it antichristian is a malicious slander against the clear truth examined by the light and rule of gods word . lastly , it cannot be superstitious neither ; for howsoever in the performance of it there may be some few ceremonies brought in , which rightly weighed , do perhaps conduce more to worldly solemnity and ostentation in religion , than to true and necessary religious decency and reverence , and therefore would be laid down , yet being things otherwise indifferent , introduced for decency onely , and not pressed as things of any other necessity , they can ( at the worst ) be but errours of judgement , mistaking what is decent and orderly , they cannot be superstitious , seeing they are not made matters of religion , but of decency and order , without which , nothing ought to be done . when then , according to true understanding and intention , nothing is meant popish , but what partakes of the superstitious corruptions of the popes , the liturgy of the english church must needs be acquit and discharged , not onely of the infamous calumny of being idolatrous , antichristian , and suspicious , but even also of that malicious aspersion of popish ; and then it will follow , that the censures of those sinners against their own souls , who in and for these things do falsly judge , censure , and condemn their mother church , and renounce obedience to her , and communion with her , because , as they suppose , she is popish , superstitious , idolatrous , antichristian ; their unjust censures ( i say ) will prove the condemnation of themselves , both of uncharitablenesse , of self-conceit , and of insolent exalting themselves against the church of god at least , if not of antichristian persecution of it also ; and the more for this , that while they promise liberty and freedome from superstition , they themselves become slaves unto superstition , making a matter of religion not to obey the ordinance of their church in things indifferent , and where the word of god doth not forbid obedience , but command it . this briefly touching the generall exceptions , popish , superstitious , idolatrous , antichristian . as for the particular exception , that in our liturgy all prayer , praise , and thanksgiving is in a set form , a device of mans , not the command of god ; a muzling of the ministers spirit , a nurse of idlenesse , and means of neglecting the gifts and graces of god , &c. we must consider , 1. that there is not any expresse scripture against set forms of prayer , and therefore the use of it is not against any expresse command of god . 2. all christian churches thorowout the world , as well the greek and eastern ( where popery never raigned ) as these our western churches when once they attained a setled government , have in all ages served god in set forms of divine service ; yea , even the reformed churches beyond sea use some set forms . and for our set liturgy , if any man lift to be contentious against it , we can truely say , it is the custome of our church , and also of the churches of god ; and then the depravers of it will prove to be despisers of authority , and advancers of their own private judgement against the universall judgment of the church catholique . 3 under the law there were set forms of publike confessions , thanksgivings , blessings , &c. which being no part of the ceremoniall , is warrant enough for christians to use the like . 4. the psalms of david ( which as they abound with all those necessary parts of gods publike service , confession of sins , prayers , praise and thanksgiving , so especially with prayer ) many of them having that title ( a prayer ) they were not onely used publikely by both the jewes church and the christians , but were penned to that end , and dedicated to the priests that had the office of praising god , and were most excellent in those kindes of musick to which they were set , and the most excellent passages of praise and prayer in them had the word selah added to them , to the end that in the publike use of them , those passages might be iterated , and said or sung over again . also our saviour himself having given us one form of set prayer ( which he bids , when ye pray , say ) and not at all forbidden the use of set forms , makes it out of question , that to pray in a given form is lawfull ( so the form be good ) and what doubt we but when john baptist taught his disciples to pray , he did it by giving them some form , which our saviours apostles liking , desired to have the like from him , and our saviour ( we see ) did not so much give them precepts and rules , instructing them how to make prayers of their own ( though his prayer hath that office too ) but gave them a perfect prayer in an exact conceived form , how much should men fear that their conscience ( offended at the use of set prayer , without the light of gods word declaring it to be unlawfull ) are consciences blinded with superstition , afraid where no fear is , and their consciences not onely darkened , but their hearts also seduced with self-conceit and singularity , unto perverse and affected contention with the church . 5. while they pretend to be free ministers from a supposed restraint put upon their spirits by the use of set forms , they lay a reall restraint upon the spirits of all congregations ; who being always perfect in the contents and use of their set prayers , do with prepared hearts and spirits attend the publike and joynt presenting of their known supplications to god for those mercies and graces which the church , by those forms , declares all men to stand in need of , and every ones particular spirit attesteth to be necessary for him : but if all congregations ( which god forbid ) should be deprived of the use of them , every man shall go to church bound in the spirit , and know not what supplications he shall make to god , till the mouth of the minister shall declare it , and then the single minister ( whatsoever his gifts or faculties be ) shall determine of the devotion of the whole congregation , and conclude them all , that they shall make no publike invocation of god , neither for matter nor form , otherwise than as his spirit , and perhaps sudden conceit , shall minister unto him . 6. when all the service of the church shall stand onely upon the strength and gifts of the preachers , and they differing in gifts one from another , it will inevitably follow , that those of the best gifts will more draw disciples after them than ever , and men will become followers of men , when they shall have no other means of publike communion with god , either to hear him , or to speak unto him , than onely by the gifts of the preacher , and so the church shall , against gods word , be necessarily drawn into sectarism and division . 7. lastly , if we change our set forms of d●vine worship into the various and arbitrary service that is to be performed by the minister onely , among many evills ( not now to be foreseen ) there is to be feared , that when men shall have known no other publike exercise of religion , than by the preachers arbitrary administration , and that he be generally beh●ld , as the onely minister of the spirit , of publike service and prayer , the consciences of men thenceforth subdued to an awfull dependance on him , shall finde the ministers ( like the jesuites ) through the soveraignty they hold in matters of religion , to exercise an externall dominion over their fortunes also , and set on foot a more dangerous tyranny in religion , than hitherto the church hath ever known . and if their opposition to set forms of publike service , and to what is used in the church of rome shall proceed so far , as to reject the publike reading of the scripture ( eight severall lessons or portions of which are now , by gods mercifull providence , dayly , or at least every sunday and holy-day , publikely read in the church ) then shall our church of england , by an ill-guided meaning to oppose the church of rome , come to imitate her , and towards her children commit the same cruelty that we justly condemn the church of rome for using towards hers ; who though she suffer her layicks to hear the word preached , yet suffers them not to hear in their own tongue the powerfull word of god read unto them ; and we , as well as the romanists , shall ( toward those that cannot , or are carelesse to reade ) even wholly take away the means which our pious mother the church hath ordained for their conversion , and whereas such publike reading of gods lively and powerfull word is no mean degree of preaching , we shall , in an important part , suppresse the word of god , and through disuse of frequent hearing , breed a generall unacquaintednesse with the precepts and stories of the scripture , which will in time hinder both the understanding and applying of that which shall be preached . we need not further seek to give particular answer to every quarrell that is now made against severall parts and passages of our liturgy . but when kneeling at the receit of the sacrament is so agreeable to the religious performance of that duty , and yet is quarrelled with , we cannot in silence passe it over : for when want of due preparation is dangerous , yet is not performed without humiliation , contrition , abhorring ones self , forgiving others , turning to them in all charitable affections , thirsting for grace , and fervent invocation of the divine majesty for them ; how can we perform these rightly , without the lowliest prostration of soul and body that one can solicite god withall ? will we say , it should be done before , but not at our receiving ? it is true , it ought to be begun before , but he that can so approve of his preparation before , as to cease and say , i have done enough , he is rather to fear his presumption , than to rest in such preparation , he perhaps makes a popish opus operatum , of his preparation , and cries peace , before there is peace ; nor can he say kneeling is an unfit posture to receive that grace in , which is fittest to be begged on our knees . will we say kneeling is idolatry to the bread and wine ? we must then shew that it is commanded to be done to the bread and wine , or intended so , or at least , by protestants abused so , if none of those be , but it be commanded only as the proper expression of the reverence and humiliation belonging to the duty , then is the exception not onely without cause , but slanderous and malicious . will we say , that in the institution of it , our saviour made not the disciples kneel ; true , but let us also confesse that the disciples had the bride-groom with them ; who , though he were their lord , yet called them friends , and admitted them to a liberty sutable . we will not ( i am sure ) say the sacrament is now to be celebrated in all things as it was then , and no otherwise ; and if in any thing there be liberty of receding from what was done at first , whose judgement shall we trust what we must hold , and what we may recede from , if not the judgement and practice of the universall church from the first to this present ? and if indeed we would observe the first institution , why spurn we at receiving it together at the table , for so the the disciples did ? and saint paul calls it the partaking of the table of the lord ; and david , the preparing of a table for us : truely the receiving every one , or every family apart by themselves in their seats , ●uits not with observing of communion , nor coming together to eat , nor eating together into one body , but savours of singularity and inconformablenesse to the observance of a true eucharist . it is not to be expected we should here examine all the dissentitions in religion that are among us . but seeing that in generall they are the quarrells of particular men for exercise of religion , in wayes either besides , or contrary to the established ordinances and usage of our church ( in which yet they can neither charge the church , with violating the word of god , nor shew by the judgement of the church catholike , that their own exercise of religion is that which by the word of god , is only to be taught and practised ; ) it will not be unnecessary , to represent to further search and consideration , how much some passages of gods word ( too little examined by us ) are pertinent to the decision of these matters . for , whereas true christianity is a perfect catholicisme , and contrarily antichristianisme , or fighting against god , walks in singularities , partialities , sects , separations , and the like . it is too apparant , that the wayes wherein men now pretend , that the true exercise of religion lyeth , do very much hold the byasse of sectarisme ; who sees it not in our extraordinary running after choice and affected teachers ? in which , though the shew of godlinesse so awes our judgements , that we distrust no errour in it ; yet does it concern us to take heed of a deceiveablenesse of unrighteousnesse in it . to love , desire , and seek , the lively delivery of gods word , is good , and our duty , and so is it also to love , and honour the preacher for the words sake . but there is great danger in the comparing , preferring , and despising of one , in respect of another ; for while we assume the judgement , and choice of our teachers , and hear , and follow them according as we like their doctrine , and no otherwise : we under the shew of godly longing after gods word , and honouring the choice preachers of it , discover an hidden exaltation of our selves , and of our own mindes , and judgements , both above the preachers , and the word they preach . on the other side toward the ordinance of the church , and our proper ministers , we do not only unduely exalt our selves , but adde unto it disobedience ; yea , even a faulting of gods providence , we make our own jordans , too shallow brooks to cleanse our leprosies . our siloams that are sent ; too unclean pooles to help our blindnesse : yea , and we refuse the waters of shiloah for no other reason , then that , they runne softly ; we choose our selves streams to our liking , which like the rivers of damascus must be better waters , and of more approved depth and current . every one must follow his paul , his apollo , his cephas , his christ . and as our selves encline to these wayes , so have we teachers that cherish that inclination in us , and finde it no small advantage to them , that by applying themselves to the present affectations of men , they can so draw disciples after them . for the effecting of which , though the weak in faith , ought not to be received to doubtfull disputations ; yet they , making no difference between strong and weak , school and pulpit , governours and private men , do unto their vulgar auditories ( who , they know have neither capacity to judge , nor authority to reform ) frequently preach their own apprehensions concerning the government of the church , and the right exercise of religion , not only in things apparent , and agreed on , but even in things which they themselves have lately questioned , and drawn in doubt , whether they be right or no . by which means , private presumption , insolence , self-conceipt , disdain , uncharitablenesse , and disobedience ( sins most incompatible with true religion ) are grown so great and generall , as that they are become like an epidemick contagion , putting all men in a maze , what shall be the end and consequence of them . of which when we cannot have a greater admonition , then where the spirit of god sets forth the last and perilous times of the church ; it is not amisse to summe up into one entire view , what it is , that the holy ghost doth there admonish us of . our saviour himself first warnes the church , to beware of false prophets , that come ( saith he ) in sheeps cloathing , but inwardly are ravening woolves . whom that we may know he gives a rule , ye shall know them by their fruits , and in another place , by their works : where we must note , the fruits and works , are to be taken , as they are in themselves , and as they are naturally taken notice of in all mens understandings ; otherwise we make our saviour teach , ignotum per ignotius . it is true , that in every fruit and work that is good in it self , if an evill circumstance , or way , or end , accompany it , the fruit that was good in it self , may by way , or end , be made evill , as if mercy , charity , zeal , &c. be shewed for ostentation , or for a cloak of pretence , &c. but in evill fruits , and works , it is other wise , for no end , or circumstance whatsoever , can make that work good , that is evill in it self , as disobedience , sedition , treason , &c. for god having no need of a wicked man , and forbidding us , thou shalt not do evill , that good may come thereon , he takes from evill works all the help that their good end , or circumstances may do them . when therefore we finde a deed , that in it self is evill , we must not make that good , for the good end , or good intent of the doer ; but contrarily , we must make him a misdoer , notwithstanding the good end and intent of the action . our saviour further reveals , that many shall come in his name , and shall deceive many ; the manner of whose coming , he intimates to be by way of secret insinuation here in the chamber , or by way of seperation there in the wildernesse . in the acts of the apostles , saint paul gives warning of the like false teachers , and tells the pastours of the church , of your own selves shall men arise , preaching perverse things , to draw away disciples after them . in the second of the thessalonians , he foretells of a falling away , and of the revealing of the man of sinne that exalteth himself above all that is called god , or worshipped ; whose coming he shews to be after the working of satan , with all power , and signes , and lying wonders , and with all deceiveablenesse of unrighteousnesse . again in the first of timothy , he foretells a departing of some from the faith , giving heed to seducing spirits , and that speak lies in hypocrisie , forbidding marriage , and meats . in the second of timothy , he declares that in the last dayes , perilous times shall come , the perilousnesse of which he shews to be in this , that men shall be lovers of themselves , covetous , boasters , proud , truce-breakers , false-accusers , incontinent , fierce , despisers of the good , traiterous , heady , high minded , &c. having a form of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof , &c. of which sort are they that creep into houses , and lead captive silly women , laden with divers lusts , ever learning , and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth . and lastly , that the time would come , when they would not endure sound doctrine , but after their own lusts , heap to themselves teachers . saint peter forewarneth also of false teachers , shewing that they should privily bring in damnable heresies , even denying the lord that bought them ; and an especiall description of whom , he maketh in this , that they despise government , are presumptuous , self willed , and not afraid to speak evil of dignities . saint john tells us , that as we have heard that antichrist shall come , even now there are many antichrists . and them he deciphers by their inconformity , and disobedience . they went out from us ( saith he ) but are not of us , for if they had been of us , they would have continued with us . lastly , saint iude in his generall epistle , warneth the universall church of men of like singularities , noted by this , that they creep in unawares , that they despise dominion , and speak evill of dignities , that they speak evill of those things they understand not , that they go the wayes of cain , and runne greedily after the errour of balam for reward , and perish in the gain saying of core , ( as much as to say , men of unbrotherlike affections , seekers of their own gain , and disobedient to their superiours ; ) further , that they are murmurers , complainers , walking after their own lusts , speaking swelling words , having mens persons in admiration for advantage ; and lastly , that they be they that seperate themselves . what have we in this , but an entire description of the whole practice of the spirit of errour , and of adversation to christianity , which the scripture calleth antichrists . by which , sinne ( that through the light of the gospel was subdued , and deprived of his first and naturall empire , consisting in the viciousnesse of corrupt nature ) turning himself unto his artes , like the divell into an angel of light , does now with refined and mysterious falsities , ( such as resemble piety , and true religion ) renew his onsets in a warfare of a more dangerous consequence ; so various and ( in apparance ) so contrary often to sinne , as puts the strongest christian to the use of all his armour of righteousnesse , as well on the right hand , as on the left , to be able to withstand him . this antichristianisme is here represented to us in a twofold form . the first an empire of mysterious sinne ; a body of members well united together under one head , or soveraigne , set forth one while by the names of the man of sinne , the sonne of perdition , the wicked one ; another while by the name of babylon the great , the mother of fornications , the greatwhore , &c. the description of which empire is in such characters , as marveilously sureth with the roman papacy . the other form of mysterious wickednesse is , of a quite contrary nature . a loose anarchy of singulars , of men by themselves , not united together in one by any common bond of true communion ; but ( like quicksands cast together , by the working of the sea , and from time to time shifted and changed with it ) so they , as judgements , private ends , or affections do concur , are brought accidentally to a concurrence among themselves , but without any ground , or sollid principle of uniting . for though they seem to put on the yoak of christ , yet every one keeps the bonds of the yoak in his own hands , and is the soveraign arbiter of his own obedience . notwithstanding which contrariety of theirs to the roman church ( who abuses obedience as these do liberty ) they are no other then derivatives of the same spirit of errour , begot by way of opposition , on her that is the mother of fornications . who having against the manifest word of god usurped a tyrannicall soveraignty both over gods word , his church , and all the princes of his church , and being beaten from it , the divell instead of quitting the rule , that he held by her monarchall tyranny , changes only his vicegerent , and continues the same usurpation in a popular , and anarchall way ; that is , by the hands of every particular man , or number of men , who ( abusing the example of rejection of her usurped authority ) shall invade and reject all authority how lawfully soever established in the church . both are opposers of christs doctrine , both usurpers of the authority of his church ; both hiding their usurpation under a form of godlinesse ; they differ but in this , men in the one , partake only of the iniquity by influence from the head ; but in the other , every distinct member , is the originall author of it to himself . we finding then such an alarme in the scripture blown against perverse , and self-led professors of religion , set forth unto us by such characters , as wolves , foll●wers of cain , balaam , and corah , cursed children , and the like ; notwithstanding that they have sheeps cloathing , forms of godlinesse , and fained words to cover them . it remains , that we strictly examine what fruits , or works , have passed our hands , which in their common and naturall acceptation are evill , though brought forth for good ends , and that we utterly relinquish them , that we take heed of wayes of singularity , that lead to false accusation , trayterousnesse , headynesse , high-mindednesse , and denying of the power of godlinesse ; that we take heed of the doctrines of those that draw disciples after them , that creep into houses , that go out from the fellowship of the apostles , and continue not with them , that follow the wayes of cains uncharitablenesse , of balaams prophesying for lucre , or of corabs disobedience ; that we take heed of those that despise government , are presumptuous , self-willed , not afraid to speak evill of dignities , that despise dominion , have mens persons in admiration because of advantage , that heap to themselves teachers , that separate themselves . and lastly , that while we justly hate popery , we do not in any thing partake of that sinne of the popes which made him that hatefull apostate , and mysticall enemy of the church , namely , that we do not , by assuming into a wrong hand any power or authority which god hath by his word committed to the body of the pastors of his church onely , rob him of his rightfull jurisdiction , as they that have invaded his tythes and offerings , robbed him of his rightfull possessions . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a61101e-150 2 pet. 1. 20. 1 tim. 3. 15. matth. 28. 20. luk. 10. 16. ioh. 16. 13. 1 cor. 14. 32 , 33. 1 cor 11. 16. 1 cor. 12. 12. 1 cor. 12. 19. acts 15. 23. acts 16. 4 ▪ coloss. 2. 19. matth. 18. 17. 1 cor. 14. 32. ● tim. 3 2. deut. 12. 8. heb 5. 8. mala. 2. 7. 1 tim. 3. 15. 1 cor. 1 pet. 2 13 gen. 17. 6. 1 sam. 15. 23. hos. 4. 4. num. 16. 3 act. 19. 14 1 cor. 14. 32. numb. 4. 15. 1 cor 12. 28. deut. 33. 11. isa. 54. 17. tit. 2. 15. 1 tim. 4. 12. a tit. 1. 5. b 1 tim. 5. 19 c 1 tim. 13 d tit. 1. 11. e tit. 1. 5. psal. 111. 4 isa. 5. 20. 1 ioh 2. 22. 2 thessal . 2. 4. 1 cor. 14. 40. viz. two in the psalmes , two in the old testament , two in the new , and two out of the epistles and gospels . 1 cor. 10. 21. psal. 23. io. 9. 7. isai. 8. 5. 1 cor. 1. 11. act. 29. 30 2 thessal . 2. 3. 1 tim 3 2 2 tim 3. 2. 2 pet. 2. 10. 1 ioh. 2. 19 ep. iude 4. 2 ▪ thes. 2. 3 , and 8. 1 pet. 2. 15 ▪ ep. iude 11. mal. 3. 8. a discourse of the use of images in relation to the church of england and the church of rome in vindication of nubes testium against a pamphlet entitled the antiquity of the protestant religion concerning images, directed against some leaves of that collection. gother, john, d. 1704. 1687 approx. 70 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 20 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a41594) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 100730) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 788:33) a discourse of the use of images in relation to the church of england and the church of rome in vindication of nubes testium against a pamphlet entitled the antiquity of the protestant religion concerning images, directed against some leaves of that collection. gother, john, d. 1704. 39 p. printed by henry hills ..., london : 1687. written by john gother. cf. dnb. "publisht with allowance." reproduction of original in the university of illinois (urbana-champaign campus). library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng gother, john, d. 1704. -nubes testium. pelling, edward, d. 1718. -antiquity of the protestant religion. church of england -customs and practices. catholic church -customs and practices. idols and images -england -early works to 1800. protestantism -early works to 1800. 2007-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-10 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-12 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-12 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a discourse of the use of images : in relation to the church of england and the church of rome . in vindication of nubes testium . against a pamphlet entitled , the antiquity of the protestant religion concerning images , directed against some leaves of that collection . publisht with allowance . london , printed by henry hills , printer to the king 's most excellent majesty , for his houshold and chappel . 1687. a discourse of the use of images : in relation to the church of england and the church of rome . in vindication of nubes testium . the factious and unchristian temper of our age has so unhappily spread it self thro' all ranks of men , that even those , whose business ought to be the advancement of piety , have not escap'd it 's malignant influence . and this they evidence too clearly to the world , whilst they shew themselves so industrious in multiplying the number of many needless contentions in the church , instead of endeavouring to lessen and abate them . this is the misfortune of him , who undertakes to assert the antiquity of the protestant religion concerning images , in answer to a dozen leaves of nubes testium : who because he is a profess'd and virulent enemy to catholics , seems resolv'd to contradict and ridicule , in a strain of drollery more becoming the stage than his coat , every thing they believe and teach , tho' it be the very doctrin of his own church . and like a blind combatant strikes at all before him , without distinction of friend and enemy , with a have at all . at this game plays this undertaker ; whose only care being to write an answer in full , answers , and condemns even those practices , as are allow'd and approv'd by his own church ; and in this new method of controversie spends the greatest part of his twelve-penny pamphlet : so that tho' he pretends to be a son of the church of england , yet whosoever considers , how often he strikes that church in the face , must needs question the legitimation , and necessarily conclude , that 't is uncertain what church he is of , whilst the only thing certain is , that he is no papist . this whole matter , as to his needless multiplying of controversies , and opposing the doctrin and practice of the church of england , as well as that of the church of rome , i 'll shew briefly in declaring , what the church of rome and england teach concerning , 1. the historical use of sacred images . 2. the commemorative use of images . 3. the respect and honor due to images . in all which if it be made appear that the two churches agree , there will need but little more , to prove this answerer a trisler , whilst he so laboriously sets himself against both ; and at the end of all , says nothing to the purpose . 1. as to the historical vse of images , 't is the profess'd doctrin and practice of the church of rome , to have the pictures and images of holy things and passages both in houses and churches , for the instruction of the ignorant in the knowledge of the history of both the old and new testament ; that so they may be acquainted with those sacred persons of patriarchs , prophets and apostles , and be inform'd of the wonderful works wrought by god in mans creation and redemption . this appears in the council of trent sess . 25 and in the catechism ad parochos part . 3. de invoc . sanc. par . 40. both which agree , that holy pictures and images are made , to inform the people of the history of holy writ , and that for this end they are set up in churches and other places . this same historical vse of holy images is conform likewise to the doctrin and practice of the church of england , as is evident in mr. montagu's appeal to caesar , who declaring the church of england's own , proper , true and antient tenets , ( ep. ded. to the king ) such as be without any doubt or question , legitimate and genuine , such as she will both acknowledge and maintain for her own , in this book authoris'd and publish'd by express order of king james and charles l. and approv'd as containing nothing in it , but what was agreeable to the doctrin and discipline establish'd in the church of england ( ib. ) says expresly , c. 20. that images were improv'd unto an historical vse in st. gregory 's time , and then adds ; had the church of rome gon no farther in practice or precept , than that which st. gregory recommends , our church ( says he ) i suppose ( for so our doctrin is ) would not blame them , nor have departed from them about that point . and agen chap. 23. doth the english church condemn the historical or civil use of images ? it do's not ( says he ) in practice ; all the world knows that ; nor yet in precept or doctrin , that i know . and at the end of the same chapter , he says , images may be had and made — ut ornatui sint , ut memoriae , ut historiae ; for ornament , for commemoration , and for history ; and that they may be made for such ends , no law of god forbiddeth , says our gamaliel , pa. 203. ad apol. bel. from whose words , in a book so authentic , and approv'd by two kings , heads of the church , 't is beyond question , that the historical vse of images is agreeable to the doctrin and practice of the church of england . and this do's most evidently appear to any , that will but put his head into any church of this communion , where presently moyses , and aaron shew themselves to the beholder , and let him know the concern they had in those commandements , which they there guard betwixt them . this may be seen with great advantage in the church at the savoy , where besides these two saints of the jewish law , the four evangelists have their place in full proportion between the side windows , with st. peter , and st. stephen , and the twelve apostles in twelve niches on the front of the gallery . but above all , the new church in st. james's in the fields commends this practice in a rare piece of workmanship , where the hand of the artist has set forth to the life upon the font , the history of original sin , and it's cure in the water of baptism . adam and eve stand beneath , confessing the guilt of that sin , for which infants are brought thither to be cleans'd . round the bason is seen christ under the hand of the baptist in jordan , authorising the institution of that salutary laver : and over it is an angel , as it were descending to move the waters , and to signifie that the efficacy of that sacrament is from above . then if you turn towards the altar , in one figure is represented the institution of the blessed sacrament at the last supper : the very same which is over the altar at his majesties chappel at whitehal , and for the very same intent , viz. a pellican feeding her young ones with her blood ; to signifie what christ gives to the faithful , his children , in the sacrament , that he feeds them with his blood. much more may be seen in cathedral and collegiate churches of this kind , not only in relation to the old , but new testament , even the crucifixion of our saviour , but especially in the new common-prayer-books , interleav'd with pictures . 2ly . as to the commemorative vse of images , 't is receiv'd and approv'd in the church of rome , as 't is explicated in the council of trent above cited , where 't is said ; that the use of holy images is beneficial to the people , because by them they are put in mind of the benefits and blessings receiv'd from christ ; and by seeing the wonderful miracles wrought by the power of god , and the exemplary lives of the saints , they are excited to give god thanks for such favors , to love him , and compose their lives according to the exemple of such holy men. the same is declared in the catechism ad parochos , ut sup . where the parish priest is directed to inform the people ; that holy images are plac'd in churches , to put them in mind of the divine mysteries and blessings , that so they may be more zealous and attentive in the love and service of so good a god. and that by beholding the representations of the saints , they may be admonish'd , to conform their lives to such examples . thus teaches the church of rome . the church of england likewise agrees with her in the same doctrin and practice ; allowing of images , as helps to piety , and for the affecting the minds of the beholders with pious cogitations , and encouraging them to a vertuous and exemplary life . this is most apparent in the injunctions given by king edward vi. to his clergy and ministers , wherein they are order'd to instruct the people in their circuits , that images serve for remembrance , whereby men may be admonish'd of the holy lives and conversation of them that the said images represent . which is the very doctrin now mention'd in the council of trent and catechism ad parochos . this mr. montagu explicates more at large , in his book call'd a new gag , &c. where treating of images , he says to the papists : images have these uses assign'd by your schools — the instruction of the ignorant , the refreshing of history , and exciting devotion : you and we also give unto them these . and a little after , the pictures of christ , the blessed virgin , and saints may be made , and had in houses , set up in churches . — the protestants do it , and use them for helps of piety . in his appeal to caesar likewise he thus delivers the sense of the church of england in this affair , c. 21. our strictest writers , says he , do not condemn or censure st. gregory for putting upon them ( images ) that historical use of suggesting unto , moving or affecting the mind even in pious and religious affections : for instance , in remembring more feelingly , and so being empassion'd more effectually , with the death , blood-shed and bitter passion of our saviour , when we see that story fully and lively represented unto us in colors , or work by a skilful hand . and i know not the man that is made of human mold , but when he readeth on this ( painted ) book , his tragical endurances for man , will reflect upon himself , and his own soul and conscience , with a lively apprehension of man's sin , god's love , christ's endeared charity , in undergoing these unknown sufferings for our sake . thus this eminent author most feelingly explicates the pious use of holy images , as proper for the suggesting good thoughts , and inflaming the soul with most christian affections , in order to the love and service of god. in this the reader may behold , how little difference , or rather how great an agreement there is between the legitimate and genuin doctrin of the church of england , and the church of rome , as to these two first points mention'd , viz. the historical and commemorative vse of sacred images . now when a member of the church of rome has endeavor'd to shew , that this doctrin as to the historical and commemorative vse of holy images is agreeable to the antient church , as is done in nubes testium ; who could ever expect , that any member of the church of england , much less a divine , should appear , bidding defiance to such doctrin , with endeavors to shew the practice of it to be heathenish , heretical , and but a popish invention ? could a man think , that any church of england divine would take so much pains to abuse and ridicule his own church ? certainly he must be either very ignorant of what his own church teaches ; or very blindly malicious against the church of rome , that to expose her , should not care what mischief he did his own mother church . but thus it happens sometimes , when men are guided by passion instead of truth and reason ; 't is impossible to avoid these absurdities , when such bitter spirits take pen in hand , who look no further in answering , than to contradict their adversary , right or wrong . and how far this answerer has done this , 't will be not amiss in this place to consider . 1st . then he pretends to shew , pa. 20. that the first making of pictures among christians proceeded partly from the example of some heretics . this bolt he shoots against the papists : but will not any reader presently reflect , that if pictures in churches , be not a christian institution , but the corruption of heretics ; that the church of england , for all the pictures they set up in their churches , follow not christ and his apostles , as they pretend , but the invention of heretics ? and what credit is this to his church ? 2ly . he asserts ib. that the making pictures among christians had it's origin principally from the fond inclinations of those , who being converted from heathenism to christianity , retain'd still an old relish and love of those superstitious ▪ practices , to which they had been accustom'd so long . is not this to let the person of quality , to whom he writes , know ; that the church of england , in using and allowing sacred pictures of christ , his apostles , &c. ( as is shewn above ) in houses and churches , follows not only an heretical abuse , but likewise the superstitious practices of heathens ? 3ly . he says , that there was no such thing , pa. 15. as the vse of images in the primitive ages . which is to inform his reader , that the church of england , as to this point of images , is faln from the christianity of the primitive times ; and that she stands in need of a reformation . 4ly . he shews pa. 22. that the having pictures in churches , is contrary to an express canon of the council of eliberis , held an. 305. by the fathers of the primitive church . in which he condemns his own church for contradicting the positive decrees of so antient a council . 5ly . from the example of an antient bishop renting a veil or hanging , whereon was the image of christ , he declares , pa. 25. in the words of the bishop , such pictures to be contrary to the authority of the scriptures . which is plainly to tell the world , that the use of hangings , such as have christ , or his saints represented on them , as may be seen in many houses , in cathedral and collegiate churches , are all contrary to the word of god. these are some of the severe reflections he makes upon his own church , while he 's blindly knocking down popery . who could desire a better condition'd antagonist than this , who is so good-natur'd , as never to strike at his adversary , but he gives himself a blow over the face at the same time ? has not he fairly defended his own church , while he thus exposes her under the guilt of being heathenish , heretical , going contrary to the primitive church , to councils and scriptures , which is the blackest of that dirt , he has done his best to cast upon the church of rome ? hitherto the reader has seen the doctrin of the church of rome and of england , as far as concerns the two first points , viz. the historical and commemorative use of holy images ; and how this worthy answerer , with some wrested and misapply'd passages of antiquity , strikes most rashly at both churches ; not caring , so he can but overthrow the church of rome , what other church , tho' his own , falls with her . now we will consider the third point , which is of the honor and respect due to these images of christ , &c. and as to this , the church of rome teaches , that the images of christ , &c. ought to be kept , especially in churches , and due honor and veneration given them : not for that any divinity or vertue is believ'd to be in them , for which they are to be worship'd ; or that any thing is to be asked of them , or any confidence to be placed in them , as was done by the heathens ; but because the honor shewn to them is referr'd to the prototypes , or things represented by them : so that by the images we kiss , and before which we kneel , we adore christ and reverence his saints , whom the said images represent . so the council of trent delivers this doctrin , sess . 25. the like is shewn in the catechism ad parochos , ubi sup . and the whole meaning of it is nothing more , than what was given at large by leontius bishop of cyprus , who flourish'd an. 620. that is , above a thousand and threescore years ago ; who thus makes his apology for the christians against the jews , who charg'd them with the breach of the second commandment , in giving honor to images . the pictures and images , says he , of the saints are not ador'd amongst us , like gods. for if i worship'd the wood of an image , as god , i might as well do the like to any other wood : if i honor'd the wood as god , i would never throw it into the fire , when the image is once disfigur'd . — as therefore he that has receiv'd a commission from his prince , and kisses the seal , dos not respect the wax , the paper or the lead , but gives the honor to the king ; so we christians , when we shew respect to the figure of the cross , do not honor the nature of the wood , but the sign , the pledge , the remembrance of christ ; through this beholding him , who was crucified on it , we respect and adore him . and as children , full of a dear affection to their father , who is absent from them , do kiss with tears , and with all tenderness embrace his stick , his chair , his coat , which they see at home ; and yet do not adore these things , but express their desire and honor they have for their father : just so do all we faithful honor the cross , as christs staff ; the most holy sepulcher , as his chair and couch , the manger and bethleem as his house , &c. not that we honor the place , the house , the country , the city or the stones , but him that was conversant amongst them , who appear'd in our flesh , and deliver'd us from error , christ our lord ; and for christ we honor those things , which belong to him , describing his passion in our churches , in our houses , in the streets , in images , upon our linen , in our chambers , upon our cloths , and upon every place , to the end that having these continually before our eyes , we may be put in mind , and not like thee ( o jew ) forget our lord and god. as you therefore expressing a veneration for the book of the law , do not honor the paper or ink of which 't is compos'd , but the word of god contain'd in it : so i , shewing reverence to the image of christ , do not adore ( no , god forbid ) the wood or the colors ; but having an inanimate representation of christ , by this seem to be possess'd of , and to worship christ himself . as jacob having receiv'd the party-color'd and bloody coat of his son joseph , kiss'd it , full of tears , and put it to his eyes ; not doing this for any love or honor he had for the coat ; but by this seeming to kiss joseph , and hold him in his arms : so all christians , holding or kissing any image of christ , of his apostles or martyrs , do the like to christ himself , or his martyrs , in the affection of their souls . by all which 't is evident , that all the honor and veneration paid by catholics to any picture or image of christ or his martyrs , is only to express the love and honor they have for christ and his martyrs ; and that in thus doing , they no more commit idolatry , or make gods of those pictures , than that woman is disloyal to her husband , who in affection to him , respects and kisses his picture ; than that subject is a traytor to his prince , who honors his portraiture ; or than all those , who pay a reverence to the chair of state , for the relation it has to the king , make a king of the chair , in so doing . this then is the doctrin and practice of the church of rome . the church of england seems to concur with the church of rome in all this point . this may be gather'd partly out of the ecclesiastical canons agreed to an. 1603. in the first year of king james i. where can. 30. 't is said , that the holy ghost did so honor by the mouths of the apostles , the very name of the cross , that it did not only comprehend even christ crucified under that name , but likewise the efficacy of christ's death and passion , &c. in which words this church acknowledges , the giving honor to the name of the cross to have been the practice of the apostles , as they were inspir'd by the holy ghost . and that the name of the cross , was not only to put them in mind of the person , whom they were to worship ( as a modern doctor says of the name of jesus , ) but that the holy ghost did by the apostles , honor the very name it self . spiritus s. per apostolorum ora , ipsum crucis nomen usque adeo honoravit . and in honoring that name , did honor christ crucified ; christum ipsum crucifixum sub eodem comprehenderet . which is the very practice and sense of catholics , both as to the name of the cross , of jesus , and of pictures ; names or words being pictures to the ear , as pictures are words to the eye . but it comes nearer our case , what is added in the same canone 2 o. honor ac dignitas crucis nomini acquisita , etiam & signo crucis , vel ipsa apostolorum aetate ( neque enim contrarium ostendi potest ) existimationem peperit honorificam . the honor and esteem shewn to the name of the cross , did produce even in the age of the apostles , an honorable esteem likewise for the sign of the cross ; neither can any thing contrary to this be prov'd . what can be plainer , than that according to this canon , 't is the sense of the church of england , that the primitive christians were taught by the apostles , not only to honor the name of the cross , but likewise the sign of the cross ? and certainly , if according to this church , the apostles taught their followers , to honor in their hearts and souls the sign of the cross , it can neither be contrary to the apostles , nor this church , to do so now , and to express this honor outwardly , which they are thus taught to conceive inwardly , and entertain in their hearts . 't is an absurdity sure too great , to fall upon the church of england , thus absolutely to approve the affection of honor and esteem towards the sign of the cross in christians hearts , as both a christian duty and an apostolical doctrin ; and then afterwards , to condemn the same honor and affection of the soul , as idolatry and superstition , when 't is express'd outwardly , either in words or gesture : for how is it possible , that what is apostolical in the heart , should , by being express'd outwardly , become idolatrous ? this doctrin is deliver'd more expresly by mr. montague , who in his book call'd a new gag , thus declares the express tenet of catholics and of his own church , p. 318. you say the pictures of christ , the blessed virgin and saints , must not have latria ; so we. you give them dulia ; i quarrel not the term , tho' i could . there is a respect due unto , and honor given relatively to them . if this you call dulia , we give it too . let practice and doctrin go together , we agree . nay he shews farther , 't is impossible to keep or set up the pictures of christ or his saints , without having a reverence and honor for them , in due kind . hear him in his own words , in his appeal to caesar , c. 21. but it has distasted some ( says he ) that respect and honor should be given unto them ( images of christ . ) strange it should displease any , that can approve of any , be it but a civil use of them . i cannot tell ; unless men would ins●●ntly have them pull'd down in all places , demolish'd , stamp'd to powder , whosesoever , whatsoever , wheresoever . the setting of them up , suffering them to stand , using them for ornaments , for helps of memory , of affection , of rememoration , cannot be abstracted , to my vnderstanding , from reverence and honor simply , in due kind . can a man have the true representation of his prince , parents , patrons , &c. without awe , respect , regard , love , reverence , moved by aspect , and wrought in him ? i profess my imperfection , or what they will call it , it is so with me . unco impacto in latrinas , in gemonias , in malam crucem , the pictures , statues , paintings , representations , of christ , the virgin , apostles , martyrs , holy men and women ; unless the very having and preserving of them , do in some sort imply respect , regard and honor done unto them , without offence justly given , without scandal , or inclination to impiety . then he urges the truth of this doctrin with the words of junius . junius , says he , was no papist ; not in your opinion , i hope . he in his animadversions upon bellarmin de imaginibus , says , hoc nemo nostrvm dicit , non esse colendas , nec ullo modo . suo modo coli probamus , velut imagines ; at non religioso cultu , qui aut superstitiosus est , aut impius ; nec cùm aliorum scandalo , sive cultus separatus sive conjunctus cum eorum cultu intelligatur , quorum sunt imagines . none of us say , that images are no ways to be worship'd . we prove that they are to be worship'd in a way peculiar to them , as images , but not with a religious worship , which is either superstitious or impious : neither to the scandal of others , whether the worship be understood the same , or different from that which is given to the things represented by them . thus this learned man delivers and defends the doctrin of his church in relation to the images of christ and his saints , against the arguments of some informers , which he thinks to be no other than puritans , and at best , some fvriovs ones of his own church , or singvlar illuminates , as he terms them , ib. c. 20. and now what great difference here in this point between the two churches ? the council of trent says , that images of christ , &c. ought to be set up in churches , and dve honor and veneration given them . the church of england ( by mr. montague ) says , that the images of christ , the blessed virgin mary and saints , may be set up in churches ; respect and honor may be given them in due kind ; the using them for helps of memory , of affection , of rememoration cannot be abstracted from reverence and honor simply , in dve kind . the catechism ad parochos says , these images are set up in churches , ut colantur , that they may be honor'd or worship'd ; that is , in due kind . the protestants say ( by junius ) none of us deny , but they may be honor'd or worship'd in their kind : nay more , we prove , they are to be worship'd in some manner , that is , as images . both churches then agree , that sacred images may be set up in churches ; that a respect , honor and reverence is due to them , in their kind ; and both concur in terming this honor or reverence , cultus or worship , i. e. in it's kind , suo modo . junius expressing it due , velut imagines , as they are images , the council of trent , because they represent christ , &c. which is upon the very same reason and ground . besides this , 't is agreed by both churches , that this reverence shewn to these things , is founded purely upon the relation they have to god , and is terminated finally upon him . this as to the church of rome , appears from what is already quoted out of the council of trent : and as to the church of england , from the words of montagu above mention'd . and from bishop jewel , who ( in rep. ag . hard. ) says ; we worship the sacrament , the word of god , we worship all other things in such religious wise to christ belonging . and then afterwards giving the reason : the sacraments be ador'd ( says ▪ he ) but the whole honor resteth not in them , but is passed over from them to the things signified . which is the very relative honor mention'd so often by catholic divines . and this divinity is found likewise in some modorn church-men , as dr. stillingfleet , who ( in his def. ag . t. g. pa. 600. ) says , that altho' no irrational or inanimate being be capable of that real excellency , to deserve any honor from us for it 's own sake ; yet such things may have a relation to matters of so high a nature , as to deserve a different vsage and regard from other things : and this afterwards he terms a reverence , and , if i may so call it , a religious respect to sacred places and things . in which words , tho' there 's some mincing it ; yet it delivers in some manner the whole doctrin of catholics . the two churches thus agreeing in the lawfulness of placing images in churches , and that an honor , or reverence , or even worship in it's kind , is necessarily due to them , as they serve for helps to piety ; of affection or rememoration , and have relation to god. the answerer of these leaves of nubes testium , lets fly at all this , like one of montagu's fvriovs ones , or singvlar illvminates . he runs it down , under the name of image-worship ; and is sure , with this very word alone , so far to prevail upon the ignorant and vulgar at least ( with whom , by his loose arguing , he seems chiefly concern'd ) as to gain their votes , in crying down the papists for idolaters ; and then his business is done . upon this strain he runs to the end of his pamphlet , proving that image-worship is contrary to fathers , to antiquity , to councils ; image-worship , image-worship , is all the cant : but never tells , what this image-worship is ; and never reflects , that his own church is for an image-worship too . thus unhappily in the midst of dust and noise he manages the controversie with the papists , without ever stating the question , or declaring what the papists hold , unbecoming a scholar ; and multiplying many needless contentions , unbecoming a christian . if he had examin'd the doctrin of his own church , and understood what catholics teach , he would have soon discover'd the vanity of this engagement ; and found , that after so much bustle upon this matter , there 's but little more in 't , besides fighting about names and words ; and that however tolerable this may be in a school for a logic dispute , 't is unworthy of a divine , who pretends to be a preacher of the gospel of peace . 't is already here made out to any unprejudic'd considerer , that , according to the doctrin of protestants , especially those of the church of england , 't is impossible to separate even the historical use of holy images , from a respect and reverence which necessarily follows them : much less can they serve as helps to piety , for the exciting devotion , and bringing to mind the persons represented , but they force from the beholders an interior love and honor ; so that , as 't is impossible , for a good subject to have by him the picture of his prince and of a traytor , without being differently affected in his soul towards them , even in the very same manner , as he is to the persons they represent . so neither can a faithful and good christian , behold the pictures or other representations of christ , of judas , of mahomet , but his soul will be differently mov'd towards them with love , respect , honor , veneration , on the one side ; with indignation and contempt on the other , as he finds himself affected to the persons represented by them . thus far is acknowledg'd by protestants , and may be gather'd from what is above cited out of montagu and junius . catholics say the same , and so cannot be censur'd or condemn'd for this . what then is their crime ? the charge urg'd against them is , that they shew this same honor and veneration outwardly to these holy images of christ , the apostles , &c. they kiss them , pull off their hats , they bow , they kneel , burn tapers , incense , and pray before them : this is the crime , this the image-worship and idolatry of the catholics . and here , in their behalf , and to bring this voluminous controversie into a narrower compass , i must ask of the answerer ; if it be lawful for protestants and catholics to have an interior respect , honor and reverence for holy images , as appears evidently confess'd above ; how comes it to be so vnlawful and abominable for catholics to signifie and express outwardly this same respect , honor and reverence , which is so commendable for all christians , both catholics and protestants , to have inwardly in their souls ? certainly , that honor and reverence , which in the heart is christian , cannot but be christian in the expression : and 't is very absur'd , to think a duty can become idolatry by professing it . if a christian has a greater reverence in his soul , for the book of the holy scriptures , than for any other book whatsoever , may not he lawfully express this reverence by kissing it ? if the woman in the gospel , respects and honors in her heart the hem of our saviours garment ; is the kissing that hem , any more idolatry , than was that affection and reverence she had in her soul towards it ? if a christian has a respect and reverence even for the house of god , or church , above other houses , that are not dedicated to his service ; may not he shew this respect , by vncovering his head ? if a christian honors the communion-table above other prophane tables ; may not this honor be exteriourly profess'd , by setting candles on it , and plate , and adorning it with hangings , and then bowing to it , without a crime ? if a christian reverences and honors in his heart the name of jesus , or of the cross , as the church of england says the apostles did ; can it be idolatry outwardly to profess this same honor , by bowing or bending the knee ? and if he respects the sacrament , may not he shew this exteriorly , by receiving it kneeling ? and if these exterior professions and acknowledgments of the interior respect , honor and reverence that is due to these things , may be thus commendably shewn , by kissing , vncovering the head , by tapers , ornaments , bowing and kneeling , without any abomination in the sight of god , or just scandal to our neighbor ; why may not the like interior respect and honor , acknowledg'd due to holy representations of christ or his saints , be profess'd outwardly by the same visible expressions of respect and reverence : especially since what is done to all these things , is upon no other account , than the relation they have to god , and as appertaining to him and his service ? neither let the answerer think to take sanctuary , in calling this veneration shewn to pictures and images of christ , a worship , as an image-worship : for however this may work upon the mobile and unthinking crowds , and fill their heads with a notion of idolatry ; yet every man of sense and unbiass'd judgment knows , that this word worship is equivocal , and that 't is not every thing is presently made an idol of , which is any ways said to be worship'd : as is shewn at large in the pap. misrep . 2. part. c. 5 , 6. for 't is not only the honor , which catholics shew to holy images , is call'd a worship ; but likewise that is a worship , which protestants give ; as is own'd by junius above ; so that in this sense protestants may be said and prov'd to be image-worshipers too . the reverence likewise shew'd by protestants to the sacrament , is call'd by jewel ( rep. to hard. ) a worship : the honor given to the bible he stiles a worship . in the same way of speaking , the respect to the communion-table may be term'd a worship ; bowing in reverence to the name of jesus may be styl'd a worship . and in this sense , 't will not only be laid to the church of england's charge , that she teaches and approves image-worship ; but likewise bread worship , book-worship , table-worship , and name-worship : and 't will not be very difficult , by the equivocation of this word , and the help of a little pulpit-sophistry , to paint out this church as black with idolatry and superstition , to the people , as she has done the church of rome . and it do's not at all reflect upon the church of rome , or her doctrin , that some of her divines call this respect , honor , veneration or worship paid to holy images a religious respect , or honor , &c. for this is only a dispute about a word ; and let it be call'd by what name they please , whether honorary , religious , or divine , this alters not the nature of the thing ; for 't is but the same thing , by whatsoever name it be express'd . if some will have every respect or veneration , shewn to holy things , as to the bible , the sacrament , the name of jesus , for the relation they have to god , to be call'd a religious worship , let 'em call it so in god's name . and if others will have no veneration or worship to be religious , but that which is directly and immediatly given to god ; let 'em have their way . these are fine notions , and pretty entertainments for school-debates ; but are no concern of our religion or conscience . for as long as 't is own'd , that there 's a respect and reverence due to such holy things , as in some particular manner have relalation to god and his service , and we only express this respect outwardly , which interiorly we feel in our souls ; let this be call'd an honor , a worship , an adoring ; let it be said to be honorary , religious or divine ; let it be deem'd absolute or relative , 't is equally alike to us ; since we are satisfied , the wrangling of the learned about names and words , has no influence upon the acts of our souls ; and cannot make that to be idolatrous , which in it self is not so . here then may the reader see , how stands this controversie between catholics and the church of england protestants . both churches acknowledge , that there 's an honor , and reverence that may be lawfully given to the holy images and pictures of christ . both churches express this honor outwardly : protestants , by using them in their churches and prayer-books , which ( as montagu says ) cannot be abstracted from giving them honor and reverence . while catholics go farther , and say , that 't is lawful to express this honor and reverence due to them , as they have relation to god , by kissing them , pulling off the hat , bowing , setting of tapers , &c. before them , in the same manner , and with no more just occasion of scandal , and no more breach of any commandment , than the church of england do's express the veneration she shews to the bible in kissing it ; to the church , by pulling off the hat ; to the name of jesus , by bowing ; to the communion-table , by setting candles on it . which being so many actions intended to signifie the interior sentiment and affection of the soul ; there can certainly be no more of idolatry in them , or superstition , than there is in the intention , or in the act of the soul ; the one being the same outwardly , what the other is inwardly . and , however some divines and leading men of the church of england , who are in love with wrangling , and thro' the influence of an unchristian temper , seem to be afraid of a better understanding coming amongst christians , take pains to blow up this controversie with some school and empty notions ; yet 't is not to be thought , there 's any great difference between the two churches , were they to speak their sense in a cool and moderate temper , where they might be free from the suggestions of such hot and fiery spirits , who seem to be rather men of state and policy , than of religion . for , can it be imagin'd , that the church of england , who confesses , that the holy ghost himself , the apostles , and primitive christians instructed by the apostles , honor'd the name of the cross , and had an honorable esteem for the sign of the cross , can be in good earnest against those , who express outwardly this honor , which in it self is thus acknowledg'd of divine institution , and to have been the doctrin of the apostles ? if the apostles too , as she owns above , did honor the name of the cross by their mouths and words ; can she condemn those , who do the like with their hands , their heads or knees ? if it be the doctrin of the holy ghost , to have this honor for the name and sign of the cross in our hearts ; and the apostles , by the instinct of that holy spirit , did express this by their words ; may not we do so too ? and if we may do this in words , may not we do it in any other way of expressing our sense , which nature has given us , and are answerable to words ? words are nothing more than for their signification ; and if we signifie our thoughts by any other way , as by signs , by any motion , or gesture of our body ; these actions being to express the same affection of our soul , which we other ways do by words , they are as innocent as our words ; and 't is impossible the actions should be idolatrous , whilst the words are orthodox : since being taught by the apostles , to have an honor in our hearts for the sign of the cross , 't is the same thing before god and men , whether we signifie this outwardly by our tongues , or by our lips , or by our hands , or by our heads , or by our knees ; these being only so many different kinds of speaking , to signifie one and the same sense of our hearts . and whilst they are so , there can be nothing justly charg'd upon any one of these ways of expressing , but will as certainly fall upon all the rest ; for they being all upon the same intention and design , of shewing outwardly the honor we are taught by the apostles to have in our hearts , and this honor thus severally express'd , being but one and the same , founded upon the relation the sign of the cross has to christ ; if it be a religious worship , when 't is signified by the knee , 't is religious too when signified by the tongue , and alike religious whilst 't is in the heart ; if it be idolatrous to express it by the knee in bending , 't is idolatrous too , to express it with the tongue in words ; and most of all idolatrous , as it is in the heart . upon this point turns the greatest part of this controversie , which of it self is very inconsiderable . but our answerer takes little care to see how the question stands ; he 's for exposing the church of rome , and as long as he has the knack of doing this by ridiculing , and drolling , what should he trouble himself with such impertinencies , as are stating the question , and speaking to the point ? he 's satisfied the word image-worship will do the work , without much need of longer proofs ; and therefore waving all such kind of controversial drudgery , he falls to the historical part , in which , from the different account of historians , the disagreement in time and place and other circumstances , he easily fills all with confusion and uncertainty . a tedious work he makes about the second council of nice , and sets it out in such abusive language , with so much contempt and scorn , that he seems , at his writing this character , to have come fresh from a billings-gate lecture . hear how he attacks that venerable synod : they were a pack of greeks ( says he pa. 38. ) that were neither the wisest , nor the honestest men in the world. then having undervalued the proofs of that council as senseless and ridiculous , he adds , pa. 39. now you may judge , whether these were not rare greek wits . yet we might forgive their want of brains , if they had been men of integrity ; but they were dishonest too . in this manner do's he complement this great synod with the honorable titles of fools and knaves . certainly he must be a wise man in his own conceit , who makes so bold with three hundred and fifty fathers , besides the popes legates , and the vicars of the oriental patriarchs . but i leave him in this buffoonry , wishing him only much joy of his admirable talent in this kind . the chief thing he urges against this council , is their establishing , as he pretends , superstitious errors , the worship or adoration of images , such as our author judges to be nothing else than idolatry ; in this , doing altogether like himself , who quarrels with every thing ; but how unlike the more learned and moderate divines of his own church , who vindicate this council from all such imputations ! mr. thorndike freely confessing , that he must maintain as unquestionable , that the council of nice injoyns no idolatry , epil . 3. pa. 363. and dr. field affirming , that the nicence fathers mean nothing else by adoration of images , but embracing , kissing , and reverently using of them , and like to the honor we do the books of holy scripture . ( of the church l. 3. c. 36. ) thus do these eminent men deliver their sense of this council and it's doctrin , which our author has thought fit to render so ridiculous to the world. he catches at words , and without examining or understanding them , makes idolatry and superstition of the most orthodox and christian doctrin : and this i look upon the occasion of his letting flie so furiously at this venerable synod , and of all his rallery against it . but i proceed to consider his other arguments . the principal thing he insists on , and which runs thro' his whole pamphlet , is , that we cannot make it appear , even as a thing probable , that images were so much as set up in churches in the primitive times ; and upon this practice , now so common in the church of rome , he presses her with the guilt of innovation . an excellent argument , well becoming a leader of the people ! but this is the motive of reforming . and do not some other reformers , upon the same grounds , prove the use of organs , in the divine service , to be an innovation ; since it cannot be made appear , even as probable , that there were any such things known to the primitive christians of the first three or four hundred years ? and do not others , still treading over the same steps , make the use of cathedrals and churches , of deanries and prebendaries , an innovation in christianity ; since in the primitive times there were no such things heard ●f ? after this rate some men are pleas'd to argue ; and at this pace the reformation may go on improving every day , till there 's nothing of christianity left , if such principles and reasons of some church of england reformers are but follow'd , as just and convincing . but these can have no authority , but with some weak and passionate men. others , who weigh things duely , know that the circumstances of the primitive christians , their being under severe persecution , their living and conversing in the middle of pagans and jews , &c. did make many things inconvenient and unseasonable at that time , especially such as related to the solemnity and order of the church , which otherwise were good and apostolical . this mr. montagu , a wise and learned man , throughly consider'd ; and particularly in relation to images , which , he says , in the first ages were but few or none in publick , not because they were then unlawful , or contrary to the doctrin of the apostles ; but because they were inconvenient in those times of persecution and paganism . i 'll here set down his own words to satisfie the answerer , and to let him see the difference between the spirit of peace and moderation , and that of bitterness and wrangling . thus then that worthy divine argues in his appeal to caesar , c. 23. as the ancient fathers of the primitive times had very few or no churches at all , at least of note , dignity or of receipt , because they liv'd in times of fierce persecution , and were seldom , or few of them stationary , but compell'd subinde mutare sedes ; so had they very few , i grant , or no pictures at all in public use amongst them , not so much as for ornament sake . and the reason was , because they lived continually amongst pagans , and were themselves , for the most part , such as had abandon'd and come over from paganism unto christ ; that were bred in , brought up in , inur'd to , and fast setled unto idolatry in image-worship . therefore they spoke against them with some tartness and inveighing sort , lest haply by conversing with , or neighboring upon pagans , or thro' former use of being mis-led by those pagans , the novel and tender shoots of christianity might receive hurt , and learn to worship idols , as those pagans did . in which words this author plainly declares , that tho' there was not the public use of images in the first ages ; yet the admittance of them afterwards into churches was no innovation , as our answerer pretends ; but the practising of a thing , which in all the precedent ages had been just and lawful , but not expedient , for the reasons here assign'd by him . which thing the same author has thus clearly deliver'd in the foregoing chapter , where speaking of the use of images : before st. gregory , says he , i know no such confest employment for them . he was the first that gave such public approbation unto them declaratorily , tho' it was trve doctrin in it self , before he ever profess'd it such . can any thing be more clearly express'd ? is it not evidently here acknowledg●d by a church of england divine , that the use of images , as approv'd and allow'd by pope gregory , who was for giving reverence and respect unto them , as this author confesses in the same chapter , was a true doctrin in it self ; tho' it was never professedly declar'd before this time ? and yet our answerer , unacquainted it seems with the doctrin of his own church , and with the circumstances of the primitive church , comes here with the full cry of innovation , giving the world and me a needless trouble of stating this controversie , which has been so long ago decided , as to this point , by a divine of his own church . but alas , some men , who have for a long time from their castle of priviledge , with a noisy , but empty controversie , peevishly declaim'd against all sorts of adversaries ; and there boastingly triumph'd , where they know no body dar'd contradict or question them , vainly think they may do the like in print , and that they may as easily impose upon all readers , as upon their hearers . and i desire our answerer to consider , how far he is here concern'd , who thus dares to venture abroad , with these raw and vnconnected notions . but the answerer is resolv'd however , to convince his reader of the unlawfulness of images ; and in order to this tells him , as before , that the antient heretics were friends to images . i wont ask here ; why then do's the church of england use them in her places of worship ? but , i 'll tell him in his own words , that this is a silly artifice ; and that every thing is not to be condemn'd , which was us'd by such a sort of people . he knows , i hope , that the antient heretics us'd the bible too , as likewise preaching and churches , and yet sure all these are not to be rejected upon this score . i have here shew'd him already out of his own authors , who first declaratorily establish'd the use of holy images , giving reverence and respect unto them ; and that this was a true doctrin in it self , before he ever profess'd it : and what matter then , if some heretics admitted of the same , who are wont to abuse even the best of things , as the answerer says , the gnostics did , pa. 57. who rankt christ's image with those of pythagoras , plato and aristotle . as to what he says before , pag. 53. that pope gregory i. and ii. contradict each other in this point , he would do well to explicate this fuller in his next ; for pope gregory ii. is no more for adoration of images , than gregory i. as appears in that letter of his to leo isaurus cited in nubes testium , pa. 183. where writing to the emperor : you charge us , says he , with the adoration of stones , and walls , and pictures . but 't is not so as you affirm , o emperor ! what we do is only to refresh our memory , to raise our minds to heaven , — and not , as you urge , to worship them as gods ; no , god forbid , we place no hope in them . how then do's he contradict gregory i. while he 's no more for worshiping images than he was ? but he that has forehead enough to charge me with a notion of invocating of images , as he do's , pa. 66. when i have no such word or hint , must not be call'd to an account for every thing he says . i have little more to consider in this letter of the answerer , besides his great kindness and affection to the heathens , who , with his good friend dr. stillingfleet , is so favorable to them , as in a manner to excuse them from idolatry , so the better to fix this crime upon the papists : tho' the doctrin of the papists , in this point , is so like what the church of england teaches , that ( as is shewn above ) there 's little difference betwixt them , besides about school terms and words . the world knows the good understanding there was between sultan solyman and martin luther , and how friendly the followers of this new prophet were taught to be to the turks ; but why our english reformers upon martin luther should be at this day so kind to the heathens , must be left to every one to guess . the answerer assures the person of quality , pa. 11. to whom he writes , that to charge the heathens with worshiping stocks and stones as gods , is to misrepresent them . and yet how many times has this very thing been instill'd into the peoples heads , as true of the papists , which now , as we are inform'd , is a misrepresentation , when affirm'd of the pagans ? are not the pagans here deeply indebted to these church of england men , in their owning them to be misrepresented , whilst the same abomination is so liberally charg'd upon the papists , and yet no misrepresentation there , if you 'l believe ' em ? this is to make the papists worse than heathens ; and without either respect to duty or good manners , to advance even now that plot-divinity , which was preach'd by a doctor before the house of commons , april 11. 1679. who setting out popery in such colors , as might be most effectual to excite that assembly to the drawing of blood , after several dreadful characters , at last pa. 30. thus concludes ; nay , says he , it is a religion , that will engage you in a more unnatural idolatry , than ever the pagans were guilty of . is not this a rare character of one christian from another ? nay from church of england christians too , such who pretend to so much charity and moderation above their neighbors ; and yet to cast forth so much gall and venom , that could be expected from none , but another julian , or a lucian ? but i take no advantage here , i consider this was deliver'd in a time of an epidemical madness ; and what wonder , if the pulpits did not escape the contagion ? but why at this time of the day should this lecture be read to the people ? is not the plot out of some people's heads yet ? is the infection so lasting ? but what shall we say ; the enclosure of some men's religion , is only to be against popery . they raise a monstrous notion in their own brains ; and while they expose this to the people , they make the innocent suffer for their delusion . they 'l joyn hands with the turk or the pagan , so they can but make a devil of the papist . and in this some of their furioso's are so blindly rash , that they care not how antichristian they make their own church , so they can but set out the papists for idolaters . for here i desire any serious man to consider , if the papists were thus really idolaters , as bad or worse than the heathens , as these men suggest , what advantage would this be to the church of england ? what kind of church must the church of england be , who has no ordination , succession , or authority of preaching , but what she has receiv'd from these idolaters ? what kind of church must she be , whilst she owns her self and these idolaters to be parts of the same church ? what kind of church must she be , whilst she acknowledges , that all her members for a thousand years before henry 8. were in communion with these idolaters ; and in all external rites and worship , were comprehended in the papacy ? must not she have been a very dissembling and adulterous church ; whilst believing internally the true and pure faith of christ , she did for so many years externally practise all the supposed superstitions and idolatries of the church of rome , which she judg'd to be most wicked and damnable ? is not this an admirable character of a pretended church of christ , to have play'd the hypocrit for so many ages , committing adultery with the supposed whore of babylon , and partaking in all her pretended abominations ? what greater blow could an enemy give to the church of england , than some of her divines do thus with their own hands , who , like spiritual janizaries , destroy their own mother church of which they are members ? for is it not evident , that whilst they endeavor to make the church of rome guilty of idolatry , they prove their own church for so many years to have been idolatrous , to have been a dissembling church , a church denying christ and his religion , a church for temporal respects committing many idolatries and superstitions , and consequently , no church at all ? and what more forcible argument need any dissenters to justifie their separation from the church of england ? for since the greatest part of those things upon which the dissent is founded , are such as have been instituted and commanded by the church of rome , why shou'd they receive them from the church of england , whilst these same church-guides , who press the observance , take so much pains to prove those from whom they receiv'd them , to be idolaters , and a sort of christians worse than heathens ? what reason has any man to joyn in such a form of worship and divine service , when he is assur'd , that those from whom the greatest part is borrow'd , are idolaters ? why should any be tied to such ceremonies , if those that instituted them were idolaters ? 't is but rational for every man to think , that if the papists are so stupid , so sottish , so ridiculous , such idolaters , so worse than heathens , as every little church-divine is pleas'd to render them , that the church of england , who retains so much of their service and ceremonies , must of necessity be so far like them in sottishness , ridiculosity , idolatry and heathenism ; and the only way to become a pure christian , must be to shake off , even that which she has retain'd . this is a very obvious reasoning ; and i don't question , has so powerfully wrought upon the minds of infinite numbers , and widen'd the separation to that degree , that the very crime of the church of england in her bitter and vnjust invectives against the papists , has by a just hand of god prov'd her punishment ; whilst her endeavors to alienate the peoples minds from popery , has embitter'd them even against her self , and been so fatal to her , that by the same means she has made people no papists , she has made them dissenters from her own communion , and rais'd to her self almost as many enemies , as she inteded against the church of rome . our answerer , has lent a helping hand in this point ; i do not mean here by his peevish , scandalous pulpit invectives ; but in this his pretended answer to this part of nubes testium ; whilst he has scarce any one argument , but what is levell'd as much against his own church ( if that be really his , which he pretends ) as against the papists : tho' in reality , to any intelligent reader , there is but very little against either : the whole being made up of vulgar sophisms , wordy disputes , and arguing at rovers : but the author is to be excus'd ; the whole is nothing more than a letter : and every body knows , that a letter , however proper it may be to the person , to whom 't is directed , is many times very absurd , when 't is divulg'd and made common ; wee 'l excuse therefore the writer , but really he is to blame that publish'd it . finis . a conference between two protestants and a papist, occasion'd by the late seasonable discourse lloyd, william, 1627-1717. 1673 approx. 77 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-05 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a48815 wing l2675 estc r23405 12762280 ocm 12762280 93523 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a48815) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 93523) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 987:18) a conference between two protestants and a papist, occasion'd by the late seasonable discourse lloyd, william, 1627-1717. [2], 33 p. s.n.], [london : 1673. reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. attributed to william lloyd, bp. of worcester. cf. nuc pre-1956. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng catholic church -controversial literature. protestantism -early works to 1800. 2003-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-12 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-03 amanda watson sampled and proofread 2004-03 amanda watson text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a conference between two protestants and a papist ; occasion'd by the late seasonable discourse . anno dom. 1673. to the reader . as chance is sometimes more lucky than design , an unexpected re●contre has discovered more to me of the inside of papists , than i could ever learn by enquiry . i carried a friend o● mine to a coffee-house , with no farther thoughts , than to divert my self for half an hour , and oblige him by ●n entertainment of little expense . in a corner of ●he room i observ'd a papist , one whom i had long known , alone and pensive , entertaining himself with his thoughts and pipe , and little minding the rest of the company , which was all seated some distance from him . the convenience of the place invited us to sit down by him , and there happen'd a discourse betwixt us , which i here communicate to you , as near as i can in the 〈◊〉 words in which it past , at least i am confident not differing in substance : for as soon as we parted i went immediately home , and writ it down , and as my memory was then fresh , and my attention had been great , i believe i have omitted nothing which was material . to avoid repetitions i will put an f. for my friend , a p. for the papist , and for my self an n. after the usual passages of civility were ended , i began the discourse in this manner . a conference , &c. n. i am sorry to observe your pensiveness . will you permit me to guess at the cause , and tell you , i suspect the late seasonable discourse may have some share in it ? p. i was indeed thinking of that book . n. truly i cannot blame your trouble . that gentleman has treated you something severely ; and if a book which brings you so much shame , bring you some sorrow too , you may be pardoned . p. i must confess i was very sorry to see that book , though for other reasons , it may be , than those which you imagine . but why do you think it so shameful to us ? n. why , is it not a great shame to be such stiff enemies ●s you are to so glorious a church as the church of england ; and such stiff ma●ntainers of so stupid a religion as yours is ? p. for my religion , this is no place to give account of it . there are books enough which treat of that subject . only , since you are acquainted with me , i appeal to your self , whether you do in earnest believe me so stupid as to be given to idolatry , or supersti●ion , or the belief of stories as impossible as amadis de gaul or the knight of the sun , which that gentleman charges on us . n. i must declare i think better of you . but you cannot deny your e●●●●ty to the church of england . p. i am ●a● from being an enemie to it . f. by your favour , sir , your principles are so fitted to the greatness of your great spiritual monarch , that you cannot be friends to any church but ●is , no not ev●n of your own communion . for you hold that nothing , upon the matter , can be done in matters o● religion , but what is done at rome . a convocation not call'd by allowance from thence , is thought but a conventicle . a bishop cannot be made , a canonry , a rectory granted , no dispensation given , no ecclesiastical authority exerc●z'd , but the pope must be at one end . i say nothing of our controversial differences , because i perceive you are not willing to meddle with them . but 't is plain that while you hold thus , all but italians , and those of the popes territories too , must needs be back friends to the churches of their native countreys . nay , you are within a little of leaving no churches to which you might be kind . for what is a church without authority ? and if all authority be in the church of rome , she is the onely church , and all the rest but so many parishes of her large diocese , so much the worse to be govern'd , by how much they are farther distant from the onely true bishop : for the rest will have no more than the name . p. how little do you understand how the world goes ? 't is ●rue , there are of my religion who are possest with this fancy , that unless the bishop of rome intervene almost in every thing , nothing is well done . and this i believe happens in a great measure , from a p●ece of policie the greatest that ever has been practised in that court. at least i have been inform'd so by one who assured me he learn'd so much at rome it self , and that from a regular too . and that is , the exemptions which have been granted to most regulars , and many chapters , which have been exempted to a great degree from the jurisdiction of their respective bishops , and subjected immediately to the pope . these communities thus exempted , are obliged for their own interest , and to prese●ve the ●dvantages which they enjoy by exemption , to magnifie the power which exempted them . by which means , both they themselves are brought to depend on the pope alone , and bishops too , who , all dependance on them being thus taken away , are left weak and defenseless , and unable to maintain their due authority . i cannot tell whether the jealousies of princes , peradv●nture suspicious of too much authority in their subjects , have no● much contributed to this eff●ct . for i see that in some places they have made particular agreements with the pope , against the inclinations , and even remonstrances of their own people , according to which their bishops are forced to regulate themselves . however it be this paramount , omnipotent ( if i may so call it ) authority of the b●shop of rome has been cry'd up so much , and so long , and by so many , and those so much concern'd ( though thought disinteressed by the vulgar ) that it has now gain'd a great vogue , and passes among those who look not into things , for unq●estionable . and yet the vogue is much less now than heretofore , before our countreyman occam began to write in behalf of lewis of bavaria . notwithstanding still there are who think the cry greater than the wool , and even complain and wish for remedy . that author , and you after him look upon this as part of my religion , when alas ! how many are there of my religion who look upon it as a grievance ? they were of my religion who made the several s●atures of provisors and praemunire , which alone would serve for answer to a good par● of the book in question . however they declare there very plainly that the interposing of the court of rome , and this even in presentments to benefices or at least cogn●●●nce of the plea , translation of bishop● , &c. ( which be matters spiritual enough ) are clearly against the king● crown and his regality used and approved of the time of all his progenitors — that the crown of england hath been so free at all times , that it hath been in no earthly subjection , but immediately subject to god in all things , touching the regality of the same , and to none other — and god defend , say they , it should be submitted to the pope ( as by the interposing aforesaid they declare it would ) and the laws and statutes of the realm by him defeated and avoided at his will — besides , that they will stand with the king , his crown and regality in the cases aforesaid , and in all other cases attempted against him , his crown and regality in all points to live and die . i know not , but methinks 't is very strange that people should be suspected of disaffection to their national church , and this out of too much affection to the pope , who a low not the pope to meddle so much as with the most inconsiderable benefice of the nation . i conceive it is the right of every n●tional church to provide for the particular concerns of that nation , without any necessity of recourse to forreigners . sure i am that we who live now , are as true englishmen as our ancestors , and love forreigners no more , nor think our selves ty'd to more subjection to them . if the state would think fit to allow us englishmen , s●ch of who●e fidelity and aff●ction to their countrey they were well assured , to whom we might have recourse for our spirit●al concerns , we should quickly remove their jealousies that we are over much affected to strangers . f. if you be so little affected to strangers , why do you not enter into t●e communion of the church of england ? p. while our controversial differences remain undecided , if we come , we must come with bad consciences ▪ and i suppose the church of england would not admit of hypocrites . neither indeed is it for her safety to receive those who do not believe as she doe● . f. if we must not expect you till the differences of religion be determined , i expect you not till doomsday . people have writ and writ these hundred years , and the more they write , the further we are from agreeing . the end of controversie and the end of the world i believe will happen both in one day . p. with any other church of the reformation perhaps it might be as you say : but i do not think the controversies betwixt the church of england and us so irreconcileable as you imagine . and for this reason understanding catholicks are more affected to her than any church of the reformation . she began the separation in an orderly way , and free from those tumultuous violences which happened in other places . and as things carried by deliberation are always better done , than when they are hurried on by heady ra●●ness , though we think she has gone t●o far , yet i believe her moderation has preserved what may one day help much to closing the breach betwixt us , when gods providence shall employ men about it who truly d●sire it . f. pray what do you mean by this ? p. i mean more than i shall perhaps upon the sudden remember . you must be contented with what occurs . f●rst we o●●●●ve that she , and peradventure she alone , has pr●serv'd the face of a continued mission , and uninterrupted ord●nation . then i● doctrines her moderation is great ▪ she professing , not posi●ively to disbelieve , but onely not to believe most , i● not ●ll , points in di●ference betwixt us ; and in th●se of greatest concern has ex●r●st her self very warily and so that her words may be brought to ●uit with our belief ; unl●●● where to gratifie , i suppose other dissenters , some harsh expr●ssion has been inserted beyond the intention of the first compilers of her doctrines . in discipline she ●reserves the government by bishops , agreeing in that point , which is of great concern , so alone with the church of rome , th●t when the reformation met in the synod of dort , the engl●sh , i ●hi●k , were the onely bishops there . but above all we pr●ze in h●r the aversion she has from fan●t●cism , and that wild error of the private spirit with wh●ch 't is impossible to deal , since what they believe to day they may disbelieve tomorrow . from this absurdity the church of england desi●es to keep he● self free . she holds indeed that scripture is the rule of controversie ; but she hol●s withall , tha● it is not o● private interpretation . she is for vin●●ntius lyrine●sis , quod ab omnibus , quod semper quod ubique ; and we are for the same . our controver●ists ind●●d generally ●●y , that tradition is the rule , and when this comes to be scan'd i believe it will be found , the true difference is more in words than meaning ; at least it may soon and easi●y be seen which of the two sp●ak more properly . however while we both agree in that me●hod of vincentius , which is an open visible way , and has nothing of the p●ivate ●ancy , miscall'd the spirit , methinks ' twe●e no ●●ch impossible thing to take our controversies one by one and try them by that test. we shall not insist upon what is not vincenti●● p●o●● , and what is sh● professes to ●m●race as well as we . n. i m●st conf●ss i did not reflect on ●o much bef●●e . but meth●nks so many learned and good men ●aving spent their time in the study of these things , they must needs have thought of all which can be thought on . and since we see no effect of all their medi●ations , i cannot but think there must of necessity be more in the case , some impossibility or other which has scap'd your observation . otherwise why should the breach last so long , if it may so easily be closed up ? p. i am not so vain to imagin i see all that can be seen . i tell you w●at appears to me . it may be there may be something which appears not . but i wish it were put to tryal , and learned and unpassionate men employ'd to consider what might be done . men o● animosity and stiffness , do more harm with their bitterness , than the● can do good with their learning . but if people would once l●y aside their passions , and not look upon one another as enemies , they might peradventure quickly cease to be so . you must needs perceive that the weak and the fierce , are a great deal more numerous than the judicious and the calm . when any thing is said or written on either side , which by good handling might be improv'd to some degree of reconcilement , generally there steps in som or other of the former sort , ( as the more ignorant and passionate a man is ▪ the more rash and busie he is too ) and by his fiery zeal not onely choaks the seed of any good overture , but for the most part makes things worse than they were before . 't is possible there may be some who do not desire contentions should be ended ; whether it be from a perverseness of nature , or the consideration of some particular interest . but i see with grief that moderate counsels have been discountenanc'd on both sides . even this author himself has a fling at pacific writ●rs . f. and has he not reason , when those peaceful pretences are but baits to catch the unwary proselyte , who when he is once hung , there is no getting loose again , but concessions are retracted , the painted shews washt off ; and he has nothing left but a fruitless repentance . p. as if we had any prisons in which to keep men against their will , and every man were no● free to leave us when he pleases ; as i suppose few would stay who should find themselves so deluded . 't is likely you may know some ; pray enquire of them whether they have more obtruded on them after they came to us , than they were made acquainted with before . here is that authors affirmation , and my denyal ; believe neither of us , but satisfie your self , of those who can speak of their own knowledge . n. i am glad to perceive the breach is not altogether so wide as some imagine ; but yet there is one reason which makes me despair of any good . and that is because you are , and must be always enemies to the state. believe me our church will no more harbor traytors than hippocrites . p. enemies to the state , and traitors . god forbid . n. be not offended at the harshness of my language , which i use not for malice , but to speak properly , and call things by their own names . 't is not t●at i charge you with actual treason , but with doctrines which wi●l make you traytors when ever they be put in practise . and in my opinion there is not much difference betwixt an actual traytor , and one who is ready to be so , as soon as there is occasion . p. truely i think there is not . f. if you think so , i do not see how you can be excused , that power which the pope claims to depose kings , and d●●pose of kingdoms is so destructive to the safety of princes , and q●iet of kingdoms , that you must needs see you cannot be good subjects , while you believe it . neither can you be papists if you believe it not . the pope will no more endure you not to hold it , than states can be safe where you do . p. this is a topick which never fails when any one has a mind to declaim against papists . it has been often objecte● and as often answered . since you oblige me to speak of it , let me tell you , you are wonderfully out in your apprehension of things . if the pope should break w●th all , who believe no● that power in him , he would quickly have but a thin communion . i am yet to learn the na●e and situation of that coun●ry which belie●es it . f. how of that country ? as if it were not beleev'd in all countrys of your communion . and that we may not doubt of it , bellarmine ( against barclay ) produces writers of all countrys who maintain it , i think he musters them up to 72 ▪ but sure they are not like the disciples butonly in number . p. bellarmine had undertaken to maintain that position , and makes as good a shew as he can . from the beginning of the world , or rather from gregory 7th . who is his first man , he has found out the number you mention , and others cite twice as many ag●●nst ●i● , some the very same alledg●d by him . how pertin●ntly on either sid● we cannot now examine . but i never th●●●ht of denying , those doctrines may be found in books ; i deny there is any nation to be found which believe them . authors m●y ●●ite , and yet find few who give credit to what they say . if we would know what people believe , we must consider what they do , not what scholars write . for let them write upon what motives they will , people certainly act according as they are perswaded . now to come to particulars , there are few nations , where the neighbourhood gave opportunity , but have at some time or other been at open enmity with the pope . the spaniards , who are thought the most devoted to him , have taken h●m prisoner . the d●ke of atva himself commanded an army against him , and forc'd him to his terms of peace . the venetians , not to mention other breaches , were so resolute in their contest with paul 5th , that it came to an interdict : and they neither obeyed it , nor would be brought by any sollicitation of powerful mediators to accept of absolution . other princes of italy have been at wars with him , and that lately in the times of vrban the 8 h. and innocent the 10th . of the french we shall speak by and by ; but these have had as many and as great contrasts with him , as any other . which of all these princes has been deserted by his subjects , or found them less ready to stand by them against the pope , than against anoth●r man ? had they indeed believed aright in the pope , to dep●●e princes , and dispose of kingdoms , they must needs taken his part ; and left their own princes defenceless ▪ but you see no such thing has happened , and may therefore certainly conclude they believe no such power . the pretence of it may be sometimes used to colour an unjustifiable action , when people can get no better ; but i am confident there is no prince or people in the world , who truely believe it . f. truely , i know not what to say to you , what you alledge is manifest , and kno●n to the world ; though i did not refl●ct on it before . but how comes it that doctrines so little believ'd are so openly maintain'd , and so maintain'd , that they are alltogether in vogue , and the contrary hardly find maintainers . p. the contrary doctrine never wants maintainers , when there is occasion ; neither are they the less numerous , or the less considerable , for making the less noise : whereof the reason is the eagerness with which the pope espouses an opinion so favourable to him , which hinders us from being willing to do any thing which we think he would take ill . and so we let people talk as they please , till there be a necessity of declaring plainly what we think . and then it plainly appears that the sence of the world is very different from the thoughts of those writers how much soever they be cryed up . neither are the maintainers even among writers so few , as you imagine . i am sure in our nation there have been more catholick writers against it than for it . thirteen eminent men subscribed a loyal profession to queen elizabeth , even alter the bull of pius the 5th . came o●t : to whom ▪ sayes widdrington , thrice thirteen would willingly have been added , had they not been prevented by the sudden publication of that profession . and when campian , sherwin , and some others gave evasions instead of answers to the questions , about the power of the pope and queen , one iohn bishop , a man devoted to the see of rome , ( says mr. cambden ) wrote against them , and foundly proved that that constitution of the lateran council obtruded under that name , upon which the whole authority of absolving subjects from their allegiance , and deposing princes is founded , is no other , than a decree of pope innocent the 3d. and was never admitted in england . yea that the said council was no council at all , nor was any thing at all there decreed by the fathers . f. but why do princes permit the course of such doctrines , which cannot but be dangerous , if ever the people should come to be perswaded of them , as if they go on uncheckt , 't is like enough they one day will. p. as if i would give account of the couns●ls of princes , or should think it fit , though i could ▪ i suppose they find it for their interest ; according to which , wise princes take t●eir measures , and having many intrigues with the pope , judge it advantagious to please him with words , which they see have little credit with the wise . when there is any occasion of contest , they know well enough that the wise will sway the rest . it may be they have at some time or other , made use of that pretence themselves , or foresee some occasion wherein they may . but neither is it true , that those d●ctrines go curran● ev●ry where . 't is treason in france , to print , or disperse , or so m●●h ●s keep the books wh●ch have been condemn'd for main●●●ning 〈◊〉 . ●nd his very book of bellarmins , which you have 〈◊〉 j●st now , is one . besides all the●r univ●si●ies have solemnly and particularly co●demned them , as pernicious , and ●ere ●ab●● co●trary to the word of god , &c. the decrees bot● of parliament and universities have been so often publisht that you must needs have seen them . f. i must confess i have . p. why then you see tho●e doctr●nes are not maintained every where , nor any condition of catholick communion any where . the pope communicates freely with the french for all this , and so does the rest of the world . which perhaps may be one reason why th●y are the less forward to condemn them in other places . for they see , ●hey can never pa●s for catholick , so much as in the opinion of the people , while so considerable a part of the church so openly disavows them . wherefore , reserving to themselves the liberty to do as they see fit upon occasion , t●ey are willing to gratify the pope in the mean time , and let scholars talk as they please , f. but pray what do you think of those doctrines your s●l● ? p. what should i think , but that they are false and naught ? f. and why do you not then disclaim them ? p. you see i do . f. i mean publickly , p. because it is to no purpose , and i fear would look as odly as the request of the cutpurse , who went to the constable and and would needs be set in the p●l●ory by him ; where when the flock●ng multitude ●o●d gazing and laughing at the mans folly , his companions pic●t all their pockets . shall i deal plainly with you ! 't is you your s●●ves who are the cause that the●e doctrines are not renouncd ' , o● wh●ch you pretend such fear . f. we● who are perpetually pressing you to renounce them , and there●o●e deal the more unkindly with you , because , ●i●l you do it we cannot think you honest men . p. and when we have given you satisfaction , pray what more kindness would you , or can you by law shew us ? the law makes no difference betwix● a papist who renounces , and a papist who holds those doctrines ; neither is there any penalty from which that renunciation would exempt him . on o●r side you know as well as we , there are some who have more k●ndness for them then fitting . it cannot otherwi●e be , but these men will look very untowardly on any who by such a publick renunciation shall condemn their perswasions , especially if he be neither obliged , nor so much as invited to do it . some of them have been passionate and rash , and will be apt to revenge themselves , by clamors and harsh censures , and peradventure cause intelligence to be given even at rome , where as they are very tender in this point , and very impatient of anything which they conceive shocks their authority , you may be sure they will do all that comes in their way to discountenance such a man , and work his discredit , and it may be discomfort . on the other side , you take no care to give him any manner of protection , or so much as countenance ; but leave him to shift as well as he can for himself , without any ease from the burthen to which he is otherwise subject . as your heats a● present , and often , are very great against us , none knowes but he may at last be turn'd a begging , and be forc'd to seek relief in forreign countrys , whe●e charity is like to be very cold to him , against whom the pope is incenst . what ever people think in their hearts , ) they will shew but little countenance to him against whom the pope declares himself . who would gratify you upon these terms , when a man is sure to live uncomfortably with those of his own communion , and receive no relief from you , forwhose sake he runs into that inco●venience ? a● you carry matters , 't is hard to be imagined otherwise , but ●hat whatever you say , you are in truth unwilling those doctrines should be renounc'd , perhaps least you lose something to say a●ainst us . do bu● provide that he who satisfies you in this particular , and r●nounce● those doctrines as fully as you can desire , be cherisht with some moderation , and taken into the protection of the laws , and then be angry freely with those that refuse to do it . m●ke them treason , if you will , h●re , as they are in france , fo● any concern i have in them . n. m● thinks you do your self much wrong , to keep these things conceal'd if every body knew as much as you have told us , perhaps the heats of which you complain might cool , and people be less incenst against you . p. i tell you no secrets . these things have been publish'd over and over and over again , but no not●ce is taken of them . this author objects these doctrines as freely , as if nothing had ever been said to the● . and yet considering how well he is acq●ainted with all sorts of books , sure he must needs know we areas ready to renounce them , as he is● forward to object them . f. i must confess you speak like an honest man ; but yet you answer for no more then your self . you may be , and i believe are innocent ; but you cannot deny there are among you men of other principles . and ●t would not be safe , for the sake of a few good , to cherish perhaps a great many bad n. nay sir , i cannot agree with you there . if you think it not safe , to protect the bad in respect of the good , i am sure it is not just to punish the good , for the faults of the bad. we bl●me them for holding these doctrines : what can we have more more of them , than to renounce them ? those who do this no●estly and fairly , without tricks or starting holes , what have we to say against them ? god forbid we should imitate the unreasonable severity of those nations , which when one man commits a fault , punish ●oth him , and all his relations , though never so innocent . 't is no such hard mat●er to discern which are fit for mercy , and which not ; and i wish others may think so too , and hope they will. but though i am in this particular , as i hope i always shall be , a freind to truth , i must needs declare to you i am no freind to popery . when i consider the many inconveniences which the seasonable discourse has well observed , i believe we cannot be too follicitous to keep it out . pray what think you ? p. i think 't is strange you should be so little acquainted with men , who live amongst you , and with whom you converse every day . the understanding part of those whom you call papists , have peradventure as little inclination to popery as your selves , and would joyn heartily with you , if there were occasion , to keep it out : especially if they were indulged such a proportion of mercy as might make them live with comfort . for while men live uneasily , i cannot say but they may have some inclinations to be at ease . f. how ! papists keep out popery ! you may as soon persuade me , that fire will keep out heat . p. i know not what credit i have to persuade you , but i tell you nothing but what i certainly know . pray cast your eye a while on our neighbors the hollanders , no fools in matters of government . they make a shift to allarm us with fears of popery , which being an odious thing , they think proper to cause jealousie among us , and serve their ends ; but their actions manifest that they believe nothing less . they have a greater number of papists than we have . they are a considerable part of their countrey , equal if not superior to any one party . whatever the hollanders say to amuze us , they are so far from being disquieted with fears of popery themselves , that they take the very priests into the protection of the magistrate , and give the rest a comfortable indulgence : not out of carelessness , but because they are secure . for while the papists have no pinching dissatisfactions to make them wish to change , they see well enough that they will not think of embroiling things , and upon uncertain hopes of a condition which cannot be much happier than the present , hazard to make themselves very unhappy by losing the present . so that till the papists can convert the whole nation one by one , the states see their religion will never be in other terms than it is , and that is so unlikely , that she never has the least suspicion of it . for this desire to make proselytes , which is common to all as well ●s papists , gains and loses particulars , but advances little in the general . experience shews the progres of either side is inconsiderable , and the benefit to the state very much . the papists upon many occasions having been found as faithful to the state , as any of their fellow subjects . even at this time , while they have war with a powerful enemy of that religion , and who has lodg'd a powerful army in the bowels of their countrey , they find the papists as fast to the interest of the state , as the best , and as earnest opposers of a forreign power , though likely to introduce their religion , if it should prevail . f. i am apt to believe that ease might hinder you from desiring change ; for men therefore change because they are uneasie . but 't is still incredible to me that you should in earnest ever resist popery . 't is a forregn enemy , not popery , which the holland papists oppose . p. but that forreign enemy , if he were suffered to come in , wou●d bring popery along with him . but let us unde●stand one another . i conceive you mean by popery what the word sign●fi●s , a blind addiction to the pope , and what this discourser meant , viz. something which is attended with those inconveniences he mentions . and i can assure you those among us that understand things , and know how to distinguish religion from abuse ( i will not undertake for every extravagant zealot ) would be as u●willing to admit them as your selves . do you think us so sensele●s as to be willing to forfeit our birth rights ? to be deprived of the b●nefit of our native laws ? to submit to the jurisdiction of forreign courts , and at the summons of every crafty wrangler to run a thousand miles a pettifogging ? do you think those among us who are possest of abby-lands , ( whereof many are still in the hands of p●pists , and make if not all , yet many times a great part of their estate ) would easily resign them , and beggar themselves and posterity ? do you think us unconcern'd in the wealth of the nation , or forward with an indian simplicity to barter gold for trifles ? f. but how could you help it ? p. help what ? we are troubled with no such grievances , nor ever mean to be . f. god-a-mercie reformation , which has remov'd those burthens . p. the statutes before mentioned eased as in part ; and hen. the 8. no great friend to the ●eformation , did the rest , and more perhaps , than were it to do again , your selves would do . but whatever was the cause , whether reformation , or any thing else , we are not subject unto those inconveniences now , and i believe shall never subject our selves to them by our good wills . f. your doctrines would subject you to them in spite of your teeth ; while you believe of the pope as you do , there is no remedy but you must let him act as he does . while you acknowledg him head of the uuniversal church , you must grant him power to make laws for the universal church , and when he makes them , you must obey them . therefore he may cross and weaken the laws of any particular nation , and remove proceedings to his own court as he pleaseth . you must either absolutly renounce him , or enslave your country : for this unavoidably follows from what you believe . p. i thought i had believed my share of the pope ; but i am sure i believe no such matter ; and ●m sure my catholick ancestors believed as little as 〈◊〉 . no remedy say you ? does the statute of praemunire be●ore mentioned , si●●●fie nothing ? no● the severe penalties elswhere enacted against all of what condition soever which shall draw any out any out of the realm , in plea whereof the cogniz●nce belongeth to the kings court , or whereof judgments be given in the kings court , or which do sue in any other court to defeat or impeach the judgment given in the kings court ? behold how much we think our selves obliged to forreign jurisdiction , and how forward we are to enslave our country . this is no place to dispute the popes authority . controversie does as ill in a coffe h●use as pollicy . but it seems n● hard matter to distinguish primacy from omnipotency , and t is easie to see he may be head , and yet cannot force laws on particular places without their consent . hen. 8th was by statute declared head of the church of england . that ti●le hath been since ch●nged into supream governour , which in my opinion , amounts to the same . however , neither the one nor the other enables our ●●●ngs to make laws without the consent of their subjects if you look into countrys of the popes communion , i do not believe that you will find any one , where they think themselves obliged by any law made at rome , purely by virtue of that authority . they allways examine it themselves , and if they think it convenient , they receive it , and that reception makes it binding ; otherwise , no man regards it , or thinks himself obliged by it , and perhaps would be punished if he should . the discourser mentions the canon law , which here we our selves do not wholly reject ; and when we do , must undo doctors-commons . now i understand not that the cannon law is obliging farther than it is received , or that any country is obliged to receive it , farther then as they find it for their convenience . every nation is at liberty to do what appears best for themselves and therefore we see what is binding in one place , signifies nothing in another . and since england is now free from the cannon law , more than she finds for her benefit , assure your selves papists would be as unwilling to part with that freedom as protestants . we love not to thrust our necks into yokes more than other people . i think indeed , if any decrees for the advantage of our country were sent from rome , we should not refuse a benefit , meerly because it came from thence . but we do not believe that what comes from thence , is obliging purely because it comes from thence ; but only , when after due examination , by due authority at home , it is by that authority made obliging . and this holds , not only in decrees of popes , but of councels too , though never so general . nations admit them as they like them , and so either receive all , or part , or none . every body knows that no inducements have yet been able to prevail with the french to receive such canons of the council of trent as concern manners . for which reason no man there is obliged to these decrees or any such , but where they will oblige themselves . f. what you say is really considerable . but i fear it does not quite do the business . there is a great difference betwixt laymen , and clergimen . the layety may be well enough affected to the peace of their country , to which they give their wifes and children for pledges ; but the clergy have no such hostages to give , and besides are so tyed by education , and , if they aim at any preferment that is considerable , by oath to the bishop of rome that we cannever be secure of them . shall i deal freely with you , and tell you an unwelcome truth ? 't is for the clergies sake , that we are the more jealous of you all . we could believe the laiety honest enough . but considering the influence the clergy has over them both by the respect which you bear them , and by the ty of confession , by which they are enabled to do even what they please , we can never be secure of one , unless we were secure of both . now for your regular clergy , your self acknowledges the immediate dependance they have on the pope by means of their exemptions . but we know besides , that all particulars vow obedience to their superiors ; which obedience passes for the greater vertue and more sublime perfection by how much the more blind it is . these superiors are subject to one another , till all comes at last to the general , to whom the whole order is absolutely subject . this general both lives at rome , and is many ways sure enough to the pope . so that if any one of the whole order displease him , the general presently takes his part , and enforces the obedience vow'd to himself , to whatever the pope desires . and as we see in reason this must needs happen , so we find by experience that it does ; as in the case of walsh , withrington , and others . your secular clergy , as you call them , indeed have not the same dependance , and were they left to their native liberty might do well enough . but the pope has found out an expedient to bring them to his bow , and requires such an oath both from bishops and other dignitaries , that those who take it must needs be more his subjects than their own princes . wherefore pray consider whether we can in any reason have a confidence in men who , though they be well disposed themselves , are governed by such as we know are tyed to the popes interest . p. the more i should think it is for your interest to allow us such as are of good principles , and of whose fidelity and affection to the interest of their country you might be assured . you know as well as we that , we cannot be without priests , and that whatever hazard we undergo , whether of estate or life , we must have some . so that unless you banish or hang us all up without more ado , while there is a papist in england , there will be a priest. now while you hinder us from having men brought up in such principles as might be free from jealousie , 't is not possible for us to do otherwise than we do : for we are forc'd to take such as we can get ; and if they prove otherwise principl'd than you would have them , the fault is none of ours . as for the objections , that vow of obedience which religious take , reaches no farther then to the better performance of the duties of that kind of life which they have chosen , and is so understood , and not otherwise , by those among them who are understanding . and if you apprehend any danger in it 't is very easie to make provision against it . but for the oath , which you mention , i must needs profess my ignorance ▪ i have never so●n ● nor heard of it , and therefore know not what to say to it . but i know in general that no subject can take any oath prejudicial to the safety or service of his native prince , and if he do is obliged not to keep it . neither do i think an oath can be imposed upon the subjects of any prince without his consent , or at least against his con●●●● . f. i easily believe you have not seen it , and that few of your layty are acquainted with such things . but , sir , we are better verst in your matters than you imagin . i think i have a copy of i● rendered into english at this time about me . yes , here it is . pray read it , and see if we have not reason to be jealous . and if you doubt of the translation , do you compare it with original latine , as 〈◊〉 is in the pontificale romanum ( of clement the 8 ) pro universo orbe christiano , printed at antwerp 1617. p. in. elect to the church of n from this day forward will be faithful to b. peter the apostle and the h. rom. church , and our lord n. pope n. and his successors canonically entring . i will not concur by counsel , consent or deed that they lose life or member or be unjustly taken , [ mala captione ] or violent hands in any manner laid upon them , or any injury done them under whatsoever pretext . i will not knowingly discover to any one to their prejudice any counsel with which they shall intrust me , either by themselves , by their messengers or letters . i will help them saving my order , against all men , to keep and defend the rom. papacy and regalities of s. peter . i will treat with honour , and in his necessities help a legat of the apostolic see both going and coming . i will endeavour to preserve , defend , increase and promote the rights , honours , privileges , and authority of the h. rom. church , our lord the pope , and his aforesaid successors . i will not communicate in counsel , deed , or treaty in which any thing sinister and prejudicial to their person , right , honour , state and power shall be design'd against our said lord , by the rom. church . and if i shall know any such thing to be treated , or endeavoured , i will hinder it to my power , and , as soon as ever i can , will acquaint our said 〈◊〉 therewith , or some body else by whom it may come to his knowledge . i will 〈◊〉 self observe , and cause to be observ'd by others , the rules of the h. fathers , the decrees , ordinances or dispositions , reservations , provisions , and apostolical commands . i will to my power prosecute and impugn hereticks , schismaticks , and rebels to our said lord and his said successors . if i be call'd to a synod , i will come , unless i be hindred by a canonical impediment . every three years i will personally visit the shrines of the apostles , and render account to our lord and his successors aforesaid of my whole pastoral office , and of all things any way belonging to the state of my church , the discipline of the clergy and people , and the health of souls entrusted to my charge , and on the other side will humbly receive and most diligently perform the apostolical commands . if i be detained by a lawful impediment , i will fulfill all aforesaid by a special messenger having a special mandate to that purpose , chosen from the bosom of my chapter , or some other ecclesiastical dignitary , or otherwise having some ecclesiastical personage ; or in default of such , by some priest of my diocess ; and if there be none of my clergy , by some other priest secular or regular , of approved virtue & religion fully instructed in all matters aforesaid . and of such impediment i will make lawfull proof to be sent by my said messenger to the cardinal presiding [ proponert●m ] in the congregation of the sacred council . i will not sell , nor give nor pawn , nor mortgage anew , [ infeudabo ] nor alienate in any manner the possessions belonging to my table even with the consent of the chapter of my church , without consulting the bishop of rome . and if i do proceed to any alienation , i consent ●o ipso to incur the penalties contain'd in a certain constitution set forth of this matter : so help me god and these h. ghospels of god. f. well , sir , what say you to it ? p. i say i would not take it for the best bishoprick in christendom . as far as i can judg it is direct prae●●nire , and perhaps worse . but pray , sir , where did you find it ? those princes who are of the popes communion are careful enough of their authority . it seems impossible they should be ignorant of it , and incredible they shou'd permit their subjects to take it . i cannot believe it is in use , wherever you found it . f. i have never been present at the consecration of any of your bishops , to say of my own knowledg that it is taken : but i know it is prescribed in your pontifical to be taken ; and i suppose your bishops are consecrated according to the prescriptions of your pontifical . p. really , sir , you tell me news , and such as i dare answer there is not on one ( at least lay ▪ ) catholick in ten thousand that ever heard of it . i will not question the truth of what you ●ay , because i do not mistrust you ; and besides 't is an easie matter when i can meet with a pontifical to see what is there . but i must still remain of my former opinion , that 't is not generally in use , though perhaps it may be in the popes own territories . the authority of the pontifical is no proof as to that point . for other countreys have their pontificals and liturgies of their own framing , and that may be in the roman pontifical which perhaps is no where else . that 't is of no ancient standing , is clear by the oath it self , which mentions the congregation of the sacred council , and every body knows that that congregation was erected since the council of trent ; and every body knows too tha● since that time popes have not had that credit in the world that they could impose oaths upon the subjects of other princes without the consent of those princes . for england in particular , besides the statutes beforementioned , which in my opinion quash it sufficiently , there is mention in sir ed cook in his 3 book of institutes tit . praemuni●e , of a renunciation used even from the times of ed. 1. and ed. 2 in these words : i renounce all the words comprised in the popes bull to me made of the bishoprick of a which ●e contrary or prejudicial to the king our soveraign lord and to his crown , and of that i put my self humbly in his grace , praying to have restitution of the temporalities of my church . this renunciation must needs be a great deal more ancient than this oath ; and since our catholick ancestors thought fit to renounce all words inserted in bulls prejudicial , though to a less degree , than this oath . however it be 't is a clear case that being made by the pope none can be more obliged to take it , than to receive his other decrees , which as we have discourst already , no nation is oblig'd to do , but by free consent , as far as they find them beneficial to themselves . wherefore as i said before , allow us ecclesiastical ministers , of whose fidelity you may be assured , and we will be careful enough , you may be sure not to run rashly and ca●slesly into praemunires ; or if we do , the pope himself cannot blame you if you severely execute those laws which have been made even by catholicks . but if you force us to take them upon such terms as we can get them , we are blameless if things happen which we cannot avoid . f. why but you cannot avoid this . for let us allow you what liberty we will , the pope never make you bishops on other terms ; and you believe bishops cannot be made but by him , or authority derived from him . p. i have already told you i do not believe bishops are made any where upon those terms , except perhaps in his own territories ; but i am very certain , they need not be any where ; and am farther very certain that in england they should not be , if you would allow us the liberty of acting in the concerns of religion openly , and without such fear of the laws that many times we do we know not what our selves . believe me the pope is too wise to give occasion to examin whether b●shops may not be made without his intervening . for 't is well known that bishops were made , and governed the church a long time , and he never medled in the business . and at this day there are who will by no means use the ordinary stile , dei & aposholica sedis gratia , but leave apostolica sedis quite out . the recourse , which is now had to him , i believe was occasioned by the frequent abuses which happened in promotions , and which is thought so far from necessary even now , that , if i mistake not , the canons are still in force , which order that unless he provide for a vacant sea , within a time limited , and that no long one , the three next bishops shall make one without more ado . however this collation of bishopricks by the pope , is plainly by canon law , and subject to the contingencies and nature of other canons . ● . to let pass at present , what you answer only , and me● thinks unsatisfactorily as before , of your remaining ●il● of your former opinion , so here again of your not believing that bishops are made any where upon those terms , except perhaps in the popes own territories : and not to press you further home on this po●nt . first , by telling you , not with any perhaps , or peradventure , but most certainly , that all bishops either named , created , confirmed , or consecrated by virtue of the popes bulls , not only for his own temporal territories , but for any where else throughout the world , are made upon those termes ; and that no less certainly , that very pontificale romanam which prescribes the aforesaid oath to be taken by all arch bishops , and all bishops , and all abbots too , at their consecration , nay and to be taken twice by every arch bishop , videlicet . first , at his consecration , and the second time at his receiving the pallium ) is no less the pontifical now in use throughout all churches acknowledging the popes supremacy , than the roman breviary , and the roman missal are are the only breviary and missal now in publick use in the same churches as it is known they are . secondly , by assuring you also , there are even at this present , within his majesties dominions , nay in one of them , i. e. ireland , residing now publickly enough , at home in their diocesses , at least nine ticular new bishops , and ●ower also new arch-bishops , in all thirteen ( besides two more alive still of the old nuncio bishops ) and every one of them created by the pope , within these four la●st years since 1669 , consecrated according to the prescription of that roman pontifical only , and swor● the popes devoted bondslaves for ever , by that very oath ; that oath , which you please to call it , either of strictest ( however sacrilegious ) fidelity to the pope , or of most per●idious treachery against the king and kingdom ; for it is both ; and you your self will easily believe they do & will hold to it , being they are so far from thinking not only not to renounce all ( nay nor any of ) the words comprised in the popes respective bulls , to them made of their several bishopricks , which be contrary or prejudicial to the king our sovereign lord and to his crown , nor only not so much as to renounce any part of those even most notoriously traiterous promises of the aforesaid oath , not even so much as virtually , or indirectly , or even implicitely to renounce any part of them by taking either the usual oaths of supremacy or allegiance , or even any other kind of oath of fidelity to the king , that on the contrary it is manifestly known they have all of them ever since their consecration , made it their work , not only to suppres● utterly that now so lamed irish remonstrance ( or profession of fidelity to the king in all temporal affairs according to the laws of the land ) presented to , and accepted by his majesty in the year 1661 , but also to prosecute with incredible malice for so many years all those other irish ecclesiasticks of their church , who in the said year or any time since had signed ( as only for having signed ) that formulory , until at last by such wicked ways they have forced most , of these forlorn subjects ( forlorn i call them , because of one side persecuted by the pope , and of the other not protected by our laws ) to retract their subscription , and consequently and even under their own hands to renounce utterly their allegiance to the king ; nay even also ( and which must be consequential to disclaim their acknowledgment of his being their king at all in any matter or cause whatsoever , being he cannot be acknowledged king at all , if he be not acknowledged king at least in all civil and temporal affairs according to the laws of the land , or in indispensable obedience and faith be not acknowledged to be due to him in such matters , from all his subjects . thirdly , by desiring you to consider , that of all the roman catholicks , by all right and laws , subject to the king , the great and considerable body indeed , is only the irish nation , instructed now and wholy ( as to point of conscience ) governed by those very bishops and arch-bishops , how apt , as those instructors , so the instructed irish generally taken , are in the present conjuncture for any kind of bad impressions , from abroad , and consequen●ly for another , fatal revolution at home and what other probable design , then that of preparing them for a new rebellion in due time or fit opportunity at home , cou●d ther● be in those eager persecutions continued so inexorably , scandalously , and incessantly these eleven years past , both by the court of rome abroad , and by all its emissaries at home , although more violently and confidently these four last years by the foresaid new bishops and arch-bishops , and all their underlings and other adherents against so innocent a profession of allegiance or promise of obedience in temporal things on●y to the king ? nay what other probable design could there be ( but that ) of creating in , and commanding home too , and crouding in that kingdom so many titular bishops and arch-bishops ( besides vicars apostolick with episcopal jurisdiction in so many other of the vacant sees , and besides too so many nunciotist provincials of regular orders , and abbots also ) and that immediately upon the duke of ormonds removal from that government in the year 1669 ? bishops and arch-bishops without benefice , without revenue , without patrimony , or other means to maintain them , but what they get neither by preaching nor praying , but by poling and pilling and fleecing and flaying the poor both priests and people under their pretended jurisdiction ; though withal , i must confess , devou●ing even already in hopes , those indeed considerable temporalties which the protestant bishops enjoy at present according to law ; pluncket of ardmagh 5000 l. a year old revenue , lawfully as yet possessed by margetson of the same see ; talbot of dublin thetwo or 3000 l. of that see also , which boyl or michael dubliniensis hath now in legal possession : and so for the rest all over ireland respectively . which revenues , as they were one of the chief causes of the last rebellion ; think you they may not in all likelyhood be of another yet in our days ? being those papal bishops hold these royal prelates to be meer usurpers even of those very temporal revenues , and know themselves are entituled by the popes bulls not only to the spiritual jurisciction but unto all kind of temporals belonging to their respective sees , and were both created and commanded home to ireland ( as others , their predecessors had been in so great number immediately before the last rebellion in 1641 ) of purpose to try their fortune , or what they might do for playing the old game over again . and in the fourth place , by entreating you moreover to reflect on all the particulars of the foresaid oath , in which particulars those papal bishops bind themselves with so much solemnity and sacriledg to be traitors , certainly at least to a protestant king , and kingdome ; unless peradventure you think that neither that neither the popes canon law , nor council of trent , nor bulla coenae , nor court of rome it self . nor these bishops themselves , hold protestants to be either hereticks or schismaticks : or that you see not how these bishops bind themselves even to persecute to their power all hereticks & schismaticks whatsoever . and how , if they will not be and continue traitors to the king , they must be at rome esteemed even perjured villains , and rebels too against the pope , whom they do ( as they are indeed by the tenor of the said oath obliged to ) maintain to be doubtless the only supream lord of ireland ( yea england , &c ) both in temporals and spirituals . now what confidence th●nk you can be , by a protest n king or people reposed in such men ( even what ever they may chance say , or swear hereafter ) who of their own free accord , nay desire , ambition , and migh●y solicitation , that i may say no more , put an absolute necessity on themselves even at their holy consecration , either to be traitors perpetually to the king , or continually perjured to the pope ? though otherwise , i must confess , they are by the eternal law of god and man , and reason also , bound to be so perjured . i say , that to let pass at present all these considerations , and many more too , which no less materially than occasionally might be returned to your answer , videlicet , either that of your remaining still of your former opinion , or that which in effect is the same ) of you not believing that bishops are made any where upon those terms except perhaps in the popes own territories : nor to press you at all with those insoluble arguments , being you not only seem to be an absolute stranger to all affairs in the kingdom of ireland , wherein i cannot be so , as having a good part of my estate lying there upon the account of an old adventurer by the act of decimo septimo caroli primi but you also , and indeed no less plainly then honestly condemn that wicked , traiterous nay cruel too and barbarous oath , ( albeit indeed the chief support , nay together with the profession of faith , and other oath also ther● in contained , ordered by pius the 4th . to be ma●e and sworn both by all whatsoever bishops , and by all dignitaries too , yea all canons , parsons , curats , all beneficed clerkwh●tsoever that have the care of souls , yea also by all superiors of monasteries , convents , houses , places of regular orders , ( understand orders not mendicant ) even those also of millitary orders ) the only support of the otherwise tottering papacy : i say therefore that not to give you any more trouble at present , with those or any other such , however material replies , nor expecting any r●joynder from you to them , what i am to tell you now , is first , my own ingenuous acknowledgment ; that if but even all the rest you say be true , your religion as it is , does not make you all stupid . and that for ought i perceive there be honest and sensible men among you . the next is , that notwithstanding all your seeming candor , i cannot thorowly believe you , while you hold the faith is not to be kept with hereticks . for , if indeed you hold this tenent , who can be perswaded , there is any trust so much as to your solemn promises , much less private protestations . p. shall i give you a short answer ? being you acquit me at present of all the rest . whoever holds so , hang him up in gods name ; for no honest man will think him worthy to live . many of you deal with us both at home and abroad ; i hope you find us deal as fairly as o●her men . not but that you may have met with knaves : for there are knaves and honest men of all professions . but he that cheats one of another religion , would not spare one of his own i warrant him . as for the truth of wha● i say , ' t●s easie to try . cherish with some comfortable moderation , and take into the protection of the law , such as shall secure you in the man●er you shall think fit , that they truly are so perswaded as i have informed you , ( for i have already to●d you , that every body will be shy to offend the pop● and not be secure so much as of protection ) but shew indulgence to those who shall renounce the power which you except against , to depose kings and dispose of kingdoms , and if the statutes of praemunire and the rest , be not enough , find out what more punishment you please , for those who shall receive and obey decrees sent from rome , without allowance of the state : and for those who refuse to give you such security , treat them w●●● 〈◊〉 severity you please . n. what think you friend ? to my apprehension this seems but fair . for methinks 't is a preposterous cross piece of wisdom , to be perpetual , y disquieting our selves with fears . of papists and not admit them to secure us against those fears . as if we were afraid not to be afraid of them : or as if it were for our t● est to keep up our jealousies , and not suffer them by any means to be taken away . f. i am of the mind ; but yet while people remember queen marys days , the powder treason , the massacres in france and ireland , and inquisition every where ; things as manifest as horrid , i doubt they will always be afraid ; though i see withall it is somthing hard to make those who live now bear the blame both of past generations , and other nations . p. you would think it yet harder , if you knew how truly we abhor such things , and how little share religion had in them . it was the influence , which the severe humour had of king philip had upon the counsels of england , which brought that blemish upon queen marys days . he was one who thought violent remedies the best , insom●●h that he spared not the ashes of a man in whose arms his own father had yielded up his breath . by his inflexible fi●ure upon such courses he lost the low countrys , and is become an example to the world , how little severity is proper in matters of religion . for had the cruelty of those days been effectualy to the ends , for which it was used , you had not been now to upbraid us with it . religion was not the cause of the massacres you mention ; but fear of a powerful faction in france ; and hate of a forreign and commanding nation in ireland . in both cases it happened indeed by chance , that there was difference of r●l●gion , but had they been all of the same religion , the barbarous violence would not have been less cruel . massacres have been in other p●aces , even in england , and where hate , or revenge , or any other violent passion hurries men to them , they spare their own religion no more than another ▪ cruelty shows so ugly , that 't is no wonder if those , who are guilty of it , desire to hide it under some handsomer vizard : and religion being the most specious of all other , if every body take it up that can , and desire to pass rather for zealous than barbarous : and ●so poor religion must be abused to disguise the fear of france , and hate of ireland , and rebellion of england , ( ●or here t was pretended too , as t will be in all places ) and all this while is a meer pretence , and least of all aim'd at by those who cry loudest out upon it . by the way , if i may speak of ireland in particular , without the imputation of approving what past there , for in truth i abhor those passages too much to go about so much as to excuse them , i could wish that the author who mentions the lord orrery would h●ve taken some notice too of what is answered by p. w your author mentions two hundred thousand throats cut : p. w. affi●ms that my lord himself bates half the number , and yet confidently avows , and that to the duke of ormond who should know , that even that number is exorbitantly vast . and i am sure i have heard from those who are well acquainted with particulars ● and ●●fficient haters of those cruelties , that they defyed all the world to make good the murder of half one hundred thousand , or so much as twenty thousand , or even one thousand slain otherwise than in the wars ; and where things are so bad of themselves methinks there is no need to make them worse than they are . the powder traytors were papists , 't is true ; and 't is true likewise th●t that there are and allways will be wicked men of all religions . had papists been their judges they would have scap'd no better than they did . i think there is no more to be said of them , but this , in which i am sure all honest men agree , that the justice of that law which past upon them , had more of mercy than they deserv'd . for the in quisition take my word papists like it no more then you . but you are much out when you think 't is every where . the pope with all his credit cannot settle it any where but in italy and spain , and that with cautions enow too , except just in his own territories , where he may order things as he pleases . those princes who receiveit , conceave it is for their interest , and 't is by their authority introduc'd among their subjects , whereof i believe there are many ill satisfyed with it . for us who are englishmen , i dare answer there is not one who would not oppose it with all his power . f. there is but one thing more which i shall propose to you , and that i decare is more for the satisfaction of my curiosity , then that i believe any great matter in it . but yet why do you not take the discoursers counsel in one thing , and clear your selves from the imputation of sacred bloud charg'd home upon you by the answerer of philanax anglicus . p. it is an imputation so wild and manifestly groundless , that i do not think any understanding m●n , though never so great an enemy to papists , gives any credit to it . does not all the world which side the papists took ? inquiry has been made for the guilt of that sacred bloud , and all england knows they were not papists who were found guilty . if they had , i wonder who would protect popish traytors . if the rebellion , as that author would pe●swade us , was rais'd and fomented by the arts of th● court of rome , it is as plain case that the court of rome had very little influence upon the papists here● , who acted quite contrary to their designs . it is undenyable that to design the kings ruin , and at the same time to fight to preserve him from ruin , are inconsistent and impossible thin●s . to go about seriously to answer such extravagant fancies , is to give them a credit which they otherwise have not , nor can have with any man of judgment . f. for all that he tells very shrewd stories , and such as he undertakes to make good . p. if he can make good his understanding , i think he is no friend to his country to let traytors lye conceal'd in it , whom he can discover . wherefore in behalf of justice , and reverence to that sacred person a loyalty to his sacred success●r , i summon him to make good what he says he can , and require at his hands that he spare none , whoever they be , but expose them all to deserved punishment . and i am confident i shall be disavow'd by none of my religion , if in this particular i disclaim all benefit of the of the act of oblivion for any of us . for his stories by your favour they are far from shrewd , he talks of a priest and confessor who flourisht his sword at the kings death . this story if i we●l remember , i have seen in one of mr. prinn's books , and he ●athers it upon a dead man , who is sure enough will not rise again to disprove him . but as luck is , he says ' ●was the queens confessor and 't is sufficiently known that the queens confessor do's not use to leave the person of the queen , and 't is more than sufficiently known that the queen at that time was not in england . and were it to purpose , i believe there are yet living those , who can testifie on their knowledge where the queens confessor then was . so that 't was something shrewdly done of the answerer , to leave out that particular , who this confessor was , by which the forgery of the story may be detected , and involve the matter in a general charge , which none knows how to answer ; otherwise he has said nothing but what every body could see throu●h that read it in mr. prinn . ag●●n he tells of 30. jesuits betwixt roan and diepe , who discovered strange designs to one whom they took to be of their party . and if he or any man ever saw 30 jesuits upon a r●ad together , or if he did can fancy them to simple , as to discover their designs to men they know not , i am content he believes ev'en what he pleases . then he talk of the f●yar ●s that dunkirk , whom he makes to vy with the jesuits , for the glory of that inhuman action ; and this before an understa●ding gentl●man . but certain 't was no great sign of understanding ; to broach such a story , when all the world knows there n●ither are , nor ever were any f●ya●s at dunki●k , english i mean , for str●nge●s , i suppose he will not make so concern'd in the affai●s of our country . he talks too of our transformations ●nto indepe●dents to make england depend on the pope , and fift monarchyst's to ruine the english monarchy , and agitator , and i know not what , i suppose to shew he can quibble ; otherwise every body le●s if we could so easily , and undiscoverably disguise our selves , we were mad if we took not all the shape of protestants , and so avoided the danger of the law without more ado . for who should find us out if we could make all the wo●ld believe we were protestants ? alas ● you know , and we know too we●l , that a papist cannot long conceal his religion . if these be your shrewd stories , your hate to us will let any thing p●ss ; i have not seen any thing that pretends to serious , less significant , and a body would have thought a church-man should better know what belong to defaming our neigebour , tha● to expose the credit of a great many innocent men to scandal upon such no-grounds as he mentions . f nay sir , i declared before , it was only out of curiosity i spoke of this matter , for i ever thought it very od , you should be lookt upon as friends to the king during all the times of confusion , and for that reason be out of favour with all the several changes of government , and of a sudden be charged with annuity to the king when he came in . but i thank you for the information you have given us , and avow fr●ely to you , i shall carry away apprehensions of you very different from what i brought in . for indeed i thought the blind implicite obedience had involv'd you all into stupid and unsufferable errors , and rendred you unfit , not only for protection , but even harbor amongst honest men : but i perceive 't is with you , as with the rest of the world , where there are good and bad of all sorts , and though i have no kindness for your religion yet i will confess i begin to wish as well as you , that the book which has occasioned all our discourse had not been written ; for methinks 't is hard to charge the follies of some , without distinction upon a●● . p. i cannot tell what the design of the author was . 't is in the number of unknowable secrets , and we ought still to judge favourably of things we know not . but his book seems apt to stir animosities , which if he judge seasonable , i should think not so charitable . neither can i understand why the moderate share we had in the late indulgence , should occasion so much zeal against us , and none against others who were more largly indulged , and are otherwise much and many ways more considerable : especially , when i consider the topies he uses , your religion , says he , is an excellent religion , and ours full of stupidity : be it so ; may we not therefore be permitted to say our prayers in private ? which is all the indulgence allow'd us . sure t is no part of the goodness of your church to hinder others from being as good as they can ; and the worse our religion is , the more need we have of praying to make us better . again let the pope claim what power he pleases , and that power be as inconvenient as that gentleman pleases ; private prayer will not therefore be inconvenient , or you receive any harm from what passes in private . against seditious doctrines , such as those are declared by catholicks to be , i hope the laws takes order , and they are excepthd by the very declaration . 't is the name of abby lands and vbby-lubbers ▪ and the rest of the inconveniences he mentions ; private prayer certainly will never pray them in , and were there any danger of them , we should help you to our powers to keep them out . his topic of auricular confession , in my opinion might have been spared in respect to the church of england , which is far from disaproving such confession . and however every body must needs see that there are nations , who use it , as careful of the honours , of their families every jot as the english , and something more jealous . an abuse may sometimes happen , from which there is nothing so sacred that can always be free but good things are not to be taken away because t is possible they may be abused . at worst i do not see that you are concern'd . if we have a mind to prostitute our wives and daughters , how are youth● less safe , or which way endanger'd if we be all wh●res and cuckolds . we fell a laughing at that expression , and that laughter broke of our discourse , and soon after our company . i parted as soon as i had payd our coffee , and i wish you may think your few pence as well bestow d on the relation as i did mine to hear it . finis . the fore-runner of bels dovvnefall wherin, is breifely answered his braggnig [sic] offer of disputation, and insolent late challenge: the particularties [sic] of the confutation of his bookes, shortly by goddes grace to be published, are mentioned: with à breife answere, to his crakinge and calumnious confutinge of papistes by papistes them selues: and lastly à taste. giuen of his rare pretended sinceritye, with som few examples. woodward, philip, ca. 1557-1610. 1605 approx. 73 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 31 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a15697 stc 25972.5 estc s114156 99849384 99849384 14525 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a15697) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 14525) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 855:15, 1979:11) the fore-runner of bels dovvnefall wherin, is breifely answered his braggnig [sic] offer of disputation, and insolent late challenge: the particularties [sic] of the confutation of his bookes, shortly by goddes grace to be published, are mentioned: with à breife answere, to his crakinge and calumnious confutinge of papistes by papistes them selues: and lastly à taste. giuen of his rare pretended sinceritye, with som few examples. woodward, philip, ca. 1557-1610. parsons, robert, 1546-1610, attributed name. [2], 59, [1] p. printed by c. boscard], [douai : anno m.dc.v. [1605] signed at end: b.c., i.e. philip woodward. misattributed to robert parsons. a reply to: bell, thomas. the downefall of poperie. place of publication and printer's name from stc. running title reads: the fore-runner, of bels downefal. identified as stc 19407 on reel 855. reproductions of the original in the henry e. huntington library and art gallery. appears at reel 855 and at reel 1979 (same copy filmed twice). created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng bell, thomas, fl. 1593-1610. -downefall of poperie -controversial literature -early works to 1800. catholic church -apologetic works -early works to 1800. protestantism -controversial literature -early works to 1800. 2005-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-05 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2005-05 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the fore-runner of bels dovvnefall , wherin , is breisely answered his braggnig offer of disputation , and insolent late challenge : the particularties of the confutation of his bookes , shortly by goddes grace to be published , are mentioned : with à breife answere , to his crakinge and calumnious confutinge of papistes by papistes them selues : and lastly à taste . giuen of his rare pretended sinceritye , with som few examples . ierem. 51. v. 44. i wil visit bel vpon babilon , and cast forth of his mouth , that which he hath swallowed vp : and the gentils shal no more flocke vnto him and that because the wall of babilon shall fall downe , anno m. d c. v. the fore-rvnner of bels dovvnefal . the vaine and foolishe title of his booke , with a note of a quadruple deuise , which he vseth to winne him self credit , and to endomage the catholike cause . chap. i. there came lately to my handes , a certaine booke presented the last easter tea●me to the viewe of the worlde , by one thomas bell , long since à minister , after that a preist , and for some yeares past , and at this present , sicut erat in principio : as it was in the begininge : a minister againe : in which state he meaneth constantly to continue , vntil the lord by new reuelation shal otherwise dispose of his person . the title of his booke looketh bigge as though it had eaten buls-beife , and accordinge to the comon sayinge , as the deuile lockt ouer lincolne , and is readie to quarrel with any papist whatsoeuer : this it is . the downefal of poperie proposed by way of a new challenge , to al englishe iesuites , and iesuited , or italianized papistes : daringe them al ioyntlie , and euery one of them seuerally , to make answere thereunto , if they can , or haue any truth on their side : knowinge for truth , that otherwise al the worlde wil crye with open mouthes , fye vpon them , and their patched hotch-potch religion . this name of his booke by al probabilitie , was giuen by the godfather , when he was in the ruffe of his roperye , and came hastely into the kitchin , from some homely place , where a bad sent had intertained his smellinge instrumēt ( daungerous in these times of infection for an emptie stomake ) and not findinge there any meate meete for his ministerships mouth , but only an odd hotch-potch , fel into some cholerike pange , in which distemperature returninge to his studye , the title was begotten ; for otherwise why him self , being à patched minister , created of two recantations , should cal our religion à patched hotch-potch i cannot see , nor i thynke him self , hauing yet the eies of two ministres , and one preist . our church hath not stoode simperinge in a close pot , or poore pipkin , no man can tel where , for i know not for how many hundred yeares together , as their cōgregation hath ( which though falsely pretended , is the best cloake they can finde to couer the shame oft hir naked continuance ) but hath alwayes borne saile in the sight of the worlde , maugre the malice of the deuile , and al the tempestes of persecution , that the furies of hell could raise : neither is our religion patched together of many mamockes of olde stinkinge heretical assertions , as their faith is , where denienge of prayers for the dead , and the appointed fastes of the church , borowed from aerius : scorninge of reliques , scoffinge at inuocations of saintes , reiectinge voluntary pouertie , and allowance of preistes , taken from vigilantius , raylinge at the holy crosse , and sacred images : receiued from iulian the apostata , and miscreant mahumetanes : and diuers other such like fragments , scraped together , be in their congregatione entertained for heauenlye articles : and so whether it may not truly be tearmed , à patched hotch-poch religion , and godles galimamphorye of a new gospel , i leaue to indifferent iudgment . diuers other bookes in former times , hath he also diuulged , ( for he had rather be ill occupied then idle ) each of them , one so like another , that any man may easely knowe them to be puppies of one litter , & sundrie puddles stewinge from one sincke . in al which the principal scope he outwardly aymeth at , is the ouerthrowe of poperie , as he speaketh , and the aduancement of the truth : but whether any pharaisaicall makinge broade his phylacteries , and enlarging his fringes , the loue of the first places at suppers , and the first chayres in the sinagoges , and salutations in the market place , and to be called of men rabbi , hath also his share , and diuide stakes , that is councel to any , and a mysterie so secretlye carried , that it is without the compasse of al humane diuination : for the happie effecting of these his designements , and to procure credit with his readers , ( for i thinke he hath litle with his hearers ) like an olde soldiear and beaten captaine he vseth many stratagems , but especially fower . the first is , to prouoke , to challenge , to dare al learned men , to the combat . for would any man in his wittes , make such an offer , were he not moste assured of victory , and to triumphe ouer the romans , that haue so often triumphed ouer others ? the second is , with great sorrowe of sowle to lament , that he can get no answere to his bookes , and vtterly to dispaire euer to see any such thinge effectually attempted : an euident demonstration , that they be of rare erudition , and truth in his side . the third is an inuection ( if we liste to beleue him of his owne , as thraso said in terence ) and that is to ouerthrowe papistry , by papistry it self , and to ruine our saith , by the principal professors and patrons of our religion . mary god blesse vs from this bell , for neuer was there such à peale runge in our dayes , or in the dayes of our forefathers . the fourth and laste is , his saint-like protestation of sincerity , vpright dealinge , and hādlinge al thinges accordinge to equitie and conscience . these be the mayne bulwarkes of his bookes , framed by this excellēt engenite , both to defend them selues , and to batter vs : al which not withstandinge , are nothinge els but skearcrowes , & painted paper walles , seeme they neuer so terrible to simple soules : spiders webbes are strong ynoughe to make bootye of flyes and gnattes , weake nettes to catch swalowes and greater birdes . and i wil not deny , that he might with some pretie credit , haue tampered amonge litle ones , who are soone scandalized , but when wich phantastical conceit he supposeth , that he can contriue the ruine of gods church , or confounde al learned catholikes whatsoeuer . sutor vltra crepidam the cobler is beyond his shoe , and he doth walke ( as the prophet saith ) in great and wonderful thinges aboue him self . his malice is great , but his power nothing corespondent . he is a curst cowe , but with short hornes : wherfore let him striue againste catholike veritie , struggle with god and church , war against heauen : repentance ( god graunt that not fruitles ) wil be the end of his labours : and perpetual disgrace , ( without diuine amendinge grace ) the iust rewarde of his vvorkes . if any ouerswaied with a false weeninge , thinke otherwise , let him haue a litle patience , voutsafe the reading of this smale treatise , and he shal see his fower forts ( by one that acknowledgeth him self inferior to thousands in gods church ) fiered about his eares : let vs breifly runne them al ouer . bel seemeth wonderful desirous of disputation in wordes , and yet in deedes refuseth the same . with an indifferend offer of trial . chap. ii. mvch ianglinge hath the minister kept since his laste reformation , & like a ffleet-streete hackster iustileth at iesuits , showldreth seminaries , braueth al the learned men of christendome ; so desirous is he to manifest his manhoode , to exercise his talent , and to shew the worlde some tricke of his cuninge . this humor of his he discouereth in his motiues : the same vauntinge vaine hunteth him in his surueye : in his huntinge of the romishe fox , though it be but a petty pamphlet , yet is he once or twice harpinge on the same stringe : and in his counterblast , with in solēt wordes & opprobrious tearmes , he dareth iesuites , and seminaries , to answere his bookes . and lastly in his late downefalle , he proclaymeth à new challenge , couragiously castinge out his daringe dartes : and in the end of his preface ; and euery seueral chapter , as though he had bene apprentice to some ballad maker , the foote of the songe runneth after this manner : answere o papistes if you can , if ye cannot so doe , then repent for shame , and yeelde vnto the truth : and at the heeles of one of them followeth this fearful , and formidable adiuration . i challenge you , i prouoke you to the combatte , i adiure you al ioyntlie , and euery one of you seuerally , for the creditt of your cause , for the honor of your pope , and the life of popish doctrine , which now lieth bleedinge , and wil shortly yeelde vp the ghost , if some soueraigne remedie be not speedely prouided for the same . the minister may take care for his winding sheete , gods church is in no daunger , the more she bleedeth out such corrupt , and pestilent humors as he is , the better is hir estate . he muste pardonvs , we relie more vpon christes promise for hir perpetual continuance , then vpon his lyinge lippe , for hir shorte yeeldinge vp the ghost . we make no dout but that he mightely enuieth her felicitie , and greedely thirsteth after hir destruction . but as litle doe we doubt , but that she shal stil liue and endure , rumpantur vt ilia codro , although he frett out his bowelles with greife and enuie . desiderium peccatorum peribit , the desier of sinners ( such as he is ) shal perishe . thus the minister braggeth & braueth others to disputation , either by worde or writinge , and like à desperate cowarde , feareth not to fight with any , prouided alwayes that they be far ynough of , and him self out of al daunger : and so he sheweth him self of as resolute a courage , as the coliar of croidon , who litle fearinge the maior of londons authoritie , out with his purse , and like a liberall gentlman , gaue him that liuerie which would better haue beseemed some body els : but yet not before he was six miles out of towne . yf he take him self for such à silogistical swashbuckler , that nothinge but present death , to approache the sphere of his disputant actiuitie , why did he neuer vouchsafe to visit wisbiche , where he might haue wonne him self imortal fame , if he could by his learninge and force of arguments , either haue transformed them from papistes to ministers ( as by special reuelation he hath chaunged him self ) or els by his potent proofes , so set them agrounde , that their fauorable auditors should haue condoled their dismolle misfortune , seing them so battered with bell bullets , and put to so disgratious confusion : was he doubtful of findinge them at home ? it cannot be , their busines lay alwayes within doores , and he might haue bene as sure of them , as though they had bene fast shut vp in a castle . was he vnwillinge to take so longe à iorney ? no iuste cause of any such suspition , when he offereth about the like busines , with a safe conduct to repare into any parte of christendome . why did he not also whett his wittes vpon master wrighte his countryman , who was longe time prisoner in the clinke , and for his learninge wel knowen to the whole realme , hauinge bin assaulted by the flower of our cleargie chiualrie : but as for this challenger , neuer could i heare that euer he durst come nere him : by which the gentle reader may gather , that the heauenly influēce of his coniuringe , worketh not any rare effect , but where none is present to entertaine him ( for there he shameth , disgraceth , and confoundeth al , be they neuer so learned , and none can be founde that dare take vp the bucklers againste him ) and that vpon the dunghille of his owne parishe , he ietteth vp and downe like à cocke of courage , vvith his bigge barbles , and threatninge cox-come , crowinge moste fearefully : marry where any occation is offered of blowes , or knockinge cheere , there he creepeth pittifully , like à poore par'd capon , with a thinne paier of gylles , that came lately from katherin cutter , or like a mungrille curr of the countrie , that with his tayle clapt betwixt his legges , and cringled backe , sneaketh away as faste as he can trudge , for feare of such a breakfaste as he list not to come at . this is the magnanimous spiritt of worthie sir thomas , or els why hath he not repaired to these places , where his longinge might haue bin satisfied : or if he desiered to manifest him self to the world , or to seeke for the common good of many , why did he not procure by that great grace & fauour which his desartes hath purchased him in court , wherof him self to his comfort , maketh mention , that he might in publike audience , haue scufled with these ignorant iesuits , and curried ouer the coates of these sillie seminaries . and be it spoken in a good hovver , if his longinge be not gone , nor his disputinge heate cooled , there is no time yet past : for not long since , an humble supplication vvas exhibited to his maiestie , vvherin vvith dutifull respect , the fauour of an indifferent disputation vvas sued for . mistris suctliffe as the bruite goeth , beinge quicker of hir fingers , and more nimble of conceiptes , got the start of hir husband , and so hath had the glorie of the first ansvvere , sir mathevv hir mate , like a kinde com●ade , hath seconded hir , and set forth an other : and so bootelesse to vvrite any more : the only course that bell for his creditt can take , is to make earnest suite , that he may haue the honor of the disputation ; novv let him speake , or for euer hould his peace . is disputation vvith him novv out of request , and his minde chaunged , as it may vvell be , seinge he hath made greater mutations then that , and had he rather shevv his valor in an indifferent conference : if so : then vvill i offer him faire playe , and that is , if he please to be the defendand of his ovvne bookes , vvith vvhich he should be best acquainted , and in all reason ought to defend , i vvil be the opponent , and take vpon me notvvithstandinge all his protestation of sinceritie , to conuince him of many coseninge trickes , sundrie notable lies , and diuers grosse corruptions , let him therefore proue his frendes , and procure that it may be obtained , vvith those equall cōdicions vvhich vvere graunted to the protestants in the presence of the french kinge . and if any intreaty vvil farther so honest a suite , vvhich to him , if his harte and pen agree together , can not but be grateful , and imbraced vvith all the povvers of his soule , then i request him of all curtesie , and for that comon good vvhich may redound to many , earnestly desire him , that he vvil straine his creditt ( if it be not at the highest and in danger of breaking ) that vve may meete in the listes and make experience quid possit vterque , vvhat either of vs offensiuely and defensiuely can performe . if he stande vpon his punctoes , and disdaigne all humble kinde of proceedinge , as nothing fittinge his braue braggarie , nor his mountinge and ouerlookinge humor , thinkinge it smale reputation to combatt with abase peticioner : then to keepe proportion to answere his vaine , and also not to giue one inche of ground in the quarrel of gods truth , for who is this vncircumcised philistian , that hath dared to rayle vpon the armye of the liuinge god ? i challenge this challenginge cowarde , dare and redare , this daringe dastard , that he wilfor the honor of his cause , the creditt of his learninge , and defence of his braginge and insolent bookes , labour effectually , that we may in manner aforesaid grapple together . yf he refuse this condicion , so reasonable , so iuste , so indifferent , no remedy but i muste come vpon him , with à lawe case of nouerint vniuersi . be it knowen to all men , that the date of his learninge is out , his great and flowinge courage daunted , and drawen drie : proclaime him cōtemptible , and banckrout , hauinge broken with his owne dependants and creditors , and expose him for a iestinge stocke to all christian people , from generation to generation world without end . amen . that bels bookes haue longe since receiued their answere , with the particuler contents of the same , and though vpon iust occasion it hath hitherto bin suppressed , yet shortly by gods grace to be set forth . chap. iii. vvheras bel hath passed hitherto vncontrolled , and vvithout ansvvere , partly for that by some of iudgmēt not any vvas thought necessary ( of such course stuffe be they made ) partly for other iuste reasons , hereafter more at lardge to be handled ; the minister maketh his comoditie thereof , and vvould haue the vvorlde to thinke , that not lack of good vvil , but vvant of skill , hath made catholikes so longe silent : and all this to alienate mens mindes from the faith of their forefathers , as a religion that cannot stande in feilde againste him , and for that cause hath bin vtterly left destitue of all defence . and albeit he had intelligence by a catholike booke ( as him self confesseth ) sett out in then'de of the yeare 1602 , that the confutation of his vvorkes vvas vndertaken , and to be published if it should be thought conuenient ( and one parricular point in the same touched , vvhich did not alitle vvringe his mastership on the vvalles , though he set agood face on the matter , and for the ease of his stomake , entertained the said booke vvith the eloquent flovvers of shameles pamphlet , sourrilous libel , and a rude lyinge hotch-pot of omnigitherum : reuelleth also at the author , him self , tearminge him in the lenity of his spiritt , swaggeringe diuine , shameles calumniator , sowle-mouthed swaggeringe diuine , impudent lyer , and brasen face ) yet by no meanes vvill he beleeue , that there vvas euer any such thinge intended indeede : iust as the false prophetts persvvaded the ievvs , that the kinge of babilon vvould not come vpon them , nor their countrye : and therfor to haue it giuen out that there is any such confutation , he reputeth it but for adeuise , to dazell ( as he saieth ) the eies of the simple readers , and of others , that shal heare thereof , that they may stil be scduced with popish legierdemaine , from time to time , and not behould the sun shininge at noonetide , who all in the end must receiue the iust rewarde of their follie , euen the slapp of a fox tayle . thus the minister is pleasant , recreateth him self and his readers with his merry conceites , but if in conclusion the confutation doe come forth , as by gods grace it shall , with that conuenient speed , which the time , and other occurrents will permitt , is he not then like those that leremie speaketh of , proued a false prophett , and doe not they that beleeue him ( as i thinke there be very few , let him prattle what he liste ) shew them selues very sillie sheepe , to follow such a bel-weather ; and that they must in the end receiue the iust rewarde of their folly , euen the blessinge of an asse tayle . agayne in the very same place , dispairinge euer to see the effect of any such attempt , he lamenteth , his distressed case , in this dolefll manner . no no my dearest they meane nothinge lesse . they wil neuer while i liue , publish any such confutation : their owne consciences condemne them , they knowe they are not able to performe it , i would most gladly ( i protest before god and the worlde ) once see any such confutation duringe my life . surelie he is much to blame to discomfort him self without all cause . he may very wel liue to see it , and yet die sooner much then he would . let him not be dismayed , for i can assure him of myne owne knowledge that our consciences doe not condemne vs , neither doe wee knowe that we are not able to performe as great a matter as that . to giue the more creditt to my wordes , and somwhat to reuiue his dead spiritts , i will here giue him a note of the nomber of the bookes , and their particular contents . they be in all fiue , written againste his motiues , and surueye fiue yeares agoe . the first booke contayneth many of his notable vntruthes , corruptions , and falsifications . the second presenteth a gallant and desperate fraye , betwixt the reformed minister of bascall , and thomas bel preacher of the worde : all the clubbes in london being not able to part them . for such a grace he hath in writinge , that he falleth into grosse contradictions , and what he saieth in one place , not feldome he vnsaieth in another . the third handleth a couple more of extra . ordinary , and choice contradictions , worthie for their dignitie , to haue a speciall place by them selues . in the first ( which hath diuers proofes ) he condemneth him self , and his owne congregation ( the defence whereof he hath vndertaken ) for the maintayners of false , hereticall , and blasphemous doctrine . a pointe worthie to be considered of by his bretheren , for he giueth them moste iuste cause , to suspect him of playinge bootye , and that his hart is still an harbourer of poperie , or at leaste not replenished with the liuely liquour of the new gospell : and though he laboureth to purge him self of that suspition , and sweareth deuoutly , yet may they come vpon him as those caterpillers did vpon s. peter vvith a loquela tua te manifestum facit , thy speech doth bewraye thee . in the second ( fortified also with diuers reasons ) he acknowledgeth our faith ( which with might and maine he would seeme to oppugne ) to be the truth , and that very religion which iesus christ god & man , brought from the bosome of his father , and planted in the worlde : so that the protestants haue againe iuste cause to complaine of him ( as balec did of balaam ) for blessinge those whom they expected he should haue cursed : and worthelie to haue him in iealousie as being fled to them with the same minde , that chusai arachites did from dauid , to the campe & seruice of absalō . the fourth entreateth of the weake groundes of his vvorkes , to vvitt , vvhat deceites he vseth in reasoninge , with exsamples , for more perspicuitie and light : what treacherous trickes also he practiseth , concerninge doctors and fathers , councells and scripture : so that the reader shal haue a perfect anatomy of the corrupt body of his bookes , with their manifolde maladies and diseases : and with all behould all his foundations and ground workes vndermined , and his fortifications blowen vp . the fifth and last , shall answere the recapitulation of his suruey or as he partlie speaketh , the perioch : in which he would shew at what time , diuers points of our religion came in . and although what hitherto hath bin written , concerneth only his first two bookes , yet will i now take the paynes , to veiw ouer those also , which came out after : as that terrible tooth-lesse bitinge beagell , called the huntinge of the romishe fox : the naturall ympe of his motiues and suruey , begotten by them in sinne and iniquitie : it resembleth the parentes so liuelie , as though it had crept out of their mouthes : his goulden ballance also , with the yoake-fellowe . the counterblast : and lastely his late downefal , and what in them i shall thinke meete accordinge to the order propounded , by rancke in his due place . yf ought els be added , for exsample a more particular reply to the challenge of his downfall , that must be counted for a worke of superarogation : what reason hath he now to feare that he shall die before he see his confusion . tender boughes and younge leaues as scripture saith , and experience teach , are a token that sommer is at hand , the particularities likewise before mētioned , as buddes shootinge forth , are a signe of more plentifull blosomes shortlie to followe , if the colde easterne winde of pouertie , doth not hinder the growinge , and keepe back the springe . my principall hope is in our good lord , that as he hath giuen me a minde to write , polishe , and set forth the worke , so he wil asiste me , not only with health and libertie , but also furnishe me with all those thinges , which for such an exploit be necessarie . yf his diuine wisedome , which reacheth from end euen to end mightely , and disposeth all thinges sweetlie shal othervvise ordanie , his name be blessed : humaine councels , must with al obedience yeald to heauenly prouidēce : only i would haue the curteous reader to vnderstande , and bell to knowe , that there shall be no fault in me , for performinge of what soeuer is promised , more then which , neither can i in reason assure , nor any with equitie euer expect . that papistes doe not oppugue papistes as bel vainely vaunteth : with the discouery of a double slight , which concerninge this point he practiseth . chap. iiii. the principall thinge wherein bel would be thought to out runne his fellowe ministers ( if any he hath ) and to vvin the bel from them al , is a certaine singular gift , and superexcellent dexteritie , of confoundinge our religion , by the professors of our faith , and setting one papist together by the eares with an other . this new inuention of his in the epistle dedicatorie of his motiues , dedicated to the right honorable lords of the councell , him self calleth a rare methodical discourse , such is the rare humilitie of the reformed order , and the memorie therof is so gratefull , that he is often twanglinge vpon this stringe . to omitt other places in his late downfal ( though long since a fowle downefall brake the neck of his soule ) he obserueth , that popish religion hath alwayes beene condemned of great learned papistes , that liued in the popes church . and in another place his margent telleth vs , that the papistes graunt as much as they desier : which i would willingly confesse to be true , were not he in sayinge so a notable liar . how then cometh it to passe , will some say , that vsually he alleadgeth catholike authors againste chatholicke doctrine ? the question is quicklie answered ; it is not their default , but his fraude , not his great learning , but litle conscience that is the cause thereof . the scriptures are daylie for diuers mad purposes vvrested and wroung , cleane a gainst the heate , and cōtrarie to their true sence & meaninge , as all knowe , and yet no blame to be laid vpon the sacred text , but vpon those crooked apostles that depraue them , to their owne and others perdition . yf the word of god may be peruerted , mens writinge haue no such priueledge , but that they may meete with false fingers , such as bels bee ; and therfore i giue him to vnderstand that he abuseth gods church , deceiueth his ignorant reader , and iniureth catholike authors , whē he would make the vvorld beleeue , that our owne docters doe wounde our religion : they are cleere from the crime obiected : al the suspition which is grovven , taketh roote from his malice , and not from any desert of theirs , they carry not tvvo faces vnder one hoode , nor blovve hoate and colde out of one mouth ( as some doe euery way as honest as thomas bel , and yet bad inoughe ) as i intende more breiflie to let the reader to vnderstand . tvvo slightes he vseth to dazell the eies of vnlearned men , persvvading them that the spirituall souldiars of the catholike church , haue turned their vveapons to their mutual destruction . the first & that moste grosse , shamefull , and common , is , to falsifie , or by one vvay or other to depraue such sentences as he produceth : for proofe vvhereof , i referr the reader for a litle triall to the next chapter , vvhere he shall finde some fevv exsamples : more choise of such vvares , he shall finde at the next mart , vvhere his foule fardle shal be laid open to the veivv of all . the second is , whereas catholike vvriters haue diuersitie of opinions , vvith vnitie of religion , dissenting in smale matters , as namely those , vvhich vvee cal schoole-questiōs , but neuer disagreeing in any artickle of faith , no one euer formally opposinge him self , against any thinge defined in generall councell , for no such president can he bringe forth , yet he maketh his tounge to vvalke , and vvould haue the vvorld to thinke , that one papist doth massacre another , and that vve had varietie in artickles of faith ( as though the lunasie of the protestants had infected vs : ) plentifull exsamples hereof vve haue in his booke of motiues , i vvill breifly cite one : many papistes ( quoth he ) as aquinas richardus &c. doe hould , that a simple preist , by vertu of the popes dispensation , may lawfully and effectualy , minister their sacrament of confirmation . we vvillingly graunt it , as being the moste receiued and common opinion : vvhat of all this ? but this opinion ( saith he ) is stoutly impugned by other great papistes , to witt , bonauentura , alphonsus , durandus , scotus maior , &c. be it so , what then ? such dissention as this , is without any violation of faith at all . o ( saith he ) what gteater and more important dissention can be then this ? for confirmation is a sacrament with the papists . if he knewe not , and be content to learne i wil teach him . a far greater dissention it were , euen in this verie point of confirmation , if some hould it to be à sacrament , and others did denie it : the disagreemēt was of the extraordinary minister of the sacrament ( which is no such important matter as he would inforce ) of the sacrament it self they made no question . doe not we knowe that the protestants them selues allowe , and prescribe the signe of the crosse in baptisme , and that the puritanes detest it : that they in necessitie permitt lay people to baptise , and these thinke it such a prophanation of that sacred misterie , that they had rather suffer infants to die without baptisme ( so great a zeale they haue to pack them to hell warde ) should i come vpon him for this varitie , and crie out after this manner : what greater and more important dissention can be then this , for baptisme is a sacrament with them : would he not condemne me for a notable wrangler , seinge they contend not whether baptisme be a sacrament or no , but obout other questions , to vvitt of a certaine ceremonie , and the extraordinary minister , which they make no great account of . let him then queitly take him self by the sleeue , and see whether the measure will not serue ( and much better ) to make for his ministershipp a liuery of the same cloath . were the dissentions in the protestants congregation , of no more fundamentall points then ours bee , it should not daily be shaken with such terrible earthquakes , and to the great disgrace of a new timbered gospell , for lack of good worke manshipp , be in daunger of fallinge : but alas they are continually brawling like beggars , and lie lugginge together by the eares , about the verie sinnowes and soule of their religion , in endles quarrells and contentions . luther and zwinglins are proclaimed by m. iewell , that patriarchal challenger , for moste excellent men sent of god to giue light to the world . and yet did luther defend till death , the true , reall , and substātiall presence of christes bodie in the sacrament , giueinge his black blessinge to all those that taught otherwise . zwinglius for all that , hauinge the spiritt no lesse then luther , vtterly denied the reall presence , contemninge his curse , and disdayninge to followe the light of his lanterne : such svveete agreement there vvas betvvixt these tvvo moste excellent men sent of god . can bell deny this to be true , or that this point of religion is materiall , as vpon vvhich dependeth saluation or damnation : i knovve him to be a braue minded man , and one that dare venture as far for the credit of the gospell as an other : yet i suppose he vvill neuer stand vpon any tearmes , but queitly admitt both the one and the other for knovven truthes : and then must i be so boulde as to demaunde , hovv he can defend one of these heauenly prophetes , from being an heretike and damnable doctor ; and so vvith the candle of false doctrine , to haue shevven his follovvers the vvay to euerlastinge darknes . the minister is quick sighted to behould a mote in our eie , but he cannot see a beame in his ovvne . may vve not iustly say to him vvith our sauiour , hipocrite cast out first the beame out of thine owne eie , and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote of thy brothers eie . to leaue germanie and speake of the professors of our owne contrie : doe not the protestants thinke the dignitie , & superiority of bishopps and archbishopps agreable to gods vvord : and yet doe the puritanes in the name of the lorde ( by their champion martin mar-prelat and his mutinous make bates , that band vnder his colors ) crie out ( as thomas rogers saith , and it is no councell to any ) that their callinge is vnlawfull , that they be ministers of antechrist , worse then friars and monkes , deuiles bishoppes , and diuelles incarnate . netheir as i suppose will he say that this is a triflinge question , for feare of scandalizinge litle ones . aerius of vvhom vve spake before , vvas condemned of heresie for equallinge preistes vvith bishopps . could bell haue the luck to finger an ouerseer ship ( to vse his ovvne phrase , that he may the better knovve my meaninge ) then vvere the matter cock sure , and a flatt heresie indeede to mainteine any such assertion : mary till then great vvisdome to proceede vvith deliberation , to runne vvith the hare , & hould vvith the hounde : flatter on the one side , and faune on the other . can he not reade ridles , dauns est non oedipus . by the next post he shall knowe more of my meaninge , in the meane time let him feede in his hart vpon this by faith and be thankfull . bel pretendeth great sinceritye like à true apostle , and yet like à false apostata vseth it not , with some few exsamples of his malitious and corrupt manner of proceedinge , chap. v. vvhere deceipt is intēded , there the protestacion of sincerity , vpright dealinge , and a tender conscience , as a necessary preparation must be pretended . for this is the goulden baite to angle ignorant soules , and the cōmon cloake of coseninge companions . iuglers tuck vp their sleeues , open their handes , and make shew of the plainest dealinge in the worlde : false prophetts put on sheepes cloathinge , and the deuill transformeth him self into an angell of light . iesabell proclaimed afast , when she sought the blood of innocent naboth , and the aposte assureth vs , that certaine false teachers and belly gods did by sweete speeches and benedictions , seduce the hartes of innocents . bell as though he were made of no other elements then sincere dealinge , and had not so much as the skill to foist in a lie , or to mangle and mayme a sentence , speaketh often of conscience , and honest proceedinge , and of his owne free motion and liberality , entereth into a bande of subscribinge , and forfaiture of his creditt , if he can be conuinced of the conrrarie . in the epistle of his downefall to all englishe iesuites , seminary preistes , &c. thus he writeth . in my firste booke published in the yeare . 1593. i premised to yeelde if you could conuince me , either to haue alleadged any writer corruptly , or to haue quoted any place guylefullie , or to haue charged any author falesly . yea and in the same place he addeth , thath he will neuer require creditt at the readers hand , ether in that booke or any other to be published hereafter , if any such thinge can be proued against him . vpon this foundation dependeth all the reputation of his workes , and that litle creditt which he hath gotten with his simple followers : for if he be such a sincere writer , as he protesteth , and so consideratiue and respectiue in the peninge of his bookes , that no suspicion of misreportinge , or corruption , can be iustlie fastned vpon him , then doth it euidently followe , that we haue greate dissentions , in matters of faith , and that our doctors , be the bane of catholicke doctrine , and then no marueil if he make challenge vpon challenge , and remayne vnanswered , when as not only our enimies , but also those that we take for our frendes , and relye vpon , stande in open feilde againste vs , and haue as it were sworne our destruction . but if on the contrary plaine euidence shall conuince , that he maketh no scruple of lyinge , no conscience of falsification , is not his hopocritical sanctitie double iniquitie , and bel proued the sonne of belial , and is not the maine piller that beareth vp al his braue buildinge , and glorious turretts ouerthrowen , and him self with his applaudinge mates , in the midest of their pastime , crushed , and stroken dead as the insultinge philistians were by the seruant of god sampson ? whether this be so or no remayneth now breifly to be handled : to iustifie mine accusation , i will runn ouer afew passages of his late challenge , because that is of latest date , and therfore of al likelyhoode moste grateful to the reader : of whom i desier not any extraordinarie fauour , but that which none can denie to be indifferent and reasonable : and that is , as vpon my bare wordes i would not haue him to discredit bel , and beleeue me , for that sauoured , either of partialitie , or of indiscreet kinde of proceedinge : so nether vpon his affirmation , to condemne vs , and to commend him , for that were also opposite to all equitie : but as they haue longe lent the plantife one eare , so now a litle to afforde the defendant the other ; and seriouslie to to examine our depositions , and take some panies to trie the truth of our relations , and then a gods name let them thinke as the very force of proofes and allegations shal induce them , and freely speake what they thinke : and so haue a crashe at his challenginge downefall . i. pag. 40. thus he cometh ouer the pope . antonius ( quoth he ) a man of no smale creditt ( for he was an archbishop of the popish stampe , and by the pope reported for a saint ) hath these wordes . reperiturtamen martinus quintus dispensasse cum quodam qui contraxerat & consummauerit matrimonium cum quadam eius germana . neuerthelet it is knowen that pope martin the fift , did dispence with one who had contracted , and consummated matrimonie , with his owne natural and fulsister , of the same father , and same mother , fot so much the word ( germana , doth import . behould here gentle reader , the excellency of holy poperie , and if thou desierest more of such melodie , thou maiest finde it in my booke of motiues , but this is here a sufficient antepast for all our english iesuites , and iesuited popelinges . none are so ignorant but they knowe that only god can giue licence , to marrie a mans owne natural sister . this place he bringeth to proue ( as his wordes goinge before import , and these now cited insinuate as much ) that te pope taketh vpon him that power , which is proper to god alone : and the matter as he handleth it seemeth so odious , that some no question condemne vs highlie vpon his reporte , and my self was since the cominge forth of his booke , assaulted with this very question , so markeable it is in eueri mans eie . but as it is nothinge preiudicial to the catholike faith , were it true , so beinge moste false , it cannot but launce the ministers reputation , and goare the very intralles of his best creditt . first therfor i say that it is nothinge preiudicial to the catholike faith were it true : for we defend not al the particular factes of any , though popes : we knowe that they may erre , either by wronge informacion , yea or of wilful malice . their vniust actions ( for which they must render account to god ) hurte them selues , and their owne soules , catholike religion no reason it is they should hurt though weaklinges may be scandalized . glorious s. augustin hauing reckned vp al the bishopps of rome , from s. peter to anastatius , thereby to cōfounde the donatist heretikes , because as he saith . in this order of succession , there is none founde a donatist bishop , straight wayes to stop the mouthes of any , that leapinge from faith to manners , might truly or falselie haue obiected the bad life or fact of some pope , he addeth these wordes for a salue : if in these times any traitor should haue crept into that order of bishopps , which is deriued from peter him selfe euen to anastasius , who now sitteth in the same chaire , it should haue bin no preiudice to the church , and innocent christians , for whom our lord prouiding said whatsoeuer they shal say doe yee , but doe not those thinges which theye doe , for they say , and doe not . a certaine prelats daughter in this realme , and wel affected to the worde , by the countenance and assistance of hir father , turnd of hir olde husbād a grasing , and betooke hir selfe to à new , is bel content that this detestable fact should disgrace their religion , or that vpon this we infer , that superintendent to haue taken vpon him the power proper to god alone , or rather more ( seing god cannot geue leaue to a woman to haue two husbandes , neither can any such president be showen , but of brothers that married their sisters we haue in adams children ) yf not : because he may truly say , that such exorbitant actions proceede not infallibly or vsually , from any such luciferian conceit , but rather from passion or malice , which , doe not seldome , peruert the iudgment of men in authoritie , and make them runn headlonge in to grosse errors : then might he very wel haue spared his winde , and odious declamation against martin the fifth . i would not here wishe him to come to fiercely vpon me , for that i touch the matter so lightlie , and threaten me the bastinado , for standeringe an ouerseear of the gospel , for if he be so liuely and pert , let him not thinke , but that i wil stand vpon my lawful defence , and be readie to entertaine him , with stafford law , and by s. chad , that good bishopp of lincolne , i hope to make my partie good . secondly i tell him , that his lippes haue lashed out to lustilie , and that he hath wickedly slaundred pope martin , and moste perfidiously corrupted antonius . the very title of the chapter might haue taught him , that he was in error : or at least haue giuen him a greater caueat better to consider the matter , for it is de affinitate : of affinitie : and therfore had the pope giuen one licence to marry his owne natural sister ; he had dispensed in consanguinitie , and so nothinge fittinge the matter intreated of in that chapter . but what doe i speake of error : when as monstrons malice , and extremitie of hatred againste the church , and sea apostolicke , made him set a broach this shameles vntruth , for otherwise he would neuer haue smothered the wordes followinge , the witnesses of his false doctrine ; nor euer haue giuen a false glose and translation , to those which he doth cite . the truth is this : martin the fifth dispensed not with one , to marry his owne naturall and full sister , of the same father , and the same mother ( as belle ambleth in amplification , and troteth alyinge pace with out all moderation ) but only to continue still with hir with whome he had married , and with whom he had consummat matrimony , notwithstandinge he had before his mariage committed fornication with hir naturall sister : so that s. anthonius speaketh not any one worde of the mans owne naturall sister , but of his wife , and hir naturall sister . for proofe and perspicuitiee of this point , let vs alleadge the docters whole sentence . it is founde ( saith he ) that pope martin the fifth did dispense with à certaine man who had contracted and consummated matrimony with a certaine naturall ssster of hir , with whom he had comitted fornication ; yet with great difficulty , and because the matter was secret , and the man not fit for religion , or to remoue into any other contrie , and so scandal would haue followed of the diuorce if it had beene made . let any that is desierous of truth , by this one place , take a scantlinge of bells holie sinceritie . because he found s. antonius to speake of a dispensation granted to one after he had married , and consummate matrimony with hir , whose sister before his marriage he had knowen carnallie : and so a dispensation only in affinitie , contracted by vnlawfull copulation : ( for which the minister had he bin consulted would rather haue laughed at him for his simple scrupulositie , then thought it needfull to sue for any such fauour or grace ) which did nothinge fitt his purpose ; and therfore meaninge to make it in spight of all honestie to serue his turne , he hath firste corrupted the sentence by false translation , sainge with his natural sister , in steede of these wordes with hir naturall sister , or the naturall sister of hir : and although euery one can not espie his cunninge conuayance , because he suppressed the other parte of the sentente followinge , yet is it apparant ynoughe to any gramarian : for were the latin as he turneth it , then should it not be , cum quadam eius germana , but , cum quadam sua germana : but not only such as knowe latin , but euen those also that haue any skill in pewter , might haue espied the grosse vntruth , had he cited the whole sentence as it is in antonius before alloadged : and therefore to healpe out a lye , he ventured vpon corruption , and chopt away all those wordes which might haue marred the market of this geneua marchant . for had one married his owne naturall sister , as bell not so confidently as impudently affirmeth : then should it not haue bin truly said , that he had committed fornication , but incest , a sinne distinct in nature , and far more odious in the sight of god : nether could the matter haue bin secret as antonius saith it was , nor yet the seperation scandalous , but rather offensiue to haue suffered them to continue together in filthie pretensed matrimony . to conclude therfore he had not dispensation in respect of his owne naturall sister , but to remaine still in matrimony with that woman , whose naturall sister he had before mariage carnally knowen . hauinge tolde so notorious a lie , and holpen it out with foule falsification , he could not containe him selfe but crie out in the seale of his soule behoulde here gentle reader the excellencie of holie poperie , and if thou desierest more of such melodie , thou mayest finde it in my booke of mottues . but may not i with far more reason desier him to note the basenes of his ministerial iniquitie , that after such à shamefull prancke of lyinge and falsification , setteth such a braue face on the matter as though he were innocent and no way to be touched : and as for the melodie he speaketh of , to giue him his iust deserts i cannot deny but that not only his motiues , but also his other bookes , be full of such harmonie , lyinge , and corruption , being the ordinary musick which this fidling minister scrapeth to those that daunce after his pipe . and wheras he calleth this a sufficient antipast for all english iesuites and iesuited popelinges ( such is the modestie of this refined ropelinge ) we willinglie graunt it , to be verie sufficient for all catholikes , and his deuoted dependants : for vs , to take him for a whetstoue docter , and pollinge preacher : for them to discarde him , as being the shame , disgrace , and confusion of the new gospell , and a corrupt member of their congregation . ii. pag. 50. s. austen ( quoth he ) proueth at lardge in sundrie places of his workes that voluntarie motions of concupiscence are sinne indeede , and trulie so called : in his first booke of retractations he hath these wordes . that which in infantes is called originall sinne , when as yet they vse not free arbitrement of wil , is not absurdly called voluntarie , because beings contracted of the euil wil of the firste man , it is become in sorte hereditarie : it is not therefore false which i said , sinne is an euil so voluntarie , that it is no way sinne , if it be not voluntary . whether bell fathereth not a notable vntruth vpon s. austen , when he citeth these wordes of his to proue that voluntarie motions of concupiscence be sinne indeede , and truly so called , i reporte me to the wordes by him alleadged : for no such thinge is in them to be found , nay either my braines are not in good tune , or els s. austen proueth the cleane contrarie . it is a constant doctrine with that holie father ; that sinne is voluntarie otherwise no sinne , and for as much as some dout might be made of originall sinne , because it seemeth wholy inuoluntarie ; he affirmeth also that sinne to be voluntarie and so concludeth generally all sinne to be so : marry a man of the ministers learninge , may quicklie ouerthrowe vs with our owne doctors , if by that rare skill which he hath in lyinge , when they say one thinge , he can without all blushinge maintayne them to say the contrarie . let the reader peruse the sentence and speake his minde freelie . iii. pag. 69. disputinge againste the condigne meritts of workes he citeth this sentence of a catholicke writer iosephus angles . eodem etiam modo , &c. as other holie doctors also consideringe after the same maner the natural valew only of good woorkes , and perceiuinge that it is exceedinge far distant , from the valew and iust estimation of eternal life , said wisely : that our workes are not meritorious nor worthie of eternall life , yet for the couenant and promise made vnto vs , the good workes of man , with the helpe of grace , are worthy of eternal life , and equall with it , which for all that , that promise of god which is frequent in scripture , set aside , were altogether vnworthie of so great a rewarde . in theese wordes although nothinge be contained hurtfull to catholike doctrine : yet bell by his achymistical arte of chaunginge truth in to falsehoode , can gather out matter sufficient against vs. but before i passe any farther , i muste note one thinge breiflie , and that is , whereas ioseph is dedicatinge his bookes to the pope , speaketh of kissinge his holines feete , this minister not only out of all season mencioneth it in this place , but is at it againe and againe , as some wise folke there be , which if they get a worde by the end , will hardlie let it goe , but like a bell still iangle the same tune . doth not him selfe confesse that iustinian the emperour nine hundred yeeres agoe kissed the pope constantiue feete : and is it not well knowen , that alexander the great , fell downe at the feete of laddas high preiste of the iewes : and s. austen reporteth how the people in his time did the like before the feete of bishopps . all which considered ( to omitt what adoration is giuen to temporall princes ) i maruell that it should seeme so straung a thinge to one of bells readinge and learninge , that a religious bishop should submit him selfe to kisse the popes feete : ynoughe of this : let vs now see what he gathereth out of iosephus wordes against vs. in the margent of his booke this wholesome note is painted . loe this frier graunteth that all the holie fathers are against the papistes . it should haue bene long ynoughe before a man of ordinarie capacitie , could euer haue obserued any such point in iosephus discourse . but take heede whilst yee liue , when such a turn-coate as he is cometh to tosse and turne ouer a sentence : for he can not only inferr , that which is true , but with as great facilitie gather that also which is false : be it knowen to him , that he belieth iosephus , for no such thinge as he noteth can be wroung , racked , or coniured out of his wordes : let them be viewed and pondered by the discreete reader , and i leaue it to his iudgment whether he graunteth any such thinge , or no. the fathers saith bell , out of the testimonie of iosephus confesse that good workes accordinge to their naturall valew , be not meritorious of eternall life . what is this against vs ? doe not all catholikes graunt as much , when they acknowledge that they receiue all their efficacie of workinge from gods grace : which doctrine of ours he may learne out of the councell of trent , where it is handled at lardge : false therfore it is that ether the fathers be against vs , or that angles granteth any such thinge . iiii. pag. 115. our petye pygmie will needes be wrastlinge with hercules club ; that is , bell bicker with bellarmine , impar congressus achilli ; the poore man might doe far better and vviser , to keepe his teeth to be agents for his bellie vvhich he loueth vvell , then to endanger them vpon so roughe a file . and vvhat a gods name is his quarell againste that learned prelate . marry ( quoth he ) these are his expresse wordes : but in the new testament because christ had fulfilled the figures and the prophecies , althoug he many doe not vnder stād the sentences of the scriptures , yet doe they vnderstand the mysteries of our redemption , euen the common countrie fellowes and the verie women . thus writeth our iesuit , affirming that euen women and the verie rustickes of the countrie , doe vnderstand the scriptures , so far forth as pertaineth to the misteries of their redemption . yf the minister doe no better keepe his handes from pickinge and stealinge , then he doth his tounge from euill speakinge , lyinge , and slaundringe , to vse the phrase of their cathechisme , he might far more justly be called in question , for the vnlavvfull vse of his fingers , then he did the seruinge man at thirske about suspition of seminary affaires : for i giue him to vnderstand ( though no great nevves ) that he belieth bellarmin : he saith not that vvoemen and rustickes doe vnderstand the scriptures so far forth as pertaineth to the misteries of their redemption . nay he saith the contrarie in the vvordes by him alleadged , although many ( quoth he ) vnderstand not the sentences of the scriptures . in vvhich number , i thinke rustickes and vvomen must be contayned . yf then they vnderstand not the sentences of the scriptures as bellarmin affirmeth hovv doe they vnderstand the scriptures so far forth as pertaineth to the misteries of their redemption . was there euer knovven a more gallant gospeller , that dareth thus to practise his godles occupation though all the tovvne looke on . yea but bellarmin saith that contrie fellovves and vvomen vnderstand , the misteries of our redemption : vvhat then ? is there no meanes to attaine that knovvledg , but but by readinge and vnderstandinge of the scriptures ? yf so , vvoe be to them that can not reade at all , no smale part of the christian vvorld . vvho knovveth not that ignorant people learne better the misteries of their redemption , by the instruction of their pastors , dilligence of parents , and helpe of good cathechismes , then by fishinge for it by their ovvne labour , out of the profound sea of sacred scripture , vvhere they may sooner for lack of skill be drovvned in the depth of errors , then by them selues finde out the liuely vvaters of true doctrine ; vvould to god to much experience in these vnrulie times , taught vs not this to be too true a lesson , the lamentable storie of hacket that quintissentiall puritan and a great bible beater , may vvarne all to be wise vnto sobrietie as . s. paul vvisheth ; and also vvhat ruine of soules , and daunger to common vveales , doth arise , by generally sufferinge , yea and animatinge all sortes of people , tag and rag to learne the misteries of their redemption out of the scripture , and to examin the doctrin forsooth of fathers , & councells , by that rule & touchstone , as iohn caluin prescribeth . v. pag. 130. many papistes ( quoth he ) are so blinded and besotted with vnsauorie traditions , and superstitious illusions , that they deeme it a greater sinne to eate fleash in lent , then to commit adulterie , murder , or periurie . seinge moste certaine it is that these fowle sinnes of adulterie , murder , and periurie , be forbidden by the law of god , no necessitie occurringe or circumstance what soeuer , giueinge any leaue to commit any one of these sinnes : and that the fast of lent ordained only by a positiue law of the apostles , from which many for age , sicknes , and other causes , may be iustly excused ; and this so well knowen , that no dout can be made thereof , what a creature is bell , that vttereth so notable an vntruth , bringinge not so much as any colourable ground to support it , but his bare word , and the emptie blast of his owne mouth . should i tell him that certaine reformed protestants , otherwise called willet ) vnder the letters of e. o. gaue him but a litle item by the way , notinge a certaine palpable contradiction in his surueye : to wit that he saith in one place , that the bishops of rome , vntil the dayes of s. austen , and long after , were very godlie men , and taught the same doctrine that s. peter had done before them , and yet in an other place mainteineth , that pope siricius was seduced by sathan , published wicked doctrine , and taught the flat doctrine of the diuells : and pope sozimus falsified the decrees of the nicen councel : so to mainteine the vsurped primacie of the church of rome . seing both these popes liued in s. augustins time . to deliuer him selfe from this disgracious shakell which much hindereth his goinge , he fetcheth many crosse capers , tumbleth like a pig in a poke , but he is so hampered , that the more he strugleth the more fast is he caught , the holes are so straight and him selfe so big that there is is no creepinge out , well may he thruste his head forth , as his brother eaton the minister by hounslowe , did vpon the pillerie in london , for teachinge his daughter a wrong lesson , but no possibility of escapinge appeereth . many soueraigne solucions forsooth , and diuers plaisters of i-sayes , are applied to cure the wounde , but all in vaine , for it festereth more and more , without all hope of amendment . bad tinkers stop one heale , ad make an other . bell is so cuninge a worke man , that he hath both left the olde leakinge stil , and made diuers new . i touch this point now breiflie , better oportunitie hereafter will be offered further to examin this matter , when god willinge all his bucklers of defence , shall be beaten vpon his owne face . at this present i will giue the reader a short viewe , of the great dexteritie he hath in answeringe ; and the wonderfull facilitie in lyinge and the great pleasure he seemeth to take in that occupation , insistinge so much vpon that , and amplifienge it at lardg , as if he had either conscience in his soule or blood in his cheekes , he would neuer for shame once haue mentioned . i will cite all his wordes at full , that no iust cause of complaint be giuen : in his third chapter the title wherof is . of the notorious lies of e. o. thus he declaimeth . pope siricius ( as thomas bell affirmeth ) was seduced by sathan , published wicked doctrine , and precisians , came daylie to a winter morning lecture , where after other preparatiue discourses , when the mot was giuen by the preacher , and the text of multiplicamini proclaimed , candles were put out , and that they frequented this exercise , fare more dilligently then they obserued the lenten fast : and brought nothinge to iustifie my relation , how would he take me vp for halting . yea i am verily perswaded , that albeit , i should say that such a thinge hapned in a principall towne in barkshire , addinge also that the minister vpon the breakinge forth of the matter fearinge persecution for the testimonie of a good conscience , fled a way towardes oxford , and venturinge with his horse to take the water , because he had haste in his way , and could not expect a boate , was there drowned , that he would not make any great scruple notwithstandinge these particularities to giue me the lie . let him then with far more reason quietly disgest it him selfe . his odious tearmes of blinded , and besotted , vnsauorie traditions , and superstitious illusions , must be pardoned : some haue such a defect of nature , that they can not speake vnles thy stammer : and sir thomas such an imperfection of grace , that except he rayle and lie he can write nothinge . s. hierom calleth the lenton fast a tradition of the apostles . though it pleaseth him to call it an vnsauorie tradition so litle doth it like him , and to say truth , the old tradition commandinge so longe abstinence from fleashe , can not but be to the ministers mouth sower and vnsauorie : and the new geneua fashion that geueth leaue by the libertie of the gospell to eate fleash at all times , is far more sauorie , tothsome , and pleasant . vi. thus much out of the downe fall : now for a packinge blowe one bout more and so an end . in this booke of his which he published the last yeare 1603 ( and coupled it together with his goulden ballance ) the good man seemeth to be much netled , and the waters of his patience so troubled , and shaken , that they be not yet queit and cleere : for a certaine catholike author ( in a booke intituled a detection &c. written against master sutcliff , and master taught the flat doctrine of the diuel : these are the expresse wordes of e. o. whom ( as it seemeth ) the diuel did euen then posesse when he vitered them . for not one of these wordes ( tavgt the flat doctrine of the divel ) can be found in my suruey , in the place which e. o. hath quoted , but these wordes which of purpose he did omitt ( prohibited mariage as an vnlawful thinge ) this therefor is a notorius , and a most malicious lie , it is a lye in grame , and that a knocker ( to vse his owne wordes else where ) adorned with the name of the diuell , to giue the more grace vnto it ; and that worthelie , because the diuel is the architect and thiefe worckman in that art and occupation . here is a greueous complaint put vp against e. o. for that he hath slaundred the minister , and vttered a notorious and moste malicious lie , a lie in graine and a knocker , adorned with the name of the diuell , &c. and the lye consisteth in this point , because e. o. chardgeth bell as though he should say that siricius taught the flatt doctrine of the diuele , none of which wordes as he affirmeth can be found in his surueye in the place which e. o. hath quoted : and this inturie he reputeth for a fault of no smale qualitie when he writeth that the deuile as it seemeth did euen then posesse him when he vttered them . a greuous crime doutles , that in his seeminge opinion deserued so suddaine and seuere a punishment , or els he presumeth much vpon the diueles friendship , when he is readie to conceiue that for a trifelinge iniurie offered to his ministership he tooke the matter so hotely , as to prosecute it in such terrible reuenging maner . but now nothwithstandinge all this bitter and fearfull exclamation , what if these wordes be found in his surueye and in that verie place which e. o. hath noted vpon whom them doth the notorious and malicious lye fall , whose coate is died and marked with the lye in graine , whose credit doth the knockinge lye batter and beate , and whose tenement moste like to giue the diuele intertainment ? that the said siricius was seduced by sathan , and published wicked doctrine he denieth not : why i beseech him is there any such great difference betwixt these wordes which he graunteth and those other which he doth not graunt , that he should mount vp into such extrauagant tearmes , let them be indifferently pondered , and they expresse the verie same meaninge● for is it not trulie verified of him that he doth teach the flatt doctrine of the diuele , of whom it is confessed that , he was seduced by sathan and published wicked doctrine . put them into an equall ballance , and a dram of difference in sence and true construction , wil not be found , for bell is no nere allied to the rineged minister of baschall then sathan is to the diuile . these are vaine shiftes , idle vagaries , & a cuninge wheelinge from the matter , cries out sir thomas : to the point , shew the foresaid wordes , or els e. o. remaineth cōuicted of notorious lyinge , and i in the back house ditch for takinge his parte : seeing he is so short and so cutted , to take away all cauilles , and to chamber the clapper of his runinge red rag . i tell him that for the wordes wherewith bell is chardged , two places of his surueye are quoted : to witt pag. 228. and 230. and in the first quotation of 228. be those wordes found which he admitteth , and in the next of 230. is that sentence registred which he denieth vtterlie euer to haue spoken . for reuellinge at siricius for callinge , not holie wedlocke as he saith ( he must take an heare from his beard which had he done so often as he hath ouerreached , he had bin a balde minister longe since ) but the filthie yoakinge and pretensed mariage of preistes the pollution of carnall concupiscence : he exclameth against him in this manner . i add hereunto that this is the flatt doctrine of the diuele , and s. paul is my verie witnes herein . i report me now to his deuoted dependants whether his witts were at home , when he medled , with such hot and dangerous edge tooles , as haue pitifully hurt and scaled his owne fingers , or what discretion , shame , or modestie he had , to pursue his aduersarie with so full mouth and strong a crie of wordes in vvhich the diuele also had his part : so vainlie to vaunt of his sincere proceedinge , so desperatly to deny any of these vvordes taught the flatt doctrine of the diuele , to be in the place quoted : and confidently to chardge his aduerfarie vvith a notorious lye : vvhen he had more reason to haue commanded his tounge silence seeing it hath found out his ovvne confusion , neuer to haue preached of sinceritie , vvhen he plaide the cunny catchinge companion : nor euer to haue called an other in question for lyinge , him selfe in that very place not only venturinge vpon an vntruth , but also in that verie same thinge , which as a notorious lye he obiecteth to an other . as for s. paul where he vvould haue his vvitnes , he may talke is pleasure and say vvhat he list , but he may sooner spend all his pensions in sub-penas , then euer bringe that blessed apostle to depose in his side for the lawfull mariage of vowed preistes and religious persons . the testimonie of their owne corrupt conscience yea and of their cōcupiscence they may haue : the authoritie of any apostle , or authenticall auncient writer , they are neuer able to produce . and thus much breiflie for a sample cutt of as it were from the mayne webbe intended . no difficultie had it beene to haue ranged more plentifully , after the same maner both in these and other his bookes . but my purpose was only at this time to giue a tast not to furnishe a formall bankett : these few passages , shall i hope for this present giue the gentle reader desierous of truth , sufficient content : being as it were the two messengers chusy and achimaas to bring newes of the ouerthrowe of this glorious absalon , who hath as shamefully apostared from his vocation , and waged war against his mother the church , as euer did that graceles impe reuolte from his naturall alleigaunce , and tooke armes against his father the kinge : the mayne battayle heauenlie grace asistinge me shall with conuenient speede followe after . god that willeth not the death of a sinner , put into the hartes of all such protestaunts as loue truth and detest falshoode : desier saluation with christ and his sanites , and tremble at eternall damnation with . the diuele and his angelles , carefully to seeke for the knowledg of the pure , auncient , and aposto like faith , zealously when it is found to keepe and imbrace it , and constantly to liue and dye in the profession of the same . b. c. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a15697-e140 faire and soft for dashing : what will this man be in the fight , that is so hot and eager before he is yet entred the f●elde . s. epiphanius haeres . 75. and s. austen haeres . 53. se s hierō . contra vigilantium . ciril . 6. cōtra iulian . cedrenus in heraclio . s. alcoranus mahumet . cap. 15. & 16. matt. ●3 . v. s enuche . psalm . 130. v. 2. in the preface speciall , and pag. 35. and 36. to the seminary . preists in vvisbich castle , &c. pag. 57. and 65. pag. 80. psalm . 111. v. 9. in the speciall preface of his motiues . in the epistles dedicatory of his motiues and suruey . 2. reg. 15. v. 16. in his counterblast pag. 45. pag 44. pag. 49. ierem. 37. v. 18. pag. 45. pag. 45. in his suruey to the christiā reader . mat. 26 v. 73. num. 25. 2. reg. 15. v. 34. e● cap 17. v. 15. mat. 24 v. 32. sap. 8. v. 1. pag. 18. pag. 7 ● . chap. 8 artic . 12. in the former place . in his apologie of the church of englands . mat. 7. v. s. in his sermon printed by iohn windet 1590. pag. 13. suruey pag. 516. goulden ballance pag. 31. mat. 7. v 15. 2. cor. 11. v. 14. 3. reg. ●1 . v. 9. rō . 16. v. 18. motiues . 18. iudg. 16. v. 30. 3. part. tit . 1. cap. 11 prop● finem . epist. 165. ad generosum . mat. 23. v. 3. 3. part . tit . 1. cap. 11. ss . 1. aug. lib. 1. retract . cap. 13. pag. 13. aug. retract . lib. 1. cap. 15. pag. 16. in 2 lib. sent. pag. 130. loe the frier granteth that al the holi● fathers are a gainst the papists . suruey pag. 487. genebrardus in chrō . anni christi 32. de verbis apostoli sermo 18. de verbo dei lib. 3. cap. 2. tom . 1. rom. 12. v. 5. suruey pag. 193. suruey pag. 228. & 230. suruey pag. 488. epist. ad marcellum adversus mont●num . but they are found . 1. reg. ●8 . a brief account of the first rise of the name protestant and what protestantism is ... / by a professed enemy to persecution. bold, s. (samuel), 1649-1737. 1688 approx. 116 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 25 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-01 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a28581 wing b3477 estc r16825 11931112 ocm 11931112 51123 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a28581) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 51123) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 809:21) a brief account of the first rise of the name protestant and what protestantism is ... / by a professed enemy to persecution. bold, s. (samuel), 1649-1737. [8], 40 p. [s.n.], london : 1688. reproduction of original in huntington library. attributed to s. bold. cf. bm. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time 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protestant ; and what protestantism is : with a justification of it ; and an earnest exhortation to all protestants to persist in that holy religion . by a professed enemy to persecution . lord bishop of cork's protestant peace-maker . pag. 128. — i am , and must be in the mind , that the strength of the protestant cause , both here at home , and throughout christendom , lyes in the vnion of protestants ; and the glory , purity , and power of christianity in the world , stands or falls with protestantism . london , printed in the year 1688. the epistle to the protestant reader , the following papers were , for the most part of them , writ two years since , and had then been offered to your view , if they had not been obstructed by some persons , and for some considerations , of no use to be here mentioned . the author conceived at that time , there was occasion to suspect , that many who pretended to be protestants , closed with that profession out of interest , or something a-kin to that , rather than from knowledge and conscience . many appeared ignorant of the occasion of the protestant name , and to understand no better what was protestantism it self . these seemed to be so wavering and uneasie under their present circumstances , that little less was necessary to reconcile them to the roman religion , than to be certainly secured from the terrible effects of humane statutes , provided to deter men from such reconciliation . this prompted the author ( having some undesired vacation at that time , from his usual imploy ) to endeavour to contribute something towards the helping of such , who were thus unsteady , to discern what it was they were about to relinquish ; and consequently , enquire what it is , on the other side , they must espouse . people , in matters of religion , ought to be considerate and wary ; they should not deal with religion as they do with their hats and cloaths , when out of the fashion . he thinks that gibbets aad confiscations , and such engines , are no gospel appointments to befriend the true faith. yea , he is of opinion , that the ambition and sloth of church-officers , did first introduce penal laws , to defend and guard christianity , and force people into a profession of the truth . and that christianity made greater numbers of real proselites , during constantine's general toleration , than were made by the penal laws under that emperour's government , or by all the penal laws that ever were made since that time . he thinks that penal laws have not wholly rendred christianity ineffectual ; but how much they have impeded its progress , he thinks , is very hard to comprehend . they have certainly very much promoted hypocrisy and formality . the author is indeed a conformist , but one that was grieved at the indiscreet , and less charitable censures and carriages of many who boasted of the same character . he was really troubled to see them , who said they were protestants , behave themselves so unbeseemingly towards their fellow protestants , and so industriously weaken and undermine that very church they made such a clamour about . he does not impute what they did , intirely to spleen and malice against the church they pretended to . as for many of them , he apprehends their intellectuals were so impotent , they had few thoughts of their own , by which to govern themselves , but were wholly under a forreign conduct , which yet they perceived not . how many more were influenced by motions too mean and carnal for any good man voluntarily to resign himself unto ? for the first sort , we may pray , as our saviour did for his crucifiers , lord , forgive them , for they knew not what they did . but as for the other sort , he leaves others to consider what measure of charity belongs to them , who furiously ruine their religious neighbours , and pull down the church they seem to own , meerly to satisfie their own filthy and most detestable lusts . he manifested some resentment , that protestantism should be treated with so much harshness , by those who pretended to the same religion . which occasioned his having some experience , not only of the reproachful language , but the ruder effects of the misguided vehemence of some of his own communion . but these things he overlooks , and hopes that others , whose treatment hath not been very obliging , will so forget what is past , as not to insist thereon , to the prejudice und dammage of the religion in common amongst us . the prefacer concurring in all these matters with the author thinks he may , with greater confidence , apply to all sorts of protestants , in intreating and beseeching them , that they will not do any thing now against , but for the truth . and more particularly , i would desire , 1. those who are indifferent and wavering , to consider , and think seriously before they change . some , it may be , would make no scruple to depart from the protestant profession , were it not they were awed with the dread and terrour of some future danger in this world , that may possibly overtake them , should they , under present circumstances , resign up themselves to a profession our laws have made criminal . but true religion is a matter quite distinct from humane laws : it is of most necessary and important concern to men's souls , and their eternal salvation . and humane laws , whether for , or against it , do not alter the case . and therefore both as christians and as men , you ought to consider and weigh things . where different religions are propos'd , you must examine the particulars on each side , by the only rule of religion , and must govern your selves by evidence . the nature and importance of religion , and the unvaluable worth of your own souls , require this . there is nothing so foolish and absurd , as to be of a religion you do not understand , or to change your profession , you know not why , nor wherefore . would you alter , to obtain preferments and honours ? alas , how littlt reason have you to expect these things , whil'st there are others of more desert , and who bring better testimonials with them than you can ? for he that changes inconsiderately , gives no proof , either of his parts , or of his integrity . do you hope , by altering your religion , to escape troubles and sufferings ? this is an ill course to be taken for such a purpose , and not likely to succeed , because god can find you out , and has ways enough to punish you . besides , you are assured you shall not be forced to relinquish the profession or exercise of your religion , by a royal promise . a promise , which fully performed , will attract greater repute and glory to the roman religion , than all the arguments and devices , the most learned and subtil adherers to that see , did ever invent . so that you have nothing , under which you may shelter your apostacy , nothing to patronize your revolt . and to apostatise without a temptation , is at once both a folly and wickedness , that nothing can match on either account . 2. those , who pretending to the church of england , have by an extravigant fervency , and unneighbourly earnestness , done all that was in their power to impoverish , macerate , and render their follow protestants uneasie and comfortless : these i would intreat to think with sedateness on what they have done , how much they have injured the protestant interest , and what a stroke they have laid the communion to which they pretended , open unto ? 't is high time you to betake your selves to a deep humiliation , godly sorrow , and sound repentance for what you have done ; yea , to take care you manifest your humiliation and repentance in so solemn and publick a manner , as may bear some proportion to the notoriety of your fault . what inexcusable wrong have you done to the protestant cause ? what a dreadful blow have you given the church of england ? have you not made it thus to totter ? have you not laid it almost irrecoverably prostrate ? what wounds like those which were made by pretended friends ! go not about to contrive excuses , to palliate the mischief you have done , no verbal apology can make amends for your crime . repent and weep , and pray and reform , and this speedily , thorowly aggrevate your guilt , take shame to your selves publickly , and by hearty repentance , and thorow reformation , hasten to put a stop to those inundations of judgments you have made way for ; this is the least you ought to do . remember that heathens and jews , in prosecuting the old christians ; and the romanists in persecuting protestants , have this excuse above you , that they never persecuted for things which they themselves acknowledged to be meerly indifferent . as you have not been afraid to commit these evil things against your fellow protestants , with a high hand , and in the sight of the sun ; so be not now ashamed to make your repentance as open and visible : neither be averse , by restitution to the utmost of your power , to make satisfaction for all your unjust and merciless exactions . what have you wrung and squeez'd from others in an violent arbitrary way ? how many have you impoverish't , and reduc't to utmost extremities ; and this for things , which at the same time you could not but acknowlede , were not worth one hair of any man's head ? suffer not the wages of unrighteonsness to remain in any of your hands , or in any of your houses ; but by faithful restitution , do the best you can to secure your selves from the dreadful recompences such wickednesses do expose you unto . if you make not the best satisfaction you are able , to those you have wronged , what can you expect , but that god will remember your doings against you , and that you shall perish for ever like your own dung ? he hath swallowed down riches , and he shall vomit them up again , god shall cast them out of his belly . job . 20. 15. have you not just reason to be afraid , least divine vengeance should overtake you on the sudden ; and that god should make the land spew out such inhabitants ? wherefore let my counsel be acceptable unto you , and break off your sins by righteousness , and your iniquities , by shewing mercy to the poor , if it may be a lengthening of your tranquility , dan. 4. 27. 3. those who dissent from the church of england : these i would desire to take care , they do not resent their former unkind treatment with any exorbitances , nor suffer the remembrance thereof to alienate them from their protestant brethren of the other communion . do not indulge to your passions , nor keep at any greater distance than needs you must . be not hurried into any unadvised compliances , on the one hand ; or stifness on the other . permit not wrath or revenge to have any place in you , much less , to transport you into any unchristian indecencies . fall not your selves into what you have perceived to have no comliness in the conformist party . fall not out one with another : improve the ease , freedom , and liberty you injoy , for the real interest of religion . be not concerned to make parties ; neither be over-warm for notions or practices which have no plain and express warrant in scripture . let us all unite , and be brotherly affectioned one towards another . let us lay aside and cast from us , with utmost dislike , all our animosities , carnal interests , and unjust prejudices on every hand . let us wholly mind the things of christ , and bear on anothers burthens ; leave all indifferencies just as christ hath left them ; make the scriptures our only rule , and lay no more stress on any particulars , than christ himself hath laid on them . let us all pray earnestly , improve diligently , both the instructions of the holy scriptures , and the present calls of providence . let us all humble our selves duly under the mighty hand of god ; search into , and try our hearts and our ways , and turn to the lord from all our evil doings , with our whole might . let us all be of one mind , striving together for the faith of the gospel ; and let us follow after peace with all men , and holiness ; without which none must see the lord. then will the lord return and be gracious : and the ransomed of the lord shall return , and come to zion with songs , and everlasting joy upon their heads . they shall obtain joy and gladness , and sorrow and sighing shall flee away . isal . 35. 10. an account of the first rise of the name protestant , &c. maimburgh ( in his history of the league ) having occasion to take notice of a story , which had been published , and had passed very currently a long time without contradiction , for which he could find no warrant ; after he had made a full inquiry about it , makes this remark : this in reason should give a caution to such as undertake the writing of a history , not to trust all sorts of writers , and not ambitiously to swell their works with all they find written in certain unauthentick memoirs , without giving themselves the leisure to examine their merit and their quality . pag. 169. had this author himself exactly remembred , and strictly kept to this hint in all his writings , he would have done much to have rais'd himself a lasting honourable reputation , he would have greatly befriended and obliged the present generation and posterity , none could have had good warrant to write against him , his histories would have been more considerable for their truth , than now they be for their stile . and if others , who pretend to mislike misrepresenting , had but carefully observed this rule of main-burgh's , with others of the like import , christians , the most innocent , and of greatest worth , could not have been so injuriously asperst and bespattered , as of late they have been by several hands . whatever complaints and outcries may be rais'd against the protestants , as if they were not candid and just enough in the accounts they give the world of the romanist's faith , worship , and practice ; though we should allow , that in some particulars , particular writers have exceeded , and not kept within such moderate bounds as they would have done , had they followed the examples of our most learned and judicious authors ; who beyond contradiction , have proved more against their adversaries than we do ordinarily expresly charge them with ; yet upon supposition that some of our writers have been faulty this way , they are not the only persons guilty ; and of all people in the world , the romanists have the least reason to insist on a charge of this nature ; for though their fault doth not excuse any of our writers , if guilty in the same manner , yet it renders them very unmeet to upbraid and reproach , and make tragical complaints against others , for what they are more enormiously faulty in themselves . it is but too obvious , that some pains have been taken of late , to misrepresent the protestants all over , and to perswade the world into a belief of very odd and strange things both concerning their persons and religion , yea , the very name by which they are every where known . indeed the word protestant , and its rise , have been so decyphered and represented under such ungrateful characters , by persons of one complexion and of another , that some ( who , it might have been expected , had had more knowledge , and more wit ) have been almost , or rather , quite ashamed of that name which their ancestors accounted an honour , and by which the religion they pretend to , is every where known : what thoughts such have of the religion it self , time may discover . who would ever have thought that englishmen , who had a long time , or rather , all their time been brought up in the church of england , and would fain have made a figure in their countries , should yet be at a loss by what name to call the religion they did profess ; certainly the common name might have past well enough , had not some unjust prejudice prevail'd : and it 's very probable , this prejudice did take its rise from one or others misrepresenting , and giving a wrong account of that name . those who prefess true and unmixt christianity , have for a great while , been distinguished in most parts of the world , by the name of protestants ; from others , who have mingled with a profession of christianity a great many gross contradictions and inconsistencies : and till now of late , none who owned the religion , were ashamed of the name : those who liked not the romish communion , did not think it a reproach to be called protestants . though the name might be first devised by the adversaries of our religion , and might be used by them at first in scorn and contempt , with reference to those who would not imbrace and submit to all the forreign and unscriptural notions and practices which received life and authority from rome ; yet the antient love to , and zeal for religion , only as commanded by divine authority , and as warranted by those books which are universally acknowledged by all christians to be writ by men divinely inspired , reconciled our ancestors to that name by which the adversaries of their religion would have redicul'd them out of their profession . and how it is come to pass , that people professing the same religion , should now appear shy , and boggle at the name , as if some dreadful and hideous matter were wrapt up in the word protestant , i cannot imagine , unless either their love to , and zeal for their religion , be less than their ancestor's was ; or that some false representations have been made to them of the importance and first occasion of this name . what sort of writers have contributed most to create prejudices in mens minds against the name protestant , i will not determine : but i do not lay all the fault of misrepresenting in this case , on those who do openly profess themselves of the romish communion ; and yet i cannot wholly excuse them , because of late , they have been at no small study and trouble to perswade people to entertain very wrong idea's both of the protestant name and religion . we are lately told , that the protestant perswasion has its name , being , and support , not from what it is in it self , but from what it is not , in defying and protesting against their neighbours . rep. in behalf of amicable accomod . pag. 17. now it may not be altogether improper , in order to the setting of some weaker people right in their apprehensions , to give a short and true account of the first occasion and rise of this name protestant , and its general use ever since , from authors of the best credit and repute on each side . and that this account may be the more clear and distinct , it will be requisite to observe in general , that a great corruption had for many ages overspread christianity , in the romish church . afterwards we may take notice , how princes and people were more directly prepared to renounce and cast off those corruptions ; and then it will be proper to relate the particular matter of fact which occasioned this name protestant : and when these are dispatched , you shall hear what protestantism is , and wherein protestantism doth really consist . the word protestant is a forreign word , derived to us from other people ; and it has been , and is still used with relation to religion , in all nations where it is mentioned . so that every where , those who have owned and professed the protestant religion , have past currently with all sorts of people for protestants . and the protestant religion is the true christian religion , rescued and reformed from those corruptions and humane additions the church of rome had for many ages , without good warrant , intermixed with it . the mystery of iniquity , which began in the apostles days , did by degrees increase to that height in the roman church , that it almost overwhelmed true christianity , and made religion appear , and be in the world little else than a trick of policy , and a meer piece of pageantry . and when the people had been a great while inured to nothing but lifeless superstitious formalities , and were brought up blindly in a superstitious , carnal , gay sort of practice , which was called worship , the bishops of that see did by several artifices and tricks , first acquire , and then improve opportunities , to gratifie their own utmost and unreasonable ambition : for the princes and people were in many places so effeminated , made so soft and easie , and unthinking by their methods , they very tamely and patiently gave way to their most unjust incroachments , till at last they were not able to help themselves , nor oppose the increasing greatness of that see. and when matters were brought to this pass , then several points were forced on the whole western church ; the burthen of which , the inhabitants of those parts had never before felt ; and which those who first gave way to the usurpations of that see , never dream't of . now an universal supremacy over the whole church was challenged , and a power pretended , to make whatever pleas'd a duty . in short , the bishop of that see pretended an infallibility , which must not be call'd in question ; he assum'd a power to dispose of people's sins and souls as he thought fit , and perswaded them he could consecrate any thing they would buy , to be an effectual means to purge away their guilt . nay , at last he claimed a power to dispose of governments , appropriating to himself a superiority in every prince's dominions ; and both princes and people were blinded to that degree , through the ignorance , superstitions , and impurity which they had given way to , and the just infatuation which god suffered to crawl on and over-power them , that for a long time , very few , either of the princes or people , did make any considerable attempts to extricate themselves out of that bondage , or get rid of the tyranny and apostacy into which they were sunk . but the time hastening on , when god would deliver his people out of of that wretched estate : the head and principal instruments of the romish state were grown so secure and fearless of danger , they gave up themselves to their lusts , and minded nothing but how to invent new ways to impoverish the people ; by which means they occasioned the people to awake , and suggested to their minds the most powerful and justest prejudices against the way they were in , and that church they did then adhere to . for though there were many beams of light which shone up and down in the world , yet two things did principally dispose the people to cast off that spiritual and civil yoke which had mightily gall'd both their consciences and their necks , and to inquire after the truth and purity of religion . the first , was the obvious , prodigious ignorance , sloth , and beastly sensuality and debauchery of the generality of those who pretended they had the keeping of the people's souls and consciences ; the wickedness , tyranny , and unsatiableness of the greatest part , by far , of the clergy , was such as struck most violently on the outward senses of the people : so that they were forced to conclude , god would not intrust any extraordinary depositum with such persons . a german bishop , in the year 1519 ( which was not long before the reformation , ) complains ( as in museccle i find him quoted ) in this manner : i am afraid the doctrine of the apostle , touching the qualifications of a bishop , is but very ill observed in these days , or rather , that we are fallen into those times which he noted , when he said , i know that after my departure ravenous wolves will come among you , not sparing the flock . where may one see a good man chosen to be a bishop ? one approved by his works and his learning : and any one , who is not either a child , or worldly , or ignorant in spiritual things ? they have no love for ony but sinners , they despise the poor , they keep about their persons pimps , debauchers of women , flatterers , buffoons , players , when they should have wise and holy men. the revenues of the church are given , not to the servants of god , but to those of the devil , to debauchers of women , to adulterers , gamesters , hunters , flatterers , and such like men. and hence it is , that the house of god is become tributary to the devil . matthew paris , i remember , speaking in his history , of the corruption and wickedness of the clergy , saith , it was risen to so infamous a height , the devil sent them letters of thanks , because of the extraordinary service they did him , in sending souls to hell in greater troops than ever came thither before . you may find large accounts of , and complaints against their notorious wickedness in the writings of nic. de clemang . and others . several of the popish writers do acknowledge , their debauchery and wickedness was such , as did necessitate the people to seek after a reformation . and truly ( saith meceray ) the extream ignorance of the clergy , many of them scarce able to read ; the scandalons lives of the pastors , most of them concubinaries , drunkards , and userers ; and their extream negligence gave him ( viz. luther ) a fair advantage to perswade the people , that the religion they taught , was corrupt , since their lives and examples were so bad . a second thing which very much awaken'd the princes and people , and prepar'd them to cast off and renounce the romish trumpery , was the pope's , bishop's , and other ecclesiastical officers most enormious prostituting those very things wherein they pretended to place very much of their religion , and by which they pretended to impart to the people the merits of jesus christ , and of the saints . for leo the tenth having a mind to raise great summs of mony to satisfie his own profuse humour , and make large provisions for his kindred , sent abroad his agents through the empire , but especially in germany , to sell the pardon of sins publickly , under pretence to build the church of st. peters at rome . the sellers of these indulgencies , did prostitute them at the strangest rate imaginable ; for they would sell them for any thing wherewith they might satisfie their lusts . they would play them away at taverns ; at a game at dice , they would stake a man against so much money , the pardon of his sins , or a power to deliver souls out of purgatiry . and when this was complained of , and wrote against by luther , the pope sent his bull to confirm these indulgencies , asserting his power to give and divulge them in this manner . by the power of the keys given to st. peter and his successors , the bishops of rome , had a right to pardon the faithful all the guilt and punishment of their actual sins ; to wit , the guilt , by means of the sacrament of pennance ; and the temporal punishment by means of indulgencies , whether in this life , or in purgatory : and that by those indulgencies , he could apply to the living and the dead , the superabundance of the merits of jesus christ and the saints , either by way of absolution , or by way of suffrage . so that the living and the dead participating of those indulgencies , were delivered from the punishment that the divine justice would inflict on them for their actual sins . but luther's contending this point with the romish agents , put him and others on a more strict inquiry into other corruptions in that church : by which means light broke forth dayly with more power , to the full satisfaction of very many , that there was an absolute necessity of a reformation . and the agents being not able to contest the matter fairly with luther , eccius and others being quite worsted and baffled in their arguings , sylvester prierias positively insisted on the pope's authority , acknowledging the scriptures did not warrant those indulgencies , but that the pope did , whose authority , he asserted , was above the scriptures . and thus he brought that point on the stage , which upon examination , appearing to be a meer cheat and gross untruth , the people hastened to imbrace the sufficiency of the scripture , and that the holy scriptures were the only rule god had appointed christians to guide themselves by in all matters of religion , in opposition to the pope's pretended authority . this , of the pope's authority , being the point , for which both head and members of that church were mainly concerned , and which supports and keeps all the other corruptions in that church , in life , when the vanity and ungroundedness , the absurdity and wickedness of that claim came to be exposed and laid open to the world , the interest of that church did very mueh sink , and the authority of scripture was much advanced amongst people . so that the pope , notwithstanding all his letters and stratagems to destroy luther , and hinder the spreading of that light which was now broken forth , could not effect his design ; but knowledge increased every day , and the authority of the scripture was much insisted on , to the great damage of the pope and his adherents . 't is true , the pope by his letters and nuncio's , did prevail with the emperour , and some of the princes of germany , to make an edict , when they were assembled at worms , which forbad luther fire and water , and the commerce of all the world ; it extended also to all his favourers and followers , and complices : but the more violent the pope and and his people were against luther , and the greater stir they kept with the princes to see the edict of worms strictly executed , the greater number of friends god raised up for luther and his followers . for the princes assembled at nuremberg , declared they could not put the pope's bull , nor the edict of worms in execution , without involving themselves in great dangers , and that the generality of the people were so sensible how matters stood , having their eyes opened by the writings of the lutherans , that if they should execute those sentences , the people would believe they were only made to overthrow the truth of the gospel , and to maintain and defend their evil abuses and impieties , &c. and having drawn up this their answer in form of an edict , they sent their grievances to the pope , to the number of an hundred articles , which they call'd , centum gravamina . after this , another assembly of the princes publish'd another declaration in form of an imperial edict , which extreamly provok't the pope and all his creatures . upon this the pope complained to the emperour by letters ; and to animate him the more , he perswaded him that that was a manifest breach of his authority , and a form and design to withdraw themselves intirely from his obedience : the emperour is hereby prevailed with to concern himself in the matter ; and accordingly , writes very preremptorily to the princes , requiring them to execute the edict of 〈◊〉 , and make void that of nuremberg . and this brings me to to the very rise of the name protestant ; an account of which i will give you in the englished words of a forreign divine , who hath very faithfully collected his relation out of the most celebrated and authentick historians who have writ the affairs of those times . his account is thus . in the month of april , in the year 1529 , an assembly of the princes and other states of germany was held at spire ; whether pope clement did not sail to send a nuncio : the first thing they did there , was to reject the assembly at the city of strasburgh , under pretence that it had abolished the use of the mass , without waiting for the imperial diet. this violent procedure was quickly after followed by a decree , that ferdinand arch-duke of austria , and some other princes who took part with the court of rome made , and whom the emperour had expresly chozen for his deputy commissioners . they ordained therefore in the first place , that those who till then had observed the edict of worms , that is to say , who not only had not received the reformation , but who had persecuted it with all their might , should for the future do the like , and force their subjects to do the same : and that as for those , in whose countries those new doctrines had been spread abroad , provided they could not extirpate them , without putting themselves into manifest danger of stirring up troubles , it should be their part , at least , to hinder any thing more from being innovated , till the calling of a council . secondly , they ordained , that above all things , the doctrine which opposed the substantial presence , should neither be propounded nor received by any in all the compass of germany , and that the mass should not be abrogated . in the third place , they decreed , that they should not allow preachers in any place to explain the gospel otherwise than by the interpretation of the fathers . in fine , they ordained grievous penalties against the printers and booksellers who should print or vend , for the future , the books that contained that new doctrine . the other princes and states of the empire beholding this manifest oppression , thought themselves bound to make an act of protestation to the contrary : they remonstrated therefore , that that new decree contradicted that which had been passed in the preceding assembly , where every one was to be free in respect of his religion ; that they did not pretend to hinder the other princes and states from enjoying that liberty ; but that on the contrary , they pray'd god that he would give them the knowledge of his truth : that they could not , with a good conscience , approve of the reason , for which they would allow them to retain the evangelical doctrine , to wit , least they should fall into new troubles ; for that would be to confess , that it would be good to renounce that doctrine , if it could be done without tumult ; which would be a criminal and wicked confession , and a tacit denyal of the word of god. that as to the mass , those who had abolish't it , and who had re-established in its place the lawful use of the supper of our lord , were led by the institution of our lord jesus christ . that as for the doctrine that opposed the real presence , they did not believe , that they ought lightly to condemn those who held it , without hearing them ; and that proceeding was against equity , especially in a matter of so great consequence . in fine , that they could not consent to that decree , offering the reasons of their carriage to the emperour and all the world. that they did appeal to a free council , and that in waiting for it , they would do nothing for which they should justly deserve any blame . — this act of protestation was made at spire , the 19th . of april , 1529. and from thence came the name of protestants ; which has been since given to all those who have embraced the reformation . this is the true account of the first rise of this name protestant ; which was used by way of reproach by those who adhered to the romish corruptions , and asserted the pope's authority above the scripture , towards them who renounced those corruptions , and protested against the pope's supremacy , and for the sufficiency and sole authority of the scripture . and this name hath ever since been applied to , and appropriated by them who have renounced popish corruptions , and especially , that great fundamental article of the supremacy , because of their contradiction to , and derogating from the holy scriptures . the best historians , both protestant and popish , do confirm the truth of this relation ; and that all people have promiscuously past in all countries under the name of protestants , who have renounced the pope's authority , and that body or system of false doctrines and superstitious practices , which are maintained and justified in the romish church , because of their contradiction unto scripture . for the name protestant is a common title to discriminate all those who renounce and forsake the romish communion , because of its contradiction to the holy scripture , from those who do own , and are of that communion . but it was not designed to descriminate one sort of people renouncing and protesting against that communion on the aforesaid account , from others who agree in the same point . and therefore in every age and nation , other names have been made use of to discriminate protestants one from another , according to the matter in difference betwixt them . true protestantism then consisteth more especially in two points . first , protesting against , and renouncing popish corruptions , and especially all such infallibility , supremacy , and authority as the bishops of rome have , for some ages , laid a claim to . it is the renouncing the thing it self , which protestantism chiefly respects ; its reference to such a particular person , is only accidental , by reason of his audacious and arrogant challenging that power . but protestantism would be equally against the claim , if that bishop should lay it down , and any other , either in france , or in any other countrey , should challenge it ; or if it should be pretended to be lodged in any other man , or body of men. secondly , protesting for the sufficiency and authority of the scripture : that the holy scripture is a safe and full rule for the instruction of us in all things needful to be known or done in order to eternal life ; and that nothing ought to be admitted as an article of christian faith ; which cannot , by just consequence , be proved by this rule , according as the church of england expresseth her self . article 6. in these two things protestantism doth consist ; the denial and renouncing of the pope's arrogated supremacy , and all those superstructions which have no foundation but that authority ; and the owning and adhering to the scriptures , as the only compleat rule of religion : this is the great , fundamental , positive principle in protestantism . for protestantism doth not take away an andue , boundless power and authority from the pope , and conser it on another person . it ascribes indeed to the supream power in every nation , what belongs to the same , according to the constitution of the government ; protesting against all forreign and every unjust pretence and claim , to the prejudice of the rightful owner . and it asserts the only right of the scripture to be the rule that every supream power on earth should observe in restoring and reforming religion , as occasions are offered , by reason of the decays or corruptions which may have prevailed . the bible , i say , the bible only is the religion of protestants , whatsoever else they believe besides it , and the plain irrefragable , indubitable consequences of it ; well may they hold it as a matter of opinion ; but as matter of faith and religion , neither can they , with coherence to their own grounds , believe it themselves , nor require the belief of it of others , without most high and schismatical presumption . and now , seeing protestantism doth mainly , or rather , only consist in asserting the holy scriptures to be the rule , the only rule , by which all christians are to govern and manage themselves in all matters of religion . so that no doctrine is to be owned as an article of faith , on any account , but what hath very plain warant and sound evidence from the scriptures ; nor no instance of religious worship to be owned or submitted to , as necessary ; nor any thing to be entertained as a part of religion , but what the scripture doth appoint and warrant . it may not be altogether unuseful , to inquire briefly , whether this principle be really justifiable , or no ? or , whether those who are called protestants , on this account , be truly in the right , touching this matter ? for , if we be right in this point , then the great fundamental opposite point of our adversaries must needs have a slaw in it , and cannot be solid and substantial ; and consequently , all the particular doctrines and practices , which have their whole being and dependance on that authority , must necessarily expire , and give up the ghost . now much might be offered to evince , that protestants have very good ground to rest assured , that they are not mistaken in this matter : but i will only offer these few considerations ; which being well considered and improved , may suffice to satisfie any unprejudiced and imp●●tial honest meaning person , that protestantism is not a ●●mersome precarious thing , but is really accompanied with the greatest evidence and certainty any perswasion can justly pretend unto . first , it is universally acknowledged , by all who profess themselves christians , that the holy scriptures , viz. those books contained in the old and new testament , as received by protestants , are the word of god , and were written at the appointment of god , for the constant use and benefit of his church and people , by persons divinely inspired for that purpose . secondly , supposing ( but not granting ) that those scriptures do not contain the whole revelation god hath made of his mind and will , for the constant , perpetual , and obliging use of his church ; yet it is most evident , that these scriptures are a safe and most certain rule in matters of religion , so far as they do extend . they are a certain rule touching those matters of which they do treat , and so far as they do treat of them . so that there can be no just pretence of a divine revelation for any doctrines or practices which are inconsistent with , or contradictory to what god hath declared in these scriptures : because the divine veracity and truth , which is essential to the deity , cannot permit , that god should contradict himself . all that can be pretended , with reference to this matter , is , that god may make more declarations of his will ; and either inlarge the discoveries he hath made of his will touching particulars already made known ; or add declarations of his mind concerning matters which he doth not at all discourse of in the scriptures . but it is not consistent with the natural notions of a deity , not with the revelations god hath made any way of himself , that he should overthrow the truth of a former revelation by a latter , or that contradictions should be reconcileable in his will. for any man to affirm that a divine revelation may contradict any thing taught in the scriptures , whil'st he professeth these scriptures are pure divine revelations , is not only to involve himself in most obvious and horrid absurdities , but to contract upon himself , to burthen and overwhelm himself with the guilt of the most plain and unnatural blasphemy against god. if any thing that plainly contradicts the scripture , can be a divine revelation , then a man may be indispensibly obliged to believe , and not to believe the same thing ; to do , and not to do the same work . and so man will be brought under such circumstances , that whether he believe , or do not believe ; whether he practice , or do not practice , it will be the same thing , he will be equally guilty . but certainly , if our adversaries can pretend to revelations which do contradict the scriptures , they cannot pretend to lay any obligation on us to comply with them in those matters which the scriptures do contradict ; for we have every jot as good authority to believe and practice in direct contradiction to them , as they have to believe and act in express contradiction to us , though we should condescend to an impossible supposition , viz. that a divine revelation may contradict the scriptures . besides , they have no need or occasion to trouble themselves to prevail with us to comply with them in their points ; for ( supposing their revelations to be as they prerend ) whether we comply , or do not comply , the case is just the same ; for we are never the better if we do comply with them ; nor is our guilt and offence one jot the more , if we do not comply . but if what they call divine revelations , be not really so ; and they will , notwithstanding , believe or act , or both , in contradiction to the scriptures , which are known , owned , and professed divine revelations ; let them seriously consider what is like to be the fruit of their so doing . we have reason therefore to conclude , that all those doctrines and practices which are inconsistent with , and do contradict what is declared in the holy scripture , have not a divine original , but have their rise from the fountain of falshood and untruth : and therefore we cannot be justly blamed , if we protest against and reject such notions and practices ; for we certainly have a good foundation and just authority for every part of our religion , which scripture doth expresly and plainly warrant . and they must needs be at a great loss for just authority , as to those points which expresly contradict the scripture , whatever may become of those points amongst them , touching which , they may conceive the scripture is silent . but lastly , if the holy scriptures we are speaking of , do contain the whole and intire revelation of the mind and will of god , which he hath designed for the constant and perpetual use of his church and people , and do furnish people with full instructions and directions in all matters of religion , then protestants have very good warrant to affirm and stedfastly adhere to this point , viz. that the holy scriptures are the only rule we are to govern our selves by in all matters of religion . and we are safe enough as to this part of our main principle ; and cannot , with any justice , be reproached or blamed by our adversaries on this account , till they can produce very good and substantial evidence for some other divine revelation really distinct from those we are discoursing of . but this is a task so hard for them to undertake , so impossible for them to perform , that there is not one understanding person in that communion ( i am perswaded ) who dares adventure to ingage in it . for it will not serve the turn to talk honourably of tradition in general , nor to make a noise about apostolical traditions , without mentioning particular traditions , and proving them to be divine revelations , and that they are truly apostolical , and were by divine appointment set apart for the perpetual use of the christian church . the council of trent speaks loud of apostolical traditions , and advances them to the same degree with the holy scriptures , and appears so resolv'd for these traditions , that she makes them necessary to compleat the scripture , in order unto its being a perfect rule : but alas , her courage cool'd in a little time , for she dared only to talk extravagantly , and in excessive terms of tradition in general ; she dared not to name particular traditions , which she would own and undertake to prove truly apostolical , and of divine and constantly binding authority to the church . and since she thought it not convenient to descend to particulars , i am of opinion , particular persons in that communion will not care to meddle in the matter , but rather chuse to refer it to another council , when they can get one : because , if they should undertake it , it must only be for our sakes ; and those of that communion cannot but know , that nothing less will satisfie such cautious , reasonable people as protestants are , in a matter of this nature , than such evidence , as is very substantial and proportionate to the thing to be proved . and could they produce ever so good evidence for any particular they will call a divine revelation , or apostolical tradition , it would be of no use to those of their own church , who prefer particular humane testimony , called by another name , before all sort of proper and suitable evidence . and after all their pains , though they could produce satisfactory evidence ( which i affirm to be utterly impossible in this case ) for some tradition which would inforce some point the scriptures do not inforce yet this would not do them any service , however it would weaken our principle , as touching the perfect on of that body of divine revelations we have : for notwithstanding , we should , in obedience to a divine revelation , though roughly proved and evidenced , concur and joyn with them in some point we did not imbrace before ; yet the difference betwixt them and us in that matter , would be as great as before ; there would still remain a formal difference betwixt us touching this very particular ; because , though we should believe or practice the same thing , yet the formal reason of believing or doing it , would be totally different . so that if any would attempt to produce substantial evidence for any revelation distinct from the scriptures , their labour will be wholly useless , with reference to their church , unless they can produce a revelation relating to their church , like that law the flattering courtiers of an eastern prince told him they could find , when they were at a loss for a particular law , to warrant some particular practice the prince was inclined unto ; though they knew of no law relating to what was propos'd , yet there was a law , that the prince might command and do what he pleased . such a revelation our adversaries must produce , ( indeed , i am apprehensive , they act in that communion , as if they had such a revelation ; but all the mischief is , they cannot produce valid proof for it ) or else they must be at the trouble of providing distinct revelations for the several points in dispute , and distinct evidence , unless they can make a shift to croud three or four of their notions into a single tradition , and so make shorter work of it . in short , the protestants do affirm , that divine revelation is the only rule of christian religion : that the holy scriptures are confessedly divine revelations : that these holy scriptures do contain all those divine revelations god hath appointed to be of perpetual standing , obliging use to his church and people . we acknowledge , that were it possible for our adversaries to produce solid proof , that there is any divine revelation distinct from what these holy scriptures do contain , which god hath appointed to be of constant , perpetual , binding use to his church , they might thereby invalidate our principle , which doth affirm , that the holy scriptures are the only rule by which christians are to govern themselves in all matters of religion : but yet we affirm , their doing this , would not really advantage their cause ; because the same formal difference would remain betwixt them and us after , as before ; for though we should be obliged , on their exhibiting such proof for some particular revelation , which should warrant and oblige to own and use some doctrine or practice at present in dispute betwixt us ; yet the agreement which would then seem to be betwixt them and us , in that particular , would only be material , and not formal ; because we should then own the doctrine or practice , what is injoyned , purely because taught and commanded by a divine revelation , throughly evidenced : and they would own the doctrine or practice , the duty injoyned , purely because taught and commanded by a meer humane authority , which they are pleased to name infallible . and it will not be to any purpose , for them to undertake a more quick dispatch in this matter , by talking of an infallible judge , for he cannot be judge and rule too : there must be divine revelation , which must be the rule for their infallible judge to exercise and imploy his infallible judgment about . and seeing all their attempts to prove their infallible judge by scripture , have been very unfortunate , and without success . i may take it for granted , when once they have agreed together , and found out their infallible judge , their best proof that that person , or body of men ( which ever they shall agree upon ) is a judge , and an infallible judge in matters of religion , must be some new revelation , or some old tradition never hitherto known to be a divine revelation ; for we must have better proof than any that has yet been offered on the behalf of any of their traditions , before we can entertain them as divine revelations . and when they have well proved that tradition , and its divine authority , which shall fix and settle their infallible judge , they must still be at the trouble and pains to produce very substantial proof for every other tradition they will make a part of the christian rule . for the authority of their infallible judge will not do here , because his infallibility does not reach to make , nor declare a rule , but is purely concerned about the true sense and meaning of an acknowledged rule , when controversies do arise about the importance of any expressions contained in that rule . but besides all this , protestants have such evidence , as doth create certain assurance , that the holy scriptures are fully perfect , to instruct and direct believers in all matters of religion , and do contain all those divine revelations god hath appointed to be of necessary and perpetual use unto his church : greater evidence cannot be desired , than the express witness , testimony , and declaration of the unerring spirit of the faithful and true god. and this we have most plainly , to the unavoidable and full conviction of every honest , piously disposed , ingenious , and unprejudiced person , who really owns and believes the holy scriptures are the word of god : and this , you heard before , is the professed belief of all who profess themselves christians . and if such kind of evidence will not serve peoples turns , i must acknowledge , they are of a temper i do not much care to deal with ; for i must confess , i am no preat admirer of booted blunderbus apostles ; nor do i think he makes any real proselites , who only dragoon's men into a perswasion : i never lik'd murthering men for religion ; nor persecuting men , because their consciences would not stretch to every body's phancy . i think , whil'st the scriptures are acknowledged , on all sides , to be divine revelations , the greatest and best evidence we can have , in matters of religion , is plain and express scripture . and if in all our disputes with our adversaries , we did strictly keep within this compass , we should guard and maintain our owe cause the better , and wound our adversaries cause the more fatally : not but that i am very sensible , we have antiquity , the fathers , rhe primitive writers , and the most general councils on our side , either expresly , or by way of silence ; thereby certifying us , that no such points were known , or in question in those days . but alas ! by having ordinary recourse to the fathers , &c. we mightily gratifie our adversaries ; for hereby they get out of the immediate reach of the sword of the spirit : and all the testimonies of antiquity taken together , in their own strength , will not do rhe thousandth part of that execution against a heresy , as one plain and express scripture will. besides , how often do we see , that when the greatly read and learned , on both sides , do fall together by the ears over the fathers , they lengthen the dispute beyond measure ; and not only bewilder the hearer or reader , but even themselves too ; that by the time they are got half through the dispute , they have well night forgot what it was they began to dispute about . and having slipt into this digression , i may even adventure to hint one digression more , relating to the common way of managing controversies with our adversaries , the romanists . it may be , if it be well inquired into , it may appear , that we do not ordinarily proceed in our controversial discourses with them , in that free and ingenious manner we ought , but do too much limit and straighten our selves . according to that little measure of apprehension i have , it seems to me most expedient and most proper for us , in opposing our adversaries , to maintain protestantism , or the protestant doctrines , both really and professedly as such ; and not to pinnion our selves , by pretending to maintain them , as taught or owned by particular communions . the cause is a common cause ; and the arguments we can truly maintain it with , are common arguments ; one party is no more interested in them than another ; nor do the matters in dispute amongst our selves , concern the controversies betwixt us and our common adversaries . why should we so affect and hug our selves in our private notions , and particular differences , as to please our selves with , or at least , receive and keep up the unreasonable remembrance of them . indeed , i do acknowledge the candor of our adversaries , in that they have not improved the advantage they might have taken , to have made some tragical appearances , by falling upon us , with reference to this very matter , of undertaking to maintain protestant doctrines , meerly as owned by a particular party : for what doth this properly import , but that we relinquish the common principle , and undertake , only to maintain our doctrines , not by the scripture , as the general and only rule of christian religion , but by the scripture as limited and bounded by those discriminating terms and instances , whereby we are distinguished from all others , who take the scripture to be the only rule in all matters of religion . now , will not this , if insisted on , make our task the harder , and the more confound and perplex our controversies ? but would it not seem odd for a remonstrant , or a contra-remonstrant to defend christianiry , or the particular doctrines of christianity , against jews or heathens , purely as a remonstrant , or a contra-remonstrant ? for what have their particular differences to do in matters wherein they all agreed , and in maintaining of that , for which both sides are equally concerned ? the main of the controversy betwixt us and those of the romish communion , is either , whether the holy scriptures be the only rule in all matters of religion ? or , whether those particular doctrines wherein they and we do differ , have warrant from the scriptures ? and what need we , intreating on these points , to interest any discriminating notions amongst our selves ; as far as we do agree , let us walk by the same rule . besides , by concerning our selves for protestantism , and protestant doctrines ( even in opposition to our adversaries ) in common , as fixing the scriptures to be the only rule , and that our particular doctrine have plain warrant from the scripture , and those we oppose , are either contrary to the scriptures , or have no warrant at all from thence , we are excused from any obligation to trouble our selves with defending any unwary , or less proper expressions , which may have slipt from particular parties , or particular persons , in declaring their sense of particular doctrines ; for whether they exprest themselves properly , or no ; or whether their opinion were right , or no , is not at all material to the controversy betwixt those of the church of rome and us . for if any parties , or single persons , have declared their sense and opinions concerning any doctrine , or matter of practice , either that their opinion doth accord with scripture , or it doth not : if it do , it is the protestant doctrine ; if it do not , it is not a protestant doctrine ; and so it doth not at all affect us ; since we own , that persons professing themselves protestants , may mistake , as well as , we do declare our assurance , that those who have been named infallible , in another communion , have erred most grieviously . but this we affirm that so far as any do keep strictly and closely to the holy scriptures , they cannot mistake . and protestants have no real concern to vindicate any party , or person , any further than they do keep unto the scripture . but now to return from these digressions , unto what was said before , viz. that protestants have such evidence , as doth create certain assurance , that the holy scriptures are fully perfect , to instruct and direct believers in all matters of religion , and do contain all those divine revelations god hath appointed to be of necessary and perpetual use unto his church . i need not relate the whole evidence that might be produced on this occasion . i will therefore content my self with these two particulars , relating to this matter , which certainly must sway powerfully with them who are under an influence which is truly religious . the first , is this : 1. that the holy spirit of god hath expresly declared , that the holy scriptures are compleat and perfect to all the ends and purposes of divine revelations . hear how large and particular the holy spirit of god is , in declaring the fullness and perfection of the scriptures . 2 tim. 3. 15 , 16 , 17. and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures , which are able to make thee wise unto salvation , through faith which is in christ jesus . all scripture is given by inspiration of god , and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness ; that the man of god may be perfect , throughly furnished unto all good works . 2. the same holy spirit hath solemnly devoted to the most dreadful curse of almighty god , whomsoever shall be so arrogant and presumptuous , as to offer any other doctrine besides what the holy scriptures do teach , as a divine revelation . gal. 1. 8. but though we , or an angel from heaven , preach any other gospel unto you , than that which we have preached unto you , let him be accursed . now if people will pretend to produce other divine revelations , which god hath appointed to be of perpetual use to his church ; either those must invalidate these holy scriptures ; or else these holy scriptures must invalidate them ; they cannot consist well together . if we will own and stick to the holy scriptures , we must reject whatever additional discoveries shall be produced ; because , the spirit hath , in these scriptures , excluded them . what hath been discoursed concerning the evidence protestants have for their great and main principle , may justly promt to take notice of two things . 1. that they who would hinder and discourage people from reading and studying the holy scriptures , do give them just occasion to suspect , that they have none of the honestest and most commendable designs to manage . we are very certain , the holy prophets of god , the lord jesus christ , and his apostles , were persons beloved of god , and persons who were greatly concerned for peoples spiritual welfare ; and we are as certain , that these were very much , and in good earnest , in pressing , exciting , and perswading the common sort of people to read and study the scriptures ; they command them in the name of god , to read and learn the scriptures , and those revelations of the mind of god , which were communicated unto them ; read deut. 31. 11 , 12 , 13. deut. 6. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. john 5. 39. col. 3. 16. nay , does not the design and end for which god hath made his will known , and caus'd it to be committed to writing , manifest and prove our duty evidently enough ? for what end hath god given the holy scriptures unto his church and people ? are we not assured that the scriptures were written for our learning , for our instruction , for our admonition ? &c. and must we not read them then ? how will they answer these ends , if we must not consult them ? were not the scriptures written for our learning , that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures , might have hope ? read and consider rom. 15. 4. have we not then too much ground to suspect , that those who would take , or keep our bibles from us , are enemies to our faith , patience , comfort , hope , and happiness ? is not the word of god that sword of the spirit , with which we are to defend our selves , and worst our spiritual enemies ? ephes . 6. 17. and now what reason have we to take them for our friends , who would lay us open , and expose us naked to the assaults of sathan and his instruments ? the holy penmen of the scriptures did , by the direction of the blessed spirit , commend people for applying themselves to the holy scriptures , and endeavouring to improve in the knowledge of them . see psal . 1. 2. act. 17. 11. act. 18. 24. 2 tim. 3. 15. and it is certain , that the people of god ( of every rank and condition ) under the old testament dispensation , were obliged by especial appointment from god , to take care to read , and labour after a continual increase in the knowledge of the scriptures . now , can we imagine , that god having given us a larger discovery of his mind , doth dispence with our neglect to search the scriptures . can those who are against the lay-peoples reading of the scripture , find any command of christ , requiring them not to read the scripture ? can they produce any condemnation or censure from the prophets , from christ , or from his apostles , against those who shall read the word of god ? or can they make it appear , that any of these did ever commend people for their neglecting to read the scripture ? if they cannot do any of all this , let their pretences and self-vindications touching this matter , be never so plausible , we may rest assured , there is nothing solid and substantial in what they say ; for there cannot be any reason against god. the more subtle and cunning their pretences are , the worse men they manifest themselves to be ; because they abuse those abilities which should have been applied another way , and might , had they been used aright , have been very serviceable to promote the interest of truth and holiness . the most plausible pretence they do produce for their prohibiting people the common use of the scripture , is , that the ordinary sort of people would be very apt to abuse and wrest the scriptures to their own destruction , should they be permitted to have free recourse unto them . but allowing , that people may wrest the scripture , and make some other use of it than they ought , this is not an inconvenience which will make null , and discharge men from god's command of reading and searching the scripture . you may , with as much reason , oblige men to forbear the use of wholesome food , meat and drink , and starve themselves to death , because some , by their intemperance and excess , do abuse wholesome food , and make it an occasion of dangerous distempers and diseases , yea , and death it self . you may as lawfully deprive people of their corporal , as of their spiritual food . besides , this very particular hath been foreseen , and taken notice of , by the pen-men of the holy scripture , if we interpret 2 pet. 3. 16. according to the usual acceptation of that place , by those who do alledge it for their purpose , as to this matter . and yet there is not one word there , to oblige people , on that account , to desist from the reading of the scriptures . the people may , and ought to be warned to take heed how they read the scriptures , and that they avoid errours , and pervert not the word of god. but the scriptures are not therefore to be detained from them : god hath not thought fit to provide such a remedy against peoples abusing his word , as this is , of keeping it intirely from them . yea , this very apostle doth , as it were , in the next verses , perswade them to the due and right study , and improvement of the scriptures , that they may avoid the errours others do fall into , by abusing them , and may increase in the knowledge of christ . it is undeniably evident , that this same apostle doth , in this same epistle , commend peoples reading of the scriptures , and attending unto them . we have also a more sure word of prophecy , whereunto ye do well , that ye take heed , as unto a light that shineth in a dark place , until the day dawn , and the day-star arise in your hearts . 2 pet. 1. 19. and , however it is common , to attribute the rise of errours to the common sort of peoples having the free use of the scriptures ; yet , upon due examination , it will be found , that the worst and most fatal errous have sprung from , and been advanced by them , who pretending to more knowledge and learning , and abilities than the rest of mankind , have presumed to appropriate to themselves the intire custody or interpretation of the scriptures . nay , it is truly observed , by one who appears to have consulted antiquity with much care and diligence , that the laity so well understood their faith , that many times , they , by their sagacity , discerned the sly insinuations of errour , in the sermons of their unsound and heretical bishops ; and so occasioned them to be condemned by synodical sentences : and through the radicated sense of faith , would never be brought to any of the alterations made by any corrupt councils ; nor , would ever rest under their prevarications , till the primitive faith recovered , and vacated all those synodical prevarications ; as may be seen in all the arian history ; and particularly , the relation given , of the vulgar sagacity and zeal , to detect and repress that heresy in st. hierom against the luciferians . if this notion , of keeping the scriptures from the people , or of obliging the people to understand the scriptures no otherwise than those would interpret them , who were arrogant enough to claim , and assume to themselves this priviledge , had intirely prevail'd , when our blessed saviour was on earth , god only knows , how much our saviour's reputation might have suffered , even in succeeding generations . for , as these presumptuous persons did pretend , that the key of the scripture did hang only at their girdle , so they refused to acknowledge christ was the messiah , the son of god , and they both accused him as an impostor , a deceiver , an ill man ; and charged and censured the people as ignorant persons , who did not understand the law , little better than hereticks , a cursed generation : and all this was , because they did listen unto christ , follow him , and believe in him ; that is , did undertake to judge of matters by the scripture ; and to determine this was the saviour , the messiah , &c. prophesied of , and promised in the scriptures . the chief priests , the scribes , the pharisees , they were all against christ , and would fain have perswaded the people to have taken their interpretation of the scriptures , and to have pinn'd their faith on their sleeves , and not undertake to judge for themselves in so high and mysterious a point as this , concerning the messiah , was . they would have perswaded them , that this jesus was a very cheat , and that all the things he did , which won their admiration , were wrought by the intimacy he had with , and the power he borrowed from the prince of the devils ; and that the messiah must be quite of another make from this same jesus . now , what work would have been in the world , if none must have read and understood the scriptures in any other sense but what the topping-men , and chief leaders of the jewish church , had assigned ? what contempt do these monopolizers of knowledge express against the people , who would not submit to their determinations ? how angry were they , when any dared to declare how they respected and admired christ ? then came the officers to the chief priests and pharisees , and they said unto them , why have ye not brought him ? the officers answered , never man spake like this man : then answered them the pharisees , are ye also deceived ? have any of the rulers or pharisees believed on him ? but this people who knoweth not the law , are cursed . john 7. 45. to the 50th . if people mean fairly and honestly , why do they desire to have folks bred up in ignorance ? indeed , if the ordinary sort of people be well vers'd in the holy scriptures , it will not be easie to impose upon them . why cannot men , that would be teachers now a days , be as open and plain as the prophets , and as christ , and as his apostles were ? these came not to vent any counterfeit false wares , and therefore they were wiling the people should examine and try what they taught them : they were for the people's reading and searching of the scriptures , and judging of the doctrines which were taught them by those holy scriptures , which had been delivered unto them . they came to deliver people out of darkness , not to keep them in , or lead them unto darkness . and those who are their true successors and followers , will do the like . if men have no notions to scatter about , and perswade people to swallow and submit to , but what are sound , and true , and good , and which are authorised by jesus christ , they will have no occasion to be ashamed or afraid , that people should examine them by the scripture . none flee from the light , but those whose doctrines or practices will not bear the light. christ's doctrines did accord very well with those divine revelations those jews had amongst them : but the unscriptural traditions they had got amongst them , and our saviour's doctrines , could not stand together . to the law , and to the testimony , if they speak not according to this word , it is because there is no light in them . isaiah 8. 20. secondly , those who profess themselves protestants , ought to take care , that they be well fixed and settled in the protestant religion . the apostles often require their followers and disciples , and those they write unto , to stand fast in the faith : 1 cor. 16. 13. and to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints : jude 3. and to strive together for the faith of the gospel : phil. 1. 27. now , by these and the like expressions , which you meet with in the apostolick writing , they plainly , first , warn them of the danger there is , of peoples apostarizing from the true faith and religion of jesus christ , after that they have made a profession of the same . and secondly , excite and stir those up , who make a profession of the true faith , to take care that their minds and hearts may be throughly fixed and settled in the faith , least they should yield and waver , and decline , when storms and tryals shall arise , and their constancy shall be assaulted . and , if there be but too much ground to fear , that many who make a profession of the truth , will apostatize , and forsake it , when they shall be called to bear witness to it , in some instances which are ungrateful to flesh and blood. it highly concerns all , who at present profess true christianity , to look well to it , that they be so established and confirmed in what they profess , that if a day of tryal should come , they may not loose their crown , destroy their souls , or betray the truth . first , those who do profess the true religion , may afterwards apostatize from , and relinquish it . and there is too great occasion to fear , that many , however forward they appear in profession , will do so , should they be tryed in any difficult and beloved instances : i do not mean , that people who have long habituated themselves to profess the christian religion , will easily be brought to an open and avowed renouncing of the name of christianity ; as though none could be justly charged with apostacy from the truth , but those who can vye with julian for impudence , in contemning and trampling under foot the very name and profession of the son of god. the estate of those who proceed so far , is beyond measure dreadful . heb. 6. 4 , 5 , 6. but there are two things , which the scriptures more especially insist on , as imported by people's apostatizing from the true faith , and which , people are generally too prone unto ; and both which are very displeasing unto , and greatly provoking of god. 1. departing from the purity and simplicity of the faith of the gospel , espousing and imbracing , together with those doctrines , and practices which christ hath authorized in his holy scriptures , other opinions and practices , which are destructive of the truth and power of religion . christianity is as really impaired and injured by evil mixtures , as by open professed opposition . the apostacy the apostles spake of , which was to accompany , or rather , constitute that great antichristian state , they foretel , would have such a vast , and large , and durable empire in the christian world , seems plainly to be of this kind . the great fundamental doctrines of christianity should be retained in outward profession , but yet other doctrines should be introduced , and be so vehemently imposed , and insisted on , that thereby the main essential of religion should be slighted , oppressed , and become in a great measure useless . and way has been made for these innovations , by first , forging some gross impostures , and counterfeiting some strange things , to which they have given the name of miracles , and so unwary , ignorant people have been prevailed with to entertain no better than diabolical delusions as divine instructions and commands : very agreeable to what the apostle foretells of antichrist's coming ; after the working of sathan with all power , and signs , and lying wonders : 2 thes . 2. 9. 2. altering the nature and use of many things which were innovated , by the pious antients , without any divine authority , and purely by the conduct of a warm zeal , and a devout intention . had no further progress been made in those instances , than those antients made , little prejudice would thence have happened to religion . but god is so jealous of his own honour , that usually , when people manifest they have an opinion that god hath not carefully enough provided for his own cause , and therefore they will guard and sence , and provide more effectually for it ; he blasts all those devices , and suffers such humane inventions to be occasions of more than ordinary trouble ; and sometimes , to be prosecuted so far , as to make a formal and mortal opposition to the vitals of religion . 3. depressing the offices and devotional duties of religion with unreasonable heaps of outward formalities , and ritual observations ; that so the senses might be superfluously carest ; and by accomodating the matters of religion too much to the rules of carnal policy . by this means , inward seriousness , and the spirituality of religion , have been dispenc't with ; and peoples minds have been rendred lax and vain , aiery and garish . and having been thus inured for some time to these meer externals , which they have taken upon trust , they have at last been so easie , as to content themselves with an implicite faith , and have rather chose to swallow any thing that should be offered them , whole , than put themselves to the trouble to enquire into its nature , rise , and grounds . 4. finding out ways to reconcile what they stile religion , to men's carnal lusts , and natural tempers and constitutions ; devising easier ways ( as they pretend ) to heaven , than any of the saints in former ages , were acquainted with : devising new ways to satisfie for sin , and undertaking to save mens souls after they are dead in sins . hence there is something men call religion , that must certainly please the careless , and ( as some tell us ) as certainly save them . if you are melancholly , and inclined to strictness and corporal mortifications , they will humour you in that ; they can provide you pennances and securities , which shall sufficiently vex and macerate your flesh . if you are soft and tender if you would have a jovial religion , and would allow your selves in wantonness and excess , &c. and yet not miscarry at last , they can fit you with indulgencies and pardons , and will not question to send you safely to heaven , by vertue of the merits and righteousness of some of their antient friends , who never had a being in the world ; or , of others , who tho they might have a being here on earth , in all probability , never got to heaven themselves : i am sure , they never had righteousness enough of their own to carry them to heaven , however it is grown so bulky since they left it behind them , and has crept into the churche's treasury . but the apostle acquaints us , that antichrist will come with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish : 2 thes . 2. 10. s●condly , declining from their love to , and zeal for the faith , growing cold and indifferent concerning the faith ; when people have not that affection and concern for the faith , with which they seemed at first to entertain and welcome it . see rev. 2. 4 , 5. people are too prone thus to apostatize from the true faith , after that they have made a profession of it : and if matters be well considered , there is not much ground to wonder it should be so : for , 1. people do too ordinarily make a profession of the faith , upon unsuitable motives and principles : not because they understand it , and have their consciences convinced of its truth and excellency ; but meerly because it is the fashion and custome of the people where they live , to make such a profession ; or , it is a profession that has got into repute ; or , upon some other such mean and fickle account . men that have no sound principles , will ever be for that profession which is uppermost , and is attended with most pomp and pleasure , &c. christ had followers in abundance , whil'st he fed them with loaves , but how did they fall off , and slink away , when they failed of their expectations . joh. 6. 26. 2. multitudes content themselves with a meer notional knowledge in religion , and take no due care to digest truths , and turn the principles of religion into solid nourishment : now the doctrines of religion , if they do not sink down into our hearts , if they have not a powerful efficacy on our affections , if they do not put us invincibly upon such a course of life , as bears some proportion with their nature and tendency , they have no fast hold on us , they will soon evaporate , we shall easily part with them . luke 6. 49. let the food we eat , be never so good and wholesome for the kind , if we do not digest it , if our stomacks do not turn it into good chyle and nutriment , it will soon become nauseous , and the least provocation will make us vomit it up again . 3. god doth often , in just judgment , leave those to be hurried away by an evil spirit of delusion and impiety , who having long injoyed the means for their instruction and settlement in the true faith , have made no careful improvement of the same , for those ends . god ordinarily suffers such to be led away by sathan and his lying emissaries , into opinions drametrically opposite to the plainest truths , as well as to those vile affections which prompt to all uncleanness , and practices which are inconvenient , even according to the dictates of natural light. such are a ready and self-prepared prey to him , whose coming is after the workings of sathan , &c. 2 thes . 2. 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. 4. over-loading ecclesiastical offices with worldly revenues , temporal power and dignities , hath contributed very much to the prejudice of christianity : too true did that voice prove , this day is poison poured into the church . these things are powerful baits , and strong temptations to ambitious , covetuous , domineering persons . those who have such offices so drest up and beautined , to confer and bestow , need not doubt , but they shall find advocates enough , for their own particular opinions and ways , though never so erroneous . and when errours and superstitions are back't with power , greatness , wealth , &c. oh , what multitudes will they draw after them ! besides , when those who have not a mighty concern for the interests of real religion , are too much advanc't in ecclesiastical affairs , and rais'd above themselves , it too usually falls out , that an arbitrary imperiousness starts up , and prevails , and then things of no great moment , and for which christ and his apostles thought not fit to ingage their authority , or lay any stress of religion on , get into their heads , and must needs be made terms of christian communion , that they may be sure their authority is acknowledged . what contests and divisions have been raised and created by this means ? what heats and animosities have been this way occasioned ? hereby differences have been carried to such heights , that at last religion it self is even lost in the quarrels commenc't about its vestments and trappings . how have people's zeal or fury about things , called indifferent , extirpated or quenched all serious and due concernment for the true interests of religion ! 't is to be feared , that hence there is occasioned an indifferency in the minds of multitudes , touching the great substantials of religion , which doth surpass the indifferency of the things themselves , for which we have so desperately contended . the love of worldly grandure carried demas away from the faith , 2 tim. 4. 10. and over much concernedness for little extra-religious matters , gave the apostle ground to suspect , that those who were so affected , would not be so honest , firm , and faithful to the faith of the gospel , as good christians ought to be : observe how he expostulates with them , and lays down the grounds of his fears touching them . gal. 4. 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. 5. god permits afflictions , persecutions , and sufferings to be brought on them who profess his truth , not only to try the graces of the faithful , and to make their graces appear more illustrious by their eminent exercise ; but that hypocrites and meer formalists , who have no real love for his truths , nor give any hearty assent unto them , may be discovered , and have their disguises taken away . in times of peace and quiet , and whil'st the true religion is on the thriving hand in the world , many pretend to it , who too much resemble erasmus's good christian , who appeared a very zealous professor , he would always have a new testament hanging at his girdle , on one side ; but then he must have a bottle of good sack hanging on the other side . as long as the true faith hath outward honours , preferment , carnal pleasures , and ease accompanying it , it will not want followers and attendants : but when storms and persecutions do arise , and it is separated from these external allurements , they will soon shake hands with religion , and court whatsoever shall be drest up in its former robes . such as espouse the true religion , not for its native excellency , but for its gorgeous attire , and great dowry in this world , will in all probability , when persecutions arise , part with their faith rather than their pleasures , wealth , and ease ; they will sooner throw away their bibles rather than their bottles . 1 joh. 2. 19. mat. 13. 20 , 21. now , if there be such danger of people's apostatizing from the true faith , after they have made a profession of it , it must certainly very importantly concern all who profess the protestant religion , that is , true christianity , as taught and delivered in the holy scriptures , and as purged and reformed by the guidance and direction of this divine rule , from all those errours and corruptions which have , either through people's heedlessness , crept into the profession of christianity , or , through design , have been slily ushered into it , or , by imperiousness , have been forc't upon it : i say , it very highly concerns them to take care , that their minds and hearts be so fixed and settled in the faith of the gospel , that they may never be removed from their constancy , that they may not be as children tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of doctrine , by the slight of men , and cunning craftiness , whereby they lye in wait to deceive . eph. 4. 14. it should therefore be our care to get our minds furnished with clear distinct notions of those truths in which the scriptures do instruct people : it is not enough , that we can talk over , in a general way , the doctrines of religion ; we ought to labour for an explicite knowledge of divine revelations ; so that we may be able to prove and confirm every part of our profession by express and clear scriptures ; 1 pet. 3. 15. the ignorant man will be always wavering . yea , we should strive to get the truths we profese and understand , very strongly indeared unto our hearts , so as to prefer them above all worldly and carnal interests ; and to have our affections , yea , our whole souls brought under their power and influence , their government and soveraignty : our souls should so cleave unto them , they should be so precious and dear unto us , that neither frowns nor smiles , promises nor threats , may make any unhappy impression on us ; but the more blustering any storms may be , which can arise , the deeper root we may take , and grow the more firm and stable . phil. 1. 27 , 28. for , 1. we must expect to meet with tryals and sufferings for the faith of the gospel , which will overwhelm and ruine us , if we be not well provided against them . our passage to glory , is through many tribulations . we have many and various enemies , who will mischief us , and obstruct us all they can , who will do their utmost to prevail with us , both by fair and foul means , to make shipwrack both of faith and a good conscience : we are not only exposed to the malice , rage , and spite of absurd and unreasonable men , but to the craft and fury too of those infernal fiends , who prompt and excite their carnal and earthly tools and instruments , to vent and vomit forth their rancour and spleen against the true faith and its professors . see eph. 6. 12 , 13. 1 pet. 5. 8 , 9. rev. 2. 10. if you be not well fixed in the truth , how can you expect to hold out , when temptations and sufferings shall come ? when you shall be in danger of loosing estate , liberty , all that is dear to you in the world , yea , life it self , for your religion ? did not the house built upon the sand fall , when the rain descended , and the winds blew , and beat upon it ? mat. 7. 26 , 27. 2. apostacy from the true faith is a very hainous provoking sin : is not this to offer god the utmost affront we can , and in effect , to say all manner of evil of him ? do we not hereby charge him with being the greatest impostor that ever was ? is not this to throw the foulest dirt that is possible upon religion ; yea , openly to avow , that sathan and his drudgery are much better , more ligible than christ and his most holy faith ? that god is not to be trusted , and that his religion is not what he represents it ? o what abominable , what innumerable , what monstrous wickednesses are bred in the womb of apostacy ! and what direful consequences and fruits may those expect , who thus affront , and incense the almighty god against themselves ! he will not have a gracious regard for such : he will cast off , and punish severely , all those that cast him off , and deal treacherously with him. the just shall live by faith , but if any man draw back , my soul shall have no pleasure in him . heb. 10. 38. the lord jesus christ will reject them , and be ashamed of them , when he shall appear in all his glory . whosoever shall be ashamed of me , and of my words , in this adulterous and sinful generation of him also shall the son of man be ashamed , when he cometh in the glory of his father , with the holy angels . mark 8. 38. though you set no value on christ's love at present ; and care for no more , but that you may have the countenance of great persons , and injoy the pleasures and wealth of the world ; yet remember , that it will not be long , before ye shall have other apprehensions of things than now you have : it will not be long , before you shall perceive all these things you prefer before the faith of the gospel , to be very empty , and void of all satisfaction , and full of torment and horrour : when christ shall appear in glory , with his holy angels , all these things will fail you : and how you will howl and roar , and complain then ? what tears will you then shed ? how will you curse your apostacy , and all that helpt it forward ? and now , when your case is thus helpless , thus dreadful , and all your comforters are gone , the lord jesus and his mercy will fail you too ; he will send you to them , whose favour you prefer'd before his , who will tremble and quake as much as you ; and to your wealth , which will then disappear ; and to your beloved pleasures , which will then be bitterer than gall and wormwood : you must only expect to behold his frowns , and to feel the terrible discoveries of his insupportable displeasure : you can expect no favour at his hands . see prov. 1. 24. to the end . 2 thes . 1. 7 , 8 , 9. nay , you have no good ground to hope you shall prosper in any of those designs you intend to drive forward by , or under your apostacy . god doth very often notably blast such projects ; he causeth some remarkable and very fatal curse to accompany those who relinquish his cause and truth . what was judas the better for his thirty pieces of silver ? what a sorry plaister was this for a wounded conscience ? what a poor comfort to a justly despairing soul ? what a fearful end have they ordinarily come to , who have forsaken christ and the gospel for preferment , wealth , or any carnal interests ? 3. the more we are confirmed in the faith , the greater measure of inward comsort we may confidently look for , if we should be called to suffer for the truth . god will not leave such comfortless , they shall have experience of his gracious , refreshing presence and supports . the disciples , when publickly disgraced and whipt , they went away rejoycing , that they were counted worthy to suffer for the name of christ . see acts 5. 41. 2 cor. 1. 3 , 4 , 5. 4. you will hereby be in a capacity of doing others eminent service , by your instruction , and counsel , and example . it is a great mercy not to cumber the world , not to live uselessly and unprofitably , to do real good services to people in our generation : nay , more , you will hereby be in a capacity of doing much to retrieve the credit and honour of religion ; which has indeed been horridly betraid , and prostituted by hypocrites , and wicked pretenders to it . 5. the promise of god is only to those who stand fast , who do persevere and overcome . a profession , be it never so good and orthodox for the matter of it , will turn to no good and comfortable account to particular persons , unless they faithfully adhere to , and persist therein . to them who by patient continuance in well doing , seek for glory , honour , immortality , and eternal life . rom. 2. 7. to him than overcometh , will i give to eat of the tree of life , which is in the midst of the paradise of god. rev. 2. 7. rev. 2. 5. he that overcometh shall inherit all things , and i will be his god , and he shall be my son. rev. 21. 7. these , and considerations of the like nature , which will easily occur unto you , should make some impression on you . have you had your bibles so long , and means of instruction , so much above all others , who are of the contrary perswasion ; and what , will you now throw away your bibles , as being imperfect ? will you hood-wink your selves , or be content to be led blindfold , by guides that either cannot , or will not see ? are you weary of the glorious light of the gospel ? what sort of people are they in st. paul's judgment , who dislike the glorious light of the gospel ? 2 cor. 4. 3 , 4. can you now at last be contented with the poor glow-worm light of simple tradition ; or , an uncertain wavering of ignis fatuus , which certainly leads all who foolishly resign up themselves to its conduct , out of the true way into very hazardous inconveniences ? quit you like men , yea , quit you like christians ; labour and strive to get your minds and hearts justly fixed in the religion you profess . be not so soft and easie , be not so foolish and inconsiderable , be not so unreasonable , so distracted , so irreligious , as to suffer your selves to be so frighted out of your religion , or slattered and collogued , cheated , and childishly allured out of it ; nor yet to be so jeared and laught , and lampooned out of it ; and then you 'l be pritty safe : for their arguments and reasonings ( if you are wise ) will never do you hurt . the religion you profess , contains all in it that is necessary , yea , that can be really useful to any man , in order unto his having a safe and sure conduct to heaven ; and , why should any man desire to go further ? none of the apostles , none of the antient martyrs , dared either to die for , or teach any other doctrines than what your religion doth comprize . and what ! will it not content you to keep pace with them ? must you needs exceed and outstrip them ? take need , the more ambitious , proud , and presumptuous you are , the less safe you are . lucifer and his comrades had the most dreadful and unhappiest fall that ever creatures had ; and it may be , to be wise above , or ( if you like the phrase better ) to be religious beyond the scripture , may in the end , prove to have a great affinity with that they were guilty of . and if so , the punishment of that fault , must bear some proportion with the other . i would cherish as much charity , with reference to those who manifest any pious sentiments , in the perswasion contrary to ours , as is possible . but yet i must needs say , that no solid proof hath ever yet been produced , that any persons ever yet suffered death comfortably for any of their peculiar and proper doctrines taken abstractedly from those which we justly profess , and was accepted with god for so doing . but we have instances enough , of those who have joyfully laid down their lives for the doctrines we profess , abstractedly from all those wherein they differ from us ; that is , those which they have added to the scriptures , and the suffering , and bearing witness to the truths we own and profess , have been of great account with god. should the worst you can imagine follow on your firm adhering to the faith you profess , viz. that you shall be persecuted and suffer for it ; yet this should not startle nor discompose you . that is but a sorry religion , that is not worth suffering for . there has been more blood cheerfully parted with , more tortures joyfully endured for the religion you profess , than for any , it may be , for all other causes in the world. if you are called to suffer on this account , your cause is so good , you need not be afraid of any enemies terrours , you have no occasion to be troubled . 1 pet. 3. 14. the comfort is unexpressible , which you may warrantably expect . the holy spirit is promised to be a comforter , more especially , to those who are persecuted , and who suffer for this religion . joh. 16. 7. what glorious rewards are there for you in heaven ? the more like you are to christ in his sufferings , the more you shall resemble him in glory . rom. 8. 17. mat. 5. 11 , 12. alas ! consider matters well , though the worst should come to the worst . shall you loose your estates , your wealth , your houses , your friends , your relations , yea , your lives ? and what then ! what are these to your souls ! what are these to eternal glory ! these are poor , mean , uncertain , perishing things at best these may be taken away from you on other accounts ; you may have all these , and yet no comfort . but you may be exercised , ( will you say ) with cruel usages , with tortures impossible , according to humane judgment , to be born with any patience . be it so , make the worst you can of it , they cannot be answerable , for vehemence and horrour , to the torments in hell ; they cannot lie in the ballance with the glory and joy of heaven . rom. 8. 18. be they never so great , one smile from christ will render you insensible of the pian . how many , upon the racks , and in flames , for this religion , have publickly declared and manifested they felt no pain ? and have you such numerous examples and presidents , take heart then , and go on as they did , joyfully in the strengrh of you god. how many have ventured all , and sustained all , both in former ages , and in this present age , in a neighbouring countrey , with astonishing joy , for this self same religion ? but oh! what will you loose , and what must you suffer , if you wickedly depart from your god , and renounce his truth ? would you be in judas his despair , or sustain the horrour spira was filled with , for worldly favour and preferment ? would you be willing , for ease and pleasure here , to be the object of god's heaviest displeasure for ever ? to be shut out of heaven , to be continually followed with god's curse ? to be a perpetual companion of devils , and the worst sinners ? to lie roaring and howling , to all eternity , in unquenable flames ? in a word , consider how the faith you profess , is the faith which god almighty hath taught and appointed , which the lord jesus hath born witness unto , and sealed with his blood , which the apostles preached to the world , and suffered for ; the faith which has been justified and confirmed by multitudes of most real and undeniable miracles ; a faith that is pure and peaceable , and tends most intirely to propagate and increase all that is truely excellent and praise-worthy amongst men ; a faith which god hath taken care of in all ages of the christian world , and which assures its sincere professors of things incomprehensibly great and glorious hereafter , and fills them with unspeakable peace and comfort at present , amidst all the suffering they can be exposed to , on its account : a faith god hath wonderfully freed from the corruptions which were formerly mixed with it , in these nations ; and for which , he hath often and even miraculously appeared , in discovering and blasting the projects , the designs , and the attempts of its most subtle and unreconcileable enemies : a faith your ancestors , after mature consideration , priz'd above all their worldly interests , and lives : a faith , they took a great deal of care and pains to have transmitted to you pure and undefiled : a faith , which brought with it multitudes of outward blessings ; and which occasioned these nations to be eas'd of a yoke , which all the inhabitants , who had ingenious sense , complained often of , and groaned under : a faith you cannot part with , but in all probability , you will again involve your selves in calamities and miseries , like to those out of which your predecessors strove with all their might to extricate themselves . have you an ambition now , to expose your selves and your posterity to all the mischief and evil , which people of the adverse perswasion , have been known industrious and unwearied to bring upon those they look upon as hereticks ? are you resolved to pull down with your own hands , upon your selves , all the sad and direful plagues which are reserved to be inflicted , in the next world , on them who perfidiously betray the faith of the gospel , and wickedly apostatize from the true religion ? if not , then take care , and look well to your selves , and see that you be fixed and confirmed in the protestant religion . and therefore , 1. be sure you be built upon the true foundation . take heed you profess not the true faith , meerly because it is owned by any society of some particular extrinsical denomination : any particular church may fall . there is a body of men now in the world , who assume to themselves a very glorious title ; and yet , when a just enquiry is made , and the largest allowances charity can prompt to , are yielded them , that society can only pass for a very corrupt part of the christian church : and yet the antient inhabitants of that place where the head of this society hath fixed his see , were a people , in st. paul's time , so hearty in , and true to the doctrines of christ , their faith was spoken of throughout all the world. rom. 1. 8. where are any tracts and footsteps now , of those churches you read of in the revelations ? and yet god never forsaketh any , till they first forsake him . there has been , i fear there is still , altogether a fault amongst us , that we are immoderately concerned for the credit and outward grandure of particular parties ; and christians are respected , not for their being christians , but for their espousing some distinguishing notions and characters of man's devising . i am perswaded , god will utterly overthrow , at least , mightily abase men's affections to , and zeal for all party-making notions amongst christians , before he will raise his church to that prosperous , flourishing state prophesied of , and promised in the scriptures . there must be more love , and charity , and unanimity amongst christians . christianity will endure to the end of the world : but as for all the modes and fashions of man's devising , wherewith any do dress up the profession of christianity , these may all fall to the earth , as the inventers of them have fall'n , or will fall . mat. 16. 18. gal. 6. 15. the true foundation you should be built upon , is that of the apostles and prophets , jesus christ himself being the chief corner-stone . eph. 2. 20. therefore , 2. embrace nothing as an article of faith , or part of religion , but what the holy scriptures are express , or very clear concerning . you have in these scriptures all that is necessary to any man's salvation . 2 tim. 3. 16. 17. joh. 20. 13. believe no man , nor no society of men in these cases , further than the scriptures do warrant what they teach . act. 17. 11. isai . 8. 20. 3. be not extreamly hot and zealous about any thing , but what the purity of faith , and power of godliness are really concerned in . good men and orthodox christians may have different apprehensions about matters of small moment , without much prejudice to their own souls , or the common faith , provided these differences be managed without uncharitableness and unchristian violence : but too much heat and violence about things , diverts from the weighty matters of god's laws , and religion soon sensibly decays . phil. 3. 16. gal. 6. 16. tit. 3. 9. 4. expect and prepare for tryals . christ hath dealt plainly and openly with us : in the world ye shall have troubles . see mat. 16. 24. learn to resign up your selves , and live in expectation of sufferings . read 1 pet. 4. 12 , 13. 5. be earnest in prayer , that your hearts and souls may have an inward , real , spiritual , affectionate sense of the truth and importance of the doctrines of christianity . 1 cor. 2. 12 , 13 , 14. 6. study the holy scriptures diligently , and make them your dayly delight . psal . 1. 2. psal . 119. 97 , 98. 7. make a good improvement of the plain , faithful ministry of the word , whil'st you can injoy it : you know not what times may come . 2 tim. 4. 3 , 4. 8. take heed of self-confidence , and depend wholly on thy saviour . 9. learn to be expert in using every part of the christian armour . eph. 6. 13. &c. 10. watch your selves carefully , and your enemies too . 2 pet. 3. 17. 11. take a due care that your faith may effectually influence you to all holiness of life and conversation . that man is in a great preparation to renounce his faith , that hath prostituted his conscience , and is regardless how he lives . 1 tim. 1. 19. read , consider , and improve what is offered unto you , and the god of all grace , who hath called us to his eternal glory , by christ jesus , after that we have suffered a while , make you perfect , &c. 1 pet. 5. 10. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a28581-e630 per lustra & popinas quotidie sine pudore in aleae lusum , ususque turplssuhos potestatem extratendi animas functo●um ex igne expiatorio profundebant . in aug. thuam . hist . l. p. 13. vide mezenrah ; ann. 1517. sleid. com. lib. 1. an. 15. qnicunque non innititur doctrinae romanae ecclesie , ac romani pontificis tam quam regulae fidei infallibili , aqua etiam sacra scriptura ●obur trabit & authoritatem , est haeriticus . mouns . clauddef of the reformation , part 3d. m. clauddes . of the reform . part 3d. pag , 51. &c. vnde protestantium nomen quod ad omnes postea , qui eorum quae perperum in religionem invecta sunt , emendationem amplecti se professi sunt , obitque ab ecclesia romana defecere , dimanavit . thuan . hist . lib. 1. p. 26. nomen per contemptum ab adversariis ob protestationem spirae impositum . d. prideaux lect. 9. de visibil . eccles . chilling worth 's safe way to salvation . pag. 375. catholick ballance . pag. 19. a manifest touching m.w.f. aversion from the protestant congregation and his conversion to the catholique church presented to the right wor. ll [sic] sir a.p. his much honoured father, and his other best friends, for their better satisfaction and his owne iustification. medical women's federation (great britain) this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a56711 of text r218671 in the english short title catalog (wing p85a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 123 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 49 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a56711 wing p85a estc r218671 99830243 99830243 34693 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a56711) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 34693) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2035:11) a manifest touching m.w.f. aversion from the protestant congregation and his conversion to the catholique church presented to the right wor. ll [sic] sir a.p. his much honoured father, and his other best friends, for their better satisfaction and his owne iustification. medical women's federation (great britain) h. p. [16], 77, [1] p. s.n.], [s.l. : permissu superiorum anno 1650. dedication signed: h.p. includes errata. the "f" in the author's initials on title page has been altered in ink to a "p". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng catholic church -early works to 1800. protestantism -controversial literature -early works to 1800. catholic converts -early works to 1800. a56711 r218671 (wing p85a). civilwar no a manifest touching m.w.f. aversion from the protestant congregation. and his conversion to the catholique church presented to the right wor m. w. f 1650 21439 5 0 0 0 0 0 2 b the rate of 2 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-12 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-12 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-02 john latta sampled and proofread 2008-02 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a manifest tovching m. w. f. aversion from the protestant congregation . and his conversion to the catholique church presented to the right wor. ll sir a. p. his much honoured father , and his other best friends , for their better satisfaction and his owne iustification . viam iniquitatis amoue à me : & de lege tua miserere mei . viam veritatis elegi : iudicia tua non oblitus . psal. 118. permissv svperiorvm anno 1650. to his honorable deare vncle s. ir h. w. baronette &c. dominus det vobis suam pacem . sir . hauing obtained à copy of my deare deceased brother williams manifest which in his life was presēted vnto my father , i make bold to addresse it vnto you in print , as more legible and vsefull , to fulfill and execute the will of my brother , who was in his life most entirely deuoted to you , and most singularly zealous of your souls salvation : which according as my bounden duty requires i equally tender and affect . i can not tell what acceptance it may relish with you , in respect of your olde age ; yet sure i am , were you trauelling vnto hierusalem , and should be informed by him or me , though inferiour in years , of the great dangers assuredly you would fall into , if you held on in the new way you had commenced your iourney in , doubtlesse you would take it maruelous kindly of vs , and as an argument of our true respectfull loue towards you , that by our notice you were prevented from falling in to the hands of bloodsucking enimies , or being swalowed vp in some vnknowne gulfe in your new passage . this is now you case : you are traueling in your resolution to the beauenly hierusalem : but vnder fauour and without offence , giue me leaue to tell you , that if you proceede in this new way , and new religion you are in , the perills are unspeakably great , for that all going and holding this new way ar robbed : not of their temporall wealth , nor of their temporall life depriued by drowning , but by à diabolicall crew and an infernall gulfe spoiled of their sowles , to their owne irreparable dammage , and the opprobrious disgrace of christ most pretious blood spilt in vaine for them . and howbeit this new way you walke in , may peradnenture seeme to you to be right and secure ; yet vndoutedly except you turne out of it , in the end it will leade you to endlesse perdition . you can not be ignorant , that the origine of this new way , and occasion of putting our poore distressed country-men out of the old approued path and good way , in which our auncestours walking , securely arriued to heaven ▪ was the sacrilegious auarice and insatiable lust of king henry the eight ( in whom alone , not i , but , sir walter raulie affirmes , all the markes of à tyrāt might be found in case they were lost ) who as all know that are versant in the hictory and tradition of our nation , withdrew himsefe and the realme from the obeyssanee of the catholique church , the old and only assured way to saluation . deus vnus est , & christus vnus , & vna ecclesia & cathedravna super petram , domini voce fundata saith s. cyprian l. 1. epist. 8. this henry the eight because the bishop of rome s. peters successour and christs viccar on earth would not dispensc with him , to put à way his lawfull wife queene catherine of spaine of blessed memory : he vsurped and tooke vpon him to be head of the english church , and put àway most iniuriously his queene . which vnheard of arrogancy of his vsurped spirituall supremacy how god hath punished in his successours , is too too sad , and too too fresh to rehearse . patres nostri peccauerunt & nos portauimus iniquitates eorum , if god hath not his due in his vicegerent of his church , it is no wonder that caesar wbo by the grace and fauour of god temporaly gouerneth , hath not his due obedience from his subiects , and that they vsurpe à power ouer him : in quo quis peccat in hoc punietur . and seeing so much innocent blood of catholiques haue beene spilt , and so many priests slaine , as prophets sent to reclaime her , i doe not wonder that god after so long à patient frustrated expectation of our countrys penance and retourne , doth now bring forth the yron rod of the sword , and chastise the kingdome with so much effusion of blood to auenge the contempt of his house the catholique church , the innocent members and pastors put to death , and that the bishops and others who so much striued to put down catholique religion , should now , by the iust iudgments of god , be pulled downe , and haue their church and religion destroyed by themselues . i will set the aegyptians against the aegyptians and the brethren shall fight against the brethren esay 19. vaegenti peccatrici , woe woe to à sinfull nation , which by its hainous schisme and heresy hath forsaken god ; teaching and speaking in his catholique church : which hath blasphemed holy israel , and followed its owne giddy priuate spirit which seeth nothing aright : where euery one at his pleasure , carues & cut to himselfe à religion out of the scriptures interpreted according to their owne priuate and vnwarranted spirits : as if all were apostles , all prophets , all doctours all pastours contrary to the ecclesiasticall order and hierarchy instituted by christ our sauiour ; as witnesses the apostle s. paul . 1. ad cor 12. but alas will our poore distressed country neuer rise and retourne againe to her mother the catholique church , that shee may haue accesse to god as à father ? nunquid qui cadit non resurget & qui auersus est non reuertetur , quare ergo auersus est populus iste in hierusalem , auersione contentiosa , apprehenderunt mendacium & noluerunt reuerti ? &c. nullus est qui agat poenitentiam super peccato suo dicens quid feci &c. the turtle doue , the swalow , the storke haue obserued the time of their comeing , but my people ( saith god by his prophet ) haue not knowne the iudgment of the lord . hier. 8. and for as much as our poore countrymen will not reflect vpon the manifest iudgments of god vpon the kingdome for its reuolt by schisme and heresy from the catholique church : therfore is shee become desolate desolatione desolata est omnis terra quia non est qui recogitet corde . hieri . 12. wherfore , deare sir , to preuent the maine misery of miseries , since god of his immense clemency hath lent you space to returne ( whilest thousands , and thousands in these calamities of our nation are ingulfed in the bottomlesse pitt of hell ) promptly obey the voice of god by the prementioned prophet heremie aske of the old paths which is the good way , and walke in it , and you shall finde refreshing for your soules . cap. 6. v. 16. but aske timely with all possible diligence , breaking with all worldly considerations of honour , riches , or pleasures , for the loue of sweet iesus , who not only endured for your sake all contradictions and opprobrious disgraces , but layd out all he was worth , euery droppe of blood , yea his most pretious life , that you might liue for euer in eternall glorie , in neuer ending pleasures , and the rich fruition and possession of his immense maiesty , the all good , the supreame good , and the soueraigne sole good . let not momentary pleasure procure you an everlasting paeine , nor let á short sufferance depriue you of an infinite reward . breuis voluptas , sempiterna poena : modica passio , infinita gloria , saith the seraphicall father saint francis . therefore whilest you haue time work well for your soule , the one thing which is necessary : differre not so consequent an affaire , least forgetting god in your life , he forsake you in your death bedde , according to that dreadfull saying of s. augustine . hac animaduersione percutitur peccator , vt moriens obliuiscatur sui , qui dum viueret oblitus est dei . aske then i beseech you timely of the old paths : which is the good way , and walke in it , and you shall finde refreshing for your soule , these old paths , which is the good way in which all the godly and holy persons walked to the heauenly hierusalem , is the infallible iudgment of the supreame pastours and gouenours of gods church , which they followed as the guide of faith and necessary way of salvation . in the old law it was strictly commaunded by almighty god . exod 17. insomuch as whosoeuer should be so proud , as that he would not obey the order and commaund of the cheife priest , who was the iudge in ecclesiasticall affaires , he was to die : this also in the beginning and foundation of the new law our b. sauiour so strictly commaunded as he that would not obediently harken to the church , he was to be reputed ( not as one capable of life euerlasting ) but as à beathen and publicane , that is , à person out of the state of saluation . this was the way s. austen ( whom euen the protestants affirme to haue beene à most excellent wittnes of antiquity , as liuing about the primitiue times of christs church ) tooke to resolue himselfe infallibly in doubts of religion , as is to be seene in diuers places of his diuine workes ; finally this also is the finall and continuall way in all ages since , all orthodoxe professours haue folowed in the determination of controuersies of faith , as is manifest by the perusall of the ecclesiasticall records . this way did my deceased brother take to resolue himselfe , employing all his cares to finde out the true church of christ , that is the catholique church : which the apostles , in their creed , only teach vs to belieue at all times , it being true at all times , to say , i beleeue in the holy ghost , the holy catholique church : and to rest himsefe touching all points of faith in her iudgmēt , she being infallible therin , as perpetually being taught by the holy ghost all truth and no errour . he sought humbly with perseuerance , and through gods mercifull goodnes found it out'seeke also and you shall finde . shall you vouchsafe to peruse impartially this his manifest i am confident it will contribute much direction to the knowledge and embracement therof , to the glory of god , the ioy of the angells and heauenly saints , the saluatiō of your soule and comfort of your best friends , among whom he is one , who will not cease to pray our blessed lord and sauiour , that he will illuminate the darknes of yours , my other friends , and countrymens soules , that he will giue you à true faith , an assured hope , à perfect charity ; and endue you with the knowledge of him : that vnited to the catholique church , in all things all manner of wayes , you may accomplish his holy pleasure in this life , and in the next , enioying him with all the saints , you may sing his mercies for euer . which is , and shall be the dayly praier of him , who humbly begging that the necessary discharge of his bounden duty for your soules good , may finde pardon for his freedome , remaines euer as he professeth and subscribeth . on the vigill of all saints . 1650. honorable deare sir . your most dutifull and affectionate poore nephew . h. p. to the reader . allthovgh to some it may seeme superfluous to print any thing in this nature , for any of our countrymen , for that the present confusion and destruction of the english church is manifest to all , who know what belongeth either to the hierarchie , doctrine or discipline thereof , by which it is evident their religion was neuer scripturall , but parlamentary , founded on the changeable vote of à maior parte ; yet to satisfy the will of the dead , i haue done it , to the end it may the more easilie be communicated to all his protestant friends , as it vvas by him intended . some happily might haue expected in the publication , i vvould haue diuided it into certaine chapters , and in the end of them , according as occasion required , haue confirmed vvhat therein is said or supposed , vvith some additions . but i am as vvell acquainted vvith the humour of the times , vvhich loatheth prolix tracts , as i am vvith the multiplicity of mine ovvne occasiōs , vvhich vvill not permit any such fraternall office : besides that it is my intention only to print it according to the copy of the originall , vvhich is in the hand of à protestant friēd vvho is à man of qualitie . i could truly haue vvished that i had had the benefit of those protestant books , he perused in order to this manifest , that i might haue put the forme and yeare of the editions of these authours he cites , in regard the seuerall editions and change of the forme in the editions , sometimes in quartò : another time in folio , or octauo , make the citations not so easilie to be found out as othervvise : besides many enlargements in the latter editions , vvhich disorders the text of the former ; yet this in part is obserued by the authour . in the 14. page i knovv not hovv the quotations of m. bruges , broughton and d. whitaker vvere omitted : but knovv that m. bruges vvordes are in his 6. section of his apologie , and m. broughton in his , aduertisment to the bishops . m. whitakers in his ansvver to m. william reinolds pag. 225. as for the faults escaped in the printing , i must in the printers behalfe , craue thy charity to couer his defects , for that he vvas à stranger to our language ; to say nothing of the ill caracter of the manuscript , vvhich for the orthographie and mispointing must pleade his pardon : for vvhat is othervvise materiall , i haue represented vvith the correction , leauing the rest to thy charity , and recommending thee to svveet iesvs our blessed sauiours fauorable mercy and protection . errata . pag 3. linea 17. in steed of their read your . p. 4. l. 11. ouer vvauetring . ouervveening . p. 16. this . his p. 12. & alibi infalloble . infallible p. 22. & 23. & 31. insepable . inseparable p. 27. champpon . champion p. 38. conditions . traditions p. 30. praeches . preachers p. 37. tho . the p. 39. mose . moyses . p. 4. antinomay . antinomians p. 50. alleagtion . allegation p. 54. & 58. maine . many p. 62. heathers heathens ibid : put out math. 28. p. 63. captiuite . captiuate ibid. madmes . madnesse the contents . the cause of vvriting this manifest . pag. 1. the reall motiues of making his search into matters of religion . p. 2. a fitt disposition for the finding out the truth of religion . p. 4. the false deating of protestant vvriters acknovvledged by themselues . p. 6. the blasphemous absurdities of protestants auouching the church to haue perished . p. 7 the vnion of sectaries vvhich principally consistes in their common conspiracy against the romane and catholique church . vvhat it argues p. 8. the reason vvhy none vvith à safe conscience can adheare to the english church . p 9. the guile full deceipt of heritickes pretending to flie to the scripture . p. 10. vvhether protestants haue infallibly any true scripture to dispute out of , or to build their faith on . from the 10. to the 13. theire falsifying the scriptures and vnconscionable dealing in commending them to the people , for the pure vvord of god . p. 14. that protestants can not proue any thing assuredly out of scripture . p. 16. the cunning of heretickes in affirming the church can erre , & that they take avvay all meanes of ending controuersies in religion . p. 17. the manifold old heresies protestants haue renevved . p. 18. to the 20. their contempt of the churches authority makes them guilty of antichristian pride . p. 20. vvhat effect the consideration of the prementioned absurdities vvrought . p. 21. the perpetuall visibility or succession of pastours as the marke of christes church ( vvhich is but one ) established . p. 22. of vvhich also p. 66. &c. that the fathers fled therevnto to confute heretikes . p. 23. to 26. proued . the argument demonstrating that only the romane church is christs true church founded on the inseparable marks therof . p. 26. protestants confessions that their church vvas not in the ages before luther , but that truth was vnknovvne an vniuersall apostacy ouer spreading the vvorld till his coming . p. 27. to 31. the consequence dravvn from their style of reformed church incompatible in points of faith vvith christs true church . p. 30. their euasions of the argument confuted . p. 31. a triall by expresse scripture of the controuerted points of religion . p. 32. to 38. protestants impious dealing vvith scriptures . p. 39. to 43. a triall by the auncient fathers according to protestants ovvne confessions p. 44. the deepe hypocrisy of ievvel the english protestants grand champion in appealing to the fathers . p. 47. the vanity also of witthaker therin p. 48. also vvillets diabolicall dissimulation in that point . p. 49. the exeerable blasphemy vvhich folovveth from protestāts pretēded reformation of the church . p. 51. a further prosecution of the argument against other sectes . p. 53. protestants confessions in behalfe of the romane church that she vvas the true church and that she never fell . p. 55. to 61. the issue or result of the former discourse , and the authours resolution . p. 61. 62. &c. an ansvver to the obiection of differring his conuersion to the romane church . p. 72. the fathers testimonies of her . p. 68. &c. the conclusion and reason vvhy he so much vseth the protestants confessions and testimonies . p. 75. m. w. p. manifeste to his friends in ivstification of his abandoning the english church and becoming catholique . beinge not ignorant , but very sensible how falsely my brother is voyced to haue seduced me ( such is theire phrase they please to vse ) to become catholique ; and againe how temerariously , noe lesse vniustly my selfe is accused of levitie and inconstancy for abandoninge the protestant reformed congregation : i haue therfore thought it à very behouefull part to declare my selfe breifly by this ensueinge manifest , as well to clere my brother , as to render your selfe , an dmy other best freinds some satisfactory accoumpt in iustification of myne owne action . first then , although my brother doe much ioy with the angells for my conversion ( as i doubt not but all godly people doe ) and might much more haue gloryed , had he been the instrument or agent therof ; yet vpon my resolution , i assure yow , he was soe great à stranger unto it , as that he knew me not to be otherwise then à protestāt , before that some weeks after my reconsiliation to the church of christ , i tould him i was à catholique . yea soe farr was he from conceavinge any hopes that way , as that he ingeniously and playnly tould me : that i was one of the prophanest spiritts that ever he heard speake against his religion . how then was he an actor in my conversion to the catholique church , that was not onely such à stranger to it , but allso in à manner dispayringe therof . as concerninge the obiected levity : i sincerly protest it was the due consideration of the vanityes of these transitory affayrs , the vncertaynty of this present life , the innumerable daingers that therin occurre , the dreadfull iudgement that i was to vndergoe , and the fynall sentence of eternall ioye , or misery , never dyeing but everlastinge , wich i was to receive : these important poynts ( i say ) seriously pondered , and not levity , occasioned my search into matters of religion , on the verity or falsety wherof accordingly depends the salvation or damnation of every mans soule : which is the vnum necessarium , ( to vse the gospell phrase ) that aboue all affaires is to be regarded , what exchange will à man make for his soule ? verily by the irrefragable testimony of our sauiour , if he gaynes the whole world he profitts nothinge if he suffer damage therof ; vnderstand yee these things that forgett god , whilst peradvēture ther will not be any to redeeme yow . ps. 49. oh all yee who are enthraled by the loue of perissinge riches , temporall honnors , carnall freinds , and wordly respects ; who by their actions and deeds deny god , nothinge fearinge the fynall sentence of eternall woe , or wellfare ! oh all yee ( i say ) tymely consider and take to hart this most consequent affaire ; least hereafter when it will be too late , ther wil be none to releive or succor you ; and therfore lett vs while wee haue tyme , worke good for our soules : let vs now ( i say ) while it is a nunc acceptabile , seeke our lorde while he may be fownd , and be prepared to ascertayne our selues in the knowledge and embracement of the one catholique church , out of which ther is noe salvation ; least when wee little thinke of it , the sonne of man will come to call vs to à dreadfull accoumpt , and finde vs et minus habentes , & ad recte credendum tardos : and forasmuch as that in the inquest after soe weightye an argument , ther can be noe worse preparatiue disposition , and more disadvantagious to the findinge out of the soule savinge truth , then to haue aforehand an over wayueringe conceipt of the one syde , and to be prepossest by preiudicate opinion of the other part , i was resolued vtterly to divest my selfe of the passions of loue or hatred towards eyther syde ; and dilligently with the impartiall eye of charity , to looke into the principales of both catholique and protestant religion , and seeinge fayth is à fupernaturall guifte descendinge from the father of light , and the goodnes of the allmighty of his parte is such , that he would haue all saved , and forsaketh none that cordially , humbly , and perseverantly seeke him ; it was daylye my earnest and humble petition to him , soe to illumenate me , that if i were in the right , i might be confirmed therin , if not to state me in that church which is the pillar and foundation of truth : assureing my selfe that in such à disposition and resignation of my selfe into the hands of god , i should never be confounded , but secured : accordinge to that of the royall prophet hee that dwelleth in the aide of the heighest , shall abyde in the protectiō of the god of heaven : and therfore freely excite vs with an accedite ad deum & illuminamini & facies vestrae non confundentur ; psal. 33. v. 6. now then to the eye of the matter amongst many other motiues which warrants my aversion from the englishe congregation , to omitt the many absurdityes and daingerous consequences of protestants , iustification by fayth onely , the impossibility of gods comaundements : the blemishinge the best works with sinne ; their impious impugnation and hatred to gods dearly beloved freinds , the heavenly saynts , the negation of frewill , the neglect of the sacrament of pennance , and the penitentiall acts : ( vzt ) humble confession , harty contrition , and effectuall satisfaction , the fcoffinge at fasts , corporall mortifications : and such lyke doctrynes , of theirs tendinge to vitious liberty of lyfe : as allsoe the manifould deceipts , falsifications , and impostures protestant wrighters doe practice to support their religion , of whom sir edwin sandes an eminent man amongst protestants in his relation of matters of religion pronounceth these words . the protestant writers in relation of things , haue abused this present age , and preiudiced posteritye . loue and dislyke haue soe dazelled their eyes , that they cannot be beleiued : agreeable to which is the confession of that learned , and ingenious protestant zantius in his 10. epist. to strumus in the end of the 7. booke , and 8. of his missellans : wher he vttereth these words of the proceedings of protestante wrighters , doctors and pillars of the reformed church : the state of the question that it may not be vnderstood , wee often with sett purpose ouerclowde with darknes : things which are manifest wee impudently denye , things false without shame wee auouch . things playeinly impyons wee propose as first principalls of fayth : things orthodoxal wee condemne of harisye ; scripture at our pleasure wee detort to our dreames &c. to omitt i saye the prementioned motiues with many more which exceedingly averteth me from the protestant congregation ; the prime motiues , which warrante my aversion from protestants , are for that not onely i haue ofen heard them averre that the church of christ might erre in matters of fayth : and read their many testimonyes that it hadd erred , made an vniversall apostasye , and that for à longe space truth was vnknowne , before that martin luther an apostata , both from the holy order of s. augustins eremitticall fryers ; and the catholique church , became à new apostle to them , whom they tearme à man sent from god , to illuminate the world , another elias : first apostle of the pure refined gospell ; the father of protestants , and reformer , which restored the decayed church of christ to the primitiue modell which is most blasphemous , contrary to the predictions of the auncient . ( note . ) prophetts , contrary to the promises made by god and christ touchinge the perpetuall existence and assistance of his church : yea distructiue of christ himselfe : the new testament : the creed of the apostles , and exceedingly strengthennige and advantaginge the perverse sinagogue of the iewes , as here after in place convenyent i will further declare , not onely ( i saye ) this : which principally moveth me aboue all ; but allsoe that i finde in the 39. articles of the publique confession of the fayth and religion of english protestants , that particuler churches , as namely ierusalem , antioch &c. might as well erre in matter of fayth , as in livinge and ceremonyes : now seeinge in reallitye , the englishe reformed congregation is but à particuler church : not onely for place , but for that it is never able to demonstrate that any other congregation of men in the vniversall world , eyther before luther or since luther , ever had communion with them in the 39. articles which is the propper essence of our englisse protestant religion ( note . ) howbeit by the way i doe grāt , that as ther are many falsityes howsoever different compared to each other , yet all are against one truth , soe lykewise all sects , that formerly were , and now are , as protestants , anabaptists , puritanes , brownists , sacramentaryes , hugonotes , arminians , gomorists , sosinians , semilutherans , &c. howsoever they iarr and impugne one another in many and werghty controuersies of fayth , as appeare by their innumerable bookes eagerly writt against one another : yet in this one thinge they accord by common vnion , or rather conspire , ( to witt ) against the roman church , which clerely discovereth it to be the true church of christ , were all catholiques silent in her behalfe : if then the english congregation be but à particular church ; for that it wants communion with the christian world in the 39. articles of their religion , consequently by her owne acknowledgment shee may erre in matters of fayth . which beinge soe , what infallable assurance generally i pray yow can the mēbers of such à church haue for their salvation ? seeinge accordinge to the testimony of holy witt it is impossible to please god without fayth : ( wz●t ) orthodoxall , much lesse to inioy him , beinge then that the certaynety of the salvation of the churches members necessarily dependes on the certaynty of à true fayth , without which they cannot please god , noe members that really tenders their soules salvation can with à secure conscience followe or haue communion with such à church , which by her owne confession is lyable to erre in fayth : which is further thus demonstrated : for eyther such à one followeth his whole churches authority and doctrine , or he dissents from it ? if he follow his church and generall doctrine of his pastors and teachers , then hath he noe certaynty or securitie , seeinge she is subiect to erre in matters of fayth , accordnge to his owne confession : if he dissents from her , then is he more perplexed and endaingered , for if his whole church be lyable to erre in matters of fayth , how much more any private member therof ; and indeed it were intollerable pride for any inferior member to arrogate without showinge anye divyne warrant , such à privilidge of not erringe in fayth , which his whole church , as he supposed ( accordinge to his owne confession ) doth not participate . now to come to the pretended foundation of protestant religion , which is vsually to all other heretickes , the more colorably to disguise their errors , imitatinge the divells transformation into an angell of light , and vsurpation of that it is written , i meane the byble , which they soe much appeale too , though with as little reason as ever auy sect ; for if these plaintiffes that accuse the roman church of error , superstition , noveltye and idolatrie , be vrged to produce any playne place of holy writt to proue their accusation , for example sake : wher in holy writt it is syad that gods commaundements are impossible to be kept ? or where in holy writt ther is any prohibition to craue the assistance of the heavenly saints to ioyne their prayers with ours to our lorde iesus christ , that wee may be made worthie of this promises ? &c. the whole pack of them are not able to produce not soe much as one expresse text to that purpose but givinge slipp to the demaund in question , they fly to bye difficultyes , fabulous , or impertinent narrations , relatinge many tales of cockes and bulles , of this pope and that pope , of this bissopp or that fryer , soe destitute are they of the ayde of holy writt which vaynely and frequently they pretend , soe that the sayeinge of the holy prophet is well verifyed in them , the vngodly haue tould me their fables , but not as thy lawe , ps. 118. but wheter haue these frivolous impertinences of protestants wrested my discourse ? to retorne then to the byble , on which solye they pretend to build all their fayth , although it be not controuerted betuene catholiques and protestants , or any other nomynated christians : whether god hath any worde written which is infallable , vsually called the holy scripture ? as it is one thinge to question , whether ther be à kinge of spayne , and another thing wether phillip , or ferdinando be the kinge therof ? for that though the first ( to witt ) that ther is à kinge of spayne be most certayne ; yet the latter may be debated , which is the lawfull true kinge ( vzt ) ferdinando , or phillip ; soe though it be most certayne that there is à written worde of god infallable : yet iustly may it be questioned whether that booke which protestants haue and call the byble be the holy scripture or noe : for ( as the learned doe obserue ) in the scriptures three thinges are to be consydered , first the cannon or catologue of divyne bookes ; secondly the translation ; and thirdly the sence which is the soule of the letter : now then i demaund of protestants what infallible assurance they haue that the bookes which be in their cannon , be onely divyne ? and those which they reiect ( as apocripha ) be really such : will yow saye with luther , and with other protestants as whitakre , and doue , that yow received them from the roman catholique church ; then it followeth if her authoritye who yow credit therin be infallible , yow are allsoe bound to stande to her worde in other poynts of religion : for if she be infallible ( as she must ) if yow haue any infallible assurance that the scriptures yow received from her be really divyne in à matter soe fundamentell , much more is she to be credited in other poynts , as namely concerninge the true interpretation therof &c. secondly out of this answer it followeth , that the roman church cannot be antichristian ( as some protestants vaynly pretend ) for it cannot stand that they should preserue the scriptures for soe many ages , wherin yow pretend your church was vnknowne and latent : for then may israell be fownd in babilon , and participation bebetwene christ and belial : and she who is falsehood it selfe , be , by your owne inference , the pillar and foundation of truth ; to be shorte then , must the whore of the apochalips ( thus is antichrist become christ servante and best supporter ) keep safe those recordes wherby those many hundred thowsonds of christ virgins make their clayme to the inestimable reward alloted for their vowe of chastitye : as easily wee may beleiue , that the arke , and the idoll dagon may be placed together . but indeed though yow haue the roman churches warrant , that those bookes that yow admitt as canonicall to be divyne : yet never did the roman church warrant or assure yow that onely those bookes placed in your cannon , be divyne , and the rest which yow reiect , to be apochripha : it resteth then that the greatest assurance yow haue is the authority of your owne church , which confessedly is lyable to error what infallible assurance haue protestants of the purity and incorruption of their translation : especially seeinge many of their brethren hardly censure it : how shall i approue ( sayth m. burges ) vnder my hand à translation which hath many omissions , many additions , which sometymes obscureth , sometymes perverteth the sence , beinge sometymes senceles , sometymes contrarye : m. bronghton the great hebritian thus sayth , the publique translation of the scripture in english is such , as it perverteth the text of the old testament in eight hundred forty and eight places : and it causeth millions of millions to reiect the new testament , and to runne into eternall flames : and to omitt how bishopp tunstall noated two thowsand corruptions of the bible in tindalls translation , and allsoe how the remists noated two hundred and tenn corruptions of the new testament out of greeke , which protestants pretended to translate , not chardginge them with an infynite number of their corruptiōs repugnant to the auncyent authenticke lattin , to omitt ( i saye ) these , and many other catholique observations for which they iustly except against the english bybles ; i add this cōfessiō of the famous protestant , d. whitakre who though favouringe the englishe trāslation of the bible , as much as possible he might , yet thus he confesseth , i haue not sayd otherwise but that somethings in the englishe translation might be amended ; now what infallible assurance ( i saye ) haue they to warrant their translation as incorrupt , seeinge the greatest warrant they haue for it is the authority of their church , which by their confession may erre , and with what conscience can they commend vnto the people their english byble thus corrupted for the pure word of god : ( note . ) againe what infallible assurance haue they of the sence which is the life of the letter , ( to witt ) that their expositions be the true meaninge of the holy ghost ; but the authority of their church , which by their owne confession is subiect to erre ? on the contrarye what infallible assurance haue they that the catholiques cannon , translation , and exposition of the byble are not orthodoxe , but the authority of their errable church . ( note . ) now thē if fayth be an infallible knowledge , ( for by falliable and errable doctrine it is impossible to be saued ) can anye one with à safe conscience build all his fayth vpon such à byble whose cannon , translation , and interpretation hath noe infallible assurance ; and in this i was infinitely confirmed when afterward i read in m. r shillinghworths booke , approued by three oxford doctors as conformable to the doctrine of the church of england , ( vzt , ) that ther was noe infallible certaynety to be assured that the scriptures were really gods worde . which in effect is to suye , that protestants who pretend to beleiue nothinge but that which is contayned in scriptures haue noe infallible assurance , whether their congregation be truely faythfull christiains or no . moreover i demaund what certayne warrant protestant ministers and teachers haue of any lawfull ordination or vocation for their pretensiue reformation , and departure from the roman church ; with whom sometyme their sect-masters were vnyted in communyon of fayth : but their owne errable authoritye ? and consequently seinge their church can erre , how can protestants be assured that their church doth not erre in condemninge the roman church of superstition ? or how can the vulgar be sure they are taught the truth , when their teachers themselues confesse that their church and all their pastors may lye : in à word noe protestant can produce any prooffe on t of scriptures in his owne defence , or impugnation of catholique religion , but it is glossed or expounded ( litterallie or misticallie ) eyther by his church , or his owne private spiritt ? if by his church , what certaynty or security , when confessedlie she may erre : if by his private spiritt , much lesse is he free from error : and indeed by how much the more i heare and see protestants amayne striue to maintayne , that the church may erre in matters of fayth , it renders me more averse from them , and iustly to suspect their religion , for that they seeme to be heires of vnworthie progenitors ; ( to witt ) of the arians who taught all counsells to be subject to error ; the hereticall donatists who condemned the whole church of error as lykewise of the wiklefians , and waldenses : and would yow know the fundamentall reason of this their assertion : truely ther is noe other then that by disgraceinge the churches authoritie whith errability their doctrine might be exempted from the note of heresie , and themselues avoyd the tytle of hereticks , for if the church could erre in the determynation of controuersies of religion , why might not the decrees of the church in condemninge of hereticks be called in question , and soe in fine ther would remayne noe meanes to know who are hereticks , for if yow goe to the scripture which they whith great forwardnes will alledge , and seclude the churches exposition of the true sence , they can never be convinced , but will allsoe easilye elude whatsoever text can be brought against them as long as themselues be iudges of the controversie and sense . and whem i consider the many doctrines renewed by protestants which formerly haue been condemned by the church as hereticall noveltyes cōtrary to the fayth generally and aunciently professed , how can i againe imagine otherwise , then that they maintayne this dangerous and absurd position of the churches errabilitie : for noe other end , then that their doctrine might be the betther freed from the censure of heresies : for what , is not the denyinge of mans frewill the heresie of simon magus ? is not the affirmeinge that distinction and order ought not to be observed in the church of god , the heresie of the prepusians ? is not the denyinge that all synnes are forgiuen by the sacrament of pennance , the heresie of the nouatians ? is not denyinge of the water of baptisme , to availe any thinge to our salvation one of the heresies of the mamkeans ? is not the denyinge to offer sacrifice for the dead , ād that ther is noe difference betwene à bissopp and à simple preist , and that the fasting dayes of the church ought not to be kept , the heresies of aeriaus : is not the affirmation that by fayth onely , men maye obtayne life everlastinge the heresie of the eunomians ? is not the theachinge that infants may be saued without baptisme one of the heresyes of the pelagians ? is not the theachinge marryage to be as acceptable to god , as virginitie , and that it is lawful for nonnes and monkes to marry the heresies of iouinian ? is not the denyinge the intercession of saints , and the honoringe of the martyrs reliques the heresies of vigilantius ? is not the breaking downe the images of our lorde iesus and of his saints the iconomachians heresie ? is not the denyinge of the body of our lorde iesus to be really present in the sacrament of the alter , the heresie of beringarius ? in à worde to omitte many other renewed heresies of the albigenses , waldenses wicklifts , hussitts and other detestable hereticks many yeares agoe condemned by the church of god , is not the denyall of the possibility of gods comaundements condemned , ( as the famous and auncient doctors , s. ierome , & s. augustin , witnes : ) condemned ( i saye in certayne ould hereticks yea verilie . what marvill then is it , that when they see their doctrine condemned of hereticall novelty if they contemne the churches authority in generall counsells , and reiect the auncient fathers : as patrons of papistrie : ( note ) what marvill i saye seeinge in these they finde their condemnation in most articles , now in contestation if they affirme the churches errabilitie in matters of fayth : true it is as s. paul sayes , that an heretick is condemned by his owne iudgment seeinge he disclaymes from the authority of gods churchs which is the pillar and foundation of truth : and betrampleth the pastors and doctors , lights of the church , in which he manifestly preferreth himselfe before the holy ghost the ruler and director of the church . accordinge to christ infallible promise ( note ) and what is this else but to extoll himselfe aboue god : super omne , quod dicitur deus : which is one of the speciall markes of antichrist , and yet this antichristian arrogancie in treadinge vnderfoot the diffinitions of the church and the authority of the auncyent fathers and doctors therof is the verie mayne grownd of reformers : and therfore peter martyr one of the pryme wpholders of the reformed church endoctrinates his fellowes with this principle , sayinge : that soe longe as wee stand to the counsells and fathers , soe longe wee shall remayne in the papists errors : lib. de votis : oh when i seriously considered and discussed the former discourse with many daingerous consequences , which thence yssued and seeinge my selfe to sayle in the barke of such à congregation which had noe assured safegard against eternall shippwrack , it was high time to leaue her , and spedily to imploy all my endeavours for findinge out of that church which is the arke of safetye , the mother of the faythfull , the pillar of truth , soe beutifull à spouse of christ , which hath neyter spott nor wrincle , soe infallible à iudge of all controversies of religion , as whosoever shall refuse to receive her sentence , is to be reputed as à heathen and publican : it is this vnspotted church , not lyable to error in fayth , espoused to christ for ever , who is with her to the consummation of the world and directs her by the holy spiritt which shall abyde whith her for ever , and teach her all truth : it is this vnspotted spouse of christ ( i saye ) my cares were incumbant spedily to procure for my mother to the end i might haue god for my father . the caracteristicall and insepable marke of christ church which is but one , is that in her shall allwayes be found pastors and teachers for the contineuall preachinge of the word , and administration of the sacraments , the ordynarie meanes necessarie to salvation to this effect are alledged these words out of the apostle s. paul : a text for its clearnes able to comment its comment ; ( to witt ) that christ hath placed in his church pastors and doctors to the consummation of saints till wee all meet in the vnitie of the fayth : that is ( as doctor fulke à protestāt divine expounds for ever , calvin himselfe expowndinge it thus , concluds in these words , the church cannot at any tyme want postors and doctors , now that these pastors and doctors must not at any tyme in their office and dutyes be sylent it is not onely witnessed by the holy ghost ( i saye 62. ) but allsoe besydes ( the nature of their function requiringe it ) acknowledged by protestants : and therfore doctor fulke sayth well , truth cannot be continued in the world , but by the ministry of the pastors and doctors : in lyke sort touchinge the administration of the sacraments the same is more particulerly evicted from the cleare words of our saviour , and s. paul : seinge by the help of them wee shall shew the lords death till he come , 1. cor. 11. a point soe evydent that it lyeth out of the way of all contradiction and therfore willett à protestante in playne words mayntaineh that the absence of the sacraments makes à nullity of the church : and againe in doctor whittakres phrase , that the administration of the word and sacraments being present constitute à church , beinge absent doe subuert it : and againe as the some doctor styleth them they are ecclesiae essentiales proprietates : thus doth protestants ioyntly with catholiques teach that not at same tymes onely the church of christ beinge his insepable and immaculate spouse with whom he isto the consummation of the world , is to enioy pastors and doctors for the vse of the word and sacraments , at other tymes to be wholly destitute of them , ( ague lyke havinge their accesses and remissions ) but that at all tymes , and in all ages , in all seasons , the church without any interruption is to continew in his full orbe , by ever inioyinge the aforesayd meanes of salvation . hence it is that the fathers to confound hereticall congregations presse heretickes to shew their contynuall succession of pastors and professors of their doctrine , because if they go to scriptures interpretating it according to their owne iudgement there can be noe determination or end thus s. ireneus confounded valentinus , cedron , and marcion by this ordynation of succession ( sayth he ) the tradition which is from the apostles received into the church and the publishinge of fayth hath come even vnto vs , wee beinge able to shew , wee put all those to confusion , that through vayne glory ond ignorance broach new doctrines in the church . l. 3. c. 3. 4. 5. for none of these heretickes can deryue their succession from the apostles , nor shew how their doctrine was received by tradition from thence ; thus turtullian de praes. c. 11. confoundeth valétinus apelleus and other heretickes ; lett them publishe the origens of their church ( sayth hee ) let them vnfould the order of their bishopps soe proceedinge by successions from the begininge so that the first bishopps haue predecessors some apostle or apostolicall man , perseveringe with the apostles : in that manner they produce the sence of the apostolicall church . in this sort doth s. cyprian confound novatian because he cannot proue his su●cession accordinge to apostolicall tradition : novatian : ( sayth he ) l. 1. ep. 7. is neyther bishopp nor member of the church : who contemninge evangelicall and apostolicall tradition , succeeding noe man , is ordayned of himselfe . thus doth s. augustin l. 2. cont. retil . c. 51. confound the donatists , and sectaryes of his tyme , number ( sayth he ) your preists even from the seate of peter , and observe that order of fathers who succeeded one another ; and the successions of bishopps , was one thinge amongst others , that kept the same s. augustin , gloryous doctor of the church , from departinge out of the bosome of the catholique church : for thus he sayth in his epistle to the manicheans , many things most iustly retayneinge me in the bosome of the church , the succession of preists from peters seate to this present bishopp keepes me in the church : the name catholique keepes me &c. fynally hence it is , that s. ierome thus counselleth , in that church wee ought to abyde which founded by the apostles to this very day lasteth : yea such an evydent veritie it is that christ true church shall never want at any tyme professors and members therof , as that it extorts this testimony from her aduersarie d. whitakre not without great ioy of mynde wee doe beleive , that christ church hitherto hath endured , neyther shall it perish , soe longe as the world stands , and the contrary opinion wee esteeme as à prophane heresie . from this established foundation is erected this discourse for my purpose . ( note ) the true church of christ which is but one , shall in all ages ever inioye à succession of pastors and doctors for the administration of the worde , and sacraments ; therfore the true church of christ hath ever remayned without interruption of such pastors and teachers from the apostles tyme even vntill this daye : but noe church extant in the world can be assigned to haue remayned without interruption of pastors for the administration of the worde and sacraments , saue only the roman church therfore irrefragablie it followeth that the roman church only and those which haue cōmunyon of fayth with her , to be the only true church of christ , or else , which is most absurde and blasphemous , that christ hath noe church vpon earth , but that the gates of hell to her destruction hath prevayled against her , contrary to christ promyse . that there is noe christian church extant , but the roman church that hath withont interruption in all ages enioyed both pastors and doctors , is esilie demonstrated , for neyther the protestant church , nor the iewes , nor the arians , donatists , manicheans , pelagians , wicklefians graecians , mahometans , or any other church can be assigned but the roman : therfore &c. first concerninge the protestant church it is but new and began from luther , from whence it is called lutheran and reformed , which is manifest by the restimonies of the learned protestants , and luther himselfe which i will here inserte . let then first their champpō of the englishe church , iuell speake in the first place , he in his apologie of the church of englād in the fowerth parte , and fowerth chapter , and in his defence of the apologie anno 1571 pag. 426. truth ( sayth he ) was vnknowne all that tyme , and vnheard of , when martin luther , and vldericke zwinglius first came into the knowledge , and preachinge of the gospell , m. perkins sayth in the exposition of the creed and in his reformed catholicke ; wee affirme : sayth he , that before luthers dayes for many hundred yeares our church was not visible to the world an vniversall apostasie over spredinge the whole , face of the earth ; in soe much as bucer in his epistle to the bishopp of hereford calls luther the first apostle of the reformed gospell , whose vocation , sayth conradus sohlussburg , by reason of the then generall defection of all protestāt pastors was immediate and extraordinary , and againe , sayth the same author , had luther had any orthodox predecessor ther had needed noe reformation , doctor whitackres con. 4. qu. 5. c. 3. in tymes past noe religion , sayth he , had place in churches but papisticall ; and therfore in another place he thus write h : wee acknowledg luther to be our father , brocarde in the 2. c. apocal. sayth thus : when the preachinge of the gospell was allowed in luther , and his first onsett against the papasie , the knowledg of christ was fownd missinge in all and every of his members : d. bancrofte in his survay c. 4 hath these words , both the preists of all sorts and lykewise the people , began in tyme to be drowned in the puddles of poperie , all of them together from the topp to the toe ; calvin who in his epistles affirmes that they weere inforced to departe from the whole world in his booke of the necessity of reformation , thus writeth : it is manifest that the whole world was bewitched with these wicked opinions before luther appeared . morgastren in his treatise of the church avou●heth that it is ridiculous ( to thimke ) that in the tyme before luther , any had the puritie of doctrine and that luther should receive it from them , and not they from luther . consideringe it is manifest to the whole christian world , that before luthers tyme all churches weere overwhelmed with more then chimerian darknes and that luther was divinely raysed vp to discover the some and to restore the light of true doctrine : and luther himselfe in the preface of his 1. tom. here see even by my case how hard it is to get out of errors , which are confirmed by the example of the whole world , and by longe custome , as it were , changed into nature , and to . 2. this is written his epitaph . oh christ he shewed thee , when all the world was overwhelmed with darknes , and li. 1. de captiu . babil . beinge to wright against the masse he sayth , neyther lett it move thee , that the whole world hath the contrary opinion and custome , and fo. 68. ther is allmost this day nothinge more received or more settled in the church then that masse is à sacrifice : againe i sett vpon à thinge which beinge approud by the custome of soe many ages and consent of all , is soo ingrafted as it is needfull to change almost the whole face of the church : but by the way will yow knowe by whose instigation and what spiritt moved him ther vnto ? let hospinian , à learned protestant speake hist. sacram. part . ult. . luther confesseth ( sayth he ) that he was taught by the divell , that masse , and cheifly private masse is nought , and that beinge overcome by the divells reasons he abolished it , and therfore noe marvaill if luther li . de abrog . miss. fo. 244. thus writeth , how often did my tremblinge hart quake , and reprehendinge me obiected , that their strongest and onely argument : art thou onely wise what did all erre , were soe many ages ignorant ? behould how luthers hart and conscience did tell him that he aloue knew protestancie , and was the first pastor and preacher therof ; hence in his epist. ad argent . anno 1525. he maintaynes this point against zwinglius sayeinge wee dare boast that christ was first published by vs . soe playnlie doe the protestants and luther himselfe frely confesse , an vtter defection and want of their churches pastors and preaches for administration of the word and sacraments before luther . and indeed this manifestly appeareth out of the name of reformed church . for it is impossible the church should be reformed except it first had perished and been deformed , soe that protestants teach and professe à fayth formerly decaied and deformed , afterward restored and reformed : but the catholique fayth of christ church ( foe firmely built on à rock that hell gates shall never prevayle against it ) is an incorruptible fayth of all tymes and consequently cannot be deformed or decay at any tyme , and especialy in such essentiall matters which the reformers pretend the catholique church to haue been deformed . ( note ) wherfore protestants that doe teach à fayth which heretofore was deformed and decayed , doe not professe nor teach catholique fayth , but à novitiall innovated religion . seeinge then luther was the first pastor and teacher which reformed it , it is evident , that imediately before luther they had noe pastors nor doctors of their church . but peradventure yow will saye that the apostles , evangelists and all the aūcyent fathers , pillars and lights of gods church , of the first sixe hundred yeares were all protestant pastors and teachers of the reformed doctrine , but afterward for the space of nine hundred yeares ther were none extant till luther . but this answere satisfieth not my argument , but rather confirmeth it , ( to witt ) that the protestant church , hath not in all ages ever enioyed pastors and doctors for the administration of the word and sacraments . which is an insepable marke of christ true church : for were protestants christ true church , then should they haue had in all ages pastors and doctors to haue taught their fayth ; and not decline the iudgment of the pastors and doctors of the church , which lived in the nyne hundred yeares before luther and cōmunicated realy with , those of the 600. secondly the answere is false , if they will either be tryed by expresse scripture or fathers , as it will appeare by the revnnige through of the principall points , which are now controverted betwixt catholiques and protestants . first then by scripture catholiques doctrine is there playnly confirmed , and the reformers condemned , for example , catholiques haue expresly , if thou wilt enter into life , keep the cōmaundements mathew 19 17. and that his commaundements are not heavie . 1 10. 5. 31. and againe , in this wee know that wee haue knowne him if wee observe his commaundements . he that sayth he knoweth him and keepeth not his commaundements is a lyer and the truth is not in him : but he that keepeth his word , in him in very deed the charity of god is perfected , in this wee know that wee be in him . 1. 10. 2. v. 3 4. 5. and 10. 17. 6. protestants who brage they know god better and that they are dearer to the spiritt then other men haue noewher any playne scripture , that they are either intollerable or impossible to be kept , or that they may haue life everlastinge without keepinge of them . catholiques haue expresly , whose sinns ye forgiue , are forgiven , whose sinnes ye retaine they are retayned iohn . 20. protestants haue noewhere that preists on earth cānot forgiue sinns or retayne sinnes . catholiques haue expresly that à man is iustified by workes and not by fayth only i am . 2. and that the doers of the lawe shal be iustified ro. 2. protestants haue noewher that man is iustified by fayth alone , noe , nor that he is iustified by fayth without works , speakinge of workes that followe , and presupposeih fayth of which the controversie only is , nor that the law required at christians handes , is impossible , and that the performance therof iustifieth not à christian ; catholiques haue expresly , worke out your salvation with feare and trembling . phillp . 2. protestants haue noewher eyther that à man can worke nothing towards his owne salvation , beinge helped by the grace of god , or that à man should make it is beleiffe to be saved without feare or doubt : catholiques haue expresly vow yee , and render your vowes , psal. 75. protestants haue noewher , vow yee not , or break your vowes , as beinge vnlawfull to vow , catholiques haue expressly : doe ye the worthie fruits of pennance , luke . 3. protestants haue noewhere that fayth onely is sufficient without all satisfaction and other works of pēnance on our partes , catholiques haue expresly , that every man shal be saved accordinge to his works revela . 20. protestants haue noewhere that men shal be iudged accordinge to their fayth : catho . haue expresly , that the angell of our lorde sayd , oh lorde of host how longe wilt thou not haue mercy on ierusalem , and on the citiyes of iuda , with which thou hast been angrie : za. 1. 10. protestants haue noewhere that angells or saints make not intercession for men in this miserable life , and therfore that it is idle to craue their prayers : catho . haue alsoe expresly , that another angell came and stood by the alter of gould which is before the throne of god , and the smoke of the incenses of the prayers of saints ascended from the hand of the angell before god . revel. 8. protestants haue noewher that angells and heavenly saints doe not offer the prayers of the saints of the militant church on earth and that they cannot know them to present thē vnto god . catholiques haue expresly , grace to yow , and peace from him that is , and that was , and that shall come , and from the seaven spiritts which are in the sight of his throne , and from iesus christ ; revel. 1. 4. protestants haue noewhere , that s. iohn the evangelist did not invocate the seaven spiritts or angells ( wherof in the first chap : he maketh mention ) for the obtayninge of grace and peace for the churches of asia : and that only wee must pray to god alone , and not to christ as man and the angelicall spiritts and heavenly saints liuing with christ . catholiques haue expresly , that god is wonderfull in his saints : psalm . 67. protestants haue noe where that he is dishonnored in them , catholiques haue expresly without any limite of time : and these signes shall follow them that beleive , in my name shall they cast out divells , they shall speake with new tongues , they shall take vp serpents , and if they drinke any deadly thinge it shall not hurt them , they shall laye handes on the sick and they shall recover , mar. 16. and againe verily . verily , i saye vnto yow , he that beleiveth in me , the works that i doe he shall doe allsoe , and greater workes then these shall he doe : io. 14. protest : haue noe where that none which are of christ church , or fayth , and congregation shall doe any miracles lyke vnto his , and that it is à signe of an antichristian church to worke such profitable miracles , catholiques haue expresly , that : from pauls bodie were brought vnto the sick handkircheeffes , or napkins and the diseases departed from them , and evill spiritts went out of them , act. 19. 12. protestants haue noewhere that by the reliques of saints miracles may not be wrought , and that they are not to be esteemed or regarded : catholiques haue expresly concerninge virgins , i haue not à commaundement from our lorde but counsell i give : 1. cor. 7. and againe : the vnmarried shal be more blessed , if she remaine soe accordinge to my counsell : ioan. 40. protestants haue noe where that it is not lawfull to doe anie thinge except it can be warranted by an expresse commaund from god . catholiques haue expresly ; and the apostles & elders came together for to consider of this matter act. 15. 6. allsoe wee haue sent therfore iudas and silas who shall allsoe tell yow the same things by mouth , for it seemeth good to the holy ghost and to vs &c. ibide ; ve . 27. 28. protestāts haue noewhere that when important controversies of religion doe arise , men must be sent onely to scriptures , and to every ones private spiritt , or that it is needles to assemble counsells of the pastors of the church , for the determination of them , and that their decrees be not infallible and proceeds not from the holy ghost , catholiques haue expresly , that he that hath determined in his hart beinge settled , not havinge necessity , but havinge power in his owne will , and hath iudged this in his hart to keep his virgine doth well , therfore he that ioyneth his virgine in matrimony doth well , but he that ioyneth it not doth better : 1. cor. 7. 37. againe tho lust therof shal be vnder thee and thou shalt haue dominion ouer it , gen. 4. 7. protestants haue noewhere that mā hath not free will or power to choose good , and to eschw that which is badd , througe the assistance of gods grace : catholiques haue expresly , this is my body , this is my blood : mat. 26. alsoe the bread which i will giue is my flesh : which i will giue for the life of the world , alsoe my flesh is meat indeed and my bloud is drinke indeed . io. 6. protestants haue noewhere that vnder the externall accidents , of bread and wyne that really the body and blood of iesus christ is not there , and that it is not in substance flesh and blood indeed , but only à figure or signe of it , catholiques haue : from the risinge of the sonne even to the goeinge downe , great is my name amongst the gentiles , and in every place ther is sacrificinge , and there is offered to my name à cleane oblation because my name is great amonge the gentils , sayth the lord of hoste mall . 1. 11. protestants haue noe wher that ther is noe sacrificeing or publique oblation since christ offerred himselfe at ierusalem vpon the crosse . catholiques haue expresly , hould the traditions which yee haue learned whether it be by worde or by our epistle , 2. thess. 2. allsoe my words which i haue put in thy mouth . shall not depart out of thy mouth , and out of the mouth of thy seed , and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed , sayth our lorde from this present and forever , esay . 59. and . 21. protestants haue noewhere that apostolicall vnwritten conditions are not to be observed , and that none of gods word by divine assistance shall be cōtinnallie deliuered by word of mouth , and not openly be still professed , nor that there is noe infallible deliverie of true doctrine by word of mouth , catholiques haue expresly i will giue yow another paraclet that he may abyde whith yow forever , the spiritt of truth : he shall teach yow all truth . 10. 14. 16. and 16. 13. protest : haue noewhere that the church is not ever assisted by the holie ghost , and that at some tymes she may teach some errors , catholiques haue expresly : thou art peter and vpon this rock will i build my church mat. 16. 18. and that i haue prayed for thee that thy fayth may not faile ; allsoe iesus sayd to simon ' peter , simon of iona lovest thou me more then these ; he sayd vnto him , yea lorde , thou knowest that i loue the &c. hee sayd vnto him feed my sheep : 10. 11. 15. to thee will i give the keyes of the kingdome of heaven : mat. 18. prostest : haue noewhere that vpon s. peter ( by grace made à rock ) the church was not built , nor that he was instituted pastor to feed the christian flock , and that to him were not given the keyes of principallitie , and that he had not the priviledge after that he was pastor of not erring in matters of sayth . but can ther be à more evidēt argument that the holy scriptures cōfirme not protestāt religion how impudētly soever they pretēd scriptures , then their impious detraction from the authoritie of moses , the evangelists , the apostles , and their writings ? wheras mose , was the first that writt any parte of scriptures and he who writt the lawe of god , or tenne commaundements . luther thus reiecteth him and his tenn commaundements . tom. 3. serm. fo. 40. 41. and in colloq. mensal . ser. fol. 152. 153. wee will neyther he are nor soe moses , for he is given only to the iewes , neyther doth he belonge to vs . in colloq. menfal . c. de lege & evangel . i will not receive moses whith his lawe for he is the enemy of christ , and ibid. fol. 118. moyses is the master of all hangmen , and in serm. de moyse the tenne cōmaundements belonge not to christians , and in convin . coloq . cyted by ourifal cap. de lege , let the commaundements be altogether reiected , and all heresies will presently cease , for the tenne commaundements are as it were from whence all heresies springe . islebius luthers scholler taught that the decalogue was not to be taught in the church . and from him came the secte of antinomans who publikly taught that the law of god is not worthie to be called the worde of god . if thou beest à whoremonger , if an adulterer , or otherwise à sinner ; beleive , and thou walkest in the way of salvation : when thou art drowned in sinne even to the bottome , if thou belivest , thou art in the middest of happines : all that busie themselues about moses , that is the tenne commaundements , belonge to the divell , to the gallowes with moses . luther doth not belive all things related in the booke of iob. and with him it is as it were the argument of à fable ; he sayth of ecclesiasticus , this booke is not prefect , manie things are taken away , it wanteth bootes and spurres , that is , it hath noe prefect sentence , and in his preface vpon s. iames epistle , he styles it contentious , tumide , strawie and vnworthie of an apostoticall spiritt , and againe luther preposterously comparinge the fower evangelists among themselues preferreth , the epistles of s. paul farre before the three former ( to witt ) before s. mat. s. marke , and s. luke : and iudgeth that the onely gospell of s. iohn is excelent and true . castalio commaunded the canticles of solomon to be thurst out of the cannon , as an impure and obsceane songe . calvin feared not to affirme that s. iames approved superstitious vowes , and brought paul to consent with him in the same faults , in ca. 21. act. and vpon the 2. of s. math. wrights that mathew did improperly and often cyte the sentences of the ould prophetts against their true and proper sence . see him alsoe vpon the 4. chap. 13. ve . and in 8. c. v. 17. and n. 27. c. v. 9. and in his institutions li. 2. c. 16. 8. 10. doubt whether the apostles creed were made by the apostles ; and in the 15. c. act. affirmes that s. marke was à forsaker of his vocation , and an apostata &c. and that he had filthilie through his owne fault fallen from his chardge . elebitius opposeth the evangelists one against another , for in his victorie of truth and ruine of poperie , he hath these worde , marke and mathew deliver the contrarie , therfore to mathew and marke beinge twoe witnesses , more credit is to be given then to one luke . swinglius tom. 2. cont. anabapt. chardgeth the anabaptists with ignorance for that they thinke the commentaries of evangelists , the epistles of the apostles , to haue been then in authoritie , when paul did wright these things , as though paul did attribute soe much to his epistles that what soever was contained in them wus sacred &c. which thinge ( sayth swinglius ) were to attribute immoderate arrogancie to the apostle . others as witakres cont. bell. controu. 2. 9. 4. p. fulk 32. fulke against the rem . test . in gal. 2. fo. 322. condemne s. peter to haue erred in matters of fayth , even after the holie ghosts descendinge vpon the apostles : ( note ) but these things once admitted how then were the evangelists and apostles , scribes of the holie ghost , and erred not in their preachings ? m. rogers vpon the 6. article confesseth and nameth sundry of his brethren protestants reiecting for apocriphall , s. paules epistle to the hobrewes , the epist. of s. iames , the . 1. & 2. and s. io. of iude , and the revelation of s. iohn , ( wher by the way yow may observe the concorde , or communion , which protestants haue even touchinge the scripture , and pretended principales of their fayth ) finallie doe not our englishe protestants discarde as apocriphall , and rase out of the auncient cannon of the church tobie , iudith , esther , baruch , the booke of wisdome , the 1. & 2. of the machabees &c. here i saye nothinge of the manifould corruptions and erronious interpretations made by protestants even in these scriptures which themselues admitt to be canonicall ; and how their apostle martin luther whom they soe much magnifie , sayth in his . 1. tom. witt . fo. 155. in regarde that christ is the treasure , i care not for all the sayings of the scripture , planè nihil curo omnia scripturae dicta : and to omitt allsoe how in his colloq ad mensall . fo. 286. he calles the apostles , great knaues , these be his wordes apostoli etiam fuerunt peccatores , & crassi magni nebulones : c. 2. p. 18 ( note ) here i appeale to the indifferent iudgment of an impartiall reader , whether any men livinge wold ever like vnto the protestants and reformers , soe reiect , deride , and censure eyther the prophetts , apostles , evangelists , and the sacred scriptures , if they did favour their cause , as they vaynly pretend . now to come to the tryall of the auncient fathers , who interpreted the scriptures with great fame and prayse , in the church of god , and lived within the first sixe hundred yeares ; which tymes they acknowledg to be pure , and therfore appeale vnto them , as best able to wittnes the profession of fayth of the primitiue church , as beinge the pastors and doctors therof . for brevity sake i will forbeare to alledge the fathers testimonies in prooffe of catholiques doctrine , which i haue reade , but i will make evident by the playne confessions of the best champions of the reformed church , and greatest aduersaries of catholiques that the auncient fathers in controversies of religion are on the catholiques side , for which reason they censure them . for example , to begin with s. peters primatie , m. fulk when the consent of auncient fathers were alleeged against them to that purpose , vpon the words of christ : then art peter and vpon thee will i build my church , answereth it cannot be denyed , but divers of the auncient fater otherwise goodly and learned , were deceived , in opinion of peters prerogatiue : and zantius another great protestant sayth , the fathers exposition , vpon this rock , that is vpon peter is not admitted , and luther the great apostle of protestancie sayth : heare all eyther fathers or doctors as manie as hitherto haue interpreted scriptures , haue stumbled , as when that of math 16. then art peter &c. they interpret of the pope ; kemtius cōc . tr. p. 3 sayth , hat most of the fathers , as nazianzē , nissē , basill , theodorett , ambroi , ierome , augustine , did not dispute but avouch the soules of saints and martyrs to heare the petitions of those that prayed vnto them , they went often to the monuments of martyrs , and invocated martyrs by name . whitgifte , defen. p. 473. all the bishopps and learned wrighters of the greek church and latins allsoe for the most part wree spotted with doctrines of frewil , of merit , of invocation of saints and such lyke . doctor whitakers de sac : script . p. 655. & 678. & 68. besyde that he sayth of dionisius s. paules disciple , that he was a great patron of traditions , and of s. basill that he beleived limbus patrum and vnwritten traditions , he confesseth generallie of all the auncient fathers , that they held limbus patrum , free will , merrits of good workes , invocation of saints , single life of bishopps &c. and that the popish religion is patched out of the fathers errors . d. homph . in his iesuitis part . 2. p. 930. teacheth that it may not bé denyed but that ireneus , clement , and others called apostolicall , haue in their wrightings the opinions of free will , and merrite of workes : lascitius à protestant of noe meane ranke would haue vs to beleive : in his defen. pa. 146. that the fathers devised purgatorie , that they were of opinion , that prayers and sacrifice of the masse was to be offered vp for the dead , that they bereaved the lay people of the cupp , called vpon dead saints , and brought in such lyke errors . calvin allsoe sayth it was à custome one thowsand three himdred yeares agoe to pray for the dead , but all of that tyme i confesse were carried away into errors . those things which occurre here and ther abont satisfaction in the writings of all those in ould tyme , moved me little , i see indeed some of them , i will speake playenly , allmost all whose bookes are extant , haue eyther slipped in this point or spoken too rigorouslie and too harshly : but will yow see how luther betramples the fathers in his colloq. mensal . cap. de patribus eccles. ( note ) in the wrightings of ierome , ther is not à worde of true fayth in christ and sounde religion : tertullian is veri superstitious : of chrysostome i make noe accoumpt . basill is of noe worth , he is wholie à monke , i weigh him not à hayre , ciprian is but à weake divine &c. thus your grande apostle luther , who therfore readeth this lesson to all his followers ; lay aside all such weapons as the auncient orthodoxall fathers , schooles and divines , authorities of councells and popes , the consent of soe many ages , and of all christian people doth afforde : ( note ) wee receive nothinge but scriptures , but soe , that wee alone may haue the approued authoritie of interpretinge them : ( note ) as wee expownd them , soe was the meaninge of the holie ghost , what others bringe be they never soe great , be they never soe maine , it proceedeth from the spiritt of satan and from à madd and alienated mynde . peter marter one of the principall of the reformed church li . de votis , sayth , soe longe as wee doe insist vpon counc●lls and fathers , wee shale allwayes be conversant in the same errors : duditius sayth , if that be the truth that the fathers haue professed with mutuall consent , it is altogether on the papists side . alas what ment m. iewell then with such deep dissimulation to the preiudice of his owne and others soules , by solemne acclamation in à publique sermon at paules crosse , to vtter these words . oh gregoire , oh augustin , oh hierome , oh chrisostome , o leo , o dionisius , o anacletus , o calixtus , o paule , o christ ! if we be deceived , ye haue deceived , this yow taught vs , had not m. d. humphrey in the life of iewell good reason to reprehend his bould appeale , affirmeing therin that he granted over much , and yelded more then of right vnto the papists , and iniured himselfe over much , &c. and in à manner spoyled himselfe and the church &c. what haue wee to doe whith the fathers , with fleshe , or blood : had not d. steephens his intimate freind better reason to abandon the protestant religion when vpon m. iewells intreatie , he had revewed his booke and admonished m. iewell of his manifould falsifications of the fathers , he obtained nothinge at his handes , but diabolicallie persistinge tould him , they would disgrace soe the papists that they should not be beleived against him , though they discovered never soe many of his falsifications : had not allsoe m. wallsingham iust reason to leaue the church of england when he fownd soe many corruptions and falsehoods in this their greatest chāpion of their church . soe heighly honored by protestants , as that he hath been kept in diverse churches as à pullpitt booke . alas what ment m. doctor whitaker allsoe with the lyke damnable hipocrisie , soe confidently to saie . the speech of m. iewell was most true , and constant : when provokinge yow to the antiquity , of the first sixe hundred yeares he offerred : that if yow could shew but any one cleare and playne sayinge out of any father , or councell he would graunt yow the victorie : t is the offer of vs all , the same doe wee all promise and wee will performe it , what ment he ( i saye ) seinge he himselfe contrary to himselfe in another place de s. scrip : avoucheth that the popishe religion is à patcht coverlett of the fathers erros . ( note ) for i will demaund of him , whether the popishe religion be à patcht coverlett of the fathers errors , in these points of religion , where both catholiques and protestats agree , or in the other controverted points ? if he saye the first , then is his religion lykewise the errors of the fathers , if the second , then accordinge to himselfe the fathers be of the catholiques syde in the points of controversie . what ment likewise m. willett in his antol. pa. 263. diabollicallie against his owne conscience with such impudence to protest in this manner ; i take god to witnes before whom i must render an accoumpt , that the same fayth and religion which i defend , is taught and confirmed , in the most substantiall points , by those histories , councells and fathers , that lived within five or sixe hundred yeares after christ . when as he himselfe in his grosse survay of poperie is soe bould to nickname antiquitie the alleagtion of the holie councell vnder s. silvester aboue thirtene hundred yeares agoe hestilles , thevaine shew of moath worme antiquitie ; and wheras bellarmin thinketh it à probable opinion that antichrist shal be of the tribe of dan ; for that manie of the auncient fathers probablie soe held , namely s. ireneus , hippolitus , ambrus , augustine , prosper , theodorett , s. gregory , &c. m. willett without ever strayninge of curtesie , calleth them playne hereticks , it is à verie fable and couseninge device of heretickes ( quoth he ) to make men beleive that antichrist shall come of the tribe of dan. surly d. parkes in his rejoinder pa. 7. pa. 365. had good reason to tell him , lyke à brother of his ; yow haue committed such faults even in that great worke , wherof yow bragg soe much , as yow can neyther defend with honestie , nor with modestie excuse : yea the same d. parkes his fellow minister , as willett himselfe recounts , in his lodoromast : chardgeth him with folly , hipocrisie , falshood , lyeinge infidelitie , impudencie , machivilisme , athisme , &c. and iudeed who but à machauilian athist , if really he had thought that there had been à god after this life to haue punished : durst haue made such à protestation : and to omitt the lyke vaine cracks of m. vsher copiously discouered by mallone in his replie to his answere ; it is most true , that which zantius à great protestant ingeniously confesseth of protestant writers viz : scriptures at our pleasures wee detorte , to our dreames , wee boast of fathers , when wee will followe nothinge lesse then their doctrine , soe he in his epist. 10. to sturmius . but is not luther then the author of the protestant reformation with his brethren to be esteemed for havinge endeavoured to reforme the church in diverse manie points of fayth , wherin they affirme for manie ages she hath erred : surlie noe : except wee should honnor and esteeme those who renew auncient condemned heresies , and hereticall manners , wherof luther and his sectaries are in à heigh degree guiltie : but as for reformation in matters of fayth : wherin they pretend the church hath erred : they are rather to be avoyded , who glories in any such title : ( note ) seinge that herein they destroy the godhead of christ , and make him an imposture for if the church of christ which he promised soe firmely to build on à rocke , as that hell gates should never prevaile against her , and vnto the pastors wherof he promised that he would assist to the consummation of the world , and give them the spiritt of truth to abyde with them forever for the teachinge of them all truth : if i saye the church of christ could , or had erred in matters of fayth ; as the pretended reformers affirme , then doth it follow that they make christ not ominipotent , able to vphold his church , against her enemies , and soe destroy his godhead : or an imposteur in not fullfillinge what he promised , because the church for errors of fayth , and want of truth , is as much destroyed , as à man if he wanteth , or is deficient in any one of his essentiall parts , ( to witt ) if he be not à livinge , or à reasonable creture , the defect of any of these destroyes him . soe in lyke manner if the true church of christ could erre in fayth , or fayle in truth which is essentiall to the church , it could not subsist possiblie : for accordinge to themselues the church essentiallie is à congregation of faythfull where truely the worde of god and the sacraments are administred ; wherfore if the worde and sacraments haue erroniously been administred for soe many ages as they pretend , then consequentlie of necessitie hath the church of christ perisht and hell gates prevayled against her : and soe by this doctrine it followeth that christ is not god : and that the iewes may well reiect him , and the gospells anounceinge and speakinge of him , as à grande impostour , which is most blasphemous . and this doctrine of the churches error in fayth , by which protestants pretend to iustifie their revolte and speration of there reformed congregation , from the catholique church ; is the maine motive why i ame averted from their societie : and relinquish their communion ; and soe much in proffe that the protestant congregation wants the insepable marke of christ his true church , and in confutation of there shufling evasions . secondly , the iewes haue not inioyed in all ages pastors and doctors to administer truely the word and sacraments , for their church at this present is not christian : nor the arians pelagians , manicheans , donatists , wicklifians , &c. for they haue all perished , and that in such serte as had not catholique doctors , impugned them in their wrightings , and that these present reformers haue here and there renewed some of their heresies , ther had scarcely remained any memory of them . neither also the graecians , for they were in communion with the roman church , of and on , about one thowsand yeares : soe that for such à space since the apostles tyme they cannot be sayd to haue bin à distinct church from the roman church from whom the patriarke of constantinople was confirmed , and the bishopp of rome by himselfe or his legate presided in all lawfull generall councells , celebrated formerly in greece although now vnfortunatelie , as all knowes they be sepated by reason of the heresie touchinge the holie ghost &c. mereouer their successiō hath bin interrupted by the intrusion of maine hereticall and not lawfully ordayned bishopps , as confessedlie is auerred , by all catholiques , and cannot be denied by protestants : neyther the turkishe mahometans , for they haue not had existance in the world ever since christ his tyme , and soe cannot glorie of their antiquitie , professinge christian fayth , as indeed also not beinge christians , and soe consequentlie comes not into question : for here wee treat of the perpetuall existence and antiquitie of à church professinge christian doctrine , accordinge to the markes which insepablie accōpaine christ his church as in the begininge was established : finally the lyke may be demonstrated of any other christian church that may be assigned ( to witt ) that they want the insepable marke of christ his church that is the enioyinge of à continuall succession of pastors in all ages to administer the worde and sacraments . on the contrarie , by the confession of the protestants the romaine church many hundred yeares was the true church of christ , and noe protestant is able by evidence of any authenticke ecclesiasticall historie to shew any christian companie or church in rerum natura more auncient of different fayth , from whence the romane church departed , therfore as yet she is and ought to be esteemed , and consequentlie must enioye in all ages pastors and teachers for the administration of the worde and sacraments , beinge the true church cannot fubsist without them . heer then i vrge , that if the romane church , whose fayth ( as testifieth the apostle ; ep. ad rom. c. 1. was published and renowned throughout all the world , that is with whom all the christian world had communion of fayth , here i vrge , i saye , that if the catholick romane church had departed from any other extant church that enioyeth à succession of pastors vp to the apostles time , that they would name the time when she fell away from that church : name the companie of christians of more auncient , and of different fayth from whence she is departed , tell where this christian companie more auncient is extant : rehearse the succession of their pastors out of ecclesiasticall records : for seing it is à prophesie drawne from aknowledged scriptures on all sides : and from the acknowledged sence on all sides that christ church shall forever enioy continewally pastors and doctors for the worke of the ministrie , that is for preaching the worde and administringe the sacraments : the verification of this prophesie can be drawne from noe other testimonie then the evidence of ecclesiasticall history . and truly it is à strange incredible thinge , that seeinge christ church is soe visible , as she is compared to à tabernacle placed in the sonne , to à light not hidd vnder à bushell , but placed on à candlesticke and finally to à citty of everlastinge foundation , builded vpon à mountaine , which was in such manner without anie limit of tyme to shine to the world ( to witt ) cheiffly by her pastors and teachers , the lights therof : soe that it cannot be hidd : how is it possible that if there were extant , any such auncient compaine of christians , but that some historie would give some testimonie of her succession of pastors , and apostolicall acts : and certainlie if men were voide of reason or sence , perad venture they might be perswaded that for nine hundred yeares together men had noe eyes , noe eares , and noe tongues , as easilie as that there was à more aūcient church which had pastors that had noe tongues to preach with , had such members as had neither eyes , nor eares , to see and heare their pastors to administer the worde and sacraments , and yeld anie testimonie that they eyther sawe or heard such pastors and doctors : and questionles some historians that lived in those dayes would mention , the departure of the romane church soe renowued for her fayth through the world , if she had made anie deperture from such à more auncient christian companie , professing à different fayth . wher were the watchmen god placed vpon the walles of his church that should not hold their peace neither night nor daye : esay 62. ? were they asleepe and silent , when soe notorious à breach was made ? were the pastors and doctors which christ had given to his church for the worke of the ministrie vnto the consummation of the number of the elect , and vntill wee mett all in the vnitie of fayth , ephes. 4. were not ( i saye these pastors and doctors able to confirme in sownd doctrine and stoutlie and corragiously even with importunitie to reprehended and argue the romane catholiques , for the introduction of such grosse errors as protestants accuse the romane church to haue been possessed with for soe maine ages ? could they take notice of the least chinkes of the churches walles , that is , of the few errors of fayth , ( in comparison of those the romane church is accused of by protestants ) which eyther arians , pelagians marchionists , manicheans , &c. attempted to haue made ? and onely were they vnable to argue the romane church ? or were they partiall or corrupted to be silent and dombe , vntill papistrie over-ran and possessed the whole christian world : and did the holie ghost , which by christ infalliblie was promised to abyde forever with these pastors to teach them all truth forsake them soe maine ages , and at last take their flight to à sacrilegious luxurious apostata , martin luther , and à branded sodomite iohn calvin who at last should discover the romane churches deperture from the more auncient christian church , god knowes in what imaginarie spaces extant to be fownd ? credite posteri . noe , noe , soe farr is the romane church from havinge departed from any other more auncient extant compagny of christians professinge à different fayth as that her greatest enemyes witnesse the contrarie : d. feild . l. 3. de eccle. c. 13. sayth , the romane church allwayes had communion with those churches which never fell into error : d. sutcliffe allsoe pressed with the truth doth acknowledge in his answere to à masse preists petition , that the romane church never departed from anie visible companie of christians , bunny in his treatis of pacification , sayth that she allwayes communicated with the true church , and never went from the christian cōpanie . yea , cassander much magnified by protestants sayth , that the romane church is to be reverenced as beinge the true church of god : and somes in his defence against penrie sayth , that by the iudgment of all learned men and of all the reformed churches , the true church is the papistrie . iohn white in his defence c. 41. in the name of his fellowes sayth , wee professe the romane church , in all ages to haue been the visible church of god , wee never doubt , sayth feild , li . 3. de eccl. but that the churches wherin those holie men s. bernarde , s. dominike &c. did liue and die , were the true churches of god ; and held the savinge profession of heavenlie truth , yea luther whom with tytle of father of protestants m. whitakers honoreth , sayes in his epist. against the anabaptist wee confesse that all christian good is in the papacie , and that from thence it came downe to vs ; and in the selfe some place he sayth , i saye farther that in the papasie is the true christianitie , yea and the true curnell of christianitie ; and anthonie saddell in his booke de rebus graniss controversis &c. titulo de legitima vocatione pastorum ecclesiae reformatae , affirmes that sundrie protestants confesse that the ministers with them to be destitute of lawfull callinge , as not havinge à contineual visible succession from the apostles time , which they doe attribute only to the papists ; and m. fu'ke allsoe accordinglie sayth , yow can name the notable persons in all ages in their government and ministrie , and especially the succession of the popes , yow can rehearse in order vpon your fingers , soe he in his auswere to à counterfett catholique : it beinge then made manifest by the text of canonicall scriptures , the testimonies of the approved auncient fathers , yea and from the plaine confession of the learned protest : ( so powerfull is truth as she extorts weapons from her adversaries in her owne defence ) that it is an insepable true marke of christ his church , his spowse , which is but one , that she shall allwayes enioy pastors and doctors rightly to administer the word and sacraments : insomuch as wher there is à cessatiō or want of these pastors given for the worke of the ministrie , vntill wee all meet in the vnity of fayth , there can be noe church , and consequently noe salvation . and seeing alsoe this marke agreeth not with protest : or any other congregation saue only the romane church , as hath aboundontly bin declared , it followeth by à necessary sequell , that the romane church is the onely church to which wee must be vnited , if wee will be saued : she onely beinge infallable and secure , in her doctrine . for if she onely beareth the cognissance and inseperable marke of christ his church as hath bin demōstrated , then necessarily to her only , are agreable those prerogatiues , which by holy writt are conferred and confirmed on christ his church , to witt , that she is the foundation and pillar of truth , 2. ad tim. 3. that she hath the spirit of truth ever to abyde with her pastors to teach her all truth , io. 14. c. and . 16. c. that she is the spowse of christ without wrinkle or blemish which he hath espoused to himselfe by à continuall assistance vnto the consummation of the world , eph. 5. and finally that she is the church , to whose iugment in controversies of religion wee are to referre our selues , and to whose determination without further appeale wee ought to obey , vnder the penalty of beinge reputed heathers and publicans . math. 28. math. 18. wherfore i thus resolue , that seeinge the romane church is christ his true church , if he hath any on earth , as most certainly he hath , and that in no age or season christ his true church can erre in matters of fayth : i ame resolued , i saye , to receive for à verity of fayth that which the romane church hath or shall declare to be such , and on the contrary reiect and disclayme from whatsoever doctrine she hath , or shall disapproue or condemne , as repugnant to gods worde written or vnwritten . let then her athistical aduersaries presse never soe much to receive nothinge but that which by their naturall reason they can be convinced of , i ame prepared accordinge to the advice of the apostle to captiuite my vnderstandinge obsequiously to the mysteries of fayth , as beinge supernaturall and transeendinge naturall reason : and therfore will i rest in the iudgment of the church , which is ever directed by à supernaturall agent , that teacheth her all truth : hee that seeketh fayth seeketh not reasō , sayth tertullian and chrisologus , athens hath nothing to intermeddle with hierusalem , nor the academy with the church ; our schoole is the porch of solomon which teacheth vs that wee must search for god with simplicity of hart , and not with frivolous curiositie of naturall reason ; what wronge doth the creator to vs , if he would haue vs beleiue more then wee are able to comprehend ? it is not for the iron to aske of the adamant from whence those charmes and secret influences come , wherwith he attracteth and captiuats him ; it is enough that he followe : when god proposeth à verity to vs by the voyce and generall consent of the church , wee are not to appeale to humaine reason , and to sence , which haue winges tooshort to vndertake such à flight : while one proceedeth in this manner , fayth wil be noe true fayth , but à fantesy or opinion ; if s. peter would not haue beleiued christ to haue bin the sonne of god , except naturall reason and carnall sence had convinced him therof ; our saviour had not pronounced blessed art thou simon bariona : for that fleshe and blood hath not revealed it vnto yow &c. vpon this rock will i build my church . for in the comprehension of the verities and the misteries of fayth , it is the spirit that quickeneth and the fleshe profitteth nothinge , as our blessed saviour avoucheth against those which were incredulous , that the bread which he would giue to eate was his fleshe for the liffe of the world . for according to s. gregoire : fides non habet meritum vbi ratio praebet experimentum : and therefore blessed ore those who beleeue and doe not see , viz : by the evidence of natural reason or sense . lett also heretickes obiect against any article of our fayth any texte of scriptures , perversly or malitiously interpretted , and to theire owne perdition misvnderstood , according to the dictamen of their owne private vnwarranted spiritt : lett them i saye with noe lesse pryde , then madmes , proclayme the churches authority lyable to error in declaringe what is truly cōformable or repugnant to the worde : i value not their erronious iudgments , knowinge full well that she is ever assisted by the spirit of all teachinge truth , accordinge to the infallible promise of christ and cānot teach any thinge repugnant to the worde of god , noe more then god can teach contrary to himselfe , who is her director : and therfore whosoever harkenneth vnto her voyce , that is to the generall iudgment of the pastors and teachers , heareth the voyce and word of christ , soe that the worde of the church is the worde of christ : whence s. augustin , who dilligently observed this rule , sayeth , the truth of scripture is holden by vs , when wee doe that which know hath pleased the vniversall church , which the authority of the same scripture doth commend : that seeinge the holy scripture cannot deceive , whosoever feareth to be deceived by the obscurity of this question , lett him take counsell therof from the church ; which without any ambiguitie the scriptures doth demonstrate ; and in another place he sayth , it is most insolent madnes , what she professes and practices to call in question , epist. 118. ad ianuarium cap. 5. and why , i pray , is this most insolent madnesse to question what the church professes and practiseth , but because this in effect is to denie , or dispute against the canonicall scriptures aknowledged on both sides ? for if in the aknowledged worde of god , by most cleare testimonies , the authority of christ his church is soe highly magnified as that she is styled the pillar and foundation of truth , the vnspotted spouse without wrinkle ; his body , his lott , his inheritance and kingdome given him in this world , in which he hath placed apostles , doctors and pastors to the consummation of the electe , which doctors are ever assisted by the spirit that teacheth them all truth , and accompanied by our saviour to the consummation of the world , who comaunds vs to harken to his spouse the church : sub poena of beinge reputed heathens or publicans : tell me then is not this most insolent madnesse to call her profession and practice in question : ( note ) to be soe antichristianly proud , as to preferr our owne iudgments and expositions of the worde , before the church which is directed by the spirit of truth ; is not this in words to boast much of scriptures , and indeed not to follow them , for if yow search the scriptures , that is profoundly , and not superficiasly or malitiously consider them , yow shall finde that the same are they that give testimony of her , and how she is to be obeyed and as eagerly followed . wherfore to draw to à conclusion , seeinge the true church of christ which is but one , cannot erre in matters of fayth , and onely the romane church beareth the vnseperable marke of it : to vse the apostle s. paules words : from hence foward lett noe man trouble me , for i beare the markes of my lorde iesus in my bodie ad gal. 5. from hence forth let noe man goe about to molest my conscience for being incorporated in the bodie of the romane church , which is only remarkable with the cognisance and markes of christ vnspotted spouse , whose infallible rules and prescriptions i will followe as à secure guide of my fayth , to procure the peace of reconciliation and mercy of god : and whosoever shall follow this rule ( to speake with the apostle ) peace be vpon them and mercie : this is the way soe direct , as that fooles cannot erre in it : this is the church whose fayth , as testifieth the apostle , was published through the world , that is which had the communion of the christian world , which truely makes it catholick , that is the church , with whom all the renowned saints and martyrs haue had vnion : and of this they vtter such honorable testimonies as are agreeable to noe other thē christ his church . s. lucius b. and martyr epist. 1. thus speaketh of her ; the romane church is apostollicall ād mother of all churches , which is never proued to haue erred from the path of apostolicall traditiō , nor depraued with hereticall novelties to haue fayled , accordinge to the promise of the lorde himselfe saying , i haue prayed for thee that thy fayth fayle not s. cyprian the glorious martyr avoucheth in his 52. epist. that to haue communion with the b : of rome to be all one and the same as to cōmunicate with the catholick church : and in another place , that to this sea , trecherie can haue uoe accesse , beinge the chayre of peter : s. hierome alsoe that renowned scripturist and doctor of the church , thus writeth to pope damassus , i beinge à sheep doe require from the preist the host of salvation , and from the pastor fasafegard &c. i speake with the successor of the fysher &c. i follow none first but christ , and ioyned with communion to thy holynes , that is to the chayre of peter , vpon that rock i know the church to be builded , whosoever out of this howse eateth the lambe is prophane , whosoever shal not be in the arke of noah shall perishe in the deluge : s. augustin in his 162. epist. puttinge à catalogue of the bishopps of rome , beginnes first with s. peter , and sayth that the principallity of the apostolicall chayre hath ever florished in the church of rome ; and in another place aboue prementioned affirmes the succession of these pastors from peter , amongst other motiues to haue kept him in the bosome of the catholick church ; s. ambrose calleth the bishopp of this sea governor of the whole church . that holy seate , sayth theodorett houlds the sterne of governinge the churches of all the worlds : s. ireneus that great hamerer of hereticks sayth , that for the more powerfull principallity , it is necessary that all churches haue recourse vnto it , s. prosper , avoncheth that the apostles peter and paul founded the church of the gentiles in the cittie of rome , where they taught the doctrine of christ our lorde , they deliuered vnto their successors peacable and vnited together , they consecrated it with their blood and memories accordinge to the passion of our lorde , à christian communicatinge with this generall church is catholick , but if he be seperated from it , he is an heretick , antichrist : soe this glorious doctor in his treatise de promis : & predict dei part . 4. e. 5. finally both east and westerne fathers assembled together in the councell of florenee thus decreed : wee define that the holy catholick sea . and bishopp of rome haue the primacie over the whole world : and that the romane bishopp is the successor of blessed peter , prince of the apostles , and the true viccar of christ , and head of the whole church , and father and master of all christians , and that vnto him , in s. peter , is given by our lorde iesus christ full power to feed , rule and governe the vniuersall church : ( note ) if then the romane church bearinge the inseperable marke of christ his church be accordinge to the fathers the apostolicall chayre of s. peter : christes vicar never depraved with hereticall novelties , with whom à christian , communicatinge is catholick , from whome beinge seperated is an hereticke : what shall i regard more the impious raylings and fictions of an ignominious apostata martin luther and his adherent sectaries against the romane church , then the vncontroulable testimonialles of the venerable auncient fathers : whose sanctitie and learnige , the whole christian world hath ever reverenced ? or shall i adhere rather to à new reformed congregation . the pastors and teachers wherof are never able more to make good their vocation of the ministry of the worde and sacraments , then any other hereticall intrudors clymeinge lyke theeves by an vndirect way ? or shall i follow à congregation of such teachers which confesseth her selfe lyable to error in fayth : or rather cleaue to that church , which is founded vpon à rock , against which the gates of hell shall never prevayle , as beinge directed accordinge to the infallible promise of christ , by the ever assisting spiritt , teachinge all truth , and noe falsehood ; ( note ) certainly to this rock will i adhere , otherwise shall i change à certainty into an vncertainety , an infallibilitie into à fallibilitie . a securitie into à ieoperdie , yea otherwise in à matter that concernes my soules greatest good , or ill , i should effectually demonstrate that i make noe reckoninge of the dreadfull generall accountinge day , nor haue any feelinge thougts of the hideous horror of the infernall lake of the rauenige devills , wher it is true that tenn hundred millions of millions of yeares in vnsuportable torments is but the beginnige , as it were of inexplicable dolors ; o eternitie ! o eternitie ! wher it is true , that all the greuous paines that from the begnimge of the world all men vpon earth ever endured or could excogitate , is but the greatest ease or consolation . o extreame torments in the vnquenshable scorchinge flames of hell fier . o god , what an abisle is thy iust iudgment in punishinge scismatickes and hereticks , who for wordly endes , willfull ignorance , obstinate adheringe to their owne private spiritts , will rather feele them , then before hand prevent them by seekinge to incorporate themselues into the true church of christ , which is the vyne out of which if any branch be , it shall vndoubtedlie be eternall fuell for hell fier . but some will peradventure saye that feinge the moderne lawes of the realme inflicts such great penalties vpon catholickes ; it had bin better for me to haue deferred my conversion vntill my death , and then to haue repented me , and then with harty sorow to haue confessed my sinnes bin reconcilid to the catholike church : to these i answere that though true it be , at what time soever à sinner hartely repents for soe longe communicatinge with schismaticall and hereticall new congregations , he may finde favour yet consideringe the innumerable daingers which often vnespectedly depriues man of this liffe , who is he that can promise himselfe gods grace , without which he cannot repent and be reconciled ? yea must he not rather thinke that he shall be debarred thereof , when he shall refuse to come to the banquet of the holy lambe in the catholike church beinge invited by many inspirations soundinge in his eares , this day if yow shall heare my voyce , obdurate not your harts , and affect not to be ignorant of the true church , least yow should be converted and liue forever . moreover if yee consider the nature of celestiall glorie which is such as the least glimpes therof but for one moment , in an eminent degree surpasseth all wordly honnors , pleasures and riches , that ever the eye of man did see in this world , or is able to see , the eare to heare , yea or then can be comprehend by the vnderstanding of man which in one quarter in thought can represent farre more then the eye can see in many yeares , or the care heare in à long space . what marchant then is he who would not give all to procure the inestimable treasure of everlastinge glorie in noewise to be purchased but by those that be members of the catholicke church ? for them doe i pray : not for the world doe i praye : but for them whom thou hast given me because , they be thyne : 10. 17. ve . 9. for none indeed be children of the heavenly father , who be not children of the church ; who soe is sound to be out of her communion , sayth s. augustin : de simb . ad catechu . he shal be excluded from the number of gods children : nor shall he haue god for his father , who would not haue the church for his mother , and it shall avayle him nothimge that he beleived &c. to the same purpose he speaketh in diuers other places , as , de verit . eccles. ad bonif. and s. cyprian the glorious martyr in his booke of the vnity of the church , sayth that he belongeth not vnto the rewards of christ , who abandoneth the church of christ : hee is an alyen , he is prophane , he is an enimie , he cannot now haue god for his father who acknowledgeth not the church for his mother . yea sayth s. cyprian that great champian of the church saith in the same booke . he maye be killed , but he cannot be crowned , for he professeth himselfe to be à christian noe otherwise then the divill faineth himselfe to be christ : accordinge to our lordes sayeinge luke : 21. manie will come in my name and saye i ame christ : o then sayth s. fulgentius another phoenix lett them all make hast whilst they haue tyme vnto their lawfull mother : for even as within the catholick church fayth is in the hart vnto iustice , and confession is made with the mouth vnto salvation : soe without the same church an evill selfe persuasion attayneth not vnto rightuousnes but vnto punishment , and à wronge confession bringeth death , and not salvation to him that maketh it : &c. hould it then for most certaine and vndoubted that noe hereticke , noe scismaticke , though baptizred in the name of the father , and of the sonne , and of the holy goast &c. can possiblie be saved vnles he be recounsiled to the catholick church . thus s. fulgentius . and that the romane church is that societie out of which is noe salvation , yow haue heard before by the many testimonies prealledged of the fathers : and by what i haue demonstrated of . these ( most dearly beloued father and best freinds ) are the motiues which amongst many other i haue reade and collected , which haue occasioned my spedy aversion from the english reformed congregation of protestants , which i haue confirmed by the manifould confessions of your owne brethren , not for that i weigh their authoritie but partly for that protestants contemne all authority of the church , councells and auncient fathers , and with vnreasonable pride and arrogance will haue their owne words stand as gospell : partlie allsoe for that these can not be à more excellent witnessinge then where an enimye doth approue our cause and criminalls confesse the truth against themselues : these allsoe are the principall motiues of my conversion to the holy catholike apostolicall church of rome , that is to the cōmunitie which by obedience and in vnion of fayth communicates with the bishopp of rome , successor of the holy apostle s. peter , and christs vicar vpon earth : from whose communion in the secte masters of protestancy , viz : luther , calvin &c. ye haue departed not without the iust censure of schisme , as invinceblie and vnanswerably is thus demonstrated by m. d. hardinge in his text related by your great campion m. iewell in his defence of the apologie of the church england , parte the 6. fol. 576. printed 1567. in folio . whosoeuer departe from the catholike church they be schismatikes , yee haue departed from the catholike church of these nine hundred years , ergo yee be schismatikes , the first proposition yee will not deny , the second your selues confesse , the conclusion then must needes be true , if we say the same blame vs not neither say we that onely but also that yee ar heritikes . soe m. harding to which argument drawne from protestants owne confession m. iewel giveth the slipe , without answer , fathering in his marginall note à manifest vntruth according to his vsuall manner vpon d. harding which any one that hath the least dramme of witte may euidently perceiue . these most dearly beloued freinds i say are the motiues of my auersion frō the pretensiue reformed church of england ; and of my conversion to the catholique roman church my mother , of which i hould soe great an accoumpt and esteeme that fearing those more who can slay both body and soule , then those who haue power ouer the body only , as had i as many liues as haires on my head , i would most willingly depose them rather then be separated from christ his vnspotted spouse , the cathelique church my mother , to the end i may haue god for my father . corde creditur ad iustitiam , ore autem fit confessio ad salutem s. paul to the romans c. 10. v. 10. finis . confirma hoc deus quod operatus es in nobis . a templo sancto tuo quod est in hierusalem . oremvs . devs qui corda fidelium sancti spiritus illustratione docuisti , da nobis in eodem spiritu recta sapere , & de eiusdem semper consolatione gaudere per dominum nostrum iesum christum filium tuum qui tecum viuit & regnat in vnitate eiusdem spiritus sancti deus per omnia saecula saeculorum . amen . o my god that i had neuer offended thee in any erroneous beleefe or sinfull life , thee i say who art my only good , worthy to be loued for thine owne selfe with all possible loue ; for thy loue i firmly pourpose neuer to offēde thee more , but by thy grace to do whatsoeuer shall be necessary , and i hope in thy mercy , which by the merits of thy sonnes sacred passion o father of mercies graunt vn to me . amen . the reign of the whore discovered and her ruine seen her merchants the priests examined, and with the romish church (their elder sister) compared and found agreeable in many things ... : some queries also for those people that pay tythes, and priests that receive tythes, to consider and answer : and whereas their cry hath been loud against us the people of god called quakers, that we are jesuits, and jesuitical, in tryal they are found false accusers, and of the same stock and generation themselves ... : also the sustance of a dispute which was the 15th day of the 2d month, called april 1659, at the bridge-house in southwark, between vvilliam cooper, vvilliam vvhitaker, thomas vvoodsworth, vvieles, watkins, cradicut, and others who profess themselves ministers of christ, and some of the people call'd quakers ... / written in that which gives to see over all the popish train ... w.s. smith, william, d. 1673. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a70985 of text r33983 in the english short title catalog (wing s204a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 94 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a70985 wing s204a estc r33983 13649179 ocm 13649179 100966 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a70985) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 100966) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1046:9 or 1546:2) the reign of the whore discovered and her ruine seen her merchants the priests examined, and with the romish church (their elder sister) compared and found agreeable in many things ... : some queries also for those people that pay tythes, and priests that receive tythes, to consider and answer : and whereas their cry hath been loud against us the people of god called quakers, that we are jesuits, and jesuitical, in tryal they are found false accusers, and of the same stock and generation themselves ... : also the sustance of a dispute which was the 15th day of the 2d month, called april 1659, at the bridge-house in southwark, between vvilliam cooper, vvilliam vvhitaker, thomas vvoodsworth, vvieles, watkins, cradicut, and others who profess themselves ministers of christ, and some of the people call'd quakers ... / written in that which gives to see over all the popish train ... w.s. smith, william, d. 1673. burrough, edward, 1634-1662. following letter containing the substance of the dispute. [2], 38 p. printed for thomas simmons ..., london : 1659. attributed to william smith by nuc pre-1956 imprints. "the following letter containing the substance of the dispute ..." signed: edward burrough. item at reel 1546:2 identified as wing b6020 (number cancelled). reproduction of originals in the huntington library and edinburgh university library. eng society of friends -apologetic works. protestantism -controversial literature. a70985 r33983 (wing s204a). civilwar no the reign of the whore discovered. and her ruine seen. her merchants the priests examined, and with the romish church (their elder sister) c smith, william 1659 18214 24 0 0 0 0 0 13 c the rate of 13 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-07 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2005-07 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the reign of the vvhore discovered . and her rvine seen . this is a certain truth revealed in the light , and witnessed to by the scriptures , that the whore , ( the false church ) hath long reigned in her fenced city which cain the vagabond and murtherer built ; and long hath she been guarded and defended with cain's weapons , carnal weapons ; and long hath she sate as a queen , seeing no sorrow ▪ and long hath her golden cup passed up and down the nations , which is full of abominations of her fornication , whereby the nations have been * corrupted , and the inhabitants of the earth made drunk : but now is the hour of her judgement come , and coming ; now is her skirts lifted up , and her secret parts discovered , and discovering , and the beast on whom she rode and rides , is seen , and his colour is known , and her secret chambers of imagery is found out , and her sorceries and witchcrafts are made manifest , and many people on whom she s ; ate , and over whom she reigned , are redeemed from under her , and reigns over her in christ the power of god , which redeems , and which preserves in the redemption : oh let the redeemed of the lord praise his holy name , and walk to the praise and glory of his grace for ever ; for the day is dawned wherein hypocrisie cannot stand , nor hypocrites hide themselves , and wherein fig-leaves cannot hide nor cover from the pure eye of the lord god , which runs to and fro through the earth , though they may be sowed together by such who have eaten of the choicest fruit the tree of knowledge of good and evil yeilds ; and by such who are called orthodox men , learned men , great schollars , wise disputants , all is in valn , their labour is little worth , the lord is come down to walk in the garden , and his voice , where art thou ? is gone forth , and now is the lord come , and coming to make inquisition for blood , and to bring every man's work to judgement , and to reward every man according to his work . and now ye priests and professors in southwark , especially who are called presbyterians , whose cry is very loud against us who are called quakers , and the noise among you is , that we are the deceivers , false prophets , and wolves in sheeps clothing , and that we deny the scriptures , and are jesuits , &c. answ. must this be true because you say so ? and must the people believe you before you prove it ? nay , but you will be counted false accusers , and fierce despisers of those that are good , till you make it appear by better proofs then you could find to prove your selves ministers of christ at the late dispute , & then you can find to quit your selves from being guilty of those things you charge us withall ; for indeed we count you guilty of the same things you accuse us for , and ever shall unless you can clear your selves , and convince us to the contrary ; for we see many signs , marks , and characters upon you , and many practices among you which were never found upon , nor among the true ministers of christ , and that are not owned by the scriptures ; and this hath been signified to you already at the late dispute , and in writing also given into william cooper's hands some weeks since . and also in a printed paper , titled , the grounds and reasons why we deny the teachers of the world ; which hath been printed six years since , and no answer hath appeared from you the national priests , who are concerned therein . and now seeing william cooper and some others of your brethren affirmed publikely , that we ( the people called quakers ) are jesuits , and jesuitical , and proffered to prove their affirmation , ( in the bitterness of their spirits ) therefore let us reason a little with you , and prove and examine you , that the people may see your clothing or outside ( if not your inside ) to be jesuitical at least ; and let us and all people know how you can quit your selves from being of that popish train ; and as for us , let our integrity and innocency plead for us , otherwise we shall say nothing for our selves , for the lord doth plead our cause . are not you like the jesuits and popish priests , first , in your being made fit for your call to your ministry . secondly , in your call . thirdly in your going forth , fourthly , in your work called to . fifthly , in your maintenance in your work . sixthly , in your doctrines , practices , places of worship , and manners in worship . if you say nay , make it appear not onely in words , but in fruits ; not fruits of violence i do not mean ; but fruits of the spirit of god , if you know it , and answer . first , are you not like the jesuits and popish priests in preparing your selves , and making your selves fit for your call to your ministry you profess ? are you not prepared and fitted at those schools and colledges first ordained by the pope ? doth not learning some natural languages and arts , as logick , and rhetorick , and such like , make you fit for your call ? and are not the popish priests and jesuits made fit after this manner , in such places , and by such means , for their call ? then are you nor like them in this thing ? and was ever any of the ministers of christ fitted and prepared after this manner that he sent forth ? secondly , are you not called , appointed , and ordained by men to preach ? and do you not count that your call , if you have the approbation of some that are counted orthodox men , which have learned the natural tongues and arts that are taught in the popish schools and colledges ? and are not the popish priests and jesuits called and approved after this manner ? and are you not like them in this also ? was ever christ's ministers called by man , or approved by man ? thirdly , in your yoing forth to preach are you like the ministers of christ ? do you go gorth freely , and minister freely from city to city , and nation to nation , as the ministers of christ did ? have you received freely ? have not you bought what you have with money ? and do you not strive to get the best market place you can to sit down into sell it again , even at a deer rate ? and are not the popish old mas-houses your market-places , where you abide many times for term of life ? are not you the creepers the apostle spoke of , that should creep into houses , and lead silly women captive , laden with sin , led aside with divers lusts , ever learning , and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth ? are not all your followers such ? doth not your fruits make you appear to be such house-creepers as were in the apostles dayes ? is not this the popish priests manner ? do not they go forth in this way ? are not you careless watchmen , and dreaming prophets , and idle shepherds ? do you not say we are wolves ? and have we not had meetings several years in many of your folds , ( called parishes ) in & over which you count your selves good wattchmen , and true shepherds ? but when did either of you , or any of you parish-masters ( who would have others count you true shepherds ) so much as come to save your sheep from being drawn or taken from , or out of your fold ? and have you not lost many of the best and soberest of your flock ? have you cared naturally for your flock , or naturally for the fleece ? have you shewed your selves like true shepherds , or like hirelings in this thing ? do you think you are wronged to be called and counted careless , dreaming , false , idle shepherds , and such who want the spiritual weapons , and true shepherds crook ? put aside whips , and stocks , and prisons , and compulsive laws , and what can you do ? where 's your spiritual weapons ? where 's your shepherds crook then ? if you lose these weapons , what can you do to defend your selves or flock ? and if you put away the wisdom which man teacheth , and which man hath taught you , as natural tongues , and arts , what can you say ? is your armour the whole armour of light ? and have you the sword of the spirit ? and do you speak as the spirit gives you utterance , as christ's ministers did ? or do you not gain utterance as the popish priests and jesuits gains it ? and have you not bought the art of uttetance ? and yet are not many of you so dull and sottish , that if you should lose your notes ( which i have seen some of you craftily hide betwixt the leaves of your bibles that the people might not see them ) would you not lose your method , matter and utterance , and so have little to say ? why do you endeavour to hide your notes ? and do not some of you carry a bible on purpose up with you into your pulpits to hide your notes ? and are there not some of you that have * note books bound and painted in form of a bible , when there is no printed letter in it ? now could you not preach better without your bible , then without your notes and note-book ? why do you not leave your bibles at home ? do you bring it onely for a cloak , custom & fashion ? and is not this the reason why people cry against us for denyers of the scriptures , because we do not hold a bible in our hands when we preach to people , and because we follow not your fashion , and have notes to tell the people the chapter and verse ? did christs ministers go forth after this manner with notes in their pockets , or in a book , to tell them what to preach , and how to preach ? and did they ever sit down and continue in one place for term of life , unless they could hear of a people that would give them more money , and greater hire ? whose example do you follow in this , if not the popish priests ? come priests , let the people hear your answer . fourthly , in your work called to ; you say 't is to preach the gospel , and the cry is among poor , blind , ignorant people , you are ministers of the gospel ; but are you not ministers of the letter ? and do you not call matthew , mark , luke and john's writings , the gospel ? and do you not take the letter for your ground-work , which you call your text , and then by your art which you have learn'd at school , raise that you call your doctrines , points , reasons , uses , motives , and trials , and such like ? now is not your preaching , or making an hours speech , artificial ? and is not your work herein like the popish priests ? and are you not very unlike the ministers of christ in this your work ? did any of the latter prophets take the former prophets words to speak from ? or did any of the latter apostles and ministers of christ , take the former apostles and ministers words for their ground-work ? did not they all minister according as they had received from god ? and was not their work and ministry for this end , to turn people to gods gift in them , from the darkness to the light , from the power of satan to god ? but is your work so ? do not you turn people's minds to something without them ? and do not your selves hate the light , and so are you like to turn people from darkness ? and are you not under the power of satan you selves ? and do you not teach the poor ignorant people , that 't is impossible to be freed from under the power of satan , and that they must never expect to be freed from committing of sin while living in the body ? and are not those under the power of the devil that doth the works of the devil , and obeys his will ? are not those that commit sin the servants of sin , and free from righteousness ? is not he that commits sin , of the devil ? then to what end and purpose is all your labour , pains , and study , and preaching , and praying , &c. if people must always be servants of sin , and slaves to the devil , and never be redeemed from fin and iniquity ? what spiritual things do you sowe to poore people ? what gospel do you preach ? what glad tydings do you bring ? is this your glad tydings , that people must live in sin , and under the power of the devil ? are you not miserable ministers ? have you not brought another gospel besides that which the apostles preached ? is not the gospel glad tydings to such as are weary and heavy laden with sin , and in bondage to the devil ? and is not the gospel the power of god ? and is not christ the power of god ? and is not he appointed to save his people from their sin , and not in their sins ? have you not one thing still to learn of the pope , and that is , to know where the time and place of cleansing is ? how come you to miss preaching up a purgatory , or place of cleansing after this life , seeing your doctrine and principles admits of no such place and time in this world ? but are not the papists and you both deceived in this thing ? doth not the tree lie as it falls ? and judgement finde as death leaves ? and no unclean thing enter the kingdome ? come priests , let us and the people here your answer . fifthly , as to your maintenance in this your work ; how can you quit your selves from being like the papist priest and jesuits ? are you any thing like the ministers of christ in this thing also ? have not the pope , cardinals , and bishops , been the foundation of your setled standing-maintenance by tithes , gleab-lands , easter-reckonings , midsummer dues , mortnaries and smoke penys , and such like ? are you not beholding to the pope & popish laws for this your way of maintenance ? and why do you deny the pope ? is it because he hath no authority in this nation to give you any more means , nor to take from you what you have ? is it not a great sign that the root of all evil is in you , ( to wit ) covetousness , that you have swallowed down so much blood , liberty and goods of many of the poor innocent lambs of christ within these few years , because for conscience sake they could not put into your mouths ? have you not prepared war against the innocent people of the lord , who living in his pure fear , did not dare to maintain you in your idolatry , in your lightness , pride and high-mindedness ? how many of you have appeared like a troop of robbers in taking , and causing to be taken away violently poor peoples ports , and pans , and kettles , and dishes from them , sometimes not leaving them things necessary to make ready their food in ; and bedding , and clothes , and oxen , and cows , and horses , and harness , and barns of wheat , and cart-loads of hey and corn , and their bodies also cast into prison ? hath not this been your work in this nation ? hath not the lord raised a patient and harmless people to try you , which have not striven against you in their wills , that you might manifest what was in your hearts , notwithstanding your talk of christianity ; have we not seen the murtherer offer a sacrifice ? and the prophane person weep for the blessing ? and the children of the devil call god father ? hath not our eyes seen this ? and is it not manifest if the lord god , which is the higher power , unto whom our souls are subject , did not over-power , & chain , and fetter , and break the horns of the wicked , no less then our lives and blood would satisfie ; for had not you ( to wit , you especially called presbyterian priests ) rather sit as a popish synod or inquisition , then in the spirit of meekness , lowlinss , and soundness in words , in life and conversation , and scripture-example ; prove your selves ministers of christ by your fruits & effects ? was ever the true ministers of the gospel in any age or generation since the days of christ , the son of the living god , manifest at jerusalem , maintained as you are maintained , by the ruine of others ? did they ever take any thing violently from any man ? nay , did ever they take or receive any thing at all from those that denied their doctrine , and that would not receive nor own them as ministers of christ ? what , are you quite without shame ? are you so greedy of filthy lucre , that you do not care how much you manifest your shame , and uncover your nakedness to all people ? if you keep a flock , eat the milk the flock will give you ; if you plant a vinyard , eat the fruit the vinyard will yeild you ; should you covet your neighbours goods , and take them away because you say he is a heretick ? should you rob your neighbours vinyard because you cannot have fruit enough to satisfie your covetous desires out of that you have planted ? should you go reap your neighbours field , because where you have sown there is little come up but briars and thorns ? if you do thus , may not we , yea & all people , count you greedy of filthy lucre , covetous persons , and robbers ? would you have better come up then you sow ? they that preach the gospel , lives of the gospel , and they never did , nor need petition the powers of the earth to establish a livelyhood upon them ; but you smell much of popery in this thing , and you have no example in the holy scriptures to justifie you , but the romish black train is your example , and therefore we deny you , and cannot but count of you as you are , and in so doing we wrong you not ; but have not you wrong'd us , and falsly accused us , and charged us to be like , or one with those whose example you are found in , and whose steps you follow , to wit , false prophets , false teachers , popish priests and jesuits ? you shall bear your own judgement . sixthly , concerning your doctrine , practices , places , and manner of worship . are you not found , and do we nor find you in the popish doctrine , and jesuitical practices , and popish mass-houses , and in the manner of their worship in some things , and in some other things of later invention which the scriptures doth not own nor justifie , neither did the ministers of christ allow of ? if so , may vve not count you such as do not deny the popish vvayes , places , and manners , but lives in them , and by them ? is it not a popish doctrine and practice to oppose the light within , wherewith christ hath enlightened every man that is come into the world , and to teach some other way to attain the knowledge of god , besides the light which shines in the heart , notwithstanding the scripture testifies , that the light which shines in the heart must give man the knowledge of god in the face of jesus christ ? and is it not the papists doctrine and practice to deny revelation and inspiration , and the immediate power of god present now , as of old ? and is not this your doctrine and practice also ? doth not the scripture say , or is it not written , that there is none that knows the father but the son , and he to whom the son reveals him ? so do not the papists herein ( and you with them ) deny that the knowledge of god is attainable , seeing you deny the way wherein , the manner how , & the thing by which he is known , seen , and revealed , to wit , the light within ? and if god be not known onely , and alone , by the revelation of christ , and you and the papists deny revelation , and say it is ceased , then by what means do you expect to attain the knowledge of god , which is life eternal ? and how do you that deny inspiration and immediate power from god , believe the scriptures , wherein is promised many glorious things to be enjoyed by the children of the lord , as the pouring forth of his spirit upon his sons & daughters ? and how do you own the new covenant , the fear in the heart , and the spirit of the lord in the inward parts ? and you that deny the immediate voice , power , and presence of the lord , , as of old , how do you believe christs words , who said to his disciples , lo , i will be with you to the end of the world ? and is not the presence of christ the immediate power of god ? and where two or three are gathered together in his name , is he not in the midst ? and is not he and his father one , whose abode is with his people ? but is not this too wonderful for hirelings without a meaning ? and why do you talk of the scriptures for your rule ? is it not for ends to yourselves ? doth the scriptures your pretended rule , justifie you any more then they justifie the pope , cardinals , bishops , jesuits , fryers , monks , and popish priests ? vvhy do you talk of three persons , or trinity ? hath not the pope learnt you that also ? doth the scripture speake anywhere of three persons ? and where had you that word sacrament , and the word merit ? had you not these from the papists ? and concerning your places wherein you commonly perform your publike vvorship ; who founded and named them for you ? did not the papists ? as st. mary magdalens church , st. thomas his church , st. stephen's church , st. peter's church , st. paul's church : did not the very same spirit that was cast out of mary magdalen , and that stoned stephen , and that murthered peter and paul , build and give names to those steeple-houses ? which you have suffered , if not taught the people , to call churches , and the houses of god , insomuch that it hath been a great crime among poor ignorant people to hear them called otherwise , & is stil , especially in some places of this nation : were they not the popes mass-houses , and places of their idolatrous worship ? and what rule have you in the holy scriptures for any to worship the true god in these idolatrous dens , and popish houses , and to call them such , and such a saints church , especially without alteration in form , in name and esteem ? did the children of israel do so ? did the primitive christians do so ? vvhere is your example ? and who made george a saint ? and katherine , and olives , & mary overies , and giles , and gregory , &c. that your churches are called by their names ? are they not of the popes making ? are you not ashamed that people should call those places churches ? and then concerning your manners and worship in these places ; is it not your manner before your worship begins , to ring bells to call your hearers ( your brethren ) together ? and whom do you imitate ? and who learnt you this but the papists ? and why do you deny them in words , and imitate them in practice ? and is it not your manner to get an hour-glass to preach , and pray by , and to sing by ? and have you not the chief seats in the assemblies ? the popish train hath so ; and are you not like them ? do not they worship , and preach , and pray , and sing by the hour ? then do you not agree with them ? did ever the true christians and christian ministers do so ? and why must you have a soft cushion with silken jobs at the corners to lean on to read your studied , devised , framed artificial sermon or speech to the people ? and by what order was your pulpit or high place hung with imbroydered cloath , and some other of your stalls lined with cloath , when others want it to wear , even of your own heap , and sect and fold ? who are you like in this ? have you any such president in the holy scriptures ? what ? and where is your rule and example ? if you must have a cushion , cut off the jobs ; and if you must have a pulpit , take off your imbroydered cloaths , and cloathe your brethren which are within your own parish , and of your own flesh ; and do not let them go up and down begging for clothes and food , while your pulpits and stalls , or other chief seats , are clothed , imbroydered , and laced ; what manner of christianity and brotherly love is there among you towards one another ? and how come you by this manners among you , that he that hath a gold ring , and costly apparel , and is called a rich man , must have a sumptuous seat in the principal place ; and others in vile rayment can scarce have a place to sit on , but must stand afar off ? where i say did you learn this manners ? did you learn it of the church of christ , or the pope and his church ? and is it not your manner and custom to respect persons , places , times , dayes & things ? doth not the heathen so ? and the papists so ? then who may we compare you with , if not with those ? did ever any of the primitive christians do so ? was it their manner to respect the person of him or her that had a gold ring or costly apparel ? or was it their manner to respect or cry up the jewish synagogues , or heathen idolatrous temple , or any particular place or house whatsoever , as the onely place of worship , and call it a church ? or did the church of god in the dayes of moses and the prophets , when the lord had given them victory over the heathen their enemies , did they ( i say ) preserve the heathenish idolatrous places of worship , as altars , groves and temples , and teach the people to call them churches ? was it not as lawful for those places to be called a church , as 't is for these popish dens ( builded with observation east and west , with a picture of a cock and a cross upon it , as the papists devised and appointed ) to be called a church ? did not the ministers of christ gather people out of them , and bear their testimony against them , and all temples made with hands ? did not the lord by his hammer , and battel-ax of war , break down , burn , and utterly destroy those places , and images , and groves , set up and consecrated by the idolaters ? did not the lord begin such a work in this nation some years since ? and hath some instruments proved like jehu , begun in zeal , and ended in covetousness , which is idolatry , and hath not regarded the law of god withall their heart , and shall that frustrate the work and purpose of the lord ? is he not raising others to accomplish his work , and fulfil his decree against the adulterous generation , of what name or sect soever ? and down in esteem , if not in form , must the popish mass-houses come , ( and which is now the priests market place , and called a church ) and down must your bells , and pulpit-embroydered cloathes , and such like trumpery come , which hath been set up in the time of popery , and since the cry was , who is able to make war with the beast ? and then is it not your manner to respect times , dayes , and things ? are you not like the papists in this also ? and have you not learnt of the pope , bishops , cardinals , jesuits priests , fryers and monks , and heathens , how , and what to call your times , dayes , months , and quarters , &c. have they not all heathenish and popish names ? the holy scriptures you are not ashamed to say is your rule , but in what one thing do you walk according to your pretended rule ? unless you mean the popish & heathenish scriptures , or writings , & call them your holy rule ; if you mean those , you shall be believed , because you are found walking thereafter ; but if you mean the writings which holy men wrote as they were moved by the holy spirit , we know you are lyars , and cannot believe you , for they never learnt you to follow the manners and customs of the heathen nor papists , as you do , in respecting , and naming , or calling your times , dayes , months and things ; the scripture of truth teacheth to call days and months after this manner , first day , second day , third day , fourth day , fifth day , sixth day , seventh day . first month , second month , third month , and so to the twelfth month . the heathen and papists , and their writings , teacheth to call the first day of the week sunday , or dies solis , the day of the sun ; the second day monday , or dies lun● , the day of the moon , or the moons day ; the third day tuesday ; & the fourth wednesday ; the fifth thursday ; sixth fryday ; the seventh saturday ; according to the names of the 7. planets wch the heathen and papists talk so much of . and the first month they call march , the second april , and so on to the eighth month , which is called october , which signifieth the eighth month , november the ninth month , december the tenth month , from the lattin words , octo , novem , decem , eight , nine , and ten ; and the eleventh month you call january , and the twelfth month february . now do you not prefer the heathenish and popish traditions , rules , customs , manners , and writings , before , and above what is delivered , prescribed , and taught in the writings of the holy men of god ? so that it is come to pass by your so doing , that if people are brought to call daies , and months , and times , and places , and persons , according as those did who had the spirit of god , which the scriptures teacheth and witnesseth unto ; i say , when people are brought to this , they become a hissing , and a wonder among you , and are counted nice , and frivolous , and unmannerly , and when we speak and write of hours , dayes , and months , as they are recorded in the scripture , people cannot tell what we mean , nor how to understand us , nor when such a time , hour day or month is , but will rather mock and jeer at first hour , first day , first month &c. and will have no such reckoning of times in their temporal , civil , or spiritual accompts ; these are your auditors your disciples , or schollars ; as you have learnt , you teach ; as you the priests are , so are the people , imitators of the papists and heathen in this , as well as other things ; and the christians life , words , manners and behaviour , you are out of , and strangers to ; and may we not justly with the heathen and papists compare you , whose example you follow ? and then concerning the manner of your publike divine worship , ( as you call it ) have you not this manner and custom as the first part of your worship , to sing david's psalms in rime and meeter , divised , or turned thereinto by poets or musicianers , as thomas sternhold , and john hopkins , and others , with apt notes to sing them withall , before your prayer , and after your prayer ; before your sermon , and after your sermon , of all the people together ; is not this your own invention ? was there any such manner of singing in the church of christ ? you say ; let us sing to the praise and glory of god ; and you keep an officer to read the psalm to people , which are some drunkards , some covetous , some proud , some defrauders of their brethren , dissemblers , double ▪ dealers , some adulterers and unclean persons ; some jesters , and idle talkers ; some light , and vain , wild , and wanton ; some scornful high-minded , and mockers ; some disobedient to parents , unthankful , and unholy , and of rude , unchristian behaviour ; of such consisteth your church ; and are not the steeplehouse-singers such ? and can such persons sing to the praise and glory of god ? or are they in a state and condition fit to sing at all ? doth not weeping and howling , mourning , sorrow , and lamentation , and wo from the dreadful lord god of heaven and of earth , belong to such singers ? singing with grace in the heart unto the lord , we own ; but singing with wickedness , with pride and covetousness in the heart , we utterly deny ; singing with the spirit and with understanding , we own ; but your singing by letter , with musical notes and tunes , customarily , ignorantly , without understanding , we wholly disown , and bear our testimony against it as abomination in the sight of the lord , and it was never ordained nor appointed in , nor by the true church ; but it hath been ordained and appointed by the false church , the whore , and her merchants , in the dark night of apostacy , since the dayes of the apostles , and since the true church fled in to the wilderness ; and is not this singing of david's prayers , mournings , sighings , complainings , and cryes unto the lord , and his praises , rejoicings , and magnifying the lord , and such like conditions as david was in ; i say , is not your singing of these things , like the papists singing ? have you any more rule in the scripture for your singing , then the papists have for their singing ? and hath it not been one of the whores later invention and addition to your worship , even about the time of queen elizabeths reign in this nation ? but the same pure , eternal light which appeared in the hearts of some about the beginning of our english wars , and manifested much of the popish trumpery which was then in being , of which quiristers and singing-boys in white surplices was one ; i say , the same pure , eternal light hath manifested your singing and noise to be as abominable in the ears of the lord , as theirs , and to be denyed and witnessed against ; for you have no more rule in the scripture for your singing david's prayers , then the quiresters and singers then had to sing the prayer which christ taught his disciples , which they called pater noster ; which of all you mass-house singers are , or ever were what you sing , as when you sing , o lord i am no● puft in mind , and that your eys are not scornful ? are you not of such a proud and hard heart , and puft up mind , and scornful eyes , many of you , that you will scarce look upon , nor walk with , nor relieve those that are poor , though they be of your own church ? then do you not sing a lye in this ? and is that to the praise and glory of god ? surely you dare not say that god is glorified with a noise of lyes ; not that david's psalms are lyes , but you being not in the same state , condition , and life that david was in , they are lyes in your mouths : david said , mine eys gush out with rivers of water , because they keep not thy law , i am afflicted , & ready to dye from my youth up ; while i suffer thy terrors , i am d●stracted , i am like a bottle in the smoak ; i am like an owle in the desert ; i am like a pellican in the wilderness ; i am like a sparrow alone upon the house top ; all my friends and acquaintance hath forsaken me . this david said , and you sing these words ignorantly , customarily , never witnessing the same state & condition , so they are lyes in your mouths , and god is not glorified , but dishonored by you in this part of your worship ; and your singing , and the papists , and quiristers , and surplice-boys singing , is abomination alike in the sight of the lord , and in the sight of his servants who are redeemed from amongst you , and from under the great whore , which sits upon the waters ; but the lord our god is taking her seat from under her , and into the pit she ( with her golden cup full of sorceries , witchcrafts , and fornications ) shall fall , and none shall be able to deliver her , neither can she save her self , nor those that hath been , and still are made drunk with her sorceries and deceiveable ways of unrighteousness , of which this trick , craft , and art of singing is one ; james said , is any merry , let him sing psalms ; he wrote these words to saints ; but hear what he wrote to such as you , cleanse your hands ye sinners , and purifie your hearts ye double-minded ; be afflicted , and mourn , and weep ; let your laughter be turned to mourning , and your joy into heaviness . such as these hath no cause to be merry , who are sinners , whose hands are uncleansed , and whose hearts are unpurified , and whose minds are double ; and are not all ye mass-house-singers in whole christendome ( so called ) such ? but the lord hath redeemed , and is redeeming many thousands from among you , babylonish singers , and hath brought , and is bringing them to godly sorrow , which leadeth to repentance never to be repented of , and afterwards to the joy which shall never have an end ; and your rejoicing and singing which is carnal , customary , and formal , before any godly sorrow for sin you know , and before you are lead to that repentance which is never to be repented of ; i say , this your rejoicing and singing which is before repentance , must of necessity end in sorrow and anguish of heart : the lord grant you such sorrow which leadeth to repentance in time , before eternity seizeth upon you , that weeping , and howling , and gnashing of teeth be not your portion for ever ; for if the prayers of the unregenerate , ungodly , or wicked are abomination to the lord , is their praises and singing any better ? is praise comely in the mouth of a fool ? and are not they fools that lives in iniquity , & yet rejoiceth ? consider this ye priests , ye jesuits , and popish christians , and let the witness for god in your conscience , and in all consciences answer whether ye are not all alike . concerning your praying after you have done singing . the scripture saith , i will that men pray every where , lifting up holy hands , without wrath or doubting ; but what hands do you lift up ? are your hands holy , & c ? have not you wrath , envy , and malice in your hearts , and doubtings , and waverings in your minds ? is not your prayings like the popish priests and papists prayings ? and like the scribes and pharisees prayings ? did christ ever teach you to pray any more then he taught them ? are you his disciples , or schollars , or followers any more then they ? what do you learn of him ? and whither do you follow him ? can you say that he hath taught you to pray as he taught his disciple to pray ? have you not learnt to pray of some other besides christ ? and do not you ( instead of being led to pray by the spirit of christ ) pray customarily ? you know when you have sung out your psalm , you make and frame a prayer , or else the people will wonder at you ; so instead of waiting and staying for the moving and leadings of the holy spirit to pray by , you wait for the end of the psalm , and then you move and stir up your selves , and makes a mock of the movings of the spirit of god ; and so instead of praying by the spirit , you turn up your hour-glass , and prayes by that ; so that you know how long to pray , and how long to preach , and how long to sing by your guide , the hour-glass , and your eye is often towards it for direction ; and when 't is a pretty deal run , you will tell the people you see the time is far spent , therefore you must hasten ; and when your glass is out , you tell the people the time is spent , and you see the time is past , and therefore you shall conclude : oh what do ye mean ye priests , that ye are not yet ashamed of this divice and popish invention in this day of the light 's breaking forth in the hearts of people ! ye search the scriptures which you falsly call your rule , and you say you are ministers of christ , and succeeders of the apostles , but in trial you are found lyars , and your pretended rule ( the holy scriptures ) witnesseth against you as transgressors , out of the life of the holy men that gave them forth , wresting their words to serve your private ends to your own ( and others that are led by you ) destruction , and out of the apostles and ministers of christs steps , life , manners , behaviour , doctrine and practices ▪ where is it written in the holy scriptures , and which of the apostles and ministers of christ appointed and ordained that their succeeders should pray , and preach , and sing by an hour-glass , and to meet together by the sound of the bells to worship ? where is that written ? and which of the ministers of christ appointed bells to call their brethren together ? in which of the christian churches before the apostacy , was there hour-glasses , and bells , and pulpits with embroydered cloath about them , and lined stalls for the rich , with a lock and key to keep the poor out , and many such like devices which are found amongst you ? i say , where is your rule● where is your example for any of these and such like things in the scriptures of the holy men of god ? come priests , look out the chapter and verse , if you can , and let us know where it is ; until then , we shall conclude , yea , and it is concluded already , that you walk not , nor worship not as the christians before the apostacy did , neither have you them for your example or pattern ; but that your example and pattern is the false romish church your elder sister , and the great whore your mother , we know , and the beast she rides on , we have seen , which is of a scarlet colour , and the blood she hath drunk of the prophets , saints , and martyrs , the lord is enquiring after , and making inquisition for , and a bed of torment she shall be laid on ; hearken and rejoice ye saints , ye children of the most high , a bed ( which betokeneth a place of rest ) shall be the whores place of torment , her resting place shall torment her ; alas ! alas ! weeping , and wailing , and mourning over her , shall be the greatest comfort her merchants that hath been made rich by her , and her children she hath delicately brought up , shall yeild her ; yea all ye ship-masters , and all ye company in ships , and saylors , and kings , and merchants , shall stand afar off for fear of her torment , and cast dust on their heads , and cry , weeping , and wailing , saying , alas ! alas ! that great city , wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea , by reason of her costliness , for in one hour is she made desolate : rejoice over her thou heaven , and ye holy apostles and prophets , for god hath avenged you on her , you have seen the angel take up the great stone , and give the sign of her perpetual downfal ; and a great voice of much people in heaven is heard , saying , halelujah , salvation , and glory , and honor , and power unto the lord our god , for true and righteous are his judgements , for he hath judged the great whore which did corrupt the earth with her fornication , and hath avenged the blood of his servants . and again they said , halelujah , &c. and now you national priests , are not you the ship-masters , or parish-masters , merchants , or traders by sea here spoken of ? and the gathering together of the waters he called sea ; and the beast with seven heads and ten horns rose out of the sea ; the wicked are like a troubled sea : and the waters thou sawest where the whore sitteth , are peoples , kindreds , tongues , and nations : so the sea is waters , and the waters is peoples , multitudes , tongues and nations , whereon the whore your mother hath long sate , and in , or among whom you her merchants have built your ships , and set up your trade by the authority of the beast which rose out of the same place the whore sate on ; he that hath wisdom , let him understand : i say , by the authority of this beast who hath seven heads , ten horns , ten crowns upon his horns ; & upon his heads the name of blasphemy , unto whom the dragon gave his power , have you , and all parish-masters and others of the whores choice merchants in whole christendom sate and advanced your trade above , and beyond all the crafts-mens trade beside in the whole world : and this may appear plain to the view of all people , if these few particulars following are considered . first , you have got a market-place where none must sell any wares but your selves , though it be never so much better then yours ; neither must any come into your market-place to give freely to poor people , whose souls are ready to starve for want of the bread of life , notwithstanding they buy of your deceitful wares . secondly , you have had , and some of your brethren still have a compulsive law to compel and constrain all people within such a compass or quarter to come to your market-place and buy of you , and none other . thirdly , whether those people within such a compass , or quarter , or parish , come to your market , or no , or receive any of your merchandize , notwithstanding you will make them pay as much as if they did , or else you will take , or cause to be taken from them violently ( it may be ) three , four , or five times as much as the price was you first set upon your commodities . fourthly , though your merchandize be never , so deceitful and insufficient , yet none must refuse them , neither will you bate of your price ; and if any come to see the deceitfulness and insufficiency of what you sell at a very deer rate , and declare against it , that people might not be deceived and defrauded always with deceitful words , and devillish doctrines , you wil sue such at the law for slanderers , and get one of the beasts horns that hath a crown upon it , to grant you 100. l. damage , or some other punishment , as whip , or prison , or banishment , or life , ( if ye can get it ) for the whore loves blood , and so doth her merchants and children . fifthly , another thing that makes your trade exceed all the crafts-mens trade beside in the whole world , is , that when poor people have bought your merchandize , and paid you , or at least are liable to pay you , you take them home again in your pockets , or bibles , or note-books , and lay them up in your ware-house , to wit , your liberary , and as you see occasion , and opportunity , you carry them to market again , and they wil yeild you as much as they did at the first ; and yet after you have sold your imagery work over and over , you can trim it , and dress it a little , and put the title doctor of divinity to it , or batchellor of divinity , or mr. william , or mr. john such a one , ministers of god's word at such a church , in such a place , and find a chapman , some bookseller , or printer , or other , to give you money for it : much like this might be mentioned , but this is sufficient to let all people which are not quite blind see wherein this whores merchants trade exceeds all other arts , crafts , and trades , in the whole world . and also the reason may here be seen wherefore these parish-masters , and others of mystery babylons merchants strives and petition that their trade may be upheld even in this nation , under this notion , propagate or hold up the gospel ; when if they would speak as they mean , it is thus , propagate , hold up , or maintain our mothers authority , by which authority we have had a good trade a great while , and our profits hath been great , and our incombs sure ; and let the romish churches our elder sisters , her institutions , ordinations , customs , manners , practices and places stand , else we shal have no certain trade ; for if we lose our elder sisters law which gives us tythes , and that compels people to buy our gospel , we shal be undone , peoples hearts are so hard they wil give us little freely , though they have been , and stil are our auditors , and we have taught them some ten , some twenty , thirty or forty years , yet we are afraid if we lose our elder sisters law , that those that have been our constant customers would hate us much of our price , and those that do not like our doctrine and church-discipline , and our chargeable gospel , will give us nothing at all ; is not this the very language of your hearts , whose cry is , propagate the gospel ? let that which searcheth your hearts and discerns the secret intents thereof , the light of christ in your consciences answer ; for the gospel is christ the power of god , which propagates , or holds up all things , and 't is ignorance and blasphemy to cry and petition to an arm of flesh to propagate this gospel , but 't is another gospel , that they who have brought it are accursed that wants propagating ; and this shall all your merchants of babylon know , in the dreadfull day of the lord our god , when all the blood you have drunk , and tortures , and racks , whips and prisons , stocks and inquisitions , and other carnal weapons you have used to propagate your gospel , shall rise up in judgement against you ; then will ye cry to the rocks , and the mountains to fall upon you , to hide you from the wrath of the lamb . and now is the wondrfull day at hand , wherein the wolves , bears , and lions shall be afraid and seek to hide themselves from the presence of the lamb . consider this all ye hirelings , that rend and tear , and make a prey upon the innocent lambs of christ for to serve your own bellies , and covetous , unchristian , greedy desires , how greatly do you dishonour the name of christ , in calling your selves his ministers ? have not you and all your brethren , the popish christians in whole christendome sent an ill savour throughout the nations and regions round about you ? yea and many of those you count heathens shal rise up in judgment against you , even against you who have the sheeps cloathing , the prophets words , christs vvords , the apostles words , but inwardly ravened from the spirit of god in your selves , and so have appeared devouring wolves , and destroyers of the sheeps life , & scatterers of the flock of god , hear the word of the lord by the mouth of his prophet ezekiel against such as you , wo be to the shepherds of israel , that do feed themselves , should not the shepherds feed the flocks ? ye eat the fat , and ye cloth you with the wool , ye kill them that are fed , but ye feed not the flock ; the diseased haue ye not strengthened , neither have ye healed that which was sick , neither have ye bound up that which was broken , neither have ye brought again that which was driven away , neither have ye sought that which was lost , but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them , &c. ezech. ch. 34. there is much in these words ; and this hath been your work , as fully and as truly as ever it was the false shepherds work in the time of the prophet ezechiel , and now is the lord manifestly appearing to be against ye shepherds , and requiring his flock at your hand , and is causing you to cease from feeding his flock , and also from feeding your selves of his flock , and delivering them from your mouths , and gathering them from all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day , according to ezechiels prophesie ; and this is the lords own work , in this his mighty day , and all the hirelings and wolvish shepherds in whole christendome shall not be able to withstand and hinder the accomplishing , and fulfilling of this the lords purpose , though gog and magog , beast and false prophet , ioyn together ; yet the lamb and the saints shall have the victorie , and the plagues upon the seat of the great whore shall be poured , and the tongue of the egyptian sea shall be dryed up , and the waters which hath overflowed the highest mountain shall abate and be dried up , and the ship-masters , the parish-masters trade shall fail : and thou o mount seir , because thou hast had a perpetuall hatred , and hast shed the blood of the children of israel by force of the sword in the time of their calamity , in the time that their iniquity had an end ; therefore as i live saith the lord god i will prepare thee unto blood , and blood shall pursue thee , sith thou hash not-hated blood , even blood shall pursue thee , &c. this is the portion of cain , who was a murtherer from the beginning , whose sacrifice is the fruit of that ground which is cursed , and which the dew of heaven never descended upon , nor the blessing of the most high was ever appointed for ; and out of this ground , out of this earth , in which cain is a vagabond , springeth and ariseth that spirit that can offer a sacrifice , and murther when he hath done , and that this spirit is manifest in and among you the nationall priests is very evident , and sufficiently proved by your own fruits , acts and deeds within these few years , yea and the cry of innocent blood hath entred the ears of the lord against you , even against you both priests and people , who notwithstanding your pretences of worshipping god , have envy , the root of murther in your hearts , and violence in your hands , and while you regard iniquity in your hearts , your very prayers are abomination and stinks in the nostrils of the lord . 't is the whore and her merchants that ▪ thirsteth after the blood of creatures under the notion of hereticks , and that murthers men about matters of religion ; the christians and christian ministers never did so , neither did they wrestle with flesh and blood , but you and the papists are found wrestling with flesh , and destroying mens lives , and not saving them , and you shall have your reward together according to your work . a few queries for all that own tythes due to the present priesthood , and for the priesthood that takes them to consider and answer . 1. to vvhat end do you the people pay tithes ? and to vvhat end do you the priests take tithes ? is your end according to the lavv of god that gave the tithes to the first priesthood ? then people vvhy do you not see them improved to that end ? and priests vvhy do you not let them be improved to that end ? and vvas not the end vvherefore tithes vvas given , that the widovvs , strangers , and fatherlesse might be relieved and maintained by them as vvell as the priests ? and had not the widovvs , strangers , and fatherlesse as much right to the tithes , as the leviticall priests had ? and had they not their maintenance out of them , so that there need not be a beggar among them ? was not the priests gates to stand open , that the widovvs , strangers and fatherlesse might be relieved . 2. did not that lavv of god that gave tithes to this end , ordain a place to put them in , a store-house , ( into vvhich store-house the people brought them , else they robbed god ) and vvere they not to be taken out of this store-house , as the widows , strangers , fatherlesse and priests had need of them ? and was not this store-house called gods house ? read mal. 3. 10. how comes it to passe , if not by the order of the pope , bishops and cardinals , and the rest of the popish train , that there is no store-house in whole christendome ( so called ) to put the tithes of the land in , nor no widows , strangers and fatherless relieved according to their necessities out of the tithes , but pope , chief magistrate and priests , have , and would have them all brought into their own house ? and how many of their gates stand open , that the widows , strangers and fatherlesse , and poore , might passe freely in and take part of the tithes with them ? do they not more frequently lye begging at their gates when they are shut ? and lye about the streets begging and crying for bread , and at the steeple-houses there is a hideous , dolefull noise for bread many times ? was it so in the time of the law , which commanded tithes from the people ? did not the lord make the tithes , give the poore , the widows , the strangers , the fatherlesse , and priests also enough ? and now people that pay tithes , and priests that receive tithes , whom do you imitate and follow , if not the popish train ? are not you unlike both jews and christians ? did the true christians ever pay , or receive tithes ? 3. is not this a monstrous priesthood , that hath rose up since the dayes of the apostles , who denied the first priesthood , that devours and impropriates all the tithes to themselves , and will not allow the poore , the widows , strangers , and fatherlesse any share with them of the tithes , though they may be ready to starve for vvant of food and raiment ? is not this monstrous priesthood in christendom ( vvho call themselves ministers of the gospel ) exceedingly stained and laden with the blood of the poor , of the widows , of the strangers , and fatherless ? and you the people , how can you be clear in paying your tithes to such a priesthood , that do not let their gates stand open , nor have no store-house , nor that do not improve them to that end , that they were improved to , in the time of the law ? are not all your tithes given and received to a worse end , notwithstanding you say you are christians , and live in the glorious day of the gospel , then they were given and received in the time of the law ? how many thousands of poore , of widows , strangers , of fatherlesse , and beggars are there in thy borders , o christendome , which want relief , which the law of god that gave tithes to the priesthood which god ordained , provided for , by the tithes that were brought into the store-house ? why must a greedy , covetous , proud priesthood , that is not like the priesthood under the law , nor the ministers of the gospel , swallow down , and devour , and treasure up to themselves , which belongs no more to them , then to the widows , strangers , and fatherless ? put the popes lavv aside , the magistrates of england , and if tithes and priesthood must stand , let them stand according to the lavv of god by moses , and not according to the papists law , and covetous priests desires . 4. did not the pope , and the false church ( which hath risen since the dayes of the apostles ) who invented tithes for the maintenance of his ministers , exclude and shut out the poore , the fatherlesse , the widows , and strangers from having a share with him and his priests of the tithes ? and people why do you love to uphold a popish invention , and the false churches synodicall decrees , edicts and ordinances ? and is not this one popish decree , that tithes are due to god and holy church ? do you not know what god the pope and papists mean ? and what , and where the holy church is , that tithes are due to , by his , or their decree ? is not their god their belly , and their glory their shame , and their holy church a cage of unclean birds , a den of idolaters , which murthers , prisons , racketh and tortureth and persecuteth those that are indeed the members of the holy church ( which is in god ) and did ever the ministers of christ , who were members of the holy church , preach up tithes to be due to them , or covet after them , or receive any of them ? did they not on the contrary preach against tithes and deny them , and the priesthood that received tithes , and the law that gave tithes they denied also , and witnessed the change of the law and priesthood both ? as in the 7. of pauls epistle to the hebrews ; then are not those priests that preach for tithes , and plead for tithes , opposers of the true ministers of christ , and their doctrine , and upholders of the pope , papists and their decrees , and orders ? 5. did not christ jesus who is the substance of all the mosaicall administrations send forth his ministers freely , saying to them , freely ye have received , freely give ? did ever christ bid them demand tithes from the people they preached to ? then surely they did never sue them at the law for that they never demanded of them , as those that call themselves the ministers of christ do now in this age , who have been rifling mens houses and fields for tithes ; people do you not believe that it is a great abomination and blasphemy against the lord for such to call themselves the ministers of christ ? is not christs glorious gospel of god dishonoured by them ? is not the pope that ordered tithes to be paid to the priests , bishops and clergy men onely , and that excluded the poore from having part of the tithes , more honoured and obeyed then christ , by all the tithe-mongers and hirelings in christendome , and people that own them ? christ said , freely you have received freel● give . the pope and popish clergy said , and saith , we have not received freely , and we will not , nor cannot give freely ; and if people will not give us freely , we will compell them by force and cruelty ; and whose ministers are such ? and whose commands and ordinances do such obey , christs or the popes ? hath not your fruits and works answered already , that the popes command and order is preferred above christs , and obeyed rather then christs command and order ? did not christ say , into whatsoever town or city you enter , enquire who in it is worthy , and there abide till ye go thence , &c. this he spake to them which he sent forth . did he ever send his ministers into any town , city or countrey , to enquire how much money by the year they would give them to preach to them , and to enquire after tithes , and augmentations and such like , and to agree and make bargains with people for a 100. or 200 l. by the year ? if christ sent any such ministers forth , and if the true christians ever owned such ministers , priests and people , answer and declare when , till then we shall reckon you with the popish priests , and papists . this following letter containing the substance of the dispute , was given into the hands of william cooper about the middle of the third month , enclosed with some directions for him to convey it to the rest of his brethren which were at the dispute , if peradventure they might be shewed their blindness and ignorance in the things of god ; and william cooper soon after sent word by one of his communicants , that we should have a speedy answer ; but no answer hath appeared : and now therefore are they further examined , and their practices and manners of worship more fully enquired into in the former treatise ; and in both all people may see that are not quite blind , how that much and many relicks of popery are yet standing chiefly in the presbyterian churches , so called , and that the true christian life and primitive church-order is not among them . and if they can say otherwise , let them lay aside that wisdom which man teacheth , and which they have learn'd at school by natural education , and answer without logical arguments , in plainness , according to the holy scriptures . friends , you that profess your selves to be ministers of christ , and have put on the sheeps clothing , but are erred from the spirit of the lord ; the time of tryal is now come , wherein secret things are brought to light , and the great mystery of babylon is discovered , and all false ministers are made manifest , and the judgement of the great whore is come , and your judgement also that hath drunk her cup : and now something is upon me as to mind you of , and to lay something of your own ignorance and weakness before you , which appeared in you at that time of the dispute in the bridge-house , to the intent that you , and the people that are under your ministry may come to see the error of your ways , and may be converted to god , and live ; for it truly appears that death reigns in you , and over you , and the fruits and effects thereof doth spring from you , and the cursed tree is yet standing that brings forth the branches of darkness , of unbelief , and of great ignorance : and the sword of the lord , which is the words of his mouth , will utterly slay you . and whereas you asked , if we owned you to be ministers of christ : unto which in part we answered , and i do here more plainly testifie , no , we cannot own you to be ministers of christ , nor sent of him , for we know the contrary , because you are different and contrary to the ministers of christ that were in the dayes of the apostles , in call , in practice , and conversation ; in maintenance , and in your fruits and effects ; in all these things we say , and can prove , that you are not according , but different and contrary to the apostles and ministers of the true churches before the apostacy ; and therefore i hereby certifie you , that we ( to wit ) the people of god called quakers , do not own you as the ministers of christ , but do look upon you to be deceivers and false teachers , and of antichrist , and your fruits and works doth manifest it , and thereby do we know you not to be the ministers of christ , but false teachers , as i have said . and whereas you affirmed your selves to be ministers of christ , and went about to prove it by your arguments of invented logick , and the substance and intent of your first argument was , those that have the characters and signs upon them spoken of in 1 tim. 3. are ministers of christ ; but you have those signs and characters upon you , and therefore , you are ministers of christ . ans. now this scripture which you have mentioned for proof of your ministry , when you are truly laid to the line and measure thereof , will prove that you are not true ministers , for you are not thus qualified in your spirits and conversation , as this scripture doth signifie , but the contrary fruits and effects doth appear from you , then is set down in this scripture ; are you blameless in your conversations ? and are you sober and of good behaviour , and given to hospitality , and apt to teach ? and are you not given to wine and filthy lucre ? and are you patient , not brawlers nor covetous ? and are you not lifted up with pride ? and are you of good report ? and do you hold the mysterie of faith in a pure conscience ? these things were required to be in the ministers of christ ; and have you these characters ? and are you such as is here spoken of ? and have you these fruits and marke upon you ? now are you to be tried , and and i am searching your own proof , whether it holds sound to confirm that for which you brought it ? no it is manifest by your fruits according to your own proof , that you are men of another generation , and are bringing forth fruits and works clean contrary to them , whom the apostle allows of for ministers ; for you are not blamelesse , nor sober , nor of good behaviour , for you are guilty of the pride and vanity of this world , and live in envy and bitternesse , and so not blamelesse , nor sober , nor of good behaviour , neither apt to teach ; for you want the spirit , that was in the apostles , and you cannot speak as that spirit gives you utterance , but you speak from humane study , and what you have gathered from other mens works , and many of you are given to wine and strong drink , and are greedy of filthy lucre , and sue men at law for wages , and remove from one place to another for more means , and for greater hire , and this is covetousnesse and greedinesse of filthy lucre , which you ( to wit , genrally the priests ) are known to be guilty of through the whole land ; and ye have an ill report , to be covetous men , and proud men , and ambitious , and self-seeking men , this report you have of many that are without , and the poore unconverted people they know you to be guilty of these things ; and your consciences are not pure , neither do ye hold the mysterie of faith in it ; but your consciences are defiled with the evil and sinfull practises of this wicked world ; and that faith that you professe is not the true faith that the apostles had , which gave them victory over the world , and over all sinne ; for you are in the pollutions of the world , unsanctified , and the guilt of sinne lies upon you ; these things are true , as the witness in your own consciences may testifie● so that your own proof and evidence hath condemned you , and the scripture by which you thought to prove your selves ministers of christ , it hath turn'd upon your own heads , and manifested the contrary , and though you have said , you were qualified according to that scripture , and therefore you were called into the mini●st● , and were the true ministers , yet the contrary is discovered , and that you are qualified by a contrary spirit and have the marks and characters upon you , not of the true ministers of christ , but of 〈◊〉 spoken of in 2 tim. 3. and according to that sort of false teachers are you qualified ; and therefore in practice and conversation you do not agree with the apostles , but are different and contrary to them , and are according to the false teachers , and false apostles , and with them you do agree in spirit and in practice in many things . and as to your call to the ministry , you are not able to make any good proof thereof at all , nor did not at that time , but some of them did deny , that the anointing , the unction of the holy spirit , was necessary unto the ministry ; and this was the argument , that all things were mentioned for the qualification of a minister , in that 1 tim. 3. but the holy unction is not mentioned ; therefore , the unction of the spirit is not necessary to the ministry . answer , something was spoken to this before , as to shew the ignorance of it , and the wickednesse of this argument ; and some of you were partly ashamed of it your selves ; and had not the man and you been vvholly ignorant and blind , this would never have proceeded from amongst you ; and are you like to be ministers of christ , who hath asserted , that the spirit of god , and the anointing is not necessary to the ministry ? was ever the like ignorance uttered by any before you ? even your fathers , the friars at rome would be ashamed of you herein , to utter such dark and ignorant assertions . is this your learning , and your wise logick , to prove the anointing unnecessary to the ministry ? and such ministers we believe are you that have not the holy unction of the spirit , but are ministers of the letter , and by the will of man , and not by the spirit , nor of the spirit , and so your call is not the same as was the apostles , but contrary to them and different from them ; so that we cannot own you to be ministers of christ ; for ye are different and contrary to them both in your call , and in your conversations . and though you seemed to deny to be made ministers by your learning and education , yet it is manifest that through that , you received the ministry , through the attainments of such arts and sciences , and at last you came to attain to the office of ministers as you say ; and it was not by the call of the spirit , nor by the gift of the holy ghost , for that you have in part denied , and saith the unction is not necessary to the ministry ; so it is but your hypocrisie to deny that you are made ministers by your natural learning ; for we know that thereby onely , and without the gift of the holy ghost , did you attain to that ministry which now you hold , cannot convert sinners to god , nor turn the wicked from his evil way ; for it answers not the testimony of god in people , but people remains always blind and ignorant under it ; and you go on dreaming for carnal ends unto your selves , seeking for your hire , and for your gain , and therefore we do deny that you are true ministers of christ , for you can neither prove that you are so , neither doth your fruits and works prove it , but the contrary is manifest . and whereas you further said , the gift of the holy spirit is not sufficient to make a minister ; this is also your ignorance ; for as i said , they also have receiv'd the spirit , have received the fruits thereof ; and the apostle saith , as every one hath received the gift of the spirit , so he may administer of the same to another ; & who have received the spirit of christ , they are christs ; and if any man have not that spirit , such are none of his , but how full of confusion are you ? i cannot but mind you of it ; some time you say , the spirit is not necessary to the ministry ; and again you say , the spirit alone is not sufficient to make a minister ; and here is babylons stuff ( confusion ) brought forth by you her merchants , and such as these hath deceived the souls of men , one saying one thing , and others another , and thus is your kingdom divided , and that is a sign that it cannot stand , but it must fall when the kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdom of christ . and whereas you affirmed , one may be called into the ministry by christ , and yet at the same time be under the power of the devil , and the self-same man at the very same time may be a disciple of christ , and yet a devil . ans. i cannot but mind you of your ignorance , and return your words to you again ; for a man that is under the power of the devil , he is the servant of the devil , and not christs servant ; and that man that is a disciple of christ , and learns of him , is a child of god , and not of the devil ; for the devil is out of truth , and so are all that are under his power , but the disciple of christ is in the truth , and learns of christ who is truth ; and though you would seem to prove these things by judas & peter , yet as for judas he turned from christ , and against him , and the devil entered into him , and he lost the power of god , and erred from it , and then he was a devil , and a betrayer of the just ; but whilst he followed christ , and was faithful in his ministry , he was not a devil : neither was peter satan , he that was christ's disciple ; but he that savoured the things that was of man , and not the things of god , and he that denied christ , he was the satan ; for the disciple of christ , and satan , are two , and not one ; they are contrary , and not the same , though you in your ignorance would make them one ; but ye know not of what spirit ye are of , nor whose work you are doing . and whereas you held it forth , that you had the fruits of the spirit , because you shew forth faith and repentance , therefore , &c. now i did , and do deny that you shew forth faith and repentance ; for your works doth manifest the contrary ; and to prove that you have repentante , you say you detest all sin , and therefore , &c. now this i did , and do deny again , and do assert the contrary , and thus i prove it , whosoever breaks the commands of christ , and acts those things which he cryed wo against , & those things which the holy prophets cryed against , they do not detest all sin ; but thus you do , ( to wit ) you that profess your selves to be ministers , you act those things which christ forbad , & which the holy prophets cryed against . therefore you do not detest all sin , and so have not the fruits and marks of the holy ghost upon you , that you act these things that christ forbad , and which the prophets cryed against ; it is plainly manifest christ forbad his ministers to be called of men masters , but you are called masters ; & christ cryed wo against them that loved the uppermost rooms , and the chief seats , & greetings in the markets , and these things are you guilty of . and the holy prophets cryed against them that preached for hire , and divined for money , and against them that fed themselves with the fat , and clothed themselves with the wool , and did not feed the flock ; and these things you are guilty of ; and thus it is manifest you do not detest all sin , but lives in it ; for in the fruits and works of the flesh you do abound , in pride and covetousness , in wrath and bitterness , and in many other things , whereby it is clearly manifest that you have not your own noted signs of the holy spirit upon you , and so we cannot own you , but must deny you to be the ministers of christ : and as for your carriages and proceedings at that dispute , they were not agreeing with the spirit of truth , for you were wild , and vain , and scornful , which practices becomes not christs ministers : and why did you run so soon away ? why had not you longer patience for the tryal of all things ? were you afraid to be discovered , and that your shame should have appeared ? were you hit upon your sore , which made you fling away so suddenly , that you could not abide any longer . many things more i had to have spoken , if you had not left us in that manner , which a shame unto your selves , and to your companie who used such wildness and violence , and laid violent hands upon me , thrusting me forth , and threatning of us with constables , and these things ought not to have been , nor had you been ministers of christ would they have been , but your fruits makes you manifest , and by your fruits we know you , as christ hath told us ; for your fruits are the fruits of unrighteousness and not the fruits of the holy spirit of the lord , which fruits are pure and peaceable , but your fruits are otherwise , to wit , the fruits of the spirit of this world that lies in wickedness , and whereas you accused us to be jesuites or such like ; these were your false accusations , and we see you to be nearer to agreement with the jesuites then we are , and the church of rome is your mother , & from her you have descended in your call and in your maintenance , and in the most part of your worship and practices , therefore come , let 's reason with you , had not you ( the professed ministers of england ) this way of making ministers at schools and colledges , & by natural learning , from the church of rome ? was not she the first that instituted these colledges , & gave the maintenance to them , and gave all these names to schollers , as batchellour of arts , and master of arts , batchellour of divinity , and such like names , which yet remains amongst you , the originall of which came from the church of rome ? and was first set up in england by the whores authority . did these things come from the church of christ , or was there such names amongst christs true ministers ? or have not you received these things and wayes from the whore , and drunken her cup ? this way of making ministers have you had from the whore of rome ; and from whence had you this way of maintenance in your ministry , by tithes and gleab-lands , and easter reckonings , and so much a year out of your parish ? did not all this proceed out of the church of rome , and was not in the day of the apostles , nor practised by christs ministers , but from the whore you have had this also ? this way of being maintained , and suing people at the law for your tithes and for your money , christs ministers never did thus , but the churh of rome hath been the originall of all these things and practises ; and from whence had you this practice of sprinkling infants , and calling it the baptisme into the faith , and into the visible church ? did not this come from rome ? and have not you received it from thence ? if there was any such institution or practice amongst the apostles prove it by scripture , else we will not believe you , but must tell you the originall of this came from rome , and you have drunken the whores cup , and been made drunk thereby ; & so now when we examine you throughly in your wayes and practices , we find you agreeing with the jesuites in many things ; and while you accuse others your selves are guilty ; and now people begins to see your shame , and you cannot hide it , for the witness is risen in people , and the seed of god is coming forth , which tramples over and treads down the false church , and all her false ordinances and institutions , and her cup must be broken to pieces , and she shall no more make the nations drunk ; and as for you false ministers , though you pray and preach , and cry against heresie and error , and would beg laws to suppresse it , as ye say ; yet your selves are found guilty of the error , and you want the spirit of truth to guide you ; and your own hearts are not cleansed , and then how can you cleanse others ? and that which you call error and heresie is truth ; for your judgements are corrupted , and your eye is blind , and what you know , you know naturally , and not by the teachings of the spirit of god , but by traditions , and by the words of other men without you , and the holy anointing in your own selves , you know not ; for you have not received it ; and whereas you queried whether the scriptures were the word of god and the rule of life i do now answer : the scriptures were given forth by the spirit of god , and are the words of god , & the word was in them that gave them forth , and christ is that word , and the scriptures testifie of him , & the scriptures are not the rule of life , but the spirit that gave them forth , that is the rule to the children of god ; for as many as are the sons of god are led by the spirit of god , and them that walk according to that rule of the spirit peace is upon them , and so it is the spirit of god that gave forth the scriptures ; that is , the rule of life , and not the scriptures ; yet where the spirit is the rule , it leadeth up according to the scriptures in the fulfilling of them ; and as for ye hypocrites who do profess the scriptures to be your rule , and yet walks contrary to the scriptures , your own rule condemns you , and out of your own mouths will the lord judge you . is the scripture your rule to preach for hire , and to have so much a year for preaching , and if any will not pay them to sue them at the law , and take their goods by violence , and to cast their bodies into prison ? this is the practice of many ministers in this nation ; but what rule in all the scripture have you for these things , or vvhat example , saving from the false prophets , false apostles ? and vvhat rule have you in all the scriptures for sprinkling of infants , and calling it baptisme into the faith ? and what rule have you to take tithes ? and are not you hypocrites to professe the scriptures to be your rule and yet act these things which the scripture neither gives commandment nor example for , but the rather bears witness against ? but who hath the spirit , and walks by that rule , sees you , and judges you who are out of the life of the scriptures , in the life that is contrary , and with the spirit of god are you reproved , in all your wayes of darknesse and error . and whereas you queried concerning the light within , we do say , that christ the second a●am lighteneth all mankind that be come into the world ; and this light john bare witness of , and it shined in darkness , and the darkness comprehended it not , and that was it that enlightened every man that cometh into the world ; and this light brings all to receive christ that doth believe , and they that believe not , this light is their condemnation ; and though you stumble at this stumbling stone , as your fathers the jews did ; yet unto us that do believe , christ the light of the world is precious , and all that comes to the knowledge of god , must come to the true knowledge by the light that shines 〈…〉 hearts ; for it is the light that shines in the heart , that gives the knowledge of god ; and although you wise builders do stumble at the foundation ; yet it will break you to pieces ; and confound you utterly ; for the light is risen in the hearts of many , which light gives them the knowledge of god , and the knowledge of you , and all your false wayes of error , and brings men to depart from them all , and to follow the lord in righteousness , and so every man is lightened , that they may believe ; and they that believe , and walk in the light shall be saved ; but they that believe not , but hate the light , shall be condemned , and this is their condemnation , that light is come into the world and into their hearts ; and as for you , you are but shallow men ; for you want the knowledge of god , and truth stands over you , though you oppose it , and it will grow to a mountain , where all the righteous shall be refreshed ; and the lord is begun to work in the earth , he hath set his hand to pull down babylon , and there shall not one stone be left upon another , and all her merchandise shall fail , and her strong holds shall be broken down , and all her merchants shall howl and lament ; therefore now consider it ye leaders of the people , the day of the visitation is now , but it will suddenly be shut up , with the night of darkness upon you , and you will be wounded , and you can never be healed , you will be ruined , and can never be revived ; this is from a lover of your souls , edward burrough . something after . and now you priests , the black clergy of england , who count your selves orthodox men , sound , able ministers of the gospell of christ , know and consider , and let it be known to , and considred by all people , that we slander you not , nor do you no wrong in disowning you to be the ministers of christ , and in comparing you to the black , bloody , popish trait , your mother-church ; nor in comparing you with the false prophets , idle shepbeards of israel , and the deceivers and false teachers which crept in , in the days of the apostles , which since hath overspread the nations ; for if ever there were a company of priests that were like a troop of robbers , and that murthered with consent , and that preached for hire , and divined for money , and that sought their gain from their quarter , sed themselves with the fat , and cloathed themselves with the wool , and that cared not naturally for the flock , but for the fleece , and that taught for filthy lucre , and that said , thus saith the lord ; when the lords voice they never heard ; and that had stolen then neighbours words , and that run before they were sent , and that did not profit the people at all ; i say , if ever there was such priests and teachers , as certainly there was in the prophets days , and apostles days , such assuredly in thee , oh england , doth exceedingly abouned , as by the fruits in every conntry , city , town , and village most evidently appeareth , in which wickedness is grown so exceeding high , and the envy & offering of cain , in priests & people is so strong , and the jewish blind zeal ' so fierce , and the cry of the rude multitude , away with him , away with him , so loud , loud , and many pilates through importunity of the priests , and cry of the multitude , so ready to deliver the innocent into the hands of such who loves barrabas the murtherer better then he that came to save mens lives , and not to destroy them ; and better then his ministers , whole weapons were never carnal , as tucks , rapiers , staves and canes , which hath been the weapons of thirty english priests already recorded within this seven or eight years , who have not onely incensed and stirred up the magistrates and people to persecute , but hath shed blood , beat and bruised many themselves , one of which number was ( and is still for ought i know ) priest griffin of bread street in london , who st●uck one robert ingram sorely over the head with a kane , many blows ; and by means of such priests the prophet isaiah call'd greedy dumb dogs , and that prepared war against such as could not put into their mouths , hath about two thousand of the the people of god suffered within this seven or eight years twenty six hath been murthered & imprisoned till death , and some hundreds suffered long imprisonments in filthy , unwholsome places , and cruel , inhumane usage therein by wicked , bloody goalers , thieves , murtherers , and felons , among which they have been cast ; some others hath been robbed and spoiled of their goods for tythes , to the value of some thousands of pounds , sometimes five , six , seven , or eight times the value of what was demanded by the hi●eling priest and impropriator , to the ruine and destroying of many families , widows and fatherless , ( as to the outward ) in taking away their wearing cloath's , bedding , pots , dishes , and kettles , ( sometimes all was too little ) seizing sometimes 100 l. worth of goods for one years tythes , valued at six pounds , and body also imprison●● : oh horrible minist●y ! a worse was never in any generation , i do believe , especially in times wherein the cry of reformation hath been so loud , and liberty of conscience pretended ; oh! how is it that people are so blind and sottish as to cou●● greedy hirelings ( who are like to leave their names upon record as a stink and a wand●● to the next generation ) christian ministers ; christian ministers were no sigh●ers , nor strikers , nor covetous , nor greedy of silthy lucre , nor demanders of tythes from the people , nor suers at law for the tythes ; if they were , you priests and people produce the chapter and verse that must prove it ; you have proved your selves such , and we can ●●sily prove , and have proved , that you are not like the ministers of christ , for the ministers of christ in the primitive church , bore their testimony against tythes , which god commanded to be paid to the first priesthood ; and many saints , martyrs , and ministers of christ of later times mentioned in fox's histories , called , the book of martyrs , have , or did faithfully in their measure bear their testimony unto death against the tythes which the pope and his train had invented and set up since the apostles days , which at this day yet stands as a main prop and upholder of a proud , high minded , self-seeking , covetous ignorant , popish clergy here in england , against which , and whom , we also bear our testimony , which hath already been sealed with much blood within these few years . and if there be any honest , tender hearted men amongst the priests , which really desires and endeavours to have a conscience void of offence towards god , and towards 〈◊〉 let such come out from amongst them , and bear their testimony against them that hath committed such horrible things in the land , and utterly deny them , and disown them , else the best of them will be but as a b●yar , and the most upright as a thorn-hedge , and a cons●ne to wickedness will be found in their hearts in the day of the lord ; therefore accept the let no people count some priests better then other priests , for there is little difference between those that murther , and those that consent to murther ; those that rob , and those ●hat consent to robbery ; those that persecute , and those that consent to persecution , and their reward will be alike at that day which god hath appointed to judge the secrets of all 〈◊〉 by the man christ jesus . w. s. the end . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a70985e-30 * that sign of long reig * i have seen such looke beyond luther: or an ansvvere to that question, so often and so insultingly proposed by our aduersaries, asking vs; where this our religion was before luthers time? vvhereto are added sound props to beare vp honest-hearted protestants, that they fall not from their sauing-faith. by richard bernard, of batcombe in sommersetshire. bernard, richard, 1568-1641. 1623 approx. 140 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 33 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a73011 stc 1956.3 estc s123041 99900480 99900480 173372 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a73011) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 173372) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 2037:11) looke beyond luther: or an ansvvere to that question, so often and so insultingly proposed by our aduersaries, asking vs; where this our religion was before luthers time? vvhereto are added sound props to beare vp honest-hearted protestants, that they fall not from their sauing-faith. by richard bernard, of batcombe in sommersetshire. bernard, richard, 1568-1641. [8], 56 p. imprinted by felix kyngston, and are to be sold by edmund weauer, at his shop, at the great north-doore of pauls, london : 1623. signatures: a-h⁴. first leaf is blank. in this edition b1r line 2 of text ends "an in-"; d3r line 10 is "culars." parts of quires f-h are reimposed from stc 1956. reproduction of original in the folger shakespeare library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim 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limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng catholic church -controversial literature -early works to 1800. protestantism -apologetic works -early works to 1800. 2008-01 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-02 pip willcox sampled and proofread 2008-02 pip willcox text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion looke beyond luther : or an answere to that qvestion , so often and so insvltingly proposed by our aduersaries , asking vs ; where this our religion was before luthers time ? whereto are added sovnd props to beare vp honest-hearted protestants , that they fall not from their sauing-faith . by richard bernard , of batcombe in sommersetshire . london , imprinted by felix kyngston , and are to be sold by edmund weauer , at his shop , at the great north-doore of pauls . 1623. to the right worshipfvll , sir walter erle , sir clement cotterel , knights : and to their vertuous ladies , euersoundnesse of faith , with the power of religion and constancie , in both most heartie wished . right worshipfull , i should maruell to see any once professing the truth , to turne from the light vnto darkenes , from the true worship and religion of christ , to the superstition and idolatrie of antichrist , but that i read , that our first parents beleeued satan before god ; that men loue darkenesse more then the light , and that fornot louing the truth , and delighting in vnrighteousnesse , god giueth such ouer to beleeue lyes , that they may bee damned . could it else otherwise be , that so many in this so cleare light of gods gospel , should fall away ? what haue our aduersaries now more to pleade for their cause , then heretofore they haue had ? what can they now say , which is not alreadie fully answered by our learned men ? they put out indeed new bookes , new in regard of the writing and printing ; but the reasons one and the same in older written and printed bookes : this is in shew a putting of more strength , to vphold their ruinous building , but not in substance : yet thus they beguile the simple and vnstable-minded . by many waies they seeke to deceiue , and beguile people , but especially by accusing our religion of falshood and nouelty , and affirming theirs to bee the true and most ancient faith : in both which they speake very vntruely . for touching this their present religion ( as it differeth from ours , and as it is popery ) it is but a new vpstart religion , a patcherie of iudaisme , paganisme and heresie ; a religion deuised by men , and not hauing god for the author : how farre our religion is from falshood and noueltie , i haue here indeuoured to shew , answering to that question so often propounded , where it was before luthers time ? if any of our aduersaries , or all of them together , dare to goe plainely to worke , ( for hitherto they haue not ) and first set downe ours and their accord , wherein , and how farre we and they in euery thing doe agree , to cut off hereby all needlesse strife and contentions . secondly , then truely and faithfully without equiuocall termes , to deliuer their distinct differences from vs , that so euery one may rightly discerne , whereabout we do contend , and what indeede their now present religion is , which we call popery , bing seuered from our common agreement . thirdly , to bring these their differences to the due triall of scriptures , the common principles of christianitie , and the true writings of the ancient fathers in the first ages ; then will it clearely appeare to euery one of indifferent iudgement , whether ours or theirs be the true religion , and whether ours or theirs be the false church . in the meane space , till they proceede thus vprightly and sincerely , i hope , no protestant in earnest , will be insnared and catched by their deceites . let such as in the plentifull meanes of knowledge wilfully liue in ignorance , or hauing knowledge , liue lewdly , without feare of god , loue of truth , and power of religion , be the prey for craftie foxes : for these be the fittest subiects for them to worke vpon ; and these only preuaile they with , receiuing a iust punishment for their contempt of sauing knowledge , or for their consciencelesse liuing contrary to their knowledge . for there is no man of right vnderstanding , and that makes conscience of his waies , louing the truth , walking humbly before his god , being acquainted with gods word , and praying for gods direction , that god either will giue ouer , or that can in reason submit vnto this false antichristian church , if he doe but seriously consider of such things , as will worke , if not an absolute condemnation , yet a most iust suspition of her to be naught ; as first , the vilifying of holy scriptures , locking them vp from the common people , as if gods word were infectious . secondly , her thrusting vpon the people her feigned traditions , all besides , and many of them against scripture . thirdly , the absurd and vnreasonablenesse of their latine seruice , which the people vnderstand not . fourthly , their idolatrous praying to saints , worshipping stockes and stones , and reliques of the dead . fifthly , their grosse conceit of christs corporall presence in the sacrament . sixthly , the feigned miracles , and notable coozenages therin , found out here , and in other countries ; the boasting of them a farre off , but not able to worke the like among vs. seuenthly , the shamelesse & grosse belying of our doctrine , and slandring the liues of our learned men , as luther , caluin , beza , and others . eighthly , the citing in defence of their religion , counterfeit authors , so knowne to be , and so condemned to be by the learned on their owne side . ninthly , the not permitting freely our bookes among them , as wee doe theirs among vs. tenthly , the tying of the people to the priests lippes , and not permitting them to trie their doctrine , as we doe . the vniust curses , dissembling practices , and mercilesse cruelties vsed to vphold their religion , swearing & for swearing , by equiuocations , ment all reseruations , and popes dispensations , massacres , and powder-plots , and bloodie persecutions . twelfthly , the auoyding of a free generall councell , to heare and determine our differences . who is he that shall consider of these things with iudgement , but will suspect this romish church to be none of christs church , if withal he adde hereto the consideration of the differences betweene the wisedome below ( by which that seate is guided ) which is earthly , naturall , sensuall , & deuilish , and the wisdom from aboue ( by which christs church is guided ) which is pure , peaceable , gentle , easie to be intreated , full of mercy , and good fruits , without partiality , and without hypocrisie , as saint iames writeth ? i doubt not but that you haue already considered of these premisses , and that you are resolued , that this is the true . religion , and the good way , wherein you walke , euen the ancient , catholike and apostolike veritie , grounded vpon scripture , and the principles of christianitie , taught by the holy fathers and doctors of the church , and confirmed by the blood of blessed martyrs . my desire is , that god would continue your loue , with encrease of zeale towards the same more and more . to this purpose are these my endeuors , which i present vnto you , praying your fauourable acceptance of my good meaning , and hearty wel-wishes , and worthie respect vnto your selues , and to all that wish well to sion , and pray for the peace of ierusalem : god let them , and you with yours , to prosper which loue it . amen . your worships in all christian seruices to be commanded , richard bernard . batcombe , sept. 26. looke beyond luther : or an answere to that qvestion so often , and so insultingly proposed by our aduersaries , asking vs ; where this our religion was , before luthers time ? it is a common question , and often propounded by papists in an insulting manner ouer vs , where our religion was before luthers time ? as though wee could not answere to the demand , nor fetch our religion from any more ancient , or better author : but they are deceiued in both . and that i may not be tedious in prefacing , i answer : i. it was , and is written , and contained in the holy scriptures , the canonicall books of the old and new testament . ii. the same hath been , and is written in the hearts of gods people , such as the lord from time to time effectually hath called , according to euerie mans measure , as they haue bin taught it , and learned it out of those books of holy scripture . for this must we know , that no other doctrine of christian religion was , or is written in mens hearts , by gods spirit , then that which the same spirit inspired the pen-men of the scriptures to write in those bookes . the necessarie truths of doctrine therein contained ( as god had promised ) hath he written in the hearts of his people , ier. 31.33 , 34. 2. cor. 3.3 . and for these ends , that they might know god , and know him to be their god , and they his people , ier. 31.33 , 34. that they might make profession thereof , and obediently set themselues to the practice of that his blessed will , ezech. 11.19 , 20. & 36.26 , 27. iii. that it was also written in learned mens labours , agreeing with those holy bookes , as they found the truth therein , taught vnto them by the prophets and apostles . so as the doctrine of our religion is no other , then that which the scriptures doe teach , the church and true people of god haue beleeued , and professed ; nor no other then that , which is to be found in the writings of y e holy ancient fathers , and of learned men , before euer luther was borne . that our religion was thus before luthers time , i proue by these ensuing reasons . i. argument . from holy scriptures , wherein our religion is written and taught in euery point . that religion which is in all and euerie point thereof written , and prescribed in holy scriptures , the canonical books of the old and new testament , was before luthers time . for the scriptures were written many hundred yeeres , before luther was in beeing , and the pen-men thereof had a care to practise the same . but this our present religion in all and euerie point thereof ( wherein we differ from our aduersaries ) is written and prescribed in the holy scriptures , the canonicall bookes of the old and new testament : as is in euery particular point prooued exactly by those of our side . and therefore was it before luthers time . the minor i thus prooue . i. by the publike records of our church here at home , as the publike authorized catechisme , shorter and larger , by the booke of homilies , by the book of articles , and our booke of common-prayer . out of which ( wherein soeuer we differ from our aduersaries ) nothing is found besides , as wanting warrant of scripture , much lesse any thing contrarie thereunto , but euery thing grounded vpon , and fully agreeing with the same . ii. by gods spirit , the author of the scriptures , which doth further our religion in the hearts of the people , through the reading and interpreting thereof , which the spirit of god would not doe , if our religion were not that , which the scriptures teach . for would the author of the one , approue of the other , if they were not both one ? if hee should further a religion , contrarie to the scripture , hee should be contrary to himselfe , allowing and making good that in mens hearts by inward operation , which he hath disallowed by the scriptures , which are of his diuine inspiration . it is euident to all that are read in the scriptures , that they condemne all heathenish , al heretical , and idolatrous religion ; likewise , all will-worship , all vaine inuentions of men , the seruing of god by humane traditions , by the precepts and doctrines of men : so as if our religion were any such , gods spirit would not grace it , nor so knit mens harts vnto it , nor so effectually worke by it in mens consciences , nor so perswade vnto it , as he daily doth by the scriptures . if they shall denie , that gods spirit doth any such thing , as we suppose ; i would faine know of them , what other spirit it possibly may be , that doth so leade men to esteeme so much the scriptures , doth excite men to the studie of them , and to make them the onely rule of doctrine , and life , to heare , belieue , rest and delight in them , and so to worship god onely , as herein he requireth to be worshipped , and to reiect whatsoeuer is not warranted by them , in euery necessarie point of faith ? and that onely vpon this perswasion , that the scriptures are gods word , that they are endited by his spirit , and written by his holy prophets and apostles ? if this be not the spirit of god , which doth thus magnifie the holy scriptures in the heart of euery sound christian , what spirit then is it ? certainely it must bee either the spirit of god , or of man , or of the deuill . but neither of these two latter , therefore the former . i. it is not the spirit of man that can , and doth thus worke : for first , the spirit of man perceiueth not the things of god , till gods spirit acquaint him with them . secondly , they be foolishnesse vnto him . thirdly , his wisdome is enmitie with god , so as gods wisdome in diuine mysteries , and mans wisdome can neuer agree in one . fourthly , the spirit of man sauoureth the things of the flesh , and not of the spirit of god. fifthly , his heart is continually euil , till he be regenerate . sixthly and lastly , it is euidently knowne by too much miserable experience , that man loueth not the studie of the scriptures , he cannot delight in them , hee cannot away to frame his life after them ; euery one that hath any sparke of diuine knowledge , knoweth this to bee true from his owne naturall corruption , both in himselfe and others also . now can any reasonable-minded man thinke , that such an auerse spirit as is in man , so disaffecting the holy scriptures , and the studie thereof , that it can be that spirit which perswadeth and draweth men , contrary to it corrupt selfe , to embrace that religion which is grounded vpon the scriptures , and to presse to the obedience thereof ? yea , can it bee mans spirit , that worketh loue to such a religion , which so opposeth mans corruption , as the worldly wise politician derideth it , the pleasurable man hateth it , the greedy of gaine cannot abide to bee ruled by it , and the haughtie spirit which hunteth after the pride of life , hath it in great contempt ? so as none in very deed , but onely such as doe denie themselues , doe forsake the world , and can bee well contented to take vp their crosse , and follow christ , either can , or will embrace the same . ii. it is not the spirit of satan . for although hee will abusiuely now and then alleage scripture , yet is he a deadly enemie to the scriptures : he will not leade to the right vse of them , nor perswade men to frame their religion and life after them , but rather doth suggest the cleane contrarie , as the storie of the scriptures witnesseth , and our owne temptations tell vs. for , as a * father saith , the deuill cannot endure to haue any to studie the scriptures ; that is torment and paine aboue all paines to him . he hath euer been a raiser vp of persecution against such , as serue god in a religion onely grounded vpon the scriptures : as hee was in the iewes , against the apostles , and the beleeuing gentiles ; so in gentiles infidels , against christians ; in the heretikes against the orthodoxall ; in our antichristian aduersaries against vs ; and in all lewde liuers , the children of disobedience , in whom he beareth rule , and whose hearts he stirreth vp to doe his will against all such , as in a more strict manner endeuour to frame their liues after gods word , though in general together , they professe one god , and haue receiued the same baptisme , and doe liue together in the same church . therefore wee see , that it cannot be the spirit of satan , that perswadeth to our so holy a religion by the scriptures , vpon which onely it is settled , seeing he so deadly hateth such a religion , and the sound and zealous professours thereof . iii. it is not the spirit of man and satan together , as may appeare , first , in heretikes , who are led by satan , and their owne spirit . these being not able to iustifie their heresies by holy scripture , they fall to weaken the authoritie of the scriptures , they will not rest on them , but doe flie the light of them , as tertullian , and other ancient fathers witnesse of heretikes in their times , who left the scriptures , and ran to traditions , as did the manichees , cerynthians , basilidians , carpocratians , marcionists , valentinians , arians , and others . secondly , in all will-worshippers , which framing a seruice to god out of their owne braines , cannot away to make holy scriptures their guide , but doe leaue them assoone as they bee addicted to their owne inuentions , of which , god by his prophets in scripture often complaines . thirdly , in heathen idolaters , who haue been set on worke by the deuill to burne the scriptures , as did that wicked dioclesian ; also here in brittaine , the infidell saxons ; and in ierusalem , that vngodly iehoiakim , who burnt the prophecie of ieremiah , which baruch writ from his mouth at that time . fourthly , in our aduersaries now , who cannot rest with the scriptures , nor will admit them , as the only iudge in controuersies , nor as the onely rule of religion . and the very reason is , because they teach and practise many things out of their owne spirit , euen the doctrine of deuils , which the scripture vtterly condemneth . their sainted will-worshippers in their heremeticall life , and their world of monkish orders , cannot abide the rule of scripture ; their holy course of life so much admired and extolled ( yet onely of such as know not the power of satan , in the deceiueable wayes of his vnrighteousnesse ) dares not stand to be iudged , ruled , and squared after the rule of holy scriptures : yea , as holy as they pretend to bee , yet neither can they , nor wil they wholly frame their seruice and deuotion and life after the word of life . and therefore we see , that it cannot be the spirit of man and satan , whether apart considered or conioyned , that doth perswade , mooue and further to the embracing of that religion , which is wholly grounded vpon the scriptures , as ours is . and therefore not being either of these , it followeth , that it must needs bee the spirit of god , that thus perswadeth men to our religion by the scriptures , wherein it is contained . iii. our religion appeareth to be written in , and iustified by the scriptures , for that in those places it getteth entrance , and thriueth , where they are permitted to be studied , and read of all , and to be taught , as the onely rule of religion . the scriptures are the very life and strength of our religion , as is sufficiently knowne by experience to our very aduersaries . now , how could this be , if our religion were not that , which is taught in the scriptures ? for the scripture , as is aforesaid , doth condemne heretikes & heresies , will-worship and will-worshippers , idolatry and idolaters ; and is the sword of the spirit , the breath of christs mouth , that consumeth the man of sinne. if our religion were heresie , or wil-worship , or idolatrie , or the inuention of that man of sin , the scriptures could not be the life and strength thereof , seeing they oppose , and vtterly condemne those things . iv. our religion standeth , and is vpheld by such holy and heauenly meanes onely , as the scriptures allow and prescribe , and which we find there to bee the onely meanes , vsed at the first planting of christian religion by the apostles in the primitiue church , which were these that follow . i. there was then the preaching of gods word . this meanes was prescribed by our sauiour christ , to make disciples vnto him , mat. 28.19 , 20. and the same obserued by his apostles , mark. 16.15 . 20. acts 2.14 . & 10.34 . & 11.19 . so preaching of gods word is the meanes , by which our religion , through gods blessing , is planted in mens hearts . as also it was foretold and appointed , that it should bee the meanes to regaine people from vnder antichrist , reuel . 10.11 . & 14 6. ii. there was the teaching of the grounds , and principles of christianitie , then called milke , now commonly called , the catechisme , heb. 6.1 . & 5 12. 1. cor. 3.2 . this hath greatly furthered our religion , euen by the testimony of our aduersaries , and is a speciall meanes to informe the minds of the ignorant , in the truth of our religion , that they may not be deceiued . iii. then was teaching and preaching altogether out of the scriptures of the prophets . the apostles taught the gospell onely out of them , rom. 1.2 . acts 26.22 & 28.23 . the scriptures they cited , acts 1.16 . & 2.16 , 17. by them they confuted the aduersaries , acts 17.2 . & 18.28 . so our teaching and preaching is out of the scriptures of the prophets and apostles : by these we confirme our doctrine , and by these chiefely doe we confute our aduersaries . iv. then was allowed the vse of the holy scriptures indifferently to all sorts , without restraint or exception ; they were free to all of the laity , both men and women . the apostles neuer forbade them to any , nor euer reprooued any for reading or studying of them , but commended them to all sorts , 2. tim. 3.15 , 16. 2. pet. 1.19 , 20 , 21. and left it written , as a matter worthy prayse in religious men , the eunuch , and the noble baereans , that they read and searched the scriptures ; so also in godly women for training vp their children herein , acts 8.30 . & 17.11 . 2. tim. 1.5 . & 3.15 . yea , peter ( whom our aduersaries make their rocke ) in generall telleth all christian beleeuers , that they should do well to take heed thereunto , as to a sure word , 2. pet. 1.19 . so is there here with vs , the free vse of the scriptures ; this wee commend to all sorts , forbid them to none , but rather hold them most religious , who delight in the holy and reuerent studie of the scriptures , according to the practice of the ancient primitiue church in the apostles dayes . v. then were there publike assemblies , where they met together , 1. cor. 11.18 , 19. acts 1.13 . & 2.46 . and that vpon the first day of the weeke , acts 20.7 . 1. cor. 16.2 . these assemblies none might forsake , but all were mutually to exhort to the frequent vse of them , heb. 10.25 . to beware of causing diuisions and offences , contrary to the receiued doctrine of the apostles , rom. 16.17 . so haue wee publike assemblies , where wee meete on the first day of the weeke , and at other times , which all are bound to come vnto , and none ought to forsake , to preuent diuisions , contrarie to the apostolicall doctrine , and to preserue the publike profession and exercise of our religion . vi. then was there set ouer euery seuerall assembly and congregation , such as might be able to teach , hauing the ouersight of the people , and care of their soules , acts 14.23 . tit. 1.5 . acts 20.28 . heb. 13.7 , 17. 1. pet. 5.2 , 3. so is this in our church a most excellent meanes to vphold our religion . vii . then was god onely worshipped , and he onely prayed vnto in those assemblies ; not saints , nor angels , nor the virgin marie . in them prayers were made with one accord , acts 1.14 . & 2.42 . & 4.24 . the word read , 1. thes . 5.27 . col 4.16 . the word preached , act. 20.7 . the sacraments administred , act. 2.42 . 1. cor. 11.18 , 20 , 23 , 26. and the lords supper in both kinds deliuered , 1. cor. 10.16 . collections were also made for the poore , 1. cor. 16.12 . and al things were performed to edification , in a known tongue , 1. cor. 14. in our assemblies god is onely worshipped , to him onely we make our prayers , and neither to saint nor angell , nor to the virgin mary ; though wee honour them duly as we ought . in our assemblies , prayer is made with one accord , the word read and preached , the sacraments administred , and the lords supper in both kinds deliuered , almes , as need requires , giuen to the poore , and all done to edification , and in a knowne tongue , as in the apostles dayes . viii . then was preached against , and forbidden all will-worship , though neuer so faire in shew , all seruice to god after the doctrine and cōmandements of men , col. 2.20 , 23. also , the worship of angels , col. 2.18 . the worship of idols , 1. ioh. 5.21 . and fellowship with idolaters , 1. cor. 8.10 . and 5.11 . 2. cor. 6.14 , 18. so with vs are forbidden all these things , and condemned by our religion , as is euident by our booke of homilies , booke of articles , the publike authorized larger catechisme , and other publike records : yea , the forbidding , abolishing , and preaching against these things , is an excellent meanes to vphold the purity of our religion , which in it selfe is so contrary to all will-worship , humane inuentions , superstition and idolatry . ix . then was the exercise of ecclesiasticall discipline for the preseruation of order , for the punishing and casting out of obstinate heretikes , 1. tim. 1.20 . & 6.3 . tit. 3.10 . as also of notorious offenders , which would not otherwise bee reformed , 1. cor. 5.7 . 2. thes . 3.14 . and those the people were to auoyd , 1. cor. 5.10 . 2. thes . 3.6 . 2. tim. 3.5 . ephes . 5.7 . this godly discipline duly obserued , is of great force to preserue our religion , and to keepe it in honour and estimation . x. then was there vrging and pressing to a holy conuersation , both in pastors , tit. 2.7 , 8. 1. tim. 4.12 . and in the people , rom. 12.1 , 2. eph. 5. & 6. this christian-like conuersation adorneth our religion , which is onely powerfull in them which liue well ; for it condemneth all libertinisme , and requireth very strict obedience to god and his word . xi . then was suffering of persecution for the truth , and the same foretold to accompany the godly , acts 14.22 . 1. thes . 3.3 . 2. tim. 3.12 . & 1.8 . phil. 1.19 . which greatly furthered religion , taught by the apostles , phil. 1.12 . and so hath it done ours in these parts of christendome , as the world knoweth . xii . then was taught subiection both of pastors and people vnto principalities and powers , as to kings , so to inferiour magistrates sent by them . all sorts without exception , were taught obedience to them , and for conscience sake , were they bound to render to them dues , tribute , custome , honour . they were commanded to make prayers for them with thanksgiuing , which was a meanes to further religion : for the apostle telleth them , that thus to doe is well-doing , and a meanes to stop the mouthes of the aduersaries , that so they might leade a quiet and peaceable life in al godlinesse and honestie , rom. 13.1 , 7. t it 3.1 . 1. pet. 2.13 , 17. 1. tim. 2.1 , 2. this is , & hath bin an excellent meanes to aduance our religion : for kings and princes seeing , that our true and apostolicall religion did not derogate from their lawfull authoritie , did not draw subiects from their allegeance , nor exempt any from their true obedience , but rather maintained the right , which god by his holy word in scriptures had giuen them ; they submitted to the truth , and embraced our religion , shaking off the yoake of antichrist , and so tooke vpon them the authoritie giuen them of god , to reforme religion , according as they were taught , and had learned the doctrine of christ in the scriptures . thus wee see , first , the ordinarie meanes which the holy scriptures prescribe , and euidently shew to haue been vsed in the primitiue church , for the planting and vpholding of christian religion . and secondly , that the very selfe-same haue been , and yet are the meanes for planting and preseruing of our religion , in euery country where it hath been receiued . which meanes are so powerfull and effectuall for this purpose , that looke by how much these meanes are put in execution , by so much doth our religion prosper , in spite of all worldly oppositions , and gaine-sayings whatsoeuer : and on the contrarie , looke as these meanes , either wholly , or but in part , are neglected , or faile to bee performed , so doth our religion lose of its strength , and decay amongst the people , what policie soeuer men otherwise vse to vphold the same . for our religion stands by holy and heauenly meanes , and not by meere worldly policie , or humane deuices , faire shewes to the eyes , delights to the eare , pleasurable obiects to delight the carnally-minded . neither can it be held by any satanicall delusions , fabulous narrations , feigned miracles , deceitfull iugglings ; nor by pretended apparitions of angels , or of soules departed ; nor by the bare authoritie of mens sayings , decrees of corrupt councels , popes sentences , wrangling canonists , sophisticall distinctions of schoolemen , humane traditions , apocryphall writings , old and idle customes , examples of ignorant forefathers , estimation of mens persons for learning , and shew of holinesse ; nor by any deceitfull , wicked , and corrupt dealing , as by counterfeite and bastard writings , corrupting of councels and fathers , expunging words and sentences out of learned mens workes , or altering them from the true meaning , to beguile the simple reader . no , nor by furious and forcible meanes ; as by fire and fagot , massacres , treasons , poysons , and stabbing of kings , and gun-powder-plots , nor by any such hellish practices , such as the apostles neuer spake of , the primitiue church neuer knew of , nor in holy scripture were euer spoken of ; for all these , our religion doth vtterly condemne . it is vpheld only by those holy and heauenly meanes , which the apostles taught , and practised , and which they haue left written in the scriptures for direction of gods church , that she may know , which be the onely effectuall meanes , that god hath appointed to vphold his true religion . by these meanes onely , ours is preserued . and therefore it is that true religion , which the holy scripture teacheth . which being so , i conclude this first argument , that this our present religion , wherein we differ from our aduersaries , was before luthers time . ii. argument . from the blessed martyrs in all ages . that religion which was written by god in the hearts of his martyrs , and which from the beginning to this day , they all suffered for , was before luthers time . this cannot bee denied . but our religion now present , was written by god in the hearts of his martyrs , and is that which from the beginning to this day , they all suffered for . and therefore this our now present religion was before luthers time . the minor is thus confirmed , both for the writing of it in their hearts , and for suffering for it . the latter manifesteth the former : for they that faithfully and constantly obey the truth , euen vnto suffering persecution , and death for it , without doubt haue it written in their hearts . for if religion be not imprinted in the hearts of the martyrs , in whose hart is it written ? for the martyrs had the spirit of the liuing god , sauing-knowledge , and remission of sinnes : they walked in gods statutes , and kept his iudgements sincerely ; all which are the euident signes , that gods truth was written in their hearts , as these places of scripture witnesse , 2. cor. 3.3 . ier. 31.33 , 34. ezech. 36.27 . this is not to bee doubted of . but the question is , whether all the martyrs did suffer for this our religion , or no ? to answere to this , wee must consider , that all the martyrs of christ may be ranked into foure sorts , euery of which suffered for such truths , as are in our religion , which we doe at this day professe . i. sort of martyrs were those , who suffered by the iewes , whereof the first was stephen , then iames , with many more , act 7. & 12.2 , 4. all these did suffer for that religion , which christ and his apostles taught : but they taught out of the scriptures , and not out of traditions , as the euangelists and acts shew . but to suffer for that religion , which is onely taught in the scriptures , is to suffer for ours , as by the former argument is prooued . therefore they suffered for our religion . ii. sort of martyrs were such , as suffered by and amongst the heathen , especially vnder the romane tyrants , during the ten bloody persecutions ; among which martyrs were most of the apostles : for we reade not in scripture , that any of the apostles suffred martyrdome amongst the iewes , but onely iames , iohns brother , acts 12. the rest suffered among the heathen . now the apostles being the planters of our religion ( as by their writings doth appeare ) and also martyrs for the same among this second sort , they must needs be our martyrs , suffering for our religion , and so all the rest which followed the apostles in the same faith . iii. sort of martyrs were such , as suffered by the furie and rage of heretikes , when the arians had god an ouerswaying power through arian emperours and kings . but those orthodoxall martyrs and confessors suffered for no other doctrine , then our religion teacheth . for wee hold and professe the faith of the councell of nice , and athanasius creed ; for in our common prayer-booke they are appoynted publikely to be read in our assemblies . and therefore these also suffered for our religion , and were our martyrs . but heere our aduersaries will say , that all these three sorts were their martyrs ; for they brag and boast of these to silly people , as if they had suffered for their religion , now professed and practised among them . but that the truth may appeare , whether these martyrs bee theirs , or ours , wee must consider them both as martyrs , and also as beleeuers : properly they were martyrs in those things , for which they did suffer . now their suffering was for the common truths , receiued both by our aduersaries and vs. so the cause making the martyrs , and it equally held of both , they are our martyrs , aswell as theirs . yea , if we consider them also as beleeuers , holding other points of faith , for which they were not questioned , neither suffered for , wee may more rightly claime them , then our aduersaries . for of which religion they held , and most agreed vnto , of that religion must they be iudged to be . that this may bee knowne , it must be wel conceiued , what they and we meane by saying , our religion . we either side stand vpon our religion , not as wee agree in points of christianitie one with the other ; but as wee haue our differences also to our selues one from the other . so vpon this resteth the point , to trie the martyrs whose they bee , theirs or ours , by their more or lesse agreeing , or disagreeing with either side in our said differences . but in respect of the maine differences of their religion from ours , that they cannot claime the martyrs , i thus proue by these ensuing reasons . i. if these maine , differences in their religion be such , as none of these martyrs ( which suffered by , and amongst the iewes , or by , and amongst the heathen , or by , and amongst the wicked heretikes ) euer made profession of , much lesse suffered for , then in respect of these differences , are they not their martyrs ; they cannot appropriate them to themselues , as they vse to doe , but are still martyrs in common . but the antecedent is true , as shall be prooued by my third reason next following , for sixe hundred yeeres space after christ , in which space were all three sorts of martyrs . and therefore the consequence cannot be denied . ii. if these differences in their religion bee nothing else but humane inuentions , without sound authoritie from holy scriptures , and that the martyrs professed and beleeued those things onely , which expressely , or by necessarie conclusions , are contained in the scriptures , then in respect of these differences , they are not their martyrs . but the former part is true . ergo , the latter must needes be granted . for the truth of the antecedent , touching the vnwarrantablenesse of these their differences , and without all ground of scripture : i demand of papists , what scripture haue they for these things , wherein we and they doe differ ? i. of god. what scripture for the picturing of the holy trinitie ; forbidden by moses to be any way represented ? deut. 4 15 , 16. ii. of the scriptures . where is it written , that the scriptures receiue authoritie from the church , and the sense thereof onely subiect vnto her ? that the vulgar latin translation is only to be admitted as authenticall ? that the scriptures be imperfect , and are not the certaine rule of faith ? that there are traditions besides for perfecting the scriptures , and to bee receiued with equall authoritie with scriptures ? iii. of the church . that the catholike church is not the company onely of gods elect people ? that the church of rome cannot erre ? iv. of the pope . where is scripture to proue , that peter was at rome , and bishop there twenty fiue yeeres ? that he was to be appointed vicar of christ ? that the pope is the vniuersall bishop ? that he onely is peters successour , and christs vicar ? that he cannot erre è cathedra ? that he is aboue councels ? that hee may depose kings from their temporall estates , and dispose of their kingdomes ? that he can dispense with sinnes against the plaine law of god ? that he can set soules free out of torments after this life ? v. of the clergie and ecclesiasticall persons . in what place of scripture is it taught , that there be popes , cardinals , and popish prelates like princes ? that there are now priests , to whom a speciall office of priesthood is assigned ? that there bee seuen degrees thereof ? that a man is now appointed in the time of the gospell , to offer sacrifices daily for the quicke and the dead ? that all churchmen ( so called ) are to liue vnmarried ? that a monasticall life is the best estate ? that ecclesiasticall persons are exempt from secular authority ? vi. of the sacraments . where doth the scripture teach , that baptisme is to bee administred with chrisme , oyle , coniuring , salt , spittle ? that there is such a spirituall kindred betweene the witnesses , and the party baptized , as also betwixt the parents and children of those witnesses , as it hindreth marriage ( without a dispensation ) betwixt one another , though there be otherwise no kindred either of affinity or consanguinity ? that iesus christ is bodily and wholly , as he is man , borne of the virgin mary , in the sacrament , the bread being turned into his flesh ? that it is a sacrifice for the quick and the dead ? that the cake is to bee reserued , and carryed about in pompe , and that all are to fall downe to it , and worship it ? that it is to bee administred but in one kind ? that the lay people must not take it , but gape and eate it ? that the priest that saith masse , must haue a shauen crowne ; haue his amice , girdle , aube , manuple , stole , chesible , and other pretended holy vestments ? that he must vse such crossings , turning , duckings , liftings , whisperings , gapings , minglings of wine and water , such lickings , and other variety of stagelike gestures ? vii . of prayer . that it must be in latine ? that not god onely , but saints may be prayed vnto ? that the dead are to be prayed for ? that it is lawfull to pray by number , to say the same 150. times , and to pray vpon beades ? viii . of worship . what written word teacheth , that diuine seruice is to bee said onely in the latine tongue ? that saints , and their reliques are to be adored ? that images and pictures are to be in churches , for adoration sake , and to be lay-mens bookes ? ix . of the virgin mary . that she was borne without sinne ? that she is the queene of heauen , the lady of the world ? that she is diuinely to be worshipped ? that shee is to haue her proper seruice , and her aue maries ? x. of the church or temple , the place of publike worship . what scripture , that belles are to bee baptized ? that there must bee altars , veiles , holy-water , holy-ashes , palmes , and many such trumperies ? that children dying without baptisme , are not to be buried in the church-yard ; and that there is for their soules a limbus infantium ? xi . of dayes . where doe the apostles teach , that there are such a number of holy-dayes , as be in that religion ? that a speciall holinesse is to be put in the obseruation of dayes ? that dayes and times are to bee set apart to the worship of saints ? xii . of meates . where in scripture reade they , that there is such a difference of meates , as the obseruation of such a difference at some times , is more holy , then at other some times ? all these differences are humane inuentions , without warrant of scriptures . now let them shew , that any of these sorts of martyrs beleeued and professed these differences ; if they cannot , then the conclusion is good , that they were not their martyrs by these differences , but in common still ours as well as theirs . iii. if these differences be but a very patchery of heresies , iudaisme , and paganisme , then in respect thereof , they cannot be their martyrs : for martyrs suffered for none of these three , but , in detestation thereof , were grieuously persecuted by iewes , pagans , and heretikes . but the anticedent is most true , as our learned men haue made it manifest . for heresies ; a bish . morton , b doct. whitacres , c gab. powel , and d doctor willet . for iudaisme , e doctor raynolds hath sufficiently manifested it , and somewhat of paganisme . but for this , reade thom. moresin , doctor of physick , his whole booke , called papatus , printed at edenburgh , and f gab. powel on the first chapter to the romanes . for all three , see a late published booke , called , the three conformities . and therefore in respect of these differences , being hereticall , iewish , and paganish , these martyrs are none of their martyrs , neither did their sufferings make good any whit this their now present religion . iv. if these differences from our religion doe offer violence to the three offices of christ , and make their publike worship in many things blasphemous , and idolatrous ; then in respect of such differences , they are not their martyrs . but the antecedent is true . ergo , the consequent . to proue the antecedent , doctor fownes hath lately of purpose set forth his trisagion , wherein he hath sufficiently confirmed it , out of their publike missaes , breuiaries , portuses , rosaries , liturgies , psalters , primers , and manuals of prayers , to which i referre the reader for full satisfaction : and doe conclude therefore , that these blessed martyrs were none of theirs , by vertue of these differences . v. if many of these differences of theirs be not only besides scripture , without warrant from thence , as before is shewed , but also flat against scripture , and against our common tenents , agreed vpon betweene vs and them : then in respect of these differences , they are not their martyrs . for they did not suffer for those things which were against scripture , and the common tenents of christianity , wherein we and our aduersaries doe agree . if they dare affirme this , let them giue instances thereof . but many of these their differences are against scripture , and against the common tenents of christianity , in which we both agree . which being so , these their differences can be no part of christianity , because they be against both the rule , and also against the grounds of christianity . therefore the consequence is true . that there are such differences betweene vs , i instance for proofe in these ensuing . that the scriptures are imperfect , contrary to psal . 19.7 . 1. tim. 3.16 , 17. that there is an vnwritten word , called , traditions , to be added thereunto ; contrary to deut. 4.2 . reuel . 21.8 . prou. 30.6 . that the witnesse of the church , is greater then the witnesse of the scriptures , and to be beleeued before them : contrary to 1. ioh. 5.9 . ioh. 5.17 . that the inuisible god may bee pictured : contrary to deut. 4.15 . acts 17.29 . esa . 40.18 . rom. 1.23 . that images may be made to be worshipped : contrary to deut. 27.15 . exod. 20. and that they are for instruction : contrary to hab. 2.18 . that prayers may be made to the virgin mary , and to saints departed : contrary to matth. 6.19 . and contrary to the practice of the patriarchs , prophets and apostles , and holy men in scripture . that prayers made by number , and often repetitions , are pleasing vnto god , as when people are taught to pray by number on beades : contrary to matth. 6.7 . that they may be vttered in an vnknowne tongue , and also gods publike seruice so said : contrary to 1. cor. 14.15 , 19. that therein a generall good intent is acceptable to god , though the mind bee not endued with sound knowledge : contrary to prou. 19 . 2.n 1. cor. 14.20 . that the sacrament of the lords supper , is to be administred and receiued in one kind : contrary to matth. 26.27 . 1. cor. 10.16 . & 11.23 , 24 , 25. that iesus christ is corporally in the bread transubstantiated : contrary to act. 3.21 . and that it is very god : contrary to hos . 8.6 . that it is offered for a sacrifice propitiatory , as if christ once offering himselfe , were not sufficient : contrary to heb. 10.10 , 14. that the law may be fulfilled , and a man iustified thereby before god : contrary to rom. 7.19 . & 3.20 . & 4.2 . 1. cor. 4.4 . esa . 46.6 . that a man may merit by his works : contrary to tit. 3.5 . ephes . 2.8 , 10. rom. 6.23 . luk. 7.10 . that a man may bee able to doe more , then god requireth of him , or that hee is tyed by dutie to doe : contrary to rom. 7.19 . luk. 17.10 . prou. 20.9 . eccles . 7.20 . psal . 130.3 . that the pope may dispense with gods law : contrary to 1. sam. 2.25 . rom. 8.33 , 34. iob 9.33 . & 34.29 . that there are sinnes which yet are not prohibited by gods law : contrary to 1. ioh. 3.4 . ro. 4.15 . & 7.8 . & 3.20 . that some sinnes are in themselues veniall , which deserue not death : contrary to rom. 6.23 . iames. 1.15 . genes . 2.17 . that originall concupiscence is no sinne in the regenerate : contrary to rom. 7.19 . psalm . 51. that the virgin mary was without sinne : contrary to iob 14.4 . eccles . 7.2 , 20. psal . 130.3 . rom. 3.9 , 23. 1. ioh. 1.7 , 8. luk. 1.46 . that marriage is not honourable in all sorts of men , as for instance , not in the clergie : contrary to hebr. 13.4 . 1. cor. 7.9 . 1. tim. 5.14 . and contrary to the practice of the married priests vnder the law. that married persons with consent , may euer liue asunder , to leade a monasticall life : contrary to 1. cor. 7.2 . that holinesse is to be put in the obseruation of dayes : contrary to col. 2.16 . of meates : contrary to rom. 14.14 . 1. cor. 8.8 . matth. 15.20 . 1. tim. 4.3 , 4. and so men lose thereby christian liberty : contrary to gal. 5.1 . that many who dye in the lord , not abiects from god , yet rest not after death for a time : contrary to reuel . 14.13 . but make a temporall satisfaction , in a place they call purgatorie , whose sinnes although heere pardoned , yet goe not these soules immediately to heauen : contrary to luk. 23.43 . where the good thiefe is promised paradise , which is heauen , 2. cor. 12.3 , 4. that the popes power is kingly , yea , that he may vse the temporall sword , and depose kings , and dispose of their kingdomes , and be subiect to none : contrary to luke 22.25 , 26. matth. 20.25 , 26. rom. 13. 1. tit. 3.1 . 1. pet. 2.13 . that he which gets the popes dispensation , sinneth not in that he doth , though the same be against gods law : contrary to matth. 5.19 . deut. 27.26 . ier. 11.3 . ioh. 3.4 . that the pope is christs vicar , and yet may intermeddle with the earthly and temporall kingdomes of this world : contrary to christs owne practice , luk. 12.14 . the nature of his kingdome , iohn 18.36 . against the nature of such spirituall weapons and power which god gaue to his apostles , 2. corint . 10.4 , 5 , 6. yea , that the pope may take vpon him ( as hee doth ) to haue to doe with those which are without , to wit , the heathen , to giue away their kingdomes , ( as he presumeth to doe with such as forsake him , whom hee iudgeth to bee heretikes ) contrary to 1. cor. 5.12 , 13. that his clergie are exempted from ciuill iurisdiction : contrary to christs commandement , matth. 22.21 . to his practice , matth. 17.27 . to saint peters teaching , 1. pet. 2.13 , 14. and to saint pauls , rom. 13.1 , 7. tit. 3.1 . it were infinite to particularize all the differences betweene our religion and theirs , wherin they are contrary to holy scripture , and contrary to the tenne commandements , the creed , the lords prayer , and the two sacraments . of which if any desire herein instances to be better satisfied , let him reade gabriel powel , who hath purposely set downe a multitude of particulars . vi. and lastly , if none of the martyrs were papists , or ( as they please to call themselues ) romane catholiks ; then could they not bee their martyrs : for they which bee not such , are not held to bee of their romane religion , nor church . but none of these martyrs were papists , or romane catholikes ; for they held not these many differences of theirs from vs , by which a papist becommeth a papist or romane catholike , and without which hee is not by them approoued to be such a one . for let a man hold all other poynts of christianity wholly and fully ; yet if he hold not , that the pope hath authority , as christs vicar vpon earth : that the church of rome is the mother and mistresse of all churches : that there are seuen sacraments : that the sacrament may be receiued in one kind : that the bread after consecration is transubstantiated , and christ there corporally vnder the formes of bread and wine , and so to bee diuinely adored : that seruice is to bee said euery where in latine : that images are to bee set in churches , and to bee worshipped : that saints departed , are to bee prayed vnto , and their reliques worshipped : that there is a purgatory for penall satisfaction after this life : that our workes doe merit , and that we are iustified by them before god : that ecclesiasticall persons may not marry : that confession of sinnes is to be made secretly to a priest in his eare , and that hee hath power iudicially to absolue the confitents , and impose penance vpon them for satisfaction for sinne vnto god. these , and such like articles newly coyned , whosoeuer doth not hold , is not iudged to be a romane catholike but none of these differences did these martyrs hold , much lesse euer suffered persecution for . for not one of these articles of the trent conuenticle was held in the time of these sorts of martyrs , all of them suffering within the 600. yeeres after christ , in which space was there none that might be called a papist , or roman catholike after the definition of the trentists . and therefore were they not their martyrs , neither did any of them professe the now new romane trentisme . and thus wee see , how by these differences they cannot claime the martyrs . now our differences from them , are all grounded vpon scriptures , and principles of christianity , and warranted by such common truth of christian religion , as they and we doe fully accord in ; not one of our differences being either heresie , or any part of iudaisme , or paganisme , nor euer condemned by any generall councell in the space of these first sixe hundreds of yeeres , in which these three sorts of martyrs did liue . true it is , that our aduersaries call vs heretikes , and lay heresies to our charge , but falsely , without iust proose , as our learned whitacres , bishop morton , and others , shew in answering bellarmine his calumnies herein to the full . seeing then our differences and truths of christian religion , taught by the apostles , and by the succeeding pastors , and belieued by the church , are the parts of that faith and religion , which these martyrs suffered for ; i conclude , that in regard both of the truthes , wherein wee and our aduersaries agree , and also of our differences , wherein we disagree from the now present church of rome , they were our martyrs , and none of theirs . iv. sort of martyrs are those , who suffered by , and amongst these our aduersaries , as the berengarians , waldenses , albigenses , wicklife and his followers in england , iohn hus , and ierome of prague , at constance , and many moe in bohemia , and in other places , euen to luthers time , and after , an innumerable multitude slaine and massacred , burnt , and put to sundry deathes for our religion , and for gaine-saying our aduersaries in those differences , which we now stand out in , against the church of rome at this present . these were therefore our martyrs . but our aduersaries will say , that these were no martyrs , but condemned heretikes . that they were martyrs , & no heretikes , its cleare . s. iohn in the reuelation , calleth those saints and martyrs of iesus , reuel . 17.6 . which should suffer for the word of god , for refusing to worship the beast and his image , and for not receiuing his marke in their fore-heads , or in their hands , reuel . 20.4 . and for keeping the commandements of god , and the faith of iesus , and so dying in the lord , should rest from their labours , and be accounted blessed , reuel . 14.12 , 13. but such were these our martyrs , for they suffered for gods word , for keeping the commandements and faith of iesus , and for refusing to worship the beast and whore of rome ; drunke with the blood of the saints . and therefore were blessed martyrs , and no heretikes . but they will say ; these held diuers errours , and were not in all things wholly with vs ? they suffered , and were martyrs for those selfe-same things , which with vs they witnessed against the church of rome . ii. many errours are ascribed vnto them , which they neuer held , as doctor vsher bishop of meeth learnedly shewes . iii. though in some things they should haue differed from vs , yet doth not that make them not to be of our religion . for if for lighter differences in opinions , men should be held not to be of the same religion ( if so our aduersaries will conclude ) then are the now romanists not of one and the same religion , which is now professed at rome : for one of them differs much from another in many things . neither haue they any right to the ancient fathers , betweene whom and these our aduersaries , is also great difference , and that in many things . these martyrs therefore , though they might differ from vs in some things ( the light then not shining so clearely , as now it doth ) were our martyrs . thus wee see all the martyrs from the beginning , to be ours , and so haue our aduersaries none at all , which may be properly called theirs , for the first 600. yeeres : for if they claime the first three sorts , it s but as they doe agree with vs ; for in their differences from vs , the martyrs are none of theirs . the fourth sort are clearely our owne , and are martyrs in defence of our differences from them . but for their differences , they haue no mrrtyrs of iesus : for such martyrs as be his martyrs , suffer for his sake , for gods word , for his faith and commandements : but their differences are not gods word , nor the faith , nor commandements of iesus , neither suffered papists here for religion ; but for treason , rebellion , disloyall acts , for denying due obedience to lawfull authority , and for standing in defence of forraine power , and the authority of the whore of babylon , the murtherer of saints , and of that antichrist the pope , as hee is prooued sufficiently so to bee . and therefore i conclude , our religion to be before luthers time . iii. argument . from the writings of the ancient fathers . that religion which is to be found in the writings of the ancient fathers , as professed and taught by them , in the first 600. yeeres after christ , that was before luthers time . but this our present religion ( in the poynts of doctrine wherin we differ from our aduersaries ) is to be found in the writings of the ancient fathers , as professed and taught by them in the first 600. yeeres after christ . therefore was this our present religion ( in the poynts of doctrine , wherein wee differ from our aduersaries ) before luthers time . the minor i thus prooue : all the differing religions of greatest note , which were euer since christs ascension , are one of these ; iudaisme , gentilisme , or paganisme , arianisme ( vnder which i comprehend all heresies ) mahometisme , or turcisme , the present religion of the church of rome , which may be called trentisme , or iesuitisme , commonly called , papistrie ; and this our religion termed , the reformed religion , or protestancy ; which wee professe and teach with an vnanime consent in the harmonie of confessions , otherwise then the church of rome now doth . but those ancient fathers taught not iudaisme , nor paganisme , nor arianisme , or other heresies , which in those dayes rose vp , nor mahometisme . ergo , either the religion of the now church of rome , or ours , with either of our differences one from another . but not so this of theirs . for those differences on their part , whereby a man becommeth a romane catholike , or papist , the ancient fathers , with one consent , neuer taught . the differences are mentioned before : for all which if they can produce the vnanime consent of those fathers in 600. yeeres space , we yeeld them the fathers : but if not , then are they ours , as they that taught and professed our religion . for they not onely taught all the maine poynts of faith , which we and our aduersaries doe agree in ; but also all the principall differences with vs , wherein we and our aduersaries doe differ , as polanus hath largely prooued , to whose learned paines i referre the reader . therefore this our present religion was before luthers time . iv. argument . from the witnesse of our very aduersaries . that religion which is to be found in the publike records of the church of rome , and in the writings of learned men therein , from the very first foundation of it vnto this day ; that was before luthers time . this ( i hope ) may passe for current . but this our present religion is such a religion ; and therfore before luthers time . the minor , if they deny , is thus confirmed . i. there are amongst them the holy scriptures , which they acknowledge to be the word of god : but by those scriptures may all our religion be proued , and fully confirmed , in any thing wherein we differ from our aduersaries . and therefore this our religion is to be found among them . ii. there is that which is called , the apostles creed , and the nicene creed , which they professe , the articles whereof we hold , and therein is contained the summe of our faith. iii. there is the lords prayer , the paterne of all true prayers , according to which onely we teach how to pray aright , and thereafter doe frame our prayers . iv. there is the decalogue and ten commandements , which though defectiuely set downe in their catechismes ( the second being left out ) yet are they wholly set downe in their bibles , which ten commandements are the summe of our morall obedience , and of our duties towards god , and our neighbours . v. they acknowledge the two sacraments , baptisme and the lords supper , both which we doe administer . vi. there are common tenents of christianitie , which all christian churches haue euer held , wherein we & they doe fully agree . vii . there is their seruice booke , wherein though many abominations are to be found , yet in other things it iustifieth our religion and seruice : as may appeare by comparing our seruice booke with it ; out of which , ours was , for the substance thereof , taken . against which they cannot iustly take exception ; neither are they able to prooue , by gods word , by the ancient councels , and consent of the ancient fathers , any thing idolatrous , heretical , or any way vnlawfull , wherein soeuer it differeth from theirs . viii . there may also be found their accord in generall termes with vs , in those things , wherein for the particulars we and they bee at oddes , and doe disagree ; as master perkins giueth instance in one and twenty particulars ▪ and the like may be done in many other points . ix . and lastly , there is to be found all and euery point of our religion particularly , wherein wee differ from them , which either wee affirme , or they deny ; or we denie , and they affrme ; and the same iustified by the writings of the learned amongst them . for proofe hereof , i referre the reader to my lord of couentrie and lichfield , his catholike appeale , and catholike apologie , first and second parts ; to my lord of meeth , his booke de chri. eccles . succes . & statu ; to illyricus , his catalog . test . veritatis ; to ioh. à munster , his nobilis discursus ; to doct. feild , his fourth booke of the church , who proueth seuen and twenty particulars of our maine differences out of their owne writers . and if the writings of their learned men doe not iustifie our religion , i would know , why they doe not suffer such writings to passe without purging ? for if such things were not for vs , and against them , they would not put out , nor alter , nor so indeed corrupt authors , or inhibite them to passe abroad , as they doe : which one act of theirs sheweth , that our differences might bee prooued , euen by their owne writers , if they might decide the controuersies betwixt vs and them . thus we see , how our religion is to be found amongst them , not onely in the points wherein wee doe agree , but euen in all our particular differences , in which wee stand out against the preualent faction of that church , which alwaies hath ouer-borne the truth , which by others of more sound iudgement in that church , hath been from time to time published and maintained . and therefore this our now present religion was before luthers time . v. argument . from the beginning of our religion here , before austin the monke came to this iland . that religion which was here in this iland of great britaine , before austin the monke came into it , that was before luthers time : for this monke came in many hundred of yeeres before luther was borne . but this our present religion was here in this iland of great britaine , before austin the monke came into it . therefore was it before luthers dayes . the minor i thus prooue : i. the christian religion taught at ierusalem by the apostles , and other disciples of christ , was our religion , as by the first argument is prooued from the apostles writings . but that same christian religion was here taught , and that either by some apostle , as simon zelotes ; or some disciple of christ , as ioseph of arimathea , * as some of our side haue prooued fully , and our aduersaries yeeld vs. now if that which was taught at ierusalem was ours , then must it needs be ours , which simon zelotes , or ioseph of arimathea did here teach ; at the first planting of it , being before austins time : for can any say , that these brought from ierusalem hither , any other religion , then the apostles deliuered there ? ii. that same religion first taught , did continue here in succession from the apostles dayes , and was held at austins comming , as our aduersaries , the apologists do proue , and doe take this also for an vndoubted truth , that the britaine 's of wales receiued the faith of christ , by preaching of the apostles , and held that faith at austins comming . now the faith taught by the apostles , being the same with ours , as the holy scriptures beare witnesse against all gaine-sayers ; it is cleare by the apologists proofes , and their owne acknowledgement of the continuance thereof , from the very beginning , that this our present religion was here in this iland of great britaine , before austins comming . iii. here were many which suffered martyrdome in dioclesians reigne , before austines dayes , but it is prooued before in the second argument , that all the martyrs of christ were of our religion . and therefore was that our religion , which was here before austines time . iv. before austines comming , the church of christ here , was not subiect to the romish church : for first , they kept not their easter after the romish fashion , but as the easterne churches kept it , whence our religion came . now if they had been of the romanists tutoring , the fierie spirit of victor , who attempted to excommunicate the easterne churches , would haue compelled the britains to haue kept their easter , as hee did . secondly , they administred baptisme not after the ceremonious fashion of the romanists . thirdly , they refused to doe , what austin required , neither would they acknowledge him their archbishop , though sent from rome by the bishop there . fourthly , both the britaines , scots , and irish bishops so vtterly reiected the romish bishops , as bishop daganus denied all communion with them , yea , and refused to eate bread with them in the same inne ; so little regard had they then to the authoritie either of the romish church , or romish bishops . yea , the centurists , and other protestants haue obserued out of galfridus , that before austines comming , there was here amongst the britaines , the profession of more pure christianity , then that which austine brought from rome . its babbled out by our aduersaries , that this austin conuerted this iland : but this is most vntrue ; for saint aidan , and saint finan , were the lords instruments to gaine many here to christ . saint aidan recouered from paganisme , the kingdome of northumberland , whereunto belonged ( besides northumberland it selfe , the lands beyond it , vnto edenborow frith ) these countries , cumberland , westmerland , lancashire , yorkeshire , and the bishopricke of durham . saint finan regained not onely essex and middlesex , but also the large kingdome of mercia , conuerted first vnto christianitie ; which kingdome did comprehend vnder it these countries ; glostershire , herefordshire , worcestershire , warwickshire , leicestershire , rutlandshire , northamptonshire , lincolneshire , huntingtonshire , bedfordshire , buckingamshire , oxfordshire , staffordshire , darbyshire , shropshire , nottingamshire , cheshire , and halfe hertfordshire . these holy men are they , which , vnder god , are to haue the prayse , and not austin , who brought some , but few in comparison of these , to the profession of christ : but withall , besmeared them with romish superstitions . and such others as were already christians , hee endeuoured to loade with humane inuentions , and vnnecessary ceremonies , and was ( if not the cause ) yet the occasion of the destruction of many , and of the miserable and mercilesse slaughter of the godly monkes at bangor , to the number of 1200. for that these poore monkes would not submit to him , whom they saw to be too proud , and not so humble a man , as a man of god ought to haue been . v. that this our religion was here before austin , it may appeare by that publike doctrine of the church which was taught about the time of gregory , ( who sent in hither this austin ) concerning the blessed sacrament , altogether agreeing with our present doctrine , and plainely opposite to the doctrine of the now church of rome . for in an homily of the saxon tongue , appointed to be preached on easter day , throughout euery church , the bread is acknowledged to be naturally corruptible bread , and corruptible wine ; truly christs body and blood , yet not so bodily , but spiritually ; and nothing therein to be vnderstood bodily , but all spiritually . if this was the publike doctrine , so fully herein agreeing with vs , so contrary now to the romish beliefe , in their transubstantiated bread ( for deniall whereof they haue murthered so many , and now hold it still so maine an article of their romane beliefe , ) how can it be otherwise imagined , all things also before considered withall , but that the religion then , was our religion now , and not this of the church of rome ? vi. it cannot be denied , if our religion bee the same , which was planted by the apostles in the easterne churches , from which our religion was brought hither as is afore deliuered , but that then this our religion was before austines time . but that ours is the same , the apostles writings written to the churches shew . secondly , an apostle , or some apostolicall men here taught it . thirdly , the writings of the greeke fathers for 600. yeres space after christ ( which is all the space from christ to this austin ) giue testimonie to our religion in the maine points thereof , as is prooued before in the third argument . fourthly , it is euident euen by those things , which yet the churches at this day in those parts doe hold with vs , and wherein wee and they agree against the now romish religion . for the greekes denie the popes supremacie , purgatorie , and prayer for the deliuerance of soules out of it , the necessitie of auricular confession , meritorious satisfaction of the iustice of god , transubstantiation , carued images and statues . they deny , that saints departed , heare our prayers . they administer the sacraments in both kinds , and allow ministers marriage . they mixe not water with wine , they vse not vnleauened bread . they admit not priuate masses , nor the circumgestation , or adoration of the sacrament , nor the publike seruice in an vnknowne tongue . they teach the assurance of saluation in christ , and renounce the merit of workes . all which are opposite to the now romish religion , and are the truths of our religion , taught by the apostles , and holy ancient fathers , from the beginning , in the easterne churches , wherein they are not falne from that which at first they receiued , as they be in some other things , which they teach and practise . vii . the religion which we professe , is the same which was at rome , at the time of the three conuersions of england , as they call them ; and therefore was this our religion before austines comming , and here professed when hee came in . the first conuersion was in the apostles dayes ; but in their daies , was our religion at rome , as saint pauls epistle written to the saints there , and other of his epistles declare ; as also the epistles of saint peter ( whom they would faine haue to haue been at rome ) to which our religion agreeth wholy and fully , wherein soeuer wee now differ from the present doctrine of the church of rome . let their writings be iudge , from which our aduersaries haue greatly erred , as is euidently prooued in all the maine poynts of the christian faith. and therefore was it our religion then professed at rome , and not this new romish faith. the second conuersion they make to bee in eleutherius dayes , who wrote , as they acknowledge , vnto our king here , called lucius . if here was any conuersion wrought , it was to our religion , and not to the present romish trentisme , as may be clearely gathered out of that epistle of eleutherius , and which they doe approue of , as written to the same lucius . first , eleutherius there telleth the king , that he had receiued the law and faith of christ . secondly , ( as hereby shewing him where this law and faith was to bee found ) he telleth him againe immediatly vpon these former words , that he had receiued both the parts of the scriptures . thirdly , he so commendeth the scriptures to the king and his councell , that thence , by gods grace , they themselues might take a law to rule the kingdome . this bishop did not take vpon him to prescribe them lawes , hee alloweth them ( being lay persons , as they now speake ) to meddle with the holy scriptures , and from thence ( and not from him , nor from his lawes , nor from the lawes of the romanes ) to take a law to liue by . this bishop therefore held the scripture sufficient for a direction and guide to a whole kingdome ; hee held them not so obscure , but that the king and his councell ( by gods grace ) though but young christians , might learne out of them the wil of god , how hee would haue a christian kingdome gouerned . fourthly , this godly bishop calleth lucius gods vicar in his owne kingdome , and alleageth scripture to prooue it ; hee was not then swolne vp with the pride of antichristian supremacy , nor conceited any temporall power ouer kings , as now the popes doe . lastly , hee puts wholly the care of the people vpon the king , as a father to looke to his children , to call them to the faith and law of christ , and to the holy church , hereby acknowledging the king to bee the supreme head and gouernour in all causes , aswell ecclesiasticall , as ciuill , and to be gods vicar in his owne realme ; which title that bishop twice nameth in that epistle . thus we see out of this short epistle , what we may thinke of the religion then at rome , and how agreeing to ours now , and differing from theirs at this present . the third conuersion ( for which they magnifie so much this austin , but very falsely ) was in gregorie the great his dayes . in which time , though many corruptions were crept into the church of rome : yet the maine points of our differences , wherein we differ from this present romish superstition , were then taught in that church , as may appeare out of the writings of gregorie , as he did then teach , concerning holy scriptures , the grace of god , of freewill , of the law , of iustification , of faith , of good workes , also concerning the not worshipping of images , likewise of the acknowledging of the two sacraments , also his iudgement of the church , of the head of the church , of antichrist , of an vniuersall bishop , of secular power ouer bishops , of marriage , of soules departed , and whither they went. gregorie was no patrone of the romish masse , nor of the corporall and transubstantiated bread , nor of merit , nor of papall supremacy , nor of temporall iurisdiction ouer kings and emperours , nor of the necessitie of ceremonies alike in euery church . gregorie held not the machabees canonicall , but taught the perfection of canonicall scripture ; he exhorted lay men to the studie of them , and in his time the scriptures were allowed , and prayers were said in a knowne and vulgar tongue : he held the catholike church to be the elect , and the reprobate out of it , and was against marriages within degrees forbidden , leuit. 18. thus we see that at the three conuersions , our religion now , and that at rome then , was one and the same . neither can our aduersaries shew the contrary from scripture , from the vniforme consent of ancient fathers , either greeke or latine , or from generall councels within those times , no nor from the bishops of rome themselues , for that space ; if they will make conscience to deale squarely , plainly and honestly in their proofes . and that they may so doe , i would entreate to lay aside , first , all counterfeite decretall epistles such as those be , which are ascribed to the bishops of rome in the first 300 yeeres , as our learned men haue prooued both by reasons , and from the testimonie of the learned among them . secondly , those partly corrupted , and partly also counterfeit decretall epistles , in the next 300. yeeres . thirdly , all the counterfeite and corrupt canons of councels . fourthly , all the bastard writings put vpon the ancient fathers . fifthly , the places corrupted in any of their writings . if they will cast off this great and wicked deceite , in alleaging these for themselues , the truth of my assertion , that this our religion was then at rome , and not this their present romish faith , will manifestly appeare to all men not wilfully blinded , for by and worldly respects . lastly , the christian religion first planted in ireland , was before austins comming in hither . for , as is afore spoken , scottish and irish christian bishops withstood him at his comming . but that which was then receiued , and professed by the ancient irish , was for substance the very same , which is now here in england by publike authoritie maintained , as is substantially proued by a godly learned father in all antiquities of the church , the lord bishop of meeth ; to which i referre euery reader , which desireth to bee satisfied in theirs , and our agreement about scripture translations , predestination , freewill , the law , sinne , free remission of sins , iustification by faith onely , imperfection of sanctification , merit , purgatory , and soules departed , about gods worship , images , the masse , communicating in both kinds , and the mysticall receiuing of the sacrament . that learned man doth shew , how wee and they doe agree in all these things , which are the most maine points of faith betwixt our aduersaties and vs. and therefore i conclude from this , and all that formerly hath been produced in this fifth argument , that this our present religion was heere in this iland before austines time . vi. argument . from god the author , and continuall preseruer of our religion , against all oppositions . that religion which is of god , was before luthers time : for that which is of god , cannot bee ascribed to man ; nor so new , as the late dayes of luther . for the true religion is the most ancient , and this is the good way to be found in the old wayes , and not in new inuentions , and new by-paths . but our religion is of god , which i thus prooue : it was taught by the prophets and apostles , messengers of god : the prophets were sent by him , 2. chron. 36.16 . 2. king. 17.13 . ier. 25.4 . by whom god spake , heb. 1.1 . and they taught and wrote , as the holy ghost directed them , 2. pet. 1.21 . 2. tim. 3.25 . the apostles were sent of god , matth. 10.5 . mark. 16.16 . gal. 1.1 , 12. and spake , as god by his spirit directed them , matth. 10.20 . ioh. 14.26 . these were the publishers of our religion , both in the common truthes of our christianitie , as also in the differences from our aduersaries . and for proofe , wee appeale to the apostles and prophets extant writings . our religion is written in those holy scriptures , the booke of god , as before is prooued . it is propagated and preserued by such meanes , as be ordained of god , of which also before . it is receiued , beleeued , conscience made of it , onely by the operation of the spirit of god. it bringeth men to the true knowledge of god , to beleeue onely in god , to worship onely god , onely to honour god , and to be ruled onely after the will of god. it s onely vpheld and preserued by gods , and not by mans power . this will easily bee granted , if men consider what weake meanes , in mans iudgement , hath spred it abroad , and brought it into esteeme with such as professe it truly , ( to wit ) onely preaching , praying , and constantly suffering in the defence thereof . also , the small number , and meanenesse of the persons for the most part , which haue from the dayes of iesus christ , made profession thereof ; and withall , the little worldly policy vsed for helpe to support it . but on the other side , if the enemies thereof be well considered , who haue continued from the beginning of the gospell , perpetually endeuouring to vndermine our religion , euery one will yeeld it to be the very hand of god , that maintaineth it . the multitude of them out of the church are infinite ; as iewes , gentiles , saracens , turkes , and a world of other infidels . the heretikes which haue risen vp , and gone out from the true church , and haue laboured to shake the very foundation of our christian faith , very many . the hypocrites and prophane , are too many , which professing the same together with vs , yet are deadly enemies to the effectuall operation thereof , denying the power of it , and deriding such as striue to liue strictly , and would expresse the liuely vertue and force of it . what diuisions , what varietie of sects and schismes , haue , and doe yet hinder the growth of our religion ? and lastly , these last enemies of it , the papists , vnder that antichrist of rome ; against whom , if god himselfe had not fought , and vpheld our religion , they had ere this , vtterly extinguished it . and who will denie this , that seriously considereth our simplicitie , and their deepe policie ; our too much distractions , their strong combination ; our small strength , their great power ; our meane estates , their abundance of wealth and treasures ; our more then supine carelesnesse , their continuall watchfulnesse , and daily endeuours , which possibly satan can put into their hearts , to root out our holy profession ? as by their cruell inquisition , mercilesse persecution , barbarous massacres , horrible treasons , vniust inuasions , bloody warres , the neuer to be forgotten gunpowder plot , killing of kings , faithlesse and treacherous dealings , playing fast and loose with vs by lying equiuocations , and mentall reseruations , in all couenants , promises , and oathes : besides their shamelesse belying our persons , foule and false taxing vs of errours and heresies , imputed to our doctrine and religion , libertinisme , atheisme , and other abominations ; their flattering of kings , and suggestion of falshoods of disloyaltie against such , as they find best affected to our religion ; their politike framing of their religion for worldly respects , to euery mans humor , to entangle the sooner mens minds , to get the more to them ; besides all those hellish deuices before mentioned in the first argument , among which is the corrupting of fathers , and the writings of learned men , both old and new , that so we might be altogether destitute of all humane testimonies to witnesse with vs , or any helpe of man , but to be left to stand ( as indeed wee doe ) by the hand of god , the onely author of our faith and religion , and the onely blessed preseruer of the same hitherto , before luther was borne ; who now also euen in these troublesome times doth keepe it on foote , against all the power and policie of our enemies , praysed bee his holy name for euer and euer , amen . if our aduersaries thinke , that here is all that can be said for vs , or that onely we can thus prooue our religion , they are much deceiued : for much more may bee said , and also otherwise , euen by historie , may our religion , and the professours be shewed at large . this , for the present , is onely to confirme such , as in our church truly feare god , and make conscience of their wayes : for such doers of gods will shall know , whether this doctrine be of god , or no , ioh. 7.17 . the avthors farther helpe to stay the honest-hearted protestant from apostacie . wel-disposed reader , thou hast an answer to the question , where our religion was before luther ? if yet further they aske thee , where were the professors thereof also before this time ? thou mayst thence shape them this answere , euen where the apostles and apostolicall men did teach it , and where saints professed it , and martyrs dyed for it . it is not so difficult a matter , as they would make the world beleeue , to bring forth in euery age the professours of this our christian faith. a harder and a more impossible taske is it , for them to prooue from christ and his apostles , who , and where the persons were , that in euery age made an intire profession of euery point , which now this their present romish church teacheth and practiseth . we will doe the former , if they will faithfully performe this latter . they haue set out , as they call it , a catalogue of chiefe pastors , generall councels , and catholike professors , of which they much glory , seducing therewith the simple and vnaduised . they doe begin with christ , then follow they on with saint peter , and other bishops of rome on the one side : on the other , they place the virgin marie , iohn baptist , saint iohn the apostle , with other apostles and euangelists : then they reckon vp christian churches , as the romans , corinthians , galatians , and the rest , to whom saint paul and saint peter wrote ; and so they run on along to the end . now this is it , that thou shouldest demand of them , and put them to proue , whether christ and his apostles taught , and all the rest there mentioned , did learne and practise , all that the church of rome now doth ? if they can shew this but in the first hundred of yeeres , professe thou to be satisfied , and not to require farther after a continuall succession in the ages following . presse this home to them , stand onely vpon this ; this is plaine dealing , to begin with them , where they begin . and if they will not indeuour to satisfie thee in this , certainely the catalogue of the names of christ , of his apostles , and the rest in the primitiue church , are put onely in the forefront to coozen thee , if they can . for will they begin it with christ , saint peter , and the rest , and yet not proue them of their present religion ? if they can , why doe they it not ? why doe they seeke to put it off ? if they cannot , why claime they these , for the authors and maintainers of this their present romish religion ? i say , their present romish religion ; because there is a great difference betweene the religion once at rome in the apostles dayes , and the religion of rome now ; that of the church then , this of the court and faction there now . and here i pray thee wel vnderstand this one thing , to wit , what they meane by their religion , as we also doe by our religion ; we neither side took it only for that wherein we both do agree , but chiefely because of the distinct differences thereof either from the other : this obserue , that thou mayst not be deceiued by the catalogue . and the better to cleare thy iudgement therein , let them shew thee , that iesus christ , that also his apostles , with the rest , in the first hundred of yeeres , taught not onely that , wherein wee and they doe agree ( for so they gaine nothing to themselues , but the catalogue therein serues for vs , aswell as for them ) but also that they taught and obserued all their now present differences from vs : as for example , let them shew that then was taught , and the churches learned ; i. to picture the holy trinitie , to make images , to worship them , to adore the virgin marie , as our lady , and the queene of heauen : also to pray vnto other saints and angels , and to adore their images and reliques . ii. to hold the scriptures to be imperfect and obscure , that the apocryphall bookes were of diuine authoritie , the latine translation was to bee authenticall , that traditions were to be added to perfit the scriptures , concerning necessarie matters of saluation ; that the authoritie of the holy scriptures doth depend vpon the authoritie of the church ; that they are not to be made so free , as to be read and studied of all without licence . iii. to hold seuen sacraments , that baptisme is to bee administred with hallowed water , with chrysme , salt , spittle , coniuring , and other deuices . iv. to beleeue , that the priest may receiue the sacrament alone , and yet many other christians to be there present looking on : that the bread without the cup , is to bee giuen to the people : that after the words of consecration , the bread is turned into the very naturall body of christ , the accidents of bread and wine onely remaining , but not the substance : that it is to be adored and prayed vnto , and to be carried about in procession : that it is to bee administred with such varietie of garments , alterations of gestures , and change of voyce : that it is a propitiatorie sacrifice for the quicke and the dead . v. to make prayer , to administer the sacraments , and to say all diuine seruice in an vnknowne tongue ; to say the creed amongst prayers , the aue marie as a prayer , with the pater noster vpon beades with crosses , and that to a certaine number , repeating the aue marie fortie times , and the pater noster foure times , with a creed at the end : that many thus praying , though they vnderstand not the words which they vtter , yet hauing a good intent , they do a work pleasing to god. vi. to hold the church of rome to bee the mother church , the onely one , holy , catholike , and apostolike church : that it could not erre , and that all which should not beleeue euer , as it beleeueth , should not bee held for sound christians , and such as should not submit to her authoritie , to be held heretikes . vii . to hold the pope of rome to bee christs vicar , and peters successor : that all should depend vpon him , as vpon their head : that he as pope cannot erre è cathedrâ : that to him , as of right , belongeth the spirituall and temporall iurisdiction , and so hath authoritie to make lawes , to bind conscience , to depose kings , and to dispose of their kingdomes : that he and his clergy are exempt from the authoritie of secular power . viii . to hold seuen degrees of priesthood : that there are sacrifizing priests , in the time of the gospell : that all the clergie are to liue a single life . ix . to set vp high and worldly dignities in the church , as kingly cardinals , prince-like vnpreaching prelates and pastors ouer congregations , not able to teach them : to allow infinite orders of monkes , friers and nunnes . x. to beleeue , that there is a limbus patrum , a limbus infantium , and a place called purgatorie . in their catalogue they are to bring christ , his apostles , and all the rest therein named , for teachers and professours of these things and the like , else are they not to be reputed of this their present religion . vrge them ( friendly reader ) vnto the proofe of these particular differences ; till then , keepe thy right standing , and be not mooued with a shew of names . in the meane space , that thou mayest be well assured , that thou art a true member of the catholike church of christ , though no romane catholike , haue recourse vnto thy baptisme , and the couenant which god made with thee , and thou with him therein . aske them ( when any of them goeth about to seduce thee ) whether they thinke , that thou hast receiued true baptisme ? if they say , yea , ( as they cannot answere truly otherwise , though wee were baptized of very condemned heretikes , as the trent councel decreeth ) then demand of them againe , whether true baptisme doth admit the baptized into the true church of god , or no ? if it doe , know of them , that then being thereby receiued into the true church , why thou and wee so baptized , should not still be of it in their account ? will them to shew , what we teach and beleeue , differing from them , that hath disannulled our couenant with god , and how we come to bee out of the church ? the romane catechisme ( which with them is of great authority ) telleth vs , that men are out of the church , as infidels , which neuer were in it ; as heretikes , schismatiks , and excommunicated persons , once of it ; whereto may be added , such as be apostates , wholly renouncing christ . taking this for granted , that these be all , and then that we be none of these , it must needs follow , that we are through baptisme yet in the true church . i hope , our aduersaries will not say , that wee be either of the first , or last sort : let them cleare vs of that , and wee will well enough acquit our selues of the rest . i. we are not ( though they so call vs commonly ) heretikes : if they please , let the catholike moderator pleade for vs , or let them beleeue their owne moderate answerer ( to whom my l. of couentry and lichfield maketh reply ) who saith , that he supposeth , that no one particular learned catholike in this kingdome , doth , or will defend this opinion , that protestants are heretikes , and excommunicate . if these on their side will not be sufficient to cleare vs , let vs learne from them , what an heretike is , and so cleare our selues thereby . an heretike ( saith the romane catechisme ) is he which neglecting the churches authority , doth maintaine impious opinions obstinately . by this wee cannot be proued to bee heretikes , this cannot agree to vs. for first , we may demand , what impious opinions either affirmatiue , or negatiue , doe we hold , which they can iustly task vs of ? let them instance what pleaseth them , and then prooue the same to be heresie : first , by plaine and pregnant places of holy scripture , which may conuince the conscience of indifferēt men . secondly , by general councels , or by any one generall councell within 600. yeres after christ ( in which space were most famous & renowned councels ) that hath condemned any maine doctrine of our faith for heresie . thirdly , by the vnanimous consent , and generall voyce of the greeke and latine fathers , for that space condemning the same for heresie , and for an impious opinion . let them , if they be able , shew , first , in our faith , that wee hold any thing , against any article of our creed , which is the summe of our beliefe . secondly , in our prayers , any thing against the patterne of all true prayers , commonly called , the lords prayer . thirdly , in our deeds , which we teach to be done , or bid to be left vndone , any thing against any of the commandements in the decalogue , the rule of our obedience . if they can thus fairely and euidently proceede , they should doe well so to conuince vs. secondly , if any impious opinions could be found among vs , it must be considered , whether they be broched by priuate persons , or tenents held of the church in her publike records : if the former , then are they not the churches ; if the church should hold any such , how can they proue , that she maintaineth them obstinately ? for obstinacy is not to be imputed vnto vs , till all lawfull , good , and sufficient meanes haue been vsed to conuince our iudgement , and the same also by such , as haue lawfull and full authority to iudge and determine thereof . but hitherto this hath not been done , neither can it be , but by a lawfull and free generall councell , which the conuenticle of trent was not : till then we are not to be condemned of obstinacy , and so as yet no heretikes . thirdly , we neither haue neglected , nor yet doe neglect the true catholike churches authority , into which wee are receiued by baptisme . for we very willingly desire to heare her sentence : but where can that bee , except in a generall councels determination ? therein to heare the catholike church speaking to vs from the scriptures , we greatly long for , we readily submit vnto . let her thus speak , that we may know her iudgement , and we will hearken thereunto . as for the church of romes authoritie , we doe not acknowledge it ouer vs , because it is not , nor euer was in her best estate , the catholike church , but onely a particular church , which now also is a party questioned . and therfore her authoritie for her selfe against vs , is no more of vs to be regarded , then by them our churches authority for her selfe against them . seeing then that by their definition , wee are not conuinced of heresie , wee are not out of the church as heretikes . ii. not as schismatikes . for albeit we haue no departed from this romish church , yet are we no schismatikes . first , for that we keepe communion with the catholike church , into which we by baptisme were admitted , which is the body of christ , and wee truly members thereof , in faith and loue , through the worke of gods spirit , being built vpon the foundation of the apostles and prophets , iesus christ himselfe being the corner-stone . secondly , because this church of rome hath falne from the faith and obedience commended by s. paul , to be in the church at rome in his time , as appeareth in many particulars before named , which the church first planted at rome , neuer taught , neuer beleeued , nor practised : therefore are we no schismatikes for leauing her in those things , wherein she hath left the true and apostolike church at the beginning . thirdly , for that wee doe not breake off from her simply , but in some respect , that is , as farre foorth as she hath forsaken her former selfe ; so that if shee would returne to the catholike faith and religion , and forsake her trentisme , iesuitisme , and popery , the inuentions of her owne , added to that which first she did professe , wee want not charitie towards her , to vnite our selues vnto her againe . for otherwise , neither our true loue to god , nor true loue to his church , will suffer vs to liue with her , so defiled as she is , in the spirituall bond of sacred loue , which knits the true members of christ one to another . heauenly charity , which maketh this vnitie , admitteth not of such things into the vnitie of faith , as bee taught and practised in that church , both sinfull against god , and pernicious to mens soules , yea , vtter destruction to them , without hearty repentance . fourthly , wee haue a warrant , yea , a commandement from god , to separate our selues from her , for that she is become the great whore , and spirituall babylon , reuel . 18.4 . this charge of god freeth vs from schisme : for there is no sin , no schisme , in that which god commandeth to be done . fifthly , we by leauing this romish church , doe not deuide our selues from the true , catholike and apostolike church , but by this separation doe we indeed returne to the vnitie of it , and to our first blessed estate therein , when first the gospell was here planted in this iland by apostles , or apostolicall men , which came hither , not from rome , but from ierusalem , our mother church , where the lord and his blessed apostles first began to teach , and erect a church , which is the church we returne vnto in doctrine and worship of god : from which holy , catholike , and apostolike church , wee were drawne by the vsurping and tyrannical power and iurisdiction of the pope and his faction , and the generall backsliding of this his church . so as this which they call schisme , is no schisme in vs , but a forsaking of schisme in them , and is only a returning vnto , and a recouerie of our selues againe to our former vnion with christs true church , beginning at ierusalem , and planted here many hundred yeeres , before the monke austin euer came into england . sixthly , they are properly called schismatikes ( saith aquinas ) which of their owne accord and will , separate themselues from the vnitie of the church . if this be true in the iudgement of this their owne so greatly honoured doctor , then certainely wee are no schismatikes . first , of our owne accord and will we make not a separation , but are inforced therto by the power of gods commandement , to come out of this babylon , to auoyde her sinnes , to escape thereby her punishments . she her selfe hath caused deuision , and offences , contrary to the doctrine which shee once receiued , as the epistles of s. paul and s. peter , do in many particulars witnesse against her . the apostle s. paul therefore wils vs to auoyde her , and such as cause deuision and offences , contrary to the apostles doctrine , rom. 16.17 . it may seeme from hence that a faction begun euen then among you . secondly , we doe not separate from the church , that is , from the vniuersall catholike church , but from a church , that is , the particular church of rome : for thomas doth not say , he is a schismatike , which separateth from a church , but from the vnitie of the church , to wit , the church vniuersall , which is but one . for indeed , no reason can bee giuen , why any should deuide themselues from the true catholike church : but good reasons may be giuen , why a particular church may be , and ought to bee forsaken ; as wee doe giue , for our departing from the church of rome : for we are commanded to forsake idolaters , 1. cor. 5.11 . heretikes , tit. 3.10 . such as bring not the doctrine of christ , and doe not abide therein , 2. ioh. 10. and her that is called babylon , reuel . 18.4 . thirdly , before we can be schismatikes , we must forsake the vnitie of the church . now wherein stands this vnitie ? standeth it only in affection of loue , or also in the faith of the truth ? for both these graces the apostle commendeth the churches , ephes . 1.15 . 2. thes . 1.3 . and faith is preferred to the first place in both scriptures . we haue not forsaken the vnitie of the faith , of which s. paul speakes , eph 4.13 . for we teach the doctrine of the apostles , and no other in any thing , when we differ from this present church of rome , which hath lost her first faith , of truth in many things . now , can true diuine loue be there kept , where faith is lost ? or can there be charitie to vnite , where doctrine doth deuide ? can light and darkenesse , truth and falsehood cohabite in loue ? truth and loue onely dwell together ; and for truths sake , loue separateth from falshood , wheresoeuer she finds it . and therefore except they can proue , that we haue lost the vnitie of faith , wee haue not forsaken the vnitie of the church in loue , as the former reasons shew . to conclude , were the priests and leuites schismatikes , which left the people of israel , once the people of god in dauids and salomons dayes , and many hundred yeeres before , when idolatrie , vnder pretence to worship no false , but the true god , was set vp , and they not suffered then to do their office vnto the lord , as their office required ? if they were not , no more are we . for why doe we forsake the romish church ? is it not , because she hath set vp a new manner of seruice vnto god , new kinds of priests , new holy-dayes , new sacraments , new orders , and will not permit the lords seruants and ministers to do their offices vnto the lord , as he hath by his written word prescribed ? therefore seeing we are not guiltie of schisme , we are not as schismatikes out of the church , into which by baptisme wee are receiued . iii. not as excommunicate persons . for if we be neither heretikes , nor schismatikes , vpon what other ground will they iudge vs to be proceeded against ? there are other causes , for which men are excommunicate : but in this question our aduersaries cannot pleade any such . againe , i aske , if wee bee excommunicate , who hath pronounced the sentence ? is it the romish church ? by what authoritie ? their church is not the catholike church , but only a particular , as ours is , and it is by vs questioned , and therefore in reason it cannot bee both a partie accused , and also a iudge against vs in her owne cause . thirdly , we doe appeale from her vnrighteous iudgement , to a lawfull generall councell , where , vpon earth , our cause is onely to bee heard and decided lawfully . till which time , wee ( for any censure of this church of rome ) doe remaine in the true church , into which by baptisme wee are admitted ; out of which , as yet , we are not lawfully iudged to bee , by any lawfull and supreme authoritie , as either heretikes , schismatikes , or as excommunicate persons . therefore ( christian-harted reader ) thou that art a member of the church of england , though thou beest no romanist , assure thy soule , that thou art of that church , which is vndoubtedly a member of the true , ancient , catholike , and apostolike church , in which abiding , thou maist , through the merits of thy blessed sauiour , obtaine eternall life , if thou so beleeuing doest demeane thy selfe , as it becommeth a good christian , and a protestant in earnest . and for thine owne more certaine assurance and stable abiding , let me aduise thee to a few things . haue a care to keepe thy couenant in thy baptisme , that thou mayst be better perswaded , that god keepes his with thee , and so to be one of his in the true church . labour to feare god , for it is the beginning of wisdome , and the secrets of the lord are with such as feare him , and he will shew them his couenant , psal . 25.14 . haue euer a loue of the truth , and god will not giue thee ouer to beleeue lyes : for this is a iudgement befalling such as loue not the truth , beleeue it not , but take pleasure in vnrighteousnesse . be a doer of the word , and thou shalt know the doctrine , whether it bee of god , or no. beware of affected ignorance , and carelesse neglect of knowledge , but vse the meanes appointed to attaine vnto it . exercise thy selfe much in prayer , beg of god wisdome , and hee will giue it thee ; his spirit , and he will vouchsafe it thee ; pray against sedition , and god will keepe thee ; frequent the company of such as haue knowledge , the feare of god before them , the loue of the truth in them , and make conscience of their wayes . aske aduice of faithfull teachers , listen not to false teachers , feare to be seduced . and further , that thou mayst both defend the truth , and also be able according to thy measure receiued , to resist the aduersaries ; i. learne carefully the truthes of god , necessarie to saluation , set downe in holy scriptures . such truths are very manifestly and plainely deliuered , either in expresse termes , or by an vndoubted consequent drawne from thence : and all such necessarie points as concerne all , are written in the scriptures , as their bellarmine confesseth . with these scriptures acquaint thy selfe , and being an ordinarie christian , doe not trouble thy selfe about obscure places : for plaine and easie places will bee sufficient to confirme thy faith in any thing necessarie for thee , to beleeue and practize in the way of saluation . ii. be well grounded in the catechisme , the parts whereof are the creed , the lords prayer , the decalogue , and the doctrine of the sacraments : for these are the compendium , or short summe of all christianitie . these well vnderstood , will furnish thee with reasons to withstand seducers . there is not any thing of which they shall speake , but the same may be brought to some head in catechisme , as either concerning faith , and so referred to the creed , or concerning prayer , and so referred to the lords prayer , or concerning obedience , and so referred to the decalogue , or ten commandements , or else touching the sacraments , the seales of our faith. iii. adde to these , certaine considerations , by which thou mayest defend the truth , and ouerthrow falshood , as the common law of nature , common reason , right vse of senses , common experience , common equitie , common charitie , common honestie , the witnesse of knowne martyrs ; whereto adde the corruption of our nature , allowing or disliking of any thing . by the plaine euidence of scripture , by the catechisme , and by these considerations , mayst thou trie all things , which be necessarie for thee to stand vpon . if a seducer come to thee , and that he will needs deale with thee , obserue two things ; first , not to regard what he saith ; if it be not about necessarie points . secondly , see that his confirmation , or confutation , bee onely by either some , or all these three aforenamed ; to wit , plaine scriptures , the parts of the catechisme , and those considerations , from whence if hee cannot proue his assertions , beleeue him not . if he begin to tell thee of councels , ancient fathers , and the churches custome in all ages : answere him , first , that the three former are knowne to thee , the bible common at hand , the catechisme in thy remembrance , and the consideration of such as are without difficultie : but as for these three last , great reading , and learning , and knowledge in historie , are required to vnderstand them well , and to cite them truly . they are for the best learned of the world , and not for any of the common sort : ordinarie men cannot iudge aright by them , neither will any such presume , to thinke such abilitie to be in them , if they would take notice of diuers things concerning councels , fathers , and the churches custome . i. touching councels , they must know , that they are not only subiect to errour , but also haue erred : that they haue contradicted one another : that some of them haue been carried by a strong faction : that ancient fathers would not rest euer vpon the sole authoritie of councels : that papists themselues , though they pretend them , yet doe not wholly resigne their iudgement vnto them : that there are some counterfeite and forged councels , and counterfeite canons added to true councels . can an ordinarie man then iudge of these things ? and if he cannot , let him not be deceiued by pretence of them . ii. touching the ancient fathers , this they must know , that they are found to be of differing opinions , and had contentions among themselues : that they held not their owne iudgements infallible , nor submitted to one another otherwise then men godly and learned doe now , but onely as by good reason and authoritie they were ouercome : that they haue erred ; and this is acknowledged by most learned men on both sides : that our aduersaries of the greatest note , do often shake off their authoritie , when they are against them : that of the fathers writings , some are doubted of , some are corrupted , and many counterfeites are put out vnder their names : that the iudgement of all the fathers cannot be had for all our controuersies . these things being so , how idle is it then for ordinarie men to be talking of fathers , of the opinion of all the fathers , or for any such men to be carried away with such a sound , which is not possible for them to vnderstand , seeing our aduersaries alleage them for their selues , and we more truly for our selues ? iii. concerning the churches custome and path in euerie age , let them consider , that this is very vncertaine . historians haue not alwaies in euery relation bin found faithfull : that euerie age hath not had in it such as haue truly written of the church : that a man may spend his whole life , in seeking out the whole churches course , and yet not be able to find it out . i suppose , i erre not , if i say , that all men now liuing , cannot do it exactly in euery age. and therefore it s but a gulling flourish of our aduersaries , to boast of the whole church in euery age , and yet withall , so boasting fraudulently to meane their owne particular romane church . by alleaging then these arguments , to wit , councels , fathers , and the generall custome of the whole church , the conscience of an ordinarie christian cannot bee throughly satisfied , his knowledge cannot herein bee certaine to conuince his iudgement , these are beyond his reach and capacitie . be aduised therefore not to be drawne with these reasons , which are to thee so vncertaine , but rest vpon the other which be plaine and easie , within thy capacitie , and certaine vnto thee ; by which thou mayst , through gods helpe , maintaine that which thou professest , and confute the aduersaries vntruths , or at least , gather thence such strength , as they shall not easily draw thee to beleeue them : as for instance , in some particulars i wil shew thee . they say , that the pope is the head of the catholike church . there is no plaine scripture for this . we find iesus christ to be called the head of the church , but no other . it s no article of our creed ; therefore thou art not bound to beleeue it . but i adde this , that what we beleeue , is inuisible , heb. 11.1 . and not seene , 2. cor. 5.7 . if therefore the pope be the head , there must be a visible head , of an inuisible body . againe , the head immediately giues life , motion , and direction to its true body , which the pope cannot doe to christs church . it s also vnreasonable to thinke , two heads to bee for one body ; whether one besides another , or one vnder another , it is a monstrousity . common experience testifieth against the popes inabilitie to performe the true office of the true head to gods church . they say , that he cannot erre . let it be taken in the best sense they can conceiue it , there is no plaine scripture which giueth this , to any one particular person . it s no article of our creed to beleeue it , experience hath found him to haue erred foully . they say , that after the words of consecration , the bread is turned into the very body of christ , and the wine into his bloud , so as iesus christ is there corporally , as he was borne of the virgin marie , vnder the accidents of bread and wine . in holy scripture there is no such thing taught , there is a sacramentall phrase , this is my body ; and the like vsed in the sacraments of the old testament , this is my couenant , gen. 17.10 . this is the lords passeouer , exo. 12.11 . the rocke was christ , 1. cor. 10.4 . but yet no turning one substance into another . the creed teacheth vs to belieue him to be in heauen , and thence to expect his comming , when hee shall appeare to iudge the quicke and the dead . this transubstantiation therefore is no part of our faith. it s against reason , for a true body , and continued quantitie , to be in two places , yea , in a thousand mouthes at once . the angels reason vnto marie , mat. 28.6 . confuteth this grosse opinion ; for he said to her , when she with the other marie came to seeke christ ; he is not here , for hee is risen : that is , he is not in this place , because he is else-where in another . if christ could haue been in two places at once , the angels argument had been of no force ; remember that this is an angell-reason , which know wee how to reason truly . this opinion is against our sences , we see not , feele not , nor taste not flesh and blood . now god neuer deluded mans sences , whensoeuer he turned one substance into another : moses staffe was made a serpent , dust was lice , the water blood , and water was wine , and all these sensible . no scripture , nor any other approued testimony can be produced , to shew vndoubtedly the contrarie . yea , this is certaine , that the true body of christ is discernable by sense to be a true bodie wheresoeuer it is ; therefore when the disciples doubted at his sudden appearing , he said , it is i my selfe . and to proue this , he willeth them to vse their senses , saying , handle me , and see ; that so they might discerne his true body , flesh and bones : and so might it be in the sacrament , if indeed and truth he were there corporally . it hath been witnessed against by the blood or many martyrs : but where be so many in defence of our aduersaries grosse opinion ? which of them haue euer hitherto , or dare to suffer for this their opinion , as ours haue done against it ? this opinion of our aduersaries is to be detested for , first , the falshood thereof ; secondly , for the grosse idolatry committed through it , euen a piece of bread adored for almightie iesus christ himselfe . thirdly , for the bloodie crueltie , which for the vpholding of it , hath been done with furious rage vpon the bodies of gods saints , because they would not beleeue this false doctrine , nor commit this abominable idolatrie . fourthly , all such as thus beleeue , sinne not only in the act damnably ( for idolaters perish euerlastingly , reuel . 21.8 . ) but also irrepentantly , because they be perswaded , that in so beleeuing and worshipping , they doe not onely not sin , but doe a most excellent worke , and meritorious seruice to god. they teach , that there is a purgatorie , a place of torment . in holy scriptures we find plainely , heauen , earth , hell , & sea ; but no plaine name of purgatorie , nor limbus patrum , nor limbus infantium . in the decalogue we find heauen , earth , and waters vnder the earth ; and in the lords prayer , heauen and earth ; in the creed , heauen , earth and hell ; but none of the other deuised and faigned places . this purgatory for satisfaction is against common equity : for they say , the sinne is pardoned by christ : and can then in equity the partie be punished ? a creditor forgiues freely to a man all his debt : can he then with equitie after lay him in gaole to make any satisfaction for the same ? they say , that images may be set vp to be adored . the scriptures are plaine against them , deut. 4.15 , 19. esay 40.18 . act. 17.20 . rom. 1.23 . the second commandement , in the decalogue , forbids them , which our aduersaries bid from the people in their vulgar catechismes . our corrupt nature is apt to these things , and therefore the lesse to be liked of . they teach to pray vnto the virgin marie , to saints and angels . the scriptures afford no precept for this , nor any euident example : prayers there are taught to be made vnto god : angels are not to be worshipped , col. 2.18 . reuel . 19.10 . & 22.9 . the lords prayer , the perfect rule of prayer , teacheth vs to pray to god our father in heauen , whensoeuer we pray : now can wee say to the virgin marie , to saint , or angell , our father which art in heauen ? can we pray to any of them , and say , thy name be hallowed , thy kingdome come , thy will be done in earth , as it is in heauen ? can we pray any one of them , to giue vs daily bread , to forgiue vs our sinnes , to deliuer vs from euill ? can we ascribe to any one of them , and say , thine is kingdome , power and glory for euer ? yet this prayer warrants vs , that to whom in heauen we may pray , to him may we say all this : but if not to the virgin marie , not to saint , nor angell , then may wee not pray to them by any warrant of this prayer . our creed teacheth vs to beleeue in none , but god the father , sonne , and holy ghost . now the scripture plainely telleth vs , that wee cannot pray to any , but in whom we beleeue , rom. 10.14 . therefore then not to the virgin marie , nor to saint nor angell , because we are not to beleeue in them . they tell thee , that thou must beleeue the romane-catholik church , and to be also a member thereof , else thou canst not be saued . the scriptures tell vs plainely , that god added to the church such as should be saued , acts 2.47 . but not a word there of the romane church . in our creed , we are taught to beleeue the catholike church , and that we be members of it , but to bee of any romane catholike church , is no article of our creed . besides the speech is absurd , and it is against reason , to call a particular church the generall , or the generall a particular , as the church of rome in the best estate of it neuer was other . and can the obiect of faith be the obiect of sight , as it is the obiect of faith ? now we beleeue the catholike church , but the papists tell vs , that their church is euer visible to the eye . this also which they say , is against common charitie : for must all out of the church of rome , be without hope of saluation ? in the planting of the gospell , there was a church at ierusalem , before any at rome , and many churches planted by saint paul , which neuer had dependance vpon the church of rome ; many churches in the east , and other parts of the world , which are not within the romane iurisdiction , nor doe acknowledge it ; must needs all these be without saluation , because the romane pope is not domineering ouer them ? now god forbid . they will tell thee , that thou must be able to shew thy church , and the professors therof in euery age , else thou art not of the true church . but the holy scriptures neuer bound any to such a taske , neither christ , nor his apostles in all the new testament euer charged any christian church , much lesse any beleeuer with this . it is an article of thy faith , to beleeue that there is a church of god , here and there dispersed abroad in the world . this is a man bound to beleeue , but not that euery one , or any other for him , should be able to make a catalogue of all that went before in the same profession in euery age. one ignorant of this , may yet be of the true church , neither shal the ignorance thereof damne him . they will tell thee , that there are some sinnes in nature veniall in themselues , not deseruing eternall death . the scripture teacheth otherwise , rom. 6.23 . the wages of sinne is death , no exception of any at all . yea , the consent of sinne is worthy of death , rom. 1.23 . in the lords prayer , when we craue pardon of our trespasses without exception , wee thereby acknowledge , that euery kind of trespasse offendeth god , standeth need of forgiuenesse , and therefore what else would follow , if he did not forgiue it , but death ? this false distinction giueth libertie to our corrupt nature to sinne , as experience tels euery of vs , euen in our aduersaries , wallowing licenciously in their supposed veniall sinnes . it may seeme vnreasonable , if there be sinnes veniall in their owne nature , that such a horrible scorching fire , as they make that in purgatorie to bee , should bee prepared to plague soules for the same . the greatest torments in the world , as they say , are not comparable to the torments there : how can it then be possibly imagined , that veniall sinnes , which , as they say , doe not breake friendship with god , should be so terribly punished , by way of satisfaction , and yet god remaine to him , who is so punished , a sure friend ? they teach , that a man hath power to doe gods will , and to auoide euill , and not be ouercome thereof , if he will. the scriptures tell vs , that it is god that workes the will and the deed , phil. 2.13 . and maketh all our sufficiencie to be of him , 2. cor. 3.5 . in the lords prayer , wee are taught to beg of god abilitie to doe his will , and his grace , to deliuer vs from euill : vnder will , is comprehended all good , and vnder euill , is contained whatsoeuer is sinfull , so as it s not in vs to doe good , nor to auoyde euill , but both is gods worke in vs. euery man feeleth this inabilitie in himselfe by experience ; yea , these also which doe maintaine this power in man , if they would confesse it . and why are they not all most holy , if they haue this power ? their damnation is more iust , when they sinne in any measure , then such as want this power , though they fall by infirmitie into greater sinnes . they teach , that a man may fulfill the whole law , and so merit . the scripture teacheth otherwise , luke 17.10 . eccles . 7.20 . prou. 20.9 . psal . 130.3 . iob 9.20 . 1. ioh. 1.8 . iam. 3.2 . in the lords prayer , we aske all of vs forgiuenesse . in the creed wee are taught , not to dreame here of perfection , or of merit ; but to beleeue the forgiuenesse of sinnes . and in reading the law truly vnderstood , it doth cause a mans conscience , euen in the best , to acknowledge himselfe guiltie . i might here goe thorow many other points which they teach , to which from either plaine scriptures , or from the catechisme , or from these considerations , thou maist make answere in thine owne defence . but yet for all this ( though thou also hast gotten helpe to stand for thy selfe ) beware of seducers , run not easily into disputes with them , but rather put them ouer to learned men to be answered . it is not good for eue for to fall into conference with the subtill serpent . be bold vpon these grounds with ordinarie papists , if they will attempt to set vpon thee : but consider thy abilitie , presume not aboue thy measure , continue in gods word , and the lord will vphold thee . to whose blessed guide and fatherly protection , i commit thee . pray we all continually . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a73011-e320 1. cor. 2.11 . 1. cor. 2.14 . rom. 8.7 . verse 5. * origen vpon numb . tertul. de resur . carnis . epiphaen de haeres . lib. 1. cap. 23 , 24 38. irae . li. 1. cap. 23. tertul. de praescript . a●bana . orat . 2. contra arianos . ier. 36. 2. thes . 2. in the popes bull before the catechisme of the councell of trent . a de eccles . pa. 308. b apol. catho . cap. 66. c lib. de antichrist . c. 24. d in his second pillar of pop. e against hart. cap. 8. diuis . 4. pa. 567.568.569 . & 572. f ca. 1. vers . 25. pa. 200 lib. de antichr . cap. 6. to cap. 33. lib. de eccles . cont . 2. quaest . 5. pa. 300. & 308. obiect . answ . obiect . answ . de continu . & statu ecclesiae . see doct. hall his peace of rome . in his symphonia cathol . in his reformed catholike . cambden in brit. p 40.157 . * harison before , hollins . chron. midleton in his papistomastix . pag 202. see the protestants apol. vnder brerelys name . brerely his appeale , trac . 1. sect. 2. pag. 69. beda histor . lib. 2. cap. 2. beda lib. 2. ca. 4. bish . vshers letter , pag. 80.81.82.83 . galfridus monumentisis centur . 6 p. 689. beda lib. 3. hist . cap. 3.6 . ibi. c. 21.22.24 . bish . vsher in his late epistle added to sir chr. sybthorps booke . se archb. parker his booke de anti . brit. cap. 18. se bishop morton his catholike appeale , lib. 1. cap. 2. sect . 8. pag. 11. ibidem lib. 1. ca. 12. sec . 1.2 . see catol . test . veritat . pag. 26. to 69. last edition , 1608. see the epist . in the booke of the lawes of the saxon kings , in the saxons language . also in fox , acts and monum . fol. 69. for the authoritie of this epistle , i take it , as they approue of it , a witnesse good against themselues . see for all these in cat. test . verit . lib. 6. p. 558. see for these bish . mortons catho . appeal . l. 1. c. 2.3.4.4 . doct. feild of the church , b. 5. cap. 34 catol . test . verit . lib. 1. p. 93. see his epistle before named . ier. 6.14 . the papist cannot make a true catalogue from christ , of their present religion . what to demand of them , and to presse them vnto . what are the things , which in their catalogue from christ , they must proue those in the first age to haue maintained . protestants are of the catholike church , though no romanists . in can. 3. de bapt . part. 1. act. 9. cap 10. q. 8. what sorts are out of the church . protestants no heretikes . in his booke of equiuocation . part. 1. art. 9. cap. 10. q. 1. protestants hold no impious opinions condemned for heresie . protestants are not conuicted of obstinacie . see the historie of the councell of trent . protestants do not neglect the authority of the catholike church . protestants are no schismatikes . eph. 3.20 . let them answer the books which prooue her the great whore , babylon , and the pope antichrist , if any denie these things . in summa part . 2. cap. 39. de schismate . reuel . 18.4 . see for these catal. test . verit . pa. 27. to 70. in the last edition . 2. ch. 11.13 , 14 protestants not excommunicate persons . how a man must be qualified , which wil continue in the truth . prou. 1. 2. thes . 2.10 , 11 , 12. ioh. 7.17 . iam. 1.5 . luk. 11.13 . by what helpes to oppose the aduersaries . plaine scriptures . aug. l. 2. de . doct . chr. cap. 6. chrysost . 3. hom . in 2. thes . lib. 4. de verbo dei non scripto , cap. 11. the parts of the catechisme . nine considerations . obserue two things in the aduersaries dealing with thee . three things beyond ordinarie mens capacitie , which they must take heed , they be not deceiued by . ordinarie me● cannot iudge of councels , and why ? not of the allegation of fathers , and why ? not of the allegation of the churches custome , and why ? against the popes headship . against his vnerring spirit . against transubstantiation . exod. 4.3 . & 7.10 , 20 , 21 , 24. & 8.17 . ioh. 2.9 , 10. luke 24.39 . the euill of the doctrine of transubstantiation . against purgatorie . against images , and their worship . against praying to saints . matth. 6. against the romanists , condemning all that are not of their church . against their vrging as necesary , to make a catalogue of our professors in all ages . against their error of veniall sinnes . against mans power to doe well . against their error of mans abilitie to fulfil the law. chillingworthi novissima. or, the sicknesse, heresy, death and buriall of william chillingworth. (in his own phrase) clerk of oxford, and in the conceit of his fellow souldiers, the queens arch-engineer, and grand-intelligencer. set forth in a letter to his eminent and learned friends, a relation of his apprehension at arundell, a discovery of his errours in a briefe catechism, and a shorr [sic] oration at the buriall of his hereticall book. by francis cheynell, late fellow of merton colledge. published by authority. cheynell, francis, 1608-1665. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a79473 of text r13256 in the english short title catalog (thomason e36_7). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 149 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 34 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a79473 wing c3810 thomason e36_7 estc r13256 99859442 99859442 111525 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a79473) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 111525) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 7:e36[7]) chillingworthi novissima. or, the sicknesse, heresy, death and buriall of william chillingworth. (in his own phrase) clerk of oxford, and in the conceit of his fellow souldiers, the queens arch-engineer, and grand-intelligencer. set forth in a letter to his eminent and learned friends, a relation of his apprehension at arundell, a discovery of his errours in a briefe catechism, and a shorr [sic] oration at the buriall of his hereticall book. by francis cheynell, late fellow of merton colledge. published by authority. cheynell, francis, 1608-1665. [68] p. printed for samuel gellibrand, at the brazen serpent in pauls church-yard, london : 1644. annotation on thomason copy: "march 8th"; the 4 in the imprint date is crossed out and altered to 1643. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng chillingworth, william, 1602-1644 -religion -early works to 1800. protestantism -early works to 1800. a79473 r13256 (thomason e36_7). civilwar no chillingworthi novissima.: or, the sicknesse, heresy, death and buriall of william chillingworth. (in his own phrase) clerk of oxford, and cheynell, francis 1644 26252 29 30 0 0 0 0 22 c the rate of 22 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-08 john latta sampled and proofread 2008-08 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion chillingworthi novissima . or , the sicknesse , heresy , death , and buriall of william chillingworth . ( in his own phrase ) clerk of oxford , and in the conceit of his fellow souldiers , the queens arch-engineer , and grand-intelligencer . set forth in a letter to his eminent and learned friends , a relation of his apprehension at arundell , a discovery of his errours in a briefe catechism , and a short oration at the buriall of his hereticall book . by francis cheynell , late fellow of merton colledge . published by authority . london , printed for samuel gellibrand , at the brazen serpent in pauls church-yard , 1644. to the learned and eminent friends of mr chillingworth , and in particular to sir john culpepper , knight , doctor john prideaux bishop of worcester , fell deane of christ-church , bayly deane of sarum , shelden warden of all-soules , potter provost of queenes , and morley canon of christ-church . sirs , your deceased friend is not yet speechlesse , he calls upon you to beware and repent ; some preach more , at least more practically , when they are dead , then ever they did whilst they were alive . you that were his patrons and encouragers , as hee acknowledged ever , when he was in the heigth of his rebellion , doe you beware lest a worse thing come unto you . you that were the licensers of his subtile atheisme , repent , repent ; for he was so hardened by your flattery , that ( for ought the most charitable man can judge ) hee perished by your approbation : he ever appealed to his works even to his very dying day , and what was it , which made him dote upon them , but your licence and approbation ? heark what hee saith , the third and last part of my accusation was , that i answer out of principles , which protestants themselves will professe to detest : which indeed were to the purpose , if it could be justified . but besides that , it is confuted by my whole book , and made ridiculous by the approbation premised unto it , &c. read mr chillingworth his preface to the author of charity &c. sect. 30. sure i am , that the accusation may bee justified , and therefore is to the purpose ; but the approbation cannot bee justified , and is therefore justly reprobated : the accusation is so serious , that the approbation cannot make it ( but may well make the approvers and their church ) ridiculous . o what a ridiculous church doe the licensers make the church of england to be , by saying that there is nothing in mr chillingworth his book contrary to the doctrine of the church of england ; sure they meant the church of canterbury . but dr fell , and dr bayly are not ashamed to say , that there is nothing in that book contrary to good manners , which dr prideaux would not say ; but enough of that . sirs , the following history will testifie my compassion towards your deceased friend , whom i ever opposed in a charitable and friendly way . i doe not account it any glory to trample upon the carkasse of hector , or to pluck a dead lion by the beard ; should i misquote his book , and make that errour mine owne by a false citation , which i pretend to be his in an accusation , you that were the unhappy licencers of his book would soone take me tripping . if you conceive that he deserved a more honourable buriall , bee pleased to answer my reasons , and patronize his errours with all the learning bodleyes library can afford : or else study his catechisme , pardon my boldnesse , some courtiers never learnt , and some doctours have forgot their catechisme , or else this man we speak of had never beene so much admired , his book extolled , or these antichristian warres fomented by such great clerks and busie wits . i looked upon mr chillingworth as one who had his head as full of scruples as it was of engines , and therefore dealt as tenderly with him as i use to doe with men of the most nice and tender consciences : for i considered , that though beefe must bee preserved with salt ; yet plums must be preserved with sugar . i can assure you i stooped as low to him as i could without falling , and you know he is not a wise man in the judgement of the philosopher , who stoops so low to another mans weaknesse , that he himselfe falls into weaknesse : and it is a rule with us at westminster , that he falls into weaknesse who falls into sinne . doe not conceive that i snacht up my pen in an angry mood , that i might vent my dangerous wit , and ease my overburthened spleene . no , no , i have almost forgot the visitation at merton colledge , the deniall of my grace , the plundering of my house and little library : i know when and where and of whom to demand satisfaction for all these injuries and indignities . i have learnt centum plagas spartanâ nobilitate concoquere . i have not yet learnt how to plunder others of goods or living , and make my selfe amends by force of armes . i will not take a living which belonged to any civill , studious , learned delinquent , unlesse it be the much neglected commendam of some lordly prelate condemned by the knowne lawes of the land , and the highest court of the kingdome for some offence of the first magnitude : i can , without straining my conscience , swallow such a gnat , a camel i should say , for every one of their commendams hath a bunch upon its back , and may well make a bunch upon their conscience . i shall not trouble you with any long discourse about state matters , only you will give me leave to say what the lacedemonian slave said , when he stood to be sold in the market ; and one asked him what he was ? i am ( saith he ) a free man , and so am i , for though i have not taken antidotum contra caesarem , yet i have taken antidotum contra tyrannidem . i could never yet stoop so low to the most tyrannicall prelate as to cry your humble slave . sirs , we heare you have made a new almanack at oxford ; and some conceive that you hold correspondence with all the swore planets , and that you have enticed the trusty sunne from his ecliptick line , and taught him to goe retrograde . we wonder , i must tell you , that the sunne never came into libra , that opinions , protestations , actions were seldome or never weighed in the ballance of the sanctuary : and we wondered more , that venus ( i had almost forgot my astronomy , and said iuno ) was shufled into virgo's place , and the signe was in the dogs head , when we did expect it in a more propitious place , the lions heart . i remember that of tertullian , habet & ecclesia dies caniculares , the church of christ hath cause to complaine of dog dayes ; for the dog doth not only shew his teeth ; we heare him bark and feele him bite ; we may in every month write the dog dayes in capitall letters , nay you write them for us ( so capitall are your crimes ) in letters of blood . what is england become a wildernesse ? if it be not , why are so many wilde beasts suffered to goe loose and prey upon the zealous protestants ? for shame chaine up those beasts before the first of march : if shame work not , feare may , the same feare which falls upon the men of northumberland , the feare of a scottish reformation : i will not listen at the doore of your iunto to heare what newes , nor will i peepe into your pretended parliament , no nor into merton colledge , for feare i should see some sights like those in the eighth of ezekiel , some with their backs towards the temple of the lord , and their faces towards the east ; and if i should look farther , one that is no prophet tells me , that i may see greater abominations then these . sir , i beseech you keepe downe your staffe : but if you will hold it up , as eurybiades did , i must cry as themistocles did , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , strike if you please ; yet heare me , or at least heare what the prophet saith to me , doth he not speak of you ? then hee said unto me , hast thou seene this o sonne of man . is it a light thing to the house of iudah , that they commit the abominations which they commit here ? for they have filled the land with violence , and have returned to provoke me to anger : and lo they put their branch to their nose . therefore — read and tremble at the rest . come , come away with this learned atheisme , your iudge looks upon you , the searcher of hearts and discoverer of secrets is acquainted with all your plots . the lord sees what the ancients of oxford doe in the dark , every man in the chambers of his imagery : the lord heares what you say — o doe not say as the ancients of israel said , the lord seeth us not , the lord hath forsaken the earth . i am afraid that you have the same temptations at oxford , which were presented to origen , an ethiopian woman , and an idoll ; he was ( you know ) put to this unhappy choice , to commit folly with which he pleased . some lust as mnch after idols , as others doe after women ; if in these dayes of liberty you restraine from neither , you doe in effect tempt to both , and are the grand seducers of the hopefull gentry : but alasse you are guilty of a more ambitious wickednesse , it is your study to seduce a king . i remember an old story of king canutus , who ( as the chronicler relates ) took off the crowne from his owne head , and set it upon the crucifixe at westminster : but tell me ( you that have read some italian jesuite more subtile then the politicians saint , saint machiavel ) doe you conceive that you can perswade our king to take off his crowne from his owne head , and place it upon your idoll the queene , or her idoll the crucifixe , at oxford ? we have none at westminster . well , plot on my masters , and walke in the light and warmth of that fire which you have kindled ; but heare what the prophet saith , behold all you that kindle a fire , and compasse about your selves with sparkes , walke in the light of your fire , and in the sparks which you have kindled ; this shall ye have of mine hand , ye shall lay downe in sorrow . pardon our just feare , if we dare not say a confederacy to all those welch atheists , irish rebels , bloudy papists of the french or spanish faction , to whom you say , a confederacy ; associate your selves together ( you know what followes ) take counsell together ( in your pretended parliament ) and it will be brought to nought , enact and pronounce a decree , imagine mischiefe as a law , yet you shall not prosper , for god is with us . i know you urge the 13 to the romanes , to justifie your royall cruelty ; but you know what chrysostome , and many others , have said upon that place : but i shall onely aske you one queshion ( with which i stopped your friend chillingworths mouth ) be pleased to answere it : doe you beleeve that tyrannie is gods ordinance ? i ever held it a violation of gods ordinance : and whether the supreme judicatory of the kingdome may not repell that force with force , which would violate gods ordinance , judge ye ; for it is absurd to talke , as doctor ferne doth , of a morall restraint in such a case . sure i am , the parliament hath power to raise an army to preserve gods ordinance inviolable , when it cannot be preserved by any other meanes : they doe certainly resist gods ordinance who seeke to violate it ; you endevour to violate it , we to preserve it ; who is in the fault ? i have examined your great champion doctor ferne his three bookes , and cannot finde any thing in them , whereby the conscience of an impartiall scholar may be fully resolved or satisfied . it is very impertinent , in my weake judgement , to talke of the priviledges of the kings of judah , who were immediately elected by god ; or to discourse of the power of the romane emperour , or the first draughts of government in the saxon and norman lines ; for doctor ferne doth acknowledge that it is not injurious to his majesties posterity , that the king sweares to a limited power , a power limited by priviledges and immunities , granted , or restored to the people since the conquest ; which priviledges grants , liberties , though not originall , yet are they irrevocable . doctor ferne distinguishes betweene the title of the king , and the power of the king ; but wee did never so much as once question his majesties title , whether it be limited or no ? it is confessed that his power , and therefore much more the exercise of his power , is limited by the priviledges of the parliament , the immunities of the subject , and the kings owne oath : nay , it is acknowledged that the two houses of parliament are in a sort co-ordinate with his majesty , to some act or exercising of the supreme power , by a fundamentall constitution truely here is , in my judgement , so much granted , that the rest need not be disputed . but what if these powers be divided , and clash one against the other ? why then the power is not fully in king or parliament , for the power which is in the three estates is suspended , whilest one part suspends : so doctor ferne . give me leave to aske him , and you , whether the power of the militia be not in the three estates , as well as the power of making lawes ? if it be not , then sure the power of making lawes is to no purpose , because they have no power to defend or enforce i aw : and if the power of the militia be in the three estates , then the kings power of levying , arming men , &c. is suspended by the severall ordinances of parliament ; for it is doctor fernes conclusion , that the power which is in the three estates is suspended whilest one part suspends ; ergo , much more if two estates suspend . but on the other side , i desire doctor ferne to shew how the kingdome is secured by the government of three estates , if the two houses of parliament have not sufficient power to preserve the king and the kingdome , in case the king refuse to preserve it or him . it is unreasonable ( saith doctor ferne ) that the supply should be made by the body onely , without the head : nay rather , doctor , it is unreasonable for the head to neglect the preservation of it selfe , and the body ; but it is very reasonable for to lift up both armes , to defend the head , and the whole body ; and therefore reasonable for both houses to take up armes , and lift up their armes , put forth their whole strength to defend the king and themselves . doctor ferne talkes of a fundamentall constitution , which hath provided this temper of three estates , as the reasonable meanes of our safety . but i must confesse , that it cannot enter into my dull pate to conceive , that our government is of any setled temper ; or that we have any reasonable meanes provided for the safety of this kingdome , by that fundamentall constitution , if the king may doe what he pleases , seize on our goods , ( 't is doctor fernes supposition ) imprison our persons , kill us outright , and ( which is worse ) overthrow our lawes , our ●iberties , our religion , and all at once , and by consequence enslave not onely the bodies , but the consciences of our posterity ; and there is no more power in both houses of parliament to protect us by force against force , then if we had no such remedy provided , as the government of three estates . are we not subjected to an absolute monarch , if the other two estates have no legall power to releeve our neglected or oppressed common-wealth ? how are we secured by the temper of three estates ? or how can it be called a temper ? or a temper of three estates ? if the first of the three may oppresse us , and the other two have no power to releeve us ? sure i am , that by this account there is but one estate that hath a true power , and therfore that estate must be an estate of absolute monarchy , which dr ferne himselfe seemes to abhorre ; and yet so vaine is that doctor , as to call the power of supply legally placed in both houses of parliament , a conceit , nay a vaine conceit ; his words are these ; the conceit of supply by the two houses in case the king refuse ( to preserve the kingdome ) is a vaine conceit : and if that be true , then i must conclude , that this provision of a temper of three estates is no temper , no provision , two of the estates are no estates ; or else this provision is in the phrase of doctor ferne , a lame provision , which argues the first contrivement of our ancestors very inconsiderate ; because then it followes , that there is no reasonable meane of safety provided for this kingdome by that fundamentall constitution which provided this temper of three estates , so the doctor loves to call it , though he make one estate so praedominant , that as there is no temperamentum ad pondus , so there will bee no temperamentum ad justitiam neither by his conceit . how say you sir john , are not you of my perswasion , or are you ashamed to tread in the steppes of your learned countrey-man ? the lord open your eyes , and cleare your eye-sight ; you are naturally sharp-sighted , but if your eye look red or yellow , you know your disease by the symptome . it sball be my prayer , that your eye may neither be dimme nor blood-shotten . consider that the blood of the 70 was laid upon abimelech their brother who slew them , and upon the men of shechem , which had ayded him by strengthning his hands to kill his brethren . whether you have strengthned their hands who slew their brethren , only for being too zealous in the maintenance of that religion which you professe , i appeale to god , your conscience , and the evidence of the fact . if you have dealt truly and sincerely with this * reforming parliament , nay with your owne party , rejoyce and flatter your selves with hope of a desired successe ; but if not , then take heed the curse of iotham doe not fall upon you : there may be an evill spirit sent between the irish and english , the french and spanish factions ; nay , fire may come out from the queen and consume the prelates , and fire from the prelates and consume the papists ; or else there may come a fire from the north , a fire to purge and refine , not to destroy ; which is my prayer , and will be your happinesse . i will not hold you any longer upon the racke : learne the first lesson of christianity , self-deniall ; deny your owne will , and submit your selves to gods ; deny your reason , and submit to faith : reason tells you that there are some things above reason , and you cannot be so unreasonable as to make reason judge of those things which are above reason : remember that master chillingworth ( your friend ) did runne mad with reason , and so lost his reason and religion both at once : hee thought he might trust his reason in the highest points ; his reason was to be iudge , whether or no there be a god ? whether that god wrote any booke ? whether the bookes usually received as canonicall be the bookes , the scriptures of god ? what is the sense of those books ? what religion is best ? what church purest ? come , doe not wrangle , but beleeve , and obey your god , and then i shall be encouraged to subscribe my selfe your friend and servant , francis cheynell . a briefe and plaine relation of mr chillingworths sicknesse , death , and buriall : together with a just censure of his works , by a discovery of his errours collected out of his book , and framed into a kinde of atheisticall catechisme , fit for racovia or cracovia : and may well serve for the instruction of the irish , welch , dutch , french , spanish army in england , and especially for the black regiment at oxford . i am very religious in observing that old proverbe , if it be taken in its right sense , nothing is to be spoken of the dead but good . if that be true which quintilian saith , adversus miseros ( i may better say adversus mortuos inhumanus est jocus ; that man is void of humanity who makes sport with the dead . mr chillingworth was looked upon by me at the first sight as a conquered man , and therefore i was not only civill , but ( as he confessed ) charitable unto him : and now he is dead , i cannot deale with him as a asinius pollio did with plancus , set forth an oration to which no answer is to be expected , unlesse according to the desire of saul or dives , a messenger should arise from the dead to give me an answer as full of terrour as satisfaction . it is no glory to triumph over one that is conquered , nay dead ; for that of the poet is true , nullum cum victis certamen * & aethere cassis . but i consider , that mr chillingworths party is alive , though he be dead ; and though one of his books is buried , there are many hundred copies divulged ; and therefore though i speak not of his humane frailties , or personall infirmities , and imperfections , which died with him ; yet i may speak of his hereticall book , and of some destructive policies he used , which doe yet survive in their sad and lamentable effects . iudge what i say , put the case a man commits notorious crimes scandalously , because publiquely , and doth not only hold , but vent damnable heresies ; and vent them not only in the pulpit , but in the presse ; shall not his damnable heresies and printed heresies be confuted after his death ? shall thousands be seduced and perish , and all orthodox divines silenced with that one proverb , nothing is to be spoken of the dead but good ? nay , put the case further yet , suppose a man hath had his head full of powder-plots , and his heart full of bloody desires , nay hath been a ring-leader and encourager of others to bloody practises against the very light of nature as well as scripture ; must nothing be said of such a man when he is gone , but good ? mr chillingworth and i met in sussex by an unexpected providence : i was driven from my owne house by force of armes , only ( as the cavaliers confessed ) because i was nominated to be a member of the assembly : and when i heard that my living was bestowed upon a doctor ( who if some cambridge-men deceive me not , became the stage farre better then he doth the pulpit ) i resolved to exercise my ministery in sussex amongst my friends , in a place where there hath been little of the power of religion either known or practised . about the latter end of november i travelled from london to chichester , according to my usuall custome , to observe the monthly fast ; and in my passage , with a thankfull heart i shall ever acknowledge it , i was guarded by a convoy of 16 souldiers , who faced about 200 of the enemies forces , and put them all to flight . upon the twelfth of december i visited a brave souldier of my acquaintance , captain james temple , who did that day defend the fort at bramber against a bold daring enemy , to the wonder of all the countrey : and i did not marvell at it , for he is a man that hath his head full of stratagems , his heart full of piety and valour , and his hand as full of successe as it is of dexterity : my gratefull pen might wel run on in his commendation , to the eternall shame of those who have been ungratefull to him , to whom they doe ( under god ) owe their preservation . but i intend not to defraud others of their deserved praise , who were present at that fierce encounter . there was present colonell harbert morley , a gentleman of a nimble apprehension & vigilant spirit ; but the cavaliers were kept at such a distance , that they never put the colonels regiment of horse to any trouble : there was present likewise captaine henry carleton , the antiprelaticall sonne of a learned prelate , a man of a bold presence and fixed resolution , who loves his country better then his life . captain simon everden was there also , a man of slow speech , but sure performance , who deserves that motto of the old romane , non tam facile loquor , quam quod locutus sum praesto . you cannot expect that i should name all the rest of the commanders : but there were ( you see ) some difficulties in my way , which seemed insuperable , and yet the lord of hosts did bring me thorow these difficulties safe from bramber to arundell , upon the 21 day of december , if i forget not . master chillingworth was at that time in arundell castle , which was surrendred to the much renowned commander sir william waller , serjeant-major-generall of all the associated counties in the east and west , upon the sixt of ianuary . as soone as the castle was surrendred , i represented master chillingworths condition to sir william waller , who commended him to the care of his worthy chaplaine ; and his chaplaine shewed so much charity and respect towards him , that he laid him upon his owne bed , and supplied him with all necessaries which the place did afford . when the rest of the prisoners were sent up to london , master chillingworth made it evident to me , that he was not able to endure so long a journey ; and if he had been put to it , he had certainly died by the way : i desired therefore that his journey might bee shortned , and upon my humble motion he was sent to chichester , where i intreated the governour that he might be secured by some officer of his acquaintance , and not put into the hands of the marshall ; the governour gave order that lievtenant golledge should take charge of him , and placed him in the bishop of chichesters palace , where he had very courteous usage , and all accommodations which were requisite for a sicke man , as appeares by the testimony of his owne man at oxford , and a letter of thankfull acknowledgment from master chillingworths father to lievtenant golledge : nay , by master chillingworths codicill , which hee desired should be annexed to his will , in which he gave 10 livre. to captaine king , 10 li . to mistresse mason , who keepes the bishops house , and attended master chillingworth in his sicknesse , and 10 li. to lievtenant golledge : and it may further appeare by a letter of captain kings sent to oxford , and the testimony of master edmonds , his apothecary ; both which are as followes . captain kings letter sent to mr walter iones , one of the chaplains of christ-church in oxford , ian. 23. kind friend , master chillingworth was in so weake a condition , by reason of a violent fluxe , that i perswade my selfe hee could not have lived the first night of his journey , had he gone farther ; for it was very tedious to him to be brought hither . he lyes very ill , and ( for ought i perceive ) in a desperate condition ; and how god may dispose of him we know not : if any of his friends have a purpose to come into these parts , they shall have free passage without any molestation . lievtenant golledge performes the part of a reall friend in every kinde ; neither is christobell wanting in her best care and diligence . lievtenant golledge hath already disburst 10 livre. or thereabout : it would not be amisse that some of master chillingworths friends were present with him , whilest there is some hope of life ; for it will be a great satisfaction both to him and others : there must be no delayes either of time or money . i heare that master chillingworths sister , whom hee hath made executrix , is travelling with childe , and therefore unfit for travell , but he is very confident she will not let him want for necessary supplies whilest he lives , and that hee may have decent buriall ( befitting one of his merit ) if it pleaseth god he chance to dye . among other of his friends , i pray acquaint doctor shelden , the warden of all-soules , with what is written , whom master chillingworth doth very highly esteem . your very affectionate friend , robert king . from chichester jan. 23. the testimony of master edmonds . a friend standing by him , desired him to declare himselfe in point of religion , for two reasons : first , because the iesuites had much defamed and traduced him in that particular : secondly , because he might be able to give an account to his friends , in case he should survive . he answered , he had declared himselfe already in that point sufficiently to the world . his friend told him , that there went abroad some hard opinions that he had of iesus christ , and wisht him to deale candidly and plainly to the world in that point . he answered , for those things he was setled and resolved , and therefore did not desire to be further troubled . being demanded , what course should be taken for his interment , in case god should take him away in this place ; he replied , that where ever god should please to take him , he would there be interred ; and ( if it might be obtained ) according to the custome of the church of england ; if not , the lords will be done . and further ( said hee ) because the world will be apt to surmise the worst of things , and there may be some inquiry made after my usage in this place , i must testifie and declare to all the world , that i have received both of master golledge and his wife , abundance of love , care , and tendernesse , where i deserved it not ; and that i have wanted nothing which might be desired of them : and i must in all conscience and honesty doe them this right , to testifie the truth to the world : or to that effect . anthony edmonds . and for my part , i beleeve that in the course of nature hee might have recovered , had he not neglected and distrusted an able doctor ( who freely offered himselfe ) onely because hee was physician to sir william waller ; sure i am that jealousie was more deadly then his disease . yet master chillingworth did , when it was too late , discover and confesse his errour , and we perswaded the doctor to visit him afterwards , and he was in an hopefull way of recovery : but then his spirit was much dejected , because his friends neglected , or delayed , to send him some good newes from oxford : his heart was so set upon his release , and his head was still working and projecting , how he might be exchanged , or ransomed ; and therefore certainly the newes of his friends active endevours for his release , was the onely cordiall which could possibly revive his spirits ; and for want of such a cordiall his heart was even dead within him before he died . i entreated him to plucke up his spirits , and not to yeeld to his disease ; but i perceived , that though reason be stout when it encounters with faith , yet reason is not so valiant when it is to encounter with affliction : and i cannot but observe , that many a parliament-souldier hath been more chearfull in a prison , then this discoursing engineer , and learned captive was in a palace : beleeve it , reader , beleeve it , that neither gifts , nor parts , nor profession , nor any thing else but faith , will sustaine the spirit of a man in spirituall straights and worldly encombrances , when without there are fightings , and within there are fears . another reason there was , which ( as i conceive ) was very destructive to this man of reason ; he was disrelished , and ( i beleeve ) abused by most of the great officers who were taken prisoners in arundell-castle ; they looked upon him as an intruder into their councells of warre , and ( as one of them whispered ) the queens intelligencer , who was set as a spie over them and all their proceedings . when major molins came to treat , hee spake very coldly for master chillingworth ; and a greater commander then he , told me , that they were bound to curse that little priest to the pit of hell , for he had been the ruine of them all : i replyed in his behalfe , that i wondered much that they should make so weake an apology , for i could not beleeve that master chillingworths single vote could turn their councell of warre round , and make them giddy : the ingenious gentleman made use of the liberty of his judgement , and replyed ; sir , master chillingworth hath so much credit at the court , and the court-councell hath so much influence into our military councell , that we were even over-awed , and durst not contradict master chillingworth , for feare lest our owne resolutions might succeed ill , and then his counsell would have been esteemed the better . i told the gentleman , that i thought master chillingworth wanted experience for the ordering of military affaires , and therefore could not well apply the generall rules of reason aright , and bring them downe to practise in cases which were difficult , because unusuall . the gentleman replyed , sir , master chillingworth is so confident of his great wit and parts , that hee conceives himselfe able to manage martiall affaires , in which hee hath no experience , by the strength of his owne wit and reason : sir ( quoth i ) you may forgive him , for though i hope to bee saved by faith , yet master chillingworth hopes that a man may be saved by reason , and therefore you may well give him leave to fight by reason . sir ( saith that witty gentleman ) i confesse it is a sad objection , which i know not how to answere ; and so in stead of an answere we went to dinner . but i did examine the businesse impartially afterwards , and perceive that these great commanders have grossely abused master chillingworth , in laying all the blame upon him , as if he were guilty of losing the out-workes , the towne , the castle , and all ; and therefore i shall doe master chillingworth so much right , as to offer some considerations , which may tend to his excuse or vindication : for what though master chillingworth were the grand-engineer at glocester and arundel , and both projects failed , the fault might be in the officers and souldiers , and not in the engineer : put the case the lord hopton , baron of stratton , field-marshall-generall of the west , promise to bring three thousand men , and the engineer make a line of communication which cannot be defended with fewer then two thousand ; but the field-marshall doth in the mean time forget himselfe , and quarter his men in three or foure maniples ; but his enemy being a more wary and prudent commander , keeps his men in a contracted and compact body , which is too strong for the best of his maniples , and falls upon one of the field-marshals quarters , takes and kills neare upon a thousand men , and the field-marshall by such an unexpected blow is utterly disabled for the fulfilling of his promise , of sending three thousand , nay is not able to send above 1500 men : shall the engineer or the field-marshall be blamed in such a case ? nay , what if the enemy advance before the engineer hath quite finished his workes ? yet if he hath made them defensible against any sudden onset , and the souldiers , which should defend the works , quit their trenches , and runne all away , before any one man be slaine in the trenches , shall the engineere be blamed in such a case , or the souldiers , who were stricken with feare when there was no considerable cause of feare ? finally , if the lord of hosts , who did strike a terrour to the very heart of the souldiers , doe shew himselfe a god of wisdome , and infatuate the counsels of the grand achitophels ; nay , shew himselfe a sin-revenging god , and smite the souldiers in the castle with deadly diseases , with one pox more then they carried in with them , with the flux , the calenture , the spotted . feaver , and the like : if in the midst of these distresses the souldiers breake forth into a mutinous flame , and set all their fellowes in a combustion , must the engineer bee blamed if the castle be surrendred in such a case ? now i appeale to their councell of warre , whether their case were not so like to these cases which have beene put , that it is hard to say wherein they differed . let not then master chillingworth be charged with more faults then he was guilty of ; i cannot but vindicate his reputation from all false aspersions , which are cast upon him by some who know not how to excuse themselves : i tooke all the care i could of his body whilest he was sicke , and will ( as farre as he was innocent ) take care of his fame and reputation now he is dead : nay , whilest he was alive , i tooke care of something more precious then his health or reputation , to wit , his precious and beloved soule ; for in compassion to his foule i dealt freely and plainly with him , and told him that he had been very active in fomenting these bloudy warres against the parliament and common-wealth of england , his naturall countrey , and by consequent , against the very light of nature : i acknowledge ( saith he ) that i have beene active in these warres , but i have ever followed the dictates of my conscience ; and if you convince me that i am in an errour , you shall not finde me obstinate . i told him , i conceived that he might want sleep , being at that time newly come out of the castle , and therefore i gave him time to refresh himselfe : and when i came to him againe , i asked him whether he was fit for discourse ; he told me , yes , but somewhat faintly : i certified him , that i did not desire to take him at the lowest , when his spirits were flatted and his reason disturbed , but had much rather undertake him when he was at the highest , because i came prepared to receive satisfaction , and looked upon my selfe as unlikely to give satisfaction to one , whom i acknowledged so much above mee , in regard of his parts , gifts , experience ; he having studied bookes and men , and more accurately discussed that question of state then ever i had done . he then told me , that he was pretty well refreshed , and as able ( as he used to be in these times of distraction ) for any discourse about that great controversie of state . he desired me to begin : i satisfied his desire , and told him that it would be very requisite in the first place to state the question aright ; for ( as i conceived ) many ingenious men were grossely mistaken even in the very state of the question . first then be pleased ( quoth i ) to consider , that the originall difference was not between the king and the parliament , but between the parliament and delinquents ; and indeed , betweene the queen and the parliament : i told him , that hee could not be ignorant that upon the fourth of january , two yeares agoe , the king went unto the parliament upon the queens errand ; and i beleeved that he knew better then i , how much the queen was discontented , because her bloody designe was not put in execution : he told me , that he could not deny it , and he would not excuse it . when i was going on to discourse about other matters of fact , he confessed very honestly , that he did now perceive , that they had no certaine information of matters of fact at oxford : whereby i perceived that it was no wonder that so many brave men were seduced to fight against the parliament . vpon further discourse , he told me that he observed a great deale of piety in the commanders and souldiers of the parliaments army : i confesse ( sath he ) their discourse and behaviour doth speake them christians , but i can finde little of god or godlinesse in our men ; they will not seeke god whilest they are in their bravery , nor trust him when they are in distresse ; i have much adoe ( saith he ) to bring them upon their knees , to call upon god , or to resigne themselves up to god , when they goe on upon any desperate service , or are cast into any perplexed condition . i liked him well , when i heard him run on so fluently to this effect , and i closed with him , and desired him to tell me freely , whether in good earnest he thought the parliament did intend any thing else then the taking of the wicked from before the king , the establishing of the kings throne in justice , the setting up of christs ordinances in power , purity , liberty , and the setling of the knowne lawes of the land , the priviledges of the parliament , and liberties of the subjects , in quiet and peace . sir ( saith he ) i must acknowledge that i doe verily beleeve that the intentions of the parliament are better then the intentions of the court , or of that army which i have followed ; but i conceive that the parliament takes a wrong course to prosecute and accomplish their good intentions ; for warre is not the way of iesus christ . truely i was ashamed to dispute with him any longer , when he had given me so much advantage : for first , he clearly condemned himselfe for being confederate with them , whose intentions were destructive ; because no man must promote an ill designe by any meanes whatsoever , be they never so lawfull . secondly , he confessed himselfe cleane out of his way when he was in armes ; for warre , saith he , ( and he learnt to say so of the anabaptists and socinians ) is not the way of iesus christ ; all that he could say for himselfe was , that he had no command in the army ; and yet their greatest officers told me , that in a true construction there was no man else that had a command to any purpose , but master chillingworth . and as touching their intentions , it is no hard matter to guesse at the intentions of the french and spanish faction at court , or the irish intentions of the papists , prelates , delinquents , &c. that follow the queens army . i am sure one of the captains that was taken prisoner at arundell , had a spanish head , a french nose , and an irish heart : and there was a letter found in arundell-castle , which was directed to master beckingham , the earle of arundels receiver , which doth declare the good intentions of the queens army . i took a copy of it , which i will here transcribe word for word . good mr beckingham , i doubt not but you are acquainted with the generall and voluntary contribution of the whole catholikes of this kingdome , both to declare the true affection of their hearts towards his majesty , in this , as in all other occasions : as also to exhibite such aid as their estates doe afford , to assist his majesty in this present businesse , which doth concerne each one in particular . the monies which the catholikes are to give , must be presented this terme , and therefore i entreat you that you will be pleased that what your liberality will bestow in so good a cause , you will cause it to be delivered to me in london , and i shall give ( an account thereof to such as it doth concern , and ) you a sufficient discharge . the subscription and name was torne away . i need not make any observations upon this letter , it speakes for it selfe ; and it speaks so bad english , and such perfect policy , that i beleeve the man that writ it was no englishman borne . there was a commission found there likewise ( which doth declare their good intentions ) directed to sir edward ford , &c. to secure the persons of all men in sussex , who had contributed to the parliament , and to seize their estates , and sell their goods to the utmost value , for the best advantage of his majesty ; and the commissioners were to give an account of their service to the field-marshall generall , baron of stratten , commander in chiefe of all his majesties forces in surrey , sussex , kent , &c. now their intentions are as you see : and as touching the meanes used , master chillingworth himself would not say that the queen and her adherents , prelates , papists , delinquents , malignants , of the french conspiracy , the spanish faction , or the irish rebellion , and their confederates , doe take better courses , and use more lawfull meanes to accomplish their intentions , and bring about their designes , then the parliament of england , the kingdome of scotland , and the protestants in ireland : since then master chillingworth did ( as all ingenuous and active spirits doe ) detest neutrality , hee might have seene ( for hee had light enough to see ) the way of jesus christ . i desired him to tell me , whether the highest court of justice in the kingdome may not compell delinquents ( who are protected by force against law ) to come in by force of armes , that they may be tryed according to law ? first , hee acknowledged that the parliament is the highest court ; and therefore ( i conclude ) not to be controlled by some few of the kings councell , or by a pretended assembly , consisting of fugitives and delinquents . secondly , saith he , i must deale plainly with you , though the parliament hath voted some to be delinquents , and the queen her selfe to be a traitour , yet i doe not beleeve that their judgement is infallible . i was able to answere him out of his owne booke , that the judgment of a court or person ( especially where there is evidence of the fact ) may be certaine , though that court or person be not infallible : secondly , though the judgment of the highest court be not infallible , yet it is finall , and therefore we cannot appeale from the judgement of the parliament , to any court , but the court of heaven . true , ( saith master chillingworth ) but this is it which stickes with me , that there is no fundamentall constitution for the government of this kingdome by a standing parliament : to which i had many answers to returne ; first , there is a fundamentall constitution for the government of this kingdome by the three estates : secondly , there is a law for the frequency of parliaments : and thirdly , the vertue and strength of every parliament continues in the acts of every parliament , by which the kingdome is governed , even after the dissolution of that parliament ; every parliament doth live in its unrepealed acts , and therefore lives even after its dissolution ; and in that respect wee have many parliaments yet standing ; some old elisabeth-parliaments doe as yet live , breath , move , and operate , with strength and vigour : fourthly , there is an act passed for the continuance of this parliament , by the unanimous consent of all three estates ; and the kings councell could not find any other probable meanes under heaven for the dis-engaging of his majesty , then the framing and passing of that act of continuance . master chillingworth ( putting off his hat ) cryed , i acknowledge that act with all reverence , and there is your strength . he seemed pretty well satisfied with that answere ; and as touching the way of jesus christ , i desired to know whether the saints were not to make warre against the whore and the beast ? whether it be not an act of charity , for protestants to lay downe their lives for their brethren ? whether it be not an act of faith , to waxe valiant in fight for the defence of that faith , which was once delivered to the saints ? i perceived my gentleman somewhat puzled , and i tooke my leave , that he might take his rest . my heart was moved with compassion towards him , and i gave him many visits after this first visit ; but i seldome found him in fit case to discourse , because his disease grew stronger and stronger , and he weaker and weaker : i des●red to know his opinion concerning that liturgy which hath beene formerly so much extolled , and even idolized amongst the people ; but all the answer that i could get was to this purpose , that there were some truths which the ministers of the gospel are not bound upon paine of damnation to publish to the people : and indeed he conceived it very unfit to publish any thing concerning the common-prayer-book , or the book of ordination &c. for feare of scandall . i was sorry to heare such an answer drop from a dying man and i conceived it could not but be much more scandalous , to seduce or hoodwink the people , then to instruct and edifie them in a point which did directly concerne the publike worship of god in this land . when i found him pretty hearty one day , i desired him to tell me , whether he conceived that a man living and dying a turk , papist , or socinian , could be saved ? all the answer that i could gaine from him was , that he did not absolve them , and would not condemne them . i was much displeased with the answer upon divers reasons : first , because the question was put home , of a man living and dying , so or so . secondly , it was frivolous to talk of absolution , for it was out of question that he could not absolve them . thirdly , it shewed that he was too well perswaded of turcism and socinianism , which runne exactly parallel in too many points . fourthly , he seems to anathematize the socinians in the preface to the author of charity , maintained sect. 28. when knot had reckoned up some socinian tenets , mr chillingworth answers , whosoever teaches or holds them , let him be anathema . i have not knots book by me now , i meane his direction to n. n. and mr chillingworth was so wise as not to reckon up the number of those impious doctrins , or name them in particular , because they were all fathered upon him , and he would not assist mr knot so farre in the spreading of his owne undeserved defamation , ibid. sect. 28. i am afraid that knot reckoned up too many points of socinianism , or did not forme his interrogations aright , and then mr chillingworth might safely anathematize , and yet be a socinian in many points which were not reckoned up , or not well expressed ; and yet his anathema is warily pronounced , he doth not say , whosoever teaches or holds them or any of them , let him be anathema . moreover , if the socinians be asked , whether christ be god , they will say , yes ; but then they meane that he is the sonne of god , borne after an extraordinary manner by the overshadowing of the holy ghost , luke 1. 31 , 32 , 35. or that the word of god came unto him , and therefore is called god , because of his extraordinary commission from god , or the like , iohn 10. 35. now either mr chillingworth was guilty of some such equivocation and fly evasion , or else he grew worse and worse , and would not anathematize a grosse socinian . and if in these latter dayes seducers grow worse and worse , i shall not wonder at it , 2 tim. 3. 13. when mr chillingworth saw himselfe entangled in disputes , he desired me that i would deale charitably with him , for , saith he , i was ever a charitable man : my answer was somewhat tart , and therefore the more charitable , considering his condition , and the counsell of the apostle , titus 1. 13. rebuke them sharply , or ( as beza hath it ) precisely , that they may be sound in the faith ; and i desire not to conceale my tartnesse , it was to this effect : sir , it is confessed that you have beene very excessive in your charity ; you have lavished out so much charity upon turks , socinians , papists , that i am afraid you have very little to spare for a truly reformed protestant ; sure i am , the zealous protestants finde very little charity at oxford . the last time i visited him , was on the lords day , for i thought it a sabbath-duty , and then he began to speak of some questions which i formerly propounded to him , whereof this was one ; whether tyranny was gods ordinance ? i presently took him off from that discourse , because i knew he had beene laid up fast by that argument before ; for it is impossible that any man should ever prove , that tyranny is not to be resisted upon this ground , because we must not resist gods ordinance , unlesse they could prove , that which is blasphemy to mention , viz. that tyranny is gods ordinance . i desired him that he would now take off his thoughts from all matters of speculation , and fix upon some practicall point which might make for his edification . he thanked me ( as i hope ) very heartily , and told me that in all points of religion he was setled , and had fully expressed himselfe for the satisfaction of others in his book , which was approved and licensed by very learned and judicious divines . upon further discourse i began to tell him what meditation did most comfort me in times of extremity : and i added that the meditation was very proper for a man in his condition , if he could lay hold upon the covenant of grace . i made choise of that scripture , 2 sam. 23. the five first verses ; and i began to open the fifth verse a little to him : i told him that all our hopes of salvation are grounded upon the covenant of grace , for it is a sure covenant , an ordered covenant , nay , a covenant in all things ordered and sure , an everlasting covenant , a saving covenant ; they were davids last words , this is all my salvation . and i presse this point the rather , because he doth acknowledge in his book , that the doctrine about the covenant is a fundamentall doctrine ; and because his expressions are very imperfect and obscure in his subtle book , i was in good hope that he would have explained himselfe more fully and clearly in that fundamentall point ; but i could not obtaine what i desired . not long after i told him , that i did use to pray for him in private , and asked him whether it was his desire that i should pray for him in publique : he answered , yes , with all his heart ; and he said withall , that he hoped he should fare the better for my prayers . i observed that mr chillingworth was much troubled with a sore throat , and oppressed with tough phlegme , which would certainly choak him up ▪ if there were not some sudden remedy . i sent therefore to a chirurgeon , one of mr chillingworths beliefe , an able man , that pleased him well , and gave him some ease . and the next day being munday , at our morning-exercise in the cathedrall , i desired the souldiers and citizens that they would in their prayers remember the distressed estate of mr chillingworth a sick prisoner in the city , a man very eminent for the strength of his parts , the excellency of his gifts , and the depth of his learning : i told them that they were commanded to love their enemies , and therefore were bound to pray for them , especially when god moved the heart of an enemy to desire their prayers : we prayed heartily that god would be pleased to bestow saving graces as well as excellent gifts upon him , that so all his gifts might be improved and sanctified : we desired that god would give him new light , and new eyes , that he might see , acknowledge , and recant his errours , that he might deny his carnall reason , and submit to faith : that god would blesse all meanes which were used for his recovery , &c. i beleeve none of his friends or my enemies can deny that we made a respectfull and christian mention of him in our prayers . the same day i rid to arundel to move the doctor to come over againe to visit mr chillingworth , but the doctour was sent for out of town ( before i got thither ) to visit sir william springot , and so i lost my journey , and the doctour saw him no more . in my absence a religious officer of chichester garrison followed my suit to mr chillingworth , and entreated him to declare himselfe in point of religion ; but mr chillingworth appealed to his book againe , and said he was setled , as you may see it more largely set down in mr edmonds his testimony before . from my first visitation of mr chillingworth to the last , i did not finde him in a condition which might any way move mee ( had i beene his deadly enemy ) either to flatter or envy him , but rather to pity and pray for him , as you see i did . i dare appeale to his eminent and learned friends , whether there could bee more mercy shewn to his body , or charity to his soule , whilst he was alive ? consider what it is worth to have a fortnights space to repent in . o what would dives have proffered for such a mercy ? if mr chillingworth did not emprove it , that was not fault of mine ; and shall not my charity to his soule and body whilest he was alive , acquit me from being uncharitable towards him after his death ? no reasonable man will deeme mee guilty of such an uncharitable madnesse as to be angry with a carcasse , or to goe wrestle with a ghost ; for i consider that his ghost might cry in faciem sepeli , bury me with my face downward , if you please , for when the macedonians ( give me leave to change the story a little , and say ▪ when the irish ) come , and they were then neare us , they will turn all upside down : i am no sylla , i did not give any command to scatter the reliques of marius : though i have not much wisedome , yet i have more charity then to deserve that lash of the oratour , he had beene more wise had he beene lesse violent ; and yet i will confesse that i am , and ought to be violent for christ and heaven , and my passions are too often as hot as my zeale , but they may beare with small faults , and in this businesse i have proceeded with deliberation and moderation : i consider that i am in the body , and my body may be delivered ( i know not how soone ) into the enemies hand ; i doe not expect ( though i might desire ) that halfe that mercy which i shewed to master chillingworth may be shewen to me ; defunctorum cineribus violentiam inferre sacrilega praesumptio est , is a rule ( if i mistake not ) in the civill law ; and i shall be able to justifie my carriage in the businesse of his funerall to the face of his greatest patrons , from all inhumanity or sacriledge , sacrilegae bustis abstinuere manus . let us ( if you please ) take a view of all our proceedings , and of master chillingworths opinions , and then ( i am afraid ) some will say there was a little foolish pity shewed on my part and the uncharitablenesse will be found in them onely , who censure me for want of charity . first , there were all things which may any way appertaine to the civility of a funerall , though there was nothing which belongs to the superstition of a funerall : his body was decently laid in a convenient coff●n , covered with a mourning hersecloth , more seemly ( as i conceive ) then the usuall covering , patched up out of the mouldy reliques of some moth-eaten copes : his friends were entertained ( according to their owne desire ) with wine and cakes ; though that is , in my conceit , a turning of the house of mourning into an house of banqueting : all that offered themselves to carry his corps out of pure devotion , because they were men of his perswasion , had every one of them ( according to the custome of the countrey ) a branch of rosemary , amourning ribband , and a paire of gloves . but ( as it doth become an impartiall historian ) i confesse there were three severall opinions concerning his buriall . the first opinion was negative and peremptory , that hee ought not to be buried like a christian , 1. who refused to make a full and free confession of christian religion : 2. nay , if there had been nothing else against him , but his taking up of armes against his countrey , that they conceived a sufficient reason to deny the buriall of his corps . i will not trouble you with many reasons , that one place of scripture was to them in stead of many reasons , to prove that an heathen might be buried in all the outward pompe and glory that can be devised , rather then one who hath destroyed his owne land , and slaine his own people , isa. 14. 18 , 19 , 20. all the kings of the nations , even all of them lye in glory , every one in his owne house ; but thou art cast out of thy grave , like an abominable branch , and as the raiment of those that are slaine , thrust thorow with a sword , that go downe to the stones of the pit , as a carcasse trodden under feet : thou shalt not be joyned with them in buriall , because thou hast destroyed thy land , and slaine thy people , ( marke that reason : ) the seed of evill doers shall never bee renowned . in the third place , some were bold to say that he was felo de se , guilty of his owne death , by his foole-hardinesse . finally , it was alledged that he was an heretick , no member of any of the reformed churches , and therefore to be reckoned as an excommunicated person ; now you know what law it is which denieth buriall to heretikes , and excommunicated persons , though they be excommunicated for inconformity onely , for not appearing , or not paying of 3. s. 4. d. or some such like cause ; read pickerings case in the high commission . the truth is , we looked upon master chillingworth as a kinde of non-conformist , nay ( to speake strictly ) a recusant rather then a non-conformist ; for non-conformists refuse to subscribe to canons which concerne discipline , but master chillingworth refused to subscribe some articles of religion , as he himselfe acknowledges though he thought charitably of them who did subscribe them : for ( he saith ) he doth not undertake the peculiar defence of the church of england , but the common cause of protestants ; and yet he doth not hold the doctrine of all protestants true , because they hold contradictions , yet he conceived them free from all errour destructive of salvation : and though he did make scruple of subscribing the truth of one or two propositions , yet he thought himselfe fit enough to maintaine , that those who doe subscribe them are in a saveable condition , see the preface to the author of charity maintained sect. 39. you see master chillingworth did refuse to subscribe . what thinke ye ( gentlemen are not chichester men pretty good disputants ? can you confute these reasons ? if you can ; doe your best ; if you cannot , i have no reason to prompt you ; scratch your heads , beat your deskes , bite your nailes , and i will goe sleep , and will not heare what they said of master chillingworths argument on fieldings case . the second opinion was your opinion , and the opinion of such as you are , my good friends at athens ; the men of a cathedrall spirit thought it fit that master chillingworth , being a member of a cathedrall , should be buried in the cathedrall ; and being cancellarius , it was conceived that he should be buried intra cancellos , and rot under the altar , neare the pot of incense , that the constant perfume of the incense might excuse the thrift of his executrix — ossa inodora dedit . it was answered , that he was of or belonging to the cathedrall at sarum , and therefore they might carry him thither ; but then his will could not be performed , because he desired to be buried at chichester , in case he did end his dayes in that city . but some more serious conceived , that this desire of burying him intra cancellos was but the issue of a superstitious conceit , that the chancell , or sanctum sanctorum , was more holy then other places ; and the carcasse of a priest as sacred as that holy ground : and it was their opinion that a modest and well-grounded deniall of this request , would be the most effectuall confutation of that superstitious conceit . the ground of the deniall was master chillingworths phantasie , viz. that there are two wayes to make men faithfull , ( and consequently to bring them to heaven ) without either necessity of scripture or church ; his words are these ; and saint paul tells us , that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} might be knowne by his workes , and that they had the law written in their hearts : either of these wayes might make some faithfull men , without either necessity of scripture or church , cap. 2. sect. 124. pag. 100. the first edition : now shew me any place of scripture ( say they ) to prove that such a mans corps should be buried in the church , who maintaines that men may be saved without church or scripture . this passage is the more observable , because in some places of his booke he would beare us in hand , that he doth not thinke that heathens shall be immediately saved without faith in christ ; see chap 3. sect. 13. pag. 133. but you see he doth not mince the matter in the place fore-cited , for it is cleare and evident that there is nothing of the gospel written in the heart by nature , or in any of the workes of god by the first creation . the third opinion ( which prevailed ) was this , that it would be fittest to permit the men of his owne perswasion , out of meere humanity , to bury their dead out of our sight ; and to bury him in the cloysters , amongst the old shavelings , monkes , and priests , of whom he had so good an opinion all his life . the prelaticall men doe conceive , that there is a kinde of holinesse in a cloyster ; no excommunicated person must be buried there , unlesse there be an absolution sent , either before the death of the party , or to the dead corps , ( which they must call their beloved brother ) because they themselves are as lothsome and rotten as the corps : nay , a papist must not be buried in the cloysters without speciall dispensation from the bishop ; and you know the prelates would dispense with papists alive or dead . it is usuall to bury men of good rank and quality in collegiate cloysters ; and sure i am , the cavaliers doe not bury their dead so honourably , though they esteeme them the queenes martyrs , they throw them into ditches or rivers . finally , mr chillingworths bones shall rest without any disturbance , he shall not be used as wicliffe was by papists , or as bucer was served by the prelaticall faction at cambridge , who vouchsafed him an honourable buriall in the dayes of edward the sixth , anno 1551. because they knew it would be an acceptable service in the eyes of saint edward , as judicious hooker styles him ; but in the dayes of queen mary ( the first of that name ) the same men plucked him out of his grave againe after an inhumane and barbarous manner : but in queen elizabeths dayes , the same men wheeled about a third time , and made an honourable commemoration of him againe in panegyricall orations , and flattering verses . mr chillingworth was buried by day , and therefore we had no torches or candles at his grave . tertullian assures me , that the christians used no such custome , though the heathens did , and the antichristians now doe . non frangimus lucernis , lucem dei . i know no reason why candles were used by heathens at the funerall of the dead , but because they did burne the dead bodies . — subjectam more parentum aversae tenuêre facem — observe that i say , at the funerall , for i know full well that they had some anniversary commemorations , at which it was usuall to bring candles , and burne them at sepulchers in honour of the dead . i remember a famous instance in suetonius in the life of augustus , there is mention made of a great company who flocked together at the tomb-stone of one masgabas , who had beene dead about a yeare , and they brought abundance of lights thither , as their custome was . but it is strongly objected that my great and unanswerable fault was , that i did in extremo actu deficere , i refused to bury him my selfe , and left it to others : sirs , i confesse it , and shall deale freely and candidly in the businesse . first , mr chillingworth in his life time , desired to have some part of the common-prayer-book read over his corps at the grave in case it should please god to take him away into another world by that sicknesse . now i could not yeeld to this request of his for many reasons which i need not specifie ; yet i shall say enough to give satisfaction to reasonable and modest men . i conceive it absurd and sinfull to use the same forme of words at the buriall of all manner of persons ; namely , to insinuate that they are all elected , that they doe all rest in christ , that we have sure and certaine hope of their salvation , &c. these and the like passages i durst not make use of upon that occasion ; and all this , and a great deale more , was desired by mr chillingworth : blame me not if i did choose rather to satisfie my owne conscience , then his desire ; for what learned doctor vsher saith of more ancient formes of praise and prayer , is true of these passages ; which kinde of intercessions , &c. proved an occasion of confirming men in divers errours , especially when they began once to be applied not only to the good but to evill livers also , unto whom by the first institution they never were intended . dr vsher his answer to the jesuites challenge , pag. 192. edit. london 1625. secondly , i doe not know to what end and purpose wee should pray over the dead , unlesse we conceive it fitting to pray for the dead . i doe consider upon what slight occasions the people have heretofore runne into intolerable errours ; and there is a kinde of naturall superstition ingraffed in the minde of ingenuous men in this great businesse : men are apt to slide out of their civility and blinde devotion , into detestable superstition . they who began to complement with the dead at first , did little dream that their complements should be urged as arguments to prove that we may make prayers to the dead : and yet they who have searched farthest into the originall of that rotten superstition , and grosse idolatry , doe as clearly demonstrate my observation to be solid and rationall , as if it were a truth written with a sun-beame : take doctor fields observation upon this argument ; notwithstanding ( saith he ) it is most certaine that many particular men extended the meaning of these prayers further &c. — and so it is true ( saith doctor field ) that calvin saith , that many of the fathers were led into errour in this matter of prayer for the dead , &c. see his third booke of the church , and the 17 chapter . they conceived that the saints continue their love to their brethren which they left behind them , that therefore they recommend to god those particular necessities of their brethren , which were made knowne to them here : nay , they did entreat saints , lying on their death-beds , not to forget their friends on earth when they were translated to heaven . adde to this , their reckoning up the names of martyrs at the eucharist ; the sacrifice of praise ; the anniversary commemorations , and panegyricall orations , on the severall dayes of their friends death , and i need say no more : read the same author ( doctor field ) in the same book , the 20 chapter , and you will be satisfied . when i read of funeralls in the old testament , celebrated in the presence of idolaters mingled with the faithfull servants of god , is there any probability that there were any prayers made over the dead corps ? would the idolaters have joined with the faithfull in any spirituall exercise of religion presented to the true god ? the heathens had strange conceits , that by prayers and sacrifices persephone might be appeased , and so the deceased party fare much the better for the sacrifices , or the prayers ; ( shadowed by the sacrifices ) for with them the devill was worshipped , and so ( as they thought ) appeased : read doctor reynolds in the first tome of his prelections on the apocrypha , pag. 1498. itaque persephone & sacrificiis & precibus placabatur ab vlysse , odyssea 11. apollonius apud philostratum lib. 4. cap. 5. qui negat sibi opus fuisse , obtulit tamen preces & orationes ; atque ita , aut sacrificiis , aut orationibus , quas sacrificia adumbrabant , placabatur sathanas , colebatur & adorabatur . now if prayers were made over the dead by heathenish idolaters , and are still made by romish idolaters ; and the reformed churches have no such custome ; i humbly conceive that i shall not be condemned by any sober christian , for not imitating heathens or papists . be pleased to observe the practise of reformed churches , and then you will not deeme me singular in my opinion . there was a liturgy printed not long since , and presented to the parliament , ( let it not be thought the worse because it came from geneva , or because it is said to be approved by mr. calvin , and the church of scotland ) and in that liturgy you shall find that there was no great store of service said or done at the interring of the dead corps : the corps is reverently brought to the grave , without any further ceremonies ; which being buried , the minister , if he be present and required , ( observe those two limitations ) goeth to the church , if it be not farre off , ( marke that likewise ) and maketh some comfortable exhortation to the people , touching death and resurrection . you see that in their judgement the corps may be reverently interred without a minister ; yet if he be present , there are no prayers appointed to be said over the dead body ; but the minister is to repaire to the church , and preach to the congregation , as i did upon the advantage of the like occasion . the practise of the church of scotland is set forth by that reverend and learned commissioner of scotland , master rutherford , professour of divinity at saint andrewes , cap. 20. art . 9. p. 319. in these words : interring and buriall is not performed in the word of god with preaching , reading service over the dead , singing scniptures ( as papists ) which tend to superstition , &c. — the place of buriall with us is not under the altar , or the place of assembling ( the church ) for the word or sacraments , as papists do , but in some publike place , either near the church , or some inclosed field ; because the jewes buried sometimes in a cave , gen. 25. 9. sometimes in a valley , deut. 34. 6. somtimes in a garden , joh. 19. 41. i hope you wil not say at oxford that there 's no christian buriall to be had in scotland , because they doe not interre the corps in the church , or read service over the dead . but however you 'll say it must be acknowledged that singing of hymnes , and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} were used of old amongst funerall offices . to which i answere , that the learned doctor vsher proves out of the author of the ecclesiasticall hierarchy , that such a rite could not be observed in its pomp and glory unlesse there had been some bishop present , at whose sacred hands the dead body might receive as it were a sacred coronation . 2. the singing of psalmes , and these thanksgiving prayers , are not signes of mourning , but rejoicing : and how it would have been interpreted at oxford ( you may judge ) had we shewne the least signe of rejoicing at the fall of such a subtile enemy . 3. in those hymnes and psalmes they did expresse their confidence , that the deceased party was crowned in glory ; and of that i have said enough above , to shew that i had no such confidence . but if any of master chillingworths catholike friends at oxford should speake out , and tell me that there may ( as augustine saith ) be petitions and propitiations , made for men that are not very bad , after their death ; i will ingenuously confesse that augustines judgment was very unsetled in this point , and diverse of his expressions are inexcusable : but to answere them according to their folly , if they conceive that master chillingworth was a martyr for the catholike cause , they will likewise acknowledge ( as augustine in sundry places doth ) that to frame petitions for a martyr after his death , is an injury to the martyr , and to the cause for which he suffered . if any man doe yet remaine unsatisfied , let him consider , that had i conceived it fitting to read some service over a dead corps , yet it could not be expected in reason and equity that i should performe this last office to the body of master chillingworth : for it is well knowne , that long before these unnaturall and bloudy warres , in the times of greatest compliance , i never gave mr chillingworth the right hand of fellowship , but did freely and constantly protest against those damnable heresies , which he did cunningly subintroduce & vent in this kingdom , not onely whilest he was a professed papist , but since his pretended conversion , ( give me leave to call it so ) you will see there is good ground for that diminishing term , when you come to read the catechism anon . i am not ashamed to tell the whole vniversity , the whole kingdome , that i never looked upon master chillingworth as my brother , in a religious respect , for we were not men of the same religion , or communion : to speak plaine we were not members of the same church , for ( as he saith truely in his subtile booke ) they who differ in fundamentall points are not members of the same church one with another , any more then protestants are members of the same church with papists . chap. 3. sect. 9. pag. 131. finally , it was favour enough to permit master chillingworths disciples or followers , the men of his perswasion , to perform this last office to their friend and master . now there was free liberty granted to all the malignants in the city to attend the herse , and interre his corps . sure i am , that if mr chillingworth had beene as orthodoxe and zealous a preacher as john the baptist was , he might have had as honourable a buriall as john the baptist had ; for all the honour that john had , was to be buried by his owne disciples , matth. 14. 12. if the doctrine of this eminent scholar was hereticall , and his disciples were malignants , i am not guilty of that difference . as devout stephen was carried to his buriall by devout men , so is it just and equall that malignants should carry malignants to their grave . by malignants i meane such kinde of men who joyne with the enemy , or are willing upon any occasion offered to joyne with him , to promote the antichristian designe now on foot ; those , and onely those , i call malignants . when the malignants brought his herse to the buriall , i met them at the grave with master chillingworths booke in my hand ; at the buriall of which booke i conceived it fit to make this little speech following . a speech made at the funerall of mr chillingworths mortall booke . brethren , it was the earnest desire of that eminent scholar , whose body lyes here before you , that his corps might be interred according to the rites and customs approved in the english liturgy , and in most places of this kingdom heretofore received : but his second request ( in case that were denied him ) was , that he might be buried in this city , after such a manner as might be obtained , in these times of unhappy difference and bloudy warres . his first request is denied for many reasons , of which you cannot be ignorant . it is too well knowne that he was once a professed papist , and a grand seducer ; he perverted divers persons of consider●●●●●anke and quality ; and i have good cause to beleeve that his ●…e to england , commonly called his conversion , was but a false and pretended conversion : and for my owne part , i am fully convinced that he did not live or dye a genuine sonne of the church of england ; i retaine the usuall phrase , that you may know what i meane ; i meane , he was not of that faith or religion , which is established by law in england . hee hath left that phantasie , which he called his religion , upon record in this subtile booke : he was not ashamed to print and publish this destructive tenet , that there is no necessity of church or scripture to make men faithfull men , in the 100 page of this unhappy booke , and therefore i refuse to bury him my selfe ; yet let his friends and followers , who have attended his herse to this golgotha , know , that they are permitted , out of meere humanity , to bury their dead out of our sight . if they please to undertake the buriall of his corps , i shall undertake to bury his errours , which are published in this so much admired , yet unworthy booke ; and happy would it be for this kingdome , if this booke and all its fellowes could be so buried , that they might never rise more , unlesse it were for a confutation ; and happy would it have been for the author , if he had repented of those errours , that they might never rise for his condemnation ; happy , thrice happy will he be , if his workes doe not follow him , if they doe never rise with him , nor against him . get thee gone then , thou cursed booke , which hast seduced so many precious soules ; get thee gone , thou corrupt rotten booke , earth to earth , and dust to dust ; get thee gone into the place of rottennesse , that thou maist rot with thy author , and see corruption . so much for the buriall of his errours . touching the buriall of his corps , i need say no more then this , it will be most proper for the men of his perswasion to commit the body of their deceased friend , brother , master , to the dust , and it will be most proper for me to hearken to that counsell of my saviour , luk. 9. 60. let the dead bury their dead , but go thou and preach the kingdom of god . and so i went from the grave to the pulpit , and preached on that text to the congregation . some conceive that i studied on purpose , to picke out the most piercing text in the bible ; a text which doth much reflect upon the party deceased : but these men erre , not knowing the scriptures ; for had i used that prayer at master chillingworths grave ( which was dictated by the spirit upon the like occasion , the fall of a great enemy of israel , judges 5. 31. ) doubtlesse that prayer would have reflected more upon the party deceased , and all his surviving party : so let all thine enemies perish , o lord , but let them that love thee be as the sunne when he goes forth in his strength . they would have beene more displeased , had i taken that text , which is applyed to no lesse a man then the sonne of iosiah , by the prophet ieremiah : they shall not lament for him saying , ah my brother , or , ah sister ▪ — ah lord , or ah his glory : he shall be buried with the buriall of an asse , drawne and cast forth beyond the gates of ierusalem , ierem. 22. 18 , 19. doubtlesse that man deserves the buriall of an asse , who beleeves his owne reason more then the god of truth ; he that dares not condemne , nay , admires those for rationall men , who would reason christ and the holy ghost out of their godhead , and even dispute them both out of the trinity , doth certainly deserve the buriall of an asse . man is born like a wild asses colt , as silly , wild , and coltish as the colt of a wilde asse ; and if he prove an old colt , and perish by his coltish trickes , wonder not at the sharpe censure of the holy ghost . you see then there are sharper texts then this that i pitched upon for the ground of my discourse . secondly , all that understand that text , luke 9. 60. will acknowledge , that the text did reflect rather upon the living , then the dead . but why then was he buried at all ? i have told you already , his followers were permitted to bury him out of meere humanity . i pleaded for his buriall from that great example recorded at length by the holy ghost , 2 sam. 1. from the eleventh verse to the end of the chapter . saul you know was forsaken of god long before his death ; the spirit of the lord , ( the excellent gifts and common graces of the spirit in particular ) the spirit of government departed from him : moreover , he consulted a witch , and by her the devill at endor , and an evill spirit from the lord took possession of him ; yet saul was solemnly buried , bewailed , nay extolled by david for those things which were lovely in him , as you may read in the place forecited , 17 , 21 , 24. verses . and i dare boldly say , that i have beene more sorrowfull for mr chillingworth , and mercifull to him , then his friends at oxford : his sicknesse and obstinacy cost me many a prayer , and many a teare . i did heartily bewaile the losse of such strong parts , and eminent gifts ; the losse of so much learning and diligence . never did i observe more acutenesse and eloquence so exactly tempered in the same person : diabolus ab illo ornari cupiebat ; for he had eloquence enough to set a faire varnish upon the foulest designe . he was master of his learning , he had all his arguments in procinctu , and all his notions in numerato . howle ye firre trees , for a cedar is fallen : lament ye sophisters , for the master of sentences ( shall i say ) or fallacies is vanished : wring your hands , and beat your breasts , yee antichristian engineers , for your arch-engineer is dead , and all his engines buried with him . ye daughters of oxford weep over chillingworth , for he had a considerable and hopefull project how to clothe you and himselfe in scarlet , and other delights . i am distressed for thee , my brother chillingworth , ( may his executrix say ) very pleasant hast thou beene unto me , thy love to me was wonderfull , passing the love of father , husband , brother . o how are the mighty fallen , and the weapons , nay engines of warre perished ! o tell it not in gath , that he who raised a battery against the popes chaire , that he might place reason in the chaire in stead of antichrist , is dead and gone : publish it not in the streets of askelon , that he who did at once batter rome , and undermine england , the reforming church of england , that he might prevent a reformation , is dead ; lest if you publish it , you puzzle all the conclave , and put them to consider , whether they should mourne or triumph . if any man enquire , whether he hath a tombe-stone , as well as an elegy , let him know that we plundered an old friar of his tombe-stone , and there is roome enough for an epitaph if they please to send one from oxford ; if not , give us leave to say , we have provided a sepulchre , and it is your fault if you doe not provide a monument : for as laurentius valla the master of elegances observes , a monument is nothing else but a speaking sepulchre : vixque monumentum dixerim , nisi literae aut alii tituli appareant , quae si desint , magis sepulchrum quàm monumentum erit . laur. vall. elegant . lib. 4. cap. 75. if there be any man yet unsatisfied , that this great philosopher , mathematician , oratour ( and any thing but what he pretended to be , a divine ) hath had no more honour at his death , then a plaine tombe-stone , and such a song of lamentation as was taken up for saul , let him read this following catechisme ; and if he be either papist , or protestant , he will be satisfied , if he be true to his owne principles . a prophane catechisme , collected out of mr chillingworths works . question . how shall i be able to prove to an atheist , that there is a god , and that the books of the old and new testament are the word of god ? answ. when protestants affirme against papists , that scripture is a perfect rule of faith ; their meaning is not , that by scripture all things absolutely may be proved , which are to be beléeved ; for it can never bée proved by scripture to a gain sayer , that there is a god , or that the book called scripture is the word of god — for ( as he saith a little before ) nothing is proved true by being said or written in a book , but only by tradition , which is a thing credible of it selfe , chap. 1. p. 55. sect. 8. the first edition approved at oxford . doubtlesse the atheists and papists will give him hearty thanks for this answer , which doth preferre tradition ( which the atheist vilifies ) before scripture , which the papists vilifie : he hath pleased them both . the papists will bee well pleased to see this doctrine licensed by the protestants of the university of oxford , that tradition is more credible then scripture , for tradition is credible for it selfe ; but the scripture , when it is to be proved a perfect rule to us , is credible only by tradition in mr chillingworths conceit , pag. 96. and where shall we meet with this universall tradition ? 2. but i finde another answer , pag. 53. tradition may be helped out by naturall reason . controversies , wherein the scripture it selfe is the subject of the question , cannot be determined , saith mr chillingworth , but by naturall reason , the only principle , beside scripture , which is common to christians , cap. 2. sect. 3. and in his marginall observations on a passage of mr hookers he layes downe this as a rule ; naturall reason then built on principles common to all men , is the last resolution , pag. 65. nay , reason is in some sort gods word , see his answer to the preface , pag. 21. how then ( will the atheist say ) is reason credible for it selfe , since ( mr chillingworth saith ) that gods word is not credible for it selfe ? surely these answers will never bring a man to divine faith ; for to rely upon tradition , is but to rely upon humane testimony ; and such as the testimony is , such is the faith : if the testimony , which is the ground of faith , be humane , then the faith cannot be divine . againe , naturall reason is not infallible , nor is it able to judge of truths which are above reason : now it is cleare , that supernaturall truths are above naturall reason . finally , faith is not grounded upon reason , but upon authority . he gives a third answer , chap. 1. pag. 36. god hath confirmed the doctrine of the scripture by miracles ; but then he saith , we have nothing to assure us of the truth of those miracles , but tradition ; and therefore we are not got one steppe nearer faith or heaven by that shift : and if he flie back to reason , then consider what he saith , pag. 117. god hath no where commanded men to beleeve all that reason induceth them to beleeve . qu. but if this great point must be tried by reason , what reason can you produce , to prove the scripture to be the word of god ? an. there is as good reason for it , as there is to beléeve other stories or matters of tradition : he requires men to yeeld just such a kinde or degree of assent to the gospel of christ , as they yeeld to other stories or matters of tradition , chap. 1. pag. 37. for god desires us only to beleeve the conclusion as much as the premises deserve , ib. sect. 8. p. 36. and the chronicle of england , joyned with the generall tradition of our acquaintance , deserves as much credit in mr chillingworths conceit , as the gospel of christ ; for his words are these , chap. 2. sect. 159. p. 116. 117. wee have , i beleeve , as great reason to beleeve there was such a man as henry the eighth king of england , as the jesus christ suffered under pontius pilate . the lord rebuke that spirit of errour , which moved the great men of oxford to license this blasphemy ! what have i no more reason to beleeve the three persons in the holy trinity , speaking in their glorious gospel to my heart and conscience , then i have to beleeve stowes chronicle ▪ or the generall tradition of my owne acquaintance , or some such other fallible testimony ? qu. but what if i cannot be assured , that any part of the scripture is the word of god , may i be saved without beleeving this weighty point ? an. yes , saith mr. chillingworth , chap. 2. sect. 159. if a man should beléeve christian religion wholly and entirely , and live according to it , such a man though he should not know , or not beléeve the scripture to be a rule of faith , no nor to be the word of god ; my opinion is he may be saved . excellent divinity indeed ! what , is not this a principle of christianity , that scripture is the word of god , and rule of faith ? and if it be , how then is it possible for a man to beleeve the christian religion wholly and entirely , and yet not beleeve this principle ? yes , i may beléeve the scripture as i doe augustins works , pag. 114. qu. but if i am assured that some scripture is the word of god , how shall i know what books are canonicall , and what not ? an. by universall tradition . i must receive those books for canonicall , of whose authority there was never any doubt or question in the church , pag. 148. i may then , it seems , doubt of the epistle of james , the second of peter , the second and third epistles of john , the epistle to the hebrewes , the epistle of jude , the book of the revelation , the books of job , esther , ecclesiastes , &c. he saith , he cannot in reason so undoubtedly beleeve those books to be canonicall , which have beene questioned , as those which were never questioned . at least i have no warrant to damne any man — that shall deny them now , having the example of saints in heaven , either to justifie or excuse such — their deniall , chap. 2. sect. 38. pag. 67. surely here is a pretty tempting excuse for , if not a justification of those libertines who question these books , and may upon mr chillingworths principles question all the rest , if they acknowledge one of the gospels , that containes as much as all the rest ; ergo that is sufficient , pag. 93. 101. but if they beleeve no booke to be canonicall , and therefore will not assent to any book of scripture , they doe not commit a sinne of derogation from gods perfect and pure veracity ; for he onely gives god the lye , who denies some book or point which he himselfe knowes or beleeves to be revealed by god , chap. 3. sect. 15 , 16 , 17. now it is impossible that a man should know one thing to be true , and beleeve the contrary ; or know it and not beleeve it , sect. 18. whither these and the like principles ( which frequently occurre in his writings ) tend , let the most sober and charitable men judge . the only fundamentall errour in mr chillingworths judgement , is to deny something which the party himselfe knowes or beleeves to be revealed by god : and therefore in his judgement none but downe-right atheists erre fundamentally , cap. 2. p. 135. 136. atheisme then , as the jesuites and arminians conceive , is the formality of an heretick , p. 100. for it is down-right atheisme for any man to deny that to be true , which he acknowledges to be spoken by the god of truth . qu. but if i doe beleeve the scripture to be gods word , is it necessary to beleeve that controversies are to be decided by that word ? an. no , saith mr chillingworth , this is no fundamentall point ; his words are full . i say that this position ( scripture alone is the rule whereby they which beleeve it to bee gods word , are to judge all controversies in faith ) is no fundamentall point , chap. 2. pag. 115. his intent is by this assertion to make good a dreame of his , that some controversies in faith need not be judged or determined at all . mr chillingworth pretends , that he holds the scripture to be a perfect rule of faith , and yet he saith it is not necessary to judge all controversies ( and those no small ones , because they are controversies ) in faith by that perfect rule . it is a perfect rule , but we need not be ruled by it in all points of faith . qu. but is there then any other way to decide controversies which hath any colour of probability from the scripture ? an. yes : nine or ten severall meanes of agreement offered themselves to mr chillingworth upon the sudden , ( and haply more might have beene thought on if he had had time ) and these that are offered , have as much probability from scripture , as that which papists obtrude upon us . and truly he was such a ready blasphemer , that he could vent extemporary blasphemies ; yet such as the licentious men at oxford approved chap. 3. pag. 130. 131. first he saith , we could , if we would , try it by lots , whose doctrine is true , and whose false ; for which he cites prov. 16. 33. it may be , this sophister did cast lots for his religion , and it was his hard lot to draw popery first , then arminianisme , and then his doctrine run lower and lower , till it came almost to the very dregs of socinianisme . secondly , we could referre it to the king , prov 16. 10. and 21. 1. mr chillingworth might make merry with his owne prophane doctrine , but i admire that he should dare to sport himselfe with the majesty of scripture , and the majesty of the king : but truly i am afraid , that some are so indifferent in point of religion , that they are content not only to referre it to the king , but to the queene . it were proper for them to vent such doctrine , who have , as the old tradition and proverbe hath it , taken an oath to be of the kings religion . thirdly , to an assembly of christians assembled in the name of christ , math. 18. 20. let them not then blame the parliament for consulting an assembly of learned and pious christians , and most of them ministers of the gospel , assembled in the name of christ . fourthly , to any priest , malach. 2. 7. this makes well of the queens side . fifthly , to any preacher of the gospel , pastour , or doctour , math. 28. 20. sure mr chillingworth was more independent then they that are commonly so called . sixthly , to any bishop or prelate ( why not then to the bishop of rome ? ) for it is written , obey your prelates , heb. 13. 17. mr chillingworth since his pretended conversion was very apt to be seduced by the vulgar ( or rhemish ) translation , or some version received at saint omers ; but this was a voluntary and devised meanes , as he saith in the same page . seventhly , to any particular church of christians , seeing it is a particular church , which is called the house of god , a pillar and ground of truth , 1 tim. 3. 15. and seeing of any particular church it is written , he that heareth not the church , let him be unto thee an heathen , matth. 18. mr chillingworth is sometimes prelaticall , and sometimes congregationall . eighthly , we might referre it to any man that prayes for gods spirit ; for it is written , every one that asketh , receives , ( this is one steppe beyond the brownists ) matth. 7. 8. james 1. 5. lastly , we might referre it to the jewes , for without all doubt of them it is written , my spirit that is in thee , &c. isaiah 59. 21. and why not to the socinians ? they have naturall reason , a very competent judge in mr chillingworths conceit . what wonder is it that so many blasphemies and quibbles for every quibble upon scripture is a blasphemy ) should be licensed by grave and learned professours of divinity ? what if papists take liberty to blaspheme and put the scripture upon the rack to force it to confesse what makes for their turn ; must protestants or such a one who undertakes the common cause of protestants ( though he was no protestant ) bee permitted to blaspheme by the licence of an university ? repent deare doctors , once more repent ; and i will proceed . qu. but how shall i know the true sense of scripture , there being such variety of conceits which passe for interpretations ? answ . here help mee reason again and implicit faith . for , the last resolution of my faith in his conceit must be into reason , page 65. 96. and still he labours to prove that reason is judge ; and he frequently jeares at knot for accounting it an absurdity for every man and woman to rely upon their reason in the interpreting of scripture p. 98. reasons drawn out of the circumstances of the text cannot convince me , unlesse i judge of them by my reason ; and for every man or woman to rely on that — in the interpreting of scripture , you say is an horrible absurdity . and p. 99. reason will shew this to be the meaning : yes , if we may use our reason , and rely upon it . protestants use their reason , but socinians rely upon their reason . and he teaches implicit faith all along his book : protestants , saith he , do agree with an implicit faith in that sense of the whole scripture which god intended , whatsoever it was , p 129. 130 cap. 5. sect. 3. a ready way to tempt men to beleeve very little concerning the sense of scripture : for , men will be apt to say , that the sense of this and the other place of scripture is not plainly and fully revealed , and mr chillingworth doth not require any thing to be beleeved with an explicit faith which is not plainly and undoubtedly delivered in scripture . my reason ( saith he ) is convincing and demonstrative , because nothing is necessary to be beleeved , but what is plainly revealed , p. 92. but nothing in his judgement is plainly revealed about any point which is called in question , if there be a seeming conflict of scripture with scripture , reason with reason , authority with authority ; in such a case he cannot well understand how it can be truly sayd , that god hath manifestly revealed the truth on either side , chap. 3. sect. 9. p. 136. 137. well , but admit that the appearances on my side are answerable , and grant that scripture , reason , authority , are all against me , because on the other side ; yet consider the strange power of education and prejudices instilled by it , and what passions i am subject to , and then my errour is unavoydable , and therfore excusable ; for though the truth is in it selfe revealed plainly enough , yet to such a one as i am , prepossest with contrary opinions , the truth in that point is not plainly revealed , read page 137. sure the corruption of our nature is as unavoydable as prejudices and passions , and therefore he must ( according to his principles ) conclude that god who knowes whereof we are made , will not enter into judgement with us for those things which ( all things considered ) were unavoydable ; they are his own words page 137. nay , besides education , prejudices , and passions , inadvertence may in the fourth place excuse us if we dis-beleeve a plain revelation . finally , in the fift place , multitude of buisinesse , distractions , hinderances , will excuse us , and hinder god from imputing our errours to us as sinnes . in his answer to the preface p 19. i am verily perswaded that god will not impute errours to them as sinnes , who use such a measure of industry in finding truth , as humane prudence and ordinary discretion ( their abilities and opportunities , their distractions and hinderances , and all other things considered ) ( he will be sure to give liberty enough ) shall advise them unto in a matter of such consequence . but certainly humane prudence and ordinary discretion will teach men to plead these excuses , which he hath framed for them , when any point of faith shall be pressed upon them ; they will say , our opportunities are few , our distractions and hinderances many , our education meane , our abilities weake , our prejudices strong , our passions violent , our inadvertence pardonable , and therefore we will content our selves with a modest humble implicite faith ; we beleeve the whole scripture to be true , in that sense which god intended , whatsoever it was , but we have not time to search or ability to judge what it was : if we beleeve nothing explicitely , or to disbeleeve a clear revelation , that revelation , though cleare in it selfe , is not cleare to us , our errour ( the corruption of our nature , our prejudices , contrary opinions , with which we are already prepossest , and all other things considered ) is unavoidable , and therefore god will never impute it to us as a sinne . whither these principles tend , let the pretended parliament at oxford judge . qu. but are we not bound to heare what the church will say to us for our direction in weighty points ? ans. i must beléeve the church in every thing she proves , either by scripture , reason , or universall tradition , be it , fundamentall , or bée it not fundamentall , pag 149. these disjunctives seem to imply that something fundamentall may be proved by reason , or universall tradition , which cannot be proved by scripture . the licencers may do well to declare what that fundamentall point is , or how many there are , if there be more then one : i may go to heathens , i need not go to the church for any thing which reason teaches , the philosophers can sufficiently instruct me ; and if what the church teaches be finally resolved into my owne reason , as he affirmes p. 96. then i do not beléeve either god or the church , but my own reason : by you ( saith master chillingworth to knot ) as well as by protestants , all is finally resolved into your owne reason , sect. 115. cap. 2. sure i am then that such protestants and jesuites are in their high-way to pure socinianisme , and therefore it is no marvell if some jesuites have been such anti-trinitarians as master chillingworth pleads in his owne defence . preface and answer to the directions to n. n. sect. 16 , 17 , 18 , &c. the church hath lost the interpretation of obscure places , pag. 56 and plaine places need no exposition at all . qu. but what if the church erre ? ans. then a man may learne of that self same church ( which taught him ) to confute the errours of that church : that is , i may learne to confute the erroneous conclusions of that church , by those very rules and principles which that church teaches , chap 3. sect. 40. p. 150. first then , a private man is presumed to have more logicke then that teaching church . secondly , the prelates ( who call themselves the church ) may give my brethren of the assembly leave to confute their erroneous conclusions , by some rules and principles which they themselves have delivered . thirdly , a man may learne of the church how to teach the church . principles which lead to these harsh truths , being licenced at oxford , are an argument to me that they approved this booke before they read it . qu. but how shall we doe then to finde out the true church , and the true religion ? ans. for commands to séek the church i have not yet met with any ; and i beleeve ( saith he to knot ) you ( if you were to shew them ) would be your self to seek . cap. 3. sect. 41. p. 150. and for religion , how little paines or care we are to take about it , hath been already shewed . q. but which must a man chuse first , his religion , or his church ? ans. every man is to iudge for himself with the iudgment of discretion , ( which he calls humane prudence , and ordinary discretion , in the place of his answer to the preface fore-cited , p. 19. ) and to chase either his religion first , & then his church , as master chillingworth saith ; or as knot , his church first , and then his religion , pag. 57. every man then is judge , the scripture ( for fashions sake ) he calls the rule , but he makes every mans naturall reason the rule , to judge whether such a text be the word of god , and then what is the sense of that text ; and so all is still finally resolved into our owne reason , into humane prudence , and ordinary discretion ; for tradition is a principle , not in christianity , but in reason ; nor proper to christians , but common to all men , p. 72. cap. 2. sect. 51. come away then to the schoole of socrates , for this is just , sit anima mea cum philosophis . read from the 9● to the 100 page . i will advise with god and that reason he hath given me , page 158. he adored god and reason . qu. but is it not possible for men to become faithfull without either church or scripture ? ans. yes , by the works of god without us , and the law of god written in us by nature . either of these wayes might make some faithfull men without either necessity of scripture or church . ch. 2. sect. 124. p. 100 qu. what is faith ? ans. it is the assent of our vnderstandings . qu. are not the essentiall doctrines of christianity to bee embraced with our will ? an. the assent of our understandings is required to them , but no obedience from our wills , chap. 4. sect. 2. p. 193. qu. what are these essentiall doctrines of christianity ? ans. i do not know . qu. do you not know what ye are to beleeve ? or , cannot the church tell what these necessary truths called the essentiall and fundamentall parts of christianity are ? answ . no , there 's no such church that mr. chillingworth was ever acquainted with . we are not to learn of the church what is fundamentall . cap. 3. sect. 39 qu. what doth mr chillingworth think fundamentall ? ans. all points which are intrinsecall to the covenant betwéen god and man . page . 193. cap. 4. sect. 3. qu. what are these points ? ans. repentance from dead works , and faith in christ iesus the forme of god , ( oh that he would have confessed him to be god ) and saviour of the world : this is all that is simply necessary , pag. 159. qu. what is it to beleeve in christ ? answ . it is to expect remission of sinnes , and salvation from him upon the performance of the conditions he requires , p. 134. observe more conditions beside faith required to iustification 2. no mention made of christs performance , but ours . 3. no mention of free grace : it runs like a covenant of works . qu. what are these conditions ? answ. one is , that we beléeve what god hath revealed , when it is sufficiently declared to have béene revealed by him . you have had the english of that already , read pag. 134. qu. is it simply necessary to salvation to beleeve in christ ? ans. it is simply necessary for them to whom faith in christ is sufficiently propounded , as necessary to salvation , p. 134. he will wrangle with you if you say faith in christ is sufficiently propounded to iewes , turks , heathens : for observe that he presently addes in the selfe same page , that may be sufficiently declared to one ( all things considered ) which ( all things considered ) to another is not sufficiently declared , and consequently that may be fundamentall and necessary to one , which to another is not so . in his conceit then it is not necessary for some mens salvation , that they should beleeve in christ . and it hath beene formerly observed , that some men ( as he conceived ▪ ) might be made faithfull men without necessity of church or scripture . finally , in the 133 page he saith expresly , that cornelius was but a meete gentile , one that beleeved not in christ , and knew not but men might be worshipped ; and yet we are assured , that his prayers and almes , even whilst he was in that estate , were accepted . ergo in his judgement a meere heathen and an idolater may have accesse to god in prayer , and be accepted without the mediation of our only mediator the lord iesus , god blessed for ever . but the truth is , cornelius was a proselyte , instructed in the iewish religion , who beleeved in the messiah , and that faith was sufficient for his acceptance , before the gospel of christ was preached unto him . the prayers and almes of idolatrous heathens ( who know not but they may worship men ) cannot be accepted without faith in christ : nor do their prayers and almes please god so well , as that for them or by them they should be promoted to a higher degree of knowledge , the knowledge of christ , that so they may be saved by christ : for what is this , but to deserve a saviour , which is meritum de congruo at least ? nay , let the licensers consider , whether to deserve christ , be not more then to deserve heaven . moreover , he is much mistaken , when he saith , that they who never heard of christ , may seek god as to please him , and that they shall be rewarded for their seeking of him with the knowledge of the gospell ▪ or saith in christ ; for he who doth not seek god in and by christ our only mediatour , doth not come to god , but runs quite beside him : to such a carnall seeking ▪ god never yet promised such a spirituall reward . consider that of the apostle rom. 9. 30 , 31 , 32 , 33. and the next chapter , the second and third verses . that text hebr. 11. 6. should be compared with , and expounded by iohn 14. 6. and then it will be evident that no man can seek so as to finde him , or come to him after an acceptable manner , unlesse he seek god in , and come to him by iesus christ , who is the way , the truth , and the life , the true way to eternall life . i hasten to the next question . qu. what other condition is there of the covenant besides beleeving ? answ. repentance of sinne , and obedience to christ ; for god is a punisher of them that obstinately offend him ; therefore repentance of sinne is necessary , and iesus christ is the sonne of god and saviour of the world , by obedience to whom men must look to be saved , p. 101. mark , he doth not say , by whose obedience men must be justified , and yet this is the fairest confession that i can meet with : i read often of our obedience to christ , but i never read any thing yet in mr chillingworths book , of christs obedience imputed to us ; now it is the imputation of christs obedience to us , and gods free pardon of our disobedience , which make the covenant appeare to be a covenant of grace . qu. what is repentance ? answ . an universall sorrow for all those sinnes which we know we have committed , and which we feare we may have committed . answer to the preface p. 20. if we have beene betrayed into , or kept in errour by any sin of our will , if that errour be discovered , there must be a particular and explicite repentance of that errour ; if it be not discovered , then a generall and implicite repentance for all sinnes knowne and unknown doth suffice , ib. p. 21. observe that he saith nothing of the hatred of sinne , or the forsaking of sinne , in which the life and power of repentance doth consist . a man may live and die in his sinnes and be saved by an universall sorrow . men are damned , saith he , who die in wilfull errours without repentance ; but what if they die in thir errours with repentance ? answer to the preface p. 20. that is a contradiction , saith the iesuit , and he saith true ; but it appeares by that speech , that master chillingworth conceived that an universall sorrow for sinne without any hatred of , or turning from sinne , was saving repentance . qu. what other condition is required in the covenant between god and man in christ ? answ . sincere obedience . answer to the preface , p. 18. this indeed is the prime condition he meanes , when he saith , p. 134. that to beleeve in christ , is to expect remission of sinnes from christ upon the conditions he requires . this is pure socinianisme , to beleeve that we shall be pardoned upon our obedience , or as the socinians expresse it , and justified ( according to the covenant ) by our owne obedience ; not as we say , by the obedience of christ , and freely pardoned for the al sufficient satisfaction of christ , made in our stead , and put upon our account . besides , if a man neglect never so many duties , live in never-so many errors , and commit never so many grosse sinnes , he conceives that an implicite faith and a generall repentance of all sinnes knowne and unknowne , are sufficient antidotes , and his obedience shall passe for sincere obedience ; as you may clearly see in those places which have beene already alleadged . if a man be not convinced that christ is god , ( by his principles ) an implicit faith and generall repentance will serve the turne , though that truth hath beene sufficiently propounded to him , and it is meerly his own fault that he is not convinced , for in his conceit as long as this man remains ( as he saith ) unconvinced ( but as we say , obstinate ) so long he doth not derogate any thing from gods veracity or truth . his words are these . but if the proposall be only so sufficient , not , that the party ( to whom it is made ) is convinced , but only that he should , & but for his own fault would have beene convinced of the divine verity of the doctrine proposed . the crime then is not so great , for the beliefe of gods veracity may well consist with such an errour . yet a fault i confesse it is , and without repentance , damnable , if all circumstances considered ( that is , mens passions , hindrances , &c. considered as above said ) the proposall be sufficient , p. 18. of his answer to the preface . now what he meanes by repentance hath beene shewen , a generall sorrow for all sinnes knowne and unknowne ; such a repentance as will consist with a mans obstinate deniall of a truth , for he may die in this errour with master chillingworths repentance , and neither the errour nor the obstinancie shall be imputed to him , because he is sorry for he knowes not what , and remained unconvinced of his errour , though it was meerly his owne fault that he was not convinced . this is a ready way to save iewes , turkes , socinians , papists infidels , and all ; for he doth meerly retaine the names of faith , repentance , sincere obedience , without the substance , life , and power of them . the faith he talkes of , leaves the will at liberty : he starts at the apostles phrase , the obedience of faith . you ( saith he to knot ) say there is some merit in faith , we some obedience in it , which can hardly have place where there is no possibility of disobedience , as there is not , where the understanding doth all , and the will nothing , p. 329. sure i am , the devill hath such a saith , an assent without obedience ; his faith is no faith , because grounded meerly upon probabilities ; he only saith that the precepts of christianity are most likely to come from god , p. 36. chap. 1. but the spirit of god being implored by devout and humble prayer , and sincere obedience , may and will by degrees advance his servants to an higher certainty , p. 36. 37. but this certainty is a reward given to beleevers ; so then men are beleevers before the spirit gives them any certainty that the christian religion did proceed from the fountaine of goodnesse : now he who only beleeves the christian religion of all other religions to be most likely to be true , is not very likely to implore the spirit very earnestly either by prayer or obedience ; for who will obey the precepts of christianity till he be assured that they and the promises are divine ? but saith master chillingworth , men may talke their pleasure of an absolute and most infallible certainty , but did they generally beleeve that obedience to christ were the only way ( marke that , the onely way ) to present , and eternall felicity , but as firmly and undoubtedly as that there is such a city as constantinople , nay but as much as caesars commentaries , or the history of salust ; i beleeve the lives of most men , both papists and protestants would be better then they are , chap. 6. pag. 327. sure christs obedience for us is the way to happinesse , therefore our obedience is not the only way . 2. it is certaine that all true protestants do beleeve the gospel more firmly then ( caesars commentaries or salust ) prophane histories . 3. such a faith as this will not implore the spirit by devout and humble prayer , or by sincere obedience . 4. i appeale to all indifferent men what kind of obedience is like to spring from an implicite faith in unsanctified reason ; a faith that is a bare assent without obedience , the faith of devils , not the faith of christians . 5. the repentance of obstinate men , ( i meane in sensu composito , as master chillingworth means ) a generall sorrow which he cals repentance ( that is , humiliation without reformation ) repentance of sinnes which i love and live in and damnable errours which i die in , is not that repentance from dead works which christ requires ; sure heresie in the language of the apostle is a work of the flesh , and therefore as dead a work as any other ; we may then safely conclude ( that an implicite faith in unsanctified reason or fallible tradition , and a generall sorrow for i know not what sinnes and errors ( though grosse enough for to be known ) such sinnes and errours as the party doth love , live , and die in , and never so much as confesse to be sinnes or errours , because he is so obstinate that he will not be convinced of them ) i say , safely conclude , that this faith and this sorrow are both unchristian , if not antichristian . he that hath an implicite faith in his owne unsanctified reason makes himselfe a pope . sanctified reason sees but in part , and therefore unsanctified reason is spiritually blind , it cannot see any thing which is spiritually discerned . besides , i feare that he conceived there was some merit of congruity in the lame obedience of this blind beleever , because he saith the sincere obedience of such a beleever doth implore the spirit . now whether a man that relies upon his owne reason , and his owne obedience , in stead of relying upon gods authority and christs obedience , can be saved by the covenant of grace , let all true christians judge . qu. what other condition is required of us ? answ. a true , sincere and cordiall love of god . answer to the preface , p. 20. qu. how may a man be raised to this love ? answ. by the consideration of gods most infinite goodnesse to us , and our own almost infinite wickednesse against him , gods spirit cooperating with us , may raise us to a true , sincere and a cordiall love of god . in the same page . qu. wherein doth this infinite goodnesse of god manifest it selfe ? answ. 1. in creating us of nothing . 2. in creating us after his own image . 3. in creating all things for our use and benefit . 4. in streaming downe his favours on us every moment of our lives . 5. in designing us , if we serve him , to infinite and eternall happinesse . 6. in redéeming us with the pretious bloud of his beloved sonne . 7. by his patience towards us in expecting our conversion . 8. in wooing , alluring , leading , and by all meanes ( which his wisdome can suggest unto him , and mans nature is capable of ) drawing them to repentance and salvation . i have picked out the marrow of his notions the best divinity his works afford , but observe . 1. we are ( saith he ) designed to eternall happinesse if we serve god ; which is perfect popery , shall i say , or socinianisme ? here is a conditionall decree , and the condition is works . 2. god expects our conversion , i thought he had effected our conversion ; if god stay till we will turne off our selves or cooperate with his spirit in the first act of our conversion , we shall never be converted . sure i am , this implicite faith grounded on unsanctified reason , and fallible tradition , will rather resist , then cooperate with ▪ the holy spirit . the scripture tels us that we do never love god in good earnest till we doe beleeve gods love to us : compare the 16. and 19. verses of the 1 iohn 4. and faith is not wrought in us by our cooperation with the spirit but by the almighty power of god who quickens us whom he finds dead in trespasses and sinnes unto a lively faith ; as is evident in the two first chapters of the epistle to the ephesians . qu is it possible for a man that lives and dies a papist to be saved ? ans. yes very possible in the iudgement of master chillingworth . 1 , because the papists do not erre in fundamentals chap. 3. sect. 56. pag. 164. for the only and main reason ( saith he ) why we beleeve you not to erre in fundamentals is your holding the doctrine of faith in christ and repentance . the worst sort of papists who have means to find the truth , but will not use them , may be saved if they die with a generall repentance for all their sinnes knowne and unknowne , because the truths which they hold of faith in christ , and repentance are as it were an antidote against their errours , and their negligence in seeking the truth . especially , seeing by confession of both sides we agree in much more then is simply and indispensably necessary to salvation , chap. 3. sect. 12. pag. 133. and truly i doe beleeve if the worst of papists , and the worst of protestants did agree in fewer things then they doe , there would be more hope of the salvation of papists . qu. what is the best way to bring papists and protestants into one communion ? ans. the framing and proposing of a liturgy which both sides hold lawfull . p. 132. this was perchance the great stratagem aimed at in the framing of that liturgy which was sent into scotland ; and this is a point which deserves the consideration of the pretended parliament or assembly at oxford . qu. is the spirit absolutely promised to the succession of bishops ? answ . no : for many of them have beene notoriously and confessedly wicked men , men of the world : whereas this spirit is the spirit of truth , whom the world cannot receive , because he seeth him not , neither knowes him , p. 146 , 147. whether this be not as true of some popish prelats in england , as of the bishops of rome , let the learned determine . qu. what if a church maintaine an errour contrary to gods revelation knowne by that church to be a divine revelation ? ans. the church that doth so is no longer a church . p. 137. qu. doth not master chillingworth sometimes contradict himselfe , and call the roman church the catholique church . answ. he seemes to do so , p. 132. his words are these ▪ we beléeve the catholique church cannot perish , yet that she may , and did erre in points not fundamentall ; and that protestan● were obliged to forsake these errors of her church , as they did , though not the church for the errours , for that they did not , but continued still members of the church . observe that the question is about forsaking the church of rome , and he talkes of the catholique church . 1. the catholique church did not erre with the roman ; the greek church did forsake the errours of the roman . 2. those protestants who did protest against the church of rome , were a considerable part of the catholique church . 3. those protestants did not continue members of the roman church but did renounce her communion , because of her errours . 4. his distinction which followes betweene the catholique and roman church makes his former observations non-sence at least . 5. he saith they separated from the roman church only in things which they conceived superstitious or impious — and ( he saith ) they were obliged to doe this under paine of damnation . not ( saith he ) as if it were damnable to hold an errour not damnable , p. 132. did those protestants rightly conceive the practises of rome to be superstitious and impious , or did they not ? if they did conceive aright , then superstion and impiety are in master chillingworths judgement not damnable ; if they did conceive amisse , why doth master chillingworth justifie our separation from the church of rome ? sure master chillingworth was no fit man to maintaine the common cause of protestants against papists . qu. may not a man bee damned by maintaining errours which are not in themselves damnable ? ans. yes , because it is damnable outwardly to professe and maintaine , and ioyne with others in the practise of that which inwardly we do not hold : for this is ( as he confesses ) damnable dissimulation and hypocrisie , p. 132. men may do well to take notice , that mr chillingworth doth account something damnable ; and i note this the rather at this time , because men are so apt to professe one thing in one place , and another thing in another in these dayes of liberty , and to joyne with others in the practise of that which they inwardly dislike . yet mr chillingworth saith , that if in him alone there should have met a confluence of all the errours which all the protestants in the world have fell into out of humane frailty , he would not be so much afraid of them all , as to ask pardon for them , because to ask pardon for them , were to imply , that god is angry for them , answ . to the preface p. 19. qu. may a man goe constantly to masse , and be saved ? ans. yes , if he bée devout at it ( for that he meanes by a godly lay-man ) if he bée strongly perswaded that there is no impiety or superstition in the use of the latine service , answ . to the preface p. 9. sect. 7. it seems there is no fault in the masse , but that it is in latine . qu. what profit might be gained by the masse-book if it were in english ? ans. much devotion , instruction , edification , salvation , in the place forecited . was not this a stout champion , chosen by canterbury on purpose , not to confute , but harden papists , and seduce protestants . qu. what are the causes of errour ? ans. negligence in séeking truth , unwillingnesse to find it , pride , obstinacy , a politique desire that that religion should be true , which sutes best with my ends , feare of mens ill opinion , or any other worldly feare or worldly hope , these seven betray men to , and kéepe men in damnable errours , p. 158. it is one of the most honest passages in his book . brethren let us beware of these motives . qu. what kinde of man was knot ? ans. one that went about to delude his king , and countrey with strange captions ; sure mr chillingworth and hee were both of a make , read 117. qu. how may a king usurp an absolute lordship and tyranny over any people ? ans he néed not put himself to the trouble and difficulty of abrogating lawes , made to maintaine common liberty ; for he may frustrate their intent , and compasse his own design as well , if he can get the power and authority to interpret them as he pleases , and to adde to them what he pleases , and to have his interpretations and additions stand for lawes ; if he can rule his people by his laws , and his laws by his lawyers , p. 51. cap. 2. i think our iudges followed his directions in the point of ship-money . qu. what weapons of warfare may be justly called carnall ? ans. massacres , treasons , persecutions , and in a word all meanes either violent or fraudulent . p. 52. god grant that the irish forces which land daily , doe not make us as well acquainted with this warfare in england , as they are in ireland . qu. what obedience doe we owe to the lawes and judgements of courts ? answ. onely externall obedience , not internall approbation . p. 97. qu. if i disapprove the judgement of any court , am i bound to conceale my owne judgement ? ans. no , i may lawfully professe my iudgement , and represent my reasons to the king or common-wealth in a parliament , as sir thomas moore did without committing any fault , p. 97 why then are men so much blam'd for professing their judgement against some things which seeme to be established by law , and representing their reasons to the parliament ? and why did not master chillingworth yeeld externall obedience to the common-wealth of england in this parliament ? for who can deny that the common-wealth of england is assembled in this parliament ? qu. may not a court which pretends not to be infallible , be certain enough that they judge aright ? answ. yes , our iudges are not infallible in their iudgements , yet are they certaine enough that they iudge aright , and that they procéed according to the evidence that is given , when they condemne a thiefe or a murtherer to the gallowes . p. 140. now reader judge master chillingworths workes , my proceedings , and this treatise according to the evidence given : and thinke an implicite faith in thine owne reason almost as bad as implicite faith in the church or pope of rome . i conclude all as doctor fern concludes his last booke . the god of power and wisdome cast out all counsels , and defeat all designes that are against the restoring of our peace , and the continuance of the true reformed religion amen . soli deo gloria . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a79473e-200 dr. bayly , dr. prideaux , dr. fell . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . ezek. 8. 16. ezek. 8. 17. 18. isa. 50. ult. isa. 8. 9 , 10. vbi jus humanum , naturale vel divinum , arma e●pere jubet , ibi juris autoritas intervenit , etiamsi expressa voluntas principis non accedat . biel. 4. sent. q. 4. dr ferne his 2. book p. 33. dr fern ib. p. 27 dr ferns 2. book p. 6. book 2 p. 34. book 2. p 28. book 2. pag. 6. 2 book p. 28. ib. ubi supra . 2 book p. 16. iudg. 9. 24. * ac ne maledicis verborum in eos uti conviciis arguamur causam perditionis publicae ne cuiquam ignota sit non tacemus , hilar. contra arian p. 214 iudg. 9. 19 , 20 , 23 and 57 verses . notes for div a79473e-2200 a nec plancus illepide , cum diceretur asinius pollio orationes in eum parare quae p●st mortem planci ederentur ne resp●ndere posset , cum mortuis non nisi larvas luctari ; quo apud erud tos nihil impudentius judicatur . plin. praefat. hist. natural . * scilicet esse oportet . marii reliquiat dissipari jussit , acerbiore odio , quàm si tam sapiens suisset quàm vehemens fuit . cicero de l●g . consulas histor. de vita & obitu buceri . tertul. in apolog. synod . eliber . can. 34. 37. vigilantius cum synodo praedict. illam gentilium consuetudinem damnavit : prope ( inqu●t vigilantius ) ritum gentil●um videmus sub praetextu religion●s introductum in ecclesias dei , sole ad●us fulgente moles cereo●um accendi : hieron. ad vigilant . cap. 2. virgil . en●id . videsis greg. naz. orat. in laudem gorgor . comment. in iob vulgo ascripta origeni lib. 3. ambros. de valent . & gratiano disser●n . beati ambo si quid meae orationes valebunt : nulla dies vos silenti● praeteribit nulla inhonoratos vos mea transibit oratio , nulla nox non donatos aliquâ precum mearum contextione transcurret , &c. ambros. de obitu valentiniani imperatoris . gen. 50. 7 , 9 , and 14 verses . dr vsher his answer to the les●ites challenge , upon the argument of prayer for the dead . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . chrysost. hom. 4. in epist. ad heb. a plain defence of the protestant religion, fitted to the meanest capacity being a full confutation of the net for the fishers of men, published by two gentlemen lately gone over to the church of rome. wherein is evidently made appear, that their departure from the protestant religion was without cause of reason. written for publick good by l. e. a son of the church of england, as by law established. l. ė. 1687 approx. 144 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 32 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a66243 wing w251a estc r221936 99833180 99833180 37655 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a66243) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 37655) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2160:6) a plain defence of the protestant religion, fitted to the meanest capacity being a full confutation of the net for the fishers of men, published by two gentlemen lately gone over to the church of rome. wherein is evidently made appear, that their departure from the protestant religion was without cause of reason. written for publick good by l. e. a son of the church of england, as by law established. l. ė. wake, william, 1657-1737, attributed name. [16], 46, [2] p. printed by s.l. and are to be sold by r. taylor, near stationers-hall, london : 1687. wing attributes this work to william wake. with a preliminary imprimatur leaf dated jan. 26. 1686/7. tightly bound. reproduction of the original in the lambeth palace library, london. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng j. c., -late convert. -net for the fisher of men and the same which christ gave to his apostles -controversial literature -early works to 1800. catholic church -controversial literature -early works to 1800. catholic converts -controversial literature -early works to 1800. protestantism -apologetic works -early works to 1800. 2004-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-01 john latta sampled and proofread 2005-01 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion imprimatur . guil. needham . jan. 26. 1686 / 7. a plain defence of the protestant religion , fitted to the meanest capacity : being a full confutation of the net for the fishers of men , published by two gentlemen lately gone over to the church of rome . wherein is evidently made appear , that their departure from the protestant religion was without cause or reason . written for publick good by l. e. a son of the church of england , as by law established . be not tossed too and fro with every wind of doctrine , by the sleight of men , and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive . eph. 4. 14. london , printed by s. l. and are to be sold by r. taylor , near stationers-hall , 1687. to mr. j. c. and mr. j. m. c. the authors of the net for the fishers of men. gentlemen , i hope that your design in publishing your little treatise , was a zealous desire to bring others of your country-men into the same church which you have made your selves members of , out of pure love to their souls , which you ( i suppose ) think cannot be safe out of its communion : and i am the rather induced to believe it , because you seem so confident of the strength of your arguments , that in the epistle dedicatory , you reckon them unanswerable , and in that to the reader you express your sence of them to be very high . this i take to be an effect of your zeal , for i am sure it is not of your knowledg , and i would charitably perswade my self , that you love the truth too well , to pretend a defence of what you know is erroneous , or endeavour to promote the progress of delusions ; but out of a sincere heart offer the reasons which prevailed with you to a change , not seeing their weakness ; which is indeed so very notorious , that i never thought to have seen them published , though i have often known them vigorously pressed in private discourses , where heat and unwariness may let them pass without discovering that there is nothing of force in them ; it being generally the practice of the romanists , but especially the jesuits , to have a set of arguments for private unstudied adversaries , with which they catch too many , who because they carry a specious shew at first , examine but little farther , and without consulting others , suffer themselves to be led captive . i have in the following treatise , according to your desire in the preface , annexed my answers to your queries ; for which reason i have done it by way of dialogue , that so i might be the more brief , and omit nothing of what you offered . i don't doubt but i have shewn the weakness of every particular argument ; but to save you and my self a great deal of trouble , if you reply , i shall here take notice of several gross faults in your arguing , which if they be not remedied , will create endless difficulties . you never tell us what you mean by the word church ; in some places you take it for the congregation of the faithful , in others for a council , and in others for a particular church . in your allegations out of scripture you bring many texts , which indeed prove nothing to your purpose . thus in a question of the universal church , you bring a text that speaks of a particular one , or of every private minister . and in the question about confirmation , in defence of oyl , and balm , you cite places which mention only imposition of hands . you suppose the roman church to be the only church of christ , without any proof , which is plain begging the question , and not arguing : so in other places you beg the question : and you take it for granted that peter had the chief charge over the apostles committed to him , that all oral tradition is apostolical , that god hath commanded nothing concerning a liturgy in an unknown tongue : and that because reliques have been the instruments by which miracles were wrought , therefore they must be worshipped . you mistake the question , and run on upon a point not contested ; which is arguing to no purpose , nothing but making a puppet , and knocking him down . thus when the question is about praying in an unknown tongue , you argue for the lawfullness of speaking with tongues ; in the point of free will you plead for free will in moral actions , which we acknowledge , when the question is about those actions that are spiritual : again you argue against faith without works , when the question is , whether faith alone justifies , not whether faith can be without works ; for that we deny as well as you . so in the point of religious vows , you argue for the lawfullness of vows in general , when the controversy is about those particular vows , which we condemn . you quote several scriptures famous , not only as to the particular references , of which there are a multitude , so many that i am afraid you took them up upon trust ; but also the very texts . thus you make st. paul call marriage a sacrament , when he calls it only a mystery ; so you have falsified , heb. 12 11. and several other places , as i have proved in the book it self . i might add several instances of these and other particulars , such as your taking the word universal in three several sences , and yet applying all one way , but these shall suffice , and i am in hopes will let you see how wretchedly your pretended fathers have dealt with you , by putting such arguments upon you , and founding your faith upon such weak grounds . i desire you would not take it ill that i attribute this work to some of them , and do so freely tax you with not seeing the vanity of it ; for i suppose you are gentlemen , whose education hath engrossed your time to other matters , and cannot therefore be reasonably supposed to have sufficient experience in these points to make you able to discern their sophisms , and unconcluding arguments , which they have shamm'd upon you for convincing reasons . if you are convinc'd by this answer , i shall bless god for it ; if not , i desire you would satisfy the world why you are not : but don 't follow tht methods of some late writers , who have wisely withdrawn from the main business , and only cavilled at a word or two , as being . improper , or something of that nature , when they could not answer the reasons of their adversaries , nor defend their own : i might easily have done so by you , but as i have dealt seriously and plainly , i expect the same , and i pray god send us his holy spirit to lead us into all truth . i am , gentlemen , your very humble servant , l. e. to the reader , courteous reader , a serious enquiry and search after truth is the duty of every rational creature , and he that hath an unfeigned desire to find it , and happiness in it , will not neglect any lawful means to arrive at the knowledge of it ; seeing by it the mind is enlightened , our faith regulated and fixed , and our actions guided to that true felicity , which crowns the soul with peace here , and bliss hereafter . the consideration of this , when duly weighed , can never fail of putting us on enquiry , how we shall attain it . the jaylor was no sooner awakened , but he puts the question , what shall i do ? and we have this enoouragement to prosecute the search , that if we seek , we shall surely find , and the holy spirit shall guide us into truth . of all the papers lately published by the gentlemen of the romish church , i find none which seems more earnestly to seek truth , than this which i have here answered , and i am not so uncharitable as to doubt at all of the sincerity of the authors profession , in the epistle ; but i must say they have not taken the right course ; these queries should have been put before they turned ; which if they had , i believe their now ghostly fathers had missed their proselytes ; therefore i desire of thee , reader , that if any reply be made to this treatise , or if some emissaries should attempt thee privately in defence of what i have here answered , thou wouldest suspend thy judgment till i have time to reply , or else consult some learned divine , and then i am sure there is no danger of thy perversion , if thou retainest a sincere desire to find the truth ; the want of that caution hath perverted several , within my knowledge ; the priests industriously keeping those , whom they design upon , from such helps , by urging the plainness of their arguments , which often catch unconsidering persons . for thy benefit i have answered every argument , which my adversaries offer , setting it first down in their own words . so that all the papist speaks , is the words of their book , which i have therefore caused to be printed in a different letter ; i have been brief in my answers , yet plain and full ; if any reply be made , i desire it may be done with the same calmness i have used , and without running from the question ; if any particular be proved erroneous , i here promise to recant it , for i write not out of prejudice or passion , god is witness ; but a desire to find the truth ; and i shall receive so much satisfaction from being better informed , that i shall not be ashamed to learn. my adversaries profess the same . i beg of them , they would keep to it , i promise nothing but plain evidence of truth shall prevail with me , i hope the same of them : that if they find the motives of their change weak and frivolous , as i think i have made them appear to be , they will not be ashamed to make ●● better . since my answer was finished , there came forth a treatise , pretending to search into the grounds of religion , which is much to the same purpose with that i have here answered , and i don't know any material passage in it but what thou wilt find resolved here : it is drest up with a little more art than my adversaries , and consequently with less sincerity . one of the great charges which they draw up against us is , that we follow the private spirit ; a word which they make much use of , but i don't know what they mean by it ; if they intend to blame us for expecting the assistance of the spirit of god , in teaching , and instructing us ; let them prove that god hath not promised it , and we are not to expect it , if they can : but if they mean ( as i suppose ) the believing nothing but what sence and reason tells us is from god ; if it be this they call the private spirit , at the same time they find fault with us , they condemn themselves : for it is no more than what they must necessarily follow in reading their councils , catechisms , and fathers , or in hearing their preachers ; for we do not use our reason in the examining the truth of what god hath said ; but in examining what it is that he hath said ; and let them shew us another way to come to the knowledge of his will ; and they will do more than their infallible councils ever thought of . i would willingly take away all occasion of disputing about words , for which reason i desire thee to take notice , that because i would not puzzle the unlearned reader with hard words . i have called several passages , metaphors in the 61st . query , which are indeed metonymies ; but the other term being more generally understood , i chose to use it , which i hope my adversaries will take notice of , and not wrangle about the propriety of the expression , when there is no need of it . i cannot but take notice what wonderful reverence my adversaries and their church , pretend to have for the fathers ; and yet these gentlemen , quer. 73. charge several of them with blasphemy : for say they , if you say , christ descended into the hell of the damned , then you blaspheme , and yet st. austin ( ser. 120. de tempore : lib. 12. de genesi ad litteram c. 33. & epist . 57. ad dardan . & epist. 59. ad euo-diam diam , and st. jerome ( commen . in zachar. c. 9. verse 11. ) teaches that he descended to the hell of the damned , even to the hell where dives was punished . so that though the author of nubes testium , p. 208 , 209. censures the protestants for rejecting the fathers in some things ; yet we find they only are not to be blamed for it ; for these gentlemen and the jesuits who approved their book , charge them with blasphemy ; which is a something bolder way of treating them , than what that author accuses them of , but 't is no unusual thing with them ; for i can make it appear , that there is not one of the fathers of the first five ages , nay scarce any of later date , but are censured and rejected , and accused of ignorance and error , by the greatest of the romanists . i will trespass upon thy patience no longer , but with my hearty prayers to the god of truth , that he would remove prejudice from thy heart , and clearly discover the truth to thee , as it is in jesus . i commend thee to god , and rest , thy servant , l. e. introduction . if you had not left the state of the question wholly untouched , and made use of general terms , without explaining in what sence you intended to have them understood , when the whole controversy depended upon the right acceptation , you would have proceeded with greater candor than i could ever yet find any of your authors shewed . thus you make serveral dilemma's upon the church , the visibility and unity of it , but never tell us what you mean by the church : but seing you speak of the church of christ in general , in your first dilemma , i suppose you inténded that church , which is thus defin'd by the catechism ad parochos out of st. austin , ( par. 1. pag. 77. edit . lug. ann . 1676 ) the church is the faithful people dispersed throughout the whole world. now in this sence , i answer to your dilemma's by way of dialogue . pa. 1. god hath a church in the world , or he hath not . pro. he hath . pa. then yours is the true church , or it is not . pro. if by our church you mean those who in opposition to the roman are termed the reformed ; i answer that it doth not follow that they are either the true church , or not : for they may be and are a part of it , and thus in the name of all protestants , i affirm we are a part of the true church . pa. if yours is the true christian church , then it must have these following marks , visibility , unity , universality , sanctity . pro. i told you before we are not the whole , but a part of the true church , for we dare not , as you do , exclude all from salvation , who are not in all things of our profession : and therefore to find whether we be a part of it or no , we are not to look for these marks , but for the conformity of our doctrines with the word of god ; or if we should allow these for marks of the true church , the way to know whether we be part of the true church or no , is to enquire whether we teach the same doctrine , which we are to prove by the holy scriptures , according to that of st. austin , ( de unit. eccl. c. 16. ) let them shew whether they have the church only by the canonical books of the divine scriptures . but we deny these to be the marks of the true church . of visibility , a mark of the church . pa. 2. the house of our lord shall be prepared on the top of mountains , or it shall not . pro. it shall , isa. 2. 2. pa. why then do you deny that the church shall be always visible ? pro. because that text ( isai. 2. 2. ) is no promise of a perpetual visibility , but only of a time when it shall be so , and so it was in the primitive times , but it doth not say , it shall never cease to be so visible . where by visible i mean , that the true church shall be always in sight , so as by its external glory to be known to be the true church : and this that text doth not promise ; for it will not follow , that because the church shall be so , therefore it shall be always so ; and if it be not always so , it can be no mark . pa. 3. a city seated on an hill can be hid , or not . pro. it cannot . pa. then the church cannot be invisible . mat. 5. 14. pro. that doth not follow : for in the judgment of divers fathers , this place is not spoken of the church , but the apostles , or the good works of christians . but if it be understood of the church , all that it proves is , that it cannot be hid , as long as it is seated upon an hill ; but it doth not follow that it shall be always seated there . pa. 4. christ either founded a church on earth that all nations may be edified therein , or he did not . pro. he did . pa. why then do you say the church may be invisible , since all nations cannot be edified in a church unseen ? isai. 2. 2. all nations shall flow unto her , psal. 86. 9. all nations whatsoever thou hast made , shall come and adore before thee . pro. because there is no promise that the church shall be evident to all nations at all times , but that there shall come a time when it shall be so : but it doth not say it shall be so always ; but it shall be evident so as to edify all nations in god's time . pa. 5. a man for not hearing the church , is termed in scripture an heathen , and a publican or not . pro. he is . mat. 18. 18. he that will not hear the church , let him be to thee as an heathen or publican . pa. how then shall a man be termed an heathen or publican for not hearing a church , that was not visible , or yet extant in the world ? pro. this text is nothing to the purpose , and that upon two accounts . 1. because the question is , whether the true church be always visible to those who are not members of it , as heathens , infidels , &c. now this text speaks only of those who are members of it ; to these it is always visible , but not to those . 2. because the question is , whether the universal church be always visible ; but this text speaks of a particular congregation : and therefore is not to the purpose ; seeing if it proves any church always visible , it proves every particular congregation to be so : but as it is plain that these arguments do not prove that the church is to be always visible ; so neither do you at all prove that if it were so , it would be a mark of the true church , seeing pagan and jewish churches can plead visibility , and yet it doth not follow they are the true church , because they have it . of unity , as a mark of the true church . pa. 6. a natural unity and connection of the parts among themselves , and to the head is necessary for the conservation of the body , or it is not . pro. it is . pa. if it be , why is that natural connection proper to a natural body , and not a spiritual connection proper to a spiritual body ? pro. a spiritual connection is proper to a spiritual body : but this is nothing to the purpose , as a proof that unity is a mark of the true church : for this connection of the spiritual body must be an union and connection of each part in sound doctrine ; now we must know what doctrine is sound , before we can know whether the parts be united in it . pa. 7. christ promised that there should be unity in his church , john 10. 16. or he did not . pro. he did . pa. if he did , why do you deny unity ? pro. we do not deny it , we maintain it : but we deny it to be a mark of the church : which it cannot be , seeing this unity must be either in true doctrine or in false ; it cannot be in false : if it be in true , we must first know which is true , before we can know whether it be the unity christ promised . pa. 8. unity is either requisite in gods church , or not . pro. it is . pa. why do you then deny the necessity of unity ? pro. we do not deny it to be necessary , we maintain that without unity , in all points of faith , there can be no church ; but it will not follow , that because it is necessary , it is a mark whereby heathens may know the church ; seeing other pretended churches have unity as well as the christian : and nothing can be a mark which is not proper to it alone . pa. 9. christ when he prayed , his prayer took effect , or it did not . pro. it did . pa. if it did , then christs people are one . pro. they are so . what then ? but it doth not thence follow that unity is or can be a mark to know the church by . where pray remember i speak of such a mark , whereby those who are not of the church may know her , to be the true church . of universality , as a mark of the true church . pa. 10. to be universal or coexstent with time and place , is a mark of the true church , or it is not . pro. i could wish you would a little explain what you mean by those terms ; if you mean as bellarmine and the catechism ad parochos , that to be called universal , is a mark of the true church ; or if you intend that to be existent every where , be a mark of it , i answer it is not . pa. why then does the scripture say , matth. 28. 20. go ye teach all nations , &c. and behold i am with you even to the consummation of the world. and again , ephes. 4. 12. he gave some apostles , &c. to the consummation of the saints ? pro. the scripture says so , because under the gospel the church was not limited to the nation of the jews , but all nations might be members of it : and there should be a church to the end of the world ; but it doth not therefore say this church should be in all nations , at all times , much less doth it say that its being so is a mark that it is the true church . besides that text of st. paul , ephes. 4. 12 , 13. is spoken of the perfection of the saints in holiness , not of the consummating their number , tho' if it were , it says nothing of the name universal , or the churches existing every where , being a mark to know it by . pa. 11. the church of god is either universal , or coexistent with all time , or not . pro. it is . john 14 , 15 , 16. the comforter shall abide with you for ever . luke 1. 33. he shall reign in the house of jacob for ever , and of his kingdom there shall be no end . pa. if it be , why do you deny universality ? pro. before you took universality in one sense , now in another , that the church shall abide for ever ; and this universality we do not deny ; but we deny it to be a mark of the true church , and that for this reason , because it cannot be known what church shall endure for ever , till the end of all things ; matter of future duration being impossible to be known , till the time is finished ; for how can you know before-hand what will endure for ever ? the true church will endure for ever ; but you must first know which of all the pretenders to it is the true , before you can know which shall endure for ever . this therefore cannot be a mark of the true church . for the marks of a thing are always present , but this duration is not present , but to come , and therefore cannot be a mark. pa. 12. christ's church is universal or co-existent with all places , or it is not . pro. you seem here to mean that christ's church is dispersed over all the world , in all places ; and if so , i say it is not . pa. how then can it be true , that their sound went over all the earth , or kow can all nations be taught ? pro. all nations shall be taught ; but there is no necessity that they should be so at all times ; or that the church should be always dispersed in all nations ; so that this can be no mark , because a mark must be always evident , but it was not evident in the beginning of christianity , nor is not now in many places . pa. 13. the church of christ is either universal or catholick , or it is not . pro. what mean you by its being universal , or catholick ? if you mean as we do in the creed , that it comprehends all the true professors of the gospel , i say it is . pa. why then do you renounce universality ? pro. we do not renounce it , we only say it is no mark : for seeing the catholick church , is that church which comprehends all true christians , we must first know who are true christians , before we can know , what church comprehends them . of sanctity , as a mark of the true church . pa. 14. the church of christ is eminent for sanctity of discipline and dectrine , or it is not . pro. it is . pa. why then do you deny sanctity in the church ? pro. we do not deny it , we affirm it , that is , holiness and purity of doctrine , to be the mark of the true church : and we desire it may be tryed whether we are not of the true church by that rule . pa. 15. the church of christ is either sanctified , or she is not . pro. the church of the elect is sanctified , but the church of visible professors is not ; yet the doctrine of it is indeed holy , as to the foundation , in which respect , we do not deny sanctity in the church . pa. 16. the church of christ is manifested to be holy by the grace of miracles , or she is not . pro. the grace of miracles is a new grace , which i understand not : and i believe , neither do you ; but for the gift of miracles , i say that is not a mark of the sanctity of the church . pa. why then did christ say , joh. 14. 12. &c. he that believes in me , the works that i do he shall do , and greater ? pro. christ said so , because he gave the holy spirit to his followers , and a power of working miracles as long as it was necessary ; but it doth not follow , that it is so always , much less doth it follow , that they are a mark to know the holiness of the church by ; seeing antichrist is to do miracles , and the holy fathers tell us , hereticks did many , yet their miracles will not prove the sanctity of their church . pa. 17. christ either granted true believers the grace of casting out devils , or he did not . pro. christ did not grant that power to all true believers . pa. why then do you belye the scriptures ? mar. 16 , 17. pro. we do not belye them : that text is not spoken of all , at all times , that do believe : and this you must grant , or else affirm , that none are saved , but them who work miracles : which is absurd and false . that power was given in the beginning of the church , because it was necessary , but you cannot prove it so now : however we do not deny that god can work miracles by the hands of his faithful servants , when he pleases , but we do deny that they either are , or can be a mark to find the true church , or its holiness by : and you cannot prove that god ever intended or promised that they should be so . the true way , to find the church , is to examine the holyness , and purity of its doctrine , and on this we rest our cause , that ours is pure and holy , and therefore we are of the true church . pa. 18. your church hath these abovementioned marks , or she hath not : and if not , she is false . pro. that doth not follow , for they are not the marks of the true church , as i have proved ; holiness indeed is a mark of the true church , that is , holiness of doctrine , and that we affirm we have , which is a sufficient answer to the rest of your queries ; however let us hear them . pa. 19. your church hath been apparent or visible , ever since christ , or it hath not ; and if not , she is false . pro. our church hath been always visible to its members : though as a distinct congregation , not to those who were not members of her , but it is not therefore true , that it is false : for visibility , i have proved not to be a mark of the true church . pa. 20. your church either did appear before luther and calvin , or it did not . pro. it did . pa. if she did , in what kingdom or nation was your doctrine preached , or by whom ? pro. our doctrine was preached by christ and his apostles , and by the ancient fathers , in all nations , where-ever the gospel came , and this we are ready to prove . pa. 21. martin luther and john calvin were the first founders of your church , or they were not . pro. they were not . pa. if not ; produce any that ever professed ' the same articles with you before them . pro. we do produce christ and his apostles with the general consent of the fathers for the first five hundred years after christ ; and even when the church was hid in babylon , and fled into the wilderness , from the tyranny of antichrist , there were multiiudes who professed the same as we do . pa. 22. luther and calvin either separated themselves from the world , or they did not ; if they did , then they departed from the visible christiàn religion . pro. i never heard before , that to depart from the world , which is the duty of every good christian , was to depart from the christian religion : it was always accounted a cleaving to it ; but i suppose you mean , they departed from the church , or they did not , and then i answer , they did not ; they departed not from the christian church , nay , not from the roman church ; but only from the errors of it : for we still profess a communion with all the orthodox , living in the communion of that church ; nay at that time the church was visible in the waldenses , &c. from whom they separated not : so that they departed not from the visible church , though if they had , they had done no more than what the people of god are commanded to do , in obedience to that call , rev. 18. 4. come out of babylon , my people . pa. if they did not , who joyned with them , or to whom did they adhere ? pro. all who obeyed that call of god , whose eyes god opened to see , and whose hearts he encouraged to leave those corruptions they lived under : all these joined with them : and for the other question , to whom did they adhere ? i answer , they adhered to christ and his apostles , and the triumphant church in heaven , to the doctrine of the ancient fathers , and to all those who had shaken off the corruptions of rome : who were at that time in bohemia , germany , piedmont , france , england , &c. many thousands ; they adhered likewise to the eastern churches who never acknowledged the pope , nor were polluted with the corruptions of rome . lastly , they adhered to all who lived in the communion of rome , and were not tainted with the corruptions of it . pa. 23. your church either hath unity , or it hath not . pro. it hath . pa. why then are there so many sects and schisms among you ? pro. there are none who differ in essential points : in which unity of doctrine consists : as for those sects who do differ in essentials , they are none of our church , but the spawn of yours , as we can prove . pa. 24. all your reformers did either agree in matters of faith , or they did not . pro. they did : all those who we own to be of our church , did . pa. why did they so much differ in essential points ? pro. they did not differ in any essential points . pa. 25. luther and calvin were either true reformers , or they were not : if not , then you follow false reformers . pro. they were true reformers . but if they were not , you can bring no argument against us , for we follow them no f●●●ther than they followed christ. pa. if they were , why did they differ in the most essential point of the holy sacrament ? pro. they do not differ in an essential point ; their difference there , is not essential , they both agree that christ is present , but for the manner of his presence , it is no essential point . pa. but they differ in the government of the church . pro. they do not differ in any essential matter in that point , even according to your own principles . pa. 26. all your reformations either do agree , or they do not . pro. all our reformations do agree in essential points ; as for others , who call themselves reformers , but are not , we have nothing to say to them . pa. if they do produce any two that agree in all points . pro. all of them agree in all necessary points , and i challenge you to produce any differences in such points among us ; the difference we have about lesser questions , are greater among you than us . pa. 27. your church either is universal , or it is not ? pro. i have proved that universality is no mark of the true church ; and therefore the question is impertinent : we do not say we are the catholick church , but a part of it , and this we are ready to prove ; but it is not necessary to shew any of our preachers in japonia , &c. for the same question might be put to the christian church in the ancient times , before many nations were converted : and to your church it self , at the first discovery of america ; shew one of your preachers in those countries . pa. 28. your church hath either converted nations , or she hath not . pro. she hath . pa. if she hath , shew one nation that she hath ever converted . pro. all nations converted by the apostles , and primitive christians , or by the true church in any age , were converted by that church , of which we are a part : new-england , and many other parts of the west-indies , with several places in the east , have in particular been converted by the protestants . pa. 29. your church either hath been universal , or it hath not : if not , she is not the true church . pro. i told you before , we are only a part of the true church ; and for the question , whether it be universal or not : it hath been as universal as the true church hath been ; but i would willingly know what you mean by universal ; for if you mean in all places , we deny it to be a mark of the true church , as i proved before . pa. what time hath your church been coexistent before luther and calvin ? pro. i told you just now , our church was existent in the apostles , and primitive times , and ever since , though not so visible as then . if you mean any thing else by the term coexistent , when you explain it , i will give you a farther answer ; which is a clear answer to the next query , 30. in whatever place the apostles and primitive , and orthodox christians were , there was our church , and this we are ready to prove . pa. 31. your church hath sanctity , or it hath not . pro. it hath . pa. if she hath shew one of yours that ever was canoniz'd . pro. that is an impertinent question : how comes canonization to be a note of the churches sanctity ? and where did ever god command it ? so that it cannot be an evidence of the churches sanctity , but is indeed a meer , invention of men ; but our sanctity we will prove by the word of god , because we teach the same doctrine which that contains . pa. 32. luther and calvin , and the rest of your reformers , confirmed their doctrine with miracles , or they did not . pro. what if they did not ? pa. if they did not , they were not true apostles . pro. the doctrine they preached was not theirs , but that which christ and his apostles taught , and confirm'd by miracles ; so that it needed no more confirmation : except we had received it upon their authority , which we did not : we acknowledge they were not apostles , as the twelve were ; and therefore no need of their working miracles . pa. 33. the signs which christ said in scripture , followed your pretended reformers , or they did not . pro. all the signs which christ said , should always accompany the true preachers of the gospel , did follow them . pa. if they did , shew one man they dispossessed , or one sick that they restored to health : for if these signs did not follow them , they are not true believers . pro. that doth not follow , for christ never made that a sign of true believers ; nay , you must confess that many never worked any of these miracles , who are yet true believers . if indeed they had preached any new doctrine , you might call for miracles , but seeing they preached none new , but the doctrine that was taught by christ , his apostles , and the ancient fathers , there is no need to confirm that by miracles , seeing all the miracles christ , and his apostles wrought , were for that end . however we can shew many certain instances of mens being dispossessed , by the prayers of the faithful in our church ; and many among us who have had their health restored them in answer to their own and the churches prayers : but for all that we have better grounds for our faith , which we rest upon . pa. 34. your reformers were either famous for their virtuous lives , or they were not . pro. they were . pa. if they were ; why did they break their vows made to god , and teach men so to do ? pro. the vows which they broke , were unlawful vows , and your own canons expresly say , that an unlawful vow ought to be broken : ( c. 22. qu. 4. c. in malis . ) by breaking then their vow of single life , that is , by repenting of it , and not observing it , they did no more than what they were in duty bound to do : and therefore were holy men for all that ? pa. 35. the catholick roman church and no other stands firm and infallible , against all the tempests of apostasie , heresy and schism . pro. the roman church is not firm nor infallible , but as to the visible part of it , is fallen both by apostasie , heresy , and schism . pa. 36. the romans had once the true church , or they had not . pro. the question is ambiguous ; if you mean by it that the roman church was the true church , as the mother of all other , i deny it : if you mean that the roman church was a true church , and had the true faith ; i answer that she had the true faith. pa. if the romans had the true faith , they retain the same still infallibly , or do not . pro. they do not . pa. 37. if they do not , then they must have their fall , either by apostasie , heresie , or schism . pro. she hath fallen by them all . pa. the ancient , apostolick , catholick , roman church , fell by apostasie , or it did not . pro. the ancient , apostolick , catholick church , fell not at all : nay the ancient roman church fell not : but the present roman church is fallen . pa. if she is fallen by apostasie , what prudent man will say that she ever renounced the sweet name of jesus , which she ever hath in so great veneration ? pro. she may have fallen by apostasie , and yet not , have renounced the name of jesus , so that her having it in so great veneration , is no argument that she is not fallen by apostasie . pa. 38. the roman church fell by heresie , or she did not . pro. she did . pa. if she did , by what general council was she ever condemn'd ? which of the fathers ever wrote against her ? or by what authority was she otherwise reprov'd ? pro. if nothing be an heresy but what a general council condemns , then those heresies which sprang up in the first three hundred years , were wrongfully esteemed such in those times , seeing there was then no general council : if a doctrine may be heretical which was never condemned by a general council , then the dostrines of the church of rome may be heretical , though never condemned by a general council , so that question doth not vindicate her from being guilty of heresie . pa. but , which of the fathers ever wrote against her ? pro. all the ancient fathers disclaim those doctrines which the roman church now holds : but they could not write purposely against her , because she did not then profess those doctrines . but if it be a good argument , the church of rome fell not into heresy , because no father wrote purposely against her ; then the same argument will vindicate us , seeing no father hath writ against us : but if no father had writ against the church of rome , she might be heretical for all that , so that this question and the former are both impertinent . pa. but by what authority was she reproved ? pro. by the authority of the scriptures , by the authority of the testimony of the antient church , and the authority of right reason . pa. 39. the ancient roman church fell by schism , and by dividing herself from some other church , or she did not . pro. she did . pa. if she did , whose company did she leave ? from what body did she go forth ? where was the true church she forsook ? pro. she forsook the primitive church , the eastern church , and all those christians who always maintained their freedom from the roman yoke . pa. 40. the true holy apostolick catholick church is fallible , and can err , or it cannot . pro. remember by the church i mean the faithful throughout the world , and of these i say , they all cannot err in any point of faith. pa. why do you then falsly condemn her ? pro. we do not condemn her , we are part of her , but for the roman church , we condemn her . pa. 41. the church of god is infallible in all her proposals , and definitions of faith , or she is not . pro. all definitions made by the whole church of christ , are infallibly true . pa. if she be , why do you deny infallibility ? pro. the infallibility we deny , is that of a pope or council ; and this we deny , because they are not the whole church , and therefore though the church of christ be infallible , yet they are not . pa. 42. christ being the head of the church , and the holy ghost the soul of the church , guiding and directing the church in all truth ; she can err , or she cannot . pro. she cannot . pa. then she is not fallible . pro. the church of christ is not fallible ; but the roman church is . 43. christ is either a true prophet , or he is not . pro. he is . pa. if he be , how then can the gates of hell prevail against the church ? seeing he prophesied in st. matt. 16. 18. the gates of hell shall not prevail against her . pro. the gates of hell cannot prevail against the church , nor never shall ; that is , they shall not prevail against the whole church , but against any particular church , as the church of rome , they may and have prevailed . but here , as in the rest of your queries , you beg the question , supposing the church of rome to be the only church of christ. pa. 44. the holy ghost suggesteth all truth to the church , or it doth not . pro. it doth . pa. if it doth , then it will suggest no errors . pro. it will not : but that doth not hinder , but it may permit satan to suggest errors to a particular church : this you will allow ; and therefore to the church of rome , which is but a particular church . pa. 45. christ was a wise man , or he was not . pro. he was . pa. why then did he build his house upon the sand , and make it subject to the infernal tempests . pro. he did not build his house upon the sand , nor did he make it subject , that is , he did not subject it to the infernal tempests ; but he made it liable to them , yet still he defeats their force : and though he suffers them to overthrow some outer parts of it , yet the house it self shall never be overthrown . pa. 46. a congregation of people in dispising christ , are guilty of apostasie , or they are not . pro. if they were people that professed christ before , then they are guilty of apostasie in despising him ; but not else : if they never professed christ , they are guilty of horrible sin , but not of apostasie . pa. if they be , how can you clear your selves of apostasie in despising his church ? seeing it is said in scripture , luke 10. 16. he that heareth you , heareth me , &c. pro. we do not despise the church : it is you despise her , by teaching so many things contrary to her doctrine , as we are ready to prove . pa. 47. your church is guilty of heresie , or she is not . pro. she is not . pa. if not , how doth the definition of heresie agree with you , in adhering to so many singular and private opinions , and errors of faith , contrary to the general approved doctrine of the catholick church . pro. it doth not agree at all to us ; we teach no such private and singular opinions ; the doctrines we teach , are the received doctrines of the catholick church ; but it agrees very well to you , whose doctrines wherein we dissent from you , are such private and singular opinions , and contrary to the received doctrine of the catholick church ; and this we will at any time prove . pa. 48. your church is guilty of schism , or it is not . pro. it is not . pa. how then doth the definition of schism agree with you , in dividing your selves from the body of all faithful christians , and in breaking communion with the antient , apostolick , catholick , roman church ? pro. it doth not agree to us : we made no such division , we indeed divided our selves from the corrupt roman church , but we never divided from the ancient apostolick church , but you did , and this i am ready to make good ; see here again you beg the question , and suppose the roman church the only church of christ , which is the point in controversie , and you can never prove . pa. 49. that church to which apostasie , heresy , and schism agree , is a false church , or she is not . pro. she is . pa. then your church is a false church , seeing they so aptly agree with her . pro. they do not agree with her , but rather with you , as i have proved . therefore she is no false church . pa. 50. all that which the ancient holy catholick roman church holds as articles of faith , is pious , good , and lawful . pro. all that the ancient holy catholick church held , is pious , good , and lawful , and so is all that the ancient holy roman church held , for she held nothing but what the catholick church held , but all that the present roman church holds , is not pious , good , and lawful . pa. i prove it is out of holy writ ; and by common sense and reason . pro. both holy writ , and common sense and reason are against you , but go on . of the popes supremacy . pa. 51. the foundation of the church of god , next after christ was builded upon st. peter , or it was not . pro. it was no more builded on st. peter , than upon the other apostles . pa. why then doth the scripture say , mat. 16. 18. thou art peter , and upon this rock will i build my church ? pro. christ says not there , that he will build his church upon the person of peter , but upon the confession that he had before made , vers . 16. thou art christ the son of the living god , which is the foundation of the christian religion ; so st. austin explains it ( aug. trac . 10. in 1 john ) what means this ( saith he ) vpon this rock will i build my church ? upon that faith , upon that which is said , thou art the christ : seeing then christ did not build his church on peter more than the other apostles , we with good reason deny his supremacy . pa. 52. christ did prefer peter before the other apostles , or he did not . pro. he did not give peter any preference of order , or power more than to the other apostles . pa. if he did not , why did he say to peter only , john 21. 16 , 17 , 18 , feed my lambs , feed my sheep ? pro. he did not say it to peter only , st. austin tells us , ( aug. de ago . christ. c. 30. ) when it is said unto peter , feed my sheep , it is said unto all , and st. amb. ( lib. de sacerd. ) which sheep , and flock , st. peter did not receive alone , but we all received them with him . seeing then here was no prerogative given to peter , but what the rest of the apostles , and all pastors received , we have good reason to deny his supremacy . pa. 53. the apostles were of equal authority , or they were not . pro. they were . pa. if they were , why have you primates , archbishops , bishops , and no equal authority as they had ? pro. the question is impertinent , all archbishops are of equal authority in their own provinces ? all bishops are of equal authority in their respective dioceses : so that we have an equal authority . but as bishops were under the apostles , and presbyters under them , so we have the same degrees , but for the office of an apostle , that is ; no longer in the church . pa. 54. to whom the chief charge of feeding christs sheep was given , he was chief of the apostles , or he was not . pro. he was . pa. why then do you deny peter's supremacy , to whom the chief charge was committed . pro. the chief charge was not committed to him , therefore we deny his supremacy . and although i acknowledged that , if the chief charge had been given to any , he had been chief ; yet seeing it was given to none , as i proved before , there was no chief over the rest . of oral tradition . pa. 55. oral and apostolical tradition , without written books , either was the means of planting and conserving the christian religion , or it was not . pro. it was not . pa. if not , how did the apostles propagate the faith of christ , without written books ? pro. they did not , but in propagating the faith they always appealed to the scriptures of the old testament ; they indeed taught the christian doctrine by word of mouth , before they committed it to writing , but that was no tradition handed from father to son , which is the tradition you plead for . pa. 56. the number of the canonical books are mentioned in scripture , or they are not . pro. they are not . pa. if not , how do you know the canonical books , but by oral tradition ? pro. by written tradition , the testimony of all ages , in their writings . pa. 57. the christians of the primitive age , on pain of damnation , held nothing for faith , but what they had received from christ and his apostles for such , or they did not . pro. they did . pa. why then do you deny tradition ? pro. we do not deny all tradition : but we affirm that tradition is not as the council of trent affirms , of equal authority with the written word ; but the primitive christians received their faith from christ , and his apostles , by means of the scriptures , not by means of unwritten tradition . pa. 58. apostolical tradition is the rule by which we may be infallibly assured ; both what doctrine christ and his apostles taught , and what books they wrote , or else not . pro. if you can shew us any apostolical tradition , and prove it to be such , we will own it ; but for unwritten tradition , it is not the rule . pa. if not , how otherwise can we be assured ? pro. what doctrine christ taught , we can be assured by the scriptures ; what books the apostles wrote we can be assured by universal written tradition , the greatest historical evidence ; but not by unwritten . of the eucharist . pa. 59. that natural body and blood , which christ offered upon the cross , for the remission of sins , it was the same which christ gave to his apostles , or it was not . pro. if you mean that material body and blood , it was not . pa. why do you then deny that scripture of st. luke 22. 19. this is my body which shall be given for you ? and that matt. 26. 20. this is the blood of the new testament , which shall be shed for many , for the remission of sins ? pro. why do you falsify the words of st. luke , and st. matthew ? their words are , this is my body which is given for you ; and this is my blood which is shed for many , not which shall be , and we deny not the words of the evangelists , but we deny the real presence you assert , because christ spake here of his real figurative sacramental body , not of his real natural . pa. 60. christ either gave his body and blood to his apostles at his last supper , or he did not . pro. he did . pa. why then do you deny the real presence ? pro. we do not deny a real presence ; but a natural corporal presence we do ; we affirm christ to be present really and sacramentally ; but not naturally , in the body and blood , on which he hung upon the cross , according to that of st. austin ( in psal. 98. ) you shall not eat that body which was crucified , nor drink the blood which was shed upon the cross. pa. 61. when christ said , this is my body , did he speak metaphorically or not ? pro. he did . pa. if he did , prove the metaphor out of scripture . pro. so we do , both from the words of the institution , and the parallel places of scripture . 1. from the words of the institution , this is my body , either those words are to be understood in a metaphorical sense , or they are not ; if not , then they are to be understood in a litteral ; if they are , then they are a metaphor . if they are to be understood in a litteral sense then they are either true in that sense or they are not : if they are not , then christ was a lyar , which is blasphemy ; if they are true in a litteral sense , then the bread is christs body , or it is not ; if it is not , then those words , this is my body , are false ; if it be , then an impossibility is true , for your own authors confess that it is impossible that the bread should be the body of christ litterally ; ( gra. de consec . dist . 2. c. 55 ) but an impossibility cannot be true , therefore the bread is not christs real body . if it be not christs real body , they cannot be taken in a litteral sense therefore they must be taken in a metaphorical . 2. from the parallel places of scripture , when christ , says , i am a vine , it is a metaphor ; when he says , i am a door , it is a metaphor ; when he says , i am a way , it is a metaphor , when he says , this is the cup of the new testament , it is a metaphor : these are parallel places of scripture , all metaphors ; therefore this is my body , is a metaphor too . according to theodoret. ( dial. immutab . ) he who called himself a viae , called the sign his blood. pa. 62. the blessed body of christ not being contained in the bread , can be eaten , or it cannot . pro. that body , which is not contained there , viz. his natural body , cannot be eaten ; but his sacramental body which is spiritually there , may ; therefore we do not maintain that we eat the body which is not contained in the bread ; but that which is therewith given to the faithful we do eat . pa. doth it not imply a great contradiction , seeing you hold , the body is eaten in the eucharist , and not eaten in the eucharist . pro. no. we do not say his body is not eaten : we affirm it is , but not carnally , but spiritually ; so that it is eaten by the faithful , not eaten by the unworthy receiver ; to maintain ( as you do ) that it is eaten and not eaten , at the same time by the same person , would be a contradiction ; but it is none to affirm that it is eaten by the worthy , and not eaten by the unworthy receiver . of liturgy in an unknown tongue . pa. 63. that which the apostles practised , is either lawful for us to practise , or it is not . pro. every thing they practised is not lawful for us to practise , for some things they did , which their extraordinary office warranted , which is not lawful for us to do ; but every thing they practised as private christians , is lawful for us to practise . pa. if it be , why do you deny the lawfulness of the liturgy in an unknown tongue , seeing the apostles had their publick liturgies , in greek , syriack , and latin. pro. we do not deny the lawfulness of liturgies in any tongue , but we deny the lawfulness of using them among , and imposing them upon a people , who understand not the language they are in . and though i deny the liturgies you speak of , to have been extant in the times of the apostles ; yet if they were , they never used a greek liturcy among the latins , but among the greeks , these several liturgies being for the several nations whose language they were pen'd in . pa. 64. seeing god hath commanded nothing concerning the language of the publick liturgy , we ought either to follow the commands of the church , or we ought not . pro. god hath commanded already , that the publick service should be in a known tongue , and not in an unknown ; so that you suppose what is not true ; the whole fourteenth chapter of 1 cor. forbids prayer , or preaching in an unknown tongue ? pa. why do you deny the liturgy in an unknown tongue , seeing the church commands it ? pro. the church doth not command it : the roman church indeed doth , but that is not the church ; we deny it therefore , because it crosses the ends of prayer , which is edification , and because god hath forbid it in the forecited place . pa. 65. the man that prays and gives thanks in an unknown tongue , either doth well , or he doth not . pro. he that gives thanks or prays in a tongue unknown to himself , doth not well : and he that publickly prays , and gives thanks in a tongue unknown to his auditors , doth not well . pa. why do you condemn that place of scripture , 1 cor. 14. 17. thou indeed givest thanks well , but the other is not edified ? pro. we do not condemn that place . the apostle there speaks of the matter of such a person's thanksgiving , which he says may be good ; but at the same time he condemns the manner , the doing it in an unknown tongue , because others are not edified ; and he commands , vers . 26. that all things be done to edifying . this then being a breach of that command , is not lawful ; the apostle says , he may give thanks well for the matter , but not in a right manner , seeing the other is not edified : for which reason we condemn the use of a liturgy in an unknown tongue . pa. 66. that which is praised in scripture , and proved to be pleasing unto god , is either lawful and expedient for us to prastise , or it is not . pro. that which is proved to be pleasing to god for us to do , is lawful . pa. why then do you deny the liturgy in an unknown tongue ? seeing the apostle says , 1 cor. 14. 2. he that speaketh with tongues , speaketh not to men , but god ; and vers . 14. if i pray with tongues , my spirit prayeth , but my understanding is unfruitful ; and vers . 30. to speak with tongues forbid not . pro. for god's sake , sir , consider how strangely you argue , this is the very reason why we condemn publick prayer in an unknown tongue , because it is not to edification ; and because the understanding is unfruitful , and we ought to pray with understanding , 1 cor. 14. 15. the apostle here in vers . 30. commends speaking with tongues , and so do we , but it is one thing to speak with tongues , and another to speak in an unknown tongue ; it is not unlawful to speak to , or pray with the people in greek and hebrew , if they understand it , or i , or any other , interpret it to them . but to speak or pray in a tongue , they do not understand , without interpreting what i say ; is expresly forbid by the apostle , 1 cor. 14. 27 , 28. if any man speak in an unknown tongue , let one interpret ; but if there be no interpreter , let him keep silence in the church . thus prayers in an unknown tongue , are so far from being recommended , that they are expresly forbidden ; therefore we reject them . of confession and absolution . pa. 67. the apostles being made spiritual judges by our lord , had power from him , to bind and loose from sin , or they had not . pro. they had no power to bind and loose from the guilt of sin ; but a power of binding and loosing they had . pa. why then do you reject absolution ? pro. we do not reject it , but the absolution of the church of rome we do , which pretends to more than christ ever gave : and we also deny that it is a sacrament as baptism , and the lord's supper are . pa. 68. the laity are obliged to disclose their faults to their judges , or they are not . pro. if by their judges you mean their ministers , they are not their judges : and they are not obliged to disclose all their faults to them . pa. if not , how can they absolve them from what they know not . pro. absolution is either general or particular ; the general is sufficient , except in particular grievous sins which trouble the conscience , for these we enjoyn a particular absolution : but for the general , it is sufficient for the ministers to know in general that they are sinners , and see that they profess to be penitent . pa. 69. christ in speaking these words , whose sins ye forgive , &c. john 20. 24. spoke true or false . pro. he spoke true . pa. why then do you deny the power of absolution ? pro. we do not deny the power : but we condemn your abuse of it . pa. 70. that which the scripture commands , either is necessary , or it is not . pro. whatever the scripture commands as our duty , is necessary . pa. why then do you deny that of st. james 5. 16. confess your faults one to another . pro. we do not deny it , but we say it doth not prove the necessity of confession to a priest , it speaks of confessing one to another , to our brethren ; therefore by no means proves confession of all our sins to a priest , necessary to salvation . we condemn not the use of confession , but the making it necessary to salvation , and part of a sacrament . of purgatory . pa. 71. there either is a penal prison or place of temporal punishment and payment after this life , or there is not ? pro. there is not . pa. why then do you falsify that scripture , zach. 9. 11. thou also in the blood of thy covenant ; hast set forth thy prisoners out of the pit , wherein there is no water ? pro. we do not falsify it ; but you do ; it is not thou in the blood of thy covenant , but as for thee in the blood of thy covenant , ( or whose covenant is by blood ) i have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit , wherein there was no water : and it speaks not a word of purgatory , but of the deliverance of the israelites , and the redemption by the messiah . pa. why do you falsify that text. mal. 3. 3. he shall purify the sons of levi. pro. we do not falsify it , but we affirm it proves nothing of purgatory , but of the conversion , even of the priests , by the gospel of christ , which we find was fulfilled , acts 6. 7. or if it did speak of a purgatory it speaks only of one , for the sons of levi ; and therefore says nothing of such , a third place as you maintain . pa. but you falsify that text , 1 cor. 3. 15. the work of every man shall be manifest , and yet he himself shall be saved , yet so as by fire . pro. we do not ; but we say it is evident that this whole text is an allusion to the tryal of metals by the fire , and all it says , is this , that he who hath held firm the foundation , if he hath taught any vain ungrounded doctrins ; yet , if in the main he be found sincere , he shall be saved , but as one that scapeth out of the fire : and therefore speaks nothing of a place of purification , after this life , much less of a place of temporal punishment ; for the apostle doth not say he shall be saved by fire , but so as by fire , that is , as one that hath escaped the fire , with much difficulty . pa. but why do you falsify that text. mat. 5. 25. be at an agreement with the adversary quickly , &c. pro. we do not falsify it ; our saviour speaks there of the prison of hell , and of no other ; therefore we say there is no ground for purgatory in this place , therefore we deny it . pa. 72. those souls which our blessed saviour and his apostles , raised from death , were either in heaven or hell , or they were not : if not , why then do you deny a third place . pro. i might very well except against this loose and idle way of arguing , from such unknown points ; but i wave it , and tell you it was not necessary they should be either in heaven or hell. pa. then they must be in a third place . pro. 't is true , but you cannot argue that because on such an extraordinary occasion god kept them in a third place for a time ; therefore there is a third place for all to go to ; but if we should grant that , there is no consequence from hence that will prove that place a place of punishment and purification , if there were a third place destined to souls , ( which we deny ) yet it doth not thence follow , it must be a purgatory . pa. 73. christ's descensiou either was into the hell of the damned , or it was not . pro. what if it was ? pa. then you blaspheme . pro. i deny that christ might go down there to triumph over the powers of darkness upon their own ground ; or for several other reasons . pa. but if it was not into the hell of the damned , it was into a third place . pro. what then ? was it therefore into purgatory : suppose that expression , he descended into hell be meant only of the grave , or the state of the dead , as sheol in hebrew , and hades in greek signify : what is that to purgatory ? i still affirm therefore with st. austin ( ser. 232. ) let no man deceive himself , for there are two places , and there is no third ; he that deserves not to reign with christ , shall without doubt perish with the devil . pa. 74. when christ preached to the souls in prison 1 pet. 3. 19. it was either to the damned , or it was not . pro. we are no where told that christ went and preached unto the damned in hell , or any spirits in a separate state. that which the apostle says , is , that there are many spirits now in prison , to whom christ once preached by his spirit in the ministry of noah : so this speaking nothing , as appears from v. 20. of christ's preaching to spirits already in prison , you can draw no argument from thence . of venial and mortal sins . pa. 75. all kinds of sin , either rob the soul of justice , and make her guilty of damnation , or they do not . pro. guilty of damnation is an odd phrase , but all kinds of sin do make a soul deserve damnation , though every sin doth not rob it of justice , or righteousness . pa. if they do , why then doth christ make three different sorts of sin , of which the least makes a man guilty of damnation ? mat. 5. 23. pro. if the least of them makes a man guilty of damnation , ( as you phrase it ) then every sin does so : and this overthrows you ; but i believe you mistake your own meaning . however you beg the question , for christ doth not there make three different kinds of sin , but speaks of the different degrees of punishments , alluding to the punishments among the jews . pa. 76. all sins are either mortal , and sufficient to break charity betwixt god and man , or they are not . pro. in their own nature all sins are mortal . pa. if they be , then the apostles themselves are not in the charity of god , seeing it is said in st. james 3. 2. we all offend in many things . pro. 't is true , the apostles themselves had not been in the charity of god upon that account , if the grace of christ had not been stronger than the guilt of those sins : so that we do not deny , but there are sins , which we call sins of humane infirmity , which in a regenerate person are but venial , because the grace of christ forgives them , though in their own nature they are mortal . pa. 77. all idle words either are mortal sins , or they are not . pro. all idle sinful words are in their own nature mortal . pa. if they be , how can any one hope for salvation , seeing man ( morally speaking ) can avoid idle words ? pro. by the grace of christ , pardoning those unabidable imperfections . pa. 78. all sins are even unto death , or they are ●ot . pro. if by that expression you mean deserving death , ●hey are . pa. then you make christ a lyar , who said , there is sin unto death , and a sin not unto death . pro. it was not christ but st. john who said so , 1 jo. 16. but he there speaks not of a sin which barely deserves ●eath , but of that sin , which , whosoever commits it , shall ●ertainly dye eternally , that is , the sin against the holy ghost ; he doth not say there is a sin not deserving death , ●ut there is a sin , not unto death , by which as appears by v. 18. ; he means those sins of daily incursion in the regenerate , which though they deserve death , yet they do not bring it ; because the grace of christ covers and forgives them . of invocation of angels and saints . pa. 79. the enjoyment of god , angels , saints , and the glory of heaven , either robs men of their knowledge , or it doth not . pro. it doth not . pa. if not , why do you deny the prophets now in heaven can know things at a distance , as well as they did on earth ? pro. we deny not but god may reveal things to them in an extraordinary manner , as well as when they were on earth ; but as his revealing some things to them on earth , did not prove they knew all things ; so neither will it prove they know all things now : that knowledge then , while here , being only particular and extraordinary , they are not rob'd of , if they have it not ; but if they have it , what is that to praying to them ? pa. 80. the damned spirits of hell either know mor● than the blessed souls , in the glory of the father , or they do not . pro. they do not . pa. if not , why do you acknowledge the devils to understand our most secret thoughts and prayers , and not th● saints and angels also ? pro. we do not acknowledge that the devils understand our thoughts , we say , it is blasphemy , to assert it . for god only knows the thoughts : but we do affirm the devils who are always about us , do know what we speak and act ; but the saints are at a distance from us , and therefore cannot ; and the angels ( if the opinion of every persons , having one for a guardian , be true ) may possibly know the actions of those whom they are guardians to , but this proves no knowledge of the thoughts , nor , if they did know them , is there any reason we should pray to them . pa. 81. the angels of god have prayed for those on earth , or they have not . pro. they have not . pa. why then do you not agree with us , that angels pray for us ? pro. we do agree with you that they pray for us , but what is that to our praying to them ? pa. 82. it is either lawful to pray to the angels , or it is not . pro. it is not . pa. if not , why do you accuse jacob of an error , in invocating the angel to bless his children ? gen. 48 16. pro. jacob did not there invocate any created angel , but the angel of the covenant , the lord jesus christ. so saith st. athanasius , ( orat . 4. in arrian . ) the patriarch jacob in his prayer joined none with god , but him only who is the word , whom he calls angel ; so that we do not condemn him of an error . pa. why do you condemn this text , job . 5. 1. call therefore , and turn to thee some of the saints . pro. we do not condemn that text , but we may justly condemn you for alledging it after such a manner , and to such a purpose : the words are , call now if there be any that will answer thee , and to which of the saints wilt thou turn ? whereby eliphaz upbraids job , as unworthy of such a privilege as he had enjoyed in chap. 4. v. 16. of a vision to instruct him , but says nothing of prayer to saints , or any thing like it . pa. why do you condemn that hos. 12. 4. jacob prevailed against the angel , and wept , and prayed to him ? pro. we do not condemn it : the prophet there speaks of the angel which he met in bethel , gen. 23. 24. which angel was no created angel , but christ ; for gen. 32. 30. jacob calls him god : now will it follow , that because jacob worshipped god , therefore we must invocate a created angel ? are these arguments for men of reason to use ? of the worshipping of angels , and images . pa. 83. when st. john in the apocalypse 22. 8. fell down to adore before the feet of the angel , be knew it either to be lawful , or it was not . pro. it was not . pa. then you accuse the most wise and excellent apostles of gross ignorance , and wilful idolatry . pro. we do not accuse them of gross ignorance , it was no invincible ignorance ; for it is plain , st. john took him for christ , in that the argument he uses to withhold him is , that he was a created spirit , and such an ignorance st. john was guilty of ; but for wilful idolatry we do not accuse him , he did not , as you do , worship that which he knew not to be god , but he was about to worship that which he took for god. i wonder how you can alledge this text in your favour , which is so clearly against you . pa. again , when lot ador'd the angels , gen. 19. 1. with his face bowed towards the earth , he either committed idolatry , or he did not . pro. you beg the question , lot did not adore the angels , the scripture tells us , he rose np to meet them , and bowed himself with his face towards the ground ; which was only a civil salutation , for he took them only for men , and therefore could not adore them : so that there is no argument to be drawn from hence . pa. 84. all that which is recorded in holy writ , to have been done by the known saints of god without reproof , either is lawful or it is not . pro. all that they so did without an extraordinary call to it , is lawful ; but there were some things which were peculiarly lawful to them , which is not so to us . pa. if all things they did ( as their ordinary duty ) be lawful , then why do you call it idolatry to worship images ? pro. because the saints of god never worshipped them . pa. did not john the baptist , the great precursor of christ , worship the very latchets of our saviours shooes ? pro. this is a pleàsant question , where do you find he ever did ? the scripture saith no such thing ; he said indeed , he was not worthy to bear them , but he never worshipped them . prove it if you can . pa. why did jacob worship the top of joseph's rod , heb. 11. 21. pro. he did not ; there is no text of scripture that says he did ; that place which you quote , is plainly perverted ; for the words are , he worshipped upon the top of his staff ; that is , leaning on it ; or that he worshipped leaning towards the beds head ; and therefore st. jerome , whose translation you profess to follow , ( in his questions upon genesis , ) rejecteth that version , which yet you retain : we affirm then still that the saints of god did not worship images . pa. 85. the holy veneration and worship of images have either profited the jews and christians , or they have not . pro. they have not . pa. how then were the israelites healed of the biting of the serpents in the desarts ? pro. not by worshipping any image , no not the brazen serpent ; but by looking on it , thereby exercising their faith on christ whom it was a type of . pa. how then did the primitive christians receive special benefit by venerating the shadow of st. peter , and st. paul ? acts 5. 15. and 19. 11. pro. here again you suppose what is not ; the shadow of st. peter healed many , and so did st. paul , but they did not venerate or worship either their shadow or their persons . pa. 86. it is lawful to bow the knee to images , or it is not . pro. it is not . pa. if not , why doth the apostle say , at the name of jesus every knee shall bow ? phil. 2. 8. which name is nothing else but an image of the hearing . pro. this is as impertinent an argument as ever i heard ; the question is about graven visible material images ; not about images in the hearing ; but pray remember st. paul doth not say , every body shall worship that name : so that it is nothing to your purpose , about visible material images , or worshipping them . of the veneration of reliques . pa. 87. the honour and veneration of the reliques of saints , which god himself hath approved by many famous miracles is good , or it is not . pro. it is . pa. why then do you condemn the veneration of reliques ? pro. because god hath never approved it either by miracles or any other way . pa. 88. that woman which was miraculously cured of the bloody-flux , by only touching the hem of christ's garment , was cured , either for venerating the reliques , ●● she was not . pro. she was not , but for her faith. pa. why then was not she cured afar off ? pro. that is nothing to us ; it is sufficient that it was christs pleasure to have it as it was , and that he tells us it was by faith she was cured , matt. 9. 22. daughter ( saith our saviour ) be of good comfort , thy faith hath made thee whole . pa. 89. the virtue of casting out devils , and curing the diseases , consisted in the napkins and handkerchiefs , that had but touched the body of st. paul , or it did not . pro. i cannot say that it consisted in them : but it was conveighed by them . pa. if it was why do you deny the veneration of reliques . pro. if i should allow that the virtue of doing those miracles did really consist in those napkins , and handkerchiefs , yet cannot an argument be deduc'd from hence that we must worship reliques ; for those napkins and handkerchiefs were never worshipped . pa. 90. the bodies of dead saints have either restored men to life , or they have not . pro. the bodies have not ; but god by the bodies hath pa. if so , then the reliques of saints are worthy to be venerated . pro. i deny that ; by moses's rod , by elizeus's mantle , and his bones , miracles were wrought , yet those reliques were never worshipped . of free will. pa. 91. god either left man to his own free wil●… or he did not . pro. if you speak of the state of man before the fal●… i answer , god did leave him to his own freewill ; but since the fall , i affirm god hath left man to his own fre●… will , as to moral actions , but as to spiritual , he hath no●… so that we do not deny all free will , but only in spiritu●… things . pa. why do you falsify that scripture , eccl. 15. 14. g●… from the beginning made man , and left him in the hand ●● his own counsel . prot. that passage is in ecclesiasticus , not in the canonical scripture , and therefore of no authority in this case ; but if it were , it speaks nothing of free will to spiritual actions in men since the fall ; but of the power which adam had in the beginning . pa , 92. the choice of good and evil is either left in mans free will , or it is not . pro. the whole choice of moral goed and evil is ; but the right acceptable choice of spiritual good is not . pa. why then do you deny that of josh. 24. choose you this day , whom you will serve ? pro. we do not deny it ; but we say that it is nothing to your purpose : seeing to chuse spiritual good or evil is in man's power ; but to chuse it aright is not ; that is , to chuse it from a right principle , and to a right end. pa. why do you deny that , joh. 1. 12. as many as received christ , to them he gave power to become the sons of god. pro. we do not deny it ; but we say that a right choice of spiritual good is not in mans power , and this is clear from this very text ; for receiving christ , follows choosing of him ; but till he gave them more power than they had before , they could not chuse him so as to become the sons of god ; therefore they had no power naturally to chuse him aright : so that this text overthows your selves . pa. 93. man hath power either to keep his virgin , or he hath not . pro. if you mean by that expression what the apostle intends 1 cor. 7. 37. i answer , he hath . pa. why then do you deny free will ? pro. we do not deny free will in moral actions , such as this is , where the apostle is only treating of the power of guaraians , or parents over the virgins under their care ; but that which we deny it in , is spiritual actions , of which , this is no instance . pa. 94. all that god commands , is either in man's free power , or it is not . pro. all that god commands man to do by his own power is ; but all that he commands , such as that precept , thou shalt love the lord thy god with all thy heart , is not . pa. then you condemn god of tyranny , in commanding that which is not in mans free power to do . pro. that doth not follow ; as long as god will enable him to do that , for which his own free power is not sufficient , as in the text you cited just now , joh. 1. 12. to those , whose own power was not sufficient , he gave power to become the sons of god. pa. but is not this as if i should threaten my servant with horrible death , for not bringing me the man in the moon ? pro. no , for if you did so , you would be unjust and tyrannical , seeing your servant could not do it ; neither could you enable him : but god requires nothing but what either man can do , or god will enable him to perform . of faith without works . pa. 95. faith working by charity , either justifies , or it doth not . pro. faith , properly speaking , doth not justify ; but by such a faith we are justified . pa. if so , then your justifying faith flies without wings . pro. i deny that ; for there is no such a thing as a justifying faith without works : we affirm , that no faith is true , but that which worketh by love. pa. 96. a man only saying , lord , lord , either may be saved , or he may not . pro. he may not . pa. if not , then where is your justifying faith ? pro. in the word of god , and the heart of every true believer , who shews his faith by his works . pa. 97. you either hope to be saved by believing in god only without works , or you do not . pro. we do hope to be justified , and consequently saved , by faith in christ only . pa. then the damned spirits may expect salvation , seeing they believe and tremble . pro. that doth not follow : that faith which the damned have is but an historical faith ; but the faith by which we are justifyed , is a faith which purifies the soul , and is productive of good works , which the damned cannot have . we do not then hope to be saved by faith without works , but by faith , and not by works . of the merit of works . pa. 98. every man will be rewarded at the last day according to his works or he will not . pro. he will , pa. if he will , then good works will be meritorious , and receive a good reward . pro. they will receive a reward , which they never deserved , but which by the grace of christ is purchased for and given to them , but not for any merit in them ; but by virtue of his promise and free love , not by way , of debt due to the works . pa. 99. christ either encouraged his apostles to suffer afflictions patiently in expectation of a reward , or he did not . pro. he did . pa. why then were not their persecutions meritorious and consequently our good works . pro. because the reward is not given to the desert of their works , which bear proportion with the greatness of the reward ; but it comes only from the pure mercy and grace of god , and if our good works give us any title to that reward , it is not from themselves but the promise . pa. 100. that crown of justice which st. paul said was laid up for himself , was either the reward of his good fight , or it was not . pro. it was . pa. if it was , how can you deny the merit of good works ? pro. because that reward was not merited by his good fight , but purely given to him , out of grace . pa. 101. a cup of cold water given in the name of a disciple , is either meritorious , or it is not . pro. it is not . pa. why is it said then , mat. 10. 42. that he who gives it , shall in no wise lose his reward ? pro. he shall not lose the promised reward : but who at is this to deserving that which free grace had promised ? of holy and religious vows . pa. 102. the sacred vows which are taught us in the holy scripture are lawful , or they are not . pro. they are . pa. why then is not a vow lawful to us ? pro. a vow is lawful to us ; we do not deny it , but the question is about some particular vows , which we say are unlawful . pa. 103. the greatest perfection of a christian life consists in evangelical poverty , or it doth not . pro. it doth . pa. why then do you reject the vow of poverty as an humane invention ? pro. because god hath no where warranted it , the evangelical poverty , which so much perfects a christian is not to renounce all worldly goods , but to be poor in spirit , and to be able in the midst of plenty to despise the world , and its riches . pa. if it be not the greatest perfection to renounce the world wholly , then why did our saviour say to the young-man , mat. 19. 21. sell all that thou hast , and give it to the poor ? pro. our saviour did not there give a precept , so to do , only to the youngman of whom he required it by way of trial , because he knew his heart was set upon his riches . pa. 104. it either was a vertue in eunuchs , who gelded themselves for the kingdom of heaven , or it was not . pro. that is according as you take the last words for the kingdom of heavens sake ; if to avoid a present violent temptation it be done , we must commend it ; but if upon mature deliberation it be done , when they might have recourse to marriage , it is not well done . pa. why do you condemn that of st. matt. 19. 12. there are some who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heavens sake ? pro. vve do not condemn the text ; but your exposition of it ; for it is doubtful on what account those our saviour speaks of there , were eunuchs , or whether they were so actually , or only in design ; but take it in which sence you will , we do not find our saviour commends it ; and it is nothing to that slavish vow which you require . pa. he who resolves in his heart to keep his virgin , either doth well , or not . 1 cor. 7. 37. pro. he doth well . pa. why then do you deny the holy vow of continency . pro. vve condemn that vow which you call holy , because it is no where warranted in the word of god , that place of the apostle speaks not of any vow , but if it did , it speaks not of personal continency , but of the power of a guardian or father , in marrying or not marrying the virgins under their care. pa. 105. we ought either to obey our prelates and superiours , or we ought not . pro. we ought in all lawful things . pa. why then do you reject the vow of obedience , as a popish fiction ? pro. we do not reject all vows of obedience , but such as are purely popish ; and these we condemn because the matter of them is unlawful , not because all vows of obedience are so . pa. our saviour in obedience to st. joseph and the blessed virgin , either gave us an example of obedience , or he did not . pro. he did , of obedience to our parents . pa. if he did , then the vow of obedience is evident to be a pious action by christs own example pro. we do not condemn all vows of obedience in general , ( though if we had no other reason to allow them , but this example , we should reject them ; for christ here made no vow , and his obedience was to his parents , not to superiour degrees in the church ) but yours we do because of the matter of it , which you must prove to be good , by examining the particulars ; not by such general arguments as these . of the possibility of keeping the commandments . pa. 106. a man being assisted by the special grace of god , can either keep the commandments of god , or he cannot . pro. he can . pa. why do you then deny the possibility of keeping the commandments . pro. we do not deny it , we say it is not only possible ; but necessary that we should keep all the commandments of god ; but we deny that we can keep them perfectly , that is , that we can arrive to that degree of perfection , as to observe them to the highest pitch , without any defect in the manner of the observation : this we say , none on this side heaven can do . pa. 107. it is either impossible with man to keep the commandments or it is not . pro. to keep them perfectly with a perfection of degrees is impossible . pa. why do you then accuse god of commanding impossibilities ? pro. we do not : god commands nothing but what we must perform , we must keep the commandments perfectly , as to all the parts of them ; but as to the degrees , by reason of our natural corruption we cannot do it , but christ our surety hath done it for us . pa. hearers of the law only are justified , or they are not . pro. bare hearers are not . pa. if not , then the fulfilling of the law is necessary . pro. that doth not follow : the doing of it is necessary , rom. 2. 13. but for the fulfilling it as to the degrees of it that is no where required pa. 108. god according to his promise , either enabled man to keep his commandments , or he did not . pro. god enables a man to do whatever he promises to assist him to do . pa. why then do you deny in man the possibility of keeping the commandments ? pro. we only deny the possibility of keeping them perfectly with a perfection of degrees , and god hath never promised to enable man to do it . all his promises are , that he will enable him to keep them so , as shall please him ; but here is nothing of keeping them perfectly . pa. 109. it is evident in holy writ , that some either keep the commandments , or they do not . pro. none keep them with such a perfection as i mentioned . pa. why do you belye that of st. john 1. 6. zacharias and elizabeth were both just before god , walking in all the commandments , and were justified without blame . pro. that text is not in st. john , but in st. luke , 1. 6. and is not as you read it , they were justified without blame , but they walked in all the commandments and ordinances of the lord , blameless , or without blame : now this text we do not bely , but we desire you to consider that st. luke only says , they were blameless , not perfect , they were blameless , that is , they were so holy , that no person could find fault with them . he had spoken of their holiness with reference to god before , and he speaks now of their reputation among men ; but this is nothing to the keeping the commandments perfectly , with such a perfection as we deny . of the seven sacraments . pa. 110. christ for the sanctification of mankind , either instituted seven visible signs of invisible graces or he did not . pro. he did not . pa. if he did not , answer me to these following prepositions , viz. baptism is either a sacrament , or it is not . pro. it is . pa. 111. then we are agreed in that point ; but confirmation is either a sacrament , or it is not . pro. it is not . pa. if not , why hath it the visible sign , viz. oyl and balm ? pro. it hath no such sign of christs institution , which is requisite in a sacrament , but only of your own invention . pa. see act. 19. 5 , 6. and when paul had imposed his hands upon them , the holy ghost came upon them . and acts 8. 14 , 15 , 16. st. peter and st. john did impose their hands upon them , and they received the holy ghost . pro. these texts speak not a word of oyl , or balm , practised by the apostles , but of the laying on of hands . your confirmation therefore is no sacrament , seeing there is no warrant of christ for the outward sign , nor any divine promise to annex an invisible grace to it . pa. 112. the eucharist either is a sacrament , or it is not . pro. it is . pa. then the controversy in this point is ended . but to go on , 113. penance either is a sacrament , or it is not . pro. it is not . pa. if not , why hath it the visible sign , viz. the penitent's confession , and the priest's absolution , of an invisible grace , which is the remission of sins ? pro. there are no such signs instituted by christ , for confession to a priest is no where commanded as i shew'd before : and absolution is only a part of discipline , and therefore can be no part of a sacrament : besides , here is no outward and visible sign , which must be in a sacrament , for the words of absolution are the form of the sacrament , according to the council of trent , now the outward sign is never the form of a sacrament : the matter of this pretended sacrament being as i shewed no where commanded by christ , it can be no sacrament . pa. 115. extream unction either is a sacrament , or it is not . pro. it is not . pa. why then hath it the visible sign , the priests prayer , ●nd the anointing with oyl , of an invisible grace , james 13 , 14 , 15 ? pro. it hath no sign of an invisible grace , st. james ●n that place speaks of it as a means to heal the sick , but ●hat is no invisible grace ; therefore it is no sacrament : whether that rite be still to be retained is another question , and not to our purpose . pa. 116. holy order either is a sacrament , or it is not pro. it is not . pa. why then hath it the visible sign , the words of the bishop , and the things given to him that is ordained , of an invisible grace ? according to that , 1 tim. 4. 14. neglect not the grace that is in thee by prophecy with imposition of hands of the priesthood . pro. it hath no such visible sign instituted by christ , which we challenge you to prove ; therefore 't is no sacrament , and neither is there any grace given by it , though gifts are indeed bestowed : so that you have falsifyed that text of st. paul , which is not , neglect not the grace that is in thee , but neglect not the gift : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , now there is a great difference between a gift and a grace . pa. 117. matrimony either is a sacrament , or it is not . pro. it is not . pa. if not , why hath it a visible sign , the mutual consent of both parties , an invisible grace and supernatural conjunction made by almighty god ? matt. 19. 6. eph. 5. 31 , 32. pro. the mutual consent is no visible sign , but an invisible action ; neither is there any supernatural grace given by it , for none of those texts you cite , mentions any such thing : that of eph. 5. you have fassified , st. paul says not , it is a sacrament , but a mystery , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 118. a visible sign of an invisible grace , divinely instituted by christ , either is the true definition of a sacrament , or it is not . pro. it is not . pa. then you deny the definition which your selves attribute to a sacrament . pro. you are mistaken , for that is only a part of the definition ; we say that a sacrament must be not only an outward and visible sign of an inward and spritual grace , ordained by christ ; but it must also be a means whereby we receive the same , and a pledge to assure us of it : now seeing your pretended sacraments have neither outward signs instituted by christ , nor invisible graces annexed to them , and conveyed by them , we reject them and assert they are no sacraments . pa. 119. baptism and the lords supper is either more evidently said in scripture , than any of the other five to be sacraments , or they are not . pro. the word sacrament is no where used in scripture , and therefore baptism is no where called a sacrament , nor the lords supper : but in scripture we find the outward and visible sign of baptism ordained by christ ; and the invisible grace annexed to it , and conveyed by it , and so of the lords supper ; but we find no such thing of the other five : now seeing nothing can be a sacrament but what hath such a sign with a grace annexed , and baptism and the lords supper have them ; we say they are sacraments , and when you shew us the same in scripture of the rest , we will receive them for such : it is therefore impertinent to ask us where baptism is called a sacrament , for we don't contend about a word ; but the question is whether confirmation , pennance , extream unction , orders and marriage be ordinances of the same nature with baptism and the eucharist : this we deny , and we are sure you cannot prove . appendix . pa. 120. your church either hath her succession from the waldenses , &c. or she hath not . pro. if you mean her succession of pastors , she hath not . pa. if not , then you must have no succession , unless it be from the roman church . pro. that part of our church which in opposition to rome is termed the reformed , had its immediate succession from the church in communion with rome . pa. 121. luther and calvin either had their mission from the roman church , or they had not ? pro. they had . pa. if they had , the roman church either had the spirit of god when they gave them that mission , or she had not . pro. she had the spirit of god , as much as was necessary for that power of giving them their mission . pa. if they had , how could she fall into errors ? and why did they depart from the spirit of god ? pro. they did not depart from the spirit of god : and that portion of the spirit which she for that end had in ordination , is only a power given by the spirit , and therefore no security from error , seeing all hereticks have so much of the spirit . pa. either they had their mission from god , or they had not . pro. they had . pa. if they had , why did not they confirm their doctrine by miracles ? pro. because christ and his apostles had done it before and seeing they preached no new doctrine , there was no need of them . pa. 122. luther and calvins doctrine either was manifested to be true by miracles , or it was not . pro. it was not by any miracles wrought by them : but by the miracles of christ and his apostles it was . pa. if they did no miracles , then seeing you cannot alledge any text of sacred writ to vindicate their tenets , you must of necessity have recourse to the private spirit . pro. are not you ashamed of such an argument ? when you know we produce texts , plain texts of scripture for every one of our doctrines , and we found them upon nothing else ; and for the private spirit , it is a thing we know not , neither do you know what you mean by it , we renounce any such thing : but the assistance of the spirit of god we own and pray for . pa. 123. the apostles either had the private spirit , or they had not . pro. what you mean by the private spirit , is best known to your self : but that assistance of the holy spirit which we hope for , and god hath promised , they had . pa. if they had , why then did they call a council ? acts 19. pro. i appeal to your self , whether that is an argument that they had not even a greater , viz. an infallible assistance of the spirit attending every one in particular , which if they had , you cannot deny them the assistance we plead for . pa. 24. your private spirit either is of god , or it is not . pro. the assistance of the holy spirit promised an● given to every private man , who seeks it with humility and prayers , is of god. pa. why then are there so many disagreeing sects among you ? pro. there are no disagreeing sects among us in matters of faith , in which alone the assistance of the holy spirit is given . pa. 125. a man endowed with your private spirit either can interpret scripture , or he cannot . pro. a man endowed with the spirit of god ( which in the only assisting spirit ) can interpret scripture aright . pa. if they can , what need have you of preachers ? pro. to instruct the ignorant , to convince the erroneous , to stir up the negligent , to excite the slothful , to comfort the broken-hearted , and administer the holy sacraments . pa. but after all , no man will believe any thing but what his spirit suggests unto him . pro. no man ought to believe any thing but what the spirit of god suggests unto him , either by the scriptures , the law of nature , or internal convictions ; for which he makes use of ministers as the means . finis . postscript . i desire the gentlemen against whom i write , would deal so fairly with me ; as to let me and the world know what scandals and calumnies they aim at in their caution to their adversaries , and who they are , who they say could never learn to speak or write truth , and what those sores are which they threaten to rip up ; a few words will explain their meaning , which is there a little dark . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a66243-e300 qu. 1. 41 5. qu. 5. 41. 46. 111. qu. 37 , 40 , 46 , 47 , 50 , &c. qu. 54. 55. 64. 89. qu. 66. 93. 95. 96. 97. 102. 103. 104. 117. 84. qu. 11. you take universal for being in all places . qu. 12. you take it for being existent at all times , &c. qu. 13. you take it for being called universal . notes for div a66243-e2050 acts 16. seek and ye shall find . epist. ded. a reply to mr. j.s. his 3d. appendix containing some animadversions on the book entituled, a rational account of the grounds of protestant religion. by ed. stillingfleet b.d. stillingfleet, edward, 1635-1699. 1666 approx. 147 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 64 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-08 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a61594 wing s5630 estc r34612 99834099 99834099 38584 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a61594) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 38584) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2063:36) a reply to mr. j.s. his 3d. appendix containing some animadversions on the book entituled, a rational account of the grounds of protestant religion. by ed. stillingfleet b.d. stillingfleet, edward, 1635-1699. [2], 116, [8] p. printed by r.w. for henry mortlock at the sign of the phœnix in st. paul's church-yard near the little north-door, london : 1666. a reply to: sergeant, john. sure-footing in christianity. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng sergeant, john, 1622-1707. -sure-footing in christianity. catholic church -controversial literature -early works to 1800. protestantism -apologetic works -early works to 1800. 2004-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-03 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-04 john latta sampled and proofread 2004-04 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a reply to mr. j. s. his 3 d. appendix , containing some animadversions on the book entituled , a rational account of the grounds of protestant religion . by ed. stillingfleet b. d. london , printed by r. w. for henry mortlock at the sign of the phoenix in st. pauls church-yard near the little north-door . 1666. an appendix to the rule of faith . to his honoured friend mr. john tillotson . sir , as soon as i understood your intentions to answer mr. serjeant , i could not but rejoyce on his behalf , as well as on the truths and your own . for i have that real kindness for him , that i heartily wish him that reason and science he pretends to ; which i could not but despair of his attaining , unless he were undeceived in that monstrous opinion he hath of himself and his undertakings . and i knew no person more fit then you , to let him understand the tr̄uth and himself together . in which , your performances have been so clear and satisfactory , that i hope mr. serjeant in stead of another letter of directions to his answerer , will write you one of thanks , for the reason and kindness you have shewed him throughout your book . unless it fares with you , as it hath done with some other adversaries of theirs , that their civility hath been interpreted as an argument of their uncertainty , and their own confidence cried up for a demonstration . in which sense only i shall grant our protestant writer● to build on uncertainties , and mr. white and mr. serjeant to be the great demonstrators of this age . if their own reason had been as severe as the censures at rome against them , they had saved us the labour of any answer , and would have found out their own sophistry without a confutation . but the least thing we can imagine by their excessive confidence , is , that they are deceived themselves ; and therefore i● is a part of charity to them as well a● justice to the truth , to let the world ●e , that big words are quite another ●ing from science , and a strong pre●mption from a regular demonstra●on . as to which , no more need to ●ve been said , than what you have al●ady done , if mr. serjeant had not ●ought it an accession to the glory of ●s atchievements , to lead two pages ●f my book in triumph after him . i ●nfess i was somewhat surprised to see person who would be noted for his ●lour in assaulting protestant writers , ●eal so behind the main bulk and design ●f my book , and when he had gotten ●o single pages by themselves , fall ●pon them with as much pomp and ●tentation , as if he had attacqu'd the ●hole . and this must be noised abroad an answer to me , by the same figure ●at his arguments are called demon●rations , which is by an hyperbole un● for any , but such who never flag be●w the sphere of science in their own ●dgements , though they seem not to ●ome near it in others . yet since ●r . serjeant is not only pleased to ●ncern himself so far as to answer that ●rt of my book relating to oral tradition , but in most express terms t● challenge me to reply to him , he ma● now see ( assoon as i could get any liberty from greater imployments ) ho● ready i am to give him all reasonabl● satisfaction . and in the first place return him thanks for the weapon h● hath made choice of , viz. that of re●son ; there being no other , i desire t● make use of in managing this deba● between us : and i hope he will find much civility towards him througho● this discourse , as he exptesses towar● me in the entrance to his ; if that m● be accounted any real civility which intended meerly out of design wi● the greater advantage to disparage t● cause i have undertaken , and yet ● no reason to repent of . if in his curs● view of two chapters of my book he h● ( as he saith ) quite lost me , he had no ca● to be troubled for it , if he had fou● far more excellent persons , such dr. hammond , and the dissuader , a● dr. pierce instead of me . but to sure he intends not this in honour any of us , but by way of a comm● reproach to us all , as though we did talk out of nature or things , but wo● and imagination . i could heartily have wished mr. s. would have cropt so much of the victory due to anothers learning and industry , as to have shewed me one proposition in those discourses , which a rational understanding that would be true to it self , could not settle or rely on ; but if such insinuations as these must pass for answers , i must needs say , i judge mr. s. equally happy in confuting our grounds , and in demonstrating his own ; in both which , his greatest strength lies in the self-evidence of his bare affirmations . but it seems he is willing to resign the glory of this victory to the judicious author of labyrinthus cantuariensis , or to some others for him ; and when they have once obtained it , i shall not envy them the honour of it . and i suppose those persons , whoever they are , may be able by this time , to tell mr. s. it is an easier matter to talk of victories than to get them . but if they do no more in the whole , than mr. s. hath done for his share , they will triumph nowhere , but where they conquer , viz. in their own fancies and imaginations . therefore leaving them to their silent conquests , and as yet , unheard of victories , we come to mr. s. who so liberally proclaims his own in the point of oral tradition . which ( in a phrase scarce heard of in our language before ) is the post , he tells us , he hath taken upon him to explicate further and defend . what the explicating a post means , i as little understand , as i do the force of his demonstrations ; but this , and many other such uncouth forms of speech , up and down in his book , ( which make his style so smooth and easie ) are i suppose intended for embellishments of our tongue , and as helps to sure-speaking , as his whole book is designed for sure-footing . but letting him enjoy the pleasure and felicity of his own , expressions , i come to consider the matter in debate between us . and his first controversie with me , is , for opposing the infallibility of oral tradition , to doctrinal infallibility in pope and councils . a controversie fitter to be debated among themselves , than between him and me : for is any thing more notorious , than that infallibility is by the far greatest part of romanists attributed to the present church in teaching and delivering matters of faith , not by vertue of any oral tradition , but the immediate assistance of the holy ghost : and that this is made by them the only ground of divine faith ? for which mr. s. may if he please , consult his judicious author of labyrinthus cantuariensis , or any other of their present writers , except mr. white and himself . he need not therefore have been to seek for the meaning of this doctrinal infallibility as opposed to traditionary , if he had not either been ignorant of the opinion of their own writers , or notoriously dissembled it . for this infallibility is not attributed to the rulers of the church , meerly as doctors or scholars , but as the representative church whose office it is to deliver all matters of faith by way of an infallible testimony to every age , and thereby to afford a sufficient foundation for divine faith . but mr. s. attributes no such infallibility to the representative church , as teaching the rest , but derives their infallibility from such grounds as are common to all parts of the essential church . wherein he apparently opposes himself to the whole current of their own authors , whe resolve all faith into the immediate assistance of the holy ghost , without which they assert there could be no infallibility at all in tradition or any thing else ; and therefore these opinions are as opposite to each other as may be . for such an infallibility is not attributed by them to the teachers of the church , meerly on some signal occasions , as mr. s. seems to suppose , when they are to explain new matters of faith ; but it is made by them to be as necessary as believing it self , because thereby the only sure foundation of faith is laid , and therefore it is very evident they make it proper to the church in all ages : or else in some age of the church men were destitute of sufficient grounds of faith . for they by no means think it a sufficient foundation for faith , that one age of the church could not conspire to deceive another ; for this they will tell him at most is but a humane faith ; but that christ by his promise hath assured the church that there shall never be wanting in it the infallible assistance of his holy spirit , whereby they shall infallibly teach & deliver all matters of faith . and if this be not their opinion , let them speak to the contrary , which if they do , i am sure they must retract their most elaborate discourses about the resolution of faith written by the greatest artists among them . let mr. s. then judge who it is that stumbles at the threshold : but of this difference among them more afterwards . by this it appears it was not on any mistake that i remained unsatisfied in the question i asked , whether am i bound to believe what the present church delivers to be infallible ? to which mr. s. answers , i understand him not . my reply shall be only that of a great lawyers in a like case , i cannot help that . i am sure my words are intelligible enough ; for i take infallible there as he takes it himself , for infallibly true ; although i deny not the word to be improperly used in reference to things ; and that for the reason given by him , because fallibility and infallibility belong to the knowing power , or the persons that have it , and not to the object . but we are often put to the use of that word in a sense we acknowledge improper , meerly in complyance with our adversaries , who otherwise are apt to charge us with having only uncertainties and probabilities for our faith , if we do not use the term infallible as applyed to the truth of the thing . i am content therefore wherever , in what i have writ , he meets that term so applyed , that he take it only in his own sense , for that which is certainly true ; for i mean no more by it . and in this sense mr. s. answers affirmatively ; and gives this account of it , not only because the present church cannot be deceived in what the church of the former age believed , but because the church in no age could conspire against her knowledge to deceive that age immediately following in matter of fact evident in a manner to the whole world . the question then is , whether this be a sufficient account for me to believe that to be certainly true , or to be the doctrine of christ and his apostles , which the present church delivers ? and consequently whether the resolution of faith be barely into oral tradition ? thus we see the clear state of the question between us . i come therefore to the vindication of those things which i had objected against this way of resolving faith into oral tradition . three things i especially insisted on . 1. that it is inconsistent with the pretensions of the present roman church . 2. that it hath not been the way owned in all ages of the christian church . 3. that it is repugnant to common sense and experience , and that the church of rome hath apparently altered from what was the belief of former ages . if these three be made good , there will be no cause to glory in this last invention to support the sinking fabrick of that church . these three then i undertake to defend against what mr. serjeant hath objected against them . 1. that it is contrary to the pretensions of the present roman church . and if it be so , there can be no reason for those who are of it , to rely upon it . for if so be that church pretends that the obligation to faith arises from a quite different ground from this ; how can they who believe that church infallible , venture their faith upon any other principle than what is publikly owned by her ? and whosoever thinks himself bound to believe by virtue of an infallible assistance of the present church , doth thereby shew that his obligation doth not depend upon what was delivered by the former ages of the church . as those who believed the apostles were infallible in their doctrine , could not resolve their faith into the infallibility of oral tradition , but into that immediate assistance by which the apostles spake ; and where there is a belief of a like assistance , the foundation of faith cannot lie in the indefectibility of tradition , but in that infallible spirit which they suppose the church to be assisted by . for supposing this oral tradition should fail , and that men might believe that it had actually failed , yet if the former supposition were true , there was sufficient ground for faith remaining still . and what assurance can any one have that the present church delivers nothing for matter of faith but what hath been derived in every age from christ and his apostles , if such an infallible spirit be supposed in the present church which was in the apostles themselves ? for on the same reason that those who heard the apostles were not bound to trouble themselves with the tradition of the former age ; no more ought they who believe the present roman church to have the same infallible assistance . they need not then enquire whether this age knew the meaning of the former , or whether one age could conspire to deceive another , or whether notwithstanding both these , errours might not come into the church ; it is sufficient for them that the definitions of the present church are infallible in all matters of faith . therefore my demand was built on very good reason ; how can you assure me the present church obliges me to believe nothing but only what , and so far as it received from the former church ? and mr. s's answer is far from being satisfactory , that this appears by her manifect practice , never refusing communion to any man , that could approve himself to believe all the former age did . for this may be resolved into a principle far different from this , which is the belief of the infallibility of the present church . for supposing that , they are not bound to enquire themselves into the reasons why the tradition could not faile in any age ; it is sufficient for them to believe the church infallible ; and if it be so , in proposing matters of faith , it must be so in declaring what the belief of the former age was . but my demands go on , what evidence can you bring to convince me both that the church alwayes observed this rule , and could never be deceived in it ? which question is built on these two principles which the infallibility of oral tradition stands on . 1. that the church must alwayes go upon this ground . 2. that if it did so , it is impossible she should be deceived . both which are so far from that self-evidence which mr. serjeant still pretends to in this way , that the jesuits principles seem much more rational and consistent , than these do . for granting them but that one postulatum , that there must be an inherent infallibility in the testimony of the present church to afford sufficient foundation for divine faith , all the rest of their doctrine follows naturally from it . whereas this new way of resolving faith is built on such suppositions , which no man well in his wits will be ready to grant . for unless it be self-evident that the church did alwayes proceed on this ground , it cannot be self-evident that oral tradition is infallible ; because the self-evidence of this principle depends on this , that in all ages of the church , the only rule and measure of faith was , what was delivered by oral tradition from the age foregoing . now if it be possible that matters of faith might be conveyed in wayes quite different from this , what self-evidence can there be that the church must alwayes proceed upon this ? mr. s. then , must demonstrate it impossible for matters of faith to be conveyed to posterity in any other way than oral tradition ; and not only that the thing is impossible , but that the church in all ages judged it to be so ; or else he can never make it at all evident that the church alwayes made this her rule of faith . but if either there may be a certain conveyance of the doctrine of faith another way , viz. by writing , or that the church might judge that way more certain , whether it were so or not , either way it will appear far enough from self-evidence that she alwayes judged of doctrines of faith , meerly by the tradition of the preceding age . if another way be granted possible , there must be clear demonstration , that the church notwithstanding this , did never make use of it ; for if it did make use of another way of resolving faith in any age of the church , then in that age of the church oral tradition was not looked on as the ground of faith ; and if so , notwithstanding what ever mr. s. can demonstrate to the contrary , that age might have believed otherwise that the immediately preceding did . for let us but suppose tha● all necessary doctrines of faith , were betimes recorded in the church in books universally received by the christians of the first ages ; is it no● possible that age which first embrace● these books , might deliver them to posterity as the rule of their faith and so down from one age to another and doth it not hence follow that the rule of saith is quite different from ● meer oral tradition ? let mr. s. the● either shew it impossible that the doctrines of faith should be written ; or that being written , they should be universally received ; or that being universally received in one age , they ●hould not be delivered to the next ; ●r being delivered to the next , those ●ooks should not be looked on as con●aining the rule of faith in them ; or ●hough they were so , yet that still oral ●adition was wholly relyed on as the ●ule of faith ; & then i shall freely grant ●●at mr. s. hath attempted something ●●wards the proof of this new hypothe● . but as things now stand it is so far ●om being self-evident that the church ●ath alwayes gone upon this princi●e , that we find it looked on as a great ●ovelty among them in their own ●hurch ; and it would be a rare thing ●r a new invention to have been the ●nse of the church in all ages ; which it hath not been , the strength of it is ●ereby taken away . but let us suppose that the church ●d proceed upon this principle , that ●thing was to be embraced , but what 〈◊〉 derived by tradition from the a●tles ; how doth it thence follow that nothing could be admitted into th● church but what was really so derive● from them ? do we not see in th● world at this day , that among tho● who own this principle , contradicto● propositions are believed ; and bo● sides tell us it is on this account , b● cause their doctrine was delivered ● the apostles ? doth not the greek chur● profess to believe on the account tradition from the apostles as well the latin ? if that tradition failed the greek church which was preserv● in the latin , either mr. s. must i●stance on his own principles in th● age which conspired to deceive t● next , or he must acknowledge t● while men own tradition they may deceived in what the foregoing ● taught them ; and consequently th● things may be admitted as doctri● coming from the apostles which w● not so , and some which did may lost , and yet the pretence of tradit● remain still . what self-evidence t● can there be in this principle , w● two parts of the church may b● own it , and yet believe contradicti● on the account of it ? it is then wo● our enquiring what self-evidence this is which mr. s. speaks so much of , which is neither more nor less , but that men in all ages had eyes , ears , and other ●enses , also common reason , and as much memory as to remember their own names and frequently inculcated actions . which ●s so very re●sonable a postulatum , that suppose none who enjoy any of these will deny it . let us therefore see how ●he proceeds upon it . if you disprove ●his , i doubt we have lost mankind , the ●bject we speak of ; and till you disprove ●t , neither i , nor any man in his wits can doubt that this rule depending on testify●ng , that is sense on experience , can possibly ●ermit men to be deceivable . big words in●eed : but such as evidence that all men who are in their wits do not constantly 〈◊〉 them . for i pray sir , what doth mr. s. think of the greek church ? ●ad not those in it eyes , ears and other ●●ses , as well as in the latin ? do not they pretond and appeal to what they ●eceived from their fore-fathers as well ●s the latins ? it seems then a decepti● is possible in the case of testifying , 〈◊〉 therefore this doth more than per●●● men to be decievable ; for here hath been an actual deception on one side or other . but we need not fear losing mankind in this ; for the possibility o● errour supposeth mankind to continue still ; and if we take away that , we m●● sooner lose it than by the contrary . but what repugnancy can we imagine to humane nature , that me● supposing doctrines of faith to come down from christ or his apostles , should yet mistake in judging what those doctrines are ? had not men eyes and ears , and common sense in christ and the apostles times ? and yet we see eve● then the doctrine of christ was mistaken ; and is it such a wonder it should be in succeeding ages ? did not the nazarenes mistake in point of circumcision , the corinthians as to the resurrection , and yet the mean time agree i● this , that christs doctrine was the rule of faith , or that they ought to believe nothing but what came from him ? di● not the disciples themselves err , eve● while they were with christ , and certainly had eyes and ears , an● 〈◊〉 sense as other men have , concern●●●me great articles of christian faith , christs passion , resurrection , and the nat● . of his kingdom ? if then such who had the greatest opportunities imaginable , and the highest apprehensions of christ , might so easily mistake in points of such moment , what ground have we to believe that succeeding ages should not be lyable to such misapprehensions ? and it was not meerly the want of clear divine revelation which was the cause of their mistakes ; for these things were plain enough to persons not possessed with prejudices ; but those were so strong as to make them apprehend things quite another way than they ought to do . so it was then , and so it was in succeeding ages ; for ●et parents teach what they pleased for matters of faith , yet prejudice and ●yableness to mistake in children might easily make them misapprehend either the nature or weight of the doctrines delivered to them . so that setting aside a certain way of recording the matters of faith in the books of scripture , and these preserved entire in every age , it is an easie matter to conceive how in a short time christian religion would have been corrupted as much as ever any was in the world . for when we consider how much notwithstanding scripture , the pride , passion , and interests of men have endeavoured to deface christian religion in the world , what would not these have done if there had been no such certain rule to judge of it by ? mr. s. imagin● himself in repub . platonis ; but it appear● he is still in faece romuli ; he fancies there never were , nor could be any differences among christians ; and that all christians made it their whole business to teach their posterity matters o● faith , and that they minded nothing in the world but the imprinting tha● on their minds that they might have i● ready for their children ; and that al● parents had equal skill and sidelit● in delivering matters of religion t● their posterity . whereas in truth w● find in the early ages of the christia● church several differences about matters of faith , and these differences continued to posterity , but all parties stil● pleading that their doctrine came fro● the apostles ; & it fell out unhappily for mr. s. that those were commonly most grossly deceived who pretended the most to oral tradition from the apostles ; still we find the grand debate was what came from the apostles , and what not ? whereas had tradition been so infallible a way of conveying , how could this ever have come into debate among them ? what , did not they know what their parents taught them ? it seems they did not , or their parents were no more agreed than themselves ; for their differences could never be ended this way . afterwards came in for many ages such a succession of ignorance and barbarism , that christian religion was little minded either by parents or children as it ought to have been ; instead of that , some fopperies and superstitions were hugely in request , and the men who fomented these things were cryed up as great saints and workers of miracles . so that the miracles of s. francis and s. dominick were as much if not more carefully conveyed from parents to children in that age than those of christ and his apostles ; and on this account posterity must be equally bound to believe them , and have their persons in equal veneration . if men at last were grown wiser , it was because they did not believe mr. s's . principles , that they ought to receive what was delivered by their parents ; but they began to search and enquire into the writings of former ages , and to examine the opinions and practices of the present with those of the primitive church , and by this means there came a restauration of learning and religion together . but though matters of fact be plain and evident in this case , yet m. s. will prove it impossible there should any errours come into the christian church ; and his main argument is this , because no age of the church could conspire against her knowledge to deceive that age immediately following in matter of fact evident in a manner to the whole world . but before i come more particularly to shew the weakness of this argument , by manifesting how errours might come into the church without such a conspiracy as this is , i shall propound some queries to him . 1. what age of the church he will instance in wherein all persons who were not cast out of the church , had the same apprehensions concerning all points of faith ? i. e. that none among them did believe more things delivered by christ or the apostles than others did . i am sure he can neither instance in the age of the apostles themselves , nor in those immediately succeeding them ; unless mr. s. the better to defend his hypothesis will question all written records because they consist of dead letters , and unsenc't characters , and wordish testimonies . never considering that while he utters this , he writes himself ; unless he imagins there is more of life , sense and certainty in his books , than in the scriptures or any other writing whatsoever . 2. where there were different apprehensions in one age of the church , whether there must not be different traditions in the next ? for as he looks on all parents as bound to teach their children , so on children as bound to believe what their parents teach them . on which supposition different traditions in the succeeding age must needs follow different apprehensions in the precedent . 3. whether persons agreeing in the substance of doctrines may not differ in their apprehensions of the necessity of them ? as for instance , all may agree in the article of christs descent into hell , but yet may differ in the explication of it , and in the apprehension of the necessity of it in order to salvation . so that we must not only in tradition about matters of faith enquire what was delivered , but under what notion it was delivered ; whether as an allowable opinion , or a necessary point of faith ; but if several persons , nay multitudes in the church may have different notions as to the necessity of the same points , by what means shall we discern what was delivered as an opinion in the church , and what as an article of faith ? but mr. s. throughout his discourse takes it for granted that there is the same necessity of believing and delivering all things which concern the christian doctrine ; and still supposes the same sacredness , concern , necessity , in delivering all the points in controversie between the romanists and us , as there was in those main articles of faith , which they and we are agreed in . which is so extravagant a supposition that it is hard to conceive it should ever enter into the head of a person pretending to reason ; but as extravagant as it is , it is that without which his whole fabrick falls to the ground . for suppose we should grant him that the infinite errors which depend on the belief of the christian doctrine should be of so prevalent nature with the world , that it is impossible to conceive any one age should neglect the knowing them , or conspire to deceive the next age about them ; yet what is all this to the matters in difference between us ? will mr. s. prove the same sacredness , necessity , concern , and miraculously attestedness ( as he phrases it ) in the invocation of saints , purgatory , transubstantiation , supremacy , &c. as in the believing the death and resurrection of the son of god : if he doth not prove this , he doth nothing ; for his arguments may hold for doctrines judged universally necessary , but for no other . therefore mr. s. hath a new task which he thought not of ; which is , to manifest that these could not be looked on as opinions , but were embraced as necessary articles of faith , for unless he proves them such , he can neither prove any obligation in parents to teach them their children , nor in children to believe what their parents taught , but only to hold them in the same degree which they did themselves . when mr. s. will undertake to prove that the whole church from the time of christ did agree in the points in difference between us , as necessary articles of faith , i may more easily believe that no age could be ignorant of them , or offer to deceive the next about them . but when mr. s. reflects on his frequent concession that there are private opinions in the church , distinct from matters of faith , he must remember before he can bring home his grounds to the case between their church and ours , that he must prove none of the things in debate , were ever entertained as private opinions , and that it is impossible for that which was a private opinion in one age , to become a matter of faith in the next . but because this distinction of his ruines his whole demonstration , i shall ●irst propound it in his own terms , and ●hen shew how from thence it follows , ●hat errors may come into the church , and be entertained as matters of faith . his words are , it being evident , that we have but two wayes of ordinary know●edge , by acts of our soul , or operations ●n our body ; that is by reason and expe●ience ; the former of which belongs to ●peculators or doctors , the second to de●iverers of what was received , or testi●iers . and this distinction he frequent●y admits , not only in the present age of the church , but in any ; for the same reason will hold in all . from ●ence i propose several queries further to mr. s. 1. if every one in the church●ooked ●ooked on himself as bound to believe ●ust as the precedent age did , whence came any to have particular opinions of their own ? for either the church●ad ●ad delivered her sense in that case or not ; if not , then tradition is no certain conveyer of the doctrine of christ ; ●f she had , then those who vented private speculations were hereticks in so doing ; because they opposed that doctrine which the church received from christ and his apostles . if mr. s. replie● that private speculations are in such case● where there is no matter of faith at all he can never be able to help himsel● by that distinction in the case of hi● own church ; for i demand , whether i● it a matter of faith , that men ought to believe oral tradition infallible ? i● not , how can men ground their faith upon it ? if it be , then either some are meer speculators in matters of faith ; or all who believe on the account o● the popes infallibility are hereticks for so doing . 2. if there were speculators in former ages as well as this , whether did those men believe their own speculations or no ? if not , then the father● were great impostors who vented those speculations in the church which they did not believe themselves ; and it i● plain mr. s. speaks of such opinions which the asserters of , do firmly believe to be true : and if they did , then they look on themselves as bound to believe something which was not founded on the tradition of the church ; and consequently did not own oral tradition , as the rule of faith . so that as many speculators as we find in the church , so many testifiers we have against the in●libility of oral tradition . 3. whether those persons who did themselves believe those opinions to be true , did not think themselves obliged to tell others they ought to believe them ; and consequently to deliver these as matters of faith to their children ? let mr. s. shew me any inconsequence in this ; but that it unavoidably follows upon his principles that they were bound to teach their children what themselves received as the doctrine of christ , and that the obligation is in all respects equal as if they had believed these things on the account of oral tradition . 4 if children be obliged to believe what their parents teach them for matters of faith , then upon mr. s's . own concessions is not posterity bound to believe something which originally came not from christ or his apostles ? for it appears in this case , that the first rise was from a private opinion of some doctors of the church ; but they believing these opinions themselves , think themselves obliged to propagate them to others ; and by reason of their learning and authority , these opinions may by degrees gain a general acceptance in the ruling part of the chur●● ; and all who believe them true , t●●●● they ought to teach them their ●●●●dren ; and children they are to believe what their parents teach them . thus from mr. s's . own principles , things that never were delivered by christ or his apostles , may come to be received as matters of faith in the present church . thus the intelligent reader needs no bodies help but mr. s. to let him understand how invocation of saints , purgatory , transubstantiation , &c. though never delivered either by christ or his apostles , may yet now be looked on as articles of saith , and yet no age of the church conspire to deceive another . either then mr. s. must say , there never were any private opinators or speculators in the church as distinct from testifiers , and then he unavoidably contradicts himself ; or he must deny that posterity is bound to believe what their fore-fathers delivered them as matters of faith ; which destroyes the force of his whole demonstration . perhaps he will answer , that children are not bound to believe what barely their parents , or a●other number of persons might deliver matters of faith , but what the whole ●hurch of every age delivers . this , ●ough the only thing to be said in ●e case , yet is most unreasonable ; be●●use it runs men upon inextricable dif●culties in the way of their resolving ●ith . for suppose any children ●ught by their parents what they are ● believe ; mr. s. must say , they are ●ot bound to believe them presently , ●ut to enquire whether they agree ●ith the whole church of that age●rst ●rst , before they can be obliged to as●nt . which being an impossible task ●ther for children , or men of age ● find out in the way of oral tradi●on ; this way of resolving faith , ●oth but offer a fairer pretence for ●fidelity . for we see how impossi●le it is for mr. s. to make it appear , ●hat their church is agreed about the ●ule of faith ; for by his own confession , ●he far greater number as speculators●ppose ●ppose the way asserted by him : how ●uch more difficult then must it needs ●e to find out what the sense of the whole essential church is in all matters which parents may teach their children for doctrines of faith ? so that if chrildren are not bound to believe what their parents teach them , till they know they teach nothing but what the whole church teaches , it is the most compendious way to teach them they are not bound to believe at all . but if this distinction be admitted , as mr. s. makes much use of it , then it appears how errors may come into the church at sirst under the notion of speculations , and by degrees to be delivered as points of faith , by which means those things may be received in the church , for such , which were never delivered by christ or his apostles , and yet no age conspire to deceive the next , which was the thing to be shewed . this is one way of shewing how errors may come into the church , without one ages conspiring to deceive the next ; but besides this , there are several others i might insist upon ; but i shall mention only two more ▪ 1. misinterpreting the sence of scripure . 2. supposing it in the power o● some part of the church to oblige the whole in matters of faith . for the first we are to consider that no imaginable account can be given either of the writing or universal reception of the books of the new testament , if they were not designed for the preservation of the doctrine of christ. and ●lthough it should be granted possible ●or the main and fundamental articles of christian faith ( such as the apostles creed gives a summary account of ) ●o have been preserved by the help of ●radition ; yet , unless we be extream●y ungrateful , we cannot but acknowledge that god hath infinitely ●etter provided for us , in not leaving ●he grounds of our religion to the ●eer breath of the people , or the care ●f mothers instructing their children , ●ut hath given us the certain records ●fall the doctrines and motives of faith ●reserved inviolably from the first ages ●f the church . and when the church●w ●w with what care god had provided ●r the means of faith , tradition●as ●as little minded ; thence the memory ●f those other things not recorded in ●cripture is wholly lost ; all the care ●as imployed in searching , preserving and delivering these sacred books t● posterity . to these the primitiv● church still appeals ; these they plea● for against all adversaries , defendin● their authority , explaining their sense vindicating them from all corruption● tradition they rely not on any fu●ther then as a testimony of the trut● of these records , or to clear the sen● of them from the perverse interpr● tation of those hereticks who preten● ed another kind of tradition th● what was in scripture . and when the● were silenced , all the disputes th● arose in the church concerning matte● of faith , was about the sense of the books ; as is evident by the procee●ings in the case of arius and pelagi● wherein tradition was only used a means to clear the sense of the s●ptures , but not at all as that which t● faith of all was to be resolved int● but when any thing was pleaded fr● tradition for which there was ground in scripture , it was reject with the same ease it was offered ; a● such persons were plainly told , t● was not the churches way ; if they b● plain scripture with the concurr● sense of antiquity , they might produce ●t and rely upon it . so that the whole ●se of tradition in the primitive church ( besides attesting the books ) was , to shew the unreasonableness of ●mposing senses on scripture , against the universal sense of the church from the apostles times . but as long as men were men , it was not avoidable , but they must fall into different apprehensions of the meaning of the scripture , according to their different judgements , prejudices , learning and education . and since they had all this apprehension that the scripture contained all doctrines of faith , thence as men judged of the sense of it , they differed in their apprehension , concerning matters of faith . and thence errors and mistakes might easily come into the church without one age conspiring to deceive the next . nay if it be possible for men to rely on tradition without scripture , this may easily be done ; for by that means they make a new rule of faith not known to the primitive church , and consequently that very assertion is an error in which the former age did not conspire to deceive the next . and if these things be possible , m. s's . demonstration fails him ; for hereby a reasonable account is given how errors may come into a church without one age conspiring to deceive another . again , let me enquire of mr. s. whether men may not believe it in the power of the ruling part of the church to oblige the whole to an assent to the definitions of it ? to speak plainer , is it not possible for men to believe the pope and council infallible in their decrees ? and i hope the jesuits ( as little as mr. s. loves them , or they him ) may be a sufficient evidence of more than the bare possibility of this . if they may believe this , doth it not necessarily follow that they are bound to believe whatever they declare to be matter of faith ? supposing then that transubstantiation , supremacy , invocation of saints , were but private opinions before , but are now defined by pope and council , these men cannot but look on themselves as much obliged to believe them , as if they had been delivered as matters of faith , in every age since the apostles times . is it now repugnant to common sense , that this opinion should be believed or entertained in the church ? if not , why may not this opinion be generally received ? if it be so , doth it not unavoidably follow that the faith of men must alter according to the churches definitions ? and thus private opinions may be believed as articles of faith , and corrupt practices be established as laudable pieces of devotion , and yet no one age of the church conspire to deceive another . thus i hope mr. s. may see how far it is from being a self-evident principle , that no error can come into the church , unless one age conspire to deceive the next in a matter of fact evident in a manner to the whole world . which is so wild an apprehension , that i believe the jesuits cannot entertain themselves without smiles to see their domestick adversaries expose themselves to contempt with so much confidence . thus i come to the reason i gave why there is no reason to believe that this is the present sense of the roman church . my words are , for i see the roman church asserts , that things may be de fide in one age , which were not in another ; at least popes and councils challenge this ; and this is the common doctrine maintained there , and others are looked on as no members of their c●urch , who assert the contrary ; but as p●rsons at least meritoriously if not actually excommunicate . where then shall i satisfie my self what the sense of your church is as to this particular ? must i believe a very few persons whom the rest disown as heretical and soditious ? or ought i not rather to take the judgement of the greatest and most approved persons of that church ? and these disown any such doctrine , but assert that the church may determine things de fide which were not before . in answer to this , mr. s. begs leave to distinguish the words de fide which may either mean christian faith or points of faith taught by christ ; and then he grants 't is non-sense to say they can be in one age , and not in another . or de fide may mean obligatory to be believed . in this latter sense none i think ( saith he ) denies things may be de fide in one age and not in another ; in the former sense none holds it . upon which very triumphantly he concludes , whatrs now become of your difficulty ? i believe you are in some wonderment , and think i elude it rather then answer it ; i shall endeavour to unperplex you . i must confess it a fault of humane nature to admire things which men understand not ; on which account i cannot free my self from some temptation to that he calls wonderment ; but i am presently cured of it when i endeavour to reduce his distinction to reason . for instead of explaining his terms he should have shewed how any thing can be obligatory to be believed in any age of the church , which was no point of faith taught by christ , which notwithstanding his endeavour to unperplex me , is a thing as yet i apprehend not : because i understand no obligation to faith to arise from any thing but divine revelation : and i do not yet believe any thing in christian doctrine to be divinely revealed , but what was delivered by christ or his apostles . and my wonderment must needs be the greater , because i suppose this inconsistent with mr. s's . principles . for oral tradition doth necessarily imply that all points of faith were first taught by christ , and conveyed by tradition to us ; but if a thing may be de side in this latter sense which was not before , what becomes of resolving faith wholly into oral tradition ? for faitb is resolved into that from whence the obligation to believe comes ; but here mr. s. confesses that the obligation to believe doth arise from something quite different from oral tradition ; and therefore faith must be resolved into it . besides , all the sense i can find in that distinction , is , that men are bound to believe something in one age , which they were not in another ; and if so , i shall desire mr. s. to unperplex me in this , how every age is bound to believe just as the precedent did , and yet one age be bound to believe more then the precedent . but however , i am much obliged to him for his endeavour to unperplex me as he speaks : for really i look on no civilities to be greater than those which are designed for clearing our understandings : so great an adorer am i of true reason and an intelligible religion . and therefore i perfectly agree with him in his saying , that christianity aims not to make us beasts , but more perfectly men : and the perfection of our manhood consists in the use of our reasons . from whence he inferrs , that it is reasonable , consequences should be drawn from principles of faith , which , he saith , are of two sorts ; first such as need no more but common sense to deduce them ; the others are such as need the maxims of some science got by speculation to infer them ; and these are theological conclusions : the former sort , he tells us , the church is necessitated to make use of upon occasion , i. e. when any heretick questions those , and eadem opera , the whole point of faith it self , of which they were a part ; as in the case of the monothelites , about christs baving two wills . but all this while , i am far enough from being unperplexed : nay by this discourse i see every one who offers to unperplex another is not very clear himself . for since he makes no theological conclusions to be de side , but only such consequences as common sence drawes , i would willingly understand how common sence receives a new obligation to faith . for to my apprehension the deducing of consequences from principles by common sense , is not an act of believing , but of knowledge consequent upon a principle of faith . and the meaning is no more then this , that men when they say they believe things , should not contradict themselves , as certainly they would do , if they deny those consequences which common sense draws from them . as in the case of the monothelites , for men to assert that christ had two natures , and yet not two wills , when the will is nothing else but the inclination of the nature to that good which belongs to it . so that there can be no distinct obligation to believe such consequences as are drawn by common sense ; but every one that believes the principles from whence they are drawn , is thereby bound to believe all the consequences which immediately follow from them . indeed the church , when people will be so unreasonable to deny such things , may explain her sense of the article of faith in those terms which may best prevent dispute ; but this is only to discriminate the persons who truly believe this article from such as do not . not that any new obligation to faith results from this act of the church : but the better to prevent cavils , she explains her sense of the article it self in more explicite terms . which as he saith , is only to put the faith out of danger of being equivocated . which is quite another thing from causing a new obligation to believe . as suppose the church to prevent the growth of the socinian doctrine , should , require from men the declaring their belief of the eternal existence of the son of god ; would this be to bind men to believe some thing which they were not bound to before ? no , but only to express their assent to the deity of christ in the simplest terms ; because otherwise they might call him god by office , and not by nature . now how can any one conceive that any should be first obliged to believe that christ is god ; and yet receive a new obligation afterwards to believe his eternal existence ? thus it is in all immediate consequences drawn by common sense ; in all which the primary obligation to believe the thing it self , extends to the belief of it in the most clear and least controverted terms , which are not intended to impose on mens faith , but to promote the churches peace . for neither i● there a new object of faith ; for how can that be which common sense draws from what is believed already ▪ neither is there any infallible proponent , unless common sense hath usurped the popes prerogative . but mr. s. offers at a reason for this , which is that none can have an obligation to believe what they have not an obligation to think of ; and in some age the gen●rality of the faithful have no occasion , nor consequently obligation to mind , reflect , or think on those propositions involved in the main stock of faith . from whence , he saith , it follows , that a thing may be de fide or obligatory to be believed in one age , and not in another . but let mr. s. shew how a man can be obliged to believe any thing as an article of faith , who is not bound to thin● of all the immediate consequences o● it ? because faith is an act of a reasonable nature , which ought to enquire into the reasons and consequences of things which it doth believe . bu● mr. s. mistake lies here , in not distinguishing the obligation to believe , from the obligation to an explicite declaration of that assent . the former comes only from god , and no new obligation can arise from any act of the church ; but the latter being a thing tending to the churches peace , may be required by it on some occasions ; i. e. when the doctrine is assaulted by hereticks as in the time of the four first general councils : but still a man is not at all the more obliged to assent , but to express his assent in order to the churches satisfaction . but mr. s. supposes me to enquire , how the church can have power to oblige the generality to belief of such a point . to which his answer is , she obliges them to believe the main point of faith , by vertue of traditions being a self-evident rule , and these implyed points by vertue of their being self-evidently connected with those main and perpetually used points , so that the vulgar can be rationally and connaturally made capable of this their obligation . but we are not now enquiring what the obligation to believe the main points of faith is , nor whether traditiou be a self-evident rule ; but how there should be a new obligation to believe something self-evidently connected with the former points , is beyond my capacity to understand . and they must be vulgar understandings indeed , that can rationally and connaturally be made capable of such an obligation . for if it be self-evidently connected with the main points , no one can believe the one , without believing the other : for nothing is self-evident but what a man assents to at the first apprehension of it ; and if he doth so , how comes there a new obligation to believe it ? is it possible to believe that any thing consists of parts , and not believe that the whole is greater than any of those parts ▪ for this is a thing self-evidently connected with the nature of the whole . but these are self-evident riddles , a● the former were unintelligible demonstrations . and yet though these b● rare theories , the application of them to the case of the roman church exceeds all the rest . whence , saith he , the government of our church is still justified to be sweet , and according to right nature , and yet forcible and efficacious although i admire many things in mr. s's . book , yet i cannot say i do any thing more than this passage , that because men are obliged to believe no implyed points , but such as are self-evidently connected with the main ones , therefore the government of the roman church is sweet and according to right nature , &c. alas then , how much have we been mistaken all this while , that have charged her with imposing hard and unsufferable conditions of communion with her ! no , she is so gentle and sweet that she requires nothing but the main points on the account of a self-evident rule , and implyed points by reason of self-evident connexion with the former . i see mr. s. ( if he will make good his word ) is the only person who ●s ever like to reconcile me with the church of rome : for i assure you , i ●ever desire any better terms of communion with a church , than to have no ●ain points of faith required from me ●o assent to , but what are built on a self-evident rule , nor any implyed points ●ut such as are self-evidently connected with the former . and no work can ●e more easie , than to convince me upon these grounds ; for all endeavours of proof are taken away by the things being said to be self-evident . for the very offer of proof that they are so , self-evidently proves they are not so : for what ever is proved by something beside it self , can never be said without a contradiction to be self-evident . but not to tye up mr. s. from his excellent faculty of proving , if mr. s. will prove to me that any of the points in difference between us , as transubstantiation , purgatory , supremacy of the roman church , &c. have any self-evident connexion with any main poin● of faith in the apostles creed , i solemnly promise him to retract all i have writ against that church ; so far shall bee from needing a new obligation to believe them . but if these be so remot● from self-evidence , that they are plainly repugnant to sense and reason ( witne● that self-evident doctrine of transubstantiation ) what then must we thin● of mr. s. ? surely the least is , that sin● his being a roman catholick , his min● is strangely inlightned , so far that tho● things are self-evident to him , whi● are contradictions to the rest of t● world . but withal mr. s. acquaints us with another mysterie ; which is , how these points descended by a kind of tradition , and yet confesses , they were never thought of or reflected on , by the generality , till the church took occasion to explain them . such a silent tradition doth very sutably follow the former self-evident connexion . for he that can believe transubstantiation to be self-evident , no wonder if he believes that to have been delivered by a constant tradition , which was never heard of from the apostles times to these . now mr. s. is pleased to return to me , and draws up a fresh charge against me , which is , that i act like a politician , and would conquer them by first dividing them , and making odius comparisons between two parties of divines . but to shew us how little they differ , he distinguishes them , as faithful , and as private discoursers ; in the former not●on , he saith , they all hold the same divinely constituted church-government , and the same self-evident rule of faith ; but as private discoursers he acknowledges they differ in the explication of their belief . i meddle not here ●●th the government of their church , ( which i have elswhere proved to be far enough from being divinely constituted ) but with the rule of faith ; and the question is , whether the infallibility of or altradition , be that self-evident rule which that church proceeds on ; yes , saith mr. s. they are all as faithful agreed in it , but as discoursers they differ about it . which in short is , that all in the church of rome , who are not of his opinion , know not what they say ; and that they oppose that which they do really believe . which in plain english is , that they are egregious dissemblers and prevaricators in religion ; that they do intolerably flatter the pope and present church with loud declamations for their infallibility , but they do really believe no such thing , but resolve all into oral tradition . but is not this an excellent agreement among them , when mr. white and his party not only disown the common doctrine of the infallibility of pope and councils , but dispute against it as pernicious and destructive to christian faith ? on the other side the far greater part of romanists say , there can be no certainty of faith , unless there be an infallible divine testimony in the present church , and this lodged in pope and councils ; that those who endeavour to overthrow this , are dangerous , seditious , heretical persons . accordingly , their books are censured at rome , their opinions disputed against , and their persons condemned . and yet all this while , we must believe that these stick together like two smooth marbles as faithful , though they are knocked one against another as discoursers ; and that they perfectly agree in the same self-evident rule of faith , when all their quarrels and contentions are about it : and those managed with so great heat , that heresie is charged of one side , and arch-heresie and undermining religion on the other . doth he think we never heard of mr. whites sonus succinae , nor of that chapter in it , where he saith , that the doctrine of pope and councils infallibility tends to overthrow the certainty of christian faith ; and that the propagating such a doctrine is a greater crime then burning temples , ravishing the sacred virgins on the altars , trampling on the body of christ , or the sending the turk or antichrist into christian countreys ? or doth he think we can believe that the pope and cardinals , the jesuites and all the papists of forreign countreys do as faithful agree with mr. white in this ? it seems not so by the proceedings in the court of rome against him , in which as appears by the censure of the inquisition against him , dated 17. november 1661. his doctrine is condemned not only as false , seditious and scandalous , but as heretical and erroneous in faith . and if it were not for this very doctrine he was there censured , why doth mr. white set himself purposely to defend it in his tabulae suffragiales ? if these then do agree as faithful , who cannot but envy the excellent harmony of the roman church , in which men condemn each other for hereticks , and yet all believe the same things still ? well sir , i am in hopes upon the same grounds mr. s. will yield us the same charity too , and tell us that we agree with him as faithful , only we differ a little from him as discoursers ; for i assure you , there is as great reason : the only difference is , we give them not such ill words as they do each other . for let mr. s. shew us wherein we differ more from him about the rule of faith , than they do among themselves : for mr , white when he hath said , that all kind of heresie doth arise from hence that men make the holy scripture , or a private spirit , the rule of faith ; he presently adds , it is all one , if one make councils or pope any other way than as witnesses to be the authors of faith . for , saith he , this is to subject the whole church to that slavery , to receive any errour for an article of faith , which they shall define , or propose modo illegitimo , i. e. any other way then as witnesses of tradition . either then we differ from mr. s. only as discoursers , or he and his brethren differ from each other more then as such . and so any one would think who reads the oppositions and arguments against each other on this subject , particularly mr. whites tabulae suffragiales . but let mr. white say what he will , mr. s. tells me , i am not aware how little they differ even as divines . the more shame for them to have such furious heats and oppositions where there is so little difference . but as little as they differ , mr. white thinks it safer to talk of their unity in england , than to try whether they be of his mind at rome , by going thither to clear himself ; for he justly fears he should find them differ from him some other way the● as bare discoursers . yet let us hea● mr. s's . reason ; for , saith he , thoug● some speculators attribute to the churc● a power of defining things not held before , yet few will say she hath new revelations or new articles of faith . bu● we know the temper of these men better then to rely on what they barel● say . for they say what they think 〈◊〉 most for their purpose ; and on● of mr. whites adversaries , ( if himsel● may be credited ) plainly told him , i● the doctrine of the popes infallibility wer● not true , yet it ought to be defended b●cause it was for the interest of the churc● of rome : for which he is sufficientl● rebuked by him . it is one thing the● what they say , and another what necessarily follows from the doctrin● which they assert . but for plain dealing commend me to the canonists , who say expresly , the church ( by whic● they mean the pope ) may make new articles of faith : and this is the sense of the rest , though they are loth to speak out . else mr. white was much too blame in spending so much time in proving the contrary . but what man of common sense can imagine that these men can mean otherwise , who assert such an infallibility in pope and councils , as to oblige men under pain of eternal damnation to believe those things which they were not obliged to , before such a definition ? and what can this be else but to make new articles of faith ? for an article of faith supposes a necessary obligation to believe it : now if some doctrine may become thus obligatory by virtue of the churches definition which was not so before , that becomes thereby an article of faith which it was not before . but these subtle men have not yet learnt to distinguish a new doctrine from a new article of faith : they do not indeed pretend that their doctrine is new , because they deny any such thing as new revelation in the church ; but yet they must needs say , if they understand themselves , that old implicit doctrines , may become new a●ticles of faith by virtue of the churcher definition . so little are they relieved by that silly distinction of explicit and implicit delivery of them , which mr. s. for a great novelty acquaints us with . for what is only implicitly delivered , 〈◊〉 no article of faith at all : for that can be no article of faith , which men are not bound to believe ; now there are none will say that men are bound to believe under pain of damnation i● they do not the things which are only implicitly delivered ; but this they say with great confidence of all things defined by the church . and let now any intelligent person judge ; whether those who assert such things , do not differ wide enough from those who resolve all into oral tràdition , and make the obligation to faith wholly dependent upon the constant tradition of any doctrine from age to age ever since the apostles times . but mr. s. is yet further displeased with me for saying , that pope and councils challenge a power to make things de fide in one age , which were not in another . for 1. he says i speak it in common , and prove it not . 2. he adds , that take them right , this is both perfectly innocent , and unavoidably necessary to a church . and is it not strange he should expect any particular proofs of so innocent and necessary a thing to the being of a church ? but he will tell me it is in his own sense of de fide , which i have already shewn to signifie nothing to his purpose . let him therefore speak out whether he doth believe any such thing as inherent infallibility in the definitions of pope and councils ? if not , i am sure at rome they will never believe that mr. s. agrees with them as faithful ; if he doth , whether doth not such an infallible definition bind men by virtue of it to the belief of what is then defined ? if it doth , then things may become as much de fide by it , as if they were delivered by christ or his apostles . for thereby is supposed an equal obligation to faith , because there is a proposition equally infallible . but will he say , the pope doth not challenge this ? why then is the contrary doctrine censured and condemned at rome ? why is the other so eagerly contended for , by the most zealous sons of that church , and that not as a school-opinion , but as the only certain foundation of faith ? mr. s. is yet pleased to inform me further , that nothing will avail me but this , if a pope and council should define a new thing , and declare they ground themselves on new lights , as did their first reformers in england : but i shall find , he saith , no such fopperies in faith-definitions made by the catholick church . is this the man who made choice of reason for his weapon ? could there be a greater calumny cast on our church , than to say her reformers grounded themselves on new lights : when our great charge against the church of rome is for introducing novelties , and receding from pure and primitive antiquity . whether the charge be true or no , yet sure it follows they did not declare they ground themselves on new lights , but expresly the contrary . well , but pope and councils neither define new things , nor ground themselves on them : but what means the man of reason ? that they make no new definitions : surely ot ; for then what did they meet for ? ●d what mean their decrees ? but he ●tends , that they deliver no new do●rine : but how must that be tryed ? ●r hath mr. s. gained the opinion of ●fallibility both from pope and coun●ls , that we must believe his bare ●ord ? but we not only say but prove ●hat even their last council hath defi●ed many things , which never were ●elivered by christ or his apostles . and it is to no purpose whether they ●y they ground themselves on new lights , ●r pretend to an infallible assistance ; ●or it comes all to the same at last . for ●f the assistance be infallible , what mat●er is it whether the doctrine hath been ●evealed or no ? for on this suppositi●n it is impossible that pope and council●hould ●hould miscarry . therefore if any church be guilty of fopperies in faith-definitions , it must be that which you miscall the catholick , but is more truly known by the name of the roman church . there is yet one piece of mr. s's . sagacity to be taken notice of as to this particular , which is , that i am at an end of my argument , because i say the opinion of the pope and councils infallibility is the common doctrine maintained : in which i confound the church with the schools , or some private opinaters , and then carp at those mens tenets . and this is the force of all that paragraph . he tells me , i wa● not wit to know that no sober catholic● holds humane deductions the rule of their faith , schoolmen definers of it , no● the schools the tribunal whence to propose it authoritatively and obligingly to the generality of the faithful . neither doth mr. s. want the wit to know that our present enquiry is concerning the sense of their present church about the rule of faith . since the● mr. s. must confess it necessary to faith to know what the certain rule of it is ; let me enquire further , whether any particular person can know certainly what it is , unless he know● what the church owns for her rule of faith ; and whether that may be owned as the churches judgement , which is stiffly opposed by the most interessed persons in the roman church , and the most zealous contenders for it . ? especially when the pope who is said to be head of the church , condemns the doctrine asserted , and that only by a small number of such who are as much opposed by themselves , as by any of us . is it then possible to know the churches judgement or not ? if not , t is to no purpose to search for a rule of faith : if it be , which way can we come to know it , either by most voices or the sense of the governours of the church ; either of the wayes , i dare put it to a fair tryall whether oral tradition , or the infallibility of pope and councils be the doctrine most owned in the church of rome ? but mr. s. still tells us , these are only private opinators and schoolmen who assert the contrary doctrine to his . but will not they much more say on the other side , that this way of oral tradition is a novel fancy of some few half-catholicks in england , and tends to subvert the roman church . but is the present pope with mr. s. a private opinator , or was the last a meer schoolman ? i am sure what ever mr. s. thinks of him he thought not so of himself , when he said , he was no divine in the controversie of jansenius . doth the court of rome signifie no more with mr. s. then a company of scholastick pedants , that know not what the sense of the church is , concerning the rule of faith ? i meddle not with the schools but with the authority of the present church , and him whom mr. s. owns for the head of it : and is it consistent with his headship to condemn that doctrine which contains in it the only certain rule of faith ? mr. s. may then see they were no such impertinent topicks which i insisted on , and as stout as mr. s. seems to be , i am apt to believe he would not look on the censure of the inquisition as an impertinent topick . but at last mr. s. offers at something whereby he would satisfie me of the sense of the church , as to this particular , and therefore asks , whether i never heard of such a thing as the council of trent ? i must ingenuously confess i have ; and seen more a great deal of it , then i am satisfied with . but what of that ? there , he tells me , i may find a clear solution of my doubt by the constant procedure of that most grave synod in its definitions . that is i hope to find that oral tradition was acknowledged there as the only self-evident rule of faith : if i do this . i confess my self satisfied in this enquiry . but how much to the contrary is there very obvious in the proceedings of it ? for in the 4. session the decree is , that scripture and tradition should be embraced with equal piety and reverence ; and the reason is , because the doctrine of faith is contained , partly in scripture , partly in tradition ; but what arts must mr. s. use to inferr from hence , that oral tradition in contradistinction to scripture was looked on as the only rule of faith ? i cannot but say that the ruling men of that council were men wise enough in their generation ; and they were too wise wholly to exclude scripture ; but because they knew that of it self could not serve their purposes , they therefore help it out with tradition , and make both together the compleat rule of faith . where i pray in all the proceedings of that council doth mr. s. find them desine any thing on the account of oral tradition ? instead of which we find continual bandyings about the sense of scripture and fathers , which might have been all spared if they had been so wise as to consider they could not but know the sense of the present church , nor that of the precedent , and so up to the time of christ. but they were either so ignorant as not to light on this happy invention , or so wise and knowing as to despise it . it is true they would not have their doctrines looked on as novelties , therefore they speak much of tradition and the ancient faith ; but that was not by what their parents taught them , but what the fathers of the church delivered in their writings ; for by these they judged of traditions , and not the oral way . and therefore i see little reason to believe , that this was either the sense of the council of trent , or is the sense of any number of roman catholicks , much less of the whole church none excepted as mr. s. in his confident way expresses it . and if he will , as he saith , disavow the maintaining any point , or affecting any way which is not assented to by all , i hope to see mr. s. retract this opinion , and either fall in with the court of rome , or return as reason leads him into the bosom of the church of england . but there seems to be somewhat more in what follows , viz. that though schoolmen question the personal infallibility of the pope , or of the roman clergy , nay of a general council , yet all affirm the infallibility of tradition , or the living voice of the church essential ; and this , he faith , is held by all , held firmly , and that it is absolutely infallible . to this therefore i answer ; either mr. s. means that none do affirm that the universal tradition of the church essential can erre ; or that the church of rome being the church essential cannot erre in her tradition : but which way soever he takes it , i shall easily shew how far it is from proving that he designs it for . for if he take it in the first sense , viz. that all the faithful in all ages could not concur in an error , then he may as well prove protestants of his mind as papists , for this is the foundation on which we believe the particular books of scripture . if this therefore proves any thing , it proves more then he intends , viz. that while we thus oppose each other , we do perfectly agree together ; and truly so we do , as much as they do among themselves . but if mr. s's . meaning be , that all of their religion own the roman church to be the church essential , and on that account , that it cannot erre ( setting aside the absurdity of the opinion it self ) i say from hence it doth not follow , that they make or●l tradition the rule of faith , because it is most evident that the ground why they say thei● church cannot erre , is not on mr. s's . principles , but on the supposition of an infallible assistance which preserves that church from error . so that this fall● far short of proving that they are all agreed in this rule of faith ; which is a thing so far from probability , that he might by the same argument prove that scripture is owned by them all to be the rule of faith . for i hope it is held by all , and held firmly that the living voice of god in scripture as delivered to us is infallible ; and if so then there is as much ground for this as the other . but if we enquire what it is men make a rule of faith , we must know not only that they believe tradition infallible , but on what account they do . so . for if tradition be believed infallible barely on the account of a promise of infallibility to the present church , then the resolution of saith is not into the tradition , but into that infallible assistance ; and consequently the rule of faith is not , what bare tradition delivers , but what that church which cannot erre in judging tradition doth propose to us . it is not therefore their being agreed in general that tradition is infallible doth make them agree in the same rule of faith ; but they must agree in the ground of that infallibility , viz. that it depends on this , that no age could conspire to deceive the next . but all persons who understand any thing of the roman church , know very well that the general reason why tradition is believed infallible is , because they first believe the church to be infallible ; whereas mr. s. goes the contrary way , and makes the infallibility of the church , to depend on the infallibility of tradition . and therefore for all that i can see we must still oppose private opinators in this controversie ; the church of rome , not having declared her self at all on mr. s's behalf , but the contrary : and the generality believing on the account of the present churches infallibility . and it is strange mr. s. should find no difference between mens resolving faith into common sense , and into the immediate assistance of the holy ghost . if this then be the first principle of controversie , as mr. s. pretends , we see how unlikely they are to agree about other matters , who are so much divided about the principle of resolving them . and if this be the ground of faith , then most romanists build on a wrong foundation . but if the infallibility of oral tradition , be the foundation on which that formidable structure is erecting , which he speaks of ; woe then to the court of rome , for that is known to build on quite a different foundation . and if this , as he saith , rises apace , and has advanced many stories in a small time , it only lets us know how fast their divisions grow , and that they are building so fast one against another , that their church will not stand between them . by this discourse , mr. s. pretends to answer all those if 's which follow ; which are these , in case the church may determine things de fide which were not before , whether the present church doth then believe as the precedent did or no ? if it did , how comes any thing to be de fide which was not before ? if it did not , what assurance can i have that every age of the church believes just as the precedent did and no otherwise ? when i see they profess the contrary . and if a thing may be de fide in one age which was not in a foregoing , then a church may deliver that as a matter of faith at one time , which was never accounted so before : by which means the present church may oblige me to believe that as a matter of faith , which never was so in christs or the apostles times , and so the infallibility on the account of tradition is destroyed . to all which mr. s. gives a very easie answer : viz. that they do not hold any disparate or unimplyed points of faith ; but such as are involved and implyed in the main point . this is more easily said then understood : for if these be implyed in the former , how can there come a new obligation to believe them ? for to take his own instance , will any man in his senses say , that he that believes , homo est animal rationale , doth not believe homo est animal ? and this he makes choice of as an example how one point of faith may be involved in another so as to receive a distinct obligation to believe it . i grant that homo est animal is involved in the other , but he that shall say , that after he hath assented to that proposition , homo est animal rationale , he may be capable of a new obligation to believe the former which is involved in this , it may be justly questioned whether such a one as to himself can truly say , homo est animal rationale or no. but after such rare subtilties , he doth very well to tell me , that i ought to consider what logick tells us , that the conclusion is in the premises , which reflection ( in his courtlike expression ) he saith will much unblunder my thoughts . but let the conclusion be as long as it will in the premises , will any man in his wits say , that he that believes the truth of the premises is not thereby bound to believe the conclusion ? and the more the one is involved in the other , the less is it possible to make the obligation to believe them distinct . and it is hard for me to believe , that this is a way to unblunder my thoughts , when i see what horrible confusion such expressions argue in his own . let the church then clear her thoughts never so much , yet all this cannot amount to a distinct obligation to believe those things which were involved before , but to a more explicit declaring them for the churches peace and satisfaction . the only conclusion then involved in these premises is , that if some things may be de fide in one age which were not in another , then the present age may believe otherwise then the precedent did . and if this doctrine be held in the church of rome , nothing can be more evident , then that mr. s's . first principle of controversie , is far from being the doctrine of the roman church : which was the thing to be proved . my second chief argument against this way of oral tradition was , that it had not been owned in all ages of the christian church ; to manifest which , i enquired into the reason of the obligation in any age of the church to believe and practise just as the precedent did . mr. s. rejoyces in that confession of mine , that the only thing to be proved in this case is , that every age of the church and all persons in it looked on themselves as obliged not to vary in any thing from the doctrine and practise of the precedent age . and i there offer the choice of three wayes to prove it , reason , testimony or tradition ; he tells me , he accepts the way of reason ; yet quarrels with me for pressing for a demonstrative medium to prove it , when yet mr. s. seldome speaks unde●●he rate of demonstrations . but he thereby notes the unconsonancy of my carriage ; wherein i wonder ? that i should desire them to perform their promise , viz. to give us demonstrations for the grounds of faith ? but he saith withal , he will yield me the honour of professing i have no demonstration but probability for the ground of mine , and he make● this serious protestation for himself , tha● he should esteem himself very dishonest , did he assert and press on others an● argument for the ground of his faith which he judged not evident , that is demonstrative . what is it these men mean , when they cry up their own way for demonstrative , and say that we build ●ur faith meerly on probabilities ? do ●hey say that religion is capable of ●rict and rigorous demonstration ? if 〈◊〉 , let them demonstrate the being of ●od and immortality of the soul with as ●uch evidence , as that the three angles ●f a triangle are equal to two right angles . ●nd it is strange if they think particu●r problems in religion are more capa●le of demonstration then those theorems●n ●n which they are built . but by all he enquiry i can make , all the diffe●ence between us is , that mr. s. will ●ave that called a demonstration , which ● scarce a probability , and we call tha● ●fficient reason , which any wise man ●ay safely rely on in matters of religi●n . in the mean time how much do ●e suffer by our modesty , that because ●e speak not as big as mr. s. does , we ●ust be censured presently to have no●hing but probabilities for our faith ? are ●hose bare probabilities which leave no ●uspicion of doubt behind them ? and ●uch we freely assert the grounds of ●ur religion to do ; i. e. i assert that we have the highest actual certainty of the truth of our religion which the mind of any reasonable man can desire , and if mr. s's . demonstrations can do any more then this , let him tell us what it is . for my part i know nothing higher in the mind of man then a certain assent , and if i did not think there was the greatest ground in religion for that , i abhorr dissimulation so much that i should leave off perswading men to embrace it . and if any men have made us shye of the word demonstration and infallibility , they are such men as mr. s. have done it , who talk of these things when their arguments fall beneath some of the remotest probabilities we insist on . nay if there be any force in his demonstration as to matters of fact , it hath been used by us long before his book saw the light . but we love to give the true names to things , and not to lose our credit with all intelligent persons , by playing mountebanks in religion , crying 〈◊〉 those things for infallible cures which an ordinary capacity may discern the insufficiency of . but was it any thin● but justice and reason in me to expe●● and call for a demonstration from them who talk of nothing under it ? and therefore i said , that it was impossible to demonstrate this way of oral tradition , unless it were proved impossible for men not to think themselves obliged to believe and do all just as their predecessors did . for where the contrary is not only possible , but easily supposable , ●s that men may believe those things as new articles of faith which are defined by pope and council , i wonder how mr. s. will demonstrate that men must ●ook on themselves as obliged to be●●eve just as their predecessors did ? for i had thought demonstrations had ●ever place in contingent propositions ; but it seems mr. s. who tells me , logick will unblunder my thoughts , in●ends to make a new one for me . and ● assure you so he had need , before i ●hall ever call his arguments demon●trations : and although he thinks him●elf very honest in calling them so , yet ● should think him much wiser if he did not . but before i come to the particular debate of these things , i freely tell him , that i grant all he requests ; ● shall take along with me the nature of the matter in hand , the doctrines an● practises spoken of , the manner of delivering them , the necessary circumstance● which give weight to both ; yet for al● these , i cannot look on his way as demonstrative . and that both our meanings may be better understood , it i● very necessary the reader should hav● a true account of the state of the question between us . and if he will believe me , i never intended to disput● with him or any one else , whether me● were bound to wear their clothes , or buil● houses , or manage estates just as thei● predecessors did , but whether eve● age is obliged to believe and practi● just as the precedent did by vertue o● meer oral tradition ; for about that i● all the controversie between us . i d● not deny but that a succeeding ag● may look on it self as bound to believe what the precedent did ; bu● whether that obligation doth ari● purely from the delivery of that doctrine by the precedent in the way o● of tradition , is the thing in dispute between us . for in case the ground ● faith be wholly the written word conveyed from age to age , i deny not but an obligation to believe descends with the doctrine to every succeeding age . but that which mr. s. is to prove is , that abstractly from scripture every age is absolutely bound to believe just as the precedent did , without any enquiry whether that doctrine doth agree with scriptures or no , but that he is therefore bound to believe all which is proposed to him , because it was the doctrine of the immediately preceding age . and this is that which i deny , and desire mr. s. to prove for which he first gives us a large instance in historical matters , and then comes to the matters of christian saith . his instance is , in alexanders conquest of asia , as to which he saith , that the memory of it is fresh and lively , though some thousand years since . and that the universal and strong perswasion of this matter of fact was not caused by books , as curtius his history , but by humane tradition : that the continuance of this perswasion was the notoriety of the fact to the then livers which obliged them to relate it to their posterity , and that this testifying by the fore-fathers was that which obliged posterity to believe things as true , because there could be no imaginable motive why the whole world should conspire to deceive them , or be deceivable in their sensations : on which principle it passed to the next age , and so came down by way of tradition to our dayes : and the obligation to believe in every age depended upon this that the senses of the first could not be deceived ; and having this security in every age that no one would conspire to deceive the next ; it followes that no age could say a former age testified so , unless it did so ; therefore , saith he , it follows demonstratively that it was testified ; and so the descendents in every age to the very end of the world have the same obligation to believe their immediate fore-fathers saying it was testified by theirs , and so to the very first who were witnesses of his actions . this is the substance of what he more largely discourses in several paragraphs ; which when he hath done , he tells me , he expects what i will reply to this discourse . not to frustrate therefore his expectation , and in order to the readers satisfaction , we are to consider that in the present case there are two distinct questions to be resolved . 1. how a matter of fact evident to the world comes to be conveyed to posterity ? 2. by what means a compleat history of all passages relating to it may be conveyed ? as 〈◊〉 the first , i grant that a fact so noto●us as alexanders conquest of asia might have been preserved by humane tradition , and conveyed in a certain way from one age to another . but if we enquire into that which is alone proper to our question , viz. by what means we may judge what is true and false as to the particulars of that conquest , then i deny that bare tradition is to be relyed on in this case . for the certainty of conveyance of all particulars doth depend not upon the bare veracity , but the capacity and skill of communicating from one age to another . for which one would think we need no clearer evidence then the considerations of the different account of former times in the several nations of the world . for who can imagine , but the barbarous nations were as unwilling to deceive their posterity as any other ? yet we see a vast difference in the histories of former ages among them , and more civilized people . and i wish mr. s. would rather have instanced in some history which had been preserved meerly by tradition and not in such a one , which , if any other , hath been most carefully recorded and propagated to posterity . if mr. s. would have undertaken to have told us who they were that first peopled america , and srom what place they came by the tradition of the present inhabitants , and what famous actions had been done there in former ages , we might have thought indeed that sole tradition had been a very safe way to convey matters of fact from one age to another . but since all mr. s's . arguments will hold as well for the s●ythians and americans and the most barbarous nations , as the most civil and polite ; what reason can mr. s. give why there is not among them as certain an account of former ages , as among the greeks and romans ? were not their senses , who saw those matters of fact , as uncapable of being d●ceived as others ? was not every a● among them as un●illing to deceive their posterity as elswhere ? yet notwithstanding the force of mr. ss. demonstration , we see for want of letters how grosly ignorant they are of what was done before them . and if this principle were true , why have we not as true an account of the eldest ages of the world , as of any other ? nay , why were letters invented , and writing ever used , if tradition had been found so infallible ? but it is one thing superficially to discourse what is impossible should be otherwise , and another to consider what really hath been in the world . doth not the constant ●xperience of all times prove that where any history hath not been timely recorded , it hath been soon corrupted by notorious ●alsities , or obscured by fabulous reports ? as we see among our selves what difference there is in point of certainty between the several stories of k. arthur and william the conqueror ; what will mr. s. say , that these who lived in k. arthurs time could not know what he did ; or that they conspired to deceive their posterity ? but if tradition be so infallible , why have we not the ancient story of britain as exact as the modern ? if mr. s. will impute it to the peoples ignorance , want of letters , frequ●nt conquests by other nations , and succeeding barbarism , he may easi●y find how many wayes there are for matters of fact to be soon lost or corrupted , when they have not been diligently preserved by authentick records ; and that without one age conspiring to deceive another . but notwithstanding mr. s's . confidence , i cannot think it possible for mr. s. to believe that we should have had as true an account of alexander● conquest of asia , if arrian , curtius , o● plutarch had never writ his story , a● we have now . yet this he must asse● by vertue of his principles . and he that can believe that , i wonder he should scruple believing the popes infallibility ; for certainly no principle o● the jesuites is more wild and absurd then this is . besides , i admire how it came into mr. s's . head to think , no error could come into history unless o● age conspired to deceive another , when we find no age agreed in the present matters of fact which are done in it , as to the grounds and particulars of them . to give mr. s. an instance home to his purpose , in the late council of trent ; we see already what different representations there are made of it in so little a time as hath already passed since the sitting of it . one , though he had all the advantages imaginable of knowing all proceedings in it , living at the same time , conversing with the persons present at it , having the memoires and records of the secretaries themselves , yet his story is since endeavoured to be blasted by a great person of the roman church as fictitious and partial . we see then it is at least supposed that interest and prejudice may have a great hand in abusing the world in matter of story , though one-age never agree to deceive another . and in stead of being perswaded by mr. s's . demonstrations , i am still of the mind , that we have no sufsicient security of the truth of any story , which was not written while those persons were in being who were able to contradict the errors of it . however i deny not but some notorious matters of fact , such as alexanders bare conquest of asia , might by the visible effects of it be preserved both in asia and greece for a long time . but if we come to enquire particularly whether this or that was done by him in his conquest , which is alone pertinent to our purpose , we have no security at all from tradition , but only from the most authentick records of that story . and by this , i hope mr. s. will have cause to thank me for unblundering his thoughts ( his own civil expression ) and shewing him how errors may come into a story without one age conspiring to deceive the next ; and what a vast difference there is between preserving a bare matter of fact , and all the particulars relating to it . and hereby he may easily see how far the obligation extends in believing the report of former ages . for there can be no obligation to believe any further then there is evidence of truth in the matter we are obliged to . if then there be not only a possibility but a very great probability of mistakes and errors in matters of fact , i pray what obligation doth there lye upon men absolutely to believe what is delivered by the preceding age ? but to put an issue to this controversie , let mr. s. examine himself , and try if he can name one story that was never written , which was ever certainly popagated from one age to another by meer oral tradition ; and if he cannot , he may thereby see how little real force his argument hath in the world . for all the force of tradition lies in an unquestionable conveyance of those books , which contain in them the true reports of the actions of the times they were written in . but can mr. s. think , that if the roman history had never been written , it had been possible for us to have known what was done under the kings and consuls as now we do ? yet if his principle holds , this necessarily follows ; for those of that age could not but know them , and no age since could conspire to deceive the next . and from hence , the most useful consequence of all is that mr. s. might have writ a history from the beginning of the world to this day , with a full relation of all particulars , if there had never been any book written in the world before . and doth not mr. s. deserve immortal credit for so rare an invention as this is , and all built on nothing short of demonstrations : but mr. s. very prudently foresees , what it is i must be forced to recurre to , viz. that being baffled with his former demonstration , i have no other shift to betake my self to , but to say the case is different between histories and points of faith . and therefore to bring his business home , he applyes it at large to the delivery of the christian faith , which that he might do in more ample sort , he very finely descants on the old verse , quis , quid , ubi , &c. containing the circumstances of human actions , and from every one of them derives arguments for the infallibility of oral tradition : which briefly and in plain english may be summed up thus ; since the author of this doctrine was the son of god , the doctrine it self so excellent , and delivered in so publick a manner , in the most convincing way by miracles and good living , and for so good an end as to save mens souls , and that by writing it in mens hearts and testified to others ; and all this at a time when men might judge of the miracles and motives for believing it ; therefore since in all these respects it was imcomparably beyond the story of alexanders conquests , it follows that in a manner infinitely greater must the obligation be to believe christs doctrine , than alexanders or william the conquerours victories , or any history of the like nature whatsoever . all which i freely grant , but cannot yet see how from thence it follows that oral tradition is the only rule of faith , or the means whereby we are to judge what is the doctrine of christ , and what not . those arguments i confess prove that the christians of the first age were highly concerned to enquire into the truth of these things , and that they had the greatest reason imaginable to believe them ; and that it is not possible to conceive that they should not endeavour to propagate so excellent a doctrine and of so high concernment to the world . but the question is , whether abstractly from the books written in the first age of the christian church , there is so much infallibility in the oral tradition of every age , that nothing could be embraced for christs doctrine which was not and consequently whether every age were bound to believe absolutely what was delivered it by the precedent for the doctrine of christ ? mr. s. therefore puts himself to a needless task of proving that every age was bound to believe the doctrine of christ , which i never questioned ; but the dispute is , whether every age be bound on the account of oral tradition to believe what is delivered by the precedent for christs doctrine . but it is to be observed all along how carefully mr. s. avoids mentioning the written books of the new testament ; because he knew all his game about oral tradition would be quite spoiled by a true stating the matter of fact in the first ages of the christian church . i hope he will not be angry with me , for asking him that question about the scripture , which he asks me about the council of trent ; did he never hear of such a thing as the scripture ? or is it so hard to find it ? but if he hath heard of it , i intreat him to resolve me these questions . 1. whether he doth not believe that the books of the new testament were written at such a time , when the mat●ers of fact therein recorded , were ca●able of being throughly examined ? which he cannot deny upon his own ●rinciple ; for tradition being then in●allible as to the doctrine of christ , the writers of these books cannot be con●eived to deliver it amiss , unless they ●esolved to contradict the present tradition of the church , which if they had done , those books could never have found any reception among christians . if tradition then convey the doctrine of christ infallibly , these books must convey it infallibly , because they contain in them the infallible tradition of the first age of the christian church : and were written at that time when many persons living had been able to disprove any thing contained therein repugnant to truth . and that these books were written by those persons whose names they bear , i appeal to mr. s's . own rule , tradition ; for if that be infallible in any thing , it must be in this ; and if one age could conspire to deceive another in a matter of such concernment , what security can be had , that it may not do so in all other things ? 2. whether he believes that those whose intention was to write an account of the life , actions and doctrine of christ , did leave any thing out of their books which did relate to them as of concernment for us to believe ? for upon mr. s's principles , any one may easily know what the tradition of the church is ; and especially such certainly who were either present themselves at the matters of fact , or heard them from those who were ; and what satisfaction can any one desire greater then this ? but the question is , whether this testimony were not more safely deposited in the church to be conveyed by word of mouth , then it could be by being committed to writing by such who were eye and ear-witnesses o● the actions and doctrine of christ ? upon which i advance some further queries . 3. if oral tradition were the more certain way , why was anything written at all ? it may be mr. s. will tell us , for moral instructions , and to give precepts of good life ; bu● then why may not these be as infallib● conv●yed by tradition as doctrines of faith ? and why then were any matters of fact and points of faith inserted in the books of the new testament ? by which it certainly appears that the intention of writing them was to preserve them to posterity . let mr. s. tell me whether it was consistent with the wisdom of men , much less with the wisdom of an infinite being to imploy men to do that , which might be far better done another way , and when it is done can give no satisfaction to the minds of men ? 4. whether those things which are capable of being understood when they are spoken , cease to be so when they are written ? for mr. s. seems to understand those terms of a living voice , and dead letters in a very strict and rigorous manner ; as though the sense were only quick when spoken , and became buried in dead letters . but mr. s. seems with the sagacious indian to admire how it is possible for dead letters and unsenc'd characters to express mens meanings as well as words . it cannot enter into mr. s's . apprehension how 24. letters by their various disposition can express matters of faith ? and yet to increa● the wonder , he writes about matte● of faith , while he is proving that matters of faith cannot be conveyed b● writing . so that mr. s's . own writing is the best demonstration against himself ; and he confutes his own sophistr● with his fingers , as diogenes did zeno● by his motion . for doth mr. s. hop● to perswade men that tradition is ● rule of faith by his book or not ? i● not , to what purpose doth he write ● if he doth , then it is to be hoped so● matters of faith may be intelligibly conveyed by writing ; especially if mr. s. doth it ; but by no means we are t● believe that ever the spirit of god ca● do it . for whatever is written by me● assisted by that , is according to him bu● a heap of dead letters , and insignifican● characters ; when mr. s. the mean while is full of sense and de●onstration . happy man that can thus out-do in●nite wisdom , and write far beyond either prophets or apostles ! but if he will condescend so far as to allow that to inspired persons which he confidently believes of himself , viz. that he can write a book full of sense , and that any ordinary capacity may apprehend the design of it , our controversie is at an end . for then matters of faith may be intelligibly and certainly conveyed to posterity by the books of scripture ; and if so , there will be no need of any recourse to oral tradition . 5. if the books of s●ripture did not certainly and intelligibly convey all matters of faith , what made them be received with so much veneration in the first ages of the christian church ? which were best able to judge of the truth of the matters contained ●n them , and the usefulness of the books themselves . and therein we still find that appeals were made to them , that they thought themselves concerned to vindicate them against all objections of heathens and others ; and the resolution of faith was made into them , and not tradition , as i have already manifested , and must not repeat . 6. whether it be in the least credible , since the books of scripture were supposed to contain the doctrines of faith , that every age of the church should look on it self as obliged absolutely to believe the doctrine of the precedent by vertue of an oral tradition ? for since they resolved their faith into the written books , how is it possible they should believe on the account of an oral tradition ? although then the apostles did deliver the doctrine of christ to all their disciples ; yet since the records of it were embraced in the church , men judged of the truth or falsehood of doctrines , by the conveniency or repugnancy of them to what was contained in those books . by which we understand that the obligation to believe what was taught by the precedent age , did not arise from the oral tradition of it , but by the satisfaction of the present age , that the doctrine delivered by it was the same with that contained in s●ripture . it is time now to return to mr. s. who proceeds still to manifest this obligation in posterity to believe what was delivered as matter of faith , by the precedent age of the church ; but the force of all is the same still ; viz. that otherwise one age must conspire to deceive the next . but the inconsequence of that , i have fully shewed already , unless he demonstrates it impossible for errors to come in any other way : for if we reduce the substance of what he saith to a syllogistical form , it comes to this ; where there is no possibility of error , there is an absolute obligation to faith ; but there is no possibility of error in the tradition of any age of the church . ergo in every age there is an absolute obligation to believe the tradition of the present church . the minor he thus proves . if no age of the church can be ignorant of what the precedent taught , or conspire to deceive the next , then there is no possibility of error coming into the tradition of the church in any age ; but the antecedent is true , and therefore the consequent . now who sees not that the force of all this , lyes not in proving the minor proposition , or that no age could conspire to deceive another ? but the consequence , viz. that no error can come into a church , but by a general mistake in one whole age , or the general imposture of it , which we utterly deny : and have shewed him already the falsness of it from his own concessions . and i might more largely shew it from those doctrin●s or opinions which they themselves acknowledge to have come into their church without any such general mistake or imposture , as the doctrines of papal insallibility , and the common belief of purgatory . the very same way that mr. white and mr. s. will shew us how these came in , we will shew him how many others came in as erroneous and scandalous as those are . for whether they account these matters of faith or no , it is certain many among them do , and that the far greatest number , who assert and believe them to be the doctrine of their church too . if therefore these might come in without one age mistaking or deceiving the next , why might not all those come in the same way which we ●harge upon them as the errors of their church ? and in the same manner that corrupt doctrines come in , may corrupt practises too , since these , as he saith , spring srom the other . he might therefore have saved himself the trouble of finding out how an acute wit , or great scholar would discover the weakness of this way . for without pretending to be either of these , i have found out another way of attaquing it , then mr. s. looked for : viz. from his own principles and concessions ; shewing how errors might come into a church , without a total deception or conspiracy in any one age . which if it be true , he cannot bind me to believe what ever he tells me the present church delivers , unless he can prove that this never came into the church as a speculation or private opinion , and from thence by degrees hath come to be accounted a point of faith . therefore his way of proof is now quite altered , and he cannot say we are bound to believe whatever the present church delivers ; for that which he calls the present church , may have admitted speculations and private opinions into doctrines of faith ; but he must first prove such doctrines delivered by christ or his apostles , and that from his time down to our age they have been received by the whole church for matters of faith ; and when he hath done this , as to any of the points in controversie between us , i will promise him to be his proselyte . but he ought still to remember that he is not to prove it impossible for one whole age to conspire to deceive the next ; but that supposing that , it is impossible for any errors to come into the tradition of the church . let us now see what mr. s. objects against those words i then used , against the demonstrating this way ; it is hard to conceive what reason should inforce it but such as proves the impossibility of the contrary ; and they have understandings of another mould from others who can conceive it impossible men should not think themselves obliged to believe and do all just as their predecessors . and whatever mr. s. sayes to the contrary , i cannot yet see , but that therein i argued from the very nature and constitution of the thing . for that which ● looked for , was a demonstration , which i supposed could not be unless the impossibility of the contrary were demonstrated . but if it be possible , for men , christians , nay romanists to believe on other accounts then the tradition of the precedent age , i pray what demonstration can there be , that men must think themselves obliged to believe and do all just as their predecessors did ? surely if mr. s's . fancy had not been very extravagant , he could never have thought here of mens being obliged to cut their beards , or wear such garters and hat-bands as their fore-fathers did . for do i not mention believing first and then doing ? by which it were easie to apprehend , that i meant matters of faith , and such practises as flow from them . neither was there any such crafty and sophistical dealing as he charges me with ; for i am content his doctrine be taken in his own terms ; and i have now given a larger and fuller account why i am far from being convinced by the way he hath used for resolving faith . passing by therefore his challenge , which i accept of , as long as he holds to the weapon of reason and civility , i come to consider his last enquiry , why i should come to doubt of such an obligation in posterity to believe their ancestors in matters of faith ; and he judiciously resolves it into a strange distortion of human nature , but such as it seems , is the proper effect of the protestants temper , which is , saith he , to chuse every one his faith , by his private judgement or wit working upon disputable words . which as far as we own it , is , not to believe what we see no ground for ; and if this be such a distortion of humane nature , i envy not mr. s's . uprightness and perfection . if he means that we build our faith on our private judgements in opposition to scripture or the universal tradition of the church in all ages , let him prove it evidently in one particular , and i engage for my self and all true protestants , we will renounce the belief of it . if he hath any thing further to object against the grounds of our religion , he knows where to attaque me ; let him undertake the whole ; or else acknowledge it a most unreasonable thing thus to charge falsities upon us , and then say we have nothing else to say for our selves . we pretend not to chuse our faith , but heartily embrace whatever appears to have been delivered by christ or his apostles ; but we know the church of rome too well to believe all which she would impose upon us , and are loth to have her chuse our religion for us , since we know she hath chosen so ill for her self . but if mr. s. will not believe me in saying thus , what reason have i to believe him in saying otherwise ? such general charges then signifie nothing , but every one must judge according to the reason on both sides . i now come to the last part of my task ; which is to shew , that this way is repugnant to common sense and experience , and that the church of rome hath apparently altered from what was the belief of former ages . to which purpose my words are : it is to no purpose to prove the impossibility of motion when i see men move ; no more is it to prove that no age of the church could vary from the preceding , when we can evidently prove that they have done it . and therefore this argument is intended only to catch easie minds that care not for a search into the history of the several ages of the church , but had rather sit down with a superficial subtilty , then spend time in further enquiries . but two things mr. s. tells me , are required ere i can see that their faith varies from the former . first to see what their church holds now , and then to see what the former church held before ; and he kindly tells me , if he sees any thing , i see neither well . it seems i want mr. s's . spectacles of oral tradition to see with ; but as yet i have no cause to complain of the want of them , but ● see much better without them , the● with them . he tells me , i cannot see what their present church holds , an● therefore i cannot assure any what w● held before ; because if i renounce tradition i take away all means of knowing . the reason why i cannot candidly see ( as he phrases it ) what their church holds now , is , because i cannot distinguish between faith and its explication , some schoolmen and the church . by which it seems it is impossible for me to know what their church holds concerning invocation of saints , worship of images , communion in one kind ; for those are the points i there mention , wherein it is evident that the church of rome hath receded from the doctrine and practise of the primitive church . or are these only the opinions and practises of some schoolmen among them , and not the doctrine and practise of their church ? but that we might come to some fuller state of these controversies , i wish m. s. would settle some sure way whereby we might know distinctly what are the doctrines and practises of their church . if the council of trent and roman-catechism , be said to be the rule of doctrine , i desire no other ; so that those may be interpreted by practises universally allowed among them . as when that council only defined that due honour be given to saints , the general practise of that church may tell us what they mean by that due honour ; and if that be not fair , i know not what is . but i see all the shift mr. s. hath , is , when he is pinched , . to say those are the opinions of schoolmen and private speculators , and not the doctrine of their church . and if such shifts as these are , must serve the turn , i should wonder if ever he be to seek for an answer . but the shortest answer of all would be that none but those of their church can know what she holds ; and therefore it is to no purpose for protestants to write against her : or it may be , that none but mr. s. and one or two more can tell ; for many among them say , those are the doctrines of their church which they deny to be . so that except mr. white and mr. s. and some very few demonstrators more , all the rest are schoolmen , private opinators , and not to be relyed on . but i cannot see what their church held formerly neither . no wonder at all of that ; for if i cannot see an object so near me as the present church , how can it be expected i should see one so much further off as the doctrine of former ages ? and his reason is so strong as may well perswade me out of one at least of my five senses . for , saith he , if i question tradition , i question whether there be any doctrine delivered , and so any fathers . and is not this argued like a demonstrator ? first he supposes there never was any way used in the world but oral tradition , and then strongly infers , if i deny that , i can know nothing . but i can yet hardly perswade my self that the fathers only sate in chimney corners teaching their children by word of mouth , and charging them to be sure to do so to theirs ; but as they loved preserving the doctrine of faith , they should have a great care never to write down a word of it . but why i wonder , should mr. s. think that if i do not allow of ●ral tradition , i must needs question whether there were any fathers ? i had thought i might have known there had ●een fathers by their children ; i mean ●he books they left behind them . but if ●ll mr. s. pleads for be only this , that ●o books can be certainly conveyed ●ithout tradition , he disputes with●ut an adversary ; but as i never op●ose this , so i am sure it doth him lite service . it is then from the books ●f the fathers that i find what the sense ●f the church of their age was , and ●om thence i have shewed how vastly ●ifferent the opinions and practises of ●e roman church are from those of ●e primitive . although then i may ●ot think my self obliged to believe ●ll that the present church delivers for ●atter of faith ; yet i hope i may find ●hat the opinions and practise of the ●ormer church were by the records ●hat are left of it ; and the reason ●hy i cannot think any one obliged ●o believe what every age of the ●hurch delivers , is , because i think no man obliged to believe contradictions ; and i see the opinions and practises of several ages apparently contrary to each other . well , but i call this way a superficial subtilty : and so i think it still ; so little have mr. s's . demonstrations wrought upon me . but , saith he , is that which is wholly built on the nature of things superficial ? no ; but that which pretends to be so built , may . and of that nature i have shewed thi● way to be , and not the former . bu● that i may not think him superficia● as well as his way , he puts a profound question to me , what do i think controversie is ? and that he may the better let me know what it is , he answers himself . i deal plainly with you , saith he ; you may take it to be an a● of talking , and i think you do so , though you will not profess it ; but i take it to be a noble science . but to let him see that i will deal as plainly with him , as he doth with me , i will profess it , that i not only think controversie as usually managed , but some mens way of demonstrating ( mr. s. may easily know whom i mean ) to be a meer art of ●alking , and nothing else . but he takes ●t to be a noble science : yes doubtless , ●f mr. s. manage it , and he be the ●udge of it himself . his meaning i ●uppose is , by his following words , ●hat be goes upon certain principles , and ●e do not . we have already seen how ●ertain his principles have been , and i ●hould be somewhat ashamed of my ●eligion if i had no better . but what ●ur rule of faith is , hath been so amply ●iscoursed already by you , and that in ●r . s's . clearing method , that nothing ● left for me to do , but to touch at ●hat remains , and concludes this an●er . i had the better to illustrate ●he weakness of that argument from ●ral tradition , brought an instance in ●hat case parallel , viz. that if one ages ●elivering to another would prove that ●e faith of christ was in every age ●nalterable , because no age did testifie ●ny such alteration to be in it ; by ●he same argument the world might be ●roved eternal , because no age did ●ver testifie to another , that the world ●as ever otherwise then it is . so that ●f oral tradition were only to be relied on , there could be no evidence given of the worlds being ever otherwise then it is , and consequently the world must be believed to have been alwayes what we see it is . this a● far as i can apprehend , is a clear and distinct ratiocination , and purposely designed to prove that we must admit o● other rules to judge of alterations i● the church by besides oral tradition ▪ but mr. s. ( in his own expression ) strangely roving from the mark i aime● at , professes there is not a tittle in i● parallel to his medium , nay that he never saw in his life more absurdities couche● in fewer words . but i must take al● patiently from a man who still perche● on the specifical nature of things and never flags below the sphere of science . yet by his good leave , he either apprehends not , or wilfully mistakes my meaning : for my argument doth no● proceed upon the belief of the world● eternity , which in his answer he run● wholly upon as far as eighthly and lastly but upon the evidence of oral tradition as to no discernable alteration in an● age of it . for the question between us● is , whether in matters of alteration i● the fa● or practice of the church we are bound to rely only on the testimony of oral tradition ; so that if no age can be instanced in wherein any alteration was made , and this delivered by that age , then we are bound to believe there hath been no alteraration since christ and the apostles times : now i say , if this ●old good , i will prove the world eternal by the same argument ; taking this for our principle , that we are bound to rely only on oral tradition in the case , originally derived from the matter of fact seen by those of the first age ; for that which never was otherwise then it is , is eternal ; but we cannot know by oral tradition that the world ever was otherwise then it is : for no age of the world can be instanced in , wherein we have any testimony of any alteration that was in it ▪ either then we must believe that the world ever was what it is , i. e. eternal ; or else we must say , that we are not to rely barely on oral tradition in this case , but we must judge whether the world were made or no , by other mediums of scripture and reason . and this was all which i aimed at , viz. to shew that where there is no evidence from oral tradition , yet if there be scripture and reason , there is sufficient ground for our faith to stand upon . and so i apply it to the present case ; though we could not prove barely from the tradition of any one age that there had been any alteration in the faith or practice of the church ; yet if i can prove that there hath been such from scripture and reason , this is sufficient for me to believe it . and now i dare appeal to the indifferent reader , ●ether thi● be so full of absurdities , or it b● such a rambling chimerical argumen● ( as he calls it ) no two pieces ● which hang together with themselves 〈◊〉 any thing else . which being expressions of as great modesty as science ▪ i am content mr. s. should bear away the honour of them and his demo●strations together . the last thing he quarrels wit● me for , is , that i say , if we can ●v dently prove that there have been al● rations in the church , then it is to ● purpose to prove that impossible which we see actually done . and this appears not only because the scripture supposes a degeneracy in the christian church , which could never be , if every age of the church did insa●libly believe and practise as the precedent up to christs time did : but because we can produce clear evidence that some things are delivered by the present church which must be brought in by some age since the time of christ. for which i refer the reader to what i had said about communion in one kind , invocation of saints , and worship of images : in all which , i say , i had proved evidently that they were not in use in some ages of the christian church ; and it is as evident that these are delivered by the present church , and therefore this principle must needs be false . in answer to this , mr. s. wishes , i would tell him first what evidence means , whether a strong fancy or a demonstration ? i mean that which is enough to perswade a wise man who judges according to the clearest reason , which i am sure is more then ever his demonstrations will do . but it is a pleasant spectacle to see how mr. s. layes about him at my saying that the scripture supposes a degeneracy in the christian church . incomparably argued ! saith he ; why , see we not the place ? does it evidently speak of faith or manners , the universal church or particular persons ? but be it in faith , be it universal , does it suppose this degeneracy already past , which is only proper to your purpose , or yet to come ? that is , does it say there must be a total apostacy in faith before the year 1664. ? alas he had forgot this . most incomparably answered ! for if the degeneracy be in 1665. or any years a●ter , what becomes of m. s's . d●monstration then , that no errors could come into the church ? but it seems his demonstration holds but till 1664. and i easily believe an other year will never believe the truth of it . but if such a thing as a degeneracy be possible , how then stands the infallibility of tradition ? when there can be no degeneracy without falling from the doctrine and practices of christ and his apostles . but that such a degeneracy hath already been in that which calls it self the catholick church , and that both in faith and manners , i shall referr mr. s. to the learned author of the late idea of antichristianism , and synopsis prophetica , where he may find enough to perswade him that his demonstration was far from holding so long as 1664. and now i leave the reader to judge whether the foregoing evidences against the infallibility of oral tradition , or mr. s's . demonstrations have the greater force of reason in them . and if he will not stoop so far from the height of his perch as to take notice of what i have elsewhere said , i am resolved to let him see i am not at all concerned about it : i begin to understand him so well by this appendix , that i can give my self a reasonable account why he thought it not sit to meddle with any other part of my book . but if mr. s. be resolved not to answer any of the testimonies i there produce , unless i single them out and print them at the end of this answer , ( i. e. remove them from that evidence which attends them in the series of the discourse ) i can only say , he is the most imperious answerer i have met with , who is resolved never to deal with an adversary , but on his own unreasonable terms . thus , heartily wishing mr. s's . science as great as his opinion of it , and a good effect of our endeavours to promote the one , by removing the other , i am sir , your affectionate friend and servant , edward stillingfleet . london . june 28. finis . postscript . sir , since the dispatch of the former papers , i have met with another treatise , wherein i find my self concerned , written by the author of fiat lux , the title whereof is diaphanta : i am afraid the title affrights you ; for i assure you it is the most formidable thing in his whole book . but the man is a very modest man and hugely different from mr. s's . humor ; for he is so far from offering to demonstrate the grounds of faith ; that all he pretends to in the title of his book , i● to excuse catholick religion against the opposition of several adversaries . what fault i pray hath the catholick religion committed , that it must now come to be excused inst●ad of being defended ? but when i look into that part which concerns my self , i presently understand the meaning of it , which is not to excuse catholick religion , but themselves , for not being able to defend it . for he very ingenuously tells us , that faith is firm and constant , though all his talk for it be miserably weak : i. e. he is sure they have an excellent religion , though he knows not what to say for it ; and their faith is a very good faith , but it hath not yet had the good fortune to be understood by them . for he acknowledges , that as often as they dispute , they are beyond the business , ( so may any one believe , who reads their late books , ) which is in effect to say , there is no way left of disputing any longer with adversaries about their faith ; only they must believe it stoutly themselves ; but it is to no purpose to offer to defend it . nay , it doth their faith a great deal of mischief ; for , saith he , in reading controversies we see not so much the nature of the faith , as the wit of him who opposes or defends it . from whence we may easily gather what unspeakable mischief they do their cause by writing for it . by which expressions we may guess , at what a low ebbe the defence of their faith is among them : for the way now taken to defend it , is by disowning the defenders of it , and by saying , that they only vent their own opinions ; and though we confute them never so much , yet their faith holds good still . was ever a good cause driven to such miserable shifts as these are , especially among those who pretend to wit and learning ? one , he saith , t. c. vents a private opinion of his own , and it is not a pin matter whether it stand or fall ; another , he saith , the same of i. s. a third of j. v. c. and yet for all this , their religion is very firm and sure , and they all at perfect agreement about it . is this the victory over me mr. s. mentions to be so easie a thing ? i see that by the same figure mr. s. calls his way of arguing demonstration , running out of the field shall be accounted conquering . for i never saw any person do it more openly then this author does . for he plainly confesses , that his catholick gentleman went quite besides his business , that he built upon indefensible principles , that his theological ratiocination was indeed pretty , but too weak to hold . and are not we hugely too blame , if we do not cry up such mighty conquerors as these are ? truly sir , i expect the very same answer should be returned to your book ; that mr. s's . argument , is a pretty theological ratiocination ; and that your answer is not unwitty : but though that way will not hold , another will. thus when they are beaten off infallibility , they run to tradition : and when they are again beaten off tradition , then back again to infallibility . so that the short of all their answers is , though such a one cannot defend our faith , yet i can ; though i cannot , yet the fai●●s firm and constant still . i wonder what their superiors think of this ●ay of proceeding among them ; we ●hould imagine if they be so weak ●s they say themselves , they had much ●etter keep them from appearing ●broad and exposing their cause so ●idiculously to contempt . but it may ●e , they think their faith is the bet●er as well as their devotion , for their ●gnorance : and that it would be a ●ighty disparagement to their cause , ●or such silly people to be able to de●end it . it is enough for them to ●dmire it themselves , and to say as ●heir common people use to do , though ●hey cannot defend it , yet there are ●ome that can . and although it ●ay be no particular person can do ● , yet their cause is able to defend ● self . but for all that i can see , by ●ck kind of answers , the intention of ●hem , is , to intreat us , not to tri●mph over the weakness of their pre●nt writers , but to wait till the ●ause it self thinks fit to write . and when it doth so , they may expect further answer ; but it were a grea● piece of cruelty for us to hasten the● ruine , who fall so fast before us b● each others pens . finis . errata . page 16. l. 16. for that , r. than : p. 2● l. 8. for errors , r. concerns . books printed for , and sold by henry mortlock at the sign of the phoenix in st. pauls church-yard near the little north door . a rational account of the ●rounds of protestant religion ; being a vindication of the lord-achbishop of canterburyes relation of a conference , &c. from the pretended answer by t. c. wherein the true grounds of faith are cleared , and the false discovered ; the church of england justified from the imputation of schism ; and the most important particular controversies between us and those of the church of rome thoughly examined : by edward stillingflee● b. d. origines sacrae ; or a rational account of the grounds of christian faith , as to the truth and divine authority of the scriptures , and the matters therein contained : by the sam author : the third edition correcte● and amended . irenicum : a weapon-salve for the churches wounds : by the same author . shecinah : a demonstration of the divine presence in places of religious worship : by j. stillingfleet rector of beckingham in lincolnshire . the moral philosophy of the stoicks bain upon the ephesians . knowledge and practice : or a plain discourse of the chief things necessary to be known , believed and practised in order to salvation : by sa● cradock b. d. the second edition corrected and enlarged , &c. the believers duty towards the spirit ; the sprits office towards believers by h. h. b. d. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a61594-e150 §. 1. p. 236. p. 202. §. 2. p. 203. p. 204. § 3. §. 4. p. 205. §. 1. 5. §. 6. p. 203. §. 7. §. 8. p. 05. p. 206. p. 207. §. 9. p. 208. §. 10. de fide & th●ol . tract . 2 , sect . 22. p. 158. ibid. p. 209. tabul . suffrag . p. 318. §. 11. p. 210. §. 12. p. 211. p. 212. p. 213. p. 214. §. 13. p. 216. §. 14. p. 236. p. 217. p. 218. p. 223. §. 15. p. 224. part. 1. chap. ● . §. 16. ● . 229. &c. p. 231. p. 234. p. 235. p. 236. p. 237. §. 17. p. 238. p. 239. §. 18. p ; 240. p. 241. p. 242. p. 243. §. 19. p. 244. notes for div a61594-e14160 p. 210. p. 2●9 . dr. stillingfleets principles giving an account of the faith of protestants / considered by n.o. cressy, serenus, 1605-1674. 1671 approx. 154 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 59 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-11 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a34966 wing c6892 estc r31310 11887004 ocm 11887004 50386 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a34966) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 50386) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1000:4) dr. stillingfleets principles giving an account of the faith of protestants / considered by n.o. cressy, serenus, 1605-1674. [12], 100, [5] p. printed at paris by the widow of antonie christian and charles guillery, [paris] : mdclxxi [1671] errata begins on p. 100 and continues on p. 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( being a rejoynder to a reply of an vnknown catholick gentleman engaged in some former controuersy with him ) at the end of the same book hath annexed certain principles , drawn up , as he saith , to giue an account of the protestant-faith . now as touching the main book , it would be inciuility and injustice in any other to inuade the right of his worthy aduersary by , vntertaking an answer thereto . to his aduersaries answer therefore , as the times permitt , and to gods mercy i leaue him : if perhaps he may repent , and endeavour some satisfaction 1. for his accusing the whole catholick church of god , both western and eastern ( for the same practise as to seuerall of his idolatries are in both ) for so many ages before luthers time of idolatry , and this idolatry as gross as that of heathens : which surely must vn-church this great body , and quite divorce this adulteress from christ ( for we cannot but think but the doctor will maintain the teaching so manifold an idolatry in this church to be fundamentall errour ) 2. for his representing the highest deuotions practised from all antiquity in the same church , mysticall theology , contemplation , heauenly inspirations , all those supernaturall favours and familiar communications of the diuine majesty to purer soules receiued in prayer , and continued still in his church ( as also miracles are , and so attested in her histories ) but vnknown indeed to strangers , and foolishness to greeks , his representing all these i say , as ridiculous fanaticisms , and impostures : though he knowes that catholicks account themselues obliged to submitt all these things to the judgment of superiours : a duty vnknown to fanaticks . and what may we expect next from such ( who are to many ) as make ill use of such books as his , but that the frequent allocutions of gods holy spirit mentioned in scripture , the visions , reuelations extasies and spirituall vnions of the saints there , our lords , ego in eis , & tu in me , ut sint consummati in unum ; and s. pauls , viuo , non ego , sed in me christus , will shortly become matter of drollery and bouffonry ? 3. for his making so many of gods glorious saints in heauen [ quorum causam discernat deus ] the subject of his scorn and derision . by all which he has fitted his book for the sport and recreation of the atheist and debauched ; from whose applause , with the regret and horrour mean while of all piously disposed , he may receive his reward . the reuisall of these , not very gratefull , subjects of his book , therefore i leaue to the worthy gentleman pre-engaged in these disputes . but for the now mentioned principles separately adjoyned at the end , as euery catholick has an equall right to apply himself to the examining of them ; so seeing that from these it is that such bad fruits , of forsaking first , and then censuring and condemning their mother the church , doe grow , it may , with gods blessing , proue a seruice not altogether vnbeneficiall , to discouer their weakness : especially since by such a discouery his whole preceding book will be demonstrated vnconcluding against gods church . and this is here the rather , and with greater confidence vndertaken , because , since it is impiety to deny in generall that true christian faith hath a certain , vnmoueable foundation ; in case therefore it shall appear that the foundation here layd by the doctor is but a meer trembling quiksand on which a christian cannot without a dreadfull danger to his soule build his faith , namely , an errability in the guides of gods church , and ( inerrability in all necessary doctrins contained in scripture by him attributed indefinitely to all sober christians , who without any necessary consulting or depending on such teachers as haue been instituted by god shall vse their sincere endeauours to find out such truths ] this foundation , i say ( not scripture , but each priuate mans sense of scripture ) being ruined , it will vnauoydably follow , that the only certain way not to be misled , will be the submitting our internall assent and belief to church-authority which those who haue dissented from , and refused to stand to before luthers time haue been always marked with the name of hereticks . where by church-authority , i mean in generall that superior and more comprehensiue body of the ecclesiasticall hierarchy ; which in any dissent and division of the clergy , according to the church canons ought to be obeyed ; and which hath hitherto in her supremest and most generally accepted councills in all ages from the beginning required such submission vnder penalty of anathema , and justly assumed to her self the title of the onely authenticall interpreter of scripture , and authoritatiue teacher of diuine verities . a submission this is , which no particular church diuided from this more vniuersall can with the least pretence of reason challenge from her subjects , since she her self ( and particularly the church of england ) refused the same to all the authority extant in the world when she separated her self . and this being obserued by m r. chillingworth ( a schollar , herein , of the socinians ) and by many other diuines of late vpon whom hls book hath had too must influence , they accordingly are forced to disclaime that submission which the church of england formerly had challenged in her canons , and seuerely , euen with ecclesiasticall death , punished the refusers vntill they should repent ( not their externall disobedience or contradiction , but ) their wicked errour . the 39. articles being declared in the same 5 , canon to haue been by this church agreed vpon for the auoyding diuersities of opinions , and the establishing of consent touching true religion . now that these later divines do decline such submission , i need goe no further then to doctor stillingfleets rationall account for proof , where the lord primat of ireland is cited thus , the church of england doth not not define any of these questions ( speaking of the 39. articles ) as necessary to be belieued , but only binds her sonnes for peace sake not to oppose them . and again , we do not suffer any man to reject the 39. articles of the church of england at his pleasure yet neither do we oblige any man to belieue them , but only not to contradict them . thus they speake of late , and thus m r. chilling worth hath cleared the way before them , in abridging thus the just authority of the primitiue councills , the fathers of the church ( saith he ) in after times might haue just cause to declare their judgment touching the sense of some generall articles of the creed . but to oblige others to receiue her declarations under pain of damnation ( or anathema ) what warrant they had i know not . he that can shew , either that the church of all ages was to haue this authority ; or that it continued in the church for some ages , and then expired ; he that can shew either of these things , let him : for my part i cannot . yet i willingly confess the iudgment of a councill though not infallible yet so far directiue and obliging , that without apparent reason to the contrary it may be sin to reject it , at least not to afford it an outward submission for publick peace sake . now by this way our late english diuines seem to haue brought the authority of their church into a great disreputation and wayning condition , and to haue excused , yea justified all sects which haue , or shall separate from her . for indeed what fault can it be to forsake the doctrine of a church , whose teaching none is bound to belieue or obey out of conscience ? and which quietly suffers , yea liberally rewards her sons , while they thus disparage her ? these principles therefore layd by the doctor , which , by aduancing the clearness of the rule so as to inferr the vselesness of a guide , do seem to supplant what soeuer authority of any church , are here weighed in the following considerations . the great importance of which subject requiring expressions serious , modest , and euery way vnlike those made vse of by the doctor in his book , such haue been studiously endeauoured here , without the least resentment of seuerall vnciuill and vnmerited aspersions which in the sayd book the doctor hath cast vpon seuerall among vs : and the more moderate any haue bene the more immoderately haue they bene traduced . god almighty inspire into all our hearts a sincere loue of peace and truth . amen . d r. stillingfleets principles . giving an account of the faith of protestants , considered . 1. the principles , &c. which doctor stilling fleet , has thought expedient to expose at the end of his book , to render an account of the protestants faith ; are sett down in three ranks . the first consists of six principles , agreed on both sides . the second contains thirty propositions for enquiring into the particular ways which god hath made choyce of for revealing his will to mankind : of which propositions some are also principles , partly agreed on , and partly not ; and some are deductions , from them : but we , following the generall title , will call them all , principles . in the third rank , six corollaries or inferences are deduced from the fore-going propositions , to the advantage of the cause of protestants against catholicks . to all which , we here offer the following considerations . i. principles . agreed on all sides . 1. that there is a god , from whom man and all other creatures had their beginning . 2. that the notion of god doth imply , that he is a being absolutely perfect ; and therefore iustice , goodness , wisdom and truth , must be in him in the highest perfection . 3. that man receaving his being from god , is thereby bound to obey his will , and consequently is liable to punishment , in case of disobedience . 4. that in order to mans obeying the will of god , it is necessary that he know what it is ; for which some manifestation of the will of god is necessary : both that man may know what he hath to do , and that god may justly punish him , if he do it not . 5. what ever god reveals to man , is infallibly true , and being intended for the rule of mans obedience , may be certainly known to be his will. 6. god cannot act contrary to those essentiall attributes of iustice , wisdom , goodnesse and truth in any way which he makes choyce of , to make known his will unto man by . it were impiety to question any of these principles , which are , or ought to be presupposed not only to the christian , but all manner of religions . we will therefore proceed to the second rank , consisting of 30. propositions ; which we will sett down singly and separatly , annexing to each a respective examination , or consideration . ii. an enquiry into the particular ways which god hath made choyce of for the revealing his will to mankind . i. principle . 1. an entire obedience to the will of god , being agreed to be the condition of mans happinesse ; no other way of revelation is in it self necessary to that end , then such whereby man may know what the will of god is . this is granted . ii. principle . 2. man being fram'd a rationall creature , capable of reflecting vpon himself , may antecedently to any externall revelation , certainly know the being of god , and his dependence vpon him , and those things which are naturally pleasing to him ; else there could be no such thing as a law of nature , or any principles of natural religion . this may be granted . iii. principle . 3. all supernaturall and externall revelation , must suppose the truth of naturall religion ; for vnlesse we be antecedently certain that there is a god , and that we are capable of knowing him , it is impossible to be certain that god hath revealed his will to vs by any supernaturall means . let this be granted . iv. principle . 4. nothing ought to be admitted for divine revelation , which ouerthrows the certainty of those principles which must be antecedently supposed to all divine revelation : for that were to ouerthrow the means whereby we are to judge concerning the truth of any divine revelation . let this also be granted . v. principle . 5. there can be no other means imagined , whereby we are to judg of the truth of divine revelation , but a faculty in vs of discerning truth and falshood in matters proposed to our belief ; which if we do not exercise in judging the truth of divine reuelation , we must be imposed vpon by euery thing which pretends to be soe . here , if the doctor means , that every christian hath a faculty in him , which , as to all revelations what soeuer proposed to him , can discern the true and divine , from others that are not so ; and when a revelation , certainly divine , is capable of several senses , can discern the true sense from the false , all this exclusively to , and independently on , the instruction of church-authority : this proposition is not true . for then none will need ( as experience shews they do ) to repayre to any other teacher to instruct him , when a dubious revelation , or when the sense of any divine revelation , is controuersed , which is the true revelation or which the sense of it . it is abundantly sufficient , that eyther wee our selues , or some others appointed by our lord to guide vs , and more easily discouerable by vs , have a faculty , ayded by the divine assistance , to discern truth and falshood in those revelations proposed , wherein wee our selues cannot ; that so particular christians in their following these guides , may not be imposed vpon by every thing which pretends to be divine revelation . vi. principle . 6. the pretence of infallibility in any person of society of men , must be judged in the same way , that the truth of a divine revelation is ; for that infallibility being challenged by vertue of a supernaturall assistance , and for that end to assure men what the will of god is , the same means must be vsed for the tryall of that , as for any other supernaturall way of gods making known his will to men . here , if the doctor means , that by the same way or means as we come to know the truth of other divine revelations , we may come to know the truth also of this , viz : the infallibility in necessaries of a society , or church ; i consent to it . but not to this , that by all or only the same ways or means by which we may come to know one divine revelation , we may , or must come to know any other , or this , of church-infallibility . for some divine revelation may come first to our knowledg by tradition ; another first by scripture ; another by the church . see below , consid. on the 17. principle . vii . principle . 7. it being in the power of god to make choyce of severall ways of revealing his will to vs , we ought not to dispute from the attributes of god the necessity of one particular way to the exclusion of all others , but we ought to enquire what way god himself hath chosen : and whatever he hath done , we are sure cannot be repugnant to infinit iustice , wisdom , goodness , and truth . this is granted . viii . principle . 8. whatever way is capable of certainly conveying the will of god to vs , may be made choyce of by him for the means of making known his will in order to the happiness of mankind ; so that no argument can be sufficient a priori to prove , that god cannot choose any particular way to reveal his mind by , but such which evidently prooues the insufficiency of that means for conueying the will of god to vs. this likewise is granted . ix . principle . 9. there are severall ways conceaveable by vs , how god may make known his will to vs ; eyther by immediate voyce from heaven , or inward inspiration to every particular person , or inspiring some to speak personnally to others , or assisting them with an infallible spirit in writing such books , which shall contain the will of god for the benefit of distant persons and future ages . to these seuerall ways by which god reveals his will , the doctor might have added this one more , as a truth , and in case such writings in some things be not clear to all capacities , ( as the writings of moses his law were not , nor any writings though possibly yet hardly can be , when written at seuerall times , by seueral persons , on seuerall and those particular occasions , in different styles , &c. ) by our lords giuing a commission to , and leauing a standing authority in the successors of these holy pen-men to expound these their writings to the people , and by affording them for euer such a divine assistance , as in nothing necessary to misinterpret them . x. principle . 10. if the will of god cannot be sufficiently declared to men by writing , it must eyther be because no writing can be intelligible enough for that end , or that it can neuer be known to be written by men infallibly assisted : the former is repugnant to common sense , for words are equally capable of being understood , spoken or written , the later ouerthrows the possibility of the scriptures being known to be the word of god. this is granted . xi . principle . 11. it is agreed among all christians , that although god in the first ages of the world did reveal his mind to men immediatly by a voice of secret inspirations , yet afterwards , hee did communicate his mind to some immediatly inspired to write his will in books to be preserued for the benefit of future ages , and particularly that these books of the new testament which we now receaue were so written by the apostles and disciples of iesus-christ . the doctor declaring how god after the first ages was pleas'd to communicate his mind by the writings ( of moses &c. ) might and ought to haue added as a truth , that he also left a iudge in case of any controuersy arising about the sense of those writings , to whose sentence the people were to stand , and do according to it vnder paine of death , as the same writings inform vs. xii . principle . 12. such writings hauing been receiued by the christian church of the first ages as divine and infallible , and being deliuered down as such to vs by an vniuersall consent of all ages since , they ought to be owned by vs as the certain rule of faith , whereby we are to judge what the will of god is in order to our saluation , vnlesse it appear with an euidence equall to that whereby we believe those books to be the word of god , that they were neuer intended for that end , because of their obscurity or imperfection . here , these words ( whereby we are to judge ) being vnderstood not vniuersally , of all christians , but of those to whom amongst christians , this office of judging in dubious cases , is delegated by our lord : or vnderstood vniuersally , that is , so farr as the sense of these scriptures is to all men clear and vndisputable , this proposition is granted . xiii . principle . 13. although we cannot argue against any particular way of reuelation from the necessary attributes of god , yet such a way as writing being made choyce of by him we may justly say , that it is repugnant to the nature of the designe , and the wisdome and goodnesse of god to giue infallible assurance to persons in writing his will , for the benefit of mankind , if those writings may not be vnderstood by all persons who sincerely endeauour to know the meaning of them in all such things as are necessary for their saluation . this principle is vnsound . because if god ( who according to the doctors 7. principle , may reueal his will in , or without writing , after what manner he pleaseth ) may reveal it in these writings so , as that in many things it may be clear only to some persons more versed in the scriptures and in the churches traditional sense of them , and more assisted from aboue according to their employment , which persons he hath appointed to instruct the rest , and these to learne it of them , in those places or points wherein to these persons gods will is obscure : then , i say , though these writings be not such as that euery one may attaine the understanding of them by his owne endeavours , yet if he may by others , namely , his instructors , this also consists very well with the diuine designe , with his wisdome and goodnesse , as also it would , had he left no writings at all , but only teachers to deliuer his will perpetually to his church . concerning these vvritings pretended by the doctor to be intelligible by all persons , &c. i find as it seems to me , a contrary principle aduanced by doctor field , ( a person of no small authority in the church of england ) in his preface to the large volume he thought it necessary to write on the church . seeing ( sayth he ) the controuersies of religion ( that is , in things of great consequence , as he says afterwards ) in our times are grown in number so many , and in matter so intricate , that few haue time and leasure , fewer strength of vnderstanding to examine them ; vvhat remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence , but diligently to search out which amongst all the societies of the world is that blessed company of holy ones , that houshold of faith ▪ that spouse of christ and church of the liuing god , vvhich is ihe pillar and ground of truth , that so he may embrace her communion , follow her directions , and rest in her iudgment ? thus doctor field ; who in his last words ( rest in her iudgment ) speaks home enough , and discouers the only efficacious way of curing sects . and see also vvhether this doth not confront the doctors 29. principle , church-infallibility there being changed into church-auctority , and the principle being applyed to priuate mens practise . and what need is there of bishops , presbyters , or any ecclesiastical pastors among protestants , as to the office of teaching or expounding these writings , if these in all necessaries are clear to all persons who sincerely endeauour to know the meaning of them , i mean , exclusiuely to their repairing to these pastors for the learning of it ? and doth not the doctor here to euacuate the infallibility of the churches gouernors introduce an infallibility or inerrabillity of euery particular christian in all points necessary , if such christians will , that is , if only he shall sincerely endeauour to know the meaning of them ? and moreouer of the sincerity of this his endeauour also i suppose the doctor will allow any one may be certain ( else how can the mind of a poore illiterate countrey-man be at rest , who can neyther trust to the faith of his guides , nor the sufficiency of his own industry ) for surely this sincere , is not all possible , endeauour ; such as is learning the languages , perusing commentators , &c. but as mr chillingworth ( who anchored his whole religion vpon it ) states this point , namely , such a measure thereof , as humane prudence and ordinary discretion , ( their abilities and opportunities , and all other things considered ) shall aduise . and thus , such a clearness in necessaries must the scriptures haue as suits with the very lowest capacities . such a clearnesse , i say , euen to all articles of the athanasian creed , if these be esteemed necessaries ; and euen as to the consubstantiality of the son with god the father . in which notwithstanding the whole body of socinians dares to oppose all antiquity , vpon pretence of cleare scripture to the contrary . but then the doctor is desired to consider , that if euery christian may become thus infallible in necessaries from 1. a clear rule , 2. a due industry vsed , 3. and a certainty that it is so vsed ; may not the church-gouernors still much rather be allowed infallible , and so retain still their infallible guide-ship ; and the people also , the more clear the rule of faith is proued to be , the more securely be referred to their direction ? and haue we not all reason to presume that the chief guides of the church ( euen a general councill of them , or if it be but a major part of this councill , t is sufficient ) in their consults concerning a point necessary to saluation deliuered in scripture , vse at least so much endeauour ( for more needs not ) as a plain rustick doth , to vnderstand the meaning of it ; and also the like sincerity ? for what they define for others , they define for themselues also , and their saluation is as much concern'd , as any other mans is , in their mistakes . and next : why may not these gouernors , vpon such certainty of a sincere endeauour and clearness of the rule , take vpon them to define these points , and enjoyn an assent to , and belief of them to their subjects ; especially since it is affirmed , that all those , from whom they require such obedience , if they please to vse a sincere endeauour , may be certain thereof , as well as they ? and are we not here again arriued at church-infallibility , if not from extraordinary diuine assistance , yet from the clearness of the rule ? only we must suppose such sincere endeauour in the church , as the doctor allows may be in euery priuat man. and thus does not his conditionall infallibility of particular persons in necessaries , the condition being so easy , necessarily inferr a morall impossibility of the churches erring in them ? which ought the rather to be admitted by them : since some of their divines , to make this their problem the more iustifiable , that the scriptures in all necessaries are clear to all persons ▪ , think it a safe way in the next place to contract these necessaries to the apostles creed . but after all , supposing these gouernors in stating some points fallible enough : i cannot hence gather any just relaxation of their subjects submission of their judgment to them , vpon pretence of clearness , because such fallibility of their superiors in some points can , reasonably , be supposed to arise from nothing else , but some obscurity in the rule , which must be greater still to their subjects : and then , what more fitting and ordinary , then in matters of consequence to follow a prudent and experienced , though fallible , persons direction , rather then our own ? lastly , suppose this granted , that the scriptures may be vnderstood by all persons , in all things necessary ( and so an infallible guide vselesse ; ) yet i see not what aduantage the doctor can make of this principle for the protestant religion . for since the sence of scripture is now de facto debated between catholiks and protestants about so many necessary points of faith , the doctor cannot with truth or charity affirm the sense of these scriptures clear to be vnderstood on the protestants side to all those who sincerely endeauour to know their meaning , where the major part of christendom vnderstands their meaning contrary , as he must grant they doe in all those hee accounts the common errours both of the greek and roman church : ( a large catalogue of which may be found in many protestant authours ) and will he charge all these as defectiue in a sincere endeauour ? but rather such sincere endeauour being indifferently allowd to all parties , he ought to pronounce the sence of scripture to be clear , if on any , on that side as the major part doth apprehend it : which certainly is not the protestant . for example : how can the doctor rationally maintain this text hoc est corpus meum , so often repeated with out any variation of the terms , to bear a sense clear on the protestants side ; that is , that the eucharist is not in a litterall or proper sence the body of christ ; when as they are vnderstood in a litterall sence by much the major part of the christian world , not onely the western but eastern churches also ( as monsieur claude concedes to his worthy aduersary monsieur arnaud ) to which also may be added half the body of the protestants , namely , all the lutherans . now all these haue vsed their senses , and weighed the arguments drawn from them , as well as protestants . but if the doctor put this text so much controuerted among obscure scriptures ( which therefore not containing any point necessary to saluation , saluation is not endangered by it ) if a christian should err or be mistaken in their sense , then how comes this great body of christians meerly by the mistake of its sence in thinking that our lord meaneth as the words sound , that the eucharist is his very proper body , and so in adoring ( as they ought , should it be so ) how come they , i say , to committ such grosse idolatry , as the doctor in his book chargeth them with , and so all without repentence , miscarry in their saluation ? and if from a major part of the present church interpreting scripture an appeal be made to a major part of the ancient church , pretended to interpret them on the protestants side ; neither will this relieue the doctor , because since this also ( on what side antiquity stands ) is a thing in controuersy , for deciding of it we are to presume here likewise that a sincere endeauour being allowd to all parties to vnderstand the sense of the former church , this also stands on that side as the major part apprehends it . now the present catholick church ( being a major part ) professes to follow the sence of the ancient in interpreting scripture . xiv , principle . 14. to suppose the bookes so written to be imperfect , that is , that any things necessary to be heleeued or practised are not contained in them , is either to charge the first author of them with fraud , and not deliuering his whole mind ; or the writers with insincerity in not setting it downe ; and the whole christian church of the first ages with folly , in belieuing the fullnesse and perfection of the scriptures in order to saluation . the two inferences made here by the doctor are faulty . for 1. neither can the first author of scripture be charged with fraud , if he haue deliuered part of his mind only by writing , and part some other way : as the doctour ( prop. 7. 8. 9. ) acknowledges he might : vnless it be manifest that he hath obliged himselfe by a promise of delivering his whole mind by writing , which is not shewed . 2. neither can the writers of scripture be charged with insincerity , if , so much as they were inspired with to set downe and register there , they haue done it . meanwhile as touching the perfection of holy scriptures , catholiks now , as the holy fathers anciently , do grant , that they contain all points of faith which are simply necessary to be of all persons belieued for attaining saluation . and of this doctor field may be a witness , who saith , for matters of faith , we may conclude according to the judgment of the best and most learned of our adversaries themselues , that there is nothing to be belieued , which is not either expresly contained in scripture , or at least by necessary consequence from thence , and by other things euident in the light of nature , or in the matter of fact , to be concluded . xv. principle . 15. these writings being owned as containing in them the whole will of god so plainly reuealed , that no sober enquirer can misse of what is necessary for saluation ; there can be no necessity supposed of any infallible society of men either to attest and explain these writings among christians , any more then there was for some ages before christ of such a body of men among the iewes , to attest and explain to them the writings of moses or the prophets . the consequence here is good , viz. that supposing the will of god is so clearly reuealed in these writings , that no sober enquirer can misse of knowing what is necessary to saluation , there can be then no necessity of any infallible society . but the supposition of such a clearenesse , fayles , as the 13. prosiosition , on which it is grounded , doth . it failes , i say , in the sense the doctor deliuers it , who referrs his sober enquirer only to the writings themselues for information in all necessaries , without consulting his spirituall pastours for the right explication of them . nor doth the doctors language any where run thus , that the will of god is so plainly revealed in these writings ( for then he should say so obscurely rather ) that no sober man , not who repairs to the writings , but who enquires of , and learns from his spirituall pastours the right sence of them , shall miss , &c. but if the supposition in the doctors sence be allowed for true , there seems to follow something more then the doctor deduceth , and which perhaps he would not admit : viz. the non-necessity of any society at all , fallible or infallible , to explain these writings , as to necessaries ( all christians being herein clearly taught from god in these scriptures , or this their rule ) vnless perhaps these teachers may be said to be left by our lord for others to supersede their endeauours ; or for instructing them in non-necessaries . as touching that which the doctor in the clause of this princ. speaks , of moses and the prophets : certain it is , that moses his writings and the law were not penned with such clarity , but that doubts and controuersies might arise concerning the sence of it : so we find mention made of doubts , between law and commandement , statutes and iudgments : and 2. such doubts arising , their address was to be made to the supreme iudges appointed for deciding them . 3. whateuer their sentence was , according to the sentence of the law that these should teach them , and according to the judgment that they should tell , and inform them , they were to do : and that vpon pain of death . to do , i say , according to such sentence ; not only when they were to vndergo some mulct , or punishment imposed by these judges for a fault ; but when they were enjoyned the obseruance of some law formerly misunderstood by them and so broken and disobeyed . this seems clear enough from the words of the text : for who can reasonably interpret them thus , thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee , to the right hand or to the left , ( vers . 11. ) that is , thou shalt not decline in not paying the mulct in which they shall fine thee , or not vndergoing the corporall punishment they shall inflict on thee : thou shalt obserue to do according to all that they shall informe thee , and according to the sentence of the law that they shall teach thee ( vers . 10. ) that is , thou shalt suffer what they impose , but not obey what they enjoyn . again they were to do according to such sentence , vpon pain of death , not then only , when the litigants do aknowledge their sentence to be ( juxta legem dei ) conformable to gods law ( for then what sentence of the iudge would stand good ? ) but so often as the judge should declare it to be conformable to gods law : and when will a judge declare his sentence to bee otherwise ? lastly , not to debate here the infallibility of these supreme judges as to all necessaries in the law of moses , let the like absolute obedience be now yielded to the supreme ecclesiasticall courts ; let their sentence be so conformed to , so assented to among christians , for none is obliged to do a thing ( as the jewes were by those judges ) but is , by the same decree , obliged to assent and beleeue the doing it lawfull , and more is not required . xvi . principle . 16. there can be no more intollerable vsurpation vpon the faith of christians , then for any person or society of men to pretend to an assistance , as infallible in what they propose as was in christ or his apostles , without giuing an equall degree of euidence that they are so assisted , as christ and his apostles did , viz. by miracles as great , publick and conuincing as theirs were : by which i mean , such , as are wrought by those very persons who challenge this infallibility , and with a design for the conuiction of those who do not belieue it . notwithstanding the doctors assertion in this proposition , that a society pretending to infallibility is obliged to confirm such a pretention by miracles as great as christ and his apostles did : yet himself and the archbishop whom he defends , do hold that there is after the apostles times a body or society infallible in fundamentalls , viz. such oecumenicall councills as are vniuersally accepted by the catholick church ; which church , they say , from our lord's promise , can neuer err in fundamentalls . now it is certain this society is not equally assisted with miracles , as our lord or his apostles were . therefore the doctor may do well to reuiew this principle . 1. but its failings being of no difficult discouery , i shall not let it pass vnexamined . first , then i see no reason , that those equally assisted by god in deliuering a truth , must also be enabled by him to giue an equall euidence of such assistāce , where there is not the same necessity of it ; as there is not , when the later deliuer no new thing from the former . 2. again , though none can pretend to be infallible , or actually not erring in what he proposeth , but that he must be as infallible , as to the truth of that wherein he erreth not , as our lord , or his apostles ; for one , or one persons truth , is no more true then any others : yet in many other respects the churches infallibility is much inferiour to that of the apostles ; in that it is . 1. neither for its matter so farr extended , the apostles being affirmed infallible in all they deliuered , as well in their arguments as conclusions , both in their relating things heard from our lord , and things anew inspired by the holy ghost : whereas the church-gouernours are acknowledged infallible only in their definitions in matters of necessary faith ; and , not in their receiuing any new matters inspired by god , but in faithfully deliuering the inspirations of the former . 2. neither for the manner are the church-gouernours so highly assisted , by reason of the other knowledge and euidence they haue of that doctrine , first deliuered by the apostles , and so from them receiued , which vnchanged they conuey vnto posterity . of which degrees of infallibility see archbishop lawd pag. 254. and 140. 3. and in the third place , hence it follows , that miracles hauing been wrought by the first in confirmation of that doctrine which both deliuer , are not now alike necessary to , or reasonably demanded of the second . 4. yet , since our lord and his apostles time , miracles haue been , and are continued in the church : of which see irrefragable testimonies giuen by s. augustin : in that church , i say , that pretends infallibility ; and only in that church , not any other , departed from it , pretending thereto : and vniuersally to deny the truth of them is to ouerthrow the faith of the most credible histories . but these are done in these later , as in former , times , only when , and for what ends god , and not man his instrument , pleaseth , and many times without such persons precedent knowledge , in making his requests , what the diuine majesty will effect . neither are the apostles themselues to be imagined to haue had the operation of miracles so in their power , as as to do these in any kind , when , and upon what persons they pleased , or others demanded . for such a thing would be of such a force vpon mens wills to compell them into christianity , or to reduce unto the catholick church christians strayed from it , as the diuine prouidence , perhaps for the greater tryall of mens hearts , and merit of their faith , hath not ordinarily vsed . 5. lastly , miracles remaining still in this church , though they be not professedly done for conuincing a dissenter in this or that particular truth , yet do sufficiently testifie in generall a security of saluation in the communion and faith of this church , if god only honours with them the members of this communion , and no others that liue out of it : as we see no other christian society diuided from it that layes claim to them , or shews any records of them , or euer did : at least such as may be any way equalled , either for frequency , variety , or eminency with those of this church ; i mean , although so many of these be rejected and layd aside , where appears any rationall ground of suspicion . that the doctor and the archbishop do hold such generall councills as haue an vniuersall acceptation from the church catholik diffusiue , to be infallible , seems to me clear from the places forecited in them . for in those both the doctor and archbishop admitt , that the church diffufiue is for euer preserued infallible in all fundamentalls , or points absolutely necessary to saluation ; and this by vertue of the diuine promise , that the gates of hell shall not preuail against her , and other texts : and therefore such councills whose decrees are admitted by the whole church diffusiue , must be so too . i say , as to fundamentalls , though as to other points not fundamentall they affirme these councills also lyable to errour and fallible , because the church catholick diffusiue ( say they ) is so also . among the conditions also that render any generall councill obligatory they require this for one , that they be vniuersally accepted , or haue the generall consent of the christian world. such councills then there may be . and then , such lawfull generall councils , and so approued , and consequently obliging the christian world , they confess the first four generall councils to haue been ; to which councills therefore they profess all obedience . now wee see what kind of obedience it was these councils exacted , in the athanasian creed , accepted by the church of england , which contains the summ of their decrees , viz. no less then assent and belief and submission of judgement , and all this vpon penalty of eternall damnation . and this , if justly required by them , inferrs , vpon the doctors arguing , their infallibility . for ( saith he , where councills challenge an internall assent by vertue of their decrees ( or , because their decrees are in themselues infallible ) there must be first proued an impossibility of error in them , before they can look on themselues as obliged to giue it . and therefore he and the archbishop , so farr as any such councills , are fallible , allow only an externall obedience , or silence , to them . now for obedience to these first four generall councills in a submission of judgment to them , vpon such an vniuersall acceptation of them , the doctor in another place thus writes , the church of england looks vpon the keeping the decrees of the fower first generall councills as her duty : and professeth to be guided by the sence of scripture as interpreted by the vnanimous consent of the fathers , and the fowr fist generall councills : that is , shee professeth to take that which such counciils deliuer , for the sence of scripture : not then , to admit their definitions , if first they accord with the scripture taken in our own sence . so also else where he saith , the church of england doth not admit any thing to be deliuered as the sense of scripture which is contrary to the consent of the catholick sense of the fowr first ages ( that is ) in their oecumenicall councills , as he expresseth it in the preceding page . and here also he giues the ground of such submission , viz. a strong presumption , that nothing contrary to the necessary articles of faith should be held by the catholick church , whose very being depends vpon the belief of those things that are necessary to saluation . and when ( saith he ) those correspondencies were maintained between the seuerall parts of it , that what was refused by one , was so by all . in another place also speaking in generall of councills vniuersally accepted , he saith , that both the truth of gods promises , the goodness of god to his people , and his peculiar care of his church seem highly concerned , that such a councill should not be guilty of any notorious errour . here you see he saith , that the truth of gods promises is concerned that these councills should not fall into any notorious errour ; therefore ( such promises are made absolute to some church-gouernors after the apostles . ) and then , where the errour is not intollerable , ( saith the archbishop ) at least obedience of non-contradiction will be due to all such councills . now a notorious errour it must needs be , if an errour in fundamentalls . and such notorious errour in particular would this be , if they should hold themselues ( when they are not ) infallible in their decrees , and so should require a generall assent ( such as that in the athanasian creed ) from christians to them , as to diuine reuelations , and make them de fide , thereby , in case any decree be not true , obliging all the members of the church to an vnity in errour . thus farr then , as to fundamentall errours , it seems gods prouidence secures both such councills , and their subjects : and then also for their erring in non-fundamentalls , both he and the archbishop put this among the raro contingentia . the archbishop also is much in justifying the catholick church infallible not only in its being , but teaching , and that must be by its councills . doctor white , saith he , had reason to say , that the visible church had in all ages taught that vnchanged faith of christ in all points fundamentall . and again it is not possible the catholick church ( that is , of any one age ) should teach against the word of god in things absolutely necessary to saluation . where the word ( teach ) shews , that he intends the gouernors of the church in euery age. likewise in another place , if we speak ( saith he ) of plain and easy scripture , the whole church cannot at any time be without the knowledge of it . and , if a. c. meane no more , then that the whole vniuersall church of christ cannot vniuersally erre in any one point of faith simply necessary to mens saluation , be fights against no aduersary that i know , but his own fiction . where it follows , but if he mean that the whole church cannot erre in any one point of diuine truth in generall , if in these the church shall presume to determine without her guide , the scripture , then perhaps it may be said , that the whole militant church hath erred in such a point . here then the first , of the whole church not erring in fundamentalls , as well as the second , are spoken of the church determining . and so is that saying of his , viz. that though the mother-church prouinciall or national , may erre , yet if the grand mother , the whole vniuersall church ( that is , in her generall councills vniuersally accepted controlling the other prouincial or national ) cannot erre in these necessary things , all remains safe ; and all occasions of disobedience ( that is , to the grand-mothers commands ) taken from the possibility of the churches erring . ( namely , as to all necessaries ) are quite taken away . thus he . but safe , &c. it could not be , if the catholick church , the grand mother , as she held , so could not also witness , all the necessary truths against such inferiour councills . but how these things will te reconciled with what the doctor saith else where i know not : let him take care of it : as name ly where he writes thus : you much mistake , when you think we resolue our faith of fundamentalls into the church as the infallible witness of them . for though the church may be infallible in the belief of all things fundamentall ( for otherwise it were not a church if it did not belieue them ) it doth not follow thence necessarily , that the church must infallibly witness what is fundamentall and what not . and again that all infallible assistance makes not an infallible testimony , or makes not the testimony of those that haue it infallible surely teaching , declaring its consent , condemning doctrins contrary to fundamentalls , is witnessing , or giuing testimony . xvii . principle . 17. nothing can be more absurd then to pretend the necessity of such an infallible commission and assistance to assure us of the truth of these writings , and to interpret them , and at the same time to proue that commission from those writings from which we are told nothing can be certainly deduced , such an assistance not being supposed ; or to pretend , that infallibility in a body of men is not lyable to doubts and disputes , as in those bookes from whence only they deriue their infallibility . i. for the former part of this principle ( viz. nothing can be more absurd then to pretend the necessity of , &c. ) if the doctor in the words ( at the same time to proue that commission from these writings ) means here , to proue such commission or assistance only , or in the first place from these writings , the truth of which writings are first or onely proued from such commission , &c. the absurdity vrged by him i grant . 1. as all articles of faith are not by all persons learnt at once , so neither by all , exactly in the same order , as is frequently obserued by catholick writers . a christians faith therefore may begin either at the infallible authoriry of scriptures , or of the church ; and this infallible authority of either of these be learnt from tradition ; and that of the other from it , viz. 1. either the infallible authority of the scriptures from that of the church , the church testifying so much of the scriptures : or 2. that of the church from the scriptures : or 3. also , the infallibility of either of these may be rightly proued from its own testimony . for whoeuer is proued , or granted , once infallible in what he saith , the consequence is clear ( without any circle , or petitio principii , or identicall arguing ) that whateuer he doth witness of himselfe is true . i say all these consequences are naturall and necessary . 1. the testimony being granted euident that the one bears to the other , or either to its selfe : and 2. the infallibility of one of these , either of the scripture , or of the church , being , first , learnt not from its own , or the others testimony , but from tradition . 2. when a catholick then first receiues an assurance of the truth , or canon of scripture from the infallibility of the church , or its gouernors , he may learne first this supernaturall diuine assistance and infallibility of these gouernors ( which is made known by diuine reuelation to those first persons who communicate it to posterity ) from tradition descending from age to age , in such manner , as the protestant saith , he learneth his canon of scripture from tradition . to which tradition also may be committed by our lord , or his apostles , whateuer is to scripture . 3. neither may we think , that this diuine assistance or infallibility of these guides of the church in necessaries , should either not haue been , or not haue been a thing well known to , or belieued in the church by this ( to use the doctors terms ) deriuatiue and perpetuated sensation of tradition , if there had been no diuine writings : for soe the christian religion without such writings would haue been no rationall and well grounded , no stable and certain religion , which surely the doctor will not affirme . and this that is said here of the churches infallible authority , may be also of other necessary articles of the christian faith . for , as the doctor saith , it is euident from the nature of the thing , that the writing of a diuine reuolation is not necessary for the ground and reason of faith , as to that reuelation . because men may belieue a diuine reuelation without it , as is euident in the patriarchs and christian beleiuers before the doctrine written . 4. such infallibility in necessaries then being so settled in the gouernors and pastors of the church , ( the apostles and those others ordained by them , by whom the world was conuerted ) as that had there been no scriptures , it should not haue failed : for so the church would haue failed too . the successors cannot be imagined to become disenabled , or depriued of it , because the apostles afterwards wrote what they taught ; but rather by such writings more secured in it : because the belief of this infallibility of these successors receiues a second euidence from the testimony thereof also found in these writings . thus both written , and vnwritten , tradition-apostolicall attesting it . 5. now that these gouernors of the church ( who hauing an apparent succession , their testimony must haue been vnquestionably belieued by christians in what they taught , in case there had been no scripture ) alwayes reputed and held themselues diuinely assisted , and infallible for all necessaries , and that this was the traditiue faith of the church ( grounded on our lords promise ) in all ages , sufficiently appears by their inserting from time to time ( as they thought fitt ) their decisions in the creeds and by their anathematizing dissenters , & the churches stiling them hereticks . for no authority ( if we belieue the doctor ) but that wich proues it selfe infallible , and therefore which is infallible , can justly require our internall assent , or submission of iudgment . and protestants allowing only an externall obedience , or silence , due to councills fallible , inferrs that councills fallible can justly require no more : and consequently that such councills are infallible as do justly require more ; as did the fowr first councills , with the voluntary acknowledgment also and submission of their subjects to such an authority assumed by them . we find indeed subordinate councills also stating sometimes matters of faith , censuring heretiks , and requiring assent to their decrees ; but still with relation to the same infallibility residing in the generall body of church ▪ gouernors , and their concurrence therein : they not passing such acts without consulting the tradition and iudgment of other churches , and especially of the apostolick see : and a generall acceptation rendring their decisions authentick and valid . 2. for the latter part of this principle [ nothing is more absurd , then to pretend that infallibility in a body of men , is not as lyable to doubts and disputes , as in those bookes from whence only they deriue their infallibility . ] if the doctor means here ( as in his rationall account , that the sentence of a body of men infallible is , he saith not , in some things lyable to some doubts ; but as lyable to doubts and disputes , as the infallible scriptures ( for there he maintains , that the decrees of councills are as lyable to many interpretations , as any other writings . and again , if the scriptures cannot put an end to controuersies on that account , how can generall councills do it , when their decrees are as lyable to a priuate sense and wrong interpretation , as the scriptures are , nay more , &c. ) i say , if this be his sense , then , not to compare absurdities here , is not this all one as if he said , that a preacher or commentator can , or doth speak or write nothing plainer , then the text ? nor the judge giue a sentence any more intelligible , then the law ? that councills can , or haue decided nothing clearer , then the thing that is in controuersy ? and so , no party is cast by them , since it appears not , for whom they declare ? and that the decree of the councill of trent , as to transubstantiation remains still as disputable , as the text , hoc est corpus meum ? but then , how comes it to pass , that protestants , when the definitions of later councills are urged against them , do not contest them as dubious , but reject them , as erroneous ? from the same misarguing the doctor elsewhere concludes , that the argument of the vnity ( in opinion ) of the roman party , because they are ready to submit their iudgment to the determination of the church , will hold as well ( or better ) for the vnity of protestants , as theirs ; because all men are willing to submit their iudgments to scriptures , which is on all sides agreed to be infallible . thus he. now to consider it . moses his law prescribed by god for an infallible rule , yet had iudges appointed , when doubts and contentions hapned about the meaning of it , to explain the sense : our sauiour , accordingly in the ghospell , when any one had a controuersy against another , ( which controuersy perhaps might be heresy , or his brothers teaching something contrary to the rule of faith ) ordered , vpon such person his not being otherwise reclaimed , that in the last place the matter should be brought to the hearing of the church , and such person , if not hearing the church , to be excommunicated ▪ now i ask , to what end either of these , if such persons be no nearer to vnity of opinion , or conuiction and ending their disputes by submitting their judgments to the sentence of these iudges , or this church , then before they were in the same submission of theirs to the rule . infallibility alone ends not controuersies , but clearness ; clearness in the point controuerted : which if the scripture hath , how comes controuersy about it ? and controuersies between so great parties , churches , nations ? in this sense of scripture catholiks dissenting , repair to the decision of the church ( w ch if any way obscure is capable of being made by it afterward more intelligible ) submit to its iudgment , and so become vnited in opinion in all those points the church decides : wherein protestants rejoyce in their liberty still to disagree . vnited in opinion , i say ; true or false , here matters not : we speak here of vnion , not of truth . but now , when the sense of scripture is the like matter of controuersy between two sects of protestants , as frequently it is , what course do they take for vnity of opinion ? repair they again to the scriptures they controvert ? but these can neuer decide which of the seuerall senses they take them in , is the true . repair they to synods ? so the arminians and antiarminians did ? then surely this they do , because that vnity ( prouided there be a submission of iudgment to both ) is attainable by the sentence of the synod or church , which is not by that of the scripture . which is the thing here denyed by the doctor . and hence it proceeds , that catholicks must be much more vnited in opinion or iudgment , then protestants ; in as much as they all owne submission of iudgment to so many councills , which the other reject ; these not accepting the decrees of aboue fowr or siue of those councills , whilst the catholiks admit of fowr ( or suppose , three ) times so many , and namely of one , the councill of trent ; of which soaue affirms , that in all the councills held in the church from the apostles times vntill then , there were neuer so many articles decided as in only one session of it . and protestants aggrauate the tyranny of the church of rome in tying all her subjects vnanimously to belieue , and that as necessary to saluation so many points of faith , wherein the protestants leaue to all men liberty of opinion . and moreouer , as for those differences that remain still , or shall arise hereafter , they are also conclusiue among them by the same way of councills , vpon the acknowledged obligation of a common submission of their judgments . i say not , all their differences whatsoeuer are conclusiue ( which causeth some wonder in the doctor , that this thing is not done in an infallible church ) but so many of them wherein the church finds on any side sufficient euidence of tradition ; or , for the grauity of the matter ; a necessity of decision : the same diuine prouidence that preserues his church perpetually infallible in all things necessary to be determined , disposing also , that for all such necessaries , there shall be a sufficient euidence of tradition , either of the conclusion it selfe , or its principles . but as for seuerall other matters of diuine reuclation , where what is to be held as de fide is not sufficiently yet cleared , either by reason of the sense of scripture , or of the sense of some conciliary decree still disputed among catholicks , in matters that are called indeed , by the one or other party , de fide , as they variously apprehend this sense of scripture , or councill ; no such agreement , i say , in matters of faith thus taken , is at all pretended : and their accord in the rest sufficiently transcends that of protestants . but euen these also are capable of the same settlement , when the church shall pass a new sentence concerning them . here then may be resumed that expression selected by doctor tillotson to make sport with , viz. that in this their faith ( namely , as to points thereof determined by the church ) it is impossible that catholiks should differ one from another , and that there should be any schism among them . the reason is plain , because in all such points they vnanimously submit their judgment to their mother the church : or if any doth not , he ceaseth to be a catholick . whereas protestants not acknowledging any necessary obligation of such submission to any superiours among them , it is impossible that debates and schisms should be auoyded by them . xviii . principle . 18. there can be no hazard to any person in mistaking the meaning of any particular place in those bookes , supposing he use the best means for understanding them , comparable to that which euery one runs who belieues any person or society of men to be infallible who are not : for in this later he runs vnauoydably into one great errour , and by that may be led into a thousand : but in the former god hath promised either he shall not erre , or he shall not be damned for it . god hath made no such promise concerning any one , who vseth his best endeanours for vnderstanding scripture , that either he shall not erre , or not be damned for it , if such endeauour be vnderstood exclusiuely to his consulting and embracing the expositions of the church : which if the doctor includes , then catholicks also affirme , that in necessaries such persons cannot mistake . neither can such promise be pretended necessary , since god hath referred all , in the dubious sense of his scriptures , to the directions and doctrine of his ministers , their spirituall guides , whom he hath set ouer them , to bring them in the vnity of the faith to a perfect man , and that they may not be tossed to and fro and carryed about with euery wind of doctrine by the sleight of those that lye in wait to deceiue . and , without which guide , s. peter obserues that in his time some persons ( for any thing we know , diligent enough , yet ) through want of learning , and the instability of adhering to their guides , being unlearned , saith he , and vnstable , wrested some places of scripture , hard to be vnderstood , to their own destruction : therefore these scriptures are also , in some great and important points , hard to be vnderstood . now therefore let the doctor giue me leaue to put these two other propositions in the other scale to counterpoise his . the first , that a person in belieuing any society of men to be infallible that are so , hath a security incomparably beyond that of another person who is supposed to use the best other means , his condition is capable of , to understand the scriptures , and so follows his own judgment : the capacity of most christians being very little , abstracting from the directions of a guide their mean condition voyd of learning , or leasure , and it being a thing vncertain also , when they haue vsed a due endeauour ; and this a prejudice of it not rightly used , that they do not discerne in these scriptures this infallible guide , which ( saith s. augustin ) the scripture without any ambiguity doth demonstrate ; and which repaired to , may demonstrate to them what else is necessary . the second proposition is , that there can be no such hazard to any person in belieuing a society of men to be infallible , that are not . if this society be at least more learned and studied in diuine matters then himselfe , and also ordained by our lord to be his instructors in them ( which protestants , i hope , allow true of their own clergy : ) no such hazard , i say , as is comparable to that euery one incurrs in mistaking the meaning of scriptures , though we suppose he vseth his best other means of vnderstanding them , exclusiue to his obeying the instructions of such a society . [ witness the vnhappy socinians , and all other grosser sects of late sprung out of disobedience . ] for whereas , in following these guides , such persons may fall into some errours , and perhaps some of them great ones ; in this later way of following their owne fancyes the vnlearned may fall into a thousand , and some of these much greater and grosser , then any such christian society or body of clergy will euer maintain . for god hath made no promise to preserue in truth those who desert their guides ; nor to reward their diligence , who liue in disobedience . xix . principle . 19. the assistance which god hath promised to those who sincerely desire to know his will , may giue them greater assurance of the truth of what is contained in the bookes of scripture , then it is possible for the greatest infallibility in any other persons to do , supposing they haue not such assurance of their infallibility . 1. first obserue , that whateuer diuine assistance is aduanced here against the assurance that can be receiued from church-infallibility , the same is more against any assurāce that may be had from church-authority . thus it happens more then once in these principles , that in too forward a zeale in demolishing the one , the other also is dangerously vndermined . 2. the doctor hath all reason here to suppose , him that repairs to , and is instructed by an infallible guide , though not knowing him to be such , as well as him , who seeks for an assurance of his faith , without one , sincerely to desire to know gods will , and vpon this to enjoy his promised assistance , so far as god engageth it . and then if the question be , which of these two takes the more prudent course , he that consults , or he that lays aside this guide , for his assurance of the truth of what is contained in the bookes of scripture ; i should think , the former . whilst the one relyes on the judgment of such guide thought wise and learned , though not infallible ; the other on his own : on the judgment of which guide the one hath much more reason to be confident , then the other on his own , who neglects the advice of the wise man [ ne innitaris prudentiae tuae ] lean not on thy own prudence . at least the doctor must grant the former ( of the two ) to be de facto in a much safer condition . for it must be acknowledged a great benefit to haue an infallible guide to shew us our way , though we doe not know him to be infallible : for so we keep still in the right way , though belieuing only , and not infallible certain , that it is so ; so we walke in humility and obedience . and if god hath directed us , for learning our right way , to a guide , surely he will take no prudent course , who committing himselfe to gods immediate assistance , shall neglect it ; and break his commandement in hope of his fauour . xx. principle . 20. no mans faith can therefore be infallible meerly because the proponent is said to be infallible : because the nature of assent doth not depend vpon the objectiue infallibility of any thing without us , but is agreable to the euidence we haue of it in our minds : for assent is not built on the nature of things , but their evidence to us . this proposition is granted , viz. that no person is infallibly certain of , or in his faith , because the proponent thereof is infallible , vnless he also certainly know , or haue an infallible evidence that he is infallible . only let it be here remembred , that , for begetting an infallible assent to the thing proposed , it is sufficient if we haue an infalliblé euidence either of the thing proposed , or of the proponent only : because if we are infallibly certain that he cannot ly in such matter who relates it to us , we are also hence infallibly certain , that what he says is truth . xxi . principle . 21. it is necessary therefore in order to an infallible assent , that euery particular person be infallibly assisted in judging of the matters proposed to him to be belieued : so that the ground on which a necessity of some externall infallible proponent is asserted , must rather make euery particular person infallible , if no diuine faith can be without an infallible assent ; and so renders any other infallibility vseless . this proposition , that therefore it is necessary , in order to an infallible assent , that euery particular person be infallibly assisted in judging of the matters proposed to him to be belieued , is not well deduced from the precedent proposition rightly vnderstood : neither is it true : and so the consequence also faileth , viz. [ so that the ground on which a necessity of some externall infallible proponent is asserted , must rather make euery particular person infallible , if no diuine faith can be without an infallible assent ; and so renders any other infallibility useless . ] because ( as was now said ) for the yeilding an infallible assent to the things proposed , it is not necessary that the person haue an infallible euidence of the truth of the things proposed , that is , from the internall principles that proue , or demonstrate them : but it is enough ( though the things proposed remain still in themselues obscure to him ) that he haue an infallible , or sufficiently certain euidence only of the infallibility of the externall proponent . the ground therefore vpon which the necessity of some externall infallible proponent is asserted for begeting such infallible assent is , because the person hath by no other way any infallible euidence of the things proposed : which if he had , then indeed the proponents infallibility , for such points , is rendred vseless . and by this , i hope , sufficiently appeareth that misarguing that seems to cause a great confusion in the doctor 's principles : whilst , vpon an infallible assent requiring an infallible euidence ( layd down in the twentieth proposition , and conceded ) he concludes as necessary to our yielding an infallible assent to all that the church proposeth , an infallible euidence of the things proposed ; and then , hence inferres the vselessness of such infallible proponent . and here note , that though the churches infallibility to such a person as is not infallibly assured of it , signifies nothing as to his infallible assurance of that which it proposeth ; yet it signifies much for his hauing a right and sauing faith in all those matters proposed by this church , which cannot misguide him , ( see the consideration on the nineteenth principle ) which right and sauing faith children and other illiterate country people in the catholick church haue , without any such infallible assurance concerning the proponent ( as is abundantly declared by catholick writers ) in like manner the protestants also affirme , that the holy scriptures may signify much to the begetting a true and sauing faith euen in those who cannot from vniuersall tradition certainly proue them to be the word of god. xxii . principle . 22. if no particular person be infallible in the assent he giues to matters proposed by others to him , then no man can be infallibly sure that the church is infallible : and so the churches infallibility can signify nothing to our infallible assurance without an equall infallibility in our selues in the belief of it . [ if no particular person be infallible in the assent he giues to matters propos'd , &c. ] here [ matters ] is left indefinite . if the doctor means , to any matters at all proposed , the proposition and consequence thereto annexed , are true and granted . but on the contrary , a particular person may be infallible in the assent he giues to some matter proposed , viz. to this , that the church is infallible . if he means , to all matters proposed , then it is faulty and denyed : for though no particular person be infallible in the assent he giues to all matters proposed by others to him , yet may he be so in this , the churches infallibility . and so the consequence also is voyd ; and the churches infallibility will signify as much as is expected to mens infallible assurance in those matters it proposeth . here then catholicks affirm , that though euery person is not so , any person may be , and that antecedently to the testimony of scripture , at least with a morally-infallible certainty ( or what euer certainty that may be called which vniuersall tradition can afford ) assured of this diuine reuelation , the churches infallibility , from such tradition and other motiues of credibility as protestants allow for a sufficiently , or morally-infallible and certain means of belieuing the scriptures to be the word of god. on which word of god , or diuine reuelation the seuerall articles deliuered by it , in the sense their own priuate judgment apprehends the protestant grounds his faith : again on which word of god , or diuine reuelation , in the sense this infallible church interprets the same articles the catholick grounds his faith. but as the protestants except here from being primarily grounded on , or proued by the same scriptures , this fundamentall point of faith , that the scriptures are the true word of god ; so they must giue catholiks also leaue to except here this their point of faith , the infallibility of the church , from being primarily , or , as to the first means of knowing it , grounded on , or learnt from the testimony of this infallible church . for this point may first come to the belieuers knowledge either from tradition , or from the holy scriptures ( as is explained before in the considerations on 17. principle . § . 28. ) from the scriptures , i say , as the sense of them is now learnt , not from this infallible church , but either from their owne sufficient clearness in this point , or from tradition . nor are catholicks necessited in arguing against protestants ( who grant the scriptures to be gods word ) to vse any other testimony then that of these scriptures for a sufficiently clear proof of church-infallibility . for i think i may call that a clear proof , euen according to the doctors common reason of mankind , which by the most of the christian world is taken to be so , notwithstanding that a party , engaged by their reformation in an apparent contrary interest , do contradict it . yet whilst they deny a sufficient euidence of church-infallibility to be found in scripture , if they would allow a sufficient euidence of church-authority established to decide ecclesiasticall controuersies with obligation to externall obedience , by this authority they would be cast and silenced for the former , if a much major part may be admitted ( as it ought ) to giue law to the whole . in the belief and profession of which church-infallibility , and submission of priuate mens judgments , to her sentence passed in her synods the greek church seems no way varying from the roman . jeremias the constantinopolitan patriarch in his contest with the lutheran protestants , is much in this , as a sure retreat for ending controuersies , and establishing peace . for he tells them , that those points which haue been determined or commanded synodically after a legitimate way of councills , they are receiued by all faithfull christians as consonant to the diuinely-inspired scriptures . and in the conclusion of that answer , he saith , it is not lawfull for vs confiding in our own priuate explication , to vnderstand , to obserue or interpret any saying of diuine scripture any otherwayes then as hath seemed good to those theologues who haue been approued and receiued by holy synods directed by gods spirit ; least that declining from the right euangelicall doctrin , the conceptions of our minds should be carried about hither and thither like a proteus . but some wilt aske , how shall those things be reformed ? how ? euen thus by gods assistance , if we take not into our hands , nor giue credit to any things besides those which haue been instituted and ordained by the holy apostles and holy synods . he who obserues this limit , is our companion in celebrating diuine mysteries , he is of the same communion and faith with us . again in his preface to the same answer he saith , we will giue our answer , not alledging any thing of our own , but from the seauen oecumenicall synods ( the last of these is that so much persecuted and befoold by doctor stillingfleet in his last book ) and from the sentence of holy doctors interpreters of diuinely inspired scriptures , whom the catholick church hath by an vnanimous consent receiued : since the holy ghost hath breathed forth by them and spoken in them such things as shall foreuer remain unmooued , as being founded on the word of god. for the church of christ is the pillar and ground of truth , against which the gates of hell shall neuer preuail , as god has promised . here we see in the east the same zeale for councills and for fathers ( taken collectiuely ) as an infallible guide , as is in the west , and the like endeauour to reduce protestants to the same acknowledgment and humble submission of judgment . xxiii . principle . 23. the infallibility of euery particular person being not asserted by those who plead for the infallibility of a church , and the one rendring the other vseless ( for if euery person be infallible , what needs any representatiue church be so too ) and the infallibility of a church being of no effect if euery person be not infallible in the belief of it , we are further to enquire what certainty men may haue in matters of faith , supposing no externall proponent to be infallible . the obseruations made vpon the three immediatly foregoing propositions ( the matter of which is repeated in this ) do shew that they no way serue him for the vse he would here make of them . the sense of which propositions , as far as they haue any truth in them , may be returned vpon him , thus : since the infallibility af any particular person , as to the assent he either doth , or may giue to this point of the churches infallibility is asserted by those who plead for the infallibility of a church : and since such infallibility of a particular person as to this point , doth not therefore render at all the infallibility of a church vseless to him , viz. as to his learning still from her all those other points of faith of which he hath no infallible knowledge or certainty otherwayes , ( in which therefore he not being infallible , that he may not erre in them , it is necessary that the representatiue church be so : ) and so since the infallibility of the church is still of most important effect , both to those who haue and to those who as yet haue not any infallible certainty of this her infallibility , toguide both these in a true , right and sauing faith , as to those points where of they haue no certainty : therefore there needs no enquiry after a further certainty for that our faith , in which we haue one already from this infallible proponent , the church . xxiv . principle . 24. there are different degrees of certainty to be attained according to the different degrees of euidence and measure of diuine assistance ; but euery christian by the use of his reason , and common helpes of grace may attain to so great a degree of certainty , from the conuincing arguments , of the christian religion and authority of the scriptures , that on the same grounds on which men doubt of the truth of them they may as well doubt of the truth of those things which they judge to be most euident to sense or reason . here , if the doctor means , that euery christian by the use of his reason and common helps of grace ( that is , as he hath expressed it already principle 13. and 18. by his perusing the scriptures , and sincerely endeauouring to know their meaning , exclusuely to his necessary repair to any externall infallible guide or proponent , as he pretends in principle 13. 15. 23. ) may attain to so great a degree of certainty , as to all necessary points of faith , onely from the conuincing arguments , of the verity of the christian religion and authority of scriptures , as that such a person may as litle doubt of them , as of the things most euident to sense or reason ; this principle is denyed . and for the reason of this denyall i referr to what is said before to principle 13. and 18. and i appeal also to what doctor stillingfleet himselfe elsewhere tells us in his rationall account , it seems reasonable , ( saith he , ) that because art and subtilty may be vsed by such , who seek to peruert the catholick doctrin , and to wrest the plain places of scripture which deliuer it , so far from their proper meaning , that very few ordinary capacities may be able to clear themselues of such mists as are cast before their eyes , the sense of the catholick church in succeeding times may be a very usefull way for vs to embrace the true sense of scripture , especially in the great articles of the christian faith : as for instance , in the doctrine of the deity of christ , or the trinity , &c. now should not the doctor , instead of saying , the sence of the catholich church in succceding ages may be a very vsefull way for vs , haue said , is very necessary for vs , if his cause would permit him ? and will not the socinian thank him for this his mitigation ? but if , according to this principle , euery christian without this externall guide can ( not in some perhaps , but ) in all these points of faith attain such certainty as he hath in things most euident to sense or reason , how doth he stand in need of consulting , or conforming to the sense of the primitiue catholick church ? xxv . principle . 25. no man who firmly assents to any thing as true can at the same time entertain any suspition of the falshood of it , for that were to make him certain and vncertain of the same thing : it is therefore absurd to say , that those who are certain of what they belieue , may at the same time not know but that it may be false : which is an apparent contradiction and ouerthrowes any faculty in vs of judging of truth or falshood . 1. this principle is euident ; and granted . but such certainty is not applicable to the belief of euery christian as to all points of faith , if he be supposed not assisted by any externall infallible guide . 2. it is true also , that a full and firme assent , free from doubting ( as where no reasons offer themselues to perswade vs to the contrary ) may be yielded to a thing as true , which is really false , and at the same time no suspicion be entertained of the falshood of it . xxvi . principle . 26. whateuer necessarily proues a thing to be true , doth at the same time proue it impossible to be false ; because it is impossible the same thing should be true and false at the same time . therefore they who assent firmly to the doctrine of the ghospell as true , do therby declare their belief of the impossibility of the falshood of it . this proposition is granted . but one who assents firmly in generall to the whole doctrine of the ghospell , what euer it be , as true , and so to the impossibility of the falshood of it , or any part of it , doth not therefore , being vnasisted by any externall guide , know what this doctrine is in euery such point of faith , where the sense of the letter of this ghospell is controuerted and ( to vse the apostles phrase ) hard to be vnderstood , and that in matters too hazarding damnation , if mistaken . therefore me thinks the doctor should here allow thus much at least ; that all those , who after their perusing the scriptures think themselues not certain of its sense , are obliged ( notwithstanding the silence of these protestant principles herein ) to repair to the direction of these externall guides , and these too not taken at aduenture , and to follow their faith. now such non-pretenders to certainty , according to the doctors tryall of it sett down below in consid. on princ. 29. i suppose are the greatest part of protestants . xxvii . principle . 27. the nature of certainty doth receiue seuerall names , either according to the nature of the proof , or the degrees of the assent . thus morall certainty may be so called , either as it is opposed to mathematicall euidence , but implying a firme assent vpon the highest euidence that morall things can receiue : or as it is opposed to a higher degree of certainty in the same kind . so morall certainty implies only greater probabilities of one side , then the other . in the former sense we assert the certainty of christian faith to be morall : not in the later . this principle is granted , if importing only , that christians haue , or may haue a sufficiently certain and infallible euidence of the truth of their christianity . but notwithstanding this , christians may be deficient in a right belief of seuerall necessary articles of this christian faith , if destitute of that externall infallible guide therein . and the perpetuall diuine assistance , and so , infallibility in necessaries of this guide being declared in the scriptures , a catholick hauing once learnt this point of faith , from it ▪ definitions and expositions becomes secure and setled in the belief of all those controuerted articles of his faith ; wherein others , another ; whilst the scriptures in such points ( at least to persons vnlearned , or of weaker judgments , which are which are the greatest part of christians ) are ambiguous in their sence , and drawn with much art to seuerall interests . xxviii . principle . 28. a christian being thus certain to the highest degree of a firm assent that the scriptures are the word of god , his faith is thereby resolued into the scriptures as into the rule and measure of what hee is to belieue , as it is into the veracity of god , as the ground of belieuing what is therein contained . both catholicks and protestants profess to resolue their faith into the word of god and diuine reuelation ( or into the scriptures , so , as is said on principle 14. and 29. ) and make gods veracity the ground of their belief of the things therein contained . but the former resolue their faith into this scripture , as the sense of it , where disputed , is deliuered by the church , whose faith the apostle commands vs to follow and to whom christ himself giues testimony , as s. augustin saith . as for protestants , they resolue their faith into this scripture , as the sence of it is ultimatly apprehended and vnderstood by their own judgments : none here , to vse the doctors words elsewhere , vsurping that royall prerogrtiue of heauen , in prescribing infallibly in matters question'd ( suppose in those points the doctor named before , the doctrine of the deity of iesus christ , or of the trinity : ) but leauing all to judge ( and so the socinians ) according to the pandects of the diuine lawes : because each member of this society is bound to take care of his soul , and all things that tend thereto . but here the doctor will permit vs to aske whether euery one is bound to take care of his soul , so , as vnder the pretence hereof to disobey their resolutions and instructions in faith or manners , whom god hath appointed to take care of and to watch ouer their soules , and will require an account of them for it . here therefore let euery one take the safest course ; and , where there is no euident certainty , always make sure to side with the church . xxix . principle . 29 no christian can be obliged , vnder any pretence of infallibility , to belieue any thing as a matter of faith , but what was reuealed by god himselfe in that book wherein he belieues his will to be contained ; and consequently is bound to reject whatsoeuer is offered to be imposed vpon his faith , which hath no fundation in scripture , or is contrary thereto : which rejection is no making negative articles of faith , but only applying the generall grounds of faith to particular instances , as , i belieue nothing necessary to saluation but what is contained in scripeure ; therefore no such particular things , which neither are there , nor can be deduced thence . 1. here first obserue , that what no christian is obliged to belieue vnder any pretence of church-infallibility , he is ( much rather ) not obliged to belieue vnder any pretence of church authority : and that the doctors freeing the churches subjects here from the former , doth so from the later . it concerns therefore his superiors to look to it whether their churches and their owne authority suffers no detriment particularly from this principle , i mean , so as it can be applied to priuate mens practice . 2. next obserue , that the expression ( what is reuealed by god , &c. ) as it is applicable to persons , must either mean , what such person only thinks , belieues , or is perswaded to be reuealed &c. or , what such person certainly knows to be reuealed : and the same may be sayd of the later expressions ( what hath no foundation what is contrary . ) now as either of these two additions are made , a great alteration is made in the principle , and what in the one addition is true , in the other may be false . as for example when a culpable ignorance belieues something that is enjoyned by this authority not to be reuealed in gods word , which indeed is so , and so rejects it , here such act is not justifiable . very necessary therefore it seems here to make an exact distinction , that if the doctor means it here of the one , viz. certain knowledge , it may not be misapplyed by any to the other , namely , a belief or full perswasion . for so , men set once vpon examining well in such high mysteries their owne certainty , will , i conceiue , neuer find just cause to reject what this church-authority , to which they owe obedience , recommends to them vpon her certainty . but to take expressions as they lye . for the first part of this principle , thus much is granted , that no christian can be obliged , vnder any pretence of infallibility , to belieue any thing as a matter of faith , but what is reuealed by god himselfe in his word , written or vnwritten , both which the doctor else where allowes to be of the same value , so it be euident they are his word . where i adde vnwritten because though it is granted before , on principle 14. that the word written , or book of scriptures contains all those points of faith that are simply necessary to be of all persons belieued for attaining saluation ; yet some articles of a christians faith there may be that are not there contained , which may be also securely preserued in the church by ecclesiasticall tradition , both written and vnwritten , deriued at first from the apostolicall ; as for example , this by protestants confessed , that these bookes of scripture are the word of god. i say thus much is granted . for no church-infallibility is now pretended , but only in declaring what this word of god deliuers , requireth , authorizeth ; and a catholicks whole faith is grounded on diuine reuelation : and , where such pretended infallible church-authority enjoyns any thing to be belieued meerly as lawfull , it grounds it selfe on this word of god , for the lawfulness of it . the consequence also is granted , viz. that a christian is bound to reject whatsoeuer is offred to be imposed vpon his faith , which hath no foundation in scripture , or gods word , as before explained ; or is contrary thereto , ( that is , which is certainly known to such christian to be so ) there being no matter of faith enjoyned by such authority , but what is pretended to be so founded . but then , such christian , where not infallibly certain against it , ought to submit to the judgment of this authority for the knowing what things are reuealed in this word , and what are contrary to , or not founded in it , and ( to vse the doctors expression ) to be guided by the sense of scripture , as it is interpreted by this authority . else a mistaken and culpably ignorant belief herein , will no way justify his disobedience . no more then the socinians contrary belief justifies him against the decrees of the church in those points which yet he belieues not to be founded in gods word , and rejects as contrary . and the doctor els-where to express and curb such extrauagant and capricious beliefs , is glad to call in , for the interpreting of scripture to them , the concurrant sense of the primitiue church , the common reason of mankind ( that supposeth scripture the rule of faith ) the consent of wise and learned men . and on their side who disbelieue this authority , he calls for no less then demonstration ; and this not some improbable argument miscalled so , but which being proposed to any man and vnderstood , the mind cannot choose but inwardly assent thereto , that is , that euery reasonable man vnderstanding the terms , assents to . ( but how this , and seuerall other things which haue fallen some times from the doctors pen , do consist with these principles , and some other tenēts of his ; or how the true sense of scripture in all necessaries , is so clear and intelligible to euery sincere endeauourer as that he hath such demonstration , for it , as that no rationall man hearing it , can dissent from it , i cannot vndertake to giue a satisfactory account . mean while , such protestants as perhaps may cast their eyes on these papers , may do well to consider , whether vpon such a demonstratiue certainty in the points controuerted as this , it is that they oppose church-authority , teaching them otherwise . likwise , the common reason of mankindchristian , the common consent of wise and learned men named by him before , what are they indeed , but , where all are not vnited in the same judgment , the most common suffrage and testimony of the present vniversall church ; whom also we ought sooner to credit then any other , touching what is the concurrent testimony of the primitiue church , in case this suffers any debate . and if , as he says , particular persons are not to depart from this judgment of authority till they haue demonstration , that is , their own certainty and infallibility , as to such point , to shew against it ; then we need not seek for our lords patent of the churches infallibility for their , or our submission to it , tell the opposers of its judgment , for the points they dissent in , produce theirs . here then we see the doctor getts as near to an internall infallible , or at least authenticall proponent , as his cause and interest will permitt him : hoping by his requiring demonstration , and introducing common reason , and wise and learned men , and primitiue church , to shake his hands of so many sectarists , who molest his owne churches peace vpon the account of this his proposition , or something like it , viz. that no christian is bound , vnder what euer pretence of church authority , to belieue that which is not reuealed in gods word ; and is bound to reject what euer is offred to be impos'd vpon his faith , that is contrary , or hath no ground in gods word , &c. and you must lett them judg of both these . for the last part of this 29. principle ( that such rejection is no making negative articles of faith ) i grant , that a rejecting of the imposition of a belief of such a positiue point , or the refusing to admitt it as an article of their faith ( which may be done whilst they eyther suspend their judgment concerning it , or also acknowledg the truth of it , supposed no diuine reuelation ) if this were all the protestants do , is not therefore making the negatiue of it an article of their faith. but mean while , the rejecting any such positiue from their faith , as not only vntrue , but contrary to the scripture , is making or declaring the negatiue of it an article of their faith ; because it makes this negatiue a thing reuealed in scripture , and so a matter of faith , ( though i do not say , an article necessary to saluation . ) and therefore perhaps it was , that the doctor in the reason he annexeth ( that they only apply the generall grounds of faith to particular instances , &c. ) mentions indeed such positiues as are neyther in , nor may be deduced from the scripture , but warily omitts such as are pretended contrary to scripture . now that protestants declare many of these positiues they reject , contrary to scripture ; see for purgatory , adoration of images , inuocation of saints , indulgences , in the article of the church of england 22. for works of supererogation art. 14. for publick prayer or ministery of the sacraments in a tongue not vnderstood by the people art. 24. sacrifice of the mass. art. 31. transubstantiation . art , 28. and to this belief of the negatiues of them as contained in scripture , all the members of the church of england , or at least the clergy , seem to be by their canons as strictly obliged ( though some of their diuines appear not well satisfied with it ) vnder these terms , to allow and acknowledg all the articles ( and so these fore-cited , ) agreable to gods word . to declare their vnfeigned assent to them : and this for establishing vnity of opinion and consent , as those of the roman church are obliged to the positiues : who are no such way obliged by that church to such a necessary belief of all her positiues , as that a person nescient of them cannot be saued , or that the explicit knowledg of them is necessary ( though always in some measure beneficiall it is ) to saluation . but this indeed is necessary to saluation , that any subject of the church knowing them to be determined by her , obey her definitions , and not reject or dissent from them : such disobedience being conceaued a breach of gods command . and from this ( if i may be indulged to trangress a little ) an answer may be giuen to that quaere of the doctors in his book roman idolatry . p. 52. which he says he could not hitherto procure from catholiks , though he hath often requested it , viz. why the belieuing of all the ancient creeds , and leading a good life may not be sufficient to saluation , vnless one be of the communion of the church of rome ? where if he will allow me here , for auoyding by disputes , to change these words ( communion of the church of rome ) into ( the communion of the roman catholick church ; and 2. will giue me leaue to vnderstand a good life here , restrained to all other duties of a christian , saue those which respect this communion , else if a good life be generally taken , the doctors supposition must not be allowed : ) then i answer , that such belieuing and leading such a life , cannot be sufficient for saluation , to so many persons as persist , without repentance , eyther in a wilfull ignorance of their obligation to liue in this communion , or knowing this obligation , persist in a wilfull neglect to re-vnite themselus to it . because all such persons liue in a mortall sin , viz. disobedience to , and a willfull separation from their lawfull and canonicall ecclesiasticall superiors , whom our lord hath sett ouer them . and this sin vnrepented of , destroys saluation , being the same so heauily condemned by our sauiour ( si non audierit ecclesiam . ) now that vnrepented of it is , we haue reason to fear , so long as they hauing opportunity , either neglect to inform their judgment , or this being conuinc'd , to reform and rectify their practise . and this seems a judged case in the donatist ( who pretended some such thing for their security ) if we will admitt s. augustins sentiment of it : for thus he directs his speech to them ? nobiscum estis in baptismo , &c. that is , you are with vs in baptism , you are with vs in the symbol , or creed , you are with vs in the rest of our lords sacraments ( and i may safely add with regard to some of them at least , you are with vs in a good life , with the former exception ) but in the spirit of vnity and bound of peace , and lastly , in the catholick church you are not with vs : and so he leaues them to the punishment due to those who are out of it , and separated from christ its head . to conclude , i ask this counter-question concerning a christian liuing , for example , in the fift age of the church , why the belieuing of the apostles creed ( as those of the first age did ) and leading a good life , may not be sufficient for salvation to such a one , vnless he continue in the communion of his lawfull ecclesiasticall superiors of his owne age , requiring of him vnder anathema , or penalty of damnation the belief not only of the symbol of the apostles , but of all the articles of the athanasian creed ( as in the beginning and conclusion of that creed it is clear they did ▪ here , what answer the doctor shall make to this question ( supposing he will not justify such separatist ) i cannot imagin but it must fitt his own . here therefore such a christians business for knowing whether he stands safe as to his faith and life in order to saluation , seems to be , that he seriously examin , whether those whose communion he rejects , are the true legall ecclesiasticall superiors who are sett ouer him by our lord , and to whom he is enjoyned obedience , and with whom he ought to liue ( to vse s. augustins words ) in the spirit of vnity and bound of peace . xxx . principle . 30. there can be no better way to preuent mens mistakes in the sense of scripture ( which men being fallible are subject to ) then the considering the consequence of mistaking in a matter wherein their saluation is concerned : and there can be no sufficient reason giuen why that may not serue in matters of faith which god himself hath made vse of as the means to keep men from sin in their liues : vnless any jmagin , that errors in opinion are farr more dangerous to mens souls , then a vicious life is , and therefore god is bound to take more care to preuent the one then the other . whereas the doctor says , that the best way to preuent mens mistakes in the sence of scripture is the considering the consequence of erring in a matter wherein their saluation is concerned : our dayly sad experience shews , that though our seeing or considering the dangerous consequence of a mistake affords vs , how good soeuer , yet no certain way to preuent it ; but our being directed by an infallible externall guide , certainly doth . and the consideration of such consequence , should hasten euery one to prouide this only certain remedy , i mean , in committing himself in such matters of faith as are much disputed , to the guidance of men more studied and experienced in the diuine laws ; and that are also sett ouer him by our lord for this very thing to instruct him in them . where in case these guides shall disagree , yet euery christian may easily know whose judgments among them he ought to follow : namely , always of that church-authority that is the superior , which in most cases is indisputable ; this ecclesiasticall body being placed by the diuine prouidence in an exact subordination . as here in england it is not doubted whether we are to pay our obedience rather to a nationall synod then to a diocesan ; to the arch-bishop or primat , then to an ordinary bishop or presbiter ; and then , he who hath some experience in church affairs , if willing to take such a course , cannot but discern what way the major part of christendom , and its higher and more comprehensiue councills that haue hitherto been , do guide him . and the more simple and ignorant , who so can come to know nothing better , ought to follow their example . as touching the following clause in this principle , that the same means may serue to keep men from error in matters of faith , as is vsed by god to keep men from sin in their liues . hereto i add , that here god hath taken care by the same church-authority to preserue his church in truth , and to restrain it from sin : giuing them an equall commission to teach the ignorant , and to correct the vicious . and since their doctrine directs our manners as well as faith , their infallibility is as necessary for things of practise , as of speculation . error in opinion also may be such , as may be much more dangerous to vs , then for the present a vicious life , supposing our persistance in a right faith ; because we haue our conscience still left vncorrupted to reclame vs in the later , but not so in the former : and there is more hopes of his recouery , who as yet doth ill with a relucting judgment . some erroneous opinions or other also are the ordinary sources and springs of euill practises ; and the doctor cannot but acknowledg this , who hath spent a considerable part of the book , to which he hath annexed these principles , vpon pretending to shew , how roman errors do induce an euill life , and destroy deuotion . iii. the doctors consequences , examined . i. consequence . 1. there is no necessity at all , or vse of an infallible society of men to assure men of the truth of those things of which they may be certain without , and cannot haue any greater assurance , supposing such infallibility to be in them . 1. this consequence here is voyded , because the supposition , if applied to diuine reuelations and matters of faith , in the former principles is not prooued . 2. but if the whole were granted , this concludes the vselesness as well of any ecclesiasticall authority to teach men , as of an infallible , to assure men of the truth of those things , which , by vsing only their owne sincere endeauour ( according to the doctors pretence , principle 13. ) they may know without them . ii. consequence . 2. the infallibility of that society of men who call themseleus the catholick church , must be examined by the same faculties in man , the same rules of tryall , the same motiues by which the infallibility of any diuine reuelation is . this consequence , couched only in generall terms , is granted in the same manner as the 6. principle is , changing ( must ) here into ( may . ) but then of many things examined and discouered by the same way or means , some are much more easily by euery one examined and discouered then some others , as the euidence for them in this means are greater . so holy scriptures belieued such from vniuersall tradition , may be much clearer in some articles of our faith , then in others : and some diuine reuelations may be so obscurely expressed there , or inuolued only in their principles , as that some weak capacities cannot discern them , which yet in the same scriptures may discouer the authority of the church and its promised diuine assistance and infallibility in necessaries , and so from thence learn those other . of which church and its infallibility clear in scriptures , for all necessaries , and for deciding other points more obscure therein , thus writes s. augustin in his dispute with the donatists concerning the obscure point of rebaptization : quoniam sacra scriptura fallere non potest , &c. since the holy scripture cannot deceiue ( vs ) let whosoeuer is in fear of being deceiued by the obscurity of this question , consult the same church about it , which church the holy scripture doth without all ambiguity demonstrate . and before , earumdem scripturarum etiam in hac re a nobis tenetur veritas , cum , &c. that is , the truth of the holy scriptures is held by vs in this matter ( or point of rebaptization ) when we do that which has pleased the vniuersall church , ( that is which had been stated concerning that point by the church ) which the authority of the scriptures themselues does commend ; that since , &c. thus writes s. augustin . all which is false and sayd to no purpose , if the scripture be not clear in this , that this church can determine nothing in such important contests contrary to the verity of the scriptures , and that we ought to giue credit to what he decides ; for then it would not be true what he says , the truth of the same scriptures in this matter is held by vs : and , he who is in fear to be deceiued by the obscurity of this question , is no way relieued in following the sentence of the church . now if it be further asked , amongst those seuerall modern opposit communions , which do equally inuite men into their society by the name of the church , which of them is so diuinely attested ; there are beside the description made of it in scripture , not applicable to other pretended churches , and frequently vrged by the same father against the donatists , there are , i say , sufficiently certain rationall euidences and marks thereof left to christians , whereby the sober enquirer after it , cannot be mistaken . i mean not here those marks of the true church ( though true marks also ) the quest of which men are sett vpon by protestants , viz. true doctrine , and a right administration of the sacraments , a quest or tryall that can neuer be made an end of , being a task to know all the truths in christianity first , before we can know the church : when as the enquirer seeks after the church , which as s. augustin sayth , the scripture demonstrates , that by it he may come to know the truths . but i mean those other marks mention'd by s. augustin in the book he wrote of the benefit of belieuing the church , viz. sequentium multitudo , &c. the multitude of her followers , the consent of nations , her antiquity , &c. which church hath descended ( visibly ) from christ himself by his apostles vnto vs , and from vs will descend to posterity , &c. and which by the confession of mankind from the apostolick see by succession of bishops hath obtained the supreme top of authority , whilst hereticks on all sides barked against her in vain , and were still condemned partly by the judgment euen of the common people , partly by the ( venerable ) grauity of councills , and partly also by the majesty of miracles , ( that is , by miracles done in this church after the apostles times ; of seuerall of which , s. augustin himself was an eye-witness , and of some an instrument . the same father repeats much-what the same in another book of his , de vnitate ecclesiae against the donatists , a sect in africk . non est obscura quaestio , &c. it is no obscure question , says he , ( viz. which is the true church ) in which those may deceiue you , who according to our lords prediction shall come and say , behold here is christ , behold he is there , behold he is in the desart , as in a place where the multitude is not great . ( the time was , when the reformation were constrained to vse the like phrases , and also to apply to themselues that text , fear not little flock ) but you haue a church ( described in in the scripture ) to be spredd through all regions , and to grow still ( in conuersion of nations ) till the haruest : you haue a city concerning which he that was the founder of it , sayd , a city built on a hill cannot be hid . this is the church therefore , not in some corner of the earth ; but euery where most known . now i hope none will think fitt to apply these scriptures more to s. augustins time then to any other , or to the present : for , by the same reason , the donatists might here haue counter-applied them to some other , and not to s. augustins times . much what the same is iterated again by this father ( and three testimonies , i hope , will establish this matter ) where he tells the manicheans what retained him in the bosome of that church from which they stood separated , vt omittam sapientiam , &c. that is , that i may omitt that wisdome , ( viz. the mark of true doctrine ) which you do not belieue to be in the catholick church ; there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosome . the consent of peoples and nations keeps me there . authority begun by miracles , confirmed by antiquity keeps me there . the succession of pastors , from the seat it self of s. peter ( to whom our lord after his resurrection recommended his sheep to be fedd by him ) vnto the present bishop , keeps me there . and lastly , the very name of catholick heeps me there , &c. here are s. augustins marks to find our the church from which men were to learn the truth , whilst proposed to seuerall persons and sects , always the same . and these are the euidences in tradition , and in those other commonly call'd motiues of credibility , which in themselues seeme not justly questionable , that will afford a sufficient certainty to euery sober enquirer , whereby he may try and discern that present church , to which now also , if in s. augustins time , christ affords a testimony : and which lyeth not in corners , nor starts vp after some ages , and vanishes again , but is fixed ab apostolica sede per successiones episcoporum ; a city sett on a hill in the most extended vnity of an externall communion , which no other christian society can equall ; a candle on a candlestick ; a perpetuall , erected , visible pillar and monument of truth , frustra haereticis circumlatrantibus . where also according to the disparity of seuerall mens capacities , i suppose nothing more necessary then that this euidence receiued eyther from all , or only some of these notes ( to those who haue not ability to examin others ) be such as that it out-weigh any arguments mouing him to the contrary ; and the like euidence to which is thought sufficient to determin vs in other elections . and then this church thus being found , he may be resolued by it concerning the sence of other diuine reuelations more dubious , and generally all other scrupules in religion : to witt , so farr as this church from time to time seeth a necessity of such resolution , and the diuine reuelation therein is to her sufficiently clear ; only if such person , not spending so much of his own judgment , will afford , instead of it , a little more of his obedience . iii. consequence . 3. the less conuincing the miracles , the more doubtfull the marks , the more obscure the sence of eyther what is called the catholick church , or declared by it , the less reason hath any christian to belieue vpon the account of any who call themselues by the name of the catholick church . all this is true , vpon supposition that matters stand as the doctor would pretend : but such supposition being groundless , he must giue me leaue to inuert his consequence , and say : the more conuincing the miracles ( if any credit for these may be giuen to church-history ) the more euident the marks ( euen now giuen by s. augustin and modern catholick writers ; ) the more clear and manifest ( euen to simple persons , who with much difficulty in seuerall places comprehend the sense of controuerted scripture ) is the catholick church , ( whose representatiue are the subordinate councills , and whose gouernors the seuerall degrees of the ecclesiasticall hierarchy , ascending to the prime see of s. peter ; ) and the more clear also the points declared by it , ( viz. in these councills , whose decrees ( suppose that of trent ) if questioned for their truth , are not for their perspicuity , and particularly in the points of controuersy they assembled to determin between protestants and catholicks ; ) the more reason hath any christian to belieue vpon the account of those who call themselues by the name , and challenge the high priuiledges ( which no other separated socityes of christians do ) of the catholick church . iv. consequence . 4. the more absurd any opinions are , and repugnant to the first principles of sense and reason which any church obtrudes vpon the faith of men ; the greater reason men still haue to reject the pretence of infallibility in that church , as a grand imposture . the higher any points of faith be , and the more remote from sense and naturall reason , or , not comprehensiue by them , which such church as is named before , ( and in the highest capacity of it , generall councils ) proposeth to the faith of christians , the more noble exercise they haue of their faith , whilst they haue an abundant certainty also that such leaders can misguide them in nothing necessary to saluation . and no reason haue they , vpon such improbabilities or contradictions to sense or naturall reason , to suspect or be jealous of the churches infallibility as an imposture ; which church they see , through what euer obstacles , faithfully adheres to the diuine oracles , how incredible soeuer to nature ; and may be thought , because it seems not swayed or hindred by these at all , to vse more integrity in her judgment , and fidelity to the diuine reuelations . yet this is not sayd , as if the judgment of our sences , appointed by god the instruments ( by hearing or reading them ) of conueying faith and his diuine reuelations to vs , affords not a sufficient naturall certainty or infallibility , whereon to ground our belief in all those things subject to our senses , wherein the diuine power doth not interpose : but only . 1. that where the diuine power worketh any thing supernaturally , that is , contrary to our senses , ( as it may no doubt ) here we are not to belieue them : and this , i think , none can deny : 2. and next , that we are to belieue this diuine power doth so , so often as certain diuine reuelation tells vs so , though by the same senses if tells us so , we belieuing our senses , that it tells vs so , when we do not belieue the same senses for the thing which is contrary to what it tells vs ; the truth of which diuine reuelation we are to learn from gods church , infallibly assisted in necessary faith. for otherwise lot and his daughters were not to credit the diuine reuelation ( supposing that diuine history then written and extant ) that the seeming men who came to sodome were angells , because this was against their senses . now here , would he argue well , who because lots sight was actually deceiued vpon this supernaturall accident , in taking the angells to be men , as certainly it was , from hence would inferr , that the apostles had no sufficiēt certainty or ground , from their seeing our lord , to belieue him risen from the dead ? or that no belief could euer be certainly grounded vpon our senses ? nor that christians haue any certain foundation of their faith ? for a naturall or morall certainty , though such as is per potentiam diuinam fallible and errable , and is to be belieued to err where euer we haue diuine reuelation for it , not else , i say , a certainty ( though not such an one as cannot possibly be false , but which according to the laws of nature and the common manners and experience of men is not false ) is sufficient on which to ground such a faith as god requires of vs , in respect of that certainty which can be deriued from humane sense or reason , and which serues for an introductiue to the relyance of this our faith vpon such reuelation as is belieued by vs diuine ; and which if diuine , we know is not possibly fallible ; in respect of its relying on which reuelation , an infallible object , and not for an infallible certainty , as to the subject , it is , that this our faith is denominated a diuine faith. now this naturall or morall certainty , is thought sufficient for the first rationall introductiue and security of our faith , not only by the doctor in his 27. principle , but also by catholick diuines in their discourses of the prudentiall motiues . v. consequence . 5. to disown what is taught by such a church , is not to question the veracity of god , but so firmly to adhere to that , in what he hath reuealed in scriptures , that men dare not , out of loue to their souls , reject what is so taught . to disown what is taught by such a church , as we have here represented it , will be to desert what god hath reuealed in the scriptures ; the true meaning of which reuelations , when controuerted , we are to receiue from it . and so men ought not , out of loue to their souls , reject what is so taught . vi. conseqvence . 6. though nothing were to be belieued as the will of god , but what is by the catholick church declared to be so : yet this doth not at all concerne the church of rome , which neyther is the catholick church , nor any sound part or member of it . this may suffice to shew the validity of the principles on which the faith of protestants stands , and the weakness of those of the church of rome . from all which it follows , that it can be nothing but willfull ignorance , weakness of judgment , strength of prejudice , or some sinfull passion , which makes any one forsake the communion of the church of england , to embrace that of the church of rome . if nothing is to be belieued as the will of god , but what is by the catholick church declared to be so : and the declarations of the catholick church be taken from her councills ; and , in concills dissenting , from the more vniuersall and generall , ( the constant way of the churches judgment , ) this church catholick , as to such councills and courts ecclesiasticall hath neuer been seuered from the roman and s. peters chair . and this may suffice to shew the weakness of those principles on which the faith of protestants stands , and the validity of those of the church of rome . from which it follows , that if there be no willfull ignorance , nor sinfull passion , nor strength of prejudice and secular interest in our countreymen , yet it must be at least much neglect of examining things which most concerne them , and diuerting their thoughts vpon other employments , or conuersing with such authors and teachers as confirm to them those opinions in which they were educated , and the like , that detains them still in a communion diuided , and this not very long since , from the catholick . as to the doctors imputing only to ignorance , sinfull passion , &c. that any forsake the communion of the church of england : it is plain that his former principles do no more support the religion of the church of england , then of any other protestants sect condemned by it : all which sects for the doctrines they hold , and controuersies they maintain with others , equally appeal to the clearness of the infallible scriptures , sufficiently intelligible vnto their sincere endeauours , and decline , as fallible , all other ecclesiasticall authority . so wolketius for the socinians ( as the doctor for the church of england ) sayth , quae de fide , &c. those things which are to be established touching faith in christ , are manifest in the scriptures . and again , deus qui religionem christianam , &c. god hauing determined that christian religion shall continue till the end of the world , has taken care that there should be always extant such a mean by which it may be certainly known , as farr as is necessary to saluation , but no such mean is extant , except the holy scriptures . to the same purpose crellius another socinian , says , hac sententia , &c. this doctrin ( by which christs diuinity is denyed ) is supported by very many , and the most euident , testimonies of holy scriptures . it is needless to cite more . from whence is manifest , that such principles as here appear only in the defence of the religion established in the church of england , make the same apology for all those other protestant parties , and most blasphemous sects , disclaimed by it : the doctor in the mean while omitting that by which the former learned defenders of his church vsually haue justified it against them , namely , the church of englands adhering to the traditionall exposition and sense of scripture receiued from the primitiue church : this , i say , he omitted , perhaps because it may be thought to relish a little of church-infallibility . neyther do the principles here layd down , afford any effectuall way or means in this church of suppressing or conuicting any schism , sect , or heresy , or reducing them eyther to submission of judgment , or silence . for where both sides contend scripture clear for themselues ; the clearness of such scripture , how great soeuer on one side , can be made no instrument of conuiction to the other . here therefore all things must be prosecuted further then scripture , to a ( dic ecclesiae ) tell the church : and so to a ( si autem ecclesiam non audierit ) but if he will not hear the church , let him be to thee as a heathen and publican . if then it is the churches authority that must rectify such diuersity of opinions , one would think that this ought to haue been first established , instead of leauing euery fancy to perspicuity of scripture for the attaining vnity and peace in the points controuerted . and the prudent may consider , whether the authority of the church of england is not much debilitated and brought into contempt , and dayly like to wane more and more by this new-taken-vp way of its defence ; where he thinks himself it's best aduocat and defender of its cause , who doth most endeauour to sett forth the defects and faylings of all such ecclesiasticall societies , prelats , and councills , and best proues no scripture-promises made to them . nay where , to the end to euacuate the infallibility of any society or church in necessaries , is set vp a counter-lay-infallibility of priuate men , if only sincere endeauourers of vnderstanding holy writt , in all the same necessaries . this is done , which causeth still more sects , instead of that which , if done , would cure them , namely , the recommending ( especially to the illiterate and less intelligent common sort of people ) humility , obedience , submission of judgment to their spirituall pastors and gouernors , whom our lord hath ordained by due succession to continue to the end of the world on purpose to expound the scriptures , and out of these to teach them all necessaries for their saluation , and to heep them stable and fixed from being tossed to and fro with euery wind of doctrin , that capricious fancies may imagin there , or malicious pretend : informing them , that they are to learn of these pastors , the true sense of gods word according to former church-tradition , to follow their faith and to rest in their iudgment . lastly , not to vsurp their office , and become their owne guides : inasmuch as the same diuine order that appoints the others to guide , enjoyns them to be guided . and supposing these guides should err too ; better it is that all err one error , which is the error of their guides , for there will be at least some vnity and peace in that , some excuse for inferiors ; yea also , in probability more verisimilitude ; then that euery one should err a seuerall , and his own , error , to the vtter ruine uf peace , and a greater deuiation from truth . but whilst these things are so little spoken of , it is no great wonder if vnder the protection of such contrary maximes spread abroad , which were first made more current and common by m r chillingworth ( forced to it as the last refuge left to shelter him from obedience to a just church-authority ) the broachers of new sects and extrauagant fancies in religion , the contemners of church-authority and of the clergy , ( who first contemned and vilified themselues ) do dayly in these parts so exceedingly multiply and encrease ) sed tu , pastor bone , reduc in ouile tuum istas oues perditas , vt audiant vocem tuam : & sic fiat vnum ouile & vnus pastor . amen . errata . pref p , 6. l. 1. his . l. his . l. 2. must . l. much . l. 20. d. not . p. 35. l. 31. te . l. be . p. 48. l. 23. incnrs . l. incurs . p. 78. by disputes . l. by-disputes . p. 81. l. 12. consideration . l. consid . p. 99. l. 29. heep . l. keep . p. 100. l. 14. uf . l. of . courteous reader , because the necessity of making use of a forreign press hath so multipled the errata of this small piece either in words , or pointing , as to render several places of it hardly intelligible , you are desired to amend with your pen , at least , those grosser faults that are distinguished here with a star ; and , where else the sense may seem obscure , to repair to this table . preface . pag. 21. marg. read see p. 69. * ibid. l. 6. r. cannot think ibid. l. 9. r. be a p. 4. l. 11. r. and unmoveable p. 6. l. 2. r. much book . pag. 1. l. 2. r. principles , giving p , 2. l. 11. marg. § . 1. p. 4. l. 6. marg. § . 2. p. 6. l. 10. marg. § . 3. * l. 17. r. and all l. 25. r. controverted p. 7. l. 13. r. or society l. 22. marg. § . 4. * p. 9. l. 23. marg. § . 5. p. 11. l. 24. marg. deut. 17. 8. 2 chron. 19. 10. p. 15. l. 28. r. christian p. 18. l. 20. marg. tillots . rule of faith p. 113. ibid. l. 27. marg. dele tillots . p. 113. p. 20. l. 30 dele , ) * l. 31. r. sense ) * p. 21. l. 6. r. repentance of it , l. 19. r. present much major part of christianity , professeth l. 20. r. this scripture * p. 23. l. 13. r. or p. 25. l. 9. r. iudgments . 2 chr. 19. 10. * p. 32. l. 21. r. any can * p. 33. l. 6. r. taken in her sense * l. 10. r. catholick church l. 11. r. [ that is , in l. 13. r. page , ] l. 18. r. salvation , and , * l. 31. r. ( therefore such p. 35. l. 32. r. be * p. 36. l. 13. r. infallible [ the infallibility in question . ] surely , l. 15. r. fundamentals , & marg. see rat. * l. 26. r. not as liable p. 38. l. 2. r. necessary , the * p. 39. l. 16 r. too , these successors p. 40. l. 10. r. and the protestant's allowing l. 28. rendring such their p. 41. l. 4. r. account ) * l. 9. marg. r. ibid. p. 512. p. 42. l. 16. r. scripture , l. 23. marg. r. matt. 18. 17. p. 45. l. 9. r. in some matters * l. 12. r. council , but are not as yet stated such by any clear decision p. 48. l. 2. r. guide : their l. 16. r. are not , if p. 51. l. 8. r. infallibly certain * p. 55. l. 17. r. matter at all * p. 56. l. 20. r. revelation , as to the * p. 57. l. 4. dele , their l. 13. r. consideration * p. 58. l. 7. r. established there , to * p. 68. l. 24. r. as for the other , the protestants , * p. 70. l. 4. r. as , because i p. 73. l. 13. r. so ) : there * l. 21. marg. see before § . 27. * l. 28. r. contrary to it p. 74. l. 20. dele , that * p. 75. l. 15. r. external p. 77. l. 4. dele , in the * l. 30. r. when knowing * p. 78. l. 1. r. digress l. 2. r. book of l. 13. r. church ] l. 16. r. ( else p. 79. l. 18. r. and so separated p. 80. l. 13. r. bond of peace . * p. 81. l. 6. dele , though * p. 86. l. 6. r. she decides * p. 86. l. 11. see below * l. ult . r. know these truths p. 87. l. 12. r. have barked * l. 29. r. as if in p. 89. l. 3. r. evidences , in * l. 22. r. more to be necessary * p. 96. l. 23. r. conversing only with p. 97. l. 6. r. protestant sect l. 17. r. volkelius marg. r. uno deo * p. 98. l. 13. r. omitteth p. 100. l. 3. r. iudgement ; lastly l. 28. r. increase . sed * p. 86. l. 11. after the church , r. nor had st. augustin any reason to presume ( as he doth ib. c. 4. ) that st. cyprian would have corrected his opinion concerning this point ; or to charge the donatists with heresie for dissenting from it , after the determination of such a council : nor had the second general council any just ground to put it in the creed [ credo unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum ] if such universal councils in their stating matters of faith , are errable and amendable . errata in the discourse concerning devotion : ( those of mis-pointing being mostwhat omitted . ) the principal errata ( noted with a star ) the reader is desired to correct with his pen. pages . line 21. marg . read 8. 26. p 6 l. 27 r. became a * p 9 l. 24 r. long-continued * p 10 l. 10 r. thus * l. 16 r. thus * l. 22 r. 2. it p 11 l. 9 r. abscondi p 13 l. 24. marg . r. act. 16. 6 , 7 , 9. 20. 22 , 23. 8. 19. 19. 21. 1 tim. 1. 18 4 14. p 15 l. 17. r. hysterical — p 18 l. 25 r. this inhabitation p 19 l 5 r. and , phil. 3. p 21 l. 2. r where , * after p 24. ●l . 20. marg . r. s. thom. 1. q. 1 art. 8. l. penult . r. 5. but there p 25 l 22 r. spirit , pretends p 26 l. 21 r. ( see l. 22 r. 2. 6. ) p 28 l. 2 r. sin , especially * p 29 l. 30 r. those * p 30 l. 25 r. and it , if p 31 l. 17 r. counsels * p 32 l. 18 r. leaves us * p 34 l. 27 r. inconsiderable * p 38 l. 5 r. 6. having * p 39 l. 26 r. also frequently return * p 40 l. 17 r. and rovings about p 41 l. 21 r. thereof . treat 3. p 42 l. 24 r. them happen to fall p 43 l. 1 r. works in us p 45 l. 22 r. left somtimes * l. 32 r. a●olatiomentis p 46 l. 16 r. primary p 48 l 16 r. mundanis ) * p 50 l. 21 r. si cui p 51 l. 3 r. canting p 52 l. 31 r. meae — suble● a us * p 53 l. 33 r. utcunque p 55 l. 13 r. peccatis * l. 21 r. quia , si l. 34 r. immerito * p 56 l. 17 r. elsewhere , * — fortasse ne * l. 22 r. praecesserat l. 23. r. esse l. 26 r. sanctuarium dei , si l. 31 r. quidem hic * p 58 l. 16 r. ellae bullienti substraxeris , p 61 l. 27 r. cogit , nec cogitur * p 62 l. 25 r. unexperienced * p 63 l. 10 r. understand * p 66 l. 21 r. as they are — ib. apprehends l. 31 r. christi , and * p 67 l. 4 r. such persons , as l. 23 r. virtute * l. 28 r. retractation p 69 l. 22 r. cand * p 70 l. 17 r. because , to any p 74 l. 29 r. lest i should incur his censure * p 75 l. 2 r. cited § . 13 l. 13 r. ipse * p 76 l. 25 r. lumen p 77 l. 5 r. phantasmes l. 33 r. ( for , now , p 78 l. 1 r. contemplation ) l. 5 r. when our * l. 27 r. stamp them * l. 32 r. li●que * p 79 l. 16 r. contemplatur l. 21 r. — sponsa l. 22 r. ipsam l. 32 r. beginners : and p 80 l. 1 r. the other , l. 7 r. before § . 25. p 81 l. 8 marg . r. see § . 32. &c. * p 82 l. 1 r. laudable * p 83 l. 4 r. deiforme fund p 84 l. 3 r. 1 cor. 13. 12. p 86 l. 13 r. by — intentions * l. 32 r. tuumque spiritum * p 95 l. 21 r. to god. * p 97 l. 12 r 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * l. 30 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * p 98 l. 9 r. passage of his . * p 99 l. 3. marg . r. § . 49. & 51 * p. 100. l. 20. r. gestures , * p 102 l. 28 r. ( which they * p 104 l. 28 r. before § . 14. * p 106 l. 2 r. lawfulness of which is l. 15 r. in two lawfull p 109 l. 8 r. impulses of the p 110 l. 33 r. praying for his p 111 l. 21. r. himself to de — dele , indifferent p 112. l. 7 r. before § . 20. &c. p 113 l. 15 r. those who are judged errata in the discourse concerning repentance and indulgences . page 43. line 7. read third , the p. 48 l. 10. r. fragilitatem * page 78 l. 19. read the calf l. 31. r. purgandum p. 83. l. 27. r. superfluas indulgentias l. 29. r. inanes , & * p. 123. l. 14. r. to father them . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a34966-e100 rom. idol . p. 557. 1. ib p. 69. 134. &c. 142. 159. 161. 2. 3. synod . a. d. 1603. c. 4. 5. 36. &c. stat. 13. elizab. c. 12. ration . account . p. 55. chillingw p. 200. notes for div a34966-e560 principl . confideration . 1. princ. consid. 2. princ. consid. 3. princ. consid. 4. princ. consid ▪ 5. princ. consid. additional . 6. princ ▪ consid. 7. princ. consid. 8. princ. consid. 9. princ. consid. 10. princ. 11. princ. §. 6. consid. 12. princ. §. 7. consid. 13. princ. §. 8. consid. §. 9. §. 10. chilling . p. 19. §. 11. tillots p. 113. §. 12. §. 13. claud. in his last . reply . l. 111. c. 13. 14. princ. consid. §. 14. §. 15. field of the church p. 377. 15. princ. consid ▪ §. 16 ▪ §. 17. §. 18. 2. chron. xix . x. deuteron xvii . x. xi . xii . §. 19. 16. princ. consid. §. 20. see . ap. laud. p. 139. 140 compared vvith p. 160. 195 258. 346 see also rationall acc. p. 53 59. 537. §. 21. §. 22. §. 23. aug. de ciuit. dei 22. book . 8. chapt. §. 24. see. rat. account . p. 536. see rat. account . p. 50. 6. ib. p. 539. §. 25. ib. p. 59. ib. p. 537. ap. lavvd , p. 227. rat. account . p. 535. §. 26. ap. lavvd . §. 37. p. 318. ib. §. 21. p. 140. ib. 25. n. 4 ib. ib. ib. p. 258. rational account p. 154. p. 252. the infallibility in question . see ration . account p. 58. 59. 17. princ. consid. §. 27. §. 28. § 29. §. 30. see ration . account p. 2●…5 . it . p 204. 208. 209 and the places 〈◊〉 cited out of the archbishop . ib. p. 108. §. 31. §. 32. ib. p. 506. §. 34. ib. p. 101 deuter. 17. math. §. 35. hist. of the counc . of trent . p. 228. roman idolatry . p. 7 449. 453. § 36. tillots . in rule of faith. p. 92. 93. 18. princ. consid. §. 37. ephes. 4. 11. 13. 14 2. peter . 3. 16. §. 38. contra crescon lib. 1. c. 33. §. 39. 19. princ. consrd . §. 40. §. 41. prov. 3. 5. 20. princ. consid. §. 42. 21. princ. consid. §. 43. §. 44. see suarez de fide dispu . 4. §. 5. n. 7. 8 9 lugo de virtute fidei disp p. 1. §. 12. vasquez . 1. 2. disput . 120. n. 15. esti . in 3. sent . d. 25. §. 13. south wall analys . fidei disp. 3. c. 8. 22 prine . consid. §. 46. resp. 1. cap. de abusibus . act. 〈◊〉 . l. w●rt . p. 56 rom idol . p. 78. &c. 23. princ. consid. §. 47. 24. princ. consid. §. 48. §. 49. rat. acct p. 58. 25. princ. consid. §. 50. 26. princ. consid. §. 51. 27. princ. consid. §. 52. 28 princ. consid. §. 53. hebr. 13. 7. de vnit. 19. rational . account . p. 133. 16. p. 58. hebr. 13. 17. 29. princ. consid. §. 54. §. 55. §. 56. rat. account p. 162. 208. 210 §. 57. §. 58. § 59. rationall . acc. p. 539. §. 60. §. 61 ▪ see synod 1603. can. 36. and can . 5. stat. 13 eliz. c. 12 and title of the act. §. 62. roman . idol . p. 52. aug. ep. 48. 30. princ. consid. §. 63. §. 64. §. 65. 1. conseq . consid. §. 66. 2. conseq . august . contra crescon . l. 1. c. 33 ibid. §. 67. see. rat. account . p. 7. aug. cont . epist fundam . c. 4. id. de vtil . creden . c. 11. 14. 16. 17 aug. de ciu. d. l. xxii . c. 8. confess . l. 9. c. 7. possid . in vita aug. ● . 29. id. de vnit. eccle. c. 25. idem cont . ep. fund . c. 4. 3. conseq . consid. §. 68. 4. conseq . consid. §. 69. §. 70. see stilling . roman . idol . p. 540. it. rat. account p. 117. 567. tillatson . p. 275. 5. conseq . consid. §. 71. 6. conseq . consid. §. 72. §. 73. §. 74. volket . de vera relig. l. 5. c. 7. crell . l. de vno dei patre . in praefat. §. 7. the salvation of protestants asserted and defended in opposition to the rash and uncharitable sentence of their eternal damnation pronounc'd against them by the romish church / by j.h. dalhusius ... ; newly done into english. dalhusius, johannes h. (johannes hermanus) 1689 approx. 163 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 42 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a35885 wing d132 estc r1473 13172582 ocm 13172582 98308 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a35885) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 98308) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 734:34) the salvation of protestants asserted and defended in opposition to the rash and uncharitable sentence of their eternal damnation pronounc'd against them by the romish church / by j.h. dalhusius ... ; newly done into english. dalhusius, johannes h. (johannes hermanus) [19], 64 p. printed for james adamson ..., london : 1689. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism. 2006-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-09 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-06 taryn hakala sampled and proofread 2008-06 taryn hakala text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion imprimatur , liber cui titulus , the salvation of the protestants asserted and defended , &c. guil. needham , r. r. in christo p. ac d. d. whihelmo archiep. cantuar. a sacris domest . octob. 1. 1688. the salvation of protestants asserted and defended , in opposition to the rash and uncharitable sentence of their eternal damnation pronounc'd against them by the romish church . by j. h. dalhusius , inspector of the churches , in the county of weeden , upon the rhine , &c. newly done into english . london : printed for james adamson , at the angel and crown in st. paul's church-yard , 1689. the preface . health to the reader from the fountain of health . courteous reader , it is sit thou should'st in the first place be acquainted with the occasion of the following discourse ; which was this : from heddesdorff , where my sacred calling gave me an abode for almost five years together , lyes distant , about an hours riding , that celebrated abbey in rommersdorff , belonging to the fryers called predemonstrators , who affirm to be founder of their order , in the year 1120 , one norbert , first a canon in the church of st. victor of santen , near the city of cleve , which , as they say , laid the first foundations of santen ; afterwards chaplain to lotharius of saxony ; and lastly , by the authority of this emperor primate of germany , that is to say , archbishop of magdeburgh , according to the verses , anno milleno centeno bis quoque deno , sub patre norberto fundatur candidus ordo . they are called praemonstratenses , or predemonstrators ( if we may believe the story ) because the place for the first building of the abbey , was shew'd before-hand to norbert , as he was at his prayers . and they wear a white habit , for that the mother of god brought him a habit of that colour , as the norbertines not long since vaunted , thus bespeaking their founder ; cruce locus praemonstratus ubi struas regiam . sancta tibi virgo mater vestem praebet niveam . sanctus augustinus pater auro praescribit regulam . where thy palace thou shouldst build , the cross the place doth shew ; the holy virgin mother brings thy habit white as snow . holy austin doth unfold thy order's rule in gold. the foresaid norbert held the see of magdeburgh seven years and ten months . he dy'd in the year of christ 1134 , upon st. peter and paul the apostles day ; and was buried in the church of the blessed virgin ; where , in the year 1625 , by the command of the emperor ferdinand ii , his stone sepulchre was broken open , and his reliques thence translated in great pomp to prague . and so dead norbert was made the living saint and patron of bohemia . now in regard the successors of this norbert , among which are the abbots of rommersdorff , frequently visit our court of weeden , and this village of heddesdorff , either to look after their farms and rents , or as any other occasions draw them ; and by that means were often wont to be in my company , i thought it not only decent , but most christianlike , at all times and in all places to shew them all the civility and honest friendship i could ; and from thence forward hitherto so continu'd to do , as faras lay in my power . they , on the other side , observing this , made reciprocal returns of bounty , respect and love ; as often as i went to visit them . confiding therefore in this mutual amity and familiarity , i presum'd , upon the last of december , to send to the present right reverend lord abbot charles wurstius , my kindest wishes of prosperity for the ensuing year . nevertheless , to this civility of mine , the next morning , such was the rudeness and barbarity of his prior , that for answer he sent me the subsequent letter , the contents of which are verbatim as follows . to the reverend and learned mr. john herman dalhusius , for the time curate in heddesdorf , and inspector of the county of weeden , his much respected friend . heddesdorff . rommersdorff . reverend and much respected mr. inspector , by the command of my lord abbot , now upon business abroad , against the approaching new year , according to your calender , i pray for , and heartily wish you a good beginning , progress , and a fortunate couclusion of it . moreover i have sent you , according to your desire , oats for your money , together with your treatise imparted . to us against the anabaptistical heresie ( sufficiently and clearly formerly refuted and condemn'd by the roman catholic church . ) we have perused it , and are pleas'd with your zeal , but we should have lik'd it much better , if after you had implor'd the grace of the holy ghost , the only enlightner of obdurate hearts , you had bin first a convert to the lord god , by abjuring the errors of your faith , and returning to the ship , and ( which is the roman catholic and only saving church ) st. peter's net ; out of which , by reason of the vast multitude of the fish , the authors and first founders of the anabaptistical and other errors , fell down , according to the catholic belief , into the profoundest sea of hell ; of whom the ring-leader was luther : whose success , i grieve to speak it , so fatal to hundreds of thousands of souls , encouraging melancthon , zuinglius , oecolampadius , menno , calvin , and several others , to the end they might raise to themselves a great name in the world , and serve their carnal desires , coyn'd and forg'd several other opinions repugnant to truth , nevertheless condemn'd by the roman catholic church , according to the custom observ'd from the very beginning of it , as the authors of them were excommunicated . i could wish your reverence would more studiously peruse the catholic writers with sounder judgment , that you would foresee your last end , and while you live , consult the good of your own soul , lest after you have run the race of this mortal life , in company with those sublime doctors , as you stile them in your treatise against the anabaptists , you be not only depriv'd of eternal felicity , but burn in the infernal everlasting fire . this wholsom admonition , more precious then gold and all the kingdoms of the world , patiently and kindly accept instead of a new-years-gift , and live eternally the favourer of him , who is thy brother most desirous of thy salvation , prior for the time . john gaspar baldem , truly i was amaz'd at the sight of such a merciless monster , that instead of the roses of desired friendship , cast before me baskets of thorny bryers ; and rejecting the salvation of christ , pax vobis , denounc'd a laborious war against me , yet glorious for the truth of the catholic evangelical faith. for now , as the case stood , my pen was to be drawn in defence of that , and to wipe off pretended stains . wherefore i return'd an answer , tho' overwhelm'd with the duties of my calling during the several holy-days at that time of the year ; and within the space of a few days , i finish'd the following apology for the salvation of christian protestants , and took care to have it convey'd to the lord abbot of rommersdorff , by means of this short epistle . most reverend , famous and learned lord abbot , my most honoured favourer and friend , your reverend mr. prior , in the late absence of your lordship , sent me a sharp letter full of thundrings of eternal damnation against me and all those , who forsaking your church , embrace ours . truly i trembl'd at so rash a judgment of a prudent man. but in regard it is lawful at all times and in all places to repel force by force , to resist an unjust aggressor , and to answer modestly to one that proposes a hard question . nay , since it is our duty to convince gainsayers , tit. 1. 9. i could not think it a piece of injustice to oppose the foresaid mr. prior , with the treatise annex'd , that he may be certainly assur'd , that he has judg'd of our differences , as a blind man doth of colours , or as the shoemaker did of the picture drawn by apelles . all that i beg of your reverend worship is this , that you will be pleas'd so to order the matter , that this necessary answer may be deliver'd to his hands ; by which he may understand , that it is the part of a fool , to triumph before the victory ; and of one that is far from a christian , to judge so prepost'rously of the salvation of his neighbor . i had answer'd sooner , had i not bin hinder'd by my public duties , and transcribing a copy of this original writing , which i intend shall shortly wear a german cloak , to the end that all people may understand it . farewel , and continue your favour to , the most faithful observer of your lordship in all good offices , j. h. dalhusius . in the mean time , the lord abbot having intelligence of my design , that he might remove the impending burd'n from his prior , the strength of whose shoulders he did not well understand , was at first unwilling to receive this answer of mine , till tyr'd with the importunity of the messenger , he took it and retir'd into the next room : where he did not keep it long , but by his servant sent it me back the same day , with these words upon the outside paper ; by reason of strangers that are with me , and other necessary occasions , i have not leisure to answer the enclosed as it ought to be ; be pleased therefore to receive back again what you have thought good to write , but what is not convenient for us to read . so may the reverend inspector live to the years of nestor . your brother , charles , abbot of rommersdorff . but the lord abbot was not so fearful to keep the answer , as an abbot of the same order , of the neighbouring abbey of seinen , gulichius , was daring to accept it with a cheerful mind , and willing hand , after i had address'd him in the following short oration , writing after this manner : most reverend , most famous , and most learned lord abbot , my most esteemed favourer and friend . toward the beginning of the year , i found my self involv'd in new contentions , of which the author and beginning is the worshipful prior in rommersdorff , whose name is john casper baldem , who in answer to a writing , which ought to have bin instead of a pleasing new-years-gift , gave me to understand , that my self more especially , and all those whom you unjustly call vncatholic , are unavoidably subjected to eternal damnation . it was but just therefore that i should answer him , according to the matter which such a rash judgment requir'd . presently i did that which is just ; and this day took care that the original writing , at my urgent request , might be deliver'd to the prior himself by the lord prelate charles wirtzius , in hopes the lord abbot , as my singular friend , would have bin so favourable and sincere , as to have deliver'd him the original copy which i sent . but right reverend abbot , seeing the consideration of your most exquisite learning , and the justice of your friendship contracted four years since , may seem to demand so much , that i should inform you , at least by a copy , of your business in some measure importing the honour of your order ; and that you should not remain ignorant , according to the greek proverb in homer , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , what good or ill is done within our houses , i thought it necessary to impart to you the nature of our quarrel . in the mean time , by the love of jesus christ i conjure you , that laying aside inveterate prejudices , you would peruse this present treatise ; and afterwards with an answer first to be communicated to the brothers in rommersdorff , to oblige the longing expectations of him , who am , was , and will be to the end of my life , heddesdorff , jan. 14. 1681. the sincere observer of your worship , in all good offices , here we stopt , most worthy reader , proceeding no farther ; for the reverend abbot of seinen , gulichius , has hitherto left me nothing but the desire of a future answer . but to the end the church of the protestants , so often , nay daily , after the manner of baldem , in the desks and pulpits of the monks , abandon'd to the infernal devils , may be furnish'd with farther arms against such a customary damnation ; and that the innocence and eternal salvation of it may be more and more asserted and established with triumphant arguments and reasons , we thought it worth our while to publish this orthodox answer , wrested and extorted from us by the force of a fire-breathing quill , and drawn out of the dark shades of my study . i will not here meddle with any man , besides the prior my antagonist , who because he has spoken what he pleas'd , shall hear perhaps what he will not like so well . i shall only speak of errors , i shall spare persons , and , which is the chiefest thing of all , i shall examin and correct all things by the rule of christian charity , and invincible truth . in the mean time , reader , make use of this necessary answer , to the advancement of god's glory , the establishment of thy own faih , and the encrease of the true catholic church . may it please the god of peace to heal these divisions , that so christians being recal'd to truth and charity , may once more constitute one sheepfold under one shepherd christ , not antichrist . amen . to the right reverend the bishops , the reverend and learned pastors , and , to all and singular the members of the reformed english church ; the author wishes the grace of our lord jesus christ , the love of god the father , and the fellowship of the holy ghost . most honoured lords , and dearly beloved brethren in christ , in like manner as the jews of old , when they past their little children through the fire in honour of moloch , that they might not be mov'd with their pitiful outcries and lamentations , endeavour'd to deafen and silence those doleful and ruthful moans and shrieks of the distressed infants with variety of sounds and noises loud and shrill ; such are the labours of the followers of the church of rome , to leave no stone unturn'd , to stop the mouths of the detectors of their false doctrins : and in regard they are not able to compass their ends by the way of truth , they not only rage with fire and sword against the orthodox , but persecute them with clamour and judicial sentences ; and which is more , fill every corner of the world with their thundring writings , to prevent the voice of truth from being heard ; nay , which is more then all this , like ahab himself , they make it their business to throw the guilt of the troubles which themselves have rais'd , upon the faithful preachers of the truth ; and which is most horrible to hear , make it their glory to condemn them all to the punishment of infernal fires . the same ill fate has befall'n me . for when it was my late hap to officiate in the function of ecclesiastial overseer , in the county of weeden , upon the rhine , one of the popish prelates , a certain neighbour of mine , was not asham'd , instead of a new-years-gift , to send me word , that not only my self , but also all the protestants in general were eternally damn'd , and to be infallibly burn'd in the everlasting fire of hell. but in regard that by the testimony of the apostle , we can do nothing against the truth , but for the truth ; and that it is the chief duty of a preacher of the gospel , to hold fast the faithful word which is according to doctrin , that he may be able both to exhort in wholsom doctrin , and to convince them that say against it ; i thought it my duty , not only to translate into the german language the catechism of controversies , written by monsieur moulin , and by that means to arm my auditors against the daily attacques of the monks ; but also to refel such an inconsiderate and unchristianlike letter , and by this my answer to vindicate the salvation of the protestants against so horrible a condemnation . wherein i have chiefly made it my business to encounter my antagonist with the sword of his own brethren , as having brought in aid of our cause , the testimonies of the most famous popish doctors against him . not that i would have it so to be understood however , as if the suffrages of men that wander in the paths of error , were necessary for the support of our doctrin , but only that as vanquish'd enemies , following the triumphal chariot of truth , their necks laden with chains , and compell'd to submit to the victress , they might give all the world an unquestionable testimony of her conquest ; or else , that if after the first rout , they should adventure to make a second attempt upon her , being by this stratagem set together by the ears one among another , and distracted in their minds , or at least in their sentences , they might by mutually wounding each other , destroy themselves ; thereby affording us this pleasing spectacle , as if the lord had set every man's sword upon his neighbor throughout the host ; and had so brought it to pass , that they should kill one another with the weapons which they had made themselves ; and that the heads of these new goliah's should be cut off with the swords which they had girt upon their own loyns . for thus we see that the papists in many things are like samson's foxes , having their tails in such a manner ty'd together to set on fire , that with their heads they draw two contrary ways ; or else like certain monsters , whose bodies are not united together till about the navil or the belly . but as fawning creates friends , and truth begets hatred ; so neither could i avoid the hatred and persecution of the papists . for their revenge transported them to that degree , that they sent several soldiers to apprehend me , and to have punish'd me with eternal captivity ; who because they could not overtake me flying away on horseback , discharg'd two pistols at me , to have kill'd me outright ; but in vain , while god in his mercy protected me . constrain'd therefore by these and other persecutions , and continual way-layings of my life , some weeks ago i threw my self into the bosom of your church , that under your protection i might live in more safety ; and so soon as opportunity should permit , that i might be ready to employ the utmost of my abilities and sedulity in your service . but in regard , that according to the proverb , there is no desire of that which is to men unknown , i thought it might be worth my while most devoutly and humbly to offer and dedicate this my answer to all and singular both shepherds and sheep , high and mean , ecclesiastics and laity , magistrates and subjects , as having no other means to excite and kindle in your hearts , when once made known to your christian pity , so much of generous goodness , as to receive me into the arms of your charity , and make me partaker of your labors . accept , i beseech ye therefore , most honourable patrons , with courteous mind and hand , this little treatise of mine ; and open to me the doors of your benevolence ; and what you would should be done to your selves in the same case , that do to me . be not weary in well doing , for in due season ye shall reap , if ye faint not . while we have therefore time , let us do good unto all men , especially unto them that be of the houshold of faith. in the mean time , our merciful god , who has begun a good work in you , will perform it until the day of jesus christ ; that being fill'd with the fruits of righteousness , ye may speak the word of god without fear , and continue in one spirit , and one soul , holding together in the defence of the faith of the gospel ; and in nothing fearing your adversaries , which is to them a token of perdition , but to you of salvation , and that of god. for to you it is given for christ , not only this , that ye believe in him , but also this , that ye suffer for his sake . having the same sight which ye saw in me , and now hear in me . my brethren , count it all joy , when ye fall in diverse temptations . for blessed is the man who endureth temptation , because that when he is try'd , he shall receive the crown of life , which the lord has promis'd to those that love him . may it please the same almighty god , that fighting a good fight , ye may hold faith and a good conscience , which some having put away , as concerning faith , have made shipwrack . so shall ye remain faithful unto death , and a crown of life shall be given unto you . so that when the time of your dissolution is at hand , you may gladly and truly say , we have fought a good fight , we have fulfilled our course , we have kept the faith. henceforth there is laid up for us a crown of righteousness , whicb the lord , the righteous judge , shall give at that day ; and not only to us , but to them that have lov'd his appearing . now unto the king everlasting , incorruptible , invisible ; to god only wise , be honour and glory for ever and ever , amen . so farewel , most honoured patrons , and benignly favour , your most humble servant and exile , j. h. dalhusius . the salvation of protestants asserted and defended , &c. the salvation of body and soul comes from one fountain of salvation , which is jesus christ , god blessed for ever , amen . reverend and most learned mr. prior , there has been an idle report spread up and down , that the reverend abbot of the monastry of seinen propos'd to me several things concerning the catholic religion , if not in writing , yet by word of mouth , which i either am or was not able to resolve . from which trifle of a report , those of your party have thought to gain a petty lawrel wreath ; and those of our side have been in a deep suspence , not knowing what was done , or what was to be done ; for that fame is as well an obstinate retainer of what is feign'd and bad , as a divulger of truth . i am not willing to believe that the prelate aforesaid is the father of this abortive birth , in regard that since a non-entity can have no accidents , he could never in the truth of the matter divulge , that he propounded any thing to me to be resolv'd , when assuredly i remember it no more then i do an act that never was done . this indeed is true , that about three years since , returning from the visitation of the church of grentzhausen , and going into the monastery in my road , at what time my fellow-brethren , mr. william simonis , and mr. arnold schnabel , the one pastor of the church of alsbach , the other of ruchroeten , both most vigilant and learned persons were with me , he read to us many and various manuscripts taken out of our doctors , and arguments against those authors , and highly vaunted them to be invincible ; but we three so well at that time defended the truth , that your party had no reason to boast of advantage . but now that the reverend prior not only extends his prayers for my health , but also heartily wishes and desires , that after i had adjur'd and forsaken my religion , i should consult the good of my soul , by returning to peter 's nett , which is the roman and only soul-saving church ; lest after i had finished this life , i should not only be deprived of eternal felicity , but with the rest of my doctors burn in the everlasting fire of hell ; truly as upon the sight of the first , i return him many thanks ; so in respect of the latter , i cannot forbear but that out of duty and conscience , and for the love of truth , i must answer as follows , that i may not be again reproach'd to have thrown away my buckler when the duel was offered me , which was infamous among the romans , or to have sought for safety by ignominious flight . and i sincerely and constantly adjure you , reverend prior , together with your companions , that with impartial minds , and laying aside all fore-conceived opinions , you would vouchsafe to read and weigh what shall be here written . therefore that i may hasten to the thing it self , the whole hinge of your epistle turns upon this , to persuade me that the romanists ( give me leave to call you so throughout this writing ) are only worthy and fit to obtain salvation : on the other side , that all the protestants are damn'd , nay , irrevocably consign'd to a sad eternity . is not this your thesis ? nay , most certainly it is . it will be my part therefore to prove and assert the salvation of the protestants , and to examin and correct your rash judgment by the rule of charity , with regard however to the civil friendship of both ; more especially of that which is between me and your most reverend and famous master , charles wertzius , whom i here name with honor. i wish he had bin at home ; for then you would not have presum'd to have dealt so disingeniously by me . but the proverb says , when the cat is gone abroad , the mice play . but to the purpose . there is nothing which the sacred scriptures more frequently recommend to us then charity . this is that sacred and perpetual fire , which it behoves us more religiously to keep burning , then that which formerly was intrusted with the vestals in rome , or with the priests in the temple of god. for charity ( saith st. paul ) is the bond of perfection , col. 3. 14. the end of the commandment , 1 tim. 1. 5. nay , the fulfilling of the whole law , rom. 13. 10. and if a comparison should be made between the three theological vertues , there is no question but the palm would be given to charity as the principal , 1 cor. 13. 13. faith represents the porch of the temple , in regard it holds forth to us the propitiation of our sins upon the altar of the cross . hope represents the holy place , as being that which shines out to us with the sevenfold lamp of evangelical promises , in certain expectation of eternal beatitude . but charity representing the holy of holies , and glittering on every side with pure gold , is only worthy to be the seat of the deity ; for as god is love , 1 job . 4. 16. so the empyrean seat , and the fiery throne of charity in our minds , have a mutual resemblance . now there may be numbred several duties of this christian charity , the queenof all vertues , as well toward god as toward our neighbor . toward god , there are two sorts of duties incumbent upon every man by the command of charity ; of which some are positive , others negative . by the one a christian is oblig'd to exercise benevolence and bounty toward his neighbor , as much as in him lyes , affectionately and effectually in word and deed. by the other he is deterr'd from all manner of ill-will , and doing injury to his brother , not only directly by hurting him , but also indirectly by throwing scandals upon him ; not only openly and outwardly with hand or tongue , but also covertly and inwardly , by bearing malice , envy , hatred , or by unjust suspicions and rash censures , as st. paul witnesses , 1 cor. 13. 5. for charity thinks no evil , suffers all things , believes all things , hopes all things , endures all things . more particularly the scripture , in more places then one , condemns rash judgments , by which men , for the most part violating the laws either of divine truth or christian charity , judge evilly of the actions or persons of their brethren . to which purpose that sentence of our savior is express and positive , mat. 7. 1. judge not , lest ye be judged . such were the judgments of the pharisees formerly concerning others ; so that they lookt upon all others beside themselves as ideots , prophane and polluted sinners . and at this day , there is nothing more frequent among men , then these unjust censures , who are often wont to receive with the left-hand , what is reach'd forth with the right ; and to interpret all things in the worst sense , according to the variety of their passions . for example ; if any man grows rich through the blessing of god , he is adjudg'd to have acquir'd those riches by evil means : if he fall suddenly into extreme calamity , this is presently deem'd to befal him by the secret judgment of god revenging his secret transgressions : if any one be averse to superstition , he is accounted profane : if he professes piety , he is said to be an hypocrite : if liberal , he is taxed for a prodigal : if frugal , he must be covetous : if prudent , he is a coward : if magnanimous and sedate in the midst of the raging waves , he is pronounced rash and bold . such is that judgment of yours , most learned mr. prior , which you give in your letters of me and all the protestants , rather with a blind fury , then a quick understanding : that is to say , that we are all damn'd to eternity ; and that unless we return to peter's ship , by submitting our selves to the pope , we are adjudg'd in this life to the torments of hell. you are not the only person who lye under this mistake , for there are not wanting among ye those that in their harangues to the people , in affrighting terms do pawn their own salvation upon it , that all the protestants are damn'd . by vertue of which precipitate condemnation , the hatred of many is kindled against us ; for it is a difficult matter to love those whom they believe to be so hated of god , that they are already destin'd to the flames of hell : and in regard there is but little difference between a damn'd person and the devil , it is but rational that they should abhor such persons as the devil , who by an anticipated sentence are already numbred among the damn'd . nay , those of your party , who either out of duty or inclination are better and more tenderly affected towards us , are wont to look upon us with horror and a kind of commiseration , saying , that they are very sorry that men of such excellent endowments , and otherwise born to vertue , should be out of the way of salvation , and willingly throw themselves headlong into hell. for these reasons therefore i thought it necessary to examin by the rule of charity and truth this judgment so frequently given and inculcated against us ; to the end that if it be found to be rash and prohibited by the sentence of christ , not only you , mr. prior , may be brought to remit somewhat of your rigor , and blush at what you have so unjustly written , but that we our selves also slighting and contemning this preposterous judgment , may continue cheerful and constant in the truth of god , saying to our prior , and such like supercilious censurers as he , what st. paul said to the corinthians , 1 cor. 4. 3. with us it is a very small thing that we should be judged of you , or of mans judgment . it is better to be condemn'd by a physitian , then a judge ; by men , then by god. wherefore as no man can be a judge in his own cause , it is not for the accuser to pass sentence upon the guilty : so that it might be sufficient to plead in opposition to this unjust judgment , that mr. prior would sit judge in his own proper cause ; and that being carried away with various affections , he never regarded what was true and honest , but what was profitable and convenient . this judgment certainly is not to be imputed to equity and pure reason , but to anger and hatred . as parents are wont to love their children tho' maim'd and lame , so your doctors are so preposterously devoted to their own pre-conceived opinions , that they hate all men who go about to impugn or correct them ; and that so much the more , by how much the greater force they find in the same opinions to establish their authority in the world , and to encrease and preserve their earthly riches . the condition of the protestants in this respect , resembles the condition of our savior , while he was upon the earth . for because he oppos'd himself against the corruptions both of manners and doctrin which abounded in the church , and propounded a sort of justice quite different from the pharisaical pride , and rejecting unwritten traditions , labour'd to cleanse the house of god , and restore all things to the primitive fountains of purity and truth ; therefore he was accounted a samaritan , and proclaim'd a seditious person , a demoniac , a blasphemer , turbulent , and an innovator . the same things befal the reformed ; for therefore are they unjustly condemn'd , because they desire that the temple may be cleans'd , that abuses and corruptions may be reform'd , which time , ambition , avarice , negligence , ignorance , and other pests have brought into the church ; that the justice of our savior may be fully acknowledg'd ; that unprofitable , intolerable and superstitious traditions may be cut off , and all things , as much as may be , restor'd to the primitive state of the church , and the exemplar and pattern of purest antiquity . and indeed if you would but lay aside your affections , and give never so little attention to the word of god , you would there find how unlawful 't is for you to give any such judgment upon christians , and to devote them to maledictions whom christ has redeemed with his blood , whose faith is conformable to the scripture , and who repose their whole confidence in the grace and mercy of god , and the merits and cross of christ . certainly the point of eternal salvation is of a higher nature then to be wrested away by little blind miserable animals to their tribunal ; or that any man should presume to pronounce any thing concerning it , beyond the revealed will of god. for god has assum'd it to himself , his sentence is to be expected , and not to be anticipated by our judgment , for what mortal was ever privy to his secrets , or whom did he ever permit the perusal of the book of life , and the catalogue of election ? st. james , c. 4. of his epistle , v. 11 , 12. positively admonishes us , to condemn that law which condemns his brother , and that he who judges of the law , is not a doer of the law , but a judge . and that men for this reason should not invade the laws of god , he adds , there is one lawgiver , who is able both to save and to destroy ; who art thou shat judgest another ? excellent also was the saying of the ethnic poet ; those things which it concerns us not to know , let us not take care to believe ; let secret things be left to god. many are number'd among wolves in this world , whom christ will joyn to his sheep at the last judgment . many who are weigh'd in the ballance of human censure , are rejected as brass , which the touch-stone of divine judgment will demonstrate to have bin fine gold. first therefore i would fain know of you , mr. prior , upon what ground you come to be more certain of the damnation of others , then of your own salvation . for if it be a piece of arrogance as you commonly teach against us , for any man to assure himself that he is the son of god , and heir of heaven , certainly it must be a great piece of rashness to determin as to others , that they are the sons of wrath and hell. i rather am of opinion , that the religion of the protestants is so far from being an obstacle to salvation , that it rather serves in a high measure to promote salvation . i confess , there is no hope of salvation beyond the pale of christian religion ; so that salvation cannot be obtained in the communion of ethnics , mahometans and jews ; no , not in the society of those who retaining the name of christ , nevertheless subvert the foundation of salvation , such as formerly were the ebionites , borborites , manichaeans , arrians , and at this day the socinians ; or if there be or were any other such like monsters in religion . but in our religion , what is there to be discover'd that subverts the fundamental articles of christianity , but rather , on the other side , what serves in a high degree to support them ? does it not admit the scriptures of the old and new testament to be of divine inspiration , and the three more solemn creeds , the apostolic , athanasian and nicene , together with the four oeconomic councils of nicaea , chalcedon , ephesus and constantinople ? does it not adore in truth one god , three in one , the father , son and holy ghost ? does it not acknowledg one christ , god and man , for the mediator between god and men , the redeemer of souls , a prophet , priest , and king of the church ? does it teach any thing concerning god , which is repugnant to his majesty , his glory , and his power ? can it be accused of any opinion that subverts good manners , or that sins against the law of god or public honesty ? the aim of religion is to inform men how to live well and bear death with confidence , to the end that after they have lived in the fear of god , they may die in his favour . and this is that which a christian may easily attain in our religion ; for it most powerfully excites a faithful man to fear god and love his neighbor . it propounds no article of faith from whence various corollaries may not be deduc'd for performance of our duties , and reformation of our lives ; and administers most sweet and those most effectnal consolations to a christian against the assaults of all temptations , and death particularly ; advancing the certainty of redemption , through christ , into the number of the sons of god , by his merit and favour ; so that they themselves , who deal so rigorously by us , so often as any one is to be prepar'd for death , insensibly come over to our side , and tacitly renounce their own opinions , as is to be seen in conson . agoniz . written by viguerrus . for then they do not comsort the dying person with heaps of his own proper merits , but exhort him to put all his hope and confidence in the mercy of god , and the satisfaction of christ . nor do they scare their doubtful consciences with the terror of purgatory , but comfort it with the hopes of soon obtaining everlasting rest ; and admonish the sick person often to repeat the words of david , into thy hands i commend my spirit . the bishop of toledo is reported to have written to the pope , that the emperor charles v , declar'd upon his death-bed , that he plac'd all the hopes of his salvation in one redeemer and saviour jesus christ , and in his merits , adding withal , that he look'd upon luther's opinion concerning justification , to be very true . to which , as the famous john crocius , my tutor formerly at marpurgh , reports in his anti-wigelius , p. 451. they make the pope to return this answer ; that he would not celebrate his funeral obsequies , because he held with luther in such a principal point of religion . maximilian ii , when the bishop of naples d. lambert gruterus came to him , then lying under the pangs of death , would not suffer him to be admitted , but upon promise first , that he would talk of nothing else , but of the merits of christ , his blood and s●eat ; the bishop was as good as his word , and made a long oration concerning the merits of christ full of consolation ; and when the emperor was ask'd , whether he intended to die in that faith ? he made answer , i shall do no otherwise : as crato relates in his funeral-oration ; and chytraeus chron. sax. the head and summ of christian religion , is christ crucify'd , 1 cor. 2. 2. other foundation can no man lay then that which is laid , which is jesus christ , 1 cor. 3. 11. so that for the obtaining of salvation , there is no other rule of faith to be acknowledg'd then the word of christ resounding in scriptures ; nor any other merit to be pleaded before god , but his death ; nor any other purgatory but his blood ; nor any other propitiatory sacrifice for our sins , but that which he offer'd once upon the cross ; nor any other head of the church , nor any other mediator with god , but himself . behold the foundations of our faith : why should you deny us eternal salvation ? moreover it would be very cruel , and altogether repugnant to christians , to condemn to the torments of hell so many myriads of christians , living in the east , under the patriarchs of antioch , alexandria , jerusalem and constantinople ; the georgians , armenians , abissines , egyptians , greeks , whose churches the apostles founded , martyrs water'd with their blood , the most learned of the fathers cultivated with their instructions , so many councils honour'd with their decisions , and which are able to vye their titles of antiquity and succession with rome it self . now if the way to salvation is not to be deny'd to these christians dispers'd over the east , and retaining the foundations of christianity , tho' believing nothing of the fire of purgatory , the pomp of papal dignity , transubstantiation of the bread into the body of christ , communion under one kind , the use of latin or a foreign tongue in publick worship , the necessary celibacy of the ministry , auricular confession , and the like ; why may not salvation be obtain'd in the society of the reformed churches , which are gather'd to christ in the west , tho as to those points they have renounc'd the roman communion ? then there is another thing which you romanists confess of your own accords , that our church reform'd according to the word of god ; leads all the members of its communion directly to christ ; that they may obtain salvation in him and by him ; that they feed the starving consciences with the spiritual bread of the divine word , and sacramental eucharist , call sinners to repentance , and recommend to every one piety towards god , and charity towards our neighbor . there is also another thing which they acknowledge , that our reformed church both has and administers the true baptism of christ , and by means of that , spiritually begets sinners which are to be heirs of the kingdom of heaven ; seeing that by their own confession , our children dying after baptism receiv'd in our churches , ascend to joys celestial , as may be collected from bellarmin , lib. 1. de bapt. cap. 11. in the mean time , i beseech you , venerable sir , can you tell me what motives they were that lead you headlong into so absurd a precipice ? or what , i beseech you , were the impulsive causes and pregnant reasons of so preposterous and unseasonable a damning of our souls ? if you are ignorant , as i shrewdly conjecture you are , i will tell you what they are from your own doctors , who have written variously concerning this question , that is to say , that we are therefore to be damn'd , and are damn'd to all eternity . first , because we are guilty of blasphemy against the omnipotency of god , in the business of the eucharist . secondly , because we make god the author of sin. thirdly , because we fasten despair upon christ , when he was upon the cross . fourthly , because we are injurious to the virgin mary and the saints . fifthly , because we oppose chastity , sobriety , mortification , good works , the sacrament of the lord's supper , and every pious institution . and sixthly , because we are heretics , or at least , seventhly , schismatics . these are the imputations which i find in bellarmin , becanus , tirinus and stapleton , all jesuites , the great props of your cause , and the pillars of this cruel sentence . nevertheless know , mr. prior , that these accusations are no more then mere imaginations , and feigned dreams , which have no real foundation ; as i shall with all possible brevity demonstrate in order , both for your own and the sake of others ; and if these pretences of yours be found to be groundless and unreasonable , there needs no more to convince you of your error , and your stragling from truth and charity . first therefore we are accused , as if we would limit divine omnipotence ; and that we plainly deny it , while we assert , that it is impossible for the bread to be transubstantiated into the body , or that any body should be actually in divers places ; or that accidents should subsist without a subject ; or that there should be some bodies allow'd of that fill no space . but far be it from us to limit the infinite pôwer of the most infinite , or in the least to call it in question . we are ready with our blood to subscribe to the apostles creed , in the first article whereof we profess to believe in god the father almighty , maker of heaven and earth . and this we generally add for a conclusion to our ordinary prayers ; for thine is the kingdom , the power and the glory , for ever and ever , mat. 6. 13. then also our saviour taught us , that those things are easie and possible with god , which seem to men impossible . let him be anathema , that calls in question the power os the most high ; who existing of himself , because , according to the common axiom , there is nothing in god which is not god ; it is impossible for him to be limited or bounded . and this infinity we could as certainly believe in the sacrament of the eucharist , in reference to the destruction of the bread , and substituting the body of christ in the room of it , as it is certain and perspicuous from the word of god , that our bodies should rise at the day of judgment ; our faith would be directed by the cynosure of divine will ; nor can we doubt but that god both could and would have done it , had he so decreed the thing to be done , as profitable and necessary for our salvation . but as to this , we find , first , that those sacred mysteries which are distributed to us from the table of the lord , are and remain both in substance and name what they were , as to the substance , before the consecration . nor need we to produce the testimony of senses for it ; our seeing , tasting , feeling , smelling , which according to the opinion of certain philosophers , are rarely deceiv'd about their proper objects ; the authority of st. paul is sufficient , and beyond all objection ; 1 cor. 10. 16. the cup of blessing which we bless , is it not the communion of the blood of christ ? the bread which we break , is it not the communion of the body of christ ? and then again , 1 cor. 11. 28. let a man examin himself , and so let him eat of this bread , and drink of this cup. secondly , we find that the eating of his flesh , and the drinking his blood , is recommended to us by christ , joh. 6. but there , there is nothing spoken of oral feeding , by which the body of christ is actually swallowed into our bodies ; but he speaks of spiritual and mystic eating , by which he remains in us , and we in him ; which does not come to pass by chewing , but by believing ; not in swallowing down into the stomach , but by receiving him with the heart & with faith , as christ in the same place clearly and frequently explains himself ; as when he says , ver . 35. he that cometh to me , shall never hunger , and he that believeth on me , shall never thirst . and thus all antiquity has expounded this context of st. john. and several testimonies might be produc'd of st. austin alone , among all the rest of the fathers , to the same purpose ; whose following words were taken out of his commentaries upon st. john by gratian. distinct . 2. consil . can. 47. why dost thou make ready thy teeth and belly ? believe , and thou hast eaten : for to believe in him , is the same as to eat the living bread ; who believes in him , eats him , is invisibly fed , because he invisibly grows again . now that we ought to understand the words of christ in this place of mystical and spiritual feeding , the constant rule propos'd by the same father , constrains us , l. 3. de doctrin . christ . c. 16. if the scripture ( saith he ) seems to command an unlawful and wicked act , and to forbid a profitable and good deed , then it is figurative . vnless you eat the flesh of the son of man , and drink his blood , you shall not have life within you . here it seems to command a wicked act. therefore it is a figure , commanding it s to communicate the passion of our saviour , and to remember profitably and sweetly that his flesh was crucified and wounded for our sakes . but i abstain for the nonce from farther explication of this matter , unless occasion shall be given of vindicating this epistle by a reply . in the mean time , the sole omnipotency of god is usually oppos'd to so many effectual arguments , by which we are constrained to assent to the opinion of the antients concerning the sacrament , as if god were bound to display his power to do whatever men fancy to themselves ; or that we must be said to blaspheme his omnipotence , because we do not consent to their dreams and miracles ; whereas if those new and unprofitable opinions were approv'd by the assent of the divine will , we should never meddle to contradict this argument taken from god's omnipotency . but since there is nothing that can be produc'd in their favour out of the testament of god ; but on the contrary , so many demonstrations fighting against them , we dare pesume to descend to the examination of this argument ; not to limit the omnipotence of god , but to shew that those things that you romanists would defend by virtue of that , are of the number of those things which fall not under the power of god , not through impotency or want of strength , but through the excellency and perfection of his power . for tho' god be omnipotent , yet he can neither walk , nor sleep , nor die ; for that these things would contradict the perfection of his eslence . in this sense , the scripture testifies that god cannot lye , nor deny himself . hence it comes to pass , that tho' the divine power extends it self to infinity , yet is it agreed among all christians , that god cannot do those things which imply contradiction , because he cannot lye nor deny himself . to this truth your bellarmin gives his assent , lib. 3. de euch. and all your doctors subscribe to his opinion . and upon this ground we dispute with you , alledging , i. that it is impossible that accidents should exist without any subject ; in regard it is essential to all accidents to inhere in their subjects . insomuch , that by virtue of that inherence it is , that an accident is distinguish'd from substance . nor can any accident be fancy'd without some subject to which it may adhere , and by which it may be supported ; but that some such accident must be fancy'd which is no longer an accident , which implies a contradiction . ii. it is impossible that the body of christ sholud be in infinite places remotely distant one from another , in earth , tho' he do not descend from heaven , whether nevertheless he ascended after his resurrection ; as it could not then have bin that he should have bin in heaven , unless he had locally and visibly ascended thither from the earth . iii. it cannot be that any body should be any where actually and properly , but that it must be in the same place corporeally and locally ; because the manner of being somewhere , must correspond with the manner of being simply , which is the proper manner of the thing in dispute : and as a spirit cannot be any where actually present , unless definitely and spiritually ; so neither can a body be any where actually present , but corporeally and circumscrib'dly ; for if it were actually in any place where it were not corporeally , then it would cease to be a body . iv. it cannot be that the body of christ should at the same moment of time , be visible , palpable and circumscrib'd in heaven , and in infinite places of the earth , after another manner invisible , impalpable , uncircumscrib'd , without extension , and latent under a point . v. it is impossible that any singular or individual thing should be multiply'd in infinite places , and yet the singularity and individuality remain entire , without having its unity destroy'd by that multiplication . vi. it is impossible that the thing contain'd , should be greater then the thing containing : and that the body of christ should lye hid under a small morsel of bread , or be streightned within the bowels of a mouse , in the same stature as he had when he was upon the cross . these and such like miracles as these , all sprouting out of the opinion of transubstantiation , we oppose as impossibilities ; not that god wants power , but because these things imply a contradiction . and therefore we cannot be accused of any blasphemy against divine omnipotency . about three hundred years ago flourish'd durandus . de sancto portiano , bishop of meaux , of the dominican order , of great repute among the scholastics , and one that rome never yet declar'd a heretic . he affirms contradictory penetration of dimensions to be impossible , by means of which two bodies shall be able to possess one and the same place ; and argues against whatever has bin produc'd to the contrary , tho' taken from the nativity of christ , his ent●ance among the disciples , the doors being shut , and his ascent into heaven ; affirming , that it is much more just and rational to say , that the creature gave way to the creator ; so that the heavens if they were solid , parted asunder , to give free passage to their lord ; and that the doors of the house where the disciples met , miraculously open'd before him , that so he might more easily come to them ; and that the womb of the virgin was divinely dilated to facilitate his nativity ; then that they should oblige the creator to penetrate other bodies , and so to receive a law from their nature , rather then to give it them. all which expositions of durandus may be defended and maintain'd out of the word of god , psal . 14. 7 , 9. the gates of heaven are commanded to lift up their heads , that is , to fly open to christ ready to ascend into heaven , then under the name of the king of glory entring in . joh. 20. 26. it is not said that christ came to his disciples through the doors shut , but at what time the doors were shut , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . now suppose they might be open'd to him by the ministry of angels , , as the prison-doors flew open to peter , act. 12. 10. and as mat. 28. 2. the angel descended from heaven which remov'd the stone laid upon the sepulchre . luke 2. 23. relates , that the blessed virgin brought her offering to jerusalem , and that there christ stood before the lord ; as it is written in the law of the lord , that every male opening the womb , shall be called holy to the lord. by which law the holy virgin had not bin oblig'd , unless christ at his birth had open'd her womb : neither is it any obstacle to her perpetual virginity , in regard she never knew man ; and for that this gate through which the lord of hosts past , according to the saying of ezekiel , c. 44. 2. remain'd from that time always constantly shut . now if the crime of blasphemy were never imputed to durandus , nor any of his followers , for these seeming attacks upon divine omnipotency , why are we reproach'd as enemies of the same omnipotency , for only averring the same things ? thomas aquinas , listed among the number of the saints , vulgarly call'd the angelical doctor , and to whom they feign that the statue of a crucifix should speak these words at naples ; thou hast written well concerning me , what reward dos̄t thou expect ? this aquinas , part 3. quest . 76. almost quite through the whole question , affirms it impossible and contradictory for the same body to be locally and circumscrib'dly in two several places ; and alledges , that the glorious body it self of our saviour , cannot be locally , visibly and circumscrib'dly but in one only place ; that in this manner now he is not in any other place then in heaven ; that he never is moveable and visible in the eucharist , or after any other manner then only sacramentally . and whereas it has bin said , that he has bin seen in this most august sacrament , under the form of a boy , or of flesh , or of blood ; that it was neither the body nor the substance of christ . now if thomas could not persuade himself , that it was possible for the body of christ to be locally in two different places , with whom vasques the jesuite , and all the rest at this time agree ; and which is more , if he did not believe that that which was sometimes said to be seen in the eucharist , was the body and substance of christ , or prov'd the local presence of his body in the sacrament ; must we be call'd blasphemers who are of the same belief , and consequently assert , that the same body cannot be actually present in two different places , in regard the actual presence of any body of necessity must be corporeal , local and circumscrib'd ? 't is true , i acknowledg a certain sacramental presence in the eucharist , but different from that which thomas has invented ; not physical and real , but moral and significative , which is agreeable to the being and nature of the sacrament ; as also super-physical and real through faith , in vertue and operation ; which does not require a physical and real presence in the substance either of the person or of the thing , joh. 8. 56. 1 cor. 10. 3 , 4. as we are undeservedly accus'd of blasphemy against the omnipotency , so are the accusations that follow meer calumnies invented to inflame a hatred against us ; yet the main pillars to support the most learned mr. prior's damnation of our souls . it is a capital crime this , and highly deserving to be immediately rank'd next to the former . for in the next place you assert , mr. prior , that we teach , that god is the author of sin ; whence you infer that the devil is our god , and that the reformed go about to recal from orcus the long since buried heresies of the florinians and manichaeans . nay , the calumny was carried so high , that becanus the jesuite , in his manual controv. propounds this question ; whether god be the author of sin ? as one of those which are controverted at this day between you and us. and tho' we deny'd it , and complain'd of the injury done us , wishing anathema's to all that teach , that god is the author of sin , yet the imputation continues , and our adversaries would fain persuade us that we believe otherwise then really we do . as mercurie in plautus would have persuaded sosias that he was not the same person he took himself to be . however , do but turn over the confessions of faith , the forms of consent , the public catechisms of our church , and try whether you can find in them any thing that ●avours in the least of that impiety . come to our holy assemblies , vouchsafe to hear our sermons , and try whether you can find any such thing there ; nay , whether we do not openly and professedly teach the contrary , as often as occasion offers . so far are our churches from this blasphemy , that they expresly and in formal terms reject this proposition , that god is the author of sin , confess . gal. art. 8. & belg. art. 13. they who lay this to our charge , acknowledg that it is affirm'd by none of us ; only by certain consequences they would wire-draw it from some sentences of our doctors ; acknowledging nevertheless , that zuinglius , martyr , calvin and beza , whom you have charged as guilty of this crime , expresly and in formal terms have condemn'd that impious axiom in their writings ; and whose testimonies also your doctors produce , as is to be seen in bellarmin de amiss . grat . l. 2. c. 2. and in becanus after him , l. 3. manual . cont. l. 3. c. 5. quaest 6. § . 4. nay , calvin himself , against whom nevertheless you have the greatest peek , is acknowledg'd by your doctors , to have most effectually confuted the same impiety against the libertines that upheld it . truly since the romanists at this day will not allow that to be an axiom of faith , which is not to be found literally in scripture , but is only deduc'd from a certain kind of consequence , that which is not cannot be , that they should justly attribute to some of ours this assertion , that god is the author of sin ; because it seems to be consequentially deduc'd from some of their sayings , seeing it is not only any where expresly extant in any of their writings , but is also expresly in plain words refuted and rejected by the same authors . so that if every one ought to be the interpreter of his own words , we are rather to believe our own authors as to their sense , then their adversaries ; who do not condemn them for what they have said , but with envious eyes industriously search and prie into their writings to find out flaws and pretences of rejecting and condemning them . ours therefore are desirous to maintain that all the works of god were known to him from eternity , act. 15. 18. that nothing lyes conceal'd from him , and that nothing happens in the world without some secret dispen sation of his . that he is not what epicurus dream'd him to be , a slothful spectator of those things which are transacted in the world ; but that his eternal providence sits at the helm , and that he steers and governs the ship as he pleases himself . in him we have our being , live and move , as st. paul teaches us , act. 17. 28. also that our sins and transgressions of his law are subjected to the government of his most secret counsels ; as poysons may be wholsomly and profitably administred by a prudent physitian ; and as the sun-beams diffuse themselves over mud , and penetrate rotten carkasses , without being defiled . that god often punishes sins by sins ; and that not only the hearts of kings are in his hands , as solomon tells us , prov. 21. 1. but universally of all mankind , like a stream of waters , so that he may incline them which way he pleases . lastly , after a wonderful and most ineffable manner , as st. austin speaks , enchirid. c. 120. that what is done contrary to his will , is not always done without his will ; because it could not be done , if he did not permit it ; neither does he permit against his will , but voluntarily . as he is good , he would not permit evils to be done ; unless as he is omnipotent , he could bring good out of evil. now tho' some of ours , desirous to explain themselves concerning these most constant and perpetual truths , have made use of some expressions somewhat harsh , they are not therefore presently to be condemn'd ; much less are others to fasten upon them whatever may be squeez'd from their sayings by certain violent and malitious consequences . but what sayings of our divines will you romanists produce , to give credit to your calumnies , the like to which i will not shew you in scripture ? joseph , gen 20. 50. said to his brethren , that the same evil which they had contriv'd against him , god had contriv'd for the best , to the preservation of a mighty people ; that is to say , divine providence concurring with their theft , and making use of it to a wholsom end . the lord himself testifies , exod. 10. 1. that he exasperated and harden'd the heart of pharaoh and his servants , tho' moses had wrought all his miracles in the midst of them . by nathan , 2 sam. 12. 11 , 12. he declar'd to david , that he would stir up evil against him out of his own house , and that he would cause his wives to be ravished before his face , and deliver them to his servants , who should lye with them in the open sun ; adding also these words , thou didst this secretly , but i will do this thing before all israel , and before the sun. such like expressions are to be met with , isai . 6. 10. and 63. 17. act. 4. 27. rom. 1. 24. and would i be prolix , i could demonstrate , that there has been nothing said by ours in this matter , but that much harsher has fallen from the pens of the most learned men in your church ; nay , what whole societies maintain at this day in the very bosom of it . let one serve for all ; that is to say bellarmin , who , l. 2. de amiss . grat. c. 13. thus goes on ; god does not only permit the wicked to commit many evils , neither does he only forsake the godly , that they may be constrain'd to suffer what ever injuries the wicked shall offer them ; but also he presides over those evil and malicious wills , rules and governs them , twists and bends them by working in them invisibly ; so that altho' they be evil out of their own vitious inclinations , yet they are dispos'd by divine providence more to one sort of mischief then another . iii. as it cannot be without extreme injury said of us , that we make god the author of sin ; so it is no less maliciously fixed upon us , in your church , to the end you may have a pretence the more freely to condemn us , that we maintain , that christ despair'd upon the cross , and that the grievous torments which he felt in his body , would have little availd , unless he had also suffer'd in his soul the pangs and torments of the damn'd . but look upon the tenth section of the gallican catechism , where the contrary is expresly asserted ; that is to say , that christ still hop'd in god in the midst of all his agonies , even then when he cry'd out in the depth of all his woes , my god , my god , why hast thou forsaken me ? as i● his father had bin in wrath with him , and had deserted him . it behov'd christ , to the end he might free the souls together with the bodies , to suffer the punishment of our sins , as well in his soul as in his body . the most learned among you in this point , are of the same opinion with us . cardinal cusanus , exercit. spirit . l. 10. ex serm. qui per spiritum , has utter'd those things upon this subject , without any censure of your church , which would have been adjug'd blasphemous and impious in the reformed , had they dropt from their pens . the passion of christ ( says he ) then which none could be greater , was like that of the damn'd , that cannot be more damn'd ; that is to say , even to the torments of hell. in his behalf says the prophet david , the pains of hell compass'd me about , nevertheless thou hast brought my soul out of hell. but he is the only person who through such a death enter'd into that glory . that same pain of sense conformable to the pains of hell , he was certainly resolv'd to suffer , to the glory of god the father ; that he might shew , that he was to obey him to the extremity of punishment . for this is to glorisie god by all possible manner of means . and thus our justification comes solely from christ . for we sinners in him discharge the debt of infernal torments which we justly deserve , that so we may attain to the resurrection of life . suarez also , of the same order , in 3 thom. quaest . 52. art. 4. disput . 43. sect 1. relates out of medina , that some catholics believ'd , that christ suffer'd outwardly some pains of the damned in hell , yet not in the same manner as the damned suffer ; that is to say , against their wills , or with disorder and confusion , but out of extraordinary charity . what more have ever any of ours said , not to offend christ , but out of a desire to seek the fountain of sweetness in the bitterness of his woes ; the harvest of joy in his sadness , security of heart in his horrors , and the●eby to acknowledge his victory the more illustrious , by how much the combat was more terrible which he undertook ; and the triumph the more glorious , by how much the more dreadful the labors were that he sustain'd ? but from the pens of which of ours dropt any thing like that , which john ferus both taught and wrote upon this subject ? by birth a teutonic ( says sixtus senensis , a dominican biblioth . l. 4. ) of the order of minors , preacher in the chief church at mentz , a person highly learned in theology , endu'd with a singular eloquence , whose equal in the duty of evangelical preaching the catholic german churches at this time have not to shew , because he wrote in a more free and polite stile pious and learned meditations , according to the catholic doctrin . this man therefore upon mat. 27. discoursing of christ's exclamation upon the cross , has these expressions ; christ at this hour put off god , not by exposing himself , but by not feeling ; he set aside the father , that he might act the man. thus god the father now does not act the part of a father , but of a tyrant , tho' in the mean time he had a most tender affection for christ . and in another place ; christ , that he might set sinners free , put himself in the place of all sinners ; not stealing , nor committing adultery , nor murther , &c. but translating to himself the wages , punishment and deserts of sinners , which are cold , heat , hunger , thirst , dread of death , dread of hell , despair , death , and hell it self ; that he might overcome hunger by hunger , fear by fear , horror by horror , despair by despair , death by death , hell by hell , and in a word , satan by sitan . go then , reverend mr. prior , and bring me any reformed doctor that ever talk'd at this rate , which nevertheless in ferus the monk never any of your party censur'd for blasphemy . iv. these more grievous calumnies being thus wip'd off , the rest that remain behind are too slight for me to spend much time in refuting them . the most of your party cry out , that we deserve to be damn'd , because we are enemies to the blessed virgin and the saints , as also to mortification , &c. are we to be traduc'd as enemies to the blessed virgin , who understand that we cannot be so , but we must cease to be christians , who believe her now in heaven , enjoying celestial glory near her son ? who know that on earth she was the truly happy and blessed mother of our lord and savior ? are we to be accounted the saints enemies , who boast of their communion in our creed , and by the imitation of their examples , as much as in us lyes , labour up the same hill to the same reward ? but you will say , that we reformed do not adore the blessed virgin , nor the shrines of the saints , &c. i answer , that we abstain from that sort of worship , not out of hatred or contempt of the blessed virgin , but lest we should offend them , by paying to them that religious worship which is only due to god. the faithful in the old testament , never gave these honors to the prophets and patriarchs deceas'd , and yet they were never accounted their adversaries . for four hundred years together there was no such adoration us'd in the primitive church . and antiquity anathematiz'd the collyridians leaning that way , and saluting the holy virgin by the title of queen of heaven , as we find in epiphanius , haeres . 79. cont . collyrid . the body of mary was really holy , but no god. she was really a virgin , and an honourable virgin ; but not intended for our adoration , in regard that she ador'd him that was begot of her flesh . and moreover by the example of the angel refusing adoration and worship from john , he proves , that much less the virgin mary either desires or ought to be worship'd . but what he said particularly of the virgin , that did st. austin affirm at the same time concerning all the saints ; that is to say , that they are to be honour'd in respect of imitation , not to be worship'd in respect of religion ; l. de vera relig. c. ult . v. neither can they find any thing in us , that is repugnant to chastity , sobriety , mortification of the flesh , and study of good works . for to all these things we pastors frequently and seriously in our pulpits exhort our flocks . nor by the grace of god do we so live , that we should be thought to have proclaim'd open war to all vertue and godliness . for our not allowing that law of celibacy , so burthenson to the clergy , is no hatred of chastity , when celibacy it self is that which has turn'd away so many , and still hurries multitudes from the true paths of chastity . insomuch as pius ii , as platina relates in his life , was wont to say , that wedlock was deny'd the priests upon good grounds , but that for better reasons it ought to be restor'd them . we are not averse to sobriety and fasting , because we reject those superstitious observations ; upon the prescribing of which the same thing is said to us , as formerly they us'd to say , against whom the apostle writes , col. 2. 21. eat not , taste not , touch not ; and to which , upon the score of our consciences , we cannot submit . not that we are so addicted to luxurious lives , or so studious to indulge our appetites ; but because they put a bridle upon our consciences , contrary to the liberty purchas'd us in christ ; and constitute the essence of fasting , not in humbling the mind before god , and veneration of his deity ; but in the nice choice of some sorts of meats , and rejecting others ; and because they affirm , that by such bodily exercises , and such kind of diet , our sins may be expiated , and that men thereby merit eternal life . we do not hate the mortification of the old man , while we reject the publick whippings and affected macerations of those who had rather exercise cruelty upon nature , then correct the corruption of it , and who seem to bear a hatred to their own flesh , contrary to that of the apostle , eph. 5. 29. whereas they ought rather to submit the affections of their hearts to the will of god. for if it were so much a duty to chastize and enslave your outward and visible bodies , the baalites , brachmans , priests of the syrian goddess , the mahometan monks , and those whipsters which about two hundred years ago the roman church numbred in the list of heretics , have outdone and still outdo you in those rigorous exercises . but the body which thou art to subdue , is the body of sin ; and the members to be extirpated , are the vices of it , as the apostle says , col. 3. 5. mortifie your members which are upon earth ; fornication , vncleanness , inordinate affection , evil concupiscence , and covetousness , which is idolatry . lastly ; it is no hating of good works , to pronounce them necessary for salvation ; yet so , that they may but only be the way to the kingdom , and not the cause of reigning ; the cause of our salvation being solely ascrib'd to the mercy and grace of god in jesus christ , and by no means to our own merits , joyn'd with his , as if they could be assistant toward so great a benefit . but would to god , that setting aside these controversies about the use of good works , we could but give our minds both of us to practice them with a sincere charity ; then mr. prior would not be so highly exorbitant in his unchristianlike judgment concerning us . then again , how can any hatred of the most sacred eucharist be affixed upon the reformed , who urge nothing so much as the entire taking of it under both kinds , in conformity to the institution of christ ; and who believe concerning it , both what the scripture holds forth , and what the fathers of the ancient church deliver ? but it is no hatred of this most august sacrament , to refuse to kneel to it , and to pay the highest degree of veneration to it , as it is the custom in your roman church . we abstain from this adoration of the eucharist , lest we should pay to the creature , what is only owing to god. the sacraments are holy things , which are to be lookt upon with decency and reverence , but not to be ador'd . the brazen serpent among the israelites was a sacred thing , and as it were the permanent sacrament of our future redemption by the cross of christ ; but yet the israelites were idolaters , so soon as they began to adore it and worship it with frankincense . we do not read that the apostles worshipt this sacrament . christ indeed is to be ador'd in the use of this sacrament , as in every religious performance ; and in that sense it is true what st. austin says upon psa . 98. let no man eat his flesh , unless he have first ador'd ; which words , gloss . decret . in can. accesserunt & distinct . 2. of consecration , are interpreted of spiritual eating ; so that he thence infers an argument , that no mouse can receive the body of christ . but the sacrament it self cannot be the object of our adoration , nor can the presence of the body of christ in the sacrament be the ground of it . such is the miserable servitude of the soul to take signs and symbols for realities ; so that it cannot lift up the eye of the mind above the corporeal creature to receive eternal light , as st. austin says , lib. 3. de doctrin . christ . c. 5. without doubt antiquity never knew what adoration of the sacrament meant ; and as little known to them was that modern practice of carrying it about the streets , or of erecting to it , in the high-ways , altars hung about with tapestry , or of shewing it to the people at certain hours of the day , when the mass is not celebrated . at that time it was distributed to the people either sitting or standing , generally upon the lord's days , when it was chiefly administred ; as appears out of justin , apol. 2. but never kneeling ; because it was a crime among the primitive christians to kneel upon the lord's day , as all the learned agree . nor do the romanists deny but that there is some danger of idolatry in this adoration ; because that many things are requir'd in transubstantiation , which whether they are really so as they ought to be , is not evidently apparent to any man. therefore the famous biel , lect . 50. in can. letter o , proposes to himself this difficulty ; because an error may happen in consecration , by means of which the effect of the consecration is hindred ; as if the person that consecrates be no priest ; or because he errs in form , or because the due intention is wanting ; nor can he that stands by , be sure that a transubstantiation is made ; no nor the priest that celebrates ; because he is not absolutely certain whither he be a priest or no , in regard the intention of his ordainer is not positively known to him ; all which things consider'd , how can he that adores the sacrament , avoid the danger of idolatry ? for if he adores an unconsecrated host , which he thinks to be consecrated , he commits idolatry . nor does he propound any other remedy to escape this danger of idolatry , then a conditional adoration ; which whether it pleases your modern doctors or no , i know not . these are his words , litt. r. resp . secundum alex. part . 3. quaest . 30. memb . 3. art . 1. sect . 3. and after him bishop thomas , and st. bonaventure in 3. distinst . 9. that the host or eucharist upon the altar ought to be ador'd , upon condition , that all things requisite to the consecration , are so as they ought to be . since then the adoration of the sacrament is dubious and dangerous , we of the reformed church are not to be accounted enemies of the sacrament , because we do not adore it , following that course which is safest and voidof all danger , lest we should adore what we know not , like the samaritans of old , john 4. lastly , we cannot be traduc'd for being enemies to any profess'd legal order , whether political or ecclesiastical ; since it is our desire that all things should be done decently and regularly in the church , according to the apostolic precept , 1 cor. 4. 40. and for that we press nothing more urgently in the public government , then due obedience to the magistrates , ignorant of the dangerous axioms of your roman church , which tear up by the roots the authority of princes , and subject the heads and diadems of kings and emperors to the mitre and feet of the pope . nay , we are in this point so rigid in our duty , that bellarmin complains , that we give too much power to magistrates , c. 17. de laicis . but because we hold , that the laws of men do not bind the conscience , it is not to be taken in such a sense , as if we deny'd , that men were to be obey'd , because of our consciences ; but only as making this difference between human and divine laws , that the latter only bind and subject the consciences immediately and of themselves . and bellarmin , c. 9. de laicis , confesses ; john gerson , chancellor of the academy of paris , de vit . spirit . lect. 4. and jacobus almain , a doctor of the sorbonn , de protestat . ecclesiae , quaest . 1. cap. 10. both famous men , and neither of them taxed with any error in faith. we do not allow so many rites and ceremonies in the church , not out of any hatred of order and decency , but out of a just abhorrence of tyranny and susperstition . the more night comes on , the more the darkness encreases . multitude of ceremonies are so far from helping , that they stifle piety . if the roman pontiff press'd no more then only a certain primacy among the bishops of the west , for orders sake ; and that by a positive human and not divine law , he might then perhaps have some pretence to complain of us , for refusing to acknowledge such a primacy , as enemies to order in the church ; and yet there might be a decency observ'd therein , without any such primacy , as is apparent from the example of our churches . but we are not to be accus'd of despising order , while we only reject his authority ; in regard he arrogates to himself an absolute primacy in the universal church , not only of order , but of power , authority and jurisdiction ; by virtue of which he pretends to be monarch of the whole church jure divino , contrary to the saying of st. cyprian , de simpl. prael . a bishoprick is that , of which a part is held by several in particular to make up the whole . thus far we have discuss'd the more weighty and more heavy calumnies which are cast upon the protestants by the romanists , on purpose to render them odious to the people , and that they may have some pretence to deliver them up to the flames of hell. now there are some other motives of this rash judgment to be examin'd , that there may not the least shadow of reason remain to support it . there is no name by which we are more frequently mark'd out , then that of heretics ; and under this title you , mr. prior , anathematize us , tho' not the first . for the pope every year , in his bull entitl'd , caena domini , brandishes his thunder of excommuication over our heads , and interdicts us from all society with roman catholics ; so that they dare not either read our books , or hear our sermons . where-ever the rigor of the inquisition reigns , our people are hurry'd before its cruel tribunal , as to the altars of busiris , and the roman doctors presently preach to us the axioms of their school ; that heretics and excommunicated persons , ipso facto , lose the dominion and property of their goods and estates ; that they are incapable of all lawful jurisdiction ; that they do more harm in a common-wealth then whores ; nay then jews and turks ; so that 't is better to tolerate brothel-houses and synagogues then their meetings : that for this reason the pope has power to deprive kings of their dignity ; to absolve subjects from their oaths of fidelity given to the magistrates : that a husband may forsake his wife upon this account , if she presume to bring up the children , common to both , in heresie , altho' the husband had condescended and engaged his promise upon the contract of marriage . lastly , that faith given to heretics , may be violated without any remorse of conscience . however i maintain this crime of heresie to be unjustly , and out of meer calumny fixed upon us , the word being taken in that sense , wherein the scripture condemns heresie ; as when st. paul reck'ns it among the fruits of the flesh , gal. 5. 20. and commands titus to reject a heretic , tit. 3. 10. i say protestants are no heretics in that sense wherein heresie is condemn'd in scripture . certain it is , that the signification of this word is in general more diffus'd among the antients , and in particular more largely us'd among the romanists , and that among both they are frequently tax'd of heresie , who according to the scripture are very remote from it . first in general among the antients : for philastrius bishop of brescia , contemporary with st. ambrose , reck'ns for heresie the opinion of those that attributed the epistle to the hebrews , to clement or barnabas ; also the opinion of them that affirm'd the stars to be fix'd in their celestial globes . whether or no were the quartodecimans justly deem'd heretics , because they would have easter to be precisely celebrated upon the fourteenth moon ? for this was the opinion of all the churches of asia the less , and which polycrates , a holy man , stifly maintains from apostolical tradition . and when victor bishop of rome , presum'd , about two hundred years after christ , for that reason to excommunicate the asiatic churches ; that is to say , to renounce communion with them ; irenaeus of lyons sharply reprov'd him , as the epistles of polycrates and irenaeus extant about this matter in eusebius , declare , hist . eccles . l. 5. c. 23. & 24. was aetius deservedly numbred among the heretics , because he acknowledg'd no difference , jure divino , between a bishop and a presbyter ? for it is not evident that the scripture acknowledges any such difference ; and that st. jerom upon cap. 2. of the epistle to titus , was plainly of the same opinion ; nay , and according to medina in bellarmin , that st. ambrose , st. austin , sedulius , primasius , and other the most famous fathers of the church , were all of the same judgment . then again , without question , rome does no way approve the ancients for numbring the angelics among the heretics , because they gave religious worship to angels , which she herself defends ; or those who by st. austin are call'd nudipedales , or pattalorynchites ; against the former of which it is objected , that they went bare-foot , seeing that at this day this is one of the greatest marks of extraordinary sanctity among you romanists . the other are tax'd to have profess'd a certain sort of religious silence , which the carthusian monks however make no small part of their glory . or the collyridians of epiphanius , heres . 79. who offer'd to the blessed virgin little cakes or wiggs , in greek call'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and gave her the title of queen of heaven : which they that now refuse to do , are all accounted heretics . or the starolatrae of nicephorus , hist . l. 18. c. 54. who , as the name imports , worshipt the cross ; which most of you assert is a duty to be done ; gretser the jesuite affirming , who in that , follows thomas , cajetan , valentia and vasquez , that it is the more common opinion among those of his religion , l. 1. de cruce , c. 49. more paricularly among the modern romanists under gregory vii . the collation of benefices by princes , and by caesar , was call'd the simonian and henrician heresie . and as often as in matters meerly political any difference happen'd betwen the kings and emperors and the bishops of rome , they declar'd them heretics . thus boniface viii , declar'd philip the fair , king of france , a heretic , because he sent none of his soldiers to the holy war. thus john albret , king of navar , was declar'd a heretic by julius ii , because he took part with lewis xii , tho' the quarrel was not about matter of faith ; and by virtue of that condemnation he lost his kingdom , which the spaniard has kept ever since . john xxii , pronounced lewis of bavaria , the emperor , a heretic , because he defended the cause of the franciscans , at that time out of the pope's favour ; but more particularly that of ockam . i forbear to mention any more . we must therefore restrain the signification of this word , and a little more diligently examin who is properly a heretic , to the end we may the more easily prove the protestants not to be guilty of this crime . an heretic ( in my opinion ) is one who for the sake of temporal profit , but chiefly of honor and supremacy , or of lordship , either founds or follows false and new opinions . thus st. austin , de utilitate ad cred . honor. c. 1. now in this sense we are not heretics : for tho' the opinions were false which we uphold , yet we could not be said to follow them for the sake of any temporal profit , more especially of honor or supremacy , but only for the obtaining of salvation , and upon the only motive of our consciences ; in regard it is plain to all the world , that god has annexed to our profession reproach , the cross and poverty ; and that the protestants often experience the truth of that sentence of st. paul , all that will live godly in christ jesus , shall suffer persecution , 2 tim. 3. 12. let cardinal bellarmin come in for a share too . why ? because he has lit upon a most powerful means for me to demonstrate to mr. prior , that we are no heretics . he therefore , c. 8. de not . eccles . going about to prove , that there is no church among the greeks , notwithstanding the continued succession of their bishops from the apostles time ; at least from the reign of constantine the great , under whom he believes the constantinopolitan church began , says , that the greeks were lawfully convicted in three full councils , the lateran , that of lyons , and the other of florence , of heresie and schism , more especially of the heresie about the proceeding of the holy ghost from the son. this question about the proceeding of the holy ghost , i do not pretend to enter into ; nor do i see any great difference between the latins , affirming the holy ghost to proceed from the father and the son ; and the greeks , alledging that he proceeds from the father through the son. this is that which i think worthy observation , that after all the tridentin decisions , whereby the greatest part of the opinions of our churches were condem'd for heresies , bellarmin attributes no other heresie to the greeks , besides that of the proceeding of the holy ghost . whence it follows , that among the greeks , the marriage of priests , communicating under both kinds , and with leavened bread ; the rejecting extreme unction , auricular confession , transubstantiation , purgatory , and pontifical monarchy , were no heresies ; in all which the orientals agree with us ▪ now if these articles of the greeks had bin heretical , how comes it to pass that the lateran , lyons and florentine councils , which enquir'd into their errors , past them by ? but if they were not heretical among the greeks in the east , why should they be so among the protestants in the west ? if among the greeks it be no heresie , but only a schism to reject the papal authority , and to shake off his yoke , why must it be a pernicious and capital heresie among the protestants ? neither is it to be doubted , but that if the greeks would have subjected themselves in the lateran council to the see of rome , all the above-mentioned articles , except the denial of the pope's supremacy , had been allow'd them . whence it is apparent that those articles are neither heretical nor pernicious in faith , nor destructive of salvation ; since it was possible that the greeks retaining them , might nevertheless have bin true members of the catholic church , and consequently capable of eternal life . but that no man may think i am overcuriously romaging for my justification in the thesis's of my adversaries , that i may slip out at length at some back-door , i shall add some direct reasons for our innocency , which cannot be answer'd . first therefore , no man can be traduc'd as a heretic , and branded with an infamous crime , unless it be sufficiently apparent , that he , as the scripture says , has receded from the holy command of god , and suffer'd shipwrack of his faith. for as st. austin says , de unit . eccles . c. 5. no man is to be branded with an ignominious mark , unless it be first prov'd by most manifest proofs , that the mark belongs to him. and therefore formerly councils were assembled , as well provincial as general , for the conviction of heretics ; wherein it was lawful for the offenders to defend themselves , and the cause was seriously examin'd by the rule of faith , and the documents of sacred scripture . neither did passion prevail among them , but truth and the fear of god. but in respect of the protestants , no such thing was ever observ'd ; for against them they began preposterously with execution . the first arguments of their adversaries , were halters , fire and sword , according to the dystich affixed to the bed of charles v , at the augustan dyet , in the year 1530. vtere jure tuo , caesar , servosque lutheri ense , rota , ponto , funibus , igne neca . caesar , use thy own power , and luther's fry with halters , swords , wheels , fire and sea destroy . whence it came to pass , that after a thousand sorts of executions , and numberless martyrs consum'd by violent deaths ; at length a council was assembled , but packt , and consisting of none but the capital enemies of the protestants ; not to hear them calmly and mildly , nor to discuss their cause with charity and meekness , but to brandish and rattle o'er their heads the thunder os anathema's . neither were they ever admitted or heard in this council , i mean that of trent ; the history of which , if read , is sufficient to display the justice of it . nay , rome it self was asham'd of this council ; for she only publish'd the canons and decrees , but diligently suppress'd the acts ; which nevertheless were afterwards , through the singular providence of god , brought to lightby paul sarpio , a venetian , of the order of the servites , under the name of pietro soave polano , to the great astonishment and detestation of all men , whose judgments were more sound and impartial . in the second place , there is no heresie , where there is no stubborn obstinacy , nor wilful persisting in the error . this st. austin teacheth us , epist . 162. they who defend not their opinion with any stubborn animosity , tho' false and perverse , more especially if not brought forth by the boldness of their own presumption , but having receiv'd it from their parents , either seduc'd or fall'n into error , seek after the truth with industrious care , ready to be corrected when they have found it , are not to be numbred among heretics . now the reform'd are far from any such stubbornness ; nothing retains them in their religion , except the force of conscience through the evidence of truth . we daily offer those who accuse us of heresie , to forsake the error , if we are in any , so they shew it to us with the light of truth . for with that only daughter of heaven we are enamor'd e'en to death , who alone can recover and assert our freedom . if we discover any extraordinary zeal and fervor ( i wish it were more fervent ) in our profession , that is not to be imputed to any spirit of contradiction , but to that most firm persuasion of our hearts , through the celestial illumination of the divine word , that we are in the way of truth . but yet a little farther . thirdly , as a cat has an enmity against a bat , and will eat it , either because she takes it for a mouse , or a bird ; so you romanists prosecute us protestants with an implacable hatred , and damn us to the flames of hell , either as heretics , or , if that pretence fail , as schismatics . for they who deal most gently by us , can afford us no better then to lay to our charge the crime of schism , the rending of the seamless garment of christ , the viper's skin , and the breach of the churches unity . but as far as we are from heresie , so far likewise are we from schism ; and of this crime it will be as easie to clear our selves as of the former . first therefore , tho' the first authors of the reformation had overhastily deserted the roman communion ; which cannot be said , in regard that they try'd all ways to preserve themselves in it , with safety to their consciences ; nevertheless they who were born after the schism , and prefer the protestant communion before the roman , because they find satisfaction of conscience in it , which they have no prospect of in the other communion , cannot be accus'd of schism , nor can be censur'd to have lost the hopes of salvation , because they persevere in the protestant communion . this perhaps , mr. prior , you look upon as a paradox , and yet it may be prov'd without any great difficulty . certain it is , that formerly , under jeroboam , ten entire tribes , a schism happening , deserted the communion of the church and temple of jerusalem , of which god had said , my name shall abide there ; and having made choice of dan and bethel for the places of public worship , joyn'd idolatry to their schism . for the calves at dan and bethel , under which they ador'd god , were most assuredly idols . nevertheless it is a question whether the posterity of these schismatics , born in the time of the schism it self , and as it were carry'd away with the torrent of it , are to be excluded from salvation ; so that they abstain'd from the worship of idols at that time . the reason of the doubt seems very great ; for that god , long after the schism , still acknowledg'd the ten tribes for his people ; sent his prophets to them , and entrusted them with his extraordinary oracles . if then it cannot be said of these ten tribes , so notoriously schismatical , that there was nothing remaining of the covenant of god , and light of nature for them , who were as it were swept away with the torrent of schism ; much less are the modern protestants to be excluded from salvation , and formally to be accounted heretics , tho' it should be granted , that the first authors of the schism did sin against the rules of charity , and overhastily broke the bond of unity , especially seeing that the divine worship under the new testament is not fixed to rome and the quirinal mount , as it was to sinai , and the temple of jerusalem . but there is no necessity that we should over earnestly desire the assistance of the ten tribes ; our cause would be but in a desperate condition , should it stand in need of their aid . i must confess , we did depart from the church of rome , and that another worship was set up in the west as to external rites , then was publicly receiv'd before the time of that departure . but i deny that this departure , so far as concerns our selves , to be a schism ; rather i averr , on the other side , that it was lawful and just , and that they are to be accounted schismatics who were the occasion of so necessary a departure , that caus'd the wound to gangrene , and shut the gate against all peace and re-union of the church . for sometimes it may be convenient to desert some societies that profess the name of christ , if there be taught among them any other gospel then what we have receiv'd from the apostles . this is a thing not to be question'd . hence apoc. 2. 6. the ephesians are commended , because they hated the nicolaitans . on the other side , the pergamenians are reprov'd , ver . 15 , 16. because they gave them a toleration . hence in the ancient church , the orthodox and catholics always very sedulously deserted the communion of heretics . rome it self , which now accuses us of schism , in the very infancy of the christian religion departed from the asiatic churches upon a slight difference about easter-day . and it is long since that the romanists broke the bond of unity with the whole east . but it is not long since , that the commonwealth of venice being excommunicated by paul v , the jesuites were seen openly to desert the whole territory ; so that they rather chose to renounce their temples , their altars , and their ordinary worship , then remain in the least communion with the venetian . so that they are not simply to be blam'd who separate , but they that separate unjustly and rashly . let us see then whether or no our separation were just and necessary , that we may free it from being schismatical . certainly it cannot be said , that we separated willingly and of our own accords , but constrain'd and expell'd by all manner of violences . in the very bosom of the roman church , we importunately desir'd a reformation of abuses , which process of time had multiplied , as well in doctrin as in disciplin ; and which the grandees and people in the churches of germany , france , england , and the low countries , most earnestly long'd for , both in the head and members . but what was done ? they were not only not heard , much less heard in so just a petition , but all severity was exercis'd against them with temporal and spiritual arms ; fire , sword and halters were made use of to extirpate out of the world those whom anathema's and the thunder of excommunication had expell'd from all public communion . thus excommunicated , expell'd , and lyable to dire persecution , what should we do ? it was not safe to redeem your communion at the price of our consciences , by subscribing to the errors themselves , and by receiving all those school-assertions which we deem'd contrary to the rules of christian doctrin , as articles of our faith. therefore it was necessary that another worship should be set up , that other pulpits should be erected , and that other congregations should be assembled together , which was every where done by the authority of the magistrate , whose duty it is to protect the church , and sedulously to take care for the reformation of doctrin and disciplin therein , if corrupted through the neglect of the ordinary pastors . becanus the jesuite , analog . vet. & nov. test . c. 26. num . 4. reck'ns up several reformations made in the jewish church by pious kings , such as were asa , jehosaphat , josia , ezechia and joas , who most certainly had sufficient authority to reform the worship of god , and to restore it to its primitive purity . therefore it cannot be deny'd , but that those christian princes and magistrates , who in the times of our fore-fathers , put their helping hands to the reformation , had a right to labour the institution of another worship , more pure , more holy , and more plain then that from which they were forc'd to make a separation , because they had requir'd a reformation of it . moreover , tho' rome had not forsaken us , yet there was a necessity of forsaking her ; because she refused to reform her own abuses , and long contracted corruptions . we have in this particular a most express command , apoc. 18. 4. come out of her my people , that you be not partakers of her crimes , and receive not of her punishments . which command is of so much the greater moment , because the jesuites themselves , ribera upon the 14. and 18. apoc. and viegas upon the 18. interpret that to be meant of rome , not the ethnic , but the christian rome , and such as it is in scripture foretold it shall be under anti-christ . to us also ( says viegas , sect . 1. in 18. apoc. ) it seems that the same thing ought to be said with aretas , primasius , ambrose , jerom , and others , ( observe what testimonies he cites and how many ) that the idolatry of it is here meant , and that rome shall depart from the faith , and so shall become the habitation of devils , and of every unclean spirit , and every unclean bird , by reason of her execrable enormities , and superstition of idolatry , which at that time shall rage far and near in the roman city and empire . but you would say , mr. prior , if you had any wit , how comes it to pass that you have now more nice consciences , then your fore-fathers had before the reformation , who dy'd in the communion of the roman church , and of whose salvation you are unwilling to make any doubt ? i answer , first ; that the consciences of others are no rule to ours , and that every man ought to follow his own and not anothers . would you have me , as you desire in your letter , that i should embrace the roman communion ? what if i should press you to embrace ours , wherein so many men enjoy the tranquility of their consciences ? secondly , i say that our fore-fathers might with safety to their consciences persevere in the roman communion , notwithstanding they abominated the abuses and corruptions of it , because god had not shewn them a way to depart ; nor were the abuses as yet so palpably intollerable , because they had not as yet obtain'd the force of law , nor were establish'd under the penalties of excommunication . but the example of our ancestors cannot be apply'd to us , because that god set up the standard of the gospel in another place to us. he call'd to us to come out of babel , when the opinions of the scholastics were changed into articles of faith. so long as the time appointed for their captivity lasted , the israelites might securely abide either in egypt or babel : but it had bin a crime for them to have remain'd there any longer , when god call'd them forth to liberty . he would be very ridiculous indeed , who having rich and fertile pastures , should neglect them , and rather chuse to carry his flock into noxious grounds , in hopes that his sheep would let alone the hurtful weeds , and only feed upon the wholsom herbs . so were he deservedly to be derided , who should prefer the noxious and dangerous pastures of the roman church , before the well wooded gardens of the reformed churches , in hopes of discerning the poysonous weeds from the wholsom herbage , as it is very probable our ancestors did . lastly , i add this farther ; that i do not here dispute , whether the roman communion may be retain'd , without the loss of eternal salvation ? this question belongs to another place . but , whether we are schismatics , because we have deserted it ? now i maintain the negative , because that conscience alone summon'd us to the separation , without any other consideration ; nay , contrary to all other worldly considerations which persuaded us to adhere to it . some there are , who to convict us of schism , reproach the calling of our pastors , but with an argument too weak for the proof of so great a crime . formerly the novatians and donatists made a schism in the church , because they wou'd not submit to bishops of places canonically instituted , but set up bishops of their own chusing , who , for that they were destitute of canonical election , wanted a lawful calling . but there was no such thing could be said of our first pastors in the work of reformation . for they were not elected and constituted hand over head , in opposition to others already canonically instituted , as the novatians in the roman see oppos'd novatus against the council ; but were lawfully and canonically constituted in their functions , according to all the ceremonies then us'd in the church , and by the nature of their calling , by which they knew themselves bound to propagate the truth , were constrain'd in their consciences to oppose themselves against the abuses and corruptions at that time crept into the church , and to apply themselves to a reformation . but as they were lawfully call'd , so they could impart that calling to others ; and by that means it is deriv'd to us , and so by us may be deriv'd to our successors . for they are not to be thought to have lost their calling , for opposing themselves against the abuses of that church wherein they receiv'd it . nay , they had bin unworthy of it , had they not oppos'd themselves against those corruptions that were so well known to them . for every church that confers upon any man the sacred function of the public ministry , seems to say to him , what trajan the emperor was wont to say to the person whom he created master of the horse , by the delivery of a sword , vse this in my defence , if my commands are just ; but if unjust , make use of it against me . thus a pastor canonically ordaind , ought to make use of his calling , to support the doctrin of the church wherein he receiv'd it , if it be conformable to truth ; but if not , to oppose it . nor does their being excommunicated , deprive them of their calling ; because it was unjust , and made use of to support the errors which they impugned , and to keep up in the temple the money-changers tables , which they endeavour'd to overturn . nay , the very romanists themselves confess , that the character of the clergy is indelible , and that an excommunicated person may consecrate , preach , and administer the sacraments effectually . neither is it to be said , that the first reformers were meer presbyters , that could not confer their calling upon others , in regard that ordination belongs only to the bishops . for in regard the sacred scriptures do not so plainly teach us what is the difference between a presbyter and a bishop ; and that some of yours , particularly medina , confess that the function of ordaining may as well belong to a presbyter as a bishop , you ought not to make any great difficulty in this case , in regard the dispute is not yet determin'd . to which i add , that in several places the reformation began from the bishops , who therefore held their former dignity in the reformation , which they held before . and it is a wonder , mr. prior , that you and yours should carp at the calling of our pastors , to prove our want of succession of pastors , when your selves acknowledg , that any man without orders , without a character , without any call , may consecrate the eucharist . i am contented with one unanswerable argument . your durandus , in his rationale , lib. 4. cap. 35. § 7. also the author of the curates manual , de sacr. eucharist . cap. 10. and many others , give this reason for the secreta , ( i. e. the speaking the words of consecration so low as not to be heard ) being introduc'd in the canon of the mass : because that formerly , when the canon was repeated with a loud voice , the people readily learnt the rites of consecrating ; whence it came to pass , that the shepherds in the country , laying the bread upon a stone , and repeating over it the canon and words of the consecration , presently changed their bread into flesh . now either this must be a fable , which however you frequently make use of to establish your figment of transubantiation ; or else you must allow that any man may consecrate and celebrate the most august of all sacraments , tho' neither call'd nor ordain'd , as we cannot believe those shepherds to have bin . but as the crime of schism is falsely laid to our charge , so are we most falsely said to be without the church , without which there is no salvation . we have separated indeed from the roman communion , but it does not thence follow that we are out of the church of god , in regard that by the grace of god we are members of the catholic church , professing christianity , baptiz'd in the name of the most holy trinity , in all things adhering to the head and foundation , christ jesus . cardinal hosius , in his confession , acknowledges , that the church is there where-ever the belief of the mediator is . we have a belief of a mediator , through the favour of god ; and therefore we are hated at rome , becaose we acknowledg christ to be the only mediator . besides that , we have not departed from your roman church , unless in such things wherein she first departed from the word of god , and the purity of antiquity , adhering still to the same communion of faith and charity with her in the fundamentals of christianity ; and knowing that we and the members of your communion are brethren in baptism , as the israelites and jews were brethren in circumcision , tho' in external worship they differ'd very much . nor can any probable reason be invented to convince us , that any man ought to be subject to the bishop of rome , and retain his communion , to the end he may be in a church out of which there is no salvation . so many christians as are within the ancient patriarchates of the east , and who exceed you romanists far in number , are not rashly to be said to be out of the church of christ , because they refuse to be under the pope's yoke . the churches of asia were not excluded from the covenant of christ by the rash excommunication of pope victor , because they separated from him upon the difference about easter-day . the roman clergy separated from their pope liberius , who had subscrib'd to arianism , without incuring the blame of schism , or the loss of salvation . the famous st. cyprian bishop and martyr , whom your church afterwards worshipt among the rest of her saints , dy'd out of the communion and subjection to the see of rome , divided from her both in faith and affection , by reason of his doctrin of re-baptizing heretics , was very hardly thought of by stephen bishop of rome ; and yet no man hitherto made any doubt but that he obtain'd salvation . and therefore 't is an idle thing to exact from us subjection to the see of rome , to the end we may be in the church , and obtain salvation , especially if the papacy be now extinct , and that there has bin no lawful pope for a long time . now this is easily prov'd : for that i may pass over in silence so many schisms by which the succession of the popes was interrupted ; so many simoniacal elections into that see , which are recorded in history ; so many popes in the tenth age to be call'd apostatic , and renouncers of christ , rather then apostolic ( upon the testimony of genebrade ) i use a new argument to which you romanists can make no answer . it is confirm'd as well by the canon law , as by custom time out of mind , that a pope may constitute a new law , and a new form for chusing a successor ; which not being observ'd , an election otherwise made , is void . hence julius ii , grieving that he had invaded the supreme authority by simony , made a new law concerning the simoniacal election of the pope for the future ; whereby he ordain'd , that any pope who after him should be simoniacally elected , should be lookt upon as an intruder , a magician , a publican , an arch heretic , and that he should by no means be acknowledg'd for a lawful pope . but that sixtus v , was chosen simoniacally , is a thing which almost every body knows . for that he might be elected , he bought the suffrages of cardinal d'este , and the cardinals depending upon him , and covenanted with him in a writing drawn up and subscrib'd with his own hand , that during his pontificate , he would never make jeronymo matthei , who was de'este's enemy , a cardinal , upon condition that by d'este's means he obtain'd the pontificate . upon which being made pope by d'este and his faction , he confess'd himself to be the work of his hands . however sixtus forfeited his faith to him , and created matthei cardinal for all that ; which cardinal d'este took so ill , that he sent the contract between him and sixtus to philip ii , king of spain , who in the year 1589 , sent the duke of sessa his extraordinary embassador to rome , to give notice to sixtus of his intentions to call a general council upon the information of a simoniacal election , and to require the cardinals created by the predecessors of sixtus , and other ecclesiastics , to be present at a council to be assembled at sevil ; but because upon intimation of the council sixtus dy'd for despair , the business went no farther . this is related in a certain book , entitled papatus romanus , cap. 10. pag. 200 , &c. seeing then that sixtus was an illegal and simoniac intruder , certain it is that the papacy ceas'd in him ; so that they who succeeded were no true popes , because they were elected by the cardinals which he created ; who being intruders , as created by a simoniac , wanted right of election , as well according to the council of constance , as for that according to the rule of the lawyers , no man can transfer more right to another , then he has himself . and therefore the whole world ought not to be shut up in one city . some are of cephas , others of paul , others of clement ; let it suffice a christian to be of christ . whoever fears god , and works righteousness in whatever part of the world he is , is acceptable to god. if two or three are gathered together in the name of christ , he will be in the midst of them . the supernal jerusalem , which enjoys her liberty , is the mother of us all . we shall not be judg'd by the roman or popes communion , but by the communion of saints , and of christ . therefore we cannot be schismatics , upon this just , necessary and sound separation of ours . there are still remaining , reverend mr. prior , some other motives of yours to this rash judgment which you give of us , which are now to be brought to the touch with the rest . there are some who believe , a posteriori , that we are deservedly to be listed among the number of the damned , because we stand excommunicated by the pope and the catholic church : but in regard these excommunications do not strike us , but either as heretics or schismatics , they do us no hurt , in regard we are neither heretics nor schismatics , as hath bin already shewn . if they are necessarily to be numbred among the damned , whom the pope has excommunicated , of necessity all in asia the less , who dy'd during the excommunication of victor upon the paschal difference , must be by all christians excluded from the kingdom of heaven ; and that the sacraments , which you our adversaries nevertheless will allow , preserve their excellency by way of physical cause , and in general all public worship must be depriv'd of their efficacy in all provinces which are sometimes subject to papal interdiction . nor ought we to pass over in silence that observation of st. jerom upon that place of mat. 16. wherein the keys of heaven are promis'd to st. peter . this place ( saith the holy man ) the bishops and presbyters not understanding , assume to themselves something of the pride of the pharisees , even to damn the innocent , and absolve the guilty ; whereas god regards not the sentence of the priest , but the life of the offender . but according to this saying of st. jerom , all casuists and canonists acknowledge that an unjust excommunication is invalid ; and that such an excommunicate may both administer and receive the sacraments with a good conscience . an excommunication without a just cause , is not valid in the interior court ; therefore such a one may celebrate , where it is no scandal ( says the jesuite emanuel sa , voce excommunicat . § 4. but toletus , lib. instruct . sacram. cap. 10. num . 7. more positively asserts , that there is no unjust sentence of excommunication can bind , either as to god , or as to the church . but it is unjust ( as he says again § 1. ) from some defect ; which if it be essential , makes it no excommunication ; and then it is not to be dreaded , neither does it bind either in the court of heaven or earth : which he confirms by the testimony of several canonists . if therefore we are unjustly excommunicated , and as the schoolmen phrase it , clave errante , or with an erring key , and that these excommunications are of no force , our damnation cannot be inferr'd a posteriori from such sentences ; but that they are unjust and null , i shall easily demonstrate . an excommunication is said to be null , says toletus , ibid. § 4. if it contain an intolerable error , &c. now then a sentence is said to contain an intolerable error , when any one is excommunicated ; because he does that which is good in it self , or does not do that which is in its own act unlawful . why then are we excommunicated ? surely because we do that which is good in it self , applying our selves to the word of god , and will not adhere to those who would have us to be wiser then the scripture can make us , and refusing to do what is evil in it self , or at least what we judge in our consciences to be so , and because we adhere not to a worship unlawful and contrary to scripture . an excommunication is void , if it be pronounc'd by one already excommunicated or suspended from jurisdiction , or interdicted , or after a lawful appeal , says emanuel sa , as above , § 1. and toletus has the same words . now such is the excommunication which is thunder'd over our heads . for it is long ago that the bishops of rome through their simonies have according to the canons incurr'd the penalty of most dreadful excommunications ; so that they are uncapable of all jurisdiction . for an excommunicate cannot exercise an act of jurisdiction , without sinning ; nay , if it be a public excommunication , all his sentences are void , says toletus , lib. 1. inst . sacerd. cap. 13. § 4. and who can question , since the first punishment of a simoniac is , ipso facto , papal excommunication , as toletus asserts , lib. 5. cap. 93. but that he is notoriously and publicly excommunicated , who is notoriously and publicly simoniacal , as i have particularly made it appear of sixtus v , who was nevertheless the author of that bull , entitled de coena domini , in the form in which it is now extant , whereby the protestants are solemnly excommunicated every year by the pope ? to this i add , that they two can have no jurisdiction over us , who curse us to the pit of hell , and so their excommunications , tho' they two were lawful bishops , are void . for if a bishop cannot excommunicate one that is out of his diocese , or in a priviledg'd place , as emanuel sa affirms , as above , sect. 12. by what right does the bishop of rome pretend to excommunicate us , who never belong'd to a diocese ? or to arrogate a general jurisdiction and authority over the whole church of god , which he had never any thing to do with ? in a word , we value not their inconsiderate , unjust and void excommunications . they are dull and silly thunders that hurt no body . such sort of curses , god , for the benefit of his true adorers , turns into blessings , according to that of david , psal . 109. ver . 23. from such tempests the damnation of the protestants is no more to be inferr'd , then of theirs who formerly profess'd christ , because the scribes and pharisees excommunicated them after their solemn manner . no less ridioulous are they who alledge , that the protestants are therefore damn'd , because they profess a religion which wants the seal of miracles . truly you romanists do very well to put us in mind of your miracles . for most learned men of your communion complain , that the golden legends of the saints are stust with fables , and couterfeit miracles , as you may read particularly in melchior canus , producing the testimonie of ludovicus vives , lib. 2. locor . cap. 6. their frauds and impostures are everywhere obvious ; by which the saying of lyranus upon dan. 2. before the reformation ; sometimes there was in the church a notorious delusion of the people by miracles counterfeited by the priests and their adherents for temporal gain . those imaginary miracles , with which the protestants were to be convinced , in regard they are signs for unbelievers , are not only very seldom wrought before us , but are many times said to be hindred by our presence . the mexican and japanic prodigies , of which the jesuites so loudly boast , are but imaginations , since acosta , victoria and canus expresly acknowledge , that no miracles are wrought in india to promote conversion . and acosta denies that there is any use of miracles there , lib. 6. proc . ind. salut . cap. 17. in those places ( says he ) there is no need of any more then good works , and of shining so before men , which the natives beholding , may glorifie the father which is in heaven . : this is the most potent miracle to persuade . but francis victoria , relect. 5. prop. 5. is of opinion , that the christian faith is not so sufficiently preach'd to the barbarians , that they should be bound to believe under new sin : for i hear of no miracles and signs , no examples of a life so religious , but of many scandals , and many impieties . insomuch that canus applies those idle relations to the common spanish proverb , long ways , long lies ; as if they might lie by authority , who tell stories done or counterfeited in remote and distant regions . so that if xaverius the new apostle of japan , had had the gift of miracles , which is so easily believ'd of him , he ought chiefly then to have exercis'd his gift in the ship , which carry'd him from malaca to japan , where he was forc'd , nolens volens , to behold the mariners sacrificing to an image of the devil , after the manner of their country , and imploring the answers of the image touching the success of their voyage , which , as the barbarians said and believ'd , were sometimes favourable , sometimes terrible . nor would he have needed , had he receiv'd the gift of working miracles from heaven , to have spent so much time in learning the japan language . the words of xaverius are these ; so soon as we have obtain'd the assistance of language , we hope that by the assistance of god the business will proceed much better ; for now we only converse among them like a sort of images ( as not long ago , in the tract of the rhine , the capuchin marco de aviano , to put off his miracles , ran about , like a barbarian , among the germans , for no body understood what he said ) they talk much concerning us , and turn and look one upon another , while we are mute , and are constraind as it were to go to school again , till we have learnt the elements of the language . is here , i beseech you , any apostolic character to be found ? yet all these are extant , epist . lib. 1. epist . japan adject . com. eman. acosta , of the transactions of the jesuites in the east , and by maffaeus the jesuite , set forth at delingtren , anno dom. 1571. the epistle is written by xaverius to the society from congoxima , on the first of november , 1549. afterwards the same maffaeus , for what reason i know not , left out this epistle , from whence i faithfully transcrib'd the quotations above-mention'd ; unless it were that he was asham'd of the truth in his select epistles written from india , which he added to his indian history , printed at cologn , anno dom. 1589. moreover , not to say any thing of the work of reformation begun and propagated , then which a greater miracle can hardly be imagin'd , i would fain oppose the two following observations to those that reproach us with want of miracles . i. miracles are not always among them , with whom they are wrought , as a mark of truth , when heathens and heretics formerly could boast of miracles , and many shall say to christ in that day , lord , have we not cast forth devils , and wrought many wonders in thy name ? to whom he shall answer , depart from me , for i know ye not , mat. 7. 21 , 23. and there shall come false christs and false prophets , arm'd with signs and wonders , by which the elect themselves , if it were possible , shall be seduc'd , mat. 24. 24. thus allius naevius , the augur , cut a whetstone with a razor , in the view of all the people of rome . and one of the vestal virgins , as a confirmation of her untainted chastity , took up water in a sieve , and carry'd it away . and claudia , another of the same order , alone without any help , with her girdle drew along the ship which carry'd the mother of the gods , which many mariners , hawling all together , could not stir . plutarch also , in coriolanus , relates that the image of fortune spoke ; and often , as the same author relates , in the same life , the images and statues were seen to sweat , bleed and weep . st. austin likewise tells us of many such portents that happen'd among the gentiles , lib. 10 de civitate dei. tacitus also . hist . lib. 4. relates of vespasian , that by his single touch , he restor'd sight to the blind , and strength to the lame . bellarmin . cap. 14. de not. eccles . that both their diseases proceeded from the devil , who having seiz'd the eye of the one , and the leg of the other , hindred the use of their limbs , to the end he might seem to heal when he ceas'd to hurt . i do not see why the protestants may not use the same exception against so many miracles which the romanists seign by the touch either of their images or their reliques . but i shall here furl my swelling sails , mr. prior , being ready to explain and enlarge my self , whensoever you shall be pleas'd to re-assume and examin this matter . ii. miracles do not of necessity follow truth . for tho' they were necessary in the time of infant christianity ; yet the true religion being now establish'd and setled over all the world , if not manifestly profitable , they cease however to be absolutely necessary . so that st. austin , lib. 2. de civitate dei , with very great reason said , whoever still enquires after prodigies , to confirm his belief , is himself a great prodigy . i forbear any more ; let it suffice me only to produce the fathers of the second nicene council , act . 4. why do our images at this day work no miracles ? i answer with the apostle ; miracles are not for believers , but for the vnbelievers . now then if the protestants embrace the doctrin of christ and his apostles , the miracles of christ and his apostles are sufficient for them : which would be necessary again , were they to follow some new and never heard of gospel before . nor does the difference , whatever it is , between the reform'd churches and the lutherans , whatever it be either in ceremonies , or some points of doctrin , savour a jot more your precipitate judgment concerning the eternal damnation of the protestants . for you romanists your selves acknowledge , that the greek and eastern christians would be in the way of salvation , would they but submit to the empire of the pope , tho' they retain'd their ceremonies and opinions differing in many circumstances from the rites and doctrin of the roman church . it is apparent from the epistle of st. austin to januarius , that all the churches did not make use of the same rites and ceremonies . in the apostolic churches also , soon after the first dawn of christianity , disputes and contentions arose ; to pass by those that fell out between cyril and theodoret , chrysostom and epiphanius , st. jerom and st. austin ; nay , between those very men themselves that reproach the lutherans and the reformed with their differences , which i would to god they were clos'd up , there is the greatest difference among these upbraiders , not only as to ceremonials , as is apparent from so many orders of monks varying among themselves in habit , rules and public worship ; but also as to opinions ; as is evident from those most terrible controversies about which your theologists most sharply contend and quarrel one with another ; of the authority of the pope above a council ; of a council above the pope ; of the infallibility of the bishop of rome ; of his power over kings and secular princes ; the conception of the blessed virgin ; of the sort of adoration due to the cross and images ; of predestination , grace , free-will , and the like . so that the doctors of your communion split themselves into various sects ; according to which some are thomists , others scotists , others real , others nominal , others love to be call'd jansenists , and others molinists . nay , there is not any article of the christian faith , about which you have not rais'd contentions and disputes , if not more sharp and eager , yet of no less moment then all those which are stirring between the reformed and the lutherans . and that diversity which you object against us , is far inferior to your dissentions ; nor is it concerned in the fundamentals of christianity , in which the reformed of both parties are plainly agreed . so that it is a kind of miracle , that there should be so little variance between so many reformed churches dispers'd all over europe , compos'd of various people and under several princes ; tho' among them there is no church which commands over others , nor any intervening political tye to constrain them to such an agreement in matters of faith. in the mean time , there is no schism between ours and the lutheran churches , seeing that we neither separated from them , nor they from us. in poland , the brethren of the helvetian , bohemian and augustan confession , setting a laudable example , communicated before together , by virtue of the decree of sendomir . and in the year 1631 , in the national synod of france , a decree was made for admitting the lutherans , as brethren in christ , and members of the same mystical body to our communion of the lord's supper , and for allowing them brotherly toleration in those points wherein they differ from us . and tho' they in their anger pretend that we err in fundamentals , which , through the mercy of god , they will never be able to prove ; yet we judge more tenderly and better of them , so disproving the opinions which they obstinately defend , that we deny them to be in themselves deadly or pernicious to salvation ; or that they are such as ought not to hinder christian peace between us and them , or prevent an ecclesiastical communion which might be obtain'd between churches not agreeing in all things , if the foundation were sound . now we believe that to be a fundamental error , wherein there is , according to the ancient phrase of the synagogue , a denial of the foundation , which cannot comply with true faith and holiness . for neither all truths , even those that are reveal'd , are of the same necessity : neither are all wounds which are given to truth , mortal ; nor is every disease , an epelipsie or the falling-sickness . st. paul distinguishes between the foundation and the superstructure , 1 cor. 3. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. he that meddles with fundamentals , is lyable to an anathema , gal. 1. 8. in others there is room left for exhortation , rom. 14. 1. phil. 3. 15 , 16. here the gnat is not scrupulously to be strain'd at , as there the camel is not to be rashly swallowed . we break friendship with those that are openly wicked , but we bear with the blemishes and infirmities of friends . nor is that presently to be thought of the necessity of faith , which yet may have a near relation to it . and therefore you canot blame us for offering our communion to the lutherans , and rejecting the papal . for that between us and them there is not only a harmony in the foundation of our faith , and all the most solid and necessary points of christian religion , but also in common protestancy against the idolatry , tyranny and foul errors of the church of rome ; both sides impugning the adoration of the bread , transubstantiation , sacrifice of the mass , communion under one kind , justification by works , traditions not written , purgatory , worship of images , infallibility of the pope , &c. so that it would be much better for us to arm our selves with mutual and brotherly forbearance against the continual conspiracies of antichrist , then to lay our sides open to them through our unhappy discords and wars by which neither side can hope for triumph . far more absurd it would be to upbraid the protestants with their small number , or to infer their damnation from that . for much more numerous is the number of christians under the four patriarchs in the east , and the great duke of muscovy and russia , then of those who in the west adhere to the see of rome . without question the number of the orthodox was very small , at what time , as st. jerom testifies , the whole world groan'd , and admir'd to see it self all arian . scarcity makes things valuable ; we are not to adhere to a multitude in evil ; nor is the broad way to be trod , but the narrow path which leads to life , not pervious to many . if we must be excluded from salvation for the smallness of our number ; by the same reason the pharisees of old might have damn'd the apostles , and the heathens the christians . in the mean time , they who reproach us with our small number , and glory in their own multitude , when they come to view the face of europe , are compell'd to talk after another rate . bellarmin . praefat . in tom. 1. controver . cannot restrain his fury . who is ignorant ( saith he ) of that same lutheran pest ( for truth was a plague to the seat of pestilence , as christ was the death of death , and a pest to hell ) that sprung up not long since in saxony , and soon after over-ran almost all germany ; then spreading to the north and east , delug'd all denmark , sweadland , norway , gothland , pannonia , hungary ; and then with equal rapidness shooting to the west and south , poyson'd all england , france and scotland , flourishing kingdoms once ; and at last crossing the alps , extended it self even as far as italy ? nor are we to be condemn'd , because we call our selves reformed or protestants , rather then catholics . for we were first call'd protestants in the public dyet at spire , anno dom. 1529. because our electors and princes there protested against the errors and superstitions of the romish church , plainly in the fame sense as in the old old version of the 2 chron. 24. 19. they who after the death of jehoiada oppos'd themselves against idolatry , were mark'd out and differenc'd by the same name . ; but those idolaters would by no means give ear to the protesters . so that there being no satisfaction given to our consciences upon that protestation , deservedly we deserted that communion , which we believ'd to be pernicious to our salvation . nor are we therefore to be thought to have deserted the church : for , as st. chrysostom says very remarkably , hom. 46. in mat. he does not separate from the church who separates corporeally , but he who spiritually relinquishes the fundamental truths of the church . we have left them locally ; they have forsaken us in point of faith : we in departing from them , have left the foundation of the walls ; they in forsaking us , have forsak'n the foundations of scripture . we are call'd reformed , not because we reform'd the religion deliver'd us by christ and the rest of his apostles ; but because we cleans'd it from the rust of abuses and corruptions which that holy religion had contracted through length of time , the subtilty of satan , and the vices of men. and this reformation the people , the princes and magistrates , and those not a few , most earnestly and importunately long'd for all over europe : so that the tridentine fathers , to satisfie the public demands , at least in outward shew , were compell'd to add something of reformation to every one of their dogmatical sessions . however we do not renounce these names of catholic protestants , reformed , or lutherans , seeing that addition of catholic belongs , of right , rather to us then to you romanists ; for that the doctrin which we profess , is the sincere , orthodox and catholic doctrin of the christian church , as the apostles deliver'd it from the beginning . reformed we are , in reference to the rejecting abuses , and human inventions ; but catholics , as we retain the fundamental articles of the christian religion . nor can this name suit with them from whom we have departed in any other respect , then as they retain some fundamental truths , which as yet are common both to them and us ; but not in respect of their additions and traditions in which we dissent from them . in vain do you glory against us , of retaining this name by force . for , as salvian of marseilles says , lib. 4. de provid . what is a holy name without merit , but an ornament in the dirt ? all the particular assemblies of heretics ( says lactantius , lib. 4. divin . institut . cap. ult . ) believe themselves to be the chiefest christians , and their church to be the catholic . the very turks would be called musselmanni , that , is the faithful or catholic ; but it suffices us to be really catholics . good leave therefore have you from us , o romanists , to usurp this name ; as we call the saracens mahumetans , who nevertheless derive not their original from sarah , as sons of the promise ; but from agar , the egyptian bond-woman . thus all the prejudices and foundations of your precipitate judgment being repell'd and remov'd , venerable mr. prior , you constitute at length the only foundation of your opinion upon this , that in regard that ours is a new religion , it is impossible we should gain salvation by the profession . but those things which now are old , were formerly new . the christian religion is at this day new to the chineses and japanners , nevertheless they ought not to reject it for that reason . for this very sake of novelty , the heathens refus'd christianity ; but in vain . there is nothing more ancient then truth , which beheld the true world in its infancy : but false religion , the older it is , so much is it the more mischievous . true it is , the reformation which we profess , is new and newly done ; but the rule of it , which is comprehended in the word of god , is of great antiquity ; according to which , whatever was added of human invention , is separated from the orthodox and catholic doctrin , to the end that true and refin'd antiquity might be retain'd . hence the famous peter moulin , a frenchman , in a large treatise against cardinal perron has more then sufficiently demonstrated the novelty of popery , and the antiquity of the reformed religion . therefore our religion cannot be call'd new , since that alone propounds to us things to be believ'd , which were believ'd by all men , and every where from the time of the apostles , according to the rule of vincentius lyrinensis , and produces over and above out of the treasury of the scripture , her most certain documents : where it is apparent , that all those things which we disprove in the roman communion , are really new and unknown to the apostles and their primitive successors . it is a new thing , and never heard of by the ancient church , that the christian people should be forbid the use of the cup in the sacred eucharist . it was a new thing , that boniface ii , above six hundred years after christ , should be the first who call'd himself vniversal bishop , and bishop of bishops ; and long after him , that gregory vii , or hildebrand , should presume to lay violent hands upon the rights of emperors and princes . nothing newer then the papal indulgences , which first gave occasion to the modern controversies at wittembergh and zurich ; anthony archbishop of florence acknowledging , part . 1. tom. 10. cap. 3. that as for indulgences , we have nothing in the scripture concerning them , nor from the sayings of the ancient fathers ; and the jesuite valentia agreeing , cap. 5. de indulg . that there were certain catholics before luther , ( of whose opinion thomas makes mention , part . 3. quest . 15. art . 5. ) who said , that indulgences were pious frauds . moreover , that the eucharist was celebrated of old without communicants , no man can find in the writings of the antients . the adoration of images was not establish'd till near eight hundred years after christ , in the second council of nice ; and that so slenderly , that the decrees of that petty council were condemn'd and rejected in two synods assembled at paris and frankford by charles the great . and tho' these synods were only national , hence nevertheless it appears that all the churches of germany and france , of which nations those synods consisted , had not then admitted the public worship of images . nay , even george cassander infers from st. austin upon psal . 113. that images and statues were not set up in churches in st. austin's time . moreover bellarmin reports of scotus , that he did not believe transubstantiation to be an article of faith before the lateran council ; that is , before five hundred years ago . the law of celibacy , enjoyn'd the clergy and the priests , is a very new thing , and to which the clergy of leige and the germans would not yield obedience till about five hundred years since . at length calixtus ii , who was created pope in the year 1119. constraind them all to submit , which produc'd these verses upon him : o bone calixte , jam omnis clerus odit , te , quondam presbyteri poterant uxoribus uti , hoc destruxisti , postquam tu papa fuisti , ergo tuum nomen merito habent odio . the clergy hate thee , good calixtus , why ? the presbyters of old with wives did lye ; this thou destroy'dst , when thou wer 't pope created , therefore thy name is now deserv'dly hated . the apostles never knew what monkish retirement meant , which came into the world about three hundred years after christ , under antony and paul ; but the church was utterly ignorant of monkish beggery , till the times of francis and dominic , who , as all men know , were but of late years . i will not undertake here to unravel your whole history , otherwise there would appear very little of antiquity in it . for all those opinions of the romish church which we have rejcted , are not only new , but so new , that as the abuses multiply'd , they were dislik'd and reprov'd by all good men long before luther's time ; among whom there were some , who being offended at such kind of innovations , and consulting the good of their consciences , openly deserted your communion ; as the wicklevians in england , the hussites in germany , the waldenses or albigenses in france and germany , whose public confessions are at this day extant , conformable to ours in the principal heads . nor can i forbear to add in this place a remarkable testimony concerning the waldenses ( whose names for above six hundred years has bin terrible to the roman see ) given by one rainer , an inquisitor of the faith against them , about three hundred years ago , and not long since publish'd by gretser the jesuite : among all the sects ( says that same rainer ) that are or ever were , there is not any one more pernicious to the church ( meaning the roman ) then that of the poor of lyons ( meaning the waldenses ) for three reasons . first , because more lasting ; for some say , that it has bin ever since the time of silvester , and others deduce it from the time of the apostles . secondly , because more general ; for there is hardly any country into which this sect has not made a shift to creep . thirdly , because all others are abominable to god for the immanity of their blasphemies , but this of the waldenses only carries with it a great shew of piety ; because they live justly before men , and believe truly of god , and all the articles of the creed , only they blaspheme and hate the roman church . but so much for them. thus , mr. prior , you have what , as i was willing , so it was my desire to answer to your insipid and inconsiderate letter . do you see by what has bin said , that you have violated the divine , civil and public laws of the instrument of the peace of munster ; nay , which should first have bin said , against the rules of christianity , which proscribes and abominates all such censures of our neighbour worse then a dog or snake ? what now remains of counsel or remedy for such an unjust judge ? i will tell you : implore of god , and beseech your injur'd neighbor , through whose sides you have wounded such infinite numbers of christians , to forgive you , and to pardon these transgressions of yours that are of so great weight . endeavour industriously for the future , like the smitten fisherman , to traffic at a better rate , and to be transform'd by renovation of mind to this , that you may be able better to prove , what is the good will of god so pleasing and so perfect . beware of being wiser then it becomes you to be ; and with an unfeigned charity for the future , detest so wicked and perverse a judgment , adhering to that which is more solid ; and if it may be , as much as in you lyes , live at peace with all men , that you may not be overcome by evil , but may overcome evil by good. this pious and sincere counsel if you slight and disregard , through contumacy and despising it , assuredly there will nothing more certainly befal you then this , that being depriv'd of eternal felicity ( i repeat your own words ) after you have finish'd this mortal course , you will for ever burn with your seducers in the everlasting fire of hell. from which however the great god of his infinite mercy preserve you . amen . farewel , and instead of a new-years-gift , meekly and with patience accept this wholsom answer and admonition , more precious then gold , or all the kingdoms of the world. live soberly , and live eternally the favourer of him who is visitor of the county of weeden . most desirous of your salvation , john herman dalhusius , finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a35885-e250 the inscription . notes for div a35885-e1680 2 cor. 13. 8. tit. 1. 9. gal. 6. 9 , 10. phil. 1. 6 , 11 , 14 , 27 , 28 , 29. james 1. 2 , 12. apoc. 2. 10. 2 tim. 4. 6 , 7 , 8 1 tim. 1. 17. notes for div a35885-e2420 the usual gruonds of the papists uncharitable judgment . 1. of protestants bounding god's omnipotence apud bellarm. de euchar. l. 3. c. 5. whether protestants teach that god is the author of sin. concerning christ's despair on the cross . of protestants being enemies to the blhssed virgin and saints of protestants being enemies to chastity , sobriety , &c. whether protestants be heretics . whether protestants be sehismatics . concerning want of miracles among protestants . concerning the differences of protestants among themselves . concerning the number of protestants who do not submit to the church of rome . of the newness of the reform'd religion . the general london epistle of quirinus kuhlman a christian, to the wiclef-waldenses, hussites, zuinglians, lutherans, and calvinists being an explication of a vision and prophecy of john kregel : wherein the reformation from popery is fundamentally asserted, and the union of protestants convincingly urged : together with a postscript relating to the present popish plot : translated from the latine copy printed at rotterdam in may 1679. epistolarum londinensium catholica. english kuhlmann, quirin, 1651-1689. 1679 approx. 131 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 40 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a47594 wing k754 estc r17471 11862163 ocm 11862163 50034 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a47594) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 50034) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 499:23) the general london epistle of quirinus kuhlman a christian, to the wiclef-waldenses, hussites, zuinglians, lutherans, and calvinists being an explication of a vision and prophecy of john kregel : wherein the reformation from popery is fundamentally asserted, and the union of protestants convincingly urged : together with a postscript relating to the present popish plot : translated from the latine copy printed at rotterdam in may 1679. epistolarum londinensium catholica. english kuhlmann, quirin, 1651-1689. 78, [1] p. : coat of arms. printed for the author, london : 1679. at head of title: a-z. translation of epistolarum londinensium catholica. page 26 is tightly bound in filmed copy. pages 20-35 photographed from union theological seminary library, new york, copy and inserted at end. reproduction of original in bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng kregel, john. popish plot, 1678. protestantism. 2005-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-11 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-09 ali jakobson sampled and proofread 2006-09 ali jakobson text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the general london epistle of quirinus kuhlman a christian , to the wiclef-waldenses , hussites , zuinglians , lutherans , and calvinists . being an explication of a vision and prophecy of john kregel . wherein the reformation from popery is fundamentally asserted , and the vnion of protestants convincingly urged : together with a postscript relating to the present popish plot. translated from the latine copy , printed at rotterdam , in may 1679. london , printed for the author . 1679. the prophecy of john kregel , the 12th of january 1626. concerning the present application of the vials to the state of the reformed churches . ● . and as the voice spake unto me , at the same instant a very plain church was built , which had six steeples all of one form . and out of the church issued forth a pleasant and clear transparent river , out of which gods faithful ones did drink ; but some troubled the waters before they drank . write down what i speak unto thee , and nothing else , thus saith the lord ; this church is the vine in which the lords faithful ones do labour , whose foundation was laid in the last days , concerning which the lord saith : and the gospel of the kingdom of christ shall be preached through the whole world , for a testimony unto them , and then shall the end come . this church is built and re-built in the last days of the world. 3. the first steeple began to be built by the people towards the west ; in the kingdom of england , and its builder was john wiclef a good man and fearing god. 4. the second was built in a countrey towards the east , ( bohemia ) and the builders of it were two men fearing god , john hvs and jerome of pragve , who shed their blood ; neither loved they their lives unto death : and their followers enlarged and carried on this building until three days were fulfilled . 5. the third steeple was built by a people towards the west , and its builder was vlric zvinglivs . he enlarged the vineyard , and the fourth day began , when the number of years from the birth of christ was 1505. 6. the fourth was built by a people of the north , and its builder was martin lvther , an experienced man , fearing god , and very eloquent . he built the church , to the great wonder of many , and spread the same through germany . 7. the fifth steeple again , was built by a people towards the west , and its builder was calvin . he built the church in france and the neatherlands , in dangerous places : for as in dangerous places men are obliged to build with great care , so was this church built , and the building advanced against the will of all the wicked . 8. the sixth steeple shall be built by a people towards the east , and its builders will be all preachers and teachers , fearing god , these shall begin to build this church a-new , and re-build the same from sea to sea. now as all builders must be proved , so shall also these teachers and leaders be proved by the cross and suffering . and this church is a-building , and shall be wholly finished the sixth and last day . for as god built heaven and earth in six days ; so likewise the church of god shall be built in six days , and shall have rest the seventh day . kvhlman his fulfilling and explication of the fifth section of the fore-going prophecy , written by him at smirna in natolia , in october 1678. the fourth day is one of those mentioned , rev. 11. v. 11. in which the two witnesses and prophets ( viz. the orthodox teachers of the old and new scripture ) suffered martyrdom : and they are the same with 42 lunar months , which makes 1176 years , thus : one day is 336 years . two days 672 years . half a day 168 years . as the angelical revelation of kotterus doth expresly declare , chap. 10 v. 34. twelve months are one time , four and twenty are two times , and six are half a time : which according to the course of the moon make three years , and near an half more ; and so are they three days and an half . but according to longer time ( 28 years being reckoned for one month ) this one time , two times , and half a time , are thus to be numbered : one time is 336 years , two times 672 , and half a time 168 ; which being added together make 1176. in this time the treader-down will have power , and afterwards he shall be converted . which things being thus laid for a foundation , it most clearly appears , that the two witnesses were raised to life again in the year 1674 ; and that the 11th and 12th verses of the 11th of the revelations are now fulfilling . and it was by impulse of the holy spirit ( as was before prophesied ) that my book printed the same year at amsterdam and leyden , had the title of neu-begeistert ( new-spirited ) because in the said writing all the teachers of scripture began to appear with a new spirit and life : moreover , after that time the first foundation was laid in the east , for the conversion and overthrow of the down-treaders . the first day therefore began in the year of christ 498 ; the second 834 , the third day 1170 , the fourth day 1505 ; the half of which must needs be elapsed in the year 1674. a general epistle to the wiclef-waldenses , hussites , zuinglians , lutherans and calvinists . 1. to the pastors , sheep and lambs of the churches of the five first angels of the seven , which have the seven last plagues , quirinus kuhlman ( called a christian , not by man , but by christ , and their brother , and of all those who glorifie god , and his only begotten son jesus christ , in whatsoever ceremony or language ) heartily wisheth the first love , and unanimous concord , to flee with the greatest haste out of babylon . 2. most beloved , the present applying of the revelation , wherein i joyn you wiclef-waldenses , hussites , zuinglians , lutherans and calvinists together , will seem strange and wonderful unto you ; yet more wonderful my wishing you to flee out of babylon ; whereby i declare you have not yet fully rejected all that is of babylon : but most of all wonderful , will appear to you , the title of brethren , which i give to you , and all that fear god , without any modern respect . 3. my applying of the revelation will justly seem wonderful to you , when ye shall see that one god called you all ( though at divers times ) to one work , and withal consider your horrid wranglings , bitterness , and condemning of one another ; as well as your open wars , offences and proceedings against one another . 4. my wish to you to flee out of babylon will most justly appear yet more wonderful to you , because ye believe your selves long since to have left it , in shaking off the papal yoak , whereas here you will hear that you are yet in babylon , and that that saying , go out of her my people , belongs to you . 5. the title of brethren , this will seem most wonderful ; because ye have esteemed all those ( though of the same denomination with you ) who have only differed from your way and mode , not as brethren , but as enemies ; not thinking them worthy of burial when dead , and defameing them for damned wretches when alive : and much more have you done this to those who have quite cast off your denomination , or set up articles contrary to yours ; whereas now you shall learn from the scripture , to your shame and confusion , that ye have done all these injuries to no other than your own brethren . 6. for all the secrets of scripture , hid for so many ages , shall be daily opened before the eyes of all the world ; and the fore-play of the last judgment will be seen in the sixth general judgment , which is now a carrying on by the present wars . 7. for not onely did your five angels ( whose remainders ye are ) pour forth the vials of the wrath of god upon the earth ; but the sixth angel also followed them with the prophets , wise men , and scripture-learned , and will follow them so long , until that terrible war of turks and tartars ( so fatal to the whole world ) have fully opened to the seventh angel , the gate to the general reformation of all kingdoms , which is to make way for the thousand years paradisical reign of the saints . 8. for all the fore-praised reformers , were fore-runners of the reign of christ upon earth ( which is the lost life of paradise ) are so still , and will be so , though they know it not themselves ; who , as oft as they went about to judge of things to come , so oft they pass'd the bounds of their calling , because those things to come were to be attained in a riper age , than that to which they had yet attained . 9. for the reformation hath seven ages , corresponding to those of a man ; and there is as great a difference to be found amongst the reformers , as is between an infant , a boy , a youth , a young man , a man , an old man , and one that is decrepit . this one line is a key to the signature of the past , present and future christendom , and will most lively decypher your mistakes to you , my most dear brethren . 10. the outward reformed church ( for at this time i shall be silent concerning the inward reformed church , and the ages of its seven angels sounding forth the everlasting gospel ) was an infant under john wiclef , and the waldenses , a boy under john hvs , a youth under vlric zvinglivs , grew to a young man under martin lvther , became a man under calvin , and doth draw unperceivedly toward old age under the prophets , wise men , and scripture-learned , favoured with an extraordinary divine call ; whom they , who have not yet reached their old age , have , do , and shall , yet for a while , despise and contemn . 11. it s true , that wiclef , hus , zuinglius , luther , and calvin , were chosen by a true call , to promote the work of god against antichrist ( i mean the pope of rome ) yet were they only furnished with such a knowledge as the age wherein they lived required , beyond which they could not raise themselves . 12. that great and wonderful sign in heaven , was fulfilled in wiclef , in the state and degree of an infant , in hvs , in that of a boy , in zvinglivs , of a youth or stripling ; in lvther , of a young man ; in calvin , in the state of manhood ; in the prophets , wisemen , and scripture-learned , in that of old age. and wiclef had the first plague to pour forth , hvs the second , zvinglivs the third , lvther the fourth , calvin the fifth , the prophets , wisemen , and scripture-learned the sixth ; and their successors shall have the seventh to pour forth . the seven last plagues , because in them is finished the wrath of god. for then the seventh day of the world hath found its beginning , and the six days of labour are ended , when the reign of christ ( the prefiguring type of eternal rest ) is come . 13. o pope of rome ! the fall of thy antichristian state , was the restauration of true christendom , and they were raised by god , whom thou hast accounted hereticks , even wiclef , hvs , zvinglivs , lvther , and calvin ; who came out of the temple of the tabernacle of witness in heaven cloathed with pure and white shining linnen , and girded about their paps with golden girdles . 14. o king without a queen ! the present fall of thy kingdom is the restauration of the true reign of christ ; and christopher kotterus , christina poniatovia , nicholas drabicius , and all such like , are prophets of god , receiving together with the foresaid garment , the golden vials of their predecessors wiclef , hvs , zvinglivs , lvther , and calvin , full of the wrath of god , who lives for ever and ever . 15. o god of this world ! the approaching fall of thy vicegerency , will be the restauration of the heavenly vicegerency ; and the paradisical communion of saints , shall immediately follow the earthly communion of saints , representing one sheep-fold under the seventh angel ; though subject as yet to many frailties , from which the paradisical communion will be altogether exempt . 16. hence it is that these seven reformations are called the seven last plagues , and every plague is so much the greater , as it is later ; which the experience of the past reformations do abundantly witness . for during these seven plagues , the temple was filled with smoak , from the glory of god and from his power ; and no man was able to enter into the temple , until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished . o words of greatest importance ! pointing out to us the whole defect of our age ; thus i see in the spirit , it hath been , is and will be , and still the worse , the nearer the end . 17. every age hath its excellence and weakness , both common in the proverbs of all nations ; and the same you will find in the several ages of the reformation , if you mind it . the praise of infancy is innocence , its stain is misery ; and the singleness of manners in a child is spoil'd by his untowardliness and weakness ; the vigor of youth is stained with fickleness and inconstancy ; and the great courage of young men is marr'd by their rashness ; the strength of manhood , by their want of moderation ; the gravity of aged men , by self-love ; and the perfection of a full old age , by cowardliness . 18. apply to your selves , my brethren , these praises and reproaches of the several ages , which ( will ye , nill ye ) by the following discourse you will find in your selves . in the mean time we shall follow the text of the revelation , and all along apply it to you , that you may have the more reason to know your selves and your predecessors . 19. peter wald a citizen of lions , by his reproving the errors of the church of rome , was the first by whom the reformed church conceived ; and in his time preparation was made for the pouring forth of the seven vials , which the roman beast did vainly endeavour to prevent by so many bloody wars . for a great voice ( according to scripture prophecy ) was heard out of the temple , saying to the seven angels , go and pour forth the vials of the wrath of god upon the earth . 20. and the first angel went , in the person of john wiclef , and poured forth his vial , in teaching that the pope was antichrist , and that purgatory , the worshipping of saints and images , transubstantiation and indulgences , were his contrived inventions , upon the earth of universities and monasteries , in which the beast doth dwell , which ascendeth up out of the earth . 21. and there was an evil and sore boil , because the before suppressed doctrine of the waldenses was now revived and rectified , upon men , academicks and monks , who had the mark of the beast , the popes academical and monastical institutions , orders , and dignities , and that worshipped his image , the body of the canon law , compiled to maintain the popes vicedeity against the scriptures . 22. thus the reformed church brought forth the child it had conceived by wald , and the first hill of the papal throne was levell'd ; for wiclef being banished out of england , by divine providence inlightened all bohemia ( the pathmos of the waldenses ) which was the full effusion of the first vial upon the earth . 23. the praise of this first reformation was its innocence , for it was a most just thing ; its stain and reproach was ( not from it self , but from the genius of the time and age ) misery , even cries and tears , by reason of the antichristian yoak ; because infancy was not capable of any greater perfection . 24. view your selves , my brethren the waldenses , in this looking-glass , and take notice of this first vial compared to infancy , that you may with the more clearness come to know both your selves and your brethren ; that so you may together with them , co-operate to the total ruin of the pa●al power , which is now to be accomplished under the sixth vial. 25. the persecution acted by the duke of savoy in the year 1655 , and for ever to be detested for so many frightful instances of unparallell'd cruelty , will give the pope his deaths wound ; and that in this the prophet spake true , the event will shortly declare : the very remembrance of which persecution hath oft inflamed my mind ( in the strength given me by god ) undauntedly to promote the down-fall o● the cursed pope and all his councellors employ'd by him , for the propagating of the faith , and the rooting out of gods instruments . for as the beginning and foundation of the outward reformation was first laid by wald , so from this massacre of the waldenses ( which happened in the fifth year of my infancy ) the fatal foundation was laid of the outward ruin of the papal seat. 26. from the waldenses , who scattered their seed through germany , france , bohemia , italy , croatia , bulgaria , and dalmatia , under the cross of christ , wiclef was born in england , being the infant of reformation , who soon after happily grew to be a lad in bohemia , under the blessing of the most high. for the second angel poured forth , in the person of john hus , being confirmed by the writings of wiclef , his vial of the doctrines of wiclef , and communion under both kinds , upon the sea of the roman-papal german empire . 27. and it became like the blood of one that is dead , john hus and jerome of prague , being ( contrary to the faith and safe conduct given them by a synod of 346 archbishops and bishops , 564 doctors , and 1600 dukes and nobles ) burnt alive . at which synod these cursed doctrins were confirmed , that faith was not to be kept with hereticks , and also , that ( notwithstanding christ both instituted and administred the supper in both kinds ) lay people were to be deprived of the cup ; and every living soul , retaining christs true institution of the supper in both kinds , died ; being involved in wars upon account of the forementioned breach of faith , in the sea of the whole empire ; every one being forced to sight , either for the truth or against it : both hussites and papal imperialists , being now in arms. 28. now as soon as the reformed church grew to be a lad , the vice also which is proper to that age , began to appear in it ; for the hussites grew so intractable and untowardly by their intestine hatred and dissentions ( being divided into calixtines and taborites ) that they fell upon one another with no less fury than they did upon the pope ; so that in this sense also it was true , that every living soul died . 29. yet the childish simplicity which at this day is found amongst the bohemian brothers and sisters , conveighs to us the sweet odor of this second reformation , notwithstanding that all bohemia groans under the cursed papal yoak . rejoyce ye hussites , my brethren ! rejoyce ! for i bring you glad tidings ; your countrey shall be restored to you after a few weeks , according to a divine , not humane account . o learn to know the time of your visitation , and put off the untowardliness and weakness of children , and instead thereof put on their simplicity of christian manners . 30. the whole world stood amazed at the second angels pouring forth his vial upon the sea , for almost an hundred years together , in the overthrows given by the hussites , which were the shame of the empire , the reproach of the pope , and the wonder of all the godly ; which yet were onely preparatory for what was to follow . 31. for the third angel poured forth , through ulric zuinglius , his vial of papal errors , upon the rivers of the rhine , and upon the fountains of water of switzerland and suevia . and it became blood , by reason of the civil war of switzerland , which was fatal indeed to zuinglius himself , who was therein mortally wounded ; but much more fatal to the papists , who had their blood spilt by the sword themselves had first drawn . concerning which john saith ; and i heard the angel of the waters saying , righteous art thou , o lord , who art , and who was , and the holy one ! that thou hast thus judged , because they have shed the blood of thy saints and prophets , thou hast also given them blood to drink , for they are worthy : and i heard another voice from the altar saying , yea lord god the almighty , true and righteous are thy judgments . 32. o bloody youth of the reformation ! not alone terrible by reason of the wars which grew more bloody every day than other : for it was most bloody to our fellow brethren , because of their ficklenes ; whereby their liveliness and vigor failed , before it failed , for a plague to the enemies of christ , who follow him in words but not in deed . 33. for almost at the very self-same time , the fourth angel poured forth , through martin luther , his vial , by declaring that the pope of rome was the great antichrist , and the great whore of the revelation , upon the sun of the roman-german empire , being the head of the church of rome , and of ten kingdoms , and consequently upon the city of rome it self , who calls her self the sun. 34. and it was given to him , viz. the roman empire ; to scorch , with a very great fear of things to come : men , all under the papal power , , with fire , of the religious wars , as well those which were between the protestants and the emperor , as that between the emperor and the pope . and the men were scorched with a great scorching , whilst the emperors general , having taken rome , treated the pope and his creatures with the greatest insolence , and the greater part of the german empire siding with the protestants , did strike a terror into the emperor , and those other kings which still adher'd to the pope . and they blasphemed the name of god , who had power over these plagues , by ascribing this reformation to men , and not to god , from whom they were sent : and they repented not to give the glory to him , but persisted to establish the popes antichristian inventions . 35. zuinglius had scarce poured forth the third vial , but luther comes and pours forth the fourth , and the difference between them was the same , which is between a youth and a young man ; so that no wonder if they drew all mens eyes upon them ; for zuinglius with great force evinc'd that the pope was antichrist , but luther with greater : the former was indued with an extraordinary vigour and liveliness , the later with a most undaunted courage : and they carried on successfully the work of reformation , as long as they turned the edge of their endeavour only against papal traditions . 36. but when they began to write concerning the mysteries of the christian faith , without the inward and outward light of the holy spirit ( according to the comprehension of their own reason , from the dead letter of scripture ) there presently arose amongst them those lamentable controversies and contentions about the holy mystery of the body and blood of christ received in the lords supper , by means of which , this one tree became first divided into two contrary branches , as it happened in the old testament . 37. for the first and second spirit mostly joyning it self with the fourth , and the third with the fifth , have produced two capital sects , and together with those two , innumerable others , which at length , by means of the sixth spirit , shall be either brought to one sheep-fold in the seventh spirit , or else be utterly rooted out . but which are those seven spirits of which you here speak ? ( for i perceive you 'll ask this question . ) they are the seven spirits which are before the throne of god , proceeding from god by an eternal emanation , whose properties are most clearly to be seen in these seven last plagues ; insomuch as they do abundantly reveal the signature of the whole reformation past , present , and to come , to the inlightened sons of god : concerning which ye have already read something revealed in the fore-going application of the seven ages of mans life , and will read more in that which follows . 38. the switzers , and many dwelling about the rhine , followed zuinglius , whereas luther's doctrine took most in saxony , with his own countreymen ; and zuinglius conferring with luther at marpurg , but not agreeing , because luther took those words , this is my body , to be understood corporally and really ; but zuinglius significatively , at parting they promised to bear with one another in mutual charity , without coming to any thorow union and agreement . 39. this was the spring of the tears of the godly ; from hence arose those sacramentary wars , as they are pleased to name them ; and in that name retain the mark of romanism 666. o zuinglians ! o lutherans ! my brethren ! hear these true words . zuinglius was fickle , and luther rash in his contention about the supper ▪ the matter not deserving such disputes , much less those bloody wars , by which you now distinguish your sects from each other ! you have made your love-feast in imitation of the bloody roman feasts ; and know that as long as ye continue thus , ye have , are , and will be seduced by the devil , the father of lies and hatred . 40. the words of christ , this is my body , this is my blood , are to be understood concerning his coelestial body and blood , not concerning his earthly body and blood , which hung upon the cross : under his earthly , visible , body , his invisible , heavenly , body , hung upon the wood of the cross ; and under the appearance of his outward blood , his invisible , heavenly blood was shed ; neither do our souls stand in need of the mortal body or blood , but of the immortal and new body , which springs from christs immortal body , that therein it may become partaker of christ , and member of his true , every where present , eternal , and divine body . 41. the mouth receives bread and wine , which it sends into the belly as other common meat ; but the word , this is my body , this is my blood , proceeding from the eternal body and blood of christ , and containing the said heavenly body and blood , is put on by the soul as its new body , which it lost by the fall ( yet lying hid in the lapsed body ) that so when this adamical body is broken , it may arise in christs new eternal body . 42. for jesus christ with his heavenly body ( which was hid under his outward ) hath , doth , and shall at once , altogether , and always fill the angelical world , notwithstanding his comprehensible , ●●●ane form , which appears now in the same proportion in heaven , in which he walked here upon the earth . i speak this by experience , for i my self ( though a poor , miserable , and afflicted man ) have seen christ appearing in our earthly form , and yet at the same time filling all ; and with these very eyes i saw all the saints appearing in his body , who yet were every one of them distinct and divers from his humane body . 43. see here , i pray you , my dearest brethren , what hitherto ye have not seen ; it is the letter that kills you , the spirit of which alone doth quicken . the devil doth extreamly envy men the body and blood of christ , because christ could not have left us a more precious treasure than that of his body and blood ; which is the reason why the enemy ( whilst zuinglius and luther were contending together ) did sow such tares in the matter of the lords supper , insomuch as the mischief done thereby can never be sufficienly expressed . 44. o ye zuingliaens and lutherans ! learn hence who your zuinglius and lutherans were , and with all how rashly you have carried it toward your brethren , abusing the divine call of zuinglius and luther . o lutherans ! lutherans ! how are ye degenerated ? ye have no reason to be so puft up with luthers call , because nothing that is perfect appears during the seven plagues , much less under the fourth , which is yet subject to great frailties . ye have framed articles according to your own good pleasure , and have established your own opinions , to the prejudice of truth , and in so doing have brought the pope , and lateinus 666 again upon the stage , though in another dress ; and alas ! have only increased the number of wolves and bears for to devour the flesh of the pope . 45. o ye lutherans , my brethren ! i observe that the modern prophets , in an hidden parabolical way , do attribute far worse things to you , than they do to your brethren , whom ye have condemned . o consider that youth is like wax , most easie to yield to vice , but as hard as stone to relent and turn from it ! consider it i say ; and now shew your selves as easie to receive the day of truth , as ye have been to admit the darkness of your most antichristian prejudices . 46. the manly age of the calvinists ( who are so hateful to you ) will shew you , that you are the youthful age of the reformed church , and will unteach you your hatred , caused by the envy of the devil . luther the angel of the fourth vial , was the plague of the pope of rome throughout all the german empire , and the several kingdoms belonging to it , whilst he lived , and dying will be the death of that son of perdition , in the three following angels . 47. for the fifth angel poured forth , by john calvin his vial , not only rejecting the pope , but likewise all papal ceremonies , images , rites , and institutions , upon the throne of the beast , france , being the inheritance of the most christian king , and eldest son of the pope , and where for 74 years together the pope kept his residence . and his kingdom was darkened , because of the parisian massacre , and the kings terrible end ; and they gnawed their tongues , because of the unhappy success of the accursed league , for pain , for the fruitless pains they had taken ; because the blood of the martyrs did make the church to grow and thrive the better . and they blasphemed the god of heaven , when they saw the progress the reformation made in the low countreys , upon their revolting from the king of spain ; because of their pains , taken in the spanish inquisition , and tyranical government , and their sores , of so many overthrows received from the persecuted french and dutch. and they repented not , because they did not attribute these signal instances of the divine vengeance unto god ; of their works , their persecutions , massacres and cruelties committed under pretence of defending the christian faith. 48. sure enough the church of the fifth vial was arrived to mans estate , which grew up under the pressure of such horrid persecutions , and was never purer than when it counted most martyrs . it was this church held forth most lively instances of patience and humility , and is therefore to be praised before others for her strength and fortitude , though at the same time to be blamed also before others , because of her immoderation in the point of the divine predestination and call to salvation . for this only error , so big with many gross errors , was that dangerous rock , which whilst the luh●eran church endeavours to avoid , she was driven upon that most antichristian hatred against calvin and the reformed church , for his sake , forgetting christian charity and brotherly kindness , wherein this later church far excelled her . 49. the greatest error of all the reformed churches , hath , is , and will be , the vain perswasion , whereby they think themselves happy in the knowing and owning of this or that article , and that all who do not know , oppose , or condemn the same , are damned . 50. know o man ! it is not knowledge can make thee blessed , nor ignorance that can damn thee , but a righteous , or unrighteous life ; the former of which consists in loving of god and your neighbour , the other in hating them . what if it pleased god to try thee , o lutheran church , with this error , whether thou wouldst prefer the life and love of christ , before subtle disputing about opinions ? how wilt thou blush at the last judgment , when thou shalt see many condemned ; whom thou hast blessed , and many blessed whom thou hast condemned ? these are no slight words , but well worth your serious consideration . 51. but as for you , o calvinists or ( if you would rather ) reformed , quicken your attentions , open your understandings , that you may see your error in its very root . st. paul in his epistle to the romans saith , we know that all things work together for good , to them that love god , even to those who are called according to his purpose . for whom he did fore know , he also did praeterminate to be conformed to the image of his son , that he might be the first-born amongst many brethren . now whom he did praeterminate them he also called , and whom he called , them he also justified , and whom he justified , them he also glorified . 52. the apostle saith well , whom he did fore-know , them he also did praeterminate , placing gods fore-knowledge before his praetermination , not whom he did praeterminate , them he also fore-knew , putting praetermination before fore-knowledge , as ye calvinists do , when you expound this place , not understanding the infinite difference there is between the one and the other . again , these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , are thus to be rendered , whom he did fore-know , them he also did praeterminate : and the compilers of dictionaries seduce us , when they render the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , praedecrevit , antedecrevit ( he hath or did fore-decree . ) and when they render the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( which properly signifies praeterminavit , he did preterminate ) improperly praedecrevit , praefinivit , praedestinavit ( he did or hath praedecreed , praedeterminate , praedestinate ) and have in so doing made way for this gross popular error . 53. for this fore-knowledge and praetermination of the most high god , is the most just ballance , wherein your common error is weighed : for hence it appears , that god did fore-know us from eternity , and from this fore-knowledge did praeterminate all of us ; but not praeterminate us that he might fore-know us . it is certain that in god fore-knowledge and praetermination are , beyond all humane comprehension , together and at once , but not so in us , in whom fore-knowledge and praetermination are two different things , as all humane actions are . god fore-knew the fall of adam , and from this fore-knowledge he did praeterminate the whole work of redemption ; but god did not praeterminate the fall of adam , that from this praetermination he might fore-know the whole work of redemption , which is contrary both to scripture and nature . 54. these few words ( if you have rightly understood me ) my most dear brethren , do unanswerably determine all your controversies about this matter ; neither do they ascribe , or prescribe any thing to man ( because all stands most freely in the will of god ) and yet do not destroy mans free-will neither . hence will appear how unprofitable and idle a thing your reason is , by which you have endeavoured to deduce gods eternal decree from the scriptures , especially from the writings of st. paul , and will be a burning light to dispel your own and your brethrens darkness , with which ye have plagued your selves and others , and thereby cast your selves into the greatest dangers . 55 ye have shewed your selves to be of manly age , o calvinists , by your adding weight to the youthful age of reformation , and by being authors of the last general sect ; but at the same time you have also had manly vices , whereby you have out vied those who were before you . 56. you have had the synod of dort , where the churches of britain , the palatinate , brandenburgh , hassia , zuitzerland , wetteravia , geneva , bremen , and embden , beheld the unity of the belgick churches , but such a unity as was not yet pure , but stained with many antichristian proceedings and tenets , full of prejudice and opposition against the divine light ; and instead of correcting , corrupting the interpretation of the holy scriptures , by adding to them without the dictate of the holy spirit ; yet was it for all this , in some respect worthy of the fifth vial. 57. my brethren of the reformation , ye have had an humane national synod , o that ye might shortly have a general and divine council ( which must needs be ) wherein not onely you and the lutherans may be fully united ( having first laid aside whatsoever is amiss in either of you ) but also a door may be opened for the turks , persians , and tartars to enter into christendom ! o israel and juda ! how have you rent our selves from one another ? and continue yet to rend your selve● daily ? 58. ye lutherans , of whom i am born , ye i say , are israelites , and the reformed , whom ye have rejected , are the tribe of juda , god himself ( whom ye cannot resist ) affirming it ▪ hear therefore , o israel and juda , the wor● of the lord , whom ye have forsaken ! how long will you build up a verbal christendom , and destroy and pull down that which is real ? how long will ye despise the prophets sent to you by god himself ? have ye not yet long enough doated upon the whore of babylon ? or are ye resolved to perish with her ? one sect after another grows up amongst you , and are all ready to devour you : and the sixth judgement threatens not onely the pope of rome , but the wolves and bears also , who have been his devourers . how long , being blinded , will you draw down upon your selves the sixth vial , part of which is already poured forth , as a fore-boding sign and figure of what is to follow . the 1st . year . the 1st .. month. the 1st . four weeks . the 1st . twenty eight days . 59. for the sixth angel , poured forth through the fore-runners of the most high , the prophets , wise-men , and scripture-learned , his vial , by declaring that the ruin of the dragon , leopard-bear , and lamb-dragon is come , in this sixth judgment , and that the eastern monarch , who is to execute the same , shall be converted , and that the lost tribes of the jews , shall ( to the great commotion of the whole world ) of a sudden appear , and assist at the fore-said execution . vpon the great river euphrates of the asiatick , as well as european babylon . the 2d . year . the 2d . month. the 2d . four weeks . the 2d . twenty eight weeks . 60. and its water was dried up , by a daily clearer understanding and fulfilling of prophecies , whereupon many leaving the papal and sectarian babylon , did return to the one true christendom , owning no other name but that of christians , joyning themselves unanimously ( according to their different states ) to one of the three armies of god , viz. either to that with the steel , or to that with the golden , or to that with the leaden sword. that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared , especially the kings of natolia ( the lesser asia ) which are the turks , and next of the persians , tartars and jews , which in another respect will be further fulfilled under the seventh vial , after the sixth is past . the 3d. year . the 3d. month. the 3d. four weeks . the 3d. twenty eight days . 61. and i saw [ come ] out of the mouth of the dragon , of the roman-germ in empire , which from augustus caesar , borrowed the name of augustus , as well as that of dragon ( for the latins tell us that his mother att●a conceived him by lying with a dragon ) and out of the mouth of the beast , of the roman papal kingdom , long since receiving his power from the imperial dragon ; and out of the mouth of the false prophet , which are the universities and monasteries , three unclean spirits , viz. politicians ( or men concerned in the government of the state ) ecclesiasticks and philosophers ( or private men ) all which three orders our modern jesuits do comprehend , like unto frogs , because they leave the springs of the holy scriptures , and hide themselves in the stinking ditches of heathenish phylosophy and law-knowledge , croaking whilst the summer of mans favour lasts , but being silent in the autumne and winter of tribulation , and are not able to indure the light of a candle in darkness . the 4th year . the 4th month. the 4th four weeks . the 4th twenty eight days . 62. for they are the spirits of devils doing wonders , being pourd forth in the wrath of god upon church-men , lawyers , physicians , philologers and philosophers , who despise the truth ; being full of falseness , pride , covetousness , and envy ; and who by their monstrous wickedness , blaspheme god in their universities and monasteries ; which go forth as embassadors or envoys , or as academicks , under what form soever , whether of states-men , church-men , or private persons ; unto the kings of the earth , that is , of europe , and of the whole world , of asia and affrica ; to gather them together , as well by their words as by their writings , in opposition to this sixth judgment , and the reformation of christendom , by the conversion of the jews and turks . to the battle of the great day , even of the sixth general judgement , of god the almighty ; who will as certainly , to the astonishment of the world , accomplish the same ( as soon as the 1260 years of the roman dragon are expired ) as he hath already certainly fulfilled the five fore-going judgments . the 5th . year . the 5 month. the 5th . four weeks . the 5th . twenty eight days . 63. behold i come as a thief , the roman babylonish whore not believing , nor so much as thinking of it ; because it will be at a time , when ( if ever before ) she will be guarded with armies , and power ; and when being deluded by the persuasions of her flatterers , she shall firmly expect the subjection not only of the reformed churches , but of mahumetanisme also . blessed is he that watcheth in the outward inward life of christ , that he be not seduced by the whores felicity , and keepeth his garments , which he hath once received under the vials of reformation , that he may not walk naked , by apostatizing from the reformed churches , because of the tryals by god laid upon them ; and they see his shame , his temporary and changing faith , which seeks the good things of christ , but not his cross . 64. and he gathered them together . upon the expiring of a time , times , and half a time , into a place called in the hebrew tongue armageddon , to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which the greek renders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , tahanach upon the waters of meghiddo , a place famous for the overthrow of the canaanites , after their twenty years tyranny and oppressing of the jews : for then the threefold papal army , opposing it self against the three armies of god , will at length appear to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 harmageddon an unfortunate troop , and accursed of god ; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hhermagheddon their army a curse , which shall pierce through all the members of the papal body , according to what the rabbins deliver concerning the force and efficacy of this word ; or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hhormagheddon , their army hhorma , which was a city totally overthrown by the israelites : and therefore shall not always be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 armageddon , a treacherous army , and an holy league designed for the ruin of the reformed churches . the 6th . year . the 6th . month. the 6th . four weeks . the 6th . twenty eight days . 65. neither is the sixth plague poured forth alone , but the seventh meets it , and is poured forth together with it , even as the third and fourth adolescence and youth , did meet together , so also do concur the sixth and seventh vial , old age and decrepid age : the said seventh vial being already poured forth during the sixth vial , and shall yet daily be poured forth with it , until the full accomplishment of the sixth general judgement shall put an end to this sixth vial. for the seventh angel poured forth , by the restorer of true christianity , and his eastern and nothern associates , his vial , by putting an end to the four monarchies , and by founding the universal christian kingdom , into the air of the whole earth , whether known , or unknown , and of all men whether of the highest , mean , or lowest condition . the 7th . year . the 7th . month. the 7th . four weeks . the 7th . twenty eight days . 66. and there went forth a great voice , of the universal effusion of the spirit , out of the temple of heaven , from the throne , of the heavenly reign of christ restored upon this our globe , saying with the voice of jesus christ himself , now appearing and working in a manner which hitherto hath been strange and accustomed . it is done what was to be done ; the sixth judgment is accomplished according to my prophets , the whole mystery of god being now also to be fulfilled . 67. and there were voices of the greatest forebodings , and thunders of most vehement commotions ; and lightnings of most quick and sudden actions . the 8th year . the 8th month. the 8th four weeks . the 8th twenty eight days . 68. and there was a great earth-quake of uuniversal changes amongst all nations , and their conversion to the christian faith , such as was not since men were upon the earth , so mighty and so great an earth-quake , because jesus of nazareth king of the jews was owned and acknowledged under the whole heaven , to be the true son of god , and the three-one god began to be worshiped by j●phet , sem , and ham. the 9th year . the 9th month. the 9th four vveeks . the 9th twenty eight days . 69. and the great city , the universal babylon of all kingdoms , by reason of so great commotions , was divided into three parts , and the cities of the nations , all idolatrous kingdoms , fell , the universal divine reformation advancing happily . the 10th year . the 10th month. the 10th four vveeks . the 10th twenty eight days . 70. and babylon the great , which from the fall of adam , the tower of babel and confusion of languages hath been propagated through all men , came in rememberance before god , as it also happened at the building of the tower of babel , to give unto her the cup of the vvine of the fierceness of his wrath , by the universal destruction of all confusions and falsities , all divided languages being reduc'd to that one , which was lost in the adamical and babylonish confusion . 71. and every island of particular government and worship , with estrangement from others , fled away , nothing but the universal truth being now promoted in all places , at the command of god , and the mountains of opposing and resisting powers , were not found , because god by his wars did root out all that were disobedient . 72. and there fell a great hail , of the wrath of god , of the weight of a talent out of heaven , not from humane instruments stirr'd up in the wrath of god , upon the men , who were disobedient to gods commands , and the men blasphemed god , like unto pharaoh , and the israelites in the wilderness , because of the plague of the hail ; for the plague thereof was exceeding great , as being intollerable to adamical men , and indeed the heaviest of all plagues , which the holy spirit in other places of scripture hath more largely declared and discovered . 73. for when it shall be fulfilled , and they were both cast into the lake of fire burning with brimstone ; then also will that be fulfilled which is here spoken concerning the great hail , and soon after also will be fulfilled that which is spoke concerning the devil , and he bound him a thousand years , which most desirable time will put an end to all plagues . 74. the sixth plague shall destroy the papal antichrist , who hath already reigned above a thousand years by succession , the last of which shall then kill himself ; but the seventh plague shall cast the personal antichrist ( of whom the papists have more knowledge than the reformed , bating their preiudices in favour of their own antichrist ) alive , together with his false prophet into the lake of brimstone , during a thousand years ; who because there are only a few months allotted for his reign , is no other than covertly hinted at in scripture , under the notion of the roman antichrist . 75. hear these things o reformed house of israel and juda ! and wonder at , or rather ponder your blindness ! for you will find that this my explication of the sixth and seventh vial doth so much agree and harmonize with the writings of the modern , divinely inlightned prophets , wisemen , and scripture-learned , that you will be forced , whether ye will or no , to confess that they have left us and you a more particular explication , and a fuller and clearer revelation of the revelation , which they received from god. 76. my dear brethren ! hitherto you have been mistaken in your blind zeal , and being loaded with prejudices , have rejected those who were sent to you from god , should you go on to do so against your conscience and knowledge , how dangerous would it prove to your souls ? 77. o lutheran israel ! god was pleased to send to thee at one time three men who were furnished by the holy ghost ( far beyond thy comprehension ) with the true gift of prophecy , wisdom , and scripture-learning ; the prophet was kotterus , the wise-man behmen , the scripture-learned engelbrecht , whom thou hast regarded as israel of old did the messengers which were sent unto them , to thine own great damage . hast thou despised them ? despise them so no more ; seeing them to be sent by god , but think them worthy your serious reading again and again , and amend your errors and antichristianisms , as you are commanded by god in them , and others of their fellow servants . 78. and thou house of juda ! god hath chosen thee in thy king frederick the fifth , with whom he might take his delight , speaking all those things concerning a man of the fifth reformed church individually , which were to happen to the whole reformed church under the sixth and seventh vial ; and again concerning a man of the antichristian church ferdinand the second , revealing all things contrary . hath thy ignorance hindered thee from understanding this ? now understand it : examining them diligently , whom hitherto because of the riddle of their prophetick stile ( as yet either lost or unknown ) being seduced by some of thine own party , thou hast undervalued and neglected . 79. pray what is more common in our ordinary way of speaking and writing than such expressions as these ? the king of france dies not , rudolf is yet alive , king charles of england is not dead yet , julius caesar flourisheth still . and why so ? because though a prince be mortal , yet in his children and successors he becomes immortal and eternal . and what is more common in scripture prophecies , than to have a thing fore-told of one and fulfilled in another ? 80. frederick the fifth is not yet dead , not ferdinand the second , the first lives in the elect of the reformed church ; the later in the sons of the antichristian whore. frederick indeed was mortal , but the church he was of , immortal and though ferdinand be dead , yet the papal church is not so yet , in whom ferdinand is yet to be found . as long as god shall have any in the reformed church , who endeavour the conversion or ruin of the papal , to the end that the propagation of christianity amongst the nations may be no longer obstructed , so long will frederick yet be fighting for god against the pope , and be king of bohemia , which was the mother of the infancy and child-hood of the reformed church , and consequently of the whole church of god , which shall at length arrive to its full and perfect age. and on the contrary , as long as the devil shall have his ministers , who revere the papal blasphemies , instead of the word of god , and do in any manner persecute the truth , so long will ferdinand continue to be the bloody defender of the beast . 81. frederick doth not live in his family , which is his bodily off spring , but in his spiritual off-spring ; and though all his family should die , yet would not he . and the same may be said of ferdinand , whose bodily house is now nearer to death than ever , that it might be a figure of his spiritual house and family . frederick is dead indeed to us , but not to god ; and so likewise ferdinand ; and they shall both see the day of deliverance ; the one shall rejoyce , the other grieve and mourn ; of which ( considering the present ignorance ) it is better to be silent then to speak further . 82. this is the true key to open the greatest difficulties which are found in our modern prophets , and with the same key the mysteries of time may be unlocked , which are by so much the more truly and securely lock'd up in a most wonderful account of numbers , by how much the more dark they are to be understood . 83. what i here speak of kotterus , the same is to be applied to kregel , christina poniat via , and more especially to drabicius , who is not yet beheaded , but sounds his last trumpet with his assistant joh. amos comenius , stronger than ever . 84. they who would weaken the truth of his prophecy , urge that place concerning the end of his life in these words ; rev. 264. thou shalt go to thy rest in peace , at the age of fourscore and four , in thy own country , even the same place i have formerly nam●d to thee . the power of thy enimies shall not hurt thee , thou shalt be laid in thy grave in peace . and yet we are told that he was beheaded by the emperor the 17th of july 1671 ; after he had made a kind of recantation . again , they say that at the time of his death he was not fourscore and four years of age ; for he was born the fifth of decemb. 1588 , and accordingly was not to die till after the fifth of december 1672 , neither ( say they ) was he laid in his grave in peace in his own countrey , nor in the place which had been formerly mentioned to him . 85. but they understand these words as all the rest ; for he was indeed aged fourscore and four lunar years ( which together with lunar months , we find that our modern prophets commonly make use of in their calculations ) when he went to the rest of the martyrs in peace , in his own countrey , even hungary ; concerning which he had prophesied so much , and in the same place which the revealer had before mentioned ; rev. 212 , 213. thou shalt stand before caesar with honourable persons ; which is expresly confirmed in the sentence which was past upon him ; where he was also crowned with the first crown , rev : 129. to wit , with the crown of thorns , which was covertly intimated to him ; rev. 132. which christ at his death did bear most willingly , drabicius most unwillingly . 86. which place of his martyrdom was often afterwards mentioned unto him , though he did not understand it so , as rev. 410. i will lay a burthen upon thee , which thou wilt hardly bear ; again , rev. 429. do thou trust in me ! for they shall come to carry thee where thou hast never been , and whither thou wilt go unwillingly ; rev. 438. thou art blessed like peter , to whom also christ said , thou walkest whither thou liftest ; having before said to him , blessed art thou , rev. 538. thou shalt not see the end of all these things , because i thy god will bring thee over to my self , into the inaccessible light . do not ye observe that his approaching martyrdom was fore-told to him , especially rev. 429. formerly mentioned v. 7. where it is expresly said , i will not as yet tell thee whither thou art to go , to the end thou mayst not afflict thy self , yet shall my right hand there lead thee . 87. the power of drabicius his enemies did not hurt him , neither in respect of his second crown of prophecy , nor in respect of his third crown of glory ; and that passage , rev. 608. is to be understood concerning the second crown ; whom be not thou afraid of , as having in me an abundant protection and blessing too , which is now ready waiting for thee at breslaw , as surely as if thou saw●st it with thine own eyes . 88. for i am of breslaw , and do examine drabicius , together with kotterus , kregeln , christina , and all other witnesses of god , intending to go to new rome in the power of god , being now just upon the point of undertaking my roman journey ; and shall in gods due time , in rome it self , in the presence of the pope and emperor , expound and defend the prophets raised up by god , and that , its like , with an unusual power , to the end the two slain witnesses , viz. the regenerate sons of both scriptures , may rise more gloriously . if the pope then shall find himself furnished with the golden sword of the mouth , from the holy ghost , he will kill me with it ; but if not , the holy ghost in me shall kill the pope with the sword of the mouth , as being antichrist , devoid of the spirit , and who 's strength lies not in a spiritual , but material sword , and yet even that also shall be broke by the steel and leaden sword. 89. wherefore it is your duty , o ye lutherans and reformed , my brethren ! to lift up your heads at the news of this approaching deliverance , and having first united your selves together in a true concord and agreement , and heartily repented of your mis-deeds , to set upon the reforming of your churches , by an unanimous recantation of all your errors . 90. will you not receive the prophets ? at least receive the revelation of the scriptures you own , which doth most lively describe you and then according to the said scriptures , you will understand the praedictions of all the prophets of the sixth and seventh vial. receive the extraordinary heavenly witnesses , which for the time of a prophetical month , have been visible to you and all the inhabitants of the earth ; i speak of stars and comets , which are to all nations , as so many natural commentators upon the supernatural scriptures . 91. memorable is that comet which appeared the very self-same day wherein the orders were signed at vienna , for a reformation in my native countrey silesia , being the 19th day of decemb. 1652 , and was fore-told eight days before by drabicius ; which comet came out of the ark of noah , and did arise with us in that very place of the heavens , where noahs dove , with its olive branch is seen , and took its course directly toward that place where the famous new star of 1572 first appeared to the world. 92. memorable is that solar eclipse of the year 1654 , 12 of aug. which returned the sun its light from west to east , in the appearance of a sickle , after it had been darkened from nine of the clock till after mid-day ; which great prodigy was not onely visible to all christendom , but beyond it too , and was divinely interpreted by stephen melish in his 115 vision , as not onely concerning breslaw , but the whole world. 93. memorable was that third conjunction of the two superior planets in the fiery trigon , in 1663 , together with the preceding great conjunction of all the planets in the fiery sign sagitary , the 1st . of decemb. 1662 , a thing not to be parallell'd by any known instance of former ages . 94. yet more memorable was the comet which appeared in decemb. 1664 , which joyn'd it self with the comet which appeared about easter 1665 , near the ears of the ram , where it become the suns companion , beyond what hath been known in any former age. 95. but most memorable of all was the comet which appeared about easter 1677 , being the swift executor of all the fore-going stars , comets , and conjunctions , and the introducer of changes upon the whole world. 96. these ordinary and extraordinary witnesses , the fore-runners of the greatest alterations , though they surpass the wits of heathen astrologers , yet do they so clearly attest the change of all kingdoms , that the publick and private , written and oral conjectures of all men agree in this , that some unheard of revolution is to be expected . 97. but there is no astrologer ( of those i have seen ) whose conjectures have come nearer the truth , than the almanack writer of staden , who expresly compares the two comets of 1664 and 65 , to two who give in their evidence before a judge , and the third to a publick herald , proclaiming the sentence given in upon the fore-going evidence ; and therefore declares his opinion , that within 24 months time the work of god will be manifested , by preparing the whole roman and turkish empire for quite another war , then is now believed , which is to last till the next age , and to run over the greatest part of the whole world , and that the end of it will be , the propagation of the gospel in the east , and the return of the christian church to the place of its first rise . 98. i confess i could not read these things in an astrologer without tears , who i found had with his ordinary skill , more diligently examined these extraordinary witnesses of heaven , than those who are learned in the scripture do examine the extraordinary prophets of god , and besides determined the exact time of two years ( in which he will not be mistaken ) though at that time there was no appearance of any such thing , whilst our church-men being drown'd in the sleep of vanities , deny that ever any such things shall be , much more that within two years we shall see the beginning of them . 99. many , many of the nations which are now strangers to christianity , shall with denis the areopa●ite , own and acknowledge the approaching reign of christ , which our pharisees do reject , and our sectarian hypocrites shall not believe the destruction of the ecclesiastical jerusalem of all sects , till they feel it . 100. o ye lutherans and reformed , my most dear brethren ! you have gazed upon the comets , you have read the conjectures that have been made concerning them , which you may further inspect and judge of infallibly from the writings of the prophets , wise-men , and scripture-learned , sent to you by god ; since the fore-mentioned comets are nothing else but so many natural commentaries upon the scriptures , and their commentators christopher kotter , john kregel , herman de hude , nicholas drabits , stephen melish , christina ponialovia , and the like : and again , these are so many supernatural commentaries upon the fore-said comets ; search them both , and you 'll find the one confirm the other . 101. these comets are all witnesses of the sixth and seventh vial , which are in part already poured forth , and partly to be poured forth hereafter ; their whole time being comprehended in such a number , as contains ten years , and ten months , and 40 weeks and 280 days , and almost full 7 hours , the number ten , the number five , and a unity , and yet is but one number . if you understand it , keep it to your selves ; but if not , do not underta●e to judge concerning the modern prophetick numbers , because this our number is the root of prophetick numbers . 102. and that you may have no quarrel with the prophets , my dear brethren , i shall apply to the two fore-mentioned vials this very number , which because i have set down before , i 'll only point you to here , to avoid repetition ; which number do you seriously ponder and revolve in your minds , for it is the most secret and absolute number of the scripture , being sealed , and leads us to the very year of the manifestation of the terrestrial paradise , necessary to be known by us of this age ; for the hour of the last judgement must abide sealed up for reasons known to god , being hid under the number of a thousand years . 103. the afore-said number will be found to agree with the years , months , and weeks , of our modern prophets , and i had already began in the fore going line , to apply them to the numbers of our witnesses , which are yet alive , which yet after two days pause i blotted out again , contrary to my custom ; because both the impulse of my mind , and a two days consideration , abundantly perswaded me , that i had much more reason to be silent than to declare any thing about this matter . 104. i say contrary to my custom ; for whatever from my soul-mind-spirit , flows once into my pen , never needs any blotting out , because our inward dictator , who is incomprehensibly hid under the outward , scarce ever suffers us to mistake , it being rare for our hand to make a blot , insomuch , that what is once writ continues written , though i want the prophetical dictation , which is very different from our way of writing . 105. the impulse of my mind ; because i remember the past contentions , by which our yet living witnesses ( whether standing in the first , second , or third principle ) did greatly trouble and hinder me , who was yet ignorant of such frailties ; for they measuring others , with the measure of their own principle , went astray from their call , and led others into the same error with themselves . 106. and two days consideration ; for the longer time some intervening occasions gave me of considering , the greater need i found to blot out what i had begun to write , and not at all to meddle with the numbers of such as were yet alive ; for i considered that they being caught in the riddle of their own principle , would not be able to understand nor bear the clear opening of the term of years , which was given to them infolded in a prophetick riddle ; and being too tender promoters of their own will , did shorten this fearful and universal work of god , according to their affections , not seeking the glory of jesus christ with their whole heart . 107. you do not purely seek the glory of god in his son , whosoever you are , that do so anxiously call for a shortning of the time ; whereas it would become you wholly to leave the time in the will of god , till all that is to be done , be accomplished . make haste , my brethren , make haste , to sow the seed ye have received from god , in the hearts of men , least contrary to natures order , you should seem to hope for a harvest before the seed time , as hitherto ye have done , and by the same mistake have unhappily lost your sowing season . 108. the seed being once cast into the ground , will spring up abundantly , and at the time of harvest will give its ripe fruit ; our forefathers shall enjoy their hope in us , and we shall enjoy ours , in our posterity , as being all but divers members of the one glorified body of jesus christ . 109. if ye understand this , my brethren and sisters , whether prophets , wise , or scripture-learned , understand it , you are onely the more particular appliers of scripture , and i relying upon the base and center of scripture , do expresly declare , that all your numbers will follow mine , if they be from the holy spirit ; neither shall my number follow yours , except they be consonant to the scriptures . 110. wherefore give ear , o my brethren of israel and juda , to this revelation of the sixth and seventh vial , and not to your false academicks , if you would learn the disposition and genius of the future , as well as present and past time ; and have a more careful esteem of the living servants of god , whom having once laid this foundation , you 'll easily distinguish from false ones . 111. the two years time of the last comet expiring in may 1679 ( at which time my double * quinary , given to me alone by god , expires likewise ) will rouse you out of your sleep of security ; for this most wonderful work of god doth daily dawn and discover it self in such an harmony , where in heaven and earth , all above , and all below shake hands , and are agreed together ; so that through the grace of god , the pouring forth of the sixth vial upon euphrates ( which is the turkish and persian empire ; and in another respect , whole rome the eighth , and the spanish dominion in europe ) is at hand . 112. when you shall see those new christians flourishing in the life of christ , and the three-one light despised of christians , to shine forth beyond belief in the hearts of many under the turkish and persian empire , and that with far brighter rays than ever it did in our named christendom ; then let this be a certain sign to you , that the first year is expired of those 10 mentioned before ; the time of which being rightly counted , will open to you all the rest . 113. my heart melts with joy , whilst i write these things , and the splendor of the light world , being open to my inward eyes , doth triumph with me . rejoyce o ye fasterlings ! rejoyce ! the sun of righteousness shall suddenly arise to you , with the lustre of innumerable rays , and shall change your half moon ( which the dragon will endeavour to devour ) into the sun. the great and wonderful things of god are a preparing to be preached unto you , which the seers neither have seen nor shall see . holy , holy , holy is the three , one god , who was , and is , and will be one god! 114. o that ye lutherans and reformed , understood these things ! i know that with an unanimous agreement you would cast away your sectarian discord , and get you out of babylon , according to my former apprecation , which i shall more fully explain in that which follows : for to you wicklef-waldenses , hussites , zuinglians , lutherans , and calvinists , my fellow brethren , hath the voice , as well of the inward as outward eternal gospel , sounded from heaven , by the prophets , wisemen , and letter-learned , saying , go out of her , by a total rejection of all babylonish papal , roman , latine , and heathen rites and errors , my people of the reformed church , from its infancy to its manly age , that ye may not be partakers , as hitherto ye have been in your love , manners , words , and actions , with her sins , and that ye may not receive , if wanting true repentance , you continue so at the appearance of this sixth judgement , of her plagues , which your selves have poured out upon her , as having been the rod to punish her , which afterwards is also to be cast away , as having no further use . 115. for your political or civil state , o israel and juda ! is corrupted with the laws of the dragon , i mean the institutions of justinian ; and your ecclesiastical state is no less ruin'd with opinions taken from the papal canon law , being nothing else but so many palliated antichristian errors : and your private academical state is changed into perfect heathenisme . 116. reform therefore the government of your church and state , and the discipline of your schools , according to the form and rule of the holy ghost , that is , the scriptures , and their divine commentaries , the prophets , wise-men , and scripture-learned , as well those before commended , as others of the same stamp , who may easily be known by being compared with them ; and in so doing you will erect such a christendom as the scripture describes to be agreeing with the sixth vial. 117. restore the one onely name of christians , having rejected the names of wiclef-waldenses , hussites , zuinglians , lutherans , calvinists , and all other names of authors ; and herein follow me , or rather christ in me , who am the first that by a publick and solemn confession , and by a real , not verbal rejection of all other names , have re-taken the name of christian . 118. having restored the name of christians , restore also with me one catholick christian confession , to wit the holy scripture ; and at the same time make one universal christian confession , full of the everlasting gospel , out of the augustan , basil , suevian , both the switzerland , saxon , witteberg , french , english , and last bohemian confession , and then burn all but it , together with all their voluminous commentaries . 119. what was said concerning confessions , the same is to be understood of catechisms , out of all which , with the assistance of divine light , let one universal christian institution be compiled for the instruction of youth ; which by its evident truth may be able to recommend it self to all christians , not by force and violence , which hath been the fruitful womb of antichristianisme . 120. collect also bodies or systems of the doctrine of the reformed church : as for example , out of all the writings of the wiclef-waldenses , select and make up one body of the doctrines of the reformed church in its infancy ; out of all the writings of the hussites , a body of the reformed child-hood : out of the zuinglian writings , a body of the adolescence or reformed stripling age ▪ out of the lutheran , a body of the reformed young-manly age ; out of the writings of the calvinists , a body of the reformed manhood ; and out of the writings of the prophets , wise-men , and scripture-learned , a body of the reformed old age : that so a perfect concord and harmony may be established , and all mistakes and errors utterly cast away . 121. this is the sum of my intention , as to those systems or bodies i mentioned in my forerunner , neither have i writ or said any thing ( though it may have surpassed your belief ) which i could not really effect by the grace of god ; and am most willing , my most dear brethren , to communicate all these things and such like more to you , which are of force enough to transmute all the lead of your babel into pure gold , if you will but heartily set upon the work of reformation . it was for this i was born , and called before i was born , that i might change babylon into gold , without the use of any material sword , whether of steel or of lead , and the strength of my enemies falling upon me in vain , shall fall by their own strength , the lord of hosts fighting for me , you your selves being witnesses . 122. but in the first place restore one onely scripture , as well in its text , as interpretation ; and as soon as ever you have restored the scripture , with one consent burn all your modern bibles , which are the instruments of sectarian confusion , abounding with many additions , emendations , explications , divisions , disjoyntings , and changes of humane reason . 123. for my chiefest design is to restore the scripture , with the assistance of divine light , in order to an universal conversion , and to expose the same , not only to the censure of you , my lutherans and reformed ; but also to that of all people , nations , and languages of the four corners of the earth ; to the end that one god may be known in one scripture , under one sun. 124. the very letter of scripture hath been very much blurr'd by jews as well as christians , upon several accounts : but if this have hapned in the text , much more in the interpretations , which do so vary from the text , and from one another ; that i have scarce had freedoom to alledge the text of scripture in the former part of this epistle , when i considered the many errors in the various readings and interpretations occasioned by the neglect of writers and printers . 125. if i had the outward letter of the scripture in its genuine truth and purity , i should easily with the outward letter have conquered all sectaries ( the inward spirit of the scriptures being opened to me ) and therefore i can no longer bear these dark evasions of a corrupted text , but shall retrieve the scripture , as to the truth of the letter , by the help and assistance of the dictator himself ; which i am in an assured expectation i shall accomplish in the view of the whole world. 126 and to this end ( in the strength of god ) i shall cast away all humane additions whatsoever ; as those of contents , divisions of chapters and verses , and much more all additions to the text it self ; and in so doing , shall discover the faults of the original scripture amongst the jews , as well as christians , which are all stained with these blots , and much more the errors which are in the interpreted scriptures of all people , nations and languages . 127. i shall restore the text it self , both hebrew and greek , not by mine own knowledge , but by the grace of god alone ; and at the same time shall expose to view an instance of a true translation in the la●ine , german , and arabick tongues , for a pattern to all other people , nations , and languages , that so our universal work may come to be of universal use and service , as being designed onely for the glorifying of jesus of nazareth , king of the jews , in every people , nation , and language . 128. the last five volumes of this universal work , shall present the twenty four books of the bare text of scripture ( according to the number of the elders in the revelation ) dress'd up in a comely garb to the eyes of the world , and compleat ( if it please god ) the number 77. of our universal writings , with respect to the 77. persons of lucifer's restored throne : in which writings both scriptures shall by way of paraphrase be explained , according to the three principles severally and conjoyn'd . 129. the intended paraphrase of the scripture beginning from the fall of the angels , and thence proceeding to the creation of this world , shall open all the arcana , secrets and mysteries of scripture , which are necessary for the present age ; and shall beyond the belief of men of this age , unfold the whole work of the redemption of mankind , from adam through all the patriarchs , prophets , and kings , unto christ himself , and from christ through all the apostles , and their successors , unto the thousand years of paradise ; to the end that all people , nations , and languages ( will they , nill they ) may acknowledge and own jesus christ to be the true son of god , and the saviour of the world. moreover in this paraphrase , the true chronology , which hitherto hath been lost , shall be restored to the world , and all the mysteries of numbers past , present , and to come , unvailed : but above all , herein , as in a clear looking-glass , the great whore of babylon shall be exposed naked to the view of all , to the end that all prophecies may be fulfilled . 130. the scripture being opened according to the first principle of the seven arts , to the mystical posterity of japhet , shall discover the true and solid principles of all arts , consonant to whole nature , in so many thousand aphorisms , as shall exceed those of all academical writings put together in number , but much more in worth and value , as being true refined gold , in comparison of the others lead : which discovery will promote the ruine of the present universities , and make way for the restoring of true christian schools . 131. the scripture opened to the off-spring of sem , according to the second principle of grace , shall first of all unvail the mystical kingdom of christ in us ; by means of which the whole scripture , from the beginning to the end , is contain'd in every one of us , and shall discover all those most holy pearls of divine mysteries , which hitherto have onely in particular been disposed of to a very few friends and spouses of christ , unknown to the world : and then it will be as clearly understood , that every man is really a micrographe ( that is a little scripture ) either for heaven , or hell , as now it is ignorantly denied . 132. the scripture opened according to the third principle of whole nature , unto the children of ham , shall reveal the most universal master-piece of nature , and shall discover the science of all adepts , that have been , or shall be , together with the signature of the stone of the wise-men ; and wholly lay open the very root of that tree , beyond the belief of all adepts who live in the third principle without the second . hearken ! ye adeptists , my brethren , ( whether ye be in the east-indies , or in any other part of the world. ) hearken ! nature shall be reduced to scripture , and scripture to nature ; to the end that all hidden things may be revealed : the time of your gathering together from the four corners of the earth draws near , which will be as soon as the vial of the wrath of god shall be poured forth upon the air ; to the end that in a fuller measure , than ever heretofore , you may be made partakers of the infinite son of the infinite tincture , being the very image of jesus christ in nature , when the first principle shall dwell in the second , and the third shall serve the second . 133. the scripture opened according to the three principles conjoyn'd , is yet to continue sealed , until the lord shall be pleased to unseal the same , either in me or some other person ; because i see that the sound of the trumpets of the lord grows every day stronger and stronger , one witness of god following the other at the heels , the later still excelling the former . 134. the present writing will intimate to you , what wonders may be expected from the restored text of scripture , and will most plainly lay open to you lutherans and reformed , the infancy , childhood , stripling-age , youth , and manhood of your interpretations : all which of right are to give way for old age to succeed them , having already fulfilled their service amongst infants , children , striplings , young-men and men. 135. hitherto i have been a shewing you your divine call , and withal pointed out to you your babylon . and though i have already abundantly made it appear , that you are fellow-brethren , yet shall i in what follows more particularly make it out to you ; to the end at length you may learn to be wise , and leave the ways of cain . for the spirit of god in his prophets doth every where accuse the coldness of your charity to your fellow-brethren , without which charity , your reformation is nothing but a deformation of christianity , and an appearance without reality . 136. o my lutheran-brethren , ye have been colder than the iseland snow in your charity to your brethren the calvinists , and they again to you , notwithstanding you were nearest to one another ; and that by reason of your contentions about some articles of faith , not about the life of christ : in which articles ye have most antichristianly placed your salvation , and not in the holy life of christ . 137. christ taught you to pray , forgive us our debts , even as we also forgive our debtors ; which you have indeed daily prayed , and yet continue to pray to your own damnation . you do not forgive your debtors their debts , and yet you ask the same forgiveness of god , and receive it too , even the same you have exercised towards others , and askt of god. 138. you have out of envy laid great debts to the account of many holy men of god , who have been extraordinarily call'd amongst you ; which if they had really been chargeable with , yet ought ye to have forgiven them , as having daily promised to god so to do ; but in stead of this , ye have contrary to your prayers and conscience , condemned those alive and dead , who are a thousand times more happy than your selves . 139. hence it was , that at the beginning of my coming forth , such a flame of wrath burst out against you , and openly discovered your nakedness , not being able to see such antichristrian actings covered over with the name of true christianity ; which i desire you to blot out with the repentance of a serious amendment : turning the edge of your anger , not against me , but against your selves . 140. i have in this discourse , o lutherans and reformed , most nakedly opened my peaceful heart to you all ; i have distinctly shew'd you the good and the evil which is amongst you : i have laid before you the means of a true reformation ; under the title of fellow-brethren i have lasht your most antichristian enmities : i have entirely forgiven all my debtors amongst you , and at the present do forgive you my dearest brethren , any debts of your threatned writing against me , if so be you esteem the same as not written ; having only design'd it in your ignorance , to the end your nakedness may not be expos'd to the view of the world. 141. the truth , which is become man , will in me triumph against all his enemies , and your posterity in sweden , denmark , saxony , holland , england , france , and venice , will be of my side , not of yours , when in the time of their great tribulation , they shall understand their call out of the prophets , if ye in your time should refuse to hear and understand it ; which god forbid . 142. for then the eternal gospel which ye had rejected , would be taken from you , and translated to our brethren of the east , the turks , persians , and tartars , and from thence would onely reflect its light to you , as from its center ; so that then you would never again be able to buy that living water , to quench the thirst of your souls , so nigh unto you for nothing . 143. as long as there is yet hopes of your repentance , so long shall ye be my fellow-brethren ; but as soon as your last breath is past your lips , you shall then either be my fellow-brethren ever or never . 144. what i have said of you , the same may be said of the turks , persians , and tartars , as well as of nominal christians ; because turks and persians , with others who are strangers to the name of christ , if they heartily glorifie christ by a righteous life towards god and their neighbours , though they have no explicite knowledge of christ , are notwithstanding partakers of him , and that in a nearer degree than our nominal christians , notwithstanding their mahometanisme , which in time must be totally done away . 145. would you know the reason of this assertion ? consider the rise of mahomet ; was not he raised in the wrath of god to be a scourge to the roman antichrist ? and if you view the roman idolatry with their saints and saintesses , you 'll find that the mahometans are justifiable , not in respect of their own law , but in regard of the scandal they received from rome ; for which reason also the execution of the sixth judgment ( which is to pass upon universal rome ) is committed by god to mahometans . 146. wherefore take heed of those three frogs , before explained in the sixth vial , who by their contrary opinion , will be generally very pleasing to sectarians , in maintaining that the ruin of mahometans is at the door . take heed ye do not vainly perswade your selves that the mahometan empire will have its period with the expiring of the dominion of the watry trigon , about the year of christ 1782 , because the said empire had its first rise under the same ; for supernatural prophecy doth assure us , that the sword of the mouth , not a bloody one , shall destroy the mahometan destroyers of european rome . 147. a hard message this is , but yet a very true one ; nor to be feared by any of my fellow-brethren that follow the words of god! for our god hath pointed out a pella for his own to retire to in the north , and in the east , in those words which he spoke to christina poniatovia , when she was a figure of this our sojourning , saying ; behold i will scatter my people amongst the nations , and i will send them into a strange land ! i will lead them out before the storm of my swift wrath break forth , that they may be preserved when i shall rain down fire and brimstone . wherefore as thou didst flee , so shall they ; many with trembling , not knowing whither to turn themselves ; but i will shew them their way , neither will i take my mercy from them . and i will give unto them their spiritual bread in abundance , even my holy word , that with it they may more freely , quietly , and undisturbedly feed and satisfie their souls : i will moreover add thereunto the bread of the body , and all necessaries of life ; neither will i be wanting to them in any thing , so they do but confide in me , and take me for their refuge . for my name is a most strong tower , if the righteous flee to me , he shall be saved in the evil day . 148. this our god fulfilled to the bohemians and moravians , who , to praefigure our dispersion , were driven into exile by the most antichristian wickedness of ferdinand the second . 149. and our heavenly father doth yet daily fulfil it in us , who in a figure live amongst the nations , being led forth , and daily more to be led forth , into a strange land : and the words before alledged will put you upon great thoughts , who do not understand that this our leading forth will be before the breaking forth of the storm of the swift wrath of the lord. 150. will you yet continue to call them fools whom god hath adorned with his threefold crown of wisdom ? will you proceed to afflict your fellow-brethren , with your corporal and spiritual imprisonments , whom god will deliver from your eternal captivity ? alas ! open your eyes ! open them i say : what ye have done to your fellow-brethren , ye have done to your selves temporally , if you be converted , but eternally , if ye be damned . 151. o waldenses , hussites , zuinglians , lutherans and calvinists , who are now divided by your sectarian names , but i hope ere long will be christians with me ! acknowledge your new babel to be of the same colour , with old papal babylon , being overcome by so potent a conviction ! for indeed ye are not able with any arguments whatsoever , to overthrow this application of the revelation , because you cannot apply it any other way in such harmony . 152. ye lutherans have proclaimed luther to be the angel of the eternal gospel , and have slain your selves with your own sword , because there are seven angels mentioned , corresponding with the angels of the seven vials ; who was then the first of these ? who the second ? who the third ? and so forth ; and which of them was luther ? answer me : but i know you 'll be silent . 153. john speaks thus concerning the fourth angel , answering to luther : and i saw , and behold a white cloud , and upon the cloud one sitting like to the son of man , having upon his head a golden crown , and in his hand a sharp sickle . 154. to whom i pray can this be applied in luthers time ? the devil indeed in luthers time exerted his strongest endeavours to overthrow the kingdom of christ , in the anababtist kingdom at munster ; neither was it without a cause that he mingled these tares amongst the good wheat of the kingdom of christ , that the angels of the external and eternal , literal and spiritual gospel , might not joyn their force together . 155. where there is wheat , there commonly also are tares ▪ where there are true prophets , there also are false prophets , which the whole tenor of the scripture declares : for it is most certain that in the same age in which writers give us an account of the rise of so many diabolical inspirations , revelations and ecstasies ; there were also divine inspirations , revelations , and true ecstasies . 156. and therefore they were not all arch-hereticks , who are so commonly accounted ; but rather promoters of the eternal gospel under their proper angel , and fore-runners of the paradisick reign of christ , all which ( being armed with divine assistance ) i shall publickly examine in the sight of the world , the devil in vain raging against it . 157. neither shall those execrable heresies , which are almost by a general consent adscrib'd to david george , deter me from an undaunted defence of his innocence ; since those things which are brought in against him by hornius and others , though seemingly proved by his own writings , have no more truth in them , than had the pharisees testimony against christ about his re-building the temple in three days . 158. that place of the revelation hath most truly been fulfilled in the restorers of the everlasting gospel ; where it is said , and none could learn the song , save onely the hundred forty four thousand who were bought from the earth : and will yet daily be fulfilled more and more . 159. the everlasting gospel , is nothing else but the everlasting knowledge of the whole gospel , which never was the same it is now , nor never will be the same it hath been : and in this one line you have the whole foundation of the everlasting gospel , which none , under the outward letter of the seven vials , hath , doth , or will be able to understand , without the teaching of the holy ghost , who is the dictator of the everlasting gospel ; neither will it be fully known to all , until the seven plagues of the seven angels be finished . 160. as great a difference as there is between the outward letter of scripture , and the spirit of the letter ; so great is the difference between the reformers of the outward , and the reformers of the inward papacy , as to their knowledge of scripture . 161. neither are the failings of each of them to be measured by any other rule ; and the fearful errors which have been publickly exposed under the name of the eternal gospel , by mistaken inlightned men , shall be publickly examin'd by me in a letter , where ( in the strength of jesus christ ) all the antichristian tenets of the quakers , and other such like , are totally overthrown . more might be said , than hath been ; and yet more may not be said at present , than hath been . 162. learn to know your selves , o lutherans and reformed , by your fruits : and thou house of juda in holland , who art not the least amongst the reformed churches , learn to know thy self , by thy mistaken proceedings and actings against rothe ; know thy self i say , and amend thy mistakes . 163. it was thy duty to have examined rothe according to the scriptures , but not to imprison him ? all thy preachers who deny prophecy in this our age , and do endeavor to confute the paradisick reign of christ , and the fore-going conversion of the turks , jews and heathens , to that one sheepfold of christendome , are blind sauls , if their zeal be sincere ; but devillish frogs if maliciously they persist to oppose the truth . 164. set rothe , mine and your brother , at liberty , and after publick prayers , examine him with a burning zeal for truth , taking care above all things that he distinguish , what in his writings is his own , from what hath been dictated to him by god ; adjuring him that he deliver the same without any addition or diminution whatsoever . in those which are his own writings , bear with his human frailties in brotherly love ; in his divine writings you must admit of none ▪ which divine writings of his you may then compare with the writings and prophecies of kotterus , christina , drabicius , kregel , herman , immediately received from god , with which they will be found to agree in all main points , if they come from god ; but on the contrary will be found to disagree , in case they proceed from a lying spirit . 165. having found their agreement , then be also obedient to god , and rejoyce in that thou art also called ; listening not only to the voice of the ancient , but also of thy new prophet . but in case thou findest them to disagree , then commit him to the mercy of god , and the prayers of the church , not to prison , that so thy christian charity may re-appear . this is the true way of knowing true prophets , but the other is antichristian ; this agrees with the scripture , the other is contrary to it . 166. i shall conclude , with repeating my hearty wish , that you may be found in the exercise of the first love , and that you may unanimously agree to flee from babylon ; and so i commend you , o pastors , sheep and lambs of the catholick reformed church , to the divine protection . the grace of our lord jesus christ be with you all , amen . this writing was finished at b. b. b. near london , 26 of january ( 5 th of february ) 1678. a most weighty postscript annexed instead of a seal , after my safe return ( through the grace of god ) from eastern rome ( which is constantinople ) into the north. 1. dearly beloved , i am about to seal my weighty london epistle ( which i wrote about fifteen months ago for a farewell ( being then ready to take my journey for rome ) with the seals of a most weighty postscript , after my safe return into the north , from my eastern voyage ; with which seals it hath pleased the lord of hosts to seal the said letter , in the east as well as in the north. 2. in the east , because the most high hath led me most wonderfully ( according to what he had before shewed to kotterus , and pointed out the way by the late comet ) for the space of five months , even unto eastern rome , for the ruin of western rome , at the same time when the eastern turk and northern moscovite were fiercely engaged together ; and the book which christina saw fall from heaven ( being all covered with gold , and of a triangular form , between the eastern and northern contenders , will ere long be visible to the whole world , to the amazing of the lions , who by reason of the fierceness of their contest do not yet see it . 3. in the north , because the almighty hath there discovered the fatal decrees and designs of western rome , against his people , for the fatal frustration of which he had sent me towards rome of the east ; as also for the fulfilling and promoting of all our modern prophets , wise-men , and scripture-learned ; and he , even he himself , hath been pleased to put his work in such a forwardness against my return , that at length his people being affrighted with so great dangers , and forced by so many necessities , might double-fill that cup to the whore of rome and babylon , in which she hath mixed her poysons for the destruction of reformed israel and juda. 4. o most accursed pope ! how will now the rumours from the east , and from the north affright thee ? didst thou think to establish thy tottering throne in london ? sure thou hast forgot what place london is ; but well hast thou done , in so doing , for thou hast destroyed thy self by thine own blindness . for england in her wiclef brought forth that infant which the church had conceived by peter wald of lions , and the first spirit is so nearly conjoyn'd with the seventh , even the infancy of the reformed church , with its old age , that it will appear that thou hast hereby hastned thine own ruin in england . 5. hence it was , that when at cadiz ( a place famous amongst academicks ) i heard the first news of the english conspiracy ( notwithstanding i was then beset with many troubles ) i rejoyced with great joy to see that my jehova was making way according to his promises . 6. hence it was , that when at my first arrival at amsterdam , i understood , not onely that one coleman was one of the chief of the conspirators , but also that there had been strange reports raised of me in remote places , and particularly at breslaw , my birth place , because of the likeness of my name with his , it raised very various thoughts in me , and at length moved me with indignation ( yet being unmoved ) until at last i found reason to praise again and again so wonderful a providence of god , upon such a special and unlook'd for occasion . 7. hence it was that at rotterdam , on the self same day on which drabicius fifteen years ago ( after that a draught of the seat and throne of glory had been presented to him ) had together with the youth cryed the cries of a crier ( 27 [ 17 ] of may 1665 ) i likewise cried again and again the cries of a crier , whilst with my outward and inward eyes i ran over the history of the particulars of this english conspiracy : indeed i was astonished , and joyfully praised the wonderful , yet visible direction and guidance of god amidst the horror and dolor of these modern commotions . 8. for reading the 81 articles of titus oats his discovery , which he dedicates to the king himself , i found so great an agreement between the dates of the conspirators transactions , and the time of my countermotions , for the ruin of the pope and his creatures , that it appears i was diametrically oppos'd to them , who , when they intended to subdue london under their yoke , was from thence to begin my journey for constantinople , which will prove so fatal to the pope and all romanists , and was at the same time to write this present letter ( of so great moment ) for a farewell , which during my absence , hath been in vain suppress'd by the self-love of some , because jehovah hath made it the more remarkable by the shame of those seeming heroes , who presumed proudly to judge and hinder so great an undertaking . 9. read , my brethren , my fifteen songs , and mind well their several dates , and you 'll find that the truth of christ hath destroyed the accursed foundations of papal falshood ▪ at the same time when they were most busie to raise them . review the whole train of papal designs , for these last fifteen years , and with all consider my secret leading centrally opposing them : he thus sporting with me , whose sport is with the sons of m●n . 10. it was for very great reasons that our examined fore-runner of the wonderful five , years , was by a perpetual dedication presented to the three charles's of europe , viz. to the lutheran charles , the reformed charles , and the papal charles , all at one time , and of one name defending the three great names of religion . 11. as for the lutheran charles , he by his many crosses and losses , and besides , having been at the very point of death , hath been exposed as a pleasing spectacle to the papists , at the same time when they designed the murther of the reformed charles , by so numerous a knot of ruffians , and whilst the papal charles is taken up with nuptial consultations . it is your duty o reformed israel and juda , to dive more deeply into the secret designs of the papacy than hitherto ye have done , which sets you together by the ears , hiding their aims under various fallacious pretences and seeming assistances , till at length being tired and weakened through these wars , ye , are forced to an agreement , because ye can fight no longer . 12. quirinus , built rome , call'd the inhabitants quirites and constituted the feasts called quirinalia : a quirinus also is chosen of god to consummate and fulfil the divine pleasure upon rome , the quirites and quirinalia . 13. coleman intended to subject london , the metropolis , not onely of three kingdoms , but of all protestants in general , to the kiss of the popes toe , with a design as black as his name : kuhlman on the contrary received london from the most high for his sixth city , where he might sensibly perceive the application of the seven revelation spirits , to the end the execrable papal and roman senary 666 , might eternally amongst all hellish spirits abide a senary 666 , with a design too , which answers and agrees with his name . 14. breslaw was the first place in which kotterus declared his prophetical commands to his mystical king frederick , and discovered the papal designs of secretly poysoning gods chosen servants , by which all other violent and murtherous ways are to be understood : breslaw also now is the first place from whence all modern prophets are opened , unfolded , and applied to you , the chosen ones of the east and north , at a time when the malicious plots of the papists appear again to the terror of the world. 15. wherefore at length learn to be wise , and own gods visiting of you by his prophets , wise-men , and scripture-learned , and with serious thoughts consider the historical application of the vials in this present epistle , which is the one onely mean to recover the true unity of the reformed churches , and their first love : for let the cursed pope know , that this very epistle shall yet strike him with more horror than an army of an hundred thousand warriours ; and five smooth stones taken out of the valley of the prophets , which i have put into the scrip of this writing , will be sufficient in my sling , to destroy him in the name of the lord of hosts , according to the prophets . 16. and as for you wiclef-waldenses , hussites , zuinglians , lutherans and calvinists , my most dear fellow-brethren , joyn all your forces together , and call a general covncil , wherein you may examine , follow , and fulfil the writings of your prophets , wise-men , and scripture-learned ; and as for all the grievances and scruples which are yet found amongst you , since they owe their rise onely to prejudices and opinionative conceits , they will in due time fall of themselves . it is most true , because under the pouring forth of your plagues , so much matter hath been made for more plagues , that the papal fury before its own fall will threaten yours , as hath been prophesied , but the almighty will turn it by , of which this writing may give you a fore-taste . 17. take heed of rejecting ( as hitherto most antichristianly ye have done ) what ye never read or understood , but examine all in the gold-ballance of scripture , according to the literal and spiritual sense of the holy spirit ; examine , i say , those who are spiritual spiritually ; and those that are literal literally , and all antichristian mistakes will presently discover themselves . the literal sense of the scripture is but one , whereas the spiritual and mystical sense is a thousand-fold ; and to confound the literal sense , with such infinite mysteries of the spiritual sense , as some carnal academicks do , must needs produce a strange confusion . 18. the prophets , wise men , and scripture-learned , do often seem to contradict one another , when their literal sense is not clearly distinguished from their mystical : and prophets indeed , at all times , because of conditions expressed or implied , and because of the riddle of the mystical future sense , as to places , persons , and times , have been suspected of falshood , by carnal and literal men , are , and will be so , until a corresponding event oblige posterity to esteem and revere their prophecies . 19. have not the modern prophets of this age in their own days , as well as at this present , been suspected of falshood and little regarded , because of the darkness of their words , and the seeming contrariety of events ? but what will ye say if amongst such differing and at divers times appearing prophets , who all lived before i was called or inlightened ( whose names i have here and there alledged in these and other writings ) ye shall read and hear that these following 28 particulars ( all which point at me individually , and have their proper fulfilling at this very time ) were fore-told , as it were with one mouth ; viz. my father , mother , the year , month and day of my birth , my malignant constellation , my christian name , name and surname , my countrey , city , ascendant , the year and month when i was inlightned , the year of the holland motion , my seal , learning , writings , leaving of the vniversities , my rejecting the degree of doctor , my restoring of scripture , unsealing of the prophets , my voyage to constantinople , my hasting , and fall thereby occasioned , my foster mother a widow , my doubled five years time , and lastly my age of twenty eight years . 20. all which things i intend , if god permit , to publish in their due place and time , to the glory of god , the confirmation of the prophets , the terror of the pope , the instruction of all , and the quieting of my own conscience , in so many doubtful cases ; though the angel of sathan who buffets me day and night for the superabundance of revelations , doth so much endeavour to suppress it , that by reason of so great loads wherewith i am burthened by my self , my friends and enemies , i scarce know my self , nor am able to serve my self or others . 21. what i have said concerning the one mouth of the prophets in their fore-telling of my call , the same i affirm concerning all other matters ; and i have abundantly demonstrated the unity and truth of the numbers of kotterus and drabicius , in the treatise i wrote at smirna , intituled , the mystery of kotterus his 21 weeks . and to adde further weight , for a weighty enquiry into these mysteries , i will here set down three capital concordant places , which in few words contain great and weighty matter , and from which so great a light will appear in and out of darkness , as will be abundantly sufficient to establish the authority of the revelation of these revelation commentaries . 22. the first place shall be that of drabicius , rev. 395. count the number of the 70 weeks from the day of my departure , if thou hast vnderstanding , where an end must be made of the days of battels and wars which are at present ; for when they shall cry out peace and security , i will come to execute judgment , the time of times and half a time drawing to an end . the 70 weeks of daniel ( concerning which the revealer had said before , that he was come before they were ended ) do end in the 37 year after his birth ; from which time of his departure , if you again count those 490 yearly weeks , they point us to the year 527 , and to the antichristian birth of that cursed body of the civil law , compiled in the reign of justinian the emperor , when the one time of the apocalyptical dragon began , even in the year 527 ; his two times began in the year 887 , and his half time 1607 , whose end will be in the year 1787 , when the 1260 apocalyptical years will be ended . 23. the second place is that of kotterus , chap 1● . v. 40. where he begins to reckon the half time of the two treaders-down , from the year 1260 , as the original sheweth ( the translation being faulty here , as in many other places ) according to which one time begins with the year of christ 612 , two times at the year 948 , and half a time at 1620 , which accordingly expires with the year 1788 ; which half time being 168 years , do agree with the 21 weeks of kotterus , which makes 147 years , and end in the year of christ 1768 , which time is aenigmatically , yet most truly and clearly discovered under the number of the years 1620 and 1624. whatsoever therefore the holy scripture hath fore-told concerning the papal and turkish state under the time , times , and half a time , of 1176 years , will be fully accomplished in the year 1688. 24. the third and last place is that of kotterus , chap. 24. ver . 50 , being the most notable of all : these are the times of the woundings of the beast : take notice of these that follow , 1329 , 1428 , 1527 , 1626 , about these times it must be fulfilled , seven years backward , and three years after . these numbers contain each of them 42 , being thus placed one above another . 13 14 15 16 29 28 27 26 42 42 42 42 the two angels command him to reckon seven years backward , and three years after , and tell him that every one of these 14 numbers contain 42 , being placed as before , which is the true key to underderstand these numbers . the seven years numbred backwards , are 1230 , 1131 , 1032 , 933 , 834 , 735 , 636 ; and the three years after , 1725 , 1824 , 1923 , every one of which numbers ( which is wonderful ) contains 42 , being placed as the angel appointed , thus , 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 17 18 19 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 25 24 23 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 25. these three places will abundantly bear witness of the harmony of these numbers , and of the mistakes of all those who hitherto have interpreted them , and i should have been afraid of opening this last place ( which takes so large a compass ) but that i read in the prophets themselves , that it is lawful at present to unlock that mystery of numbers : for the 1176 years of the two witnesses expired five years since , and their 1260 year-days , and solar months , which are expresly allotted to them in the revelations , will according to the same explication , end with the year 1685 , after another double quinary is past . and in this regard the first day begins with the year of christ 425 , the second with 785 , the third with 1145 , the fourth with 1505. so that both according to the solar and lunar months , the determined time of the two witnesses is come ; and now that is fulfilled , the spirit of life from god came upon them , and they stood on their feet , and a great fear fell upon those that saw them ; this present epistle witnessing to the truth of it . 26. and you 'll easily know the reason why the numbers extend themselves as far as 1923 , so you do not confound the time of the sixth vial with the seventh : now the end of the sixth vial is the total exclusion of the cursed pope , the period of the four monarchies , and the full conversion of the turks ; upon which shall immediately follow that interval of the seventh vial , in which the universal conversion of all nations shall be carried on , and way made for the thousand years apocalyptical reign . 27. all the confusion which hitherto hath been amongst the good as well as the bad , hath proceeded from the ignorance of these vials ; the material object of the prophets , wise-men , and scripture-learned of the sixth vial , being the 17th chap. of the revelations , whose chief contents is , come hither , i will shew thee , the judgment of the great whore , who sits upon many waters : but that of the prophets , wise-men , and scripture-learned , of the seventh vial , is the 21 and 22 chap. of the revelations , whose main scope is , come hither , i will shew thee the woman , the bride of the lamb. this one thing is sufficient to overthrow all erroneous opinions , about modern prophecies , and to shew the difference of the sixth and seventh vials ; the former of which doth chiefly prophecy concerning the judgment which is to pass upon the pope ; the later concerning the reign of christ , and the utter overthrow of all other kingdoms . those very words , come hither i will shew thee , do fundamentally declare , that there will be a calling of prophets under the sixth and seventh vials ; neither do they understand the letter , and historical context of scripture , who do not understand the emphasis of these words , come hither i will shew thee . 28. it remains yet that i should speak concerning the angel of the seventh vial , and of other applications of the modern prophets , of the secret designs of the papacy , to destroy the english , dutch , french , german , and all other protestants , which are hinted at by the prophets ; and many other such like matters , were i not to keep my self within the limits of a postscript . and you o pastors , sheep and lambs of the reformed israel and juda , weigh in the equal ballance of christian truth , what hath been here propounded to you , and do not kick away your salvation , least at last ye be wise too late . the grace of jesus christ the onely begotten son of the living god , be with you , and with us . amen . this postscript was written at rotterdam the 26th of may ( 5th june ) in the year 1679. finis . errata . p. l.     23 8 read lutheran . 26 27 your . 28 3 days . 31 2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 — 8 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 32 17 unaccustomed . 50 4 the catechisms of luther , embden , bohemia , poland , the palatinate , geneva , and augspurg , these following books of the author will be translated into english with all convenient speed : 1. the fore-runner of the wonderful five years examined . 2. ten london epistles , of which the present epistle is the ninth . 3. the lilly-rose-sprout , or behmen new-spirited . 4. the lilly-rose-bud . 5. the 1st . 2d . 3d. and 4th . book of songs . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a47594-e220 1st . day 499 , 2d . day , 835 , 3d. day 1171 , 4th . day 1505 ; which ends at the year 1674. [ see sect. 101 , 102 , 103. ] see v. 59. * the number five . see sect. 59 and 102. a treatise of the perpetuall visibilitie, and succession of the true church in all ages abbot, george, 1562-1633. 1624 approx. 137 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 64 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a17020 stc 39.3 estc s100501 24165166 ocm 24165166 27282 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a17020) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 27282) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1845:2) a treatise of the perpetuall visibilitie, and succession of the true church in all ages abbot, george, 1562-1633. [8], 116 p. printed by humfrey louunes, for robert milbourne, at london : 1624. attributed to abbot, abp. of canterbury, by stc (2nd ed.) and nuc pre-1956 imprints. signatures: a-p⁴ q². marginal notes. error in paging: p. 87 misnumbered 88. reproduction of original in the cambridge university library. includes bibliographical references. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode 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text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng catholic church -controversial literature. church -history of doctrines. protestantism -apologetic works. 2003-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-04 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-02 rachel losh sampled and proofread 2005-02 rachel losh text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a treatise of the perpetuall visibilitie , and succession of the true chvrch . in all ages . at london , printed by hvm●rey lovvnes ; for robert milbovrne . 1624. to the reader . king salomon , the mirror of wisdome , who digged deepest into the richest mines of diuine and humane knowledge , exhorts others to search after that which himself had found in such abundance : and he sets an edge vpon our desires , by promising , if thou seekest after her as for siluer , and searchest for her as for hid treasure , then shalt thou finde the knowledge of god , &c. of so pretious a talent when wee haue found any parcell , wee ought not to hide it in a napkin , much lesse to bury it in the bowels of the earth , by concealment or suppression : for , veritatem celare , est aurum sepelire ; to conceale the truth , is to burie gold , and therby to depriue not only others , but our selues also , of the benefit and vse thereof . wherefore saint austen sharply censureth such as would challenge a peculiar interest and propriety in this , which is the true common treasure of gods church , saying , veritas nec mea , nec tua , nec illius est , sed omnium nostrum , quos ad eius communionem publicè vocas ; admonens nos , vt nolimus eam habere priuatam , ne priuemur ea : the truth is neither mine , nor thine , nor his , but all ours in common , whom thou ( o lord ) callest publikely to the communion thereof ; dreadfully admonishing vs , not to desire to haue it priuate , lest we be depriued of it . now , of all truth this day in controuersie , there is none more sought after by some , than the visibility of the true church , which retained the purity of the apostles doctrine , vnmixed with dregs of errour and superstition , especially in the gloomy and dark ages before luther . as for higher times , and neerer the apostles , such was the clarity and splendour of the pure church , that in a manner it obscured the sun. but , in succeeding and degenerating times , after the number of the name of the beast , 666 , it began much to be obscured and clouded with ignorance and superstition : and in the thousandth yeer , in which , satan was let loose , and much more after , euen till the happy reformation in these later ages , it was so eclipsed , especially in the western parts of the world , that some confidently affirm , it was quite extinct . the woman , clothed with the sun , hauing the moon vnder her feet , was now fled into the wildernesse , and had but a fewe stars to discouer her . by the conduct and lustre wherof , yet many wise-men follow'd her obscure track , and found her . among whom , the most reuerend , religious , learned , and painfull authour of this enfuing treatise , concerning the visibility and succession of the true church , deserueth to bee named in the first rank ; who hath more particularly and perspicuously trauelled in this argument , than any in our english tongue . it was the manner of the heathen race-runners , after they had finished their course , * to deliuer a lamp or taper to the next runner . semblably whereto , this christian antiquary shewes vnto thee , how the noble worthies of the christian world , and fore-runners of our faith , after they had finished their course , deliuered the lamp of their doctrine from one to another : as ( to omit other former-bearers of this light ) bertram , to berengarius ; berengarious , to petrus bruis ; petrus bruis , to waldo ; waldo , to dulcinus ; dulcinus , to gandune and marsilius ; they , to wicklef ; wicklef , to hus and ierome of prague ; and their scholars , the taborites , to luther . this treasure of antiquitie falling into my hands , and finding it hard to come-by , i thought fit to publish it , and make it more common ; that so , all that loue the truth , might cleerly see in it the perfect image of their mother , the true protestant church , partly blubbered with tears , partly smeared with bloud , by the cruelty of the man of sinne , and his complices , in former ages . about which dolefull image , we may fitly write these words of the prophet micah , for a motto : reioyce not against me , o my enemy : when i fall , i shall rise : when i sit in darknes , the lord shall be a light vnto mee . such a light hee hath been before , and in our daies , and henceforth will bee , according to his promise ; til he shall dispell all darknes , and consume the man of sin with the spirit of his mouth , and destroy him with the brightnes of his comming . euen so come , lord iesu ; come quickly . a treatise of the perpetuall visibilitie and succession of the true chvrch . wee teach , that as from the beginning long before the incarnation of christ , god euer had his church , yet sometimes more visible and glorious , and sometimes more contracted , and obscured : so since the appearance of our sauiour , at all times infallibly and without exception , there haue been chosen children of god , who haue retained his faith , and calling vpon his name haue studied to expresse their knowledge in their life , by retyring themselues both from the loose conuersation of libertines , and the profanation of idolatrous persons . neither euer was there any of our profession , which did teach or write the contrary . but wheras the synagogue of rome layes it downe for a fundamentall rule , that this church hath been and must bee in all ages , a visible and conspicuous congregation at the least , consisting of an apparant hierarchy , so that at all times a man may poynt it out , and may repaire thither , as to a matter eminent ; yea , and in a sort pompous too ; or to say as stapleton speaketh when he doth most extenuate it , a it is euermore visible in respect of her gouernours and sheepheards , but most of all for the pope , or cheife pastor thereof . to which pope , b bellarmine assigneth that he cannot erre in iudgment , and to the people and cleargie of rome ( where this sensible church must principally be ) that they cannot erre with a personall errour ; so that all altogether erre ; we therein doe dissent from them , and maintaine , that although when the godly are most driuen to extremities by heresies or persecutions , they bee visible each to other , and acquainted with some other brethren , who are in like case with themselues , yet they are not so apparant to other men , as that at all times they know where to find assemblies , and congregations of them . but that the bishop of rome , and his pontificall clergie , should haue the face of the church tyed , and inseperably ioyned vnto them , wee can in no sort yeeld , but doe disclaime it as a flattering tale , suggested to that bishop by such parasites as are about him , and from time to time doe depend vpon him . and that it may bee seene what reason we haue of this our assertion , wee first shew , that the estate of the faithfull was frequently so , before the comming of christ. for when it lay as hid in some fewe persons , within the single families of the old patriarks , before and after the floud , what great boast could there bee made of it ? nay , when the commonwealth of the lewes was much setled , into what straight was it brought , when dauid complained , c helpe lord , for there is not one godly man left : for the faithfull are fayled from among the children of men ? this being spoken , as it is most probable , in the dayes of saul , aster the dayes of samuel , and the d slaughter of the priests , how was it euen in iudah and ierusalem , when esay cried out , that e the whole head is sicke , and the whole heart is heauy , from the sole of the foot vnto the head , there is nothing whole therin ? the estate of the church being then most miserable , and all depraued , not onely in manners , but in religion , idolatry being plentifull , as is manifest by the wordes in the same vision , f for they shall be● confounded for the okes which you haue desired , and yee shall bee ashamed for the g●rdens you haue chosen : which intendeth the trees and pleasant places where they vsed their superstitions . call to mind the dayes of ieremie , when hee sayd , g runne to and fro by the streetes of ierusalem , and behold now , and know , and inquire in the open places thereof , if yee can finde a man , or if there bee any that executeth iudgement , and seeketh the truth , and i will spare it . and those of ezech●l , testifying in this sort : h i sought for a man among them that should make vp the hedge , and stand in the gap before mee for the land , that i should not destroy it , but i found none . these things were spoken of iudah and ierusalem , where alone at that time was that church which was ; the israelites for their grieuous sins , being long before caried away into captiuitie . you may adde to this , if you will , the complaint of micah , i woe is mee for i am as the summer gatherings , and as the grapes of the vintage : there is no cluster to eate : my soule desireth the first ripe fruites . the good man is perished out of the earth , and there is none righteous among men : they all lie in wait for blood : euery man hunteth his brother with a net . if the priests & people had not almost generally gone astray , and the whole face of the visible church had not seemed to bee defaced , would these prophets thus haue particularized , that one godly man was not left , and that one was not to bee found , who had not declined from truth ? wee doubt not but in those times the lord had many faithfull ones in secret , as hee had seuen thousand in israel when k elias liued , of whom neither the enemies of the trueth , nor scant that prophet , did take any notice . l the marke in the forehead is sometime knowne to few , but onely to him that imprinted it there ; yet this is a good holde for the elect , m the lord knoweth who are his . but vpon what might those , who were gods secret chosen outwardly build , when diuers times the princes and people had corrupted their wayes , and the temple it selfe was polluted , and made a sinke of idolatrie ? for wee finde that things stood vpon those termes in the dayes of manasse , when in the house of the lord , euen that house , whereof the lord had said , n in ierusalem will i put my name , hee built prophane altars : and in the two courts of the house of the lord hee built altars for all the hoste of heauen . iudge where in those dayes was the glorie of the visible church , or where it was a prettie while before that , when the priest o vriah was as ready to set vp in the temple an altar after the fashion of that which was in damascus , as the king ahaz was ready to commaund it . and then the prince and priests conspiring , there was scant any kinde of grosse idolatry , which was not plentifully committed , ahaz himselfe making his sonne to p goe through the fire after the abominations of the heathen . and least it should bee thought , that the people at least , did amend somewhat which was amisse , in the very next chapter it is witnessed in generall , q yet iudah kept not the commaundements of the lord their god , but walked according to the fashion of israel , which they vsed . and by most probabilitie , this outrage vnder r ahaz was the time , against which esay so inueighed in the vision before remembred . these things are so plaine , that the greatest pillars of the papacie cannot deny them ; and therefore they are forced to another shift , as the rhemists when they say , that there is a great difference betweene the christian church , and the iewes , ours resting vpon better promises then theirs ; which is a very poore euasion , in as much as euery diuine may know , that there be as large and many promises , that the church of the iewes should last vntill christes appearance in the flesh , as there bee that the congregation of gods saints shall continue among the gentiles vntill the day of iudgement . and ●auing onely for the time of the babylonish captiuitie , there was one set externall place of gods eminent seruice , that is , the temple at ierusalem , supported with such words , t this is my rest for euer , heere will i dwell , 〈◊〉 and u in ierusalem shall my name 〈◊〉 euer : the like whereof through●● all the continuance of the new testament , is not warrantable o●● of the word for any one place wh●●●euer . now it cannot bee so much as superficially maintained out of the scripture , that rome it selfe hath any such promise , but rather out of the reuelation of st. iohn , there are many substantiall matters which make to the contrary . but because by the strong shot of trueth they bee beaten from the bulwarke of the iewish synagogue , and flye to the next hold of the later testament ; let vs follow them thither . vvhen our sauiour christ was borne , and for the most part afterward , till he was baptized , where shall we conceiue was the visible church ? the scribes and pharisees possessed all the shew , and they were no better then a blinde leaders of the blinde . the priesthood was long before and after bought and sold ; and in christs owne time it is euident out of the scripture , that the highest spirituall dignitie going b by yeares , annas and caiphas , and other vnworthy men of that rabble did enioy it . vpon the birth of iesus , they were not glad , who should haue most reioyced in it : but all c ierufalem was troubled at it . and how they persisted afterward till christ did manifest himselfe fully , may bee guessed by diuers circumstances , which the euangelists do mention after his birth . but when hee came first into the world , of whom doe we find speech made , but of some shepheards in the field , of simeon an old man , of anna a most aged woman , both ready to goe into their graues , of ioseph and marie , zacharias and elizabeth , and very few others ? and of these some might bee soone dead , others might liue out of the way at bethlehem , or nazareth , or in aegypt , and the shepheards were in the fieldes about their trades : but where there was the appearance of a visible congregation can hardly bee imagined . when our sauiour had selected out his apostles , they then were termed by the name of a flocke ; but yet by their master they were called but a d little flocke , where the rhemists do confesse , that in the beginning it was little indeed . at the death of christ , when his body hanged on the crosse for our sakes , and his disciples were all e fled , no man daring to shew himselfe . f mary and iohn , and a fewe women were all the faithfull that now appeared vpon earth : and afterward while the apostles & their followers walked very priuately , or were assembled g in a chamber , the priestes , and scribes , and pharisees were they who ruffled it in the streetes , and bore the sway in the temple ; so that if a weak body had enquired for the church , he might rather haue been directed to them , who had the law , and the altars , and all sacred things in their custody , then to any other . when steuen had been stoned , and for feare of the persecution which was at ierusalem , the disciples were all scattered ; besides the apostles , it may well be presumed , that for a time they which remained in the citie where steuen had lost his life , did not walke very openly . truth it is , that after these things the church was better setled , and the truth was more spread ; but yet neuer was there any such priuiledge bestowed vpon it , but that in the dayes of persecution , or some grieuous apostacy , the faithfull might bee brought to a small visibilitie . our sauiours wordes intend so much , when alluding to the time of his second appearance , to iudge the quicke and the dead , he asketh , i neuerthelesse , when the sonne of man commeth , shall he find faith on earth ? as meaning , that very little should then bee found , in comparison of the floodes and ocean of iniquitie which euery where should abound . but god , to the end that he might not haue vs ignorant but warned before hand into what straights the church should bee brought , informeth vs by saint k paul , that the lord shall not come , except there first bee an apostacie , or reuolt , or falling away , wherein antichrist with great pride and disdaine should shew himselfe . this is solemnly spoken of by the apostle , and by all both old and new , intreating of it , is obserued to some matter of great note , that is to say , some maine declining from somwhat . many of our papists fearing to touch this sore , which can in no case turne them to good , would haue that interpreted , to note nothing else but the slipping of diuers regions & countries from their subiection to the romane empire . but gregory martin , and the other rhemistes being ouercome with the euidence of truth , are heere a little more honest then ordinary , and speake to other purpose . indeed they cannot tell how it will be taken at other papists hands , that contrary to the custome of their fellowes , in a matter of such moment , they should giue way vnto vs ; and therefore they doe vse these words in vvay of excuse , ● be it spoken vnder the correction of gods church , and all learned catholiques . but to the poynt concerning the apostacie , they deliuer this : it is very like , that this great defection and reuolt shall not bee onely from the romane empire , but especially from the romane church , and withall from most poynts of christian religion , ( in the margent it is , and from most articles of the catholique faith. ) heere they would haue vs take the romish beleefe for the christian religion , and catholique faith : but that deserueth a long pause : we rather obserue out of them , that this reuolt is in matter of faith , and not onely from the empire ; then which glosse , nothing can be truer . well then , if there must bee so egregious an apostacie , it will follow , that antichrist so domineering , as by the apostle he is described , will not bee negligent so to represse the publike seruice of god , that it shall not carry any liuely head , or countenance , where hee hath to doe . so that certainely our rhemistes yeelding to this exposition , doe in substance confesse so much , as that the apparancy of gods congregation , in the time of the great defection , must bee mightily ecclipsed . now the lord , to the end hee might establish his faithfull , and arme them to expect this paucitie of beleeuers , and inconspicuousnes of his church , and yet not be discouraged for that which should bee past , present , or to come . and againe , that there might bee no doubt in a matter of this moment , letteth vs further know , that the m woman fled into the wildernesse , where shee hath a place prepared of god. it is not doubted of betweene the romanists and vs , but this woman doeth represent the church , concerning whom , being in the wildernesse , it doth manifestly follow , that for the time of her abode there , which the almightie had decreed , she should not be discerned ; that is , by her enemies , who did & would chase her : notwithstanding , it is not to be doubted , but shee knew where her selfe was . if the romanist therefore , and persecuting aduersary , did not euer see the professors of the gospell , it was no wonder : the woman was to remaine in the wildernesse a part , and hidde from them . the euidence of which matter is such , that as n master fox obserueth , for feare of diuers things in the reuelation of saint iohn , ( whereof this may worthily be one scant any popish writer for many yeares together , durst aduenture to comment any thing vpon the apocalyps , vntill our rhemistes being desirous to shame the pope , and themselues , with all who are wise , and adventured to set pen to paper . hauing then a purpose to set forth and corrupt the new testament , partly by their translation , but most of all by their annotations , they could not choose but say somewhat of the reuelation , although they professe , that it is as o sparingly as may be , and as briefly ; which is not for that the volume of the rhemish testament groweth great , as they would colour it , but for feare least they should too much lay open their owne weakenesse , which while that booke is in the bible , will neuer bee concealed . howsoeuer therefore , through their volume , in many maine matters , they bee very silent where they should most speake , as of the question of imputed righteousnesse , where the p apostle doeth most handle it , ( a sore argument of their owne conscience distrusting their cause , and euen sinking vnder the waight of that chapter ) yet here god ouer-ruling them , to say the truth , as hee did q caiaphas , they interpret the woman to be the r church , flying from the great persecution , which shall be in the time of antichrist . indeed , to keepe peace with their lord and mastes the pope , they will not haue this flight to bee but in the very ending of the world ; and so they would fetch it with a backe racket , that the woman should continue so in secret , but three yeares and a halfe , which ( to keepe all vpright ) they assigne to be the time of antichrists raigne , and then the iudgement must come ; which is a most fond evasion , seeing by that meanes men liuing at the appearance of antichrist , should be able precisely to tell when the day should be , to wit , three yeares and a halfe after antichrists entring . f but of that day and houre knoweth no man , no not the angells which are in heauen , neither the sonne himselfe , saue the father onely . it can neuer be made good , that the t time , times , and halfe a time , the two and fortie moneths , and the thousand , two hundred and sixtie dayes , are so literally to bee taken , as that they should containe exactly three ordinary yeares and a halfe . your romane bishop in his declination , hath already been in the world much longer , and he is the greatest antichrist that euer yet was manifested among men , and on whom many things in the scripture signified , touching antichrist , doe directly and vnauoydably light . well , this reuolt taking place , and the woman , the church being in the wildernesse , it is not to be doubted , but here and there be diuers , which serue god aright , the very gates u of hell not being able to preuaile against them . and as these in generall wheresoeuer dispersed , doe make vp the vniuersall militant church : so where any few of them , euen in the smallest number , are assembled together , they may be said to be a particular congregation , or church . where three are , saith w tertullian , there is a church , although they bee lay persons . it is likely , that he alludeth to that saying of our sauiour , x where two or three are gathered together in my name , there am i in the middest of them . he is with them as with members of his church , to guide them and heare them , to blesse them , and preserue them . and that such little assemblies are not vnworthy the name of the church , is plaine by s. pauls words to philemon , where he sendeth greeting , not only to philemon , and appias , and archippus , but a to the church in philemons house : for so the rhemistes themselues translate it . in dangerous and apostatating times , such petty assemblies doe make vp the generall , and they belong vnto the same mysticall body , although they not onely be not knowne to their persecutors , but many of them haue no acquaintance with other . they haue the same head , the same faith , the same charitie , the same spirit , the same holy ghost is giuen to all saints , ioyned one to the other in loue , whether they know each other corporally , or doe not knowe them , saith b saint austen . the want then of acquaintance each with other , may keepe the godly asunder , as well as the rage of their persecutors ; both which are to be found in the case of elias . but directly to follow further this argument of the ecclipse of the churches glorie , may it not bee thought to be brought to a low ebbe , when it is said of the second beast , that c he causeth all both small and great , rich and poore , free and bond , that he should giue them a marke in the right hand , or in their foreheads , and that no man might buy or sell , saue hee that had the marke , or the name of the beast , or the number of his name . and what else is signified , when so d many are mentioned to haue commerce with the whore of babylon ; yea , e all nations are reported to haue drunken of the wine of the wrath of her fornication . the ancient fathers were not ignorant , that such times these might bee , when they so oft compared the church to the moone , as saint f ambrose . the moone it selfe , whereby in the oracles of the prophets , the countenance of the church is figured ; when at the first rising againe , shee is renewed into the ages of the moneth , she is hidden by the darknesse of the night , and by little and little filling her hornes , or right ouer against the sunne ending them , doth shine with the light of cleare brightnes . g s. austen in one place doth for diuers respects liken the church vnto the moone , and expoundeth the moone to signifie it . h in another place he hath the sun is christ , the moon the church ; which as one the one side it doth intimate vnto vs , that the moone hath no light but from the sun ; and the church no light nor beauty , but from god : so on the other side it doth most liuely put vs in mind , that as the moon continueth at the same stay , but increaseth and decreaseth , waxeth and waneth , is ecclipsed by the interposition of the earth between her selfe and the sunne , and somtimes in the change cannot be seene , although it is neuer to be doubted but there is a moon : so the church of christ , whilest this troublesome world doth last , is now glorious , then shadowed ; in one age in beauty , in an other age kept vnder ; vnder some princes in peace , vnder others in persecution ; yea , sometimes so pressed with the extremity of the malicious , as that she is glad to remaine retyred into secret places , & not to appeare openly to the malignant , albeit shee neuer is nor can be extinguished , but hath a continuall being . vnto which it may bee added , that since faith doth much consist of i things which are not seene ; and we beleeue the holy catholike church as an article of our faith , it may follow , that it need not euer be eminently visible , and apparantly sensible vnto vs. for the better exemplification of this verity , it may be remembred what hauock was made by the heathen romane emperors , and their deputies , against the flock of christ , in the ten first persecutions : that in the roman dominion , there was scant any to be heard of , who professed christianity , but he was soone cut off by the sword , or otherwise . did they in those times suffer any potent visibilitie of true professors , or whē they once knew where they were , did they not forthwith labour to extirpate them ? but in the dayes of constantius , when the arrian heresie had once gotten the head , where in the world did there appeare any sencible congregation , maintaining the orthodox beliefe ? hieroms testimony of those dayes was , k the whole world did sigh , and wondred that it selfe was arrian . the words are but few , but they are to the purpose . so said saint gregorius presbyter , writing the life of gregory nazianzen , the sect of the arrians had almost possessed all the coasts of the world , the power and impietie of the emperour ministring vnto it . the words of constantius himselfe in l theodoret , do giue testimony vnto this . neither doth liberius the roman bishop say ought to the contrary . the speeches of the arrian emperour against him and athanasius are these ; the whole world doth thinke that this is well . the whole world hath giuen sentence of his impietie . thou alone doest embrace the friendship of that wicked man. and a little before that : doeth so great a part of the world reside in thee liberius , that thou alone doest dare to come in ayd to that wicked man , and disturbe the peace of the vniuersall world ? whereunto liberius did not take exception , saying , that the visible church stood for him , and athanasius , but rather giueth another reason , to make good his being alone ; be it that i am alone ; notwithstanding for that the cause of the faith is not the worse : for a great while ago●e , there were three onely found , who would resist the kings commandement . heere the church for any external shew , was low brought : for if any body held it vp , it was athanasius , who then played least in sight , and durst not appeare . for this liberius , who did for a time second him , did afterward shrinke . he went at first into banishment in defence of the truth : but after that , he was solicited , and laid at by fontunatianus , that he relented and condiscended to subscribe to the arrian heresie , as m hierom witnesseth , who liued in that age , and was long conuersant in rome , and therefore could better report what was the issue of liberius his constancie , then some others who doe relate it otherwise . what can be said for him , bellarmine hath : but yet inforced by n the euident testimony of athanasius , hillary , and hierome , he confesseth so much as i haue here set down ; but couer it he would , that he only consented to the externall act of subscribing , but remained in heart othodox . why should it then bee a maruell , if in processe of time , antichrist growing to greater strength , the church should bee in couert ? it is no more then often fell out vnder the iewish synagogue , & hath bin exemplified to haue been since among the christians , and was so euidently foretold before . in so much that by the example of the o woman , it can not bee the true church , vnlesse it should be hidden in the wildernesse . which while our popish teachers deny to agree to their romish church , but professe that it hath euer been in sight , they themselues doe by a consequent proclaime , that they are not the pure and vndefiled flying woman , but another painted harlot and strumpet . the true church is for a time out of sight in the wildernes ; but so say they , was their church neuer : and therefore will they , nill they , their church is not the true church . and here , to the end that the slaunderous calumniation of our aduersaries may the more be manifested to all those , who wil not wilfully close their eyes against truth , i will a little shew the vanity , & yet maliciousnes of their obiection , when they say there was neuer any of our faith before the daies of p luther , who in the yeare 1517 , began for his part to display the kingdome of antichrist . where , i pray the reader to consider , that the most part of those whom i shall cite , are popish writers , and no way partially affected towards vs. we say then , that martine luther was not the first brocher of those points which he taught again't papistry ; but as he did originally deduce them from the scriptures , & out of the works of the ancient fathers ; so he did derine them also hereditarily from other , who immediatly before him had taught the same doctrine , & left it both in books , & the hearts of men recommended vnto him ; as principal parties herein i name iohn hus , & hierome of prage , and all such as were their schollers , in or about bohemia ; who before luthers time oppugned the beliefe of the church of rome , & their profession was not extinguished vntill his dayes , howsoeuer it before had bin mainly assaulted . if we could learne this no where els , yet q fr. guicciardine , an italian , & florentin historiographer , would informe vs of it , who writing of the yeare 1520 , saith plainly , that luther did set abroad the heresies ( as he tearmeth them ) of the bohemians ; and hee nameth there hus and hierome as former diuulgers of the same : and r petrus messias a spaniard therein agreeth with him , who mentioning the opinions of hus and the bohemians , saith , they were the seed of those errours , which were afterward in germany , alluding to the doctrine of luther . there is no man whose testimony in this behalfe may be of more worth then ioh. cochleus ; first , because he wrote a large story of purpose concerning the hussites , & therfore by his long search , reading , and writing , in that argument may be persumed to know as much as any . secondly , because it may be well imagined , that he would fain nothing to do luther good , in as much as he also wrote a volume purposely against that worthy seruant of god , intending to rip vp his whole life from yeare to yeare , and to censure all his works ; yet this enemy of his , in the story of the hussites , doth plentifully satisfie vs about the matter now in question . one where he telleth vs , that hus did slay soules for an hundred yeares together ; neither yet doth he cease to slay them by the second death . within an hundred yeares after him came in luther , according as the said iohn hus did a prophecie not long before his death . and when it is added , that yet he doth not cease to slay ; it is manifest , that his doctrine remained till the dayes of cochleus . b in another place he relateth , that luther did stirre vp seditions in germanie , by the books of the hussites . afterward he calleth those , who were in germany in his time , new c hussites . and againe , hus did so rent the vnitie of the church , that vnto this day there remaineth a pitifull diuision in bohemia . he proceedeth in the same matter elsewhere , saying , that the people of germanie are now by luther partakers of the heresies of hus , and hierome . one sort of the followers of this iohn hus , did call themselues thaborites ; and these were they , who most dissented of all from the doctrine of rome : of these he speaketh thus : e vnto this day remaineth the sect of the thaborites , in many places of bohemia , and morauia , vnder the name of picards and waldenses . lastly , the same f cochleus , in the yeare 1534. doth wish that hee may see the remainders or leauings of the hussites to returne to the church , and the germanes to cast out all new sectes . vvhat can bee more euident , then that the doctrine of iohn hus was sensibly and apparantly continued somewhere , euen till the dayes of martin luther ? vnto which may bee added , that whereas luther began to shew himselfe but in the yeare 1517 , that very yeere , was g ended the councell of laterane held at rome , and finished by pope leo the tenth . and there consultation was had of reforming the manners of the church , and of recalling the bohemians to the vnity of the church of rome . and as these testimonies doe conuince , that the christian confession of hus was not extinguished at the comming of martin luther : so may there be good reason assigned , why it did so long continue , in as much as it was imbraced by many , and earnestly maintained euen vnto the death . when hus began first to preach the people which vsed h handy craftes did with great desire heare his sermons , & did read the scriptures , being turned by him into their mother tongue , so that they could dispute with the priestes ; which the very women were able to doe ; m yea , and one woman did make a booke . not long after three of the schollers of this preacher did affirme , that the pope thē liuing was antichrist ; who had proclaimed a croisado against a christian king ; that was ladislaus , king of naples , then infesting the lands of the church of rome . these three persons were martyred for this speech , and tooke their death patiently . in small processe of time , this doctrine so multiplied , that as n onuphrius hath , the councell of constance was called principally for two things ; the one was against the hussites , the other to take away the schisme between the popes . these of liklihood grew great , that now a generall councell was called against them . neither did the people only agree in faith with iohn hus , but the nobles of bohemia stood apparantly for him ; in so much that they sent two o seuerall and solemne supplications to the councell of constance in his behalfe . and when these their request were neglected , and iohn hus , and hierom of prage ( contrary to the p emperors safe conduct giuen to the former of them ) were burnt , the nobles of bohemia did mightily murmure against the fathers of the councell ; in so much that sigismund the emperour , to giue them satisfaction on his behalfe , did write vnto them , excusing himselfe touching the death of these men , and laying the fault vpon the councell . but this gaue not contentment vnto the bohemians , now robbed of their principall pastor , but being mooued at the perfidiousnesse of those at constance , they assembled themselues together , to the number of thirtie thousand ; and in the fields vpon three hundred tables erected for that purpose , they receiued the eucharist in both kindes . afterward , they rushing into the churches and monasteries , did breake downe the images there . it was not long after , but that vnder q iohannes zisca , a noble and victorious warriour , these hussites grew to bee of souldiers fortie thousand in one armie , who got into their hands the castle of prage , the chiefe citie of bohemia . then not long after did pope martin the fift publish a croysado against these , whom hee called heretiques , promising remission of their sinnes to such as could destroy them . notwithstanding , these hated persons did still prosper , getting many victories vnder procopius , and other captaines , but especially vnder zisca , who was of that dexteritie , and felicitie in his warres , as that r cochleus almost amazed at his strange successe , sayeth , that scant any historie of the greekes , or hebrewes , or latines doeth mention such a generall as zisca was . hee built a new citie , as a refuge for his men , and called it thabor , whereof diuers embracing the doctrine of hus , were afterward called thaborites . a s second time did pope martine proclaime a croysado against them , graunting remission of sinnes to all who did either fight , or contribute money against them . vpon which , there were at one time t fortie thousand germane horse men gathered to destroy them : but such was the terror of their name , that vpon the approaching to them , the horsemen of their owne accord turned their backes and fled . the popish authour saith , that there was in this some secret iudgement of god , but hee thinketh the cause of their ill successe , was , that they had bishops and priests to their leaders and captaines . by this time came on the councell of basil , which as u onuphrius saith , was held against the hussites . this sheweth that there were many , which may also appeare , in that the fathers at basil , did by an indulgence graunt to the bohemians this dispensation , that contrary to the act of the councell of x constance , they might receiue the eucharist both in bread and wine . y genebrard , who was euer a true seruant to the pope , confesseth so much : but addeth withall , that the cup was permitted vnto them , because that alwaies before had beene their custome so to communicate : yet saith he , all was on that condition , that they should not finde fault with the contrary vse , nor seuer themselues from the catholique church in other rites and doctrines . y cochleus nameth no such condition . nay , to shew that simply and directly it was yeelded vnto them , hee reporteth , that the legates of the councell of basil , did thus expound that which was concluded in the bohemians behalfe . the z councell doeth permit the eucharist vnder both kindes ; not tollerating it onely as a thing euill , as to the iewes was permitted a bill of diuorce ; but so , that by the authoritie of christ and his church , it is lawfull and profitable to the worthy receiuers . where is it likely , that vnlesse the bohemians now after husses death had beene a strong partie , the antichristian rabble would haue yeelded to their importunitie , so directly against the canon of the next precedent councell ? indeed the a emperour sigismund did afterward take a course to lessen their number , when he sent many of them into hungaria against the turkes , that there they might either conquering winne to him victories , or being conquered themselues , so be destroied and perish . he who list to see more concerning the multitude of these professors , let him but looke on diuers places in the workes of aeneas syluius , who was afterward pope , by the name of pius the second , and hee shall finde him reporting of his owne knowledge , as trauailing himselfe into bohemia , that they were many , and very earnest also in their religion . if heere it should bee replyed , that these perhaps were base people , and of the vulgar , who thus followed iohn hus ; but men of learning and knowledge , or persons of authoritie , they had none to ioyne with them ; the course of the story will easily cleare the same , and shew that they had both learned pastors , and great magistrates , who beleeued as they beleeued , and stood wholly with them . of what literature hus himselfe was , is euident by his workes yet remaining , and by his personall withstanding the whole councell of constance . and what learning , what eloquence , what memory , all admirable were in hierom of prage , as also with what singular patience he tooke his death , is most significantly deliuered in an epistle of c poggius , who as an eye witnes beheld him , and seemed to be much affected with the singular parts of the man. which noble testimony of that worthy poggius , is acknowledged by d cochleus . whilst these two liued , there were diuers e priests , and f preachers , which agreed in their doctrine ; and in their sermons reproued the popish clergy for their simony , keeping of concubines , auarice , ryot , and secular-like pride . but after the death of those two famous seruants of god , their g followers got to them a bishop , who was a suffragane to the archbishop of prage , and by him they put into holy orders , as many clerkes as they would . which the archbishop tooke so ill , that he suspended his suffragan . but it was not long after , that h conradus the archbishop himselfe became a hussite also , as the authour calleth him . vnder this conradus , as president of the assembly , these hussites held a councell at prage , in the yeare 1421 , and there they compiled a confession of their faith . this cause did the said archbishop , and many barons of bohemia , afterward stiffely maintaine , & complained against the emperor sigismund , for offring wrong to those of their religion . i alexander also the duke of lituania , did giue these hussites ayd , which moued pope martin the fifth to write vnto him in this sort : know , that thou couldest not giue thy faith to heretikes , which are the violaters of the holy faith , and that thou doest sinne deadly if thou shalt keepe it , because there cannot be any fellowship of a beleeuer with an infidell . thus did the vertuous pope write . k in processe of time there grew a parley betweene sigismund the emperour , and the bohemians . there among the compacts , this was one , that the bishop should promote to holy orders the bohemians , euen the hussites , which were of the vniuersitie of prage . and they might well deserue to be reputed vniuersity men : for cochleus himselfe witnesseth , that the priests of the thaborites were skilled in arguing , and exercised in the holy scripture . l kakizana , one of them did vndertake to dispute with capistranus , a great and learned papist . by that time that the yeare 1453. was come , aeneas : syluius doth complaine , that m the kingdom of bohemia was wholly gouerned by heretikes . now all the nobilitie , all the comminaltie is subiect to an heretike . that was one george of gyrziko , gouernour of the kingdome of bohemia , vnder king ladislaus . but when ladislaus was dead , this n george himselfe was by the nobles , and people chosen king of that countrey : and continuing the ancient profession of his religion , about the yeare 1458. those of vratislauia and silesia doe refuse to obey him , as being an heretike . notwithstanding pope pius the second then intending warres against the turke , did by all meanes perswade them , that they should yeeld obedience vnto him . this george , saith the authour , was borne and brought vp in the heresie of the hussites . now when pope pius did interpose himselfe as a mediator betweene the king and his subiects , george did require of the pope , that hee might keepe the compacts agreed vpon at basil , in behalfe of the bohemians . and when o pius would not yeeld thereunto , the king calleth together the estates of his kingdome , and protesteth that hee would liue & die in those compacts , and so did also the nobles which were hussites . this was done at prage in the yeare 1462. this resolutenesse of his caused that pope to tolerate many things in him . but paul 2 , who succeeded in that see of rome , did excommunicate that king , & set vp a croisado against him . also he gaue to matthias the king of hungary , the title of king of bohemia . p onuphrius in the life of paul the 2. saith , that the pope did excommunicate him , and depriue him of his kingdome . indeed for seuen yeares this george & matthias did war for it , and matthias got from him morauia , and silesia , & a good part of the kingdom of bohemia : vratislauia also , and some other prouinces and cities did put themselues in subiection to mathias . yet did not george deale hardly with the papistes which were in prage ; but in his greatest extremity did vse both the aduise and aid of many nobles of the popish belief . at length , after the continuance of warre for seuen yeares , mathias concludeth a peace with king george , both against the wil of q the pope , and the emperour . and then this king was content to aske of the pope an absolution from the excommunication , some princes being mediators for him in that respect . but before the agents could returne from rome , the king died , in the yeare of our lord , 1471. by this story it is manifest , that both noble and learned of high account , were of that christian beliefe which iohn hus taught , and were contented to aduenture al things which they had in the world for the maintenance of the same . perhaps here it may bee asked ; but how shal we know that iohn hus and his followers did imbrace that religion which is now professed in england ? we find in aeneas syluius , some opinions of theirs , which peraduenture will scant be reputed currant among all english protestants . hee rehearseth these foure of theirs : m that they would receiue the sacraments in both kinds ; that ciuill dominion is inhibited to clergie men ; that preaching of the word was permitted to al men ; that publik crimes are in no sort to be tolerated . i answer , that truth it is , that hee there mentioneth onely those ; and whether he relateth them truly or no , it may be doubted , as anon i shall shew , by laying open the custom of the enemies of the gospell , in misreporting their doctrine . but n elsewhere he deliuereth other opinions of theirs , as against the supremacy of the pope against purgatory , against inuocation of saints , and such like matters . if we returne to cochleus , who was best acquainted with their matters , we shal find much more . as thus , o hus translated all the books of canonicall scripture into the bohemian tongue , and the people did most diligently read them . they would haue the holy scriptures to be the onely iudge in controuersies . they held , that all bishops and priestes are the successors of the apostles ; that , not the pope , but christ is the head of the church , neither are the cardinals the body , but all that beleeue in christ ; that , that the pope is not a member of the church , but of the deuill , and his synagogue ; that one pope was a woman : yea , hus did preach , that the pope is an abomination , and antichrist . also he calleth the p generall councell at constance , the synagogue of sathan . another of his articles was , q the pope is the beast in the apocalyps . his schollers after his death , r brake downe the images in churches and monasteries : yea , f zisca did cast down all the churches , which were dedicated to the virgin mary , or to any saint ; as if it were lawfull onely to build a church to almighty god. in his time the professors began to be distinguished in two companies ; the one of thē did not so much dissent from the pope as the other : those which in fewer matters diffred from the bishop of rome , retained still the name of hussites ; they which disagreed in more , were called thaborites , of thabor , the citie which zisca built for them . and these were the greater number , and the stronger . there is in cochleus a confession of faith made by one iohann . pezibram , a bohemian , who was but a hussite , and not wel affected to the thaborites , because he accounted them as a kinde of precisians , or puritans in comparison of himselfe ; yet this more mild man doth wish and beg of god , to see a reformation of the church , that t there might be redressed symonies throughout all the world , most detestable , most wicked , setting to sale of al sacramēts , most insatiable auarice , most impudent fornications , most putrified vncleannesses , rottennesses most abominable , concubines keeping most polluted , manners most dissolute , most corrupt gestures and behauiors , harlotry euery where too too much multiplied in the clergy , wherwith alas the whole world lieth corruptly filthy . also the lucifer-like pride of the clergie is exalted aboue god , their dainty & daily banquets , their abundant riches , and rich abundance , their disquietnes most litigious being the chiefe root of the quarels of the world , their curiositie most vaine , their most vnseemely pompe of apparell , their conuersation most secular-like , their most open transgression of all the commandements of god , their most remisse care of soules , their most negligent regard of the word of god. this he saith for himselfe : but concerning the thaborites , who indeed came neerer to the purity of the gospel , he witnesseth of them , that they held , u that materiall bread doth remaine in the sacrament ; that the saints now triumphant are not to be called vpon ; that there is no purgatory ; that no suffrages or prayers are to be made for the dead . also they allow not of the holy dayes almost of all the saints , nor of eue or vigils that goe before them ; nor the consecrations of visible things , as salt , oyle , holy water , bels , and such like . they haue a schismaticall celebration of their masses , that is , a seuerall sort of church-seruice , and refuse the most celebrious seruice of the church , and the rites and administrations of almost all the sacraments . let our papists now speak , whether they & we do not agree in the same doctrine altogether . for i doubt not but they who had receiued so much grace frō god , as to see al these things , were also partakers of farther knowledg in the misteries of saluatiō . while i haue spokē thus largely concerning these good christians in bohemia , let not any man imagin that christs faithfull flocke was restrained within the compasse of that countrey , so that godly men were else no where to be found . for certaine it is , that betweene the times of io. hus , who was burnt in the yeare 1415 , and the first standing vp of m. luther , were very many other who in that darknes did see what belonged vnto the light of the gospel . among these may be reckoned as very memorable the waldenses ; who about the yeare 1508 , do make an a answer in defence of themselues ; and therin as they testifie that then they had priests of their owne : so they speake against purgatory , and most openly against transubstantiation . the same touching transubstantiation they doe in a confession of b theirs , where also they impugne adoration of the eucharist . there also they name the prelates vnsauor● salt , and auouch that the execrabl● naughtinesse , which was in them by the instinct of the deuill , did driue them away from the sea of rome . for the papists in their sermons did call one another schismaticks , hereticks , sacrilegious false prophets , rauening vvolues , the beast and whore in the reuelation , c of these there were many in one part of france , who time out of mind had refused to beare the yoake of the pope , and therefore in the dayes of frauncis 1. king of france , by a bloudy decree of that king , but by the execution of one minerius a most cruell person ; merindol & cabriers , with some other villages about them , were sacked and destroyed , men , women , & children , being slaine ; yea , diuers of them being stripped starke naked first , and then murthered , and fortie poore women being burned in a ba●ne . i may adde vnto these many worthy men here & there dispersed , whereof all cryed out against the church of rome , and desired a reformation , and many of them apprehended , and deliuered to other the true meanes of iustification , which is the nearest point of saluation . the d author of the 16 century nameth about the yeare 1500 , and somewhat after ( but yet before luther ) baptista mantuanus , & franciseus picus , earle of mirandula , both which much inueighed agaiust the clergy and their whole practise . also one doctor keiserspergius ; another called iohn : hilton ; a third named doctor andreas proles , and sauanorola , all groning vnder the burthen of those times . the e oration of picus in the coūcel of later an is extant ; where besides his most bitter taxing of the filthy behauiour of the clergie , he vseth these words : pietie is almost sunke into superstition . how mantuan doth euery where pay the romanists , may appeare to those who read his workes . f but one place of him i will name ; — petrique domus polluta fluente marcessit luxu , ( nulla hic arcana reuelo nonignota loquor , liceat vulgata referre : sic vrbes populique ferunt , ea fama per omnem i am vetus europam ) mores extirpat honestos : sanctus ager scurris , venerabilis ara cynaedis seruit , honorandae divum ganymedibus aedes . quid miramur opes , recidiuaque surgere tecta ? thuris odorati globulos & cinnama vendit mollis arabs , tyr● vestes , venalia nobis templa , sacerdotes , altaria , sacra , coronae ignis , thura , preces , coelum est venale deusque . some of them i english thus . priests land now iesters vile doth serue , the altars bawds maintaine ; of holy churches of the gods , lewd ganymeds make their gaine . why doe we wonder that their wealth , and houses falne doe rise , sweet frankincense and cinnamon are the onely marchandise of the arabians ; and but clothes the tyrians vse to sell : but with vs churches , altars , priests , yeeld money well . things hallowed , crowns , fire , frankincense , the prayers which we make ; yea heauen , yea god , are saleable , if money wee may take . the opinions of sauanorola against popery are many ; and for them ( howsoeuer it be otherwise coloured ) he was burnt . in the matter of free h iustification he is cleare . and the same is written also of i trithemius , another learned man , who liued at that time . how in england christ had in all these times professors of the truth , i shall haue occasion to shew anon , when i come to speake of iohn wiclefe . in the meane while i shal not do amisse to mētion some other whowere between the daies of io. hus , & m. luther . a special oppugner of the papacy was the learned laurentius valla , a romane patritian , and canon of s. iohn of later an there . he wrote a k treatise of purpose against the forged donation of cōstantine . he prouounceth of his own experience , that the pope himselfe doth make war against peaceable people , & soweth discord between cities & princes . the pope doth both thirst after mens riches , and swalloweth vp his owne . he maketh gain of not only the common wealth , but the estate ecclesiasticall , and the holy ghost . the latter popes do seeme to labour this , that looke how much the ancient popes were wise , and holy , so much they will be wicked and foolish . he liued about the yeare 1420 , and for the freenesse of his speech and pen , was by the pope driuen into exile . about the same time liued archdeacon l nicholaus clemang●is , who rebuked many things in the ecclesiasticall state , and spake excellently in the matter of generall councels , and their circumstances , as hereafter may be declared . m petrus de aliaco , cardinall of cambray , gaue a tract to the councell of constance , touching the reformation of the church . there doth he reproue many notable abuses of the romanists , & giueth aduise how to represse them ; n there should not be multiplied , saith he , such varietie of images and pictures in the churches ; there should not be so many holy dayes ; there should not be so many new s t s canonized ; apocryphal writings should not be read in the churches on holy dayes ; o such numerosity & variety of religious persons not expedient ; there are so many orders of begging friers , that their state is burtheusome to men , hurtfull to hospitals , and to the poore ; few doe now study diuinity , for the abuse of the church of rome , who hath despised diuines ; all now turne to the law , & artes of gaine . he saith , that it was then a prouerbe , the church is come to that estate , that it is not worthy to be ruled , but by reprobates . he hath very much more , and in the p end concludeth , that as there were 7000 , who had not bowed to baal : so it is to bee hoped there bee some , which desire the reformation of the church . imagine whether this cardinall , if he had found company to haue ioyned with him , would not haue sayd much more . about that time liued leonardus aretinus , whose little book against hypocrites is worth the reading . so is the oration of antonius cornelius eynni●hanus , laying open the lewd lubric●●e of priests in his dayes . so doth he detect many abuses and errours , who wrote the ten grieuances of germany ; but those who compiled the hundred grieuances of the german nation , doe discouer many more . finally , he who list to see further , that god euen in those dead dayes , had diuers seruants , who by more then a glimpse did see the truth , and desired yet to be more plentifully instructed in religion , let him read the catologus testium veritatis , lately set out , and there he shall find diuers , whom i haue not named . by this time i trust it is manifest how fals a slander that of the papists is , that before the daies of m. luther , there was neuer any man of our religion . til the time of the councell of constance , this case is cleared . and beyond that , it is as easie to shew , that i. hus , & hierom of prage had their imediat antecessors in witnessing the faith of christ for they were instructed & much helped by the books of io. wiclif an english man ; and therefore saith platina , as spectators of wiclife , they were condemned in the councell of constance . aeneas syluius sheweth the meanes how those bohemians came to know the doctrine of wiclife , he saith thus , he who first raised vp the opinion of the hussites , had them frō oxford , carying thence into bohemia wiclefs books de realibus vniuersalib ' , coehleus , who by his good will would bee taken for a great defender of popery , giueth yet a larger testimony ; for he saith , that as a bohemian brought first into bohemia wiclefs books de realibus vniuer salibus ; so there was afterward one peter paine , a scholler of wiclefs , who after the death of his master came also into bohemia , and brought with him wiclef bookes , which were in quantity as great as s. austins works : many of these books did hus afterward translate into their mother tongue . in plaine termes , after this the author deliuereth it , that the hussites & thaborites were branches of wiclefe . and in the same book hus did commit spiritual fornication with many strangers , with wiclefist the dulcimist , &c. and in the next he auoucheth , that a hus & hierom tooke their heresies frō wiclef . and once againe he termeth the protestant germās b new wiclefists . what an opinion of this man i. hus had , may be fully seen by that wish of his , wherin he praied , c that he might there be where the soul of wiclef was . now what wiclef did teach , may be easily gathered , if by nothing else , yet by the deadly hatred which the romanistes did carrie towards him . the councell of constance did define him to be an heretike long after his death , & commanded that his bones should be taken vp & burnt . also pope iohn 23. in a general councell at rome , did before that time condemne him for an heretike ; which the hussites did but laugh at : but no man had a harder conceit of him then cochl . who sticketh not to affirme , that he thinketh that f the torments of wiclefe are greater in hell , then those of iudas , or nero. if god almightie had no better opinion of him , the man were in an ill case . but the best is , this cholerick criticke is not the iudge of all the world . he was angry belike , in behalfe of transubstantiation , concerning which he citeth this article of wiclefe : there was neuer a greater heresie , then that which putteth the accident without a subiect in the eucharist . but hee might haue named more points , wherein that holy man did differ from the church of rome . the councel of constāce picketh out 45. articles of his positions , which the learned reader may find there . yet doubtles many of them are falsly reported , which is a matter common with enemies of the truth , to peruert & misconster , that so they may more freely defame . there was one wilh . wideford , who tooke on him to answer 18. articles said to bee wiclefs , whence a man may gathersome of his doctrine . but that all things there said against him were not true , may wel be obserud out of the same answere , declaring that he had many things concerning wiclef ; but only by a a fame and report , and that is not the most certaine relater . what positions indeed he held , may be seen in m. fox , reporting his life and actions , as also in catalogo testium veritatis . and those who be not learned , may esteem of thē by the doctrine of io hu● before rehearsed , who by the testimony of the papists themselues , as i haue shewed , maintained the opinions of wiclef . now that this worthy champion & preacher of the gospel of iesus christ went not alone , but had many english men and women , who in his life time , & after his death beleeued as he beleeued , and professed as he professed , is in the next place to be shewed . among the chiefe of his fautours , were iohn of gant , ( as parsons the iesuite confesseth ) and lord henry percy ; the one of them duke of lancaster , the other marshall of england . m. fox citeth out a register of the archb. of canterbury , a mandate that the conclusions of wiclefe were preached in diuers and sundry places of the archbishops prouince , generally , commonly , and publikely . the same also is manifested by a letter of the archbishop to the bishop of lōdon ; and in a monition directed to oxford , where it is said , that certain conclusions hereticall and erronious were generally and commonly preached and published in diuers places of the prouince of canterbury . there be extant also letters of king richard 2. directly signifying so much . but there is nothing which may more amply testifie the spreading of his doctrine , then an act of parliament in the beginning almost of that young kings dayes , where it is related , that there were diuers preaching dayly , not onely in churches and church-yardes , but also in markets , faires , & other open places , where as great congregation of people is , diuers sermons containing heresies , and notorious errours . this putteth me in minde of a written book which once i saw , being a chronicle compiled by a monk of leicester abby ; who , writing of the time of the said king , reporteth at large , that the people in faires and markets , and riding by the way , and almost euery where , would talke of the scripture , and reprooue the customes of that time , as also the priests ; to the exceeding great trouble and offence of the clergie . this they might the rather do out of the word of god , because the scriptures were then translated into english , as may bee seene by diuerse copies written and remaining vnto this day , supposed to be so turned by wicklef . and it is very probable , that in leicester shire there were many of those of whom the monk leicestrensis spake , since , at lutterworth a towne in that county , iohn wicklef was beneficed . but the greatest part of this learned mans abode was at the first in the vniuersitie of oxford , where hee was both a doctor and reader in diuinity ; and therefore is to bee conceiued to haue many learned men partaking with him in his opinions . master fox saith ( out of the chronicle of s. albanes ) , that hee had a benefice in oxford ; of which he was depriued by simon sudbury , arch-bishop of canterbury . it may bee , this was nothing else but the mastership or chiefe gouernors place in bailioll colledge ; which i am perswaded that hee had , since there are yet two antient writings in the treasury of that colledge ( which i haue seene ) , which were made in the name of iohn wicklef , master of that house , and that in the daies of king richard the second . but while he liued , he had so many fauourers in that vniuersity , as that master robert rigges vice-chancelor , and the two proctors , took part with him ; as also nicholas herford , philip repington and iohn ashton , preachers and batchelors of diuinity , and grew into great question for his cause : where repington in the end beeing doctor , did slippe from him . yea , so farre was his doctrine there spred , that pope gregorie the eleuenth , in the yeere 1378 , did direct his b●ll to the vniuersity of oxford against the doctrine and articles of that learned man , euen rome it selfe ringing of his opinions in that vniuersity . neither did his followers dye when he himselfe died . but long after that , pope gregory the twelfth did direct downe another bull to oxford against wicklef ; in which he vsed the same words which his predecessors had , that is to say , that wicklef did follow the doctrine of marsilius of padua , and of iohn of gandune of vnworthy memory : which speech is worth the marking ; to shew , that this man also had his predecessors . the copie of this latter bull is to bee seene in the booke which that worthy louer of antiquities , master hare , gaue to our vniuersity : where also is to bee seene in the constitution of a prouinciall councell , celebrated at oxford , a sharp inquisition decreed by thomas arundel archbishop of canterbury , against all , euen the heads of colledges and halles , and others suspected of lollardy and wicleuisme . they might well suppose , that the students of that place were entertainers of such doctrine , since about that very time a testimoniall was giuen in their congregation house vnder seale , in fauour of iohn wicklef : where these words are among other ; god forbid , that our prelates should haue condemned a man of such honesty for an heretick . and yet in the councell of constance hee was condemned for such a one , forty yeeres after that he was dead and buried . but all would not serue to extirpate his bookes or memory out of our vniuersity : but euen in the daies of king edward the fourth , there were new letters directed to the gouernors of that place , by the king himselfe , to make search for his bookes , and to burne them . i haue in my custody a faire antient record of that vniuersity : which , by meanes of a good friend , i haue gained back to this place . and therein is a solemne letter directed from the conuocation of doctors and masters , to the king ; te●tifying , that according to their soueraigns commandement , they had with accurate diligence searched out the bookes and tracts of wicklef himselfe , and of reginald pecock , and had burnt them . so much adoe was it , and that in so long a space , to suppresse the head whereunto wicklefs doctrine was growne in the famous vniuersity of oxford . how elsewhere in this kingdome , his positions were spred , may be easily collected out of geffry chaucer : who , dying about the yeere 1400 , may rightly be supposed to haue liued while ioh. wicklef liued . this chaucer , who wanted neither wit nor learning , did at * large paint-out the pride , lasciuious , vicious , and intolerable behauior of the pope , cardinals and clergy , euen applying the name of antichrist diuers times vnto the romane bishop , and saying , that there were many in those daies of the speakers minde ; yea , finding fault with their faith , aswell as with their manners . the whole tale is wel worth the reading : but i will cite onely a few verses . peter was neuer so great a foole , to leaue his * key with such a * lorell , or take such cursed such a toole , he was aduised nothing well : i trow they haue the key of hell : their master is of that place marshall : for there they dressen hem to dwell , and with false lucifer there to fall : they beene as proud as lucifer , as angry , and as enuious : from good faith they beene full farre , in couetize they beene curious . to catch cattaile , as couetous as hound , that for hunger will yall : vngodly and vngracious and needily such falshod shall fool fall . this and a hundred times as much , he expresseth in a simple plough mans person ; as euidently inferring , that the husbandman & meanest country body of that time , by the reading and hearing of the word of god , could tell what was right and religious , and what otherwise ; yea , and complaine of the blindnesse , and impiety of the romanists in that age . but if wee would be aduertised , what euen lay-men in those times could doe , let vs looke into the declarations of walter bruite , who was in question for his opinion , before the bishop of hereford , in the yeere 1393 , and gaue vp a a little booke , containing those t●●ngs which he maintained . the true copy of that treatise is yet extant , and deserueth to bee read . there wee may finde these and the like positions : that bread remaineth in the sacraments after consecration ; that the pope is antichrist ; that nothing is to be beleeued , but what may bee confirmed out of the scriptures ; that the pope is the idoll of desolation , sitting in the temple of god ; that antichrist is not to come of the tribe of dan , neither onely to raigne three yeeres and a halfe : that the citie apoc. 17 , is rome ; that our iustification is freely by faith alone ; that the doctrine of the pope differeth from that of christ ; that miracles are no assurance of truth ; that men are not rashly to bee reputed saints ; that the pope hath not power beyond other bishops , neither is the head of the church ; that papists mistake the keys of binding & loosing ; that infants dying before baptisme , are not therefore damned ; that auricular confession is not prescribed in the scripture ; that the canon lawe is ill grounded ; that the pope deceiueth men in his pardons ; that absolution is to be sought at the hands of god onely ; that the priests vse vaine prayers in the masses ; that exorcismes and holy water are vnlawfull ; that priests doe sinne , who bargaine to sing for the soules of men departed ; that religious men and women are deuourers of widowes houses ; that selling of orders and dirges is naught ; that the pope is the beast with the two hornes like the lamb , while he challengeth the double sword ; that he seeketh to bee worshipped as god ; that dux cleri doth make vp the number 666 ; that worshipping of images is idolatry ; that temporall goods may be taken from the clergie offending . there was a great papist , one william wideford , whom before i mentioned , who giueth testimony to this treatise of bruite , whom hee calleth waltherus britta in latine ; and writing against wicklef , maketh twise mention of a booke of his owne , sent to the bishop of hereford ( dominum erfordensem he calleth him ) in confutation of the book of walter bruite . while i write these things , i cannot but think vpon the audacious absurdnes of an ignorāt popish doctor ; who blusheth not to vtter , that it is most manifest , that all in england were papists , without exception , from the first christening thereof , vntill this age of king henry the eight . he is doubtless an honest man , and worthie to bee trusted on his word . it is not onely manifest , but most manifest , not that the greatest part , but all ; yea , and because it shall not be scanted , all without exception , were papists , &c. were iohn wicklefs bones burnt , because he was a papist ? and were the bulls of the pope denounced against him for that cause ? and were the arch-bishop arundels constitutions against his followers so seuere , because they were papists ? the man is to be pitied for his simplicity . a man may know by the lawes , proclamations , letters and proceedings by the state , against some as against hereticks , as also by the records of bishops yet extant ; and by the manifold executions and burnings afterward , that euen in that deepe time of ignorance , england did giue most noble testimony of christs truth against popery ; euen so farre , as to the fiery triall . if the christian reader peruse the ecclesiasticall history of master fox , hee shall finde , how before the councel , william sawtree a priest was burnt , & after him iohn badby ; & that because they were wickleuists or lollards ( as they then called them ) , and not because they were papists . there are the reasons also and asseuerations of puruey and thorpe against poperie , with diuers other matters . and is it not to be thought , that the hereticks increased , when a synod was assembled in s. paul's church at london , into the which came twelue inquisitors , who in a former synod were appointed to sift and scan the writings of wicklef , wherein they found 246. conclusions ; all which they supposed to be heresie ? but it is plaine , that in the first yeere of king henry the fift , diuers were put to death as lollards . afterward the lord cobham was hanged , for a shew , as if hee had beene a kinde of traytor : but hee was then also burnt as a reputed heretick . so was one iohn claydon , for his conscience , consumed to ashes . not long after the comming of henry the sixt to the kingdome , besides diuers which were questioned and much troubled about religion , taylor and white , two priests , and houeden a citizen of london , were burnt : and some other followed afterward . neither did the daies of king edward the fourth , and of king henry the seuenth , escape without the martyrdome of sundry english , yeelding vp their liues for iesus christ his sake , and for the profession of the truth : the particular stories of whom may bee found in the author aboue-named . the clergy of those times did beare much sway with their princes , and left no meanes vnsought , no stone vnturned , to keepe vp the dignity and preeminence of their romish hierarchy , and the superstitious idolatry which then was in vse . now , if in the raigne of all these princes , so many were slaughtered for the testimony of a good conscience , how many weake brethren were there , who made not open profession of their faith ? & how many did there lie hid , diuers of them in probability hauing confederates , and some of them beeing priests , and therfore not vnlikely to haue learning both to confirme themselues in the truth , and such others as heard them ? thus haue i both in england and else-where brought vp the doctrine of the gospell , vntill the time of iohn wicklef , who flourished in the yeere 1371. heer it may please the reader to remember , that the iudgement ( before cited ) of two popes , was , that wicklef taught the doctrine of marsilius of padua , & of iohn of g●●dune . of the later of these there yet appeareth no monument written ; but he ioined in opinion with the former . but as for marsilius patauinus , our aduersaries cannot but acknowledge him to be a very learned man , after the measure of the age wherein he liued , which was in the yeere 1324. he wrote a book against the vsurped power of the bishop of rome ; which argument he entred into , in behalfe of the emperour lewes of bauiere , who was mightily layd-at by three popes successiuely . there the authour auoweth , as right and iust , the supreme authoritie of the emperour , displaying the iniquity of the popes vsurpation ouer christian princes , and generall councels : the book is worth the reading , to see whether all in times past did allow of the popes doctrine and proceedings ; or not : his opinions are these ; i that the pope is not superiour to other bishops , and much lesse to the emperour and ciuill magistrates ; 2 that things are to be decided by the scripture ; 3 that learned men of the laity haue voices in councels ; 4 that the clergie and pope himself are to be subiect to magistrates ; 5 that the church is the whole company of the faithfull ; 6 that christ is the foundation and head of the church ; and appointed no one to be his vicar ; 7 that priests may be maried ; 8 that saint peter was neuer at rome ; 9 that the popish synagogue is a denne of theeues ; 10 that the doctrine of the pope is not to be followed , because it leads to euerlasting destruction . in the time of this marsilius , liued the noble poet ●●ente , who wrote also a booke against the pope , concerning the monarchy of the emperour : but , for taking part with lewes bauiere , he was condemned for an heretike , and his book as hereticall . then also wrote occam directly to the same purpose : but for his labour therein , and his large reproofe of the papacie in other points , hee was excommunicated by the romane bishop : which he so much contemned , that hee not vnwillingly dyed vnder that sentence . about that time were heer and there dispersed sundry godly men , who saw more than the common sort touching religion ; as hayabalus a minorite , who frequently said in his sermons , that the church of rome was the whore of babylon , and that the pope and his cardinals were meere antichrists : which propositions were held somewhat before also by gerhardus and dulcinus , two learned men . this dulcinus may bee thought to haue many followers , since cochleus could say , that iohn hus committed spirituall fornication with the wickleuists and with the dulcinists . the same opinions concerning the pope and rome , did that rare man , franciscus petrarcha , seeme fully to embrace , as may appeare to any who will reade his workes , howsoeuer cardinall bellarmine labour to make the world beleeue otherwise , beeing desirous to haue vs thinke , that petrarch spake not against the pope , but some abuses in the court of rome . and to make it plaine , that it was not a slight conceipt , or onely in a few , that the pope was antichrist , and rome was babylon , apo. 17. god stird vp yet more in that age , who proclaimed the same matter ; as , petrus iohannes biraensis , or piranensis , who was a minorite ; and for teaching so , was digged vp after that he was dead ; and his body , after the sentence of clement the sixt , was burnt . a few yeeres after him , did iohannes de rupe-sciss● , a monk , teach the same doctrine ; which , as euery man may ghesse , doth ruinate the papacy in euery respect . iohannes gerson came not so farre , but saw in his age many horrible abuses of the church of rome , and in his writing spake liberally of it . and it did bite deepe , when hee disputed , that the pope might bee taken away safely from the church , and yet no danger follow of it . but let vs now goe a little higher . i mentioned before , how cochleus saith , that iohn . h●s took his doctrine from the wickleuists and the dulcinists . heare , i pray you , what he saith : hus did commit spirituall fornication with many aliens ; with the wickleuists , the dulcinists , with the leonists , the waldenses , the albingenses , and other of that sort , enemies of the church of rome . these leonists or poor-men of lyons , and waldenses , and albingenses , were the same men , but diuersly , on diuers occasiōs , tearmed by the roman synagogue which hated them . their opinion then did hus maintain . aeneas syluius doth also witnesse the same ; affirming , that the hussites did embrace the opinions of the waldenses . there you may see , that their doctrine was against the primacy of the pope , purgatory , and such like matters . genebrard , who saith , that these waldenses began , anno 1170. or , as some other will , 1218. rehearseth out of syluius these opinions of theirs ; that prayers for the dead , and purgatory fire , are an inuention of the priests couetousnesse ; that holy images are to be defaced ; that confirmation and extreme vnction are no sacraments ; that auricular confession is a trifling thing . hee who list , may see a great many more of their positions agreeing with the doctrine which we teach : which may well also be gathered from the iesuites themselues . for , that is the cause that bellarmine ioyneth these together as hereticks ; the berengarians , the petrobrusians , the waldenses , the albingenses , the wickleuists , the hussites , the lutherans , &c. and lewes richcome , another of that society , in his defence of the masse against the lord plessis , saith , that the ministers , for the confirming of their figuratiue sense in this is my body , haue none for their doctors , for their antients , for their fathers , but berengarius , zuinglius , caluin , carolastadius , wicklef , the albingenses , the waldenses . these waldenses then and albingenses are ours , by the confession of our aduersaries ; and of these long agone there were no small company . for , as du haillan , in the life of philip the third , king of france , speaketh ; being driuen from lyons in france , they withdrew themselues into lombardy : where they so multiplied , that their doctrine began to spread through italy , and came as farre as sicily . as the same author writeth , philippus augustus came to his kingdome , anno 1180. which is now more then foure hundred yeeres since : and in his time it was , that the albingenses did so increase in france , that the pope and princes adioyning were afraid of their number . hee who readeth the story of them , shall see that they are reported to haue held many grosse , wicked , and absurd opinions mingled with their true doctrine . but du haillan the best and iudicious chronicler of france , and no partiall witnesse in our behalfe ( since his profession touching religion , was such , that hee was imployed to write that story by king henry the third ) , had not so little wit , but that he perceiued those imputations to bee laid on them in odium , and of purpose to procure their defamation . see how wisely hee speaketh truth and his conscience ; and yet so coucheth it , that his fellowes might not bee iustly offended at his words . although , saith hee , these albingenses had euill opinions , yet so it is , that these did not stir vp the hate of the pope and of great princes against them so much , as their liberty of speech did , wherewith they vsed to blame the vices and dissolutenesse of the said princes and of the clergie , yea , to tax the vices and actions of the popes . this was the principall point which brought them into vniuersall hatred , and which charged them with more euil opinions then they had . now first , that they were not men infamous , either for their vile opinions or filthy conuersation ; and secondly , that they were not onely base and poore people , it is euident by this , that so many noble and worthy men took part with them , yea , to the aduenturing of their liues in their company , and for their behalfe ; as the counts or earles of tholouse , of coninges , of bigorr , of carmain , yea , the king of arragon . and when raymund , the earle of tholouse , was for his beliefe excommunicated by the pope , and a croisado was proclaimed against him and the albingenses , as if they had beene saracens or infidels , not onely the counties of foix and coninges came with all their strength to assist raymund , but alphonsus , the king of arragon , came in his owne person to his succour , as beeing his kinsman and his friend . and when all these were met together ; the report is , saith du haillan , that the armie of these hereticks did consist of about the number of one hundred thousand fighting men . these things beeing thus discouered by men of your owne part ; bee ashamed , you papists , and blush to spread among your simple and credulous followers , that neuer men did as we doo , nor beleeued as wee beleeue , before luther's time ; but that all christendome formerly liked of the papisticall doctrine and proceedings . but because you shall heare one testimony further touching these albingenses and waldenses , how honest and truely religious they were , i will cite what one reinerius , a man who did hate them , and was ( as it is supposed ) an inquisitor against them , reported concerning them , now 300 yeers ago , or thereabout . thus then , among much other matter , he saith of them : there were many sects of hereticks long ago : among all which sects that are or were , there is not one more pernicious to the church of god , than that of the poore men of lyons , for three causes . first , because it is of longer continuance : some say , that it hath endured from the time of syluester : others say , that from the time of the apostles . the second is , because it is more generall : for , there is almost no land into which this sect doth not creep . the third , that whereas all other , by the immanity of their blasphemies against god , doo make men abhorre them ; this of the lyonists , hauing a great shew of godlinesse , because they doo liue iustly before men , and doo beleeue all things well of god , and all the articles which are contained in the creed , onely the church of rome they doo blaspheme and hate : which the multitude is easie to beleeue . and as sampson ' s foxes had their faces seueral waies , but their tails tied one to another : so hereticks are diuerse in sects among themselues , but in the impugning of the church they are vnited . there can hardly be found a more honourable testimony out of the mouth or penne of a bitter and bloudy aduersary as he was , who wrote this & much more concerning those good seruants of god. we shall not need to ascend any higher , since hee giueth witnes of the antiquity of their profession long before his time : which otherwise to make plain , is as easie , as to deliuer that which hitherto i haue spoken . and it is not to bee conceiued , that petrus waldo ( of whom the waldenses tooke their name at lyons ) had his doctrine from no body , but that of himselfe he attained to his owne knowledge , since he was not deeply learned . berengarius indeed was onely called in question for denying transubstantiation in the sacrament ; but it may well bee thought , that in something else he dissented from the church of rome : and albeit by his owne weaknes , and the importunity of the clergie , he yeelded once or twice to recant and abiure the true doctrine which hee held , yet hee had many scholars , who by his example would not bee driuen from the right beleef which they had apprehended . these scholars were in france in great numbers , and in diuerse other lands : and genebrard cannot conceal it , but that about the yeer of our lord 1088 , basilius the monk did set on foot again the errour of berengarius . and might not the doctrine of both these bee sucked from bertram , who wrote so learnedly and so directly out of the scriptures and fathers against the reall presence and transubstantiation , that the index expurgatorius cannot tel what to make of him ? but the bishop of eureux , vnder the name of henry constable , tearmeth him the great fore-runner of all the sacramentaries : and richcome the iesuit disclaimeth him plainly as a sacramentarie heretick . then caluin and zuinglius were not the first who gain-said transubstantiation . before our ascending thus high , we might tell you of saint bernard : whom although it is likely , at the first dash , you will challenge as your owne ; yet , when you haue well aduised on him , you may let him goe again : for , albeit hee had his errours , which he suckt from the age wherein he liued , and we may not in all things subscribe to his iudgement , but say of him , as commonly it is spoken , bernardus non vidit omnia ; yet wee finde in him saniorem partem , a liberall profession of many good & sound points agreeable to the gospell . hee , for a fashion , acknowledgeth many matters to be in the pope , and giueth him greater titles than any papist can iustifie ; but it is , by such insinuation , to win him more attention frō eugenius : and then , hauing procured liberty , or rather taken it to himself , he schooleth and lessoneth the pope plainly ; shewing , that he liked not of their ordinary courses , neither did hee repute him to haue that preeminence or prerogatiue which his parasites did allow him . but , touching the matter of merit by good works , for iustification alone by christ , of free-will , for certain assurance of saluation in the death and by the strength of our sauiour , and for disliking then the vile life of the clergie , how cleer , how learned , how copious is hee ! these things wee teach together with him ; and , notwithstanding his other slips , we doubt not but his soule doth rest with the lord , god pardoning vnto him his errours and his ignorances ; which hee , being carried with the stream of that time ; did neuer discusse , but took them as they were deliuered to him , without scanning or examining . and to this good hope we are firmly induced by that saying of saint paul ; other foundation can no man lay , but that which is laid , which is iesus christ : and if any man build on this foundation , gold , siluer , precious stones , timber , hay or stubble , euery mans work shall bee made manifest : for , the day shall declare it , because it shall be reuealed by fire ; and the fire shall try euery mans work of what sort it is . if any mans work that he hath built-vpon , abide , he shall receiue wages : if any mans workburn , he shall lose , but he shall be safe himself . he held the foundation of iustification onely by faith in christ ; and that our best deeds are but via regni , non causa regnandi ; the way to the kingdome , not the cause of raigning : and for that cause , we doubt not but his soule is safe , though his hay and stubble of praying to saints , and such other stuffe as cannot endure the fire of the holy ghost's triall , doo burn and consume . and this is our iudgement touching many other both before and after the time of saint bernard ; that , holding christ the foundation aright , and groning vnder the heauy burden of humane traditions , satisfaction , and other popish trash , they , by a generall repentance from their errors and lapses knowne and vnknowne , and by an assured faith in their sauiour , did finde fauour with the lord. such as these were we hold to be god's good seruants , to bee of the number of the elect ; and , propter sanioren et meliorem partem , for their sounder and better part , to bee of that church , whereof we are to be members ; of that body , whereof ( by the grace of christ ) we are a portion . and in this respect our settled and resolued iudgement is , that when it is asked , where our church in former ages was ; we may , besides that which we haue formerly answered , truly say , that it was in england , in france , in spaine , in italy , yea , in rome it selfe : spiritus vbi vult spirat , the holy ghost breatheth where it pleaseth : for who cannot conceiue by the writings of many in former ages , or by such touches as others doe giue concerning them , that diuers , who liued neerest the whore of babylon , did most detest her abomination ; and , finding that the weaknes and impurity of her doctrine could not truely satisfie the hungry and thirsty soule , did , according to that knowledge which christ out of his word reuealed vnto them , seek some means which was not ordinarily professed in that time ? and if it be asked , who they were , and how they could lie hid from the world ? it may truly be answered , that their case was like the case of them in the daies of elias , who were not knowne to that state which would haue persecuted them . now , why should not wee think , but as god had his secret and inuisible company at that time , in that most idolatrous countrey : so , in the time of the deepest darknesse , hee had those which saw light ; his christian children , among antichrists brood ; such as embraced true religion ; among the superstitious ? so that italy , and rome , and these westerne parts , had some of gods saints in all ages , who , like sea-fish , most fresh in the salt water , and beeing remoued in their affections , though not in their persons , did with lot vex their righteous soules in the middest of a spiritual sodom , and kept themselues vnspotted of the world . and yet it is not to bee taken , that wee coarctate the church within those prouinces onely which looked towards the see of rome ; but know , that god had thousands of his elect elsewhere . christians haue bin in india , euen by perpetuall descent , from the daies of the apostles ; and so in africa among the abissines , in infinite and huge companies ; besides such as haue continued in armenia , asia the lesser , aegypt , but especially in the greeke church , which was neuer so much as in shew extinguished ; and from whom the russians and muscouites had their faith. our popish lads would gladly shut all these out of christs fold , because they acknowledge not the bishop of rome for their vniuersall pastor : but wee should doe wrong to almighty god , to pinne his iudgement vpon the popes sleeue , and to offer to pull from him so many ample churches ; whereas charity and common sense might put vs in minde , that he might there haue thousands throughout all ages . looke to these places , ye papists , and imagine , that if there had beene none but these ; yet the words of the scripture , which in generality speake of a spouse , had beene true : and christ had there had his body on earth , and the church had not beene vtterly extinguished , if neither we nor the synagogue of rome had beene extant . but in as much as it cannot be denied , but that the prophesies concerning antichrist , doe most touch the westerne world , rome beeing by the holy ghost euidently designed to bee the seat of the whore of babylon , as also because our romish standard-bearers are more willing to talke of those parts then of any other , i will once returne againe to the countreys neere adioyning . then , in some parts of christendome , how many men were there in all ages , who loathed both the see of rome , and the whole courses of it , as the israelites did loath the aegyptians bondage ? mathew paris alone giueth as many notable experiments that way , as relating the acts of the emperour frederick , who put out diuers declarations in detestation of the pope ; and adding elsewhere , further of his owne , that pope gregory did absolue from the oath of fealty , all who were bound vnto the emperor ; perswading them , that they should be faithfull in vnfaithfulnesse , obedient in disobedience . but so much deserued the romane churches lewdnesse , which is to be execrated of all men , that the popes authority did merit to bee harkened vnto by few or none . he reporteth also of a certain carthusian monk at cambridge , who cryed out against the pope , and said , that hee was an heretick , and that the churches were profaned ; and of robert grosthead , bishop of lincolne , who was a man both holy and learned in his time . this lincolniensis , while he liued , had many combates with the bishop of rome , and openly resisted his barbarous tyranny in domineering so farre in england , as to enioyne prouision of the best benefices to be taken vp for italian boyes ; which for a prebend in his church of lincolne , hee would not yeeld vnto ; and for that cause was by the pope excommunicated . but when hee was dying , hee most bitterly inueighed against the romane bishop and the ecclesiasticall persons , as the most wicked men that did liue . in the same author you may also finde the conceit which the most reuerend arch-bishop of york , sewaldus , had of them and their proceedings . what should i mention ioachim , who said , that in his time antichrist was already born , and was in the city of rome ? or that bishop of florence , who liued about the yeer 1100 , and did vse to say , that antichrist was then in the world ? which moued pope paschalis so much , as that hee thought fit to enquire of him in a councell , and did there castigate him for it . notable in this kinde are the contentions of philippus pulcher ▪ the king of france , and his whole clergy , against boniface the eightth . i might adde to these , petrus de brus , and many other learned men , who laid the axe to the very root of popery , and some in set treatises oppugned one of their documents , and some assaulted other ; but that the writer of the catalogus testium veritatis , as it is lately enlarged , and master fox , and master bale , and diuers other , haue largely handled this ▪ to the reading of whose bookes , i doe referre them who in particular desire to bee more aduertised in this behalfe . now , if these things doe appeare much by their own witnesse , and by the confession of papists themselues , as also by such few records , as ( by gods prouidence so disposing ) doe yet remaine ; how many illustrious arguments might there haue beene of the confession of our faith , if the clergy and magistracy of those darke times had not burned and suppressed all things which made against them , as i shewed before , touching the bookes of iohn wickles & reinald pecock in oxford ? the clergy in those dayes did almost rule all : and they had the custody of all libraries , to ransack at their pleasure , or to put in and pull out : and they had power to search poore mens houses , and to destroy what was thought fit by them to bee destroyed . but god , who would not haue his truth vtterly burned or buried in ashes , suffred a remnant to remaine , yea , and that in england ; albeit potydor virgil , with an italian trick of his owne , did heer consume and destroy many worthy and antient monuments . by this time , i may wel suppose , that some vehement papist is euen ready to swell , with his belly full of exceptions against these things heer said . and first he will begin & say , that we rake together , as the ancestors and forerunners of our faith , such as were notorious hereticks ; as wicklef , or hus , or the waldenses , men condemned by popes or generall councels : and hereticks , as campian telleth vs , are the dregges , and the bellows , and the fewell of hell . these , as our papists commonly say , are already fire-brands of hell , and frying there in flames . it is no rare matter with the synagogue of rome , to pronounce such sentences as these are . our rhemists , by their consistoriall or imperiall decree , haue defined , that caluin and verone are not onely hereticks , but reprobates , for writing so as they haue done , touching the article of predestination : yea , they call master beza , a reprobare also , although hee were then aliue , and long after too ; how ●oeuer the iesuites some few yeeres since , did , by a most ridiculous pamphlet or other newes , spread it in france and italy , that hee was then dead , and that dying had recanted his religion , and was returned to the romish faith ; which also geneua did by his example . it is no newes with iesuites to lie , and therefore master beza must beare with them ; and so had he neede to doe with the rhemists also , who got hastily into gods chaire , and there concluded him to bee a reprobate . but indeed these good christians before-named , of whom many lost their liues for the maintenance of gods truth , were hereticks in such a manner , as christ was said to bee a blasphemer ; who indeed was both called so , and condemned to bee such a one , by the counsell of the high priests , scribes and rulers of the synagogue . we doe not beleeue , that a●l those are hereticks , whom your papists will so call or account : for , you giue vs that name , which , maugre your malice , you shall neuer bee able to proue against vs. they are truely orthodox and right catholiques , who teach nothing but that whereof they haue euident warrant out of the word of god. and this wee haue , as hath beene oft shewed by men of our side , and in that question wee are ready at all times to iump with you , for any part or all the doctrine wee professe . with saint paul therefore wee say , that , after the way that you call heresie , so worship wee the god of our fathers . the same which you maliciously and pres●mptuously tearm schisme and heresie , is that , whereupon , vnder our blessed sauiour , wee rest our soules ; and by the confession thereof , wee hope to bee saued in the day of the generall iudgement . do not you therfore take that for granted , which is so highly questioned betwixt vs and you ; but rather , if you can prooue our prof●ssion to bee hereticall , by gods grace we shall not shrink at any of your biggest obiections . yea , but say you further , the writers which make mention of these your predecessors , doo brand them with the holding of some most grosse and damnable doctrine , which you your selues will not auouch . my answer is , that wee our selues doo easily beleeue so much : for , did malice , i pray you , euer say well ? the apostles were at more times , and in more places than one , charged with many accusations ; which yet , in truth , were but calumniations : the old christians in the primitiue church were slandered , to vse incestuous company each with other , like oedipus , and to eat vp mans flesh at the banquet of thyestes ; yea , their owne * seruants for fear were induced to lay such matters to their charge . athanasius was accused to haue cut off ones hand : and a harlot to his face would haue calumniated him to haue committed fornication with her . this practice was neuer more liberally frequented , than by the enemies of the gospell in the late daies of popery . you may remember what i cited before out of du haillan , concerning matters falsely obiected to the albingenses . there is extant an excursitory oration of the waldenses ; wherein they say , that , for that their faith which they were ready to iustifie , they were condemned , iudged , captiuated , and afflicted ; and afterward that they were called hereticks : but in their confession they haue it directly ; of these criminations whereof we are blamed of tentimes , we are nothing at all guilty . the pope and his chaplains were fell & furious against them , because they did bite so neer : and therefore , to disgrace them both in present and to posterity , they held it fit , that by speech , preaching and writing , it should be divulgated , that they taught monstrous blasphemies ; that by that meanes the credulous people might be preiudicate ; and so not onely frighted from hearkning to them , but bee much the readier to ioyne in the prosecution of them to prison and to death . but what they indeed held , is declared before . when iohn hus was at the councell of constance , hee did openly call god to witnes , that hee did neither preach nor teach those things which his aduersaries did obiect against him , neither that they euer came into his minde . neither is it to be maruelled , that they did load his scholars with the like false accusations , when their malice was such towards them , as that they burnt many thousands of them in barnes : which was done by the treachery of one mainardus . in other places the romanists haue still held the same course of slandering : which caused the protestants to professe in the diet at augusta , that diuers opinions were falsely reported vp and down , which wrongfully were fathered on them ; and that those were not only estranged from the holy scriptures , but that they were abhorrent euen from common sense . and is it not probable , that long since , when much darknesse did couer the face of the earth , that few had grace to perceiue their dooings , and fewer had authority to question their doctrine , the pope-holy clergie , which hated the true gospellers with all their harts , would pay them with vile & odious reports ; when in this age , wherein god hath affoorded more plentifull meanes to discouer their false-hoods , they doo dare , not onely in their sermons , or in their secreter whisperings , but in their printed books , to proclaim abroad concerning vs , most false and vngodly calumniations and imputations ; as , that wee doo teach all loosenesse of life and libertinisme by this our new gospell ; that we maintain , that all sinnes are equall ; that we hold it as a maxime , that god is the author of sinne ; and whatsoeuer it pleaseth master campian and his fellowes to inuent and deuise touching vs : whereas we vtterly disclaim these and the like positions , as execrable and vngodly ; yea , that mounti-bank , which once before i mentioned , hath not blushed to asseuere , that we so teach , as that by our doctrine the protestants are bound in conscience , neuer to ask god forgiuenesse of their sinnes ; and that they are bound in conscience to auoid all good works ; as also , that we make god the only cause of sinnes ; and hold , that god is worse than the diuell . so shamelesse was this fellow growne , that hee neither knoweth nor careth what hee saith : and yet many a poor papist , abused and gulled by the diuels deceiuing instruments , doth swallow such gudgeons , and runneth away with these things ; beeing as verily perswaded of them , as that the gospel is true . such a hand the seminary priests haue ouer their disciples , that they may not read our books , to see whether these obiections be true or no ; neither may they hear ought to the contrary . now , if they thus vse vs , who can speak for our selues ; will any man maruell , that those who professed the verity two or three hundred yeers since , doo taste of the malignant aspersions of those times ? the romanists , notwithstanding all this which hath been said , doo not yet so leaue vs ; but once more further adde , that none of all those which hitherto haue been named , or can be named , but in some knowne , consessed , and vndoubted opinions , did vary from you : and therefore they and you may not bee said to bee all of one church . our masters of rhemes doo think , that this lieth hardly vpon vs : and therefore thus vauntingly they vrge ; that they will not put the protestants to prooue , that there were 7000 of their sect , when their new elias luther began : but let them proue , that there were seuen , or any one , either then , or in all ages before him , that was in all points of his belief . what the old fathers taught , we may haue time heerafter to shew : but for other of later time , it is most easie to manifest , that all those whom before i haue named , did generally , for all main matters , teach the same that we now doo teach . there is no papist , who can truely , and without calumniating them , or faining things vpon them , demonstrate , that in causes which touch the substance of faith , or the foundation of christian religion , they did dissent from vs. hee that will try this , let him look on the declaration of walther bruite , which i before mentioned ; and let him read it set down by himself , and not reported by other . and what did that learned lay-man deliuer there , which was not the belief of wicklef , and the rest of the english , professing the gospell in those times ? but if there bee , in some petty matters , yea , questions of some reasonable moment , difference of opinion between them and vs , shal wee not therefore bee of the same church with them , or they with vs ? yes verily : for , otherwise many of the antient fathers should not bee of the communion of saints , or catholick congregation , with those who came after them , and amended their errors : for , was not lactantius spotted with the millenary infection ? and cyprian with the matter of re-baptizing ? had not austen an opinion of the necessity of the eucharist to bee administred to children ; and that infants , being dead without baptism , were not onely depriued of the fruition of heauenly ioies , but were damned to the pit of hell , and to euerlasting torments ? and what man , religiously affected , will suspect , but that although s. cyprian and the other african bishops , assembled in a councell , did , concerning the new baptizing of those who were already baptized by hereticks , determine clean contrary to cornelius and the rest of the italian bishops , yet they should not bee of the same faith in generall , and of the same holy church whereof cornelius was ? saint austen can thus write concerning cyprian : whereas that holy man cyprian ( thinking otherwise of baptisme then the matter was which was afterward handled , & with most diligent consideration established ) did remain in the catholique vnity ; both by the plentifulnesse of his charity , a recompence was made ; and by the sickle of his suffering , there was a purging . in another place hee saith , the authority of cyprian doth not terrifie me , but the humility of cyprian doth refresh mee . he meaneth , that if that worthy man had liued to haue seene more light in that argument , or to behold what the succeeding time had reuealed and concluded in that behalfe , hee would , in great humility and meeknes of heart , haue conformed himself , and yeelded vnto it : which may iustly seeme for a true defense of the waldenses , io. wicklef , iohn hus , or any other seruant of god , who might seeme , in matters of small moment , to vary from vs. and thus i trust , that by this time it appeareth to euery one who will not wilfully cloze his eies , and stop his eares against an apparant truth , that god hath at all times had his children holding the verity of christian religion , and not approouing of the filthy superstitions and sacrilegious idolatries of the abominable antichrist of rome : so that it is a most fond collection , that either the popish conuocation or confusion are the right and vndoubted spouse of iesus christ ; or else , that for one thousand yeeres together there was no church in the world . they doat much vpon themselues , and on the opinion of their beauty , who , in such intolerable deformities , doe predicate and magnifie their synagogue , as the vnspotted wife & mysticall body of our most blessed sauiour . truth it is , that , intending to blinde the ignorant , and to abuse the simple , they labored , by all externall pomp and shew , to giue to their hypocrisie & outward formality a settled opinion of pietie & sanctitie : and for that cause , there was no corner of the braine of man , or rather of men , in many ages succeeding together , vnsought , to procure glory to that which in it selfe was very vnglorious . their care therefore was , to conuert the eies of all persons on their externall hue , which was maruellously adorned and garnished to the sense with their crosses set vp or carried before some prelates , with the triple crowne of their popes , in the red hats of their cardinals , the precious attire of some in their churches , their prodigious apparel abroad , the diuers color'd couls of their monks , such singing & chanting with organes , such ringing of bells , such trimming of images , and many more such sensible matters , as that neither the iewes nor the gentiles had the like . and among al this , if true religion in diuers were present , it is not to be maruelled at , if shee were scant seene , or if no notice were taken of her for her poore , and vntrimmed , or vngarnished hue , for her naked simplicity , and vnpainted integrity . it was the commendation giuen to salomons beloued , by whom the church is represented , that the kings daughter is all glorious within ; her beauty consisting of purity in faith , verity in doctrine , seuereness in behauiour , innocency , patience , and such like spirituall complements . and these are as much contemned in others , by the antichristian rabble , as they are neglected in themselues : whereas their externall pomp , on the contrary side , is as much despised by the lord , as it is magnified in their fleshly and carnall imaginations . the lord direct vs in his own waies , and call home such as wilfully , or by ignorance , haue gone astray ; that at length they may bee reduced to the sheepfold of christ iesus : to whom , with his father and the blessed spirit , be praise for euermore . amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a17020-e50 l. 12. confess . c. 25. erasm. ad. * pers. sat. nunc in decursu lampada trado , &c. lucret. et quasi currentes vitalem lampada tradunt . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . micah 7. 8. 2 thes. 2. notes for div a17020-e380 sect. 1. a in antid . matt. 24. b de rom. pontif. 4. 4. sect. 2. c psalm 12. 1. d 1 sam. 22. 18 e esay 1. 5 , 6. f esay 1. 29. g ierem. 5. 1. h ezek. 22. 30. i mich. 7. 1. sect. 3. k 1 king 19. 18 rom. 11. 4. l ezek. 9. 4. apoc 7. 3. m 2 tim. 2. 19 n 2 kin. 21. 4 , 5 o 2 kings 16. 11. p verse ● . q 2 kings 17. 29. r esay 1. 1. rom. 11. 4. t psal. 13● . 14 u 2 chro. 33. 4. sect. 4. a math. 23. 24. 2 mach. 4. 8. 24. c. 11. 3. ioseph de bell. lud . 4. 5. & lib. 5. 9. b iohn 11. 51. c math. 2. ● . d luke 12. 22 rhem ●annot , ibidem . e math 26. 56. f iohn 19. 25. nich. de clem. de mater . concil . g acts 1. 13. actes 8. 2. sect. 5. i luke 18. 8 k 2 thes. 2. 3. rhemes . in 2. thess. 2. ● . m ap●c . 12 ▪ 6. n in prefat . super apocal. o in argument . apocal & in apoc. i. 1. p rom. 4. 6. q ioh● 11. 15. r apoc. 12. 6. f mark. 13. 22. t apoc. 11. 2 , 3. & 12 ▪ 6. & 13. 5. & dan. 7. 25 sect. 6. u math. 16. 18. w tertull , exhort , ad chastit . x math. 18. 20 a phil. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 b de baptism . contra donatist . 6. 4. idem spiritus 〈◊〉 ea dimit tit ( i. peccata ) quod datus est 〈◊〉 sanctis , &c. c apoc. 13. 16. d cap. 17. 2. & 21. e cap. 8. 3. f s. ambr. epist. lib. 5. 31. g s. august . in psal. 101. h serm. 134. de temp●re . i hebr. 11. 1. sect. 7. k hiero aduersus luciferi●nos . l theod. histor. eccles. l. 2. 16. m in catalog . scripter . eccles. n bellar. de pont. rom. 4. 9. o apoc. 12. 6. sect. 8. p camp. ref. 10. quint. euangely pr●sessores . q histor. l. 13. r in vita vvenceslai . histor. cochlei de hussitis . histor. de actis & scriptis mar. luther . l. 2. a iobannes fox . in hist. eccles. b cochleus . l. 2. c ibidem . l. 3. e cochl . lib. 8. f l. 12. g centur. 16. l. 1. 20. sect. 9. h cochleus l. 1. m lbide● . n in tabulo concilii ante platine hist. o ioh. fox . in concil constant. histor. p cochl . l. 4. ibidem . zisca ad locum quem cruci● appellant profectus est , ibi supra quadragint a millia vnorum ex●ere● icis conuenere . q cochleus l. 5. & pe●us messias in sigismundo . r l. 5. vix vlla graeco● um , hebreo●●que . aut latin●ou●● historia talem ref ducem qua●●s zisca fui● . s l. 6. t ibid. quis putasset quadraginta millia aequitum germanicae nationis tam leuiter compelli posse &c. nolo hic temere iudicare sciens iudicia dei esse oc . culta , &c. u in tahul . ante platin. x sess. 13. y lib. 4. chronog . y l. 7. z l. 8. a ibidem . histor. bohem. c. 35. & 50. 〈◊〉 . 130. c ad leonard●● aretinum . d mortē ala●ri vultu vt ait poggius , non so 〈◊〉 perpeti , sed etiam appetiuisse visus est . c●cb . lib. 3. e l. 2. f l. 1. g l. 4. nacti episcopum archi●episcopi pragensis suff aganeū ordinouerum per eum clericos , &c h coch. lib. 5. concil , pragens . hussitarum ita incipit , in nomine dom. amen . incipit sancta syn●dus hibita & rite celebrata anno 1421. sub conrad . &c. conradus archiep . pragensis cum zisca & hussitis scribit ●d principē , &c. i ibidem . k l 8. scholare die caesis pragens . vtri ▪ tam sub vna quam sub ● traque communi●ca● es specie habilitate &c. pr●supposita ad s● cros crdine● psomoueantar & ordine●tur . l l. 10. m l. 11. n l. 2. georgius girziko de cunstat , & podiebrat quem acneas poggi siratium v●●●re solebat , vnctus est in regem bohemis , &c. post , 〈◊〉 vna defi●sset labes hussititae sect● , in●er optimo● reges haud immeritò commemorari possit . o ibidem . p apud plat. q cochl . l. 12. sect. ii. m hist. bohem. c. 50. n ep. 130. o coch. hist. lib. 1. p l. 2. q l. 3. r l. 4. f l. 5. zisca vno impetu● insignes ●asilicas , & am pla monastéria quae in bonorem beat● maria , &c dedicata erant , disiecit tanquom non sit fas alteri , quam soli deo basilicas , a●t templa consecrare . t artic. 57. u artic. 55. sect. 12. anno 1517. a respons . ad doctor●m august . b vvaldensium confessio in fasciculo rerum expetend . & fugiend . c seiden . li. 16. d luea● os●ander . lib. 1. c. 8. e oratio ad leo●●● decimum . f calamitatum . 3 guicciar ● . lib. 3. h in ps. 52. i catalog . testi●● veritatu , lib. 19. sect. 13. k co●●● em●●titam donationē const. l de ann●tis non soluendis . m de reform . eccles. n cap. 3. o c. 4. p c. 6. in hypocritas libellus . oratio od clerū coloniensem . decem grauami . na germaniae . l. 19. sect. 14. in iohn 24. histor. bohem. c. 35. hist. de huss●tis , lib. 1. scripsit mihi quidā ex anglia epis● opus esse sibi ad●uc bodie duo maxima volum●a vvitlefi quae mol● sua videantur ●quari opera beati , august . l. 1. hus forni ca●us est spiritu aliter cum ali enigenis plurimis cum vviclefistis cum dulcinistis , &c. l 2. a l. 3. b l. 6. c l. 2. miser hus optauit animam suā fore ihi est anima vviclefi . s●ss . 8. l. 2. f multa g●autora ●●diderim esse vviclefi tbrmeta , quā●uit apud infero● vel scele ratissim●rum hominum , iudae prod● o●s christi & neronus ●●irstianorum persecu . ●●is , &c. l. 2. sess. 8. respons ad 18. artic. vviclefi in f●●cic rerum expe●end . a in fine artic . 10. v●rg . aen●ad . l. 18. sect. 15. apolog ▪ hicra●c . c. 1. ex regist. g. courtney . ad cancell . ox. ad arthiepi●c cant. & cancell . ox. anno. 5. rich. 2. c. 5. in manu magistri wirley . in fine r. richard● 3. in arch uis coll●dg . bali●l . vid. 10. fox . in vit● wicklef . a 〈◊〉 . richara●● 2. sub rege hen. 4. l. 2. in literis reg. henrici 4. anno 1406. octobr. 5. in operib . i. hus. anno 1476. sect. 16. * in a ploughmans tale . the apostle . * which papists say , he hath of heauen gate . * as the pope . ex registro episcops herefor● contra 18. articul . wicklef . in articul . 11. & 12. sect. 17. a● . 1400. sub reg. he● . 4. sub reg . henrie . 5. sub. hen. 6. sect. 18. greg. 11. greg. 12. catal. testium ●esitatis .. l. 18. defensor pacis . petrus messias in ludo●●co . catalogus ●estium verit●●● . l. 18. ibid. ex . hen. de erford . histor. hussit . l. 2. epis. 20. et in poe●i italic● . in appendice ad libros de rom. pontifice . c. 20. genebrard , chron. l. 4. anno 1327. catal. ●estium veritatis . l. 18. academ . les . christ. clas . 15 de auseribilitate pap● ab ecclesia . sect. 19. hist. bohem. c. 35. chron. l. 4. catal. testium veritatis . l. 15. in pr●sat . general . controuers . l. 1. c. 19. hist. l. 12. l. 9. l. 10. ibid. mat. paris i● guliel . cōquaest . contin . hist. de gestis anglor . lib. 3. cap. 7. malmis . l. 3. chron. l. 4. index in bertram resp . ad dan. til●s . fol. 158. la. sainct . mess● de clar . l. 2. de consider . ad eug●n . l. 2. 8. ser. 61. in cant. ep . 190. de grat . & lib. arbitrio . ser. 1. de septem misericordi●s . 1 cor. 3. 11 degrat . & libero arbit●io . sect. 21. iohn ● . 8. 1 kings 19. 18 2. pet. 2. 8. iam. 1. 27. os●rius l. 3. degestis eman●el . li. 9. dam ▪ à goes . de mori● . ae●●i●●um . sect. 22. apoc. 17. 18. in hen. 3. ibidem . ibidem . lincoln . epist. math●● paris in h. ● . 3. ibidem . houede● in parte 2. pla●in . in paschael . 1. pap. mas. on in bo● . 2. in histo● . eccle. sias . in catal . script . brit. l●ur . humsr. i●suit●sm . part . sect. 23. r●●ion . 10. in rom. 11. 33. ann● 159● . vid. epist. beza ad stuckium . mat. 26. 65. acts 24. 14 ▪ sect. 24. acts 16. 20. and 17. 7. 2 cor. 12. 16 eus. ●ccl● . hist. l. 4. 7. * l. 5. 1. socrat. 1. 20. theod. eccl . hist. l. 1. 30. infasciculo rer● expetend . conses . walden . cocleus histor . hussit . l. 2. cum articulos istos nunquam tenuerim quos falsi te●●es c●●ra me 〈◊〉 , se●●●ont aria tenuer●m , ●oc●erim , 〈◊〉 rimque , 〈◊〉 praedicau●rim , &c. l. 8. sl●idencomment . l. 8. certain articles or forcible rea●ons at antwerp , 1600 sect. 25. in rom 11. 4. in fox eccles . story . diuin . ●istitut . l. 7. c. 14. aug. ep●st . 48. ep. 106. & 28 con● . carth. in cyp. oper . de bapt . cont . donatis . l. 1. l. 2. sect. 26. prefat . catal . testium veritat . psal. 45. 13. i. question: why are you a catholic? the answer follows. ii. question: but why are you a protestant? an answer attempted (in vain) / written by the reverend father s.c. monk of the holy order of st. benedict ... cressy, serenus, 1605-1674. 1686 approx. 228 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 39 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-11 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a34972) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 49046) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 812:5) i. question: why are you a catholic? the answer follows. ii. question: but why are you a protestant? an answer attempted (in vain) / written by the reverend father s.c. monk of the holy order of st. benedict ... cressy, serenus, 1605-1674. cressy, serenus, 1605-1674. why are you a catholic? [4], 72 p. [s.n.], london : 1686. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose 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a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng catholic church. protestantism -controversial literature -early works to 1800. 2003-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-08 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-09 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2003-09 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion ✚ i. question . why are you a catholic ? the answer follows . ii. question . but why are you a protestant ? an answer attempted ( in vain . ) 1 pet. 3. 15. be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you , with meekness and reverence . writen by the reverend father s. c. monk of the holy order of st. benedict , and of the english congregation . london , printed in the year , mdclxxxvi . ✚ to the christian reader . it was in obedience to the desire of an honourable friend that this following discourse was written ; that it was confined to such narrow lounds ; and that it is now published . he thought it requisite that such catholics as are not at leasure to read volums of controversies , should be instructed how to give a rational account to modern sectaries , why they are catholics ? and he thought also that to justifie such their profession , a long discourse would not be necessary . this occasioned the following answer to the question proposed in the title : which answer , if rational and satisfactory , will prevent or rather determine , all other particular questions about religion , the debating of which furnishes the world with books to fill great libraries . but what fate soever shall befal this answer in the esteem of readers , certain it is that the method of it is unquestionably useful , by which is shewed that the controversie about the church is first of all to be seriously debated : because what party soever shall be able to give convincing proofs that their church is the same , or a true member of the same church which we believe in the creed , shall thereby evince that all accusations laid against her are false and groundless , and all separation from her damnable . and on the other side it will be to no purpose to examine the tenets of a church already prejudged to be a false church , that is , to want the inseparable marks of a true church , signifyed by these words in our creeds , one , holy , catholic and apostolic church , denoting unity of faith , sanctity of discipline , universality and uninterrupted succession of teachers and governors from the apostles , to be necessary signs of a true church . now for as much as regards the following discourse , if any one shall think fit to undertake a reply to it ; he may please to take notice , that ( unless he intend to make quarrels useless and endless ) the only proper reply will be his answer to another like question , which he may suppose to be proposed to him by a catholic , viz. how can a protestant think himself safe in a congregation which never was incorporated in any church whatsoever existent before the ( pretended ) reformation ? this question , if seriously and rationally resolved , and especially if the resolution of it be justifyed by authorities of ( by us all approved ) antient catholic doctors , it will then only be esteemed of considerable force against this following answer to the question , why are you a catholic ? now in this renewed impression , the author thought expedient that such a second question should be proposed , as by a catholic to a protestant , demanding reciprocally of him , why are you a protestant ? to which question an answer is framed , the most suitable to protestants grounds , that the author could devise . he is not ignorant that this fashion of writing controversies dialogue-wise is oft obnoxious to exceptions , and not unjust suspicions of partiality and prevarication : for indeed we sometimes see dialogues , in which the authors ( who may make their pretended adversaries , to speak as they themselves please ) do put foolish answers into their mouths , and then laugh at them : presuming thereby to have gained a victory . but such a poor shift as this the author protests against . the allegations against the roman church brought in by the protestant , are , in the authors opinion , the most considerable that are to be found among protestant controvertists , which allegations he is permitted also to deliver in a stile , for its sharpness , becoming a protestant now a la mode . true it is , the author could not possibly make him answer pertinently and directly to the question . but whose fault is that ? no such answer , with tolerable satisfaction , as far as the author could inform himself , could be found in rerum natura . now if any protestant reader shall dislike the author's introducing his protestant sometimes relenting , or convinced that some catholic doctrines are too oft falsly and maliciously represented by adversaries , the authours excuse must be , that he having according to his conscience demonstrated so much , his duty was to shew his adversary a rational , honest man , that is , such a one as will be satisfyed with reason : and indeed with no other is he willing to treat . however , if this do not content the reader , he may do well to frame a better protestant answer to the general question [ why are you a protestant ? ] but except such his answer be indeed precisely pertinent , and proper to the clearing his church from the charge of schism , either by shewing that she is indeed a true member , incorporated into the body of the catholic church , believed in our common creed ; or that she is innocent , and not chargeable with schism , though she be not , yea abhors to be , so incorporated ; he would do much better to save his labour . no other answer can be pertinent : no excursions into invectives against any other church , or churches , will be at all to the purpose . except therefore the pretended answer be qualifyed as hath been said , he must give the present author leave to protest against it , as no answer at all ; notwithstanding which protestation the protestant may , and probably will , take leave to think and proclaim it unanswerable . now the rather to invite him to undertake such a just , though unusual , and hitherto unpractised a task , the author does here freely acknowledg , that was a principal end of his writing and publishing this discourse : for the truth is , the world has been too long , and too much , abused with impertinencies and malicious buffo●ries , to the perverting of souls , encrease of atheism , and shame of our nation . another considerable motive also of composing this short discourse , was a desire in the author to take occasion to deliver briefly the catholic church's doctrines , as they are in themselves , and freed from the curious fancies of school-men , and misprision of sectaries , to the glory of god , and the good of souls ✚ why are you a catholic ? a dialogue between a protestant and a catholic . §. 1. protestant . why are you a catholic ? catholic . because i am a christian , and by the rule of christian faith ( the apostles creed ) am obliged to believe the holy catholic church . prot. did not you believe that article before you was a catholic ? cath. i thought indeed at that time that i had believed it ; but i have found since that i only thought so . prot. it seems then , you do not think that i believe this article , as well as you . cath. i am sure that by vertue of this article you are not obliged to be a protestant . §. 2. prot. perhaps we do not agree in the sence of this article . cath. it may well be so : therefore for a tryal give me leave to propose a few questions to you . prot. ask what you please . cath. first then , when you say you believe the holy catholic church , do you not believe this church to be one body , as st. paul expresly teaches , saying , there is one body , one spirit , as there is one hope of our calling , one lord , one faith , one baptism , one god and father of all , &c. ephes. 4. 4. 5. 6. and as we profess in the following creeds of the church . prot. yes , i believe the true catholic church of christ to be one body . §. 3. and do you not further believe , that this church of christ shall continue one body till the end of the world ? prot. yes doubtless ; for otherwise the time might come , in which this article of our faith should be false : and also christ's promise [ that the gates of hell should never prevail against his church ] should fail . §. 4. cath. in professing such a belief of this article , do you not also intend thereby to acknowledg your self a member of this one catholic church ? prot. yes , without doubt . cath. you cannot surely think it a matter indifferent whether you be a member of this one church , or not ? prot. no , by no means : on the contrary i acknowledg , that whosoever is separated from this one church of christ , and dies in that separation , cannot be saved . §. 5. cath. thus far then we both agree . let us further , if you please , consider , what a church in general is , i mean a christian church ? prot. i conceive it to be a society of men and women publicly professing that religion which they believe to have been taught by christ. §. 6. cath. but every society thus professing , is it thereby the same church which we are taught to believe in the creed ? prot. it is at least a part of that church . cath. are then societies of heretics and schismatics part of that one church , since they also profess the religion which they believe to have been taught by christ ? prot. no : for they cut themselves off from this one church , either by inventing new and false doctrines , which renders them heretics , that is , chusers of a new faith : or by disobeying the lawful commands of this one church , which renders them schismatics , that is , rebels . §. 7. cath. can any society be called one body , or corporation , unless it be united by common received laws and governors ? prot. i now begin to perceive whither you would lead me , therefore i must advise well lest i engage my self too far by an hasty answer to this question . cath. sir it is not victory , but truth we now regard . therefore speak not of being engaged , but freely recal any answer you have , or shall give , if you find cause . and as for the present question , consider well what that is which makes a society , as a kingdom , a province , an army , a city , a corporation to become one body . is it not an obligation imposed on those who live respectively in any of these , to be subject to the peculiar government and laws there established ? this appears plainly , in that wheresoever any one obstinately refuses such submission , he is esteemed and treated as a rebel , a fugitive , an outlawed person , and utterly deprived of all priviledges and emoluments belonging to the said body . prot. this cannot be denyed . cath. apply this then to god's church . st. paul says expresly , it is one body : your creed obliges you to call it one : the scripture compares it to a city at unity in it self : and to a well ordered army with banners , under which all soldiers are reduced in their ranks , expecting the generals command , signifyed by subordinate officers . such a society is gods church : it is the kingdom of christ , which if once divided cannot stand . but by his promise it ( and no other kingdom besides it ) shall stand for ever ; and therefore it shall never be divided , but all its members shall continue in their order . now what makes such order ; but obedience to government and laws ? can you imagine any other , excluding this ? prot. i must confess , i cannot , for it is plain , that where every one will be a law to himself , there can be no order nor unity , nothing but confusion and endless divisions . cath. hence it follows then , that the church must necessarily consist of teachers and disciples , of governors and subjects . prot. that is granted . cath. and consequently , that it is a visible society . prot. true : for otherwise none will be able to know whom , or what , to obey : no society can be invisible to the members of it : and it is not a society , if the governors or teachers in it be invisible , and the laws unknown . §. 8. cath. by whom have these teachers and governors been appointed in the church ? prot. st. paul informs us , epes . 4. 11. 12. 13. saying , christ gave some apostles , and some prophets , and some evangelists , and some pastors and teachers , for the perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministery , for the edifying of the body of christ : till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledg of the son of god unto a perfect man , &c. so also we read in the epistle to the hebrews , no man taketh this honour to himself , but he that is called of god , as was aaron . heb. 5. 4. §. 9. cath. this being so , are not they who are disciples in gods church , obliged in conscience to believe their teachers , and subjects to obey their governors ? prot. yes , without doubt : but yet with this condition , that these teachers teach truth , and these governors command lawful things . cath. but is every subject to be a iudg whether the doctrine taught him be true , and the thing commanded lawful ? prot. the scripture is to be judg between them . cath. indeed that which you say would be to some purpose , if the scripture could speak and answer the readers questions and doubts , as we two can do to one another . but the scripture being only a writing , and by consequence incapable of interpreting its own meaning whensoever any doubt of its true sence arises , if it may be permitted to every christian to judg of his teachers doctrines by examining them by scripture , the church may as well be without teachers . §. 10. prot. i know no remedy : for since it is evident to us , that there is on earth no visible infallible guide and interpreter of scripture , we cannot rely upon any man , or any society of men , so as to remain secure that they will not mislead us , either out of ignorance or secular interests . therefore we must leave to all christians a judgment of diseretion , to discern by the light of gods word , whether their teachers guide them in the way of truth , or not . every one must take the best course he can , not to fall into any dangerous error . and since eternity depends upon it , it is not likely that men will wilfully misinterpret scripture , to their own destruction ; especially in points fundamental , which are so clearly set down in scripture , that no sober enquirer can be mistaken in them . cath. well , sir , i have at present done asking questions , and now ( better enabled by what you have said ) will endeavor to give you a fuller answer to the question you proposed in the begining , viz. why are you a catholick ? §. 11. first then , sir , i am a catholick because i believe that christ the author and finisher of our faith is infinitely both good , wise and omnipotent . his goodness inclined him to come down into this world to save mankind , by establishing a church upon earth , which should remain till the end of the world , and in which the way to heaven should be so taught , as not only the wise and learned , but the poor , simple and ignorant also should by faith and obedience be made partakers of eternal happiness . now his goodness having designed this ; his wisdom enabled him to appoint ways and means proper to effect that his blessed design ; and omnipotence , to make those means successful . § 12. the general efficacious means to accomplish this , are first , the revealing his whole will to his church ; which we acknowledg to be sufficiently done in holy scripture , as to all points absolutely necessary to salvation , though in all those points not so clearly to every one , that without a teacher their sense may not be mistaken : neither doth scripture make an express discernment of what points are necessary . and secondly , the assisting of this his church with fidelity and a constant performance of her duty in declaring all necessary divine truth manifested to her , to her subjects ; with a command , that all christians should obey and submit to what she shall teach or enjoyn them . god having thus revealed his whole will to his one catholic church , it necessarily and evidently follows . 1. that ignorance , or error , in any points of christian doctrine necessary to salvation , is damnable . 2. that a seperation from this one church is damnable also , upon what pretence soever the separation be made . §. 13. now to avoid eternal misery thus threatned by error or schism , only one of these two ways is possible . 1. by ones own light to penetrate into all mysteries , so as to be most firmly assured of a right understanding of all necessary verities revealed by god in holy scriptures . 2. or out of a distrust of our own abilities to submit our reason and internal assent to authority . the former of these ways , all sects divided from the roman church , and among themselves , do uniformly take , being forced hereto by denying any visible society of men to have any authority obliging the consciences of their subjects : and by conseqence they have all , if any , an equal title ( that is indeed equally none at all ) to challenge belief , one as well as another : neither can they rationally , without deserting their common ground , condemn , or excommunicate one another . the latter way we catholics only take , and , as we think , prudently and surely . §. 14. for sir , i beseech you to consider what a busy , laborious task you have undertaken by being a protestant , of what sect among them soever you are . before you can promise to your self any rest of mind in the peculiar fundamental doctrines of your sect , your conscience must satisfy you that you have not embraced a religion by hazard , but after a diligent , sincere and effectual examination of all the reasons and arguments , not only of catholicks submitting to authority , but also of other sectaries , who proceeding your way of interpreting scripture by a private light , do condemn your doctrines ; or whose doctrines you condemn . to be able to do all this , how many volums of controversy are you obliged to read and examine ? besides this , it will be absolutely necessary that you be perfectly studyed in all the books of scripture , with the best commentaries on them , both ancient and modern since you ground your religion upon a sense of scripture , which perhaps not any of them will allow , and then in equity you are to examine their reasons for it . now what one mans age will suffice for all this business , though but in one or two points controverted , and though the party were learned , and had never so much leasure ? what then shall ignorant persons do , who yet make up the greatest number of christians ? what shall trades-men and day-labourers do ? who can scarce allow from their necessary vocations any time at all dayly , even to say their prayers ? yet it concerns all these , upon the venture of eternal happiness or misery , not to forsake or embrace a religion without a sufficient examination made by themselves of the grounds of it , since they are told , and believe it , that they must trust to themselves only because no external authority upon earth can require from them a submission of their judgment , inasmuch , as according to their general fundamental positions , no authority is infallible . §. 15. now whereas you said , that all fundamental doctrines of christianity are so clearly set down in scripture , that no sober enquirer can be mistaken in them : if this were true , yet since neither the scripture , nor you your selves , do clearly express which and how many doctrines are fundamental , every tittle of scriptures must be read and examined by every one of you , for fear a necessary doctrine should chance to escape you . but to demonstrate the groundlesness of that your assertion , i desire you to reflect on the prodigious multiplicity of sects swarming in this age , all which ground their belief upon pretended clear texts of scripture alone : you will then scarce find one article of christian faith exempted from their disputes . there are not wanting who deny the mistery of the holy trinity , the divinity and incarnation of our lord , the divine personality of the holy ghost . some absolutely deny freewill , whilst others exalt the power of it so high , as to affirm divine grace unnecessary to its best operations . some affirm our nature to be so incurably polluted by original sin as that all the best actions of the regenerate are mortal sins ; others will acknowledge no original sin at all . some affirm baptism necessary to salvation , even of infants : others reject infant-baptism : and calvinists assert , that infants without baptism are sanctified by their parents faith : and that some infants dying , though baptized may be damned . some believe mans soul to be mortal , and that it perisheth with the body , not having any knowledg or sentiment after death : some confine god to a determinate place in heaven , and also deny his prescience of future contingents . lastly some deny an eternity of torments in hell. surely you will not deny most of these to be contrary to fundamental doctrines of our faith : yet all who maintain these tenets , and all sectaries who contradict them , do ground themselves upon express scripture , which to you seems so clear . you cannot be more confident that you have light on the true sence of scripture , than they of a contrary sense , and only self-love and selfe-esteem determine both the one and the other . can it then be prudence in any man to hazard eternity upon his own sence of scripture , the half of which perhaps he never read ? commonly a text or two concludes every point controverted , when perhaps there are twenty texts , unconsidered by the person , which would rectify the sence he gave to the former ? is that guide to be trusted , which has seduced such infinite multitudes , opposing , calumniating , and hating one another ? all mankind may be witness that this private light hath hitherto never been able to confute or undecieve one sect. in a word , is it not in effect an injurious blaspheming of the goodness , wisdom and omnipotence of god to affirm that he has obliged under penalty of damnation all christians to unity of faith in all necessary doctrines ; and also that he hath promised to conserve his church in this unity to the end of the world : and on the other side to affirm withal , that the only means appointed by him to produce this unity should be a certain means of destroying unity , and which , if made use of by all christians , the gates of hell would be too strong for him , so that there would scarce be left a church upon earth . §. 16. truly , sir , i do not know through what spectacles you look upon this principle of protestancy , which hath been indeed the constant principle of all ancient-herities . but to me it appears most horribly gastly , and only fit to be acknowledged the invention of lucifer , the foul spirit of pride and contention , who presents to unwary christians once more this fruit of the tree of the knowledg of good and evil , to be aspired to by our own endeavors , and contrary to gods appointment . since therefore ( as hath been said ) there are but those two ways to arrive at the knowleg of divine mysteries contained in scripture ( yet so contained as that the texts in which they are contained are subject to be miss-understood ) viz. first , a man 's own private reason : and secondly , authority of superiors by gods appointment placed in his church : all the reason ▪ i have enforces me to chuse this latter way , because thereby i shall avoid inconstancy , otherwise unavoidable : as i am taught by st. paul , who sayes , eph. 4. 11 , 12 , &c. that therefore god placed in his church apostles , prophets , evangelists , pastors and teachers for the edification of the body of christ : a succession of which is to last till we all meet in the unity of faith , &c. this almighty god did , says he , to the end we should not be like children , wavering , and carried about with every wind of doctrine , through the wickedness of men , and cunning of such as would circumvent us with errour : the only remedy whereof , in the apostles judgment , is , submission to authority . to which submission also i am obliged by an express command of god [ obedite praepositis vestris , &c. ] heb. 13. 17. obey them that are set over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , as they that must give account — and reason thus divinely enlightned , obliging me to submit to authority , i should renounce the same reason utterly , if i should not prefer that society which ( by an evident succession from the foresaid apostles and pastors ) makes the best claim thereto ; yea , which alone claims an authority obliging the conscience , and that is the catholics church ; the authority whereof is evidently the greatest in the world . for though all divided sects preume to contend with her for truth of doctrines , challenging that to themselves ; yet there is not any one of them which dares assume to themselves that eminence of authority which manifestly appears in her . and you may know this catholio church from others , because it only challengeth an universal and absolute , not conditional obedience ; and you may know the sons of it by their professing to give to the churches authority such obedience . §. 17. now , sir , consider how agreeable to gods goodness and wisdom , how suitable to humane capacities , how helpful to mens necessities is this way of grounding our faith on gods word as interpreted by the catholic church . the far greatest part of christians are too weak to maintain disputes : yet god loves the poor and ignorant , at least , as well as he does the rich and learned ; and takes care to bring them to happiness without learning , sharpness of wit , curiosity , and study of knowledg . consequently he has chalked out a way to heaven , in which the ignorant and simple may walk securely : and in what other way can these walk , but in that of obedience to authority ? this doubtless is that way foretold by the prophet , isa. 35. 8. saying in christs kingdom , there shall be a high way — and it shall be called a holy way . no polluted person shall pass through it . this shall be [ to christians ] a streight way , so that fools shall not err in it . now have sectaries found out this streight way in which fools cannot err ? sectaries , i say , who have framed a confused labyrinth , in which there are a thousand cross paths and windings , where every one wanders , as it were , with a dark lanthorn in his hand , and either stumbles into , or phantastically chuses such a path as at the present pleases him best , and leaves it also when he thinks good , not taking direction from any other , or not much caring for such directions . by this means we see how that not only fools and ignorant , but even the most judicious amongst sectaries , following their own light , do walk all their lives , in quite contrary ways , yet all believing that god by the scripture directs them . §. 18. manifest therefore it is , that gods way being only one holy , streight high-way , not any sectaries , but all and only catholics have been by almighty god brought into it : in as much as they , distrusting the dim light of their own reason for discerning the verities of faith contested , borrow the churches light : thus exercising christian humility , in not presuming upon their own abilities ; and christian obedience , in submitting to the guidance of those teachers and governors whom god hath placed over them , and who are to give an account of their souls , these heavenly virtues are , and have always been equally practised by both ignorant catholics out of necessity , and by the most learned out of duty : yea , those glorious lights of gods church , the holy fathers and ancient doctors , though they were fathers and doctors to others , yet to the church herself they were humble children and disciples , learning only from her , and teaching others only what they had learnt from her . this surely is a streight high-way , and a holy way too : and whil'st the most simple among catholicks walk in this way , they have an incomparable advantage in light above the most learned of those which trust to their private light . for they are guided by all the lights ; that is , by the whole body of those which god hath constituted teachers in his church in all ages ; and by consequence they are exempted from an obligation of examining particular controversies , which their teachers duty is to examine for them . §. 19. neither is it natural reason alone which directs us to perfer so eminent authority before our own simple judgments , but ( as hath been said ) a divine light also appearing in scripture , and in constant ecclesiastical tradition , the best and safest interpreter of scripture . there we find the church called , the pillar and ground of truth ; a city at one in it self , and set upon a hill which cannot be hid . there we read , that every tongue which shall rise against her in iudgment , she shall condemn : that gentiles shall come to her light , and kings to the brightness of her rising : and that the nation and kingdom which will not serve her , shall perish . there we shall find , that the least supream tribunal on earth to determine controversies amongst christians is the church , whom whosoever will not hear , is to be esteemed as a heathen and a publican ; such an unappealeable authority has god established in this church . and by vertue of this authority , general councils representing the whole body of church governors ; challenge from all christians a submission , not only of non-contradiction , but also of internal assent , under penalty of anathema ; which assent we willingly and joyfully yield by vertue of christs promises , that he will lead his church into all truth , jo. 16. 13. and so preserve her in an uniform profession of truth , that the gates of hell shall never be able to prevail against her ; mat. 16. 18. which gates of hell are by the interpretations of the fathers , heresies . §. 20. these irrefragable grounds from prudence and scripture have we catholics for directing our faith : on the other side , not one single text of scripture , nay moreover , not one quotation can be produced out of any one of the holy fathers , which may rationally incourage a christian to prefer his own sence of scripture before that of the church ; whereas whole books have been written by them of the churches unity , authority , indefectibility and universality . now sir , who can resist , who can hold out against such a battery ? prot. well sir , how prevalent soever this discourse may seem to you to be against us , whom you style schismatics , it will prove of little advantage to you roman catholics ; for although we grant , that there is but one catholic church , out of which there is no salvation , yet this does not prove the roman to be this church : the roman , i say , which is but a particular church , and she being ( as we are perswaded ) guilty of teaching and practising many false doctrines , and manifold superstitions and idolatry , we cannot with a safe conscience have any communion with her . §. 21. cath. sir , this is the ordinary artifice of your protestant writers , when they are pressed with the guilt of those unpardonable crimes of ( heresie and ) schism , to impute to the church many errors and sinful practices , in which , foresooth , their tender consciences dare not joyn . this they do , to the end they may be dispenced withal from clearing themselves from schism , till after a full discussion of all other controversies touching differences about any particular errors supposed to be in the church ; which discussion cannot be undertaken by one in a thousand , considering mens general incapacity ; and if undertaken by the learned , would scarce ever have an end . but this is most unreasonable , because though it were true , that the church from which they separated were indeed guilty of teaching errors , yet are protestants justly and unanswerably charged with schism in a high degree , in as much as they remain divided , not from the roman only , but all patriarchal and all other churches existent before their separation : so that if there be such a crime as schism , they are manifestly guilty of it : and by consequence it would be damnable in any one to joyn in their communion . to make this charge good against them , it will be fully sufficient to alledg the confession of all christians , ( and of themselves ( also viz. that there always has been , is , and shall ever remain a holy catholic church of christ on earth , from which separation , upon any pretence whatsoever , is damnable . this church therefore ( wheresoever it is ) was in being when they divided from the roman ; and can they pretend that they are members of this church ? there is not a society in the world older than theirs , or other than the roman church , with which they entertain any communion at all , to whose consession of faith they will subscribe , and to whose laws and government they will submit , but on the contrary condemn its doctrines , laws and government . the consciousness of this , forced the principal patriarch of schism , calvin , to profess that himself and his followers separated from the whole world . now it being impossible for protestants to excuse , much less to justifie their manifest schism , to what purpose is it to enter into debate with them about particular points of doctrine ? as long as the charge of schisin subsists , uncleared by them , and this schism grounded on pretended dangerous errors in the catholic church , being schismatics they are heretics too , and so condemned by themselves and consequently not to be hearkned to , when they would raise particular controversies , since this one general controversie determines against them all particular debates . §. 22. schism therefore , in its lowest qualification , considered only as disobedience to lawful ecclesiastical authority , being , even in the judgment of learned protestants , a most horrible sin , a tearing in pieces the mystical body of christ : there are one or two special aggravations which extreamly heighten the heinousness of it in protestants , ( i mean those reformers abroad , and antiently in scotland , calvinists , presbyterians , lutherans , anabaptists , &c. ) they were once members of the roman-catholic-church , which they then esteemed to be that church , which they believed in the creed . it hapned that their prime patriarchs , luther , calvin , zwinglius , &c. having conceived some discontent either against the governors , or some prevailing party in that church which obstructed their profits , or against the laws of it , which restrained their lusts after women , grew angry , and began to quarrel with the church her self , and to study to disgrace her , for which purpose the readiest way was to find fault with her doctrines : then pride and revenge inspiring them , against these they made objections , yet not so oft against the churche's own doctrines as the tenents of particular catholick writers , and most oft they directed their most bitter invectives against personal miscarriages , for all which the church must be answerable : and after all this publishing liberty from laws which restrained concupiscence , they quickly found favorites and followers : thus sects were first composed . but if there had been in any of them either humility or love of peace , in case they had been perswaded there had been errors in the church her self , to which they could not subscribe , they would not thereupon separate themselves from her , but submit patiently to her censures , which she should lay upon them . if her censures were just , they would have no reason to complain ; if unjust , god would reward them for their patience and love of peace . §. 23. they were no sooner separated , but they heaped on the church all the most despightful reproaches and calumnies they could invent , and to heighten their criminal schism to the uttermost , they formed new societies which they called churches , and therein established new pastors , and a new ecclesiastical ministry : ( the very sin for which god commanded the earth to swallow core , dathan and abiron . ) amongst the gifts which our lord when he led captivity captive , received from his father , and bestowed on his church , the principal gift mentioned by st. paul , was his constituting therein apostles , pastors , and teachers to continue to the end of the world by a legitimate succession . there is not the least intimation given in scripture or tradition , that this succession should ever be interrupted : yet as if it had quite ceased and been annulled , these reformers , without any warrant , usurp a power to take all authority out of the hands of those to whom our saviour had given it , and to bestow it according to their own pleasure , thus making a total reversement of the whole frame of gods church ( as far as lyes in their power ) through the whole world. if christ himself had thus , without testifying his authority by miracles , dealt with the iewish synagogue , he would not have expected belief , nor been able to answer that question proposed to him , by what authority dost thou these things , and who gave thee this authority ? luke . 20. 2. yet all this our late reformers have done without ever pretending to one miracle . into whatever place they come through the whole earth , they , as far as their secular power extends , degrade and chase away all bishops , priests and pastors , professing the catholic religion , they take authority to defame them as false pastors , and true wolves ; they denounce anathemas against them , they incite their subjects to rebel , defraud and persecute them , as if god had given his iron rod into the hands of these gladiators , and conferred on them the ends of the earth for their inheritance . no man takes his power of ecclesiastical jurisdiction but he that is called , as was aaron . heb. 5. 4. who called these men to the office of preaching and governing christians ? who invested them with such authority ? if we consult their own stories , we shall find the prime ministers in the principal cities of france , constituted and consecrated by hands of the basest sort of tradesmen . there have not been nor even now are wanting among them several sensual priests , ( once they had a bishop ) apostates from the catholic church , whom they might employ in the office of preaching and praying in their synagogues , and by that means make a shew , that some of their ministers were indeed clergymen , who had an ordinary vocation . but such hatred they bear to all ecclesiastical order , that even these shall not be admitted into the presbytery without renouncing their former ordinary vocation , and receiving their commission , by a new imposition of hands of lay-ministers . in a word , i should weary both you and my self , if i should enumerate all the enormities of your first reformation . if you have a mind , you may receive sufficient information in a late book written in french , the title whereof is ( in english ) legitimate prejudgments against calvinists ; in which the learned author demonstrates by several titles , as by what appeared exteriourly in the life of the first reformers by want of mission ; by the evidence of their being guilty of schism ; by their temerity most prodigious in their presumption to establish a new ecclesiastical ministry ; by the spirit of calumny and injustice which generally actuates them ; by their peculiar most monstrous doctrines taught by them ; by their ridiculously impossible way of instructing their disciples in christian verities , &c. by these marks i say he shews that they do not deserve to be admitted to an examination of their pretended reform'd religion , being manifestly prejudged and self condemned . §. 24. prot. but surely , sir , you will not apply this to the reformed church of england , and particularly that charge concerning the want of lawful pastors . we have been far from making a breach in the chain of succession , since if there be lawful pastors in the roman church , we have the like in the english , in as much as we received our ordinations from rome . cath. for as much as concerns your ordinations , i will not here enter into any dispute , neither indeed is it needful : but this i may confidently say , that since english protestants have ( especially of late , ) by many tokens shewed that they esteem calvinists , or presbyterian congregations to be true , though not so perfect , members of christs church , as themselves ; the english church , i may say justifies , but however , qualifies or excuses that horrible defect in them of want of ordinations and lawful mission , and thereby involves her self in their guilt . again though it were true , that the english clergy have received their ordinations from the roman catholic church , yet sure i am , that church never released them from their canonical subjection to their superiors , particularly to their patriarch and supream pastor of gods church : she never gave them power to change the order of administring sacraments ; to reverse ordinances of superior councils ; to expel catholic bishops from their sees , meerly because they were catholics ; in a word , she never gave them authority to alter , or rather destroy , the whole religion , in a manner , professed in england since they were first christians . if english bishops have received their character from rome , yet not iurisdiction ; or if that also , yet certain it is , that the same church which gave them iurisdiction , can also upon their demerits , and exercising it contrary to her intention , suspend the administration of it ; which suspension is no doubt implyed in her condemnation of all their innovations . to be brief , the english church challenging ordination by lawful succession , is thereby obliged to acknowledg the roman church , to be at least a true member of the catholic church , ( and consequently her self no such member ) unless the bishops here will confess themselves to be anti-catholic bishops , and yet most unreasonably pretend an union with the catholic church . §. 25. prot. she does in deed acknowledg the roman to be a member , but a corrupt member of the catholic church . cath. consider , sir , i pray you , that the rule of faith obligeth us to believe the church of god to be holy as well as catholic . now if the universal church be holy or uncorrupt , then is every member of it , as far as in its communion , holy and uncorrupt also . which holiness does not regard the persons , whether governors or subjects ; for in the first and best church of all , consisting of the apostles and disciples of our lord only , there was a iudas and a nicolas : a church is said to be holy , when it teaches truth and holiness : so is the universal church holy and so is every member , in its communion ; since that which makes it a member in its communion , is its agreement with the whole in doctrines taught by it , both regarding faith and manners . and from hence it follows , that to ascribe error and corruption to any church which is acknowledged a member of the catholic church , and for such pretended errors to break off communion with it , is to do the same to the universal church , and consequently to contradict an article of faith. now that this is the condition of the english-church , is manifest . for since all christians are under pain of damnation obliged to live in communion with the universal church , by being obedient to it's laws and governors ; as also to believe , that this universal church , is at this day extant , where can an english protestant hope to find this church , if not in the roman communion ? in the greek-church he will find the same doctrine , which in the roman he calls dangerous errours , as , ( besides the confession hereof by several protestant authors formerly ) hath been of late , beyond all gainsaying , evidenced by the indefatigable industry of monsieur arnaud in his two late replies to claude a calvinist minister , from the authentick testimonials and declarations both of several late synods , and of many ecclesiastical persons of eminency , both in the present greek and other eastern churches . and besides these he will find other doctrins which we all condemn as heresies . then for pretended corruptions in practice , the same practices which he stiles superstitious and idolatrous ( principally touching the blessed sacrament ) he will find in the greek church far more distastful to him . and as for other eastern sects , besides the same practises , he will find himself obliged , if in communion with any of them , to assent to ancient , universally condemned heresies , nestorianism , eutychianism , monothelitism , &c. §. 26. prot. but no doubt , god hath his elect servants among them all , who are truly orthodox , as we are : with whom we may be said to be united in spirit . cath. truly sir , this is a meer pittiful dream to talk of communion in spirit with hidden christians , to you invisible , as you are also to them . this renders all the discourses of the holy fathers touching the churches visibility and unity utterly impertinent . yea this evacuates the predictions of all gods ancient prophets , foretelling the extent , glory and victories of the kingdom of the messias : and it makes void the promises of our saviour touching his church . what meaning therefore can you frame to your self , when you say , you acknowledg a perpetually existent catholic church , and a necessity imposed on all christians to live in her communion ? §. 27. pr. we acknowledg our selves in communion with all christian societies , as far as they teach truth , and practise according to christs law. cath. so you may be said to communicate with iews , turks and insidels : for some truths are taught by all these , and some of their practises are lawful . but is this such a communion as the church catholic anciently , or as the first four general councils required ? it is manifest that at the time of your first separation there was not one society of christians in the world to whose profession of faith you would subscribe , in whose religious worship you would joyn , and by whose laws you would be governed : so that all christians then living and visible in the world , were to you as heathens and publicans ; and you the very same to them . were your first reformers in communion with them ? certainly you will not say , that the roman , grecian , and oriental churches , though they will not deny but you teach some truths and sometimes practise virtues , do live in your communion , that is , that persons mutually excommunicating one another , do at the same time live in one communion , or that pastors live in communion with those who renounce obedience to them , and abhorr the faith taught by them . §. 28. p. why , sir , would you have us allow such a way of communion , as you seem to understand , to societies which we firmly believe do teach damnable errours , and enjoyn idolatrous or superstitious practises ? cath. no sir , by no means . but since there is on earth a visibly holy catholic church , placed as a city upon a hill , with which you must , under pain of damnation , communicate in such a manner as christians did in the time of the first four general councils , i adjure you not to rest where you now are , in schism , from all visible churches preceding your separation , but to find her out ; and having found her out , to depose an overweening conceit of your own abilities to censure and condemn her doctrines , and with christian humility to submit your self entirely to her guidance , by which means you will be sure to find rest of mind . §. 29. prot. this seems to me a task too hard to be undertaken . cath. that which makes it seem so hard to you is , perhaps , a secret whisper of nature and self-love , telling you , that this may expose you to many worldly disadvantages : or if not this , a strong prejudice by education deeply imprinted in your mind against the roman church , the condemning and reviling of which is the subject of most books you read , and of most of the discourses and sermons you hear . i name the roman church , because i am perswaded , that if you should happen to entertain any doubts of the security of the grounds of protestant religion , it would not be the grecian , nor any of the other oriental churches , whose religion you would put in the scales against it , but only the roman , from whence you had your christianity , your church her subsistence , and within the limits and iurisdiction of whose patriarch you live . do i not judg aright ? prot. yes . §. 30. cath. then , sir , though at present you should have no doubts of any doctrines taught by your church , or rather in it ( for your self will not allow her the title of an authentic teacher , neither does she challenge it ) yet since you have voluntarily fixed your self in such a church , which , not pretending to an infallible direction from god , cannot with any shew of reason tell you , that you are bound in conscience to believe any one of her doctrines , nor that it is a sin for you to leave her communion , and to chuse that of any other society which you may like better , ( for then all christians should , as well as you , be obliged to joyn themselves to the english church only : ) endeavour , i beseech you , with a mind as disinteressed as may be , to hearken to what may be alledged for the right which the roman church has to challeng your obedience , so as that the refusal of such obedience would be an heinous sin. for this right indeed she challenges , and she alone : no other ancient church hath , and no par ticular sect doth , or can pretend to it . prot. i am content . §. 31. cath. first then consider , that the very challenging of such a right which belongs only to the truly catholic church , is a strong proof that she alone is that church which hath a right to challenge it , and would prove her self a false church if she did not challenge it . but because perhaps you cannot easily induce your mind to consider her otherwise than as a particular church , i confidently believe , that if the eastern church were united in one body with the western , you would not find any difficulty to think your self obliged to yield an entire obedience to so great an authority . prot. this i willingly acknowledg . §. 32. cath. be pleased then to reflect on some age , when these two great churches were united : for example , in the days of st. gregory the great . then there was a perfect agreement through the whole world , excepting only the societies of ancient heretics , acknowledged for such by protestants . then both doctrine and discipline was uniform every where . what st. gregory taught was accepted through the whole church : yea those parts of his writings which are most opposite to your doctrines ( as his dialogues &c. ) have presently after his time been translated into the greek tongue and with veneration received by that church : whence will follow , that what he hath taught us in his writings , touching points of religion , and which you most mislike , was then esteem'd true catholic doctrine . now what does st. gregory teach but the same which is now taught in the roman church ? in all controversies lately raised between catholics and protestants , he is constantly and directly against protestants . this is so manifest , that it is acknowledged by many learned protestants , who describing the particular points of religion professed by st. gregory ( and st. augustine the monk , sent by him to convert england ) name these , freewill , merit and iustification of works , pennance , satisfaction , purgatory , celibacy of priests , publick invocation of saints , and worshipping of them , veneration of images , exorcisms , pardons , vows , monachism , transubstantiation , prayer for the dead , oblation of christ's body and blood for the dead , the roman bishop's iurisdiction over all churches , celebration of mass , consecrations of churches , altars , chalices , corporals and fonts of baptism , veneration of relicks , sprinkling of holy-water , dedicating churches to the bones and ashes of saints , indulgencies to such as visit churches on certain days , pilgrimages , and in a word , the whole chaos of popish superstition , as they are pleased to stile it . so that mr. ascham affirms of our apostle st. augustine the disciple of st. gregory , that he was the overthrower of true religion , and the establisher of all popish doctrines ▪ and another saith of him , that he subjected england to the lust of antichrist , ( which antichrist you must take for granted , was st. gregory ) and therefore after his death , went undoubtedly to hell , there to receive his reward . thus evident convictions forced them to confess that all the doctrines of faith now taught , were then professed as catholic doctrines : but gall and malice against the church , suggested such foul , unseemly words to their pens . notwithstanding protestant writers , when , not being engaged in controversie , they have occasion to treat of st. gregory himself , they are not sparing in their elogies of him , such as these : he was a holy and a learned bishop . he was by name and indeed truly great , adorned with many and great endowments of divine grace , and ( as he is often styled ) the mouth and shining light of our lord. he was truly a pious man , and for his christian humility yet more to be praised . from his infancy being addicted to the studies of piety , he retired into a monastery , where shewing a particular sanctity of life , and being wholly intent upon prayer , he drew the eyes of all men upon him — he did so discharge the pontifical office , that following ages never had his equal much less any one excelling him . he was exceedingly renowned for miracles , &c. now me thinks , sir , the consent of the eastern and western churches , under the government of such a prelate , so versed as he was in holy scripture ( witness his sermons and commentaries ) should be so prevalent with you , as to make you suspect your own reason , if it suggests to you that the religion , professed in his days was superstitions and idolatrous . § , 33. prot. but why do you say , that the universal church in the east and west was governd by saint gregory , when he himself sharply condemned the patriarch of constantinople for assuming such a title as universal bishop , which he calls an antichristian title . cath. it was indeed a title full of arrogance , and therefore justly condemned by st. gregory in the notion , in which he conceived it might be understood , as if the patriarch pretended thereby to be esteemed the only legitimate bishop in the [ eastern ] church . for thence it would follow , that all other bishops were only his substitutes , acting by his commission , and removeable by him at pleasure : whereas they claim a reception of their order and character , immediately from christ alone . such a new title therefore it was that st. gregory condemned in that patriarch , and abhorred to accept himself , as plainly appears by his epistles . but yet that he had a superintendence over the whole church as supreme pastor thereof , to receive and judge appeals of bishops from all parts in causis majoribus ; to oblige all prelates , even patriarchs , to the profession of the faith established in councils , and the observance of the churches laws , and to impose ecclesiastical censures on all transgressors of them , this st. gregory challenged , and to this the prelates both of the western , and eastern churches also submitted , as appears by many epistles sent by him , and answers received from several patriarchs , and other prelates in the east . §. 34. since therefore it is confessedly certain , that the present roman church professes the same religion which saint gregory taught and planted in england , which the eastern church in those times approved without any contradiction , and which is now condemned by protestants ; it will evidently follow , that in those few points in which the present eastern churches quarrel with the roman , the said eastern churches only have been innovators ; and consequently that the roman church ( that is , all churches united in subordination to the prime patriarch and pastor ) still remains the catholic church , and enjoys the same authority which the universal church in , and before , st. gregories days enjoyed : so that all christians who break from her communion , do thereby shew themselves schismaticks , and self-condemned . §. 35. i have purposely made choice to instance in the time of st. gregory the great , because on the one side several protestants impute the beginning of the churches depravation principally to that age ; and on the other side almighty god , as if he had a design to confute and silence their accusations chose that age , especially in which to accomplish that most illustrious of all prophesies , foreshewing the glory of the catholic church , which is the conversion of nations from heathenish idolatry . the prophesies themselves are thus expresly set down in the old testament , and acknowledged by protestants to regard the christian church , the prophet isai writes thus : isa. 60. 2 , 3. the lord shall rise upon thee , and his glory shall be seen upon thee . ver . 5. and the gentiles shall come to thy light , and kings to the brightness of thy rising — ver . 10. the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee : the forces of the gentiles , shall come unto thee — ver . 11. the sons of strangers shall build thy walls , and their kings shall minister unto thee . ver . 14. thy gates shall be open continually , that men may bring unto thee the forces of the gentiles , and their kings may be brought — all they that despise thee , shall bow themselves at the soles of thy feet , and they shall call thee , the city of the lord — ver . 22. a little one shall become a thousand , and a small one a strong nation . again , isai. 49. 23. kings shall be thy nursing fathers , and queens thy nursing mothers . and again isai. 39. 21. this is my covenant with them , saith the lord , my spirit which is upon thee , and my words which i have put in thy mouth , shall not depart out of thy mouth , nor out of the mouth of thy seed , nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed , saith the lord , from henceforth and for ever . also the kingly prophet , psal. 11. 8. i will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance , and the ends of the earth for thy possession . this kingdom , ( saith the prophet daniel ) shall not be given over to another people , but shall stand for ever , dan. 11. 44. these are gods promises to his church , so acknowledged by protestants . now it is manifest out of ecclesiastical history , that these prophecies began not , in a signal manner , to be accomplished , till the days of saint gregory . for during the first three hundred years , the church was wholly under persecution , and was encreased chiefly by sufferings . in the next three hundred years , the emperour constantine being converted to christianity , there were but few other kings foster-fathers of the church ; and besides this , several of the emperours , and some kings during that space , turned arians and apostates from the catholic faith. but from saint gregories time till luther , it is incredible almost what we read of the conversion of nations and kingdoms , and of the wonderful piety and zeal of ( once barbarous ) kings and queens , assoon as they had embraced the catholic faith. which conversions were generally made by the fervor , care , and authority first of st. gregory himself ; as england can , but most ungratefully will not , as becomes her , witness ; and next of st. gregories successors , bishops of rome . §. 36. now , sir , consider the force of illgrounded prejudices . several protestants , though they saw all the formentioned prophesies perfectly fulfilled by catholic missioners , yet out of the pre-assumed hatred to catholic religion , they will not acknowledg the forsaking idols and worship of devils , and the embracing of the catholic faith to be a conversion , but rather a perversion , and therefore wonder that they do not to this day see those prophecies accomplished , which were made above two thousands years since , in so much as castalio professes , the more i do peruse the scriptures , the less do i find these promises performed , howsoever they are to be understood . david george , a protestant living at basil , upon the same grounds became a blasphemer of christ , whom he called a seducer . bernardin ochin turned an apostate , denying they divinity of christ. adam neuserus , a calvinist professor at heydelberg , turned turk , and was circumcised at constantinople . alemannus likewise renouncing christianity became a blasphemous iew. and the principal motive of all these horrible changes , was an opinion that these prophecies were false dreams , or impudent inventions of sectaries , and never fulfilled , because forsooth not fulfilled in a church of their reformed religion , which reform'd religion never banished pagan idolatry out of one village . some conversions indeed of their own particular mode they have made , for by seditions they have banished catholic religion out of several places . and particularly the hollanders may brag , that they have converted the great empire of iapan from the catholic faith to its pristine most execrable idolatries ; to effect which , they have procured the most cruel murder of near four hundred thousand catholic martyrs , themselves in the mean time renouncing the open profession of christianity . §. 37. notwithstanding the truth is , the wonderful conversions of nations in former and later times also , by catholick missioners , have been so illustrious , that very many of the soberer protestant writers have highly exalted their zeal and unwearied deligence in their apostolical functions , and glorified god for it : being forced hereto by the many undeniable miracles wrought by them . yet the pleasant cunning of one luther an writer is very remarkable : his name is dr. philip nicolai , who having written a book on this very argument , to wit , the fulfilling of the fore-cited prophesies , touching the conversion of nations , is forced to alledg the examples not only ancient , as of the saxons , frisons , danes , germans , &c. converted by catholic bishops and priests ; but later also , as of innumerable people in the east and west-indies , reduced from idols to christianity by iesuits and other religious missioners ; and to acknowledge likewise that god testified the doctrine preached to them , by stupendious miracles . all this , this lutheran confesses ; but then with a turn , he deprives catholics of the glory and merit of all their labours , and applies it to his own sect : for he tells his readers , that all these apostolical preachers , in converting nations , did luther anizare ; and that the iesuits in their first converting the oriental indians , did shew themselves [ not roman catholics , but ] lutherans and evangelicks might he not have said as well , that christ's apostles converted nations , not as such , but as lutherans ? §. 38. now if these prophesies be divine , and have indeed been fulfilled , they have been fulfilled by catholics only , and consequently catholic religion constitutes that church of christ to which such glorious predictions were made . i will therefore here adjoyn the words of st. augustine , who having alledged out of the scripture many such prophesies ; concludes thus : whilst thou holdest thy self fast to these prophesies , if an angel from heaven should say to thee , leave the christianity of the whole earth and chuse the part of the [ shismatic ] donatus , luther , calvin , tindal , &c. ] he ought to be to thee anathema ; because he would endeavour to cut thee off from the whole , and thrust thee up into one part , so alienating thee from the promises of god. §. 39. these , sir , among many other , are grounds surely sufficient to justifie the right which the roman church has to merit your obedience : i beseech you think seriously on them . for mine own part , i do sincerely protest to you , that unless i would renounce all other guides to eternal happiness , but an over-weaning fancie of mine own abilities , or blind passion against all guides establish'd in gods church : if divine revelation , consent of antiquity , manifest reason , and even experience by outward sensation may be fit to guide me , i must not be a protestant , i must of necessity be a roman catholic . for divine revelation ( interpreted also by consent of fathers and councils ) informs me , that christ hath established on earth a visible church , which is , one holy and catholic , the common mother and only authentick teacher of all christians ; that this church shall remain such to the end of the world : and that whosoever is not a true faithful member of this church , is thereby cut off from the mystical body of christ , and shall be eternally separated from him. again , evident reason shews , that no person , or society , can be esteemed a member of any church any other way , than by believing its doctrines , and being subject to its laws and government . in the third place , the testimony of our senses assures us , that not any of our modern sects do assent to the doctrines , or are governed by the laws of any church at all ( and consequently not of the catholic church , ) which had a being at their first ( pretended ) reformation : therefore upon these grounds it evidently follows , that all the said sects are manifestly guilty of schism . moreover , since the roman is that church of which the first reformers , once were members , and by reforming made a separation from it , and since the same church does constantly profess the same doctrines which were once held by the universal body of orthodox christians ; and again , since there is not any visible church upon earth to which all marks of the true church assigned in scripture , and by the holy fathers , can be so applied , and whereto the antient prophecies and the promises of christ have been so perfectly accomplished , as the roman ; it will evidently follow , that the present roman catholic church ought to be acknowledged that one holy catholic church , which we confess in the apostles creed and by consequence whatsoever doctrines , in opposition to the faith professed in this church , are taught by protestants , they are thereby , without any particular discussion , legitimately prejudged to be formal heresies . now heresie and schism being by all ( even by hereticks and schismaticks themselves ) acknowledged most dreadfully wasting crimes , of which i cannot possibly be guilty whilst i adhere to the roman catholic church , nor avoid the guilt of them by forsaking its communion ; i conceive i have , without any necessity of engaging in particular disputes , given you rational grounds enabling me to afford a sufficient answer to the question first proposed by you , viz. why are you a catholic ? §. 40. and for a conclusion , sir , give me leave to tell you , that it will be utterly in vain for you to atempt the avoiding of the [ stigmata ] brands of heresie and schism , by entring into an endless dispute about particular controversies , to be stated out of books : for , till you be able to shew a present visible , orthodox church , the governors and teachers whereof are derived by a continual succession from the apostles , which church in all those points for which you have separated from the roman , teaches as you do , and either governs you , or is governed by you ; till this , i say be done , your busying your self about particular disputes will never produce to you peace of mind , but rather encrease in you pride and malice against others . your first most necessary care therefore must be to establish your self in such a church as can oblige you to believe her : for by no other way can you ( nor your teachers ) avoid self-condemnation , as manifest innovators . there are certain illustrious marks assigned by the holy scriptures and fathers , to distinguish the true catholic church from congregations of hereticks and schismaticks , such are unity ; succession , universality , converting of nations , miracles , &c. and these are such marks as are perceptible by the meanest capacities , to the end that none should be excused if they mistake the church . now not one of these so visible marks belongs to you ; and not one but belongs to the roman catholic church . §. 41. when you are urged to shew some signs or marks which might invite any to joyn with you , all you can say is , that you teach truth , and that you duly administer the sacraments ; that is , you would prove your selves to be a true church , because you say you are a true church ; for ( not the marks , but ) the essence of a church consists in teaching truth , &c. but marks of his church , easily observable by all men , were appointed by god to lead the simple as well as the learned , to discover that church which only teacheth truth , and duly administers his sacraments . not any such marks do you pretend to shew , and as for this your miscalled , single mark , the unlearned cannot possibly judg , whether you do indeed teach truth , &c. and the learned must have spent their whole lives before they can be in a capacity to judg . and though they should be so unhappy as to suffer themselves to be convinced that you do teach truth , &c. yet till you can further demonstrate that you are not guilty of schism , but that you communicate with that one holy catholic church , which you believe in the creed , it would ( notwithstanding all the truth pretended to be taught by you ) be a damnable sin in them to communicate with you . these things considered , since i am confident it is impossible for you to clear this point , i believe you will find an insuperable difficulty to prepare , according to the method observed here , a tolerable general answer , sufficient to vindicate your church ; in case i should by way of exchange , propose to you this question . why are you a protestant ? prot. judg not , sir , too hastily . perhaps at our next meeting you will hear more than you now expect . in the mean time i thank you for your charity : and , god willing , i will seriously reflect on what hath been said . cath. farewel , sir , and , if you think good , cast your eyes upon this little bundel of citations out of several ancient holy fathers of the church , who will tell you , that upon the very same grounds , which have been here discoursed on , they were good christians and catholics . prot. if they tell me so , i shall not easily contemn what they tell me . farewel . ✚ ¶ testimonies of holy fathers regarding the substance of the foregoing discourse . §. 1. of the churches prepetual existence . visibility , &c. obscurius dixerunt prophetae●de christo , quam de ecclesia , puto propterea ] the prophets have spoken more obscurely concerning christ , than concerning the church . the reason hereof i conceive to be , because they foresaw in spirit , that men would make divisions and parties , and that they would not much dispute about christ himself , but that they would raise great contentions about the church . therefore that was more plainly foretold , and more openly prophecyed concerning which , greater contentions would in succeeding times be raised to the end a heavier judgment should befall those who saw [ the church ] and yet fled out of it . quis numeret testimonia de ecclesia toto orbe terrarum diffusa ? quis who can number the testimonies given [ in scripture ] touching the church spread over the whole earth ? who can number them ? there are not in the whole world so many heresies against the church as there are testimonies in the [ old ] law for the church . what page there does not proclaim this ? what verse does not mention it ? all passages there cry out aloud for the unity of our lords body ; for he has placed peace through the borders of hierusalem : now thou , o heretick , barkest against all these testimonies : and therefore that whch is written in the apocalypse is justly verified in that city , without are dogs . thou barkest against these [ testimonies ] from what tribunal dost thou judg ? thy tribunal is the presumption of thine own heart . it is a lofty , but a ruinous tribunal . exaltare super coelos , deus , & super omnem terram gloria tua — ] be thou exalted , o god , above the heavens , and thy glory over all the earth , my bretheren , we have not seen god exalted above the heavens ; yet we believe it . but we not only believe , but we see his glory exalted over all the earth [ in his church . ] now i beseech you observe what a madness it is which possesses heretics . they being cut off from the compacted body of the church of christ , and by holding a part being deprived of the whole , will not communicate with the whole earth , over which the glory of christ , is spread . o heretical madness ! thou believest with me that which thou doest not see : and thou deniest that which both thou and i do see . thou believest with me that christ is exalted above the heavens , which neither of us hath seen : and thou deniest his glory over all the earth , which we both see . in sole posuit tabernaculum suum — ] he has placed his tabernacle in the sun , that is , in a place manifest ( to all ) his tabernacle is his flesh : his tabernacle is his church which is placed in the sun : not in the night but in the day . tanquam ille , quem catechizamus , quaereret & diceret , quo ergo signo — ] if a catechumen should be inquisitive , and say , but by what sign shall i , being as yet a little one and unable clearly to discern the truth from so many errours , by what mark , i say , shall i find the church of christ , to believe which , i am obliged by so many manifest predictions ? hereto the prophet , as if he had a perfect knowledge of the catechumens scruples , answers , teaching him , that this is foretold to be the church of christ , which is raised on high and apparent to all ; for she is the seat of his glory . for in regard of such doubts as may befal the simpler sort of christians , who may be seduced by ( crafty ) men from the church so gloriously manifest , our lord providing a remedy , saith , a city which is set upon a mountain cannot be hid . christo tales maledicunt , qui — ] those do blaspheme christ , who affirm that the church hath perished from off the whole earth , and remained only on [ africa , geneva , england holland , &c. §. 2. of the catholic churches unity : and of schism . §. 43. una est ecclesia quaecunque illa sit — ) there is one only church , whichsoever that is , of which it is written , my dove ( my undesiled ) is but one , she is the only one of her mother ; neither can there be so many churches as there are shisms , [ o this position both the schismatics , donatists and st. augustin were agreed . perirem si essem departe pauli — ) i should perish ( eternally ) if i were of a party of which st. paul was the leader : how then shall i avoid perdition if i be of the party of donatus ( of luther , calvin , tindall , & c ? ) quamvis novatianus — ) though ( the schismatic ) novatian hath been put to death [ for the faith , ] yet he hath not been crowned . why not crowned ? because he died out of the peace , concord and communion of the church , separated from that common mother , of whom whosoever will be a martyr , must be a member . we ought rather to endure any torments , than consent to the dividing of gods church : since the martyrdom , to which we expose our selves by hindring a division of the church , is no less glorious , then that which is suffered for refusing to sacrifice to idols . si in navi pericula sunt — ] if there be dangers to those who are ein the ship , there is certain drowning to those who are out of it . in montem sanctum tuum — ] into his holy mountain . his holy mountain is his holy church . this is the mountain which according to the vision of daniel , grew to this vastness from a small stone and breaks all the kingdoms of the earth , and which encreased in greatness till it filled the whole surface of the earth . in this mountain he was heard , who said , i cryed with my voice unto the lord , and he heard me from his holy mountain . whosoever prays besides this mountain , let him not hope to be heard to eternal life . many are heard in many of their requests ; but let them not boast because they are heard . the devils were heard in their request to be sent into the swine , let us desire to be heard to eternal life . there cannot possibly be made any reformation of such importance , as the mischief of schism is pernicious . nobiscum estis in baptismo — ] you ( donatists ) are with us in baptism , in the creed , and in the other sacrament of our lord. but in the spirit of unity , in the bond of peace , and finally in the catholic church you are not with us . tenenda est nobis christiana religio — ) christian religion is to be held by us , and the communion of that church which is catholic , and is named catholic , not only by her children , but also even by her enemies . fieri non potest — ) it cannot possibly be , that any one should have a just cause to separate his communion from the communion of the whole world . ut hanc omittam sapientiam — ] not to speak of that wisdom , which you do not believe to be in the catholic church , there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom : the consent of people and nations keeps me : the authority begun by miracles , nourished by hope , encreased by charity , established by antiquity keeps me there : a succession of bishops from the chair of st. peter ( to whom our lord after his ascension committed his sheep to be fed ) to the present pontificate , keeps me there , lastly , the very name of catholic keeps me there , which name the church alone among so many heresies hath not without just reason possessed , insomuch as though all heretics are desirous to be called catholics , yet if a stranger asketh any of them where the catholic congregation meets , not any of them has the boldness to shew him his own temple . these therefore so many and so great bonds , keep a believer firm in the catholic church , although by reason of his natural dulness , and perhaps his sins , he does not manifestly see and penetrate the depth of divine truths . but among you ( heretics ) who have none of these advantages to invite or hold me , nothing is heard to sound , but a ( vain ) promise of true doctrine , &c. firmissime tene , et nullatenus dubites — ] hold most firmly and doubt not at all that every heretic or schismatic baptised in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy ghost , if [ before he dies ] he be not joyned and incorporated into the catholic church , he can by no means be saved , though he should give never so many alms , yea though he should shed his blood for the name of christ ; for neither baptism nor liberal distributing of alms , nor the undergoing death for the name of christ can profit any one to salvation , as long as heretical or schismatical lewdness perseveres in him , which leadeth to [ eternal ] death . §. 3. of the catholic churches authority . of interpreting scripture . saint augustine informs us that a certain acquaintance of his derided the disciples of catholic faith , by which men were commanded to believe [ the church ] not being taught by demonstrative reasons what was true . to satisfie this friend , he wrote his book de utilitate credendi [ ecclesiae ] in which he writes thus , it is fitly instituted by the majesty of catholic discipline , that those who come to religion , should before all other things be perswaded to believe [ the church ] but you will say , were it not better that reason should be employed to move me , which without any temerity i might follow withersoever it leads me ? perhaps it might be so : but since to come to the knowledge of god by reason is a matter of so great importance and difficulty , do you think that generally all men are capable of searching into the reasons by which mens minds may be brought to a knowledg of divine mysteries ? or are the greatest number of men such ? or but a few ? i suppose you will answer , but a few . if so , do you think that the knowledg of religion is to be denyed to all the rest , who have not so piercing a judgment ? — — it is a miserable thing to be deceived by authority ; but it is much more miserable not to be moved by it . if gods providence does not preside over human affairs , there will be no cause why we should trouble our selves about religion — we ought not therefore to despair that some authority is constituted by god , by which those who walk doubtfully may be raised up to god. puto si quis sapiens extitisset — ] i conceive that if there were extant a wise man to whom our lord had given his testimony , [ viz. that he should be directed by him : ] and if that man were consulted by us concerning this controversie , we should not at all doubt to do whatsoever he enjoyned us , least we should be adjudged to oppose our selves , not so much to that man himself , as to our lord jesus christ , by whose testimony he is recommended . now such testimony doth our lord afford to his church . haeretici qui cum in unitate — ] heretics , who though they be not in catholic unity and communion , yet glory in the title of christians , are compelled to oppose orthodox believers , and they have the boldness to attempt the seducing unskilful christians by force of disputing and reasoning , whereas our lord came with a peculiar medicine against this , when he enjoyned ( not reasoning , but ) believing to all people . but heretics are forced to take the way of arguing by reason , because they see themselves in a most abject condition , if their authority be compared with catholic authority . therefore they endeavour to prevail by a pretence and promise of reason against the most unshaken authority of the firmly established church . this is the uniform , and , as it were , regular temerity of all heretics . but the most clement emperor of our faith has fortified with the citadel of authority his church , both by numerous congregations of people and nations , and the chairs of his apostles ; he also by a few piously learned and truly spiritual men has armed his church with most copious provisions of invincible reason . but the more secure and rational discipline is , that those who are ignorant or infirm should be received within the castle of faith ( depending on authority ) that they may be defended by those who can combate with the weapons of most powerful reason . noc nos ipsi tale aliquid auderemus asserere — ) neither durst we affirm any such thing ( viz. that hereties ought not to be rebaptized ) if we were not strengthned by the unanimous authority of the universal church : to which authority , no doubt , cyprian ( who held the contrary ) would have submitted , if in his time the truth of this question had been established by the examination and decision of a plenary council . proinde quamvis hujus rei certe de scripturis canonicis non proferatur exemplum — ) although no express example can be brought out of canonical scriptures touching this point ( of rebaptization : ) yet the truth of the same scriptures in this matter is held by us , when we do that which has pleased the universal church , which the authority of scripture themselves does commend , that since the holy scripture cannot deceive ( us , ) he whosoever is in fear of being deceived by the obscurity of this question , may consult the same church about it , which church the holy scripture doth without all ambiguity demonstrate . aliud est cum authoritati credimus ) it is one thing when we believe , submitting to authority ; and another when we yield to reason , to believe authority is a way very compendious and without labour . et si nulla ratione indagetur ) whatsoever is from ancient times preached by our orthodox faith , and believed through the whole church , though by no search of reason it can be found out , and though by no speech it can be clearly expressed , yet notwithstanding it is ( to be acknowledged ) most true . haeretici sunt sibi arbitri religionis ) heretics are to themselves judges of religion ; whereas the proper work of religion is the duty of obedience ( to authority . non ad scripturas provocandum est ) we must not ( disputing with heretics ) appeal to scripture . neither is the debate to be constituted in things , in which either no victory at all will follow , or an uncertain one , or little better than uncertain . for though the success of examining scriptures should not be such , that each party should have no advantage over the other ; yet due order requires that that should be first proposed , about which at present we are to dispute , viz. to which of the parties ( the preaching of ) faith belongs : who have right to the scriptures : from whom , and by whom , and when , and to whom that discipline has been delivered by which men are made christians : for where the truth both of christian discipline and faith shall appear to be , there also will be the truth of scriptures and expositions , and all christian traditions . si quid horum per orbem frequentat ecclesia — ) amongst such things , whatsoever is practised by the church through the world , to dispute whether she ought not to be imitated therein , is a mark of most insolent madness . scire sufficit — ) it is a sufficient motive to reject from our belief whatsoever we know to be contrary to the teaching of the church . dicet aliquis , si divinis eloquiis ) it may be demanded , how , if both the devil and his disciples do make use of and apply divine scriptures , sentences and promises , of whom some are false apostles , others false prophets , and all of them heretics : what shall catholic children of our mother the church do ? how shall they discern truth from falshood in ( interpreting ) holy scriptures ? hereto we answer , ( according as we have received from holy and learned men before us ) that they must be very careful to interpret scriptures according to the traditions of the universal church , and according to the rules of catholic doctrine . the second question : but , why are you a protestant ? §. 45 cath. sir , have you considered seriously on the subject of our last discourse ? prot. yes . cath. and have you found either in scripture . tradition , councils , or holy fathers , any warrant to remain divided , both in doctrine and discipline , from all churches antiently existent upon earth ; and at the same time to profess , notwithstanding , a belief of one , holy , catholic church , out of whose communion there is no salvation . prot. i freely accknowledge that i am not able to produce any considerable quotations to confront yours : quotations , i mean , asserting the authority of particular , or new-erected churches , independent on others . cath. then since , it seems , both scripture , tradition , councils and fathers have given their testimonies against you , why are you ( still ) a protestant ? §. 46. prot. sir , i suppose you do believe i should be very glad to find out a church to whose authority i could think my self obliged entirely to submit mine own judgment , and securely to commit my soul to her guidance . but hitherto not having been able to find such an one , i must be content to stay where i am : for as for the roman church , to whose communion alone you would invite me , she appears to me so wholly depraved , that i think a real miracle would hardly draw me to joyn my self to her communion . cath. i see , sir , that you , despairing to justifie your own churches , and to excuse them from schism , do seek to draw me to particular disputes : by which notwithstanding you can receive no benefit at all , whatever the success of such disputes shall be : for still the unpardonable guilt of schism will lie upon you . however i will not refuse so far to comply with you . therefore tell me , wherein consists that depravation you speak of ? prot. it consists in this , that both her doctrines and discipline are framed , as on purpose to comply with wordly interests : and by consequence are opposed to the spirit of christianity . cath. how does that appear ? §. 47. prot. it appears more than sufficiently in this that ( as the late learned arcbishop of spalato observes ) all those points of your belief and practice which we condemn , and for which we separate from your church , are such as manifestly have a strong influence on the satisfying either her ambition or covetousness . cath. which are the points which you suppose to comply with ambition ? prot. these which here follow : 1. your churches assuming the title of catholic to her self alone , with exclusion of all other churches . 2. the popes assumed universal authority . 3. his pretended infallibility in determining controversies . 4. his usurped temporal authority . 5. a power to be acknowledged as given to priests , by consecrating the outward symbols , to make the glorified body of our saviour present on the alter . 6. the offering it in sacrifice to the father . 7. the exposing of it to mens adoration . 8. the obligation imposed on all sinners to discover their most secret sins to priests in confession , and to submit to satisfactions enjoyned by them . 9. a proud esteem of attaining to iustification and salvation by your own merits . thus your clergy , not content to invent doctrines proper to procure their own exaltation ; would instill pride into the people also . §. 48. cath. for what doctrines do you accuse the roman church of covetousness . prot. of this latter sort are the romane doctrines . 1. touching prayer for the dead and purgatory , out of the torments whereof souls are to be redeemed by masses , alms , &c. 2. the gaining of heaven by mony given for indulgences . 3. the invocation of saints . 4. the worshipping of their images and relicks : to which pilgrimages are ordained with costly offerings , &c. §. 49. cath. this observation , made by the infamous apostate you named , if rightly considered , truly seems to argue a guilt somewhere ; yet not in the church , but much rather in those who seperated from her . for it strongly argues , that , since , to oppose her , they made choice only of those points which regarded the honour , authority and wealth of the clergy ; the true motives inducing them to rebel against the church , were , not any zeal for truth , or care for their souls ( for they acknowledg her orthodox , as to all points of doctrine approved by former heretics . ) that therefore which stirred up their rage against her was envy , hatred of obedience , and a thirst unquenchable to rob her of the treasure and possessions conferred on her by the piety of their holy progenitours . now sir , tell me sincerely , if you were to establish a church , would you take for your pattern that schismatical king ieroboam , who chose priests from the dreggs of the people ; or god himself , who instituted a splendid clergy ? prot. it cannot indeed be denied , but that contemptible , needy and depending directours of souls will but very meanly discharge so high an office as christ has committed to them , having made them spiritual iudges of mankind , and stiled them the light of the world , and the salt of the earth . §. 50. cath. if the first reformers had been of your judgment , they would first have reformed in themselves their inordinate passions . but , sir , if you please , let us leave the judgment of mens secret intentions to almighty god , to whom alone they are open and transparent . however , this may with full assurance be asserted , that if sacriledge and freedom from ecclesiastical iurisdiction were not the only prime motives , they were , and will be , the prime effects of your multiplied reformations . §. 51. prot. i am well content to desist from enquiring into the secret thoughts of persons on either side : and therefore i will henceforth consider the forementioned points in debate between us , absolutely and in themselves . and so doing , you must give me leave to say , that this also may with full assurance be asserted , that , whatever motives the roman church may have to require belief of them , we cannot assent to them without rendring our selves guilty of apparent contradicting scripture generally in them all , and no less than the heynous crimes of superstition and idolatry in several of them . cath. i do not much wonder to hear from you so a cruel a censure of our catholic belief . yea , perhaps i should my self joyn with you in the like , if i should take a prospect of the church by the same false light that i perceive you have done . prot. why , sir , from whence should i receive light to discover what you teach , but from our controvertists ? §. 52. cath. i did not at all doubt from whence that which you call light came . and therefore permit me to tell you , that if you frame your judgment touching the faith , of catholics by what you find commonly in controvertists , you will condemn you know not what , nor whom . prot. this is strange : do none of our controvertists understand what your church teaches ? §. 53. cath. what , and how much they understand i cannot define . but this i may with confidence say , that generally judging of your controvertists , not a twentieth part of one of their volumes contains an examination of the necessary faith of the church , which faith notwithstanding is pretended to be confuted in every page . prot. notwithstanding what you say , yet your controvertists also in answering our books , do take on them to defend whatsoever ours oppose as the doctrines of your church . cath. it is too true indeed of some of them ; who deserve much to be blamed for giving thereby occasion to our adversaries to multiply unnecessary debates , by a partial esteem of their own private , adopted opinions , of their peculiar interpretations of the churches doctrines , their probable additions to them , and inferences from them : all which they are desirous should pass for points of catholic faith. besides this , several schoolmen there are , whose end of writing being to boast their wit and subtilty , who will penetrate into all things ; no mysteries shall be incomprehensible to their philosophy , and who think it a great mastery to advance positions bordering on the very brink of heresie , speculative or moral , and then by some nice distinction to prove them , if not orthodox , at least not deserving the utmost censures . and of these mens rashness protestants oft-times take advantage , and zealously oppose them , as if the church were obliged to make good their aery speculations . §. 54. prot. what expedient then do you propose to me by which i may be certainly informed of your churches doctrines . cath. the way is plain , easie and short , if you will look before you and not wilfully go out of it . prot. i pray you put me into that way . cath. the way is to examine candidly and seriously the churches own decisions only , which if you do , you will find how little she is concern'd in the accusations you lay against her . prot. if this prove true , surely our modern controvertists have a dreadful account to make to god , who seem studiously to design the widening of the breaches amongst christians . cath. that what i say is true , i dare take the confidence to make your self the iudge . and this i undertake to demonstrate through all the controverted points before mentioned by you , not by disputing , alledging proofs , or answering objections ; but only by representing to you , in a simple manner , the pure , naked doctrine of the church in relation to all these points . prot. i am likewise sufficiently averse from clamorous disputes , which commonly are only prizes of a quick fancie or voluble tongue , and fomentors of unruly passions . therefore i expect what you intend to say . §. 55. cath. before i begin , i have a few requests ( in my judgment not unreasonable ) to make to you . the first is , 1. that ( having supposed that upon a true or false belief eternity of happiness or misery depends ) you would force your imagination to put your self in that state in which your first reformers really were , immediately before they broke from the churches obedience and communion , and supposing that you were earnestly tempted by them also to forsake it , by adhering to a new-begun society , never heard of in the world before , upon a pretence that the church in which you live , and which you as yet esteem to be the true catholic church , teaches most pernicious errours , superstitions , and idolatrous practices : of the justice of which pretence your tempters , now declared enemies , will needs be the iudges . prot. this i will endeavour to perform . §. 56. 2. cath. my second request is , that you will acknowledge that the doctrines of catholic faith , once decided by the church , are to be understood in the plain literal sence , and in the latitude of the churches expression . and by consequence that when they are severally restrained to different particular senses by interpretation of catholic writers , such interpretations are not necessarily to be admitted by you : and much less are other doctrins , by inference drawn from them , to be esteemed points of catholic faith , but only opinions of particular divines , which do not oblige to assent . prot. this ought in reason to be acknowleged . §. 57. 3. cath. my third and last request is , that , when your tempters shall tell you that the catholic church teaches dostrins contrary to scripture , you would acknowledge that unless such a pretended contrariety can be evidently demonstrated to you , you ought not for that cause to forsake the churches communion : for undoubtedly ; where her doctrines seem only probably contrary to some text of scripture , her authority is such as to oblige you to belive that her sence ought to be preferred before that of her enemies , who are desstitute of all authority . and it would be madness to transgress the necessary duty of peaceful obedience and of avoiding schism , upon a probable hope of finding some truths , elsewhere . prot. reason requires that this also be granted . §. 58. cath. these concessions therefore being presupposed , give me leave to put you in mind of what you said at the entrance into this our discourse , viz. that , this may be with full assurance asserted , that you cannot assent to any of those doctrines taught by the roman church , and rejected by your party , without rendering your self guilty of apparent contradicting scripture . prot. i remember this well : but how will you disprove me ? cath. if this perswasion of yours were well grounded , it would be not only in vain , but unlawful for me to seek to withdraw you from it . but being on the other side assured , that what you say is apparent , is only so in a false appearance to your mind prepossessed ; i hope i may without vanity promise to demonstrate to you , that you only think , an this without ground , that you are assured . prot. you make large promises to your self , which i believe will have small effect upon me . cath. sir , truth and a good intention make me confident , that divine grace , which is omnipotent , will accompany them . whereas therefore you say , that roman doctrines are apparently , or evidently contrary to scripture : i desire you to take into consideration that the same roman church , at the same time , both proposed the belief of those doctrins to your first reformers , and also gave them the scriptures , testifying that they were the infallible word of god. therefore certainly it was far from being evident to her that her doctrines did evidently contradict divine revelation . now you will not surely deny but that in the catholic church there are men as learned , and those in a far greater number , than among protestants , men , i say , who also make the scriptures their principal study , and have published almost innumerable commentaries on them ; again , men , of whom a great number live sequestred from the world , in an assiduous practice of spiritual prayer , and therefore not likely to have their judgments perverted by worldly interests : yet not any one of these does see , or but suspect that the faith they profess is contradicted by gods word : on the contrary , they invincibly demonstrate , that the church has been , as the only depository of scripture , so likewise of the true sence of it : how comes then that to be evident to you , which is invisible to them ? which way went the spirit of god , from the whole church , to inhabite a debauched incestuous fryer , or a stigmatized pichard , upon whose credit doubtless you have taken up your evidence ? if they could have shewed you in scripture such passages as these , the pope is not the supream bishop and visible head of the church : bread by sanctification does not become the body of christ ; we ought not to confess our sins to priests : purgatory is a meer humane invention : it is an injury to christ to desire saints , but none to desire sinners , to pray for us , &c. such sayings indeed as these might have justifyed your charge against the church , that she contradicts scripture . but where are such sayings to be found , except it be in the heretical writings , of your reformers ? on the contrary , some points contradictory to those are found litterally contained in scripture ; and to elude them you are foced to have recourse to figurative sences , and the rest are conveyed to us by the same authority , by which we receive the scripture it self , yea by the holy fathers justified as consonant to scripture : and however i suppose you will not say , that silence is equivolent to express contradiction . the utmost that you can say is , that perhaps you can produce now and then some scattered texts of scripture from which you can make a shew of arguing against some tenets of the catholic church ; but what will that avail you , since probability ( as hath been said ) will not excuse you for omitting a necessary duty of obedience , and incurring the horible guilt of schism . where now do you see an evidence that the church contradicts scripture ? prot. i shall be better enabled to give a resolution in this point , when , according to your promise , you shall have given me an account of the necessary doctrines of your church in the points controverted between us . §. 60. cath. that promise i will now , with gods assistance , discharge through all the points mentioned by you in the beginning . and first as touching the two first points , viz. 1. the churches authority . 2. the popes universal iurisdiction , &c. enough hath been said in our former discourse . yet for your further satisfaction i will enlarge my self a little more . take therefore into your consideration that it is a fundamental truth agreed on by all catholics , that the only objects of catholic faith are such divine truths as are revealed in gods word , and also proposed to all by the catholic church to be believed by divine faith. now this general ground being presupposed , in case any controversies should arise touching the sence of any divine truths revealed , it is unquestionably necessary that some means should be appointed by god to determine such controversies , and to prevent a dissipation of his church by heresies and schisms . and what other mean can be imagined efficacious hereto then what hath been taught and practised even from the apostles time , and this declared by the council of trent . that no man trusting to his own prudence ( or skill ) shall presume to interpret holy scripture in matters of faith or manners pertaining to edification of christian doctrine , wresting it to his own sences , against that sence which our holy mother the church doth , or hath held ( to whom it belongs to judg of the true sence and interpretation of holy scriptures ) or also against the unanimous consent of the fathers ? this is that which the roman catholic church teaches concerning her authority of interpreting controverted texts of scripture . no more then this is any catholic obliged to believe . now i leave it to your conscience whether you can think it a sufficient ground for you to break from her communion upon this quarrel , because she judges more fit that the judgment of the whole body of teachers and governors appointed by god in her , should prevail against your single judgment , or that of a few apostat-ministers : especially considering the promises made by our lord to his apostles and their lawful successors , that his spirit should remain with them and direct them into all truth , till the end of the world , so as that the gates of hell ( that is , say the fathers , heresies ) should never prevail against them . prot. i see it is in vain to contradict this . §. 61. cath. let us next proceed to what the church has determined touching the priviledges and authority of the prime pastor the bishop of rome . thus then we read in the confession of faith collected by the pope himself out of the council of trent , i acknowledg the holy catholic and apostolic roman church to be the mother and mistress of all churches : and i promise true obedience to the bishops of rome , successor of st. peter prince of the apostles , and vicar of iesus christ. here the see apostolic being acknowledged the mother and mistress of all churches , and the pope vicar of christ , his universal iurisdiction , is therein acknowledged , which jurisdiction , or authority , we are not to suppose to be arbitrary and unlimitted : but ( as we read in a canon of the council of florence consented to by the emperor , patriark and other bishops of greece ) to be exercised [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. ] after the manner as is also contained in the gests of oecumenical councils and sacred canons . and such a primacy invested with authority as this the general council of chalcedon ( admitted by protestants ) does acknowledg in him : which is also attested by tradition , and practice from the beginning . §. 62. now the necessity of such a standing authority in gods church is thus grounded . the absolutely supream ecclesiastical authority , against which can lye no appeal , is confessedly residing in a lawful general council , by which all debates whatsoever may be determined , all necessary laws enacted , &c. but it being a matter of infinite difficulty , especially since the division of the roman empire , to bring together so vast an assembly from all regions , and yet unity , essential to the church , being always to be preserved , which cannot be done without a supereminent goverment always existent , hence it is come to pass that the supream bishop and successor of the prince of the apostles , has even from the beginning been acknowledged this supereminent governor through all the whole church , to take care that the common established laws , former definitions and decisions of the church be every where observed and professed ; to prevent any innovations in doctrine ; and also to end controversies among catholics ( if any arise ) at least by silencing contentious disputes till a general council may further consider them : by which all schisms are prevented ; and also heresies , that is any doctrines that are declared by this supream pastor contrary to former church-definitions perpetually crushed : and lastly to judg in causis majoribus ; when quarrels arise among patriarks , metropolitans , &c. thus stands the case ; and now i appeal to your own conscience , whether you can imagine any other expedient for preserving a general peace and unity in gods church : and whether if you were appointed , and also enabled , to frame such a church as was necessarily to continue always one body , reason it self would not dictate the same order to you . experience shews that all divisions both in the west and east are to be ascribed to mens renouncing obedience to this common governor . §. 63. prot. truly sir , i cannot but acknowledg that to preserve order and peace in so vast a body as the church is , there must of necessity be a government ; and if government then subordination and consequently an established supream governor . and now methinks reflecting upon ecclesiastical history , i see clearly that such an orderly government was settled in the church by the apostles themselves . for if , as some among us pretend , the same apostles had intended no supereminence of bishops above presbyters , and no degrees of authority among bishops , it could not possibly have happened , that a few unarmed bishops , not assisted by secular power , should , so immediately after the apostles , have subdued such a world of presbiters , formerly supposed their equals , to their iurisdiction , and no marks be left in any antient writers to shew that those presbyters resisted , or so much as complained against such an usurpation and tyranny . and the like may be said touching the subordination of simple bishops to metropolitans , primate , patriarks ; and of all these to the supream pastor : though probably those titles came into the church in posteriour ages . therefore upon due consideration i cannot deny but my aversion to such and so qualified an authority of the bishop of rome , as you say is moderated by the churches decision , is very much abated . cath. since therefore you now see a way how to avoid danger from this ( to you formerly ) rock of offence , i may , i suppose , proceed to the following points of controversie touching the holy eucharist , &c. §. 64. 3. of the popes temporal authority and iurisdiction . prot. no , sir , you go too fast : for , though i am perswaded that our first reformers with all their rhetoric should not have drawn me with them out of the church , upon this motive of opposing such an authority in the pope , as has been acknowledged by general councils , and the ordinary exercise of it to be regulated by approved canons , since , i suppose such authority regards only ecclesiastical affairs . but your church will not be contented with this : for she will extend it also to temporal matters , even to the disposing of kingdoms , deposing of princes , absolving subjects from their natural allegiance expresly commanded in holy scripture , &c. cath. where do you find that our church invests the pope with such an authority ? prot. i cannot distinctly tell you that : but of this i am assured that the pope challenges it , and as by divine right . cath. how do you ground such an assurance ? you will not surely esteem this to be an irrefragrable proof thereof , because some of his predecessors have challenged it , when as for above a thousand years before them not any precedent pope ever pretended to it . but let it be supposed that the present pope did now challenge it : will you not live in a community in which the governor challenges more then you will grant to be his due . prot. no truly : especially if that authority , to which he pretended , endangers the ruine of kingdoms , or the utter banishment of peace every where . for such an authority , i am sure , was never established on earth by our saviour , who is the prince of peace . and that which makes me assured hereof is this , because if christ had had such an intention of dissolving the frame of all civil government through the world , he would have left in scripture , or tradition , most express proofs of such his will , in a matter of that infinite importance : whereas the quite contrary rather appears . cath. you say well . but will you run out of the church in case a pope should chance to challenge more then his due , when perhaps no obligation lies upon you to submit to such authority challenged by him , or to acknowledg the justice of it ? prot. dare you disacknowledg this authority ? §. 65. cath. what i acknowledg or disacknowledg is not material . but to rectify your mistake , i will sincerely acquaint you with the whole matter as it stands at this day : and thence you may collect what must be required from you , in case you are a catholic . prot. you will much oblige me therein . cath. then , it cannot be denyed that ( besides that temporal power indeed belonging to the pope within his own dominions , of which he is now the temporal soveraign ) several popes in former times have both challenged , and actually exercised an unlimitted temporal iurisdiction over other kingdoms and empires . which iurisdiction , if it hath not been expresly acknowledged as just , yet it hath been sometimes submitted to by kings , either obnoxious and unable to resist , or desirous to make use of it for their own advantage against enemies or rebels . several examples hereof remain in our records , particularly during the raigns of king iohn and henry the third . but generally princes , when freed from such exigences , have resolutely and stoutly resisted such pretentions of the roman court. if we now descend to latter times , and cast our view on the present state of christendom , we shall find kings and states so far from admitting such an exorbitant forrain iurisdiction to be exercised or acknowledged within their dominions , that not any of them will permit rescripts , bulls or mandats from rome , though regarding even ecclesiastical affairs ( unless touching private inferior persons ) to be published , and much less executed within their states , till examined and approved in their respective councils . nay more then this : even the canons of reformation prescribed by the general council of trent , as far as they are suspected to entrench upon the temporal power of princes , have always been refused to be admitted in france , the pope not only knowing , but expresly allowing such refusal ; as appears by the bull of pope clement the eight sent to king henry the fourth , at his reception into the church , and recited by cardinal perron in his epistles : in which bull we find this clause ; his majesty shall effectually take order that the council of trent he published and admitted in all things , excepting only ( at your must earnest supplication and petition ) those things , if there be any such , which cannot be put in execution without a real disturbance of public tranquility . the king of spain likewise , though believed to be more complyant with the court of rome , being sollicited by the pope to publish and admit the same council in his belgick provinces , though he willingly yielded thereto , yet he did it not without this additional clause adjoyned , touching the regalities , rights , prerogatives and preeminences of his majesty , his vassals , estates and subjects ; the laycal iurisdiction hitherto used , the right of lay-patronage the right of nomination , hearing of causes in the possessory matter of benefices , tithes possessed or pretended to by seculars , &c. in regard of all such things his majesties intention is , that proceedings shall go on as hitherto they have done , without changing any thing at all , &c. so necessarily scrupulous are christian princes to prevent the least diminution of their temporal rights and priviledges . more lately likewise when certain authors of one order published several treatises , in which they endeavoured to exalt to the height the popes iurisdiction universal in temporal affairs , those books were censured and condemned by many catholic universities , and committed to the fire by public authority , the pope not being ignorant hereof . and moreover ( which perhaps is yet more considerable ) the superior general of the said religious order , even in rome it self , published an edict ( known to all christendom ) by which he strictly forbad his subjects , under most heavy censures , to maintain such a temporal iurisdiction of the pope , either in books , sermons or disputations . now that which makes this so solemn a prohibition of more weight is this , that whereas the foresaid authors earnestly contended to prove that all christians were obliged to believe the popes right to such authority , as an article of our christian faith , the said general ▪ by publishing his prohibitory edict , clearly shewed that he renounced the belief of such a doctrine : for otherwise , who but a● antichrist would so severely under a penalty of excommunication forbid the teaching or defending an article of faith ? and moreover in a general chapter not long after assembled , the said prohibition was ratified by all superiors of the same order , as their own writers testifie . prot. i must needs confess that christian princes , and subjects too ▪ are much beholding to that worthy general for his prudence and zeal to prevent occasions of tumults and seditions . notwithstanding it seems to me that princes are not yet secure : for though the said doctrine should cease to be esteemed an article of faith , why may it not be defended as an opinion , at least speculatively probable ? and if so , a slender probability will have force but too great to raise and foment rebellions , when discontents are multiplied among the people . §. 66. cath. you are much deceived , sir. for besides that you may be sure that princes will never permit their authority to be rendred questionable , the very pretending such a doctrine to be only probable , is equivalently to grant that it is no authority at all : since every one knows , that a meer probable title against a long established possession ( such as is that of princes for their temporal soveraignty ) is in law and reason accounted no title : and consequently none who have any sence of christianity will ever seek , with the horrible scandal of religion to instill such a manifestly unjust incentive to rebellion into the minds of christians . and now , sir , i beseech you to consider things seriously , and then judg with what injustice and cruelty our whole religion and church is condemned , as teaching treason and rebellion , and this only for a few private mens writings , so generally abhorred by our selves . prot. all i can say hereto is , that for as much as concerns my self , i will be no longer an accuser of your church in this matter . proceed therefore if you please , to the other following points . 4. of the real presence and transubstantiation . §. 67. cath. the next point of catholic doctrine , opposed by all sectaries , regards the holy eucharist . their rage against the former is indeed greater , because interest is more concerned in it : but a greater advantage for seducing the ignorant people they make of this , because they permit them to judg of this most dreadful mystery by their outward senses , which , catholics , instructed by holy fathers , tell them are not to be believed here . in the eucharist the first matter of dispute , and ground of the rest , is the catholic doctrine touching the real presence of our lords body on the altar after consecration of the symbole , thus declared in the council of trent , i prosess that in the most holy sacrament of the eucharist is present truly and substantially the body and the blood , together with the soul and divinity of our lord iesus christ : and that there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into his body , and of the whole substance of the wine into his blood : which conversion the catholic church calls transubstantiation . this article of our belief is to us solidly established on the words of institution . this is my body : which words without any figurative explication are repeated alike by three evangelists and the apostle saint paul : therefore we believe , following universal tradition , that our lord sincerely meant as he spake ; and because we believe so , we are hated . prot. but how can you expect that we should assent hereto , since our senses contradict it ? §. 68. cath. you cannot say however that our senses are deceived : for in this great mystery they have a right perception of their proper objects , to wit , colour , extention , figure , &c. neither i suppose , will you say that the judgment which reason from the senses collects , is always infallible . for if so , then ( for example ) our saviour whilst living on earth should have been judged a meer man : and the angels , appearing to lot and his daughters , no angels but meer men : for so would reason , relying on the outward senses , have judged . prot. in these examples divine revelation expresly teaches the contrary . cath. then if in the present case you were assured by divine revelation that god by a supernatural power did on the priests consecrating the symbols produce a real change of the outward elements into the body and blood of christ , you would believe god against your senses . prot. i should no doubt . §. 69. cath. can you have a greater assurance hereof , then the express words of christ literally understood by the constant tradition of all churches in all ages ? prot. such an assurance truly would to me be sufficient . cath. then , since we are not met here to mannage a formal dispute , give me leave to desire you seriously to peruse what has passed very lately in writings on this argument between monsieur arnauld a doctor of sorbon , and the most subtle of the huguenot ministers called monsieur claude . there , besides testimonies of antiquity , you will find our catholic doctrine acknowledged by the prime bishops of greece , muscovy , armenia , and many other oriental sects , who by their attestations , subscribed with their names before witnesses , have professed that the doctrine touching the real presence and change of the visible elements into the very body and blood of christ , is the constant doctrine of all their respective congregations , and that it has been so delivered to them by their ancestors from the beginning . prot. truly sir , if this appear to me , i shall not trouble my self with doubts or objections from school philosophy ; nor examine the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] how such a change is made : which examination hath been long since condemned by st. cyrill of alexandria , but humbly submit my judgment and assent to what god has revealed , as i do also in the mysteries of the blessed trinity , the incarnation , &c. for indeed i find that the doctrine touching the holy eucharist has from the beginning been delivered as a mystery also incomprehensible by natural reason . §. 70. cath. you may add hereto , that even the calvinists themselves , though the most perverse enemies to this mystery , yet afford a considerable proof of it against themselves . for seeing clearly the tradition touching the real presence so fully attested in the writings of the holy fathers and in ancient councils , they , even when they endeavour with most eagerness to oppose it , oppose it in language counterfeiting that of antiquity ; so ashamed are they to renounce both the sense and expressions too , of the primitive church . this may be observed not only in the polemical writings of mestrezat , anbertin and others of their champions , but even in their catechism and simple confession of their faith. for , there we read ; that our saviour nourishes and quickens us with the substance of his body and blood , that he is given us in the sacrament according to his proper substance ; and that , though he be truly communicated to us both by baptism and the gospel ; yet that is only in part , and not entirely ( so that it seems , in the eucharist they receive him whole and entirely . ) moreover , that the body of the lord iesus , in as much as it hath been once offered in sacrifice to reconcile us to god , it is now ( in the eucharist ) given us to rectify us that we have part in that reconciliation . § , 71. and as for english protestants the time was within mans memory , when not only the prelates of this church ( without huguenotical hypocrisy ) delivered their belief of this mystery in expressions very catholic ; but his majesties learned and wise grand-father giving the world an account of the faith of that church of which he was the head , delivers it thus , we acknowledg a presence ( of christ in the sacrament no less true , then you ( roman catholics : ) but we dare not determine the manner of it . neither truly dare we catholics . thus learned protestants wrote and spoke before this last , worse then zuinglian reformation and new rubrick : since which time the english church has permitted all fanatical sectaries to make her a brocher of all their frenzies , and a justifier of doctrines which devour her very vitals . prot. enough of this , sir , be pleased now to proceed to the next point . 5. of adoration of christ in the holy eucharist . §. 72. cath. the next controverted doctrine , regards the adoration of christ in the holy sacrament . concerning which the sum of the churches faith is comprized in this her decision ; whosoever shall say , that christ the only begotten son of god ought not to be adored in the holy sacrament of the eucharist with the supream worship ( latria ) even external — and that his adorers are idolaters , let him be anathema . now the doctrine touching the real presence , being once established , will sufficiently justify this : for certainly it is not only lawful , but our duty to adore christ whereever he is truly present . and consequently this practice of adoring our lord in his sacrament is by the same universal tradition delivered , and ordained in all publick liturgies , both of the grecian and other oriental churches . §. 73. but the great , and too willing mistake of our adversaries is , that they impute to us the adoration of the visible elements : whereas the proper object of our worship is not any visible thing , nay , we do not terminate our worship percisely in the body of christ which we beleive invisibly present : the proper object of our worship is the person of christ god and man veiled under the visible elements . so that in case it should happen through some incapacity in the minister , or defect in the manner or matter , that the elements should not be effectually consecrated , and yet we , ( beleiving christs body to be sacramentally present , ) should so worship him , in this indeed would be a circumstantial mistake , but here would be no idolatry , nor indeed any fault in us , the errour being supposed undiscoverable by us . the reason is , because the belief of the presence of christs body is truly grounded on divine revelation ; and not a fond fancy such as was that of the manicheans worshiping christ as peculiarly present in the sun , or of the isrealites conceiving god to be peculiarly present in the calves at bethel . and to this you may see daille yeilding his consent , in his apology for the reformed churches , the eleventh chapter . it is observable with what strange and unreasonable partiality the calvinists treat catholics in this point : they give their judgment that there is no dangerous venome in the doctrine of the lutherans touching this matter , and therefore have synodically granted them admission to their cene which the lutherans scorn . now the lutherans profess the real presence of christs body together with the bread : and some of them acknowledg adoration due to him there . so that to a calvinists conscience the same , or a worse doctrine held by a sectary looses all its poyson : it is only dangerous to believe what the church teaches . yea those very calvinists acknowledg also , that if christ be in such a special manner really present , adoration would be due to him . some lutherans deny this . but whether they affirm or deny any thing , upon condition they will stay out of gods church , they shall be welcome brethren to calvinists . prot , truly such a dis-ingenuous want of honesty and such interessed compliance is very justly to be condemned . you may now proceed . 6. of the sacrifice and oblation of christs body on the altar . §. 74. cath. the next point , with regard to the holy eucharist , quarrelled at by protestants , is our doctrine touching the sacrifice of christs body on the altar concerning which the summ of the churches decision is as followeth : i profess that in the mass is offered to god a true , proper and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead . by which sacrifice that bloody sacrifice performed once on the cross is represented , and the memory of it remains till the end of the world : the saving vertue thereof is also applyed for the remission of those sins which are dayly commited by us . all catholics receive this decision , as it lyes : as for school-men , they according to their custom , raise a world of unnecessary disputes which are no where so multiplyed as on this incomprehensible mystery of the holy eucharist . but as many of their questions seem no way necessary , so no catholics are obliged to their decisions . §. 75. protestants set themselves against this sacrifice , upon a meer mistake of the term , which they will needs affirm to imply an immolation : and thereupon argue , that the roman church manifestly contradicts the authour of the epistle to the hebrews who affirms that christ hath now once in the end of the world appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself . and that he was once offered to bear the sins of many : and thence concludes the absolute perfection of that one sacrifice of christ once offered , which did not need be repeated , as the legal sacrifices did . but this pretended contradiction will quickly vanish , if we consider that though the sacrifices made by christ did accomplish all sorts of sacrifices and oblations in the law , yet the forementioned divine authour in a special manner compares it to that great anniversary sacrifice of general propitiation , in which after the killing of the beast , the high priest alone , and only once every year , carryed the blood into the holy of holies , and there sprinkled it before god. in like manner did our saviour after his bloody sacrifice on the cross , ascending into heaven by his own blood entered into the most holy place , having obtained eternal redemption for us . now these two acts of priesthood are by his commission in a sort , repeated by his servants whom he hath ordained priests in his church , and who according to saint augustine's expression are [ propriissime sacerdotes ] in a most proper sence sacrificing priests . for answerably to the acts of immolation , their sacrifice on the altar is only representative and commemorative , and expressed by seperating the body from the blood , yet so , that it is not barely a sign of christs death , for that alone would not be sufficient to entitle it a sacrifice ; but it also contains the victim whose death is represented . and again with regard to christs offering and presenting to his father his crucified body in the most holy place , or highest heaven , his priests truly and properly present and offer to almighty god the same body and blood really present on the holy altar , as a propitiation for the living and the dead . which propitiation is not at all injurious to that propitiation and eternal redemption purchased for us by our saviour , since it receives all its virtue from his bloody sacrifice , being instituted for an application of the said redemption . for thus also in an inferiour degree the same propitiation is applyed to us by other sacraments , as baptism , pennance , and absolution , and extream unction , yea also by the word preached , &c. and thus much even the french calvinists do acknowledge in their cene , as hath been shewed . now i desire you to judge what prejudice can come by the various applications of christs merits . prot. there seems to me now no such great difficulty in admitting a relative sacrifice , and a proper oblation . therefore you need not enlarge this point any further . 7. of communion under one species . §. 76. cath. the last subject of protestants quarrels against the church , with relation to the holy eucharist , is her ordaining to the laity , communion under one species only . now it is acknowledged that , as our saviour instituted this sacrament in both species , so for many ages together , it was , in public communions , received accordingly : i say , in public communions : for in other private occasions , as in sickness , at sea , and generally among the devout inhabitants of desarts , it was otherwise : yet these , receiving in one species only , did not esteem themselves deprived of any vertue pertaining to the integrity of the sacrament : and the reason is , because they generally believed ( as the church has now declared ) that it is most true , that as much is contained in each species , as under both : for whole and entire christ does exist under the species of bread , and under every particle of that species : in like manner whole christ does exist under the species of wine , and under its parts ( when separated ) upon this ground the church without intending the least prejudice to her children , has thought fit , for avoiding many inconveniences and irreverencies which did frequently occur by the negligence and confusion of such vast multitudes of communicants receiving the blood also , that all , excepting the priest who celebrated , should content themselves in public communions , as from the beginning christians did in private , with our lords body only under the species of bread , which is not obnoxious to the like inconveniencies , considering that hereby they should not be loosers of any part of the blessing . §. 77. this regards the holy eucharist considered as a sacrament . but as it is a sacrifice , both the species are necessary to the constitution of it , it being ordained to represent the death of christ by shedding his blood : which representation is made by consecreating and offering both the body and blood separatly . matters standing thus , it concerns you much to consider whether this be a just cause of your speration from the catholic church in which you might have been partaker truly and really of the precious body of christ : whereas in congregations divided from her , you , instead of the body and blood of our saviour , must content your self with a morsel of meer bread and a sup of wine . prot. i will , by gods assistance , think seriously on this . in the mean time you may proceed to the following points . 8. of sacramental confession , pennance and satisfaction . §. 78. cath. the next catholic doctrine severely censured by you , as an invention of the clergys ambition , is the obligation imposed by the catholic church on her subjects to confess their mortal sins , and to submit to satisfactions for them ; according to this canon , whosoever shall deny sacramental confession to have been instituted by divine law , or to be necesary to salvation : or shall affirm that the manner of confession secretly to the priest alone ( which the catholic church from the beginning hath allways and still doth observe ) is disagreeing from the institution and command of christ , and that it is a humane invention ; let him be anathema . this duty of confession of sins seems by this canon referred to that commission and privilege given by our saviour to his apostles and their successours , whose soever sins ye remit , they are remitted ; and whose soever sins ye retain they are retained , as likewise to the precept to saint iames , confess your sins one to another : which texts have been alwayes interpreted by the holy fathers in the same sense . the universal practice likewise of the iewish synagogue conformable hereto adds a considerable weight to induce us to a perswasion that it is by divine institution . for how can it be imagined that by any humane invention a duty so burthensom to flesh and blood , and to our natural pride , could have been introduced generally into the church , without sparing the awfull majesty of kings and modesty of queens , by an unarmed ecclesiastical power , the pope himself also owing such submission to a simple priest. §. 79. the ground of the necessity of this sacrament is , because those who by baptism having submitted themselves to the churches authority , afterwards do violate the laws of the gospel , ought to undergo the judgment of the same church in the tribunal of penance , where she exercises the power given her of remitting and retaining sins . now such judgment is esteemed as given by iesus christ himself , by whom and in whose place his priests are appointed iudges . it is this invisible high priest who after confession , sorrow and satisfaction interiourly absolves the penitent , whilst the priest , exercises the exteriour ministery , as a subordinate iudge , without whose concurrence sins shall not be remitted . §. 80. as for satisfactions imposed after confessions , they , according to the churches expression , regard only temporal pains due to our sins ; she does not teach that we can satisfie god for the guilt even of venial sins ; or for eternal pains . moreover she declares , that these satisfactions are accepted of god through the merits of christ : and that they do no way obscure the benefit of christs death , for christ by his death has so satisfied for our sins , that it is gods pleasure his satisfaction should not produce its full effects , till it be by us particularly applyed in the use of his sacraments and works worthy of penance : to which works his merits being linked , and not otherwise , our satisfactions will be accepted by him , through his pure grace and mercy . the lutherans , who seem so only to rely on christs passion for the remission of their sins , doubt not yet to profess that a previous faith is necessary thereto , for such as are come to the age of discretion , and baptism for infants . the difference then between us is , that they pretend to be justified by a dead faith , and we by a living . now therefore advise with your self whether you would forsake gods church rather then submit your self to a duty , without which that eminent priviledge given by our lord to his ministers for the general good of his people , of remitting sins , becomes vain and of no effect . prot. i will seriously think on this : and now expect what you will say concerning the other articles . 9. of indulgences . §. 81. cath. i will , if you think good , in the next place treat of the point touching indulgences , by reason of its affinity to the former . prot. i leave the method to your own choice . cath. concerning indulgences then the church hath thus delivered her sense : since the power of giving indulgences hath been bestowed on the church by iesus christ , and that she hath made use of this power , divinely left her , from antient times : the holy synod teaches and commends the use of indulgences , as very beneficial to all christian people , and approved by the authority of other holy synods ; and that they ought to be retained in the church ▪ and denounceth anathema against those who assert that they are unprofitable ; or deny that there is a power of giving them in the church . notwithstanding the synod admonishes that the granting of them be done with great moderation , according to the ancient and approved custome of the church ; for fear least by two great a remisness ecclesiastical discipline be weakned . thus we are taught by the church . and certain it is that there is not any point of catholic faith which , taken simply according to the churches own expression , is more evident , as to the truth of it , and less offensive , as to the use , then is this touching indulgences . yet after all , there is not any one point so embroyled by controvertists disputing for and against inferences and interpretations made by several schoolmen , which have occasioned most horrible scandals by abuses committed in practise : this having been the first occasion of luthers revolting and schism . §. 82. now forasmuch as regards the proper , necessary sence of this canon , those very schoolmen who advance the virtue of indulgences much beyond what will be allowed by many very learned catholics , yet do acknowledge that the church by her decision obliges us to believe as of faith only this , viz. that only such a power of conferring indulgences has been left by our lord to his church as from ancient times has been practised and approved by former synods , intending those that are usually cited to that purpose , as the first of nicea , can. 11. of neocaesare can. 3. of laodicea , can. 1. and 2. the fourth of carthage , cap. 75. and of agdes , can. 6. in all which synods we only find this , that it was always lawful and usual for bishops to remit to their penitents some part of those canonical penances which were inflicted for certain crimes , in case the life and laudable conversation of the penitent did seem to deserve so great a favour ; or if by such indulgence they thought requisite to encourage weaker christians in times of persecution to suffer for the faith. hence appears that whatsoever beyond this we read in the catholic writers , as thouching the remission of any pane due to sin in the judgment of god , or after death in purgatory , or touching certain clauses in the bulls of some popes ; or touching the churches treasure consisting of the merit of christ alone , as some , or of the merits of saints joyned to those of christ , as others conceive , &c. not any of these are necessary points of catholic faith. thus in effect the catholic church requires no more to be assented to , but what is taught and practised by every congregation of christians upon earth . all sects , even fanatics and quakers , denounce censures against delinquents . must all those censures alwayes have their full effect ? is no mercy to be extended to humble , contrite penitents ? shall no difference be made between sinners converted , and those that are remorsless ? this is contrary to humane nature and the practise of all mankind . therefore surely you would not forsake the catholic church for allowing that which all christians esteem necessary . §. 83. prot. if this were all that the roman church teaches concerning indulgences , they are much to blame who condemn her . but the general practise therein contradicts you . do we not see the virtue of indulgences extended to the other world ? do we not see in the tenor of promulgated plenary indulgences all sinners promised remission , and heaven too for a few prayers recited , for visiting a certain number of churches , or disbursing a small sum ▪ of money ? quid ergo verba audio , cum fact a videam ? cath. all that you alledg being confessed , what prejudice can that bring to you or me ? i told you that several school-men in their speculations do attribute more to indulgences then the church gives them warrant for ? and this they themselves acknowledg . so it fares in all religions , that opinions do in number far exceed articles of faith. no wonder therefore if popes do enlarge their graces according to the measure of opinions , not condemned . and who justly blame them , since they themselves reap no profit by all the alms given ? indeed in the former ages great scandal was given by the avarice of such as published indulgences , and collected the charitable alms of devout people . of which scanda● ●●e church taking notice , utterly abolished that office , and commanded bishops in such occasions to assume from among the canons of their respective churches to be collectors of alms , withal strictly forbidding them to accept any reward at all for their labour . §. 84. matters standing thus , what harm flows to any by indulgences so published ? though perhaps not one in a hundred gains the full vertue of such indulgences , yet something they do certainly gain ; some reward they will reap from performing the good actions enjoyned , which probably would otherwise never have been done by many . however , they loose nothing at all . they are taught , not to expect remission of unrepented sins , or to gain heaven by an indulgence : for none are capable of the fruit thereof , but such as have with contrition confessed their sins ▪ and received absolution , and consequently are in the state of grace , but yet remain obnoxious to temporal punishments , from which an indulgence , duely made use of , doth free them . §. 85. one incommodity indeed may justly be apprehended by a too profuse and frequent concession of indulgences , which is the enervating of ecclesiastical discipline : to prevent which the church ( as i said in the entrance into this point ) expresly and earnestly admonishes that the granting of them may be done with great moderation according to the antient and approved custom of the church . now if all this care will not yet satisfy you , however surely you will have no excuse for leaving the church upon this account , because though there be never so many mistakes or abuses in the ordinary teach of private doctors , and common practice about indulgences , you will not need to concern your self in any of them ; since if you think fit , you may keep your money in your purse , perform your devotions in your private closet , endeavour to fulfil all canonical penances which have been , or , by the utmost rigor of ecclesiastical discipline , ought to have been imposed on you for all your sins , and so freely abstain all your life time from making use of an indulgence , prot. enough hath been said on this subject : proceed , if you think fit , to the next . 10. of iustification , and merit of good works . §. 86. cath. after the discoursing of confession , penance , and indulgence it will be seasonable and proper to treat of the fruit arising from , or by occasion of them , which is the merit of good works and iustification . there is scarce any point of catholic doctrine from which protestants have sought greater advantage to multiply foolish books and senceless sermons , then this touching iustification : and oft it falls out that their zealous invectives against the church are then most loudand bitter , when explaining themselves , they presently agree with the churches sense . of this , as soon as i have sincerely acquainted you with our catholic doctrine , i am content you should be the judg. §. 87. first then , it is acknowledged that the church teaches , that men are justified ( indeed ) by the imputation of christs iustice , and by remission of their sins ; but not by these only , so as to exclude grace and charity shed abroad in their hearts by the holy ghost : that is in effect , that god does not justify nor remit sins to persons while they persist in their sins and in a hatred of him . again the church , making use of the ordinary expression of the holy fathers , teaches , that a person justified truly merits eternal life by his good works . now this word merit ( the word , i say , but not the true sense of it when they will permit us to explain it ) is very offensive to protestants . but you having obliged your self to avoid partiality , will judg of the churches sense by what she further adds for explication of this point ; and for clearing her self from the imputation of encouraging men to glorify themselves , and to trust in their own abilities for purchasing remission of sins and salvation . §. 97. thus then she further teaches , it is necessary to believe that sins neither are , nor ever have been remitted , but by divine mercy freely extended to us , for ( the merits of ) iesus christ. again , we are said to be justified freely because not any of those things which precede our iustification , whether faith or works , can merit that grace . in the third place , eternal life ought to be proposed to the children of god , both as a free grace mercifully promised to them through iesus christ ; and also as as a recompence which is faithfully rendred to their good works and merits , by vertue of that promise . fourthly although in holy scriptures so much is attributed to good works , that iesus christ himself promises that a cup of cold water given to the poor shall not fail of a reward , and that the apostle testifies that our light and momentary tribulation worketh fur us a far more exceeding , eternal weight of glory ; yet god forbid that a christian should either trust or glory in himself , and not in the lord , whose goodness towards all men is so great that he is pleased , that the free gifts bestowed by him on them should be their merits . i will add only one passage more , out of a great heap , to the like effect . we , who of our selves , as of our selves , can do nothing , by our lords cooperation , who gives us strength , can do all things : thus man hath nothing in himself for which he can glory , but all our glorying is in christ , in whom we live , in whom we merit , in whom we satisfy , bringing forth fruits , worthy of repentance , which fruits take their vertue from him , are offered to the father by him , and accepted of the father for him . thus are we instructed by the church in the council of trent and moreover in the canon of the holy mass we are taught thus to pray . mercifully vouchsafe , o god , to admit us into the society of thy apostles and martyrs , not weighing our merits , but pardoning our offences through iesus christ. §. 89. can you now say , sir , that the roman church teacheth her children to glorifie themselves , and to rely upon their own merits , or indeed to esteem their merits to be their own ? she must cancel the whole scripture if she would affirm that without a good life and holiness we may see god : or if she would affirm that god has not obliged himself by a world of promises to reward our good works with happiness infinitely exceeding the value of them . but withal to preserve in our hearts that most essential virtue of our christian professor , humility , she further instructs us , that our works as merits , are the pure free gifts of god and effects of his meer grace , which alone affords them all their value : that they are accepted and rewarded by god , only for the merits of iesus christ. yea further , that our natural corruption still remaining , and mingling it self in our best actions , we can have no assurance that they are indeed such as god has promised to reward : and however , that though we now stand , yet we have no assurance that we shall not fall . in a word the whole substance of her doctrine touching the present subject directs us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling : and when we have done all we can , to acknowledg our selves unprofitable servants , having only done our duty ( if we have indeed done that ) and consequently if god do reward us , it is to be ascribed to his own free goodness and grace , in which alone we place our trust , and not at all in our own imperfect merits . §. 90. and now , sir , judg whether the roman church teaching these doctrines can with any shew be accused or suspected to have a design to nourish spiritual pride in her children ; and whether the first contrivers of schism had reason to publish to the world , as the principal ground of their rupture , this article of iustification and good works ; and in opposition to her , to make the people believe that the faith by which they are to be justified must be a strong resolute fancy , of their election , and an assurance of their salvation ; that a holy life has no influence therein ; yea that good works do rather harm then good ; and lastly , that this monstrous kind of new invented faith once had , can never be lost again , nor their right to heaven prejudiced by never so many , or never so heynous crimes . among them there is no working our salvation with fear and trembling . assurance of salvation in them annihilates the great christian vertue of hope . this in the midst of a world of sins they will be assured of salvation , to which assurance catholics dare not pretend in the midst of all their mortifications , humiliations , and assiduous devotions . since therefore , sir. you are so afraid of pride , as indeed we have all reason to be , be you the iudg which of these parties affords you best means to avoid it , and so , best deserves your choice . prot. a short consideration will serve the turn for that purpose , be pleased to proceed . 11. of invocation of saints . §. 91. the next point censured by you is the churches doctrine touching invocation of saints : thus expressed in the council of trent , it is good and profitable to call upon the saints , and to have recourse to their prayers , aid and assistance , whereby to obtain from god many benefits by the merits of his son iesus christ , who is our redeemer and saviour . in this point i shall briefly offer to you these considerations ; 1. that it is a general tradition of gods church from the begining , and not contradicted by sober protestants , that glorified saints do incessantly pray for the militant church on earth . 2. it is unquestionable that we may desire to receive benefit in particular by such their prayers . 3. that it contradicts all reason and modesty in our adversaries to charge the addressing our petitions to them for that purpose with the horrible crime of idolatry , since we do no otherwise beg the intercession of saints , then we do that of our sinful brethren alive , acknowledging god alone to be the author and fountain of all good . §. 92. hence it follows that the worst title that malice it self can with any shew of reason affix to this our practice is , that it may be esteemed superfluous , in case it can be demonstrated , that saints at such a distance cannot hear nor know our requests in particular . yet neither would this enervate the churches doctrine or practice ; which by eminent divines is proved to be laudable and profitable , though they did not always hear us : neither indeed has the church any where determined her belief , that they do so . but lastly , if it be the church her self , and not some private catholic writers , that you would question about this subject ; observe , that in her public liturgy and mass , celebrated on all the feasts of saints , she continually addresses her petitions directly to god alone , desiring him to grant us such special blessings by the intercession of such and such saints . now it cannot be doubted but that charity and mutual assistance among fellow members of the same body is very acceptable to god whensoever and wheresoever performed . we are taught to beleive a communion of saints : we doubt not of their charity to us : our communion therefore with them must be to testify our joy for their happiness , and our assurance that their intercessions for us are more prevalent with god , then the prayers of our living imperfect brethren : therefore since we may and ought , on occasions to beg these , and to desire god to hear them for our good , much rather surely ought we to do the same with regard to the glorified saints . i leave it therefore to your conscience whether you can judg that a separation from gods church on this quarrel can be justified . prot. at least i shall never hereafter impute idolatry to her for this practice . 12. of veneration of images and relics of saints . §. 93. cath. the next point of catholic doctrine , and which has an affinity with the last , regards the veneration due to holy images and relics , which is equally censured by protestants . it is thus expressed in the confession of faith set down by pope pius the fourth . i do most firmly assert that the images of christ , of the virgin-mother of god , as likewise of other saints are to be had and retained , and due honour and veneration to be given to them , and also to their relics . §. 94. now to justify the use which catholics make of images , the veneration due to them , and that such veneration is most unjustly and calumniously by some protestants interpreted to be idolatry will be no hard task to perform . for common reason and the experience of all mankind instruct us , that men do naturally desire and delight to think or talk oft on such things past , or persons absent from whom they have received some signal benefit , and much more if they expect an addition of like benefits . but besides this , if the very thinking or speaking of them with affection be it self a duty advantagious to us , and conducing to our happiness , we will thank any person , and we will think it reasonable to furnish our selves with such expedients as are proper to put us oft in mind of them : which we therefore regard in a far other manner , then we do such things as represent to us only indifferent objects . is not this , sir , suitable to reason ? prot. truly it seems so to me . cath. then i desire you to examine your self , and tell me , if whilst your thoughts are employed on vain , or perhaps sinful objects , one should on a sudden hold before your eyes a crucifix containing the history of our saviors passion , would not the fight thereof recal your mind to the contemplation of an object more noble , more heavenly , to mediate on which would be very beneficial to you . prot. no doubt it would . cath. again , may not one glance of your eye thereon so refresh your memory as in a moment to make you call to mind as much of the story , as perhaps the reading of a long chapter in the gospel would do ? prot. that may be granted . §. 94. cath. may it not likewise have the same effect , and be yet more helpful to ignorant persons who cannot read , and have weak memories ? prot. it may doubtless . §. 95. cath. and are not such representations , beside refreshing the memory , proper also to raise in your mind holy affections of love and gratitude to our saviour ? prot. it is confessed : but what is all this to worshiping or adoring a crucifix or other image ? cath. sir , i desire you , since these terms of adoring and worshiping in our common english are usually made to import the supreme honour due to god alone , that you would , not ( in imitation of your libelling controvertists , whose only aym is , by any arts to render our religion odious to unwary readers ) make use of them in this argument : but take the churches own expression , and call the respect we bear to sacred images and relics , honour , reverence or veneration . prot. i am content . §. 97. cath. then , sir , give me leave to ask you , whether it is not another kind of special regard which we have to sacred and heavenly objects , from that we bear to profane ? as for example , can you think fit to do all the same things in a church , which you would have no scruple to do in your house , or in an unclean place ? prot. no doubt , a difference is to be made . cath. and would you not judg that person injurious to our saviour , or to his blessed mother , who should deface , spit upon , or defile the pictures of either of them ? and on the other side , whether seeing another reverently kissing , either of them , you would not collect thereby that he bore respect to the glorious persons represented ? prot. let all this be granted . cath. and would you call such a reverent behavior of the latter person , idolatry ; especially when he ( with the church ) professes that he acknowledges no kind of virtue or divinity in them for which they should be honoured , or that any thing is to be beg'd of them , or any trust to be put in them : which acknowledgment the church her self requires from him ? prot. i confess , i see there no marks of idolatry : but on the contrary , an express renouncing of it . §. 98. cath , well , sir ; since then sacred things are otherwise to be regarded , then common and profane ; and again , since our saviour and his saints may receive testimonies of our love and duty , as likewise of hatred and scorn , by our very outward behaviour shewed to their representations ; moreover since it is that by representations we are put in mind of persons and things highly conducing to our happiness , and which we cannot without our great prejudice neglect or forget ; and lastly , since by them the ignorant also may very commodiously be instructed , and likewise good affections may by them be raised in all our minds ; would you rather forsake the communion of the church , then , with her , acknowledg , that due honour and veneration is to be exhibited to them ? prot. i have no scruple to allow thus much . cath. then surely you will have less scruple to allow the same veneration to the very bodies , members , or other relicks of saints . prot. be it acknowledged : and proceed . 13. of prayer for the dead , and purgatory . §. 99. cath. in the next place we will consider what you object against the churches doctrine touching prayer for the dead , which implyes a state in them alterable to the better by our prayers , alms , &c. for them : which state is by the church , called purgatory . now it seems to me a wonderful thing that you should quarrel with gods church , so as to think communion with her unlawful , because she is charitable and compassionate to her fellow-members , as she believes , standing in great need of her assistance . §. 100. prot. that which we principally reprehend in this practice is , that your church , without any warrant from gods word , will impose this burthen on us . cath. if you had not dismembred that book of scripture which the church once put into your hands , you would have found this duty of prayer and offering sacrifice for the faithful departed expresly commended and practised , even by the iewish synagogue long before our saviour came into this world . so that your argument is like that of your patriarck luther , who could not find in scripture justification by works after he had torn the epistle of st. iames out of his book . §. 101. notwithstanding even in your scripture you find that , no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of god. neither have you any the least ground to believe that christians full of many unrepented imperfections are perfectly cleansed by dying : therefore unless after death there be a place where they may be purified , you most cruelly thrust them , without hope of redemption , into hell. and this you do in contradiction to the greatest cloud of witnesses that , i think , ever gave testimony to any divine uerity . for besides a world of passages sprinkled in the works of the holy fathers among whom some have written books on purpose to enforce this charitable duty towards the dead , there never was any church since christ besides yours , which in their publick liturgies did not employ their devotions and sacrifices for the comfort and assistance of their dead brethern : yea even your english liturgy is accused by presbiterians and fanatics of the same criminal charity . §. 102. and as for the place it self , in which we believe them to be detained , stiled by the church , purgatory ; what a deal of unnecessary trouble do your controvertists give themselves in disputing against the fire of purgatory , and touching the nature , intention and duration of the pains suffered there : none of which are defined or mentioned in the churches decision ? §. 103. your partiality is likewise very unreasonable in this matter . for calvin is by you generally esteemed a patriark of great authority among all your sects ; who notwithstanding assigns to the souls of the faithful after death a certain place out of heaven : in which they expect ( saith he ) the fruition of glory promised them , so that all things remain in suspence until the coming of our saviour to iudgment . now this so tedious suspension and anxious expectation of an object vehemently desired , must needs be more grievous then a short suffering in purgatory , where probably such a delayed expectation makes the principal torment , and where perhaps the sufferings of many , less imperfect souls , may be less tormenting than some pains suffered in this life . yet because calvin will not call this his fancied place , purgatory , he is orthodox , and the church only erroneous . he is orthodox , teaching in a manner , the very same doctrine taught by the church , and yet men can have the conscience to forsake the church that they may learn her doctrine abroad in a shismatioal congregation . prot. such partiality truly i cannot approve . cath. these are the catholic doctrines mentioned by you as evidently contradicting scripture , and invented to promote ambition and avarice in the catholic clergy . and besides these , other points of controversie there are , which though not charged with such an imputation , yet are esteemed by you of moment , sufficient to drive you out of gods church . do you think good that we should take notice of these also ? prot. yes . 14. of celibacy of priests . §. 104. cath. the first then that i will mention shall be the churches ordinance touching celibacy of priests . it is confessed by us that this is only an ecclesiastical constitution : it is also confessed by the most eminent among you , that if your clergy would submit to such a constitution , ecclesiastical affairs would be better ordered . if they say , that all men have not the gift of continence ; they may be told , that in case any one of them wants this gift , why does he intrude himself into the office of a spiritual pastor ? who compels him thereto ? yet withall the same person in his younger days , had the gift of continence , whilst he enjoyned a subsistence by a fellowship in the university ; does then his approaching to the altar expel that gift ? or does ordination make a wife necessary in these latter days only , whereas never any former christian church , not in greece it self , would permit any person , after made a priest , to marry ? even those very councils forbad this , which permitted marryed men to receive priesthood . if therefore there be among them a want of this gift of continence , it is their own fault : generally speaking , they want it , because they are unwilling to enjoy it , and will not make use of prayer , reading , abstinence , solitude , and other means proper to continue it . and will you , sir , leave gods church , because those whom god hath appointed to take care of your soul , have not , neither desire to have wives ? prot. go on to the next point . 15. of abstinence from flesh enjoyned in fasting . §. 105. cath. as not in the former constitution , so neither in this by which the church commands abstinence from flesh on days of fasting , can you have any pretention to impute to our church , as we may to yours , that she favors carnal affections ? in the former , her clergy imposed on themselves alone the burden of renouncing all , even otherwise lawful , satisfactions to the flesh : and for this you , who are nothing concern'd , will be angry , and forsake a church because mortification is practiced by the pastors in it . in this latter ordinance she indeed , i mean her clergy , restrain in some measure the appetites of the layty , but they do not in the mean time favour themselves . if it were not good for our souls to abate the intemperance of our bodies , ecclesiastics would not afflict themselves by practising it : and if it be good , laicks are too blame to find fault with it . §. 106. however , i cannot judge you so unreasonable as to joyn with your hot-headed controvertists and preachers , who for these two ordinances sake impute to our church the teaching of the doctrine of devils , in forbiding to marry , and commanding to abstain from meats — since it is manifest that these heretics , of whom saint paul prophesied , and which appeared shortly after in the church , uttterly condemned marriage in all , as an abomination in it self : and taught that all creatures having life are composed of particles of the evil deity , and therefore to be had in execration . now , sir , can you observe any affinity between these doctrines , and those of the catholic church , teaching that marriage is honourable in all , who are called to it ; but yet that virginity especially in persons consecrated to god , is better : and again , that all gods creatures are good , and to be received with thanksgiving , but yet on some few days when we are for the good of our souls to subdue our carnal lusts , fermenting in our bodies , it is expedient to abstain from some more nourishing meats , though otherwise in themselves lawful and good ? prot. i am sufficiently perswaded saint paul never intended you in that prophesie . and now , sir , it will not be necessary you should trouble your self about any other points debated among us : none of which ( as neither indeed the two last ) being of such moment , as to oblige any one to break from any churches communion at all : since all the doubts concerning them consist in this , whether a single christian may safely judg himself wiser and holyer then the church . cath. god almighty establish in your heart a love of his truth and peace . and now for a farewel , give me leave to add a few considerations touching the general argument of both our discourses . prot. i give it willingly . §. 107. cath. then , sir , you may remember how at our last meeting i told you that it was the common artifice of your controvertists , when they are charged with schism , to delay the examination of that most important point , till the greek calends , that is , till all other particular controversies be debated to their satisfaction , which will never be . but now i must alter the expression , and tell you , it is not so much a voluntary artifice , as pure necessity that put them , and you , upon that unreasonable method . §. 108. when a catholic is examined why he is so , an answer is readily suggested to him , that it concerns the safety of his soul to be a member of that church which from his creed he learns to be holy and catholic : and that the roman is such , having all the marks by which the only true church is characterized in scripture . he answers , directly to the question , without comparing particular tenents of his church with those of other divided congregations , which requires much study and learning beyond the ability of ordinary catholics : whereas the most simple are unquestionably perswaded of the authority ▪ of their church and that keeps them safe in it , against all the captious objections of sectaries endeavouring to shake their faith in particular doctrines , the justifying of which they leave to their teachers and governors . §. 109. but a protestant being examined , why ( for example ) he is member of the church of england , it never enters into his thoughts to justify his church by the marks of unity , antiquity , succession , universality , &c. nor does he pretend that his church has any authority from christ to oblige him to believe her rather then any fanatic congregations ; for she her self will not suffer him to say so . what does he then ? truly he leaves his church in a desperately forlorn condition ; he never thinks of her , though she be the only subject of the question , but diverts his fancy to spy out faults and errors elsewhere , comforting himself with a perswasion that he has found them ; though perhaps he be not able to penetrate into , or truly state one point of controversie . and this illogical method , sir , you have observed in this discourse : and as illogical as it is , i am confident you cannot mend it : for doubtless if you could have furnished your self out of your anti-catholick writers , or if your self could invent any specious arguments to recommend to any mans liking , or esteem the church of which you profess your self a member , you would not have neglected the doing it ; you would not have been quite silent in the only matter which you were concerned to prove . now , sir , i am not desirous to take advantage against you from your past method of proceeding . take your own time to think better of it , and if it be your pleasure that we may have a third meeting , i shall willingly expect a direct answer to my question , why are you still a protestant ? prot. i will through gods grace seriously think on this : and i will either provide a satisfactory answer , as you require , or give you leave to conclude , that my eyes are opened to see the true catholic church , of which i will live and dye a faithful member . §. 110. cath. gods holy spirit direct you . and be pleased to take this admonition with you : that unless you can find out a way to demonstrate the protestant church , in whose communion you have hitherto lived , to be a true member incorporated into that catholic church , which ( unless the creed be false ) had a being before protestancy was heard of , and so continues the same , your soul is in evident danger , unless you forsake her : it will necessarily follow also ( except such a demonstration can be produced ) that ; without further examination all those special doctrines , which you have hitherto triumphed in , as christian verities , are certainly illusions and errours , because not professed in the same catholic church , which alone is the pillar and ground of truth , and whose teaching whosoever will not hear ( and believe ) is , by our saviours sentence , to be esteemed as a heathen and publican . §. 111. and indeed , to deal plainly with you , it was more then you could justly challenge in the present occasion , that i should have the compliance so far , as to attend unto the charges and accusations laid by you against the special doctrins of the catholic church : for such accusations could have no place in an answer to be made to the question proposed in the beginning . indeed if i had now ( as may be done another time ) precisely imputed heresie to you , it might have been proper for you to justifie your particular tenents , and also to recrimimnate . but it was only the crime of schism that i laid to the charge of protestant churches , and therefore asked you the question , why are you a protestant ? now to this question , thus intended , no answer can be proper but such an one by which you shall endeavour to demonstrate that the protestant church , in whose communion you live , is not schismatical , that it is not divided from the catholic church which never did nor ever shall fail , and that it has all the marks which declare a church to be catholic . this you have not done : and no wonder , since you can find no help for such a purpose from any of your writers . and yet till that can be done , all other disputes are to no purpose , neither can catholics be obliged to engage themselves in them : or if they do so , it is only to shew you that , being evidently and confessedly schismatics , you are also heretics . §. 112. now , sir , since i am assured you will find it utterly impossible for you , this way , to excuse any of your lately erected churches from the guilt of schism ; if still notwithstanding you will resolve to persist divided from that catholic church , which has been deserted by them all , my fear is that for the stupifying of your conscience you will think it necessary to make use of that , lately so cryed up , socinian opiat , i mean , that desperate principle , that schism is one of those theological scar-crows , with which those who hold a party in religion use to fright away such as making onquiry into it , are ready to relinquish and oppose it , if it either appear erroneous , or suspicious , whereas whosoever shall , with a true and unpretended conscience , perswade himself , or but suspect , that the church requires a profession of false doctrins , or conformity to ▪ unlawful practises , [ and of this each particular person must be the iudge ] in s●ch a case he not only may , but is , obliged to separate from the church : and by such separation not he , but the church , is guilty of schism . now , sir , is not this prinoiple a preservative of soveraign virtue against all remorse of conscience for schism or heresie ? prot. but what would you have a man so perswaded , or so suspecting errours and misdemeanors to be in the church , to do ? cath. i readily enough grant , that in such a case the man must neither profess , nor do any thing against his present conscience : and consequently , i do not say , he must separate , but if the church for his obstinate disobedience shall cast him out , he must be patient . but the truth is , his case is deplorable , for every way he is exposed to extreamest danger . if he conforms against conscience , he sins mortally by damnable hypocrisie . if he refuses to conform , that is , to submit his private perswasion , or suspicion , to the teaching of the church [ i mean , the catholic church ] his sin is yet more heynous , being a rebellious disobedience to the highest and most divinely established authority upon earth , from the guilt of which disobedience no dictates of consoience , how unpretended soever , can acquit him . otherwise none but false hypocrites and subtle pretenders of conscience can be guilty either of schism or heresie : yea , the prouder menace , the more self-conceited of their own judgments , and more addicted to entertain suspition and contempt of their superiors , the more innocent they shall be . so that a full perswasion , or it seems , but suspition that any heretical doctrines are orthodox , will excuse all heretics , even the most blasphemous , from all guilt and danger , and moreover , at the end of the account the governours and lawful teachers appointed by god in his church , in case the excommunicate such orthodox hereticks , must alone be esteemed heretics and schismatics , only for teaching truth and doing their duty . §. 114. indeed , if he who called schism a theological scar-crow had intended to apply that expression to single divided churches , whose birth has perhaps been within mans memory , and particularly to the church of england ( some fundamental doctrines whereof , to my knowledge , he did not assent to , and whose ecclesiastical government he did not approve ) his assertion may be justified to be grounded on reason . for who can tell how a seperation from any of them can be called schism ; or tenents contradicting their heresies ? they all mutually favour one another with the title of pure reformed and sufficiently orthodox churches : so that in which soever among them any one shall live , and from which soever of them any one shall think fit to depart , as liking another better , this , according to their common grounds , must be accounted a matter in a manner , indifferent , and however there is in it no danger of incurring the guilt of schism , so it be done with an unpretended conscience . it seems therefore to me an act unjust and unsuitable to the grounds of pure reformation in some late prelatical writers , who charge with the crime of schism their tender conscienced orthodox brethren for deserting their communion : as it was anciently in the donatists , those arch-contrivers of schisms for doing the same to the primianists , maximianists and rogatists , subdivided sects , spawned from them . it is plain therefore that among all reformed congregations , schism is a meer scar-crow , and the like may be said of heresie : and the reason is , because both heresie and schism must include an opposition to that church only which can justly challenge an authority to determin what doctrins are true and necessary to be believed by all christians , and to oblige all under penalty of anathema's to joyn in her communion : which authority only belongs to the catholic church , and which is not so much as pretended to by any reformed congregations . §. 115. hence it necessarily follows , that the entertaining a perswasion that the catholic church ( to which god hath made a promise that he will lead her into all truth ) is guilty of errours , can proceed only from an excess of spiritual pride : but it is moreover 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an obstruction of reason , upon a meer suspicion of such errors , to esteem one's self obliged to separate from her communion . but so pestilent is the nature of spiritual sins , that though all men condemn them , and most men are deeply stained with them , yet not any one can see them in himself . where shall we find an usurping oppressor acknowledge himself covetous ? or an ambitious man , proud ? so never did any schismatic say , or think himself such . he acknowledges that he separates from the church , and boasts of it , yet he will not endure to be esteemed a schismatic , as if sinlurked only in the greek expression . to conclude , unless you will impute to all the antient councils and holy fathers of gods church not only the utmost extremity of ignorance and folly , but likewise a base partial interessedness , and most execrable tyranny in denouncing anathemas against dissenters and separatists , you will judge separation from catholic communion to be no vain theological scar-crow . such a sleight opinion of the harmlesness of schism was not first branched in this age. saint augustine will inform us , that in his days , there were some who said ; we thought it made no matter where ( that is , in what communion ) we preserved the faith of christ : but ( saith he ) thanks be given to our lord , who hath gathered us from separation , and hath made manifest to us , that this is a thing pleasing to god , who is one , to be served in unity . such horror had those great lights of the church of the crime of schism , that according to their judgment , even martyrdom it self cannot cure the deadly poyson of it : and , that the martyrdom to which we expose our selves by hindring schism in the church , is no less glorious , then that which is suffered for refusing to sacrifice to idols : that there cannot possibly be made any reformation of such importance as the mischief of schism is pernicious : and in a word , that it cannot possibly be , that any one should have a just cause to● separate from catholic communion . more to this purpose you may find in the second section of the collection of testimonies out of the holy fathers at the end of our former discourse . prot. i well remember them : therefore , if you please , here we may make an end . §. 116. cath. farewel , sir , and pardon the frequent urging of this most necessary admonition . if i thought you would require it , i could very easily have concluded this discourse , as i did the former , with a collection of testimonies from the holy fathers to justifie the churches doctrines through all the points here mentioned . but such a collection having been the only subject of many great volumns published by catholic doctors , it will be sufficient to refer you to them . i will only desire you to take notice in perusing them , first , that never any such book has been written by any protestant . and next , that such collections have been made by catholics to shew that their whole religion , came by descent from the antient fathers : whereas protestants only upon a particular occasion , select some obscure , or ambiguous passages from their writings , with a purpose to cast a mist besore the eyes of unwary readers that they may so elude the force of those testimonies far exceeding in number , and more perspicuously evident , produced by catholics . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a34972-e1290 1 tim. 3. 15 psal. 122. 3. matt. 5. 14. isa. 54. mat. 18. 17. calvin . instit. lib. 4. cap. 1. calvin . epi. ad melanct. prejugez . con . les calvinists san. relation pag. 233. roses his view of religion . pag. 4768. humsr. in iesuiti●mi part . 2. 〈◊〉 . 5. mig . leb . cent. 6. p. 289. lb. c. 10. p. 748. cari●● . chron. lib. 4. 〈◊〉 . onan● . epitome cent . 6. parker antih . b●it . c. 17. a●ch . 〈◊〉 . pro 〈◊〉 . dom. p. 33. osiand . epist. p. 290. whitak . cont . dur. l. 5. §. 26. humfr. ad . rat . 5. godwin in conv. brit. c. 4. magdeb. cent. 6. c. 10. castal . in praefat. bibli●r . lat. philip nicolai de regno christi . c. 1. p. 53. au● . epist. 165. calvin . in●stit . l. 4. c. 2. notes for div a34972-e16900 §. 42. august . in psalm . 30. conc. 2● . aug. in ps. 147. aug. in psal. 56. august . in epist. ioan . 2. august . cont . faust. l. 13. c. 13. aug. in psal. 85. aug. de baptis . cont . don. l. 1. c. 10 aug. in ps. 1. 30. pacian epist 2. ad sympron . dionys. alex . ap . euseb . l. 6. aug. ser. 22. de diversis . aug. in i sal . 42. it● . l. 4. c. 62. aug. in psal. 48 : aug. de vera rel g. aug. epist. 48. aug. cont . epist. fundam . c. 3. fulgent . de ●ide ad pet. cap. 39. aug. retract l. 1. id de utilitate . aug. de unitate eccl. c. 19. aug. in psal. 41. aug. de . baptismo cont . donat . l. 2. aug. cont . ●reseon . 〈◊〉 . 33. aug. de quantit . animae . c. 7. aug. cont . iulian. l. ● . c. 5. hilar. l. 1. tertull. de praescrips . c. 18. aug. epist. 118. aug. de haeres . vincent . lirin . comon . c. 38. notes for div a34972-e18420 s●ogli , ●el chr. nau●r . 1 kin. 12. mat. 5. 13. 14. conc. trid. sess. 4. io. 16. 13. mat. 16. 18. bulla pii● p. 4. conc. f●r . perron in ambass . epist. margaretae gubernatricis ad archiepiscopum camerac . & responsis ejusd . confess . de foy : art. 36. catech. dimanch . 53. ib. 52. ibid. epist. a● cardin. perron . council . trid. sess. 13. can . 6. bull. pii . p. iv. concil . trid. sess. 22. c. 1. hebr. 9. 26. ib. 28. ib. 12. ioh. 22. 23. mat. 18. 18. iam. 5. 16. concil . trid. sess. 14. can. 13. 14. concil . tride● sess. 2● . suarez . vasquez . concil . trid. sess. 21. de reform . c. 9. ibid : sess. 25. council . trid. sess. 6. can . 11. ib. can , 34 , ib. c. 9. ib. c. 8. ib. c. 16. ibid. ib. sess. 14. cap. 8. can. miss . ●uth . concil . trid. sess. 25. e●ius . bull. pii . p. iv. council . trid. sess. 25. 2 m●cchab . 12. 43 , 44. calvin . insti . lib. 3. c. 25. §. c. 1. tim. 4. 1. 1 tim. 3. 15. mat. 18. 17. h●le's discourse of schism . epi● a● . diut . aug. epist . 48 dionys. alex. ap . euseb. l. 6 pacian . epist. 2. iren. l. 4. c. 62. aug. epist , 48. whether parish congregations be true christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by richard baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, mr. baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, a theological dialogue, or, catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by richard baxter. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. 1684 approx. 237 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 71 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2006-06 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a27068 wing b1452 estc r16512 12545784 ocm 12545784 63048 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a27068) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 63048) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 305:13) whether parish congregations be true christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by richard baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, mr. baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, a theological dialogue, or, catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by richard baxter. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. 44, 32 p. printed for thomas parkhurst ..., london : 1684. "a short answer to the chief objections in a book entituled a theological dialogue, &c." has separate paging. part 2, page 32 has faded print in the filmed copy. part 2, pages 1-32 photographed from the yale university library copy and inserted at the end. reproduction of original in bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng baxter, richard, 1615-1691. -treatise of episcopacy. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. -mr. baxter's judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies. chauncy, isaac, 1632-1712. -theological dialogue. brownists. protestantism. 2005-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-03 john latta sampled and proofread 2006-03 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion whet●er parish c●●gregations be true christian churches , ●●d the capable consenting incumbents , be truly their pastors , or bishops over their flocks . 〈◊〉 whether the old protestants , conformists , and noncon●●rmists , or the brownists , were in the right herein . and how 〈…〉 our present case is the same . 〈◊〉 by richard baxter , as an explication of some passages in his for●●● writings , especially , his treatise of episcopacy , misunderstood and misapplied by some ; and answering the strongest objections of some of them , especially a book called , r. baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies , as by law required . and another called , a theological dialogue . catholick communion once more defended , upon ●●ns necessitating importunity . by richard baxter london : 〈◊〉 in parkhurst , at the bible and three 〈◊〉 , near mercers chappel . 1684. communion with parish churches vindicated , in answer to a book entituled , the judgment of mr. baxter , against communicating , &c. mistaking my writings . a church is not formally , quid physi●um , but quid morale politicum relativum , a political relative being . ii. the same name signifieth both the genus and species , that are divers by use . iii. the same is true of the name [ pastor . ] iv. diocesan churches are of three sorts . 1. such as have at present but one fixed assembly , but design to gather more hereafter : such , dr. hammond thought they were in scripture times . 2. such as have one diocesan governour , or superintendent over many inferior churches , and their pastors . 3. such as have one only bishop or pastor , having no other true pastor , elder , church-ruler , or presbyter of christs institution under him ; but chappels which have no such ruler or pastor . v. the first sort of diocesans we have now nothing to do with . the second sort is controverible , some holding it sinful , some lawful , and some ( and very many ) to be of divine institution , as successors of the apostles , not in the extraordinaries , but in the ordinary parts of their office : christ having made an imparity ( or a superiority of some over others ) they think that to say without proof , that he changed that order in one age , is 1. to charge him with mutability and levity . 2. and to diminish from his law ( which hath a curse . ) the third sort of diocesans , is either 1. of a diocess ( like a great parish with chappels ) so small that one pastor may possibly oversee it . ( this is tollerable , when more cannot be had ; and when they can , it hurts only ●he well-being of the church ) : or 2. it is of a diocess so great as that one man cannot do what is essential to a pastor , and so it is undone : this nullifieth that species of churches which is of christs institution . vi. a particular church of christs institution of the lowest political order , is , [ a competent number of neighbour-christians , who by christs appointment , and their own exprest consent , are associated with one or more past●● for the right worshipping of god in publick , and the edification of the members , by the exercise of the said pastoral office , and their mutual duties to god , to their pastors , and each others , for the welfare of the society , and the pleasing and glorifying of god. ] vii . the pastoral office as over this first or lowest church , and as it is in unfixed ministers , related yet to no one church more than another , differeth but as the subject matter ( or object ) of their charge doth differ , and not in the fundamental power or order . viii . this pastoral office is essentially ministerial to christ as the prophet , priest , and king of his church . 1. a power to teach . 2. to lead in worship . 3. to guide by the keys of reception , admonition , exclusion and restoration . ix . it is not inconsistent with this pastoral office to be governed by superiors , whether magistrates , or ecclesiasticks ( as others were by apostles , and by timothy , titus , &c. ) therefore every limitation , restraint , rebuke , or punishment , for mal-administration , nullifieth not the office , nor yet allowing an appeal to superiors . x. to hinder a pastor from forcible excluding men from church or sacrament , and allow him only to do it by application of gods word , is agreeable to his office. xi . it is power and obligation to exercise , and not the present actual exercise , that is essential to the office in the fundamental relation : but should the non-exercise be total and stated , it would not make up a church in act ; no more than a mere power to teach , will make a school in act . xii . he that hath the entire power , and statedly exerciseth but one part of it , statedly omitting an essential part , may be in order an empowred minister ; but his society is but a half church : but if it be only an integral part that he omits , it may be a true church , tho faulty ; or if it be an essential part , and not statedly , but only by some present impedition . xiii . the name of church pastor and diocesan , being formally relative in signification , are really divers things , as the fundamentum , relate , correlate , and terminus , are divers . they are therefore considerable . i. as instituted and described by christ . ii. as understood , described and consented to by sound orthodox pastors and people . iii. as described by laws and canons . iv. as esteemed and described by many mistaking bishops , clergy and people , some super-conformists , and some misjudging , that the law saith as they : the word as to these senses is equivocal . xiv . christs institution went before mens corruption ; and is to be held to by all christians , who own him to be the maker and ruler of his own church : and no man hath power to null his institution , nor to warrant 〈◊〉 to make his church another thing . xv. by christs institution every ministerial elder and pastor hath power . 1. to teach the people . 2. to lead them in worship . 3. to receive by baptism , and to communion , or to refuse on just cause ( tho under government ) as aforesaid : ( the whole office i have copiously described in my universal concord , 24. years ago . ) xvi . the parishes that have capable christians and ministers consented to by their sumbmission , are such true churches ; their neighbourhood and christianity making them capable matter . not that a man is of the church , because he is in the parish ( atheists , infidels , sadduces , hereticks and refusers , may dwell there , ( its thought that of 60000. that dwell in one london parish , 10000 communicate not , and so 40000 or 50000 , are not of that church ) but those that are capable consenters , and communicants . xvii . this sort of churches we were in possession of 166● , and till august 24. 1662. and of 9000 ministers , then 2000 only were put out , the other 7000 continuing in . and of those that were put out , some few gathered part of their old flock into private churches , renouncing , and disswading them from the publick : most gathered no such churches , but help their old people as they could , not drawing them from the parish churches , till the time of the kings licences for more open ministry . many led them to the parish churches , and took themselves for fellow pastors , with the publick ministers , and lived in love and communion with them . the people were not by the new law cast out with the ministers . most of the people in the 2000 parishes of the ejected , and almost all in the other 7000 ▪ who before communicated , or were ca●able of it , continuing the parish communion . and so are churches , if they were so before . xviii . the generality of the former protestant bishops , and clergy , took the parish rectors to be true pastors of the parish churche● , as bishop usher proved them : the church of england is confessed to be of this mind , before the wars . it is not certain that arch-bishop laud thought otherwise : if he did , hey●n names but five that joyned with him in his main cause , of whom mountague , if not more , were for the contrary cause in this point . xix . they then took a curate to be a pastor , and to have all that is essential to the presbyters office ; and to be a presbyter and no pastor , is a contradi●tion in the sense of protestants and papists , except what is said for lay-e●ders . in france they call all their parish-pastors , curates ; the word sig●ifieth the curam animarum . xx. no law since 166● . hath changed any essentials of the parish-pastors o●●nce ( and so none hath nulled it ) from what it was in 1640. they that affirm the contrary , must prove it . the law before , subjected parish-pastors to diocesans : it imposed the oath of canonical obedience , and a promise of the same in ordination ; it was the same to the ecclesiastical courts as now . if any pretend to such singular skill in law , as to say that there was no law for the book of ordination , which made the ordained to covenant to obey their ordinaries , nor any law for the canons , i hope he will have more reason than to lay the controversie about separation on his odd conceit , when all the people in england have in the days of the four last soveraigns , been forced to submit to these as legal ; and no such pretender could at any time deliver them . books have been written , and pleas used against submitting to the courts that declared not that they held their authority from the king ; but the judges still over-ruled it against them and they that profest to hold it from the king , did many , if not most , mean but the liberty of publick exercising it , as the ministry is held under him , or the adjunct cogent power , or the circa sacra . xxi . the law enableth the parish-minister to receive into the church by baptism , ( tho under canonical prescripts , which dissenters much dislike ) , and to catechize youth , and certifie their fi●ness for confirmation , before they communicate : it bindeth them to reject all from communion , who are not confirmed , or at least are not ready and desirous of it ; it tells us who is to be taken for ready , those that have learnt the catechism , and solemnly own their baptismal covenant . the pastor hereby hath power to try all the unconfirmed , whether they are thus ready or not . the canon requireth him to deny communion to all that live in any scandalous sin : the law and canon bid him to instruct the congregation , to lead them in publick worship , and in the name of christ to reprove , admonish , comfort , administer the lord supper , visit the sick with instruction and prayers . all which , with the aforesaid power of judging who shall be communicants , is full as much as is essential to a parish-pastor . solemnly to pronounce them excommunicate , beside refusing communion , is not essential . if it were , they have power to do it , after the bishops sentence . if it were essential to do it as ungoverned , or finally , or without appeal , then apostolick , yea and magistrates government would null the pastors office. xxii . the altering some words in ordination , and putting out the name [ pastors ] from most places in the litturgy , where they were applied to parish-ministers , is no change at all of the office , much less of its essence . it takes no power from them , which they had : but it was done by the interest of some men , who thought that presbyters , who swore the three kingdoms against bishops , had taken too much upon them , and in opposition they endeavoured to keep them under , and so would diminish their pretences for parity . but this changeth not the species of the office. and it s known who these men were : and tho some of them are of opinion , that diocesan bishops only may regularly confer ordination , and exercise jurisdiction over the clergy , and that meer presbyter ordination with us is null . 1. these same men had a chief hand in debating and wording the kings declarations october , 1661. concerning ecclesiastical affairs , and therein the king after debates with lords and bishops , distinguisheth the meer pastoral preswasive power , from the episcopal ( which is cogent ) and alloweth the rural deans with the presbyters of his deanry , to exercise the said pastoral perswasive power , and the other pastors also to joyn with the bishops . and the law still calls them rectors : the liturgy yet calls them past●rs ; the word pastors , being a metaphor , they take to be general , bish●ps and priests being with them two orders of pastors . therefore because it doth not distinguish them , they usually leave it out , and put sometime bishops and curates , and sometime bishops , priests and deacons : the common description of a bishop by them , is , that he hath the sole power of presiding and determining in ordination , and jurisdiction , s●ne quo non , oft alledging jeroms , quid facit episcopus , quod non facit presbyter excepta ordinatione . and yet the law still binds them , not to ordain without presbyters imposition of hands with them . and arch-deacons and presbyters , surrogates , &c. excommunicate . and in the ember-week , they are every day to pray by the liturgy . [ so guide and govern the minds of thy servants , the bishops and pastors of thy fl●ck , that they may lay hands suddenly on no man. ] where bishops and pastors cannot be taken for synonyma , whilst they speak of all that lay on hands . and they distinguish not [ pastors and curates ] where they change the words , but [ bishops and curates . ] but nothing more proveth what i say , than that the law yet bindeth all priests to all that is essential to an episcopus gregis , a pastor of a particular church ; see the exhort . in ord. of priests , [ we exhort you in the name of our lord jesus christ , that you have in remembrance , into how high a dignity , and to how weighty an office and charge ye are called ; that is to say , to be messengers , watchmen , and stewards of the l●rd , to teach and to premonish , to feed and provide for the lords family , to seek for christs sheep , that are dispersed abroad , and for his children , who are in the midst of this naughty world , that they may be saved by christ for ever ; have always therefore printed in your remembrance , how great a treasure is committed to your charge , for they are the sheep of christ , which he bought , &c. the church and congregation whom you must serve is his spouse and his body ; and if it shall happen , the same church , or any member thereof to take any hurt or hindrance by reason of your negligence , ye know the greatness of the fault , and the h●rrible punishment that will ensue : wherefore consider with your selves the end of your ministry towards the children of god , towards the spouse and body of christ , and see that you never cease your labour , your care and dilig●nce , till you have done all that lieth in you according to your bounden duty , to bring all such as are or shall be committed to your charge , to that agreement in the fai●h and knowledg of god , and that ripeness and perfectness of age in christ , that there be no place left among you , either for error in religion , or viciousness of life : forasmuch then as your office is both of so great excellency , and of so great difficulty , ye see with how great care and study ye ought to a●ply your selves , as well that ye may shew your selves dutiful and thankful to the lord , who hath placed you in so high a dignity , as also to beware that neither you your selves offend , nor be occasions that others offend . and after their covenant to preach according to the scripture , they promise [ to give faithful diligence , to administer the doctrine , sacraments , and discipline of christ as the lord hath commanded , and as this church and realm hath received the same , according to the commandments of god : so that you may teach the people committed to your care and charge with all diligence to keep and observe the same . here doctrine , sacraments , and discipline , are their office-works : gods commandments are their rule , tho on supposition that this realm hath received them according to his commandments . next they covenant with all faithful diligence to banish all erroneous and strange doctrines contrary to gods word , and to use both publick and private monitions and exhortations , as well to the sick as to the whole , within your cures , as need shall require , and occasion shall be given : and [ to keep quietness , peace and love among all christian people , and especially among them that are or shall be committed to their charge . all this is setled by law , and all ministers subscribe to it : and is not this enough to the essence of a pastors office ? what is the reason ? the next promise is [ reverently to obey their ordinary , and other chief ministers , to whom is committed the charge and government of them , following with a glad mind and will , their godly admonitions , and submitting themselves to their godly judgments . this shews that , 1. it is not a strict divine right that is meant over them ; for all ordinaries , and other chief ministers , pretend not to such right . 2. if others superiority null their office , then none is in office but the king : was di●trep●es no minister , because john threatned him as his superior ? it 's liker he had been none for resisting john , of the two : were all degraded that obeyed the apostles ? if it should be an error , that a parochial bishop is a governor over his junior-presbyters , or a diocesan over both ; that nulleth not the presbyters office : the presbyterians give a classis or synod as much power over particular churches , as the episcopal give to diocesans ; ( or near ) : and yet few separatists have thence concluded that they have no particular churches , or that this nulleth them ; contrarily , ab est tertii adjecti ad est secundi valet argumentum ; parish churches are govern'd churches subject to superiors ; ergo , they are churches . and the law calls them churches , 〈◊〉 , it taketh them for churches , ( while it taketh no essential from them ) . xxiii . there are some particular drs. in england indeed , who say that there is no church without a bishop of its own , and 〈◊〉 epi●c●pus , ibi ecclesia , and that ecclesia est pl●●s ep●s●●● adu●ata , and that our parish ministers are no bishops , and that their sole ordinations are nullities ; and consequently it would follow , that their parish churches are truly but parts of a church infimae specie● : and because these men speak against reordination , and yet require those to be ordained again , who were here ordained by mere presbyters , therefore it seemeth plain , that they take the former for no true ordination : these men i have oft confuted , especially in my treatise of episcopacy : and hence some gather , that i charge this error on all the church of england , and take the law and clergy to nullifie the parish-ministry and churches : therefore i am specially obliged to answer such misconcluders , lest they make my writings a means of deceit against my sence , and against my will : for so unhappy is the controversal world , even of men of worth and name , that if i do but say that two is less than three , and that four is more than three , they fear not to say , that i contradict my self , and r. is against b. and sometimes i speak for , and sometimes against the same cause ; and these being ordinary disputers and church-guides , what hope have the christian flocks of unity and peace , but by such mens ceasing their disputes ? here therefore it must be noted , 1. that the men of this opinion are not to be called , the church of england . the most of the bishops and clergy formerly were against them , dr. hammond , and bishop gunning , and a few more , were almost the first that seemed to go so far . 2. and yet even these few do usually except the case of necessity , and of the forreign churches , ( as dr. sherlock hath lately done at large ) so that then they cannot take their episcopal ordination received , to be essential to the priesthood . 3. and these men themselves call our parish societies , parish churches , and deny not the presbyters to be episcopi gregis , and to have a pastoral care of the peoples souls , for they own the liturgy , ordination , and other writings of the church , which assert it . 4. their opposition to presbytery hath carried them to appropriate the name bis●op to the diocesans , but by it they mean only a bishop over presbyters , having the power to ordain and depose them , and to ●● be chief in governing all the flocks ; but the controversie de nomine , and de re are not the same : this denieth not all pastoral episcopacy in presbyters over the flocks under them : that these men by running into extreams do ill , many have written to prove : but maiming the parish ministry , or too much limiting it , is not nullifying it . 5. let it be considered , that even the separatists say not that the power of ordination is essential to pastors : some of them take pastors unordained , only elected and received with prayer : some take men ordained by n●ighbour pastors , that have no power over them : some take men ordained by bishops , some by magistrates : and jurisdiction over n●ighbour pastors i am sure the separatists will say belongs neither to the being or well being of a pastor . if then it be the power of ordaining , and of jurisdiction over other pastors , which the diocesans deny the parish pastors , the● deny them nothing hereby essential to thei● office . all that can with any colour be said , is , that the law now seems to be on these mens side , by requiring reordination . but , 1. the law-makers profess to establish the church , and not to change it to another thing . 2. the law-makers were not all of one mind in the reasons of their laws ; nor had all studied these kind of controversies : many of them , and of the clergy to this day , say that it is not a proper ordination that they require , but the giving them authority to exercise their ministry in england , and the decision of a doubtful case : part of the church taketh them for true ministers that were ordained by presbyters , and part do not ; and that the congregations may not divide , they say they require this like baptizing after a doubtful baptism [ if thou art not baptized , i baptize thee . ] i am against this : but this proveth not that they take a presbyter for no pastor : yea tho they should take his ordaining others to be a nullity ; ordaining not being essential to him . xxiv . the act of uniformity , or the like law , cannot make the church no church , or of another species , than 1. as it is esteemed by god and his law. 2. or as it is esteemed by the greater part of the christian clergy and laity : tho the law should speak as the foresaid odd innovators do . for , 1. all christians profess that christ is the only just institutor of the essentials of his own churches : all christians profess communion with them as churches of christs making by his law : the present church of england professeth this in many books ; it bindeth all ministers to hold to scripture sufficiency , and use discipiine as well as doctrine and worship , as christ commandeth : it openly holdeth all laws and canons about church essentials , yea and integrals , to be void and null that are against the sacred scriptures , and law of god : there is no power but of god : god hath given no power to nullifie his institutions . 2. all true christians who consent to a parish minister , and attend on his ministry , and join in the assemblies , openly profess to own him first as a minister of christ , and to join in worship and communion of the church as prescibed by christ , which no man hath power to overthrow . 3. the parliament and convocations , and bishops and clergy , all confess that they have no power to overthrow the church essentials or offices of christs institution : they have not revoked the church writings in which all this is oft professed : they confess that if their laws mistake and do contrary , they bind us not : they never openly professed a war against god or jesus christ : what if one dr. s. parker , make christ subject to the king in his kingdom ; he is not the kingdom , nor the church of england : for all his words they never made any law to command christ , or to punish him : they never cited him to appear before them , nor did any penal execution on his person , which government implieth . they bow at his name , and profess subjection to him . therefore if the law had by error said any thing inconsistent with the essence of churches and ministry , it had not been obligatory to pastors or people ▪ but they ought still to take churches and pastors to be what christ hath made them , and described them to be . xxv . suppose a law should say , all families shall be so under diocesans as to have no power but from them , and all shall subscribe to this . this doth not null family-power and society as instituted by god , nor make it a sin to live in families , nor dissolve them all ; but all must continue in families as inst●tuted by god : and if any subscribe to this , it will not make it a sin in all wives , children and servants to live in those families . if the law had said , all schools in england shall be essentially subject to diocesans , must we therefore have had no more schools ? or if the school-master subscribe to them , is it a sin to be his scholar ? if the law should say , all christians shall choose their own pastors , and meet and pray and preach as they please , but only in essential subjection to diocesans , must all therefore give over church communion ? if the law had said , all the parish-assemblies in england shall henceforth be essentially subject to the pope , or a forreign council , we must not therefore have forborn all such assembling , but have kept to the state and duty appointed us by christ . xxvi . here the mistaking opponents say , 1. that indeed de jure none can change the essence of christs ministry and churches , but de facto they may , and have done . ans . what is meant by [ changing it , de facto ? ] have they de facto , nulled christs power , law ▪ or offices and churches ? what ? nulled it by a nullity of pretended authority , and overcome his power without power ? de jure and de facto , to be a true church or pastor , is all one christ made true ones : de facto they cannot unmake them , but by destroying matter or form , because they cannot do it de jure : they have destroyed neither matter or form of such parish churches as i plead for , and which christ instituted ; for they had not power to do it : indeed they may de facto make other sort of churches and ministers to themselves , ( tho not de jure ) but not to us ▪ who stick to christs institutions . xxvii . but say they , we confess , if the law did bid all assemblies in england meet in dependance on diocesans , private and publick ; this would not alter the species of our separate churches , because man hath not power , and we consent not . ans . very good . and i pray you what alters the case , as to the parish-churches ? is it that they have steeples and bells , or that they have tythes ? it 's the calamity of dissenters , that they either cannot consider , or can feel no strength in the plainest truth that is said against them ; but thoughts and sense run all one way , which they think right . xxviii . obj. but say they , constitutive and declaritive laws must be distinguished . they can but declare our meetings to be diocesan , which is false ▪ 〈…〉 the parish-meetings such . ans . 1. remember that declaring the parish-churches to be such , doth no more constitute them such , than yours : why then talk you so much of the words of bishops , and clergy , and books , as if their declarations made them such ? 2. but how doth a law constitute one ( the parochial ) to be diocesan , ( or null ) , more than your separate meetings , if by a law of toleration it should say the same of them ? the truth is , they are such to consenters that judg them such : but they constitute them not such to any that consent not to such a constitution , but hold to christs . xxix . but it is said , that our thoughts alter not constitutions , they are our own immanent acts , that nihil ponunt in esse ; and therefore the pastors and churches will be what law maketh them , whatever we think . ans . are not churches formally relative societies ; what maketh them such , but thoughts and wills of men expressed ? gods mind exprest in his institutions is his premised consent ; our consequent obedient consent maketh christians , pastors , and churches : if a law cannot make the parish consent to null christs officers and churches , it doth not null them to them . if a law say , all marriages shall be void unless the bishop remarry them : this maketh them not void to any that consent not , but say , we stand to the valid marriage we had what doth another mans consent do to constitute me a christian or church-member ( except parents for infants ) ? and if my thoughts and consent put nothng in esse , then the thoughts and consents of the conforming clergy alters not their churches ; and what then is that constituting cause you talk of ? is it only the law ? for shame say not so ; gods own law as commanding us to be christians , pastors or churches , maketh us not such , without consent : and can mans law both null gods law , and make us of what species it doth but bid us be , without our consent ? xxx . but here our disputants think they expose me to derision : what ? do i intimate that one and the same congregation , may be two churches of different species ? ans . i think to be such by open profession , is disorderly and unusual : but i think he that denieth this , is unfit to deride the ignorance of another . 1. if the people in one kingdom may be , in specie , two kingdoms , the people of one assembly may be two churches ; but bishop bedle in his printed letter said , that ireland was then two kingdoms , the king being sovereign to some , and the pope to other : and i think hungary is so now , between the emperor and turks . 2. when paul ordinarily held his assemblies in the jewish synagogues , where half were infidels , and half christians , ( before he separated his christians from them ) i think they were two churches . 3. if independents had leave to meet in the parish churches , where the parish minister , and their own minister should preach by turns , and the parish only heard theirs as a lay preacher , or none of their pastor , and so they heard the parish preachers ; i doubt not , but they would be distinct church ▪ if one parish church have two pastors , and one of them be professedly for an essential subjection to the pope , and the other against it , and half the people of one mind , and half of the other , i think they are two churches in one place . if those anabaptists who take none but the re-baptized for church-members , should with their pastors join with independents in worship , tho esteeming them no churches , i suppose you think they would be distinct churches in one place . but i think none of this is the case of the churches that i join with ; for i suppose they null not christs species of ministers to themselves or me . but if they did it to themselves , that would not do it to me . xxxi . obj. but one and the same minister cannot be of two species , and therefore relation to him cannot constitute distinct churches . ans . 1. one and the same man cannot be a minister of christ , and no minister of christ ; so much is true , nor of any two inconsistent species : but if you will call any circumstantial difference a distinct species , that will no● hinder the consistence : the same man may be christs minister , and the kings chaplain , or a dean , or pre●endary , or a diocesan bishop , or subject to a diocesan , such bishops as chrysostom , augustine , ambrose , 〈◊〉 , parke● , grindal , ush●r , davenant , &c and their chaplains did not cease to be christs ministers . 2 relation to one of these men may make two sorts of consistent churche● , if the same man have a parish and a diocess , as the german superintendents have , and many other bishops ; the warrantableness we are not now disputing . 3. yea , one and the same parish minister may be pastor of two churches in one assembly : if he openly profess himself orthodox , the people that so own him are a church ; and if he secretly to a party of them profess himself an anabaptist , or a papist , and they unite with him as such , they are another church , such as it is ; vespae habent favos , & marcionitae ecclesias : tertul. xxxii . obj. but the grand objection is , no man can be a pastor of christ against his will : the parish ministers have all by conforming , renounced the essence of the christian ministry , and subscribed and sworn this renunciat●● by subjecting themselves to diocesans , and swearing never to endeavour any alteration of the diocesan government , and the vestries who represent the churches , have sworn the same ; and you have of●en said that the diocesan form of government , 1. deposeth the parish bishops , and maimeth the ministry . 2. dep●seth the parish churches . 3. and maketh parish discipline impossible . ans . it is impossible to write that , which no man can misunderstand , and make an ill use of . i have oft told you , 1. that i am in doubt , whether arch-bishops as successors of the apostles , only in the ordinary continued part of their office , be jure divino , or not . 2. that congrational bishops over presbyters , being ejusdem ordinis , are an old venerable and lawful humane institution . 3. that congregational bishops , only over the laity , are all presbyters as such , and of christs institution . 4. hereupon i have oft distinguished diocesans into two sorts . 1. those that are but the governors of true particular churches , that depose them not , but rule them by the word perswasively : these are called bishops , being really arch-bishops : these i never charged of the consequents forenamed : and if the king make them cogent magistrates also , i will obey them . i take the judgment of the church of england manifest in ordination , liturgy , articles , &c. to be for such diocesans only , tho i vastly dissent from many things in the canons by which , and the mode in which some exercise their government . 2. the other sort is the innovators form of diocesan government , which hold that there is no church without a bishop , and no bishop but diocesans , ( either bishop of laity or presbyters ) and so that the parish churches are no churches , but part of the lowest sort of true political churches : these i take to be super-conformists , yea nonconformists , and dissenters from the church of england , tho they may strive to get the name of the church to themselves . now , what i say of these innovating nonconformists , and their designs and attempts , our mistaking separatists say , i speak of the laegal church frame , and so of all the bishops and parish-churches . and i see no hope of delivering the church of god from the trouble of incogitant confident erroneous dissenters , that are not able to distinguish . xxxiii . i further answer this great objection ( being concerned in consc●ence to do it , when men father their mistakes and separation on me . ) 1. the parish-ministers that i joyn with , ( and i think the most that ever i knew ) have not ( that i know of ) renounced any thing essential to a parish-pastor : i before said , ordination and jurisdiction over presbyters or other churches , is no part of its essence . to be obedient to a diocesan , is no such renunciation . therefore it is no such renunciation to promise to obey them in lawful things , subordinate to obeying christ . if it prove a mistake in them , and that they owe no such obedience , every such mistake doth not degrade them . he that said , that ( he that will be greatest , shall be servant of all ) thought not that to obey an equal , did null the ministry . nor he that said , be su●ject one to another . christ and peter paid tribute to avoid offence , tho the children be free . but what if a man be in doubt , whether such obedience be not his duty : is it not the safer side much more if he verily think it his duty ? 2. to take diocesans to be jure divino , is said by some to be destructive of the pastoral office , and churches , and a change of the english church-government . but it 's error . for 1. it is not the destructive diocesan government , which acknowledg no church and pastor under them , that those in question consent to ; but the governing diocesan , who ruleth subject pastors and churches . 2. this question of divine right , is threefold . 1. of that which by d●●ire right is necessary , ad esse . 2. of that which is by divine right , best and m●st elegible , or needful , ad melius esse . 3. that which is by right of divine concession lawful , but not necessary . the church of england never determined , which of these was the diocesans case : all conformists judged it lawful ; multitudes judged it better than other forms : many judged it necessary when it might be had . but no law determined for any of these alone . unless you will say , the preface to the book of ordination doth it , by saying [ it is evident to all men diligently reading holy scripture , and ancient authors , that from the apostles time , there have been these orders of ministers in christs church , bishops , priests , and deacons . which offices were evermore had in such reverend estimation , &c. ] here some say , that the church of england took not these for three distinct orders before 1640 , but now : therefore by the word [ these orders ] is meant only two . ans . at this rate , he must have the bette● , whom the hearer best trusteth , whatever he say : if [ these orders of ministers , bishops , priests , and deacons , ] speak not three orders , i cannot understand them . here note partiality ; the same that refuse to subscribe them , because they speak three orders ; yet say , they speak but two ] when they argue that church-government is changed 1662 , from what it was 1640. indeed aelfricks laws in spelman , make bishops and priests the same order , and so do a great part of schoolmen and other papists ; but the english bishops and clergy were some of one mind , and some of another about it , and determined it not . unless this preface be a determination , the name [ order and office ] being both used . and ( to instance in no other ) saravia ( tho no english man , yet of the church of england ) wrote more strongly almost than any that i ever read , for diocesan episcopacy ( against beza , &c. ) and that upon this ground of divine right , that they succeeded the apostles , and such as timothy , titus , &c. in the government of many churches . ( and the kings divines at the isle of white went all on that ground ) . to say then , that to plead a divine right for them , is new , is to contradict large historical evidences . and were it true , that this had been never before imposed or subscribed ; surely it is not an opinion of the divine right of governing of many churches , that renounceth the being of those churches ; it asserteth them to be by divine right . for that which is not , is not governable . non entis , non sunt accidentia . but where and how hath the law or church altered the case since 1640. these words were in the book of ordination before , and i know of none plainer that way since . it s destructive diocesan government , which renounceth the government of any subject churches , but of one only , and of any pastors that i argue against , and not governours of such churches . xxxiv . but it 's objected , that they swear [ not to endeavour any alteration of church-government ; therefore they renounce the pastoral office , because the present government excludeth it . ans . 1. this is to dictate , and not to prove : the diocesan government hampered and fettered it by the canons in the time of whitgift and bancroft , but null'd it not : he that reads the canons , or knows the church , and thinks that it's government hath no need of amendment , is far from my mind : but governing is not nullifying . 2. it is not true ( that ever i heard ) that they swear what this objection saith : the ministers do not swear , but subscribe it , and swear obedience in licitis & honestis : ( and i could never learn what law commands that oath ) . and if it should extend to obey all the canons , it 's that which i would be full loath to swear ; but i know no canon that utterly nulleth the parish-churches and ministers ▪ and a justice that sweareth to execute the laws , is not supposed thereby to justifie every law , nor to execute any , if it should be against gods law , that exception being still supposed . 3. their subscription never to endeavour alteration , engageth them never to endeavour to destroy the parish churches and ministry , and so is for them : for that would be a great alteration indeed . 4. if you should think otherwise ; yet if the subscriber , or swearer think himself , that it is not destructive , but governing diocesans , that he subscribeth to ; it is not your opinion or exposition , that bindeth him against his own ; no , tho you were in the right , as to the imposers sense : for , ignorantis non est consensus . it 's unjust to face them down that they mean what they profess they do not . ask forty conformists , whether they think the government which they promise not to alter , be that diocesan form which ruleth parish churches and pastors , or that which denieth their being , and i think few will profess the latter sense . 5. and suppose the worst , that any parish-priest were of that mind ; yea , and were really no true pastor , as to his own acceptance with god ; he may yet be a pastor so far true , as is necessary to the essence of the church , if the people know it not : for the innocent suffer not for the guilties sin . if a man be a secret atheist , or heretick , or do counter●eit ordination and election , and really had none , and the people be deceived by him , and know it not while he possesseth the place , and doth the work ; his baptisms and administrations are valid to the church , as a church , tho not to himself and his ministry . the jews church was not null , when the high priests had no lawful call , but bought the office of r●man heathens . xxxv . obj. but the vestry swears never to endeavour any alteration . ans . 1. the vestry was never empowred to give the sense of the church herein . 2. i never lived where any such things as vestries were , but in london ; unless you will call the ministers and church-wardens the vestry . and what 's london to all england ? 3. if they are so sworn , it is as a new thing since 1661. but then they are sworn , ( whoever is for it ) never to end 〈…〉 in popery , nor destroying dioce●ans , but only not to alter 〈…〉 i doubt with m●re officers than we wish continued ) 4. and whereas those that i now deal with , say , that indeed before 1640. 〈…〉 churches and pastors , but now it doth by 〈…〉 ; let it be considered , that the lawmakers are so far from professing any 〈◊〉 al●●rat●n , that it is only the long-parliament , and the 〈◊〉 alterati●● , that they complain'd of ; and therefore swea● corporations , vestries , militia , nonconformists ( by the oxford oath ) and engage all conformists never to endeavour any alteration so that they thought that it was the old government that they setled . and now all this great part of the whole kingdom is sworn , as i said , against popery and foreign jurisdiction , against patriarchs , and against putting down parish churches and pastors , that they will never endeavour it ( by consent or execution of any mens commands ) . the alterations made before these oaths , were not essential . xxxi . i add one more argument , that owning subjection to governing diocesans , as such , nulleth not the su●ject churches and pastors ; else by parity of reason , subjection● to arch-bishops would null the diocesan churches and bishops , which it doth not do ; nor do you think it doth ; yea , tho all diocesans solemnly promise to obey their arch-bishops in their consecration . xxxii . if you do know of any minister that is for destructive diocesans , that will not nullifie the offices of all the rest , that never were of that mind or consent : yea , if the law so meant ( as you say , but prove not ) you know how commonly conformists say , that the meaning of the subscription and oaths , is only against [ seditious or unlawful sorts of endeavour to alter . ] be this true or false , it proveth that those men consent not contrary to their sense of the subscription , and so renounce not their churches . xxxiii . indeed the new laws have made ministerial conformity much harder than it was before 164● . and also lay conformity with u● the church-do●rs , by the aforesaid oaths ; and also lay conformity within the church seemeth very hard in some particular offices , especially baptismal circumstances . but i think the ordinary communion in the liturgy , is better than it was before : for 1. the ●pistles and gospels are used after the new translation , which were used after the old . 2. divers collects have some mistakes changed [ as on this day ] at easter , whitsuntide , when it was not on that day . 3. the minister is newly enabled and required to keep all from the sacrament , who are not ready to be confirmed , ( that is , that are not catechized , and ready understandingly , to renew their baptismal covenant ) which is a very great addition of power : and if any practise it not , that 's his fault , and a neglect of execution of his power ; and when he puts scandalous sinners from the sacrament , he may say , [ as a minister of christ and rector of this church , i judg you unmeet for its communion , and forbid it you . ] and no more is essential to his church discipline in excommunication . it 's too true , that the exercise of this it clog'd with further prosecution by him , in the chancellors court , which i think few will undertake . and it 's true , that such ministers are required to publish the excommunications of lay-men , past in the bishops names , tho it be according to such canons , as the 6 th , 7 th , 8 th , &c. but a man in fetters , is a man : it changed not the pastoral office , when heathen emperors persecuted it , and when such christian emperors , as anastasius , zeno , basilicus , theodosius 2d . constantius , valens , &c. vexed or cast out those that were not of their opinions . it nulleth not the office in switzerland to have none but the magistrates discipline . xxxiv . the objectors grant , that , if any parish-church shall by minister and people consenting , be formed according to the rules of the gospel , they are true churches , tho the law should be against them , or command the contrary . ans . 1. much more then , if the law be for all that is essential . 2. and doth not this say as much as i am pleading for ? name me , if you can , any thing essential , which all ministers promise not at ordination ? if any after renounce it , the crime is personal : prove it before you say it , and forsake him , and charge not his fault on others . i think you are not of their minds , that say , [ the law bindeth every subscriber and swearer to the sense of the imposers , when he took it through mistake in another sense , because they refused to explain it ; especially , if he declared his sense : much less doth it bind him to your sense , against his own . xxxv . but then ( say the objectors ) such churches are dissenters ; as such you joyn with them , and not as setled by law , and so it is but a conventicle , and is excommunicated by the canon , or you excommunicated for saying it is a church , and joyning with it . ans . 1. what if all this be true ? doth it follow , that i must separate from it ? are not your private churches more unquestionably excommunicate , &c. by the canon , and yet you separate not from them ? can you see but on one side ? 2. but your affirmation proveth not that the law nulleth such ministers , or churches , as use the liturgy , and subscribe in the favourable sence , tho it should prove a mistake . it must first be tryed and judged to be a mistaken sense , and even where they ( strangely ) excommunicate , ipso facto , the fact must be proved and declared by the judg , before priest and people are bound to execution , ( tho the law be loco sententiae ; the 〈◊〉 being proved and declared ) , no man is bound to do execution on himself . 3. i would seriously advise these brethren to think , whether all good christian men and women are bound to study the laws of england , before they may resolve what church to ●●mmuni●ate with ? yea , whether they must be all so well skill'd in law , as to decide these law-controversies , that you and i are not agreed in , and lawyers themselves do ordinarily differ in ; that is , whether by law the parish-churches and pastors be changed and n●lled , and diocesses be made the only churches , ●●simae species ? must all forbear communion till they are so good lawyers ? why may it not suffice to know christs law , and to profess to obey it , and to do nothing against it willingly ? he that will promise to communicate with th● church , but as it is established by law , should have more skill in the law than i have to know , how it is established ; and every communicant hath not so much more than i. xxxvi . but ( say they ) then you are bound to av●●d s●andal , by professing openly that you communicate 〈◊〉 a dissenter , and not with the church as established by law. ans . 1. then i should falsly say that which i either think is otherwise , or am not resolved in . i tell you , few can truly say this , if any . 2. what need this , when the open profession of all christians is , that it is a church and worship of christs making , which they own and intend , and none that is against them ? and when the articles of the church of england , and the ordination covenant own scripture-sufficiency , and disclaim all that is against gods word : must we be supposed to renounce religion , when we meet to profess it ? and surely for disowning any thing which the nonconformists judg unlawful , all the books written by them , and all the notorious sufferings in twenty two years , ejection and prosecution , are no obscure notification of their judgments , without speaking it at the church ●oors , or before the assemblies : must i openly protest against independency , anabaptistry , or presbytery , ( if i dissent ) before the face of their congregations , if i will communicate with them ? 3. but to stop your demand bef●re i communicated in the parish ●hurch , where i now am ; i went to the incumbent , and told him that i would not draw him into danger , or intrude against his will : i had been ●●iled by the kings commission , and after by the lord keeper , to debate about alteration in the liturgy and worship , and discipline ; and i thought that thereby i wa● by 〈◊〉 6 , 7 , 8. ipso facto excommunicate , but not bound to do execution on my self ; and therefore if i were separated , it should not be my act ; but i left it to his will : he took time , and upon advice admitted me . obj. but you must tell them that the parish church hath no dependance on the bishops , but as the kings officers ; and that it is independent , and then you fall not under our opposition . ans . 1. how many lawyers and civilians do openly say ( as crompton before cosins tables ) that all church government floweth from the king. and doth that satisfie you ? 2. and why must the parish church and pastor needs be independent ? will you have no communion with presbyterians ? 3. and what if it be dependent on the diocesan , as governour ( tho not as destroyer ) ? is it any more destructive of its essence , than to be governed by a classis or council ? xxxvii . as for your telling us , w●●m the canons e●c●mmunicate , or 〈◊〉 lay-chancellors , officials , surrogates , archdeac●ns , &c. exc●mmunicate , what oaths they imp●se , &c. tell them of it , and not us , who are not responsible for other mens deeds . it no more concerneth our cause of parochial lay-communion , than to tell us how bad men some ministers are , nor so much neither : for i that willingly joyn in the liturgy , will not willingly , if i know it , so much as seem to own the ministry of any man that is notoriously insufficient , atheistical , heretical , or so malignant , or wicked , as to do more hurt than good ▪ avoid such , and spare not . xxxviii . obj. they want the peoples c●nsent , and so are no past●rs . ans . the people shew their consent by ordinary submission and communion . obj. the people must be supposed to consent to the law , which maketh them no pastors , but the bishops curates . ans . both the suppositions are before confuted ; both that the people are supposed to consent to any law against gods , and that the law maketh curates to be no pastors . xxxix . to conclude the objections about the essence of parish churches . 1. the question is not . whether there be not a sort of diocesan prelacy , which nulleth them ? 2. nor wh●ther there be not some men in england that write and plead for such diocesan churches as have no true episcop●s pregis , much less episcopus 〈◊〉 under them , but are 〈◊〉 bishops in that diocess ? nor of what number , power , or interest these men are of ( against whom i have oft written ) ? 3. but whether the law be on their side , or against them ? for the old diocesan government of subordinate pastors and churches , is to me n●w uncertain : i did once incline most to the fi●●t sense of the law ; but on sec●nd thoughts hope better of it , and am not lawyer good enough to be certain 4. but if it should be so , i verily think ●●e main 〈◊〉 , of the 〈…〉 , and therefore 〈◊〉 not to renounce their p●rish ●overnment , ●ut only to use it in subordination to the bishop . 5. and i am p●st doubt that all the communicants of england , are neither ●ound to decide this law-doubt , nor to understand it , nor to believe that the law hath altered the government . 6. and if they did believe it , they ought to keep on in church assemblies ▪ according to christs law , taking all that 's against it , as void , as long as they are put ●n no sin themselves , nor the church notoriously renounceth its ●ssentials . 7. and if they were stated members of other churches ( e.g. the gre●k , the dutch , the french ) ; they might ●ccasionally communicate in our parishes transiently ( without examining the pastors call and discipline , but judging by possession and practice ) . 8. and if they should prove no lawfully called ministers , their office would be valid to those that blamelesly were deceived and knew it not . 9. and if they were sure that they were no true ministers , they may joyn with them in all worship belonging to lay-christians . 10. but if they prove able , godly ministers of christ ( tho faulty ) setled by law to the advantage of religion in a christian kingdom , where all are commanded thus to maintain national concord ; and the upholding those churches , is the very national possession of the protestant religion , and it goeth for publick disobedience and scandal to forsake them , and that at a time when many forsake them too for unjust grounds , and by suffering for it , stand to unwarrantable accusations of them , and sharply censure those that do not as they , and oppugne peacemakers , and all this after the old nonconformists full confutation of the separatists unwarrantable way , and the doleful experience of subversion of all sorts of government ; by the prosecution of such mistakes , i say , if all this should be the case , it is deeply to be considered . xl. but the most effectual hindrance , is the opinion of unlawfulness in j●yning in the liturgy ; yet my last objectors confess that [ it is lawful to some , and that it is n●t communion in it , much less in all forms , which they call unlawful t● all : and the sober sort are loth to say t●at the millions of christians in england , and scotland , who live where they can be in no other churches , should rather like atheists live without all church-worship and local communion . and in gaining this , i have gained the better half of what i pleaded for . and they confess , and so do i , that publick communion may be one mens duty , and anot●●rs sin , as circumstances vary . i confess one man may possibly live under so intollerable a minister , as is not to be owned . and even some of the high adversaries of nonconformists seem of this mind , and break the canon ; and having pastors , who they think do not heartily conf●rm , ●ut plead for peace and moderation ; they revile them as trimmers , and will not communicate wi●h them , but go out of their own parishes ( and thousands seldom any where . other circumstances also may vary mens cases . ●ut some objectors at last t●ll us , that the great difference which they mean , is differe●t light : t●e ●ld martyrs , reformers and nonconformists , had not so much light as we , and so it w●s not th●●r sin ; but greater light being now m●r● common , it will be a common sin to j●yn in the liturgy ▪ ans . 1. it is ordinary and easie for men to magnifie their own understandings ; but gods law was then the same as now ; and they were bound to know it ; their ignorance might make sin less ( and stripes fewer ) but could not make it none . 2. i have many reasons to think that it is your light that is l●ss , and the old nonconformists and conformists ( in this ) that was greater . 1. that is the greater light that most agreeth with gods word , and th● universal churches practice accordingly . 2. the writings of the old nonconformists yet extant , give better reas●ns than the seperatists did , and therefore had clearer light . what vast difference is there in the writings of ball , hildersham , am●sius , ( manuductions ) gifford , paget , bradshaw , &c. on that part , and johnsons , cans , penrys , &c. on the other ? 3. the theological writings and labours of the nonconformists in all other points shewed , that they were men of incomparable more light than the separatists ; and is it like that god would give men such rare light only in church ▪ communion , that had so little comparatively in the rest of divinity ; except ainsworth's skill in hebrew , ( in other things by paget laid too naked ) how few old separatists have left any considerable fruits of great light unto the church ? read the writings of cartwright , dudley fenner , hildersham , john reignolds , dod , perkins , bai● , parker , ames , bradshaw , &c. besides scots ▪ and all foreigners , such as calvin , beza , zanchy , sadeel , and hundreds more ; and compare these with the writings of the separatists , and judg who had greater light . 4. since 1660. all the london ministers , and others with them t●at offered the king to set up in the parish churches the old liturgy with some alterations , were men ( except my self ) who shewed in their writings and preaching ▪ as much light as the separatists have shewed , even brown , or john goodwin himself , ( that wrote prelatical preachers are no teachers of christ ) : where do they now shew greater light than others ? this boast to me deserveth pity more than confutation : anabaptists , and others say the same , but i find much less light in them both , when i read and hear them ; tho i truly love and honour all that is good in them : if you have so much more light than we and all the reformed churches , shew it us in other excellencies . xli . but i must more particularly consider of this authors allegation of my own words against me , especially my treatise of episcopacy : and i do heartily thank him for calling me to review it . for , 1. i profess to write nothing which may not be amended . and 2. if mens misunderstanding turn my writings to a snare and scandal , it greatly concerneth me to remove it by explication , or by retractation of any thing that needeth it . and 1. i do find that i have incautelously given some occasion to the mistake ; for thol entituled my book , not against diocesan episcopacy , but against that sort of diocesan churches , prelacy and government , which casteth out the primitive church sp●cies of ●piscopacy , ministry , and discipline ] ; and tho to avoi● mistake , i said in the preface , i ●ere give notice to the reader , that whenever 〈…〉 me speak as against the english diocesan prelacy , i mean it as described by cosins and dr. zouch , and as relating to the et c●tera oaths and 〈◊〉 ▪ and not in opposition to the laws of the land ; yet all this was not enough to avoid misunderstanding ! indeed i took the church government to be described and judged of by the churches own sentence , more than by the ●●w ; and i had read the said et cetera oath and canons with the words that so it ●ught to stand , which i think could mean nothing less , than that so by gods law it ought to stand ; and i had read the old canons , 6 th , 7 th , and 8 th . which ex●ommunicate , ipso facto , all men , with●ut excepting l●rds or parliament m●n , who affirm that any thing in the church government , by arch-bishops , bishops , deans , arch-deacons , and the rest that bear office therein , is repugnant to the word of god : and i read the canons that forbid ordained ministers to preach till they are further licensed by bishops ; yea , and in the church or elsewhere so much as to expound any doctrine or matter , but only to r●ad scripture and homilies , &c. with much more like this . 3. and then i took the stated restraint of the ministry , with lay-chancellors , and officials decre●ive power of excommunication , and absolution , and the foresaid civilians denying all g●venment to presbyters , to have been quoad exercitium quantum 〈◊〉 ; at least an overthrow of parish churches , rectors and discipline . 4. and i thought that the bishops and chancellors could never have so long done all this , and ruled by these canons , if the law had not been on their side . 5. and i thought that the authors of the canons of 1640 being a c●nvo●a●i●n , it was to be called the church of england : and specially when i found the most highly honoured doctors pleading , there was no bishop but d●●cesan , and no church without its proper bishop . by all these inducements ( with long sad experience ) i oft speak so incautelously calling this , the english d●●●●san frame , that the reader might easily think that i meant it was that frame that was setled by law ; whereas having read ●ryn , h●ntley , leigh●●● , and others that deny the law to be for it , and being my self a stranger to that case of law , i should have more fully separated the law case from the new convocation case , and much more from the destructive innovators case , who nullified the foreign churches , with whom it was that i disputed ; and specially considering that the canons and oath of 1640. were a●ter cashier'd by parliament , and never since restor'd , no not by the parliament of 1662. upon all this , 1. i retract all words that seem to determine the case in law , ( if any such be there ) or that by darkness tend so to the readers error . 2. and all words that make the writings of superconformists and subver●ers , or chang●rs of the church government , or the canons of the convocation 1640 to be the sense of the church of england , when it is said , that before its sence was otherwise and alteration is now abjured , or disowned by most of the land ; and conformists usually profess another sense : upon this very reason i write this short debate to avoid the injuring of the re●ders of my writings , about the english diocesan frame . xlii . the book i animadvert on , is called , mr. baxters judgment and reasons against c●mmunicating with the parish assemblies as by law r●qu●red . ans . i am for communicating with them in the essentials of christianity , and communion , as the law requireth , if i understand it , because the law of christ requireth it : but in whatever circumstances any law shall ●e against christs law , i communicate not according to such a law. xliii . all that he citeth out of my writings , p. 2 , 3 ▪ is against his cause , which he thought was for it , as i have proved . what he citeth § ● . the first is unproved , the second i own , and is nothing for him . xliv . p. 5. and oft throughout , he alledgeth , that i make the par●shes not compleat particular churches . ans . no wonder ; those may be true churches , that are not compleat in integrity or degree ; will you separate from all churches that are not so compleat ? i know not of any strictly compleat on earth : many true churches are incompleat as to integrals , much more as to ornament , order , and strength : and all particular churches are less compleat than the universal ; and that on earth , alas how far from compleat : believe him not reader , that r.b. is against your joining with all churches , which he proveth to be not compleat , yea , or to be very faulty and defective in point of ●oliness , love , or order of ministers or people : but they are true churches in essentiality , tho parts of a diocess , as that is of a nation ; not meer parts of the lowest single church . p. 6. § 2. what i say of suspending the power , is not nulling it in the office ; and what i say of practice by canons , and visitation articles , is not said of law ; much less of all the churches and pastors consent to them ; and what i say of misgoverning in exercise , is not said of a national profession , that so it ought to b● . p. 7. he citeth my words further against restraint of the ministers power . but 1. that nulleth not christs institution of it . 2. more power is given . as 1. to deny the sacrament , as is said , to all that are not ready to be confirmed . 2. to deny absolution to all the sick , who do not humbly and earnestly desire it , &c. and the power of doing it by ministerial application of gods word , is all that is properly ministerial , though they take all cogent power from us : mans taking away our power , is but hindring the exercise quantum in se , but the power is of christ , which they cannot take away . p. 8. they cannot suspend our commanded act , ( but only our doing it with liberty and advantage ) : i can refuse the sacrament to the unfit , tho it be to my trouble . p. 9. i say there are many additions to the old conformity ▪ that make the case harder to clergy and laity than of old : but i there maintain that none of these additions do make parochial communion now pleaded for , unl●wful . xlv . p. 10. he saith , if we might not endeavour to restore the old prelacy , then not to give strength to it being restored : and ( say others ) , lest we be perjured , having sworn and covenanted against it . ans . this needeth impartial consideration : they say , that our covenant engagement maketh that unlawful to us , which was lawful to the old nonconformists . but 1. did not gods law make it unlawful to them , or to us before ? then you think we covenanted to do somewhat th●t ●ods law bound us not to ; if so , it was superstition ; and is not adding our self-made vows and duties , as bad as adding ceremonies ? 2. yea , they then thought brownism a sin ; and if they mistook not , we cannot by covenanting turn sin into duty . 3. ad hominem , the author professeth independency : and i suppose he knoweth , that the chief of that way , did some write , to prove that the covenant bound not ( at last ) , and some likened it to an almanack out of date ; and some said , it was a league which was dissolved , and so bound not ; and how great a party thought that it bound them not from pulling down both king , and many parliaments , and conquering scotland , res ips● loqunta ●st : and even king and parliament , lord spiritual , temporal and commons , have declared it their judgment in the corporation act and declaration , which bindeth all the corporation officers to declare without exception , that there is no obligation on them , or any other from the oath , called the solemn league and covenant : it 's true indeed , that the presbyterian ministers , and soldiers ▪ and people , thought that this covenant bound them to restore the king ; and said , let us keep our covenant , and trust god with the issue ; and g. monks army officers in their address to him , glory in it , not doubting but the king would find such his best subjects ; but the law that bindeth men to declare that there is no obligation on them or any other , tells them they did err when they thought it bound them to restore the king : whether this be true or not , i meddle not with ; but by this you see , that there are few in the land of any party , save presbyterians , that can charge us with covenant breaking ( herein ) for going to the parish churches , without contradicting themselves or guides ; but this is but ad hominem . 4. but what words be they in the covenant that we violate ? did it mean , if power restore the liturgy , and bishops , and will suffer no other churches , we will rather all give over all worship of god in churches , than we will join with them ? this were a wicked oath , and could no more oblige us , than to give over all family worship ; i hope few sober men ever so sware . 5. i so little consent to the corporation declaration , that i do believe that i was bound by that vow to do as i have done in going to the parish churches . for 1. i am bound by it against prophaneness , and all that 's c●ntrary to sound doctrine and godliness : but to forsake all publick worship of god without necessity , is prophaneness , and c●ntrary to godliness . 2. i am bound in my place and calling to oppose popery ; but to tell all the protestants in england , that they sin if they forsake not all the parish churches , is to pre●are them for the reception of popery , seeing that will be the national religion which possesseth those parish churches : by deserting our garisons we shall deliver them up . 3. i am bound by it against schism ; and i am not able to excuse it from being schism , if under all the obligations that now lye upon us , i should by my constant avoiding the parish churches , even unto sufferings declare , that i take their communion for absolutely unlawful , and so slander so many churches of christ , and seduce others with me into the same error and sin : this would be schism and covenant-breaking in me ; whatever it is in others . xlvi . obj. but you swore against prelacy and liturgy , and now you strengthen them . ans . 1. as the covenant was made the terms or test of national church union , excluding all the episcopal , who were half the kingdom and more , i think it was a rash sinful engine of unavoidable division : but when i took it , it was not so imposed , but offered to them that were of that mind , and i saw not then that snare . 2. i never swore against the common-prayer , nor against the englsh frame of prelacy , ( much less , all episcopacy ( any further , than in my place and calling to endeavour reformation according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches : and this i have endeavoured to the utmost of my power , perhaps more than my accusers . and 3. there is much good in the liturgy , parish order , and government : i never did covenant against that ; and therefore the ministers who laboured for reformation and concord 1660 and 1661 , thought they kept their covenant by craving some amendments , and not an abolition ; and if we did think any thing to be bad that was good , we must not be obstinate in that error ; forsaking the good which is our duty , is not the way to amend any sin or error ; avoiding gods publick worship , and living like atheists ( save in private ) is not the way to amend the faults of publick worship or government : praying to god for what we want , and owning the scriptures , and christian religion , and communicating with christians on lawful terms , is not encouraging any sin in church priests or prelates , unless men by our duty will be encouraged to sin ; and we must not forsake duty to avoid such mens encouragement : the sons of the coal are most angry with those that come nearest to them in all things save their sin and error ; and say , those that stand afar off cannot hurt them : i do not just●fie all that is in every assembly that i join with ; must i needs renounce local communion with every independent , presbyterian , or anabaptist church , that i dissent from , for fear of strengthning them : i covenanted as much against schism as faulty prelacy ; and yet if i must join with no church that is guilty of schism , alas whither shall i go ? 4. i humbly desire you to examine , whether your way be not a breach of the covenant you plead ; not only as it advantageth prophaneness , popery , and schism , but as it strengtheneth that which you say i strengthen ; he knoweth not england , who knoweth not that perceiving the error of unwarrantable separation , and the unjust accusations of the liturgy and churches , used by very many ( besides some failings in some private churches ) hath been , and is a grand cause of encouraging too great a number , even to superconformity , and to the fierce opposition of us , and to the utmost confidence in their own way : and as you charge me more than others as drawing more to the communion of godly protestant parish ministers ( that is , to christian catholick love , peace , and communion ) : so do the sons of the coal , the superconformists more fiercely revile me as stopping more , than you have done from their extremities . gods word is a sufficient rule , keep to that , and fear not breaking any self-made laws . xlvii . obj. but by this latitude you may join with papists , and say , you judg of them according to christs description . ans . i answered this in the former book : when i joyn with any church as a church , i join with them as meeting to profess and practice christian faith and worship , their by faults i own not : but if they openly profess idolatry or heresie , instead of worship and faith , or if they meet to practice any sin which renders the whole church or worship rejected by god , i must not assemble with them , but avoid them ; which i must not do for tolerable failings , lest i avoid all the world : i say again , i will cast away my wine or broth for poyson in it , which i will not do for a fly : if the church renounce christs description in the essentials , notoriously , i will not call it a church against their own consent : but if they do it only in some accident or integrals , i will only disown those faults . xlviii . obj. but , say they , ( p. 13.14 . ) it is impossible there should be two national churches , at least in one nation ; therefore by joining with a parish you can be no part of the national church ; tho we confess that if you join with a parish assembly that forms it self into a compleat single church , and the people ●onsent to take the parish minister for their pastor , and the minister should exercise the whole power of a pastor in this parish church , mr. b. may hold communion with this parish church , and not own the diocesan constitution . ans . of two churches in one assembly i spake before . 1. doth this author think that exercise of power is as essential to a minister as power : yea , that it must be the whole power that is exercised ; and so that no one is a true pastor among the presbyterians , when the classis exerciseth the highest part of the power ; nor in helvetia , where discipline is unexercised ; nor in england from the first reformation : were all the conformists that submitted to diocesans no church-pastors ? nor no independents , whose churches having many pastors and elders , no one exerciseth ( no nor hath ) more than part of the power ? integrity and essentiality , office and exercise , are not all one . 2. all good ministers that i know in the parish assemblies , do consent to the pastoral office , and the people love them , and shew their consent by ordinary communion ; and they exercise all essential to the office , tho under the restraints of government , not owning ( in consent ) destructive , but governing diocesans , some as de jure divino , lawful ; some as best , some as necessary , many as merely impowered to a cogent government by the king ; and doth not your concession imply , that these are true churches ? of intolerable men i speak not . 3. what you confidently deny , is certainly true : there may be two national churches in one nation , if not three ; that is , the word is equivocal , and hath divers sences ; and it is not called national , because all persons in the nation are of it , but because that the diffused parts of the nation own it formally in a publick national relation . 1. a christian kingdom as such , is by many called a national church ; thus england is such . 2. a coalition of the most , or all the publick ministers in a nation in synodical agreements for communion as such , is called a national church ; such also is england . 3. the subjection of the most of the clergy in a nation by consent to some ecclesiastical primate , patriarch , or other constitutive , governing head ( as a bishop is in his diocess ) may make a national church in another sence . the same men may be of divers of these equivocal churches ; or if part be for one form , and part for another , yet agreeing in the same ordinary , external communion ; one part may be called national as well as the other . the question is de ●omine , the name equivocal from diversity of relations : i own , 1. a christian kingdom . 2. i own a national association of parish churches and pastors . 3. tho these submit to diocesan superiority , and be parts of a diocess , but true single churches , i do not therefore separate from them . 4 ▪ a national church , headed by one constitutive , pastoral head , i disown ; call which you will the national church . but ( saith he of his approved parish church ) , p. 14. such a church a●●i●meth to it self all that past●ral p●wer that in pursuance of canon and statute law , is fixed in the bishop . ans . incogitantly spoken ; do all independents assume the power of ordination , jurisdiction over others , citations , licencing , subspendings , degradings , silencings , instituting , inducting , &c. which are so fixed on the bishop : if none of this be pastoral power , then the appropriating it is no depriving parish ministers of pastoral power ; and to be under magistrates power nulls not the pastors . xlix . what he saith about unlawful terms of communion , p 21. &c. in the instances of kneeling , putting off the hat , standing up , &c. i answer , 1. the author all along seemeth to forget , that i am not accusing him , not telling every man his duty , but only giving the reasons of my own and such others practice : so they make a long ado , to vindicate him whose manuscript i answered , and say , his question was only , whether it be lawful to communicate with the churches as setled by law , and not in other respects ? when i ever told them , i meddle with none of their questions , but my own , viz , 1. whether i and such other do well or ill in that communion we hold with the parish churches ? 2. whether all protestants in england are bound in conscience to renounce and avoid communion in the liturgy with all parish churches and chappels , and rather to give over all church worship ? i only gave my reasons , why that manuscript ( divulged and boasted of as unanswerable ) changed not my judgment ; and i answered that in his arguments , which went further than the question put by them , and assaulted my own assertions ; having before in my christian directory , and cure of church divisions ( without naming him ) fully answered his printed reasons , to prove it unlawful to use an imposed form or liturgy , especially because ministers must use their own gifts . but if any man believe that it is a sin to communicate kneeling , or standing , or sitting , unless he lye down as christ did ; or at any time , save at a feast or supper ; or any where save in an inn or an upper room , or with any women , or more than twelve , or if they think it sin to kneel at prayer , or be uncovered , or to sing psalms in our metre and tunes , whether these men should separate from all the churches that will not receive them in their own way , or how far they do well or ill that will not let every man do what he will , is none of the case that i have before me : it will not follow , that i must separate from a church that bids me kneel , and be uncovered , &c. because you take it to be sin : put not your measures on all others . and here because same maketh mr. faldo the author of the vindication , which i answered , that i may so far vindicate him , as to shew , that it 's ●earce likely ; i ask , whether if mr. faldo did well as a pastor to keep up a church at barn●● many years , which would not endure the singing of a psalm of praise to god , but constantly forbore it , tho his judgment was against them ▪ ( besides that many of them were not only against infant baptism , but f●rther differ'd in other things ) ? was this communion more lawful or laudable than with honest parish ministers in the liturgy ? did he the whole office of a pastor : what if the bishop had forbid him to sing ●salms ? is not the church state more concerned in the whole congregation ▪ than in an absent bishop ? what greater omission or defect is there in many parish-churches ? i again say , that i am so far of the judgment of hildersham , john ball , &c. that i had rather joyn ( caeteris paribus ) in a church that useth the psalms , chapters , and all the lords-day prayers in the liturgy , before sermon , than one that only giveth us one psalm ( or none ) and a pulpit-prayer and a sermon without all the rest of church worship . l. i will conclude all with repeating a little of the explication of my misused writings ▪ i. the pastoral oversight of the laity by the elders , or bishops of the several flocks , is of christs institution , and belongs to all true presbyters : and tho in necessity it may be done by divers transient ministers , pro tempore , most regularly , every church should have it s stated pastors . ii. where such churches are large , the work requireth many ministers , where each one hath but part of the charge . iii. reason and church-consent among these , made one a president over the rest , and called him the bishop pecularly , ( if it were in marks days , as hierom saith , it was in john's ) . and tho this be not essential to a church , it is lawful , and fit ; and at last it grew to so great a reputation and opinion of necessity , that all churches had such bishops , and gave them a negative voice , and ordained not without them , and defined churches as essentiated by relation to them , ecclesia est plebs episcopo adunata . if now such men as j.o. mr. nye , dr. goodwin , &c. should have in one church six or seven young men of their own training up to be their assistant-presbyters , i do not think an independent church would take it for any crime that he should have a negative voice in acts of order and discipline , or that they should ordain ministers therein without his consent . iv. by degrees single congregations increased to as many as our great parishes that have chappels , and tho still they communicated in the chief church at some special times of the year ; they ordinarily met in divers places , and the presbyters officiated some in one meeting , and some in another ; at first , whosoever the bishop daily sent ; but after their particular tyths or chappels were assigned to each ; yet all together were esteemed but one church , governed by one bishop , and his colledg of presbyters . v. when they increased yet more and more , fixed chappels were assigned to fixed presbyters ; but not as distinct churches , but parts of the diocesan church , tho at last they were larger than one bishop and colledg could guide , according to the first institution . vi. yet long every christian city had a bishop and church , and every incorporate big town , like our corporations or market-towns , was called a city ( not because it had a market , as a reverend slanderer seigneth me to lay , but because custom the master of language , called all corporations and great towns by that name● : but at last the bishops being loath to diminish their jurisdiction , decreed that very small cities should have no bishops , ne vi●c●eat nomen episc●pi . and in process of time in some countries , the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or city , was appropriated at the princes pleasure to some very few corporations , peculiarly priviledged above the rest : so that a king that would have had but one bishop in his kingdom ( as it 's said that all the aba●●ian empire hath had but one ) might have done it by calling but one town a city . vii . yet the people and bishops being sensible that there was more work for a bishop in a city-diocess , than one could do ; in many countries they had rural bishops set over p●pul●ns country churches : and tho these were subject to the diocesans , yet hereby the churches were multiplied : but the bishops soon grew jealous and weary of these rural-bishops , and most places put them down , and set up instead of them a kind of itinerant visiting presbyters , empowring all arch-bishops and ach ▪ deacons , till at last to save themselves the labour , and yet not diminish their dominion , they set up the courts of lay-chancellors , officials , and many such offices , besides the arch-deacons , surrogates , &c. viii , ▪ in england ( as is agreed by most historians ▪ ) at first one bishop had but one church or temple . ( and at luindisfarne saith bede , it was so po●● a thing , that it was a house thatcht with reeds . ) the pastor of this one church was to convert as many as he could in all the countrey about him . the heathen country might be his diocess , but not his church . the converted christians got into several monasteries , and not into parish-churches . these monasteries were partly for society in religious exercise , and partly for studies , like schools to educate youth for the ministry ▪ so that long a diocess was only the bishops church with divers monasteries . at last , gentlemen for their convenience built and endowed parish-churches ; the bishops old single churches being called the cathedrals : and finally , by the help of princes , all the land was divided into parishes , subject to the cathedral-bishops , to whom deans and chapters were added in imitation of the old bishops colledg of presbyters in every single church . ix . when the rural-bishops were put down , the presbyters power in their several parishes was somewhat enlarged : and the diocesses at last became so great , that the bishops were sain to commit more of the oversight to the presbyters : tho they kept them under by severe canons , lay-deputies , and the cogent sword. x. it grew then a controversie among the papists themselves , whether the parish incumbents were proper pastors , and had any power of government , and how much . and my objectors confess , that they were reputed pastors among the papists , and that linwood calleth them pastors , and the laity oves : i have cited in treat of epis . ●ilesa●us , and many more that prove it . ant. de dom. spalatensis , is large and full in it . sp●lman in r. a●l●ricks law , shews that the bishop and presbyter made but one of their seven orders : a great sort of the schoolmen say the same . most drs. say , that the presbyters essentially as sacredetes , have the power of the keys , inf●ro interi●re ; by which they mean not , a power that must be kept secret , but that which consisteth in the perswas●v● use of gods word on c●nfer●n●e , privately or publickly , as distinct from magisterial and c●gent power . and if they ●e of one order , then if one be a past●r , the other is so also . that they are taken , but in partem curae , is nothing against it , but for it . for equal presbyters in one church , have each but partem curae . the reformation finding th●ngs in this case , determined none of the disputes , de nomine , whether parish rectors shall be called ●pis●op●s gregis , or pastors , or rectors , or i●cumb●nts ; but use these names promiscuously . nor did they dispute whether the parishes are political churches . but the definition , and not the name , is the thing now before us in debate . god hath given every such minister the essence of a pastoral oversight of his flock : men may hinder the exercise , but can no more alter the christian office power , than they can deprive a husband of the power over his wife . and the diocesans at last have been necessitated to permit the essential pastoral power ( by the word ) to the incumbents , having none else to use it by . but lawyers have taught many to call nothing government , that is not cogent on the unwilling ; and so to say , that government is not in the presbyters , but the bishops ; and that all is derived from the king ; which is all true , of cogent government by the sword , in f●ro exteriore ; but not as to pastoral government of the flock by gods w●rd . as bishop bilson of obedience hath distinguished , and applied well at large . xi . now to come nearer our case , diocesan bishops have put down the ranks of bishops which of old was setled as presidents over the presbyters in every church , in cities , and of the lowest order ( described by ignatius , and cyprian , and others ) : every lowest church hath not now a bishop over the presbyters , as it had for divers hundred years . and by this they have unchurched all the old sort of churches in the sense of them that say , there is no church where there is no bishop over pre●byters : and they have set up a diocesan church and bishop , only w●●re should be many churches and bishops ; and thus , 〈◊〉 hom●●●m , i argued with them , &c. but indeed this parochial episcopacy , or pr●sid●ncy being wrongfully said to be essential to the church ( being at most b●t useful to peace , ad melius esse ) and the epicopacy or pastoral care of the laity without any power over the clergy ; being it that is essential to single church pastors , in truth no man can alter this . in consent and ●●putati●n , it is altered by those that think parish curates no pastors , and deny any essential power over their flocks . but it is not in consent and reputation destroyed by them that acknowledg their essential power , and subject only themselves as pastors to the oversight of diocesans and magistrates . they do but destroy the 〈…〉 of episcopacy of humane institution ( which was over presbyters in 〈◊〉 ch●rch●● ▪ but not the episcopacy over the flock which is of christs ins●i●utio● ▪ xii . 〈◊〉 whether most in england are of this opinion , or of that , for 〈◊〉 or for meer g●verning episcopacy , and which way the laws go , and 〈◊〉 may be called the sense of the church , when convocations and bishops seem to differ , and men change their opinions with the age and interest , it is impossible for me to be sure . but i know how they govern , by what canons , and by what courts ; and as all their cogent power is from the king , it is no wonder if they be chosen by him : but the old sort of bishops that had no forcing power , was so constantly otherwise chosen , that their canons nulled the magistrates choice . and our present canons since 1604 , tho they null not the parochial pastorship , do so far restrain it , as i hope my conscience shall never approve . but yet , for that i will not forsake what is of god , nor make mans failings a pretence against my duty to god and man , to the violation of love , unity and peace . yet i will try by distinct speaking to make both the case and my meaining plainer , if i can : and thereby to shew , that our case differeth but gradually from the old nonconformists , as to lay-mens parochial communion , where there are honest ministers . and that the old nonconformists had better evidence , scripture and reason on their side , than either those innovators , who make parish-pastors to be but de specie , of humane institution , made by bishops , and changeable by them , having just so much power as they please to give them ; or the brownists , that are so much of the same principles , as to think that mens laws or canons can change the form of the office , or that judg it nullified by tollerable imperfections , and communion made unlawful by such faults , as are found in almost all the churches on earth . qu. whether according to the description of the scripture , and the exposition of dr. hammond himself , all qualified parish ministers be not true pastors and bishops of the flocks , and with their consenting christian communicants , true particular churches ; and de facto all be not in the power given them by god , which is essential hereto , and in the power generally acknowledged by the legal church ? ans . i have spoken to this so largely in my treatise of episcopacy , ( and there added the testimonies of writers , old and new , protestants and papists ( that i will give but a breviate of it here . the essence of the church ministry consisteth in power and obligation from christ , to teach , to guide in worship , and to oversee and guide the conversation and communion of the flocks ; if it were not of christ , they were but officers of men , de specie , even of an office of mans making . dr. hammond saith , that christ gave the keys only to the apostles , and they only to their successors : that there is no evidence that there were any of a second order of presbyters in scripture time ; that this order was after made by man , mr. dodwell sheweth how and why ; and more fully than dr. hammond , asserteth , that such presbyters have no more power than the ordaining bishops intended to give them : or saith dr. h. if they have a first power , it is such as may not be exercised without a second ; so that it is indeed no true power to act : and the dr. plainly tells the london ministers p. 80 , 81. there is no manner of incongruity in assigning of one bishop to one church , and so one bishop in the church of jerusalem , because it is a. church , not churches : being forced to acknowledg that where there were more churches , there were more bishops . and he denied our presbyters , that were not diocesans , to be bishops ( both city and country presbyters ) : and consequently that our parishes were no churches . and on these grounds he and bishop gunning , and such others , judged presbyters ordination null , because they were no bishops . and the said dr. ( tho i thought he had been next petavius , one of the first that had expounded the new testament elders , to be all bishops of several diocesses ) yet tells us that he thought most of his brethren were of his mind herein : and when we in worcestershire formed a pacificatory association of the epicopal , presbyterians , indep●ndents , and peace-makers , agreeing lovingly to practice so much in doctrine , worship and discipline as we were for , according to our several principles , forbearing each other in the rest , and dr. warmst●●● , and dr. tho. good , being for bishops , subscribed to it , dr. peter gunn●●g wro●e largely against so doing to dr. warmstrie , and took him off , upon these aforesaid principles ; and they then called their judgment , the judgment of the church of england , and wrote as if the church had been of their mind , and gone their way . i wrote ●large answer to dr gunning's paper , ( not printed ) and proved that the old protestant bishops and doctors were of another mind , largely citing their testimonies in my christian c●nc●rd , and plainly warned english protest●nts to take heed of these innovators , and that the name of the church and episcopacy deceive them not against the church and protestant cau●e ; many ●ose against me for this with great indign●tion , especially arch-bishop bramhall , and two or three learned writers , and would make the world believe , that it was the church of england which i sought to defame and bring under suspition , and which owned gr●tius and his way of reconciliation with rome , when as it was for departing from the professed principles of the reformed bishops and doctors , and from the book of ordination , and other writings of the church that i blamed them : yet would they needs claim the name of the church of england . and it is not here seasonable for me to tell , how many and how great men in 1661 , and 1662 seemed by their w●rds and doings to be full ( at least ) as high as they , nor how they expressed it , nor how many strongly conceited by the act th●● requireth reordination of men ordained by presbyters , and by the number rejected who refused it , that the parliament had been of th●ir mind , and much more the ●●nv●cation called the church-repr●sentative ; especi●lly when they heard men call the old bishops and arch-bishops ( such as ●sher , downame , 〈◊〉 , &c. in i●eland , and g. abbot , rob. a●b●t , grindal , and many such in england ) puritans and presbyterians : and when p●● . h●l●● maketh arch bishop abbot . and the bishops and clergy in his days to ●e of one mind ( vilified by him ) and arch-bishop laud and his clergy after , of another : in this case i gave the name of the present diocesans , to those that thus claimed it , and pretended so confidently to the present possession of it ; but i thought not their claim just : and when i sometimes used the name of english di●cesans , for this sort who nullifie the parish churches and pastorship , it was but to notifie them that so claimed it , supposing i had oft sufficiently opened my sense , and usually added that they nullifie them not effectively , but quantum in se , and by their consequences . but i again now tell the reader , that i think the judgment of the church of england , considered as humanely constituted by publick professions , and by law , ( much less as divinely constituted ) is not to be measured or named from any innovators , or any that most confidently claim it , or think they are uppermost at the present , and thereby have that right ; but ( as divine ) by gods word , whose sufficiency we all profess ; and as humane , by the published church professions ; that is , the liturgy , the book of ordination , the 39 articles of religion , the apology of the church of england , the defence of that apology set in all churches , the book of h●milies , nowels catechism , the r●f●rmatio legum ec●les ▪ the canons , and the licenced books of the protestant bishops and doctors , such as arch-bp . cranmers , bp. h●●pers , arch-bp . ●arkers , arch-bp . grin●als , arch-bp . abbots , arch-bp . edward sandys , arch-bp . whitgift , bp. pilk●nton , bp. jewel , bp. ally , bp. babingt●n , bp. m●rt●n , ●p . hall , bp. davenant , bp. ●rideaux , bp. br●wn●ig , b. ●otter , bp. miles smith , bp. carl●on , bp bayly , bp. parry , bp. c●wper , and many more such , ( besides those in ir●land aforesaid ) : and such ●rs as dr. wh●taker , dr field , dr. crakenth●●pe , dr. sutlive , dr. mas●n , dr. vvhite , dr. ●i●y , dr. chaloner , dr. vvard , dr. vvillet , dr. holland ▪ and abundance more ; besides all other old licenced writers : i think that all these do fitlier notify and denominate the church of englands judgment , than the writings of one irish arch-bp . and dr. hammond , and dr. gunning ( since bp. ) and a few more such in the points wherein they differ from the rest , ( tho grotius and their chaplains be added to the number . ) and now i will add this further evidence in the conclusion , ( besides that as i said before ) the present laws put us to abjure alterations , and therefore sure they never thought that they so altered the government themselves , that even while they say that the parishes are no churches , but parcels of churches , and the priests are no bps. of the flock , most really acknowledg them the thing , that deny the name . and the argument from the definition is stronger than from the name . and here i will but name first , the scripture descriptions of a bp. and 2. dr. hammonds exposition of those texts . 3. and the matter of fact among us . the first part of the bps. office is teaching the flock . under this teaching part , 1. the bishops office is to preach to them , 1 pet. 5.2 , 3. feed the flock of god which is among you , taking the oversight ( or episcopacy ) thereof , &c. dr. hammond : the bps. of your several churches i exhort . — take care of your several churches , and govern them , &c. qust . whom doth the law require to do more in feeding and guiding the flock ? the incubment that preacheth daily , or the bp. that never seeth the most , nor ever preacheth to one flock of many ? who are they [ that are among the flock ] the incumbent that dwells with them , or the bp. that is a stranger to them ? 1 thes . 5.12 . we beseech you brethren to know them that labour among you , and are over you in the lord , and admonish you , and to esteem them very highly in love for their work sake , and be at peace among your selves . dr. hammond . pay your bps. as great a respect as is possible , for the pains they have taken among you . qust . who laboureth among them most in the several parishes , publickly and privately ? the bp. that never saw them , or the incumbent that layeth out all his study and time on them ? who are most among them ? who most admonisheth them ? what is meant by [ among themselves ? ] is it that lincoln shire , leicester-shire , northamton-shire , buckingham-shire , be at peace among themselves , from gainsborough to oxford-shire ? or is it not rather that neighbour christians that see each other , so live in peace ? 1 tim. 5.17 . the elders that rule well , are worthy of double honour ; especially they tha● labour in the word and doctrine . dr. hammond : let the bps. that have discharged that function well , receive for their reward twice as much as others have ; especially those that preach the gospel , to whom it was news , and continue to instruct congregatons of christians in setled churches . quest . on whom doth the law impose most preaching ? on bps. or on parish priests ? and who doth most of that work ? heb. 13. remember them who have the rule over you , who have spoken to you the word of god. dr. hammond : set before your eyes the bps. and governours , who have been in your church , and preached the gospel to you . quest . ask the parishes who those be ? 2 tim. 4.2 . i charge thee before god , and the lord jesus christ , who shall judg the qui●k and the dead at his appearing , and his kingdom , preach the word , be instant in season , out of season , reprove , rebuke , exhort , with all long suffering and d●●●rine . not only dr. hammond , but all that are for prelacy expound this of a bps office . quest . ask the people who most performs it . 2. the bps office is also to watch over all the flock , personally , by conference , instruction ▪ counsel , admonition , exhortation , reproof , comfort , as every one shall need saith bp. jer. tayl●r pref. to treat of rep. no man can give account of th●se that he knoweth not . acts 20.10 , 28 , 31. i taught you publickly , and from house to house . — take heed t● your selves , and to all the flock over which the holy ghost hath made you bps , to ●eed the church of god which he hath purchased with his own blood. — therefore watch , and remember that by the space of three years i ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears . dr. hammond . instructing both in the synagogues , and the private schools , and in your several houses whither i also came . — wherefore ye that are bps. or governors of the several churches . — look to your selves , and the churches committed to your trust , to rule and order all the faithful under you . quest . is this done more by the diocesans , or by the incumbents ? do diocesans teach from house to house , from southwark to christ-church , from n●wark to alesbury or tame ? who doth the law appoint to warn every one in the church , from house to house , and night and day , & c. ? col. 1.28 . whom we preach , warning every man , and teaching every man in all wisdom , that we may present every man perfect in christ jesus ; heb. 13.17 . obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , as those that must give account . dr. hamm●nd : obey those that are set to rule over your several churches , the bps. whose whole care is spent among you , as being to give account of your proficiency in the gospel . q●st . is it the diocesan or the incumbent that the law requireth to preach to , and warn every man , & c. ? and that watch for their souls as those that must give account ? is not the incumbent of this or that parish fitter to watch and give account of each soul , than the diocesan for a whole country , or many counties , who never saw them ? can he do as ignatius's bishops , that must take notice of all the church , even servants and maids ? 3. the bishops office is to be a visible example to all the flock , of humility , meekness , patience , holiness , charity and good works . heb. 13.7 . remember them who have the rule over you , who have spoken to you the word of god , whose faith follow , considering the end of their conversations . dr. hammond : set before your eyes the bishops — observe their manner of living . quest . vvho can observe his example whom he never saw nor know ? or who can make an unknown man his pattern ? do the fl●cks see more the incumbents example , or the diocesans ? it is their example that sak to them thword of god , that the apostle sets before them : and who be those ? perhaps it will be said , that fame may tell the di●cess of the example of their diocesan , tho they see him n●t . i answer , 1. but the text speaketh of those that preach to them . fame may as well tell us of the good works of any other bishop , as of the diocesan : many bishops in london live near us ; it may tell us of any other good mans life . what is this to the text ? 1 pet. 5.3 . neither as being lords over gods heritage , but being examples to the flock . dr. hammond : vvalking christianly and exemplary before them . q. vvhat ? before them that never knew them , nor could do ? doth the diocesan or the incumbent more walk as a known example before the parish flock , for their imitation ? 4. it is part of a bishops office as a general minister , not only to teach the church , but to preach to those that are yet no members of the church , matth 28.19 . go and disciple me all nations . 1 tim. 5.17 . they that 〈◊〉 in the word and doctrine . dr. hammond : to preach the gospel to whom it was n●ws . acts 26.17 , 18. to whom i send thee , to ●p●n their eyes , and turn them from darkness to light , and from the p●wer of satan unto god , &c. not that fixed pastors must wander to do this , as un●ixed missionaries ; but within their reach . hence dr. hammond noteth out of clemens r●m . that they are made bishops over the infidels that should after believe● : and bishop d●wname saith , that the city and territories are their diocesses , when the christians were but few ; and as dr. h. saith , but one congregation , whic● one bishop only with a deacon or two served : so that either a diocess was no church , or it was a diocesan church of heathens save that congregation . our great parishes , that have 70000 , or 60000 , or 40000 , or 20000 souls , have not the sixth part ( that i say not the tenth ) so many communicants . who is it that preacheth most for the conversion of the rest , atheists , sadduces , infidels , hereticks , bruitists , and impious ones ? is it the diocesan or the incumbent ? who doth the law most require it of ? 5. it is part of the boshops office to catechize or teach the novices that have need of milk , and are as children in danger of being tost up and down and carried to and fro with every wind of doctrine . see eph 4.14 , 15 , 16 ▪ heb. 5.11 , 12. with dr. hammonds paraphrase . quest . doth the law and church lay more of this on diocesans ▪ or parish pastors ? 6. it is the bishops work to defend the truth against gainsayers , and confute adversaries , and stop the mouths of hereticks , infidels , and other enemies ; as is confest by dr. hammond , on many texts to timothy and titus , as 2 tim. 2.24 , 25 , &c. not by force , but by evidence of truth . and doth not the law and church lay more of this on the incumbents , than the diocesans ( who are not u●iquitaries ) ? ii. the second part of the bps. office , is guidance , and officiating before the church in publick worship ; in subordination to christs priesthood . 1. by confessing sin , and to be the subintercessor , or the mouth of the church in publick prayer , thanksgiving , and praise to god. 2. in consecrating , and distributing , and giving in christs name , the sacrament of communion . 3. to bless the congregation in the name of the lord , &c. all these dr. hammond maketh the bps. office , and so doth the scripture , and so did justin martyr , tertullian , &c. citations in a confessed case would but be tedious . quest. and who doth this most in all the churches ? who confesseth sin , prayeth for mercy , praiseth god , administreth the lords supper , blesseth the people , &c. the bp ▪ to many hundred churches , or each incumbent to each church ? and on whom doth the law most impose it ? and what doth the diocesan in it , more than any one of the rest ? 2. dr hanmond , on acts 2. and acts 4.33 , 34 , 35. sheweth that it was the bps. part , to receive all the offerings of the communicants , and all the tythes and first fruits , &c. who doth this most ? the diocesan in all the parishes of his diocesse , or the incumbents ? 3. dr hammond , ( and many old canons before him ) tells us , that the bp. was out of the church flock , to take care of all the poor , orphans , widows , strangers ; deacons were herein but servants under them ▪ dr. hammond , on 1 cor 12.28 . the supreme trust and charge was reserved to the apostles and bps. of the church . but the poor will starve if the incumbent with his assistance do not more in this than the diocesan . 4. it is the bps. office to visit the sick . jam ▪ 5. call for the elders of the church , and let them pray over him , &c. dr. hammond , in v. 14. because there is no evidence , whereby these may appear to have been so early brought into the church ( that is subpresbyters ) and because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the plural doth as way conclude that th●re were m●re of these elders than one in each particular church , and because elders of the church was both in the scriptures style , and in the first writers the title of bps. and lastly , because the visiting of the sick is anciently mentioned as one branch of the office of bps. therefore it may very reasonably be resolved that the bps. of the church , one in each particular church , are here meant . quest . is it the diocesan ( perhaps 50 miles off ) that the sick must send for , or that the law and church impose this on , ( to visit the sick , and pray over them , &c. ) ? or is it the incumbents ? iii. but the great doubt is , who hath the power of government , and who actually governs , ( not by the sword ) but with the ministerial pastoral government ? and here it must still be remembred . 1. that this particular power of the keys or government , is only by the word of god opened and applied ; as bp. bilson hath proved , and is commonly confessed ; some call it perswasive , some directive , some doctrinial ; but it is not such meer direction or perswasion as any man may use to another ; but such as is the part of one commissioned to it as his office ; an authoritative perswasion , and a judicial decision , as by an intrusted steward of christ : but only on conscience , and on voluntiers , and not by any power to exercise force on body or purse . 2. that governing , and unjust restraining this power , is not taking it away from the pastor ; and laying penalties on men for exercising some part of that which christ hath given , doth but bind men to bear that penalty when the exercise is necessary . now let us consider wherein the governing power doth consist . 1. it primarily consisteth in judging who is capable of baptisme and so baptizing them . this is the first and great exercise of the keys , and that 〈◊〉 foro exteriore . to judge who shall be taken publ●ckly for a christian , and in christs name to invest him solemnly in the number of the faithful , delivering him a sealed pardon of all his sins , and a grant of right to grace and glory . can there be a higher exercise of the keys ? matth. 28.19 , 20. it is the apostles work [ disciple me all nations , baptizing them , &c. ] and dr. hamm●nd thinketh that in scripture-time there were no baptizing presbyters , but bishops ; and indeed it is so great a use of the keys , that this chiefly condemneth laymens and womens baptizing ; at least the trying the catechized , and judging of their capacities must needs be the prime great act of church-power , whatever be said of the execut●●n . now papists and protestants generally place this power in parochial incumbents , yea , and in all other ●resbyters : even those that convert countreys of infidels , and are under no particular bishop , must baptize and judg of the catechumens capacity for baptism ; and are parish incumbents denied this office ▪ power of the keys ? and is it the diocesan or they that use it by baptizing ? obj. the canon requireth them to baptize all infants brought according to law , and so not to be the judges . ans . you should say , and so command● them how to judge . the magistrate may command men how to do their office-work , and yet neither be the maker nor unmaker of the office , ( tho he mistake : ) if rulers misgovern , that 's their sin , but the office of pastors is still the same , and we must not misobey , but suffer , and as b●shop bilson saith , go on with our work as long as we can . 2. and to bid them do more than they would , is not to null their power of doing less . and to punish a man for his duty , is not to di●oblige him from it , till it truly disable him . 2. a second great exercise of the church keys , is ministerially as from christ to declare his laws ▪ and charge men to obey them , both the church together , and particular persons singly . as legislation is the first and great part of christs government [ before judicature ] so the ministerial declaring christs commands , and demanding obedience , is the great act of government . the same word therefore comprehendeth feeding and ruling , 1 pet 5.2 , 3. &c. matth. 24.45 , 46. who then is a faithful and wise servant , whom his lord hath made ruler over his houshold , to give them meat in due sea●●n ? it is ruling by seasonable feeding . 1 thes . 5.12 . to be over them , is exercised by labouring amongst them , and admonishing them , 1 tim. 5.17 . ruling well , is nothing greater than labouring in the word and d●ctrine , 1 tim. 3.2 . a bish●p must be apt to teach : dr. hammond , one that is able and ready to communicate to others the knowledg that he him●elf hath . heb. 13.7 , ●7 , 24. ruling the fl●ck is by teaching and watching over th●m . to be the greatest is to be most serviceable to all ; to be ruled by them , is to know them , to esteem them highly in love for their works sake , to obey gods word delivered by them , and their conduct in mutable circumstances , heb. 13.7 . 1 thes . 5.12 and to imitate their good examples , 1 pet. 5.3 . and what law forbids incumbents to promulgate christs commands , and charge men to obey them ? or to go to any negligent person of his flock with the same charge ? or to go to any drunkard , fornicator , railer , and to tell him from god of h●s sin and danger , and exhort and command him to repent and amend ? and who most doth this work among us ? 3. another part of government is to judg professing christians capable of sacramental communi●● , and admit them , and deliver it them as christs ministers , b● his com●●●si●● , an● from him ; and therein to renew their publick abso●ution , and the●r co●enant p●i●●ledg , and their delivered part in christ , and right to life : no●e dare d●●y that this is a high part of the power of the keys , and proper governme●t , to judg who is capable of church communion , and receive them , and deliver them from christ , the pledg of life . and all papists and protestants almost , judg this power essential to the priesthood , and common to all parochial incumbents : and the church of england ( as i said before ) , 1. delivereth it to them in ordination . 2. requireth them to catechize and cert●fie for such as shall be confi●med ; and methinks the diocesan here useth less of the judicial power than the incumbent , for he doth but lay his hands on them and say a prayer over such as come to him ; for no man can dream that he can examine all the people in his diocess so far as to judg whether they are fit for communion : therefore he is supposed but to execute the judgment of the certifying incumbent ( if he take all at a venture , without a certificate , or knowledg , or if the incumbent be unfaithful , i cannot help or excuse that ) . 3. they are required to keep away all that be not confirmed , or ready , and desirous of it . 4. they may hear any just accusation of the scandalous . 5. they may admonish him , ( if he will speak with them ) . 6. they may refuse him if obstinate and impenitent . 7. they may declare the reason why they do so , as christs ministers by his authority , and tell the church their duty to avoid the communion of such . 8. they may bind him over to answer his contumacy at the bar of god ; and what of this is denied by the church , to belong to the incumbents office ? and who else is capable of doing this in parishes that have multitudes of ungodly persons ? if all this should be made so difficult by the multitude and badness of delinquents , or by bad canons , or bad government of the church by diocesans , officials , &c. and thereby be almost all left undone , i cannot help that , nor excuse it ; but what i have said against such doing is too little : and if priests be so bad , that they will ( any where ) sooner scorn it than practice it , at the rate that it must cost them , i am as much against such priests as others are : but i will not therefore make the office of christ● ministers , the creature of man , and mutable at his will ▪ nor will i forsake faithful ministers for the sake of the perfidious ; no nor for their own tolerable faults or imperfections . and now consider seriously , 1. whether there be any essential part of the office of a pastor , denied by that which may justly be called the church of england , to the parish incumbents . 2. and whether incomparably more of it , even of the government of the flocks , by the k●ys of christs institution , be not by law and canon required , and in fact performed by the said incumbents , than by the diocesans . and whether any use it , if they do not . if it be alledged , that i have in my treatise of episcopacy , named many instances in which they are deprived of the exercise of the very essentials ; i still answer , that if any shall by misgoverning canons or practise lay penalties on them that will perform their office , these do their part to destroy it ; but their sin may consist with the true office that is hindred : if we cannot pray without penalty , we are yet bound to pray : and if any such penalties should prevail with any ministers to cast off so much of discipline as is indeed their duty , their office is so far destroyed as to its exercise : but it is not every ill council , canon , bishop or priest of old when they began to be corrupted , that changed and nullified the pastoral power and office as from christ . i have repeated things over and over here , because i would not be misunderstood , nor leave a snare behind me to mislead men . the sum again is , 1. the pastoral office in specie is instituted by christ and his spirit , therefore the essence of it is unchangeably fixed by him ; and no bishops or churches may change it , by pretending they may give presbyters as their servants what degree or kind of power they please ; or make the office another thing . ii. the said office in mutable accidents or circumstances may be altered by princes laws , or the several churches agreements , and thus far it is humane . of the divine sort was the apostolick and other extraordinary prophetick offices : and the ordinary presbytery , commonly called priesthood , and elders setled over particular churches , were episc●pi gregis ; bishops , over the flock . and of the humane sort is the presidency of one in every single church over the rest of the presbyters , who was the episcopus presbyterorum , a bishop over the presbyters of one single church as well as over the people : this was the old episcopacy of the first three centuries ; this is it which i say our diocesans have put down ; and we that would have them restored , and would have such a bishop and assistant , elders in every church , are by the heighth of impudency , said to be against bishops , because we would have them restored to each church ( tho not as essential to it , as hath been thought of old ) yet as a way of peace , to comply with ant●quity , and avoid singularity ; and they that put down many score or hundred bishops and instead of them would have but one , call themselves episcopal . iii. whether arch-bps . ( diocesans . ) as successors of the apostles in the ministerial care of many churches ( by the word and not the sword ) be of divine or human institution , i am in doubt . iv. the cogent power by the sword is only the magistrates ; and if diocesans appropriate this only , they are magistrates ; and thereby take none of our office from us . v. the ●ssence of the parish ministerial oversight being of god , de specie , and the accidents that are mutable from man , the existence of the office in individual persons , is not without consent of the pastors ; so that no man can be a pastor against or without his will ; ( nor yet without a capacity in qualifi●ati●n ; so that if you prove any person to be uncapabl● , or else to have truly disclaimed and renounced the essentials of his office : i am not about to perswade you , that such a man is a true pastor . vi. but then we must know , that indeed it is such an incapacity , or renunciation , and not a tollerable defect ; nor subscriptions and oaths , which by unseen consequences may seem to renounce it , when the man took them in a sense which renounced it not : for tho such a man may greatly sin by taking oaths or subscriptions in a forced sense , which plainly taken would infer worse , yet his sin is not a renunciation of the office , if he declare that he meant it in a better sence , and took it on such mistake ; for we must not for bare words against mens meaning , quibble or dispute our selves into unwarrantable separations out of christian communion , especially when it is specially necessary . vii . and if any lay-men , or men unauthorized will usurp the keys , or any councils will make hurtful canons , and hinder men in the work appointed by god , we must be faithful and patient , and god in due time will judg and decide all causes justly . viii . the office-power is essentially related to the work ; so far as parochial incumbents are allowed the work as of christ , they are acknowledged to be pastors and bishops of the flocks , tho the name were denied them ; and so far as the bishops office may be delegated to lay-men , or to clergy-men of another order ; so far it is humane , and not proper to them by gods institution . they therefore that say , all diocesans jurisdiction may be so delegated to them that are no bishops , but that the pastoral rectorship by word , sacraments and keys cannot be delegated to any men that are not of the same office ; do thereby say as much , as that the diocesan government is of men ( and may be changed by men ) but the pastoral incumbency is of christ , and cannot be changed . the lord that instituted it , protect it ; and save it from satans most dangerous assault , which is by getting his own servants into it by error , and malignity , and strife , and cruelty , to do his work as the ministers of righteousness , and as by christs authority , and in his name . london aug. 13. 1684. postscript aug. 25. 1684. he that gave me notice of this book which i answer , did withall send me a manuscript to be privately answered , containing the very same things , but somewhat enlarged : his displeasure against my former mention of his private writings to me , and the contents , made me confident that he would not have any thing published which i should answer to his last : by which i found my self in a notable strait : for if he at once privately sent me his reasons , and also in another book printed them , if i should answer his private papers ( which reason forbad me doing in my condition , for his use alone ) i should judg my self forestalled from answering the printed book , because the matter being the very same ( and 't is likely by the same man ) i should be supposed to have broken the laws of civility , to have answered his private papers . but ( having no amanuensis , or scribe to take any copy of his papers , or my own ) i thought it the best way to return his unanswered ( they being written for my use , which reading will as fully serve as answering them ) but supposing the printed papers must be answered , i inserted also an answer to the strength of all his additionals in the manuscript . and at last he giveth me some notice of his thoughts of publishing the manuscript , or a vindication of it . which falls well for the readers use , that i have answered that manuscript before it is published , without taking notice of it , and s● avoiding wordy altercations . the author professeth himself my great acquaintance . who he is , i know not ; but he seemeth to be a very rational sober man. god forbid that i should ever contribute ( unless duty do it accidentally ) to the grievance of such men . i doubt not but he speaketh as he thinketh . and i doubt i have given him occasions by some uncautelous words in my writings . i truly thank god and him , that i am called to review them , and to clear my sence before i die . and i adjure the tearing persecuting sect , to think no more strangely and odiously of our differences in this case , than of the sharp contention of paul and barnabas ; or that men should scramble if gold and pearls were scattered in the streets , where dogs and swine would never strive about them . gods servants would please him : we are all of weak understandings : the wisest best know their weakness : the rest are nearest the state of the fool , who rageth and is confident . it is impossible but offence must come , luke 17.1 . but wo , wo , wo , to any who will make canons so extreme hard for men to agree in as terms of their union and communion , and excommunicate all that say a word against any word , ceremony , circumstances or office of their train ; and when they have done , cry out against men for not agreeing to every syllable , which a thousand to one are uncapable of understanding , and the better men understand them , the more they dislike them . a short answer to the chief objections in a book entituled : a theological dialogue , &c. the chief matter of this book is already answered by the holy ghost , 1 cor. 1.10 . 1 cor. 3. rom. 16.16 , 17. eph. 4.4 . to the 17. phil. 2.1 , 2 , 3. 1 thes . 5.12 , 13. john 17.22 , 23 , 24. and 1 cor. 12. and acts 20.30 . the spirit and stile of it is answered in the third chapter of james throughout . i have nothing then to do but to answer the pretended argumentation of it : for the author shall not draw me from my defensive part , to play the part of a plaintif against others , or to wast my time in altercations , and spend many sheets to tell the world that another man hath not skill to speak sence , and that he seduceth others by ambiguous words , and by confusions . obj. 1. to prove us sinful for being members of the church of england , he saith pag. 15. [ is he not by communion in the sacarment of baptisme made a member ? page 13. is not baptisme ( according to the liturgy ) a symbol of incorporation into the church of england ? confirmation another ? receiving the lords supper another symbol ? &c. ans . 1. baptism as such incorporateth no man into any particular church , but only into the universal , as it did the eunuch , acts 8. 2. the ceremonies or circumstantials of baptism , only shew what men submit to , rather than to be unbaptized , and not what particular church they are of . 3. this objection would insinuate that all that are baptized in the publick manner in england , were thereby incorporated into an unlawful church , which they must by being rebaptized , or by open renunciation disclaim , and so that it is not lawful to communicate with any that were baptized in the parish church , till they have repented it , or are rebaptized , or penitent openly . and if you must have all in england renounce their baptism before you will take their communion for lawful , the same reason will hold against your communion with all the rest of the churches on earth . and when you cut off your self from all , saving a shred , are you a member of the undivided body of christ ? 4. if our baptism in england doth incorporate into their church ( which you suppose is no church , being a false church ) , doth not baptism into your church incorporate persons into yours ? and what then , if your schism prove a sin ? what if rebaptizing prove a sin ? what if the covenant descri●ed by your client , ( to obey none but christ , in matters belonging to worship ) prove a sin ? are they all guilty of all these , and such others ? obj. ii. all that are liable to a church excommunication when they have offended , are declared members of the church . but all communicants and native inhabitants are so . therefore the law hath excepted none . — how comes it to pass , that the church hath power of excommunicating any person , but by vertue of incorporation , which she hath by the same law ? he that is not in the church , how comes he to be cast out ? — is he not by communion in the sacrament of baptism made a member ? ans . 1. doth their esteeming you a member , prove that you are so ? 2. you know that they excommunicate papists , and atheists , who deride them for it and say , it 's a strange church that will cast us out , because they cannot compel us to come in . 3. if this be a good ▪ argument , that all are of their church that are excommunicate , then you are either safe from excommunication ; or of their church , whether you will or not : if to make good your argument , you will aver that no separatist , independent , presbyterian , anabaptist , or quaker , was ever ▪ excommunicate , or imprisoned as such , you will change the current of intelligence , and comfort many that can believe you , and teach them how to escape a prison for the time to come . but if not , you make your self and all these parties , incorporate members of the church of england , as well as me . 4. do you think a lay civilian by excommunicating , can prove or make a man a member of any church against his will ? then mens argument against parish churches , for want of consent , is void . they may be made such against their wills . 5. but tho few men d●sl●ke the lay-excommunicators and absolvers more than i do ( nor grudge more at the bishops and deans who use them , and let them put their names to the excommunications ; especially of the poor church-wardens for not swearing , &c. ) yet let us not render them causelesly ridiculou● . i imagine that they excommunicate not known papists , anabaptists , and such like , out of their church ( who they know were never in it ) but out of the universal church : if this be not their sense , let them give it you themselves , for i am not bound to be their interpreter . and yet to moderate our censures of them , i 'le tell you a wonder : within this hour i received a letter of credible intelligence , of a chancellor who hearing of a conventicle not presented by the church-wardens , and being told that they met to repeat the publick sermon , said , god forbid that they should be hindered . obj. iii. page 8. a church in a sense is a christian kingdom , that is , a royal nation under christ their king. but there is no such gospel-church in your sense ; for there was neither christian kingdom nor king in the ap●stl●s days . ans . the institution may be in the gospel before the existence : christian kings and kingdoms are neither unlawful , nor needless , because there were none then . the prophets not only foretel that nations shall come in to christ and serve him , but that all nations that do it not , shall perish . and christs commission to his apostles was , to go and disciple all nations ( as much as in them lay ) baptizing them . nations as such , were , first to be discipled , and then baptized , ( infants are part of nations ) . and matth. 23. christ would have gathered jerusalems children ( all the jewish nation ) into his church , as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings . and rom. 11. only their own unbelief broke them off from being a national church , ( including infants ) . and it is part of the saints triumph , that the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of the lord , and of his christ . if you will read mr. beverlys book , called the whole duty of nations , it will give you full proof of this . where hath the gospel extensively much prospered where princes and rulers were not christians ? the turks give liberty of religion . and yet the sometime famous greek churches , ( corinth , philippi , coloss , ephesus , laodicea , philadelphia , and more than all the west , are apostatized , or withered to a few ignorant vicious scandalous christians . obj. iv. 8. if such a confederation in lawful circumstantials , as well as integrals , will make a church , i know not why we may not have a catholick visible church organized , if this be a due acception of a church . ans . this is as much as to say , if the name church may be used equivocally ( as all words must ) of several sorts , then all those sorts may be the same . i deny it . if you dislike the use of the name , you have your liberty as a grammarian to forbear it . but sure the name and the thing are not all one , nor the controversies about them . 2. but we have a catholick visible church organized , as i have oft proved against the papists , viz. under one , christ the head , and his ministers as his subordinate officers . obj. v. page 3. if you touch a mans finger , you touch the man : we have communion with an integrum perpartes ; and with a genus by the species ; and with both by individuals : nay as every part of the scripture , one verse or sentence of it makes up sence ; so every part of the liturgy as in form and manner therein contrived , is liturgy ; and worship thereafter is according to the liturgy , tho it be but part of the w●rship . page 20. as for the falseness in integrals , it gives the denomination to the whole ; for an integral part is an essential part of the whole . much more there is to the same purpose , making him guilty of all that useth a part . ans . 1. you have the freedom of using words at your pleasure , but not imposing them on mankind ; when necessity hath taught the world to distinguish essential and integral parts , you have no authority to confound their language , by the quibble of calling integrals essential causes of the whole : a totum per aggregationem ▪ as a heap of sand , or a field of grass , is not constituted of a proper essentiating form , and so homogeneous matter aggregate is all the being it hath . and if you make contiguity an essential cause , or how else you will , you have liberty of speech : but we will not be cheated by it to believe that it causeth any more than totality or integrality , and the absence of it is a privation of no more . and all mens graces , obedience , and worship , are defective in point of integrality and degree , and i hope you will not say that they need no favour , or pardon , or amendment . 2. all human actions have their faults : must we therefore do nothing , or converse with no men ? england is one kingdom ; if there be one or many faults in its laws or officers , may we therefore obey none that are faultless ? the laws are the rule of national justice ; may a judg , justice , officer or subject use none of them , because some are faulty ? doth that make him guilty of all ? bonum est ex causis integris : the fault of a part may indeed denominate the whole faulty so far . but the whole law or liturgy may be called faulty for a part , and yet he that useth either , not be guilty of any of the bad part , for using the good . the law and liturgy are one thing , and the use is another : its faults are no further his , than he owneth them ; your bread or meat may be called bad , if part only be bad , and yet if you eat none but the good part , it will not hurt you . 2. but if it must be otherwise , no man may hear you , or joyn with your churches : and do you think ( as aforesaid ) that mr. faldo , and all his church at barnet , lived not in a sinful communion very many years , that omitted at least an integral part of publick worship , the singing of gods praise ? christ with his disciples sung a hymn after the sacrament . the jews church made it the chief part of their worship . james prescribeth it us in all our holy mirth , such as the lords day is appointed for , 1 cor. 14.26 . every one had a psalm , and with them no one had a psalm , tho his judgment was for it ; the question was , whether he should forsake them for refusing it : i thought not , because it was better that they had something that was good , than nothing . but your argument would not only unchurch them , but make all sinners that communicated with them : for omissions of great duties are faults , and greater faults than tolerable failings in performance : he that prayeth not at all , doth worse than he that prayeth by a book ; and he that preacheth or teacheth not at all , doth worse than he that readeth a sermon ; so that their total stated omission and opposition to singing , by your false rule , denominated them no worshippers of god , if the whole must be denominated from a part . how many private meetings in london , never sing a psalm for fear of being discovered ? yea , how many seldom read a chapter , but only preach and pray , and sometime administer the sacrament ? must we needs say therefore that they omit all worship ? vi. on such occasions i argued , that if we must not communicate with any parish church because of the faults of the liturgy , it will follow , that we must not communicate with any church on earth that hath as great faults ; and that by this we must renounce communion with all christs body on earth : all the armenians , nestorians , eutychians , copties , abassines , georgians , greeks , russians , papists , yea lutherans , have a more faulty liturgie , or manner of worship , than the english . yea the churches called calvinists have their liturgies and faults : and i instanced in switzerland , because as god hath of late most preserved their peace , so they are taken to be the honestest sort of protestants , that in poverty serve god with soundest doctrine , and least scandal of life , but yet have no proper discipline but the magistrates ? is it a sin to have confederacy or communion with their churches ? to this he plainly saith page 11. it is : that is , all that confederate with them , as churches , are guilty of their error , called erastian : for subjection t● such discipline is the condition of their communion . ans . subjection is an equivocal word : if it were by profession or subscription of consent it were indeed to be guilty of that error ( tho not by a fau●t of the part denominating the whole , to make their worship unlawful , or their churches none ) but if by subjection you mean but joyning in their churches as christian and protestant for doctrine and worship , notwithstanding the defect which they cannot help , yea which they disclaim , bare accusation will not prove this a sin ; but by this we see how much of christs church you are for separating from . 2. for my part i have oft published , that it is not the least part of my charge against popery , that they unchurch almost all the christian world save themselves : but yet they are about a 4th or 3d part of professed christians themselves ; and divers of them do not unchurch the greeks ; but to unchurch or forbid communion with all that are as faulty , as the helvetians and all other protestant churches that have liturgies or partial faults , is that which i dare not be guilty of : i think that to say , that a thousand parts to one of christs church , are none of his churches , is next to deposing him from his kingdom : much like as it would be to say , no part of london is the kings but amen corner , nor any part of england but barnet or brentford . 3. and is it not one of our just accusations of the papists , that they say all the protestant churches are no true churches , and the ministers no true pastors ; and that communion with them is unlawful ? and shall we now justifie them and say as they ( tho not on the same reason , but for a far smaller difference ) ? is this our running from popery ? 4. yea , is it not the great thing that we accuse the superconformists for ? that they make us to be no true ministers or churches ? and are we indeed of the same mind ? one side saith , we are no true ministers for want of bps. ordination , &c. another side saith , you are no true ministers for having communion with the bishops and churches , &c. vii . i mentioned the judgment and practise of the old nonconformists and presbyterians , not as a rule , but as a comparative example . to this he saith , p. 11. you and they might as well own the church of england in the form and constitution as it is established as the parish churches to be particular gospel churches , &c. — p. 12. to say you join with a quatenus , and own not the very constitution and standing of the church , with which you join in the sense the church asserts it , is the greatest equivocation in practice that is : the old nonconformists nor you are to be no presidents to us in this case — so far as the old nonconformists , and the old reforming conformists went forward with reformation to bring the church out of the wilderness , we honour them ; but when they turn back again , and entice the people so to do , we are afraid to tempt god in that manner — p. 14. those ●ld nonconformists that did so , are no presidents to 〈◊〉 ; if they halted and were lame , must we be so ? such communicants are not acceptable to any church , and i know what church would never admit them , were it not to punish and expose them and their profession , as ridiculous and inconsistent with its self : and as for french and dutch , what are they to us , &c. — p. 16 ▪ he calls mr. fenns joining in the liturgy with exception of some part [ the sul●en practice of a half-paced doting nonc●nformist . ans . first to the cause , and secondly to the persons . 1. to call any practice , equivocation , or by any ill name ▪ is no proof that it is so ; nor is here a word of true proof given us : i ask the considerate ; is it in the power of a law-maker , to make all worship and duty to god unlawful by commanding to do it for an unlawful end , or upon false principles ? what if a law said , all people shall worship god , not because the scripture commandeth it , but because the state commands it ? would this make it unlawful to worship god ? i would disown the principle , and go on . what if the law should say , the pastoral office is not of divine right , but humane , must the office therefore be renounced ? and why can such a law any more bind me to judg of church-constitutions by the lawmakers words , rather than by gods word ? suppose that the anabaptists say , that rebaptizing is the true way of church-gathering : is it a sin to communicate with them , if they will receive me when i profess the contrary . i am against the covenant which you defend , as making an independent church : is it therefore a sin to communicate with them , because it is not as constituted by that covenant ? what do parties more differ in of late , than forms , orders , modes and circumstances of church government ; and if they be of many contrary minds , were it twenty , there can be but one of them in the right : and is it unlawful to join with all the rest ? must we needs be sure which of these is in the right ? almost all the churches that i hear of in the world , have their agreed professions published ; the protestants are gathered in the corpus confessionum ; the english church principles and orders are expressed in the book of canons , the liturgy , ordination , the 39 articles , the homilies , the apology , &c. must every one stay from their churches , till he hath read and understood all these books , and be sure that there is no fault or error in them ? what if it be poor men or women that cannot buy all these books ? and what if they cannot read ? whom shall they get to read them all ? and how shall they have time to study them , or capacity to understand them , when we can hardly get them to learn a catechism and anderstand it ? you will say , that is their crime that make all these confessions and books : they will answer , but that 's none of our fault : we made them not , and yet must we not communicate with any church that maketh such ? the old separatists , called brownists , published their confession , and therein owned many parish churches in england , and communion with them : i recited their words in my reasons , &c. but you are gone beyond them : the new ▪ england churches printed their confession , and all there agreed not to it : the english independents published their principles and confessions : and the presbyterians and they agreed in the westminster synods confession , catechism and directory : is every poor man and woman bound to stay from all their churches , ( when for 14 years they had no other ) till they understand all these , and know that they are faultless ? or if there be any fault in any one of all these books , is every one guilty of them that cometh to the churches ? the anabaptists published their confession : the dutch have theirs : many churches agreed with them in the synod of dort. the french have theirs ; the saxons , the helvetians , geneva , the bohemians , the protestants in general had the augustane , and many more have theirs . reader , see with whom these writers will hold communion , who make it unlawful to join with any church that have any fault in their constitutions , or agreed doctrines or orders . let us rise upward , till we come to the apostles days : none of all these churches named , dare profess all their agreements and confession to be without fault , that ever i heard of , except the english , who bind ministers to assent and consent to all things commanded and prescribed in three books and excommunicate those that say their books or ceremonies and government hath any thing contrary to the word of god ; but no lay-man is bound to believe them ; wickliffe , and john h●s , the waldenses , and the bohemians confessions , are not faultless : of the papist , and the s●cinians , we will make no question ; the forenamed churches of greeks , russians , armenians , abassines , nestorians , jacobites , &c. are , alas , past question faulty : the general councils upward from that of trent , basil , constance , &c. to the six first , yea , the four first , which some equal to the four gospels , are far from ▪ being faultless in the judgment of these objectors , and of my self : the arrian and other heretical councils are past question ; even that of nice , the first and best , i suppose he and i think did not well in setling church-power as they did , and forbidding all kneeling on the lords days , in adoration , and other the like : the donatists and the novatians , called the puritans of those times , had faulty agreements ; were it but for bps. and arch-bps . ●e will think them so : this writer can name no one church on the face of the earth orthodox or heretical ( tho aerius called presbyters equal with bps. ) that was not for bishops over presbyters from the year 100 after christ , t●ll the reformation , that ever i could read of : yea , consider whether they were not in the apostles days , when jerome , who most depresseth this degree , saith , that there were such at alexandria chosen by the presbyters from the days of mark : and mark died long before john the apostle : but episcopacy is not all : not only epiphanius but all church history that speaketh of such matters , agreeth , that ( besides the croud of latter ceremonies ) there were certain ceremonies called the customes of the universal church , which all the known churches agreed in , ( even those that differ'd about easter-day , and other such ) that is , 1. cloathing the baptized in white garments . 2. giving them milk and hony to tast . 3. anointing them with oyl . 4. not kneeling in adoration on any lords day , or any other day between easter and whitsunday . there is no notice when these began , so ancient were they , nor of any one church or christian that refused them ; but they were commonly called the traditions apostolical , or customes of the universal church . now i agree with this author , that these things were indeed a deviation from the apostles practice , and ought not to have been thus used : but the question is , whether every christian was guilty of the fault that had communion with any of these churches ? and whether had he then lived , he should have separated from all the churches on earth ? by this you see , that this opinion must needs make men seekers , who say , that the church was in the wilderness , and lost all true ministry , ( and , say they , particular churches , and scripture ) after the first ( or at most the second ) century : and so that for fourteen hundred years christ had no visible kingdom on earth : and consequently , that we have no wiser answer to the papist [ where was your church before luther ] than to say that it was invisible ; that is , that we cannot prove that there was any such thing on earth ; and consequently , that we cannot prove that christ had any kingdom on earth , and was its king ; that is , whether there was any christ in actual church-administration ? and doth separating from the whole visible church-communion agree with the prophecies and precepts of union ? was this church like a grain of mustard seed in its growth ? was all the wonderful works of redemption wrought for no visible society after one or two hundred years , in which a few persecuted ones were visible ? is not this the next step ( and a temptation ) to utter infidelity ? if christ have now no visible church on earth , but the people called brownists or separatists , doth it answer the scripture description of him and his church ? and is it not exposing christianity to the scorn of infidels , so to say ? would not almost all rather turn papists , than believe this ? and be rather of their church , than of none . 2. but let us next speak of the persons . i may speak my thoughts without imposing on you . i think that the major vote is no rule to the minor , nor always is in the right . if a hundred men that understand not greek or hebrew , translate a text one way , and a good linguist another way , i will more suspect their judgment than his . and so in the like case . but if i hear a few odd persons condemn the judgment of the generality that are far better acquainted with matters of the same nature , [ as if school-boys that are but in their accidence , should oppose all the upper forms in expounding horace , or hesiod , or homer ] , which , think you , should i most suspect ? — i say again to you , compare the writings of bucer , peter martyr , calvin , beza , melancthon , chami●r , blondel , dailee , and a bundance such ; and also greenhams , perkins , dr. j●●n r●ignolds , cartwrights ▪ dods , hildershams , hieroms amesius's , payne● , r●l●e●ks , and many such , yea with such conformists as jewels , bp. downames , john downames , davenants , bp. halls , arch-bp . ushers , bp. rob. abbots , dr field● , dr. challoners , dr. airys , &c. i say , compare these with the theological writings , of mr. penry , mr. can , and all other called separat●sts or brownists in their times , and tell me whether these later did manifest more holy wisdom in heavenly things , more skill in all other points of divinity , than the former : if their writings ( giving mr. ainsworth his due honour in hebrew and piety ) were as far below the other , as the lower forms of school-boys are beneath the highest , which should we most suspect to have had the greater or the lesser light , specially when the lower condemn and cut off themselves from communion with all christs known churches on earth for thirteen hundread years . when mr. smith ( and lately a very good man here ) thought none fit to baptize him again , but baptized himself ; was not that singularity a just cause of suspicion ? yet i make not the old nonconformists your rule . viii . i argued also , from the common frailties of us all , that it will be unlawful to communicate with any church on earth , even with those of the objectors mind , if we are guilty of the sins in doctrine , worship and discipline , of all churches that we communicate with . i will aggravate none , nor render that odious which god accepteth : my work is to confute those that do so . but i say , that 1. we have all many errors ; and men use to put their errors into their prayers and preaching 2. do not men use to deliberate more , and study what to write , than what to preach ? and have men reason to be confident that our preaching will be more sounder than our writing ? this author exclaims against me , as popish , arminian , for justification by works , for merit , &c. may it not be expected that i preach as bad as i write ? and is it not then a sin to be my hearer ? can i think that he will not preach as ill as he writeth in this book ? and are all sinners therefore for hearing him ? i promise him that if i know of any parish minister that will usually preach with as much error , reflexion and gall as he here writeth , i will be none of that mans hearers , or usual communicants . but to this he saith , p. 19. we distinguish between the rule of worship , and the administration and performance : — 1. it is not sins of ordinary infirmity . 2. nor sins not foreknown , so as to prevent joining with them , but them that worship god by a false rule , &c. ans . 1. this is the great strength of all his book , that we sin by a false rule , but they sin only against a true rule ; but i think nothing is sin indeed , but that which is against a true rule , even gods word ; making and using a false rule , is therefore sin , because it is against the true rule . most hypocrites are supposed to own a true rule while they are false to it , and sin against it . to sin against knowledge , and an acknowledged rule , is an aggravation of the sin , and such shall be beaten with many stripes : paul opens it to the jews , rom. 2. at large , therefore this will not excuse our communion with such . 2. this reason crosseth the business of the opponent ; for whereas the greatest reason against communion with parish churches is the badness of the communicants , and ministers lives ; these are not the obeying of the law or canons , but disobeying them : the law , called the rule , bids no man swear rashly , lye , be drunk , unclean , slander , rail , &c. nay it commandeth the minister to deny the sacrament to such : ignorance , unbelief , hypocrisie , are not commanded , but forbidden by that rule : ministers break the rule , i● they preach error , or heresie , or against love and peace , and promote not godliness , and mens salvation , with all holy diligence , by doctrine and life ; so that no sins against this is cause of separation , if it be only using a false rule that is , just cause . 3. but what is the false rule ? the word rule maketh all this excuse and accusation of his a meer equivocation : in general , a rule is any thing to which we purposely conform our actions , that they may be right : of this there are divers sorts . 1. the primary rule is the absolute law of god , to which all mens actions should be conformed . 2. subord●nate humane rules : these are of divers sorts . 1. the obliging commands of authority . 1. of magistrates . 2. pastors . 3. parents and masters of families . 4. school-masters and tutors of youth , &c. 2. contracts or agreements of men for concord . 1. gods law is never a false rule , but an erring expositor may make the words the matter of a false rule by putting on them a false sense . 2. just subordinate rules are not false , justly used . 1. magistrates rule either by common laws , or temporary and particular mandates , both being obligatory to duty , and indeed but several sorts of laws , while they use but that authority which god gave them . laws or mandates are just rules . 2. pastors can make duty by ruling-authority for none but the flocks committed to them : they may command what god authorizeth them to command ; whether it be by word or writing , is all one : and whether you will call it a law or not , the name altereth not the case : tho indeed in the general notion , all is true law , which authoritatively by command maketh a subjects duty . it s a true rule when the ruler goeth not beyond his authority ▪ heb. 13.7 , 17 , 24. 1 thes . 5.12 , 17 , &c. 3. the same must be said of parents , masters , tutors , &c. 4. agreements or contracts are rules made for concord by the self-governing power that all men have over themselves : and they are just rules when justly used . 5. besides all these , most make a mans own reason , judgment or conscience , the immediate subordinate rule of his actions . indeed it is more fitly called the discerner of his rule and duty , as the eye is to the body : for it maketh not duty , but discerneth it made : but if any will call the understanding a rule to the will , instead of a guide , we may bear with the impropriety . all this is clear truth . now the question is , how any of these subordinate rules are just or false ? 1. two things god hath not only allowed , but commanded them all to do about religion . 1. to command subjects as gods officers to obey gods laws , and in just cases to punish the breakers of them , in matters within their jurisdiction . and to do this by laws , mandates , judgment and execution . 2. to make subordinate mandates or laws for determining such circumstances as god hath commanded them to determine , by the general law of governing or ruling , and of doing all to unity concord , edification , peace , order , and decency . these things christian-magistrates may do nationally . pastors to their flocks , masters to their families and scholars ; and equals ( pastors and people ) may make fit agreements where they are free : and these rules may be called false or true , in several degrees . 1. it 's gross falsood and usurpation , to set up an office forbidden of god , and false in its very nature . 2. it 's next in degree false , for men of an office of gods institution , to command things utterly out of their calling and jurisdiction , in which they have no power from god mediately or immediately . conscience binds none to formal obedience ( propter authoritatem imperantis ) to either of these ; tho material obedience , and non-resistance , may be duties . the lower degree , is when the office is of god , and the matter is in their power , and not only belonging ad alienum forum ; but they mis-determine it in the manner , not usurping anothers office , but doing their own amiss : tho herein conscience is not bound to obedience ; gratia materiae sub ratione indebiti modi ; yet if the matter be not forbidden of god , obedience may be a duty herein , sub ratione medii , necessary to several ends ; that is , to concord , to honour the governor , to avoid off●nce , and to avoid greater hurt to the church , others , or our selves . but if the thing commanded be forbidden of god , no man must do it . but divers things commanded unlawfully in the manner , may become duties by that command , because they be made thereby needful means of unity , peace , honour to rulers , &c. as aforesaid , which else would have been sin ( as to meet at an inconvenient time or place , to use a translation , metre , &c. less fit . ) now all these being subordinate rules , they bind only subordinately by virtue of gods supreme rule , who made them rulers ( and he is no ruler that can give no rule ) ; even as corporation by laws bind only by vertue of the soveraigns higher law. and tho this author would be the ruler of language so far , as to say that all sinful worship is not false worship , they that use words , as greater masters have long stated the sence , do know , that the falseness is the disconformity to gods supream rule , and that may be in all the degrees forementioned : and rules or worship are both false so far as they are disconform to the law of god. and now wherein is our rule , false and theirs true ? 1. we own no rule of direct immediate obedience to god , nor of any universal or unchangeable duty to god , but what his law ( of nature , or supernatural ) doth make us . we hold that no man hath power to alter gods word , to command any thing against it , nor any thing which god hath appropriated to himself , as to make new conditions of salvation , new sacraments , new laws , as gods , or new duties for themselves , necessary to salvation ; no , nor any thing but what gods own general law doth command or allow them to determine , being left by him undetermined , to their power and rule . we hold that if any ruler go contrary to , and beyond those rules of god , it is their sin , and not ours , and we openly disown it : and so do our rulers in general themselves most expresly in the books of articles , ordination , homilies , apology , &c. binding all ministers to the scripture for the rule of their preaching and living , only infallible , sufficient in all things necessary to salvation ; and that if councils , or any men err or disagree with scripture , they are not to be followed . we openly renounce all false rules , and canons ; but if for such sin against their own profession of scripture-sufficiency , we must renounce communion with all that are guilty , we scarce know the church on earth which we must not renounce . and the opponents in particular . 2. for let us try now whether you have no rule which you call false , as well as false or sinful practice . but i will first take in his fuller explication , left i mistake him . ix . page 37. i roundly assert against you , that tho every church of christ hath the liberty aad priviledge to act prudentially , or make prudential determinations concerning the present use of indifferent things pro hic & nunc , yet to make any standing or binding determination and laws for themselves or other , is altogether unlawful , as highly derogatory to the kingly office of christ , and robbing themselves or others of their granted priviledge , and so a forfeiture of their charter : and so all your by-standing laws and subordinate laws for worship which you talk of , are unwarrantable additions to the word of god. ans . 1. this indeed is round assreting ; but your word is no proof , and here is no better . contraily , 1. those whom christ maketh rulers of his church , and commandeth to do all things , not particularly determined by him , as shall conduce to peace , concord , order , decency , and edification , may rule accordingly by such determinations . but some such there are whom christ maketh rulers of his church &c. ergo , &c. maj. prob. matth. 24. who then is a faithful and wise servant , whom the lord hath made ruler over his houshold to give them meat in due season , &c. 1 thes . 5.12 . know them who are among you , and are over you in the lord , &c. 1 cor. 4.12 . let a man so account of us , as of the ministers of christ , and stewards of the mysteries of god , &c. heb. 13.7 , 17.24 . remember them who have the rule over you , &c. obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , as they that must give account , &c. salute all that have the rule over you , &c. 1 tim. 5.17 . the elders that rule well are worthy of double honour : 1 cor. 14.26 . let all things be done to edifying . 4. let all things be done decently and in order . 33. god is not the author of confusion , but of peace , as in all the churches of the saints . by all this , it is evident that church rulers there must be ; and such successors of the apostles in the ordinary parts of their office as christ will be with to the end of the world , matth. 28.20 . and also in what their rule consisteth . now to the question of imposing : ( i premise , that tho this usurper of a magistry in language will have imposing taken still in an ill sense ; i leave that to him , it is enough for me to tell him that i take it according to the prime signification [ to put a thing on others ] without respect to well or ill doing it . ) 1. i know not whether by every church , he intend a meer voting body of people and pastors by consent , or the pastors alone as the rulers of a voluntary people . 2. i know not whether he take [ prudential determinations ] as distinct from governing obligations , or not . 3. i know not whether by [ present use ] he mean it only for one present meeting , or for more , and for how many and how long : and [ by standing ] how long he meaneth . i grant to him that no man may make universal or unchangeable laws , but temporal and mutable , and only for his own subjects . but i maintain , 1. that pastors may by word or writing make binding commands or determinations to their flocks of the foresaid modes and circumstances of religion and worship . for 1. they are such as are necessary in genere , and the determination to this or that sort disjunctively necessary : somebody must determine them ( and that for more than the present meeting , even statedly ) : and it belongs to the rulers office to do it : none else is fit or hath any other power , than by contract . i have oft enough instanced in particulars . it is not meet that every meeting the people be put to vote where to meet next : and there is no certainty that they will agree ; but some be for one place , and some for another : an ordinary capacious place is necessary : it is the rulers office to appoint it . it 's no sin against christ for him to require them to come to the same place , from year to year , while it is fit . 2. the same i say for a commanding determination of the lecture-days , or times of meeting , which the pastor may prescribe statedly by his office , without the peoples votes . or if all such things were imposed by a major vote on the minor , their vote would be a governing rule to the minor part . 3. while praying with the hatt on , is by the custom of the country a sign of unreverence , the pastors ( or elders that rule well ) may command the flocks by their authority , ordinarily , and not at the present only , to be uncovered at prayer and sacrament in the assembly , without wronging christs power , unless obeying it be wronging it . the same i say of usual kneeling at prayer . 5. if the congregation be called to confess their faith , or renew their covenant with god , the rulers may command all that consent , to signifie it by such a sign , as standing , or lifting up the hand , or subscribing , &c. and they are bound to obey them . 6. i have oft enough instanced in translations , metres , tunes , utensils , ornaments , and many such like . obj. the pastors make no laws . ans . dally not with names : any thing is a law which ruling authority maketh duty : if writing it , maketh a law , they may write it : but a verbal-mandate is one species of a law : and imposeth and determineth , and obligeth to obedience ; and it is sin to disobey , because god commandeth them to obey , heb. 13.17 . and even by the 5th commandment . it doth as truly limit , and oblige when pastors command , as when magistrates do it , tho they force not by the sword. obj. but these are but natural circumstances , and belong no more to worship , than to any other things . ans . it 's a sad thought to me to think how many seem satisfied with such an answer as this . all substances have their accidents , quality , time , place , &c. but yet the accident of one substance is not the accident of another ; the quantity and quality of a man is not the quantity and quality of a toad , &c. when these accidents are adjoyned to worship , they be not accidents of other things . is speaking no part nor accident of worship , because speaking is used in common things ? kneeling is used in other cases : but kneeling in prayer to express reverence , is not common to other things . putting off the hat sheweth reverence to a prince : but to be uncovered at prayer or sacrament is the accident at least of that worship , and not of other things : metre and tunes belong to ballads : but the metre and tune of psalms doth not , but is appropriate to those psalms . time and place belong to all natural actions : but the time and place separated to gods worship is an accident only of that . it is not the natural specification of an act or circumstance , or the generical nature that we speak of ; but the individual accident or circumstance as appropriate to a religious work . is love to god no worship , because love is a natural act ? is praying no act of religion , because we may pray to men ? is eating and drinking no part of the sacrament , because we use them as natural acts for our daily sustenance ? is washing no part of baptism , because we wash at other times : thinking is a natural act , but holy thinking is more : were davids sorts of musick no part or accident of worship , because musick is natural or artificial ? it magnifieth these acts to be applied to worship , and it is a commendation of worship-ordinances that they are suited to nature , and advance and sanctifie it . now at last i come closer to my question : have you no church rulers among you ? no elders that rule well ? is it unlawful to communicate with you , if those elders by mandates which are obligatory to the flock do prescribe days , and hours , temples , or publick places for ordinary worship , and if they command you to use the new translation rather than the geneva , publickly , or prescribe the same metre and tunes , rather than your congregation shall sing , some one psalm , and some another : or if they command them to be uncovered at sacrament and prayer , or to kneel at prayer ? &c. if you take this power from the pastors , and will separate from them for such obliging laws or mandates , you do that very thing which you fiercely talk against ; you destroy or resist christs kingly government by his officers oh what is man ! what are the best of men ! what doth the church and world suffer by them ! the same men that cry up christs kingdom , call it rebellion against him to obey his officers : as if we must depose or disobey the king , unless we disobey all his judges , justices and officers . all the obligatory decisions that the apostles made about their love feasts , anointing the sick , the kiss of love , long hair , covering or uncovering , order of prophecying , and of collections , &c. were not standing laws to us ; nor done by uncommunicable power ; but were temporary laws , and local , and such as their successors , when fit , may make . if you have no such rulers in your churches , you should queston whether your churches have the true order of pastors , as well as you question the parish ministers : do they not want ruling power , as well as theirs ; specially if you deny the very power , and they be but hindred in the exercise . obj. but some may be forced to say , our pastors do nothing , but by the peoples consent . ans . they are their pastors by consent , and rule them as voluntary , and not by force : but their rule and precepts are never less obligatory on conscience by vertue of gods command to obey them : must they prescribe none of the things forementioned , till all have voted it , or consented ? they must command them to consent , and they sin if they disobey , tho they can force none to obey . object . but some may be driven to say , we allow such prescribing power to pastors , but not to magistrates . ans . 1. what power the kings of judah used in worship , david , solomon , asa , jehosaphet , hezekiah , josiah , i need not tell . 2. christ came not to put down kings , but to sanctifie their office : all power is given him : by him kings reign : the kingdoms of the world are his by right : rulers are his ministers for our good : they must punish evil doers , and promote well doing : he commands us to honour and obey them ; they are keepers of both tables : they may drive ministers to their duty , and punish them for mal-administration : tho they may usurp nothing proper to the pastoral office , nor forbid them any such thing , yet such circumstances as belong to the nation , or to many churches , and not to this or that in peculiar , the magistrates may determine : it is of great use , that all the approved churches in a nation , signifie their consent in the same confession of faith ▪ the same anniversary days of humiliation and thanksgiving ( as is done about the powder plot ) and the same translation of the scripture , if not also the same psalm books ; god strictly commandeth concord , and to serve him with one mind and mouth , and to avoid confusion , and division , and discord : what reason can any man give why christs officers appointed to rule by the sword , may not thus discharge their trust ? shall we sin if the law impose a translation , psalm book , or reverent gesture , unless we separate ? is commanded obedience become a sin ? and yet not if a pastor or a ruling majority of people injoin it , or unless we leave all to confusion ? x. here therefore i utterly renounce the opinion that shall hold that such things being lawful when uncommanded , become unlawful when commanded by such as in ministry , magistracy , or families , or schools , are rulers : yea , if the ruler misdo his work , the sin is his ; i must not separate from every kingdom , church , or family that is ill governed : nor am i discharged from obedience in lawful things by the addition of some unlawful commands that destroy not acceptable worship , and turn not our food to poyson : i tell those ministers that publickly charge this on nonconformists , that they must not charge any doctrine of seekers or anabaptists , or such separatists , to be the nonconformists doctrine : i know not one meer nonconformist of that mind : what we of this age thought of ep●scopacy , liturgy , and magistracy , all that would come in and own that cause openly with us , have told the world in our published proposals of 1660 and 1661 : to which we refer them that would know their minds . xi . but when i oft alledged the example of christ and the apostles , this objector and answerer saith , p. 19. we make not christ and his apostles hypocrites ; for we have proved , that christ never joined with false worship , so much as with his presence at the place of it , unless with this intent , to bear witn●ss against it ; nor did he ever advise his disciples so to d● : as for moses chair , it was then christs own institution , and he had th●n no other church or institution on earth . ans . it was cautelously done to pass by the instances of the apostles that neither separated , nor commanded one man to separate from all the faulty churches , rev. 2.3 . notwithstanding the woman jezab●●s doctrine , and that of the nicolaitans , which god hated , and the evil practices ; nor from the church of corinth , where were carnal schisms , defraudings , lawsuits before heathens , incest unlamented , sacrament disorders , even to excess of drink , disorder in church worship , &c. nor from any other faulty churches . meth●n●s th●y that are so strict against any additions in modes of worship , should not so much add or alter scripture , or accuse it of de●●ctiveness , as to suppose the apostles to have culpably communicated with such churches , as co●inth , coloss , ephesus , sardis , laodicea , smy●na , &c. yea and with the jews , who by falsifying the rules , called it unlawful to eat with the gentiles , or to eat what moses law fo●bad , and not to keep their days : pauls accomplishing of his vow in the t●mple , and becoming a jew to the jews , was fully contrary to the opponents d●ctrine . and as to christs practice ; we said before you , that he conformed not to any evil , nor should you but did he not send the lepers to a false ill-called corrupt sort of priests , to do by , and with them , what the law required ? did he not ord●narily joyn in the synagogues in their worsh●p ? could he have leave constantly to teach there , if he had there used to cry down their ordinary worship ? had the ceremonious pharisees no ill forms nor ceremonies in their worship ? again , i say , their long prayers which were the cloak of their oppression , were either ●xt●mporate , or forms of liturgy . if extemporate , then the worst of hypocrites may constantly use long extemporate prayers , and it had been no injury to the spirit in them , to have perswaded them to use christs form instead of them . if they were liturgies ▪ then christ did not separate from such ; no nor reprove them at all , when he reproveth the hypocritical abuse of them : yea , seemeth to commend them , while he nameth them , as a cloak to cover evil , which nothing is fit for , that is not good . obj. he had no oth●r church ? ans 1. then most in england m●y go to the parish churches , where they have no other church to go to . 2. but christ had twelve apostles , and 70 , or 72 other teachers , and many more disciples ; were these no church , nor matter for a church ? xii . obj. page 4. god hath not left it in our power to communicate with any society , when they make that the condition of my communion , which i am convinced of to be sin to me , that i question whether it be lawful or no , &c. ans . how oft have i answered this , without any reply ? 1. if they make your consent to any sin , the condition of your communion , you must avoid it : but if they put no sin on you , to be present when they sin , is a condition to all church communion , and to your own praying , who sin in all your self ; you before excepted sins of ordinary infirmity , as not warranting separation : and when did you ever prove that the composing and imposing of the liturgy , ( much more the obedient use of the lords-day part ) is not a sin of infirmity , as much as slandering it and the churches , and writing such books as yours ? accusing is not proving . 2. if your taking it for sin be true , you must forbear it : if you mistake it for sin , which is duty , ( per se or per accidens ) you sin against god , and truth , by your mistake , and by your omission . god bindeth you to alter your judgment ; and so he doth , if you take an indifferent thing for sin , tho here it is safest to forbear . an erring conscience is no lawmaker ( less then a magistrate ) , but a misconceiver , and doth , ligare non obligare . xiii . obj. but none of the things are indeed worship , which you say men may command ? ans . that man shall be none of my guide , that makes questions of bare names to seem to the people , as if they were about the matter named . [ they are such accidents of the worship , which god himself commandeth , as are done in the outward expression of reverence and honour to god , and the more decent and edifying performance of his own institutions . ] this is the description of them , ( kneeling , being uncovered , swearing with outward signs , singing in tunes , metre , &c. ) . agree to the thing , and call these worship or no worship , as you please . you say , false worship is no worship ; if so , it is no bad worship ; but all faulty worship is not null . xiv . as for his general talk of me , how much i have promoted popery , and being for justification by works , and merit , &c. i give him leave to ease his stomach without an answer , and all those to be deceived by him that will take his word , and not read mine ; especially , my treatise of imputed righteousness . page 9. he saith , when the scripture speaks of justification by faith : doth any sound divine or christians understand it of the act of believing , but that its the obj●ct of faith that justifieth ? ans . see how strictly these men stick to scripture , that will have it the sole law of circumstances , and yet can deny it , as expositors , at their pleasure ; when paul over and over so often saith , that we are justified by faith , and faith is imputed for righteousness ; and christ saith , thy faith hath saved thee . it is not faith that they mean , but christ . it is faith in christ . there is no faith , but the act or habit of believing , rom. 3.21 . the righteousness of god , which is by faith of jesus christ , on all that believe . 25. through faith in his blood . 26. the justifier of him which believeth in jesus : many ways such will be odiously perverted , if you put christ instead of faith ; we are justified by no meritorious cause , but christs righteousness : but that righteousness justifieth not infidels , nor any but qualified receivers ; and faith is that qualification . is not this true ? and is it not enough ? if you would preach or write censurious disputes , whether it be the physitian , or the medicine , or the patients taking it , that cureth him ; or the meat , or the giver , or the eating it , that feedeth men , take your course : i had rather answer that , and most of your books w●th groans and tears , than with disputing . xv. as for his threatning to open my faults as fast as i discover them . i may save him the labour , and lament them my self . two i will confess now , besides all heretofore . 1. i fear i did sometime by connivence , and by too oft preaching against the faults of the bishops about 1640 , encourage some that were set upon accusing and separating , over much . tho i ever disliked and opposed that spirit , and fore●●w what divisions and sins attended . 2. tho , when i took the league and cov●nant , it was not imposed , but offered to volunteers , ( and i never gave i● but to one , and kept the countrie from taking it ) ; yet seeing now , what i saw not then , i repent that i took it . ( tho being taken , i dare not say that it bindeth not as a secondary self-obligation to that which god bound me to before . ) my reasons are ; 1. because , as after imposed , no knowing man can believe that the thousands of ignorant people that took it , who never understood the controversies of prelacy , could take it in truth , judgment , and righteousness , and so must sin . 2. because it cut the nation in two parts , on pretence of union , and engaged us against such excellent persons , as vsher , davenant , and against the greatest half of the land , when we should have united on the terms of the b●ptismal covenant . 3. because , being before by god and our allegiance sufficiently ●lliged to the king , by a further vow of mens own making against his will , they entangled the consciences of the people about the meaning and the obligation of it ; some thinking it bound them not to him ; and other , that it bound them to fight for him , and yet to oppose the prelacy that he was for . and now the law for corporations binds men to declare that there is no ob●igation at all from that o●th ( either for the king , or against any sin ) . xvi . there are also more than one of my opponents , who tell me , that because i live in prosperity my self , and suffer not , therefore i am insensible of the case of suffer●rs , and add affliction to the afflicted , and have not due compassion on them . ans . if this be true , it is a great sin . but 1. why do the same men accuse me for perswading men to avoid sufferings , as they think , by ill means ? it is indeed to save men from suffering by mistake for that which was their duty , to the injury of others , and to reserve their patience for better uses , being like enough to have need of it all . 2. i thank god i am so far from being insensible of the sufferings of the church of christ throughout the world , that i may say with paul , rom. 9.1 . i have continual sorrow in my heart for the wars , blood , c●uelties exercised on them , and much more for their own sin . and sure all the wrath that is agai●st me for labouring to save this land from division , self-destroying and suffering , 1661. and since , might have been avoided , had i been so self-saving as the accusers feign me . 3. i thank god my suff●rings have been far less than i expected or deserved of god , and not worthy to be called sufferings in comparison of thousands in foreign lands . and i humbly thank the king that they have been no greater ; but if they had , all had been now almost at an end . i am not willing to name them , lest it seem to savour of impatience , but remembring pauls example to such accusers ( to the corinthians ) i will briefly say , 1. from 1639. to 1660. i suffered more assaults and oppositi●n than some of them , by divers penalties for divers duties against iniquity . 2. i think i was the first silenced since the bishops return . and the hot displeasure against me for my pac●ficatory labour 1660. and 1661. is not unknown . 3. enquire whether there be more virulent and voluminous accusations printed against me , or any one of them . 4 i have had no p●storal maintenance these 23 years , and no church to maintain me , nor any stipendary lecture ; and for about 15. years i received no gift of money from any , but one man , which i could not without incivility refuse . 5. when i went twice a day to their church at acton , i was sent to the common gaol ( accused for a sermon for meekness and obedience , and submission to government ) and when i built a chappel , it cost me about 20 l. to get a minister out of the prison ( that had formerly been imprisoned for the kings service ) for preaching but one sermon there , when i was twenty miles off . 6. all that i had , was distrained on , and taken from me , all my books , and the very bed i lay on , for preaching after ( though , bona fide , they had been on just considerations given , or made over to another , and were not mine , but the present use of them only reserved to me ) and this by many warrants , as convict by the oaths of i know not whom , nor when , nor could ever know my accuser or witness , nor was ever summoned to speak for my self , much less to examine the witnesses . 7. i have been put in city and countrey to remove my habitation about twelve times , and my person twenty , in the midst of my pains , to my great cost and trouble . 8. how many thousand pounds my conscience hath cost me in the loss of a bishoprick ( by the lord chancellor offered ) since 1661. besides all other losses and charges , i leave you to compute , and ask you which of you hath lost more ? tho i acknowledg with thankfulness to god that i never wanted food or raiment . 9. and while i am now writing for parochial churches and communion , and know no law of the land that i break , i am hated ; and while i keep my bed in pain , or my couch , there are new assaults which i think not fit to publish . 10. and all this is but as a flea-biting in comparison of the sufferings which i carry about me by continual pain or langour through age and many uncurable diseases : and under the expectations of death , how small a matter is it to me , whether i dye in a gaol for my duty to god , or in my hired house , out of which i have very few times gone these two years , but it hath been a prison to me . what difference but conceit and consent ? if our rulers think it for the interest of any cause or party that i dye in prison , i shall acknowledg gods will in the effect of theirs , and it shall not be in their power to make me suffer for any thing but my duty to god ( besides faults long ago pardoned , and common humane infirmities ) . and it is not mens calling duty by the name of the most odious sins , that depriveth martyrs of their reward with god. the false imputation of sin by men , was not the least part of the sufferings of christ and his apostles , and the martyrs in all ages . xvii . and because others as well as i , have need of such admonition , i will tell my brethren , that our chief work is ( the same with j●bs ) to frustrate the tempter , and see that in all this we sin not , nor charge god foolishly : and he that only triumpheth in suffering in conscience of his innocency , and doth not know that suffering hath its proper temptations , and studyeth not wisely how to escape them , will suffer more by himself than by all his enemies . i will therefore tell you what are the temptations here which i fear and watch against . 1. lest the injuries of men should destroy my due charity to them : tho its true that the setled study and labour of some , for factious or carnal ends , be to destroy christian love , and serious godliness , and the souls , bodies , and estates of the most innocent who they think stand in their way , ( and falsehood , hatred and destruction are the devils work and image ) and no man must extenuate such crimes , john 8.41 , 42. yet diabolisme is not to be imputed to all that men suffer by ; much less to our govornours , whom we must honour : paul himself persecuted in ignorance ; and christ said , they know not what they do ? much less must we blame others , if truly the cause be only in our selves . 2. much more must we watch against desires of revenge , or call for fire from heaven , or imitate any that injure us , by requiring evil with evil , but see that we forgive as we would be forgiven . if they be impenitent , and god forgive them not , their suffering will be heavy enough . 3. we must watch against blinding passions , that it carry us not into contrary extremes , that we may be far enough from sin ; and so lest we fall into sin on the other side . too few can keep to the line of truth ; most reel like drunkards from side to side . 4. we are much in danger of biassed study ; never studying impartially what may be said against us , and for our opposers , but only all that may be said for us against them . 5. men that have a good cause are too apt to betray and spoil it by an ill manner of defending it , by mixt errors , ill arguments or passions , to the hardening of the adversaries and afflictors . 6. we must take heed that we fear not suffering wrong , more than doing wrong . he that doth the wro●g is a far greater sufferer or loser , than he that is wronged . our study must be , that we neither think , wish , speak , or do any wrong to our adversaries and afflictors . 7. we must watch lest the great wickedness of any adversaries should be so much in our eye , as to tempt us to make light of our own sin , because it is not so great as theirs . 8. and we must watch lest the conscience of our good cause or innocency to man , should make us foget our many sins against god , for which he may permit men by injury to afflict us . 9. we must watch lest we judge of the cause by the person , and should take truth to be falshood , and good to be evil , because bad men or adversaries own it ; or lest we take falshood to be truth , and evil to be good , because good men hold it ; and lest in love or pity we justifie the s●n of any sufferers . 10 but we must specially take heed lest fleshly interest and love of r●ches , liberty or life , should bias and blind our judgments , to take any thing to be lawful which we think is necessary to our quietness and safety , and to use sinful means to avoid danger and sufferings . these are my studies , and i think them necessary to all . and the rather when ( it grieveth my heart to see , so ) many carryed by suffering so far from unity , charity , and moderation , that they even joyn with those whom they sharpliest accuse , ( tho by other reasons ) to do their very work , and to destroy that which they think they are promoting . for instance , 1. they blame the papists and such conformists for saying that the ministers of the reformed churches are no true ministers : and they say the same . 2. they blame them for saying their churches are no true churches . and they say the same . 3. they blame them for recusancy , and saying it is unlawful to communicate with them ; and they say the same . 4. they blame them that silence ministers , and forbid and hinder them from worshipping god. and they themselves disswade all the land from all publick church-worship , where none but with those that use the liturgy can be had . 5. they justly blame love-killing reproachful sermons . and they write love-killing reproachful books . 6. they justly blame false accusers of particular persons , and they ●●lsely accuse almost all the churches on earth , as no true churches . 7. they are justly for mutual forbearance , and against cruelty ; and they unjustly aggravate the faults of almost all church-worshippers on earth , as so odious that it must be separated from ; and in a sort excommunicate them 8. they fear popery is ready to take possession of the land and church , and they exhort all protestants to forsake all the publick churches , which are the garison of the protestant cause , that so the gates may be set open , and the adversaries may find the houses ready swept and garnished , or the garison emptied for their coming . 9. they are against the ejecting of the ministers 1662. and yet crying down a comprehension , they would not have them restored , unless it were on terms that will take in them also ( and who knoweth whom ? ) 10. yea , the very top of popery is to appropriate all power of church-government and worship to the clergy , and to make magistrates therein but the clergies executioners , saying they are only for civil government , for the body , but the pope and clergy only for religious government of the church , and for the souls . and some called by dividing names among us , say , that christ only and his ministers have power in such matter● , and that princes sin if they command but a translation , a reverent gesture , a church-ornament , and such circumstances ; and that it 's a sin to obey them . when i see that exasperation by afflicters hath cast some sufferers into such self-contradicting ways , i will set on my heart and judgment a double watch in sufferings and abuse . and now reader i again say , that tho i was dragg'd to this sort of work as against my will , i thank god ( and my sober sort of opponents ) for calling me to it , that before i dye i might explain my writings , and not by writing only against one extreme , leave them behind me as snares to tempt men to the other extreme . and i here leave my testimony again against all malignity that would charge these errors on the innocent for a cloak of hatred , and cruelty , and oppression , that i know not one meer nonconformist that holdeth any of these errors ; and i verily believe that the independents that i am acquainted with , are true servants of christ ; and many called anabaptists , sober , godly christians ; and that some called separatists retain christian charity , and meerly for fear of sinning , flye too far from others . and as for all the rest , it is not mens calling them all dissenters , nor their suffering together , that can make the innocent responsible for the faulty , who perhaps do more against their mistakes , than ever such accusers did ( to cure them ) . and i must tell the abaddons , that the opposition that hath been raised against them among those that i was acquainted with before 1641 , and 1642 , was caused chiefly by the badness of those that made it their trade to preach against strict and serious obedience to god , as puritanism , and hypocrisie , and made it the ladder of their aspiring ambition to make such odious , and to hunt with jealous severity those that used for mutual help in the ways of salvation , to pray together ( especially if they fasted ) or consulted how to obey gods law : justacting over the part of the bps that martin separated from , described by sulpitius severus , rendering all suspected of priscillianism that were more than others in reading the scripture , fasting and praying ) and clapping on the back with encouragement the drunkards and prophane ignorant rabble , who in every town were the haters of the godly conformists and nonconformists ; and making these the instruments of their malice , and praising them , and the multitude of ignorant , reading priests , as more worthy subjects , than men fearing god. ri. hooker in his preface describeth these ; and he that readeth his europae speculum , may know that it was no better conformists that his most beloved pup●l , sir edwin sandys was against , while he was one of the zealous parliamentarians . it 's true that many were very hot against bishop laud and the arminians , and against dr. heylin , and dr. pockington , for proving sunday no sabbath , and calling the table an altar , and the ministers , priests , and the sacrament a sacrifice . blame not men that had read of their principles and practice , how rome is a leech that must live on blood , and cannot stand without it , if they were afraid of coming thither again , or drawing too near it . upon my knowledg , the debauchery and malignity of many that hunted them , and would not let them stay at home in peace , and the terror of two hundred thousand murdered in ireland , was it that drove most that ever i knew into the parliaments army : and fear doth often drive men to seek for self-defence to that which seemeth next at hand . had those whom they feared been such as their functions obliged them to be , men of holiness , love and peace , they would have been less prejudiced against the rest ; they bore easily with dr. chappel , mr. may●en , and some other godly charitable men that were reputed arminians . i here adjoin it to my confessions : 1. that i thought worse of that called arminianism than i should have done : ( and have proved in my catholick theology , ( not yet writ against by any that i know of ) that the difference is not in any great and intolerable error on either side ) . 2. that the practice of them that prophaned the lords day , and the malignity of their abettors , made me too much offended at the books that called the lords day no sabbath , and the ministers , priests , and the table , an altar , and the sacrament , a sacrifice : for i now know that these allegorical names were usual with the best of the ancient churches without contradiction : and that the lords day is indeed never called the sabbath in the new testament ; and that the word sabbath in the bible signifieth a day of ceremonial rest , which was a jewish ceremony ; and that all such are by paul said to be put down , and that the lords day is a day of holy assemblies and rejoicing in spiritual , evangelical worship . ignorance and prejudice in these controversies prevailed , not from argument , but from the experience of the quality of too many that opposed them : they thought it a most improbable thing , that god should illuminate vicious , worldly haters of godliness , and desert those that most desired to please him . and of late times , what abundance have been driven from the publick churches , by those that rail at them when they come there , and would get the birds into their net by throwing stones and bawling at them ; and would get the fish to take the bait , by beating the waters . the bishop of worcesters silencing me , and preaching as he did , and the imprisonment of many of the people after , affected my old hearers with so much distast of that sort of men , that all the writings and perswasions i could use , would not reconcile them , nor scarce keep them from falling out with me for my perswasions : and now they have a worthy , pious , preaching bishop , a man of love and peace , and a good minister , they all crowd the church , and are like to fall in love with such bishops . and i must testifie , that with the generality of the nonconforming laity , i never found , but it was good preaching and good living that won their love : and they will honour and follow such men , whether bishops , conformists , or nonconformists . xv. since the writing of this , i understand that some timerous persons have been afraid to communicate in publick , or joyn with the liturgy , by hearing that some that have done it , have been so troubled in conscience , that they have fallen into despair , and a doleful state of trouble . to this i answer , 1. you shall never prove that i have perswaded any minister , to give christs body and blood as a drench to the unwilling , or to make the sacrament of love , the instrument of malice or cruelty , or a snare to strangle souls . it must be that offence must come , but wo to them by whom it cometh . the old church made men beg for church-communion ; if any withdraw from it , and excommunicate themselves , they did not send them to goal for their conversion , to force them to say , that they repent , and to force them to communion . 2. but i must say , that these ministers or people that have so ill taught these troubled souls ( by doctrine or example ) as to tempt them to take their duty ( or a lawful thing ) for so deadly a sin , are far from being guiltless of their trouble , distraction or destruction . if any should make them believe that it were such a dangerous thing to pray by a book , to sing davids psalms , to communicatie with presbyterians , not to be rebaptized , not to keep the saturday sabbath , &c. and then , when he hath affrighted one to make away himself in melancholy despair , should use this instance as an argument to affright away others also from their duty ; i should think that he were too blame : this were not by good words and fair speeches , but by bad words and deeds , to deceive the hearts of the simple , in causing divisions and offences . 3. i believe i have had with me in my time many scores that have had such melancholly terrors , without any such cause ; and must the matter of their trouble therefore be proved faulty ? i have known those that for many years could have no peace of mind , while they continued orthodox and religious ; and at last hearing irreligious sadduces , turned ●ilthy , and ranters , and were never under trouble more ( that could be perceived ) but boasted of their peace . who knoweth not that melancholly maketh many of the most sound and blameless persons , like spira , a weary of their lives , thorough desparation . 4. i can tell these objectors of eminent ancient godly men , that long forbore publick communion , and at last used it , and have had more comfort and edification , than ever they had before ; and the more for breaking through all the sharp censures of their former company , in obedience to their consciences herein : and when they have seen a scandalous person with them at the sacrament , have gone with humility , love , and tears , and told him of his sin and danger , and had such success as hath comforted them more than avoiding that communion ever did : yea , i know those that being threatned by violent pastors , that use dissenters with rigor , have humbly and submissively so pleaded with them from scripture and experience , against that spirit and way , as hath overcome them , and melted them into a more tender and peaceable mind and course . a postscript on a book of mr. j. f's . since the writing of all foregoing , i have received another book sent me by j.f. whether he will be angry if i expound this j. faldo , i cannot tell ; i read it over to see if there were any thing in it that should change my judgment : but i will not promise to do so by any more such . nor will i so much as tell the reader what my judgment said of it in the reading ; much less write down the answers which readily offered themselves to my understanding as i went on ; for it would but more provoke him , i see , and do the reader little good , unless by helping him to lament the churches case through the infirmities of such as i and he are ; and the more patiently to bear all our present sufferings , by considering how unable we are to agree what to chuse for our selves , if we had our wills , and how far we should be from desired concord . i will not write a book to contend on the question , whether mr. faldo or i be the wiser or better man : i am conscious of so much ignorance and badness , that if it may edifie the reader , let him think of me as ill , as mr. faldo and all such men would have him : if he have a good cause , i wish the reader may be of his mind : if not , i find not my self obliged to talk on against such writers any further , for his rescue ; nor do i think i can say any thing herein , which at his rate mr. faldo cannot answer . i only say , that he and such other have satisfied me , that the liturgy-vvorship in the common lords day office is comparatively purer than the vvorship of many is like to be , who oppose it . his counsel is good , to know what the vvorship is before i consent to it : i have tried what is in the liturgy ; i concurred with many better men , 1661 in telling the vvorld , how far we could approve or use it . i find in it much good , and in the ordinary lords day common service , no fault that should alienate me from conjunction with the church therein . to talk of faults in baptizing , burial , marrying , &c ▪ is to say nothing to this point ; i never saw any of these used since i joined with the church in the lords-day vvorship : but how to try mr. f. his vvorship before-hand , i know not he saith , that if we will be at the cost of it , we may have better worship . and tho he seem displeased for being called a consenter to my catholick communion , either he consented that the parish-church-worship should rather be used than none , or else ( which i suspect ▪ ) when i have read his book , i cannot understand so much as what he is for or against ; what he meaneth by a meeting of four , whether he take it for a church , i know not : i take it not for a church , that hath no minister or sacrament : and if he know of so many score , or hundred thousand nonconformable ministers as may guide all the people in england , as such churches of four , i do not : and if communion in the liturgy be simply unlawful , it is so to all the land. i think there are millions in the kings dominions , that can have no other church-worship than with the liturgy , at what rate soever they would purchase it . if his conceits of my self contradictions were as true as they are false , i will tell him other reasons of what he counteth unaccountable , than that i wrote one book in 1659 , and another in 1684. i am now 25 years elder than i was then ; and it s a shame to learn nothing in so many years : i am more above all worldly hopes than he is : i am past all capacity of them . i have less cause of fear than he : they will hardly confine me to a prison narrower than my bed and couch . my glass is almost run : if i be not more apprehensive of my speedy account , and it awe me not to own nothing but the truth , without dawbing with one extream or other , i am much to blame . and i have seen some more of the experience of both extremes ( tho alas i saw too much before ) . and after all , comparing all together , i leave posterity my thoughts . 1. that i had rather the church had a liturgy ( to make all foreknow what worship they meet for ) with free prayer also in its place , than to have either alone . 2. if they must be separated when the minister is of tryed soundness and ability ; i had rather have his free prayer alone . but for many others , i had rather have the liturgy alone . and for instance , mr. faldo hath oft told me , that his church at barnet ( as i twice said before ) not only omitted , but renounced or opposed all singing of psalms for many years ; that many of them were of such ill opinions , that he was put to much work to save them from being quakers ( and at what cost they can now have church-meetings when he hath left them , i know not ) . for mr. faldo to hold up such a church even to suffering , and to write against communion with the liturgy , where there are able godly ministers , is either erroneous partiality in him , or i am blind in my unwilling ignorance . to which i further add again , that i cannot expect that men preach sounder doctrine than they studiously write ; nor that they pray more soundly than they preach ; and if mr. faldo , and all such writers , so pray , and so preach , and so live , ( much more if also their churches have such maimed worship as aforesaid , and some of them unordained ministers , and many churches men of many contrary doctrines ) i take the common-prayer book worship and communion , to be much purer than theirs . the lord make our successors wiser , better , and more peaceable than we are . finis notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a27068-e15820 § 1. the protestant religion truely stated and justified by the late reverend mr. richard baxter ; prepared for the press some time before his death ; whereunto is added, by way of preface, some account of the learned author, by mr. danel williams and mr. matthew sylvester. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. 1692 approx. 262 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 114 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a26998 wing b1359 estc r1422 12626719 ocm 12626719 64665 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a26998) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 64665) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 344:4) the protestant religion truely stated and justified by the late reverend mr. richard baxter ; prepared for the press some time before his death ; whereunto is added, by way of preface, some account of the learned author, by mr. danel williams and mr. matthew sylvester. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. williams, daniel, 1643?-1716. sylvester, matthew, 1636 or 7-1708. [13], 185, [3] p. printed for john salusbury ..., london : 1692. an answer to: the touchstone of the reformed gospel / matthew kellison. first ed., edited by williams and sylvester. cf. nuc pre-1956. errata: p. 185. advertisements: p. [3] at end. reproduction of original in bodleian library. contents is lacking in filmed copy. pages 170-end photographed from union theological seminary library, new york copy and inserted at the end. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng kellison, matthew. -touchstone of the reformed gospel. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. protestantism -early works to 1800. 2005-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-02 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-02 ali jakobson sampled and proofread 2007-02 ali jakobson text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the protestant religion truely stated and justified : by the late reverend mr. richard baxter , prepared for the press some time before his death . whereunto is added , by way of preface , some account of the learned author : by mr. danel williams , and mr. matthew sylvester . london , printed for john salusbury at the rising sun over against the royal exchange in cornhill , 1692. to the reader . the author of the following tract is the reverend mr. baxter , now enjoying that glory he so conversed with in his mortal state . among his many excellencies , his love to god , to peace , and truth , was not the least eminent . the last rendred him averse to logomachies and confusion ; well knowing , how vain all eristick debates be , if the question be not truly and plainly stated . this book will give thee a specimen of that peculiar accuracy in this kind , as even determineth the controversie before an argument be produced . it is not to be concealed , that some complain of the multitude of his distinctions ; but such may consider , that the comprehensiveness of his mind accommodated things to the most subtil , as well as the less intelligent reader ▪ and provided against future errours , as well as the mistakes he attends to in the particular points before him . indeed he was a man born for more lasting service than one age ; yea , his name will be greatest , when impartial inquisitiveness after truth shall render men painful ; and sad experience of the mischief of narrow and dividing principles hath forced the confident to mutual allowances , and well studied determinations . but how unhappy was he ( or rather such as mistake him ) that he is oft charged with deserting this or that truth , because he understood it in a consistency with it self , and such other truths wherewith it was connected . as if ort hodoxie must be sacrificed when-ever a doctrine is made intelligible ; or the choice of terms more apt to confute the erroneous , less obnoxious to mistakes , and most expressive of digested thoughts , ought to alarm all such , who seem capable to know little more of truth than the sound of oft repeated phrases . nay , as more convincing what treatment any man must expect , who sets himself to heal a blind depraved world ; the clearest representation of his mind will not silence the ignorant from charging him with those errours which he most expresly disowns . three of the most material are denied and confuted by mr. baxter in this very treatise , viz. the moral freedom of the will of an unregenerate man , conditional election , and the merit of good works as opposed to , or coordinate with the righteousness of christ . neither must it be over-look'd , that it was his concern in this book above any other , to speak as near to these points as his judgment could admit ; and in other treatises he more largely declares against them . 1. of free-will , p. 87. he tells us , he denies that mans will in his unregenerate state is free from vitious inclination , or from the conduct of an erring intellect , or from the biass of sensuality , &c. 2. he denies that the will thus vitiated , will ever deliver it self without gods spirit and grace , it being rather inclined to grow worse . 3 as that degree of common grace , which is in the unregenerate , is but such as consisteth with the predominant reign of sin ; so the will of every unregenerate man in that pravity , is as a slave to its own vitious dispositions , errour , and temptations . who can say more against free-will ? obj. but he affirms the natural freedom of the will. answ . he doth so , and explains it , p. 84 , 85 , 86 , 91. and it is no more than that a sinner is a man still , tho' he be depraved ; and he is a liberal , and not a forced agent in what he acteth . obj. but he saith , p. 88. that by common grace a man may do more good and less evil than he doth . answ . it 's true , he saith so . but , p. 85. he distinguisheth between common and special grace , and denies that we can do that by common grace , which is proper to special grace : and saith , men have but just so much , and no more moral liberty , and power , as they have of gods grace to relieve their vitiated wills. see p. 91. 2. of conditional election , p. 99. he condemns the notion called scientia media : p. 100. he saith , god decreeth not mens salvation , or sanctification , meerly on foresight of our faith : but decreeth our faith it self . sin he permitteth , but faith he effecteth , and decreeth to effect : and p. 101. he shews , how god decreeth both the means and end . and tho' god justly denieth his grace to many that forfeit it by wilful resistance and contempt ; yet he takes not the forfeiture of the elect. yea he adds , that he is deceived , and wrongeth god , that feigneth him to send his son to redeem the world , and his word to call them , and his spirit to renew them ; and all this at random , not knowing whether it may not all be lost ; or leaving it chiefly to the free-will of them , whose wills are contrarily inclined and vitiated ; whether christ and all his preparations shall be lost : p. 102. he approveth the plain christian who holds that our destruction is of our selves , but our help and salvation of god ; and god is the first and chief cause of all good , and men and devils of all evil . obj. but he will not say , that god hath by his will and decree ordained from eternity that men shall sin , or will and chuse evil , p. 100 , & 101. god doth not decree that men shall sin , that they may be damned ; for sin is no work of god , &c. answ . but yet he saith , p. 100. that , 1. god decreeth who shall de damned for sin . 2. that he foresaw mens sins , not as an idle spectator , but a willing suspender of his own acts , so far as to leave sinners to their self-determining wills. reader , if thou art a man of thought , thou seest mr. baxter is clear for absolute election , tho' he did not think it necessary for the vindication thereof to judge , that god absolutely decreed men to sin , that he might damn them : it 's enough , that it is from gods sovereign will , that many are not elected ; it would be an ease to the damned , that they could justly say , god decreed us to all our sins , that he might bring us under all this punishment , a non-election to efficacious grace , and a positive decree to damn such for sin , which themselves would choose , best suited with his conceptions of gods goodness , truth , and purity . 3. of the merit of good works : note , reader , that he is not fond of the word merit , but his adversary leads him to the use of it , as thou mayst see p. 96. but let us hear what his sence is of this point : p. 119. all saints are saved by the full sufficient merits of christ , and have none at all of their own , unless the amiableness of grace freely given them , be called their merit ; and , p. 95. we do with paul renounce all works of our own , that are thought to make the reward to be of debt , and not of grace ; and that are set in the least opposition , or competition with christs merits , or in any place , save commanded subordination to him : nay , he says he firmly holds , that works done with a conceit of obliging god by merit in commutative justice , or as conceited sufficient without a saviour , and the pardon of their failings , do more further their damnation , than salvation . yea , p. 97. none but christ merited of strict distributive justice , according to the law of innocency , nor by any works that will save from the charge of sin , and desert of death . and that thou mayest know what he ascribes to our graces , holiness , or works : he tells us , p. 119. we mean by merit but the moral aptitude for the reward of a free benefactor , who also is rector , when the ordering of a free gift suspended on official conditions , is sapientially made a means of procuring obedience . this one clause , if understood ( and he is a bold traducer of so great a man , that cannot understand words so plain ) will acquit mr. b. and inform thee of the place of all gospel conditions . 1. all gospel-blessings are the free gifts of christ as benefactor , they have their being without any regard to what we do , therefore nothing in man is a jot of the righteousness or merit for which they are bestowed . 2. christ is our rector or governor , he will rule us as well as be beneficent to us . 3. as a means to incline us to comply with him as rector , he suspends these blessings on terms of what he makes our duty ; and wisely orders them as motives to our obedience . 4. any act of our obedience is no more than a conformity to that order of his , and doth not hinder all we receive from him to be of free gift . obj. but he saith , that good works are necessary to salvation . answ . he doth so , and how few deny it ? but , 1. not if a man dye as soon as he be converted ; but if he have time , p. 94. 2. their rewardableness is by gods free grace , and promise , for the sake of christs meritorious righteousness , sacrifice , and intercession ; their imperfection being pardoned , and their holiness amiable through him : these are his words , p. 76. 3. he saith ; not without or as a supplement to the sacrifice , merits , and free grace of christ our saviour , and faith in him , p. 93 , 75. and we give our selves to christ , as our prophet , priest , and king , to be saved by his merits , p. 94.4 . he saith , our best works will not save a man from the charge of sin , and desert of death , p. 97. 5. he denies that external obedience is necessary to our admission into a justified state , as he shews in the thief on the cross . and when he saith , we are justified by our faith , godliness , and works ; justification is not taken by him for the pardon of sin , which he ascribes wholly to the merits of christ ; but he takes justification there for our acquittance against the accusation that we are infidels , ungodly , and hypocrites . and saith , that against the charge , that we are sinners , deserving hell , we are justified by christ believed in , p. 94. his meaning is plainly this , christ alone by his merits forgives our sins , and purchased eternal life for us . but seeing that christ hath promised to forgive none but the penitent believer , and declared he will destroy all impenitent , unbelieving , ungodly sinners : now he thinks , that we must be truly acquitted , that we are not such , or we shall not be saved by christ : yea , he thinks , that when god justifies a man for christs merits , he doth also declare a man to be a true believer ; because he will justifie no other , and will justifie all such ; and when god admits a man into glory , he doth even thereby adjudge him a believing , penitent , holy , and upright man ; and free from the charge of being an infidel , hypocritical , unholy enemy ; against whom the gospel denounceth vengeance and bars relief . let these things be weighed , and none will wonder that he should say on his sick bed , no works , i will leave out works , if he grant me the other : and truly , in health none spake more humbly of his own works than he used to do . but because some confident weak persons have inferred from that passage , that he changed his principles when he came to dye ; we shall inform thee , that after that passage was utter'd by him , even the night before his death , mr. baxter was asked , whether he was of the same sentiments , as formerly , about justification ? he answered , that he had told the world sufficiently his thoughts about it by several writings , and otherwise ; and thither he referr'd them . and after a little pause , with his eyes lifted up to heaven , he cryed , lord , pity , pity , pity the ignorance of this poor city . and in the time of his sickness he declared to us and others , that his thoughts in these things were the same as formerly . our regards to mr. b. force the publication of what we here insert ; tho' we would not be judged so happy , as to arrive at his light , to lead us to a full agreement with all his sentiments . as to this book , we wish there be not still great need of such helps against popery ; and we are assured it will give more light than some greater volumes on this subject : that god may render it useful , shall be the prayer of thy servants in the gospel , daniel williams . matthew sylvester . protestant religion truly stated , and justified , &c. the deceiver calleth his book the touchstone of the reformed gospel , as if he owned a gospel distinct from that of the reformed church . and he undertakes to name fifty two points , which the protestants affirm , but tells you not where , nor proveth his affirmation , but you must believe him as a touchstone of truth . dec. the first protestant affirmation feigned , is , that there is not in the church one , and that an infallible rule for understanding the holy scripture , and conserving of vnity in matters of faith. answ . a meer lye , if he mean that this is any part of protestant doctrine ; but he may find as crude confused words , in some ignorant person that is called a protestant . the reformed catholicks hold , that there is in the church one , and that an infallible rule for understanding the holy scripture , and conserving of vnity in matters of faith. ] and that rule is , [ the evidence of its own meaning as inherent in its self , discernible or intelligible by men prepared and instructed , by competent teaching and study , and the necessary help of gods grace and spirit . ] this is that rule . but the reformed believe not 1. that there is any rule by which ignorant , prejudiced , heretical , wilfully blind , wicked , uncapable men can understand such scripture , as they are hereby undisposed to understand , unless by a great change made on themselves . nor that any prince can make a statute , which on man can misunderstand , abuse or violate . 2. nor that men can understand it without teaching , and that sound teaching , nor by hearkening to erroneous deceivers . 3. nor that the slothfull , that will not meditate on it , can understand it , tho' they have the soundest teachers . 4. nor that novices can understand as much in a short time and small study , as aged long exercised students . 5. nor that wicked proud men , that forfeit gods help , can savingly understand it without his grace and spirit . 6. nor that any man , how holy soever , perfectly understandeth every word in the scriptures . 7. nor that a person may not be fallible , and deceived , that yet knoweth which is the infallible rule : it maketh not all infallible that know it . 8. nor that any church , or any number of christians on earth have such a vnity as consisteth in perfect knowledge and agreement in all matters of faith , that is , of scripture-record from god. 9. nor that god hath tyed this infallible regulation to the bishop of rome , or made him this rule ; seeing no such word of god is extant , and general councils have condemned popes of heresie , infidelity , ignorance , and most brutish lust and wickedness . 10. nor that the judgment of the major part of christians or bishops is the infallible rule ; for 1. the papal part are but a third part : and they will hardly believe that the other two or three parts ( abissines , egyptians , syrians , armenians , georgians , circassians , greeks , muscovites , protestants ) are the infallible rule . 2. and if they met in an equal council , they that are most out of the council , would be the most in it . and ephes . 2. and many others now condemned , have had the major part . and chrysostom that thought that [ few bishops or priests were saved , ] thought not the greater number to be the infallible rule . 11. and pope and councils agreeing are not that infallible rule ; for two fallibles makes not one infallible , nor two knaves one honest man. popes and councils have oft condemned one another ; yea , they have oft agreed in evil , as did that at laterane the 4th . under innocent the 3d. that decreed the deposition of princes , that exterminate not all that renounce not all senses and humanity ; for those that have led into the churches of the west all the horrid errors of rome , to pretend yet that they are the infallible rule of understanding scripture , is impudency quite beyond that of satan himself . 12. if this deceiver hold what is contrary to his accused protestant opinion , he must condemn the church of rome , that agreeth not of the sense of a thousand texts of scripture , horseloads of commentators , and cartloads of school-contenders , contradicting one another : and he that will say that all revealed in scripture is not matter of faith , reproacheth god , as revealing that which is not to be believed . all matters of faith are not essential to christianity , but some are only for the perfection of it : all is matter of faith that we are bound to believe as divine revelation . all the scripture is such , thô the ignorant must have time and help to understand it , and explicitely receive it . the popes themselves ( e. g. sixtus quintus , and clem. 8. ) have differed in many hundred texts about the very latine translation . many hundred volumes of controversies among them , tell us how far they are from ending controversies , and agreeing in all matters of faith : but in so much as is necessary to salvation , all serious believing protestants , or reformed catholicks , are agreed . now , to trouble the reader with the proof of any of these twelve particulars , would be but to abuse time and him ; as to prove that no man is perfect , and he that saith he hath no sin , is a lyar : and to prove that the grand deceivers of the church are not infallible , and that gods word is not unevident and unintelligible , and that such villains as their own councils and historians say many popes were , speaks not more intelligibly and wisely than god ; and that the volumes of canons and priests writings are not of more evident meaning than gods word ; these need proof to none but those that are uncapable of it . what rule is there for the infallible understanding the sence of all our statute laws ? none but what i mentioned . the intelligible evidence in the words , ( what else are words used for ) to men duely instructed and studyed . the judges govern by deciding particular causes by the law , but are not an infallible rule for all men to understand the true sence of the law by , ( while judges and parliaments differ from each other , as popes and councils did . ) the texts cited by the deceiver , are so vilely abused , as if he purposed but to make sport by taking gods word in vain . point 2. accused , [ that in matters of faith we must not rely on the judgment of the church , and of her pastors , but only on the written word . ans . the deceiver would cheat the ignorant by confusion ; and belying the reformed catholicks : for , 1. it 's false , that the reformed hold any of this undistinguishing assertion . they distinguish between humane faith and divine . ( and i hope , god and man may be distinguished . ) they say that it must be a divine faith ( that is , the belief of gods word for the infallible veracity of god ) that must save us , and not the belief of man alone : but that a humane faith is needful in subserviency to a divine . god hath appointed humane teachers to the flocks , and oportet discentem credere ; he will never learn , that will believe nothing on his teachers credit . but he must believe man but as man , an imperfect , fallible creature , yet as like to know more than he that chooseth him for his teacher ; and that which man is to teach us , is to see the evidence of gods own word , that we may believe it for that evidence , as our teachers themselves must do . for if the teachers do but believe one another , and not god , ( or god only for man's authority , ) this is not religion , nor divne faith , but humane , such as they had that believed pythagoras , plato , mahomet , &c. if boys learn of their school-master to understand the greek or latin testament , and believe them as to sence , this is not divine faith , but a help towards it . the word of god is infallible : and by the help of fallible men , ( such as disagreeing commentators be , ) we are furthered for understanding it . but false bloody usurpers are not the likest to teach us the truth , nor fittest to be trusted . his citations of scriptures , ( to mistated controversies , ) are so putidly impertinent , that i am ashamed to detect them by words , which every man may do . the third accused point . that the scriptures are easy to be understood , and therefore none are to be restrained from reading them . ans . meer cheat to the ignorant , by confusion and falshood . 1. we and all papists with us agree , ( the more is the guilt of the deceivers fraud , ) that some of the scripture is easy to be understood , and is actually understood by all true christians , even all that is essentsal to christianity , and necessary to salvation . bellarmine , castrus , and many others , tell us , that for all that , the scripture is plain and sufficient : yea , so it is , in many thousand particular texts : if this be not so , let this man tell us if he can , how it cometh to pass , that papists , greeks , and protestant commentators agree of the meaning of most of the scripture , ( perhaps of nineteen texts in twenty , ) if it be not plain . but do protestants say , that there is nothing in the scripture hard to be understood ? the father of lyes will scarce affirm this of them , lest their commentaries and controversies shame him . 2. but what ? must the people be forbidden to read gods word , because some passages are dark ? why not also forbidden to read statutes , canons , fathers , jesuits , fryars , and the loads of papists controversies ? is there nothing hard in all these volumes ? what not in all the canons ? in all chrysostom , austin , cyril , & c ? in all lombard , aquinas , bonaventure , scotus , ockam , cajetane , and all the tribe ? in all suarez , vasquez , huctado , albictine , & c ? in all cajacius , and his tribe ? why are not these forbidden ? do but rub your foreheads , and tell me , 1. whether the law was not darker than the gospel ? and yet god charged them , deut. 6. and 11. to teach the words to their children , and that lying down , and rising up , at home and abroad ; and to write them on ▪ the posts of their houses , and their gates : and every blessed man , ( psal . 1. ) was to delight in the law of the lord , and meditate in it day and night ? read psal . 119. 2. whether christ did not preach the words recorded in the gospel to the unlearned common people ; and peter and paul , and all the apostles , to all the vulgar jews and gentiles ? 3. whether they writ not their recorded epistles to the vulgar , even to all the churches ? 4. whether it is not gods word that we must all be ruled and judged by , and is the charter of our right to heaven ? and should we be forbid to read it ? 5. whether hierom , chrysostom , austin , and all the fathers , do not press men and women of all ranks , to read or learn , and study the scriptures ? 6. whether he be not like antichrist , that will forbid men to read that , which god sent his son from heaven to preach , and christ appointed apostles , pastors , and teachers , to communicate to all the world ? 7. whether the prince of darkness and pride himself , would not be ashamed openly to say , i have so much skill to speak intelligibly , and god so little , that you must read my books , and not read his ? and whether popes and priests volumes are not as unskilfully written , as gods , and as like to draw men to heresie and sin ? 8. whether he that thus condemneth god and his law , and extolleth man's , be like to make good his accusation at god's barr ? alas ! must such things as these be disputed by men that would be our infallible rule ? 9. either the knowledge of god's word is needful , or not . if not , why did god write part of it himself ? and send his son to preach it ? and his spirit in his prophets and apostles to write and record it ? are blind worms fit to accuse god of folly , and needless work ? can men obey god's law that know it not ? but if the knowledge of it be needful to our obedience and salvation , ask common reason , whether the difficulties should not rather oblige us to read and study it so much the more , ●till we understand it , rather than not to read it at all ? do their ductile followers that read it not , understand it better than those that study it day and night ? the less we know of needless things , the better and quieter we are : if god's law and gospel be such , what a god and governour have we ! can heathens and turks blaspheme him more , than to take him for so foolish a governour of the world , as to make a stir by his son from heaven , and by angels and prophets , to give them so needless , yea , pernicious a law and gospel , as that men must be kept from reading it , lest it poyson them with heresie ? 10. is it not essential to him that relatively we take for our god , to be the governour of the world , and to be our saviour , and the holy ghost to deliver and seal the gospel as glad tidings to all nations ? and is it not by his law that god governeth , and by his gospel that christ saveth , and the holy ghost doth illuminate and sanctifie ? and doth not that man or clergy then put down god the father , son and holy ghost , and set up themselves in the stead , who forbid the reading of god's law and gospel , and command the knowledge and observance of their own , canons and dictates instead of them , as more intelligible and safe ? and is not this ( as robert grosthead told innocent 4. ) next the sin of lucifer and antichrist , or rather plain antichristianism it self ? 11. is the stage manner of massing liker to make the people understand god's law and gospel , ( by multitudes of gestures , motions , crossings , ceremonies , that need long expositions , that overwhelm the strongest memories , ) than the reading and study of the plain and full words of god in scripture ? 12. did this deceiver ever hear protestants say , that the apocalypse , and daniel , and ezekiel , and the canticles , and the chronologies of scripture , are all easy to be understood ? for if he have heard such a fool , did he ever read this in the confessions of any church ? do not their commentaries tell the difficulty ? and ask this man or his fellow creature , whether the infallible pope , or councils , have overcome all these difficulties to the papists , and made all this easy to them ? or do not their valuminous disagreeing commentaries , and controversies , shew that they are still as hard to them as to us . 13. and ask them whether pope , or council , have ever yet written an infallible commentary on the bible , or all such difficult texts ? if not , is it because they cannot , or because they will not ? and what the better then is their church for their feigned skill and power , infallibly to decide difficult scripture controversies ? what can be more shameless than this pretence , in men that will not do it , nor ever did ? 14. and if still they tell you ; that the people were always bound to believe and obey the churches rites , without dispute or contradiction ; ask them whether it was not the church rulers that killed christ , and called him a blasphemer and deceiver , and that persecuted and accused the apostles ? and whether the people were bound to believe them , ( as jewish papists , ) and whether all the apostles and christians were rebels and hereticks , for not believing them ? and whether it was not for the sins of priests and princes , and the peoples complying with them , that god by his prophets reproved the israelites , and at last forsook them to captivity , 2 chron. last . jer. 5 last . 15. and if they tell you of the peoples need of teachers , tell them that that is none of the controversie . but whether their teachers must teach them to understand god's book , or to throw it away ? may not the teacher and the book , consist together ? must school-boys be forbid to learn their grammar , because they must have a teacher ? must he teach them the book , or teach them without book ? but all the craft is , to get all the world to take only such cheaters as this for their masters , and then bible or no bible may serve turn . 16. is it not the office of teachers to translate god's word into known tongues , that the people may understand it ? this is the first part of preaching it : if not , why do they use translations in the church of rome , the septuagint ▪ and the vulgar latin ? and why did sixtus 5th . and clem. 8. make such a stir to correct the latin ? and why do so many comment on them ? and the rhemists turn it into english ? but what is all this for , but to help men to understand the book ? 17. doth not all the word of god cry down ignorance , and cry up knowledge , from end to end ? and what knowledge is it , but divine , of the word and law of god ? what else is the scope of all the first nine chapters of solomons proverbs , and of psal . 1. 19. and 119 , &c. god saith , hos . 4. 6. my people perish for lack of knowledge : and isa . 27. 11. it is a people of no understanding , therefore he that made them will not save them . ignorance and blindness are made the common cause of errour , sin and misery . but we are so far from taking all parts of scripture to be equally necessary to be understood , that we are more than the papists for first and most diligently teaching them the essentials , the creed , lord's prayer , and commandments , and baptism , and church communion , and the lord's supper , and lesser parts as they grow up ; what they must learn first their teachers must instruct them . 18. if he say , as they still do , that the ignorant will misunderstand the scripture , and every one turn it to his own fancy , and heresie : i answer , the way to prevent this , is to teach it them diligently , ( what else is the ministry for ? ) and not to forbid it them . every knave may pervert the law of the land to maintain his own ill cause ; and must the law therefore be forbidden them ? reason is far more commonly abused than scripture : there is no heresie , or error , no villany , perjury , cruelty , persecution , oppression , or injustice , but reason is pleaded for it : must reason therefore be renounced ? heresies are for want of understanding god's word ; and must be cured by understanding it . 19. and if all the world must take the popes or priests words , instead of gods , or for their rule , how shall those in aethiopia , syria , america , or here , know what the popes word is ? that never see him , or any that hath seen him ? and how shall we know , when above twenty times there have been two popes at once , which of them is the right ? and when they contradict and damn each other , which of them must we believe ? and when general councils accuse them of errour , and condemn them , which is to be trusted with our souls ? or if it be councils that must be to us instead of scripture , when they damn each other , which must we believe ? ( and so abundance of them have done . ) when the pope and they agreed to depose christian princes , and give away their dominions , and disoblige their subjects from all their oaths of allegiance , is it as true as the word of god , that all subjects must believe and obey them ? but how shall all the poor people know what the pope and councils say and hold ? they can neither read their volumes , nor understand them , nor know which are authentick and true ? must they all believe their parish priest ? what if he be as very a deceiver as the writer of this touchstone , that doth but cheat from the beginning to the end ? yet must we take his word instead of gods ? or when other priests , or fryars contradict him , which of them must we believe ? what if his parishoners know him to be ignorant , or a common lyar ? yet must our salvation rest on his word ▪ and god's word be forbidden us . what if we obey him in error , and sin , will he undertake to be damned for us ? or will his undertaking or damnation save those whom he mislead , & c. ? as to his citation of scripture against scripture , it is so palpable a perversion , that i will leave any man that will but read the text , to his own ability , to answer him : rev. 5.1 . no man in heaven or earth , was worthy to open the sealed books that john saw in his vision : what then , must no man therefore open the bible ? or because the revelation is hard , must therefore the people be forbidden to read it , and the rest of god's word , which was written for them , as sufficient to make them wise to salvation , yea , to make the simple wise , psal . 19. and with as shameless a face doth he cite the fathers , against the drift of all their writings and labours , and the judgment of all the churches of christ , for many hundred years , of its purest foundest primitive times . the fourth accused point . that apostolical traditions , and ancient customs of the church , ( not founded in the written word , ) are not to be received , nor do oblige us . ans . this is but more deceit , by confusion and false report . the reformed catholicks hold , 1. that memory is not so sure a way to deliver any laws and doctrines to posterity , through many hundred years , as writing is . for it must lie on the memories of so many thousands , in so many ages , and so many parts of the world ; of so many languages , kingdoms , and cross interests and opinions in their quarrels ; and the things to be remembred are so many , that this needs no proof , with any but fools or mad-men : what a religion should we have had , if instead of the bible , it must have all been brought us down by the memories of all the rabble of ignorant and wicked popes ? yea , or of the best ? and by the memories of all the prelates and priests that have pretended to be the church ? why do they themselves write their pretended traditions , if writing them were not needful ? and why have we all our statutes , records , and law-books , if the lawyers and peoples memories would keep and deliver them without these ? when men's memories , wits , and honesty are so weak , that we can scarce get one story carried without falsifying through many hands . 2. we hold , that god in mercy hath therefore considered man's weakness , and necessity , and before the apostles died , inspired them to record so much of his law , and gospel , and will , as was universally necessary for all his subjects to know , in order to divine belief ; obedience , and salvation : and hath left nothing of this importance and necessity unrecorded in the law of nature , ( god's visible works , ) and scripture , knowing that after ages were not to have new universal legislators , to make such laws for all the world ; nor to have men miraculously enabled to do it , and give proof that it is divine . 3. we hold that god's written word and law , is perfect in its kind , psal . 19. and sufficient to its proper use and end : which bellarmine , cassinus , and the council of basil , and many school-men , in their prologues on the sentences , confess extendeth to all things commonly necessary to salvation , yea , and to be the divine rule of faith. 4. yet we deny not , that if god had seen meet to deliver any necessary part of law or gospel , faith or practice , as his will , by bare word and memory of man ; we had been bound to believe and obey it , when we had sound proof that it was indeed from god. 5. we hold , that for fullest certainty , we have possession of the bible it self , and of the essentials of christianity brought us by two means conjunct , that is , the scripture , and practical custom of the church . as the scripture or written word shineth to us by its own light , so tradition tells us which be the canonical books , and how the church received them as divine , and that there are no other such : and the practice , of baptismal profession and covenanting , and of the church assemblies , and reading scripture , and catechizing , and of eucharistical communion , and prayer , &c. tell us what in all ages hath been taken for true christianity . as we hold a humane belief , needful in subserviency , as a means to divine belief , so we hold humane tradition needful to the conveyance of god's word to us . but , by your leave , we will distinguish the messenger from the authour : if the king send me a law or mandate by a messenger , or by the penny-post , i will receive and obey it , and yet not take the post or messenger for king , or legislator , or infallible . 6. and the reformed catholicks do own all true tradition , but are for a far surer tradition than the roman sect. our tradition of scripture , and the great points of christianity , cometh to us by evidence infallible , that may be called natural , with the greatest advantage of moral evidence also ; and not on the boast and bare word of one proud sect , that pretendeth to fanatick inspiration and authority above all others . i call that natural evidence , which ariseth from such necessary causes that cannot be otherwise , nor can deceive : and i call that the best moral evidence , which cometh from mens testimony of greatest credit for skill and honesty , and we have both these . mans soul hath some necessary acts that cannot but be , and cannot be otherwise : such is sensation of sensible objects duely presented ; intellectual perception of things presented according to the evidence in which they appear : the love of our selves and our own known welfare , and any thing that is known to be an only and necessary means thereto , and hath omnimodam ratiomem boni : the love of truth as truth , and good as good : the hatred of misery , &c. these all men have as men , and that which dependeth on these dependeth not only on mens honesty . and our evidence of tradition is such as this . it is from the common consent of all capable witnesses , of various opinions , passions and interests , friends and foes ; whereas the tradition of sectarian papists , dependeth on the credit of one sect , that falsly pretend a peculiar trust with both scripture and tradition , tho' against the greater part of christians : and pretend fanatically that even ignorant popes and prelates in council , have a gift of infallible knowledge . for example : if there were a doubt raised , whether there be any such city in the world as rome , paris , vienna ? or whether there was ever such persons as k. james , k. charles , ludovicus 14 ▪ of france , & c. ? or whether the statutes in our books were really made by the kings and parliaments named in them , and be the same unchanged , &c. there is natural evidence of all this , because it ariseth from necessary acts : all sorts of men of contrary interests could never agree to lie and deceive men in such cases , no more than they could all agree to kill themselves : and if some would be falsifyers , the rest would presently detect and shame them : if any lawyers would falsyfie or change the statutes , others would presently manifest the deceit , they being commonly known , and the cross interests of so many depending on them ; yea , i say not only that this is natural infallible evidence , but that it is more than very much other physical evidence of many other things ; because we have better means to know mans natural necessary acts , than we have to know most other creatures of god. and then for moral evidence , we have all the godly's attestation of all ages , and nations , and sects of christians , and among the rest the papists also , agreeing that this bible , and this creed , and these essentials of christianity , were all certainly transmitted to us from christ and his spirit , in his apostles . and what 's the tradition of the papal sect to all this , who tell us falsely , you cannot know the scripture to be god's word , but by taking it on the belief of the pope and church of rome , as endowed with the power of judgment , and the gift of infallibility . alas ! what abundance of impossibilities must be proved true , before any man can by this method believe god's word ! 1. before they can believe the gospel , and that jesus is the true christ , they must believe that he hath a vicar . 2. and a church . 3. and the pope is this vicar , and his sect this church . and 4. that he hath the office , power and gift , of infallible judging , which the major number of christians or churches have not . 5. and that christ ( not yet believed in , ) gave him power and infallibility . 6. and that he that now reigneth , is the true pope by due election , consecration , qualification , &c. with many more such impossibilities : and what is it to give up the cause to the infidels , if this be not ? 7. but we judge that god's law in scripture , secured from the charge of pretended rememberers and vsurpers , is so sufficient to its proper use , that there needeth no supplemental tradition , as if it were but half god's law ; but only subservient historical tradition . and we challenge the papists to prove de facto , 1. that any such supplemental tradition is existent . 2. that they possess any other , but what the other churches know . 3. that they are more than other churches , authorized to be the keepers and judges of that tradition . and 4. we fully prove them innovators , and that popery is a meer novelty : it is copiously proved by peter moulin , de novitate papismi , david blondel de ecclesia , andrew rivet defence of morney against coffetean , and against silvester , and many others . can they without the most profligate impudence pretend apostolical tradition , for denying the laity the cup in the eucharist , and for their praying in an unknown tongue , and forbidding the scripture , and deposing princes , and dissolving oaths of allegiance , and for tormenting and killing all baptized persons that obey not the pope , with many such ? 8. if tradition tell us of any customs used in the apostles , or primitive times , that be not in scripture , and so be not made matters of necessity to all ; yea , or of any occasion all mutable customs that are mentioned in scripture , ( as washing the saints feet , the holy kiss , the womans vail , long or short hair , collections each lords day , preachers travelling on foot , &c. ) we quarrel not with the then use of such traditions , when they were seasonable , no more than with forbearing things strangled and blood : nor quarrel we with the churches after , that setled easter day , and made the 20th . canon of the nicene council , and used divers ceremonies at baptism . but traditions of things indifferent and mutable , we receive but as such , to be laid aside when the occasion ceaseth : and if any will turn them into a necessary common law , we disclaim such usurpers ; for they cross that very tradition . it was delivered as indifferent , and you feign and make it a necessary law , and so destroy it . 9. we maintain openly , that tradition is against the papacy and its corruptions . they are but a third or fourth part of christians : the other two or three parts of the christian world , profess that the tradition of their churches is against the popes universal sovereignty , and against all the corruptions of which they accuse him . none but the shameless will deny that the abassians , armenians , greeks , and others , plead that this is their tradition . and reader , tell us , why the tradition of two or three parts of the church should not rather be believed against a third part , than that which the third part boast of against all the rest . 10. ask them which way they know and keep their traditions ? whether they have any history , records , or any other way which we may not know as well as they ? if they pretend that it is a secret , kept by their church , it 's a strange secret that so many thousands know : but if it be a thing proveable , let them prove it . 11. is it not unmercifulness , to tell all the christian world , that as big and hard as the bible is , if they knew and obeyed it all , they cannot be saved , unless they believe and do more , kept by the pope , and called tradition ? when yet these deceivers can dispense with the knowledge and practice of god's own word , and think the bible a book too big and hard , ( and the prophane say , too strict , ) to be commonly understood and kept ; and yet all the bible is not enough , but we must be bound to as much more as they will call tradition , yea , volumes also of papal canon laws . 12. did not christ for this thing condemn the old pharisees , mat. 15 ? prove your traditions to be apostolical , and about things necessary , and not your forgeries , or about things mutable and indifferent , and we will obey all such apostolical traditions . but your novelties and usupations shall not pass with us for divine laws , because you can call them such . the fifth accused point . that a man by his own understanding and private spirit , may rightly judge and interpret scripture . ans . can any man unriddle what this deceiver meaneth ? 1. can a man judge without his own understanding ? 2. what meaneth he by a private spirit ? little know i. if he mean god's spirit , it is no contemptible nor private spirit , even in a private man : if he mean a man 's own spirit , soul or intellect , it is the same as [ his own understanding . ] if he mean any evil spirit , or fancy and erroneous self-conceit , we defie such spirits , and deceivers that use them . to understand without our own understandings , is a mystery fit for rome ; why may not a dog , or a sheep , be said so to understand the scripture , if it may be understood without our own understandings ? what a curse is on the ignorant nations , that will be led by such words as these ! but if he will say that he meant , [ by his own understanding alone without a teacher , ] why did he not say so , but say one thing and do another . but that had been too gross a lye , to have been believed , by them that see that we set up teachers in all our congregations . 3. therefore i can imagine nothing but absurdity in his words , unless he mean , that we hold that a man may rightly interpret scripture by his own understanding immediately , instructed by his teacher and god's spirit , without taking the sence only at the rebound , on the belief of the pope and his clergy . for we never thought that a man 's own natural wit without a teacher , and the help of god's spirit , can savingly understand and apply the scripture . and yet we would fain tell papists a better way to convert a philosopher , or a turk , than to preach to them thus : god hath written his law and gospel to the world , but you cannot tell what is the meaning of it , till you take that sence on trust from our pope and clergy , and know that christ authorized him to be judge ; and that before you believe in christ , or understand the word that so authorizeth him . were not corrupted nature very blind in things spiritual , plow-men , and tinkers , and coblers , would be able to confute such fopperies , and much more priests , and popes , and prelates . 4. but i pray you tell me , whether the pope and his prelates , do not interpret scripture by their own understandings ? whose understandings else do they judge by , in conclaves or councils ? 5. and tell me , whether he that judgeth that the pope is christs vice-christ and ruler , at the antipodes , and is infallible , tho' he be by councils condemned for a simonist , and infidel , an atheist , a seducer , or an ignorant sot ? doth not this man judge all this by his own understanding ? if a man take an ignorant sottish priest for the mouth of the catholick church , tho' he know no more what he talks against , than this roman deceiver , doth he not judge this by his own understanding ? if a sot will believe you , that your sect is the whole church , and all are damned , tho' they love god , and believe in christ , if they will not be ruled by the pope and every mass-priest , doth he not judge thus by his own understanding ? do you preach to men , or beasts , that have no understanding of god's law and will ? if a man must believe all the canons of popes and councils , in baronius , binnius , surius , nicolinus , caranza , &c. doth he not do it by his own understanding ? 6. oh! but the meaning is , you are all private ignorant men , and we are the clergy ; kings choose some of us , and popes choose others , and whether we are wise or fools , learned or vnlearned , infidels or christians , you are all damned if you will not follow us , and if we be damned , you must be content to be damned with us . and is it so ? hath god made man for no safer and better a condition , than to be damned when ever sottish drunken priests will tell him , [ you must believe us that are the mouth of the pope , and the pope , tho' you think that the word of god is against it ? ] speak out deceiver ; would you have all men be of their rulers religion , or not ? should the jews have believed the church , that christ was a blasphemer , deceiver and traytor , and the apostles seditious fellows ? must we be mahometans under turks , persians , and indians , and papists under papists ? and why not lutherans under lutherans also ? and so our king shall be our god , and our religion humane . or must men judge what is true or false , good or bad , by their own understandings ? do kings and prelates rule men , or dogs , and brutes ? if cromwell say , he is supream , and king charles say , he is supream , tell us whether we must not use our own understandings , to know which of them to believe and obey ? and must we not do so , if the world , the flesh , and the devil , say one thing , and christ another ? and i pray you tell us , whether that be religion that is not divine , and whether it be not our own understanding , that must distinguish between god and man ? did not vulgar folly fit slothful fools for hell , they would easily perceive that popery engaging them to renounce their own understandings , maketh us all voluntary brutes , to gratify the ambition of men , and puts down god from being our governour , and man from being a voluntary subject , and turns the kingdom of christ into the kingdom of beasts . the sixth point accused . that st. peters faith hath failed . ans . who could more ignorantly have stated a controversie ? 1. protestants are further from the opinion that peters faith failed , than the greatest papist doctors : some protestants hold that no man that hath true saving faith , doth ever totally lose it ; much less peter . others hold , that no elect person that hath true faith , doth totally lose it : and so thought augustine : others add , that though some , as calvin speaks , qualecunque semen sidei perderint , having no more immutable grace than adam had in innocency , yet all that have a confirmed radicated habit , persevere . and as to peters faith , all save those called arminians agree , ( as far as i know , ) that his faith was not totally lost , nor peter relapsed into a state of damnation : but will all the jesuits say as much ? we commonly hold that the habit of peters faith , must be distinguished from the acts , and the act of assent from the act that exciteth confession and conquereth opposition . and that peters faith did not totally fail as to the habit , nor the assent , that christ was the messiah : but that it actually failed as to the latter act , that should conquer fear : christ said to him and the rest before that , why are ye fearful , o ye of little faith : little faith , is faith failing in degree . this is our victory over the world , even our faith , saith st. john. and did not peters faith fail as to part of that victory , when he curst and swore that he knew not the man ? but by peters faith , this deceiver meaneth the popes faith : and he instanceth in the scribes and pharisees , that were to be heard because they sate in mose's chair , and in cajaphas the high-priest . reader , see what christians these slaves of christs pretended vicar are : doth he not plainly infer , that the people did well that believed the priests , and the scribes , and pharisees , that christ was a deceiver and workt miracles by the devil ; and was a blasphemer and a traytor , and deserved death ; and that cryed away with him : crucifie him ? and what wonder if they obey their high priest , when he commandeth them to murther thousands and hundred thousands saints nicknamed hereticks , when they justifie them that killed christ and the apostles , because the church commanded it , ( unless they will renounce their own plain consequence ? ) and must we indeed believe , that the popes faith never failed , because peters did not ? then we must believe that general councils that are their church , have been very false and slanderous . reader , i will give thee but an account of one or two , ( when their own most flattering historians have written of many a long time , that they were rather apostatict , than apostolici , and named but to keep the account of time . ) the great general council at constance , ( that burnt john hus and jerome of prague , for truth and honesty , ) finding three popes heading three churches called roman catholicks , had no way to return to unity , but by putting down all three : with much adoe they got down two of them : but pope john at rome had the fastest hold , and they had more adoe to get him down ; and had not the emperour resolved to back them , they had been foiled . hereupon he is accused in the council , first , by fifty four articles , of such monstrous villanies , as one would think humane nature were uncapable of . afterward many more are added , of poysoning pope alexander , of incest with his brothers wife , and the holy nuns , and ravishing maids , and adultery with men's wives , and much more ; and of simony , almost incredible : and amongst the rest , ( which i forbear to recite , lest i tire the reader , ) they say and prove , that he was a notorious simoniack , and a portinacious heretick ; that oft before divers prelates , and other honest men , by the devils perswasion he pertinaciously said , asserted , dogmatized , and maintained , that there is no life eternal , nor any after this : and he said and pertinaciously believed , that man's soul dieth with the body , and is extinct , as are the bruits : and he said , that the dead rise not , contrary to the articles of the resurrection , &c. these articles being shewed to the pope , he confest his sin , and consented to be deposed , and begged mercy , but all in hypocrisie , while he sought to get out of their hands and power . and now reader , dost thou think that it is the mark of a heretick , and deserveth burning and damnation , for a man to think that this popes faith failed ? were it not for tiring you , i would repeat such articles against many others of them , as would make you think , that not only the heathen philosophers , but even mahomet was a saint in comparison of these swinish and diabolical popes . after this , the great council at basil accused eugenius the 4th . of heresie and multitudes of horrid crimes , and deposed him : but he outfaced them , and standing it out to the last , got the better , and the succession is ever since continued from this pope , that was deposed by a grand general council . before these , pope john the 12th . was deposed by a council at rome , called by otho the emperour , for such horrid villanies , as no pagans that we read of ever matcht . read them but in baronius , and binnius : drinking healths in wine to the devil , and calling at dice upon jupiter and venus , besides murders , simony , incest and all wickedness , are all consistent with papal faith : and if this be no failing , i shall grant that the popes faith ( nor the devils , ) can never fail . the seventh accused point . that the church can err , and hath errors . ans . this is truly and honestly recited : all protestants hold it , and marvel that all the devils in hell can so befool any as to deny it . 1. no body can tell what it is that they call the church , till they tell us : but what ever it is , except confirmed angels and souls in heaven , if they cannot err , god and our saviour , and the apostles have erred . for they tell us that , [ we know but in part , ] and if any man say that he hath no sin , he is a lyar , 1 joh. 1. 1 cor. 13.12 . and in many things we offend all , jam. 2.2 . psal . 19.12 . who can understand his errours , cleanse thou me from secret faults . it was the church of which god complaineth , that they alway err in their hearts , and have not known god's ways , psal . 95.10 . heb. 3.10 . unless caleb and joshua were all the church , isa . 53.6 . all we like sheep have gone astray , &c. if by the church they mean the priests , how full of complaints against their errours are all the prophets , and history of the kings and chronicles ? isa . 3.12 . o my people , they that lead thee , cause thee to err , and destroy the way of thy paths . isa , 9.15 , 16. for the leaders of this people cause them to err , and they that are led of them are destroyed . mal. 2. the priests lips should keep knowledge , and they should seek the law at his mouth , for he is the messenger of the lord of hosts : but ye are departed out of the way , and ye have caused many to stumble at the law : ye have corrupted the covenant of levi , saith the lord of hosts : therefore have i also made you contemptible and base before all the people , according as ye have not kept my ways , &c. hos . 4.6 . my people are cut off for lack of knowledge : because thou hast rejected knowledge , i will olso reject thee , that thou shalt be no priest to me . jer. 53.31 . the prophets prophecy falsely , and the priests bear rule by their means , and my people love to have it so , and what will ye do in the end hereof ? 2 chron. 36.14 , 16 , 17. all the chief of the priests and the people transgressed very much after the abominations of the heathen : but they mocked the messengers of the lord , and despised his words , and misused his prophets , till the wrath of the lord arose against his people , and there was no healing ▪ so isa . 1.2 , 3 , 4. reader , is it not worse than infidelity that these men teach , if they say that the church hath not erred ? was it no error when aaron set them up the golden-calf ? nor when they went after the idols of the heathen , and worshipped in the high places ? was it no error to take christ for a deceiver and blasphemer , worthy to be crucified ? was it no error to reject the gospel , and persecute the apostles ? and had the apostles no error , when they believed not that christ must die for our sins , and rise again , and ascend to heaven , but thought he must then set up an earthly kingdom ? was it no error of peter , math. 16. to disswade christ from suffering , for which christ said , get thee behind me sathan , thou savourest not the things that be of god , but those that be of men ? and i think he erred , when paul openly rebuked his separation , gal. 2. if all the church on earth consist only of persons that have many errors , then the whole church hath many errors : but the antecedent is so true , that i take him that denyeth it , to be so far from knowing what the church is , or what a christian is , that he knoweth not what a man is , and a church of such are so unfit to be trusted as infallible , with all mens salvation , that they have not the wit of common illiterate men , or children : and if in all things else they were as mad as in these two opinions . 1. that the church never did nor can err. 2. and that all mens senses must be denyed for transubstantiation ; doubtless they should be kept in bedlam from humane converse . but for my part , i do not think that any man of them not stark mad , doth believe himself that there are any men in the world that have no error , ( that have any use of understanding . ) he is far from knowing what man is , that knoweth not that he swarmeth with errours : i oftner doubt whether the greater number of most mens thoughts , are true or false . but if by the church they mean only the pope , if he cannot err , then it is no errour to believe that there is no life but this , and that mans soul dieth as the beasts , and that it is lawful to murther gods servants by thousands , or hundred thousands ; if all the foresaid popes in the ages 800 , 900 , 1000 , 1100 , erred not , sure there is no such thing as errour in the world. but perhaps by the church is meant general councils . but 1. if they erred not in their decrees , doth it follow that therefore they had no errour ? 2. but did not the second council at ephesus err ? where they tell us that sola petri navicula , only the popes messengers escaped the heresie ? did not the council of calcedon err in their opinion , when it determined that the reason of romes primacy was because it was the imperial seat , & c. ? were all the councils free from errour that were for the arrians ? and those that were against them ? and all that were for the monothelites ? and those that were against them ? and all that were for images , and those that were against them , & c. ? but at last they come to this , that the pope may err , and councils may err , but when they agree , they cannot err : a happy meeting of erring persons , if they are both cured by it . but sure it is not the meeting : for the pope is at rome , when the council is at trent , ephesus , constantinople , &c. if a council may err , and the pope err , what proveth it impossible for them to agree in errour ? the pope and council at lateran 4th . agreed for the popes deposing princes that exterminate not all out of their dominions that deny transubstantiation , &c. was this no errour ? obj. but this was not a matter of faith. ans . is it no matter of faith with them , whether it be lawful or not , according to gods law , to kill men that believe their senses , and to depose princes ? and whether subjects may break their oaths of allegiance , and forsake their prince if the pope command them , and all because their prince will not be a murtherer or persecutor ? these are no matters of faith with them ? but sure they have made them articles of their religion . and either the rebels , and murtherers ▪ and pope and council err , or else gods law and gospel err. the judgment of the reformed catholicks is this , 1. that there is no man living without errour . 2. that the apostles of christ were commissioned to deliver his gospel to the world , by word and record , and had his promise of his spirit to lead them into all truth , and keep them from doing that work erroneously which they were commissioned to do : ( tho' not to make them absolutely free from sin or errour in all other things . ) and therefore the scripture written by them is free from errour , by virtue of the special promise and spirit . 3. that all true christians , ( really regenerate , ) are free from all errour , inconsistent with true saving faith , and title to salvation . 4. that therefore the church as it signifieth only the said regenerate true christians , hath no damning errour , or none but what is pardoned , as consistent with saving faith and holiness . 5. that the universal visible church , is the whole company of men on earth , that profess true saving faith , and are by covenant vow baptized into this profession : and that all this true visible church , professeth no errour , inconsistent with their profession of the foresaid saving faith : because the profession of saving faith is essential to visible christianity , and to the visible church . for mark , that i say not that they profess no errour inconsistent with sincere faith in themselves subjectively , nor yet that as to objective faith , may not by unseen consequence overthrow it : for there is such a concatenation of divine revealed truths , that it is a doubtful case , whether any one errour ( which all men have , ) do not by remote consequence subvert the very foundations . but no true visible church or christian , so professeth any one errour , as not to profess the essential points of faith and godliness , tho' they may think falsely that both are true . therefore protestants teach , that unseen consequences are not to be so charged on those that see them not , and hold fast the ( injured ) truth , as if it were a known or direct denyal of the truth . 6. but every church , and every man , being imperfect both in knowledge , faith and holiness , have all some errour : for to be objectively de fide , is to be of divine revelation : and all the scripture is divine revelation . and if the question be , whether any pope , council or church , understand all the scripture without any errour ? judge by commentators , and common experience . and now what saith the deceiver against all this ? 1. he citeth isa . 59.21 . god hath promised to preserve his word in the church : ergo , the church cannot err ? a forged consequence , no more followeth , but that the true church shall not lose or forsake gods word : for then it would cease to be the church : but 1. not that the best churches understand all that word without any errour . 2. nor that any particular church visible may not apostatize , or turn hereticks , or corrupt gods word , and forbid men to use it in a known tongue , as the papists do . next he citeth joh. 14.16 . as if all the church had the same promise of the spirit of infallibility , as the apostles had : if so , then , 1. papists are none of the true church , because they have many errours . 2. and if the major part be the church , rather than a minor sect , then all other christians that are against popery are free from errour , for they are twice or thrice as many as the papists . 3. and when the far greater part were arrians , they were free from errour : yea , the council of sirmium , to which pope liberius professed full consent . or did christ break his promise to all these ? 4. if the pope or all his prelates , have as full a promise of the spirit as the apostles , then they may write us a new bible , and word of god , as they did : no wonder then if the canons and decretals be as much gods word as the bible ? but why then do they not confirm their canons by miracles as the apostles did ? and why did so many popes contradict each other ? had both stephanus , formosus , nicholas , and the foresaid johns that denyed the life to come , &c. the same gift as the apostles ? surely we may well say to them as st. james , shew me thy faith by thy works ? they did shew it by most odious simony , gluttony , drunkenness , lying with maids and wives , even at the apostolick doors , murdering christs members by thousands , silencing faithful preachers , deposing emperours , commanding perjury and rebellion , even to sons against their own fathers : forbidding all church worship of god to whole kingdoms for many years , when a king will not obey the pope : by such works they shew their faith ! o the power of satan , and the horrid pravity of man , when such things are not only justified , but trusted to for justification , and made consistent with a church that never erred . indeed these errours crept in by degrees , which maketh it difficult to expositors of scripture prophesie , to know just the year when the mischief became so ripe as to prove rome to be babylon apostate to pagano-christianity , and the pope to be antichrist . but if i see a man raging mad in bedlam , i will not make it an article of my faith , that he is sanae mentis , because i know not just when his amentia & deliratio , or melancholly became a mania , or furor . the deceiver also citeth , mat. 18.17 . viz. because men must hear the church , where a sinner dwelleth , that calleth him to repentance after due proof and admonition , therefore the pope and his prelates cannot err. an argument liker a derision , than a serious proof : did not the pope then err , when bishops and councils have in vain called him to repent ? doth not the church err then most damnably , that commandeth murder , treason , and most heynous sin , and is the leader of the impenitent ? must we take such then as heathens and publicans ? but as the man thinketh , so the bell tinketh . do but fancy that by the [ church , ] is meant only the pope and his clergy ; and that all is such sin which the pope calleth so , tho' god command us , and then all such texts will seem to them to say what they would have them say . the man also citeth , eph. 5.27 . viz. christ will present his regenerate church , perfect and spotless in judgment . what then ? ergo , the visible church on earth hath no errour or spot : and ergo , the pope and his clergy are this visible perfect church . and why not as well constantinople , alexandria , antioch , or jerusalem , the mother church ? which part is it that is the whole , or indefectible ? what is profaining gods word , if this be not ? if any should be forbidden the scripture , it is these prophaning priests . the eighth accused point . that the church hath been hidden and invisible . ans . we do not think that the pope and his clergy-church have been hidden and invisible . their wars , even in italy and rome , for many ages made them visible : yea , and palpable too : the kings and emperours that they fought against or deposed knew them ; above 100000 waldenses and albigenses felt them to the death : quae regio in terris talis non plena laboris . whether this man knew not the protestants judgment herein , or whether he would not have his reader know it , i cannot tell ; but i shall tell you what it is . 1. protestants commonly hold , that as the word [ church ] signifieth the company of sincere christians , and heart-consenters to the baptismal covenant , so it is invisible to man that knoweth not the heart . inward faith and love which denominate them , are not seen by others , dare any deny this ? 2. but as the word [ church ] signifieth the vniversality of men baptized professing christianity in publick assemblies , so it was never invisible , since such publick profession and assemblies first began . 3. but when the pagan persecutors forced their meetings into woods and cells , and pits , called conventicles , and to night-meetings , they were hidden from the persecutors , as well as they could hide themselves : and so they were , when they hid themselves from the arrian persecution of valens , constantius , gensericus , hunnerichus , and from the persians : and so were those of tholouse , piedmont , bohemia , and others that hid themselves , and fled from the crusado's , under simon montford , and st. domonick , and others that murdered them . christ himself fled to egypt , and galilee , from persecutors . his disciples were met secretly for fear of the jews , when christ appeared to them ; when peter was in prison , many were assembled by night in a conventicle , at the house of marks mother , to pray for him . the papists themselves keep hidden meetings , where they cannot have more publick . 4. god hath not promised his church , such constant prosperity , as that in every age any nation shall have publick liberty without all persecution ; much less that they shall be still uppermost , and masters of the world , and have kings and emperours always for them . 5. but we cannot say , that yet the church hath been so low since the days of constantine , that all princes have disowned the essentials of christianity , and we hope it never will be so . 6. but all ages and parts of the church , have not been equally pure and sound : in some ages the arrians were most : in the reign of theodosius junior , anastasius , &c. the eutichians prevailed : in the days of philippicus the monothelites prevailed , so that at one of their councils binius saith , there were innumerable bishops : in one emperours time those prevailed that were against images ; in irene's and theodora's times , those that were for them : sometime the bishop of rome had most power , and sometime the bishop of constantinople , and alexandria : for an hundred years , even much of italy forsook him , and set up a patriarch at aquileia as their head : through many ages the citizens of rome themselves expelled him or fought against him . now in all these cases , the church , as professing christinanity , was still visible : but which of all the parts was the purest and soundest , was known to none but the sound parts themselves . and when and where the errours became so great as really to nullifie , or invalidate the profession of christianity this was known only to those near , that had opportunity to know the mind of the accused : for noxa caput sequitur : one man , tho' a prince or prelate , cannot make all his subjects hereticks by his errour . so that nothing hath been more visible , than that there have still been professed christians , and so an universal visible church on earth . but which parts of this church have de facto been sound , and which corrupt , and what errours have nullified their profession , and what only blemisht it , this hath never been visible to the erroneous ; ( for no man knoweth that he erreth ; ) but it hath been visible to the sound . and so , that the church of rome yet professeth christianity , we know : but whether their errours prove them babylon , or nullifie their christianity , must be known only by trying the guilty individuals . here the cheaters say to the ignorant , if the church hath been always visible , where was your church before luther ? ans . 1. where-ever there were men professing christianity and baptized , and not apostatizing . were there none such in the world , must we be put to prove where there were any christians before luther ? were not the hearers grosly ignorant , the cheaters would have no confidence in such fopperies as these . obj. but the church of rome profest christianity before luther . ans . it did so , and as christians we are of the same church with them , we know no universal church , but the christian as such , that is , all christians as only headed by christ if you cannot tell whether before luther there were any christians in the world , ( in abassia , egypt , syria , armenia , the greeks , muscovites , &c. ) it 's your gross ignorance of history . but whether papists , arrians , eutychians , nestorians , monothelites , phantasians , image-worshippers , do invalidate their profession of christianity , by their contrary errours and crimes , it much more concerneth themselves , than us to enquire and judge . but tho' those that nullify not their profession of christianity , are all of the same church universal that we are of , yet we profess that their new humane church , which is [ only the pope as head , and all that adhere to him as such , ] are no church of christ at all . all christians as such are parts of the christian church : but a policy consisting of a vice-christ and his subjects , is a rellellious usurpation , and no church , forma denominat : as christ is the head , all are of the church that truly cleave to him as head : as the pope is the pretended head , they are all a pack of rebels . and now what an ignorant cant is it to say , the church cannot apostatize ; ergo , it cannot err ; ergo , the pope of rome , and his hireling clergy cannot apostatize ; and ergo , they cannot err ! tell me , whether rome be all the world ? and whether the church of rome , and the christian world , be words of the same signification in any dictionary ? and whether an alexandrian catholick , or a c.p. are catholick , be not as good sence , as a roman catholick ? and whether the texts or fathers , that you name prophanely , will prove that the church of c.p. alexandria , antioch , or jerusalem , can never err , or apostatize , or be invisible ? and whether your own jesuits confess not that rome shall do so too , in the reign of antichrist ? in the mean time take this answer . 1. the church as intimately sanctified , and sincere , was ever invisible . 2. the church universal , as professing christianity , was ever visible , tho' oft hid by persecution . 3. whether rome , c.p. jerusalem be a true church or apostate , is invisible to those that knew them not . 4. that the papal church , as informed by a universal vice-christ , is a false church , is notorious . this is our judgment . the ninth accused point . that the church was not always to remain catholick or vniversal : and that the church of rome is not such a church . ans . the first part is a meer flat lye : we hold that the church is always to remain universal , till it be presented perfect in glory : if it remain not universal , what becomes of it ? is it a part of something else , or annihilated ? if christ have no church , he is no head of the church , and so no christ . what protestant church ever said any such thing , as you falsly charge them with ? that the church of rome is not such a church , that is , is not the vniversal church , indeed we not only say , but think the contrary , sitter for a man drunk than sober ? what ? is rome all the world ? is abassia , america , mesopotamia , muscovy , asia , thrace , england , scotland , sweden , denmark , no part of the world , yea , of the christian world ? and is not the christian world , the church vniversal ? reader , here is a controversy worthy the wits , learning and honesty of all the famous fathers , and doctors , and juglers of the roman catholick church . the question is , which of the rooms in the house is the whole house ? one saith that the kitchin , or the cole-house , or the house of office , is the whole house . we protestants say , that no one room is the whole , but hall , parlors , dining-room , and all the chambers , and closets , and kitchin , are the whole ; and if the cole-house , and house of office will needs be parts , we will not contend with them , but we will never grant that they are either the whole , or the best part : tho' by fire and stink , they think to force us to it . but the ancient writers distinguish between the catholick church , and a catholick church : by the first is meant the whole church : by the second is meant such a particular church , as is not schismatical , but a true and sound part of the whole . but what could these self-condemners say more against themselves , than thus openly to confess , that their sect claimeth to be the whole church , and so trayterously unchurcheth two or three parts of the church of christ , and damneth most christians , for not being traytors to christ , as they ? to confute his base abuse of scripture , is needless and irksome . the tenth point accused . that the churches vnity , is not necessary in al● p●i●ts of faith. ans . this we verily hold , for all that god hath revealed in scripture to be believed , are points of faith , ( if the word be used intelligibly by these men : ) but all the points of genealogies , topography , chronology , prophecy in scripture , are revealed to be believed , therefore they are points of faith ; and if unity in all these is necessary to the unity of the church , then no church on earth hath unity : certainly rome hath not , whose commentators and doctors disagree about many hundred texts of scripture , and sixtus 5th . and clemens 8th . popes , about the very translation of many hundred texts . these men must now say , that we are not bound to believe all gods word , or else they must confess that their church hath not unity . that which reformed catholicks hold is , 1. first points of faith , ( or revealed to be believed , ) are some of them essential to christianity , and of necessity to salvation , and some but intergrals , if not some accidents : the first all the true church agreeth in : the second not : as who is antichrist ? or babylon ? or the ten-horned , or two-horned beast in the revelations ? what is the time , times , and half a time , with an hundred such ? but in general , all believe that all gods word is true . it might convince these men , in that it was long before all the churches received all the canonical books of scripture , and yet all received not all their apocryphal books . and are these out of the church ? or are none of these books to be believed ? the eleventh point accused . that st. peter was not ordained by christ the first head or chief among the apostles ; and that among the twelve , none was greater or lesser than other . ans . meer falsehood , as undistinguisht . the word head is ambiguous ; this writer hath a head , such as it is , that other heads much differ from . reformed catholicks hold , that peter is called first in numbring them : that he was by christ in many instances , preferred before others : that he was an eminent speaker , and worker of miracles : that all the apostles were not equal in parts and worth ; but some herein greater than other . what , was judas no lesser than the rest , that was a thief and traytor ? john was eminently the disciple whom jesus loved . but we hold , 1. that as john was not made lord or ruler of the rest , by being loved more , so peter's preheminence made him no master or ruler of the rest : the twelve apostles were chosen relatively , to the twelve tribes . peter as reuben was the first , and denyed christ , and was called satan , with a get behind me , ( mat. 16. ) as reuben defiled his fathers bed. but as levi was the third , so was james the first sanctified apostle : and as juda the fourth , is called the law-giver , from whom the scepter should not depart , &c. so john the fourth is the disciple of eminent love ; and love is the everlasting grace , when faith and prophesie cease . but christ made no one of them ruler of the rest . proved , 1. no text speaketh any such thing : and the headship of governing power , would have been of such grand necessity to be known , that christ and his apostles must needs have plainly and oft inculcated it . 2. peter never exercised any such power ; what mention is there of any laws or mandates of his to the other apostles ? 3. the rest never sought to him for laws or orders . 4. the schism and controversies of christians were never decided by appealing to him as the judge . 5. when some at corinth would have made him their head , and said , i am of cephas , paul reproveth them as carnal , saying of all , what are they but ministers , by whom ye believed ? 6. paul reproveth him , gal. 2. 7. the jewish christians contend against him , for eating with gentiles , act. 11. whom he satisfieth by proof from god , and not by pleading his supremacy . 8. he never once claimed any such power . 9. paul , 1 cor. 12. tells us of none in the church greater than apostles . but the rest were apostles as well as he . 10. no such article was ever put into the churches creed . we grant that christ did in instituting the apostles office , institute a disparity of ministers in his church , and this to be continued in the ordinary continued part of their works , but not in the extraordinary . and we grant that in putting peter first , christ intimated , that among men of the same office , there may for order sake be a priority ; as the president of a synod or colledge , or the fore-man of a jury , or a chief-justice , or the speaker of a parliament : god is not the god of confusion , but of order , as in all the churches : if a parish or an independant church have one grave pastor , with divers young assistants , that were but his scholars , nature will give him some awing preheminence among them . we are not against such a primacy among bishops , or arch-bishops : but this is nothing to a governing office. and if peter had had such , what 's that to the pope of rome ? the twelfth point accused . that a woman may be head , or supreme governess of the church in all causes , as the late queen elizabeth was . ans . a cheat by confusion and equivocation . the church hath two sorts of government : one by the word of god , and the keys called ecclesiastical . the other by the sword , called princely or magistratical : we never had king or queen that claimed the former , and none but enemies of government deny the latter : queen elizabeth and all our kings since have publickly disclaimed the priest by office of words , keys and sacraments , which maketh the clergy tryers and judges what to preach , and whom to baptize and receive to church communion , absolve or excommunicate . but ask this deceiver , must the church have none to govern by the sword ? all christians are the church , and so all christian princes are deposed , because they are christians . or must the clergy have no such government over them ? yes , the pope , say the papal canons ; he is sword-bearer over the clergy : so you see what church-power is come to . but i trow , few papist kings will grant that they have no sword-government over the clergy , lest every priest be master of their houses , wives , and lives . the king is no physicain , or philosopher , no architect , shipwright , pilot , &c. but may he not be king and ruler of all these ? he is no clergy-man or priest , but the ruler of the clergy . but they say , it must not be in causes ecclesiastical . ans . causes ecclesiastical have two sorts of government , in order to two ends. as if one be accused for preaching against god or christ , or the life to come ; or for perjury , adultery , murder , &c. here the bishops are judges , ( and the church , ) whether this man be guilty in order to his communion or excommunication , or admonition . but the king and his judges are to judge , whether he be guilty , and so whether to be imprisoned , fined , banished , &c. so far as causes of religion or church , are to be punished by the sword , the king is head or governour , and judge : who would think that a sort of men that deny this , should have the face to say that they are loyal to kings , or any forcing government : must kings burn or kill , as many thousands at the popes command as the pope will call hereticks , and yet never have power to judge whether they are such , and do deserve it ? o! how much worse than hangmen , would such men make all kings and magistrates ! was not all the christian world in a sad case then , when the pope was under the arrian goths , and the subject of a foreign arian must rule all kings and kingdoms ? no man of brains can be ignorant that popedom or prelacy , do not always make men mortified saints , ( that oft have been scarce men , much less christians ; ) nor that the prince hath a great power , both in choosing and ruling the clergy that are his subjects . it fell out happily , that theodorick the arian , ( and divers spanish arian kings , ) were an honest sort of men ; but sure they were very mighty princes at rome , when one subject of an arrian goth , was ruler of all the kings and souls on earth , ( de jure , say our deceivers . ) and if the turk should possess rome , as he doth c.p. all kings and nations must be subject to his subject ? and what power he hath over the four patriarks of c.p. alexandria , antioch , and jerusalem , is too well known . and when baronius , binnius , &c. tell us of famous whores , ( marozia , and theodora , ) that made , and ruled and unmade popes , how was the world governed ? as it was said by a lord mayors child , that he ruled all london , saying , my father ruleth london , and my mother ruleth my father , and i rule my mother ; so might it be said , these whores ruled all the kings and nations of christians on earth ; ( if the roman claim be currant , for they made and ruled popes that claimed the rule of all the world. ) o! how much greater was a roman whore , ( marozia , theodora , &c. ) than pallas , venus , or the great diana of the ephesians ! but the mischief was , that they were mutable , and could unmake a pope , as well as make him , and set the city and country by the ears : as aequa venus teucris ; pallas iuiqua fuit . and if all kings must be subjects to the subject , ( or chaplains ) of him that can win rome , let us wish that he may not be a mahometan , pagan , or arian : and why said i an arian , when an anti-arian pope , can murder christians by thousands , when a theodorick would not have hurt them . the thirteenth point accused . that antichrist shall not be a particular man , and the pope is antichrist . ans . this is popish stating cases ; protestants find in the creed , the name of christ , but not the name of antichrist ; and therefore while they know and trust christ , they think it not necessary to salvation to know antichrist : but they believe christ , who said , that many should come in his name saying , i am christ and deceive many , even before the destruction of the jews ; and rhey believe st. john , that said , there are many antichrists already : the fathers and papists say , there is some one great antichrist to come towards the end of the world : most protestants think it is antichrist that is described , in 2 thes . 2. and rev. 12.13 , 17. to confute king james , bishop george downame , dr. henry more , ( above all ) mr. mede , cluverus , grasserus , &c. will require more than this writers impertinencies . there are many protestants that think it a meer mistake , that there will be any one antichrist so eminent as to obscure all the rest : and they pretend not to judge , of antichrist by the apocalyps , but by the ten commandments , and all the gospel : and they believe , that he is antichrist that usurpeth christs prerogative , and yet opposeth his kingdom : and such they think the eastern antichrist mahomet is the most notorious , and the western antichrist , the pope is his second ; in that he claimeth christs prerogative of governing all nations of the earth as vice-christ , and yet by lies , malice and blood , suppresseth his true gospel , grace and kingdom ; confute this if you can ; amending would be your best defence . we doubt not but antichrists past , have been individual men , such was barchocheba , and some say herod , and some dioclesian , but undoubtedly mahomet : and if the pope be the western antichrist , it is the individual popes that are such ; but many of those individuals may make a succession of antichristian policy . answer dr. more , and cluveru● of this , if you are able . we lay not our opposition to popery chiefly , on the dark revelation , prophecy , or on the question , who is the antichrist : but on the plain word of god : if we find a succession of men , claiming omnipotency and christs prerogative , to govern all kings and nations on earth , and this by bare and base vsurpation and novelty ; and find these men set up their numerous , false treasonable , inhumane canons , and forbid and revile gods law and word , and find them turning gods worship into unintelligible mummery and stage-shows , and ceremony , and find them living at leeches on blood , yea , on the blood of thousands of the best christians , and damning and separating from the far greater part of the christian world , because they refuse subjection to this usurping vice-christ , and judging all to fire and ruine that renounce not all humane senses , and worship not bread pretended to be deifyed by daily numerous miracles of the basest priests , and deposing kings that will not be such executioners , and justifying their subjects in perjury and rebellion : we will not differ with you for the name , whether you will call those that are such , antichrists , or diabolists : whether such a state be the babylon , or far worse , as sinning against more light , and by more horrid abuse of the name of christ against himself . the fourteenth accused point . that no man , nor any but god , can forgive or retain sins . ans . false as undistinguished . we hold , 1. that to forgive sin , being the forgiving of the punishment of sin , and the obligation thereto , 1. parents may on just cause forgive corrective punishment to their children , and masters to their servants . 2. magistrates may on just cause , forgive corporal punishment to subjects . 3. equals may forgive injuries to friends and enemies . 4. pastors may on just cause , forgive the church penalties , of excommunication , which they had power to inflict : and all the flock must forgive and receive the penitent accordingly . 5. when a sinner by faith and repentance , truly performeth the condition of gods pardon expressed in scripture , the ministers of christ are by office authorized to declare and pronounce him pardoned by god , and by the sacraments of baptism and the lords supper to invest him in a pardoned state , by delivering him a sealed pardon : but only suppositively , if his faith and repentance be sincere , else he hath not gods pardon of the divine punishment . this is all true and plain , and enough . but we detest their doctrine that say , 1. that men can pardon the spiritual and eternal punishment , any otherwise than consequently declaring and delivering gods pardon , which shall hold good , if the priest refuse to declare or deliver it . 2. or that popes or priests pardon , purgatory pains , and masses , and money , and the redundance of saints merits , and pleasing the pope , conduce thereto . but if you will speak so absurdly , as to say , that if the king send a pardon to a traytor or murderer , the messenger pardoned him ; we leave you to your phrases . none of the texts or fathers cited , speak for any more than what we hold . the pastors are to declare men pardoned , that god pardoneth : and while they so judge according to gods word , it is pardoned in heaven : but not if they pardon the wicked and impenitent . the fifteenth accused point . that we ought not to confess our sins to any man but to god only . ans . this is a mere impudent lie. 1. we ought to confess our sin , to the magistrate at his judicature , when we are justly accused of it . 2. and to those that we have injured , when it is needful to repair the wrong , or to procure their forgiveness . 3. and to those that we have tempted into sin , or encouraged in it , when it is needful to their repentance . 4. and to some faithful bosome friend , when it is needful that such know our faults , that they may watch over us , or advise us , or pray for our pardon and deliverance . 5. and when in sickness , danger of death , or other affliction , we get the pastors of the church to pray for us ; we should confess our sin to them , that they may know on what cause they speak to god for our forgiveness . 6. and in any case of guilt , trouble , fear , or difficulty , in which we need the pastors counsel for our safety , ease and peace of conscience , our selves and other friends being insufficient hereto , we should confess our sins to the pastors , whose advice we seek : as a patient must truly open his case to his physician , and a clyent to his councellor , if he will not be deceived , by deceiving them . is all this no confession ? but protestants believe not , 1. that we must go to a physician for every flea-biting , or scratch , or cut-finger , or to a lawyer to give him an account of all our actions , money , ot lands ; nor to priests in cases that our selves or ordinary friends can safely and satisfactorily resolve . 2. nor that our confessor must needs be a papist priest , or one chosen by the pope , or our enemies ; and not by our selves . 3. nor that we must open all our secrets to him ; or make any confession , which will do more hurt than good ; nor over far to trust the fidelity of a knave , nor a suspected or untryed person . 4. and we have reason to suspect them that are importunate to know our secrets . 5. and when confession is required , as in order to obtain a false forged pardon , and to set up the domination of usurpers over men's consciences , and over the world , it 's then unlawful : if protestants would force papists to confess all their secret sins to them , would not this same deceiver say , it were unlawful ? the sixteenth accused point . that pardons and indulgences were not in the apostles time . ans . another meer lie , as undistinguished . such pardons as i before owned were in the apostles times : but the popish feigned pardons were not . the seventeenth accused point . that the actions and passions of the saints do serve for nothing to the church . ans . most impudent calumny and falsehood . 1. we hold that the prayers of all the saints on earth , are of great importance for the churches welfare . 2. and that their doctrine , counsel , and reproof is so too , they being the lights of the world , and the salt of the earth . 3. and that their example is of grea● benefit to the church and world , whi●● their light so shineth before men , that the● may see their good works , and glorifie the●● father which is in heaven . 4. and their charitable works of themselves , sure are beneficial to the church : and so is their defence of the truth . 5. and their sufferings glorifie gods power , and his promises of reward ; and they encourage others to victorious constancy . do all these serve for nothing to the church ? 6. yea , we are so far from holding what he feigneth , that it is not the least cause of our hatred of popery , that it liveth by the defamations , slander , persecution , and cruel murder of saints . 7. yea , as abels blood cryed against cain , so the blood of martyrs , and dead saints , cryeth for vengeance against the persecutors of the church . 8. and seeing christ saith , that the children of the resurrection are like or equal to the angels , we have reason to believe that even now they are perfected spirits , heb. 12.24 . and knowing that angels are very serviceable and beneficial to the church on earth , we know not how far the spirits of the just are so too . but we have a sufficient mediator and advocate with the father , whose sacrifice , merits , and advocation are perfect , and need no supplement : and the spirits of the just do praise him as saved by his merits , and never boast that they have of their own a redundancy to save others . but we all with thankfulness confess , that god useth to bless the houses of the faithful ; the children for the parents sake , and hath exprest this in the decalogue , and by many promises : yea , that he would have spared sodom , had there been but ten righteous persons there : and a potiphars house , and a prison may be blest in part for josephs sake . and when parents are dead , this blessing may be on their children , through many generations . and god remembred abraham , when his posterity provoked him . david had a special promise for his seed . none of this is denyed by us . but , 1. there is no merit in any mans works , but their rewardableness by gods free grace and promise , for the sake of christs meritorious righteousness , sacrifice , and intercession , their imperfection being pardoned through him , and their holiness amiable to god. 2. no man shall be saved for anothers merit , or holiness , or works , that is not truly regenerate and holy himself . the eighteenth accused point . that no man can do works of supererrogation . ans . supererrogation is a sustian word of your own , by which you may mean what you please . 1. no man can perform to god , more duty than he oweth him : it 's a contradiction ; duty is quod debetur . 2. no man can profit god by any thing that he doth . 3. no man , save christ , lived wirhout all sin : and he that sinneth doth not all his duty , or keep all gods law perfectly . and he that doth not all , doth not all and more . 4. there is no moral good done by any man , which was not his duty , and gods law commanded not : for gods law is perfect , and therefore obligeth to all moral good : and as sin is the transgression of the law , so moral good is the conform obedience to the law. 5. god hath not counsels to moral action , which are not obliging laws , and make not our duty . for to keep them is moral good , and the law were imperfect if it obliged not to all such good . if the counsel oblige ut norma officii , it 's a law : if it oblige not , it 's vain . 6. but there are many actions that are neither commanded , nor counselled , nor forbidden : but those are not moral actions , as being no objects of our choosing or refusing by reasons conduct . the nictus oculorum , our breathing , our pulse , the circulation of the blood , &c. are no moral acts , commanded or forbidden , but necessitated : man maketh it no act of deliberation and choice , which foot he shall set forward first , or just how many steps he shall go in a day ; which of two equal eggs he shall eat , and an hundred such . these are neither duty nor sin , commanded , nor counselled , nor forbidden ; neither virtuous or vicious . 7. and there are innumerable actions , that are not the matter of any common-law or counsel , and so as such , are neither sin nor duty , which yet as circumstantiated and cloathed with accidents , are to this or that man either duty or sin. this not understood , maketh these ignorant casuists abuse the words of christ and paul , about chastity , and marriage . and because christ saith , every man cannot receive this saying , and paul , she hath not sinned : he that marrieth doth well , and he that doth not , doth better ; they gather that there are moral actions which are not best , and yet no sin. the true plain solution is from the two last considerations . 1. god hath made no law commanding or forbidding marriage , or celibate as such , or in common . to marry is no sin , considered meerly as marriage . 2. but god hath made laws against hurtful and injurious marriages , and to guide men to know , when marrying is a duty or a sin. 3. and if any ones case were so neutral , as that it could not be discerned , whether marrying were a hurt or benefit , it would be no moral , eligible or refuseable action . 4. but to some it is a great duty by accidents , and to some a great sin. therefore paul never meant that it was no mans duty , and no mans sin , but only that simply as marriage it was no mans duty or sin , or the matter of a commanding or forbidding law , but only by accident , it may be such to one more than to another . that this is pauls meaning , the papists must confess . for 1. do not they say that the marriage of priests , fryars and nuns are sin ? 2. if any one marry an infidel , or utterly unsuitable person , without necessity , against parents wills , or one that is impotent , or hath the pox , or that he cannot maintain , & c. ? is not this a hainous sin ? what else signifie gods law , and mans , against unlawful marriages . and if one cannot live chastly without marriage , and parents command it , it is not a sin to refuse ? the law saith , let all things be done to edification , and whether ye eat or drink , or whatever ye do , do all to the glory of god. and is it only counsel and no command , to marry or not marry , as it makes to gods glory or against it ? there are few actions of a mans life , that make so much to his hurt , and utter misery , as unwise and unmeet marrying . and is this on sin ? may they not see pauls meaning then , if they were but willing ? it is hard to imagine a case in which so important an action as marriage , can be neither sin nor duty . 2. but sometime men use the word [ sin , ] and [ sinners , ] for meer wickedness , and such sin as is inconsistent with a state of salvation . and we easily grant , that all sins are not such sins as these ; but gods law is perfect , tho' man be imperfect , and forbiddeth all sin , even the least . 3. but see the heresies of popery ? this man here saith , [ to do that which is counselled , is not necessary , because one may nevertheless be saved : but he who omitteth what is commanded , ( unless he do pennance , ) cannot escape eternal pains . ] 1. see here what a frivolous counseller they make christ , when it 's not necessary to follow his counsel . 2. see here how they make necessity to be only of that which a man cannot be saved without : when saul a persecutor , and blasphemer , an infidel , murderer , &c. may be saved , if he be truly convicted : obedience hath it's necessity , tho' we knew that god would forgive disobedience , to the convicted . 3. see here how they damn themselves and all mankind , every man living omitteth what is commanded many hundred times , for which he doth not that which they call pennance . he is a lyar , that saith he hath no sin , specially of omission . gods law bindeth us all to believe , to hope , to desire holiness and heaven , to love god and our neighbours , and our enemies , with a stronger degree of faith , hope , desire , and love , than we do : every prayer , and meditation is sinfully defective : every hour hath some omission of improvement : and all this is not remembred , nor all confest to a priest , nor all known or observed by any sinner : and some omission we are guilty of at our very death , by gradual defect of faith , hope , patience , love , content , and joy. and must all these go to hell ? 4. seeing by penance they mean not bare repentance , but making god satisfaction by a task , of penalty laid on them by a priest , ye see how they damn themselves , would be the masters of all others salvation , by their pennances . 5. but it 's like that purgatory is included by them in pennances ; or else no man should go to purgatory , but all to hell : for all have many omissions of commanded duty , which they did no pennance for in this life . 6. but you see of how little value they judge christs sacrifice and merit , that pardoneth no omission of a duty without pennance , and satisfaction truly . the nineteenth accused point . that by the fall of adam , we have all lest our free-will , and that it is not in our power to choose good , but only evil. ans . reader , i must desire thee not to judge of all the learned papists , by this deceiver : for if thou hast read the loads of voluminous controversies about grace and free-will among themselves , it will remain doubtful to thee , whether this mans stating the protestants doctrine , prove him ignorant of it , or a willing cheater . he tells you not , that this is as much a controversie among themselves , as with the prorestants . he tells you not , how augustine and palagius managed it , and that their pope celestine took augustines part : he tells you not , that the thomists , dominicans , oratorians , and most nominals , and scotists , say as much against free-will as we do , and we as much for it as they . he supposeth that you never read what lombaerd , aquinas , bradwardine , cajetane , ferrariensis , zumel , bannez , alvarez , aegedius romi , capreolus , and a multitude more , say as much , and many more , against free-will , than the protestants : he tells you , not that even the learned jesuits , suarez , vasquez , bellarmine , with penottus , and many such , are as much against free-will , as most learned protestants . the man takes you for a herd of silly animals , that know not but that he saith true , what falshood soever he shall tell you : but the truth of the controversie is this : 1. the protestants loath so silly a stating of controversies , as this chat of free-will without distinction : and so of power . 2. they know that physical , moral , and political freedom of will , are not all one thing . physical freedom or power , is that by which the natural faculty of the will , can determine it self to act , ( not without a superiour cause , but ) without any extrinsick or intrinsick coactor , or necessitating cause of evil. moral freedom and power , is that by which the will is from under the overstrong byas of a vicious disposition , or deceitful argument . 3. political freedom is , when no law of god or man obligeth him to any evil , but all to good . prothestants hold , 1. that physical liberty and power , is common to man , as man. that is , that he wants not natural faculties to choose aright , but a right inclination : and that he sinneth not for want of such faculties , but for want of their right disposition and action . 2. that all men have just so much , and no more moral liberty and power , as they have of gods grace , to relieve their vitiated wills and dispositions , and to help them in the act . no man is freed from vitious inclinations , further than gods grace freeth him , which is much more where there is special grace and strong , than where there is but common grace or weak . and that the thraldom or impotency of the vitious , is but the disease of their wills , and aggravation of their sin : e. g. where the drunkard or fornicator saith , i cannot forbear my sin : he is so much the worse and more unexcuseable . 3. every man hath not only political liberty to avoid sin , but much more , even gods urgent precepts , promises , and threats : god doth not only give us leave , but commandeth us not to sin. 1. it is the very essence of the will to be a natural power of faculty of willing good and nilling evil , as such , as so apprehended by the intellect , and commanding the inferior faculties , some politically , and some despotically , some difficultly , some easily , some perfectly , some imperfectly , according to it's resolution and their receptivity . 2. libertas hominis , when a man may have what he chooseth , is more than libertas voluntatis , which is but the mode of it's self determination ; as without constraint it is a self determining principle , of its own elicite acts , considered comparitively . which is , 1. liberty of contradiction , or exercise , viz , to will or not will , nill or not nill . 2. liberty of contrariety , or specification of the act , viz. to will this or nill it . 3. liberty of competition , to will this object or that : to nill this or that , ( of which see robert baronius his metaphysicks . ) the will hath such various sorts of liberty , and the word [ free-will ] is so ambiguous , that it is a shame , and irksome to read a pretended teacher , state a case thus indistinctly , whether we have free-will or power to choose good and refuse evil : he is no man that hath no such free-will and power . and no man hath all sorts of free-will and power . nay , as liberty is opposed to necessity ▪ every man is necessitated to will good as good , and nill evil as evil , and can do no otherwise : and whenever he willeth evil , it is sub ratione bon● , mistaking it for good : and who-ever nillleth good , doth it falsely , sub ratione malt . the will is free from constraint to sin : god will not so constrain it : men , devils , objects , cannot . he that had read but their pennattus and gibi●uf only , would see what a shame it is thus confusedly to talk for or against free-will . but that which protestants deny , is this . 1. they deny that mans will in his unregenerate state , is free from a vitious inclination , or from the conduct of an erring intellect , or from the byass and temptation of sensuality , or vitiated senses and imagination ; or from the temptations of satan and the world. 2. they deny that the will thus vitiated and tempted , will ever deliver it self without gods spirit and grace ; being rather inclined to grow worse . 3. they deny that this grace is perfect in any in this life , as without all defect in degree , or totally freeth any man from all sin : and therefore they deny that any mans will is perfectly and inculpably free from every degree of vice and danger . 4. and as that degree of common grace which is in the unregenerate , is but such as consisteth with the predominance or reign of sin , so that will of every unregenerate man in that pravity , is as a slave to it 's own , vitious disposition , and to errour , objects , and temptations ; being not delivered as to the predominance . 5. yet we believe that common grace is such , that these men are not utterly void of all good inclination , and knowledge ; and therefore that in moral sence , every man can do more good , and less evil than he doth : and that men perish , because not only they will not ( by pravity ) do what they have natural strength to do , but also because they will not choose and do what morally they might have chosen and done , as to the wills own power . 6. and we still say , that whenever a man sinneth , it was not because it was naturally impossible to do otherwise , ( as to touch the moon , to see without eyes , or through the earth , &c. ) nor for want of natural faculties , nor doth god by grace , give man other natural faculties , making him an animal of another species : but men sin because they will sin , and they will because they are tempted and now vitiously inclined ; from which their wills are made free only in that measure , that gods grace doth sanctifie them . if our priest would have told us , what there is in all this doctrine of free-will , that he dare accuse , ( and what dare he not cccuse , ) we should have seen cause to consider of his arguments : but now he citeth scripture as in a dream . the twentieth accused point . that it is impossible to keep the commandments of god , tho' assisted with all his grace and the holy ghost . ans . still meer confusion . protestants distinguish , 1. impossibility as natural or moral ; 2. of grace as perfect or imperfect , and as determitately operative , or only assisting and not determining . and they hold , 1. that no duty is impossible , ( or the performing of no commandment , ) by meer physical impossibility : the reason is , because god commandeth no physical impossibles : such as before named , to speak without a tongue , to see without light or object , to know things not knowable or revealed , to read without any teaching or learning , &c. if a man indeed disable himself , as put out his eyes that he may not read , or cut out his tongue that he may not preach ; the disabling act is vitiously aggravated , from all the good to which he disabled himself , as if it still had been his duty : but we cannot say that god still commandeth him when blind to read , or when dumb to speak , &c. indeed god changeth not his law ; but recipitur ad modum recipientis : the man hath changed his capacity , and is now no subject capable of such an obligation or command ; tho' he be capable of punishment for disabling himself , and non-performance : sin is no further sin than it is voluntary , by the wills omission or act , immediately or mediately . 2. but that it is morally by our pravity now impossible , for any man to keep all gods commandments and never sin ; what needs there more than sad experience of the matter of fact. 1. did he ever know the man himself , that from his first use of reason to his death , did spend every minute of his time as god commanded him , and did believe , and love god and man , and all good , with as great love as god commanded him ? and was as free from every fault , thought , passion , desire , fear , care , trouble , pleasure , word and deed as god commanded ? he would be no small sinner that were so self ignorant , proud , unhumbled , as to say that he is no sinner . 2. why else do these priests force all men to confess their sins to them , if men be such as never sinned ? 3. why do they compose all their liturgies and offices for their churches , with confessions of sin ; and prayers for forgiveness ? 4. why do they baptize all , if they have no sin ? and in what sence do they give them the eucharist ? 5. how little use do they feign such men to have of a pardoning saviour ? 6. in what sence shall such say the lords prayer , forgive us our sins or trespasses ? 7. doth not the text expresly call him a lyar that saith he hath no sin ; as aforesaid : and christ condemn the pharisee that justified himself , and justified the confessing publican ? but it 's like he will say that he did not mean , that any man doth keep all the commands , but that he can do it , tho' he do not . ans . i again say , 1. he can as to natural strength , if he were but perfectly and constantly willing : but it cannot be that he should be so willing without grace , and grace is not perfect in this life . 2. the more he boasteth of his power to keep all gods laws , the more he condemneth himself that can and will not . 3. and frustra fit potentia quae nunquam & a nemine reducitur in actum : if he confess that no man doth it , he must confess such a moral impossibility as the prophet meant , that said , can the leopard change his spots , or the blackmore his skin ? then may they that are accustomed to do evil , learn to do well . but perhaps he meant not that it is possible to keep all the commands , for all our lives , but for some short time ? i answer , 1. while a man hath the use of his reason , he doth not reach the commanded degree of faith , love , joy , heavenlyness , one moment of time : but indeed , when a man is asleep , in a swoun , an apoplexy , stark mad , &c. he may for that time break no command , nor keep any . but perhaps he speaketh but of sincere obedience , and not of absolute sinless perfection . ans . if so , he is a deceiver to feign that we deny it : but their doctrine of perfection and supererogation is contrary . obj. but he speaketh not what man can do without grace , but by it's assistance . ans . grace maketh no man absolutely sinless , and perfect in this life . let him know , that protestants do not only say that man by gods grace may keep gods commandments sincerely , ( tho' not sinlesly and perfectly , ) but that no man of age and reason shall be saved that doth not so . 2. and that tho' all our obedience be imperfect , the imperfections are pardoned , and our obedience accepted and rewarded , for the merits of the perfect obedience , sacrifice , and intercession of our saviour . the one and twentieth accused point . that faith only justifieth , and that good works are not absolutely necessary to salvation . ans . many wordy controversies are made about things , that in sence men are commonly agreed in . 1. we all believe gods word , that they were deceived that thought they could be justified either by the law of innocency or nature , or the law of moses , or any meritorious works of their own , without , or as a supplement to the sacrifice , merits and free grace of christ our saviour , and faith in him . 2. by faith is meant christianity : in the gospel it is all one to be a believer , a disciple of christ , and to be a christian. the christian faith is that which is exprest in the baptismal covenant , believing in and giving up our selves to , god the father , son , and holy ghost : to christ as our prophet , priest and king , to be saved by his merits and free grace : and this is put in opposition to the works of adam's or moses law , or any other that are conceited to suffice and merit , without the foresaid redemption by christ . and is not this the true doctrine of all true christians ? 2. these good works that are our obedience to the law of christ , are but the performance of our baptismal covenant , and the fruits of faith , without which it is dead hypocrisie , and are of absolute necessity to salvation , to all that have time to do them . against the charge , that we are sinners deserving hell , we are justified by christ believed in : against the accusation , that we are infidels , ungodly , hypocrites , we must be justified by our faith , godliness , and works , or perish . but we do also hold , 1. that if a man be convicted , as the theif on the cross , and should die suddenly , no outward good which he cannot do , is absolutely necessary to his salvation , but only his inward faith , love , and repentance , and confession if able . 2. we do firmly hold , that works done with a conceit of obliging god by merit , in commutative justice , or as conceited sufficient without a saviour , and the pardon of their failings , are such as more further damnation than salvation , at least in those that hear the gospel . 3. and we are no papists , and therefore believe not that ignorant words of prayer in a tongue not understood , and wearing reliques , and going on pilgrimages , and needless confessing to priests , and subjection to an universal vice-christ , and living upon the blood of saints , murdering the living , and praying to the dead , and the sons honouring their days , relicks and monuments , whom their fathers burnt or persecuted ; these are not good works necessary to salvation , as is plain , math. 23. and revel . 14.17 , 18 , &c. we do , with paul , renounce all works of our own , that are thought to make the reward to be of debt and not of grace , and that are set in the least opposition or competition with christs merits , or any place save commanded subordination to him . the two and twentieth accused point . that no good works are meritorious . ans . the word merit is ambiguous , and so abused by papists , that indeed the protestants are shyer of it than the fathers were , lest the use of it should cherish the abuse . 1. there is merit of man , and of god. 2. and this in commutative justice ( conceited , ) or only in governing distributive justice . 3. and this is either according to the law of innocency or moses , or according to the law of christ . now protestants hold , 1. as to the name , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , worthy and worthiness , are scripture words , and may be used ; and merit is but of the same signification , and we condemn not the ancients that so used it : but the worst sence must not be cherished . 2. do they hold , 1. that no creature can merit of god in commutative justice , that giveth quid pro quo to his benefit : god receiveth not from man or angels ; unless he will call acceptance and complacence receiving . 3. none but christ merited of strict governing justice , according to the law of senceless innocence , nor by any works that will save man from the charge of sin and desert of death . 3. all at age that will be saved , must have good works according to their capacity , for christ is the author of salvation , to all those that obey him . heb. 5.9 ▪ tho' they obey not an unknown priest at rome . but all these works are our obedience to christs own healing government , such as the laws of a physician to the sick. and we all agree , that he will judge ( that is , justifie or condemn in judgment ) all men according to their works , that is , according to the law and it's promulgation , by which in their several ages and nations he governed them . 4. your own doctors that know what they say , tell us , that by merit , they mean nothing but the rewardable quality of their acts , related to gods promise through christs merits . and doth any protestant church deny this ? the three and twentieth accused point . that faith once had , cannot possibly be lost . ans . still confused slander and deceit . protestants hold , 1. that the faith not rooted , prevalent and saving , is frequently lost , such as you call sides informis . 2. that even sincere faith may be lost , as to the act for some little time , that is , suspended in a deliquium , as peters and theirs , luk. 24. that said , we trusted this had been he , &c. 3. that many lose to the death some degree of their habitual faith. 4. but they differ in the rest , just as you do among your selves , dominicans and jesuits . 1. some think that no one ( at age at least ) in a state of such faith as at present would have saved him , doth ever totally lose it . 2. some think that many have but such loseable grace as adam had . 1. as being not elect to salvation , and therefore not in gods decree of preservation and perseverance , 2. as having a faith not rooted and confirmed : and that these may fall from a justified state : but that , 1. the elect. 2. nor the confirmed , never fall away . this was austins judgment , and his followers , of which see vossii theses . and is that jesuit honest that feigneth this proper to the protestants , where the controversie is the same among themselves ? the four and twentieth accused point . that god by his will and inevitable decree , hath ordained from all eternity , who shall be damned and who saved . ans . what a false deceiver is this , that would make us believe , that this is proper to the protestants , when it is the common doctrine not only of the dominicans , but of the very jesuits themselves , and all their church . 1. none of them dare say , that men are damned or saved without gods foreknowledge , nor against his absolute will , by overcoming his power . 2. none of them dare say , that this fore-knowledge of god was not from eternity , but that he knew one day what he knew not before . 3. all that the jesuits themselves say , is , that god decreed it upon this fore-knowledge , and that he hath a scientia media , what will come to pass , positis quibusdam , if such and such things be done by man ; and that this fore-knowledge in order of nature is before the decree , but both from eternity . but cardin cameracensis ( petrus de aliaco , ) hath irrefragably confuted this imposing priority and posteriority of act on god ; tho' i think some divine acts as denominated only relatively from the order of objects , may be so distinguished . 4. in all this , we say not , that god hath by his will and decree ordained from eternity , ( or in time ) that men shall sin , or will and choose evil , but only who shall be damned for sin , which god never willed or caused , but foresaw ; not as if he were an idle spectator , but a willing suspender of his own acts , so far as to leave sinners to their self-determining wills . 5. but god being the cause of good , and men and devils of evil , our salvation is of him , and our destruction of our selves ; and therefore god decreeth not men's salvation or sanctification , meerly on foresight of our faith , but decreeth our faith it self : sin he permitteth , but faith , he effecteth , and decreeth to effect . 6. as for them that feign that we say , that god decreeth that some shall be saved and others damned however they live ; it is but the dictates of the father of lies : we say that god at once decreeth the end , and the means ; as he doth not decree that men shall live though they neither eat nor drink , nor that they shall have corn , though they neither plow nor sow , but that they shall eat and drink , and live thereby ; and that they shall plow and sow , and mannure the soil , and so have corn. so god doth at once decree , [ that this and that man shall have the means of grace , ( especially a saviour and the gospel , ) and shall faithfully use them , and be sanctified by them , and sincerely obey god , and overcome the world , the flesh and the devil , and persevere to the end , and that for christs merits he will give them the grace of his spirit , and pardon their sins , and bring them to glory . ] all this is our decree of god. but he doth not decree that men shall sin , that they may be damned : for sin is no work of god , nor a means appointed by him for men's damnation , no more than a righteous king doth make men traytors or murderers , that he may hang them . but he justly denyeth his grace to many that forfeit it by willful resistance , disobedience , and contempt ; though he take not the forfeiture of his elect. he is deceived and wrongeth god that maketh him the author of men's sin : and so doth he that feigneth god to send his son to redeem the world , and his word and ministers to call them , and his spirit to renew them , and all this at random , not knowing whether it may not be all lost , or leaving it chiefly to the free-will of them , whose wills are contrarily inclined and vitiated ? whether christ and all his preparations shall be lost ? the plain christian that holdeth but to these two points , that our destruction is of our selves , but our help and salvation of god , and that god is the first and chief cause of all good , and men and devils of all evil , is liker to be wise with sobriety and safety , than the ignorant intruders into gods secrets , and the prating calumniators that speak evil of the things which they understand not ; and reproach those that speak not as rashly and ignorantly as themselves , even in some equivocal unexplained words methinks papists should be so kind to god , as seeing the pope can tell who is a damned heretick , and to be kill'd , ( even all that believe not in the pope , or are not his subjects , ) and who is in purgatory , and how long he shall stay there : or how many years torment the pope can shorten : they should allow god to know a little more , and that not as one whose power and grace is conquered by impotent worms , against his absolute will. the five and twentieth accused point . that every one ought infallibly to assure himself of his salvation , and to believe that he is of the number of the predestinate . ans . i would fain excuse the man as far as i can , and therefore i hope , that as the man was excusable that did eat snakes for snigs , ( or eels , ) so he read some pamphlet of an antimonian , either crisp or saltmarsh , or some other such , or talkt with some of their silly novices , and thought he had convers'd with the reformed catholicks , or read the confessions of the reformed churches . the first sentence is a fundamental truth , and a damnable falshood , as the equivocal words are variously understood . and is it not pity that the priests of the infallible church , should put things so different into the same words , and that in an accusation of so many churches and nations ; when yet god himself is feigned by them to write by his spirit so unintelligibly , that without these doctors skilful exposition , it is but like to make men hereticks , ( that is , adversaries to the pope and his clergy . ) to assure our selves of our salvation [ may mean , to give all diligence to make our salvation infallibly sure : this every one ought to do . ] or it may mean , that every man ought to believe it as an infallible truth , that he shall be saved . ] the next sentence seemeth to make this his meaning in the first : which if it be , he is a false calumniator of the reformed churches . but if the first be his meaning , and he deny it , he is an open enemy to man's salvation . what is all the scripture for , and all our religion , but to make sure of our salvation ? 2 pet. 1. 10. give all diligence to make your calling and election sure . and if no man can be sure , to what purpose hath god made so many promises of it , expressing the conditions , ( to them that believe , that love god , that forsake all for him , ) if no man can know whether he perform the condition , and that he is within this promise ? why doth god lay down so many signs to difference the children of god from the children of the devil , if they cannot be discerned ? sure heaven and hell be not like ; and yet are the heirs of heaven and hell undistinguishable ? is the image of god and the devil so like that none can know them asunder ? no , not the man that hath had them both ? and why doth god so aften call on believers to rejoyce , if they cannot know whether they shall be in heaven and hell for ever ? if you say , he is not sure to persevere , many papists grant that the confirmed may . and why may not bradford , hooper , sanders , and thousands else , that are dying by the sacred blood-thirsty church , be assured when they are dying , that they have forsaken life and all for christ . but oportet mendacem esse memorem still : why do you not tell men when the pope is selling them pardons , and saving them out of purgatory , that when all 's done they can have no assurance of salvation ? yea , that they ought not to endeavour to make it sure ? and whose now is the safe church and religion , if a papist can never be sure that he shall be saved in your church and religion ; nor sure that he is in a state of salvation ? that is , that he is a true christian , and hath charity , and is an honest man ? 2. a man that hath got true and clear evidence that he hath a confirmed faith , and hope , and loveth god , as god above all , ought consequently to take it for an infallible truth , that so dying , he shall be saved : else he must either give god the lie , that hath promised it , or he must be supposed to be deceived when he thinketh that he believeth and loveth god. but that every man must believe that he is of the number of the predestinate to salvation , is a damnable doctrine , because it requireth all the millions of ungodly men to believe a lie , yea to believe it as a divine truth , and to make god both the author of the lie , and of the deceit of our selves by this command . and when millions are not of the number of sanctified , and therefore not of the predestinate , if they so continue , what can more harden them in their impenitence , than to tell them that they must all believe that they shall be saved ? how many hundred protestant books , and thousand sermons tell the world that it is the preachers earnest drift , to save wicked men from such presumption , which makes men call them terrible preachers ? every man is bound to believe gods promise to be true , and that he himself shall be saved if he be a true penitent sanctified christian , and so continue , and that else he shall be damned ; and not to distrust god as unwilling to continue the grace he hath given him . the six and twentieth accused point . that every man hath not an angel guardian or keeper . ans . 1. we hold that every true christian , even the least , hath his angel who beholdeth the face of his father in heaven : and that angels are gods ministring spirits , for the good of his elect ; and that they guard us and pitch their tents about us , and bear us up in their hands , and keep us in and from danger , and rejoyce at the conversion of a sinner , and that we live in invisible communion with them , and shall be like them . 2. but whether every christian have one angel to himself alone , that guardeth no other , or one angel guard hundreds or thousands : or whether some ( as lower officers are set over a few , and others as general officers are over whole kingdoms , ) we leave to the determination of the infallible pope , who is bolder with gods secrets than we dare be . 3. but till now , i thought they had not been so presumptuous , as to assert that every man hath a guardian angel. where is there one word of god for this ? is every man an heir of salvation , or one of christs little ones , or under his promise ? had cain and judas such angels , and all the sodomites ? christ made it an argument of terrour to persecutors , that they offend such as had such angels with god : and dare you paint them as devils , and burn them , or murder them by the dragons dragoons , if you believe that every man hath such a guardian angel ? surely saints , tho' called hereticks , have such . the seven and twentieth accused point . that the holy angels pray not for us , nor know our thoughts and desires on earth . ans . a false accusation . we say not that they pray not for us , nor that they know not our desires , nor any of our thoughts . we say that angels are no such strangers to saints and sincere godliness , as not to know that all godly men desire the hallowing of gods name , the coming of his kingdom , and the doing of his will on earth as it is done in heaven : they that know what grace is , and what our prayers are , know much of our desires : and we do not think that angels know less of our thoughts than devils , who we feel to our trouble are not altogether unacquainted with them . and those angels that rejoyce at a sinners conversion , are not unacquainted with it . and as to their praying , we know not how it is that angels express their desires to god ; but we all agree that they desire our welfare , and therefore may be said to pray for it , if all notified desire be prayer . we suppose that they know and love us , far better than we know and love each other . but we read that the heretical gnosticks , or their like , did deceive men , [ by voluntary humility , and worshipping of angels , intruding into those things which they had not seen , vainly puft up by a fleshly mind , ] col. 2.18 , 19. therefore we dare not pretend to papal infallibility , nor boldly to conjecture , how far it is that our thoughts are known to angels , nor how much they are ignorant of them ; nor when , or how oft , or how far , or in what manner they pray for us : how far particularly , and how far only generally , &c. had this knowledge been needful to us , god would have revealed it : much less do we know what angel of what departed soul of a saint hath the care or charge of our sheep , and of our cattel , and who of our pigs and geese , and who of our fruits and corn ; abundance of these things we leave to the infallible church : as we do their acquaintance in purgatory , while our acquaintance and conversation in heaven , can reach no higher than the prospect which we have in and by the glass of scripture revelation . the eight and twentieth accused point . that we may not pray to them . ans . 1. we may desire living saints to pray for us , and this may be called praying to them : so a child prayeth to his father or master . but we pray not to dead saints nor angels : 1. because we have an hundred commands to pray to god , and not one to pray to them , and where there is no law , there is no transgression or sin. therefore while we are sure it is no sin to forbear it , and know not but it is sin to do it , we go the safe way : if they say , it is against the popes law or his clergy's , we say with paul , it is a small thing to us to be judged of man , ( who can but kill our bodies , ) we have one that judgeth us , even the lord. let the pope damn us if he can . 2. as the first commandment forbiddeth us to have any god but one , so the second forbiddeth us to worship so as the heathens did their idols , because it is bodily interpretative idolatry and scandal : but the heathens used to pray to their under deities , whom they judged to be much like that which the papists judge of angels , and praying to invisible spirits is to imitate them as scandalously as praying toward images : no wonder therefore that you so usually leave out the second commandment . 3. gods word is the rule of all acceptable religious worship , ( tho' but a general rule in many modes and circumstances , ) and therefore we fear swerving from it . 4. angels themselves never demanded it , nor christ bespake it for them , yea , they twice forbad it john : see thou do it not . 5. angels being more holy than we , are more for the glory of god , and the hatred of creature arrogance and idolatry ; and as god calleth himself specially jealous against bodily worship like the idolaters , in the second commandment , so angels are more jealous against it than we are . 6. as angels said , see thou do it not , so contrarily satan tempted christ , with the offer of the kingdoms and glory of the world , to fall down and worship him . therefore we had rather hearken to the angels than to devils : and fear , they that do otherwise , worship devils for angels , because only devils have sought such worship . and the devil oft turneth himself as into an angel of light to deceive , as his ministers do into ministers of righteousness . 7. we know not when angels hear us , and when they do not : and therefore know not when and how to pray to them . 8. as we are sure that god would have bid us do it , if he would have us do it , so we know that he is all sufficient to tell them what and when to doe for us ; and to pray to him is the way to secure their service . 9. and we know that there is one mediator between god and man , whose intercession is sufficient . 10. and we know that christians praying to angels and separated souls , greatly hardeneth the heathen world that pray to separated souls , and daemons that are their sub-deities . 11. and when these men say not , we must pray to angels , but we may do it ; what horrid murderers are they , that will burn , kill , and damn men , for not doing all that they think they may do , without any must or divine obligation ? why take they it not at best , as part of their works of supererrogation ? 12. the deceiver prophaning the scripture , 1. puts jacobs benediction desiring the angels guard on his son , to be a prayer to angels . yea , when the fathers say , that angel was christ himself . 2. and jacobs words to the angel that appeared to him , to be a reason for our praying to unseen spirits : if they appear to us , we shall the better know what and when to speak to them . the nine and twentieth accused point . that the angels cannot help us . ans . this is too gross stating of controversies for a collier or a cobler , tho' not for a doctor of infallible church . 1. we say , that not only an angel , but a man , an ass , ( as balaams , ) a blast of wind , flies , frogs , lice ( as in egypt , ) can help us , when god sendeth them to help us . 2. we believe that angels are specially empowred and willing for it . so that they are gods eminent ministring spirits for the good of his elect. 3. but we believe that they can do nothing for us , but what god empowreth and commissioneth them to do . he that curseth those that trust in man , and make flesh their arm , instead of trusting god , will so curse them that so trust in angels . but yet we may and must trust man and angels , according to their several measures of gods authorizing and enabling them . the great mercies of protection and assistance that god giveth us by angels , is the matter of much of our daily thanks to god : and i am daily thankful to angels themselves ; and i think i love them better than any friends on earth , because they are better , and love god better : and i am the willinger to die , because i shall go to the world of love , where as god and christ is love , so angels love god , and we for his sake , better than i love my self , while our papists that pray to angels , devour the blood of saints . the thirtieth accused point . that no saint deceased , hath after appeared to any on earth . ans . a meer false calumny . what protestant confessions have any such article ? how know we what hath been done of that kind in all the world to this day ? read but dr. more , and mr. glanvils books of apparitions , and mr. ambrose , and mr. lawrences books of our communion with angels . read zanchius , luther , melaucton , manlius , lavalu , &c. and you may see that this is no protestant assertion . we know that christ appeared to saul , and that many bodies of saints arose at christs death , and appeared to many : and what the witch of endor showed as samuel , we know not : we only say , 1. that it is much liker that apparitions are oftest made by devils or bad spirits that dwell in the lower regions , than that blessed spirits come from heaven . 2. but yet seeing angels thence appear , we cannot say that holy souls never do . 3. but that god will not have it to be any ordinary or trusty means for men's salvation : for we cannot know when it is a holy soul , and when a devil : and they that will not believe moses and the prophets , ( and christ , ) neither will they believe tho' one rose from the dead : it 's no article of our faith , that they ever did appear or not . and if these men think otherwise , why must this opinion more than ten thousand such , be obtruded as necessary on all others ? the one and thirtieth accused point . that the saints deceased , know not what passeth here on earth . ans . confusion and calumny . there is knowledge immediate by intention , and mediate by notification from others . and there is knowledge perfect , and in part . 1. we take not on us to know the extent of the knowledge of separated souls . and these proud infallible men know no more than we , but so much less , in that they know not their own ignorance : yet neither lilly , nor any astrologer , nor conjurer , that ever i heard of , that pretendeth the greatest acquaintance with spirits , did ever pretend to make their opinions of them necessary to salvation ; nor to kill all dissenters as hereticks , but the vice-christ and his church , we cannot know all that they pretend to know . and why must we needs know whether ever such souls appeared ? if they did , we will try what they are by the word of god , which is our rule . and why must we know how much they know ? we know that they are not omniscient , nor omnipresent . and how much they know by present intention , not one of these pretenders know . that they know more than we , and know much by the notices of angels or one another , and specially of the general state of christs kingdom on earth , we make no doubt : and what christ himself maketh known to them , we know not . o! what sort of men are these , that forbid us to read the word of god , and yet obtrude on us ( on dismal penalties , ) so many things more than all the bible doth contain ! the two and thirtieth accused point . that the saints pray not for us . ans . equivocal and false . 1. all saints on earth pray for us : it is part of the communion of saints . 2. we say of the prayer of departed souls , the same that we said before of the prayer of angels . their general requests for the church and against enemies , proveth not to us what extent their knowledge of particulars hath , nor what particulars they ask , nor that every christian can say that they pray for him , and that in his particular cases . the three and thirtieth accused point . that we ought not to beseech god , to grant our prayers in favour of the saints , or their merits : nor do we receive any benefit thereby . ans . this is before answered to the 17th . accusation . i told you that we hold , that god blesseth children for their holy parents sakes , their relation making the welfare of the one to be the others : and god blessed others for josephs sake , and sometimes preserveth whole countries for the sake of the godly there : and on what account , and how far , i will not again repeat . and the union and communion of saints in heaven and earth are so near , that i dare not say that god doth any good to any one faithful soul , that is not in some respect for the sake of all the rest ; as the cure of an aking tooth is for the sake of all the body : that is , 1. for the good of the whole . 2. and done out of love to the whole . but this will not satisfie confounding deceivers . no doubt it is dead saints that he meaneth : and what he meaneth by merits , i suppose he knoweth not himself ; or else he would have told us : how far we own , or abhor the pretence of merits , i shewed before . all saints are saved by the full sufficient merits of christ , and have none at all of their own , unless the amiableness of grace freely given them be called their merits , as a thankful child more deserveth his fathers love , ( that is , is more lovely ) than a rebel that scorneth him ; and a piece of gold deserveth to be esteemed above dirt ; and a nightingale above a toad . yea their own jesuit vasquez , not only denieth all merit of god in commutative justice , ( as all save romans and a few such sots do , ) but also in point of distributive justice , by which he seemeth to deny merit more than protestants do . for by merit we mean but moral aptitude , for the reward of a free benefactor who is also rector , when the ordering of a free gift suspended on official conditions , is sapientially made a means of procuring obedience . whatever god hath promised to give us for other men's sake , that he will so give . but our faith shall not go beyond his promise : if god have told us any where , who saint nicolas , and st. becket , and st. christopher , and st. joan , and st. jane , and st. winifrid are , and what they were to us more than others , and that they were real saints , and that he hath promised us mercy for their sakes , and bid us pray to him for their meriting for us ; let them shew us this in his word . but if it be only the popes command and promise , let his subjects obey and trust it . we are certain that none but saints are saved : and why then must i go to god , for the merits of st. nicholas , or st. bridget , any more than for the merits of all the rest , which are many millions ? as god is jealous of his honour against idols , so is he of christs honour against antichrists and false mediators , and we must do nothing that seemeth to ascribe any part of christs proper office of mediation to any creature : and doth it not seem so , if we pray , lord hear , pardon and save me for the merits of becket or bridget , &c. for what more can we say of the merits of christ ? but still mark , that these men say not that , we must pray thus for the merit of saints , but that we may : and must all be burnt or damned that will not do all that the pope thinks they maey do ? that we receive no benefit by them , is a forged calumny and not our doctrine : we believe that the jews had benefit by abraham , moses , david , when they were dead : and that the reformed churches have had benefit by the blood of the martyrs , shed by the blood-thirsty papists to this day ; and that the whole church hath benefit by the writings of chrysostom , nazianzene , augustine , &c. luther , calvin , &c. the four and thirtieth accused point . that we ought not expresly to pray them to pray or intercede to god for us . ans . there was enough said of this before , about praying to angels . when god bids us pray to dead men's souls , we will do it . till then your saying we may do it , proveth neither may nor must to us . why then cannot you keep your [ may ] to your selves ? never a conjurer in england can tell us , how far souls in heaven can hear , nor where and when they are present or within hearing ; nor which of them are so , whether all , or one , or which ; no nor whether those saints that understood not latin on earth , do understand latin prayers sent up from earth , wh●●● the speaker himself understandeth them not . alas ! christian reader , what a dark uncertain worship , like charming , would this infallible church compell men to offer the most holy god , while they accuse his word of ensnaring dangerous obscurity . we will pray to those alive , that we know do hear us , to pray to god for us , for the sake of christ : but it 's but profanation of the scripture , to say , that because luke 16 , a man in hell supposed to see and hear abraham , did pray him to send lazarus on earth ; therefore we that neither see nor hear the dead , should pray to them . but dives prayed in vain , and so may you . and what if those souls should prove to be in purgatory ? must we pray both to them that are in purgatory , and for them also ? and is it certain that the pope and all his church , are sure which saint is not in purgatory , when all are there or worse ( say they , ) that ever sinned and did not pennance for it ? the five and thirtieth accused point . that the bones or relicks of the saints are not to be kept or reserved ; no virtue proceeding from them after they be once dead . ans . 1. where hath god commanded us to keep them , for the virtue that proceedeth from them ? 2. we deny not but a man may keep a skeleton or skull , and if it be his fathers , we will accuse him no higher than of imprudence and passion . but what proof have you of virtue proceeding from bones , till you see it by experience ? is it any appointed means for god to work miracles by ? and how know you that all were saints that the pope calleth so ? had all the debauched popes of anno 800 , 900 , 1000 , skill infallible to know saints from hypocrites ? and hath god promised virtue to all their bones ? and are you sure that they are their bones ? alas ! what numerous tricks have men to trust to , to deceive themselves and others , that yet will not obey christs plain commands , and trust his promise ! the six and thirtieth accused point . that creatures cannot be sanctified , or made more holy than they are already of their own nature . ans . a down-right slander . 1. we believe that all men that shall be saved , are or shall be sanctified , and made more holy than they are of their own nature . 2. we believe that to the pure , all things are pure , and are sanctified by the word and prayer : and that whatever we do , we should do it to the glory of god : and when a christian devoteth and useth his food , estate , and all to gods service , it is sanctified . 3. we believe that a temple , a font , a table , and utensils , may well be separated from common uses to gods worship : and that separation is a sanctifying of them . to be sanctified or holy , is but to be separated from common use , to gods special service , according to the nature of the thing used . 1. godly men are sanctifyed and saints , because by soul-consent and devotion , and practice , they are sincerely separated to god , from the slavery of the world , the flesh and the devil ; being habitually and predominantly lovers of god and holiness , by the grace of christ and the holy ghost . 2. professed christians are sacramentally sanctifyed , when by outward baptism , they are devoted to god in christ . 3. even bad ministers are externally sanctifyed , as separated and consecrated to a holy office. 4. temples , and books , and church utensils are sanctifyed , when by men they are separated from common and unclean usage , to gods worship . so that tho' holiness in all be this separation to god , yet , as the persons and things are not the same , so neither is their holiness in specie , but only in genere . and there is a superstitious and an idolatrous mock-holiness , when men will devote that to god and holy uses which he abhorreth , or accepteth not , nor ever required of them : and say as the hypocrite pharisees , it is corban , who required this at their hands ? the hypocrites and idolaters have always been forward for this unrequired mock-holiness , to quiet their consciences , instead of real saving holiness . it 's cheaper and easier to have holy-water , holy-oil , holy-spittle , holy-images , holy-crosses , holy-vestments of many sorts , holy-altars , holy-shrines , and pilgrimages , holy-bones , and chips and places , than to have holy-hearts and lives , which love god , and grace , and heaven , above all this world and life it self , and by the spirit mortify all fleshly lusts . the seven and thirtieth accused point . that children may be saved by their parents faith , without the sacrament of holy baptism . ans . can you unriddle this charge ? whether the man mean that they may be saved by baptism without their parents faith ? or that both must be conjoyned as necessary to salvation ? he will not tell us that . 1. that god hath made abundance of promises to the seed of the faithful , and taketh them into the covenant of grace with their parents , and saith that they are holy , 1 cor. 7.14 ; protestants have copiously proved against anabaptists and papists . but it is gods mercy , and christs merit , grace , and covenant , that they are saved by : the parents faith is but that qualification and relation , which maketh them receptive and capable of this saving grace . the parenrs faith saveth themselves , but as the moral ▪ qualifying disposition and condition of gods saving gift : and to infants it is required , not that they be believers , but believers seed , devoted to god by parents or pro-parents , whose they are . 2. we doubt not , but regularly , where it may be had , this dedication should be solemnly made by baptismal covenanting : ask the anabaptists whether we hold not this . but we believe , that as private marriage maketh husband and wife before god , but solemn matrimony is necessary for publick order , without which they may be punished as fornicators : so if an infant be the child of one believing parent , dedicated to god , he is holy and in the same covenant with the parent , ( and were else unclean : ) but that before the church , he is not regularly to be judged in covenant till it be solemnized in christs appointed way by baptism . still excepting where baptism cannot be had ; and there even sober papists say , that the votum , the vow , or desire , will serve . and this necessity is manifold : 1. when the child dieth , before baptism could be had . 2. where there is no capable person to do it , or that will not utterly deprave it . 3. when the parent is an antipoedo-baptist , and omitteth it , thinking it a sin. if they think that the infant is not saved by the parents faith , why should they think , that believing parents children are damned because the parent erreth in such an external thing ? but papists , that turn other parts of holiness into form and ceremony , and make a religion of the carkass mortifyed , would here also perswade people that the very outward act of washing , is of so great moment with god , that though it were the holyest persons or their seed , a mistake , or a delay , or surprize of death , will damn them if they be not baptized , ( or martyred . ) this tendeth to subject all to the mercy and dominion of the priests , that they may seem more necessary to salvation than they are , or at least their external forms , by lay-men or women baptizers administred . constantine himself , the churches great deliverer , was not baptized till near his death : are they sure that he was till then in a state of damnation , and had been damned if he had so died ? methinks in gratitude , the church of rome , should have cast him no lower than the torments of purgatory . the eight and thirtieth accused point . that the sacrament of confirmation is not necessary , nor to be used . ans . you may so mean by the word [ sacrament ] and [ confirmation , ] as that we do deny them . and you may so mean , as that we are more for them than you are . 1. if by a sacrament , you mean one of gods institution , appointed by him to be his solemn delivery and investiture in a state of christianity or necessary grace ; and if by confirmation you mean arch-bishops anointing infants , or ignorant children , or persons , with hallowed oyl , compounded once a year , and his ceremonious boxing them , and such other formalities ; then we deny that such confirmation is any such sacrament , nor is necessary , or to be used ; because holy things are not to be mortyfied and profaned . 2. but if by a [ sacrament ] you mean , but a solemn renewal of our covenant with god in christ ; and by confirmation you must , that those baptized in infancy should at due age , understandingly , under the pastors hand or care , profess their serious personal consent to that covenant which by others they imputatively made in baptism ; we are so far from denying this , that we think till this solemn personal covenanting , and owning their baptism with understanding and seeming seriousness , be made , the entrance into the state of adult church communion , the woful corruption of the church is never to be well healed ; but while one side turn confirmation into a dead shadow and mockery , and the anabaptists scandalized heresie , are all for rebaptizing instead of confirmation , prophanation and schism will gratifie satan . you know , that the english bishops practise confirmation , and the liturgy describeth it as i here do : and are the church of england no protestants ? and divers protestant non-conformists here have about 29 and 30 years ago , written full treatises for confirmation . the nine and thirtieth accused point . that the bread of the supper of our lord was but a figure , or remembrance of the body of christ , received by faith , and not his true and very body . ans . 1. protestants hold , that as all words are to be taken according to the usage of the subject or science that they are used about , physical terms physically ; rhetorical rhetorically , geometrical , astronomical , arithemetical , accordingly , law terms according to law , and moral and theological terms morally and theologically ; so , if as naturalists , we ask what the matter of that sacrament is , we say bread and wine : if as moralists and theologues , we say , it is the body and blood of christ : as if you ask of a gold and silver coyn , what it is in a natural sence , we say , it is gold and silver : but if you ask in a civil , political and law-sence , we say , it is a 20 s. piece , a jacobus , a carolus piece , or it is a crown , or a shilling . so we say that sacramentally and morally , and relatively , that which is naturally true bread and wine , is yet also the true body and blood of christ : and we say not that it is only a figure and remembrance , but it is such a figure as is representatively his very flesh and blood : and it is to deliver to us , and invest us in a spiritual vnion with christ himself , and right to his saving grace . a proxy that as representative of a prince marrieth a foreign lady , is more than a remembrance ; and so is his image , if it be used in the marriage . a key , or a twig and turf , by which investiture in house and land is delivered , and a staff and ring , by which bishopricks were of old delivered by investiture , are all more than a bare remembrance . 2. as to your implied doctrine of transubstantiation , that after the words of consecration , there is left no real bread and wine , it is copiously and undenyably proved a novel doctrine , so monstrous , as if it had been formed to engage mankind in a renunciation of christianity , humanity , and common senses , and to be an obliging profession of this renunciation . it is enough for us to believe , that after the true consecration , it is no more meer bread and wine , ( as after the coyning a 20 s. piece , a crown , or a noble , or an angel , it is not meer gold , but the said named coyn. ) but if ever satan shewed himself a dragon , under the name of an angel of light , it was when he made the canons of the 4th . laterane general council under innocent the 3d. that set up transubstantiation , and the murdering of all that deny it , of deposing princes that will not exterminate them . this adjuncts and effects will shew the difference between this counterfeit sacrament and christ . christs sacrament was instituted to be a sacrament and covenant of dearest love between god and man , and one another : but as satan , when he covenanteth with witches , to sell him their souls , must have it sealed by his sucking their blood , so the seal that he set to the monster of transubstantiation , was that his church and it must live by the blood of those that own it not . but what will convince men , that by noise and worldly interest have conquered all that is proper to a man , yea , or a living sensible animal . 1. they pretend christs words , this is my body , when they know that it was his ordinary parabolical phrase , and they will take this physically and singularly as different from all the rest . tho' he say , i am the door , i am the vine , and ye are the branches , and my father is the husband-man , and the field is the world , and the tares are the children of the wicked one , and the harvest is the end of the world , and the reapers are the angels ; they that received the seed by the high-way , are they that , &c. and so he speaketh usually . 2. they know that in 1 cor. 11. paul calls it bread after the consecration , three times in the three next verses : and would they have burnt paul for a heretick ? what can they devise against these plain words ? 3. they sentence all to death and hell that will believe their eyes , taste , feeling or any sense of themselves , and all others , that perceiveth true bread and wine after consecration . 4. hereby they make god as creator , the grand deceiver of the world , by deluding all men's senses . 5. and hereby they overthrow all certainty of faith divine and humane . for sense and humanity are before faith and christianity , and their perception presupposed : and if sense be presupposed fallible , yea false , faith must needs be so : for we are not sure that ever we saw a book , or man , or light , or heard man speak , or what he saith : and how can he believe gods word or the popes , or priests , that is not sure that ever he heard or saw them ? 6. they feign every sottish filthy priest , to work more miracles at his pleasure , by his transubstantiating , than christ or his apostles did . 7. they enable a drunken priest to undoe bakers and vintners , by saying the words of consecration intentione consecrandi over all their bread and wine : and then they have none left . 8. they feign christ to have eaten his own body by his body , and either that the same body did eat it self , or that he had two bodies that did eat neither . 9. they feign that his whole body did eat his broken body , and that his disciples did eat it , before it was broken ; and drank his shed blood before it was shed . 10. when two general councils c.p. the 5th . and nice the 2d . tell us , that christs body in heaven now is not flesh and blood , and paul saith 1 cor. 15 , that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god , yet they maintain that christ hath had these 1600 years a body of flesh and blood. 11. they feign abundance of accidents without subject substances , that are the accidents ( quantity , quality , &c. ) of nothing . 12. they feign a sottish priest to make his maker day by day . 13. when christ saith , he that eateth my flesh , and drinketh my blood , shall live for ever ; they feign the most wicked men to eat his flesh and drink his blood. 14. they feign mice to eat god. 15. they feign every wicked man to eat his god , and digest part of him into his own flesh and blood , and cast out the other part into the jakes . 16. they teach men to commit idolatry , by worshiping bread as god. 17. all this is enforced by fire and sword , against the blood of holy men . 18. all this is novel heresie , contrary to the doctrine of the universal church , for a thousand years after christ and more . 19. it 's contrary to paul's quere , 1 cor. 12. are all workers of miracles ? understood negatively . 20. it 's feigned a sufficient ground to depose princes , and destroy whole lands . but these things , and specially the forged miracles of the transubstantiation , are more largely confuted in many treatises . what hope of ending any controversies with papists , that agree not with us in the credit of senses as heathens do ? can we bring any controversie to a plainer issue , than to all men's common senses , about due objects and due mediums ? and is there any disputing where no principle is agreed on ? the fortieth accused point . that we ought to receive under both kinds , and that one alone is not sufficient . ans . it concerneth them that deny this , either to keep men from reading gods word , or to tell them it is false , and the pope's is true that contradicteth it : what is a flat defyance of god or his word , if this be not ? christ saith , math. 26.27 , 28. drink ye all of it : for this is my blood of the new-testament , which is shed for many , for the remission of sins . and st. paul saith , 1 cor. 11.23 . i have received of the lord that which i delivered to you : that the lord jesus , the night in which he was betrayed , took bread , &c. vers . 25. after the same manner also he took the cup , when he had supped , saying , this cup is the new-testament in my blood : this do ye as oft as you drink it , in remembrance of me : for as often as ye eat this bread , and drink this cup , ye do shew the lord's death 'till he come : wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread , and drink this cup of the lord unworthily , shall be guilty of the body and blood of the lord : but let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that bread , and drink of that cup. these words do so plainly say , it is bread after the consecration , and do so plainly require all to drink of the cup , as well as to eat of the bread , that the infallible clergy are fain to accuse the light of darkness , the text of deceitful obscurity , till the pope and his prelates have expounded it , by giving it the lye : just like the knave in ignoramus's play , that proclaimed the man to be mad , from whom he intended to extort money , that is , for binding and abusing him . what is it to proclaim christ and paul to be fools , that could not speak sense , if this be not ? but the doctors have also contradictions to charge on christ , even that else-where he saith , [ he that eateth his flesh shall live for ever : ] ans . 1. that is , he that trusteth in a sacrificed christ as the means of his salvation , as bread is the means of natural life : he that would not understand , cannot understand the plainest words : but doth christ say , that any man eateth his flesh , that drinketh not his blood ? or that he shall have life , that doth the one without the other ? 2. and seeing they take every rogue that eateth their wafer to eat christs flesh , do they not here falsly say that all such shall have eternal life : o happy ( miserable ) church , that hath eternal life , how wicked soever , for eating the wafer , and calling it christs flesh ! and all this , that faith may not be thought to be meant by eating . 3. but seeing it must needs be eating by the teeth , or by flesh eating that is meant , they have found out a crafty literal way : christ saith that he loveth and cherisheth his church as his own flesh , and we are members of his body , of his flesh , and of his bones : and so they that murdered a million of the albigenses , &c. and massacred 40000 in france , and 200000 in ireland , and burnt them in england , germany , the low countries , and tormented and killed them in bohemia , and many other lands , did learn the literal way of eating christs flesh . and who doubts but the devil tells them that they shall thereby obtain everlasting life ? but why then are they against drinking his blood , when actually they draw it out by streams ? perhaps by burning his bones , ( as they did buce●s , phagius , wickliffes , and 1000 more ; ) they think that their teeth scape the trouble of gnawing them , and thus they feed on christs body , flesh and bones : for their masters beat witches if they bring him not account at every meeting , of some mischief that they have done . 3. and what but flat opposition to christ , should move these men to forbid one half of his sacrament , which he calls the new-testament in his blood ? one would wonder what should be their motive : it is no matter of pleasure , profit , or honour : this very deceiver had more wit than to pretend antiquity for it , or any one ancient doctor of the church . they dare not deny ( save to ignorants and fools , ) that it is a novelty contrary to unquestioned consent and practice of all christs church , for above a thousand years , or near at least . it is undenyably against christs institution and command , against his apostles doctrine , and scripture practice ; against all the judgment and practice of the ancient church , against the nature and integrity of the sacrament , against the concord of the church , that will never unite against all these , against the sense and comfort of believers . what then doth over-rule so many men to tear the church , to murder so many bohemians as they did , &c. for such a thing as this is ? reader i will tell thee all that i know : the devil is in constant war against christ and his kingdom , and the souls of men : as he thought he could have triumphed in making job curse god to his face ; so he would fain shew that he can make christs own pretended ministers oppose and despise the plainest of his commands , and defie his word and him to his face . to this he gets by the baits of worldly wealth , honour and dominion , a sort of fleshly worldly men to be bishops , whose very hearts are against the laws of christ : and puffing up these men by degrees , he tells them how they must be great , and arrogate power equal to christs apostles , and so domineer over the souls of men ; and all this on pretence of honouring christ : and having gotten a generation of gross ignorant debauched villains , into the papal elevated seat , and the ruling church power , when some poor woman once or twice shed some of the wine , or a priest chanced to spill it , their prophane holiness decreed that they should drink the wine no more ( save the clergy , ) but should eat christs blood , which they said was in his flesh , and a while they dipt the wafer in wine ; and then pretended infallibility being their vain glory , they must not change lest they should seem to be fallible , and should repent ; for repenting undoes satans kingdom . the one and fortieth accused point . that there is not in the church a true and proper sacrifice ; and that the mass is not a sacrifice . ans . true and proper , if the words are intelligible , are put against false and equivocal or figurative . and what man can tell us which sence of the word [ sacrifice ] must be taken for the only proper sence , when with heathens and christians the word is used in so many sences , and there are so many sorts of sacrifices ? this man would not tell you whether it be the thing or the name that he controverteth ; that would be to come into the light. if it be the thing , we never doubted but divers things are and must be in the church , which are called sacrifices , some in scripture , and some by papists : and some things by them called sacrifices , are in their church which god is against . if it be the name that is the question , we know that in a general sence it may be given to many things of different species , and equivocally yet to more ; but which sence to call proper among so many , let quibling grammarians tell him : we strive no further about names , than tendeth to preserve the due judgment of things . sometime a sacrifice signifieth a second thing offered to god by way of worship . sometime more strictly , somewhat supposed highly to gratifie or please him , offered to expiate some crime that displeaseth him , or by pleasing to procure some benefit from him . among heathens and jews , there were various sorts of sacrifices : some hilastical , some eucharistical : some of things lifeless , and some of living creatures ; where strictly part was burnt and so offered to god , and part given to the priest , and part eaten by the offerers . we hold , 1. that jesus christ offered his body on the cross a sacrifice to god for the expiation of sin , as a thing pleasing to god , in a sence which no other sacrifice ever ▪ was or is ; not that god delighted in his blood , pain or death as such ; but as finis gratiâ , it was the most excellent means to demonstrate his wisdom , love , justice , and mercy , and save a sinful race of men , with the honour of his law and government . 2. we hold that christ hath instituted his sacrament , to be a visible representation of this his sacrifice , both for commemoration and for actual investiture and collation of christ to be our saviour , and head in union , and of his grace and benefits , pardon , reconciliation , adoption , justification , sanctification , and title to glory . and we know that the ancient churches called this often a sacrifice : not in the same sence as christ was our sacrifice ; nor as the mosaical types were sacrifices ; but a representative sacrifice , representing christs own . but we are the shier to use the name sacrifice , where papists apply it to idolatry . 3. we know that all christians are bound to dedicate themselves to god , and even to lay down their lives when he requireth it ; and bound to offer him penitent confession , praise , thanksgiving , and to give alms to the poor , and serve and honour him with all their wealth and power . and all these are called sacrifices in scripture , because they are sacred oblations , acceptable to god through the merits of christs sacrifice . is not this man a calumniator then , that faith we hold , [ that there is not in the church a true and proper sacrifice , ] unless he call none true and proper but what no man can offer to god. but what say we to the sacrifice of the mass ? we say , that for the priest to pretend that after his words , bread is turned into christs flesh in a physical sence , and wine into his blood , and that this is our god , and that he sacrificeth this god to god , and eateth and drinketh him so sacrificed , and that all that so receive him have eternal life : this is a prophanation of holy things , a deceiving of souls , a blaspheming of christ , and idolatry against god. and all sacrificing in their mass , that is more than a representation of christs own sacrificing himself , for commemoration and communication of the gifts of his testament , and the expression of our gratitude , and devotedness to god by him , is their own prophane invention . how do they offer his broken body and blood shed , any otherwise than representatively , unless they kill him , and eat him when he is dead ? it was only a representation of his own sacrificed body and blood , which he made at the sacrament himself ; not then broken and shed , but to be broken , slain , and shed soon after , ( unless he had two bodies , one dead and one alive . ) the sacrament indeed was called a sacrifice by the ancient churches , to signifie that it is not christs body as now glorified in heaven that is there represented , but his body as once flesh and blood sacrificed on the cross : and how can it be that , but by representation , sacrificing it was killing it : do they kill christ a thousand thousand times over , yea , and kill his gloryfied body ? he hath no existent flesh and blood in heaven , speaking properly and formally ; but a spiritual glorified body , that was flesh and blood on earth : and doth every priest turn christs spiritual glorified body into flesh and blood again ? o what a mass of prophanation is their mass . tho two and fortieth accused point . that sacramental vnction , is not to be used to the sick. ans . in those hot-countries , anointing their bodies was used as a great refreshment for delight and health . and christ and his apostles applyed it to the miraculous use of healing , as christ did clay and spittle to a blind man : and while that miraculous use continued , st. james bids those that are sick as a punishment for some sin , to send for the elders of the church , that they may pray for the pardon of his sin , and for his recovery , and anoint him with oil , and if he have not sinned unto death , ( that is , a capital crime , which god would have magistrates punish with death , and will do so himself , ) his sin shall be forgiven , and he shall be healed . see now the malice of the prince of darkness . he that tempteth men to cast out half the substance of the lords supper , meerly to shew what they can and will , and dare do against his word , and tempteth men to forbid the very scripture it self , yet to undoe , he will overdoe , and draw men to be wise and righteous over much : who would think these men are against the sufficiency of scripture , that will turn its temporary occasional actions into perpetual sacraments ? they make conscience of washing feet , of bearing palms , of the holy-kiss ( but on the pax ) and a sacrament of anointing the sick : and why they make not a sacrament of anointing the blind with clay and spittle , of washing at jordan or siloam pools , and of the said kiss , and washing of feet , of bearing palms , of the popes riding on an ass , &c. i know not . but for the name of a sacrament , ( bring first a military , and then a church term , not used in scripture ) we will not quarrel with them : they may laxly extend it to almost any ceremony or sign religiously used , rightly or wrongly . but , 1. they use that to the dying , when they judge them past hope , which st. james spake of using for recovery . 2. they use that as an ordinary thing , which was to be used only for miraculous cures : and yet shew not that they have the faith or gift of miracles , nor cure any by it . 3. they force men to that feigned sacrament now ceased with that gift , which was used to none but such as voluntarily desired it . why are they not con●●●●ed to use it themselves , but they must force all others to it as necessary ? what man , woman , or child , do you read of in all the new-testament , that was anointed in order to death , save a woman that meant no such thing , that anointed christ in health ? where read you that dragoons or inquisitors inforced it , and draged naked the bodies through the streets , and buryed them in dunghils , or where dogs may eat them , if they refuse it ? whose sacraments can we think are these ? the three and fortieth accused point . that no interior grace is given by imposition of hands in holy orders : and that ordinary vocation and mission of pastors , is not necessary in the church . ans . contrarily the reformed catholicks hold , 1. that god often gave miraculous interior gifts to men , by the imposition of the apostles hands . 2. and if he please he may now bless ordination to the increase of men's mental fitness for the ministry ; and when he doth so , we know not . but we hold , 1. that men should be supposed by the ordinances to be true christians , and to have competent ministerial abilities before they ordain them . 2. that now miraculous gifts cease , no man can tell when any other inward grace is given by imposition of hands in ordination , than relative , which is obligation and authority for the work of the ministry . and durandus and other of their school-men , say that their indelible character is no other . and the rest know not what to make of it . 3. if we read of multitudes of debauched , ignorant , apostatical popes and prelates , and many ages of church barbarism , and bruitishness , ( even in baroni●s , genebrard , and the fiercest papists ; ) and if we see priests after ordination to be ignorant , drunkards , fornicators , unable and unapt to teach , haters of a godly life , we cannot tell what grace it is that these men are said to receive in ordination : whatever it is , it will not keep them out of hell , as it keeps them not from serving satan . 4. we take an ordinary calling and mission to be ordinarily needful to the church ministry . this calling consisteth , 1. in necessary abilities , without which god sendeth none . 2. in willingness and consent . 3. in the ordination by senior pastors , where it may be had . 4. and to fix them in relation to particular congregations , the mutual consent of themselves and the flocks . 5. but we know rules of meer order are for the things ordered , and the edification of the church , for which all church power is given , and god commandeth that all be done : and we know that god who will have mercy and not sacrifice , would not have us destroy the substance by pretence of a ceremony . and that in several cases , ministers may be lawfully called without imposition of hands , and canonical ordination . as , 1. in case men be cast into infidel countries , where no bishops or pastors can be had : as by shipwrack , or merchants factory , or embassadors , or when a bishop with them dyeth by the way : they must not be without all publick church worship , for want of an imposing bishop . 2. in case persecution drive all the bishops out of reach . 3. in case the persecuted bishops refuse to ordain for fear of suffering . 4. in case the bishops be hereticks , or intollerable usurpers and no true bishops , wanting the essentials of a qualification and a call. 5. in case the bishops impose any false oath , subscription , covenant , or profession , or any other sin , as the condition without which they will not ordain , ( which is the case of all the papists prelates ; ) their ordination in these cases is not necessary . 6. we know that in such cases the ministry faileth not , but there may be a true succession of pastors , though regular canonical ordination be interrupted . for there is nothing necessary after gods law , which specifieth the office by stated institution , but only the determining who the persons are that god would have in this office : which may be well known without canonical ordination , where that cannot lawfully be had . there are instances in the ancient churches , that when some elected to be bishops , fled or hid themselves ; the bishops ordained them absent , by writing , without imposition of hands . 7. yea , we know that if in any one church or nation , the succession were totally interrupted , for many years , god hath left means sufficient to restore it . 1. his word describeth the office , and giveth the authority and obligation to the person when determined of . 2. that determination may be made , 1. by the due qualification of the person : 2. the inviting necessities of the people and opportunity . 3. mutual consent ; and without these the ordination and mission of a bishop is vain . 8. the church of rome more needeth this doctrine than the protestants : for it is notoriously certain , that regular succession hath failed oft and long in the papacy , and consequently in its clergy . 1. there is no more notorious interruption than by the utter incapacity of the unqualified : and such have been those that were children or declared sots , beasts , simonists , filthy lechers , hereticks , infidels , schismaticks , by general council , and the most papal historians . their succession now is from eugenius the 4th . deposed as an heretick by a general council . 2. when there have been two or three popes above twenty times , no man knoweth which was the right . 3. either election is in the power of some in special , or not ; if not , the turks , or heathens , or hereticks , may choose a pope : if it be , then who have the power ? it s known that at first the bishop of rome was chosen by the people of one congregation : after by the clergy and people of the christians of the city : after that by the bishops of the diocess : sometimes by the emperors : or arrian kings ( with the clergy and people : ) sometimes by general councils : sometimes against general councils , by an armed faction : and of late times by things called a colledge of cardinals . if all these were lawful , no one sort have the electing power : if any was unlawful , the succession hath been interrupted . 4. either the ordination of a superior is necessary , or not : if yea , then the pope having no superior , was never truly ordained : if not , then a presbyter may be ordained without a bishop . rome is more concerned to answer these things than we . the four and fortieth accused point . that priests and other religious persons who have vowed their chastity to god , may freely marry notwithstanding their vow . ans . 1. must none keep vows but priests and religious people . 2. the known doctrine of the protestants about oaths and vows ( which you may see in sanderson de juramento , ) is , 1. that antecedently it is unlawful to ensnare our selves by unneecssary vows , of that which is out of our power , or so mutable , that it may hereafter be made our duty which now is not . 2. but having once vowed , we must distinguish of the imposing , the making of the vow , and the matter of it . and that , 1. though it was by parents , or others unlawfully imposed , 2. and by our selves , by temerity unlawfully made or sworn , 3. yet if the matter consideratis considerandis be necessary or lawful , the vow must be kept : but if it be sin that is vowed , it must not be done . because man's vows cannot abrogate or suspend gods laws . can any of your casuists deny this ? therefore , if boys or girls vow chastity , and it prove thar they cannot keep it without sin , the matter becometh to them unlawful , and they must break it : as for instance : 1. if they cannot keep it without apparent hurt to their souls by lust . 2. or if the heir of the crown , or some great estate , vow it , and if he keep it , the kingdom or church is like to suffer by it . 3. if parents or prince countermand the vow in youth . but if they can keep it , and that keeping become not sin by consequent accidents or changes , they ought to keep it ; though they must repent of their rash unlawful making it . gods law is perfect , and maketh duty enough for us , and we should not foolishly make more as law-givers to our selves , when we are conscious how far short we come of keeping gods own laws . the five and fortieth accused point . that fasting and abstinence from certain meats , is not grounded on holy scripture , nor causeth any spiritual good . ans . still deceitful confusion : protestants hold , 1. fasting is a needful duty to several persons in several cases . as , 1. to take down the flesh when it groweth too strong in lust . 2. for the cure of many diseases from fulness . 3. to exercise our humiliation in times of publick danger and calamity , or of personal repentance for some great sin , or under some affliction that calleth for great humiliation . 2. they hold that abstinence is needful in it's time and place , as fasting is in it's : and that all eating and drinking is unlawful , which gratifieth the appetite by quantity or quality against men's health , and the just rules by which we should judge what is healthful : yea , that bare eating and drinking to please the appetite , which doth not some way conduce to fit us for our duty , is sin. 3. we know that the same meat and drink for quality and quantity which is best for one , is hurtful and mortal to another : and we know that fasting is as physick , whether for health , or for the soul : and if we are fallen into the hands of such physicians , as will tye all the land and all the world to take the same physick , and on the same days , to take a purge or a vomit every wednesday , friday , and holy evens , we shall obey them when we are a-weary of our lives . i think our london colledges would deride such prescribers . 4. and if any will tell us that we shall merit of god , and save our selves by forbearing the coursest sort of flesh , and eating the more costly fish , junkets , sweet-meats , and drinking wine and strong-drink , we abhor such mock-fasts , for god will not be mocked : but hipocrites turn all religion into a mockery . i have heard those called strict precise protestants , accused as being against abstinence and fasting ; and upon enquiry i found that those of my acquaintance , eat and drink less all the year , than their accusers of my acquaintance do on their mock-fasting days . to such their diet would seem a strict fast , even calvin that macerated his body , with eating but a few bits once a day , is by some papists called a sensual glutton , ( though massonius saith the contrary . ) the six and fortieth accused point . that jesus christ descended not into hell , nor delivered thence the souls of the fathers . ans . 1. and do not these false accusers know that both the creed which we all profess , and the articles of the church of england , say expresly that christ descended into hell ? 2. and those ahat dislike the translation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into hell , yet grant christ went into 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and that 's all the scripture saith : so that all the doubt is but what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth ? whether the hell of torment , or more generally the unseen state of separate souls ! if you mean the last , what protestants deny it ? if you mean the first , what presumptuous cruelty is it , to believe that all the souls of the fathers were in hell , till the death of christ ? christ alleadging , i am the god of abraham , of isaac , and of jacob , sure meant not , that god was their god , because they were in hell : was lazarus in hell when abraham said , now he is comforted ? it was a hell of joy and comfort : were samuel , elisha , job , daniel , &c. in hell ? was moses in hell , that appeared in glory on the mount with elias ? but what is it that the infallible church cannot make good , when they have once presumed to affirm it ? the seven and fortieth accused point . that there is no purgatory fire , or other prison , wherein sin may be satisfied for after this life . ans . 1. which way this church came to be so much acquainted with hell , and purgatory , and prisons , and satisfying in them , in the other world , more than is revealed in the word of god , we know not , unless some have told them that come thence , or from heaven . but for our parts , we think gods word more trusty than dead men whom we know not : god sendeth us to the law , and to the testimony : if they speak not according to these , it is because there is no light in them , isa . 8.20 . abraham preferred moses and the prophets before one from the dead . the prophane citation of scripture by him for such a purgatory-prison , and satisfaction , needs no answer save the perusal of the texts . what mean these men by [ satisfying for sin ? ] 1. if they mean that satisfaction by the merits whereof god pardoneth sin without dishonour to his justice , government , or law : ] christ , and he only , hath thus fully satisfied for sin , already , and there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin ; for by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified . 2. but if by satisfying for sin , they mean that all must suffer all the punishment that their sin deserveth , then god forgiveth no sin at all : for to forgive the sin , is to forgive the punishment : and then they renounce the office , sacrifice and blood of christ , which are for the pardon of sin : and they renounce baptism and the lords supper that give and seal it : and they cast away all hopes of salvation , and damn all mankind : for all sin deserveth some degree of damnation in hell. but if the pope can pardon , sure god doth pardon some : to deny pardon , is to deny all the scripture , and all humane hope and mercy . 3. but if by [ satisfying for sin , ] they mean that god when he forgiveth through christ the destructive everlasting punishment , will yet require some corrective temporal punishment , with which he is said to be satisfied , in that he requireth no more , we confess de re , that such a thing there is in this world ; death as death , and pain as pain are such ; and the curse on the earth , and the loss of some degrees of grace ; they are all corrective penalties : and if any say that a lower degree of glory for the loss of some degree of grace is such ; or that the separation of the soul from the body till the resurrection , hath some nature of penalty ; we strive with no man about such things : but de nomine we justly here dislike the word , [ satisfying , ] because in common sence , it soundeth as some compensation , and somewhat that is of the same nature with christs satisfaction ; and that is all that justice requireth to purchase our pardon . and it encourageth the ill use of it by papists , that make it meritorious . and de re we believe no such purgatory , ( much less the popes power to deliver men out of it , for masses or the like , ) because god tells us of no such thing . and the primitive churches never owned it : augustine first seemed to doubt of it : but i find none before that ever held it , unless you will call origens opinion such , that thought the devils and damned should have a time of deliverance , ( now called heresie . ) as to 1 cor. 3.13 , 15. is there no fiery tryall of mistaken doctrine , and of the erroneous in this life ? as to joh. 11.22 . what an expositor is this : i know ( saith martha , ) that whatever thou wilt ask of god , he will give it thee : ergo , lazarus was delivered out of purgatory . as well he may say , all saints shall have a resurrection : therefore all are in purgatory . or god denyeth christ nothing : therefore there is a purgatory . so acts 2.24 . whom god hath raised up , having loosed the pains of death , because it was not possible that he should be holden of it . here he noteth two things . 1. that where christ was , there was pains . ans . as if death it self were not a penalty : it was christs pains , or penal state of death , that peter mentioneth , and the man himself here confesseth that christ had no pain in that place . 2. but he saith that it was not christs , but others pain that is said to be loosed ; when the text plainly saith , 1. that it was christs pains of death . 2. loosed by his resurrection . 3. because it was impossible that he , ( not they ) should be held of it . so 1 cor. 15.24 . because there is no mention of baptizing for the dead , he feigneth a purgatory meant . and luk. 16.9 . that receiving at death into the everlasting habitations , proveth a purgatory : when yet they say that purgatory is to none an everlasting habitation : and luk. 23.42 . because the thief would be remembred by christ in his kingdom , souls may be holpen after death out of purgatory : as if it was purgatory that was the paradise with christ , where that thief was to be that day : is it not tedious but to read such prophanation of gods word ? the eight and fortieth accused point . that it is not lawful to make or to have images . ans . this lie hath conquered the blushing passion . 1. can such men believe that there are no protestant painters ? are there none of their shops in london , or holland ? do none but papists make or sell pictures ? are not the statues of kings at the exchange , the stocks-market , chaering-cross ? are there no images on our coyn ? nor our banners ? nor on the escutcheons of the nobility and gentry of this and other lands : are there no images at the sign-posts in all london , nor in all the cities , and market-towns in the kingdom ? nor in any of the church-windows ? but perhaps they will say , tho' we speak so universally ( to deceive the ignorant , ) yet we meant it of images of religious signification and use . ans . and do not all the lutherans keep them in their churches ? are they not continued in most church-windows in england ? obj. but at least it's true of the calvinists or puritans ? ans . 1. and will you therefore slander the rest ? 2. but we must not hastily believe any thing that false accusers say ? have not the holland calvinists multitudes of pictures ? did you never see beza and others , icones virorum illustrium , nor mr. samuel clerk's lives with images ? nor the puritans english geneva bible , with the images of the histories ? nor the dutch quarry-bricks for chimneys , on which most of the history of the bible is painted ? o! for truth or modesty . 2. but we confess that there are some images bawdy , some superstitious , idolatrous , or blasphemous , which we leave to such as choose them , they being not for our use , ( of which after . ) the nine and fortieth accused point . that it is not lawful to reverence images , nor to give any honour to insensible things . ans . methinks you should sometime speak truth , if it were but before you are aware . 1. protestants commonly hold , that they should give honour to all insensible things : they are all the work of god ; dishonouring or not honouring the creature , or work , is dishonouring or not honouring the creator and maker as such . the due praise and honour of a building , a book , &c. is necessary to the due praise and honour of the author ! do you think protestants condemn the 18th . psalm , the 104th . psalm , the 145 , and all the rest that magnifie the works of god ? is there any above a beast , that doth not honour and praise sun , moon , stars , heaven and earth , sea and land , as the works of god ? yea we honour every plant and flower , every vigetable and mineral , knowing that god is wonderful and unsearchable in all . what is physick , astronomy , geography , but the shell of knowing and honouring gods works , and god in them . 2. and the image of kings , of holy men , are purposely made and printed by protestants , in love , honour , and reverence to the persons living or dead , whom they represent : you may see many rooms adorned with the images of the fathers , and of late divines : for their relation they love with some sort of honour the pictures of those whom you have burnt as hereticks : see whether you find them not in john fox his acts and monuments . 3. but we are warned oft enough by god , and by the mischievous effects of it in the churches , against all idolatrous and scandalous , and ensnaring respect and use of images , which are either false representations , or are used contrary to the second commandment , to corporal idolatry though not mental , in such likeness to the heathen use of their demons images and deified heroes and emperours , as seemeth to be but a change of the object persons ; or may tempt others to unlawful usage of them : especially the use being not commanded us of god , while it is dangerous . and we abhor the papists omission of the second commandment , and turning the tenth into two , lest the people should perceive the evil of such imagery . no wonder that their proselytes must be kept in ignorance , and forbid the scriptures in a known tongue , without a special licence , when they must not ordinarily read or hear all the ten commandments , even these ten written by god himself in stone , are too much for them to be trusted with ; and yet all the mass of ceremonies , and ocean of canon laws , are not too much : and he that must be killed for not obeying these , must not know all gods own ten commands ; yea many have been burnt for having his word translated . 4. and to pray before the image of saints , and then to say , we do not pray to them , but to those that they represent , is but to do what the heathen idolaters promised to do to their demons : they usually said , we be not such fools as to think wood , and stone , and gold , and images , to be god. but as the first commandment forbids us to have any gods but the true god ; so the second forbids us to seem to have any more , tho' our minds despise them , or by their way of image-worship , to seem to be of their mind : for as a man that useth the common words of an oath , without any purpose to swear , is a prophane swearer with the tongue , ( which the mind should better rule , ) tho' his mind swear not ; so he that on his knees in religious prayer , looketh on images , as the mediate object of his worship , his act is bodily idolatry , and his mind is guilty by not better ruling it . where god affixeth the mention of his jealousie , even to the third and fourth generation , calling the bowers to images , those that hate him ; it is needful to us to be jealous of our actions : for our god is a consuming fire . and we are n●t ignorant of the doctrine of your st. thomas , who saith that the image is to be worshipped , with the same sort of worship as that which it representeth , and the image of the crucifix , with latria , called divine worship . the fiftieth accused point . that no man hath seen god in any form , and that therefore his picture or image cannot be made . ans . 1. but what if it were lawful to paint god ? is it necessary ? why may you not be contented to have a painted god your selves ? must all be burnt and damned as hereticks that are not of your mind ? will you be jealous against those that bow not to a painted god , as god is jealous against those that do it ? god saith thou shalt not bow down to them , nor worship them : where saith he , thou shalt bow down to them , and worship them ? or bow towards them , and say , it is not to them ? 2. god saith , thou shalt not make to thy self the likeness of any thing in heaven or earth , to bow down to them and worship them . bowing down purposely towards them , and before them , is interpretatively bowing down to them , worshipping them . and god would not be so worshipped : isa . 40.16 , 25. to whom will ye liken god ? or what likeness will ye compare unto him ? to whom will ye liken me , or shall i be equal , saith the holy one ? see lev. 26.1 . deut. 16.22 . hab. 18.2 . the molten image is a teacher of lies . it is blasphemy to make a picture or image of god , but what he maketh himself ; as if we said , god is like that image or creature . but this deceiver tells us , how god appeared to adam and others , in a humane or some certain shape . ans . 1. and yet he hath oft and earnestly forbid making images of him to worship . 2. anthopomorphits , that take god to have parts like man , are condemned as hereticks by the church of rome it self . every notifying sign of gods attributes , is not called his image ; and man is called his image , for the divine impressions on his soul , which cannot it self be seen and pictured . if god appear by an angel , and that angel appear in humane shape , we are nevertheless forbidden to worship god pictured as a man. sun , moon , stars , yea , every creature notifieth god to us ; yet may we not paint him like these , or any other creature . did not gods transcendency , and his express word plainly and frequently reprove this , popery had some small excuses . if they deny christs and his apostles words , that no man hath seen god at any time , save his son , they reproach him : to see his works , is only to se● that which notifieth him , and not himself : else every pagan and brute seeth god. we deny not but the sun , and fire , and a man may be pictured , and that god being partly notified to us by these , ( and every creature ) may be said so far to appear in them ? and when did he appear so wonderfully as in christ ▪ and yet it being not his essence in it sell that we see in them , but his attributes is part ; an image of a man , of the sun , moon , stars , of a horse , or a dog , or a toad , is not to be called an image of god , else god may have as many images as creatures . the one and fiftieth accused point . that blessing or signing with the sign of the cross , is not founded in holy scripture . ans . the man would not tell you whether he mean the lawfulness of the cross only , or also the necessity of using it . but what are his proofs ? 1. rev. 7.3 . hurt not the earth , nor the trees , till we have sealed , ( we read signed , ) the servants of our god in their foreheads . is here any mention of crossing or blessing with the cross ? an angel in prophetical vision , is bid to mark or seal the servants of god , as those that are not to be destroyed , when god commissioneth other angels to destroy the persecutors : therefore the priest must sign all christians with the cross . and i would they did not infer as one did from ezek. 9.4 , 5. [ and to the other he said , go ye after him through the city and smite ; let not your eye spare , neither have ye pity , stay utterly old and young , and little children and women ; but come not near any man on whom is the mark , and begin at my sanctuary . ] and thus whatever plague or death god bid angels execute on his uncurable enemies , idolaters , and persecutors , the devil will teach men , that priests and their hang-men may execute on all that are not marked in the forehead with a cross ? but as long as rome is so like to babylon , they were better teach men a truer exposition of the revelations . thus they can prove , that the scripture is but like a nose of wax , by using it as if it were so . it was idolatrous persecuting rome that was to be destroyed , and it was those that had gods mark , and not the beasts that were to be secured . and who is that idolatrous persecuting beast ? the next text is mark 10.16 . christ put his hands on children , and blessed them ▪ and would he make men believe , that we deny christs blessing them or others ? or that pastors may bless the people in his name ? is here ever a word of signing with the cross ? the other is luke 24.50 . he led them out as far as bethany , and he lift up his hands and blessed them . therefore the priest must cross men in the forehead : reader , this is the fashion of these men's confuting the reformed catholicks , and proving popery , and using scripture . and have they not reason to challenge the sole interpreting of it ? let but the pope and his priests expound it , and it shall all speak for them , and speak blood and fire against all that obey them not : but till then , they are it's enemies , because it is the greatest enemy to them . 2. but suppose christs blessing had been crossing : with what face do they feign protestants in england , to be against crossing in the forehead ? when the world knoweth that the church of england is not only for it , but ejecteth and silenceth all ministers that will baptize the child of the most godly christians without it . and they know that all the churches called lutheran use it . are none of these protestants ? 3. and though those called non-conformists , are not for the using of it as a dedicating symbol of christianity in baptismal covenanting , to bind the covenanter to that confession and holy warfare which is the promised duty of the covenant , nor for denying christendom to those that refuse this use of the cross , ( out of a fear lest this covenanting use make it a human sacrament added to baptism ; ) yet i meet with few of them that condemn the ancient christians , that lived among heathens , ( who scorned them as worshiping a crucified god , ) for their seasonable crossing themselves in those heathens sight , meerly to shew that they were not ashamed of such a crucified saviour ; ( not thinking what papists would bring it to at last . ) the two and fiftieth accused point . that the publick service of the church , ought not to be said , but in a language that all the people may understand . ans . the reformed catholicks indeed hold this , with these exceptions : 1. that by all be meant the ordinary congregation ; not meaning that if a french-man , or a dutch-man , come in among them , they must needs speak to him apart in his own tongue . 2. that if any rustick , illiterate , or novices , understand not many words in the translation of the bible , or some apt words of the minister , we must not therefore change the translation , nor forbear those apt words that are suited to the more intelligent ; but help to amend the understanding of the ignorant . but that in publick and private , the congregation should understand what they hear as the word of god , and what is said in confession , prayer and praise to god , this we hold as a matter of grand importance . 1. because it 's purposely , plainly , and copiously decided so by the holy ghost , in the apostle paul , 1 cor 14. do but read the chapter and judge . 2. because christ always preached to the people in a known tongue . 3. he prayed , joh 17. in a known tongue , and taught them so to pray . 4. the apostles where ever they came , preached and prayed in a known tongue . 5. they wrote the gospels , the acts , and all their epistles , to whole churches , in the tongue most commonly known to the reader , and so to be read to , or by all . 6. it was their standing rule ; let all be done to edification . 7. their preaching and writing was all for teaching : and it is no teaching to speak to men in a strange language , ( unless we be teaching them to understand it . ) 8. praying is the expressing of known desires to god : it 's no prayer that expresseth no desire , and ignoti nulla cupido : there is no desire , save sensitive appetite , that supposeth not knowledge that the thing is good and needful . the words of a parrot are not a prayer . and confession of sin is the act of a penitent soul , and it is no repentance or confession that is but words of they know not what : it 's no penitent confession to hear or speak words , not understood what sin they signifie . and to give god thanks , implyeth that we understand what mercies or benefits the words express . and to praise god is understandingly to magnifie his perfections or works . so that words without understanding them , are no more to be called prayer , praise , confession , thanksgiving , than the singing of a bird is , or the crowing of a cock. 9. no reasonable man would be thus served or conversed with : a parent indeed can understand an abba , or a look from an infant ; but it is on supposition , that the infant himself perceiveth what he would have : and if it be not by intellectual but sensitive perception , it is no more a petition to his father , than a dogs waiting for food , tho' the person deserves more pity . so god understandeth the meaning of spiritual groans , in one that wants words for large expression : but that supposeth that it is true inward desires after him which those groans signifie . but publick worship requireth a conjunction of soul and service , and therefore a conjunct understanding : else there is no true union and communion in the worship . for one sound of words with discord of desires , is no christian union and communion . it must be supposed that either the hearers are not praying at all , or else that every one is secretly praying after his own thoughts for various things , without any concord . what melody would it be for all the church to sing in as many tunes as persons ? what king or judge will take it for a petition , for a man to talk-gibberish to him , or say he knoweth not what ? 10. even papists deride quakers , for meeting to say nothing : and what difference is there , when they hear and say nothing understood , saving that the voice maketh it a more pompous mockery , than the quakers silence ? o! who would have thought that the primitive manner of publick worship , should ever have degenerated into such a prophane abuse of god and man , against plain scripture , universal practice , and humane reason ? and this as a part of a grand design to kill the life of all true religion ▪ and delude souls with the dead carkass of mortified formalities , and ceremonies ; and that men should think that souls are saved as wizards do pretend , to do cures by charms of words not understood ; they serve god with empty shells , when they have cast away the kernels : like the silly samaritan ▪ woman , that lookt for a christ to come to tell them , whether in this mountain or at jerusalem men ought to worship , little knowing what it was to worship god as a spirit , in spirit and truth , when it should be neither at that mountain , or at jerusalem . but hath this man no scripture , ( against scripture ? ) yes , luk. 1.8 . [ the people were praying without , while the priest was offering incense within . ] therefore the publick worship may be performed , so as the people understand not : that , 1. the priests action only out of their sight is the publick worship , and the peoples praying is not so . 2. the offering incense , is praying ; or because the people are not to do the priests office in incense and sacrificing , therefore ministers must pray and praise god alone , without the people , and all this publick worship . 3. if the levitical , sacrifices were offered by the priest alone , christs gospel worship must be performed by the priest alone , the people not knowing what he saith : and the precepts and examples of the new-testament , must all be reduced to the levitical order of incense and sacrificing . 4. and is he sure that all the people in the outer court , prayed they knew not what , or in an unknown tongue ? what use is scripture of to these men ? his next is , levit. 16.17 . none was to go in with the priest to make attonement for the congregation , &c. ans . you see that these men are judaizers , and set up the levitical law for the churches rule of service , as if christ had not changed the law. but our question is not now , whether their priest have any solitary attonement to make for the congregation ; but whether christ hath not instituted such publick worship , in which ministers and people must understandingly joyn ? doth their priest celebrate their mass alone , out of the peoples sight or hearing , in a sanctuary while they are in the outer court ? do not their people assemble to their mass ? will they stand to it , that their church renounceth all worship of god in holy assemblies , save by the priest alone ? and is this the holy catholick church ? and the man here professedly calls the priests solitary action , the publick service , which is for the people , and not by them , and therefore they need not understand ; and all the peoples prayers are private and should be understood ; so that ( the mystery opened , ) either the priest is all the church , or else they have no publick church service , if they must meet , that every one may have a secret prayer of his own , and may only see the priests service called publick . and by this he pretends that he answereth paul , 1 cor. 14. adding most shamelesly , 1. that it seemeth there by the text , that the common service of the church , was not then in a tongue commonly understood . 2. because there was one to supply the place of the ideots , to say amen , where he saith , that the geneva-men , most deceitfully and maliciously translated , [ he that is an ideot , how shall he say amen ? ] and raileth at them for putting [ so be it . ] o! what is man , and how incredible is the pretended infallible clergy , that can expect that all men trust their souls on such palpable deceit ! when st. paul spent a great part of the chapter to disswade those that by inspiration , could speak strange languages , that they should not use them in the church , as being unedifying , or at least not without an interpreter ; this man gathers , that the common service was in an unknown tongue ? as if this disswaded use of some prophets gift , were the common service . 2. and when he disswadeth them from praying in an unknown tongue , or giving thanks in it , saying , else how can he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say amen , this man feigneth , that yet they were to give thanks in an unknown tongue , and one was to supply the place of the ideot or unlearned , in saying amen , ( see vers . 23. ) paul would have all say amen , this man says one was to do it for them : paul argueth that therefore they must speak to the understanding of the unlearned : this man turneth his own words against him : doth his supplier of the ideots place himself , understand or not ? if not , paul saith , how can he say amen ? if he do , how doth he supply the place of the ideots , that are supposed should say amen , and cannot ? for the sake of this chapter and instance , i shall never think any words so plain , that papists cannot turn against their most evident sense . but what is the man's pretence for this erroneous confidence ? why , the vulgar latine translateth it , qui supplet locum , instead of qui implet locum : and that latin translator by supplet meant the same as implet , possidet vel tenet : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is well known to signifie to fill up : their own expositors are many of them for the sence which this doctor chargeth as deceitfully and maliciously given : cornelius a lapide saith that , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is denuo implere , vel simul & communiter omnes implere , to fill again , or all together , or in common to fill : it is not qui supplet vicem indocti , but qui locum occupat inter in ▪ doctos , or idiotae locum tenet . and so it is expounded by the ancients , chrysostom , occumenius , theophysact . and are not these roman priests notoriously perjured , that all swear to expound the scripture , according to the unanimous consent of the fathers , when as ( besides that the fathers have but few of them written commentaries on the scriptures , there are very few of them that unanimously agree , of the sence of the one half of the scripture texts , but either say nothing of them , or differ : and not only in this , but in most points named by this doctors touchstone , he and others go flat against them ? and what meaneth the man to rail at them , that say so be it , instead of amen ? is it not a true translation ? but he will prove that it should not be translated , and consequently that servict may be said in an unknown tongue , for amen is not greek but hebrew . ans . 1 . who can stand before these arguments , if they be but backt with guns and swords , or smithfield fires , which are too hot for any answer save patience . he may also prove it from christs words on the cross , eloi eloi lamasabacthani : for christ was now the most publick priest , and was offering the most publick service by his sacrifice : ergo , the publick service should be in an unknown tongue : and it may be , they may find some other untranslated word , that shall confute not only all the bible , but all the septuagint and vulgar latine translations . but seeing these men's arguments are too hot for me to answer , as they might know that the church of england refuseth not amen , so neither will i , ( though as i can prove , that the corinthian church were hebrews and gentiles mixt , and that amen was understood by both ; so protestants use it as a word understood . ) from the serpents seed , and his deceiving subtil lies : from cain and his successours , and the malignant and blood-thirsty enemies of abels faithful acceptable worship ; from such a worldly and fleshly sacred generation as take gain for godliness , and make their worldly carnal interest the standard of their religion , and their proud domination to pass for the kingdom of christ : from an vsurping vice-christ , whose ambition is so boundless , as to extend to the prophetical , priestly and kingly headship , over all the earth , even at the antipodes ; and to that which is proper to god himself , and our redeemer : from a leprous sect , which condemneth the far greatest part of all christs church on earth , and separateth from them , and calleth it self , the whole and only church : from that church that decreeth destruction , to all that renounce not all humane sense , by believing that bread is not bread , nor that wine is wine , but christs very flesh and blood , who now hath properly no flesh and blood , but a spiritual body ; and that decreeth the excommunication , deposition , and damnation , of all princes that will not exterminate all such ; and absolveth their subjects from their oaths of allegiance : from that beast whose mark is per perjury , perfidiousness , and persecution , and that think they do god acceptable service , by killing his servants , or tormenting them ; and that religion which feedeth on christs flesh , by sacrificing those that he calleth his flesh and bones , ephes . 5 . from the infernal dragon , the father of lies , malice , and murder , and all his ministers and kingdom of darkness : good lord make haste to deliver thy flock ; and confirm their faith , hope , patience , and their joyful desire , of the great , true , final , glorious deliverance , amen . amen , amen . finis . this book was delivered by mr. baxter himself to the bookseller , and not being seen by us the authours of the epistle to the reader , till the sheets were printed , these errata's must be corrected . page 76. line 24. read after god through him . page 81. l. 14. read converted for convicted . page 94. l. 24. read converted for convicted . page 96. l. 21. read they do hold , for do they hold . page 97. l. 1. read sinless for senceless . page 116. l. 9. read intuition for intention . page 119. l. 17. read reneus for romans . page 149. l. 4. r. ordainers for ordinances . page 150. l. 15 , 16. r. preference for pretence . page 152. l. 2● . r. councils for council . page 162. l. 10. r. there is mention . page 165. l. 3. r. vegetable . page 166. l. 27 , 28. r. professed for promised . books printed for john salusbury at the sun over against the royal exchange in cornhill . an end of doctrinal controversies , which have lately troubled the churches , by reconciling explication without much disputing : by richard baxter . the certainty of the world of spirits , fully evinced by unquestionable histories of apparitions and witchcrafts , proving the immortality of souls . by richard baxter .. the harmony of the divine attributes in the contrivance and accomplishment of mans redemption by our lord jesus christ , &c. by vvilliam bates , d.d. the duty and blessing of a tender conscience , plainly stated , and earnestly recommended to all that regard acceptance with god. by t. cruso . two sermons , opening the nature of participation with , and demonstrating the necessity of purification by christ . by the same author . five sermons on various occasions : by the same authour . the mirror of divine love unvailed : in a paraphrase of the high and mysterious song of solomon . tho countreys concurrence with the london united ministers . by s. chandler . a summary or abridgement of the whole bible , whereby children , and the younger sort , may learn the contents of it in a very short time , and give an account of the principal passages of it . a new examination of the accidence and grammer . a new discourse on the marriage of isaac and rebecka . 12o. the suffering christian . 12o. nostradamus's prophesies . the contents . 1 of the rule of faith p. 1 2 of the judge of controversies in matters of faith p. 6 3 of the scriptures difficulty p. 8 4 of traditions p. 19 5 of the private spirit p. ●9 6 if st. peters faith failed p. ●4 7 if the church can err p. 39 8 of the churches infallibility p. 50 9 of her vniversality p. 56 10 of her vnity p. 58 11 of st. peters headship p. 60 12 of a secular princes headship p. 63 13 of antichrist p. 67 14 whether none but god can forgive sin● p. 7● 15 whether we ought to confess to none but to god p. 7● 16 of pardons p. 7● 17 whether the actions and passions of 〈◊〉 saints are profitable to us p. 7● 18 of works of supererogation p. 18 19 of free-will p. 82 20 of keeping the commandments p. 89 21 of faith and good works p. 99 22 whether good works are meritorious p. 96 23 whether faith once had cannot be lost , p. 97 24 of gods inevitable decree , who shall be damned and who shall be saved p. 99 25 whether we ought to assure our selves of our salvation . p. 103 26 whether every one hath his angel-keeper p. 107 27 whether angels pray not for us p. 108 28 whether me may not pray to them p. 110 29 whether they can help us or no p. 113 30 of saints apparitions p. 114 31 whether they know what passeth on earth p. 117 32 whether they pray not for us ib. 33 whether we may alledge their merits in favour of our selves p. 118 34 whether we may not pray to them p. 121 35 of the relicts of saints p. 122 36 of hallowing of creatures p. 123 37 of the necessity of baptism p. 126 38 of confirmation p. 128 39 of the last supper p. 130 40 of r●●●ivers under one kind p. 136 41 of the sacrifice of the mass p. 14● 42 of extream vnction p. 14● 43 of holy orders p. 148 44 of religious vows p. 15● 45 of fasting and abstinence from meats p. 155 46 of limbus patrum p. 157 47 of purgatory p. 158 48 of making images p. 162 49 of worshipping images p. 164 50 of making the picture of god p. 168 51 of blessing with the sign of the cross p. 170 52 of service in an unknown tongue p. 173 there will in due time be published a large account of mr. baxters life , mostly written by himself . scolding no scholarship in the abyss, or, groundless grounds of the protestant religion as holden out by m. menzeis in his brawlings against m. dempster. abercromby, david, d. 1701 or 2. 1669 approx. 312 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 107 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-10 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a26620 wing a87 estc r23824 07915194 ocm 07915194 40378 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a26620) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 40378) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1194:2) scolding no scholarship in the abyss, or, groundless grounds of the protestant religion as holden out by m. menzeis in his brawlings against m. dempster. abercromby, david, d. 1701 or 2. menzeis, john, 1624-1684. papismus lucifugus. 298 [i.e. 208] p. printed for the author, [douai?] : 1669. attributed to alexander con but more likely by david abercromby. cf british museum catalogue. a reply to: papismus lucifugus / john menzies. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng protestantism. 2006-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-08 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-09 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2006-09 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion scolding no scholarship : in the abyss or , groundles grounds of the protestant religion , as holden out by m. menzeis in his brawlings against m. dempster . we have heard of the pride of moab ( he is very proud ) even of his haughtiness , and his pride and his wrath ; but his lyes shall not be so , isaiah 16. v. 6. according to protestants translation . the house of god , which is the church of the living god , the pillar and ground of truth , 1 tim. 3.15 . printed for the author , 1669. sr. william baird of newbaith bart. an advertisement . having but a very few things whereof to advertise the reader , i address no epistle to him ; yet one thing i must friendly tell him , being to ask a courtesie or two at his hands . 1. then he shall know this short reply to mr. menzeis greater book , was offered to the press at aberdene within a moneth after it first appeared ; but the stationer being inhibited by publick authority ( and that as is thought at m. menzeis desire ) i was forced first to make it to be transcribed , and then fitted for abroad , where it is not easie to us , to have any thing well printed or returned in hast . 2. i must beg upon this account , the errata and faults in orthography may be excused , i not being present to correct them . 3. i desire none would think tedious or superfluous in some sections , very many quotations , yea some even here and there repeated ; for that in questions of fact , things cannot be otherwise proved ; and to remit the reader either to the first authours of them , or the places wherein they were cited before , or in other controversie books , were to divert his thoughts and attention , and put him to such pains as few will take . 4. i pray that he do not mistake me in refuting m. menzeis grounds , for i onely take to prove , that the scripture and doctrine of the primitive church can be no ground to protestants , denying an infallible visible judge , for both these as infallibly propounded by the true church , i most cordially imbrace , and wish all may do with me . an answer to a letter sent from aberdene , with mr. john menzeis his reply to mr. dempster , for reclaiming a country gentleman from popery . sir , your letter shewing equally such zeal for the protestant cause , and affection to me , hath made me read the book inclosed , with such a character of the writer , as carefully , as if it contained responses , and as impartially as if i were a seeker . the question here moved , i ingenuously grant , is the main point ( if solidly answered ) could best reclaim me , and most of my profession , who amid'st so many storms raised against us , have no small motive to comply , if we could look at present to our little temporal interest , without making a greater and eternal loss , whereof there could be no hazard , if protestants ( as is here debated ) could shew any assured and infallible ground for what they profess . this , sir , is all mr. dempster through all his ten papers requires , and we with him ; he propounds and states the question most clearly and smoothly , though in homely terms , by reason of his long absence from home ; he makes no digression from the main point , what ever be replyed beside : ( yet engageth after this point once decided , to answer what ever is here retorted , instanced , or urged against him ) he answers humbly and mildly , however provok'd with most bitter and lofty words ; like another fabius or old warriour , he keeps his post , neglecting all the flowrishes and skirmishes of his insulting adversary , who having engaged under his hand , to defend the protestant religion ( the onely occasion of this dispute ) strives still nevertheless ( f●de & arte punicâ ) that is most deceitfully , to impugne the catholick roman faith with a like success to that of hannibal , who let carthage be demolished and redacted to ashes , whil'st he insisted in vain to sack and ruine rome . and this is proper to him with most hereticks ; all heresy tending rather to destruction then edification , atheisme rather then religion , and to question what hath been since christ and his apostles constantly believed in the church of god , rather then to settle their own new wavering and inconstant faith , upon any solid principle or ground . yet mr. menzeis most confidently thinking he had got as an unbloody , so an undoubted victory ( hearing his adversary was dead ) petitions the senate of aberdene as for a triumph , that his papers may be put in print : his learning , loyalty , and religion most justly deserving it , for as he is of a daring and stirring spirit , so in all things martially minded , his learning being most in polemics , his loyalty much in debate , and his religion ever in controversy ; nevertheless as umpire in all , he deserveth well a crown , as his late late victory by the pen a chariot of paper . this his triumphal chariot is not drawn , but carried in the air , with high and violent blasts ; most suitable to his fierceness in fighting with a scolding and railing tongue , which makes his adversaries deepest wounds . before it , go indeed some worthy persons , at least in black upon white , and in the paper , follow immediately the flying colours , wherein his late arms sent from edenbrough , ( viz. the bible reversed ) do shine , with this new motto , i take from the present subject the grounds of the protestant religion . the acclamations of the people are not wanting in the mouthes of some sighing sisters . he is herauld himself , sounding constantly his own praises aloud ; nothing is brought into the treasury , as in triumphs had wont in old , but some hundred marks for the charges of the triumph ( that is , the printing of the papers ) exported . one thing onely is wanting , practised in such glorious showes , one admonitor sitting with the triumpher , to keep him in mind of humane weakness , least too great honour should so puff him up , as to think himself above the condition of men . and this defect , sir , i intend to supply , in perusing his book , advertising him now and then of some weakness , both in conduct , courage and strength , as his answers to the question propounded shall deserve . and first , if i should answer his most invective babling , scoldings , and railings , with all the venom he spits out to ciment the grounds of his religion , i could easily pay him home , even with the general applause and acclamations of most protestants , amongst whom the more moderate , and most constant professors scarce own him , his religion , or grounds ; as best knowing his arragant , proud , contentious spirit , his unbridled tongue , his scandalous carriage in so many encounters , his wavering belief , unsetled faith ; and how oft he hath been episcopal , presbyterian , independent : his pulpit jars with his collegue in the time of the covenant , his base complyance with the usurper in the time of rebellion , his variance with his bishop at the time , the government of the church was re-establisht ; how many living witnesses have heard him preach and foment schism , and divisions in the church , sedition in the state , and even treacherous and treasonable sermons against his prince and king. i instance only that base and perfidious bewraying of gods word , belying of the known truth ; and betraying of his countrey and king , in that most unchristian sermon , upon these words , how long wilt thou mourn for saul , whom i have rejected ? applying them to our most gracious soveraign ; which i should have been ashamed to relate , if this notorious impostor , and most absurd abuser of gods word , had not first in the preface of a sermon in print , and now again so often in this his book most deceitfully and maliciously cryed out , papists could be no good subjects , as if their tenets did tend to rebellion ; whil'st all loyal protestants in the three kingdoms , both love and respect our loyalty , how ever they hate our profession ; and look upon him , with all his covenanting fry , as a most fiery incendiary of rebellion . now sir , if such a man ( whom you most cry up for his eloquence , as , if like another samson , his strength consisted in his hair ) be a person fitted to give the grounds of religion , defend the protestant faith , or convert any one to his belief , for that with a pharisaical countenance , a puritanical tone , and a strong voice , colouring some slight learning and reading of pamphlets , with plagiary phrases and passages , to stuff up a book in print , and turn the glass twice in his sermons , let any be judge . as that philosopher of old , hearing himself praised by the rabble , who commonly approve nothing but such stuff as is in themselves , did presently make an examen of his actions : i hope protestants seeing their religion defended by such a writer , will more diligently enquire of its weakness , which they can never better see , then in his papers , where having undertaken to give the grounds of the protestant religion ( the only subject of this dispute , either by word or writ ) in them all has not ( as his adversary well re-marks ) so much as ten lines to settle , clear , or defend them in the least ; but scraping together objections against catholicks ( so often answered by them ) borrows some passages to no purpose at present , and heaps up undervaluing words , with such injurious scoldings , railings , and imprecations against an old , grave , learned , and modest man , that after he hath called him an impudent liar , a knave , rogue , sycophant , fool , a dull and lethargick-head , a neat-herd in ignorance , a devil in malice , and what not ? he imprecates in fine ( out of his corrupt bible , changing the word imperet , with im●re●et ) the same curse saint michael did in their conflict to the devil , such is the pride , passion , and poison of his heart , so contrary to the spirit of god. after this , what may we expect of such a person , if we hear the wise mans saying , in malevolam animam non introibit sapientia : true wisdom never enters into a wicked and malicious soul ; yet sir , to satisfie your loving and friendly desire , i intend to examine more at length , what wit and learning he shews , and first in his two long epistles dedicatory , and to the reader , which could receive no answer , from mr. dempster , as appearing but a twelvemonth after his death : after this , god willing , i wil positively refute ( which he so urges may be done ) first , his great principle of no infallible visible judge of controversie , and then both his ruinous grounds . sect . i. some brief reflections on the title of mr. menzei's book , and his two long epistles dedicatory , and to the reader . his title being in latine papismus lucifugus , ( according to that saying , a strong thief shall have a strange name , ) must needs be explained , and surely understood of that new gospel light in the covenant , for in it mr. menzeis was a bright star of the first magnitude , or fiery comet himself , of which light , a prelatick poet in answer to a satyre , upon the consecration of a bishop , writes thus , your phoebus from the west did rise a light that did put out mens eyes , welcome confusion . this light indeed popery shuns , as all other new lights against old received christian verities ; but not that either of scripture or antiquity , the onely true light of the christian world , as flowing from christ the s●n of justice , and carried by so many holy popes , bishops , and priests in communion with them , even unto the most remote corners of the earth , as the conversion of all kings and countries to the christian religion do testifie , which light mr. dempster , no where declines , but constantly holds out to make nothing for clearing the grounds of the protestant religion , except it be in shewing them both ruinous and false , so that mr. menzeis here , offendit in luce & in limine , that is , stumbles both in the light , and in the specious title of his book , whereof the very first line is not to the purpose . the question being only of the grounds of the protestant religion , and not of popery at all . he begins with a great show of humility , who am i , the meanest of the thousands of israel ? answer , est qui se nequiter humiliat & interiora ejus plena dolo , eccles . — 19. but let his late bishop in the church , principal in the colledge , and fellow brethren in the ministery bear witness of this , when they have opposed him in the least : yea , his own jactancy through all his papers and book , with his base revilings in every page , and under-valuing of his adversary . it is those his humble thoughts of his own abilities makes him so boldly assert there was consultation used in the present dispute , surprizal intended , and a choice champion pitched upon to encounter with him as a hector . but the known truth is to all them who had a hand in the undertaking ( as they did witness in his presence at the meeting ) that they had only yielded to his importunity in desiring a meeting , and that they had taken him only who was next at hand for the time , a man most able indeed for a civil conference , but most unable for a clamorous dispute , as being of a very weak constitution , and of a totally confiscated health . but all this conference must be set out by him in a disguised dress ; mr. dempster proclaimed an ignorant , catholicks charged with calumnies , the better to paint out his victory and triumph . as in like case another conference ( as he quotes ) by dr. prideaux ; and dr. featly of late , whom he might have spared to name , being as good at calumniating inventions as either of them , and no doubt but he will be cited hereafter , as they now , who nevertheless most deceitfully relates both the occasion of the conference , and what passed in it . the clamours of women he speaks of , if any ( for it was a most modest person did speak ) was onely to suppress his clamours heard even at the cross , and witness to his face , that he had passed from his engagement to them , which was to give and defend the grounds of the protestant religion , as he had engaged under his hand ; and this his missive , was the paper mr. dempster kept open at the meeting ( which he would have generally supposed to have been the first exchanged paper with him ) but it is particularly known to us , mr. dempster had never then intended to write a line . but mr. menzeis cautious , and conscious to himself , that it had been easie to reverse his grounds , and involve him in inextricable difficulties ( as shall hereafter appear ) if he had answered directly by word , refuses the performance of his promise , or to speak for the protestant religion at all , but will only impugne some opinions of authours in the school , which are neither fit for the pulpit , ( where he did first challenge them ) nor the capacity of common hearers , and much less that which he chiefly insisted on , any point of our faith. the first is , that men are not bound presently to repent when ever they have offended god , under the danger of incurring a new sin ; whereupon mr. menzeis frameth his argument , as if this were a dicision of the catholick roman church ; and then sayes he , mr. dempster denied the major , whence he took witness that the jesuit admitted the minor , a rare inference and quick . he passeth under silence the confirmation of the major denied , because disgraceful to him , who though he did think it a point of faith , and that so unquestionable , yet could never prove it by scripture , contenting himself with a weak comparison , which he is ashamed to set down in his book . but however doctors vary in prescribing a limited time wherein we should repent , all hold the shortest delay both surest and best , and publick repentance is generally taught to be necessary for publick transgressions , as publick recantations for open calumnies , like to that of mr. menzies against his soveraign , how long wilt thou mourn for saul , &c. his penitential sermon being as yet to make , so well doth he presently repent . yea , not only his practice , but doctrine also ( if truly a protestant ) is so far from presently repenting , that teaching mens best actions to be sinful , he must either confess repentance at no time to be commanded , or else blasphemously avouch , god hath commanded us to sin . is it not a jearing of gods commands , and a scoffing of men , to affirm the commandements to be impossible , and yet urge that even affirmative ones should be hourly , and instanly kept ? forgetting two maxims of the school , nemo tenetur ad impossibile , and praecepta affirmitativa obligant semper sed non pro semper . in the second argument , he both argues and and answers to himself , ( mr. dempster being silenced by his clamours ) concerning the intention of priests in administring the sacraments , which if requisite , he will have it to make all faith uncertain . but in vain , there being greater assurance of their intention , then that ministers use aright the elements , and pronounce the words , or that they teach not false doctrine , and set not out corrupt bibles . the assistance of gods spirit promised to his church , and his particular providence in governing and ruling it , assures us nothing necessary either to faith or salvation can be wanting in her ; no want of intention can wrong them who are come to age , they may supply by their own intentions , desires , and acts of the love of god : and for children whom protestants ▪ will have to be saved by the faith of their parents , and not by baptism , is it not more sure , that publick persons in the church want not a right intention , then that private men have true faith ? the conferring of a sacrament is not only actio hominis i hope , but also humana , as the divines speak . what then if a mad man in a frolick , or a comedian for a jeer , ( as we read to have been done in derision of christians ) should pour out water on any one , and pronounce the words ? yea , what if a priest shewing a new convert how he is to be baptized , should do the same ? were these lawful and valid baptisms , where nothing save the intention is wanting . it is easie to cavil at the chief heads of the christian religion , but hard to say any thing solidly against them . after this ; he comes to his apologies , first , for so much writing on so little purpose ; answer , he should have said , so little to the purpose , there scarce being ten lines precisely to the purpose in all his papers and book . secondly , that he was not so speedy in answering as mr. dempster , upon his incombacy's ; and upon deliberating whether he should answer , the emptiness of mr. dempsters scriblings , who antidated his papers , yet that he might guess with apelles , at his great hast by his foul work . answer , his greatest imcombacy's , as i am informed , are but to dite and declaim bellarmines objections , or such like , out of other controversy books : and if it be an empty question to ask the grounds of his religion ; sure it must be an empty religion , and void of grounds . neither did mr. dempster antidate his papers , but did write back to him as currantly as any man could do a missive letter , never intending they should see the press , and finding very little solidity in his answers . he guesses at his great hast by his foul work , but can shew nothing foul in it , save onely when he resumes his filthy scoldings : but we may easily guess at his little wit by his foolish work and answers no where to the purpose . his third apology , is for the acrimony and bitterness of his expressions , which he sayes had their rise from mr. dempsters dunghil eloquence , repetitions , praeteritions , calumnies . answer , mr. menzies scoldings are the only eloquence of the dunghil : most learned men oftentimes be not very eloquent in the vulgar tongue . as to his repetitions , he is no good disputant , who passes from his medium before the argument be answered . for preteritions , all wise men pass what is not to the purpose , as most of his papers and book . and as for calumnies , i leave to his papers to justifie his modesty , however mr. menzies most injuriously calumniate him . in his epistle to the reader , he continues his apologies for disputing , writing , printing , granting one might have said more in a very few sheets , for the satisfaction of a lover of truth , then he in all his papers , and this is most true ; nay , but he has been constrained to follow the anomalous motions of a tautologizing jesuit . answer , these two words set together sound well in a pulpit , but signifie nothing or little : for how can his motion be anomalous or irregular , who steers still to the same point , constantly propounding the same thing ? or how can he be said to tautologize and use idle repetitions , who insists still in the same question , till he get a full and satisfactory answer ? as if a man come to require his money from a debtor , should hear from him many news of the late wars , and then asking again his money , the debtor should speak of our new league with many forraign princes : but the creditor still mindful of the main , did reiterate the occasion of his coming , and ask a new , when he could expect his money ? were this a tautologizing , and vain repetition ? and in this sense i grant mr. dempster tautologizes , and in no other . but are not rather mr. menzies many instances in this his epistle against the catholick faith , and so many times repeated in his book , both tautologies and anomalous motions , as altogether false , frivolous , idle , and impertinent to the present question , concerning the grounds of the protestant religion ? wherefore i reflect only on the last , viz. that popish principles , as improven by the jesuited party , are highly injurious to princes , ergo , the protestant religion hath solid grounds ; for this should be his inference in all he sayes : and this an arch covenanter is not ashamed to write , who so treasonably , and publickly did preach against his lawful soveraign ; but the love and esteem , so many of the greatest and wisest monarches in the christian world have for jesuits , sufficiently vindicate them from all the calumnies of such a disloyal person . after this he sayes , if he know his own genius well , he takes no pleasure in altercations : answer he is then of a most austere nature , who so shuns all pleasure ; for it seems mr. menzeis lives in altercations , as the salamander in the fire , all his preachings and writings being full of them . he delights so to cavil , that he lets not pass mr. dempsters orthographick trespasses , which should have been at most imputed to his amanuensis or scriviner . but , if mr. menzeis were as orthodox as orthographick , all were well . in his voyage to london to complement the usurper , he made himself orthographick in the english tongue ; but coming down an independent , he was far from an orthodox mind , yet thinks to keep up some reputation amongst protestants , by his imputations on jesuits . no hope , sayes he , of prevailing with the jesuited faction , whose design as appears , is to keep up a stated schism in christendom , they hinder the conversion of jews and infidels . answer , no sir , it is only the hidra of heresy , and chiefly yours , divided in so many heads , keeps up schism and division from the church , and amongst themselves ; which monster jesuits strive to suppress , they , yea , one of them , called saint francis xavier , hath converted more infidels to the christian and catholick religion in ten years time , then all the protestants in the world , for a hundred and fifty , if all records of history be more worthy of credit , then you . the conversion of jews , infidels , hereticks as ever in old times , so constantly now , is a mark of the true church , to which hereticks can no wise pretend , whose business is to pervert catholicks , rather then to convert infidels , as saint hierome well remarks , so that in all prudence , this he should not have mentioned , his younger brethren the jansenists , ( of whom he borrows most of his objections against jesuits ) speak not of this , being no little ashamed , when yearly the notable conversions of so many thousand infidels , only by jesuits , and other priests in communion with the sea of rome , come out , wherein neither they nor he have any hand . next amongst many controverted points obstructive to the peace and unity of the catholick church , he sets down first , the churches infallibility , as if the true church were not infallible , both according to the scripture and fathers ( as i shall , god willing , hereafter prove at length ) or as if the church being infallible , peace and unity could not be had . secondly , the popes universal supremacy , as obstructing unity , forgetting what st. hierome sayes , l. 1. in jovin . that even amongst the apostels themselves , one was made head , that the occasion of schism and division might be taken away , ut capite constituto schismatis tolleretur occasio : doth the popes supremacy in the whole church hinder peace and unity , more then my lord archbishops primacy in the kingdom ? is not this a fling at bishops in their diocesses , and the primate in each nation , to say their supremacy over inferiour pastors , is a let and stop to peace and unity in the church ? so all covenanting ministers speak with him , the unity they aim at being nothing but a monopoly to set themselves above pope and primate , upon the ruines of both church and state. are not these strong and witty objections , put in the frontispiece of his book , as in the van ? the rest i prosecute not , they being the ordinary controverted tenets betwixt protestants and us , answered in every pamplet of controversie ; but the last is too remarkable to let it pass : nay , says he , is it not one of the first queries wherewith jesuites do assault our people , how do you know scripture to be the word of god ? as if they would have people rather turn atheists , then remain protestants . a very pretty reply ; shews not this his answer , jesuits and others have great reason to move the question , to which so great a divine can not better reply . protestants call scripture their ground of faith , but can evidence by no sufficient motive of credibility , ( standing to their principles ) this book they call scripture , is the true and authentick word of god , should not mr. menzeis then have setled , cleared , and vindicated from all objections and cavils this his ground ? but that could have diverted him from impugning the romish faith : no it would have done more against it , then all his calumnies of idolatry ; being more to the purpose , yea ended , ( to the protestants great advantage ) all the present debate , but all mr. menzeis can answer , is to call the question atheistical , and a demand proper to infidels ; as if good christians might not ask for instruction , how they may prudently believe , and firmly adhere to the grounds of their religion and faith. in fine , he says , many romanists have called for reformation . answer , true , and do as yet daily call for reformation in life and manners , but not in matters of belief , none of them with protestants , presuming to correct gods word , and reform the doctrine of his church , or to censure their pastors , and all the ancient fathers , with pharisaical , and puritanical pride . this way of calling for reformation was proper to protestants at their first rise , for reforming the catholick roman church , and again in the covenant for the reforming their own ; they like foxes indeed , ( to use mr. menzeis comparison ) did raise such dust ( not to say worse ) with their tails and heads both , that ever since , the very air they breath is infected , and their eyes so blinded , that they cannot open them to see the manifest truth . after all this , fearing his book may have a reply , he desires all things then be noticed he hath said . answer , no , this his demand is most unreasonable , that at the time one only question is in debate , and that a main one , concerning the grounds of the protestant religion , any thing else should be taken notice of , till this be put to a closure . on this all the protestant religion depends ; let their grounds be proved solid , and we have done ; for by that we look not on his digressions as golden apples , to make us run out of our way in the least ; they being scarce like to the apples of sodom ( in his confused rapsody ) that is pleasant to the eye , though no less rotten in the heart , as who has best right to the root and tree , may justly claim the branches and fruit ; so whoever proves he hath the true grounds of religion , may easily prove all superstructures on this ground to be true , the accessary followeth the principal ; and this is the chief and principal question amongst us ; let this be once decided in their favour , and we have no more process with them . secondly , he desires nothing be brought has been answered by protestants . answer , if he had given example in this , he had never written a line : however , if any thing has been solidly answered , to what i bring against his great principle , of no infallible visible judge of controversie , or both his grounds , as i most sincerely protest , it never did come to my hands , so let mr. menzeis send it me , and here an end . thirdly , that personal criminations be laid aside . answer , then these personal criminations , when he calls mr. dempster a dull and lethargy-head , a neat-herd , a man of a prostitute reputation , a knave , a sycophant , a devil , should have been blotted out of his book . as infamous persons are not received for witnesses , so calumnies can be no wise sooner refuted , then by shewing that he who calumniates has lost all reputation and credit . if it were not softly insinuated , what a quick wit mr. menzeis is , who names mr. dempster a dull and lethargy-head : how learned a pastor , who calls him a neat-herd ; how famous , who challenges him to be of a prostitute reputation ; how honest , who calls him a rogue and a knave ; how sincere and ingenuous , who terms him a sycophant : and how great a saint , who compares him to a devil , his sole authority in print might perhaps endanger mr. dempsters good name , wherefore he must not take ill a little hath been said of this , not for criminations , but as answers to calumnies , and notorious falshoods ; especially his apology being the greatest of his wrongs , as if mr. dempster had extorted them , he was forced to it , because for sooth , he can suffer no man to withstand him , or not to be satisfied with what he brings : this is all the injury we read in mr. dempsters papers , which can be no excuse certainly to him , who easily foreseeing what might be replyed , dare glory with job , he takes injuries for a crown , citing as a heroick word in luther , indies magis mihi placeo , superbus fio , quod video nomen pessimum mihi crescere . i please my self more and more daily , yea i become proud , to see that i have got a very ill name , and that it grows upon me ; which if true , his pleasure may be great , and his pride too , for few of his coat after luther have got a worse name , for changes in religion , jars and contentions with his brethren , disobedience to his bishop , and disloyalty to his prince . here presently to set up his good name a little , he playes the prophet , striving to pry into mr. dempsters intentions and thoughts , why he slighted all the points stated by him , and instances only that he should prove , there be two sacraments and no more ; but here the spirit fails him in all his divinations , the only reason of this being , for that all other controverted tenets with protestants are borrowed from divers old condemned heresies , and this only proper to them . however , mr. dempster should have proved seven sacraments . answer , no , not this , or any thing else ( in the present dispute , as not to the purpose ) save only , that protestants for their religion could shew no solid ground , this he sticks to , this he insists upon , and this only whilest mr. menzeis like a bird ever upon wing flies from branch to branch , a mark of no great constancy , and solidity , either in wit or learning . but he will needs bring in the romish religion by the head and shoulders upon the stage , and have mr. dempster to decline it be tryed by scripture , and the doctrine of the church in the first three ages . answer , the romish religion has no part in the present scene , neither is master dempster acting any thing directly in defence of it , but impugning the protestant grounds , and this mr. menzeis in his first answer clearly grants ; his words are : the thesis — then which we defend , and you impugne is this : the protestant religion is the true religion ; no mention here of the catholick roman faith , and yet mr. menzeis in all his papers and books speaks very little for the protestant religion , but always against the popish , laying aside the thesis which he sets down himself , as his text so often in the pulpit , to rail at random against us . and this with a like sincerity and candor , as when he says , quakerism is but popery under a disguise . answer , then most men mistake it , thinking it so far from popery under what ever disguise , that it is nothing but puritanism , in puris naturalibus , and undisguised . is the private spirit our ground and guide ? do we allow laicks and women to preach ? or private persons whatsoever , upon pretence of new gospel light to reform the church ? this presbyterians and puritans in the beginning of the reformation , and again in the covenant , did with them : yea on the same very ground , of adhering to the pure word , and to the spirit and light within them , against all authority in church and state ; is not this the quakers chief argument against protestants , when they ask their power and call : we are come to reform you , say they , and all your hirelings , even as you the papists and priests ; we ground our selves on the pure and naked word ; the spirit speaketh within us ; we regard not men ; church , councels , fathers have erred . which answer , mr. menzeis if constant to his own principles , with all his needle-headed nicities ( as he speaks ) will hardly refute . in fine , he sayes , romanists boast his papers shall have an answer ; these six moneths might have done it ; our reply will discover we apprehend some danger ; &c. answer , few romanists do think his papers deserve a reply , yea , nor their pains to read them , as saying little to the purpose ; much less do they esteem the enterprise to answer them so high , as it should be called a boast : he who rather contends with us in solidity of reason , then celerity of dispatch , will neverthleess have this expected answer six moneths before his book did appear , at which time he makes the magistrates command the stationer under the highest pains , that he should print no reply . yet after his book has been a twelve moneth under the press at home , we may have a book printed at a start abroad , neither is there such hast in replying for any danger we apprehend , his railings never having wronged catholicks in the least , but much protesiants , many whereof have turned quakers , to hear tub-preachers professing greater modesty , sincerity , yea , and solidity in belief , then he ; who by his frequent changes in religion , from prelaticks to presbyterians , from presbyterians to independants , from independants to i know not whom again , is more like the weathercock on the steeple ( turning at every wind ) then the member of any one church . his exclamations wherewith he concludes his two long epistles , are both ludibrious and childish , in misapplying so many scripture phrases to the catholick roman church , whose faith is so highly commended by the apostle st. paul , and holy fathers in all ages ; who ever amongst them did tax her of errour , flie her communion , renounce her faith , decline her censures , question her authority , disapprove her doctrine , or chalenge the supreme power and headship of her bishop ? in the second age st. irenaeus extols her authority ; all churches ( says he , l. 3. c. 3. ) round about ought to resort to the roman church , by reason of her more powerful principality . in the third , st. cyprian ep. 55. calls her st. peters chair , and the principal church , to which infidelity or false doctrine cannot have access . in the fourth , st. athanasius has his recourse , both to her bishop and her , against all his adversary hereticks . in the fifth , st. augustine thinks her sentence an end of controversie , scripsimus romam , roma rescriptum est , quaestio finita est , &c. and in following ages do not st. gregory , st. german , st. john damascene venerable bede , st. bernard , st. thomas of aquine , and generally all the fathers and doctors of the church the same ? so that i answer his places of scripture , as st. augustine petilian's the donatist heretick , l. 2. c. 5. he brings the words of the law , but takes not heed against whom , as the devil speaks scripture to christ , not discerning to whom . verba legis dicitis sed in quos dicitis , non attenditis , sicut diabolus verba legis dicebat sed cui diceret non agnoscebat . and with the same st. augustine , i answer to all mr. menzeis pretended victory and triumph over mr. dempster . facile est ut quisque augustinum vincat , quanto magis ut vicisse videatur , aut si non videatur , vicisse dicatur facile est , st. aug. ep. 174. sect . ii. wherein the question is stated , as propounded by mr. dempster , and mr. menzeis great principle and grounds set down as cleared by him ; with the design of the author thereon . the sole argument that i find mr. dempster urges in all his papers , in substance runs thus , in this one syllogism . that religion cannot be a true religion , which hath no peculiar principle or ground to prove that it is a true religion , and conform to the true sense of the word of god. but the protestant religion hath no peculiar ground or principle to prove it self the true religion , &c. then the protestant religion cannot be true . mr. menzeis cavils at this syllogism , as not being in form , both the premises being negatives , as well as the conclusion . mr. dempster answers , the second is affirmative , and only objectively negative : as if one should say in latin ( wherein the form of syllogisms best appears ) sed omnis religio protestantium est talis , ut nullum habeat peculiare fundamentum quo se probet veram , or else , est habens nullum peculiare fundamentum , &c. which the least logician in the colledge presently sees to be an affirmative proposition : and yet what clamours hath not mr. menzeis made for this ? as if at the first bout he had disarmed his adversary : so well this great professor of divinity is versed in logick , that he cannot resolve and answer a proposition , if not set down as to a bajan : like to that young man who lately come from the fencing-school , and hardly put to it , mistaking the thrust , is put off his guard , and so both wounded and mocked . so the syllogism standing in good form , the first proposition in it suffers no debate . the second is denyed by protestants , whereupon they are required to produce this peculiar ground which proves their religion to be true . master menzeis after many wheelings , turnings , and windings in his scoldings , digressions , retorsions , at the end brings two grounds for the protestant religion . the first scripture , and that clear in fundamentals , or things necessary to salvation . the second , its agreement in essentials , with the faith of the purest and most ancient primitive church , in the first three centuries or ages . to clear his first ground ( which in his sixth paper he storms to have called his achilles or strength , seeing he had given another , which it seems he holds no less strong then it ) he sets down , that all scriptures are not clear : secondly , that protestants do not exclude means of interpretation . thirdly , by perspicuity , he understands in terms , or by firm and clear consequence . fourthly , that by this perspicuity again , he means an external and objective evidence which is nothing impeached , by the misunderstanding of hereticks or others . fifthly , that by things necessary , is here understood , whither necessary as means , or as commands . what he cites in his eight paper , as maximes taken out of george scholarius a grecian , is but to the same purpose with what he hath formerly said . one onely thing i add , which he urges most in all his book , that though protestants do not exclude means of interpretation in explaining of scripture , and in deducing consequences from it , yet no necessity there is , that we should know that he who gives the true interpretation and sense , have the assistance of the holy ghost , because forsooth , this savours rankly ( says he ) of that erroneous popish tenet , concerning the necessity of an infallible visible judg of controversie : whereof he proves in his third paper there is none , for that a jurist without any such infallible assistance , may be known to explain aright a municipal law , and a mathematician to demonstrate a proposition of euclydes . this is the state of the question , as propounded by mr. dempster , and this in substance is mr. menzeis answer to it , their debate is long ; mr. dempster constantly putting mr. menzeis to it , that he would prove these grounds to be peculiar to protestants , and support their controverted tenets with us ; but this he still declines to bring any positive proof for either , desiring his adversary should rather positively prove the contrary . no says mr. dempster , make good your assertion , as he who affirms should prove ; i will not be so put off of my medium , i have taken against you : let us see the grounds you build on in the sence you take them , and without any infallible visible judg of controversie , assuring you either of the uncorrupt writings , and sincere doctrine of the fathers in the first three ages , or of the uncorrupt letter , and genuine sense of scripture , first , to be solid and infallible , and then to agree peculiarly to you , and the business is done . you confidently assert both ; but what sectary sayes not the same ? their claim to the foresaid grounds , say ye , is meerly pretended ; rests to see how your own is proved as just . many digressions and retorsions against popery are made : many protestant writers spoken of who have done this , but nothing as either borrowed from them , or as laid out by himself is brought in : many passages of the fathers are misapplyed ; many cavils , criminations and calumnies are objected : many strong words , as logomachies , vertigo's , — and needle-headed nicities , with prophecies from poets are used ; a great part of erasmus chilias spent in proverbs : much paper blotted , but what concluded ? i shall not here interpose my judgment , as mr. menzeis publishes his victory , as trumpet in the triumph himself , leaving to each one to read and judge of the papers ; adding only of him , what was said of a prolix and tedious orator , who on little matter spent much time in many flourishes of words , and frequent digressions . nullum vidi qui magis operosè nihil diceret . multa sed non multum . magni passus sed extra viam . seneca . that is , i have seen none take greater pains to say nothing ; he sayes many things , but not much ; he walks at a great pace , but out of the way . for me as i mind not here , actum agere , so neither do i presume to add any thing to what mr. dempster has said in his way of disputing , which i acknowledge both the shortest and best , to make mr. menzeis prove his grounds ; but he ever declining this , and urging we should shew in them any weakness or defect ; this i here undertake for mr. menzeis further conviction , and happily some protestants conversion , by the goodness and mercy of god. my design being to prove positively the falshood and nullity , as well of his great principle , of no infallible visible judg , as of both his grounds , and that very succinctly , in a few sections , without digressing in the least , or medling with what hath been said . sect . iii. wherein mr. menzeis great principle , that there is no infallible visible judge of controversie in the true church is positively refuted , as the main ground of all divisions , schisms , and heresies , and contrary to the scriptures , fathers , and reason . as all rebellion in kingdoms and common-wealths , has its rise from contempt of the lawful authority of princes and magistrates , upon the specious pretence of abuse of power , against the laws of the kingdom , and liberties of the subjects : so all heresies in the church begin with appeals from the pastors of the church , ( the only judges establisht by christ ) to his written word , which is to all christians as their law book . lex rex , cry out rebels with their calipha buchanan : lex judex , or nolo verba quae non sunt scripta , answers the heretick with an arian in the councel of nice . they will believe what they read , and not what they hear ; though the apostle teach us , that faith comes of hearing , and the reason is , because with mr. menzeis , they acknowledge none speaking in matters of faith and religion infallible . no infallible visible judge . this is indeed that great principle protestants did broach to themselves in the beginning of reformation , and at their very first leaping out from the church , they would admit of no infallible visible judge , stand to no sentence or decree of church , councils , fathers . now this principle being supposed by them to be solid , and an unquestionable truth , nothing can follow thereon , but what is true . ex vero nil nisi verum , and consequently any private protestant reading scripture with a sincere intention , may , yea ought to adhere to what he thinks to be in scripture , should all the protestant church , with all her assemblies , synods , preachers be of a contrary mind . upon this , luther and calvin leave the catholick roman church , and all visible congregations in the christian world at that time , because sayes chamiers ep. 49. ( though mr. menzeis deny it was so ) then apostacy averted the whole body from christ. they made all the kings and people drunk , from the first to the last , says calvin , inst . l. 4. c. 18. and whitaker , cont. 4. q. 5. c. 3. no religion but the papistical had place in the church . duditius apud bezam ; ep. 1. sayes more , if that be true which the fathers have professed , with mutual consent , it is altogether on the papists side . upon this same principle , innumerable other sects and sectaries , have left again protestants , and the protestant church upon this , and this only principle ; every particular man reading scripture , and taking it as he thinks both words and sense clear , is made his own judge , and so as many heads almost , as many sentences , and diverse opinions in religion : some thinking scripture clear for this , some for that sect , some admitting or rejecting whole books of scripture at their pleasure : yea some , and that too too many seeing most clear scripture tossed and wrested by contrary sects , suspend their judgment , renounce their faith , and quit all religion , not knowing with what party to side . others in fine , who think themselves deeper wits , as they are more speculative and searching brains , having run through all can be said , to ascertain any point of faith ( save only the divine oracle in the church ) have turned scepticks in religion , grounding themselves on meer probability . which seed of infidelity ( sayes the author of a treatise , intituled faith vindicated from possibility of falshood ) sowen , when the infallible authority of the church , as the rule of faith , was renounced , dared , first appear publickly above ground , in the writings of mr. chillingworth , and the l. falkland , dressed up in a plausible rhetorick , and set out under a yet more pleasant title to protestants , as being against popery , was most graciously received by many . yea when it appeared in mr. tilletson his eloquent and famous sermon , did begin to get credit , as an evangelical truth ; and all this upon the foresaid great principle . upon it the holy work of reformation by private men , opposing the law and gospel , to the judicial sentence and decrees of the whole catholick church : upon it the glorious work of the covenant by some factious zelots against prince and pastors in the protestant church : upon it preachers and pulpits clash at randome , sects and sectaries multiply , the christian world is put in confusion with endless jars and debates in religion : and all this because there is no infallible judge of controversie , to give sentence in favour of any one party silencing all others . in a word for that ( according to protestants ) god hath given us a law without a judg , however inconsistent this may seem , with order , providence and wisdom . this one principle , i say once more with the great st. augustine , serm. 14. de verbis ap. ruines the very grounds of religion . in aliis quaestionibus non diligenter digestis non plenâ ecclesiae authoritate firmatis , ferendus est disputator errans , ibi ferendus error : non tamen progredi debet ut fundamentum ipsum ecclesiae quatere moliatur : according to the same st. augustine , ib. whosoever run their heads , were they never so great , ( with mr. menzeis ) against this inexpugnable wall of the church authority , are crusht . hoc habet authoritas matris eccelsiae , hoc fundatus veritatis obtinet canon , contra hoc robur , contra hunc inexpugnabilem murum quisquis arietat ipse confringitur . is it not on the church her infallible authority , st. augustine admits the scriptures , contr . ep. fund . c. 5. ego vero evangelio non crederem nisi me ecclesiae commoveret authoritas ; doth he not stick so close to the same authority of the church , that he sayes , ep. fund . c. 4. if any clear testimony were brought out of scripture against it , he would neither believe scripture nor church , for that on the church her authority he believed the scripture . quod si for●e in evangelio aliquid apertissimum de manichaei apostolatu invenire potueris , infirmabis mihi catholicorum authoritatem , qui jubent ut tibi non credam quâ infirmatâ jam nec evangelio credere potero , quia per eos illi credideram . was not the church judge in religion for the first two thousand years , before any scriptures were written ? was not again the church of the jews the same judge after the law was given , till christ his time , and this by the express order of god in scripture , deut. 17. v. 8. would god there direct them unto a judge , and punish them with death , for not obeying in matters of the law and religion , an authority which might any wise deceive them ? or in the law of grace it self , has christ in st. matth. 18. v. 17. commanded us to hear a church not infallible or subject to errour ? is not the church of god built on a rock , so that the gates of hell shall not prevail against her , s. matth. 16.19 . has not the church this promise from christ , s. matth. 28.20 . and loe i am with you , even to the end of the world . is not the church called by the apostle s. paul , 1 tim. 3.13 . the ground and pillar of truth ? however mr. menzeis will have this ground sole scripture . in fine , if these and such like texts we should hear the church , receive her decisions , obey her commands , be not clear , what is clear in all the scripture ? or if they be subject to diverse interpretations , who can better judge of their true sense , then the same church ? will you say natural reason with the socinians , or the private spirit , with anabaptists , and quakers , or conferring of places and passages with protestants ? is there any one more rational then the whole church of god ? any spirit to be trusted , rather then the spirit of truth promised to her ? or any one better versed in all the places of scripture , then all the bishops and pastors of the church composing her supreme judicatory in a general council . let us hear i pray you the fathers upon this i mean the authority both of church and councils , as an infallible visible judge , the better to silence mr. menzeis vain glorious bragging . s. irenaeus l. 1. c. 49. we must believe those priests that are in the church , those that have a succession from the apostles , who together with episcopal power , have according to the good pleasure of the father , received the certain gift of truth . and again the same s. irenaeus c. 62. the church shall be under no mans judgment ( he excepts not mr. menzeis , yea nor luther , nor calvin to reform her ) for to the church all things are known , in which is perfect faith of the father , and of the dispensation of christ , and firm knowledge of the holy ghost , who teacheth all truth . origen praef . in lib. periarch . that only is to be believed for truth , which in nothing disagrees from the tradition of the church , and in understanding scripture , we must not believe otherwise , then as the church of god hath by succession delivered to us . s. cyprian de unit . eccl . that the church cannot be adulterated with heresy . s. chrysostom in c. 2. is , that all the hereticks in the world cannot pervert her doctrine . s cyril of jerusalem , catech. myst . 18. that what she once hath received from christ , she ever holds . s. cyril of alexandria , l. 5. in is . c. 54. that she is founded by christ in truth for 〈◊〉 . s. ambrose , l. 4. hexam . c. 2. that she cannot fail . eusebius caesariensis de praeparat evang. l. 1. c. 3. that her faith is invincible to the very powers of hell. s. augustine l. 4. de bapt . c. 4. i know by divine revelations , that the spirit of truth teacheth the church all truth . s. augustine again , l. de utilit . cred . c. 16. fear not to run to the bosom of the church , which by succession of bishops descending from the apostolical sea , manifestly even to the acknowledgment of all mankind , hath obtained the height of authority , hereticks who on every side barked against her being partly by the consent of nations , partly by the authority of councils , partly by the majesty of miracles condemned , to which church not to yield primacy , is a point either of highest impiety , or headlong arrogancy . in fine , the same s. augustine ep. 118. to think not right what the catholick church practises , is most insolent madness . i leave to the physicians judgment , what foot of this distemper and madness had the first reformers of the church , not only thinking and calling what she practised idolatry and superstition , but even judging and condemning her of apostacy , schism , and heresy , as mr. menzeis here of arrogancy and pride ; odi ecclesiae illius fastum , i hate says he that churches pride , speaking of the catholick roman church , for calling her self infallible , but let me answer him as plato diogen . calcas ecclesiae fastum majore fastu , he most persumptuously accuses her of pride , no lawful establisht judicatory , being proud in censuring private delinquents as they deserve , but rebels to their lawful judges in censuring them , both presumptuous and proud with him . but least any with mr. menzeis should apply all these testimonies of the fathers , to the diffusive body of the church , and not to the representative in a general council , as if the one were infallible in believing , and not the other in teaching , according to that promise of christ , in s. matth. 28.20 . go teach all nations , and lo i am with you all days to the end of the world . we must remark that when the necessary good , and preservation of the church requires the performance of christs words and promises in future ages , no less then in the apostles time , then we are to take them , for all ages , except there be some express limitation made , as to preach , baptise , remit sins , feed his flock , lead men in all truth , &c. yet because each apostle had a power over all the church , this is said to every one of them , but to their successors , who have not each one this power , together in a council , which for this all the fathers in all ages have acknowledged as a soveraign and infallible judicatory , what ever mr. menzeis standing to his great principle , say to the contrary . thus s. cyril l. 10. de trin . averres decrees of general councils to be most holy and divine oracles . s. leo ep. 37.64 . a sentence inspired by the holy ghost . s. epiphanius haeres . 77. a decision not to be questioned . s. athanasius ep. ad episc . afric . the word of god which endureth for ever . s. basil ep. 10. the touch-stone to discern hereticks . vincensius lyrinensis in his book against heresies c. 4. says , all who will not be accounted hereticks , must conform themselves to the decrees of oecumenical or general councils . s. augustine ep. 162. calls them the last sentence can be expected in matters of faith. s. gregory the great l. 1. ep. 24. reverences the first four general councils as the four evangills . and constantine the great , the first christian emperour , ep. ad eccle . alex. as witness sozomenus , l. 1. c. 24. and socrates l. 1. c. 6. holds the decrees of the council of nice , against arius , a divine sentence flowing from the mouths of so many , and great bishops inspired by the holy ghost . wherefore s. augustine de bapt . contra donat . l. 1. c. 7. concludes , that no doubt ought to be made , of what is by full decree establisht in a council . neither is mr. menzeis objection from him of any force , for when he speaks , l. 2. de bapt . c. 3. of mending councils by councils upon further experience , his words are , cum aliquo rerum experimento aperitur quod clausum est , & cognoscitur quod latebat , clearly shewing he means not any decision of faith can be mended , which no experience can learn us , but divine revelation alone can teach . thus to shun prolixity in citations , do not all the fathers who were ever present at councils , subscribe their canons and decrees , annexing anathemas and excommunications against all who oppose them in the least . i hear mr. menzeis reply to all this first ▪ but where is that infallible church the scriptures and fathers speak of ? answer , that is not here the question , but that there is one , which is contradictory to his great principle , that there is no infallible visible judge . only i add the protestant church cannot be this , they speak of , she not being infallible as themselves confess , and consequently cannot be the church and house of god , which the apostle calls the ground and pillar of truth . secondly , how many questions may be moved touching the lawfulness of councils , now the fathers speak not of the council of trent , but only of lawful ones ? answer , a contentious spirit will question any thing ; but st. augustine above cited , tells you of what is by full decree establisht in a council , no doubt or question ought to be made . whatever protestants object against the council of trent , did not the arians against the nicene council ? nolo verba quae non sunt scripta , that is , i will believe nothing but the written word , which is but the eccho repeating now , what was at first cryed out then . thirdly , god has obliged no man to hear church or council against his express and clear word . answer , this is true , but is not the church the most faithful depositary of gods word , best judge of what is clear , and best interpreter of what is obscure ? for no scripture , says st. peter , is of private interpretation ; and doth not christ in his written word most clearly and expresly command us to hear his church , if we will not be holden as publicans and heathens . fourthly , no council can be general , where all are not called , and sit with a decisive voice . answer , should even hereticks be called to , and have in councils their decisive voices ? what agreement could this make in points controverted ? why not socinians , anabaptists , quakers , as well as protestants ? should presbyterians sit with bishops & prelaticks in protestant assemblies ? what a pitiful shift is this ? if so , let the covenant be renewed , bishops again thrust out , and mr. menzeis set high , for yielding obedience to them , only through compulsion and fear of loosing his place . fifthly , the church her self when fallen in errour , cannot be judge , being criminal and impeached of most hainous crimes , she cannot be both party and judge . answer , this objection is all utopian and chymerical , if we hear the scripture and fathers assuring us she cannot err : but giving , and not granting she did ; who then her judge ? when subjects rise against their soveraign , citizens against their magistrates ▪ children against their parents , leave they to be their judges , because arraigned by them ? even hereticks , must submit to the sentence and censures of the church , when they fall at variance with her ; though they turn unnatural , she cannot become a stepmother to them . sixthly , infallibility in judging is proper to god. answer , yes , none but god has it essentially , and by nature , but none i hope will deny , he may make the pastors of his church , as well infallible in teaching points of faith , as his prophets and evangelists , in penning the scripture books , or at least as any protestant in reading and understanding them . seventhly , the church of rome is but a particular church . answer , we take it not so , when we say the catholick roman church , but for all churches in communion with the roman , as all countries under the roman emperour , are called the roman empire , and all people under the law of moses , the jewish church , though that name taken strictly , belonged to the tribe of juda , because the chief city appertained to that tribe , where the high bishop resided . so the universal church is called the roman catholick church , by reason of st. peter and his successors , her high bishops residing there , whence rome is the centre of ecclesiastical communion , infusing unity in the whole dispersed body , as the form of universality or catholickship . wherefore st. cyprian ep. ad cornel. calls her , ecclesiam principalem unde unitas sacerdotalis exorta est : that is , the principal and chief church , the source and centre of unity amongst the priests of all other churches , and consequently the people . eighthly , but whereon grounded this infallible authority of the church ? answer , on the clear places of scripture and fathers above cited ; it is the ground and pillar of truth , therefore cannot err . it hath the promise of gods spirit to lead it into all truth , therefore cannot err . it is said to be built on the rock , against which the gates of hell shall not prevail , therefore cannot err . christ hath placed in it apostles , doctors , pastors , and bishops to the consummation and perfection of the whole body , that we be not carried away with every blast of new doctrines , therefore it cannot err . it is the house , the spouse , the mystick body of christ , his lot , kingdom , and inheritance in this world , therefore cannot err . on the authority of the church the fathers have received the originals , translations , and sense of scripture books , yea some chief points of faith , not mentioned in scripture , as persons in the trinity , sacraments in the church , keeping holy the sunday , &c. therefore cannot err . christ has commanded , and that under pain of damnation , to hear the church in matters of faith and religion , therefore it cannot err . all are obliged to live in communion with the church , therefore cannot erre . the church hath from christ , and ever has exercised a judicatory power in all belonging to faith and worship , therefore cannot err . christ hath sealed constantly in all ages her doctrine with wonders , and miracles , therefore it cannot err : to conclude , if the church and her pastors assembled in councils mistake clear scripture , misapply scriptures , deceive , or be deceived , what particular man can either justly censure her , and them , or solidly ground himself ? magna vis veritatis , great is the strength of verity , and nothing more true then what is here holden out , that to admit with mr. menzeis , of no infallible visible judge of controversie , is the only fountain and spring of all divisions , schisms , and heresies , to which this one protestant principle , opens so wide a gate . sect . iv. wherein mr. menzeis first ground of the protestant religion , to wit sole scripture , is shewn to be no ground to them ; and that they have not reformed the church according to the uncorrupted scriptures , but corrupted the sciptures to deform the church . scripture then is protestants ground of religion , and in it all fundamentals are clear , this is very plausible , to the ignorant people , who think it to be so upon their ministers tradition , and highly glory both in reading and explaining the bible . yet no peculiar ground to them , as was required , all hereticks for ought m. menzeis hath said , pretending with as great reason , the same . neither have heresies , says st. augustine , l. 1. c. 4. contr . ad vers . leg . & proph . or certain doctrines bewitching the mind sprung from any other head , then from good scriptures not well understood . but to proceed with order , before we come to the understanding of scripture . first , what scripture , i pray you is this the protestant ground ? is it the scripture translated , or in the original tongues ? mr. menzeis speaks nothing of this . the learned chamiers cited as a chief protestant champion by him in his panstratia l. 1. c. 2. s . 15. says only true originals , adding , as for translations , the sense of protestants is , that all of them , of what standing , name , or credit soever they be , and with what diligence , sincerity or learning soever they were made , are only so far certain , as they agree with the first context , i mean says he , as they express that , sense which is certainly manifest , to be the true sence of the hebrew and greek words . and doctor daniel in his treatise , the dippers dipped , has these words , p. 1. no translation is simply authentical or the undoubted word of god. to these subscribe● doctor baron our countrey man , inferiour to no protestant , i know , either in loyalty or learning , tract . 1. c. 2. p. 46. laici illiterati , &c. unlearned laicks , says he , believe only implicitly , confusedly , and 〈◊〉 upon the divine authority of scripture forme●ly taken ; by reason they can have no certain express and distinct knowledge of the doctrine contained in scripture as such , or of the agreement of translations in vulgar languages , with the originals , yea , they know not so much , but upon other mens testimony and report , as that the doctrine propounded to them to be believed , is set down in the scripture or written word at all . whence followeth according to these learned protestants , the ground of the protestant religion must be only the scripture in the original languages , that is greek , hebrew and syriack , which of a thousand protestants , 2. does not understand : where then must all other protestants ground their faith ( a very few number of linguists being excepted ) shal they believe only implicitely , and on other mens report , as d. baron will have them ? but this is the colliers faith mr. menzeis jears , though i fear all his skill in languages , often force him to turn a collier himself : or shall they rely on translations which chamiers after all diligence used , and doctor daniel with him , confess not to be the undoubted word of god , but in so far as they are known to agree with the hebrew and greek texts , and how few undoubtedly know this ? yea protestant translations of the bible are so generally corrupt , that you shall find none that has not been challenged , even by most learned protestants , for manifold corruptions , and that very gross . to begin at luther , let us hear zuinglius of him , tom. 2. ad luther c. de sacram. fol. 412. where after detection of many corruptions in luther , he concludes thus , see how thy case standeth , that in the eyes of all men thou art seen to be a manifest and common corrupter of holy scripture , which thing thou canst never deny before any creature , how much are we ashamed of thee , who hereto have esteemed thee beyond all measure , and now find thee to be such a false fellow . neither can luther deny his corruptions himself , for in that place of st. paul , where a man is said to be justified by faith , he grants l. contra cochleum p. 408. he puts into the text , the word , only , which the apostle has not , licet paulus verbo , sola non utatur qou ego usus sum ; and is not this a main place protestants use against us , so well are they grounded in scripture . of calvin , charles molinaeus in his translation of the new testament , part . 2. fo . 110. says calvin in his harmony , maketh the text of the scripture to leap up and down , as the truth it self declareth , he useth violence to the letter of the gospel , and in many places clearly transposes it , and besides this addeth to the text. are these the reformers of the church by the uncorrupted word , or corrupters of the word to deform the church ? castalio saith of beza , that to note all his errors in translating the new testament , it would require a great volume . five times he differs from himself , though one of the best linguists ever protestants had . king james a great scholar , as a great monarch in the sum of the conference before his majesty , thinks the geneva translation the worst of all others . and mr. parkes in his defence of the first testimony concerning christs descending into hell , says , as for the geneva bibles , it is to be wished that either they be purged from those manifold errours , which are both in the text , and at the margent , or else utterly prohibited . now as to our own translations in english , mr. bruges in his apology , sect. 6. says plainly , that the approved protestant translation , hath many omissions , many additions , which sometimes obscure , sometime pervert the sense . and m. carleil p. 116. remarkes that the english protestants in many places detort the scriptures from their right sense , and shew themselves to love darkness more then light , falshood more then truth , they have corrupted and depraved the sense , obscured the truth , deceived the ignorant , and supplanted the simple . and mr. broughton a chief linguist in england , in his epistle to the lords of the privy council , desireth them to procure speedily a new translation , because that which is now is full of errours . and in his advertisement of corruptions to the protestant bishops , saith , that their publick translation of scriptures is such , as it perverteth the text of the old testament in four hundred forty eight places , and that it causeth millions of millions to reject the new testament , and run to eternal flames . how many divers and different translations in queen elizabeths and king james times ? how often what was first at the margent , hath been put in the text ? now if translators of the scripture in english , men furnished with so many helps , endued with so many gifts , so well versed in the hebrew , and greek tongues , so guided by all the rules mr. menzeis gives to attain the right meaning and sense of holy writ , have fallen into so many , and so gross errours and mistakes , as to have depraved , detorted , wrested , obscured the scripture and word of god , so that it , as translated by them decieveth the ignorant , supplanteth the simple , perverteth the text in so many places , as that it carrieth milions to eternal flames ; what hope can any one have of meaner talents with fewer helps , and less learning and knowledge , to attain by his own private reading of scripture , the undoubted truth , steadiness in faith and religion , a full and satisfactory solution of all doubts , or security of salvation ? and yet these very same so corrupt translations ( as their own ghospellers testifie ) are read in churches , expounded in pulpits , and put in the hand of every one who understands neither latine , greek nor hebrew , as his sole ground of faith ; and judg of controversie , whereby he is made able to judge , not only of popish errors , the writings of the fathers , and decrees of councils , but even of his own pastors doctrine , his churches faith , and his countries religion . secondly , to come to the originals ; shall they then onely be the protestants ground of faith ? if so , i ask mr. menzeis where we shall find them ? yea we are so far from having all the originals , that it is doubted in what language some parts of scripture were written . the purity of originals is sometimes called in question , and calvin inst . l. 1. c. 13. doth imagine even these the fountains run not always clear . luther enar. in is . cryes out on the jews for crucifying the text , as well as christ , and upon gen. c. 24. says again , he has often told many words there be in the hebrew text , which the hebrews themselves do not understand . and to say true , amongst the jews , the least of their three massoreshe's ( so they call the book which contains the many corruptions , and divers lections in the hebrew text ) counts eight hundred places disagreeing , ambiguous or corrupt , neither do the most learned rabbies agree in the letter of scripture : in hebrew it self , some reading according to the points , or vowels put in by rabbi jacob , and some by these of rabbi aron , most different one from another ; all the points being added to the text , five hundred years after christ , and that by his professed enemies the jews , long after the vulgar latine translation which was made before the text , and letter of scripture was corrupt . but protestants take in also with these the corruptions of the greek text remarked in part by st. ireneus , tertullian , origen , and others , says eusebius , when the ancient hereticks the arians , macedonians , nestorians , &c. had corrupted and adulterated the word of god , to support their errours , as protestants at present in all their translations do . i know m. menzeis will tell me perhaps he hath seen both the hebrew and the greek texts ; well but who assures him they are not corrupt ? yes , but the protestants have corrected them , and that according to the authenticks , which never any protestant did see . the most learned amongst protestants have never seen the original scriptures which were first penned by the prophets , apostles , and evangelists ; copies are no less subject to faults in the letter , then translations to mistakes in the sense . yea , the authors of that great & famous bible that is printing at london ( if not yet ended ) in so many languages , witnesseth in the preface they have set out , not so much as one copy could be found they can assure to agree in all things with the original : their labour may be great in this vast volume to correct the copies they find deficient , but their authority is not infallible : in a word , no infallible authority is admitted by protestants to judge either of the letter or sense , for that savours rankly , says m. menzeis of that erroneous popish tenet , of an infallible visible judge of controversie . and i answer , to deny one in all these and such like cases savours rankly of a tottering , wavering , groundless faith , most like to that of m. menzeis . i say yet further , if no translations of scripture can be a ground of faith , as most learned protestants grant , so neither any original it would seem , without some infallible judg ; for i must ever be sure they are unccorrupted ; and again all the defect in translations coming from the misunderstanding of originals ; i ask who dare say he understands them , better then they who have translated , and upon this , as he himself reads , and conceives , ground his religion and faith. thirdly , before all this , if m. menzeis will prove it a solid ground to rely on sole scripture , as the onely ground of faith , without any infallible visible judge , or assurance , that he who tells me this is the uncorrupted letter , this the true and genuine sense , has the peculiar assistance of the holy ghost : i demand what infallible motive can prudently perswade protestants that the word of god they rely on , was ever set down in writing , or is extant at this day ? is it the testimony of scripture calling it self gods word , or the innate light of the same scripture , showing it self to be such , to a well disposed intellect and mind ? if the first , do not nicodemus and s. thomas gospels carry the same titles , with these of st. matthew and st. mark ? if the second , then the fathers of the first three ages ( whom m. menzeis most owns ) were not well disposed persons , who did not acknowledge some books of scripture till the authority of a council at carthage had declared them canonical ; and much less luther , that holy man , who rejecteth st. james epistle with some others . as protestants ground their faith , say they , on gods word , so quakers on the spirit : and we deny not but both be equally infallible , if once known infallibly to be the spirit or word of god. but we demand of each sect , what infallible external rule or motive they give us , to know either gods word speaking in scripture , or spirit in them ? both answer with m. menzeis , they both show themselves to all who are well disposed . but this clears not us , the well disposed heart being only known to god ; let all then be objectively true , ( as m. menzeis sayes his religion is ) which they both teach , ( as certainly is , what ever by gods word or spirit is revealed ) we only insist to know infallibly that god did reveal such doctrine as theirs , either by his word or spirit . for we receive now no immediate revelations , as the prophets and apostles did in old times , nor have we evidentiam in attestante , as the divines call it , that is any evidence that it is god who speaks ; points of faith being only propounded to us by men , who either put the scriptures in our hands to read , or teach us by word of mouth . the protestants great principle , let 's own no man or church as an infallible judge ; yea m. menzeis in his sixth paper , offers upon this to turn papist , if the infallible assistance of the propounder can be proved necessary : but never clears what other way we can be infallibly assured that all which the protestants do teach , was revealed by god. unless it be in his third paper , where speaking of the true and genuine sense of scripture , he tells us we may have it as from a jurist , the explication of a municipal law , or from a mathematitian , a demonstration of euclides . but what a weak answer is this ? do any receive demonstrations on authority as points of faith ? or is the assent i give to the law so explained by a jurist infallible ? if christ himself had not shown his divinity by his works and wonders , he grants the jews had committed no sin in refusing to belive him : the apostles credentials were their miracles , both did thus evidence the infallible assistance they had of gods spirit to the world ; and shall any man trust m. menzeis boldly asserting there is no necessity of any ? was it not for this the power of miracles was left in the church , as the marks of her assistance , and seals of her doctrine , with other motives of credibility ? notwithstanding protestants with m. menzeis will propound to us the catalogue of canonical scripture books , assure us of the uncorrupt copies and letter , enforce upon our consciences the sense they give , whil'st so confidently obtruding all this , they neither dare , or do say , nor can evidence by any external mark or sign , they have the particular assistance of gods spirit ; as if all this were clear in it self , with mathematical demonstrations . but doth scripture in our bibles , show it self better to be the word of god now , then when christ was speaking in person ? then an external evidence , god did speak by his son , is acknowledged as necessary by him , and now shall any man reasonably say , there is no necessity of any , when he speaks by his servants and church ? however this prove efficacious and strong for m. menzeis conversion , it would seem to me more then sufficient for his ▪ or any mans conviction . fourthly , to claim to scripture , yet so as they can no wise evidence they take it aright , is common to protestants with all hereticks , so no peculiar ground . when sectaries clash with sectaries , is not all their babling out of scripture ? you shall see , says vincentius lyrinensis , c. 35. hereticks so abound with scripture , as they fly through all the volumes of the holy law , through moses , the books of kings , the psalmes and prophets , &c. read the works of paulus sam satenus , priscillian , eunomius , &c. you shall not find ae page which is not coloured and painted out with the sentences of old and new testament . nestorius to support his heresie gloried ( as gennadius reporteth in his catalogue ) in the evidence of threescore testimonies which he produced , as the covenant in three hundred , whereof scarce three any wise to the purpose . the valentinians , marcionists , arians , will submit to none but scripture , as st. augustine witnesseth of maximinus the arian bishop in his first bok against him . neither doth it avail m. menzeis to say scriptures are clear in terminis , or made clear by conferring of places , or show themselves clearly to a well disposed mind . first , for that though a place of scripture be clear in it self , yet when divers sects take it diversly , a man may justly suspect his own judgment , seeing so many of a contrary mind . so that it wanteth not difficulty to determine always what is absolutely clear , there being many clear places as would seem , not to be taken in the clear and obvious sense , as the passages hereticks did most build on , will presently shew . as when marcion despiseth moses and the prophets upon christs own clear words in s. john the 10. how many soever have come before me are thieves and robbers . the manichees affirmed christ to be the sun , upon a like scripture in st. john the 8. i am the light of the world . the waldenses taught no man could be put to death , no not by the lawful authority of a judge , upon clear scripture again , exod. 20. thou shalt not kill , &c. the devil citeth clear scripture to christ , and the jews against his death , we have heard in the law the messias abideth for ever . moreover many seeming contradictions in scripture , you shall find in becan and others , one might think clear . and many things are believed even by protestants , which be not in scripture at all : as persons in the trinity , sacraments in the church , and the command of keeping holy the sunday ; the scripture neither naming persons , or telling what a person is , defining sacraments ( as m. menzeis doth ) or setting down their number ; abrogating the keeping of the sabbath , or having for the sunday any command . many places of scripture again are flatly against protestants , and clear for us , as for the real presence , this is my body , this is my blood , s. matth. 26. for justification not by faith only , but also good works . ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by faith only , s. james 2.24 . for traditions from the apostles , besides the written word . therefore brethren stand fast and hold the traditions which ye have been taught , whether by word , or our epistle , 2 thes . 2.13 . and such like places cited in most books of controversie , for all controverted tenets , protestants never being able to bring any one clear place of scripture against any of our tenets , not evidently mistaken or confessedly corrupted , as when they make s. paul say , a man is justified by faith only ; luther above cited , granting he has put in the word only , which saint paul hath not ; or , thou shalt not make to thy self any graven image , in place of idol , as is clearly the word pesel in the hebrew text. secondly , as to conferring of places , and explaining the more obscure , by these which are clear , did not arius boast of this against the fathers of the council of nice , proving the unity in nature of the father and son , out of these words in s. john the 10. i and my father are one . no , says the arian , this place as obscure to us , and passing the reach of humane capacity , must be explained by this other more clear in st. john 17. where christ prayes his apostles , may be one with him , as he and his father are one ; that is in will and affection , and surely the second place is clearer to us , and consequently according to m. menzeis rule , the arian heresie must prevail ; neither will he ever be able standing to his rule , to answer an arian cobler making this objection , as learned writers remark . eutyches conferring these two places , the word was made flesh , in s. john 1. and the water was made wine , in s. john 2. fell in this detestable blasphemy , that the humane nature was changed into the divine , as the water was converted into wine . and without all doubt again , the second is the clearer place to us , the first , that two natures should be united in one person , surpassing as the divines teach , even the natural capacity of angels . manicheus explains the same passage , the word was made flesh , figuratively , and in show , as protestants , this is my body , and that by a clear place of s. paul to the phil. 2. v. 7. where it is said , christ took upon him the form of a servant , and was made in the likeness of men . most clear words as would seem in favour of this heresie , and such that if protestants could bring any , with as great a show against the real presence , all their pulpits should sound with them till their hearers became deaf . but there be none in all the scripture so clear against the real presence i say , as the words quoted have a seeming clearness against the real incarnation of christ , the four evangelists , and s. paul speaking in so express and formal words for the former , that the fathers with st. chrysostome , hom. 6. have recourse to the words for the real presence as clearer , to prove , that giving in the sacrament his body and blood , he must have taken the nature of man. nestorius on the contrary will have these words of s. john the 2. dissolve ye this temple , and in three dayes i shall raise it again , to be taken litterally , and not figuratively ; and upon this holds out a new heresie , that the son of god did dwell only in his holy humanity as in a temple . valentine and apollinaris reading in s. john 3. no man hath ascended into heaven , but he that descended from heaven , gain sayes the mystery of christs incarnation , and wil needs have his flesh to have descended from heaven , as his manhood afterwards ascended thither . and this heretical exposition , they confirm by conferring the ensuing places in st. paul to the ephesians 4. he that descended , the same is also he who ascended . and in the first to the corinths 15. the first man of earth earthly , the second man of heaven heavenly . a thousand such errors in the greatest fundamentals of christianity have hereticks drawn out of the clear fountains and brooks of holy writ , by the deceivable , and deceiving search of weighing places ; why not protestants with them ? they sail on the same sea , and deep of scriptures with them ; they direct their course by the same card of conferring clearer and obscurer places : the same rule they apply to all the crooked lines of their errors and deviations . what can be answered to all this : m. menzeis principle always standing , no infallible visible judg , but to have recourse with him to the well disposed mind , wherefore ▪ thirdly , i say this doth not yet satisfie to the question , no not with all the means of interpretation m. menzeis doth bring , it being as hidden , intricate , doubtful and inscrutable , who performs all these conditions aright , as to find out certainly and infallibly the true sense of scripture , without an infallible judge . yea supposing one uses them aright , yet let us learn from no lesser protestant then doctor jeremy taylor , what certainty of the true sense men can attain by them : his words are so remarkable to my purpose in a discourse of liberty in prophesying , sect. 4. that here i even set them down at length . first then says he , sometime the sense is drawn forth by the context , and connexion of parts . it is well when it can be so . but when there is two or three antecedents and subjects spoken of : what man , or what rule shall ascertain me , that i make my reference true , by drawing the relation to such an antecedent , to which i have a mind to apply it , another hath not . secondly , one other great pretence is , the conference of places , which is of so indefinite capacity , that if there be ambiguity of words , variety of sense , alteration of circumstances , or difference of style amongst divine writers , then there is nothing which may be more abused by wilful people , or may more easily deceive the unwary , or that may more amuse the most diligent observer . thirdly , oftentimes scriptures are pretended to be expounded by a proportion and analogy of reason , but it is with reason as with mens tasts , when a man speaks reason , it is but reason he should be heard , &c , yet because it must be reason that must judg of reason , unless other mens understandings were of the same air , the same constitution and ability , they cannot be prescribed unto by another mans reason ; especially because such reasonings as usually are in explication of particular places of scripture depend upon minute circumstances and particularities , in which it is so easy to be deceived , and so hard to speak reason regularly and always , that it is the greater wonder , if we be not deceived . fourthly , others pretend to expound scripture by analogy of faith. this he says is but a chimera , a thing in the clouds , which varies like the right and left hand of a pillar , &c. fifthly , consulting of originals , is thought a great matter to interpretation of scriptures ; but this is to small purpose , for indeed it will expound the hebrew and the greek , and rectifie translations : but i know no man that says , that the scriptures in hebrew and greek are easy , & certain to be understood , and that they are hard in latine and english . the difficulty is in the thing , however it be expressed , the least in the language , &c. then numb . 6. he saith in general , all these ways of interpreting scriptures , which of themselves are good helps , are made either by design , or by our infirmities , ways of intricating and involving scriptures in greater difficulty , because men do not learn their doctrines from scripture , but come to the understanding of scriptures , with preconceptions and idea's of doctrines of their own , and then no wonder scripture look like pictures ; wherein every man in the room thinks they look on him only , and that wheresoever he stands , or how often soever he changes his station . so that now what was intended for a remedy , becomes the promoter of our disease , and our meat becomes the matter of sickness : and the mischief is , the wit of man cannot find a remedy for it ; for there is no rule ; no limit , no certain principle by which all men may be guided to a certain , and so infallible interpretation , that he can with any equity prescribe to others to believe his interpretations in places of controversie or ambiguity . osiander in his confutations of the book which melancton wrote against him , observes there are twenty several opinions concerning justification , all drawn from the scriptures , by the men only of the augustan confession . there are sixteen several opinions concerning original sin ; and as many definitions of the sacraments as there are sects of men that disagree about them . lastly , he concludes num. 8. since those ordinary means of expounding scripture as searching the originals , conference of places , parity of reason , and analogy of faith , are all dubious , uncertain , and very fallible : he that is the wisest , and by consequence the likelyest to expound truest in all probability of reason , will be very far from confidence ; because every one of these , and many more are like so many degrees of improbability and uncertainty , all depressing our certainty of finding out truth in such mysteries , and amidst so many difficulties . remark well all this discourse from so great a protestant doctor , finding no certainty of the true sense of scripture , by all the means of interpretation , and reflect with all a little in how hard a condition protestants stand , admitting no infallible visible judge in controversy , but boldly undertaking to decide all that which is controverted by sole scripture , explained by such fallible means , and yet more fallible men . it is but a labyrinth of windings and turnings to pass from scripture as clear in words , to conferring of places , and deducing consequences , after prayer used , and diligent search made , with a well disposed mind , then to the inward motion , or the private spirit , against which the prophets and apostles so generally exclaim , ezekiel in his 13. chapter , wo be to the foolish prophets , who follow their own spirit . s. peter in his 2 epistle chap. 1. no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation . neither is the question here , what is inwardly required in every private man to believe scripture ( but what is the external , visible , and infallible rule of faith ) for that is out of all doubt with us . faith is a supernatural and infused virtue , to which the pious motion in the will is no less requisite , then the supernatural light in the understanding to assent to what is revealed by god. but seeing neither this light nor pious motions as they are supernatural , and incline only to believe a revealed truth , do manifest themselves to be such : therefore many thousands even well disposed persons , and who seek god in the sincerity of their hearts , oftentimes perswade themselves ( till they be better instructed ) they believe such a thing as a revealed truth by god , which is a condemned error by him . and this none can deny , who will not maliciously condemn a world of zealous ignorants , yea some even most learned and holy fathers , who with st. cyprian in the point of rebaptization , have believed an error for a revealed truth , before it was clearly decided by the church . however , whether it be this , or something else m. menzeis calls a well disposed mind ; others the spirit , or the private spirit , the spirit of the righteous man , and so forth ; i say , it cannot be either with the holy scripture , or alone , the rule of faith , and judg of controversie . 1. because none without some particular help can be infallibly assured of this interiour motion , affection , or spirit , whether it be natural , or supernatural , from god or the devil , the spirit of darknes or light , now no man , as m. field confesseth , l. 4. c. 7. proveth any thing is , or may be doubted of , by that which is as much to be doubted of as it self . 2. we are counselled in the 2 epistle of st. john ch. 4. not to believe every spirit , but to try the spirits if they be of god : but if the spirits must be brought to the touchstone of trial , if they must be judged and approved by some other well known and undoubted authority , they are not the sole rule and supreme judg of faith and controversy : because this spirit is secret and hidden , our faith publick and evidently credible ; this spirit particular , our faith catholick or universal ; this spirit the gift of every particular man , our faith subject to no private censure . wherefore m. hooker eccl. pol. l. 1. sect. 14. and whitaker against stapleton c. 2. c. 4. ingeniously grant , that the outward letter of scripture , sealed with the inward and private spirit , is not a sufficient warrant for every particular man to receive or reject scripture books , but that the publick authority of gods church , is necessarily required . whence i say further with s. augustine l. contr. ep ▪ fund . c. 5. that authority which we obey and believe , testifying the books of the holy ghospel , the same must we believe , witnessing this to be the sence of the ghospel , that is not the private spirit , but the same authority of the church . thirdly , this private spirit is so far from being the judge of controversy upon any pretence of adhering to scripture , either as clear in it self , or explained by it , that instead of compounding debates and keeping unity ( the chief office of this judg ) it is the very root of dissention , and fountain of heresies and schisms , for as by experience we see it to be different in divers persons , so as the bell to fools , it speaketh as they fancy , it inclines as they are affected , it points out the object according to the colour which is in the eye ; it is like a false light which makes the aspect of best and fairest figures vary ; it is often a blind zeal , or a prejudicate opinion , which hinders to see what is clear in scripture , as s. augustine l. 3. de doctr. c. 10. well remarks , if the prejudice , saith he , of any erroneous opinion preoccupate the mind , whatsoever the scripture hath to the contrary , men take it to be a figurative speech . so that it furnisheth to every sectary reading scripture , his own spectacles , in conferring places , his own rule of proportions : his private weights to ponder reasons ▪ his particular forge to coine opinions , his secret touch-stone to try doctrines , his own reed to measure the temple , sanctuary and altar : makes him his own high priest , pastor , and judg , setting up within himself a supreme judicatory , giving ever sentence in his favour , and censuring all the world beside ; so that none standing to this rule , can be compelled to the unity of the church , and yet none can be accounted hereticks , as the learned suares , l. 1. de defi . fid . c. 11. most judiciously remarketh , if we take scripture as men read , who think themselves well disposed , or expounded by it self according to the dictamen of the private spirit , for ground , for who can swarve from scripture as clear , according to his particular judgment and spirit , which he even esteemeth to be the spirit of god. scripture therefore cannot be judge of controversie , as m. menzeis will have it . 1. by reason the sentence of this judg must breed a certain and infallible assurance of all that can come in doubt , which scripture cannot do . it being infallible indeed in it self , but not to us , who may doubt if such a book be canonical , such a copy conform to the original , such a translation authentick , such a place clear , such a sense genuine . 2. the judge of controversie ought to give a clear sentence , which the learned and unlearned may equally understand , and as the law , sayes the apostle , is not for the just , but the unjust , so the judg of controversie is not only for the well disposed , but more in some manner for others , and especially the unlearned and unstable , who according to st. peter , wrest the scriptures to their own damnation ; yea the most learned amongst the fathers , as s. basil , and s. gregory nazianzen , after much pains in the study of scripture , as testifieth ruffinus l. 11. hist . c. 9. refuse to interpret them , but according to the rule and uniform consent of their fore-fathers , not relying on all the means of interpretation m. menzeis prescribes ; and they had reason , the scripture being the book s. john describeth to be clasped with seven seals , apoc. 5. v. 16. which ezekiel termeth the enrolled volume , written within and without . s. ambrose ep. 44. a sea containing most profound senses of prophetical riddles . s. augustine l. 2. de doctrina . christ . c. 6. hard in the stile , discourse , places , as well as in the subject and matter : which makes him cry out , l. 12. confess . c. 14. o the wonderful depth of thy speeches , o the wonderful depth ; s. hierome ep. 13. c. 4. says the text of scripture has a shell to be broken , before that we can tast the sweetness of the kernel : and vincentius lyrinensis , c. 2. that all take not holy scripture by reason of its deepness in one and the same sense , but some interpret one way , some another , so that there may seem to be picked out as many senses as men ; for novatus doth expound one way , and sabellius another , otherwise donatus , otherwise arius , eunomius , macedonius , otherwise photinus , apollinaris , and other hereticks with them : therefore very necessary it is for the manifold turnings and by-wayes of errors , that the line of prophetical and apostolical interpretation be levelled according to the square of the ecclesiastical and catholick sense , whereof tertullian de praescript . gives this reason , for that the sense adulterated , is alike perillous as the stile corrupted . but what danger of this , says m. menzeis if scripture be clear , men cannot mistake ( if not wilfully blinded ) what is so ▪ could not the law-maker speak as clear as the judg ? answer , we have seen there is nothing almost in scripture , but has been , and so may be mistaken : therefore the necessity of a judge , however the law speak clear , has been acknowledged by the greatest men , and best wits in the world ; aristotle in the first book of his morals , and fourth of his politicks , and plato in his republick , prefers good judges even to best laws : judges have been ever establisht by the laws in all nations , as by scripture , in the church of god ; and the necessity of one to keep concord and unity , is partly grounded on the nature of most clear words and sentences , which may be taken according to the letter or sense , properly or figuratively , morally , or mystically , and so forth : partly on the diversity of opinions , men commonly judging as they are affected , and diversly of one and the same thing as their understandings , inclinations , or interests leads them . his majesties secretary of state may write no doubt , as clear as the lords of council and session speak , yet his letters are directed to them in most businesses of weight , least others should take them otherwise then written , or wrest them to their own ends ; even so is it of scripture written by the prophets , and evangelists , and delivered to the pastors and doctors of the church . whence catholick romans build their belief upon scripture , not taken as they fancy , but explained by apostolical tradition conserved in the church , and the unanimous consent of the fathers , and if any doubt arise of both these , on the general definition and decision of the present catholick church . protestants , as m. menzeis holds out , ground their faith on scripture , which they have corrected , or rather corrupted , as clear in it self , or made clear by diligent reading and conferring of places with prayers , and ( as they imagine ) a well disposed mind , that is a prejudicate opinion that their own tenets are right . now let any man judg , which of these two is most conform to scripture it self in both testaments , to the practice of the church in all ages ; to the consent of fathers above cited , and reason . for first , this the protestant way would seem vain , arrogant and presumptuous , in so far as that a man who followeth it , must be so confident of himself , that if he fancy scripture to be clear for such a tenet , were all the christian world in a contrary judgment , yea had all christians been so from the time of the apostles , yet must he stand to his fancy grounded upon clear scripture , as he thinks ; so that no perswasion can remove him from it , for that it is a point of his faith , but for a man to be so peremptorily resolute in the sense he hath found in scripture by his private reading , is very presumptuous , i say , for wherein can he ground prudently such a strong assent , as is required in divine faith , which ought to be above all can be said against it . shall it be on the clearness of the words ? conference of places ? on his skill in tongues ? on his weighing the precedent and consequent places ? or on the assistance of the spirit given to him ? if so , is it not intollerable pride and presumption in any one man , to think that no other was ever so clear sighted , or quick witted , to see and understand in scripture what is clear ? no other in such a multitude of doctors and fathers , so well versed in the original languages , so circumspect to confer places , so exact to weigh circumstances , so acute to draw consequences , in fine , so well disposed to find the truth , so fervent in prayer , so particularly enlightned , directed , and assisted by the spirit of god ? what is whymsical , phanatick , and foolish , if this be not ? wherefore doctor field ashamed any should think this to be protestant doctrine , says , none of their divines teach the scriptures to be so clear , that they may be certainly understood by reading and conferring of places . for the rule of faith says he , in his appendix 2. p. p. 12. is doctrine descending by tradition from the apostles , according to which the scriptures are to be expounded . and in his fourth book c. 14. the rule of faith is the consenting judgment of them that went before us , the rule without which we cannot know the meaning of the things that are in scriptures , for who shall be able to understand them , but he that is setled in these things which the apostles presupposed in their delivery of scripture . afterward in the 15. chap. having said , there is no question but there be many obscurities in scripture . and in the 18. ch. having set down many senses of scriptures , in the 19. he writes thus , we confess that neither conference of places , nor consideration of what followeth , or goes before , nor looking into originals , are of any force , unless we find the things which we conceive to be understood and meant in the places interpreted to be consonant to the rule of faith , ( that is , tradition conserved in the church ) neither is there any of our divines that ever taught otherwise . where you see by doctor field , m. menzeis is discarded from being a protestant divine ; the scripture however clear , is declared to be no rule or ground of faith , but according to the sense of them that went before us ; as all other means besides tradition in his 16. ch. are propounded to be but probable conjectures , and not infallible grounds . and this most rationally , for what private man , as i have said , can assure himself , that either the finding out the true sense of scripture , as to him , is tyed to the means of interpretation m. menzeis sets down , or that he makes a right use of all these means ? for as the same dr. field judiciously remarks , and ingenuously grants with s. augustine , contra . ep. fundam . and de util. cred . few men have leasure , fewer strength of understanding to examine the particular controversies , so many , and so intricate in these our dayes : and that the way to satisfie their consciences in this most important affair , is to find out the true church , and rest in her judgment . ad sapientiam , says s. augustine , in ecclesia spirituales pauci perveniunt ; caeteram vero turbam non intelligendi vivacitas , sed credendi simplicitas tutissimam facit ; that is , few , even spiritual ones in the church attain to perfect knowledge , the rest being made most sure , not by their quickness in understanding , but by their simplicity in believing . 2. this the protestants way is but a trifling loosing of time , never having been found able to settle debates amongst themselves , as witness 60. synods holden in 60. years time , says rescius l. de atheismo , in which all taking scripture for their ground , without any infallible judge , did so little agree , that they parted not so much as good friends . neque dantes dextras fraternitatis aut humanitatis . how many examples of this amongst lutherans , and calvinists , prelaticks , and presbyterians , and even in our confessions of faith , and covenant among our selves ? i know m. menzeis answer will be , their dissentions are not in fundamentals , ( of these i shall speak presently in the next section ) only here i ask , why then so great cruelty , so much bloud , so many excommunications and curses ? if they did not think them so , who moved such troubles , they were either most cruel , or mad , as tertullian , l. de praescr . most truly says , in disputing out of texts of scripture ( that is as every man reads and understands ) there is no other good got but either to make a man sick or mad . it is not so in the catholick church , what ever m. menzeis says of jesuits and dominicans , neither party having ever contested in any thing , that was once decided by the church . 3. the protestants way is preposterous , religion being established before the scriptures , and they only written to true believers , whence tertullian prescribing against all hereticks , says , we do not admit them to dispute from scripture , till first they can show who their ancestors were ; from whom , by whom , when and to whom , the form of christian religion was delivered . whereupon to conclude all this , i ask at m. menzeis , is every particular man amongst protestants infallibly assured by scripture of what he believes ? if so , why not then catholicks , and all the catholick church ? they receive the scriptures with protestants , yea protestants only from them : their churchmen read the scriptures with as great diligence , they be in a far greater number , they have ten for one who have expouded it ; they apply no less all the means for a right interpretation , they study the originals , confer places , pray many hours both day and night , have no wives , children , or family to divert them , most of them have renounced all pretence to riches , honours , and all temporal interests , wherewith they might be byassed any wise in what they profess : the extraordinary and unparallelled pains they take in the most barren , savage , and cruel nations of the earth , for their conversion to christianity would seem sufficient to evidence both the good disposition of their minds , and the sincere intention of their hearts , beyond the preachers , of whatsoever sect : their manifold writings witness enough the solidity and quickness of their wits ; and even their wonders and mracles in latter ages , in all most authentick records of history , would make believe they want not the assistance of the the spirit , yea , and of the power of god ; and yet that we should think that they are blinded , protestants see clear ; they mistake scripture , protestants take it aright ; they are misled by the spirit of errour , protestants directed by the spirit of truth ; what reason , proof , or probability for this ? but why do protestants pretend it is so ? forsooth chiefly , because they acknowledge one high bishop in the whole church , as protestants a primate in each kingdom , with the negative voice to silence all private sowers of dissention , and keep unity ; because they take the canons and rules of their faith from scripture explained in general councils , and the unanimous consent of the church and fathers , and not by private reading ; because in a word they reverence publick authority establisht by god in his church , above particular opinions and conceits . why then should scripture be called a ground to protestants , who neither did receive it from christ and his apostles ( as all historians , and chronologues marking the rise of protestancy in luther his dayes do evidence ) nor have it uncorrupt , as their own doctors , and ghospellers do acknowledge : nor take it in the true sense upon publick authority , but as they fancy upon private reading , and interpretation against the apostle ? and not rather to catholicks , who having received the scriptures from christ and his apostles , as the word of god , left to his church , which she is bound to have an eye to in all her decisions , statutes , and laws ; so that none of them be repugnant to it in the least , neither by adding or pairing in words or sense , but all fully consonant and conform to both : in acknowledgement whereof , in all her general councils , she placeth it above pope , prelates , pastors , who in all the search they make into former councels , fathers , schoolmen , tradition or practice of the church , intend nothing else ( generally speaking ) then to find out by all possible diligence , the true sense and meaning of what is taught us in general and particular terms in the written word . yet protestants with all hereticks most vainly bragg of scripture as their ground , and catholicks be calumniated to abandon it ; as if loyal subjects did less rely on the acts of parliament , and fun●●mental laws , who receive them , their sentence , and meaning from the lawful judges establisht in the kingdom ; then out-laws and rebels pretending to adhere immediately to them , as they themselves read , think them clear , or expound . sect . v. scripture however clear in fundamentals , clearly mistaken by protestants , and clearly making against them . let us come at last to the fundamental points of the protestant religion , which mr. menzeis holds out to be clear in scripture . whereupon his adversary demands , what things he esteems fundamental ? he answers , to ask a catalogue of fundamentals , is to ask how to make a coat to the moon in all her changes . and this his quick reply he borrows , from a learned divine , as he calls him , ( mr. chillingworth is the man , as i conceive , for he has the same words , a meer sceptick in religion , and who takes away all certainty in faith ) and to say true , the protestant religion is so obnoxious to reformations , alterations , innovations , that it is most fitly compared by him to the moon in all her changes . yea protestants are of so different opinions , even in what they call fundamentals , that scarce two set down the same , perkins in cath. reform . p. 407. and in his exposition of the creed , p. 503. will have all fundamentals included in the apostles creed . duplessis in his treatise of the church , c. 5. in the decalogue . du moulin , after melancton in c. 4. matt. the creed and decalogue . luther tom. 7. in enchir. f. 118. in the creed , decalogue , and lords prayer . whitaker contr. 1. q. 4. p. 340. in the creed , lords prayer , and sacraments . sadeel praef. resp . ad turr. to believe christ crucified , and the pope to be antichrist . chillingworth in his treatise intituled , the religion of protestants a safe way to salvation , p. 408. n. 35. says plainly , protestants do not agree , touching what points are fundamental , and page 166 , we know not precisely , just how much is funtamental : again page 23. he that will go about to distinguish what was written , because it was profitable , from what was written , because necessary , shall find an intricate business of it , and almost impossible , that he should be certain , he hath done it , when he hath done it . wherefore he says in the same page , n. 27. that protestants give not a catalogue of fundamentals , it is not from tergiversation , but from wisdom and necessity , and when they had done it , it had been to no purpose , there being , as matters now stand , as great necessity of believing those truths of scripture , which are not fundamental , as those that are . and yet other protestants with m. menzeis , harp upon nothing more then the distinction of fundamentals from not fundamentals , as if those were necessarily believed , these not . i know in other places of the same treatise , this author contradicts himself , which shews not only protestants disagree in fundamentals , one from another , but even the same man from himself ; so well grounded they are in these their fundamentals and grounds , wherein , notwithstanding their monstrous divisions , they vainly bragg to agree . but how can it be discerned , whether all protestants , or a few agree in fundamentals , unless it be precisely known , what and how many fundamentals there be ? potter , in fine , extends the number of fundamentals beyond all his brethren have said ; his words are , page 24. it is fundamental to a christians faith , and necessary for his salvation , that he believe all revealed truths of god , whereof he may be convinced they are of god. and doth not this diversity of opinions equal the changes of the moon ? or is not all this a most clear and manifest demonstration , however scripture be clear in fundamentals ( which now i do not dispute ) at least it is not so even to the learnedst and most sharp sighted protestants , who so little agree in that point , that scarce two are of the same judgment and mind . if others did thus mistake what is perspicuous in scripture , mr. menzeis would presently tell us , no wonder they do so , by reason of their evil disposed intellect . but that protestants , and these not of the vulgar sort , but even the pillars of their religion , and defenders of their faith , by volumes in print , should not see what in scripture is most clear , but so vary and divide in such a multiplicity of opinions , and yet maintain scripture in these same things , wehrein they so vary , is clear , what a wonderful thing is this ? or who i pray you , can trust men , both at once saying scripture is clear in fundamentals , and yet setting down the same fundamentals diversly ? by this plainly confessing either their own blindness , and so that they are not good guides , nor to be believed , when they speak of what in scripture is clear , or else that their doctrine in this is false . what m. menzeis holds fundamental , so great a secret it is , that neither will he tell us himself , nor can any other know it , he having so often changed house , and built upon diverse grounds . yet that he should not seem to say nothing , a mark he gives us , to know what in scripture is fundamental , to wit , if we find it commanded to be believed by all , or a character of necessity to be put upon it . whereupon i reflect first m. menzeis doctrine is here very incoherent , for both he teaches , it is commanded in scripture all men believe fundamentals , as things absolutely necessary to salvation ; and nevertheless the catalogue of these same things , he will have impossible , as a coat to the moon . would not this argue he is ignorant himself , of what all should know and believe ? otherwise surely , he should never have judged this catalogue impossible , it being easie to a man to call to memory what he knows , yea we know no more then we can call to memory , says the roman orator , tantum scimus , quantum memoriâ tenemus . secondly , i reflect , that rejecting the infallible authority of the church , teaching every particular person what is fundamental , and what we must necessarily know , and explicitely believe to attain salvation ; & pretending all this is clear , and may be found , by the marks he has given in scripture ; he remaines obliged to a very hard task . 1. to prove in general , from evident and clear scripture , that all things necessary to be believed are clear and evident in scripture . let him answer then , first where he reads this , and to the fathers teaching the contrary as we shall see below . 2. to prove every fundamental point in particular immediately , and clearly from scripture : and this so , that the words cannot be taken obviously and literally in any other sense . for if they can be so taken , then i have no infallible evidence but they should be so taken , without some infallible guide , telling me they should not be so taken in the place alledged . as for example , these words , this is my body , undoubtedly may at least signifie , and that most obviously and litterally , that christs body is really in the sacrament , as when i say , this is a piece of gold , this a piece of silver , these words litterally signifie real gold and silver : wherefore , if i will take the words figuratively , as clearly so spoken in scripture , some other place of scripture must be brought , or some other infallible authority , telling me this in express words , otherwise i cannot have that certainty of it , which is required in divine faith. 3. amongst all the clear places in scripture , to pick out the fundamental ones , how hard is it for every one ? not to say morally impossible , m. menzeis himself granting he cannot do it , more then make a coat to the moon . for by this means all should be obliged to know all texts of scripture , and then to examine diligently each one , first , whether it be evident or obscure , least it should appear upon examination to be evident , which at the first sight did not seem so . and secondly , whether it be generally commanded , and have a character of necessity to be believed by all , for then according to m. menzeis rule , i know it to be a fundamental , but chillingworth , his learned divine , tells him a little above , to distinguish what was written because it was profitable , from what was written , because necessary , is an intricate piece of business . s. paul to the heb. 2. c. 6. v. requires no more as necessary ( as would seem ) then that he who cometh to god , believe , he is , and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek him . s. john 3. ch. 6. says , he that believeth in the son , hath everlasting life ; the prophet royal , that all who fear the lord are blessed ; and many other such passages there be in scripture , which might make a ●●n think one thing or two at most were necessary to salvation , as sometimes the believing of one point , sometimes the doing of one good action ; heaven is promised to prayer in one place , full remission of sins to alms deeds in another , &c. and yet who will say either of these two is sufficient for working a mans salvation ? add to all this , i find in scripture , if thou wilt enter into life , keep the commandments , s. matth. 19. yet protestants teach that to be impossible , and consequenly this fundamental must lead all to despair , as that other make all to presume ; it being a fundamental again amongst protestants , that every man should believe he is one of the elect , which being an article of his faith , may reasonably secure him , and yet all not being of this number , some from this fundamental must or should at least presumptuously believe a lye . further the eating of blood and strangled meat , is generally forbidden by the apostles , to all the gentiles converted to the christian faith , as it was before to the jews , whence i infer ; what is generally commanded to all , should generally be believed by all ; and so if m. menzeis rule be good , this must come in amongst the fundamentals of the protestant religion ; which if it be so in the pulpit i know not , but at table i am sure it is not . a hundred such absurdities follow , upon seeking fundamentals in scripture , by these deceiving signes and uncertain marks m. menzeis gives us , without any infallible guide . 2. it is to be remarked , that protestants neither agree in setting down fundamentals , nor cannot give a precise catalogue of points of faith , they think to be fundamental , as was required of m. menzies ; but that also they mistake the very notion and name : a fundamental verity in the christian religion , being either that which makes us believe all the rest , or without the express knowledge and belief whereof , none can be saved . now the question amongst us , is not about this ; but whether a man may either suspend his assent , or positively dissent , from lesser things then these , when they are revealed by god , and propounded to him by the same authority with the former . for then say catholicks he is equally obliged to believe them , by reason of the form●● object , which is divine revelation , & can in nothing deceive , or should in any thing be called in question , though in respect of the material object or thing revealed , we be not so obliged to know it . for there is nothing less or more certain when god speaks , he being the first verity , yea verity it self , who delivers all he says with one and the same infinite certainty , where no degrees , of more or less certitude can have place . protestants it would seem , as they take fundamentals , will not be tyed to this , whence they receive in communion with them , and as the true members of their church , some who hold most contrary tenets , as m. menzeis , the waldenses , wickliffians , hussists , who in his seventh paper grants the whole body of the church collectively taken , cannot err in essentials or fundamentals , yet so as that in some whole ages the integrals may be vitiated . but if he understand by integrals lesser points of faith , as to their object and matter , yet equally revealed by god , and propounded by his church to us , with chief mysteries , ( wherein the protestants mistake , and errour in their distinction of fundamentals and integrals consists ) his assertion is both erroneous & heretical , because an act of faith grounded on the motive of gods infinite and infallible veracity in revealing , is a vertual and implicite belief of all he has revealed , so that the true belief of one article , implyes a belief of all . wherefore s. athanasius says in his creed , whosoever doth not hold the catholick faith whole and inviolate , he shall perish for ever . and s. hierome l. 3. contr . ruff. for one word or two contrary to the faith , many hereticks have been cast out of the church . yea , s. gregory naz. tract . de fide , says , nothing can be more dangerous then those hereticks , who when they run through all things uprightly , yet with one word , as with a drop of poyson corrupts the true and sincere faith of our lord , and of apostolical tradition . s. basil as theodoret reports l. 4. hist . c. 6. being desired to relent a little to the time , answered , that such as were instructed in the divine doctrine , do not suffer any syllable to be corrupt , but for its defence if need require , willingly imbrace any kind of death . and the church in her publick decrees of general councils strikes with the thunder bolt of gods curse and excommunication all such as refuse to believe any one point decided to be of faith ; which she could not justly do , if every article she declares were not necessarily believed , when known to be decided by her . so doth the church of england excommunicate all who hold any thing contrary to the 39. articles , though they judg them not all fundamental . as the athenians punished without remission the least word against the received opinion of their gods , and the jews ( says joseph contra appion . ) the least transgression of the law. so god threatneth that he shall be blotted out of the book of life , who ever shall deminish any word of the revelation , apoc. 22. v. 19. yet luther rejecting whole epistles of scripture , in m. menzeis book is called a holy man ; but so speaketh not luther of him denying the real presence , who in his book against the sacramentarians , says plainly , they believe in god the father , son , and holy ghost in vain , all these things avail them nothing , for as much as they deny , this article of the real presence , and attach him of falshood , who said of the sacrament , this is my body . and he had reason , for st. thomas 2.2 . q. 5. a 3. with other divines teach he has no spiritual faith , who believeth not every thing little or great , fundamental or not , proposed to him by the same authority . whereupon they infer , that no sectary upon his own choice adhering to this or that , believeth any thing . so tertullian , l. de praesc . speaking against valentine , says , some things of the law and prophets he approveth , some things not , that is , difalloweth all , whil'st he disproveth some . 3. from all this appeareth , how idlely this distinction of fundamntals , & not fundamentals in the protestans sense was brought in by them , it serving to no other purpose , then to palliate their divisions at present , & deceive ignorants in the pretended succession , they claim to in old condemn'd hereticks , whose errors they will have to be no fundamentals . as m. menzeis taking hierome of prague , john huss , wickcliff , the waldenses , and grecians , for true protestants , before luther , to make up an imaginary succession in the protestant church : which to do with any apparent shew of truth . 1. he should prove those sects to have been the catholick church spread through the whole world , and owned as such by the fathers of those times . 2. justifie their doctrine , which we find partly in their own writings , partly in the most authentick records of the ages wherein they lived , to have been in many things most false , erroneous , and unchristian . 3. their succession from the apostles times , finding their bishops and pastors in the registers of the church history or fathers . neither will he make this good by the authority of friar reiner , who speaking of the waldenses , whom he names lionists , says at most ( even as illiricus quotes his words ) some affirm they have been from the time of pope sylvester , others from the dayes of the apostles . ( m. menzeis to make the argument stronger , will have friar reiner to say absolutely they were from the time of the apostles , with his ordinary ingenuity ▪ ) but what i pray you concludes he from this ? those who said so , being lionists themselves , as witnesseth pili●hdorphius . so a little before waldo , there arose hereticks who falsly bragged of the same , even as after them protestants do now . but if you or they either sir , were in all ages from the apostles , tell us the authours in every age who marked the succession of your pastors , where lived your people , &c. & then refute the great number of learned writers , who lived when such sects did start up in a suddain , as a mushrome in a night , marking their rise , and noting their errours , which certainly they had never done , if such doctrine had been professed before , as that of the true and visible church . but to speak a word in particular of every one of those sects ; with what ignorance and falshood m. menzeis calls them true protestants , you shall presently see . and first in john huss , to whose name , i am sure , he has a more just claim then to his religion , if we trust all the most authentick records of huss his doctrine . i cite not for this the juridick acts of the council at constance , because popish ; not father gordon of huntley , no less eminent for his learning then birth , because a jesuit , though living in prague in boheme , where hussits most abound , and having made most diligent enquiry of their tenents , he found as he witnesseth , cont. 3. de euch. c. 17. they did hold invocation of saints , prayer for the dead , the fastings and ceremonies of the catholick church with free will , confession of sins , seven sacraments , &c. but i hope he will trust fox , a most firy protestant speaking thus upon the 2. ch. of the revelation . what did huss at any time teach or defend in the council , wherein he did not seem superstitiously to consent with the papists ? what did the popish faith decree concerning transubstantiation ; which he likewise with the papists did not confirm ? who celebrated mass more religiously then he ? or more religiously observed the vows of priestly chastity ? concerning free will , predestination , informed faith , ( that is without charity ) the cause of justification , and merit of good works , what other thing did he hold , then is taught at rome ? all this he , and more in his monuments , that he did acknowledge seven sacraments ▪ and the popes supremacy , p. 216. and 227. and if he should as yet disown fox as a private writer , yet must he trust luther as a man extraordinarily sent by god to reform the church , and the 14. apostle : the papists burned huss , says he , ( colloq . germ. c. de antich ▪ ) when as yet he departed not a fingers breadth from the papacy , for he taught the same which the papists do , only he found fault with their vices , against the pope he did nothing . to the same purpose luther has much more , tom. 2. in assert . art . 30. and tom. 3. in ps . 2. but in fine , should not huss himself be trusted better then any , his works are extant , and perusing them , you shall find he did hold seven sacraments upon the fifth of s. james ; transubstantiation in his book of the lords supper , ch. 2. and 3. the sacrifice of the mass in his sermon of funerals ; purgatory and prayers for the dead in the same place , confession of sins to a priest in his treatise of pennance , invocation of saints in his epistles 22.30.35 . veneration of relicks upon ps . 115. yea in his question of believing , the popes supremacie as to his office , dignity and power : though with this caveat , common to him with wicliff , that ecclesiastical dignity , as well as civil , was grounded on inherent justice , and so lost by mortal sin , which neither catholicks nor protestants do teach : nevertheless m. menzeis is not ashamed to own huss for a protestant , so constant is he in professing his fundamentals , which he will have to be in scripture so clear . i insist not so much on the rest , yet to say a little of every one . of hierome of prague ; fox . pag. 585. relateth whatever was his opinion in other things , yet stood he constantly in defence of the real presence , and transubstantiation , saying , he did give more credit to s. augustine , and other doctors of the church ( who affirmed the same ) then to any that denyed it . wikcliff again m. menzeis is not ashamed to call a protestant , who in his own writings so expresly holds against them . 1. worship of images in his 9. ch. of the eucharist , images , says he , we adore purely as signs , but god we must adore with all our power : it is therefore granted , that relicks , images , and the sacraments be with prudence to be adored . he did also hold invocation of saints in his sermon of the assumption into heaven of our blessed lady , auricular confession on the 5. ch. of james , seven sacraments in his postscript on the first ep. and 1. ch. to the corinths . wherefore melancton ep. ad micon . thus censures him , i have read wickliff and found in him many errors , he never held nor understood justice of faith , which is the protestants main fundamental . with the same confidence m. menzeis calls the waldenses protestants , who held the real presence , that the apostles were but lay-men , that all magistrates fall from their dignity by mortal sin , that it is not lawful to swear in any case , &c. as witnesseth illyricus in catal. wald. confess . bohem. &c. and with these the grecians upon a private letter sent ( as he pretends ) by a patriarch to the arch-bishop of canterbury ; though all who ever conversed with grecians know , they say daily mass , hold transubstantiation , seven sacraments , prayer to the saints , and for the dead , &c. as all may see in the censure of the oriental or grecian church ; and deny the procession of the holy ghost from the son , and consequently make no distinction betwixt these two persons in the godhead . but it is enough to m. menzeis it seems , that they disown the pope , to be called protestants , and so turks and tartars may come in with them . whence i leave to judg how constant a protestant m. menzeis is , owning such doctors and doctrine , and what credit again he deserves , after so many clear testimonies , and that even of learned protestants , and the very writings of the persons in question , convincing him of most notorious falshood and errour . the most antient and holy fathers , as s. ireneus tertullian , philastrius , s. epiphanius , s. augustine , theodoret , s. john damascen , and others , who have written a catalogue of heresies , did not certainly distinguish fundamentals and integrals amongst divine truths , sufficiently propounded , as protestants do , when they condemned many lesser things as heresies , and consequently damnable errours , then what they think to have no repugnancy with fundamentals and essentials in the doctrine of the true church ; as in the pelagians , novatians , donatists , monothelits , who all embraced the trinity , incarnation , passion of christ , &c. s. epiphanius , heres . 75. and s. augustine , l. de heres . c. 33. condemn the arians for denying the fasts commanded by the church , the first remarking , they were accustomed to eat flesh on fridays , and in the lent , yea chiefly in the holy week wherein christ died . s. hierome in his 2. book against jovinian condemneth him , for saying fastings , and all other exercises of good works , were not meritorious : s. augustine in his book of heresies , c. 54. condemns the eunomians for teaching no sin could hurt a man , if so he had but only faith ▪ s. epiphanius haeres . 64. all who denied free will : s. hierome , vigilantius , in his book against him for affirming the relicks of the saints ought not to be reverenced : the same s. hierome against jovinian with s. augustine in his book of heresies , c. 82. condemn him , for holding wedlock , equal in dignity and merit to virginity . s. augustine again l. contr. julian . c. 2. the pelagians for teaching the children of the faithful parents did not need baptism , but were born holy , and in his 1. book 2. c. and last against maximus , the arians for not receiving traditions . now let m. menzeis choose either to acknowledge all these , and many such like condemned heresies by the fathers to be no fundamentals , and consequently that many other things then these which protestants call fundamentals , are necessary to be believed under the danger of incurring heresie and e●ternal damnation : or owning them as such , let him confess , protestants err even in fundamentals with them , seeing all here condemned is protestant doctrine , borrowed from those more ancient hereticks , and condemned by the fathers even then . 4. as to that he says all fundamentals are clear in scripture , and that according to s. chrysostome , s. augustine , s. irenaeus , s. thomas of aquine , and sixtus senensis , holding what ever is obscure in one place , to be clear in some other . i answer , very easily with a manifold distinction , 1. to such eminent doctors of the church , as he cites , most scriptures are clear i grant , to all indifferently i deny . 2. to such as take the places of scripture commanding us to hear the church ; and hold fast the traditions of the apostles conserved in her , as two main fundamentals , for clearing all the rest , i grant , to others i deny . 3. with vincentius lyrinensis c. 2. to such as level the line of prophetical and apostolical interpretation , to the square of the ecclesiastical and catholick sense i grant , to others i deny . 4. with doctor field a protestant in his 4. book c. 14. to such as be first setled in those things which the apostles presupposed in their delivery of scriptures , i grant , to others i deny . neither are these my distinctions any wise to shift the argument , which maketh nothing either against us , or for him . but to clear the fathers words in the very genuine sense they speak them . see s. chrysostome his meaning in his 14. hom. on s. john. s. augustines contra cresconium . c. 33. where he says , if any one fear to be deceived in this question , through its obscurity , let him ask councel of the church , which the holy scriptures do demonsrate without any ambiguity . that of s. irenaeus in his 2. book ch. 47. and more expresly in his 1. book ch. 49. s. thomas his words , that what ever is necessary to be believed under the spiritual sense , that some where is manifestly declared by the letter , as they do not specifie to whom this manifest declaration is made , so we grant it to the church and her doctors , for to her all things are known , says st. irenaeus in which is perfect faith ; as to the apostles it was given by our saviour christ to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven , 5. but i would ask m. menzeis did ever any of these fathers receive the scriptures as the undoubted word of god , otherwise then on the churches authority ? s. augustine saying , i would not believe the scriptures , if the authority of the church did not move me to it , is no less clear for this , then scripture it self in fundamentals . or did ever any of them fancy to himself a place of scripture , as clear for any thing , the whole church standing in a contrary judgment ? for this is the only point we debate with protestants , and clearly prove both by the scriptures and fathers against them . 6. however scripture be clear in fundamentals , in the sense i have given , that is particularly , and in as many words , or generally , and as commanding us to hear the church , yet surely it doth not set down all that is fundamental in express terms , if we trust the fathers , whom m. menzeis appeals to , as holding scripture clear in fundamentals ; or can all be so evidently deduced from scripture , but by the authority of the church , that hereticks be silenced , and unity preserved in faith. s. chrysostome on 2 thes . 2. says it is evident that the apostles did not deliver all things by writing , but many things without , and those be as worthy of credit as others . which he could not have said , if fundamentals were only the infallible truths , and they clearly revealed in scripture . s. epiphanius , heres . 61. we must use traditions , for the scriptures have not all things ; yet no necessity of using traditions , if all fundamentals were in scripture , they only being necessary according to protestants . s. augustine l. 5. de bapt. contr. donat . ch. 23. the custome of the church in baptizing infants , is neither to be contemned , or any wise thought superfluous , yet not to be believed if it were not an apostolical tradition . if this was not in his judgment , a fundamental , hear himself again , l. 3. de orig. anim. c 9. if thou will be a catholick , believe not , teach not , say not , that infants prevented by death before they are baptized , can come to the pardon of their original sin . is it not a fundamental to believe scripture to be the word of god , which s. augustine takes on tradition ? what if a man should receive the new testament as sufficiently containing fundamentals , and reject the old with the manichees ? admit of some of the evangels , but not others with the ebionits ? what if one should deny the word person , the name and definition of a sacrament , the keeping of sunday , because not clear in scripture , and consequently no fundamentals according to m. menzeis rule . marcion , and with him the anabaptists , teach baptism should be conferred more then once . the donatists , that baptisme of hereticks , at least should be reiterated . sabellius , one only person in the godhead . nestorius , two persons in christ , and for this are accounted hereticks ; yet no clear scripture is brought condemning their errours . s. augustine l. de unitate eccl. says expresly of the donatists errour , this neither you nor i read in express words . 7. how many scriptures are clear against protestants in all controverted tenets ? so that however it be clear in fundamentals , it clearly speaketh against them . see for this the touchstone of the reformed gospel ; with the manual of controversie , and after you have pondered the places quoted in them , judge whether the protestant religion be rightly defined by m. menzeis , the christian religion as contained in scripture , and their protestancy , only their protesting against popish errours . which definition if good , having its genus proximum & differentiam ultimam , should distinguish protestants from all other sectaries ; but this it doth not , it being common to them with most hereticks , who have ever been : all of them professing with you sir , to adhere to the written word they received , and as understood by themselves , as the arians , nestorians , pelagians , photinians , &c. and all protesting against the churches errours , and popes authority . for as the sole roman church did ever oppose all hereticks , as the only zealous defender of the true faith and doctrine , which s. paul calls the depositum entrusted to her ; so all generally how soon they turn hereticks , protest , prattle , preach chieflly against her ; turn over all the writings of authours , who have made mention of heresies , and you shall find that all from the first to the last have opposed themselves to that company of christians , which was in communion with the pope and bishop of rome for the time ; and that this company hath opposed it self to them all , neither did they oppose themselves all to any other company whatsoever . yea this was ever the distinctive mark of hereticks , not to communicate with the pope and sea of rome ; as may be seen in the writings of the fathers . st. irenaeus l. 3. c. 3. s. hierome ep. 57. s. cyprian , in his epistle to pope cornelius , s. augustine in ps . contr. part . don. and generally in all ages , and by all , so that you protesting with them against the church and pope , take their very badg and livery , and shamefully declare by this charactaristick mark of your defection , from the ever acknowledged true church , and high bishop thereof , by all the fathers , your apostacy , heresie , and schism . it is very plausible i must confess to poor ignorants , when preachers make them believe they teach nothing , save only the pure scripture and written word , protesting against all unwritten traditions as popish errours . but if any man consider a little with himself your tenets in particular , he shall presently find , it is openly against god , and his written word ye protest , in all points of controversie , under the false pretence of protesting against popery ; and that not so much as one tenet peculiar to you is contained in scripture . this i evidence in most articles of popish doctrine you protest against , where all may see and judge how well your religion is contained in scripture . is it not to protest against the goodness of god to say with you , he created some for hell independently , of their works , and likewise against his word , 1 ▪ tim. 2. where it is said , he will have all to be saved , and in the 2. ep. of st. peter 3. where he is declared not willing any should perish . is it not to protest against his mercy , and express word again , to say he died not for all ? the apostle s. paul , assuring he did die for all , and as that in adam all died , so in christ all be restored to life , 1 cor. 13. is it not to protest against his justice and word , to teach that he punisheth us for what we cannot do , as for the want of good works , which protestants will have not to be in our power . yet the apostle says , heb. 6.10 . god is not unjust that he should forget our work . is it not to protest against the wisdom and word of god , to say he obliges us to perform things impossible , as protestants call the commandements ? where as saint john in 1 ep. c. 5. says they are not so much as heavy . is it not to protest against his veracity and word , to affirm that the church can teach errours , and stand in need of reformation ; christ having commanded us to hear it , in s. matt. 18. and the apostle s. paul 1 tim. 3. calling it the pillar and ground of truth . is it not to protest against his providence and word , to assert that he has given us the dead letter of the law , ( without an infallible visible judge , leaving to every poor ignorant to interpret scripture according to his fancy , s. peter , having said , no scripture is of private interpretation , and christ having commanded us to hear his church . is it not to protest against the efficacy of christs mediation , sufferings , death , and also his word , to hold that he hath freed us from the pain , but not from the guilt of sin . s. joh. 1. rev. 5. saying he washed us from our sins in his own blood . and s. paul , 1 cor. 6. we are washed , justified , sanctified . is it not to protest against his divine order , to tye our sanctification to faith only , and his express word in s. james 2.24 . ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by faith only . is it not to protest against his divine appointment again and his word , to teach that good works done in his grace , and by his grace , merit nothing ? when through all the scripture heaven is promised as a reward to our works , and in st. matth. 10. it is said , christ shall render to every one according to his works . is it not to protest against his divine authority and word , to deny the real presence ? all the evangelists speaking so clearly , this is my body , this is my blood. is it not to protest against his express command and word , to forbid images as idols ? he having ordered two cherubims to be set on the ark of the covenant , exod. 25. is it not to protest against his own practice and word , to deny we should honour his saints , whom god himself honours , yea , and glorifies . them that honour me , i will honour , 1 reg. 2.30 . is it not to protest against his dispensation and word , to deny the power given to his apostles and their successours to forgive sins ? he having said in s. john 20.23 . whose sins ye shall forgive , they are forgiven . is it not to protest against the satisfaction which his justice requires for our sins , even after the guilt is forgiven , to deny purgatory ? the scripture witnessing that he did exact satisfaction of david , and many holy penitent sinners after he had forgiven their sins . and s. paul ▪ 1 cor. 3. if any ones work burn , he shall suffer loss , but himself shall be saved , yet so as by fire ; where we have clearly a purging , and punishing , yet saving fire . is it not to protest against christs eternal priesthood , according to the order of melchisedech , ps . 109. and s. paul , hebr. 5. to reject the unbloody and unspotted sacrifice of the mass , which the prophet malachy 1. c. 10. v. calls a clean oblation to be offered amongst the gentiles , from the rising of the sun , even to the setting , and that in every place . is it not to protest against all god commands us and his word ? to take away free will in obeying , deut. 30.19 . i have set before you life and death , chuse . to conclude , what point is there in all the catholick faith , which protestants protest against , which is not either directly against gods divine attributes , christs mediation , and dispensation , his churches authority , his saints , and servants honour , some part of christian duty , belief , or life , or generally not against his express written word , as it is plain in it self , or expounded , by the unanimous consent of the fathers ? and yet so impudently bold is this spirit of heresie , as to dare say , that that is contained in scripture , which scripture most evidently contradicts ; that is only in opposition to popish errours , which impugnes the very fundamental , and most substantial verities of the gospel and christian faith ; that by the pure and uncorrupted word , it will reform the church , when corrupting the word , and correcting the church as subject to failings and errours in religion , it ruinateth both church and word . what has been said in this , and the former section , further instanced in two particular controverted points ; the real presence , and two sacraments . the protestant religion is , the christian religion as contained in scripture : sole scripture is their ground , and in it all fundamentals are clear ; says m. menzeis . how false all this is in general , doth evidently i hope appear , by what i have said above . here i instance only further two particular points , he handles at length , the better to make see the falshood of his strong and bold assertions , in the weakness and nullity of his proofs . and this first in his refuting one of our chief tenets , viz. the real presence , then in maintaining one of his own , to wit , that there are two sacraments , and no more . 1. then to prove christs body is not really in the sacrament , these most clear words , this is my body ; must not , says he , be taken in the literal sense , but figuratively : why so , doth the scripture say this ? no , no scripture is brought . what then ? a philosophical demonstration as he pretends . the word this , in the literal sense is inexplicable , and the proposition implyeth a contradiction , ergo , &c. but why the pronoun this inexplicable , because let romanists strain their wits , answers m. menzeis ; and squeeze their authors , they cannot tell what it can signifie , whether the bread , body , or something indeterminately . who would not laugh here to see mr. menzeis , a professor of divinity take such a weak argument for a demonstration ? most like in this to a certain romantick knight errand call'd don quicsot , who imagining to himself a windmil to be a gyant , and then fighting with it , as with a hector , he did both blunt his sword , and batter his reputation . for what , i pray you , doth the pronone this signifie in any proportion , but indeterminately , till it be determined to some particular thing , by the following words . so that let a man say a hundred times this , he determines nothing but by the ensuing words , as here this is my body , makes a determinated sense , the last words determinating the first , which alone , and of it self signifies nothing determinately , and so to seek what it signifies determinately alone , and before the other words be pronounced , is to quibble and speak non-sense , by seeking a determinate object under a word , which of its nature hath none . and this is the first part of his demonstration for establishing , by a logick sophism , without any clear scripture , a main point of religion . the second part of this demonstration is , that it implyes a manifest contradiction , a true affirmative proposition , de praesenti , should produce its object . why this , because in the instant of nature wherein the proposition is conceiv'd before its object , as the cause before its effect : the proposition should be true as is supposed , and not true , because the object in that instant is not . the same argument he urgeth in the instant of time wherein the copula is pronounced , or particle is , before the two last words . and for that catholick authours give many and diverse solutions of this argument , as the custome is in the school , he will be satisfied with none . but because mr. menzeis is good at retortions , i retort his argument thus : is not this a true affirmative proposition , de praesenti , which produces its object in st. john 15. this is my command , that ye love one another . now what difficulty in the former proposition , either in the word this , or in the instants of nature and time , or that a true affirmative proposition make its own object , which is not here ? do not these words make a new command says christ , as the former his body ? what if m. menzeis could have brought an axiome of philosophy against the real presence ( as that maxime , so commonly propounded and answered in the school , quae sunt eadem cum uno tertio sunt eadem inter se ) proving as would seem , that the three persons being identified , and the same thing with the godhead and divine nature , cannot be really distinguished one from another . should a christian bely christ , who is the first verity , upon pretence he speaketh against natural reason ? who will so reason with god ; let him hear s. bernards most excellent saying , ep. 109. what is more against reason , then that one should strive to go beyond reason by force of reason . but true it is , no mystery of our faith is against reason , though some there be above the reach of humane weakness . wherefore as the former maxime , though much stronger , then what m. menzeis here objects , is shown to have no repugnancy with the distinction of persons by our divines ; so i easily answer him , the proposition is true in the instant of nature , the object being only extant in the instant of time wherein the proposition is compleatly ended , because it affirmeth only its object to be extant , in that instant of time , and not before . in that instant of nature , wherein the proposition precedes its object , it affirms indeed the object to be , but not for that instant , as i say truly this day what will be to morrow ; in instanti naturae vera est propositio , sed non pro instanti naturae , say they in the school . but m. menzeis argument if solid , would prove against all phylosophy , there could be no practick knowledge , which hath no real object , but what it makes to it self ; for that in such conceptions of the mind , the act of the understanding is ever prior to the object , as its cause ; and so in that instant of priority ( if his objection have place ) we shall have a knowledge of nothing , because in it the object is not . yea it should prove in all these places of scripture , let the light be made , let the firmament be made , young man i say unto thee rise ; i will , be thou healed , and in such like , the omnipotent word of god not to be effectual , if the words did not produce what they signifie , as these other words , this is my body . so that m. menzeis here , taking this his trifling , & whimsical sophism , for an unanswerable argument , shews not only his weakness both in phylosophy and grammar , but also manifestly that hereticks contradict christs most clear words , and the authority of his church upon most insignificant and frivolous objections . and upon such trifling sophisms shall any christian refuse to believe , what christ hath taught in so express terms ? what the evangelists have so accurately set down in holy writ : what the fathers have confirmed in so many volumes : what the martyrs have subscribed with their blood : what the church doth testifie by her pastors and practise : what god hath sealed with so many miracles and wonders ; sometime appearing in the consecrate host in form of a man ; sometimes ( when it has been stabbed by jews and hereticks ) making it gush out in blood ; sometimes by its vertue , casting out devils , or quenching fire , as so many authentick records , both of history and fathers do witness . o boldness and impudence of heresie so to cavil at christs own words , and yet proudly pretend , pure scripture is its only ground ! 2. to instance how m. menzeis again , from scripture clear in fundamentals , proves that fundamental tenet of protestants , yea their proper and only tenet ( all the rest being borrowed from old condemed heresies , as we have seen . ) there be two sacraments and no more . after a huge work in his last paper , and a whole year spent , before the answer to this query did appear , instead of clear scripture ( which he was only desired to bring ) he gives the following discourse . 1. to clear the state of the question , he says , know we do not affirm , that the word sacrament is to be found in scripture . 2. we understand by a sacrament of the new testament , a substantial visible sign instituted by god , recorded in the gospel , to seal up the promises of salvation , which is to endure in the church to the end of the world . 3. we do affirm in this sense , there be only two proper sacraments in the new testament , baptisme and the lords supper . 4. then coming to prove there be two sacraments , and two only ; that there be two , he proves it thus , to baptism and the lords supper , agree all the parts of the foresaid description , for you have , says he , the divine institution of baptizing with water , , mat. 28.19 . and of the lords supper , 1 cor. 11.23 , 24 , 25. that they are seals of the promises of salvation is no less clear : and first of baptism , act. 2.38 , 39. and also of the lords supper , in so much that the cup is called the new testament , which you must acknowledge to be no proper speech , but it is only so called , because it is , sigillum foederis ; hence also in the institution , mention is made of the remission of sins , and of the giving of the body of christ , and sheding of his blood for us , holding forth that forgiveness of sins , and all other blessings , purchased by the death of christ , and promised in the new covenant ; are by this ordinance sealed to the people of god. and that these ordinances are to continue to the end of the word , is no less manifest from matt. 28.20 . and 1 cor. 11.26 . in fine , he proves there be only two sacraments , by this argument , more cannot be produced out of scripture , as shall be proved , solutione objectionum ergo , &c. now to reflect how judiciously , and learnedly m. menzeis here proves from scripture there be two sacraments , and two only . 1. he doth not affirm the word sacrament to be in scripture . 2. of all the definition or description he brings , not so much as one particle is affirmed in scripture to be essential to a sacrament : ( i do not dispute at present how much of it is true in it self , or granted by us ) i only desire it may be made clear from scripture , as clearly containing all fundamentals of the protestant religion , which is the only thing in question . but nothing is proved by him , save only that baptism , and the lords supper are of divine institution , as many other things be , which are not sacraments . to prove they are seals of the promises of salvation , he cites for baptism , act. 2.28 , 29. the words omitted by him , i hear set down . but peter said to them , do pennance , and be every one of you baptized in the name of jesus christ for remission of your sins , and you shall receive the gift of the holy ghost : for to you is the promise , and to your children , and to all that are far off , whomsoever the lord our god shall call . no word here baptism is a seal of the promises of salvation . it is said indeed to be given for the remission of sins , and that to whom it is given , they receive the gifts of the holy ghost , which both protestants deny ; maintaining there is no virtue in baptism to confer either of these effects . it is said further , that to the jews and their children , yea to all that god shall call , promise is made , but that baptism is a seal of the promise of salvation , neither the text , nor any consequence he draweth from it doth evince it . the way he proves from scripture , the lords supper to be a seal of the promises of salvation , is rare ; for that says he , it is called the new testament , which we must acknowledge to be no proper speech , but to be only so called , because it is , sigillum foederis . this is his commentary on the text ; but what a necessary and clear consequence is this ? if ever such a consequence as clearly deduced from scripture was heard of , i leave it to the reader to judg ; so clearly are the sacraments , and main fundamentals of the protestant religion , contained in scripture , or clearly deduced from it . but m. menzeis thought it ( as it seems by his so long a digression in his last paper ) a more easie task to impugne our sacraments ( though no part of the present work ) then to prove his own . no scripture , councils , or fathers hold out seven sacraments . answer , yes sir , both scripture , councels , fathers do ; not as bare signs with you , but as visible or sensible signs of the invisible grace they produce in the soul , as instituted by christ our lord , for our sanctification . in this sense , there be seven sacraments set down in the gospel , decreed by counc●ls , approved by the fathers . and 1 ▪ that the fathers did so understand a sacrament , is confessed by protestants , who even dare censure the fathers for this : as musculus loc . comm . p. 299. did s. augustine , for affirming inconsiderately , that the sacraments of the new testament give salvation ; zwinglius , tom. 2. de bapt. fol. 70. all the antient doctors for supposing the water of baptism to purge sin . the century writers , cent. 2. c. 4. col. 47. in particular censures , s. clement disciple of the apostles , and justin martyr , for thinking regeneration not only to be signified , but wrought by baptism : and in the 3. cent. c. 4. s. cyprian , for teaching that the person baptizing doth give sanctity , and the holy ghost , to the baptized . 2 that such a number of visible or sensible signs instituted by christ , for conferring grace , and taking away sin , is set down in scripture , is clear from the following texts . for baptisme , acts 2.38 . be every one of you baptized for the remission of sins . ephes . 5.25 . christ loved the church , cleansing it by the laver of water . for confirmation , acts 17. then they did impose their hands upon them , and they received the holy ghost . 2 cor. 1.22 . and he that confirmeth us with you in christ , and hath anoyled us , god who also hath sealed us , and given the pledge of the spirit in our hearts . for pennance , s. john 20.23 . whose sins ye shall forgive , they are forgiven , &c. acts 16.18 . and many of them that believed , came confessing their deeds . for the eucharist , s. matt. 26. s. mark. 14. s. luke 22. this is my body , &c. s. john 6. i am the living bread , i am the bread of life , he that eateth of this bread , shall live for ever . for extream unction , s. james 8.14 . if any be sick , let him bring in the priests of the church , and let them pray over him , anoyling him with oyl , in the name of our lord , &c. and if he be in sins , they shall be remitted him . s. mark 6.13 . and they anointed with oyl many that were sick , and healed them . for holy order , 2 tim. 1.6 . i admonish thee , that thou resuscitate the grace of god , which is in thee , by the imposition of my hands . for matrimony , ephes . 5.32 . this sacrament is great . in all which places of scripture we have manifestly the external sign , either called a sacrament , or to it annexed the forgiving of sins , or conferring of life and grace , which makes it a sacrament of the new law. so that there is no lurking here under ambiguity of words , as m. menzeis will have it . however hereticks vary in explaining scripture , the word of god doth not vary , nor his church in understanding it . 3. as for the fathers and councils , see the summary of controversies , of the efficacy and number of sacraments , where the places are marked , and the manual of controversie , art. 28. where both scripture and fathers are cited at length . luther himself de captiv . babyl . granteth s. dennis disciple of s. paul to stand for seven sacraments . s. augustine hath them all . baptism in his 28. epistle to s. hierom. confirmation in his second book against petilian , c. 104 ▪ pennance in his 2. sermon upon the ps . 101. eucharist , in his 26. treatise of s. john , and his ep. 120. to honoratus , where he calls it both a sacrifice and a sacrament . extream unction in his 5. book of baptism , c. 5. holy orders , in his 2. book against parmen . c. 13. matrimony in his book of faith and good works , c. 7. and de bono conjug . c. 24. so that , when he speaks of two sacraments of the church ( gemina ecclesiae sacramenta ) he understands there is two chief ones , to wit baptism by reason of its necessity to salvation . and the eucharist for its excellency , and necessity both in his opinion . but to insist further on this here , is neither to the present purpose , or any part of what i did at first undertake . m. menzeis running here and there , as in a labyrinth , to shew the fathers take not alwayes the word sacrament in the strict and proper sense , doth only involve himself in unextricable difficulties , standing to his ground of scripture clear in fundamentals , which no where defines what properly a sacrament is , or any where resolves and determinates what may be ambiguous and doubtful , either in it self , or the fathers . how then shall we be assured of this without an infallible visible judge ? when some take even the clearest scriptures and writings of the fathers in one sense , some in another . but the catholick church having received the sacraments from christ and his apostles , and constantly administrated them in the sense , and for the ends they were instituted , hath sufficiently declared both the number and nature of sacraments , according to the tradition of the apostles , and constant practise of the same church , which is an infallible ground to us , whilest all hereticks , with m. menzeis are so intricate in the present question , by the diversity of notions , they either find in authours , or fancy to themselves , ( some admitting not only seven , sayes mr. menzeis , but seventeen sacraments , some , seven times seven , some seventy seven , yea , and more ) that they lye still either in the lurking holes of obscurity and ambiguity , the better to palliate their errours , or wander up and down in their unsetled belief , following their fallible conjectures , uncertain opinions , and groundless faith. sect . vi. mr. menzeis second ground of the protestant religion , viz. the doctrine of the church in the first three centuries or ages , proved no ground to them , yea their very ruine . as historiographers remark , the greatest empires have begun to decay , how soon they left off to ground their greatness on new conquests : and the naturalists observe , that trees , and plants do presently fade , when their roots do not spread as the branches spring up : so the protestant religion should have instantly been chocked in its rise , and as smothered in the cradle ; if protestants standing constantly to their first principle , had still rejected the doctrine of the church , under the specious pretence of adhering only to the pure and naked word as a ground most pure and clear , scriptures making ▪ so clearly against them . wherefore , though the first reformers ( as i shall presently shew ) did disclaim the doctrine of the church in any age after the apostles , as infallible , or ground of faith , disclaim the fathers , disclaim miracles , disclaim a succession from any : yet others after the first heat of passion had a little relented , finding all this most disgraceful , and a most evident conviction of their errours , and fearing their religions both fall and ruine , if not speedily propped ; claim a succession , though from old condemned heresies , with m. menzeis here , from the waldenses , wickliffians , hussits , as we have seen : cite the fathers , though either to no purpose , or else corruptedly with du plessis , so evidently confuted by the cardinal du peron , pretend to miracles with m. pool in his nullity of the romish faith , though falsly , most protestants disowning miracles since the apostles time , and all the world witnessing , it did never see a miracle amongst them ; yea they grant in fine , the diffusive body of the church to be infallible in believing , but not the representative , or pastors even assembled in a general council , infallible in teaching , with m. menzeis again here : who upon this gives us for a second ground of the protestant religon ; the doctrine of the church in the first three centuries or ages . the sole reason he gives for the churches doctrine , as being a ground of faith at that time is , because , if the catholick religion was not then purely conserved in her , it was no where to be found ( ab sit says he blasphemia ) which without blasphemy cannot be thought . whereupon i first reflect , that if it be blasphemy to deny , the catholick religion must always be purely conserved in some church ; many chief protestants surely speak open blasphemy , who most boldly affirm before the reformation made by luther and calvin , no church to have conserved true religion in its purity at all . luther comment . in 1 cor. 1.15 . i was the first to whom god vouchsafed to reveal these doctrines which are now preached ; this praise they cannot take from us , that we were the first that brought light to the world : without our help , no man had ever learned one word of the ghospel . this m. wotton both acknowledgeth and confirmeth in exam. jur. rom. luther might well say he was the first , a son without a father , a schollar without a master , &c. calvin in an epistle of his to melancthon , it doth not a little concern us ( sayes he ) that not the least suspition of any discord risen amongst us descends to posterity , for it were a thing more then absurd , after we have been constrained to make separation from the whole world , if we in our beginning should also divide from one another . chillingworth , ch. 5. sect. 55. as for the external communion of the visible church , we have without scruple formerly granted , that protestants did forsake it . bucer . p. 660. all the world erred ( he speaks before the reformation ) in that article of the real presence . bibliander , in orat . ad princip . germ. c. 72. it is without all question , that from the time of gregory the great , the pope is the antichrist , who with his abomination hath made drunk all kings and people from the highest to the lowest . brochard , on the second ch. rev. p. 4. when the first assault was made upon the papacy by luther , the knowledge of christ was wanting in all and every one of his members . white , in his defence , c. 37. pa. 136. popery was a leprosie breeding so universally in the church , that there was no visible company of men , appearing in the world , free from it . bennet morgentern , in his treatise of the church , calls it ridiculous , to say any before luther had the purity of the gospel . simon voyon , cat. doct. in his epistle to the reader , says , when pope boniface was installed , then was that universal apostacy from the faith , which was foretold by paul. m. jewel upon the revelation fol. 110. the truth was then unheard of , when luther and zwingle came to preach the ghospel . febustian francus , in his epistle of abrogating ecclesiastical statutes , says , for certain , through the work of the antichrist , the external church , together with the faith and sacraments vanished away presently after the apostles departure , and for these thousand and four hundred years , the church hath been no where external and visible . from all which testimones of most renowned protestants , yea , and of the very first reformers is evidently proved : first , that they did not think any visible church to have conserved at all times , the purity of the gospel , which m. menzeis calls blasphemy to deny . secondly , that they claim not a succession from any that went before them ( except only from the apostles ) what ever later protestants do falsly pretend . thirdly , that they own no more the diffusive body of the church infallible then the representative , seeing no church prosessing the doctrine they did teach , is acknowledged by them for many hundred years before the reformation . fourthly , that popery was the only religion generally prevailing , and openly professed , for no less time then fourteen hundred years before luther . fifthly , how well m. menzeis agreeth with other protestants in this his second ground of faith. you shall presently , god willing , hear both greater and better witnesses deposing against him ; but first i ask what peculiar reason he has , why the church in her childhood , and younger age , should be a ground of faith , and not afterwards , and in her full maturity ? as we grant her , the fulness of divine wisdom even from her birth , which did not increase by age , so by age it cannot decay . we shall now presently see , how like the protestant church is to that of the three first centuries ; but before this , i would know , why m. menzeis gives her doctrine rather for a ground , then in following times ? is there any peculiar promise made to her , any particular reason militates for her , or any testimonies of the scriptures , or fathers given to her in one time , rather then in another ? was her doctrine then purer ? her condition more flourishing , her authority greater ? doth not m. menzeis grounding his faith upon the doctrine of the church in any age after the apostles , confirm that romish tenet of the church doctrine as a ground in other ages , by parity of reason ? secondly , i reflect that m. menzeis , who will admit of no infallible visible judg of controversie , of no infallible tradition not contained in scripture , nor of any assembly of the fathers , and pastor of the church in a general council as infallible in their decrees : here either acknowledgeth the records of the ecclesiastick history , and writings of the fathers , as witnessing infallibly to us , the doctrine of these ages , or else must grant he hath no infallible assurance that this his second ground of faith is solid and infallible . there being no other way left us ( without particular revelation ) to know what doctrine the church did teach , and believe in the first three ages , save only the writings of the fathers , and tradition of the present church ; which consequently m. menzeis must either here own as infallible , or avouch he builds his faith upon a sandy and fallible ground . the first reformers standing better to their own principles then he , and of much greater sincerity and learning , grant plainly the fathers of the primitive church , to hold many things in opposition to them . luther l. de servo arbitr . c. 2. and in his table conferences c. de patrib . eccl. the authority of the fathers is not to be regarded ; in the writings of hierome , there is not a word of true faith in christ , & sound religion : tertullian is very superstitious : i have holden origen long since accursed : of chrysostome , i make no account : basil is of no worth , he is wholly a monk , i weigh not him a hair ; cyprian is a weak divine , affirming there yet further , that the apology of melancthon doth far excell all the doctors of the church , yea even augustine himself . calvin l. 3. inst . c. 5. it was a custome 1300. years ago ( that is in the second age ) to pray for the dead , but all of that time , ( says he ) i confess were carried away with errour . and in the fourth book of his institutions , chapter 9. he will stand to no decision of councils , fathers , bishops , but try all by scripture alone ; granting generally all the western churches to have defended popery , resp . ad versipell . p. 134. melancthon on the first cor. 3. speaks plain , presently from the beginning of the church , the antient fathers obsc●●ed the doctrine of justice by faith , encreased ceremonies , and devised new worships . in like manner , peter martyr 1. devotis p. 477. that in the church , errours did begin , immediately after the apostles ; and therefore as long as we stand to councils and fathers , we shall be alwayes in the same errours . whitaker cont . 2. q. 5. c. 7. it is true which calvin and the centurists have written , that the antient church did err in many things , as touching limbo , free will , merit of works , &c. chemnitius in exam. conc . trid . pa. 200. most of the fathers did not dispute , but avouch , that the souls of martyrs heard the petitions of those who prayed to them , they went to the monuments of martyrs , and invocated martyrs by name . d. fulk in his confutation of purgatory , grants tertullian , cyprian , hierome , augustine do witness , that sacrifice for the dead is a tradition of the apostles ; yea in his retentive , says , prayer for the dead prevailed within the first 300. years . and in his answer to a counterfeit catholick , that pope victor in the second age , did practise supremacy in the church . the centurists do reprehend cyprian , origen , tertullian in the third century ; and s. gregory nazianzen in the fourth , for teaching peters primacy ; as they do also s. cyprian in the third century , of superstition for saying , that the priest ( at mass ) holds the place of christ , and offers up sacrifice to god the father . sacerdotem cyprianus inquit , vice christi fungi & deo patri sacrificium offerre . and generally confess , the fathers of the third age do witness , and that not in obscure terms invocation of saints ; videas , in doctorum hujus soeculi scriptis non obscura vestigia invocationis sanctorum . they say further in the second century , s. irenaeus admitteth free will , even in spiritual actions , and that s. clement every where asserteth it , so that the doctors and parstors of that age , were in this manner of blindness , say they , reckoning out in this number , s. cyprian , theophilus , tertullian , origen , clemens alexandrinus , justine , irenaeus , athenagoras , tatianus , &c. as doth also abraham scultetus with them . yea doctor humphrey in his jesuitisms , pa. 2. and else where eccl. c. 15. says , it cannot be denyed , but that s. irenaeus , s. clement , and other fathers of the first and second age called apostolicks ( for that they were disciples of the apostles , or immediately followed them ) have in their writings the opinion of free will , and merit of works ; the cen●ury writers , and scultetus tax for the same clement of alexandria , s. cyprian , justin martyr , &c. in the third century , they say , origen made good works , the cause of justification , and in the 5. accuse , s. chrysostome for handling the doctrine of justification impurely , as attributing merit to works . m. whitaker saith , that not only cyprian , but almost all the most holy fathers of that time were in that errour , as thinking so to pay the pain due to sin , and to satisfie to gods justice , in so far as luther on the 4. ch . to the gallathians calls for this , hierome , ambrose , augustine , and other fathers justice-workers of the old papacy . and m. wotton in his defence of m. perkins , forbeareth not to censure , for this very point of merit , the undoubted and confessed writings of ignatius , disciple of s. john. chemnitius in his examine , par . 4. p. 20. affirmeth the antient fathers erred in making pilgrimages to relicks of saints ; and osiander with the centurists , cent. 4. that s. hierome did foolishly contend , that the relicks of saints ought to be worshipped . for owning traditions , chemnitius in his exam. par. 1. p. 87.89.90 . reproves clement of alexandria ; origen , epiphanius , hierome , ambrose , basil , maximus , damacene , and m. whitaker , de sacr. script . s. chrysostome as speaking inconsiderately when he admitteth them . d. reynolds in his concla . 1. p. 689. somewhat more moderate , leaves the censuring of s. epiphanius , for this to the church . m. whitgift in his defence against cartwrights reply , grants ignatius disciple of the apostles , to have said of hereticks , they do not admit the eucharist to be the flesh of our saviour jesus christ , which flesh suffered for our sins . and m. beacon in his treatise , the relicks of rome , says the mass was begotten , conceived , and born anon after the apostles time , if it be true , what historiographers write . calvin l. 1. inst . c. 4. confesseth in the primative church , confession , pennance , and absolution by the priests : and the century writers , that in the times of s. cyprian and tertullian , there was used private confession , even of thoughts , and lesser sins , then so commanded as necessary . where any judicious reader may evidently see , how by chief protestant authours , both the primitive church , and the fathers are censured for many errours . yea and for the very same , which are most objected against the romish church , a most invincible argument from the confession of our adversaries ; that the church and fathers of the three first ages , did teach the self same doctrine with the present roman church , and with pope pius in his confession of faith in all those points quoted by them , free will , merit of works , invocation of saints , honouring of relicks , prayer and sacrifice for the dead , s. peters primacy amongst the apostles , the popes supremacy in the church , mass , traditions , the real presence , confession , pennance , absolution , &c. so that if m. menzeis will stand to his own word , and trust the writings of his brethren , he is here again engaged to turn papist . many more such quotations could i produce from chief protestant writers , acknowledging both the church and fathers , of the first three ages , holding most controverted tenets , flatly against protestants . and yet so confident m. menzeis is , he dare take the church doctrine at that time , for a ground of the protestant religion , and this no doubt to shew the deepness of his learning , and how well he is versed in antiquity , till presently we hear the fathers themselves speaking , the better to make both his weakness and igorance appear . but before i enter upon this , i remark m. menzeis in his 8. paper , says , we agree with protestants in all their positive tenets , and only in their negatives disagree . how true this is , i do not now dispute ; yet must here reflect , that all chief heresies , for the most part , with that of protestants have ever consisted in negations , and in denying some points of faith , generally received in the church . sabellius denyed three persons in the god-head , eutiches two natures in christ ; nestorius in christ one person : the monothelites two wills in christ , as two natures : the arians , christ to be consubstantial with his father : the macedonians , the consubstantiality of the holy ghost : marcion , that baptism in the church should be conferred but once , the novatians , that sinners after baptism could be absolved upon repentance ; and even such heresies protestants most claim to ; as the grecians deny the procession of the holy ghost from the father and the son ; the waldenses deny princes and magistrates to conserve their digities and power when fallen in mortal sin : the hussits deny that the predestinate could sin ; the albigenses , marriages to be lawful ; the wickliffians , free will , and so forth . negatio est malignantis naturae , say the philosophers , negations are of a malignant nature , whence we see , that as atheism consists in denying god , so heresies are most in negations , as flowing from the spirit of pride , contradiction , rebellion . however it is time we shew what conformity there is betwixt protestants negative tenets , and the doctrine of the church in the first three centuries , or ages ; m. menzeis provoking so confidently his adversary to bring any essential difference from the authentick writings of these fathers , and upon this engaging to turn papist . i do not here question further then i have done in my second reflection , how he who admits of no infallible visible judge , can be sufficiently assured of their authentick writings , for if he take this only upon their conformity with scripture , they can make no peculiar ground to him , rather then other mens writings , having the like conformity with it , or can they be caled properly a distinct ground from it ; but having seen how many chief protestants disown the most antient fathers , chalenge them of manyfold errours ; censure their doctrine ( a most strong conviction against m. menzeis , that they take not their writings for a ground ) let us hear themselves deposing clearly in our favour against him , and see if they who have confounded so many atheists , convinced so many infidels , converted so many hereticks , may even happily prevail with m. john. i cite here only the fathers in the first three centuries after christ , as m. menzeis makes only his appeal to them : in which ages , the church being still under persecution , had not indeed so many writers as in following times , to witness her doctrine against all hereticks : yet you shall god willing see how clearly the chiefest of them dissent from protestants in all controverted tenets , and most disgracefully bely him . the fathers of the first three ages clearly speaking against protestants in all chief controverted tenets . i begin even at what is most principal , to wit , the popes supremacy , this potestants deny . but in the first age , s. denis de divinis nominibus , c. 3. calls s. peter first bishop of rome , the supreme and most antient top of divines . where both primacy and supremacy is given to him . s. clement disciple of s. peter in his first epistle , declares him both the ground stone of the church , and the most powerful of the apostles . s. ignatius disciple of s. john , in his epistle to the romans , extolling their church , calls her , the church that presides at rome . in the second age , s. irenaeus l. 3. contra valent . c. 3. says , the romish church is the greatest and most antient : and again , l. 3. c. 3. all churches round about ought to resort to the roman church , by reason of her more powerful principality . in the third age , zepherinus pope , in his epistle to the bishops of sicily decreed , that the greater causes of the church , were to be determined by the apostolick sea , because so the apostles and ther successors had ordained . in the third age , origen on the 6. ch. to the rom. says , the chief charge of feeding christs sheep was given to s. peter , and the church founded upon him . in the same age , s. cyprian ep. ad jul. we hold peter the head and root of the church ; and again , ep. 55. he calls the church of rome s. peters chair . yea in the second century , amandus polonus , m. spark , and m. whitaker , ( though protestants ) confess , that victor then bishop of rome ( whom m. whitgift calls a godly bishop ) carried himself as pope , or head of the church . so well has protestant doctrine in this point , a ground in rhe fathers of the first three ages ; that danaeus a protestant , in his answer to bellarmine , acknowledgeth soveraign authority to have been practised by the popes of the third age , the centurists , cent. 3. that tertullian did think the keys to be committed chiefly to s. peter , and the church to be built on him ; and s. cyprian to have taught , that the roman church ought to be acknowledged of all others , the mother church . now shall all this be called protestant doctrine , that s. peter was head and root of the church , that the church was founded upon him , that the chief charge of christs flock was given to him , that he is the supreme amongst divines ; that the church of rome is his chair , which for this hath a more powerful principality , as greatest , so that the greater causes in the church ought to be decided by her ? where by parts , all the controversie of the popes supremacy is holden out against them . secondly , protestants deny we should believe any thing not contained in scripture , upon apostolical tradition conserved in the church . but in the first age , s. denis , eccl. hierarch . c. l. speaking of the apostles , says , these our first captains of priestly function , did deliver to us the chiefest and most substantial points , partly in written , partly unwritten institutions . in the same age , s. ignatius , apud euseb . l. 3. hist . c. 36. doth exhort all to stick to the traditions of the apostles . in the second age , s. irenaeus , l. 3. c. 4. what if the apostles had left no scriptures at all , ought we not to follow the order of tradition , which they have delivered unto those , to whom they did commit their churches ? and to which assent many barbarous nations who believe in christ without character or ink. in the same age , origen hom. 5. in lib. num . there are many things in ecclesiastical traditions which all ought to do , and on the 6. ch. to the romans , he sayes , to baptize infants is one . in the third age , tertullian de praescr . teacheth hereticks are to be confuted rather by tradition then scripture ; and l. de cor. mil. speaking of the ceremonies of baptism , the sign of the cross , sacrifice for the dead , &c. he addeth , of these , and such like things , if thou require a ground in scripture , thou shalt find none : tradition did begin them , custome has confirmed their practice , and faith doth observe them . in the same age s. cyprian l. 1. ep. 12. says , he that is baptized , ought to be anointed , but of this unction , there is no mention in scripture ; and in his second b. ep. 3. he admonisheth water should be mixed with wine in the chalice at mass , upon a like tradition from the apostles . see in what i have cited heretofore , how the fathers have received the scriptures upon tradition , and many most substantial points with it , and upon due consideration of all this , let any one judg , whether the fathers of the first three ages , in these their most authentick writings i know , do make a ground for protestant or catholick doctrine , speaking so plainly , the chiefest & most substantial points of our faith , were delivered partly in written , and partly in unwritten institutions , exhorting us to stick to traditions conserved in the church , which serve for conversion of infidels , conviction of hereticks , and generally ought to be kept by all . 3. protestants deny the unbloody sacrifice of christs body and blood offered up to god in the mass . yet in the first age , the very liturgies of the apostles are extant , and in that of s. james , we offer unto thee ( o lord ) the unbloody sacrifice for our sins : and s. andrew in the book of his passion , written by his disciples , sayes unto the tyrant . i sacrifice daily the immaculate lamb to almighty god. and in the same age , s. clement , ep. 3. it is not lawful to celebrate masses in other places , but in these wherein the proper bishop shall appoint , these things the apostles receieved from our lord , and delivered to you . s. ignatius , ep. ad smyrnens . it is not lawful without a bishop to offer , or sacrifice , or celebrate mass . in the second age , s. irenaeus l. 4. ad u. heres . c. 32. calls the body and blood of christ , the oblation of the new testament , which the church having received from the apostles , offereth to god through the whole world . and tertullian , l. de veland . virg . it is not permitted that women should teach , or speak in the church , nor baptize , nor offer . origen hom . 13. in exod. you think your selves guilty , and unworthy if any part of the consecrated host be lost through your negligence . s. hippolitus , orat. de antichr . bringeth in christ speaking thus , come you bishops and priests , who have daily offered my precious body and blood. how clear are the following fathers , s. epiphanius , s. chrysostome , s. athanasius , s. basil , &c. with s. augustine for this ? as even in the third age , s. cyprian serm. de coena . dom . the eucharist is a holocaust to purge our sins , and in his epistle , ad cyrill . he calls it a sacrifice seven times . 4. protestants deny the real presence , and transubstantion . but in the first age , s. ignatius in his epistle ad smyrnenses ( often cited by eusebius , athanasius , s. jerome , theodoret and other antients ) speaking of the saturnian hereticks , says , they admit not of eucharists and oblations , because they do not confess the eucharist to be our saviours flesh , which suffered for our sins ; and in his epistle to the romans , i do not delight in any corruptible food , nor in the pleasures of this life , i desire the bread of god , the heavenly bread , which is the flesh of christ the son of god. s. denis areop . l. de eccl. hierarch . c. 3. o most divine and holy sacrament , vouchsafe mercifully to open the veils of those signifying signs , wherein thou hidest thy self , and appear plainly unto us . in the second age , s. irenaeus , l. 4. c. 34. disputing against the hereticks , who denyed christ to be the son of god ; asks how it shall be manifested unto them , that bread upon which thanks are given , is the body of our lord , and the challice , his blood , if they say he is not the son of the maker of the world . s. cyprian serm . de coena dom . the bread which our lord gave to his disciples , being changed not in shape , but in nature by the omnipotency of the word is made flesh . in the third age , origen , we eat the bread offered by prayer , made a certain holy body . and again , hom . 5. in div . loca evang. when thou receivest the holy food , thou eatest and drinkest the body and blood of our lord , then the lord entreth under thy roof , &c. in the same age , tertullian l. 4. contra marcion . c. 40. the bread taken and distributed to his disciples he made his body . what can be said more clearly then all this , either for the real presence , or transubstantiation , which is nothing but the change of the bread in christs body , here so plainly asserted . add to this , for communion under one kind , denyed by protestants , it is said to have been so given to infants ; by s. denis l. eccl. hierach . c. ult . to both infants and sick , by s. cyprian , serm . de lapsis n. 10. and by tertullian l. ad uxorem , to have been carried to private houses , yea and over sea by eusebius l. 5. hest . which could not be done , but under one kind . 5. protestants deny purgatory and prayers for the dead . but in the first age , s. denis eccl. hierarch . part . 3. c. 7. says the venerable prelate approaching powereth forth his holy prayer upon the dead , by that prayer he doth beseech the divine clemency to forgive all the sins of the dead committed trhough humane infirmities , and to place him in light , and in the region of the living . in the same age , s. clement l. 8. const . c. 48. has a long prayer accustomed to be said for the dead . again the same s. clem. ep. 1. de s. petro , tells us , s. peter taught them among other works of mercy , to pray and give alms for the dead . and in the liturgy of s. james apostle , we have prayers also for them . tertullian l. de corona . militis , numbreth prayer for the dead amongst the traditions of the apostles , and speaks thus , l. de anima c. 58. seeing we understand that prison which the gospel demonstrates to be places below , and the last farthing , we interpret every small fault there to be punished , by the delay of the resurrection , no man will doubt but that the soul doth recompence something in the places below , ibid. we make yearly oblations , says he , for the dead . origen hom . 6. in exod. he that is saved , is saved by fire , so that if a man have something mixed with lead , that the fire doth purge and resolve , that all may become pure gold. s. cyprian , l. 4. ep. 2. it is one thing to be purged a long time for sins by torment , and cleansed by a long fire , and another thing to purge all sins by patience and sufferings . what fire is more clear then s. augustine and others be with s. cyprian and origen here for a purging fire ? i know protestants expound that place of s. paul , 1 cor. 3. v. 13 , 14. of the fire of tribulation in this life , but not so , s. augustine in ps . 37. where citing the words of the apostle , he shall be safe , yet so as by fire , says , and because it is said , he shall be safe , that fire is contemned , yet that fire shall be more grievous then what ever a man can suffer in this life ; and then entring in a most fervent prayer continues , purge me , o lord , in this life , that i need not that mending fire . 6. protestants deny invocation and honouring of saints . but in the first age , s. denis eccl . hierarch . c. 7. says , i constantly affirm with the divine scripture , that the prayers of the saints are very profitable for us in this life , when a man is inflamed with a desire to imitate the saints , and distrusting his own weakness , he betakes himself to any saint , beseeching him to be his helper and petitioner to god for him , he shall obtain by that means very great assistance . in the same age s. clement l. apost . constit . 5. we command you , that the martyrs be in all honor among you , even as james the bishop , and stephen our fellow deacon have been amongst us , for god has made them blessed , and holy men have honoured them . in the second age , s. cornelius ep. 1. exhorteth to beseech god and our lord jesus christ , that his holy apostles making intercession for you , he would purge you from your sins . and justin martyr apol. 2. we worship and adore both god the father and his son , &c. as also the company of his followers , and the good angels , and we worship them both by words and deeds , and in truth even as we our selves have been taught and instructed . in the third age s. cyprian l. 4. ep. 9. the sufferings and days of martyrs we celebrate with a yearly remembracne . and origen in lament . i will begin to fall down on my knees , and pray to all his saints to succour me , who dare not ask god , for the exceeding greatness of my sins . o saints of my god , with tears i beseech you to fall down before his mercy for me a wretch . 7. protestants deny the use of the sign of the cross , and images . but in the first age , s. denis l. 2. eccl. hierarch . c. 2. the sign of the cross is so much honoured , that it is often used both in baptism and other sacraments . in the same age , s. martial ep. ad burdegal . remember the cross of our lord , keep it in your mind , speak often of it , have it in the sign , for it is your invincible armour against satan . tertullian l. de coron . milit . c. 3. in every thing we do , we sign our forehead with the sign of the cross , of which practice , tradition is the defender , custome the conserver , and faith the observer . and in his time he sayes l. 2. de pudicit . the image of christ bearing a lamb , was graven on the chalices used in churches ; and how famous is the memory of many more images in the first three ages , as that of our saviour sent to abgarus prince of edessa , of which see evagrius l. 4. c. 26. mataphrastes , in the life of constantine , s. john damascon in his book of images . that which the woman cured of a flux set up in brass at caesaraea philippi ; as witness eusebius in his 7. book ch. 14. so zomenus l. 5. c. 20. and damascene again , ibid. a third made by nicodemus , which being afterward taken by the jews , and in mockery crucified , was honored by god with many miracles , as is related by s. athanasius , or some other most antient author of the book intituled , of the passion of our lords image . besides these , theodorus lect. l. 1. collectan . maketh mention of one of our blessed lady , drawn by s , luke ▪ eusebius relateth , that he did see many antient images of christ placed betwixt s. peter and s. paul , as much witnesseth s. augustine l. 1. de cons . evan. c. 10. damasus in the life of s. silvester , writeth that constantine in the place where he was baptized , erected silver images of our saviour and s. john baptist , as also others in the church of s. john lateran , which the first christian emperour had never done , nor s. silvester permitted , if the practice of the church from the apostles had not been such . 8. protestants deny free will , after the fall of adam , but in the first age , s. clement l. 3. recognit . asketh how doth god judge every man by his deeds according to truth ; if he have not in his power to do what is commanded , if this be held , all things are frustrate , in vain shall the study be of following better things ; in the same age s. ignatius ep. ad magn. if any man do wickedly , he is a man of the devil , not made so by nature , but by his own free will. in the second age , s. justin martyr in apol. unless mankind can both fly foul and undecent things , and follow fair and good things of his own free will ; it is without all cause and blame of theirs , howsoever things be done . s. irenaeus l. 4. c. 72. not only in works , but even in faith hath almighty god reserved liberty of will to man , saying , be it to thee according to thy faith. in the third age , s. cyprian in deut. & l. 3. ad quirin . c. 52. the freedome of believing or not believing , is placed in the will. in the same age origen hom . 12. in num. o israel , what doth thy lord god require of thee ? let them be ashamed of these words , who deny free will in man ; how should god require of man , unless man had in his power , what to offer to god requiring . 9. protestants deny merit of works . but in the first age , s. ignatius ep. ad rom. says , give me leave to become the food of beasts , that by that means i might merit and win god. in the second , justin martyr , apol. 2. we think that men who by works have shewed themselves worthy , &c. shall by their merits live and reign with him . in the third , s. cyprian l. de unit. eccl . we must obey his precepts and admonitions , that our merits may receive their reward . and in his serm. de eleem. if the day of our return shall find us unloadned , swift , and running in the way of good works , our lord will not fail to reward our merits . 10. protestants deny the possibility of keeping the commandements , which s. basil . orat . in illud attende tibi ; calls a wicked thing to say . s. hierome on the 5. of s. matthew , blasphemy : s. augustine , serm . 61. de tempore , a denial both of the justice and holiness of god. in the the third age , tertullian as cited by the centurists , cent. 3. says , no law could tye him , who had not in his power due obedience to the law. this is a maxime in philosophy ; wherefore origen hom . 9. in jos . sayes plainly , the baptized may fulfil the law in all things . now not to be more tedious or prolix in ciing either passages or fathers ( whose quotations could easily make a just volume ) of the sacraments i have spoken in the former section ; and of the pastors of the church , their infallible authority in a general council , in the third : which with what is here said , are the main things and most substantial denyed by protestants , but clearly asserted by the fathers cited , who all confessedly did live in the first three ages , a very few excepted ; i have brought , of the fourth and fifth age , only as witnesses of what was practised in the church before their time ; leaving the canons of the apostles , and many things by tradition from them conserved in the church , and witnessed by the fathers , with the decrees of most holy popes and martyrs of the first and second age , as these of anacletus , alexander , sixtus , telesphorus , pius , anicetus , soter , &c. holding out so many of our tenets against protestants : and this to shun cavils and exceptions , which they might take either at their writings or place , as they do . as for the same cause many other most renouned authors , as policarpus , cornelius , prochorus , methodius , nilus , agapetus , dorotheus and others , upon this only account , with the book of hermes ( of whom s. paul to the romans , ch. 16. maketh mention ) called the pastor , which hamelmanus and m. hooker both protestants , grant to have been reckoned by the antient fathers in the number of ecclesiastical books , and particularly as seemeth to hamelmanus by no less men then irenaeus , clement , and origen . yet this book in such esteem with them , he will have to be impure , as laying the ground of purgatory , prayer for the dead , merit and justification of works , of professed chastity in priests and church-men , of fasting from certain meats at times , &c. but i hope m. menzeis will make no exception against most authors i have produced , unless passing from his appeal to the fathers of the first three ages ; he pass also from his second ground of faith , as certainly after all has been said he should do , seeing i may justly speak home to him here , with s. augustine in his 11. book against julian , the pelagian heretick , c. 10. what the catholick fathers and doctors have found in the church , that they hold : what they have received from their forefathers , that they have delivered to their children . whilest we had no debate as yet with you before them as judges , our case was pleaded amongst them ; we were not as yet contesting with you , and nevertheless by their decree we have the victory over you . neither is this victory imaginary ( as that of m. menzeis ) but real , as the three arguments i have brought make good ; which by way of recapitulation , i set before him in this one argument : the doctrine of the church , and writings of the fathers in the first three ages , can be no ground to protestants for what they teach : first , if the chief reformers disown them . secondly , if most learned protestants accuse them of many errours . thirdly , if their own writings in all controverted tenets be flatly against protestant doctrine : but all this is true from the places produced ; then their writings can be no ground to them . yet protestants will needs make up their religion from the writings of the fathers , as some poets from the centons and broken verses of virgil and homer , the life of christ . they challenge the fathers for their heresie upon a word or two picked out of places wherein they have an orthodox sense : in so many hundred volumes of the fathers writings , that some word or passages seem to favour heresie , what wonder ? gods own word , if we will stick to the naked letter , seeming to favour so many , as we have seen above . they oppose fathers to fathers , and sometimes one to himself , so they are possessed with the spirit of contradiction , that all may turn problematick , and be controverted among them . they cite the scriptures against the fathers , as if their new and giddy headed start-ups , did better understand them , then the most antient and solid divines ; they will at times , by passages of the fathers or scripture , strive to condemn the practice of the church , and decrees of councils : but whoever amongst the fathers did so ? doth any one of the fathers ( with the first reformers ) oppose scripture as understood by them ) to the authority of the church , or to the same scripture , as explained by her ? doth any of them attach the roman church of errour ? to say such a church , so great and glorious in the christian world , did apostatize , and none did remark her apostacy ; is like a general eclipse of the sun , remarked by none . the least errours of particular hereticks , the fathers have so narrowly sifted , so sharply censured , so solidly confuted : and shall we think , they have either not spyed , or spared to censure the corruptions of a whole body and church . but let wise men and greatest shcollars be at variance as they please , about some places both of scriptures and fathers , as surely it will be to the worlds end ; god hath given us both a sure and short way , promised by the prophet , wherein even ignorants and fools cannot err , christ having left us the present catholick church in all ages , as the most faithful depositary of his doctrine , and the infallible visible judge of all that can be controverted in matters of faith. before i end this section , to give you but a scantling with what sincerity and candor hereticks cite the fathers ; this i borrow from m ▪ menzeis in his third paper , where in general , he most confidently says , that whatever the antient apologists , as justin martyr , tertullian , and athenagoras have said for the christian religion , the same protestants may say for their own . whereupon having diligently read over the first of these apologies , which is that of justin martyr ( as any may do in an hour ) i have found him so grosly mistaken in citing this father , that i may justly say , he could not more forfeit his reputation . this i evidence in four chief points asserted by us , and denyed by protestants . the first is free will , for which justin in his apology is so clear , that having said , if men had not in their free will , to fly what is filthy , and choose what is honest , they should be no wise to blame for what ever action ; he will have it a demonstration , that men have freedom to live virtuously , or fall in sin , because we see them by experience to pass from one of these contraries to the other . his words are , ac nisi libero arbitrio & ad turpia fugienda ▪ & ad honesta deligenda facultatem habeat mortalium genus , non fuerit in causâ sive culpâ qualiumcunque demum , factorum : sed enim libero id delectu tum recte per virtutem vivere , cum per peccatum labi , ad hunc demonstramus modum : hominem eundem ad contraria subinde transire videmus . the second is merit of works , in acknowledging a reward to them , his words again are , atque hoc etiamsi paucis persuaferimus , maximum tamen inde feremus lucrum ; nam ut boni agricolae amplam à domino capiemus mercedem . the third is the efficacy of baptism , in cleansing us by water from all former sins , and making us the children of god , ut ne necessitatis & ignorantiae liberi permaneamus , sed ●●●ectus & scientiae filii fiamus , ac remissionem ante commissorum peccatorum consequamur in aquâ . the fourth the real presence , saying of the consecrated bread and wine in so express words ; not as common meat and common drink do we take these things , but even as by the word of god , our saviour jesus incarnate had flesh and blood for our salvation , so we are taught that the eucharist is the flesh and blood of the self same jesus incarnate : his words are ; non enim ut communem panem neque communem potum ista sumimus ; sed quemadmodum per verbum dei , caro factus jesus christus servator noster , & carnem & sanguinem habuit : ad eundem modum , etiam eam in quâ per preces verbi ejus ab ipso profecti gratiae sunt actae , alimoniam , incarnati illius jesu carnem & sanguinem esse edocti sumus . nam apostoli in commentariis à se scriptis , quae evangelia vocantur ita tradiderunt . diverse other things in the same apology i pass , these few things being sufficient , to shew m. menzeis ingenuity , and how he with other hereticks dare cite the fathers , who even most evidently and expresly condemn them . but to close this section ( which citations have made longer then i intended ) with one query i ask m. menzeis where he shall find , so much as in one of the fathers , any point of doctrine taught by the present roman church condemned of heresie : as many protestant tenets they hold against us , are declared heretical by so many , as by s. ireneus l. 1. c. 20. to say with simon magus , that men are not saved by good works ; by s. epiphanius haeres . 8. to say with cerinthus , that children may be saved without baptism . by the same s. epiphanius , to say with the p●o●●ma●s , that god has commanded some impossible things . by s. augustine , l. 20. contr . faust . to pull down altars with the manichees . by the same s. augustine l. 2. contra lit . petil. c. 32. and 34. to say with the donatists , that the baptism of christ , and that of s. john baptist were all one : by s. epiphanius haeres . 75. and s. augustine haeres . 53. to say with the arians , that fasts of the church are not to be observed , nor prayers , nor sacrifice to be used for the dead . by sozomenus l. 5. c. 20. and eusebius l. 7. c. 14. to forbid with julian the apostate , the use of images , and sign of the cross . by s. hierome l. contr . helvidianum . to equal marriage with virginity . by the same s. hierom l. contr . vigilant . to say with vigilantius , saints are not to be invocated , nor their relicks to be honoured . by s. hierome again , l. 3. contr . pelagian . to brag as the pelagians did , that they were sure of their salvation . by s. augustine to say with jovinian that such as are regenerate by baptism , and once received in gods grace and favour cannot finally fall away . by s. hierome contr . vigilant . to say churchmen ought to marry . by s. cyril in epist . ad calo-syrium episc . of madness as well as errour . to say with some in these dayes , christs body did not remain in the eucharist , if it were kept untill the morrow . by s. augustine l. 6. contra julian . c. 2. & 3. and ad bonifac. c. 2. & 4. to say with the pelagians , that the children of the faithful are born holy , and need no regeneration by baptism . by s. augustine l. de haeres . c. 54. to teach with the eunomians , a man is saved by faith only . by s. augustine l. 1. c. 2. & ult . contra maximin . to deny apostolical traditions in the church . by s. cyprian ep. 55. to say with most hereticks , to peters chair and the principal church , infidelity or false doctrine can have access . by irenaeus l. 3. c. 3. to deny all churches round about ought to resort to the roman church , by reason of her more powerful principality ; by all the fathers in the council of calcedon act. 16. to deny that all primacy and chief honour is to be kept for the arch-bishop of old rome . so that the protestant religion is not only void of all solid ground either in the divine scriptures , or holy fathers , but also in most clear and express words is condemned as heretical by both . it being indeed nothing but a new heresie , patcht up of many old condemned errours , joyned to some fresh notions and conceits , flowing from the same spring and spirit of pride and rebellion against all the antient fathers and present pastors of the church ; it s frequent changes , show it is not from god : it s monstrous divisions in so many sects , that it has not the unity of faith : its inconstancy in principles , tenets , form of worship and government , that it is not built upon the rock , and consequently hath no solid foundation or ground . conclusion of all that has been said , wherein also the true grounds of the catholick religion are set down . a little error in the beginning , turns great in the end , sayes the prince of philosophers aristotle in his physicks : which as it is most true in the first principles of all natural sciences , so it is in the grounds of the christian faith. the innumerable by-wayes of sectaries ; their monstrous and manifold divisions from the true church & amongst themselvs ; so many controversies among christians in our days , such wranglings and jars for religion , flow all from one spring , to wit , the mistake of true principles and grounds . and this one errour in the beginning , makes them run themselves in so many , and infinite great in the end . pride and contention ( the two pillars of heresie ) will let them acknowledge no authority of councils or fathers , yield to no evidence of reason , submit to no judge . whence controversies are driven to nothing , but idle and endless contentions and quarrels : councils are called conventiles when they sentence or censure them ; the church is changed into a synagogue ; the fathers forfeit their credit ; places , and passages from scripture , are applyed or misapplyed as they list ; now a jeer , now a jest in handsome language ( which jovial and jeering humours most look upon ) are their common answers to solid reasons : evidence in motive of credibility is mocked at : faiths certainty is changed into probability : a few fundamentals comprehending chief mysteries ( what or how many they cannot tel ) are judg'd only necessary to be believed ; errors in integrals ( as they call them ) which make the greatest part of christian doctrine , are taught to be things indifferent to our belief : in them even the apostles were not in allible , say rainolds and whitaker , with some other protestant divines ; in them the whole church may err , says m. menzeis ; and upon this , as if she had erred , come in all sectaries to reform her : she is old , and her spirits exhausted ; they have the fulness of the spirit : her eyes by age are dimmed , she sees not what is manifest in scripture , they as younger see clear : shee is too superstitious in her religious ceremonies , they as more familiar with god use none : like prophets extraordinarily sent by god , they preach against priests and people : they set out a new gospel of their own , as if they were apostles and evangelists , finding no true scripture before : yea as if they had christs own power , they abandon the antient church as the synagogue , and make up a new one , changing both the priesthood and sacrifice : no more pennances and satisfactions of men to gods justice for their offences , because christ hath satisfied for all : no more fasting , except very seldom , and that only for temporal ends : no good works are left in our power , they are too hard , yea impossible , seeing even our best actions are sins , faith only justifieth , and to believe is an easie task : so the strait path is made plain , and the narrow way broad to them : whil'st others strive to work their salvation with fear and trembling , chastizing their bodies with the apostle s. paul , least they become reprobates ; they live secure , that each of them is one of the elect , making even this an article of his faith. and this they perswade to simple ones with some refined words , uttered in the tune of the sybilles , giving responees from the belly , so far they are fetched with a deep sigh , as if they breathed nothing but zeal : some more learned , relying on the acuteness of their wits , go willingly along with them , not to captivate their understandings , or submit to any visible judg ; 〈◊〉 men of interest comply outwardly with the prevailing party , keeping their own retentions of mind ; and this it is which their preachers for the most part desire of us , that we would but comply in hearing , that is , believe one thing , and force our consciences to profess another . come hear us say they , and you shall not be troubled , we seek no more , and of their most understanding hearers they get no more , as i have often heard from themselves . we are not ( say they ) so proud and arrogant as papists , to call our church and her doctrine infallible , the scripture is only so : by it judg of us and what we teach , as you your selves read and understand : this is the liberty of the children of god , to be tyed to no churches faith , to no councels decrees , to no fathers doctrine : the word as clear in it self , or explained by it self ; the spirit speaking inwardly in our hearts , and every mans natural reason directed by certain rules for the right understanding of both , is the only means god hath left for the conversion of infidels , conviction of hereticks , and setling of every good christian in his belief . o liberty , liberty and freedom of the children of god , from the popes supremacy , councels , infallible authority , the churches jurisdiction in matters of faith and religion , and generally the usurped power of any visible judg. this is m. menzeis , and protestants great principle , ( which as i have demonstratively i hope above proved ) makes all our debates in religion , and takes away all cerrainty in faith. but because to ruine protestant grounds , and give no better in their place , were rather to destroy then edifie , to throw down then to build , and in a controversie of religion , rather to set up atheism , then root out heresie , ( as m. menzeis continually cavilling at our tenets , but never once settling his own , with so much labor hath done ) i therefore do here for a conclusion briefly here set down , and clearly prove solid , the grounds of the catholick faith. the ground then of true faith and religion established by christ and his apostles , not only solid and infallible in it self , but also clear and perspicuous to all , yet special and particular to us in communion with the sea of rome , to which no secta●y , schismatick , or heretick doth or can pretend ; removing all doubts , deciding all controversies , silencing all sowers of false doctrine and errours , keep●ng unity , stopping divisions , quieting mens consciences , instructing the ignorant , setling the unstable , captivating the understanding of the most learned to the obedience of faith , and which the greatest and quickest wits of the christian world , ( that is all the holy fathers ) have ever built their faith upon ; is scripture and apostolical tradition conserved in the church , as delivered expounded by her , both as an infallible propounder and judge . whence if any man here ask the analysie and resolution of our faith ? i answer him in a very few words : we believe such things as are from scripture , and apostolical tradition taught in the church , to be true , because god hath revealed them : the reason again why we believe god did reveal such things is , for that we see evident motives of credibility in this church , and none else , wherein god shows himself author of her doctrine , confirming it with diverse infallible marks , and chiefly miracles , 〈◊〉 which manifestly appear both his subscription and seal . digitus dei hîc est , pharaoh's magicians could not but acknowledge this , exod. the 8. v. 19. seeing only the dust of the earth suddenly by aaron changed into vermin , they cryed out , the hand of god is here : so that there be two things to be remarked in the resolution of divine faith. the first is , god revealing , deus revelans : and the second is , god showing himself authour of such a revelation ; deus proponens se authorem revelationis , say the divines . what god hath revealed , is taught us by his church as an infallible propounder ; that he is author of the revelations made to her , he attests in the motives of credibility , as infallible marks , that it is he who speaks : so all in our faith is infallibly from god , and all infallibly propounded to us . the things revealed by the true and infallible church ; and the revelation by infallible motives , which being clear to all who have eyes , ears , and understanding , make evidently credible , and infallibly certain all and every one point of our religion and faith. now to prove what i have set down , to be the only true solid and infallible grounds , of the true christian and catholick faith. 1. that scripture is this ground , is granted by m. menzeis , and all protestants , so needs no proof as to them . 2. that sole scripture without the declaration and exposition of the church , as an infallible propounder , expounder , and judge , cannot be this ground , is proved at length in my fourth section , and presently you shall see it again . 3 , that apostolical traditions are necessarily joyned with scripture ; is 1. proved from clear scriptures , most expresly commanding us to receive them , 2 thes . 2.13 . therefore brethren stand fast , and hold the traditions which ye have been taught , whether by word , or by epistle . 2 thess . 3.6 . now i command you brethren in the name of our lord jesus christ , that ye withdraw your selves from every brother that walketh disorderly , and not after the traditions which he received . 1 corinth . 11.2 . remember me in all things , and keep the traditions as i delivered them to you . 2. by the authority of the fathers of the first three ages quoted in my sixth section , with that of s. chysostome , s. augustine and others above mentioned . 3. from manifest and demonstrative reason , in some chief points which all christians believe without any express scripture , as i have instanced in persons in the trinity , sacraments in the church , the keeping of sunday , &c. and in many heresies condemned by the church , councils , fathers , yea and protestants themselves , without any clear scripture can be brought against them ▪ as s. augustine avoucheth of the errour of donatists , &c. rests then only to prove that the church's authority as an infallible propounder is necessary , to make all these divine and infallible truths in themselves , contained either in scripture , or delivered by apostolical tradition , both solid and infallible grounds to us . for this i presuppose , 1. from the apostle s. paul , hebrews 11. that without faith it is impossible to please god. 2. from the same apostle , ephes . 4.5 . that there is but one faith , one baptism , one lord jesus christ . 3. from him again , hebr. 10.23 . that we must hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering . from which texts , importing the necessity of faith , the unity of faith , and the steadiness in believing required in divine faith , it doth follow that some infallible means which all may make use of , must be appointed by god to attain to this faith so absolutely necessary to all . for to say god hath commanded us , and that under the pain of eternal damnation , to believe undoubtedly ; and not furnished infallible means to attain to such belief , were to accuse his goodness , providence , and wisdom . and this no christian or rational man will deny , so that all the question that can be moved , is about the infallible means to attain without doubt or wavering to divine faith , which may perswade infallibly all sort of persons , that such things are revealed by god , removing all reasonable doubts that can arise , either concerning gods revelation ( which is the formal object of faith ) or the things he hath revealed ( which makes its material object ) and this means i say again , must not only be solid and infallible objectively and in it self ( as m. menzeis will have the protestant religion and grounds of it ) but also subjectively , and to us ; it being the same thing , as to make a perswasive motive , not to appear , and not to be , according to that maxime , idem est non esse & non apparere . wherefore a ground however infallible in it self , yet not appearing so to us , and known to be such availeth nothing as to our belief . the mathematicians demonstrate , the sun to be many times greater then the earth , and their demonstration no doubt is both certain and evident in it self , yet never shall perswade a country clown that it is greater then his cap , for that no demonstration of this is clear and certain to him . even so is it in the ground of faith , it must be both solid and and infallible in it self , and it must be known to be such by all who prudently rely upon it . this presupposed , to conclude all that has been said , and fully prove both the ground of faith in the catholick roman church , solid as the rock it is built on , and the means for conveying it to us infallible ; i first show against m. menzeis , or rather for him and his conversion , the necessity of an infallible propounder of what ●e must undoubtedly believe ( for if this can be made good , he engageth again to turn papist ) 2. that the true church is this infallible propounder . ● . that the catholick roman church is the only true church . 1. then as to the necessity of an infallible propounder : if no men , no church be infallible in propounding , then holy scripture , and consequently all that is contained in it , is only delivered to us by fallible means , and so no infallible certainty in faith. the consequence is clear , for most infallible truths may be changed , altered , corrupted , and both fallibly and falsly propounded to us , as the first and chief mysteries of the christian religion by hereticks have been . 2. faith comes of hearing , says the apostle then as there be infallible believers and hearers , so must there be infallible teachers , for hearing and teaching are correlatives . 3. no other infallible means is , or can be assigned by protestants to ignorants , yea to all who understand not the original languages , for what is contained in scripture , save only the authority of their pastors and church , but this authority in propounding is not acknowledged infallible by them , then no infallible means is left . 4. there is no less necessity the church be infallible in propounding , then the evangelists in penning , and the apostles in preaching , no disparity can be given , gods word being equally infallible in it self before both , as i● is now . 5. our saviour christ most expresly owns the necessity of an infallible propounder , granting the jews had not sinned in refusing to believe him , if by his works and wonders he had not evidenced himself to be the son of god , and consequently infallible in his doctrine . 6. for this , the gift of miracles is given to the apostles , and left in the church , to show their infallible assistance in propounding . if you answer that was necessary at first , but not now , because it is the same doctrine you teach , which the apostles did propound infallibly : you say nothing , for that it is we doubt of , or rather undoubtedly we deny , that your doctrine is the same . you presently appeal to scripture , but in vain , till first you answer to all that is objected in my fourth section , how ye know infallibly what ye call scripture to be gods word , then the letter you read to be uncorrupted , the sense you give to the genuine , &c. and to all the clear places of scripture i have brought against most of your particular tenets . i do not here ask ye 〈◊〉 prove that to be infallibly gods word which was preached by the apostles , this they did sufficiently themselves : neither that the doctrine of authentick scripture is infallibly true , ( that was also done before there was a protestant in the world ) but coming from those generals ( which make all the answers of your best writers ) we desire ye shew by some infallible sign that your bible is gods pure word ; and your glosses on it conform to the sense and letter . to reply , scripture doth evidence it self by its innate light to be gods word , so that all may sufficiently know it by this , and all be obliged to believe it , is refuted by christ himself , presently telling us his own hearers had not sinned in not receiving it as such , if he had given no external evidence of his infallibility in propounding ; for as i have remarked above , scripture hath no greater efficacy , evidence , or light in our books , then in our blessed saviours own mouth . neither will the majesty of the stile , or the purity of the doctrine do it , both these being as great in the the books of wisdome and ecclesiasticus , which protestants reject , as in the ecclesiastes and canticles , which they receive . besides that the first of these two is imaginary , as to the letter , there being less majesty in the letter of scripture , then in the philosophers and orators writings , as is con●essed by paul. and the second is in question chiefly in protestant bibles , which do not agree with any original or copy that before luther can be found , if we trust their own authours whom i have quoted . lastly , if all councils , all the fathers , all the pastors of the church be fallible , then let protestants bring nothing but scripture against us , ( for we will receive nothing but upon infallible authority ) and all their volumes of controversie shall not come to one line . yea further , could they bring scripture for what they teach ( as they will never be able to do ) yet without an infallible propounder and judg , well might we dispute , but conclude nothing , wrangle , but agree in nothing to the worlds end . for as sole scripture without an infallible church propounding , and explaining it , so a naked church without infallible marks , and a doctrine without infallible motives , prove nothing . secondly , i say the true church is this infallible propounder , on whose authority we must rely . for proof of this , it is to be observed , that in holy scripture there be three foundations or grounds of faith mentioned by the apostle s. paul. the 1. is our blessed saviour christ , 1 cor. 3.11 . another foundation no man can lay then that is laid , which is jesus christ . the 2. is the apostles and prophets , ephes . 2.29 . built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets . the 3. the church , 1 tim. 3. the house of god , which is the church of the living god , the pillar and ground of truth . from which clear places of scripture , i remark , 1. the foundation of faith is ever a living , visible , and speaking ground , to wit , christ , the apostles , prophets , and church , the dead letter of scripture being no where called this ground . 2. that these three grounds of faith , both in the old and new law , properly speaking make but one , according to the same apostle , for another foundation no man can lay , sayes he , beside christ jesus . so that the prophets , apostles , and church must not be thought different foundations from christ , all their vertue in upholding faith , and veracity in propounding faith ( whence they are called the foundation and ground of it ) coming from the particular assistance of his spirit , strengthening , inspiring , and directing them . hence also is their infallibility , for the foundation of christ stands sure , says the apostle , 2 tim. 2.19 . and consequently is altogether infallible . 3. that the church here called a ground which supporteth our faith , is not to be said the only diffusive body of all true believers , but more the representative church in her chief pastors , as the prophets and apostles in old . wherefore some few catholick authors so often objected , as holding the canons and decrees of councils only infallible , when they are generally received by the whole church ; in my opinion are highly mistaken , and surely to be understood ( if any in express terms speaks so ) of councils not wholly oecumenical , or not lawfully convocated , and knownly approved by the pope , or whereof some rational doubt may be made in things essentially required ; in which cases i grant the general belief of the church could best warrant the infallibility of their decrees . otherwise a few particular persons might cope with general councels , as luther and his adherents at first , vendicating to himself the negative voice , as if he had been high bishop in the whole church ; which were to take away all possible means of preserving unity in faith , yea to foment all schisms and divisions , every one pretending the whole church holds no such doctrine ; whil'st he who is a member dissents . so that such doctors if they should allow no obligation in receiving the decrees of the representative church , to the which they do and must submit even this their sentence , could neither be thought catholicks or rational men . but however some few speak or think , god did promise us an infallible church , isa . 2. v. 2 , 3. wherein he should teach us his ways , and judge amongst the nations himself , not personally , for he never went out of jewry , but by her pastors . he has establish'd this infallible church , in st. matth. 16. v. 19. upon the rock . christ hath commanded us to hear her , in st. matth. 18. v. 17. and the persons we should hear in this church , as well as the end wherefore we would hear them , and rest upon their authority , is clearly set down in these words , 4. ephes . 11. he gave some apostles , some prophets , some evangelists , some pastors and teachers , for perfecting of the saints , for the work of the ministry , till we all come in the union of faith , that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of doctrine , &c. from all which places of scripture , it is demonstratively manifest , that as the true church is infallible , and we bound to hear her , yea and to rely upon her authority , as the pillar and ground of our faith ; so is it most evidently clear , that as she speaketh only to us infallibly by the voice of her pastors and teachers united , it is them we should hear , seeing god in her , ( not personally as i have said , but by them ) both judgeth and teacheth , as the infallible propounders of his divine truths ( with the prophets and apostles in old ) and the infallible judges of our controversies and debates . 2. the same is proven from the unanimous consent of the fathers , quoted at length in my third section , for the infallibility both of the church and councils ; and may be confirmed even by the confession of many rational and moderate protestants , who receive the scripture , and consequently all , and every point contained in it , as the word of god , upon the sole authority of the church ; as m. whitaker against stapleton , p. 1. c. 11. i deny not but the churches tradition is the argument whereby to convince , what books are canonical and what not . m. fulk in his answer to a counterfeit catholick ; the church hath judgment to discern the word of god from the writings of men. m. covel in his defence of hooker , doubtless it is a tolerable opinion of the church of rome , to affirm , that the scriptures are holy in themselves , but so esteemed of us for the authority of the church . and m. hooker in his ecclesiastical policy , we all know that the first outward motive leading men so to esteem of scripture , is the authority of the church . and as these own her authority in propounding the scripture books , so other protestants in resolving all doubts , and deciding all debates ; as bancroft lord archbishop of canterbury , in his sermon on the 8. of february 1588. god , says he , hath bound himself to his church of purpose , that men by her direction might in matters of doubt be relieved , he speakes of the representative church , which onely directeth . master field in the epistle to his treatise of the church ; seeing the controversies of religion are grown in number so many , and in nature so intricate , that few have time and leasure , fewer strength of understanding to examine them ; what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence , but diligently to search out , which among all the societies of men in the world , is that blessed company of holy ones , that houshold of faith , that spouse of christ , and church of the living god , the pillar and ground of truth , that so they may imbrace her communion , follow her doctrine , and rest in her judgement ? here again the representative church both judging and teaching . m. hooker in the preface of his books of ecclesiastical policy : we are right sure of this , that nature , scripture , and experience have taught the world to seek for the ending of contentions , by submitting it self to some judicial and definitive sentence , whereunto neither part that contendeth , may under any pretence refuse to submit . and what is this but a general council ? m. bilson in his perpetual government is clear for it ; to have no judge , sayes he , for the ending of ecclesiastical contentions were the utter subversion of all peace . synods are surest means to decide doubts . sr. edwin sands in his relation of the religion used in the west parts of the world. the protestants are as severed and scattered troops , each drawing a diverse way without any means to take up their controversies , &c. no ordinary way to assemble a general council of their part , which is the only hope remaining ever to aswage their contentions . 3. reason evinceth it : the true church is the school of infallible and divine truths , then she must have infallible masters and propounders . a fallible church is most properly named by a learned writer , a spiritual cheat ; it may well be called the ground of opinion , doubt and despair , but not of infallible and divine faith. if the sheep hearing the voice of their pastors , and following them be misled , who shall be their sure guide ? and if all the fathers , and doctors of the church together assembled , may mistake either the uncorrupted letter , or true sense of scripture ; who i pray you can assure himself he takes it aright ? no infallibility in matte●● of faith and religion is left upon earth ; 〈◊〉 the high bishop and chief pastors of the church unanimously teaching and propounding , cannot err ; it were more then madness any man should say the contrary , and yet hold himself infallibly secure of what he believes . would a protestant be but once at the pains to speak to an infidel for his conversion to the true church , calling all her pastors , even assembled in a council fallible : i should willingly hear what he could so much as say in general for protestancy , yea or for the christian religion . no doubt he should first speak of one true god , then of christ and faith in him , as necessary to salvation , telling his proselyte , how out of his goodness and mercy towards us , he had made himself man , and died upon the cross for our sins ; yet afterwards had risen again , and by his miracles , showen both his civinity and power , and by these strange works and wonders , having established his church , he had delivered his will and doctrine to her in his written word , called the holy scripture . upon this , the infidel no little astonished at such a discourse , surely should ask him some ground for it , and how he could be perswaded it were true ? here i imagine the bible is produced , as the word of god , and sole ground of faith : but who assures me of this , says the infidel ? it was attested by many miracles which christ and the apostles did work , who first pre●●hed it , answers the protestant , they were holy men , chosen by our saviour christ , for the conversion of the world : they did teach his word infallibly ; they did set it down in writing , confirmed it with wonders , and left it to the church . how long ago replies the infidel ? nigh 1700. years answers again the protestant . one question more , says the infidel ; have you any infallible witness in your church , or any infallible external motive , that this is the same word of god that was preached by the apostles , and delivered by christ ; or that in confirmation of it , ever any miracle was wrought ? the first needs none , says the protestant , it is clear to all well disposed persons ; turn protestant and you will evidently see it to be the word of god ; and the second is sufficiently attested in it . presently the infidel having received further instruction in most points of protestancy , and made more earnest to see how all that has been taught him , is true ; desires he may have for a time the bible , and diligently perusing it , finds some things in the historical books , look like fables , many more in the prophets he doth not understand , many seeming contradictions betwixt the two testaments , many points he was taught by his protestant master , not in scripture at all , yea many things clearly against it . of all which he asks his master a diligent account ; and first whether at present there be no man , or company of men can resolve him infallibly of all these doubts ? none , concludes the protestant but scripture it self , for since the apostles there is in the church no judg , no propounder infallible . if so , sir , you conclude nothing with me , says the infidel , but here i end with you ; for the book you ground all you have said upon , as if it were clear and infallible to me , like the first principles in our philosophers schools , is so deeply obscure , and highly above the reach of reason , that without some powerful motive and inducement , no reasonable man can believe it . and since you grant it was at first propounded with infallible motives which now have ceased , it seems god would have it believed no more . for who can prudently believe things not clear in themselves , or at least not so to us , without some infallible propunder evidencing by supernatural motives ( as miracles ) that such a doctrine is from god ? neither can a protestant standing to his principles say any more ; whence no conversion of infidels amongst them . but no end of their cavelling with us . they here urge , 1. suppose the true church were infallible in her pastors assembled in a council ; yet all we bring in proof of this , may be retorted against our private teachers , who are not infallible in propounding . but to this it is easily answered , that as god most infallibly , both by his general providence , and particular promise directs , rules , and governs his church ; so she by vertue of his special assistance oversees infallibly her private persons , in order to our certainty in faith. for in the holy hierarchy of the church , god hath placed watchmen most vigilant over their flocks , who suffer them not to be misled : they have discovered the very least errors , sowen in corners , and branded their authors as false teachers . wherefore as unity in belief is the form and soul of that great body of the catholick or universal church , so whatever doctrine is commonly taught and received in her without any contradiction from her pastors , is sufficiently known to be infallible . 2. they object there is no infallible propounder of this article of our faith ; the church is infallible , answer , yes , 1. god shows himself the propounder of this in the markes of the church , which we shall presently see . 2. as our saviour christ calling himself the son of god , and working miracles , did sufficiently , yea , infallibly evidence to the jews , that it was true what he said : so the church calling her self infallible , and working the like miracles in all ages , doth infallibly evidence to the world that it is true what she says , otherwise it would follow that god did employ his omnipotency and power to work miracles in favour of an impostor , thus cheating the world with a lye . 3. therefore i say , the catholick roman church , is the only true church , in which the doctrine of christ is infallibly propounded , and certainty in faith and salvation to be found . this point is of highest concern according to the fathers ; for , it is only the catholick church , says lactantius , l. 4. that hath the true worship and service of god : that is , the well-spring of truth , the dwelling place of faith , the temple of god , into which , whosoever entereth not , and from which , whosoever departeth , is without all hope of life and salvation . whosoever is divided from her , says s. augustine in his epistle , 152. how laudable soever he seems to himself to live , for this only crime , that he is separated from the unity of christ , he shall be excluded from life , and the wrath of god shall remain upon him . and again in his 50. epistle , as a member cut off wants the spirit of life , so a man separated from the body of christ , cannot have the spirit of justice , &c. they have not the holy ghost who are out of the church . s. cyprian de unitat. eccl. the spouse of christ cannot be defiled with adultery , whosoever divided from this church cleaveth to the adulteress , he is separated from the promises of the church , he cannot have god for his father , who hath not the church to his mother . s. irenaeus l. 3. c. 40. in the church god hath constituted apostles , prophets , doctors , and all the rest of the operation of the spirit , whereof those are not partakers who repare not unto the church ; where the church is , there is the spirit of god. vincentius lyrinensis , contr . haeres . c. 1. & 2. says , that he having very often most diligently inquired of many holy and learned men , how he might certainly distinguish the true catholick faith from all heresies , it was ever answered him by the law of god , and the tradition of the church , divinae legis authoritate & catholicae ecclesiae traditione . then making to himself the common objection of protestants , seeing the rule of scripture is perfect , what necessity of joyning to it the tradition of the church ? he presently answers , because all take not scripture one way , and in the same sense , because of its deepness . all the fathers run upon this , out of the catholick church , no true religion , no divine faith , no infallible guide , no sure way to salvation , no hope of heaven , no means to attain eternal happiness and life . wherefore god by his divine appointment , order , and decree having tyed us , and that under no less pain then the damnarion of our souls , to live in the unity and communion of this church , in which only he has placed the chair of his doctrine , and channels of his graces . i presuppose , 1. this church may be easily known , and that by clear marks in all ages , and by all , she being so amply great , and eminently high , that the prophet isa . ch. 2. calls her , the mountain of the lords house established in the top of mountains , and exalted above the hills , to which all nations should flow 2. tat those marks be the same now , which did evidence her in christs , and in the apostles time ; for all things are best conserved by the same means by which they received their being , says the phylosophers , conservatio continuata productio . 3. that whatever church is found to have these marks , should be undoubtedly acknowledged for the true one , otherwise they could not have proved her the true church at first . this presupposed , that the catholick roman church is the only true church , i most evidently prove in short ( for this hath been often done in large volumns ) and that by a very few undoubted signes , and as it were most legible characters of the primitive church in the time of the apostles , paralelling the one with the other . three things are chiefly remarkable in the apostles , and church under them . 1. their sanctity and holiness of life . 2. the great conversion of infidels wrought by them . 3. their manifold and wonderful miracles . these be the marks of their mission , by which they show themselves to be the servants of god , to be sent by god , and that god by his vertue and power concurreth and cooperateth with them . their holy , humble , poor , and austere life , makes them like to their master christ , and fit instruments for the great employment they are going about : miracles make their credential letters , and witness the fulness of their power ; conversions are the end of their embassy , which as it was to last till all the nations of the earth were brought to the unity of faith , and bosome of the church , according to that promise of christ , there shall be one shepherd , and one fold , so their true successors are constantly known by the same signs in all ages , as the undoubted marks and badge of the apostles . i begin at miracles , which i call the apostles credentials , and make the chief infallible mark of the true church , and all infallibly credible which is taught in her , as the great seal god sets to her doctrine . in the first age , the miracles of the apostles and disciples are set down in holy scripture , so need no other testimony . in the second age , justin martyr quaest . 28. reporteth many wrought by the bodies , and at the sepulchers of martyrs , and irenaeus , l. 2. c. 58. innumerable others for the conversion of the gentiles . in the third age many most great ones are wrought by s. gregory sirnamed thaumaturge , or worker of miracles , related by s. gregory nissen in his life , and s. basil de sp. sanct. c. 29. divers whereof by the sign of the cross . s. cyprian serm . de laps . relates with many others , three very strange miracles in this age , confirming the real presence . in the fourth age , a dead body is restored to life by the holy cross , when it was first found by the empress helena , as witness ruffinus , nicephorus and others . many other miracles are wroughe by reliques , witnessed by s. chrysostome , orat . contr . gentes , by holy water attested by s. epiphanius , haer . 30. by adoration of christ in the sacrament ; witness s. gregory nazianzen orat . 11 ▪ by prayer to our lady says the same authour , in s. cyprian , by the merits of martyrs , as relateth s. ambrose serm. 21. in the fifth age , s. augustine l. 22. de civit . c. 8. many by the reliques of s. stephen , and an house dispossessed of devils by saying of mass , s. chrysostome says , by the sign of the holy cross . eusebius cremon . writes , s. hierome being dead , the blind , deaf , dumb , and sick were cured by touching and kissing his corps . in the sixth age , miracles are wrought to confirm the sacrifice of the mass , witness s. gregory l. 4. dial . c. 57. by the reliques of s. martin , as is related by s. gregory of tours , de miracul . s. martini l. 1. c. 11. two others says s. gregory , l. 3. dial . c. 3. by john the first , and agapitus , both popes . in the seventh age , we have miracles in defence of vowed virginity , related by sigibert , an . 670. wrought by reliques , in bede , l. 5. c. 11. by the images of s. anastasius , at the very sight whereof ●evils fled , and diseases were cured , in act . 2. synod . nicen. in the eighth age , divers miracles are wrought at the translation of s. augustines reliques from sardinia to ticinum , by luitprand king of the long●bards , after he had redeemed it with a great sum of money from the sarazens , witness oldardus ep. ad carol . magn. a crucifix in the city of berith , stabbed by the jews , bleedeth , and the blood cureth all diseases , witness crantius with the magdeburgians cen. 8. in the same age pope leo the third , having his tongue cut , and his eyes pulled out by the pagans , had them both restored by the intercession of s. peter , as it is recorded by anastasius , baronius , and many others . in the ninth age , innumerable miracles are done at the tomb of s. james , and by a picture of s. john baptist , related by curopalates , baronius , and other most approved authors , as also most famous miracles of three popes , stephen the fifth , paschalis the first , and formosus . in the tenth age by s. romuald , and s. dunstan to be seen in surius , baronius , &c. by touching s. peters chains in sigibert , an . 965. in the approbation of the single life of priests , and the exemplary punishment of them who opposed it ; see for this matthew of westminster , an . 975. and osbert in the life of s. dunstan . in the eleventh age , by three popes , leo the 9. victor the 2. and gregory the 7. the authors you have in baronius , who with him confirm them . by s. edward king of england , for which see alredus in his life ; by s. anselme bishop , s. odilo abbot , s. chunegunde virgine , related by surius and other writers of their lives . in the twelfth age , the miracles of s. malachy , apostle of ireland , are recounted by s. bernard ( whom even calvin calls a holy man ) one whereof confirmeth extreme unction , and another the real presence . many likewise are to be seen in the life of s. bernard himself , and one most notable in confirmation of the whole catholick roman faith. in the thirteenth age , we have the many famous miracles of s. dominic , s. francis of assisium , s. antony of padua , s. lovis of france , s. celestine pope , and s. clare witnessed by s. antonine , s. bonaventure , petrus cardin. camerasc . baronius and others , all most renowned writers . in the fourteenth age , the miracles of s. nicholas tolentine , s. roch , s. katherin of siena , are chronicled by s. antonine , surius , baronius , &c. in the fifteenth age , s. antonine 3. par . hist . tit . 23. testifieth thirty eight dead persons to have been restored to life , by the prayers and merits of s. vincent . many sick are also cured by the intercession of our blessed lady , at her house in loreto , and the turkish army terrified by miracles from sacking it , as reports tursellin l. 2. hist . laur . in the sixteenth age , many great miracles done by s. francis of paula , s. ignatius of loyola , and s. terese are authentickly proved in the process of canonization , and the authours of their lives . in the same age , s. francis xavier , called commonly the apostle of japonie , and the first jesuit sent to the indies , raiseth four from death , and worketh innumerable other miracles attested by the viceroys , governours , prelates , pastors , and people of those countries , in which it is reported he baptized about twelve hundred thousand souls with his own hand . some moderate protestan●● even honour his memory , and make mention of his admirable conversions ; and if others should deny his miracles , we might come to that s. augustine calls the greatest of all , to wit , that he should have converted so many , and wrought none . many thousand more miracles are recorded in the writings of the fathers in all ages , in the monuments of the church , yea , and in the histories of each particular christian nation ; as in france , that famous apparition of our saviour christ in the consecrate host at paris , in the time of king lovys the 9. to which were eye witnesses , most inhabitants of that great city : in spain , that miraculous cross placed on the altar by an angel , at the conversion of a king of the moors , desirous to hear mass , which is kept in the town of caravaca , and worketh miracles to this day . in italy , the wonderful translation of that holy house wherein our blessed saviour lived at nazareth , to loreto , at which so many miracles have been wrought by the intercession of our lady , and attested by so great gifts and offerings , that of a mean cottage , it is now the richest chappel in the world. in flanders , the miraculous cures at our ladies chappels of hall and sichem , written in two books , by that famous and learned authour justus lipsius , and of which he giveth this testimony in his first chapter ; behold , things done in the eyes of us all , behol● them celebrated with the concourse , applause , fruit and benefit of whole countreys ; what truth can there be in humane affairs , if no credit be given to these things ? in poland , that most notorious miracle of a man raised to life after he had been seven years dead , and brought before the king sitting in justice , to witness he had sold such a piece of land to the church . in england we have from their best authors , how in a publick assembly the opposers of a single life in priests are all smothered under the ruines of the room , only s. dunstan and those who with him defended it , being miraculously preserved ; where also the many miracles of s. winefride , virgin , to the great good and constant cure of the multitude having recourse to her chppel and fountain , continue even in our days . in scotland , a miracle makes the armes of one of our chief cities , others of s. mungo , s. fiaker , s. margaret , &c. are famous in our chronicles , yea the ever continued miracles in many places consecrated in old time to god and his saints , make the people as yet to frequent the very rubbish and ruines of our chappels . now to reflect a little upon what i have said . 1. the miracles i here speak of , are for the most part the same , or like to those which christ and his apostles did 〈◊〉 as the suddain cure of naturally incurable diseases , the raising of the dead , the casting out of devils , &c. 2. they have been done in all ages , in the catholick roman church , and in no other . 3. the workers of them , are popes , bishops , priests , eremits , monks , fryars , jesuits , and others , all knowingly opposers of protestancy ; all living in communion with the sea of rome . 4. they are witnessed by the most learned , judicious , and vertuous witnesses of the christian world , yea are so notoriously evident , that hereticks cannot but avouch them , with the centurists of magdeburg and others . 5. many of them are not only personal miracles , witnessing the holiness of the person that worketh them ( as these which serve for the cononization of our saints ) but also dogmatical , confirming our doctrine against protestants , as being wrought by reliques and invocation of saints ; the sign of the holy cross , holy water , saying of mass , exorcisms , pilgrimages to holy chappels of our blessed lady and other saints ; by real apparitions of our saviour christ in form of a man in the consecrate host , &c. what then can protestants answer with any show of probability , to this first mark of the catholick roman church ? shall they grant a false religion to have so many miracles , and theirs which is the true , to have none ? or shall christs promise in s. john ch. 14. made to faithfull believers prove false , that protestancy may at least seem to be true ? they will rather deny these miracles which i have brought , and all others since the apostles , for their negative faith , engageth them ever to a strong denial , as all their new religion is but a denying of most antient and known christian truths ; yet shall any man upon their bold denyal distrust such a croud of so famous witnesses , and writers ? shall they say many miracles have been fained ? so some gospels ; but what maketh that more against these of the catholick roman church , then those of christ and his apostles ? what has not been counterfeited ? gold , silver , jewels , wines ; doth it follow there be none true , or that no man can distinguish things sophisticated from pure and real ? could not s. justin , s. irenaeus , s. chrysostome , s. basile , and s. augustine , relating so many done by reliques , and invocation of saints , judge of true ones ? or were s. athanasius , and s. hierom , relating the miracles of s. anthonie , s. gregory of nisse , and s. basile , those of s. gregory thaumaturgus , severus sulpitius , and s. gregory of tours , those of s. martin , theodoret , those of s. nicolas , s. gregory the great , those of s. bennet , s. bonaventure , those of s. francis , so easily deceived ? shall they deny the workers of such miracles , to have been members of the roman church , or them to have been wrought in confirmation of the present romish faith ? but it is by saying of mass , making the sign of the cross , invocating of saints , honouring of reliques , they have been done . shall they have recourse in fine to the false miracles of infidels , hereticks , magicians , the antichrist or devil ? so did the arians , eunomians , and other hereticks , as reports s. ambrose in his sermon of s. gervase and protase , s. hierome against vigilantius , and victor uticensis in his second book of the persecution of the wandales , and is the same the jews did say to christ , but more then either men or devils can do . all those things which hereticks , or infidels have done , or that antichrist shall do , being but like these of pharaoh's magicians , little curious trifles of a short lasting , and that may proceed from natural causes : but so are not the miracles i speak of , for they are the very same with those of christ and his apostles ; they are attested by the holy fathers and doctors of the church , who could best judge of true and real ones ; and as they have been wrought in the catholick roman church , and in her only in all ages , so in every age have they brought in some nation of infidels to the bosome of the same church . this is the second thing remarkable in the apostles , and no less conspicuous in the catholick roman church . whosoever then desires to see this second mark of the true church verified in the roman church ▪ let him but cast an eye over all the nations which were ever converted from infidelity to christianity since the apostles , and then but take a view in their respective histories and records , who were their apostles ? out of which church they were sent , and to which church they did at first bring in their proselytes and converts . and he shall find all this great work to have been done by no other then popes , bishops , priests , and religious men , all living in communion with the roman church , all acknowledging her headship over other churches , all teaching her doctrine , all submitting to her authority , and all propagating her faith. see for this in general , the theater of the conversion of all nations , written by mermannius , and the history of the church by baronius , and spondanus , ●ll in particular , the records of each nation ; yea and the magdeburgian centurists , though protestants : it being so notoriously evident , that even our adversaries cannot deny it , and if they should , the very walls of churches , chappels , monasteries , adorned with crosses , statues , images , and other marks of the present roman religion , might sufficiently prove it against them . pope alexander the 1. is glorious for the conversion of so many of the roman senators and nobles : pope sylvester , for that of the first christian emperour constantine the great , the bulgarians are converted by pope nicolas the 1. the bohemians by stephen the 7. norway by adrian the 4. the pomeranians by nicolas the 3. all popes . s. elutherius pope , sends to this our island two of his clergy , who convert king lucius and his subjects ; scotland ows its conversion to pope victor by his envoys and legates ; ireland to pope celestine , who sent thither s. patrick , england to s. augustine sent by s. gregory the great : clovis first christian king of france is converted by s. rhemigius bishop of rhemes ; the franconians by s. william ; the thuringians , hassits , and a great part of germany , by s. boniface ; the flemins by eligius ; the danes and swedes by ansgratius ; the sclavonians and hungarians by the two adelberts ; the polonians by aegidius , tusculanus sent by pope john the 13. run thus through all the other kingdomes and provinces of the christian world , you shall constantly find the same : and this as in all former ages , so in ours , witness the conversions of the japonians , indians , brasilians , mexicans , peruans , canadas , algonquins , and many other savage nations in america , the coasts of afric , and remotest corners of the earth , where the catholick roman church ever like to her self in the primitive times , and her pastors and preachers to the apostles , continue their labours to this day , with such success by the blessings of god , that they have converted ten to the christian faith , for one protestants have perverted . but what kingdom , province , or town did ever protestancy enter in , which it did not find catholick ? never so many sects of hereticks , yet not one goes to convert infidels , all their business is with papists , and all their forces employed against the roman church , a clear demonstration she is the only true church , so generally opposed by them all . but whatever they can do is in vain , shee being built on the rock , against which all the powers of hell shall not prevail . their disputes serve for n●thing but to clear her doctrine , their controversies but to confirm her faith , their persecutions but to crown her sufferings , their unchristian maxims against the evangelical counsels of voluntary poverty , vowed chastity , and a retired , humble , devote , austere , and obedient life , but to make more gloriously appear , the incomparable sanctity , holiness , and vertues of her saints . and this is the third thing remarkable in the apostles and primitive christians , which in all following ages hath so gloriously shined in the catholick roman church , their examplary holiness in following christ by renouncing to the world , living chast , contemning both riches and pleasures , their holy hatred of themselves , the hardship of their travels , and labours for the conversion of others , their continual fasting , and frequent prayer . this mark of the churches sanctity is set down in the creed , i believe the holy catholick church ; it is confirmed by authority of scripture , s. paul in the beginning of all his epistles almost , calling the churches to which he writes , holy , as in that to the romans , corinthians , ephesians , philippians , and colossians , as s. peter calls the church generally the holy nation , it is also visible to all ; as the goodness of a tree is seen by the fruit , so the holiness of the church , by her works . now let us see in what church the greatest lights of the christian religion have shined ? what church hath most monuments of christian piety ? in what church the examples of christ and his apostles , have been most narrowly followed ? who have built most glorious and goodly edifices of churches to the honour and for the service of god ; who so many monasteries to harbour his more devoted servants ; who so many hospitals for the poor ? who best evidenced true faith by good works ? who have most put in practice all the hardest maxims of the gospel ? who taken greatest pains for the salvation of souls ? who show'n greatest love towards god , and greatest charity to their neighbour ? whether papists giving so liberally to god and his church , or protestants taking back what they had given ? by their fruits ye shall know them , says our saviour christ , our actions give testimony of our faith. the holy fathers writing so many lives of our saints , witness enough their unparallel'd piety , yea and god himself working so many miracles by them . how many princes and monarches in the catholick roman church , have laid down their crowns at the foot of the cross , have quitted kingdoms , renounced pleasures , forsaken the world , taking themselves to a poor , humble , mortified , and austere life ? how many thousands , yea millions of eremits , monks , and other religious persons , men and women have totally consecrated their lives to the service of god ? no age , no order , no degree of persons in this church wanteth most eminent men in sanctity and holiness : above 30. popes have been all most glorious martyrs , besides many more saints , as our gregories , leo's , celestines , &c. our holy bishops are in number above the stars of the firmament , and our priests and religious like the sand of the sea : s. henry emperour , s. lovis k. of france , s. edward king of england , s. malcolme and s. david kings of scotland , with s. helena mother to constantine the great , s. margaret , s. cunegund , s. elizabeth , and many others all kings and queens , have shown the sanctity of our monarchs . see the holy court , and history of the church for the holiness of so many amongst the nobility and gentry , and the lives of our saints , and writings of the fathers , for the eminent virtues of innumerable ●f others , both amongst the gentry and commons . s. chrysostome , s. ambrose , s. augustine , s. bernard , and other holy fathers having honoured their memory , and festival days with most eloquent sermons in their praise , as god by his omnipotency and power , hath sealed their sanctity with undoubted miracles , both in their lives , and in their deaths . what can all the sectaries which have ever been , shown like to this , or what can they say against it ? shall it be that all are not saints even amongst our most austere religious men ? but neither were all saints amongst the apostles ; and the primitive church even in their time wanted not its scandals , which showeth it was not only composed of the elect : the total separation of the good from the bad , is not the work of men now , but of the angels at the last day ; till then as the tares grow up in the best fields of corn , so shall there be ever many wicked and scandalous in the true church . but out of it , no saints , no safety for sinners , no sacraments that sanctifie , no means of reconciliation with god. i insist not here any further on the other marks of the true church , as their antiquity , universality , unity , and the very name of catholick , which are to be found at length verified of the roman church , in many whole and large volumes . no other church having e●er been generally called by this name , or known under it , but all by their private denominations , as the arians , pelagians , eutychians , macedonians , &c. in old ; so the lutherians and calvinists now . and if we call this catholick or universal church also the roman church , we speak with s. paul calling the catholick faith spread through the whole world , theirs . no other church having constantly appeared visible in her pastors and people , by a continued succession from the apostles , which held s. augustine in her , tenet me in ecclesiâ , says he , successie facerdotum , i am holden in the church by the succession of priests , then he reckons out the only high priests and bishops of rome as the lawful successors of s. peter , as in his 162. epistle , he says , in the roman church has ever been the authority of the apostolick sea , in ecclesiâ romanâ semper apostolicae cathedrae viguit authoritas . no other having unity in faith , or the means to preserve it by general councils , which have all been holden in her . no other , and specially the protestant church , having either universality or antiquity , as is clear from their late rise , and little extent . whatever protestants and other sectaries sophistically or subtilly object against all this , is but weak , and should stumble none , many stronger objections , atheists , infidels , and hereticks have made against god , our saviour christ , and the holy scripture . the first principles most clear by the light of nature , suffer their objections , whence the scepticks amongst philosophers , as the socinians amongst hereticks , those admitting of nothing as unquestionably clear , and these as infallibly true . wherefore to conclude all , i have said : the catholick roman church being so gloriously marked , so generally attested , and so notoriously known to be the true church established by christ and his apostles , ever conspicuous and visible , ever working miracles , converting infidels , making saints ; ever holding councils , deciding controversies , keeping unity , opposing hereticks , and maintaining true faith upon solid and infallible grounds , having so clear testimony from the fathers , from scripture , from god ; having charisma veritatis certum , the gift and grace of certain and infallible truth , says s. irenaeus ; origines firmas , sure beginnings saith tertullian , veritatem undequaque munitam , verity solidly grounded and guarded , says s. epiphani●s , haeres . 55. authoritatem stabilissimam , most solid and constant authority , says s. augustine , ep. ●8 . may 〈◊〉 not say justly with our countryman richard of s. victor , l. 1. de trinit . c. 2. si error est quem credimus à te decepti sumus . if it be error we do believe ( in this church , and upon her authority ) it is thou ( o god ) who hath deceived us , for with such signs this doctrine is confirmed , that it can be from no other but thee . let the impartial reader here compare both protestant grounds and doctrine with ours , and see , after all their objections and cavils , what they bring for their new , doubtful , and inconstant opinions , against our old infallible and constant faith : what against our just claim , our clear right , our long and uninterrupted possession . they come in with the scripture in hand , as the fundamental law against which there can be no prescription , but what scripture , i pray you , save that they have wrested from us ? olim possideo , prior possideo , says tertullian , it was first delivered to us , we have it of old , and we conserve it whole and intire . but not so protestants ; the many books they reject shows it is but like a torn bond in their hands , blotted in as many places , as there be things put in of new , or others rased out in their bibles . and then as they bring it , it is altogether forceless , and can make no security as a rent charter without subscription , witness , or seal : gods subsciption would be seen and acknowledged if it were presented by them , as at first by the apostles with supernatural 〈…〉 motives : witnesses , if they could show it handed down from age to age by infallible propounders ; his-seal in miracles . but the protestant church granting her self to be fallible , and being destitute both of infallible motives of credibility and miracles , can be no sure propounder of gods word , neither can it as propounded by her , be any sure ground to us . yea , examine well all the principles protestants build their pretended reformation upon , and you shall find them all mearly whimsecal , paradoxal ▪ and improbable . for what probability can there be , 1. of what they say against us , that the popish church ( as they call it ) which they grant to be most antient , should have continued so long , and ever possessed the greatest part of the christian world holding councils , condemning heresies , converting infidels , working miracles , and that the protestant church which they will have to be the catholick or universal , all this time was no where to be found , never once made mention of by any author ; without councils , statutes , or laws published to the world ; never converting one kingdom , opposing one heresie , having one writer of note witnessing her faith and doctrine , her doings or sufferings , her pastors or people : that the antient congregation diffused through the whole world , should be heretical , and the new one in some few corners be orthodox : that corruption of doctrine did enter so insensibly into the roman church , that no councils , no fathers did see or censure it , who have observed many lesser things in private men ; that all the fathers i have quoted in my 6. section , should have unanimously holden ever since the apostles , what protestants call popish errors , or that so many learned men in the roman church , who have dived into the very depth of most abstract sciences , could not see before luther , what in scripture was clear . 2. what probability for what they vent of their first apostles and reformers ? that god did send one apostate friar ( who in the monastery as he confesseth lived so mortified , chast , and devote , but quitting it , is so hurried with his passions of lust , and stings of conscience even for this his new doctrine , as may be seen in the preface of his works in latine , and his table conferences ) without any visible mark of his mission , to reform both his word and church , in opposition to all her ordinary pastors at that time : that the church before him ( i mean luther ) as he himself glories , should have been destitute of the true letter and sense of scripture , of true worship , true form of government , &c. that notwithstanding so many solemn promises made by god , the word should not depart out of the mouths of pastors , nor the true church be so much as obscured , yet that christ should have suffered the light of the gospel to be under a bushel , and the cuhrch invisible for more then a thousand years : that his reformation should be the work of god , and the world ever worse since it : that protestancy should bring back true faith , which is divided into so many heresies , and has caused so many troubles , divisions and schisms . 3. what show of probability or solidity in protestant grounds ? that the ground of faith ( which they will have to be sole scripture as every one reads , and understands ) should support all the heresies in the world : that this ground given us for keeping of unity , should make all our divisions in religion : to deny the authority and tradition of the church infallible , and yet take scripture on it ; that the whole representative church in a general council is not infallible in its decrees , and yet private men reading scripture are infallible in what they believe : that what was at the margent in their first bibles , would be now put in the text : that pure scripture should be a cleer ground for protestancy , and not one point specifical , or special to it , to be found in scripture in express words : in fine , that protestants should have the pure word , and rely on the originals ; their best writers granting they have not found so much as an authentick copy any where . if you will see what probability at last they have either for their doctrine or church , consider amongst protestants ( with the author of a late answer in writ ) faith without unity , a body without united members , a law without a judg , a church without an altar , religion without a sacrifice , sacraments that do not sanctifie , divine service without religious ceremonies , preachers without a call , doctrine without infallibility , belief without a ground ; commands impossible to be kept , exhortation to what is not in our power , reward without merit , reprobation without demerit , sin punished where there is no free will , new apostles without mission or miracles , reformation without authority , the private spirit against the whole church , new lights against old revealed verities , single mens opinions against the common consent of the fathers , scripture received or rejected upon the catalogue of the jews ; in a word , wavering pastors , unsetled government , unstable faith. finis . the old religion demonstrated in its principles, and described in the life and practice thereof goodman, john, 1625 or 6-1690. 1684 approx. 338 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 198 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a41441 wing g1111 estc r2856 12412784 ocm 12412784 61579 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a41441) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 61579) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 666:13) the old religion demonstrated in its principles, and described in the life and practice thereof goodman, john, 1625 or 6-1690. [10], 384 p. printed by j.m. for r. royston ..., london : 1684. reproduction of original in cambridge university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project 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record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng christian life. christian ethics. protestantism. religion -early works to 1800. faith -early works to 1800. 2007-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-11 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-01 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2008-01 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the old religion demonstrated in its principles , and described in the life and practice thereof . jerem. vi . 16. thus saith the lord , stand ye in the ways and see , and ask for the old paths , where is the good way , and walk therein , and ye shall find rest for your souls . london , printed by j. m. for r. royston , book-seller to his most sacred majesty , at the angel in amen-corner , mdclxxxiv . the epistle to the pious reader . good reader , thou art here presented with a new book concerning the old religion . as therefore thou art not to expect thy curiosity should here be gratified with new notions , ( for i am not describing a new way to heaven , but directing thee in the good old way which the holy scriptures have marked out , and which wise and good men have all along walked in ) ; so neither art thou to think thy self disappointed , if thou meetest not with a discourse modishly drest up , with all the fashionable ornaments of wit and eloquence . for give me leave to tell thee , though that would have been acceptable to the humour of the age , and perhaps might without any great difficulty have been complied with ; yet it would neither have suited so well with the nature of the subject i am upon , nor especially have fitted the persons for whose sake this little book was written . that therefore which i here pretend , and which i hope thou wilt not fail of in the papers before thee , is , first , a brief but plain and substantial proof of the grounds and fundamental principles of religion in general . secondly , a discovery and confutation of several vulgar opinions , which deform the beauty , and defeat the efficacy of christian religion in particular . and lastly , a clear description , a rational deduction , and a serious inculcation of the most important duties of that religion , wherein either the glory of god , our own comfort , or the peace and happiness of mankind are principally concerned . as for the management of these points , though i have not given countenance to this discourse by citation of authors , nor either adorned the text with fine sayings , nor the margin with great names ; yet i hope thou wilt find a vein of sound reason in it , and the spirit of the gospel running quite through it . i assure thee i have dealt sincerely and conscientiously herein , i have impartially consulted the holy scriptures , i have made use of the best understanding god hath given me , and i here set before thee ( though not the product , yet ) the result of many years observation , consideration , and experience . and so i leave it to gods blessing , and thy candid acceptance . farewel . the contents . part i. an introduction to an holy and comfortable life . chap. i. the wisdom of being religious . page 1 chap. ii. the reasonableness of religion in general . p. 9 chap. iii. of the rewards of religion in another world. p. 21 chap. iv. of the great influence and mighty efficacy of believing heaven and hell , or rewards and punishments in another world. p. 38 chap. v. of the choice of a religion , or what particular religion a man should apply himself to . p. 55 chap. vi. more particular directions for the setling a mans mind in religion . p. 71 chap. vii . cautions against some opinions which are hindrances both of an holy and of a comfortable life . p. 85 chap. viii . directions for the effectual prosecution of religion . p. 139 part ii. the practice of holy and comfortable living . chap. i. of secret devotion and particularly of secret prayer . p. 181 chap. ii. of several other instances of secret devotion . p. 209 chap. iii. of private devotion , or family-piety in general . p. 235 chap. iv. of family duties in special . p. 254 chap. v. of family-discipline , or by what means a family may be brought to the observance of religion . p. 281 chap. vi. of publick piety and particularly in relation to the church and publick assembly of christians . p. 301 chap. vii . of civil piety , or how a man may and ought to promote gods honour , and the publick good of the parish , considered only as a civil society or neighbourhood . p. 346 an introduction to an holy and a comfortable life . chap. i. the wisdom of being religious . the holy scripture ( that book of books , and treasury of divine wisdom ) expresses it self thus concerning religion , psal . iii. v. 10. the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom , and a good understanding have all they that keep his commandments . eccles . 12. 13. let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter , fear god and keep his commandments , for this is the whole ( duty or business ) of man. s t luke 13. 23. strive to enter in at the strait gate , for many shall seek to enter in , and shall not be able . phil. 2. 12. work out your own salvation with fear and trembling , &c. 2 pet. 1. 10. give diligence to make your calling and election sure . s t mat. 6. 33. seek ye first the kingdom of god , and his righteousness , and all these things shall be added to you . s t john 6. 27. labour not for the meat that perisheth , but for that meat which endureth to eternal life . s t mat. 16. 26. what shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world , and lose his own soul . by all which , and abundance of other such like passages , it appears , that religion is as much our interest as our duty ; and that piety and care of another world , are not only the commands of god , and his impositions upon us , but the upshot and result of the best and truest wisdom . for wisdom doth not consist in sceptical jealousies and suspicions , but in a determinate knowledge and resolution what is fit to be done ; not in a superficial smattering of many things , but in a clear and distinct apprehension of the just nature , value , and moment of them ; not in an endless hunting after curiosity , but to know where to stick and fasten ; not in pilling a flint , or laborious beating out of unprofitable difficulties , but in applying a mans self to such things as are savoury and useful ; not in tricks of wit , sophistry , or eloquence ; and least of all in a jest or a repartee ; but to discover what is fit to propound to a mans self as his end and design , and by what means to attain it ; to have great things in a mans thoughts , and to despise and scorn little and petty designs : in a word , to see a great way before him , and to be well provided for the future . now all this is verified in religion more than in any other thing in the whole world ; for here a mans mind is taken up with the greatest thoughts and sublimest objects , god and eternity ; he takes care to secure the main stake , his own soul ; he imploys himself about things of the greatest moment and consequence ; by inquiring about another world , he gives proof of the greatest foresight ; in considering of it , he gives evidence of a sagacious temper ; in resolving upon it , he shews judgment ; in pursuing it by the means appointed , he demonstrates the command he hath over himself , and that he is led by his reason , not ridden by his passions ; and by persevering in this course , he arrives at true tranquillity of mind , the crown and glory of wisdom . accordingly we find by experience , that commonly where-ever there is a grave , thoughtful , sedate , person , such an one as is either fit to give or to take advice , he is seldom destitute of a sense of religion : but on the contrary , where-ever you see an incogitant shatter-brain'd fellow , that knows not himself enough to make him modest and civil , that hath not so much reason as to weigh an argument , nor so much arithmetick as to value any thing but what is present ; that is so much under the power of his senses , as scarcely to know whether he hath such a thing as a spirit within him , or hath so much drink about him , that his head works nothing but yest and froth ; here is a man cut out to be an advocate for scepticism or atheism ; this is the person that will be captious against religion , and malapert towards god almighty . but let such men enjoy their humour as long as they can , they will be sure sadly to repent , or rue it at last : and in the mean time , they only betray their own shame and folly , for their tongue will prove no slander to religion ; the mighty concern of which , is not only declared by god almighty , confirmed by our own reason , and justified by our experience , but also affectionately recommended to us by all wise and good men ; by those whose sagacity and discretion is such , that we have no reason to suspect they are deceived or imposed upon themselves ; and whose sincerity and integrity is such , that we can as little think they should have any design to impose upon us . and therefore those persons , who being either prevailed upon by the evil examples of the world , or discountenanced by the lewd sayings of such as we mentioned even now , and ( declining the ways of piety and devotion ) give themselves up to a loose and irreligious life , are in the first place errant cowards towards men , whilest they are insolent towards god : and in the next place , they are false to the common reason of mankind , which obliges men to provide for the future . in the third place , they are false to their own interest of self-preservation . and lastly , they are false and ingrateful to their best friends , whose counsels they forsake , and abandon themselves to the conduct of the most silly and profligate wretches . but if any shall think to excuse themselves from this censure , by suggesting , that they look upon devotion , as either the effect of a weak judgment , or of a melancholy and timorous constitution . i add , that this makes the matter so much worse , as that it involves them , not only in the guilt of all the former , but also of extream rudeness and incivility towards the best of men . to make all this more clear and convincing , and to lay the surer foundation of all that is to be said hereafter , we will now in the next place shew the grounds upon which religion stands . chap. ii. the reasonableness of religion in general . that which is meant by religion ( in the general notion of it ) is nothing else but a due regard towards the divine majesty , a diligent care of approving our selves to the supreme being , the creator and governour of the world : or , which comes to the same effect , the prudent ordering a mans conversation in this world , so that he may erect his mind with comfortable expectations of the favour of god and happiness in another world. thus much we are taught by the author to the hebews , chap. 11. 6. he that cometh to god , must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him ; in which few words , we may observe in the first place the matter or duty of religion , exprest by diligent seeking of god ; and secondly , the two pillars , or ( as i may say ) poles of it , namely , 1. the persuasion of the being of god , 2. the expectation of rewards from him ; the former of which most properly contains the first rise and reason of religion , and the latter the motives and inducements to pursue it . if these two pillars be united , they make so firm an arch , that no objection can shake the building ; but if they be taken and considered singly , they are each of them of mighty strength for the upholding of religion . § . 2. as for the former , if ( i say ) we consider the nature of god only , that alone is able to possess us with an apprehension of the fitness and reasonableness of diligently seeking him . it is true we cannot see the divine majesty as we may behold corporeal objects , because he is of a spiritual nature , and for the same reason we cannot see our own souls . and it is true also , that we cannot fully comprehend him in our minds neither , because of his infinite perfections ; yet we cannot so much as doubt whether there be any such being or no , if we do but bethink our selves in this one thing , namely , how we our selves came to be ? for , though it may be at the first blush of this question , we shall think it sufficient to say , we had our beginning from our immediate parents , and they in like manner successively from their progenitors ; yet when we proceed on in our inquiry so far as to consider and ask our selves , what it was which brought the whole race of mankind into being ? we shall then find our selves forced to acknowledge the hand of god in it . forasmuch as in the first place , it is certain that nothing could take a beginning without a cause , and in the next place , it is as certain that this thing called mankind , could not be the cause of it self , or produce it self ; and then to impute it to chance , or to imagine that such an excellent being as mankind is , wherein there is so much variety of parts , and yet order and decency , and in short , so many instances of admirable art and wisdom in the very composure of his body ( setting aside his mind : ) that this , i say , should be the product of blind chance , is more absurd than either of the former ; therefore there must be a god , for none but a fool indeed can say , there is no god. now if we acknowledge a god , who gave beginning to our selves , and to all other things , we must also own him to be eternal , as being before all things , and the cause of them ; and as such , he must needs , not only have in himself eminently all those perfections , which are to be found in any part of his workmanship , but be also unlimited in his own perfections . and this will inavoidably lead us to the acknowledgment of all , or most of those attributes , which either the holy scripture ascribes to him , or which religion is concerned in , namely , that he is a free agent , that he is omnipotent , that he is infinitely wise , that he is just , and that he is good , as will easily appear in particular . first , he must needs be a free agent , that is , such an one as acts not necessarily , or that is bound down by any fatal necessity , or determined to this or that act , or object , or measure of acting by any thing without him , but wholly follows his own voluntary motion and choice , the counsel of his own will ; the reason is plain , because he made things when nothing was before , and so there could be nothing to bound , limit , or determine him . secondly , he must needs be powerful or omnipotent , for the same reason , namely , because he gave being and beginning to things that were not at all ; for we cannot conceive a greater instance of power , than to bring something out of nothing . thirdly , he must be wise , both because we see he hath contriv'd things according to the rules of exactest wisdom , insomuch , that the more we understand the divine workmanship , the more we admire it ; and also , because he hath imprinted some image of of his wisdom upon our selves . fourthly , we must acknowledge him just , as well because ( by reason of his infinite power and wisdom ) he can have no litle ends to biass him , as because he hath also made an impression of justice upon our minds . lastly , he must needs be good , not only because he is wise ( as aforesaid ) but because he is infinitely happy and perfect , and so can fear nothing , can envy nothing , can need nothing from any other being , but contrariwise , being infinitely full , must have a pleasure to diffuse and communicate himself to them . § . 3. all these doctrines concerning the deity , flow from that one perswasion , that there is a god ; and the influence of every of these upon religion , is as great and apparent as the consequence of them from the acknowledgment of such a being , was natural and necessary : so that a man may with as much reason deny any of the aforesaid attributes to belong to the divine majesty , as ( granting them to be in him , or belong to him ) avoid the force of them upon his conscience , to incline him to regard this great god , i. e. to be religious , which we will again shew particularly . first , if the divine majesty be a free agent , then it is certain all the good and all the evil which he doth to us , he doth by choice ; and then we ought to be sensible of our obligations to him for the one , and humble our selves to him under the other . and then also , because we are convinced , that he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy , we know there is no trifling and dallying with such a deity , but we ought to use all possible means of propitiating him towards our selves . secondly , for the divine omnipotency , the natural consequence of that is , that we fear him , and trust in him ; for who is there that thinks of a god that made him out of nothing , and is therefore able to destroy him , and resolve him into nothing again when he pleases , who doth not think it the highest wisdom in the world that he shouldbe subject to him , pay him all possible homage , tremble before him , and also think fit to trust and rely upon his almighty power in all exigencies and difficulties ? thirdly , the divine wisdom makes our obligations to religion yet more strict and close ; for it convinces our reason that we ought to submit to his providences whatsoever they are , and not to dispute his commands , nor doubt his promises , but hold him in the highest veneration and admiration that is possible for us to express ; to be reverent towards him upon all occasions , to submit our wills to his ; and especially in consideration that he must needs see and take notice of all our carriage and behaviour , to live with as much caution in the greatest retirement and privacy , as when we are sensible that we are upon the greatest theatre . fourthly , the apprehension of the divine justice and integrity , not only assures us that he hates all sin , but that he hath no respect of persons , but will judge the world in righteousness , and then who will grumble at any of his providences , break any of his laws , or do any unjust and base action , and that because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living god , who always can , and in due time will right himself ? lastly , the consideration of gods goodness , and that he is a gracious and benigne majesty , cannot choose but mightily inflame our hearts with love to him , and provoke us to serve him with all chearfulness ; for who that believes him delighted to communicate himself to the relief of all his creatures , doth not think of him with pleasure , and comfort himself in him ; or who can find in his heart to offend and abuse him , and not rather repent of all his former follies and ingratitudes , and resolve to sin no more ? for as the apostle hath said , the goodness of god leadeth to repentance . so that in this one principle ( the belief that there is a god ) we have a large foundation for religion in general , which i have the rather insisted upon thus particularly , for the sake of those who are called , or call themselves theists ( because they pretend to be convinced of no more of the articles of religion , but only of this great point , the being of a deity : ) these men , i say , if upon that single principle they do not live religiously , are either men of no conscience , and then it will be all one what their principles are ; or are men of no principles at all , i. e. are atheists rather than theists , forasmuch as by what hath been said , it is apparent how pregnant that one principle is of virtue and piety , if it be sincerely believed , and rightly improved . but so much for that . chap. iii. of the rewards of religion in another world. let us now consider the other principle of religion , viz. that god is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him . this ( as i intimated before ) is properly the motive or inducement to the observance of the divine majesty ; for it hath pleased him to conjoin our interest with his own , and he hath made the greatest part of our duty towards him to consist in such things as conduce to our own good , as well as to his glory ; and to that purpose hath laid the foundation of religion , by planting in us that principle of self-love , and self-preservation , which is inseparable from our natures , and by which he works upon us . concerning this point therefore of the rewards of religion , we will first consider the evidence of it , and when that is clear , we shall easily in the second place be convinced of the efficacy of it , to the purposes of making men devout . the former of the two we will make way to the discovery of by this train of discourse . 1. we have shewed already that there is both justice and goodness in the divine nature , either of which severally , but most certainly both together in conjunction , afford ground of expectation , that he will make a difference betwixt those that serve him , and those that serve him not . for seeing his power and greatness render him a fit object of worship , and our dependance upon him as his creatures , makes homage due from us to him : and seeing by his infinite wisdom , he must needs be sensible how men carry themselves towards him ; it cannot consist with his justice to let those escape unpunished , who pay no observance to him ; nor stand with his goodness to suffer those to be unrewarded , that serve and honour him . indeed it must be acknowledged , that this consideration of those attributes will not amount to a proof of rewards in another world , because of that other attribute of his , viz. the divine liberty or freedom , upon account of which , he cannot be bound to exercise whatsoever act or instance either of justice or goodness is possible ; for that would make him a necessary agent ( an error which some men fall into unawares , whilest they are in pursuit of some extreams of opinions ) it may therefore be consistent enough with those attributes ( barely considered , and looking no further ) that he reward and punish only in this world : but that which follows inevitably , is , that some such thing as rewards and punishments there must be upon the account of mens carriage towards him , which is all i intend hitherto . but then i subjoin . 2. it is highly reasonable upon other accounts , to expect greater rewards of virtue and obedience , than what usually befall men in this world ; as also severer punishments of impiety and neglect of the divine majesty , partly because of the unequal distribution of things in this life , where the race is not always to the swift , nor the battel to the strong , &c. but good and bad events happen oftentimes alike to all ; wicked men are sometimes prosperous , and holy men unfortunate and miserable ; by which intricacy of divine providence , the wisdom of god seems to lead us into an expectation of another world , where amends shall be made for what is amiss here ; partly also because the life of men is so short , and they so quickly go off the stage of this world , that neither the rewards of virtue would be considerable , nor the punishments of impiety formidable enough , if they were no more than what men could receive or suffer in this short pilgrimage ; but principally because the good things of this world are so mean , and empty , and inconsiderable , that they afford no satisfaction to the great mind of a virtuous man. riches , and honour , and pleasure , may perhaps fill and swell up a narrow sensual soul , but a brave man can by no means be contented with them ; and therefore it is manifestly unworthy of the greatness and goodness of the divine majesty , to give no better rewards to those that love and honour him , than what they are capable of in this life . 3. there is no impossibility in the thing , that there should be another world besides this , and that we should live in it , either to reap the fruit of our serving of god , or to receive the just reward of our impiety ; all the reason of mankind , nay all the wit , scepticism and sophistry together , can find no repugnancy and contradiction in it ; and therefore the concern of religion is not inconsiderable . if there were any impossibility in it , it must lie in this , that men should live again after they are dead ; but this is so far from implying a contradiction , that it is not at all difficult to him that believes an almighty power , which every one must acknowledge that owns a god ; for why is it harder to restore a man to life again , than to make him at first out of nothing ? so that he relapses into flat atheism , that denies the possibility of that which we are now making way for the belief of . 4. nay , i adde further , this thing is so far from being impossible or incredible , that the consideration of the nature of our souls renders it very probable , and makes us capable of such a condition ; for it is plain , we have that in us which doth not altogether depend upon our bodies , but our bodies upon it ; that which gives life and motion to the body , but receives neither from it ; that which guides , governs , restrains and contradicts the body when it pleases , and which can act vigorously when the other is weak and languid , as we oftentimes observe the strange efforts of wit and reason , when the body is almost worn out and at its last gasp . this being of a spiritual nature hath no contrary principles in its constitution , by the conflict of which it should be brought to dissolution , as the other hath . in a word , the soul hath life in it self ( though not from it self ) and therefore cannot perish , unless either it should be supposed to desert it self , or else that god by his omnipotency should oppress and destroy it ; which last thing there is no reason to suspect , since from the beginning of the world till now , he hath not put out of being any thing that ever he made ; and we see in all the changes and revolutions of things , the least atom of matter is not lost : and can it then seem credible , that a vital spirit should utterly be extinct and perish when it leaves the body , or rather is deserted by it ? and this will be further confirmed if we adde 5. he that made us , hath implanted several things upon our natures which have relation to another life , and another world , and which make it reasonable for us to expect it accordingly ; such as not only a desire to live , which yet we know we cannot do long here below , but a sollicitude what shall come after , an inquisitiveness and continual thoughtfulness for the future , extending it self infinitely beyond the stage of this short life ; nay , some kind of obscure notion and anticipation of another world , which generally the best of men are most sensible of , and usually the more wise and holy any men are , the more they are under such apprehensions ; and sure it would not consist with the goodness of god to permit such men to be the most deluded , especially he himself would not be guilty of putting a cheat upon them , which notwithstanding must be , if there were nothing at all in it of truth ; forasmuch as this is not the peculiar phancy or opinion , either of the sanguine or of the melancholy constitution , but of all the bravest and worthiest men ; and this is that which principally bears them up in adversity , and fortifies them against death , and in the approaches of it , sometimes ravishes and transports them . above all , there is such a thing as conscience , which is common both to good and bad , and which chears and animates the one whensoever they do virtuously , though no humane eye be witness of the action , and when they expect no benefit of their performance in this world : and on the other side terrifies and affrights the other , viz. wicked men , though no man be privy to their misdeeds , and this as it were binds them over to answer for them another day ; now all these things being the hand-writing of our creator upon our souls , are more than probable arguments of another world. 6. god hath declared there shall be such a state . he that created mankind at first , hath assured them he will revive them after death , and reward and punish them in another world proportionably to their carriage towards himself in this . this comes home to the purpose , whereas all that which hath been said hitherto ( how reasonable soever ) depends upon the uncertain and fluctuating discourses of men , ( though it is very true , that wherever there hath been wisdom and virtue in conjunction , they have seldom failed to render this great point competently clear to those who had no other light . ) but some are more stagger'd with a trifling objection , than convinced by a demonstration , and others are not able to follow so long a train of consequences as is necessary to make out so great a question . but now we come into the day-light , and have divine revelation for our guide , and gods veracity for our assurance . i confess i might have fallen upon this way of proof at first , and so have saved all the labour of what i have been saying hitherto , but that i partly thought it useful to shew how far natural theology would go in this business , and principally i took this method to the intent that this great doctrine of christianity might not seem strange to any one , but might be the more readily entertained when it is prefaced to , and usher'd in with so much probability of humane reason . now , i say , god almighty hath himself assur'd us , that our labour shall not be in vain in the lord , that piety shall not go unrewarded in another world , nor impiety unpunished ; this he hath innumerable times expresly affirmed in the gospel , and with such circumstances , as may both best assure our judgments , and awaken our affections . he hath told us he will hold a solemn judgment at the end of the world , at which all men shall appear and receive their doom ; he hath declared who shall be the judge , and confirmed him to be so , by that wonderful instance of raising him from the dead . he hath foretold the circumstances , and the manner of proceeding at that great day , he hath described ( as well as words could admit it ) the joy and glory that holy and good men shall thenceforth be put into the everlasting possession of , and set out the torments and anguish that shall be inflicted upon the ungodly . i shall not need to go about to aggrandize these things , since they are so vastly great and concerning that there is no way to despise them but by disbelieving them . but what colour or pretence can there be for that , after god hath said it , and sent his son to declare this great news to the world ? will men be so wretchedly absurd as to say still , it is impossible that men should live again after they are once dead ? when there is plain matter of fact against this suggestion , which is beyond all the arguments in the world ; for was not our saviour most certainly put to death , and did he not also exhibit himself alive afterwards to the eyes and ears , and very feeling of his apostles and many others ? will men say , heaven is but a dream , or a romantick fancy ? when there were so many eye witnesses of our saviours ascension to heaven , and that he was alive and in power there ; there was that glorious proof , the descent of the holy ghost upon his apostles on the famous day of pentecost , according to his promise made whilst he was upon earth . will they say , god hath a mind to impose upon men ? when he hath no ends to serve by it , when he can compass his designs without it ; and when he hath it in his power to dissolve a world that would not comply with him , and make another in its stead . or , will they say , that men impose upon one another , and there was never any such matters of fact as we have here supposed ? but why do they not then disbelive all history , all antient records , give the lie to all great actions , and abrogate all faith amongst men ; yea , although there be never so plain , never so numerous , so concurrent , and so disinteressed testimonies ? all this , and more than this , they must do that deny the matters of fact we speak of ; and if they do not do so , they must of necessity believe another life , an hell and an heaven . and then , if those be believed , piety will be the best wisdom , and religion the greatest truth ; sin will then be the greatest folly , and trifling with god and religion the most dangerous thing imaginable ; but that we shall more particularly make out in the next chapter . chap. iv. of the great influence and mighty force of believing heaven and hell , or rewards and punishments in another world. there are a sort of men , who ( being too much in love with this world to have any great mind to the other ) will pretend that the grounds to believe these things are not sufficient , and that there are , as the case stands , neither incouragements enough to make a man religious , nor arguments powerful enough to restrain vice ; because we are only prest upon by hopes and fears of hereafter , but nothing befals presently . these men require , that for the countenance of religion , there should be a present discrimination between him that serves god , and him that despises him ; that the sinner should be taken and executed in the very fact , and the good man crowned upon the spot ; or at least they think it not an unreasonable demand , that if it be the will of god that evil men should be reprieved , and good men kept in suspence till another world ; yet he should give mankind a view of what shall befal hereafter , that they might have a sight of heaven and hell , and so dispose themselves accordingly . the former part of this phancy was taken notice of by solomon , eccles . 8. 11. because sentence against an evil work is not speedily executed , therefore the heart of man is fully set to do wickedly . the other part of it is much like that of the forlorn wretch in the gospel , luke 16. 30. who thought it reasonable to ask , that one might be sent from the dead to convince his relations of the reality of another world. but all these men , as they do too palpably betray they have no love to religion , nor no desire it should be true : so they evidently discover that they neither understand what satisfaction is fit for god to give in these matters , or for man to require ; nor do they consider what the nature of virtue and religion will admit of , no nor do they understand themselves so well as to know what motives will work upon men ; nor lastly , have they applied their minds to take a just estimate of the value and efficacy of these motives of hopes and fear which it pleases god to set before them . first , they do not consider what satisfaction in these matters it is fit for god to afford , or for men to require . it is not reasonable that the great god should gratify the humour and curiosity of his creatures , nor that they should peremptorily prescribe to him . it is fit indeed for his goodness to give us assurance in these important affairs ; but he thinks good to satisfy our reasons , and we will have our senses convinced , which is as much as to say , we will not believe god but our own eyes . secondly , they do not consider what evidence the nature of virtue and piety will admit of , that requires such inducements as may incourage good , and discourage evil , such as may provoke us to choose the one , and to avoid the other , not such as will over bear our choice and necessarily determine us . religion requires . such arguments as may improve humane nature , not supersede or destroy it ; and it is best promoted by such a state of things as wherein a man conflicts with some difficulties , exercises self-denial , modesty , humility , and trust in god. it consists in a prudent estimate of all circumstances , a discretion and judgment to value things in reversion , and is worth nothing if there be no such ingredients in it , as faith , and patience , and a virtuous choice ; all which there is no room for , if the rewards of it were wholly present , or exposed to our senses . thirdly , nor do the men that talk at this rate so much as understand themselves and their own hearts so well , as to know what would be sufficient to prevail with them . they phansy if they had the good luck to be spectators of a miracle actually wrought , it would unquestionably lead them to assent ; and yet we see those that were eye-witnesses of abundance of such , were never the better for them . they imagine that if they had seen the passages of our saviours life , death and resurrection , they should not have been incredulous ; yet there were multitudes that all those things wrought nothing upon . and assuredly as abraham told the rich man in the last mentioned passage of st. luke , if men hear not moses and the prophets , i. e. if they do not believe upon such satisfaction as god gives them , neither will they believe upon such other as their curiosity or capricious humour demands , no not if one rose from the dead ; for the same unwillingness which is in them to believe that evidence which they have , will follow them still , and the same captious temper will except against their own demands , and find evasions if their very eyes were gratified ; for faith cannot be extorted from men , nor can any thing make him believe that hath not a mind to it . lastly , nor do they understand the force and efficacy of these inducements of hope and fear which god hath set before us ; which is the thing i principally consider in this place . if indeed the objects of these passions , or the things expected in another world were mean and inconsiderable , there were then no reason to expect that they should have any great force upon the minds of men to prevail with them to despise a present world for the attainment of heaven . or ( supposing the objects as great as we can ) if the grounds of our hopes and fear were childish and vain , i. e. our fears were panick and unaccountable , and our hopes mere sanguine dreams , and romantick phancies ; then it were justly to be expected , that if almighty god would oblige us to religion , he should give us better evidence . but if both the things to be fear'd or expected in another world are vastly great and concerning , if they prove to be real , and also the evidence or assurance of their reality be reasonable too , then it is no less than madness , to run the hazard of them by neglect of religion , whilest we fondly cavil to have our humour satisfied . now that these hopes and fears of rewards and punishments in another world are just and reasonable , and indeed as well grounded as hopes and fears can or ought to be , i have shewed already , forasmuch as if there were more evidence than there is , they would cease to be hopes and fears , and would be the apprehensions of sense . and that the things thus hoped for , and feared , or expected , are of so unspeakable moment , as that if the evidence for them were less than it is , it would be all the wisdom in the world not to run the hazard of them , will easily appear by this short and faint representation . that which good men hope for , and that which god almighty promises them in the other world , is no less than to be raised up again from the dead , and to live for ever and ever , without any pain , sickness , want or infirmity of body ; with minds secure from danger , free from temptation , void of care , incapable of fear , errour or disorder , together with serenity of spirit , peace of conscience , unspeakable joy , in the presence of the divine majesty , and the blessed jesus , and in the society of glorious angels and good men made perfect , where also they shall partake of a felicity as great as divine goodness could design , as his wisdom could contrive , and his power effect for their entertainment . on the other side , that which god in the holy scripture gives wicked men ground to expect and fear , is , that they also shall be raised up again from the grave , and then be exposed openly before all the world , their hypocrisy , lewdness , folly and ingratitude being proved upon them ; and they thereupon be condemn'd to utter darkness , to be for ever abandoned of god and good men , and to become the company indeed , but the sport and triumph , of infernal spirits , who shall make them the subjects of their malice and tyranny , and there live under the perpetual anguish of their own consciences ; and in short , full of the wrath of the almighty , which like fire and brimstone shall prey upon them and burn them without remedy or remission of torment . who now can doubt whether these things are of mighty influence upon the hearts and consciences of men to incline them to religion ? for can any man be so void of all manly discretion , as to despise such an happiness as is promised to good men , or so destitute of all sense as to be content to dwell with everlasting burnings , which will be the portion of wicked men ? no wonder therefore if felix ( a loose and debauched man ) trembled when st. paul preached to him of righteousness , temperance and judgment to come , acts 24. 25. and it would be strange and prodigious fool-hardiness , if any man that lives without regard of god and religion , should at any time happen to consider these things , and should not find a convulsion within himself like that of belshazzar , dan. 5. 6. when he saw the fingers of an hand writing upon the wall against him , of whom the text tells us , that thereupon his countenance was changed , his thoughts troubled him , the joints of his loins were loosed , and his knees smote one against the other . for certainly the least impression , which the consideration of these things can make upon a man , is to render sin very uneasy to him , and to spoil his greatest jollities . forasmuch as every time he knowingly or willfully commits it , he not only judges himself unworthy of eternal life , but defies god almighty , and treasures up against himself wrath against the day of wrath . and the reflection on this must needs make the prospect of death very terrible to him , when these things shall come into plea , and when what before was only feared , must now be felt and undergone ; and without a perpetual debauch , it will be hardly possible for him to avoid thinking of this unpleasant subject , since while he hath his senses about him , he cannot but take notice how daily that unacceptable guest makes his approaches towards him . and if death be terrible to a man , it is certain thenceforward life cannot be very comfortable ; for every accident will discompose him , every disease is dreaded by him , as the harbinger of that king of terrors ; his spirits are convulsed , his joys are blasted , his diversions afford him no relief ; he sees reason to be afraid of every thing , and is tempted basely to flatter and humour every man , because every body hath it in his power to bring upon him the summ of all calamities , that is , to kill him . against all this there is no protection , no sanctuary but in religion ; if the sinner flee not to that , he perishes , and which is worse , feels himself tormented before the time : this therefore he is mightily prest to do , by the terrors of another world. and although it is true , that it is not in the nature of fear ( even of hell it self , ) to make a man generously good , because it only cramps his powers , and is not a principle of action , yet it is an instrument of caution , and if it be attended to , will make him less evil , wherein the first work of religion , namely reformation , begins . and then so long as there is hope also in the other scale , it may happily not end there . the apostle hath told us , the law ( which was a ministry of fear and death ) made nothing perfect , but the bringing in of a better hope did , by the which we draw nigh to god , hebr. 7. 19. for the hopes of that unspeakable felicity and glory , which , as i shew'd before , doth await all good men in another world , is able to make a man forget flesh and infirmity , to despise danger and difficulty , and to raise him above himself , 2 pet. 1. 4. those great and precious promises which are propounded to us by the gospel , do make a man partaker of a divine nature . for great hopes raise brave spirits , and effect wonders . the mere perswasion , that i have an immortal soul , is of mighty efficacy to make me value my self more , than to think my self made to eat and drink ; and will not permit me to drown this divine particle in drink and debauches , nor exert it only in folly and buffonry ; but will prompt me to cultivate this immortal part , to furnish it with wisdom and knowledge , that i may enjoy it the better in another world : to subdue my sensual inclinations , that i may learn betimes to live like an angel , and to castigate my anger and wrath , and fury and malice , those unsociable vices , that i may be fit for that peaceable conversation , and everlasting friendship in heaven . the thoughts of living for ever will not suffer a man to be fond of the present life , but will inable him to banish all servile fear , to defy danger , to flatter no bodies follies , to comply with no bodies vices , but to dare to be good in spight of an evil age , and bad examples . for what should cow him that hath this armour of proof , and is every way invulnerable ? the contemplation of those inestimable good things laid up for good men in heaven , is not only able to restrain sensuality , rapine , injustice , treachery ; but to make self-denial very easy , and to place a man so high above the vanities of this world , that he shall only look down upon the things themselves with contempt and scorn , and upon the men that dote upon them with wonder and pity . he that hath hopes given him of seeing and enjoying the blessed jesus in heaven , will according to the apostle s. john 1. epist . 3. 3. find himself powerfully obliged to purify himself as he is pure . and to say no more , he that believes that god is , and that he is such a rewarder of those that diligently seek him , must needs find great inducements to seek and serve him accordingly . chap. v. what particular religion we should apply our selves to . having in the premisses discovered the ground and foundation of religion in general , and thereby made it appear to be so highly reasonable , that it is every mans wisdom and interest to comply with it ; we now proceed to inquire , what mode or profession of religion in special , he ought to apply himself to , who is convinced of the necessity of it in the general . and this is the rather to be done , because some men make the variety of religions which they observe in the world , an argument against them all ; and because there are so many forms of it that they cannot easily resolve which to addict themselves to , these men ( as they think very wisely ) pitch upon none , but fairly stand neuters . now for prevention of this mischief , as well as to make way for the resolution of the great question before us , let us consider these two things . first , that it is not only an impious , but a very foolish and frantick resolution to stand off from all religion , upon pretence that there are differences and disputes about it . for 1. men will not be content to go by that rule in other cases , no man will conclude there is no such thing as meum and tuum , or right and wrong in their civil interests , because they observe lawyers to wrangle at the bar , or to give different opinions in particular cases ; nor because physicians often disagree in their judgments of diseases , will any discreet man refuse their assistance , and resolve to let his disease take its course : this objection therefore of sceptical men , is but a mere pretence made use of to countenance their aversation to religion , and not a real maxime of reason with them . 2. the ground of this objection is foolishly or maliciously represented ; for it is plain , that the main things of religion are very little or nothing in dispute , but are confessed and agreed in by all . or if there be some points of moment disputed , they are generally such as are speculative , not matters of practice . for who disputes whether god should be worshipped ? whether a man should live soberly , righteously , and godly in this present world ? in such things as these , all discreet and well disposed men agree . let the sceptical person therefore agree to these too , and practise them ; or else let him be so ingenuous as to acknowledge , it is only his unwillingness to comply with the rules of a good life , which makes him pretend to stumble at disputes . 3. it is to be considered , that even those who differ and dispute in several points , agree notwithstanding in this , that it is the wisest and safest course to come to a resolution in religion , forasmuch as particular disputes about it , prove undeniably this in the general , that by confession of all parties there is great moment in it ; because there could be no reason why either the one side or the other should trouble themselves , and raise such heats about it , but that both are satisfied of the great consequence of the subject of the question , and the consideration of that is it which makes them be so nice , curious and critical , about the very punctilioes of it . but , fourthly and lastly , it is especially to be considered , that he that stands neutral , and holds off from all religion upon pretence of the danger of mistake , upon account of the great variety of perswasions , runs into the most fatal mistake of all , and is of all men in the most desperate condition ; for whatsoever becomes of other men , under a mistaken zeal or a false opinion , he is certainly a lost man who hath no zeal or religion at all . for though it be certain , all perswasions cannot be right , and therefore some must miscarry ; yet so long as there is a real foundation for religion in general ( as we have seen ) it is evident the sceptist cannot be saved ( whoever be damned ) who entertains no perswasion at all . therefore as it is better uncertainly to erre , than certainly to perish ; so it must needs be a wiser course to determine our selves someway , notwithstanding the disputes , than gravely to doubt our selves into hell by a phantastical neutrality . but then secondly , as it is a very dangerous and absurd resolution to be of no religion , for fear we should mistake the right ; it is not much better on the other side , to be such latitudinarians , as to think it indifferent what religion a man be of , so long as he is zealous and devout in his way , unless we could be assured , that the broad way was the way to heaven , which is most certainly false . i confess it is a very bad religion indeed which is not better than none at all , as the faintest hopes are better than utter desperation . and it is undoubtedly true , that without fervour and devotion in the prosecution of a mans perswasion , no religion , be it never so good and orthodox , will signify any thing . it is true also , that a man of a devout temper hath the ground of piety , and a foundation for good institution to work upon ; yet notwithstanding religion speaks something more than to be in earnest , and piety requires more than a good intention . for unless that honest temper be cultivated and improved , it will bring forth nothing but wild fruit ; that zeal must be governed and conducted by good principles , or it will betray a man to presumption , to superstition , and to a thousand irregularities . we are set to run a race towards heaven , but in that case it is not only speed , but the keeping the exact course withal , that intitles to the reward . he that runs wrong , the more hast he makes , the worse is his speed ; for he hath the more to undo again . nor is this any reflection upon the divine majesty , who is infinitely good , and consequently very pitiful to the well-meant errors of mankind ; for it must be considered , that he is wise , and great , and just also , not so soft and fond as to be pleased with whatsoever is well meant towards him , or to be contented with whatever men phansy . no , he hath a mind and will of his own , and requires and expects those be complied withal by such as he rewards with eternal life . therefore the question which we are now upon is very serious and necessary , viz. how amidst such variety of perswasions or forms of religion as are in the world , a man may make a right choice , and know which of them in particular he ought to determine himself upon . but the assoiling of it cannot be difficult , forasmuch as if god will be served in his own way , it is evident , that he must have taken some course or other for the discovery and interpreting of his mind and will to the sons of men , to the intent that they may have a rule to govern their devotions by . now it is plain , beyond dispute , that there are three and but three things which can with any colour of probability pretend to give us aim in this case , viz. natural light , the spirit , or the holy scriptures ; and therefore all the difficulty comes to this point , which of these three we are to follow and govern our selves by . as for the first of the three , namely the light of nature , or natural reason ; it is true , that this is able in some measure to discover to us that there is a god , and to assure us also of some of his attributes and perfections , so as to lay a general foundation of religion ( as we have briefly shewed already ) but it can neither discover all the divine perfections , because he is infinite and beyond our comprehension , nor much less penetrate the depths of his counsels , or the secrets of his will and pleasure , because ( as we also noted before ) he is a free agent , and hath no necessary measures , but freely chuses as it pleases him . and therefore as no man knows the mind of a man but the spirit of a man which is in him , so much less can any man know the mind of god till he be pleased to reveal it . now the design of religion being to please and propitiate the divine majesty to us , it is impossible any man should pretend to know what will fully do that by natural reason . consequently not only the old philosophers but the modern theists , and that sect of men called quakers , who pretend to attain happiness by the natural notions of god , or the light within them ; must miserably be bewildered whilest they follow so imperfect and uncertain a guide . as for the second , namely a private spirit , there is no doubt but that the divine majesty could ( if he had pleased ) have conducted men by immediate revelation , and as it were led them by his own immediate hand from time to time , dictating his own will to their minds ; and there is as little reason to question , but that sometimes in extraordinary cases he hath done so in former times : but that this should be his ordinary and standing course , is not reasonable to think ; not only because we cannot now observe , that the best of men either have experience of , or so much as pretend to any such thing , but because in the first place it is evident that such immediate revelation could be of no further use than to that particular person to whom it was made , in regard it would be like the white stone , rev. 2. 17. which no man knows what is written upon it , but he that receives it ; and secondly , because the very person himself that should pretend to it could not secure himself from illusion , but might easily mistake the idols of his own phancy , or the very illusions of the devil , for the dictates of the divine spirit ( as we find by sad experience that many have done ) unless there were withal a constant succession of miracles to assure their minds that it was the divine impression : therefore , forasmuch as those who pretend to the spirit , can give no assurance of it , and natural reason cannot pretend to discover sufficiently the divine will ; it remains , that only the holy scripture is that which must be our guide in the way to please god , and attain the salvation expected in another world. the holy scripture then is that provision god hath thought fit to make for our weakness and ignorance . this is the transcript of the divine mind , a light that shineth in darkness , and by which divine wisdom designed to guide us through all the maze of disputes , and to resolve us of all the important questions that concern our eternal interest ; and this is that which he hath so fitted to our use , that whosoever consults it with a mind free from prejudices and anticipation , he shall not miss his way to heaven . nor shall such a man as is disposed to receive the kingdom of god as a little child , i. e. comes with a mind willing to learn and be convinced , and with that temper applies himself to the holy scripture , need either the pretended infallibility of a pope , or the authority of a church to interpret it to him : for it is certain god is as able to express his mind to us , as either of these are , whensoever he thought fit to do so ; and where he resolved to be obscure , it is not to any purpose to consult them in the case , who are no more privy to his secret counsels than we our selves are . and it is not consistent either with the goodness or wisdom of god , to order matters so , that he should be betray'd to any capital error ( so as to indanger his salvation ) who applies himself to the holy scripture , and comes qualified with an honest heart , and in the use of such ordinary means as are afforded for the understanding of them . it is indeed not impossible , but that such a man , notwithstanding both the perfection and perspicuity of his rule , may erre in some smaller matters ; but there is no reason to fear they should be either such as will abuse him in the great doctrines of faith , or the rules of a good life ; he can neither mistake the object of his worship , nor the manner of it , nor indanger the glory of god , or his own salvation . for this will direct him to a religion plain and easy , humble and peaceable , reasonable and hearty ; a religion that neither imposes an implicit faith , nor countenances a bold presumption , that will make men devout without superstition , and holy without arrogance or pretending to merit at gods hands ; in a word , the holy scripture impartially consulted , will bring us to a religion that shall neither consist of speculations , and be opinionative and fanatical on the one side , nor made up of external shew and pomp , as that of the church of rome on the other side , but such as that of the church of england , which manifestly avoids both extreams . chap. vi. more particular directions for the setling a mans mind in religion . although it be never so certain , that the holy scripture was both composed and preserved by the providence of god , for mens guidance in the way to heaven ; and notwithstanding its great perspicuity and sufficiency in that case ; yet ( as i intimated before ) prejudice of mind is able to defeat the ends of it : therefore for the removal of that , it will be of great use that the following particulars be considered . first , he that would make a right use of the holy scripture , and thereby discover the true lineaments of religion , let him make inquiry after the most antient and the most catholick religion , and not indulge his curiosity so as to be taken either with novelty , or singularity ; for each of those will lead him aside , both from the truth of religion in general , and from the christian religion in particular . as for the former of these notes of religion , viz. antiquity , the oldest religion must needs be as much the truer , as god is before the devil ; therefore the prophet jerem. 6. 16. directs the people to inquire for the good old way , and walk therein , and they should find rest to their souls ; and for christianity in particular , forasmuch as that depends upon divine revelation , it is impossible that after-ages should add any thing to it , or make improvement of it , without new revelation . whilst god is of the same mind , heaven of the same nature , and the gospel of the same tenor , there can be no new christianity . therefore let all new lights go for ignes fatui , and mere meteors , that serve to no purpose but to bewilder men ; he that seeks for true christianity , let him neither content himself to look back to 41 , or the last age , as some do ; nor 500. years backward to a dark age , as others ; but let him inquire for a religion as old as gospel , and observe in what rules it was delivered , and in what examples it first shew'd it self in the world. as for the other note of religion , viz. universality ; it is certain , the true religion is the most truly catholick . for it is evident , that our saviour intended but one church , and one religion in all the world ; and to that purpose he instituted christianity in such sort , that it should agree with all times and ages , fit all countries and climates , suit all constitutions and conditions of men , and subsist under whatsoever form of government , or civil polity it should meet with . those therefore who model religion according to the peculiar fashion of some one country , or frame a notion of it which requires a certain complexion and temper of body ; ( as for instance , that make some austerities essential to it , which all cannot comply with ) or that describe a religion for the cloyster , and not adequate to common life ; or that model it so , as that it must have the civil government submitted to it , or it cannot subsist ; or in a word , that confine it to narrow bounds , or canton it into separate parties : none of these understand the true genius of christianity , nor take the measures of religion from the holy scripture . secondly , he that would make a right choice of his religion , must not take it upon publick faith , or be determined by common fame , or so much as regard the loud shouts and acclamations of the vulgar . for they are generally sworn enemies to sober reason , as being moved more by heat than light , and governed by sense and phancy , and consequently cannot entertain any great esteem for a modest , sedate , manly and rational religion , but on the contrary infinitely dote upon all the tricks of superstition and enthusiasm ; and those two do so wholly govern them , that they receive no impression of religion where one or other of them doth not strike their imaginations . as for superstition , the wonderful efficacy of that upon common minds , is so notorious , that nothing can be more . if they see a man so extreamly scrupulous , that he finds ( as we say ) a knot in a bullrush ; so squeamish and strait-laced , that he becomes a burden to himself and all about him ; so infinitely full of doubts , and fears , and jealousies , that he scandalizes religion by his impertinency , and renders god almighty a very unbenign and severe majesty : such a man notwithstanding is apt to be cried up as a great saint , although in greater matters perhaps he gives himself more liberty than other men . or if they observe a man pretend to great austerity and mortification by the carelessness of his habit , dejectedness of his countenance , or other peculiarity of his garb , as wearing an hair shirt , or girt with a rope , especially if he also macerate himself with fasting , or whip himself till the blood comes , or use any such severity towards himself , they are strangely affected with this pageant of piety , and these things alone are security enough to them that he is an holy man , and of the best religion . thus no doubt the priests of baal , who ( as we read , 1 kings 18. 26. ) prayed from morning to mid-day , made horrible outcries , and used antick postures , and amongst the rest , in a blind zeal , cut themselves with knives and lancets , had a mighty veneration amongst the rabble of superstitious israelites , insomuch that the prophet elijah , with all the holiness of his life , and very great austerity of conversation too , was not able to bear up with them . and thus the scribes and pharisees in our saviours time , what by their demure and mortified looks , disfigured faces , and outward appearance of sanctimony ; what by their broad phylacteries , and fringes of their garments , beset with sharp thorns to prick and vex them ; what with long prayers and frequent fastings , and such other artifices , they so led the people by the nose , that all the wisdom , temper , goodness , nay miracles of our saviour were scarce sufficient to procure their attention to him . and thus it will be also with enthusiasm , that raises the admiration , and captivates the minds of the generality as much or more than superstition . if a man pretend to the spirit , and to extraordinary communications from the divine majesty ; if he now and then either feel or can counterfeit raptures and transports , so that by turns he shall be sometimes as it were snatcht up to the third heaven , and at another time be cast down to hell ; and if in these fits he can talk non-sense confidently , can make vehement harangues against pride , formality , or superstition ; if he make shew of extraordinary zeal and devotion , and have the pride or insolency to speak ill of his betters , to slight all ordinary forms and censure the government ; if he have either an horrible voice , or an oily melting tone , an artificial countenance , a peculiar motion of his eyes , or especially hath the trick to resemble an epilepsy in all this legerdemain , then when he speaks evil of dignities , he shall be thought to have the zeal and spirit of elias , but unquestionably the spirit of god is in him , and he is admired , if not adored , by inconsiderate people . when in the mean time , sound doctrine , sober reason , wise conversation , and grave piety , shall signify nothing but form and carnality with them . for ( as i intimated before ) such things as i last named , commend themselves only to a sedate mind , and a considerative temper ; but the other bear strongly upon the senses and the phancies of men , and so carry away the vulgar . he therefore that would not have his devout intention abused , must not suffer the multitude to chuse his religion for him , nor take it upon trust from publick fame and noise ; for if he decide this case by the poll , he shall be sure to have shadow for substance , and either imbrace a religion made up of paint and varnish , or else one animated only by a spirit of enthusiasm . thirdly , he that would make a right choice in religion , and is content to follow the measures of the holy scripture therein , must resolve with himself , not to seek for , or pitch upon such a way as will put him to the least pains , and give him the least trouble ; but be willing to deny himself , and to conflict with any difficulty that he may save his soul ; for pretended easy religions are like mountebanks cures , deceitful and palliative . some men have the folly to perswade themselves , that a religion consisting of mere faith , without the trouble of a good life will serve the turn ; nay , that to be of a peculiar party , sect or church will be sufficient ; but then it is strange our saviour should bid us strive to enter in at the strait gate : for it would be a wonder if any should miss of heaven upon these terms ; or if any be so sottish , they deserve to perish without pity . others there are that entertain a conceit of getting to heaven by the merits of other men , as by purchasing an indulgence , or by hiring a priest to say prayers for the man when he is dead , that would not be at the trouble to pray for himself whilst he was alive ; or by getting a plenary absolution of all his sins at the last gasp , or some other such voluptuous and compendious ways of salvation . he that seeks out such expedients as these , argues that he hath some little love to himself , so far as to be loth to be damned , but that he hath none at all towards god or virtue ; and indeed demonstrates , that he hath not so much as any worthy notion of god , or apprehension of the nature of the happiness of the other world. nay , he gives evidence , that he is as much in love with his sins as with himself , and would have both saved together . st. paul assures us 2 cor. 5. 10. that when we shall appear at the judgment-seat of christ , we shall receive our doom , according to the things done in the body , whether good or evil ; not according to what shall be done for us when we are out of the body , much less according to what others have either officiously or mercenarily performed for us . all such methods are cheats , the artifices of hypocrisy , and constitute only a religion for an epicure , but are as far , as hell is from heaven , from the institutions of the scripture . it is true our saviour saith , his yoke is easy , and his burthen light , but that is spoken either comparatively to the burden of the mosaick law , especially considered with the additional impositions of the scribes and pharisees , who as he tells us , laid heavy burdens upon others , but would not buckle under them themselves ; or with respect to the great assistance and mighty incouragement which those men shall meet with that apply themselves in earnest to christianity . for certainly , if there had been no considerable difficulty in the christian religion , the first lesson of it would not have been , that a man must deny himself . nor would our saviour have required us , that if our right eye or right hand offend us , we must pluck out the one , and cut off the other , that we may enter into life . chap. vii . cautions against some opinions which are hindrances both of an holy and of a comfortable life . when a man hath setled his principles , and made a good choice of his profession of religion , he is then in a fair way towards an holy and a comfortable life ; yet there are several vulgar opinions , which if they be not carefully avoided will have an unhappy influence upon both , and therefore it is expedient he should be cautioned against them ; especially such as those whereof i will here give a catalogue in the particulars following . to which i will premise this in the general , that although some of the opinions that shall be mentioned , may seem only mere speculations in the first view of them , and perhaps may go no further with some persons , whose singular probity and sincerity of heart may antidote them against the malignity of such tenets , yet in their own nature and the genuine consequences of them , they are very dangerous , as shall now be made appear in particular . 1. therefore let him that would make a due improvement of the principles of christianity , take care of allowing himself to pry too curiously into the secret counsels of god , or of marshalling too confidently the decrees of election and reprobation , and especially of arguing presumptuously concerning his own or other mens salvation or damnation from them . there is no question with me but that god almighty foreknew from all eternity whatsoever should come to pass in after times ; and let it be taken for granted also , that from the same eternity he decreed with himself whatsoever he would afterwards effect or permit ; nay let us moreover suppose he hath expresly determined with himself who shall be saved and who shall be damned , and that so peremptorily , that only they shall be saved whom he hath so decreed to save , and those shall certainly be damned whom he hath past such a decree upon . but what then ? the proper and only reasonable use we can make of these suppositions , is to admire the divine eternity , soveraignty , power and omniscience ; here is neither matter for our curiosity nor for our reason to descant upon : not for our curiosity , since it is plainly impossible to know , what the particular import of those decrees is , or whom they concern ; and less for our reason , since if we will argue any thing hence , it must be no better than deducing conclusions from unknown premisses . the very prying into these cabinet counsels ( besides the folly and immodesty of it ) tends to very ill purposes , for it certainly either blows men up with presumption , or casts them headlong into desperation . the sanguine , and confident , and self-applauding , are filled with vain hopes by these speculations ; and the modest , melancholy and despondent tempers , are inclined to despair by them . but the arguing and drawing consequences of salvation or damnation from thence , contradicts the design of the whole scripture , which charges us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling , and to use diligence to make our calling and election sure ; nay it turns into ridicule all the exhortations , threatnings and promises of the gospel . for to what purpose doth god perswade us , when he hath irrevocably determined our fate with himself ? it discourages all use of means , and all comfort in so doing , since it will be labour in vain : it baffles conscience whensoever it either checks us for sin , or would comfort us for doing virtuously ; for what matter is it what conscience saith , when god hath decreed ? it renders the solemnity of the great day of judgment a mere piece of empty pomp and pageantry , seeing mens cases are all decided before-hand ; nay it makes the very coming of our saviour , his life , death , propitiation and intercession , to be illusory and insignificant things ; forasmuch as upon this supposition , men are saved or damned antecedently to his undertaking . now if after all this , any man will be so desperately absurd and fool-hardy , as to say nevertheless gods decrees are irrevocable , and therefore the matter of fact is true , that if i be decreed to salvation , i shall then be saved without more ado ; and if i be decreed to be damned , i must perish , and there will be no help for it ; it will be in vain to use means seeing i shall but strive against the stream ; my doom is past , and i may bewail my hard fortune , but cannot reverse it . i would only further ask such a man this plain question , viz. how he came to perswade himself that god almighty hath decreed to save and damn men right or wrong ( as we say ) i. e. whether they repent and believe in christ , jesus or no. forasmuch as it is evident , that he that harbours such an opinion of the divine majesty contradicts the very notion of a god , and represents him to be the worst and most hateful being imaginable ; a being that hath only power and will , but hath neither love nor hatred , neither wisdom , justice nor goodness in him at all ; that hath no esteem for faith , virtue or piety , no sense of gratitude and ingenuity , nor any aversation to baseness and villany ; but as if he were an unmoved , rigid idol , is inflexible by any repentance , prayers , tears , addresses and importunities , and insensible of , and unprovoked by all the affronts and insolencies that can be done to him : to be sure he that can think thus of god , will easily believe him to have set a mean value upon the blood of his only son ; forasmuch as he hath given him up to death to no purpose upon the aforesaid supposition . now unless all this be true ( which is impossible ) there can be no colour nor foundation for such an horrid and barbarous opinion . and if this be false , as most certainly it is , then we shall easily be led into this scriptural hypothesis of the divine decrees , viz. that as he decreed from all eternity to send his son to be the saviour of the world , so he then also determined that as many as should believe on him should be saved , and such as did not so , should be damned . and then , what if we find it to follow from the nature of gods omniscience , that he must foreknow the individual persons that shall be saved or damned , or from the nature of his determinations , that only such and no other can be saved , namely , those he hath decreed to it ; yet then it will be evidently to no purpose to gaze up to gods decrees : for then whatever hath been written in the archives of heaven , it is certain it cannot contradict this , that if i believe and repent , and become a good and holy man , i shall be saved , or otherwise i shall be damned ; and then all is plain before me : for in this case i have nothing further to do , but to make use of the means of grace which god affords me , and to look into my own heart and life for my evidences of heaven . thus as the wise persian , who sooner found the sun to be upon the horizon , by turning himself towards the western hills , than he that fixing his eyes upon the east , expected to see the sun it self : so we shall sooner find the beams of divine favour in the reverse and reflection of them upon our own souls , than by a presumptuous prying into his secret purposes . and the consideration of this truth will ingage men in all care and caution , in all diligence and humility , in the use of means , till they gradually improve into a state of holiness and comfort here , and to assurance of the kingdom of heaven hereafter . and this is the course which the apostle leads us to , 2 tim. 2. 19. the foundation of god standeth sure , having his seal , the lord knoweth who are his , and let him that nameth the name of christ depart from iniquity ; as if he had said , it is true indeed , god knows from eternity whom he intends to save , and all such shall eventually be saved and none else , but our hope and comfort cannot be built upon unknown principles , such as only are recorded in heaven , but upon the counterpart of an holy life , or a conformity to those conditions which god hath expressed in his gospel , as a copy from the original , kept in his own bosom . 2. the next dangerous mistake which we ought carefully to avoid , is , concerning the grace and holy spirit of god. when men unreasonably expect that god should do all for them in the business of their salvation , without their own indeavours , upon pretence that we can do nothing our selves , and therefore it is in vain to go about it ; our part is only to wait gods time of working , and when his holy spirit moves , the business will be done without more ado , but in the mean time all our diligence is discharged as impertinent , and even our prayers too ( if this doctrine be consistent with it self ) : for according to this opinion , if ever men come to heaven , they must be dragged thither by omnipotency , ( as the disciples of mahumet expect to be by the hair of their heads . ) now though it be undoubtedly true , that all the good that is in us , is owing to the father of lights from whom every good and perfect gift cometh , forasmuch as he worketh in us both to will and to do ; and therefore we can never magnify grace enough , nor attribute too much to the holy spirit ( without making machines of our selves , and nonsense of the gospel ) yet it is as sure on the other hand , that god needs not that we should tell a lie for him , nor would have us slander his creation for the honour of regeneration , since he doth not destroy the man when he makes a christian . so far from it , that ( as i have noted before ) he charges us to strive to enter in at the strait gate , and to use all our diligence to make our calling and election sure , which plainly implies , that he doth not intend to supersede our powers when he repairs our natures ; and that although he made us without our own activity , yet he will not save us without our own indeavours . and therefore the holy scripture always represents to us the way of gods working good in our souls , to be by exciting our spirits , by assisting and strengthening our faculties , and by cooperating with us , not by over-bearing our capacity , and doing all for us without us ; insomuch that that man who dreams of being carried to heaven by omnipotency , without his own concurrence , is so far from any incouragement from the scripture , to hope that ever he shall come there , that it is most certain he shall never see that happy estate , unless it please the divine mercy to make him so early sensible of this fatal errour , that he may timely repent and pursue the right way thither . for he that expects to attain the kingdom of heaven by miracle , it will be a miracle indeed if he come thither . and this fond opinion is as mischievous as it is unscriptural , not only as it apparently deprives a man of all the comfortable reflections of his own conscience upon whatsoever ( by the grace of god ) he hath obtained , forasmuch as it equals the condition and character of the most slothful epicure , with that of the most generous and industrious ; but especially as it disposes men to slight all the means of grace , and all the advantages of gods church , and that upon good reason : for if this opinion be true , they are all insignificant and collusory . it also tempts men to sin , and that without regret or remorse , under a pretence that they cannot help it ; and in short , it perfectly betrays them to their own lusts , and into the hands of the devil , making way for whatsoever temptation he will think fit to make use of . for the man of this perswasion ( that it is impossible to make resistance ) is bound by his own principles , and to save himself useless trouble , to strike sail and surrender upon the first assault or summons . 3. a third dangerous opinion , which it is necessary to be cautioned against , is a mistaken notion of sins of infirmity ; this at first mention of it may seem of kin to that which i last spoke of , but as i intend it , it is of a different nature , viz. when men do not altogether discourage their own indeavours upon the pretence of natural impotency in general , but yet perswade themselves that some certain sins in particular are so necessary to them , and unavoidable , that god will allow of them under the favourable notion of infirmities , and pardon them without repentance . it is very true , there are such things as pitiable infirmities , which the best of men cannot be altogether free from , and which infinite goodness therefore so far considers , as to make a vast difference between them and wilful or presumptuous sins ; pardoning the former upon a general repentance , whereas he requires a very particular repentance for , and reformation of the latter . but the mischief ( which i seek here to prevent ) is when men cheat themselves into a perswasion that some voluntary sin or other is necessary to them , and therefore must come under this estimate of infirmity , and consequently need neither be repented of nor forsaken ; from whence it comes to pass , that ordinarily the sin which hath been most customary and habitual to them , ( because it easily besets them , and they find it not easy or pleasant to them to forgoe it ) is therefore incouraged under the favourable name of infirmity . for thus they say , every man hath his infirmities , and this is mine ; and so the mouth of conscience is made up , as if a pardon of course were due to it , without the solemnity of reformation . they will allow such a case to be that which they must always complain of , but yet they never expect or desire to see it cured ; for these sins are thought to be only like the canaanites in the land , or some other remainder of those devoted and accursed nations , which must never be quite rooted out , but be always as thorns in the eyes , and goads in the sides of the true israelites , i. e. tolerated but not extirpated . but if this be not a very false notion , what was the meaning of our saviour when he requires us to cut off our right hand , and to pluck out our right eye , when either of them offend us ? that is , that if we will enter into life , we must part with the sin that is as pleasant to us as our eyes , as necessary or convenient to us as our right hand , and as painful to part withal as either of them . whereas if the aforesaid doctrine of infirmity take place with us , it will save all the pains and trouble of mortification , and keep the body of sin whole and intire , and yet put men in hopes they may go to heaven notwithstanding ; and no sin that we have a kindness to , but a man may enjoy it without danger . for thus , it shall be one mans infirmity to be drunk , another mans to swear , a third mans to be seditious or censorious ; and in short , by the benefit of a soft word or distinction ( together with a good opinion of a mans self ) he may reconcile god and mammon , christ and belial , hell and heaven . but this cheat is too palpable , for the plea of infirmity is only allowable in such cases as these following ; namely , when either ignorance or mis-information betrays a man into errour , or he fails in the manner of doing that which was otherwise good for the matter of it , or a great fear over-powers him , or the suddenness of a temptation surprizes him before he was so much aware as to collect himself ; or something of like nature to these , may be called sins of infirmity . but assuredly , that which a man knows to be a sin , and yet commits it , that which a man takes pleasure in , and lives in the habitual practice of , can never be esteemed a meer pitiable infirmity ; and therefore whosoever truly loves his own soul , and is in earnest for eternity , hath great reason to take care of this errour . 4. a fourth danger i would give warning against , is the mistaken opinion about conversion to god , which if it be rightly understood , is a great , solemn and divine thing , and whereever it is truly accomplisht , is the happiest passage of a mans whole life , and the very crisis of eternity , viz. when either a man who ( by unhappy education or otherwise ) was betray'd to evil and mischievous opinions , comes by the advantage of better information and the grace of god , to be otherwise instructed and set right in his principles , or especially when one who was formerly of a lewd and flagitious life , is by the grace of the gospel now brought to a sight of his sin , a sense of his danger , and thereupon changes his whole course and becomes a new and holy man : both these are ( as i said ) great , and solemn , and happy things , to be spoken of with all reverence , and considered with joy and admiration . but now there is a two fold mistake very common in this great affair , viz. when either such a conversion ( as we have now described ) is looked upon as universally necessary , and prescribed to all men , as the condition of their salvation , or else ( which is far worse ) when the whole nature of the thing is mistaken , and conversion from sin to god , is made to be a mere momentaneous act , a kind of qualm or fit of religion , and as such is relied upon , as sufficient to salvation , without an habitual course of holy life subsequent to it . both these last named are false and dangerous opinions , but the evil of the former of them lies in this , that it is apt to perplex the consciences , and disturb the peace of very good men , viz. when those who by the blessing of god have been trained up in good principles , and by his grace not only preserved from a loose and debauched life , but ingaged also in a holy and virtuous course all along , shall notwithstanding have it preached to them , and prest upon them , that they also must be converted and born again , or else they shall never see the kingdom of god. this indeed was necessary and proper doctrine from our saviour to nicodemus , and to the generality of the jews , as well as from the apostles to the pagan world , who had been nursed up in ignorance , superstition and idolatry : but it was not preached to john the baptist , nor to st. john the apostle , nor to timothy , who had known the holy scriptures from a child , 2 tim. 3. 15. and who had been early ingaged in an holy life , by the blessing of god upon the careful instructions of his grandmother lois and his mother eunice , 2 tim. 1. 5. not can such doctrine ( without equal indiscretion and danger ) be preached to several others now who are of that condition , that as our saviour saith , they need no repentance . but it is the latter of these opinions about conversion , which i intend in this place principally to give caution against , viz. when a man who hath been formerly either of a sottish and careless , or of a notoriously debaucht and profligate life , shall be incouraged to think his peace is made with god from such time as he hath had a qualm come over his conscience , and been put into a mood of seriousness and devotion , having been taught to date his regeneration from hence . the mischief of this mistake is very frequent and apparent , for that it tempts men to grow secure before they are safe , and it is very common and natural for such persons to grow careless of themselves upon a vain confidence in this kind of conversion , as if now their work were done , without the trouble of bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance and amendment of life . nay further , when perhaps such men have committed some such great sin , as ( that were it not for this unhappy errour ) would startle their consciences , they are hereby ( instead of applying themselves to god by hearty repentance ) inclined only fondly to look back , and to remember that such a time i was converted , and enter'd into a state of grace , and therefore all is well enough already ; and from hence it comes to pass also , that nothing is more frequent than such mens falling from grace in this sense , that is , to apostatize from such hopeful beginnings ; for indeed they were at most but beginnings , but being foolishly rested in , as if they had amounted to the whole attainment of christianity , they flatter men into security first , and betray them to shame afterwards . and the falsity of this conceit is evident in this , that whereas it makes the great business of eternity to lie in an instantaneous act , the transaction perhaps of a day or an hour , or a sermon , the holy scripture quite contrary-wise represents it as the business of a mans whole life , and requires , that men not only set out well , but that they make a daily and gradual progression towards heaven ; forasmuch as it tells us , that otherwise he who hath begun in the spirit may end in the flesh , and that a man may return with the dog to his vomit , &c. and then the latter end of such a man is worse than the beginning . 5. another mistake not inferiour to any of the former , either in respect of errour or danger , is about the power and authority of conscience , viz. when men perswade themselves that all is right and true , which they are satisfied of in their consciences , and that it is lawful for them to do whatsoever that dictates to them , or allows them in , as if conscience were not a thing to be ruled but to rule , and were invested with a kind of soveraignty , so that it were a law to it self , and to others also . if you reprove some mans opinion ( instead of arguments for it ) he tells you it is his conscience , and that 's enough ; or if you blame some action of his life , he regards not your reprehensions , for , saith he , my conscience smites me not for it , and therefore i am safe ; or if you forewarn him of some counsels or undertakings as tending to sedition and publick disturbance , it is no matter , it is his conscience , and he must pursue it . the mischief of this is very intolerable , for by this means the most foolish and extravagant actions are justified , and the malefactor rendered incorrigible , being both hardened in his sin and in his sufferings , for ( if it come to that ) you cannot convince such men , for they have a testimony within them which is infallible , and in confidence of that , whensoever you bring an argument which they cannot answer , they reject and defy it as a temptation of the devil . if you rebuke them , you blaspheme the holy spirit ; if you go about to restrain them , you violate the most sacred prerogative of conscience , and are gulty of the only sacriledge which ( in their opinion ) can be committed , and which is worst of all , thus god is intitled to the very passions and follies of such men , and to all the extravagancies in the world : for if it be their conscience , god must patronize it , and bear the blame of all . now one would justly wonder what these men think this thing called conscience to be , surely no less than some god almighty within them , and so indeed several expressions of them seem to intimate . but certainly , if they thought conscience to be nothing else but a mans own mind , or opinion , or perswasion , or practical judgment ( which certainly it is , and no more ) they could not either in reason or modesty think fit that this should have such a paramount authority as to bear all down before it , at least they could not imagine that their peculiar phancy or humour , their particular education or idiopathy , their ignorance or stubbornness , should be lawless and uncontroulable . for if mens opinions or perswasions are infallible , what is instruction for ? if the light within be sufficient , what is the light of holy scripture for ? if conscience be a guide to it self , to what purpose are spiritual guides provided by divine wisdom for our conduct ? and if that may not be restrained in its extravagancy , wherefore were laws made , and magistrates appointed ? so that either this wild notion of the power of conscience must be false , or else instruction and education are useless , magistracy and ministry impertinent , and both laws and scripture of no effect . and if notwithstanding this notion be imbraced , it is plainly impossible , that such men should live either holily or comfortably . not holily , because conscience thus left alone to it self , without guide or rule , will in all likelihood follow mens temper and inclination , and then a mans most beloved lusts shall be the dictate of his conscience . not comfortably , because he that is destitute of a law , and a guide to resolve him in difficulties , must needs ( if he consider and be sensible of any thing at all ) be perplexed with perpetual disputes , and endless scrupulosity upon every undertaking . but it will be pretended that there is no help for it , but when all is done , men must and will follow their own consciences ; forasmuch as discourse , or laws , or scripture , signify nothing till they are applied by conscience ; they indeed may give aim , or may be of the nature of evidence in a cause ; but it is conscience which collects the result , and he that complies not with that , is guilty of sin , whether the evidence was well summed up or no. to this purpose some passages of scripture are usually misapplied : e. g. let a man be perswaded in his own mind , rom. 14. 5. that which is not of faith is sin , rom. 14. 23. and he that doubteth is damn'd , &c. i do confess here is something of truth in this plea , but blended with a great deal of errour , and here i verily believe lies the rise or occasion of the perswasion of the extravagant authority of conscience . but when we consider wisely , the truth is no more but this , that a mans conscience ought to go along with him in the acts of his obedience to the law , or that he ought to be perswaded the thing is lawful to be done before he does it , otherwise he doth violence to himself , and condemns his own act . but it doth not follow , that therefore it is lawful to do whatsoever he is perswaded of in his conscience , or that it is not his duty to do any thing but what he is so perswaded of ; for this abrogates all the laws both of god and man , and makes their legislations to depend upon private consent . if therefore any man through ignorance or prejudice , or any such cause , shall have his conscience alienated from the law , or dictating otherwise to him ; this as it cannot make a law , so neither can it discharge him from the obligation of one . all that this works , is , that it puts a man into so sad a case that he may sin both ways , that is , both in obeying and in disobeying ; but because he is brought into this strait by his own default , it is evident this cannot acquit his conscience ; for one sin is no discharge for another . that therefore which he hath now to do , is first to inform his conscience better , and then to comply with the rule . and that this is the true state of this case , will appear ( beyond all exception ) by the resolution of our saviour himself in two passages of the gospel ; the former matt. 6. 23. if the light that is in thee be darkness , how great is that darkness ! where first he supposes that the principles of a mans mind or conscience may be very false and erroneous , and then pronounces , that he that is in such a case is in a very deplorable condition ; forasmuch as the errour of his conscience will be sure to run him upon miscarriages of life , and the priviledge of its being his conscience will not exempt him from the consequences of so doing . the other passage is joh. 16. 2. where he foretels his disciples that they should fall into so unhappy times , and lie under such prejudices & misprisons with the world , that those that killed them , should think they did god good service . now those that think they do good service , and perform a meritorious action in such a thing , most certainly follow their consciences in so doing , and yet it is as certain , that this did not justify the fact ; for then the persecutors of christianity and murderers of the apostles , must have been a very conscientious and commendable sort of men : wherefore it is evident , that conscience is no rule nor sufficient warranty for our actions . 6. in the sixth place let him who hath thoughts of attaining the happiness of the world to come , take care of entertaining an opinion of the impossibility of religion according to the measures of the holy scripture . this is a common prejudice upon the minds of ignorant or cowardly people , for they phansy that a life according to the laws of the gospel , is rather a fine speculation , or a philosophical hypothesis , than a necessary and practicable truth . they confess it would be a very good and commendable thing , if we could comply with the rules of our saviour , but they look upon it as impossible , and so of no indispensable obligation . for they say , our natures are so corrupted by our fall , and thereby our faculties are so weak and impaired , that we are indeed nothing but infirmity on the one side ; and on the other , we are so beset with temptations , and the world , the flesh and the devil , are so much too strong for us , that we must sin , there is no avoiding of it , and god must pardon , and there 's an end of the business . now if such an opinion as this possess a man , it will prove impossible that ever he should live holily . for if natural corruption have not infeebled us sufficiently , this cowardly conceit will be sure to do it effectually . for no man ( in this case especially ) is ever better than his design , nor rises higher than his aim or projection ( no more than water rises above its fountain ) nay , it is a thousand to one , but he that sets his mark low , will fall yet lower in his prosecution ; and he that is cowed and dejected in his own mind , so as to think he shall never overcome the difficulties before him , most certainly never will or can do it . he only is like to prove a good christian , that resolves with the true-hearted israelites to despise difficulty and danger , and to conquer the good land , whatsoever it cost him ; for such a man unites his strength , collects his forces , and disheartens his enemies as well as defies their opposition ; but the despondent cowardly person , both infeebles himself and incourages his enemies ; so that he can neither attempt , nor much less effect , any brave thing . and the same conceit of impossibility will as certainly render our spirits uncomfortable as remiss ; because after all the pretence a man can make for his cowardice and remissness , he cannot but observe the strain of the whole scripture to be against him ; and surely that man cannot enjoy himself very well under those attainments , which god and his own conscience condemn as mean and unworthy . but after all , the ground of this opinion is as false as it is mischievous ; for in the first place , the holy scripture assures us of some persons , and particularly of zachary and elizabeth , luk. 1. 6. that they walked in all the commandments of the lord blameless , and were both righteous before god , and yet they were the children of the same adam , and exposed to all the temptations , ill examples , and difficulties with other men . besides , the aforesaid opinion , under a pretence of modesty , and an humble acknowledgment of humane weakness , reflects very dishonourably both upon the wisdom and goodness of god , when it imputes to the great law-giver of the world , such over-sight and severity , as to prescribe such laws as were not fitted to the capacities of those that were to be subject to them , and to be judged by them ; unto which adde , that it puts an intolerable slight upon the power of faith , and ( which is more ) upon the very grace of god also , as if neither of them could carry us through all the difficulties we should be exposed to . upon all which considerations ( and several such other which need not here be mentioned ) this opinion of the impossibility of religion appears to be very bad , and such as ought by all means to be avoided by him that would lead an holy and comfortable life . 7. and yet there is another opinion , which is both as common and as dangerous as any of the former ; against which therefore i will give caution in the seventh and last place , viz. when though perhaps religion shall not be universally pronounced to be impossible , yet it shall be thought to be only the peculiar business , or especially to belong to some certain sorts or conditions of men , but not to be the general calling , the necessary and indispensable duty of all men . under this pretence , serious and constant devotion is looked upon as appropriate to the cloyster , where men live retired from the world , and are thought to have nothing else to do ; or to be the imployment of churchmen , whose peculiar profession it is ; or for old and bed-ridden persons , who are fit for nothing else , but a prayer-book ; or at least for men fallen into adversity , who have no other thing to retire to , and to suppor themselves withal , but the contemplations of another world. but for men of callings and business , or for those that are in the flower of youth , and warmth of blood , in health and prosperity , these are thought to have allowances due to them , at least for the present , and the more solemn consideration of religion must be adjourned to another time . if in the mean while such as these go to church , and perhaps now and then say their prayers , it is as much as is to be expected ; for their business is pretended to be too great , or their temptations and avocations too many , or at least their spirits are too light and brisk to permit them to be strictly devotional , or to make religion their business . thus men make vain apologies , but doth god almighty allow of them , hath he made any such exceptions or distinctions ? no certainly , he hath made religion every mans duty , and hath charged us first to seek the kingdom of god and his righteousness ; he hath equally imposed this task upon prince and peasant , clergy and laity , rich and poor , master and servant , young and old , the afflicted and the prosperous , the man of business as well as those of leisure and retirement . he that hath an absolute soveraignty over the world , that hath right to our homage and attendance , that hath laid infinite obligations upon us to love and obey him ; he that hath considered and forecast all our circumstances , businesses , difficulties , temptations and excuses ; he that observes our carriage and behaviour towards himself , he that cannot be deceived , will not be mocked , and is no accepter of persons : he , i say , hath made no such exceptions or exemptions in this great concern of religion ; and therefore they cannot be mentioned without great unreasonableness , nor relied upon without horrible danger . if indeed eternity were the peculiar concern of a certain sort and condition of men only ; or if old men only died , and none else ; or if rich men can be contented that only poor men shall go to heaven , then the other sorts of men may excuse themselves from devotion : but otherwise it is the greatest absurdity that can be to hope for the end without the means . what though old men must dy , yet will not young men quickly come to be , old men too , at least if they do not die first ? and what if men of retired lives have more leisure for devotion , and more time to spend in it , yet is any man so hard put to it , but that he may ( if he will ) spare some time for his soul and eternity ? what if it be acknowledged that churchmen have peculiar obligations upon them to recommend religion to others , yet it is certain , that the necessity of practising it , is common to others with themselves ; forasmuch as there is no duty of it peculiar to them , unless it be to be exemplary in all . it is true , poor men , and men in adversity , are justly accusable of intolerable sottishness , if they who are frown'd upon by the world , do not seek to repair their unhappiness by the favour of god and the hopes of another world. but it is as true , that rich men and those in prosperity , are as justly to be upbraided with disingenuity , and base ingratitude , if they be not devout towards him that hath dealt so bountifully with them . besides all this , there is no calling or condition of men , but under it they may ( if they have a heart to it ) very affectionately attend upon religion , consistently enough with all other lawful business or occasions . almighty wisdom hath not so ill contrived the state of this world , that there should be any necessity that business should supplant religion , or religion intrench upon business ; nor if things be rightly considered , are these two kind of affairs so contrary , or doth devotion take up so much time , or so much exhaust mens spirits , but with a good zeal and a little forecast , both may be carried on together . or if it were otherwise , and that the care of our souls would indeed weary our bodies , or the securing of heaven would disorder , and a little incommode our secular interests ; yet neither is life so certain , nor the present world so considerable , nor heaven so mean and contemptible an interest , as that a man should not be willing to put himself to some trouble for the latter as well as for the former . and as there wants not reason for this course , so neither are examples wanting in this kind , where men that might have made such excuses , as aforesaid ( as justly as any persons whatsoever ) have notwithstanding quitted and disdained them all , and applied themselves remarkably to the service of god and devotion . for if riches , and the variety of worldly cares and business which usually attend them , were a just excuse from attendance upon religion , then job might have claimed exemption , who was the richest man in all the east , and yet the devoutest too . his thousands of sheep , and oxen , and camels , his abundance of servants , his numerous family , and the care of all these , did not tempt him to the intermission of one dayes devotion . if either the temptations and pleasures of youth , or the voluptuousness of a court , or the multitude of examples of prophaneness , or the cares of a prime minister of state , or the jealousies of a favourite , could all together have amounted to a just dispensation from the strictness of religion : then daniel who was in all those circumstances might have pleaded it , and upon that account might have retrencht his conscience , and intermitted his praying three times a day , especially when he knew his enemies , watcht advantage against him in this particular . if the general licence of souldiers , the temptations such men are exposed to , the necessities they often are prest with , or the sudden avocations they must be subject to , could make a tolerable apology for profaneness , or an excuse for irreligion , then cornelius , acts 10. had been excused from praying to god continually , and serving the lord with all his house . nay , lastly , if either the state and grandeur , or the prerogative of a soveraign prince , if the impunity of a king , or the glory and affluence of a kingdom ; nay , if either interest of state , or weight of affairs , the cares and policies of government , had been all together sufficient to make a dispensation from the strict obligations of religion , then david might have pretended to it , in abatement of his duty to god , and of his constant and ardent devotions . but all these holy men considered , that god was a great majesty , not to be trifled with , and an impartial judge , without respect of persons , that eternity was of more consequence than the present life , and heaven better than this world ; and they were so far from thinking an eternal interest to be inconsistent with the management of temporal affairs , that contrarywise they believed there was no such effectual way to succeed in the latter as by a diligent prosecution of the former . but as for those who being convinced of the absolute necessity of religion , and of the inexcusableness of a total and final omission of it , would notwithstanding make it to be only the business of old age , or a sickbed ; these ( although by the folly and sloth of men , they have too many followers in their opinion , yet certainly ) are the most absurd and inexcusable of all . forasmuch as in order to the making such an hypothesis passable with their own consciences , they must not only suppose several very uncertain things , which no wise man can have the confidence or rather madness to presume upon ; but the very supposition it self implies divers other things so base and disingenuous , as no good man can be guilty of . first , they make very bold and desperate suppositions , as for example , that they shall live to old age , and die by a leisurely and lingring sickness . that god will then accept of mens return and repentance ( who never stopt in their carriere of sin and the world , till death arrested them . ) that god will give them repentance what time they prefix to him , or that they can repent when they will. that they shall be fit for the most weighty affairs when they are at the last gasp , and the most important of all business can be transacted when their strength and spirits are exhausted . and to say no more , that it is fit and tolerable for a man to leave that to be last discharged , which if any accident prevent him in , he is everlastingly ruined . all these things must be taken for granted by him that shall venture to put off the business of his soul to the last act of his life , every one of which are at the best uncertain , and for the most part false , and therefore to build upon them is extream presumption . secondly , if the foundation of such a course were not rotten and unsafe , yet that which is built upon it is base and dis-ingenuous ; for the man who upon any considerations whatsoever can content himself to put off the things wherein gods honour and his souls welfare are concerned to the very last , proclaims he hath an unreasonable love and admiration of this world , for the sake of which he postpones religion , and that he hath no real kindness for , or good opinion of the ways of god , in that he puts the care of that business as far off , as possibly he can ; and indeed that he would not mind god or his soul at all , if it were not for mere necessity and fear of damnation . now whether this then can be a reasonable course , or he be a candidate of the kingdom of heaven that governs himself by these measures , it is too easy to judge . wherefore let the man who hath entertained any principles of religion , and hath any value for his soul , and care of eternity , utterly abominate and avoid this last named , as well as all the forementioned prejudices or opinions . and having so done , let him then attend to the more positive and direct advices in the following chapter . chap. viii . directions for an effectual prosecution of religion . he that is resolved to be a christian in earnest , will find it necessary ( in the prosecution of his design ) to attend to the six following directions . 1. let such a man be sure always to keep himself strictly sober , by which i mean , not only that he avoid the extremity of a debauch , but that he indulge not himself so liberal an use of wine and strong drink , as that he shall come too near the confines of intemperance , especially in the general habit of his life ; or that he take care that through facility or carelesness he comply not with the too common practice in this particular . forasmuch as it is evident , that the approving a mans self to god , and the taking care of eternity , are such weighty and important affairs , that they must needs require the greatest composure of thoughts , and the utmost intention of our minds ; and can neither be worthily taken in hand , nor much less pursued as they ought , in such a light and jolly humour as the custom of tipling doth ordinarily put men into ; for that relaxes a mans thoughts , and fills his spirit with froth and levity ; it renders the mind of a man so airy and trifling , that he becomes transported with a jest , and diverted by every impertinence ; it banishes sollicitude , and puts him besides his guard of caution and circumspection ; a mans head in such a case is impatient of weighty considerations , incapable of grave deliberations ; his thoughts are fluctuating and uncertain , he comes to no stable resolution , nor can he make any constant progress ; and surely such a temper cannot make a fit soil for religion to take root in , or to thrive upon . besides , intemperance doth not only disturb the reason of the mind , but also weakens and depresses it , and exalts phancy in the room of it ; which fills a man with wild , loose , and incoherent ideas : and which is still worse , it raises the brutal passions also , both irascible and concupiscible , and thereby makes work for repentance and mortification ; which must needs become a very hard task to perform , when the same causes which have made it necessary , have therewithal impaired those powers that should accomplish it ; and therefore this course is utterly inconsistent with a design of religion . moreover , besides the evil of intemperance it self , it exposes a man to a thousand temptations , and puts him at the very mercy of the devil , forasmuch as he that is under the power of drink , is not only out of gods keeping , but out of his own also ; he hath quenched gods spirit whilest he inflamed his own , he hath deprived himself of gods providence by going out of his way , and he is not perfectly in possession of his own mind , and therefore surely is in a dangerous condition . to which adde , that whereas sobriety and watchfulness use always to be accounted inseparable companions ; it is apparent , that he who neglects the former , can never be able to maintain the latter ; and consequently the intemperate man cannot be fit for prayer and meditation , and other great exercises of piety . upon all which accounts our saviour s. luke 21. 34. charges those that will be his disciples to take heed to themselves , lest at any time their hearts be over-charged with surfeiting and drunkenness , &c. 2. in the second place , let the man who designs to prosecute religion effectually , take care of intemperance of mind , as well as of that of the body ; and with equal heed , avoid intoxication by wild opinions , as he would do a surfeit of meats and drinks . the prophet isaiah complains of the people of the jews , isai . 29. 9. that they were drunken but not with wine , they staggered but not with strong drink ; and the apostle exhorts men to be sober minded : so that it seems there is a kind of spiritual drunkenness , which disguises mens minds as much as the other brutal custom disorders their outward person . of this there are a great many instances , but two most remarkable , viz. opiniatre and scrupulosity : i mean by the former , when men have no setled judgment in religion , but allow themselves an endless inquisitiveness in matters of opinion , and are always hunting after novelty : by the other i understand a captious or squeamish humour of conscience , under which men perpetually vex both themselves and others with unreasonable fears and jealousies . as for the former of these , it is notoriously the humour of some men to be always doubting , disputing , and gazing after new light , as if all mankind had been imposed upon till now , and the old way were not the good way , but every new invention , or upstart notion contained some admirable mystery in it ; therefore they think it necessary to try all things before they can hold fast that which is best , and indeed surfeit on the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil , as if it were the same with the tree of life . and if perhaps they fall not into any of those dangerous opinions which i gave caution against in the former chapter , yet it is by chance if they do not ; for they having no judgment of discern the difference of things , no ballast to poise and settle them , are driven up and down with every wind of doctrine ; they are of the opinion of the last book they read , or the last man they discoursed with , for always the newest and freshest opinion is the best ; and so ( as they say of the chameleon ) they take their colour from the next object . this temper is a mighty disparagement to divine truth , for it looks as if there were no certain way of satisfaction to the minds of men , but that they must always seek and never find , and endlesly dispute but could never come to a resolution : and it is so intolerable an impediment of the life and practice of religion , that it is many times more harmless to be setled in some bad opinions , than to be thus unsetled , and to dispute every thing . for besides that this course draws off the spirits of men , and spends their best heat upon unprofitable notions , and so takes them off from studying their own hearts , examining their consciences , and diligent attendance to their ways and actions ; it raises passion , nourishes pride , foments divisions , and in a word , turns christianity into vain janglings . whereas a truly sober christian is readier to believe than to dispute in divine things , and more careful to practise old rules than to devise new models ; he studies the scripture sincerely , not for objections but for resolution ; he lives up to what he knows , and prays god to direct him where he is uncertain ; and so is led by the divine grace in a plain path towards heaven . the novellist or great disputer contrariwise , being unresolved of his way , makes no hast in his journey , and cannot very earnestly practise any thing to day , because he cannot tell what opinion he shall be of to morrow . and then for the other instance of intemperance of mind , namely scrupulosity . when men have such headstrong and ungovernable , or such shy and squeamish consciences , that they boggle at every thing which doth not just fit their peculiar phancy and humour , though they can give no reasonable account of their jealousy or aversation , but only they dislike and are offended with such and such ( indifferent ) things , they know not why , their conscience takes check at them , and there is no more to be said in the case . now such as these can by no means be reputed sober men , who ( like as we say of drunkards ) see double , and consequently fear where no fear is , or who are terrified by their own idle phancies , their brains being clouded and darkened by the crude steams of riot and excess . this temper however in some cases it may be pitiable , is notwithstanding very mischievous , not only as it disturbs the peace of the church and of mankind , by rendering those who are under the power of it , busy and pragmatical , censorious and uncharitable towards all that are not just of their own mode and size , but ( which is far worse ) it misrepresents the divine majesty , as if he were a captious deity , who watched mens haltings , to take advantage against them , as having more mind to damn than to save them . by which means it discourages men from religion , as if it were the most anxious and uncomfortable thing in the world ; and consequently of all this , it extreamly hinders proficiency in virtue ; for he that is always jealous of his way , will often make halts , or have a very uncomfortable progress . on the other side , he that is likely to make a good christian , satisfies himself of the divine goodness and candour in interpreting the actions of his creatures , and being conscious of his own sincerity , in following closely the rule of the scripture , where it is plain , thinks himself at liberty where that is silent , and takes the direction of his spiritual guides where it is obscure , and then goes chearfully and vigorously on his way towards heaven . 3. next to regard of sobriety both of body and mind , let the man who designs the other world , take heed that the present world grow not too much upon him , and distract or over-burden him in his journey towards heaven : and the diligence and circumspection in this point ought to be the greater , in regard this world is placed near us , and therefore is apt to seem great to our sight , and the other ( though incomparably greater ) being at a distance from us , is apt to seem little and contemptible . besides , it is the chief aim of the devil to make the present world seem much more beautiful and valuable than it is , that by its blandishments he may soften us , by its allurements debauch us , or at least by the care and concerns of it distract us and take off our edge to better things . it is certain also , that he whose affections are eagerly ingaged upon secular interests , can never be ingenuous and free enough to have a right understanding of the true and real difference of things , nor conscientious enough to stand by that truth which he understands ; for he can never be steady in any principles , but must turn with every tide , and sail with every wind , as it shall make for his purpose : besides , it is plain , that our souls are too narrow to hold much of this world , and yet to afford room for any great share of heaven together with it . therefore our saviour hath said , ye cannot serve god and mammon , and accordingly in his first sermon on the mount , matt. 6. 24 , 25 , 26. to the intent that his doctrine of the kingdom of heaven might take place in the hearts of his disciples and hearers , he very emphatically and largely cautions them against admiration of the world , and too eager pursuit of it . and in the aforementioned passage , luk. 21. v. 34. to his admonition against over-charging themselves with surfeiting and drunkenness , he subjoins the cares of this life , intimating , that those two kinds of vices ( as opposite as they may seem to each other ) agree in their malignant influence upon religion : neither indeed are they so contrary in their natures as they seem to be ; for as drunkenness is nothing but a liquid covetousness , so on the other side , covetousness is a kind of dry thirst or drunken insatiable humour ; and it is so much the more dangerous and incurable than the other , as it is the less infamous , merely because it doth not presently discover it self by such odd and ridiculous symptomes as the other doth . to avoid this therefore , let the man we speak of , consider constantly with himself the shortness and uncertainty of the present life , by which he will easily be apprehensive of how much more consequence it is to provide for eternity , than for that little abode we are to make in that state wherein the things of this world are of any use to us . let him also observe the success of things , and he will easily conclude , that much more of our prosperity is owing to the providence of god , than to our own forecast and indeavours ; and consequently , that it is a better provision for our children and posterity , to leave them under the blessing of god , than in great possessions . and in consequence of these perswasions , he will not be tempted to grasp too much business , so as to hinder him in devotion , but will rather consider his own strength , viz. how much care and labour he can undergo , without depression of his spirit , or debasing his mind ; and will weigh the dangers and temptations of the world against the pleasures and all urements of riches . this will also incline him prudently to methodize his affairs , and to put that business which seems necessary , into the best order , that so it may take its due place in subordination to his greater concerns , and not supplant or interfere with them . to which purpose also , if he have any considerable matters to dispose of , he will think it convenient to set his house in order as well as his business , and have always his will made , not only , that thereby he may be the more effectually admonished of his mortality , and be provided against the surprizal of death , but that in the mean time he may have the less sollicitude upon his spirit , and may the more singly and undistractedly apply himself to his main business . and then 4. in the fourth place let him attend to the counsel of jesus the son of syrach , ecclus. 2. 1. my son , if thou come to serve the lord , prepare thy soul for temptation , that is , as if he had said , whensoever thou undertakest a course of religion , be not so fond as to imagine thou shalt be able to accomplish it without sweat and difficulty , or so secure as to think of obtaining the crown without a conflict , but expect to meet with temptations of several kinds , and arm thy self accordingly ; especially in thy first entrance on such a course , thou must look for the sharpest encounters , for thy enemies are not so soon vanquisht as defied , nor are they either so fair and civil as to give thee scope to harden and fortify thy self in thy enterprize , or so imprudent as to slip the opportunity of thy weakness and security together . beginnings in all such cases are attended with the greatest hazards and difficulties . the devil rages most at first , out of indignation to suffer the prey to be taken out of his mouth , whereas when he is past hopes of recovering it , he hath more wit than to labour in vain , and will not so much trouble himself to tempt when he sees no likelihood of success , but he is more resolute than quickly to despair or give over his siege upon the first denial of his summons . no he will storm and batter thee night and day , and cast in all his bombs and fiery darts to affright and compel thee to a surrender . and for the flesh it is certain , that the first checks which are given to sensual inclinations , are harshest , and go most against the grain , because they have used to take their full scope and swinge ; indeed when a man hath accustomed them to denial in their importunities , they by degrees and in time grow tame , and submit to the yoke of reason , as fire is extinguish'd by being supprest , or as a violent torrent that is turned into a new chanel , and restrained its antient course , at first rages , and foams and swells against those new banks , though at length it ceases its tumult , and runs along quietly within its boundaries . it is not one overthrow will dishearten the old man , he must be baffled and vanquisht over and over before he will cease to rebel , nor must you think to find virtue easy till you have accustomed your self to it ; for nothing but custom can intirely subdue custom , wherefore ( till that is introduced ) you must never be secure but always upon your guard . and then as for the world , the first rejection of that out of a mans heart is performed with as great difficulty as any of the former ; when a man hath once cast over-board that luggage which otherwise was likely to have sunk him , it 's possible he may be glad of the exchange , and despise what before he admired ; but it is a great matter to be convinced of the necessity of unburdening the vessel , and a long dispute before men are willing to lose any thing for heaven . it requires a great sagacity to see the empty pageantry of the world , so as to slight fame , applause , riches , ease and pleasure ; a hard piece of self-denial to abridge himself of the liberty other men take ; a great mastery of a mans self to be deaf to all the charms , and insensible of all the caresses of the world , and in a word , to keep a mans eyes and thoughts steadily fixed upon another life . therefore there is great reason that a man should count upon difficulty in the undertaking of religion , lest when it comes upon him unforeseen , he turn recreant , and come off with shame and loss . besides all this there is something more which ( i apprehend ) the wise man intended in the aforesaid advice , namely , that he that resolves to be a virtuous man , must fortify his mind , as well against the perswasions , examples , and discouragements of his less considerate friends and acquaintance , as against the bitter scoffs and reproaches of his enemies , that neither the insensible insinuations of the one dissolve him into lukewarmness and remissness , nor the rough attacks of the other sink his spirits , and shake his resolution . opposition from each of these he must expect to meet with : from the former , out of folly , or else in their own defence , that such a man's zeal may not reproach their negligence ; from the other , out of malice and as assailants , that they may reak their spight upon god and his holy ways ; and therefore he ought to be provided for both . against the soft insinuations of injudicious persons , he must be provided , by being girt about with truth , and have on the breastplate of righteousness , as the apostle advises , eph. 6. 14. that is , he must establish his heart in an undoubted belief of the truth on his side , by considering the authority of god , the example of our saviour , and other holy men , and hence be able to render a reason of the hope that is in him with meekness and fear ; and if this do not ease him of their fond importunities , he must then put on some degree of morosity , and resolve with david , 2 sam. 6. 22. that if this be to be vile , he will yet be more vile . against the rude treatments of lewd and malicious men , he must as the same apostle advises , eph. 6. 16 , 17. take the shield of faith , whereby he shall repel all the fiery darts of the wicked , and for an helmet the hope of salvation ; and in contemplation of the objects of both those , he will be able generously to contemn all obloquy and reproach , as disdaining to be hectored out of salvation . in a word , for altogether he must always remember , that self-denial is the first lesson of christianity , and that he that hath not so learnt it , as to take up his cross and follow christ , cannot be his disciple . 5. in the fifth place , let the candidate of the kingdom of heaven take care that he do not precipitate himself into temptation ; for as on the one side we ought to behave our selves stoutly and bravely , when it pleases god to lay it upon us , so on the other side , ought we to be as cautious and timorous of drawing it upon our selves ; the first of which is seldom separate from the last ; for he that knows how to encounter a danger , will not ordinarily thrust himself into it ; and usually those who are so stupid and fool-hardy , as to run themselves into difficulties , shew as little courage and conduct in conflicting with them , as they did discretion in the adventure upon them ; and no wonder , seeing in such a case they put themselves out of gods protection , trusting to themselves , and then they cannot in reason expect other than to be deserted by his grace in such unwarrantalbe enterprizes . let the piously disposed man therefore not be so fond as to try experiments upon himself , lest he buy his knowledge of his own weakness at the cost of too great an hazard . let him not go too near sin , in confidence that he can divide by an hair , and come off clever enough . for instance , let him not nibble at an oath , nor mince the matter of profaneness , nor drink to the highest pitch of sobriety , nor go to the utmost extremity of justice in his dealings ; for he knows not the deceitfulness of his own heart , nor considers the slippery ground he stands upon , that will thus venture to the very brink of his liberty . nor let him provoke enemies to himself by intemperate zeal , as if a good man should not meet with opposition enough without his own procuring , nor the world had malice enough unless he inflamed and exasperated it ; especially , let him not thrust himself into lewd company , in confidence of his own integrity and stability : for he hath no sufficient apprehension of the power and malice of the devil , who by any of the aforesaid imprudences tempts him to tempt himself ; nay , nor doth he seem to hate and abominate sin so absolutely as he ought to do , that loves the vicinage and neighbourhood of it . what the wise man therefore advises , prov. 5. 8. concerning the whorish woman , is very applicable to this case , remove thy way far from her , and come not near the door of her house ; and so also he saith of flagitious men , chap. 4. 14 , 15. enter not into the path of the wicked , and go not in the way of evil men , avoid it , pass not by it , turn from it , and pass away ; for he that goes ordinarily to the brink of a precipice , is in great danger sometime or other to fall in , and he that nibbles at the bait , will one time or other be taken with the hook . 6. sixthly and lastly , as a discreet man , and concerned for eternal life , ought not to be over-daring and confident in his approaches towards sin and danger , so neither ought he on the other hand to be timorous and strait-laced in things eminently and unquestionably good ; whether it be in instances of devotion towards god , or of self-denial and mortification of himself , or in acts of charity towards others ; for in all these , there is such a scope and latitude , as that a brave and noble spirit of christianity , may and will distinguish it self from a narrow and stingy temper in the discharge of them . for example , such a man as we speak of , neither will nor ought to confine his devotions to such strict and precise measures , as that he that falls short of them will be guilty of an omission of his duty ; but will contrarywise find in his heart to spend something more than ordinary of his time in prayers and meditation , and such other acts of immediate worship . he will not stick to apply somewhat more than the just tenth or tythe of his increase , to the incouragement of religion ; nor will he grudge to deny himself , upon weighty occasions , some of that pleasure which at other times he can allow himself without sin : or if occasion be , he will give alms , not only out of the superfluity of his estate , but to the utmost of his ability , perhaps beyond his convenience ; for these things though ( generally considered ) they are not matters of express duty , yet do they not cease to be good , merely because they are not commanded , so long as the species and kind of them is commanded ; and besides , such extraordinary expressions of obedience to a general command , are very fit to demonstrate our love to god , our gratitude for his unspeakable bounty towards us , and our value of the kingdom of heaven , seeing that by such instances especially , we shew , that we love the lord our god with all our heart , and soul , and strength ; and that we think nothing too dear for the assuring our selves of eternal life . and though it would not be expresly a sin to omit any one of the instances of the several kinds aforesaid , yet it must be a palpable argument of a narrow heart towards god , to yield no such instances at all , and cannot but proceed from very culpable superstition to be afraid of so doing ; nay more , for a man to be barren of such fruits , and careless of such performances , is a great point of folly and imprudence towards our selves , in respect of the comfort which our hearts might receive by such generosity ; for although by no after act of ours ( how excellent soever ) it be possible for us , to make any proper amends to the divine majesty , for our former offences and omissions , yet by such expressions as these ( we speak of ) we shew our selves sensible of those miscarriages , and that we are under remorse for them , and we give proof , that we truly love god , though we have offended him , and desire to obtain his favour by the most costly oblations . upon all which accounts it seems very adviseable , that he who sets his face towards heaven , should indeavour to open and inlarge his heart this way , and not suffer himself to be cramped and contracted by any odd opinions to the contrary . whereas therefore some men seem to fansie a frugal way of religion , and accordingly inquire for the minimum quod sic ( as we say ) or the lowest degree of saving grace , as if heaven and hell were divided by an hair , and they would be at the trouble of no more piety than would just carry them out of danger ; they are to be admonished that they seek after impossibilities and contradictions ; for it is in truth as if they should say , they would have fire without heat , religion without devotion , piety without affection , holiness without zeal , or that they desire to fear god , but have no inclination to love him . to speak plainly , the lowest degree of goodness is never sought after but in an ill temper of mind , and by a cowardly and hypocritical heart , nor can it be found with comfort ; for the essence of grace is no more discoverable without the fruits , than a body without its accidents ; and therefore there are but two ways of obtaining true comfort in our souls , viz. either by our daily proficiency , or by our extraordinary fervency . first , by daily proficiency we discover the life of grace in our hearts , as we discern a plant to be alive because we see it grows . secondly , by extraordinary fervency , as when perhaps a man hath not had time to give proof of himself by a long course of growing daily better and better , he may yet demonstrate a vital principle of good in his soul , by such generous efforts of zeal as we have been speaking of ; in consideration of which , it is therefore not only sordid and ingrateful towards god , but very uncomfortable to our selves to inquire for the mere essence of grace , and to stand upon strict and precise terms of duty . but perhaps these men think a pretence of modesty will countenance them against any imputation of cowardize or hypocrisy , for they will say they are contented with the lowest seat in heaven , and so they may arrive at that state , they are ambitious of no more . silly men ! as if it were a culpable ambition to indeavour to be very good ! as if supreme happiness could be modestly or remisly desired ! or that he either understood or truly desir'd heaven , who would modestly complement , others to enter before him ! no , no ; the chiefest good is desirable for it self , and the natural manner of desiring it , is to do it without measure and bounds , and it is impossible it should be otherwise ; he therefore that hath these modest desires of heaven , is either a stark hypocrite , or hath no true notion of that state at all . besides , if it were or could be possible for a man to be modest and good in this sense , i mean to love heaven but moderately , and yet to comethere , notwithstanding it could not be without great folly and danger , for a man to set himself too low a mark in so high a concern ; for ( as i observed before ) we see it is almost constant with men to shoot below their aim , and nothing more ordinary than for their practice to fall short of their speculations ; and therefore every man that would not miscarry in his design , takes care to direct himself high enough ; accordingly in this great affair of religion , he that yields to such a faint-hearted temper , under the notion of modesty , will not only never be very good , but scarcely ever be tolerable or good at all ; for if his projections be mean , his performances will be worse , in regard the deceitfulness of his own heart , the reluctancy of the flesh , and the temptations of the devil , will be sure to get some ground upon him ; and when abatements are made for all such disadvantages , what a pittiful dwarfish sanctity will this over modesty arrive to at last ? but yet after all this , some perhaps will be found so silly as to think , or so disingenuous as to pretend to a suspicion , at least , that such extraordinary works as we have been now recommending , may savour of merit or supererogation ; very likely , if any man could be so absurd as to attribute any such thing to them ; but surely he that takes his measures of things from the holy scripture , will be in little danger of such a gross mistake , especially whilest we are expresly told by our saviour , that when we have done all that we can , we are still but unprofitable servants ; for can a mortal man oblige his maker ? can infinite perfection become a debtor to dust and ashes ? but forasmuch as god requires and deserves that we should love him with all our soul , and heart , and strength ; it is impossible we should love him too much , but great danger we should love him too little : it cannot therefore choose but be the wisest and safest course to incline to the side of god almighty , and to favour his interest against the sensuality , deadness and deceitfulness of our own hearts . o but ( may some man say ) will it not at least be will-worship to affect uncommanded instances of love to god and zeal of his glory ? i answer , it is possible that such a thing may be , if these things be done with neglect of those expressions of love and zeal which god hath particularly appointed ; for this looks as if a man pretended to be wiser than god himself , and so would undertake to choose for him , what he should be pleased with . but now , if neither his appointments in special be superseded by these voluntary performances , nor these voluntary performances be unagreeable to those standing and general rules he hath given us , there can be no danger that divine goodness should ill interpret them , especially since there can be no imaginable reason why he that was pleased with a free-will-offering under the law , should be offended with the like under the gospel ; where above all things he requires a free , chearful , generous and reasonable service . wherefore let the man who really believes there will be rewards of well-doing in another world , and is resolved to obtain them , be always ready to every good work , and chearfully imbrace the opportunity wherein he may perform a costly or a difficult service ; and let him take care that no tradition of men , nor superstitious conceit of his own head , neither the example of other mens careless lives , nor the too natural remissness of his own heart , prevail upon him to neglect such instances , whereby the glory of god may be most advanced , and his own comfort assured . part ii. the practice of holy and comfortable living . jer. 6. 16. thus saith the lord , stand ye in the ways , and see , and ask for the old paths , where is the good way , and walk therein , and ye shall find rest for your souls . the practice of holy and comfortable living . chap. i. of secret devotion , between god and a man 's own soul , and particularly of prayer . hitherto in the former part of this little book , we principally designed these four things , first , to discover the foundations of religion in general , and from thence to demonstrate the reality , importance and necessity of it . secondly , to settle mens judgments and determine them in the choice of their profession of religion in particular . thirdly , to give caution against certain common but dangerous mistakes , which might otherwise undermine and disappoint the ends and purposes of religion . fourthly and lastly , to lay down some general directions necessary to be premised in order to the effectual prosecution of a religious design , and all this we comprized under the title of an introduction . but now we come to build upon those foundations , and more particularly and plainly to draw out the lines of an holy and comfortable life . here therefore it may seem expedient that we should in the first place consider the extent and whole compass of religion , to the intent that it may not be taken for such a narrow and stingy thing as the generality of men represent it , namely to shew , that it is not a mere scuffle about opinion , nor a canting with peculiar phrases , neither a clubbing into a distinct party under the notion of a church or select society , nor yet the formal acting of a part with the observance of abundance of nice rites , ceremonies and punctilio's ; that it is not a thing which looks beautifully , and promises fairly in publick , but is forgotten or laid aside at home , nor is it immured in a closet , and never sufferd to take the air in conversation ; to say no more , that it is not mere morality , nor mere devotion , but both these in conjunction , together with all that is brave and noble , and wise and good ; all that can better the minds and tempers , and lives of men , and all that can improve the state of the world ; all this is within the verge of religion , especially the christian religion . for so the apostle intimates , phil. 4. 8. finally brethren , whatsoever things are true , whatsoever things are honest , ( or grave ) , whatsoever things are just , whatsoever things are pure , whatsoever things are lovely ( or friendly ) , whatsoever things are of good report , if there be any virtue , and if there be any praise , think of these things , i. e. count them branches of christianity , for true religion is nothing less , nothing , i mean of no narrower extent than a wise and worthy conduct and manage of a mans self in all those relations we stand in , namely towards god , our neighbour , and our selves . this i take to be the true notion and the just province of religion , but i can neither think it possible to handle all the parts of so vast a subject in this short treatise , nor indeed do i apprehend the discoursing of them all to be equally necessary to those for whose use i principally intend these papers . therefore omitting ( but not excluding ) all other branches of religion , i will here only speak of these three things . first , of secret devotion , or those acts of piety which are transacted only between almighty god and a mans own soul. secondly , of private piety , or the exercises of religion in every particular family . thirdly , of the more publick acts of religion , and concerning a mans governing himself so as to consult the honour and service of god in the parish wherein he lives . i begin with the first , viz. of secret or closet devotion . that this is an essential branch of true religion , and a necessary and universal duty , appears by the command of our saviour , mat. 6. 6. when thou prayest , enter into thy closet , and when thou hast shut the door , pray to thy father who is in secret , &c. in which words it is not our saviours meaning to forbid or put a slight upon all but closet devotion ; for he himself frequently prayed publickly and taught his disciples so to do ; nor though he speak of a closet , doth he intend to confine this duty to the strict formalities of a closet , but that it may be done in the fields , or in any recess or place of secrecy whatsoever , as he himself practised ; nor lastly , though he use the word prayer only , doth he make that strictly taken to be the whole office of secret piety ; for it is usual in the scripture , and in common speech also , to express all the acts of immediate worship by the name of prayer , whether they be praises , or adorations , or confessions , or thanksgiving , or meditation or self-examination ; all therefore which our saviour here intended , was to represent the necessity of secret devotion as well as publick , and to press that upon his disciples which the hypocrisy and ostentation of the pharisees had laid aside , because in truth they sought not gods glory but their own . and this is further recommended to us by the universal practice of all good men in all ages and countries of the world , and of whatsoever opinion or perswasion otherwise . there have perhaps been those who under some pretence or other have neglected family worship , and those also who have been abased by some scruples into an omission of publick worship ; but i verily think that none but flat atheists , or gross hypocrites ( which are much the same thing ) could ever dispense with themselves in the common and habitual neglect of secret worship ; for a man cannot believe there is a god , or much less have any worthy apprehensions of him , but it naturally puts him upon some act or other of adoration towards him . acts of publick worship are to the soul as exercise is to the body , it may live and subsist , though not long and healthfully without it ; but secret devotion is like the motion of the heart and lungs , without which a man is presently choaked up and destroy'd ; if his heart do not move towards god , and as it were by circulation return in praises , all those benefits which it continually receives from him , it is stifled by repletion ; and if by prayer he do not breathe out his griefs , and as it were ventilate his spirits , he is strangled by his own melancholy : for the publick performance of religious offices cannot make a supply in these cases , because every man hath his secret sins to confess to god , which it is ordinarily unsafe to make other men privy to , and his peculiar infirmities and temptations , his griefs and burdens , which it is in vain to lay open to men , seeing only god can relieve them ; and every man hath received sundry personal mercies and savours from the hands of god , in answer of his prayers , which require a personal acknowledgment to the divine goodness . and the opening of a mans heart in any of these cases is commonly attended with such affections and passionate expressions , as would be indecent to the eyes of men , though they are very becoming towards god , in respect of which last thing , we find , 1 sam. 1. 13. hannah was thought to be drunk , by the holy and wise man eli the priest , when yet , as the truth appear'd afterwards , he saw in her only the devout symptoms of a sorrowful spirit . besides , these acts of secret worship are very necessary in order to publick worship , both as they dispose and fit a mans heart for it before he enters upon it , by composing the thoughts and raising the affections ; and as they make application of it afterwards , pressing home upon the conscience , the instructions there received , and improving and confirming into a stable resolution , those good affections and inclinations which were stirred up by it ; insomuch , that that man will either have no mind to gods publick service , or no suitable temper in it , or be little the better after it , that hath not first fitted and prepared his heart for it by secret devotion . and herein lies the true reason , as well of the lamentable unprofitableness as of the common irreverence of publick performances ; because men rush into gods house without the due preface of secret preparation , and they turn their backs upon god when they depart from the church , never attending to , or improving those good motions which the spirit of god had kindled in them . moreover , these devout offices of religion , though they are by no means to supplant and supersede the publick ( as we have intimated already , and shall demonstrate at large by and by ) yet in some respects they are more acceptable to god than the other ; forasmuch as they are founded upon an acknowledgment of his omniscience , and demonstrate the great and intimate sense we have of the divine majesty , and consequently of this they give the greatest assurance to our own hearts , of our sincerity , and so are the most comfortable : for publick devotion may possibly have a great alloy of secular interest , and may owe it self in a great measure to the authority of laws , or to publick fame and reputation ; but he that worships god in secret , where and when no eye is privy but only that of god almighty , is secure to himself , that he can have no mean or sinister end in so doing , nothing can move him to this but the mere reverence of god , and therefore our saviour in the forementioned passage , mat. 6. 6. lays an emphasis upon those words , thy father which is in secret , and adds this incouragement of such addresses to god , thy father which seeth in secret will reward thee openly . upon all which considerations let the man who either values gods glory , or his own improvement , peace and comfort , or indeed who makes any pretence to religion , strictly make conscience of , and constantly practise secret devotion . the nature , extent , manner , instances and circumstances whereof , i am now further to explain in the following particulars . 1. and i begin with that which is so universally acknowledged , and so principal a part of divine worship , that ( as i noted before ) it is ordinarily put for the whole , i mean prayer to god , touching the secret exercise whereof , let the good christian take these following directions . first , let him not fail night and morning ( at least ) solemnly and devoutly to pray to god : divers holy men we read of , who according to the greatness of their zeal , or urgency of the occasion for it , have prescribed to themselves stricter measures than this ; particularly , david saith he would worship god seven times in a day , and daniels custom was to do it three times a day , dan. 6. 10. as seems also to have been that of the primitive christians ; but less than twice a day i cannot find to agree with the practice of any good men , unless either sickness disabled them , or some very extraordinary occasion diverted them : and it is wondrously fit and decorous , that we , who owe our whole time to god , should pay him the tribute of devoting those critical periods of it ( i mean evening and morning ) to him , especially in consideration of the peculiar circumstances these two points of time are attended with , namely in the evening , having finished the course of that day , and reflecting upon our infirmities in it , we cannot but observe by how many failings we have justly incurred gods displeasure , if he should severely animadvert upon us ; and therefore have great cause to deprecate his anger , and to make our peace with him : and we must needs also be sensible both how many dangers we have escaped , by his providence , and how many instances of blessing we have received from his goodness , and therefore have reason to praise and magnify his name ; nd especially being then also to betake our selves to sleep , when above all times we are out of our own keeping , and are exposed to a thousand dangers from thieves , from malicious men , from violent elements of wind , fire and water , from the enterprizes of evil spirits , and frightful dreams , and our own foolish imaginations , in which and sundry other respects , no man knows what a night may bring forth , and in consideration of which , he is a stupidly secure , and fool-hardy person , that doth not think it highly to be his interest , by peculiar addresses , to recommend himself and all his concerns to the watchful eye of providence , which neither slumbers nor sleeps . and in the morning , having not only by the guard of holy angels been preserved from all those dangers which might have surprized us in the dark , and when our senses were so lockt up that we could not help our selves , but refreshed and recruited in all our powers by that admirable divine opiate , sleep ; nothing less can become us than to consecrate anew all these restored powers to our creator and preserver , by hearty adorations . besides this , we are then sensible that we are now entring upon a new scene of business , where we shall be exposed to innumerable accidents , dangers , difficulties , and temptations , none of which we are match for without divine assistance , and have therefore need to implore his grace and good providence before we encounter them , so that it is not timidity or superstitious fear , but just wisdom not to dare either to go to bed , or to set our foot out of doors , till we have recommended our selves to almighty god by prayer . and by so doing ( as aforesaid ) we maintain the juge sacrificium , and ( in gods gracious interpretation are said to ) pray continually , and to consecrate our whole time to him ; and besides , we keep up a lively and constant sense of him upon our hearts . secondly , let him be sure that these duties be done fervently as well as constantly and frequently , not formally and customarily , without life and feeling of what a man is about , or with wandring thoughts and distracted affections , but with the greatest vigour and intention of mind that is possible ; for if a mans heart be flat and remiss in these special approaches to god , he will be sure to be much worse , and even loose and atheistical upon other occasions ; for these secret duties are the special instruments and exercises of raising our hearts towards heaven , and as it were the nicking up of our watch to that cue in which we would have it go . in the more publick offices of religion the credit and reputation of it is principally concerned , and therefore they ought to be performed with all gravity and solemnity , but the very life and soul of piety lies in these secret duties , and therefore they ought to be discharged with the quickest sense and most inflamed affections ; insomuch that a man must not think he hath acquitted himself when he hath repeated such , or so many prayers , until he find also his heart warmed , and his temper of mind raised and improved by them ; to this purpose therefore , let him in the entrance upon these retirements place himself under the eye of god , and be apprehensive of the immediate presence of the divine majesty , that this may give check to all levity of spirit and wandering of thoughts , and make him grave and reverential ; let him also all along be sensible of the great value and necessity of those things which he either begs of god , or returns thanks for ; that this may render him ardent in his desires , and affectionate in his praises , and whilest he perseveres in these duties , let him join with them , reading and meditation , not only to fix his mind , but to prevent barrenness , and to impreganate and inrich his souls with divine notions and affections . to this end , thirdly , let him take care that he tempt not himself to flatness by an affected length of these holy duties ; for though it be a sign of an indevout temper to be too compendious and concise in them , as if we grudged the time spent in gods service ; and although it be also irreverent towards god to be so short and abrupt , as if we briefly dictated to him what we would have done ; yet it is to be guilty of the same fault , to be impertinently tedious with him , as if he could not understand us without many words , or would be wrought upon by tedious importunity . besides all this , it is to be considered , that often , when the spirit is willing , the flesh is weak , and that our bodies cannot always correspond with our minds : now in such a case to affect the prolonging of our devotions , is to lose in the intention what we get in the extension of them ; for it will be sure either to make us go unwillingly to our duty , or to perform it very superficially ; in either of which circumstances it is not likely we should be pleasing to god , or be able to make any comfortable reflections afterwards upon such performance . the measures of devotion therefore are not expresly prescribed by god , but are to be determined by a prudent respect to the peculiar constitution of the person , the condition of his affairs , and the extraordinariness of the occasion ; and to go about to exceed these bounds , is an argument of intemperate zeal , which is never acceptable to god , and is so far injurious to a mans self , that it manifestly hinders what it pretends to promote . to these i add , fourthly , let not the devout man be very curious or sollicitious about the from or expressions of his secret duties ; i mean , whether his prayers be read out of a book , or be the present conceptions of his own mind , so long as they are offered up from an understanding soul , and an humble and affectionate heart , for these are all the things that god looks at , and wherein his honour is directly concerned ; and therefore as he hath no value for eloquence of speech on the one hand , so neither hath he for strength of memory , or for pregnancy and variety of phancy on the other ; but only ( as i said ) that we worship him with our understanding , and do not like parrots , utter words whereof we have no sense or notion ; that we bring an humble and contrite spirit , as sensible of the infinite distance between him and us , and an heart seriously affected with his presence and the nature and value of the things we are conversant about . it is true , that a composed form is most sutable to publick worship , where ( as i noted before ) the dignity and credit of religion is concern'd , and that perhaps in private duties , our present conceptions may most please and affect our selves ; but our acceptance with god ( especially in these secret duties ) depends neither upon the one nor the other , but upon those inward dispositions of the soul aforesaid . wherefore let no man cheat himself into an opinion that those heats of phancy or transports of affection which sometimes happen in conceived prayer , are instances of real and extraordinary devotion ; or that because the use of a form or book may perhaps be destitute of such flights , therefore those duties are dead and formal : forasmuch as those services may be most acceptable to god which are less pleasant to our selves ; since it is not those sudden flashes but a constant and even servour of piety which he hath regard to . and this leads me to another advice , namely , fifthly , let the pious man think himself obliged to pray without ceasing , and that he is never to lay aside or intermit the regular course of a daily devotion upon any pretence whatsoever , but especially not upon the absurd pretext of awaiting the motion of the spirit ; for although it be true , that the spirit of god ceases not to move men to their duty , the way of the spirit of god is not to move sensibly , and to make violent impressions upon us ; and therefore he that suspends the performance of his duty till he is so jogged and stirred up to it , will never pray at all : and indeed what reason can there be to expect such a thing , or what need of it in the case of a known duty ? if it were the will of god to put us upon some extraordinary service , then it were reasonable to expect some special mandate or impulse upon our spirits from him , which might both warrant the enterprize , and quicken us in the prosecution ; but in ordinary duties , the motion of the holy spirit in the scripture , is and ought to be sufficient , and he that will not be stirred up by that , doth but pretend to wait for a spirit in excuse of his own atheism , unbelief , or intolerable slothfulness ; and in so doing lays himself open to an evil spirit , whose design it is to check and withdraw men from religion , and this is matter of sad and common experience , that from waiting for the motion of the spirit , men very usually grow first to frequent omissions , then to carelessness of their duty , and at last to a total neglect of it . therefore let not any man slight a regular and methodical devotion , as a meer formal and customary thing , since this is the very attainment of piety , when that which is matter of duty becomes also in a good sense customary and habitual ; and he that out of such a temper performs the duties of religion constantly and reverently , gives far greater proof of sincere christianity , than he that seems to himself to do them with greater heat and transport , but needs from time to time to be jogged and provoked to the performance . sixthly , to all these i adde in the last place , that it is very advisable , though not absolutely necessary , that in these secret devotions , a man should ( where it may be done with privacy , and without oftentation or such other impediment ) pray vocally and audibly ; for although god knows our hearts , and observes all our thoughts , and the motions of our affections before we express them , and therefore needs not that we should interpret our minds to him by words , yet it is fit we should imploy all the powers and capacities we have in his service ; our bodies as well as our souls , and our lips as well as our hearts . besides , though we cannot affect god with the tone and accents of our speech , yet we often times affect our own hearts the more , and raise them a note higher in concord with the elevation of our voices : but that which i principally intend is this , viz. by the harmony of our tongue and voice , our hearts are as it were charmed into the greater composure and intention upon that we are about . and so whereas it is the usual complaint , especially of melancholy and thoughtful persons , that their hearts are apt to rove and wander in these secret duties of religion , by this means we have it very much in our power to keep them from extravagancy , and at once to make our devotions the less tedious to our selves , and the more acceptable to god. chap. ii. of several other instances of secret devotion . though prayer be the most general duty of religion , the common instrument of all piety , and the most immediate address to god ; yet it is a great mistake to make it the only instance of secret devotion , for there are several others of great moment , amongst which i reckon in the next place , 2. study and meditation ; not only to direct and assist our prayers ( of which i said something before ) but especially to cultivate and improve our own minds , that we may be wiser , and consequently both more capable of doing god better service in this world , and also fitter for the society of angels and the conversation of the spirits of just men made perfect in the other world. for we are to consider , that god almighty hath set a mighty value upon our souls , in redeeming them by no less a price than the blood of his only son ; and therefore we should be intolerably ingrateful towards him , if we bestow no cost upon them , but live as if we were mere matter and body , and take care only to please and gratify our senses , and in the mean time abandon our minds to folly and ignorance , to sloth and superstition . we are to consider also , that the same infinite goodness hath by the same purchace deliver'd us from the fear of eternal death , which otherwise would have kept us in perpetual bondage , and so have contracted our spirits , and rendered our very selves so inconsiderable to our selves , that no man could have had the heart to take any care of himself , but would be tempted to have lived like a beast because he expected to die like one , or worse ; but now that we are made to hope for immortality , and to live for ever and ever , there is great reason a man should spare no cost , no labour and pains about himself , since he may reap the fruit and enjoy the comfort of so doing in the better enjoyment of himself a thousand ages hence , and to all eternity . moreover the same divine goodness hath designed us to a glorious estate of happiness in his own kingdom of heaven , a state of intellectual pleasure , and the most sublimed ingredients of felicity , which a dull , sottish , and sensual soul can never be capable of perceiving , if he were placed in the midst of them , and therefore he is more than brutish that doth not dispose himself so , that he may be meet , to partake of that inheritance with the saints in light . to all this we are to consider , that the general apostafy of mankind hath weaken'd our natures , clouded our understanding , and disorder'd all our powers ; and together herewith the foolish opinions and traditions of the world have abused and deceived us yet more and more , so that we must be most silly and unhappy creatures , if we do not indeavour to deliver and disingage our selves from both these calamities . and the case is not totally irreparable in respect of either of these mischiefs , if we be not wanting to our selves ; for to the intent that we might in some measure recover our selves , it hath pleased god to give us time to consider in privacy and retirement from the noise of the world , that we may recollect our selves ; he hath set before us his works and providence to meditate upon , we have his holy scriptures to inlighten our minds , and guide us out of the perplexed state of things we enjoy , the publick ministry and abundance of good books to help us to understand those scriptures , and above all we are assured of the assistances of his holy spirit against the weakness and confusion of our own understandings . so that as there is great reason and great necessity that we should apply our selves to study and meditation ; so we have as great incouragement to hope for success in so doing : for by application of our selves to the means aforesaid , we may not only rid our selves of that wildness and ferity which is ordinarily upon our natures , but outgrow vulgar opinion and tradition , and come to be able to make a true estimate of things set before us ; we may greaten our spirits so as to despise those little things which silly men dote upon ; we may free our minds of childish fears and unaccountable superstitions ; we may understand the true reason of religion , the loveliness of virtue , and in a word , have worthier notions of god , and clearer apprehensions of the world to come . and although it be acknowledged that all men are not alike capable of these improvements , either by reason of the weakness of their minds , or the unhappy constitution of their bodies , or the perplexed condition of their outward affairs ; yet certainly god almighty hath by the means aforesaid put it into every mans power to be wiser than he is if he would but apply himself to the use of them , and therefore let the devout man be sure to make the experiment . to further him the more wherein , let him to all the considerations foregoing adde these two following . first , that forasmuch as he was made in gods image , it is no less than a contempt of the divine majesty to have no regard to the cultivating and adorning that part of himself wherein he especially resembles his maker ; and consequently it will appear to him to be a very fit and proper instance of worship towards god to improve his own soul ; and therefore it is here justly placed amongst the expressions of devotion . secondly , let him consider , that the great game of eternity is but once to be plaid , and that there is no retrieving of our neglects and carelessness afterwards ; therefore there is all the reason in the world that we should play it intently and warily : my meaning is , that therefore we ought to redeem time from folly and sensuality , and apply it to the advantage of our souls ; and he that doth so , and begs gods blessing upon it , will undoubtedly find his mind inlarged , his life more regular , and his spirit more comfortable , which are all the chief ends of devotion . 3. the next instance of secret devotion ( for i am not curious in what order i place them ) shall be the exercise of faith in god and dependance upon him , in pursuance of an acknowledgment that he alone governs the world , and the framing a mans heart to take notice of him , to have recourse to him , and stay it self upon him in all exigencies , and accidents and passages whatsoever , that he may impute nothing to chance , fate or the stars , but possess himself with a deep and setled apprehension of the great interest of god in all revolutions or occurrences . this is a point of great and real honour to the divine majesty , as it sets god always before us , and places him continually in our eye , as it brings us to an intire resignation of our selves to his dispose and puts us into a constant gravity and a reverence towards him , as it provokes us to address our selves to him upon all occasions , to pray to him , to trust in him , to walk humbly and thankfully before him . and it is of mighty advantage to our selves , as it strengthens and fortifies our weak spirits by the contemplation of that mighty providence we are under , and that we are protected by a wise , and good , and powerful being , whom nothing can be too hard for , and who is liable to no surprize or mistake , as it assures us , that nothing befals without him , and therefore every thing is ordained for wise ends , and shall be turned to good in the conclusion ; this also inables us to be contented in every condition , secure against all fears , and to arrive at such an evenness of spirit , that we shall not be tost with every accident , hurried by every emergency , but possess our selves in patience and tranquility . and consequently this must needs be a very worthy entertainment of our retirements , and such as deserves and requires the application of our minds to it , that we may be under the power of this perswasion , and be able to answer to our selves the atheistical objections against it , to give some account of the intricacy and obscure passages of providence , without ( some skill in ) which it will be very difficult , if not impossible , to walk either piously or comfortably ; but by this exercise we hold continual conversation with god , we live and walk with him , he is always at hand to us , to awe us , to support and comfort us , and our hearts become not only a temple where we solemnly offer up our services at set times to him , but an altar where the holy fire never goes out , but sends up constantly the sweet odours of prayers and praises to him . 4. another exercise of secret devotion is to premeditate our conversation , and so to forecast the occurrences of life , that we may conduct our selves both with safety to our souls , and to the best advantage of our spiritual interests ; forasmuch as he that lives ex tempore ( as we say ) and unpremeditately , will neither be able to avoid the dangers which will be sure to encounter him , nor to improve the opportunities which may offer themselves to him . in our converse in this world we must expect temptations from the devil , allurements from sensual objects , provocations from the folly or malice of evil men , vexations by unhappy accidents , and above all abundance of evil examples to debauch and corrupt us ; and that man will most certainly be surprized by some or all of these , that doth not forecast them : and arm himself against them , and therefore a wise man will not adventure to go abroad and take in the infectious air of the world , till he hath antidoted himself against the danger , by the advantages of retirement , and the secret exercises of devotion . to this purpose he will before he goes out of his closet , not only consider the common calamities of the world , the reigning sins of the age , but the especial difficulties of his calling and profession , and the peculiar infirmities of his own temper ; and withal will forethink and prepare himself against such efforts as by reason of any of these may be made upon him . if he can foresee that he shall unavoidably fall into evil company , he will first indeavour to warm and affect his heart with the quicker sense of religion , that he may not only take no hurt himself , but ( if it be possible ) imprint some sense of good upon those he converses with . if any thing be likely to happen that will strike him with melancholy , he will first go to god by prayer for strength and constancy of mind , and indeavour to fix his heart so intently upon another world , as that the occurrences of this may not discompose him . if he be likely to meet with that which may provoke him to anger , he will compose himself to as great a coolness as possibly he can , that no passage may inflame him . if any allurement to sensuality present it self , he will consider how he may retreat into grave company , or earnest business , that so he may decline that which is not easily to be withstood . and on the other side concerning opportunities of doing or receiving good ; forasmuch as every wise man is sensible that the seasons of things are no more in his power than the time of his life is , that no enterprize succeeds well which is not nicked with a fit season , and that it is impossible to recal it when it is slipped by ; therefore the pious man will forethink what may offer themselves probably in such circumstances as he stands in , lest he should overlook them when they present , and so he lose an advantage of doing glory to god , or good to men , and of promoting the interest of his own soul , and accordingly will dispose his heart in secret to apprehend them , and to improve them ; he examines his capacity , and stirs up his attention , and projects the means , either how he may reap some benefit by good and wise company , or how he may seasonably interpose a word on gods behalf in common conversation , or how he may do some good thing that will turn to account another day . 5. but if either by the neglect of such opportunities as aforesaid , the pious man omit the doing of some good he might have done , or by security of conversation he fall into any of those dangers he ought to have watcht against , then there is a fifth great work for private devotion , for in this case there lies a double care upon him ; first , that he slight not his danger , and secondly , that he despair not of remedy , but be both deeply sensible of his miscarriage , and also rise again with indignation and resolution . first , that he slight not his fault ( as generally men do by the plea of example , or the pretence of humane infirmity ) and so harden himself in his sin , but feel a deep remorse , and conceive a mighty displeasure against himself for it . secondly , that on the other side he aggravate not his guilt to such a degree as to preclude repentance by despairing of the divine mercy , but presently flee to the grace of the gospel , and implore gods pardon , with setled purposes never to offend in the like kind again . now neither of these are done as they ought to be , but in retirement , viz. when a man hath opportunity of dealing impartially between god and his own soul , and therefore ( especially because the occasions of them often happen ) are justly reckonable as a part of closet devotion , and accordingly they are represented by the holy psalmist , psal . 4. 4. stand in awe and sin not , commune with your own hearts in your chamber , and be still , &c. wherefore let every man that hath any sense of god upon him be throughly perswaded to set some time apart for this purpose , that he may romage his own heart , and find out all the evils of his life ; and when he hath discovered any particular guilt upon his soul , let him not forsake his closet , and depart out of gods presence till he have affected himself with deep sorrow and contrition for his sin , and prostrated himself at the throne of grace with strong and earnest cries for pardon , and until he have confirmed his heart in a resolution of watchfulness and more strict obedience for the time to come . and let him do this often , that he may not run up too big a score , and so either his heart become hardened through the deceitfulness of sin , or his conscience be so affrighted with the greatness of his guilt , that like a bankrupt he be tempted to decline looking into his accounts , because he can have no comfortable prospect of them , or run away from god in a fit of desperation , instead of running to him by repentance . let him , i say , do this often , not by chance or unwillingly , but frequently and periodically ( set times being appointed for it ) and though i would be loth to impose a burden upon the consciences of men , yet i think it ordinarily very adviseable , that this be done once a month , viz. whilest a man hath his past actions and carriage in remembrance , and can take a just account of himself ; but especially it is very fit to do it against the time of the administration of the holy sacrament , and then would be extraordinarily proper and seasonable : for these two things , self-examination and partaking of the lords supper , do marvellously suit and answer to each other ; the former preparing a mans heart for that sacred solemnity , and that holy solemnity sealing to him the pardon of those sins he hath discovered and repented of in secret . but whether this work of self-reflection and ransacking a mans own heart in secret be absolutely necessary to be done at certain times and periods , it is wonderfully useful , that it be seriously and conscientiously practised some time or other ; forasmuch as on the one side it is not conceivable how a man should be able to maintain an holy and comfortable life without it ; so on the other hand it seems equally impossible that he should continue to be an evil man who habitually and sincerely practises it : for as there is no way so effectual to preserve an estate from being squandred away extravagantly , as the keeping constant and strict accounts of receits and expences , so there is no method more powerful to restrain sin than this of self-examination ; the very searching into our hearts jogs and awakens conscience , and that being rowsed , will be a faithful monitor of all that was done amiss , the mere prospect of which will make a man very uneasy , by the fears and horrors that attend it ; the consideration of the silly motives upon which a man was induced to sin , will fill him with ingenuous shame and indignation , and the easiness ( which he cannot but find ) of withstanding such motions , by the grace of god will provoke him to a resolution of amendment ; in a word , the sight and knowledge of the disease is a great step to the cure , and an heart well searched is half healed . but this leads me to another instance of great affinity with what we have now been speaking of , and which shall be the last excercise of secret devotion which i will here make mention of , viz. 6. trial of our proficiency and growth in grace , this is of great importance ; forasmuch as ( we have seen before ) the truth of grace is scarcely any otherway discernible but by its progress , and in that it makes men daily better and better , for the essences of things are indiscernible , and a man may endlesly dispute with himself whether such or such a thing be a sign of grace , and of spiritual life in him , till he puts all out of controversy by the fruits and improvement of such a vital principle ; and therefore it is extreamly necessary , if we will arrive at spiritual comfort , that we make experiment of our selves in this particular , which can no otherwise be done than by retirement into the cabinet of our hearts , and the diligent comparing our selves both with our selves and with the rules of the gospel . the common estimation of the world is a very fallacious and improper measure of divine life , and as the apostle tells us , it is a small thing to be judged of men one way or other , but if our hearts condemn us not , then have we confidence towards god ; for they being privy to our ends and designs and to all our circumstances as well as to matter of fact , cannot nor will not deceive us , if they be secretly examined , and therefore must be impartially consulted , if we would indeed know our selves , and be able to prejudge our own condition . now the testimony which our hearts can give us of our spiritual improvement , is not to be grounded upon the increased length of our prayers , nor merely from the passion and earnestness of them ; for the former of these may be the effect of hypocrisy , and the latter may proceed from some peculiar temper of body or outward accident ; nor upon our affectionate hearing of sermons , for the stony ground received the seed with joy as well as the good ground ; nor yet upon a more than ordinary scrupulosity of conscience ( especially in smaller matters ) for this may proceed from ignorance , superstition or hypocrisy . but the safest decision of this great case , whether we grow in grace or no , is to be made by examining our hearts in such points as these following , viz. whether we be more constant in all the duties of religion than formerly ? whether we be more exact and regular in our lives daily ? whether our hearts be more in heaven than they were wont , and that we have arrived at a greater contempt of the world ? whether we are more dead to temptation , especially in the case of such sins as agree with our constitution and circumstances ? whether affliction be more easy than it used to be , and we can better submit to the yoke of christ ? whether we are more conscientious of secret sins , and such as no eye of man can take notice of and upbraid us for ? whether we are more sagacious in apprehending , and more careful of improving opportunities of doing good than heretofore ? in a word , whether we are grown more meek , more humble and obedient to our superiours , &c. if upon due inquiry , oru hearts can answer affirmatively for us in such points as these , then we may comfortably conclude , that we have not received the grace of god in vain , which being of unspeakable consequence to us to be substantially resolved of , self-examination in the aforesaid particulars ( as the only way to arrive at it ) ought to have its share in our closet devotions . chap. iii. of family-piety in general . though the consideration of gods almighty power , wisdom , goodness , and his other perfections , together with our dependance upon him , and obnoxiousness to him , be the first reason and ground of religion ( as we have already shewed ) and so the divine majesty is the immediate and principal object of it ; yet notwithstanding this is not so to be understood , as if the obligations of religion extended no further than to acts of worship or address to god : for it is as much our duty to manage our selves well towards others for gods sake , as towards him for his own sake . and therefore ( as hath been intimated heretofore ) true piety in its just dimensions comprizes no less than a worthy discharge of our selves in all those relations divine providence hath placed us in . now next to our obligations to our creator and preserver , and next to our concern for the better part of our selves , our own souls , a man stands related to his family so nearly , that he is wanting in both the former that is negligent of this . almighty wisdom and goodness pronounced it not fit for man to be alone , and therefore the first provision he made against the uncomfortable state of solitude , was to enter him into the society of a family ; partly , that in so near a station , they might mutually relieve and help one another in difficulties , entertain one another by discourse , and improve one anothers reason ; partly , that in this conjunction they might fortify one anothers spirits against all ill accidents , or the enterprizes of wicked and malicious spirits more powerful than themselves ; but principally , that they might mutually provoke and inflame one anothers hearts to admiration , love and reverence of their great creator . and this end is so great and the injunction of it so strict , that every man in this society stands charged with the soul of another , and is accountable for it , at least so far , that he cannot be excusable that doth not indeavour to bring those with whom he so intimately converses , and upon whom he hath so many opportunities , to a sense and regard of god and religion . and this especially concerns those that are heads of families ; forasmuch as by virtue of their place they have always been accounted , not only kings and governours , but also prophets and priests within their peculiar sphere and province . accordingly we find it to have been the constant care and practice of all good men in all ages , to train up those of their families in the knowledge of the true god , and the exercises of true religion : particularly god himself testifies of abraham , gen. 18 — 19. that he knew he would command his children and his houshold after him that they keep the way of the lord , &c. and job 1. 5. we find it to have been the continual care of that holy man to sanctify his children and family , and daily to intercede with god for them by sacrifice . deut. 6. 6. it is an express injunction upon the children of israel , that they not only keep the laws of god in their own hearts , but that they should teach them diligently to their children , and talk of them when they sate in their houses , and when they walked by the way , &c. that is , that they should convey and imprint a sense of god and his religion upon the minds of those they familiarly conversed with . and so great is the authority and influence of governours of families , and so powerful is good example in this particular , that josh . 24. 15. joshua undertakes for his family , that they should serve the lord , whether other people would do so or no. david often declares his zeal for the maintenance of religion in his family , so far , that he resolves those persons should be excluded his house that made no conscience of god , and most remarkably , 1 chr. 28. 9. he gives this solemn charge to his son solomon , thou solomon my son , know thou the god of thy father , and serve him with a perfect heart , and with a willing mind ; for the lord searcheth all hearts , and understandeth all the imagination of the thoughts : if thou seek him he will be found of thee , but if thou forsake him he will cast thee off for ever . and for the times of the new testament there is abundant evidence , that it was the constant practice of all those who had a sense of religion in their hearts , to set it up in their families also , of which the testimonies are so many , and so ready at hand , that it is needless here to recite them ; and the success was commonly answerable to the indeavour : from whence it comes to pass that acts 10. 2. it is said of cornelius , that he was not only a devout man and prayed to god always , but that he feared the lord with all his house , i. e. his example , prayers and instruction prevailed upon all those that were under the influence of them , to bring them to ( at least ) a profession of piety also ; upon which account it is further observable , that generally when any governour of a family imbraced the christian faith , and was converted to that religion , it is said that such an one believed and all his house , or he and all his house were baptized , namely , because truly good men did not fail by their example and endeavours to bring those over to the same religion which themselves were heartily perswaded of , and accordingly we see it often come to pass in these times wherein we live , that several persons very heartily bless god that his providence disposed them into such or such pious families wherein the foundation of their eternal happiness hath been laid , by the means of the instructive and exemplary devotion which they have there been under the advantages of ; upon consideration of all which reasons , examples and incouragements , and several others which might with great ease have been added , let no good christian be of so monastick a spirit as to extend his care no farther than his own cell , and to think he hath acquitted himself well enough when he hath discharged the offices of his closet , and hath kept religion glowing in his own heart ; but think it his duty to take care that his light shine quite through his house , and that his zeal warm all his family . in order to which we will here consider these three things . first , of the several members which usually a family consists of , and which are concern'd in its discipline . secondly , the several duties of piety which especially become and concern a family . and thirdly , by what means the members of a family may be brought to comply with all those duties . 1. first , the ordinary relations of a family ( especially as it signifies those which dwell or converse together under the same roof ) are husband and wife , parent and children , master and servant , friend and friend ; and all these i take to be comprized in those several passages of the acts of the apostles , where it is said , that such a man and all his house were converted or baptized , for there are great interests of religion which intercede between every of these ; as for the relation of husband and wife , as it is the nearest and strictest that can be , so consequently it is of mighty importance to their mutual comfort , and a wonderful indearment of affections , when both the relatives are animated with the same spirit of religion , and promote the eternal interest of one another : as it is vastly mischievous and unhappy when those who are inseparably yoked together , draw divers ways , one towards heaven , and the other towards hell ; in respect of which danger the apostle advises those who are free not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers , 2 cor. 6. 14. for saith he , what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness ? what communion hath light with darkness ? what concord hath christ with belial ? and what part hath he that believeth , with an infidel ? yet because it is possible , that light may prevail against darkness , therefore when such an unequal society is contracted , he doth not think it a sufficient ground for separation ; for saith he , 1 cor. 7. 16. what knowest thou , o wife , but thou maist save thy husband ? or what knowest thou , o man , whether thou shalt save thy wife ? especially since by the piety of one of the parents , the children are sanctified and placed under the advantages of the covenant of grace , as he there adds , v. 14. and seeing it is possible for one of these relatives to be so great a blessing to the other , there is mighty reason they both should endeavour it , out of self-love as well as charity and conjugal affection , since it is both very difficult to go to heaven alone , and also equally easy and comfortable , when those in this relation join hearts and hands in the way thither . as for the relation of parents and children , that is also very near and intimate , and consequently their interest and happiness is bound up together ; for as it is a mighty advantage to have holy parents , in regard the posterity of such persons ordinarily fare the better to many generations , as is assured in the second commandment , and therefore there is a double obligation upon parents to be good and virtuous , not only for the sake of their own souls , but also for the sake of their children ; so on the other hand , it is no less glory and comfort to parents to have good and pious children , and therefore they are strictly charged to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the lord ; and indeed he is worse than an infidel , nay worse than a brute , that can be content to bring them up to hell and the devil ; for they are part of our selves , and a man that considers any thing , can as well be willing to be damned himself , as that they should be so if he can help it . now that there is much in their power this way , appears by that charge of the apostle last named , as also by the observation of solomon , prov. 22. 6. train up a child in the way he should go , and when he is old he will not depart from it ; for children in their young and tender years are like wax , yielding and pliable to whatsoever form we will put them into , but if we miss this opportunity it will be no easy matter to recover them to good afterwards , when they are debauched by evil principles , confident of their own opinions , headstrong by the uncontrouled use of liberty , and hardened by the custom of sinning . and therefore it is observable , that far the most part of good men and women are such as had the foundations of piety laid in their youth , and very few are to be found who were effectually reclaimed afterwards . but whilest children wholly depend upon their parents , and their natures are soft and pliant , when as yet they have not the hardiness to rebel , nor the confidence to dispute the commands of their fathers ; so long they may by the grace of god easily be wrought upon to good , and which is very remarkable , the influence of the mother is especially considerable in this case : for so we find not only that king lemuel , prov. 31. 1. remembred the lessons which his mother taught him , but as i have noted before , timothy was seasoned with grace , by the instructions of his mother eunice , and his grandmother lois , 2 tim. 1. 5. and many other instances there are of the successfulness of the mothers pious indeavours . but where parents neglect their duty , usually the children perish , and their blood will be required at the hands of careless parents : and which is more , there is commonly this dreadful token of divine vengeance in this world , that those who are careless of their duty both towards god , and towards their children in this particular , feel the sad effects of it in the undutifulness , contumacy , and rebellion of those children against themselves afterwards , as if god permitted them to revenge his quarrel . in the next place , as for the relation of master and servants , it is a mighty mistake to think they are meerly our slaves to do our will , and that nothing is due from us to them but what is expresly bargain'd for , since they are or ought to be gods servants as well as ours , and must do him service as well as us , and they are put under our protection , and placed in our families , that they may be instructed in his pleasure , and have the liberty to serve him , of whom the whole family of heaven and earth is called . so that properly speaking , we and they are common servants to one great master , only in different ranks , as the one part ( after the manner of stewards ) is allowed to have servants under them , and the other must do the inferiour business , but still they are gods servants more properly than ours , and must therefore have not only ( as i said ) liberty and leisure to serve our common master , but also instructions from us and incouragement so to do : and he that denies them any of these , might as justly deny them their . bread or their wages ; nay more , he that forgets to pray for them too , remembers himself but by halves , forasmuch as his interest is concerned , not only in their health and prosperity , but in their virtue and piety ; for it is evident , that the better men they are , the better servants they will prove . so st. paul tells philemon in his epistle to him , that he would be a gainer by onesimus's conversion , for that he would be so much a more profitable servant henceforth as he was now become a better man , such persons being not only the most faithful and trusty , but by so much the more industrious as they are the more conscientious : besides , that it is well known that divine providence often blesses a family for the sake of a pious servant , as god blessed labans substance for the sake of jacob , and the house and all the affairs of potiphar for the piety of joseph . so that in short , he loves himself as little as he loves god , who doth not indeavour that his servants should be sincerely religious . and though it 's true , it is not altogether in his power to make them so , or to put grace into their hearts , yet by virtue of his place and authority , he hath mighty advantages of doing them good , and will be sure to be called to account how he hath improved his stewardship in this particular . lastly , in a family there are commonly some who under the general relation of friends or acquaintance , are either resident in it , or at least hospitably entertained by it ; now as this lays an obligation upon the persons treated , so it gives some authority to him who treats them : and consequently as such a master of a family is in some measure answerable towards men for the scandals and misdemeanours of his guests ; so is he much more responsible to god for any profaneness they shall be guilty of towards his divine majesty . for ( as i said before ) every man being king in his own family may give laws to it , and oblige those who are under his protection to pay him allegiance , and to serve and worship god with him , especially he ought to do this , because the fourth commandment requires at our hands that we use this authority , not only over our sons and daughters , our man-servants and maid-servants , but over all those that are within our gates . but so much in the general , let us now consider in the second place the particular duties of religion in a family ; of which in the next chapter . chap. iv. of family duties in special . in the first place i look upon it as the duty of every family , that ( besides closet-devotions , of which i have spoken before ; and besides publick worship , of which i shall speak anon ) once a day at the least they join together in prayers to god. i say once a day at the least , in favour of mens occasions , and the peculiar circumstances of some families , were it not for which , it would be very fit that there should be prayers morning and evening , as is the general practice of most pious families ; but certainly it is wonderfully decent , that all the members of every family should once in the day meet together , and with one heart and one mouth glorify god and pay their homage to the great master of the whole family of heaven and earth ; and it is very strange , if any excuse should be pleaded or admitted in this case . for as i said before , every several family is a peculiar body or society , which hath its distinct circumstances , effects and consideration ; it hath its respective needs to be supplied , and therefore hath occasion to make proper and peculiar requests to god , as that he will be pleased to continue it in health , to settle concord and unity amongst the several members of it , that the whole may enjoy prosperity and safety from thieves , from fire and other dangers . and every such society hath also proper and peculiar mercies to give thanks to god for , as namely for success in affairs , for quiet habitation , that they are not molested with ill neighbours , nor vexed with law-suits , for hopeful children , faithful servants , &c. for in several of these respects a man may be well and comfortable in his own person , and yet be unhappy in the society ; and contrarywise the society or family may be happy in the general , and yet a particular person may be in ill circumstances : and therefore there is just reason of addresses and acknowledgments to god in relation to the family , and by the whole family in conjunction , as well as by every single person apart , and in his closet . and though perhaps there may be some family wherein there is no person who can aptly and properly represent the peculiar concerns of it to the almighty , and it may be also there is no form of prayer at hand that will express all the respective circumstances of such a society ; yet they may lift up their hearts and voices together in a general form , and supply with their thoughts and affections whatsoever is wanting in the expressions . and as there is just ground and reason for such family worship , so there is good cause to expect it will be singularly successful , when the whole community joins together , and present themselves and their tribute of praise before the lord : no question but the very manner of doing it , as well as the matter , will be highly acceptable to him ; and when with prostrate bodies , devout hearts and hands , and eyes lift up to heaven , they combine together to importune , and as it were , besiege the almighty , they cannot fail of a blessing ; or however it is a mighty satisfaction to the minds of all such persons , and a great security to them that they have thus jointly and solemnly commended themselves to the divine protection . besides , that this course is an effectual means to conciliate peace and love and kindness , between all the members of this body , and to knit their hearts to one another , when they are thus accustomed to unite their hearts and join their hands in gods service , and conspire to pray with and for each other , which is the greatest indearment of affection . perhaps some man will now say , there is no express scripture which requires of men this daily office of family prayer : to which i answer , first , what if it were so , yet nevertheless it is a duty , seeing there is so apparent reason for it . for god who considered , that he gave laws to reasonable men , did not think himself bound to prescribe every thing in particular , especially in natural worship , where the reason of man might supply him with direction what was fit to be done in such a case . besides , secondly , ( as i discoursed in the former part of this treatise ) it is a stingy and narrow-soul'd trick , and an argument of no true love to god and goodness , to stand upon so strict terms in our piety , as to require an express command in particular , for that which is admirably good in the general , and hath also been the general practice of all good men , as this hath been . but after all , i would in the last place crave leave to ask those men a plain question , who insist upon more express proof of family prayers , and it is no more but this , whether they think there is any such thing as publick worship required of men ? if they do , then let them remember there was a time when there was no more publick society than that of families , namely at the first planting of the world , and then either publick worship must be this of families or none at all ; and to inlighten them in this case , let them consider that passage , gen. 4. 26. when seth had enos born to him , it is said , then began men to call upon the name of the lord , that is , so soon as there began to be a family in the pious line of seth , then presently they set up gods worship in it . now this was not the beginning of secret worship , for no doubt but seth was careful of that before enos was born ; nor was it properly publick or ecclesiastick worship , for in that minority of the world , there neither was nor as yet could be any church established in such a sense : therefore it must follow that family worship is as antient as the being of families themselves . or let pious and ingenious persons consider of that passage of the gospel , luke 11. 1. where in the first place we find our saviour was at prayers ; and that it was not secret prayer but with his disciples , is more than probable , since they were present at them : and accordingly , when he had concluded , one of them asks him to instruct them how to pray . now if this be acknowledged , then here is our saviours example for what we are discoursing of , forasmuch as the disciples with whom he was at prayer , were his family . but that which i observe further is , they ask him to teach them to pray , as john taught his disciples , that is , to prescribe them a form wherein they ( who were his family ) might join together , as the family or disciples of john did ; or not only to pray severally or secretly , but in conjunction and society : and this our saviour gratifies them in , by prescribing to them the well-known and admirable form : in which these two things are further remarkable to this purpose ; first , that the prayer is in the plural number , which renders it far more probable , that it was intended for a social office . for though some other account may be given of his using that number , yet nothing is so natural as this reason which i have intimated . secondly , the very petitions themselves ( if they be considered ) will incline a man to think , that though the prayer was contrived with infinite wisdom to fit other purposes , yet it was primarily intended for the use of a family or society , especially such an one as this of our saviours disciples was ; but so much for that . 2. the next instance of family duty is the sanctification of the lords day , and other days and times set apart for his service . as for the lords day , though it be undoubtedly true , that as the jewish sabbath ( which is our saturday ) is not obliging to christians at all ; so neither are we bound to observe any day with that sabbatical nicety and strictness , which ( for special reasons ) was required of that people : yet that the first day of the week , or the lords day , be observed piously and devoutly , is recommended to us by the constant practice of the christian church . and the sanctification of it principally consists in this , that we make it a day peculiar for the offices of piety and devotion , as other days are for common and secular affairs ; for though the business of religion must be carried on every day of our lives , and that be a profane day indeed in which god hath not some share allowed for his service , yet as god hath not required that it be the whole work of those days , but after a little of the time be consecrated to him , the residue be applied to the common affairs of life ; so on the lords day we are allowed to consult our infirmity , to provide for necessity , and to do works of humanity or mercy : but the proper business of the day is religion , and to that the main of it must be applied . and there is great reason for this , namely by this interruption of the course of worldly affairs , in some measure to take our hearts off from them ; for we should hardly avoid sinking absolutely into the cares and business of this life , if we went on in a continual course , and were not obliged at certain intervals of time to retreat from them , and betake our selves to things of another nature , by which means also , we begin to practise an heavenly sabbatism , and inure our selves by degrees to those spiritual imployments which we are to enter upon , and be everlastingly performing in another world. let therefore the pious man thus sanctify the lords day by applying it to holy uses , that is ( besides publick worship ) to reading , meditation , singing of psalms , and grave discourses of religion , and let him according as he hath warrant from the fourth commandment oblige all those within his gates to do so too , and not only restrain his family from common labours , but from lightness and folly , tipling and gossipping , idle visits and impertinent talking of news ; and use his indeavour to ingage them to be as much in earnest about the service of god and their souls on that day , as they are about their business or pleasure on other days . as for other holy days set apart by the appointment of the church , there is very good use to be made of them too : for besides , that the great festivals are the ignorant mans gospel , and bring to his mind all the great passages of our saviour and his apostles , it is certain also , that god hath not so strictly tasked us to the labour of six days , as that he will not be better pleased if we now and then apply some of them to his honour , and make a sally towards heaven ; but then the observation of these days is not to be made merely a relaxation from servile work , nor much less a dispensation for looseness and profaneness , but god must be served on them with greater diligence than can be ordinarily expected on other days . and this is another branch of the pious mans duty in his family . 3. there is another thing i would mention in the third place , amongst family exercises , which i do not call a necessary duty , but would offer it to consideration , whether it be not adviseable in some cases for the promotion of family piety , that in every family , where it can be done , some persons should be incouraged to take notes of the sermons which are preached in the church , and repeat them at home ; forasmuch as this course would not only afford a very seasonable and excellent entertainment for the family in the intervals of publick worship on the lords day , but would also be very advantagious , both to minister and people . for the minister , it would incourage him to study and to deliver weighty things , when he saw his words were not likely to perish in the hearing , and be lost in the air , but be reviewed and considered of ; by which means one sermon would be as good as two , and might serve accordingly . for the people , it would put the most ordinary sort of them upon considering and indeavouring to remember and make something of that which is delivered to them , when they observe , that some of the ablest of the congregation think it worth their pains to take so exact notice of it as to write it down ; at least they would be ashamed to snore and yawn , when others are so intent and serious . and as for the family in which the repetition is made , they would have further occasion to observe , with what clearness and evidence the doctrine was inferred from the text , opportunity to weigh the arguments used to inforce it , and be put upon making application of all to their own consciences . but i foresee several objections ( such as they are ) will be made against this ; it will be said , this course is unfashionable and puritanical , that experience hath discovered that writing after sermons hath taught men to be conceited and captious , and presently sets up men for lay-preachers ; and in a word , that repeating sermons raised the rebellion . but in answer to the first of these , i observe , that it is neither unusual nor under any ill character in courts of judicature , for men to take notes of the reasonings , determinations , and even the opinions of the judges ; and surely religion is of as much moment as the municipal laws ; and cases of conscience are of as great consequence as meum and tuum : but if the discourses of preachers be not so considerate , their reasonings not so close and weighty , nor their determinations so well grounded as to be worth noting , the more is the pity , to say no more . as for the second objection , i answer , that if the preacher handle only the indisputable doctrines of christianity , and press them home and close upon the consciences of men , these will afford little scope for conceitedness or captiousness ; but some men that are of such an humour will be pragmatical and profane , whether they write after sermons or no , and therefore let us lay this blame where it is due . to the third objection it is answered , that though writing after sermons might perhaps furnish men with materials for lay-preaching ; yet it was impudence which disposed men to it , and the dissolution of government which gave opportunity for it : and if the last of these three things be taken care of , the second will be curbed , and the first harmless and innocent . but lastly , whereas it is objected that writing and repeating of sermons was accessary to the late rebellion : i answer , that it is evident , it could be neither the writing nor the repeating , but the seditious matter of the sermons that was in the fault ; for it is certain , that good and pious sermons are the most effectual way to prevent all mischief of that kind , tending to make good subjects as well as good christians , and the writing and repeating of such sermons is a means to settle such doctrine the deeper in the hearts of men , and therefore i see not but that it would be good prudence to apply that to a good end which hath been abused to a bad one , unless we will countenance the humour of some late reformers , whose method was to abolish things for the abuse of them . upon the whole matter , i see no just discouragement from this instance of family-devotion ; however i will say no more of it , but proceed to such as are unexceptionable . 4. it is certainly a family duty to instruct all the young and ignorant persons in it , in the substantial doctrines of religion , and rules of good life . the obligation to , and the advantages of this office , have been sufficiently represented before in the foregoing chapter ; now therefore only to speak briefly and plainly of the manner of discharging it , it comprises these following particulars . first , that care be taken betimes to subdue the unruly wills and passions of children ; which is ordinarily not very hard to do if it be minded time enough , whilest they are tender and pliable , but the defect herein ( like an errour in the first concoction ) is hardly remediable afterwards : accordingly the wise man adviseth , prov. 19. 18. chasten thy son whilest there is hope , and let not thy soul spare for his crying : by breaking his stomach now , we prevent the breaking of our own hearts hereafter ; for by this means with the blessing of god upon it , we shall have comfort in a child , and the state and publick society , a governable subject ; whereas contrariwise stubborness and malapertness in youth grows to contemptuousness of parents , & to faction and sedition in the state , in age . in pursuance of this , secondly , let them learn and be accustomed humbly to beg the blessing of their parents and progenitors ; this ( as meanly as some inconsiderate people think of it ) is of mighty use : for it not only teaches children to reverence their parents , but wonderfully provokes and inflames the affections of parents towards them ; and besides this , it is the usual method of conveying the blessings of god upon them : for though it be only god that bestows the blessing , yet his way is to use the intervention and designation of parents , and generally those whom they bless ( in this case ) are blessed , and those whom they curse are cursed . thirdly , then let them learn to read , to pray , and especially to say their catechise ; for though these things are not throughly understood by them now , yet they will stick by them , and be remembred when they are more capable of improving them : insomuch that it will be uneasy to one that hath been well principled in his minority , to be impious and profane hereafter ; or if he should prove so , there will yet be some hopes of reclaiming him , because these things will some time or other revive and awaken his conscience . fourthly , after this , let them be brought to the bishop , that he may lay his hands upon them , pray over them , bless and confirm them . for if the fervent prayer of every righteous man avail much , as st. james tells us , undoubtedly the solemn prayer and benediction of christs immediate substitute , and the prime officer of his church is not inconsiderable . besides , when men have understandingly and solemnly addicted themselves to the christian religion , and made it their own act by a voluntary and publick choice , it will ordinarily have a great influence upon them in modesty , honour and reputation as well as conscience , that they shall not easily go back from it , and renounce it : and though it is too true , that many have miscarried afterwards in point of practice , yet it is very observable in experience , that few or none who have been confirmed as aforesaid , have apostatized from the profession of christianity . fifthly and lastly , after such foundations are laid , it is no time yet to be secure , but these beginnings must be followed with further instructions , that such persons may be brought to a savoury sense of piety , and to understand the reasons of the religion which they have imbraced , and so neither be debauched with examples , nor tossed to and fro by every wind of new doctrine ; nay further , these young persons ought to be put upon all the ingenuous learning they are capable of receiving , and we are able to afford them , for the improvement of their minds , that they be the more serviceable to god both in church and state , by the intent prosecution of which , they will not only be kept out of the dangers which rash and unimployed youth is ready to run upon , but become an ornament to themselves and to their relations ; and which is more , be able to imploy and enjoy themselves in elder years , without the usual diversions of drinking and gaming , which commonly are the silly resorts and refuges of those who wanted education in their youth . 5. there is a principal branch of family discipline yet remains to be taken notice of , and that is the curbing and restraining first of all profaneness and contempt of things sacred , whether it be by cursing , swearing , blaspheming , or any other impudent scurrility ; and then in the next place , of all intemperance , drunkenness and debauchery ; for such things as these do not only bring a stain and blemish , but a curse upon the family , and to be sure the allowance of them is utterly inconsistent with any pretence to piety . and the care and concern for the suppressing these vices , extends not only so far as to the restraining of it in all the constant and setled members of the family , but also to the discountenancing of it in those that are only occasionally as guests in it . for how can any man that loves god , indure to see him abused before his face , and not interpose for him , especially where he hath authority , namely , within his own gates ? shall a man pretend piety , and make his table become a snare to his own soul , and his house a sanctuary and priviledged place for prophaneness ? nor let any man think it becomes him in gentility and complaisance to take no notice of the one , or out of hospitality to indulge the other ; for he that loves god as he ought to do , and hath any measure of manly courage , will not be so sheepish , but that he will at least discountenance such indecencies within his jurisdiction . but as for those that are setled members of the family , as servants and relations ; if any of them be guilty of such lewdness , i do not say , that they must presently be banished the society : for it may be divine providence sent them thither on purpose for their cure , and that we might have the glory of performing so worthy a work , and those sinners the happiness of meeting with the means of reformation ; and therefore we must when it happens so , look upon it as our duty to apply our selves in good earnest to recover them : but if after all good means used , there appear no hopes of reformation , it is certainly a good mans duty to dismiss such persons , both to avoid the scandal and the infection of them . and he that is truly conscientious of gods honour and the spiritual interest of his family , will not stick to sacrifice the petty interests of an useful servant , or a beneficial relation , thereupon . chap. v. family discipline , or by what means the several members of a family may be brought to conform to the aforesaid duties . he that resolves to maintain piety in his family , must do it by such a method as this . first , let him be sure to keep up the authority which god hath given him , and not through carelessness , facility or sheepishness , level himself with those he is to govern , and suffer every body to do what is right in their own eyes ; for then no wonder if piety and all things else be out of order . he that abjects himself shall be a meer cypher , and signify nothing in his own house ; but it is very much in a mans own power whether he will be despised or no : for he that values himself upon the dignity of his place , and asserts his own just authority , shall find divine providence standing by him therein , and striking an awe upon the spirits of those that ought to be governed , and so he will be able to do good service , not only in his closet , but within the whole sphere of his family . to this end let him observe , that as in the fourth command god requires and expects , that every master of a family be responsible for all those that are within his gates ; so accordingly in the fifth commandment he hath invested him with honour under the title of father and mother , and both commanded and promised to reward obedience to him : and let not any one think that god will desert his own institution , so as to permit the authority he hath here invested parents with , to be either trampled upon by others , or prostituted by themselves , without severe animadversion . let him consider also the great interest that lies in the conserving of paternal authority , in which the foundation is laid , both of civil and ecclesiastical government ; forasmuch as accordingly as people are inured to order , and to be in subjection in private families , such will be their behaviour afterwards in church or state : for he that suffers his children and servants to be contumacious towards himself , trains them up for instruments of schism and rebellion ; and he that on the other side countenances faction and disobedience to publick authority , makes a leading case for rebellion and confusion in his own family ; but he that accustoms those which belong to him , to obedience at home , makes his house a seminary of good subjects , and of good christians , and will feel the comfort , and reap the blessing of both . above all let him consider the nearness and naturalness of the principles of religion to the minds of men ; insomuch that there are hardly any but are convinced of the necessity and obligation of it in their own consciences ; in other things inferiours may perhaps dispute the wisdom of their governours , and so be tempted to disobey their commands ; but plain matters of devotion admit of no dispute , they are imposed by divine authority , written upon the hearts of men , and inacted and proclaimed within their consciences , and therefore people may with the greater readiness be brought to the observance of them , if we do but stir up and awaken , or at most second conscience by our authority . but then secondly , this authority ought to be tempered with sweetness and benignity in the exercise of it ; for a man is not to be a tyrant but a father in his family , he must not superciliously command , and imperiously will and require , but incline and perswade by the use of all motives and incouragements , and by all the arts of indearment oblige men to their duty . a mans family is his own body , and may be called himself , considered at large and in all his capacities , therefore unnecessary harshness and severity is as indecent in this society , as cruelty to his own flesh is unnatural . and it is commonly as insuccessful as it is indecent ; for power without goodness is a weapon without edge , which will go no further than mere force carries it . when men only fear , they will hate too , and be sure to obey no more than needs must . therefore the apostle eph. 6. 4. advises , fathers provoke not your children to wrath , and v. 9. forbids masters to use threatnings towards servants , but especially col. 3. 19. all bitterness towards wives is prohibited ; for these courses ( in such near relations ) ordinarily make them worse instead of mending them , and stir up all the mud and dirt of their temper . besides , it is to be considered , that the interest of making men good is very great and valuable , and he doth a very acceptable service to god who obliges his family to serve and honour him ; for by so doing a man promotes the salvation of his own soul , and he will have great allowances made for his personal infirmities at the day of judgment , who in his more publick capacity hath advanced gods glory in the salvation of others . therefore it is exceedingly worth the while , that we should deny our selves , and condescend to any honest art and method of ingaging men in religion . especially this is to be considered , that the instances of piety and devotion are above all things to be voluntary , free and chearful , or they are nothing worth ; and therefore harshness and severity are the most improper instruments for such an effect ; consequently it must be wise discourses , obliging carriage , sweetness of temper , kindness and benignity , that are the most likely methods of prevailing in such a case ; and ordinarily to gain this point , no more is requisite , than that a man discriminate between the good and the bad , that he favour the one and discountenance the other ; and this alone will in time make a strange change in a family . especially thirdly , if in the third place the governour of a family be a great example of piety himself : rules without examples are neither understood nor considered by those to whom they are propounded ; and he that goes about to over-rule his family to piety without making conscience of it in his own practice , nay , who doth not make his own life a great pattern of what he perswades to , undermines his own indeavours , and shall not only fail of success , but be ridiculous for his pains ; for every body is aware of this , that if devotion be necessary to one , it is so to another ; if the servant ought to pray to god , so ought the master ; if one ought to be zealous , certainly the other ought not to be careless or profane ; or if one may be excused the trouble of religion , so may the other also . and indeed it is hardly possible for a man in these matters to have the confidence earnestly to press the observation of that upon those under him , which is not conspicuous in his own practice ; or at least , if he have the forehead to do it , and can so well act the part of the hypocritical pharisee , as to lay heavy burdens upon others , which he himself will not touch with one of his fingers ; yet as he cannot do it heartily , so he must be very vain if he thinks men will not be able to see through the disguise , and very sottish if he can expect that such commands of his should carry any authority with them . but there is a majesty in holy example , it not only commands but charms men into compliance ; there is life and spirit in it , insomuch , that it animates and inflames all about a man ; it makes piety to become visible , and not only shews it to be necessary , but represents it with all its advantages of goodness , beauty and ornament ; it confutes mens mistakes of it , answers their objections against it , removes their suspicions , shames their cowardice and lukewarmness : in a word , it doth ( after the manner of all great engines ) work powerfully , though almost insensibly . we find by common experience , that men are sooner made wise and fit for great actions by the reading of history than by studying of politicks ; because matter of fact strikes us more powerfully , and the circumstances of things as they are done , instruct us more effectually than all dry rules and speculations can do : to which purpose it is to be remarked , that the way of the holy scripture is rather to teach men by examples than by rules ; and accordingly the whole sacred writ consists principally of the history of the lives of holy men , almighty wisdom thinking that way the fittest , not only to express the laws of virtue , but to make impression of them upon the spirits of men ; and indeed ( which is further remarkable ) there are some of the more curious and excellent lines of piety , which can hardly be exprest by words , but are easily legible in the lives of holy men . therefore let him who would ingage his family to devotion , give them a fair copy of it in his own example , and then he shall not fail of the honour and comfort to see it transcribed and imitated by those about him . 4. but that he may with the more certainty and expedition attain this desireable effect , it is very necessary , that he neither make the lives of those he would gain upon , burdensome to them , and exhaust their spirits by too great and constant drudgery about the affairs of the world , nor that he make the business of religion irksome and unpleasant to them by unnecessary length and tediousness of family-devotion ▪ for the former of these will take off their edge , and leave them with no heart to religion ; and the latter will beget an utter aversation to it . as for the former , our saviour hath told us , we cannot serve god and mammon , and that no man can serve two masters ; i. e. either one of them must be neglected , or both served very remisly : for it 's certain , when men are harassed with secular business , they cannot have spirits enough to attend religion with any vigour . and for the other , if the duties of religion be drawn out phantastically to a tedious length , it will be impossible ( whilest men are men ) that they should either be inclined to go to them with such chearfulness , or persevere in them with such delight and fervour as is requisite . therefore let the world be so moderately pursued , as that time , and strength and room , may be left for devotion ; and let the duties of religion be so contrived , that they may be pleasant and easy , and then ( besides that devotions so performed are most acceptable to god ) it will be no hard matter to bring our families to comply with them . especially 5. if in the fifth place the governours of families take care to order and methodize affairs so , that these different things intrench not upon each other , neither the world incroach upon religion , nor religion shut out and exclude the common affairs of life ; but both may take their places in a just subordination . we commonly observe , that things in an heap , and which are not digested into any order , look vast and numerous , so as to amuse our minds in the contemplation of them , insomuch that we neither apprehend any of them distinctly , nor comprehend them all together ; and in a crowd of business , we are either so confounded with the multiplicity , or distracted with the variety of things before us , that we apply our selves to nothing at all effectually ; for one hinders and supplants the other . so it is here in the case between the affairs of the two worlds , if both lie in gross before men , and no distinct place be assigned to each of them ; the effect is , that both together being an intolerable burden , one of the two must necessarily be neglected , and that commonly falls to be the lot of religion : or if it happen that these offices are not totally omitted , they will be sure to be superficially performed ; the minds of men neither being sufficiently prepared for them , nor united enough to attend them without distraction and wanderings . therefore as the wise man tells us , there is a time for every thing ; so let every man , who would promote religion in his family , appoint set hours for prayer , and all the offices of devotion , and then it will neither be difficult to obtain the constant observance of them , nor so ordinary to perform them carelesly and formally . 6. sixthly and lastly , it will be the wisdom of every master of a family who would bring those which are under his care and tuition to an uniformity in religion and the worship of god , and to seriousness and heartiness therein , that he express all tender affection to them and regard of them , when any of them happen to be sick , or under any adversity , and by that means make to himself an opportunity of obliging them to take his counsel , and follow his direction in all other cases . we use to say , he that will gain an interest in any man , so that he may be useful to him , or compliant with him in his prosperity , must lay the foundation of his friendship in that mans adversity . for no man knows who are his friends till he hath occasion to make experiment of them , which cannot be done but in adversity ; for every man is a friend to him that hath no need to him , but he that like the good samaritan , deserts us not in our greatest difficulties , him we have just grounds to value and confide in . now above all kindnesses men are most sensible of those which are done to their bodies , and they commonly take the measures of all friendship and sincerity from thence , and therefore he that will win upon the minds of men , must first oblige them in their bodily interests . besides , as we observe , that all inferiour creatures are most tractable and docible at such times as wherein they are lowest and can least help themselves ; so mankind is most disposed to take advice , and most obedient to counsel when he is at a non-plus in his affairs , and especially when the vanities of this world , which dazled his eyes before , begin to vanish , and there seems to be but one way left with him ( that is , to prepare for another life ) he will then freely admit of discourse of the other world , and be glad to comply with all serious advice in order thereunto . these seasons of adversity therefore are by no means to be let slip by him who is tender of the souls of those who are under his charge . to which add , that forasmuch as it is the constant method of all the zealots and emissaries of false religions to insinuate themselves into sick and calamitous persons , to the end that by such an opportunity they may gain disciples to their party , and they too frequently find this subtilty successful : the consideration hereof ought to awaken the diligence , and incourage the hopes and indeavours of all those that sincerely desire to save their own souls , and those that are imbarqued with them , to apprehend and improve such opportunities to better purposes ; especially seeing that in such seasons men are as capable of good principles as of bad , if there be not as much shameful and supine carelessness on the one side , as there is commonly vigilance and application on the other . and so much for family-piety . chap. vi. of publick piety , and particularly of governing a mans self in relation to the church and publick assembly of christians . as it is certain we were not born for our selves , so neither is it a sufficient discharge of our duty , that we be useful in our private family , or amongst our kindred and relations only , but that we express a zeal of gods glory and the good of mankind , answerable to the full extent of our capacity , and let our light so shine out before men , that we may provoke , as many as are within our reach , to glorify our father which is in heaven . now every private man is in some measure concerned in the neighbourhood and parish wherein he dwells , and whereto he belongs ; and therefore should so far at least dispense the influence of his zeal for god and religion : for almighty god , who hath appointed the bounds of mens habitation , having thus setled every man in his station , expects that he should look upon this as his proper sphere , and adorn it as his peculiar province . no private man hath any just reason ordinarily to prompt him to go beyond this , forasmuch as if every good man would do his part within these bounds , the whole world would be amended , and he that is remiss and negligent in this , cannot easily satisfy himself that he hath demonstrated such love to god as becomes him , nor can he expect to reap all those comforts and benefits which otherwise by a conscientious discharge of himself in this particular might redound to him . now that which we mean by the relation to a neighbourhood or a parish hath a double consideration . first , as every parish is or ought to be a branch or member of the church . secondly , as it is a branch or member of the commonwealth . accordingly there is a double obligation lies upon every man that is within the bounds of it , and from thence arise duties of a different nature : for brevity and perspicuity , i will distinguish them by the names of ecclesiastical and civil piety , and then shew what each of them comprehends , beginning with that which i call ecclesiastical piety , or the discharge of such publick duties as especially concern the society of a church . and this consists in these few following particulars . 1. that a man join himself to , and carry himself as a member of the church , and not out of pride , phantastry or contempt separate himself from it , or schismatically set up factions and conventicles against it . it is evident , that our lord jesus christ established the society of a church ; that is , appointed that all those who would be his disciples , should not content themselves singly and particularly to believe on him , but should all be obliged to associate themselves , and make up a body or spiritual corporation wherein they were to hold communion with each other , as members , as well as with him their head . the ends and uses of this institution were very many and great ; for besides that by this means order and unity is promoted , which is very beautiful in the eyes of god himself , our lord hereby provided that the truth of christianity might be jointly held up in the world , and the several members of this society become mutually more helpful and comfortable to each other , and also that by a constant method of christian intercourse here , they may be fitted for eternal friendship and society in heaven . in subserviency to all these ends , publick officers were appointed in the church to govern and to instruct the several members of it , which it were plainly impossible for them to do ( unless their numbers were almost infinite and equal to that of the people ) if it had not been that the people were to join together , and become a common flock for those officers to govern and instruct . moreover it was also the intention of our saviour , that this church of his should be but one , and catholick , imbracing all the true believers all the world over , and therefore it is called his body and his spouse : from whence it follows that every man who will partake of the benefits which flow from him , must be a part of this body , and thereby hold communion with him by conjunction with that , which is otherwise impossible to be done , than by joining with that part of the catholick church where it hath pleased the divine providence to settle our abode and habitation , that is , in the parish and neighbourhood where we dwell ; for without this , though it 's possible we may retain the fame faith in our hearts with the catholick church , yet we cannot perform the offices of members , nor serve the ends of such a society . the result is therefore , that it is ordinarily every christians duty to communicate in all the offices of christianity , to submit to the officers , to be subject to the censures , ahd to comply with the orders of that part of the church amongst which the divine providence hath placed him . i say ordinarily , because it may happen that the society of christians amongst whom a man lives may be heretical in their doctrine , or idolatrous in their worship , and then it will not be his sin but his duty to separate from them ; but bating that case , and where the doctrine is sound , and the worship free from idolatry , i see not what else can acquit him of schism that separates , or what can be sufficient to dissolve the obligation of joining with the catholick church by conjunction with that particular society , or member of it , where he is placed . therefore let not the good christian without flat necessity , suffer himself to be alienated from the particular church , lest by so doing he lose the comforts and benefits of the catholick church ; but let it be his care and indeavour ( so far as it is in his power ) that there may be but one church in the world , as was the intention of our saviour : to this purpose let him not hearken to the fond pretences of purer ordinances and double refined worship , or to the vain boasts of greater edification in other assemblies ; for besides that a man may justly expect most of gods blessing upon those means which are most his duty to apply himself unto ; it is also evident , that if such suggestions be attended to , it will be flatly impossible that there should ever be such a thing as unity or order in the christian church ; nay these conceits will not only distract and confound the order of the church , but they serve to fill mens heads with endless disputes , and their hearts with perpetual scruples about purity of administrations , so that they shall rest no where , but under pretence of soaring higher and higher , shall ramble from one church to another , till at last they cast off all ordinances as the highest attainment of spirituality . nor let him give ear to any peevish insinuations against the church and publick worship , upon account that there are some rites or ceremonies made use of which are only of humane institution ; for it is not only reasonable to hope that god will be well pleased with humility , peaceableness and obedience to humane laws , but certain , that there is no church in the world , that is or can be without some observances , that have no higher original than humane institution . but against these , and all other such like principles of separation , let him indeavour to secure himself ; first , by dismissing the prejudices of education , and the unnecessary scrupulosities of a melancholy temper , and above all , acquit himself of pride and pragmaticalness , and then he will easily and comfortably comply with any sound part of the christian church . in pursuance whereof 2. he must diligently frequent all the publick offices of religion in that society , whether it be prayers , preaching or reading the word of god , or administration of the sacraments , &c. for it is a mighty shame that a man should pretend to be of the church , who cares not how little or how seldom he comes at it , and who slights the advantages of its communion . for such a man , however he may hector and swagger for the notion of a church , manifestly betrays that all is but humour or interest , and no true principle of christianity at the bottom ; and really , he doth more dishonour to that society , than the professed schismatick doth or can do . for besides that he incourages them in their contempt of it , and discourages good men in their zeal for it ; he foments the suspicion of atheistical men , that religion is but a politick trick to catch silly persons with , whilest those that are privy to the plot , keep out of the bondage of it : i need not adde , that he defeats the institution of our saviour , that he baulks his own conscience ( if he have any ) and aggravates his own damnation , which are all very sad things . on the other side , the blessings and comforts of frequenting the offices of the church are so many and great , that it is not imaginable how any man who is convinced of the duty of communion in general , should be able to neglect the particular instances of it . for besides that the church is gods house , where he is especially present , and where we meet him , and place our selves under his eye and observation , and from whence he usually dispenses his favours ; it is a great furtherance of our zeal and piety , to be in the presence of one another , where the example of holy fervour and devotion in one , powerfully strikes and affects others . there is also an extraordinary majesty in the word of god , when it is not only fitted to our peculiar condition , but authoritatively pronounced , and applied to our conscience by gods messenger . above all , in prayers , when our petitions and requests are not only put up to almighty god , by his own minister appointed for this purpose ; but our weakness is relieved , our spirits incouraged , and we are inabled ( notwithstanding our private meanness or guilt ) to hope for acceptance and success in our desires , by the concurrent devotions of so many holy men as there join with us in the same suit , and in the same words , and whose united importunity besieges heaven , and prevails with almighty goodness for a blessing . wherefore let no man permit the private exercises of piety it self , such as prayer , reading , or meditation , to supersede or hinder his attendance upon the publick offices of the church , seeing that as these yield more publick honour to the divine majesty , so they are more effectual for our own benefit ; much less let sloth or too great eagerness upon the affairs of the world , make us forget or neglect them ; but least of all let any lukewarm indifferency or atheistical carelessness seise upon any man in this particular ; but let the man who glories to be of the christian church , be sure to be found there in the assemblies of gods servants . 3. and more particularly , let him not neglect the opportunities of receiving the sacrament of the lords supper , as often as they are presented to him , unless some weighty occasion hinder or disable him . it is well known to have been the use of the primitive church to administer this holy sacrament as often as it held any solemn assembly for divine worship , and the christians then as duly received it as they came to church ; nor did the frequency of it abate their reverence to it , but highly increased it rather . and this office they therefore called the communion , because it was the symbol of a compleat member of the church , and the fullest instance of that society . to have been kept from it by any accident , was then looked upon as a great calamity ; but to be debarred from it by the censure of the church , was as dreadful to them as the sentence of death . they sought to be restored to it with tears , with prostrations in sackcloth and ashes , with all the intercession of their friends , and all the interests they could make . there was no need in those times to use arguments to convince men of the duty , or repeated exhortations to press them to the performance of it ; the ministers of the church had no trouble in answering objections against it , or removing impertinent scruples about it , much less was there any occasion to urge the observance of it by humane laws ; for they remembred it was instituted by their saviour on the same night in which he was betrayed , for the commemoration of his passion , and recommended to their observance by the most obliging circumstances ; they found the constant solemnity of it setled in all churches by the apostles , and they were well aware of the unspeakable comforts of it . now the reason of all these things holds as much in these times as then ( saving that men are not so conscientious and devout as they were ) : for in the first place , it hath been the custom of the church in all times since , to make this sacrament the badge and cognizance of her members , until of late those have pretended to be churches where there was neither order nor unity , neither sacraments administred nor indeed persons qualified to administer them ; and it 's great pity and shame that such an unhappy novelty should prescribe against all antiquity . and then secondly , as for the institution of this sacrament by our saviour , it is manifest , that he did not deliver himself by way of counsel and advice , so as to leave it to our discretion or courtesy to observe this sacrament or omit it , but by express and positive command , do this in remembrance of me ; and therefore there is no room for the cavil against mixt communion , as if we were excused from celebrating the lord's supper , because others do it unworthily ; which is as much as to say , because some do it as they should not , i may chuse whether i will do it at all . but ( as i said ) here is an express command that we do it , and therefore we have no liberty to omit it upon any such pretence . and upon the same account it will be in vain to pretend i am not prepared for it , and therefore must be excused ; for when our lord hath made it our duty to do it , it is our duty also to do it as we should do , and the neglect of one duty will not excuse another , i. e. our sin of unpreparedness will be no apology for our sin in total omission of the sacrament . the whole truth is , here are two things required of us , one expressed and the other implied ; the express duty is ; that we celebrate the memorial of our saviours passion ; the implied duty is , that this be done with such preparation as agrees with so sacred a mystery ; both these therefore are to be performed : for as my coming to the sacrament will not excuse my coming unpreparedly , so much less will my unpreparedness excuse my not coming at all . but of the two , it seems far the more pardonable to come , though somewhat unpreparedly , than not to come because of unpreparedness ; for that is neither to come nor prepare neither . i say , though neither ought to be done , yet it is plainly better to offend in the point of an implied duty , than of an express one ; but especially , it is more tolerable to commit one sin than both , as he that comes not to the lords supper at all , notoriously doth . but then thirdly , for the comforts of this holy sacrament , those are so vastly great , that the man is as well insensible of his own good as of the honour of christ jesus , who willfully neglects the lords supper . for in the first place , by commemorating the passion of our lord in that holy feast , we not only perform an office of obedience and gratitude to our saviour , but we strengthen our faith in the efficacy of his death and sacrifice for the expiation of sin , which affords the greatest relief to our guilty consciences that can be . and together herewith we melt our own hearts into contrition , fears and sorrow for those sins of ours which required such an atonement . for who can consider what his saviour suffered , and look upon him whom we have pierced , and not mourn heartily for his sin and his danger ? again , by eating and drinking at the lords table we are made sensible of the happy estate of friendship with god , which we are now restored to by the intercession of our lord jesus . moreover by commemorating his death , and the ends and effects of it , we fortify our own minds against the fear of death , and by feeding upon his body and blood we have the pledges of our own resurrection and immortality , and to say no more ( though in so copious and comfortable a subject ) by partaking of his body and blood we become united to him , and partake of the same spirit that was in him . and now after all this , who will make that an excuse for omitting the sacrament , that they do not find or observe , that either themselves or others profit by it ? what , is it no profit that we have done our duty and exprest our gratitude to so great a benefactor ? is it no profit to see christ crucified before our eyes , and to see him pour out his heart blood for sinners ? is it no profit to be made ingenuously to weep over our own sins ? is it no priviledge , no comfort to be admitted to the lords table , in token of friendship and reconciliation with him ? certainly there is no body but profits something more or less by these things ; and if there be any man who doth not profit greatly by them , he must needs have a very naughty heart indeed , and had need to prepare himself , and go often to the sacrament that it may be mended . but however let the good christian gladly imbrace all opportunities of this holy solemnity , and not doubt to find comfort by it . 4. as for the other offices of the church , such as prayers especially , let him remember to frequent them constantly and intirely . by constancy of attendance upon publick worship , i mean , that he should not only apply himself to it on the sundays or lords days , but every day of the week if there be opportunity : and by intireness of gods service , i understand it to be his duty both to go at the beginning , and to join in it both morning and evening , that by all together he may not only sure himself and his own conscience of his heartiness and sincerity , but demonstrate to all about him the great sense he hath of the moment of religion , and that he looks upon the serving of god as of greater consequence than all other interests whatsoever . as for the first of these , viz. the frequenting the publick prayers every day ( where they are to be had ) it is observable in the character of cornelius , acts 10. 2. that amongst other instances of devotion it is said of him that he prayed to god always , which cannot well be understood of any thing else but his daily frequenting the publick prayers , because his private prayers could not be so well known as to make his character . but most expresly it is said of all that believed , acts 2. 46. that they continued daily with one accord in the temple , which must needs principally have reference to this duty of publick prayer ; and it is very hard if any man be so put to it , that he cannot spare one hour in a day to do publick honour to the divine majesty , or rather it is a great sign of unbelief in his providence as well as want of love to him , if a man cannot trust god so far as to hope that such a time spent in his service shall be recompensed by his blessing upon the residue of the day ; or however , a good christian will be well contented , and gladly sacrifice so much of his secular interests ( as this comes to ) to the divine majesty . as for the second point , viz. going at the beginning of prayers , it is a shameful neglect which several persons are guilty of , who will not altogether be absent from the church , but yet will come commonly so late , that they not only lose part of the prayers , but enter very abruptly and irreverently upon that which they partake of . it is possible a man may sometimes be surprized by the time , or diverted from his intention by some emergency ; but to be frequently tardy is an argument that he loves something better than god and his worship . for doubtless a good christian would ordinarily choose rather to stay for the minister , than that the publick office should stay for him , and thinks it fitter to spend a little time in preparing and disposing his heart for the duties of religion , than either to enter into the divine presence rudely , or to serve him only by halves . and as for the third branch of this instance of devotion , viz. the resorting both to morning and evening service , it is observable acts 3. 1. that the apostles were at the temple at the hour of prayer , being the ninth hour , which is both a proof of their frequenting the evening service as well as that of the morning , and also an example of observing the just and stated times of publick worship ; and surely it will become every good christian to be lead by such a precedent , especially seeing the gospel worship which we resort to is so much more excellent and comfortable than the jewish was ( which those holy men thus carefully frequented ) as we shall see by and by . 5. in the next place it is to be minded , that in all these publick approaches to gods house , we are to express a great reverence towards the divine majesty : by which i do not only mean that we ought in our hearts to think worthily of him , and prostrate all the inward powers of our souls to him , but that in our outward man , in our carriage and bodily deportment we express an awful regard to him , by all such gestures and signs , as according to the common opinion of men , are taken to betoken the highest reverence and observance , such as standing , kneeling , bowing , and prostrations of our selves before him . for though the heart be that which god principally looks at , yet forasmuch as he made our bodies as well as our souls , and we hope he will save both , he therefore expects we should glorify him , both with our souls and with our bodies which are his , and which he hath bought with a price , 1 cor. 6. 20. and indeed there is such a nearness and sympathy between our bodies and spirits , that they ordinarily move by consent , and draw one another into compliance . insomuch , that he who truly bows his soul to god , can scarcely forbear at the same time to bow his knees to him also ; and he on the other side that bows his knee to him , is by that very motion of his body in some measure put in mind to entertain reverential thoughts and affections towards him . and this care of bodily worship is the more important in publick service , and especially in gods house , because ( as i noted before ) then and there his honour and grandeur is concerned , and any indecent carriage in such a case , is an affront to him , and exposes him to contempt in the eyes of men , and therefore that carriage which in secret worship might admit of excuse , will in publick be intolerable profaneness . wherefore let not the pious man be affrighted by any one out of the expressions of bodily reverence , under the notion of superstition , which is become a bugbear , by which weak men are made afraid of every instance of a decorous or generous devotion . there can be no culpable superstition in our worship , so long as we have the true object for it , and whilest we use not such expressions of our devotion as he hath forbidden ; but this of bodily reverence is so far from being forbidden , that it is expresly required in the holy scripture , and hath been constantly practised by all holy men . nor let the phancy of a spiritual worship , required under the gospel , beguile any man into a contempt or neglect of bodily reverence ; for it is plain , that although the christian religion raises mens inward devotion higher , yet it abates nothing of outward adoration ; but rather when it requires the former should be more intense and affectionate , it supposes the other should be answerable , because it is natural so to be ; for this being the accessory cannot but follow the principal . it is true , there is a possibility that more stress may be laid upon the shadow than the substance , and some men may hope to complement god almighty out of his right to their hearts , by the addresses of their bodies : but the fault in this case is not , that there is too much of the latter , but too little of the former ; and the good christian therefore will be sure to join both together ; and as he will come to gods house with the most elevated affections , so he will express his apprehensions of the infinite distance between him and the divine majesty by the lowliest postures of his body . 6. next to this let the pious man think it his duty to pay some measure of reverence to gods minister as well as to the divine majesty , and for his sake . in the old testament , god took special care of the respect and dignity of his ministers as well as of their maintenance ; for indeed all contumely towards them redounds upon himself : and the new testament is very full and express in this particular , they are those that watch for our souls , and must give account for them , they are gods embassadors , and workers together with him , those by whose hands he pardons and blesses his people , and therefore he holds them as the stars in his right hand , and those who slight them that speak in his name on earth affront him that speaketh from heaven , but amongst the many passages in the new testament to this purpose , that of the apostle to the thessal . 1. ep. 5. 13. is very considerable , the words are these , we beseech you brethren to know those who labour amongst you , and are over you in the lord , and to esteem them very highly in love for their works sake . the last words are so emphatical they cannot be expressed in english , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to give them greater esteem than otherwise is due to them for their work and office sake , i. e. to value them above their parts and merits and quality in other respects , for the sake of that relation they stand in to god , and for their office and usefulness towards our souls . and indeed touching that last particular , it is evident in experience , that all those who have any regard to their own souls , are such as indeavour to raise in their hearts an esteem for their minister ; not only that they may incourage his studies and sweeten his labours to him , but that they may render themselves the more capable of following his counsels and receiving benefit by his instructions : and on the other side , those that slight and vilify the persons of such , neither do nor possibly can ( ordinarily ) receive any benefit by their ministry , and therefore the prophet hosea 4. 4. speaking of a profligate and hopeless sort of people , useth this expression , this people are as those that strive with the priest , q. d. they are not only horribly vicious and profane , but they are incorrigible too . therefore the piously disposed man will be sure to reverence gods ministers , both for gods sake and his own too , and this leads me to another duty of kind to the former , viz. 7. that the good christian account it an office of publick piety as well as of common justice , to pay truly and faithfully his tithes and church dues to the minister : this the apostle intimates by the expression of double honour , 1 tim. 5. 17. natural reason and the common sense of mankind requires that they which serve at the altar should live upon the altar . and in the old testament when god himself setled the provision for his ministers , he did it most amply and honourably ; and under the gospel pious antiquity took care that the christian church and ministry thereof should be liberally indowed , till the envy and rapacity of after-times deprived it of a great part of its rights ; but now after those depredations it would be an horrible sin and shame to rob the church of any part of that remainder , or fraudulently to diminish or impair it . for it is evident , that no man can pretend any right to it , as having neither purchased it nor hired it , nor had it descend upon him by inheritance ; the churches due being a reserved estate , or a rent-charge upon every private estate . and it is notorious that it is what pious ancestry consecrated to this use , and therefore no part of it can be invaded , intercepted or incroached upon without sacriledge and the curse of god. and for proof of this , we need no more than to observe the common success of such men as purloin from the church , and ( as their own phrase is ) are always pinching on the parsons side . they are generally a querulous , uneasy , lean , hungry and unthrifty sort of people , god almighty blowing upon and blasting their other labours for the sake of this accursed thing in their tents ; or if any of them thrive for the present , yet , one time or other , a coal from the altar will take hold of , and fire their nests . whereas on the other side , those that are just to god in this particular , ordinarily find the benefit of it in the success of their affairs , and they are commonly chearful in their spirits and prosperous in the world. but the good christian will not need these arguments , for he loves god and his service , and his ministers , and thinks it fit that he that reaps spiritual things ought liberally to sow temporal things , at least he will rather abridge himself than wrong the church , although it may be never so cleverly done , under the countenance of a corrupt custom or prescription . so far from it , that 8. in the eighth place he will be an example of pious munificence , and put himself to some voluntary cost for the ornaments of religion and the house of god , and that his publick service may be performed with gravity , decency and solemnity . for he thinks it very fit that the great majesty of heaven and earth should not only be worshipped with sincerity and devotion , but with grandeur and magnificence . he will not therefore humour the profaneness of degenerate times so much as to forswear building of churches , if it be in his power , nor much less will be backward or stingy in repairing of them when there is occasion ; for he cannot find in his heart to let gods house lie waste when he builds his own , nor frame his mind to think that is good enough for the uses of religion which he could not be contented with for his private accommodation , if better were in his power , and therefore will in all parish-meetings about these matters vote for god against his own purse , for he is of davids mind , who had no fancy for a cheap religion , nor would serve god with that which cost him nothing , 1 chron. 21. 24. and as he psal . 84. verses 5 , 6 , 7. blesses those that took pains to repair the ways , and to make the passage easy towards god house at jerusalem ; so the pious christian will indeavour by his counsel and example , that the whole external face of religion may be lightsome , beautiful and decorous in the place where he dwells , to the end that not only his animal spirits may the more chearfully comply with the devotion of his mind , but that those also may be invited to frequent gods house and worship , who have not yet experimented the spiritual ravishments of it . in further pursuance whereof 9. the pious man ( we speak of ) will together with all the aforesaid allurements , use also his utmost indeavours by perswasions , incouragements , and all other fit means to prevail with the whole neighbourhood or parish to frequent the church . for as he would not go to heaven alone , nay knows assuredly he shall not come there , if he do not indeavour to carry others along with him ; so neither is he contented to feed upon the fatness of gods house alone , but would have others partake with him . he hath a holy indignation to observe theaters to be filled , exchanges and markets thronged , and gods house unfurnished with guests . he wonders at the inconsiderateness of men who incur such a guilt by the contempt of religion , and pitties their folly that deny themselves so many comforts and advantages as gods house affords above any other place of resort whatsoever . besides , he considers , that not only god is more honour'd by a general confluence to his service , but that his own heart is more inlarged and chearful , and his affections more raised ( as it were moving in consort ) when there is a brave concourse in divine offices . psal . 122. 1 , 2. i rejoiced ( saith the holy man ) when they said , come , let us go up to the house of the lord , our feet shall stand within thy gates o jerusalem . well-disposed persons ( it seems ) then were wont to call upon and provoke one another , and to flock together in companies towards the temple , and it was a pleasant spectacle to the psalmist to behold it . and let good christians be ashamed to be outdone in any thing of this kind , since our church and worship is so incomparably more excellent than theirs . what was it that a zealous jew could provoke his neighbours to go up to the temple for ? to see a beast slain and a smoke made with the fat and entrails , or to muse upon the obscure hieroglyphicks in the fabrick , the utensils , the ornaments and service of that house ? but a christian goes to the church to hear the lively oracles of god , to see heaven opened in all its glories , and to be shewed the way thither . therefore he that is sensible of the great odds on the side of the christian worship , and who hath so much prudence and charity as to render him serviceable amongst his neighbours to such a purpose , will jog and awaken them out of their sloth and negligence of going to the church , by wise and manly discourses , and friendly and familiar exhortations , from the considerations of the scandal to religion , and discouragement to the minister by the peoples remissness , and of the duty and benefit of diligent attendance , and he will with the same zeal and care indeavour to answer their objections , and remove their scruples about it ; and especially considering , that this is commonly better taken , and sinks deeper into such men as need it , when it is done ( not only by the minister , who is presumed by these incogitant persons to do it for his interest or the reputation of his person or profession , but ) by those who are upon the same terms with themselves . to all this , the pious man aforesaid will wisely improve the interest of his charity to oblige the poorer sort to their duty , dispensing most liberally to them who are most inclinable to follow his counsel in this particular ; and for the middle sort of men , he will trade and buy and sell upon choice with those that are best affected to the church and religion . but if all this should not do , and that he cannot prevail upon all , yet 10. in the last place , he will not fail at least to over-rule his own family , that they shall universally and constantly frequent the church , and so be an example to the neighbourhood . this i have shewed before , every governour of a family hath authority from god to do , and the holy scripture affords us several instances of the efficacy and success of making use of it to this purpose ; amongst the rest , by virtue hereof , joshua undertook for his house , that they should serve the lord ; and cornelius prevailed upon those under him so , that he is said to fear the lord with all his house . and indeed a master of a family will be able to give a very sorry account of his family , if he cannot oblige them to go to church with him ; for we find by woful experience , that where under pretence of scruples about the publick worship , inferiours have claimed the priviledge of exemption , and been permitted to resort to conventicles , the effect hath been , that such persons have not only grown captious and insolent , and by degrees to despise their superiours , but having by this means gotten from under the eye of their governours have made no scruple to run into debauchery . therefore let the pious man strictly charge himself thus far , and look upon himself as very insignificant in his place , if he do not so much publick honour to god and religion , as to bring his family to the house of god. chap. vii . of civil piety , or , how a good man may carry himself so , as to promote gods honour , and the publick good , together with his own peace and comfort , in the parish , considered only as a civil society or neighbourhood . when our blessed saviour , mat. 5. 13. saith to his disciples , ye are the salt of the earth , he did not direct himself only to his apostles , or to them and their successors , the pastors of his church ( as some have imagined ) but to all his disciples in general . for besides that the beatitudes which he pronounces in the former part of the chapter , and his other discourse ( pursuant of them ) which immediately precedes these words , apparently concern all christians , so far as they are qualified for them ; it is evident also by s. luke , chap. 14. comparing the 25 verse with the 32. that it was his intention to apply this title of being the salt of the earth , to the whole body of true christians . and then the importance of that expression will be this , that the true spirit of christianity is and ought to be a principle of activity ; and the professors of this religion are not to content themselves with passive innocency , and that they escape the contagion of evil example , nor be corrupted and debauched by the temptations or customs of the world : but that they must look upon it as their duty to better and improve the state of mankind , to influence upon it , to season and preserve others from corruption as well as themselves . nor is this activity of true christianity to be strictly confined within the limits of the church , or to display it self merely in the great duties of religion properly considered . for as our saviour designed not only to shew men a way to another world above , but also to amend the condition of this present world below , and to make it a more quiet and comfortable habitation : so doubtless when he calls his disciples the salt of the whole earth , he intended to require , that every good man should ( within his whole sphere ) indeavour to promote humanity , morality , and the civil and political happiness of mankind . the discharge of which is that which i call civil piety , and the measures whereof ( at least so far as concerns the purpose in hand ) are briefly described in the following particulars . 1. the first office of civil piety is to maintain government and order , to keep up the honour and dignity of the prince , to preserve the reverence of magistracy and the laws of a mans country . for the doing of this , we have as express and urgent commands of god as any are to be found in the whole scripture ; and therefore the conscientious discharge hereof is as acceptable to him as any act of immediate worship . for god almighty needs nothing at our hands for himself , or for his own use and advantage , but makes the publick good of his creatures the matter and reason of his laws : now publick peace and tranquillity ( which are only to be preserved by laws and magistracy ) are of mighty concernment to mankind , as well as beautiful in the eyes of him that calleth himself a god of order . for without government we could have no quiet in our habitations , no security of our persons , no propriety in our estates , no defence against foreign invasion , nor any refuge from the inraged multitude or combined force of evil men ; but the weak would be a prey to the strong , the slothful would eat the labours of the industrious , the world would be filled with murders , rapine and violence , and become an hell upon earth ; and therefore it is not only worthy of a wise mans care to uphold government , but must be his important duty to indeavour it . and the being instrumental herein , is not only very honourable to religion , and consequently procures the benign aspect of princes towards it , and provokes them to become nursing fathers of it , but is peculiarly commodious to all the offices and exercises thereof . therefore it is observable , that the apostles generally in all their writings , immediately after they have discoursed of the peculiar duties of christianity , subjoin earnest exhortations to obedience to humane laws and civil powers ; and the primitive christians were so infinitely tender herein , as if they thought that god could not have his honour , and glory , and service rightly performed to him , unless peace and order were preserved in the world. now forasmuch as the greatest kingdoms consist of so many several lesser bodies , as the integral parts thereof ; and those again of so many parishes : and forasmuch as it is impossible there should be peace and good order in the whole , if the particular parts or members be out of order : therefore it must not only be the duty , but be within the power of every private person to contribute something towards the great ends aforesaid ; first by disposing himself , secondly by principling his family , and thirdly , by perswading and inclining his neighbours to favour and assist the government towards the attainment of the design of humane society . and this the good christian ought at this time especially to set himself about with the greater zeal , because the looseness herein seems to be one of the peculiar evils of the present age we live in , and that which not only makes an ill reflection upon religion , but indangers the state of it . in order therefore to the upholding of government , let the good man indeavour in converse with his neighbours to possess them with an apprehension of the necessity of submitting private interests to common utility , and particular opinion to publick discretion , and so bring them into a good opinion of the reasonableness of the laws , and of the wisdom of their governours . let him labour to remove peoples discontents , to confute their jealousies , and to make them chearful and well-pleased with the state of the world , which god hath ordered . let him discountenance all seditious libels and news , not permit in his company any pragmatical censuring of the laws or publick counsels ; no traducing the persons or exposing the infirmities of governours ; nor no repining at , and envying the glory and splendour of those that are preferred above themselves . that he may be successful in all this , let him be careful to preserve and keep up the distinct ranks , orders and degrees of men , and that those differences which it hath pleased the divine providence to make in the fortunes and conditions of men be observed , i mean in respect of age and youth , riches and poverty , honour and obscruity ; the neglect of which is not only a malapert quakerly humour , but a principle of sedition and confusion in the world. for as it is evident , that there can be no peace and quiet in the world , if there be no government ; so it is as certain , there can be no government where there is no order , nor the different degrees amongst men observed : and therefore he that would either level the condition of all men , or ( which is the same things in effect ) would destroy that reverence which keeps up that distinction and diversity of condition , dissolves the very sinews of humane society . god almighty indeed could easily have levelled the condition of all men , and taken away or prevented the differences of rich and poor , honourable and ignoble ; and of old and young too , if he had so pleased . but then , it is not imaginable how there could have been any society amongst men , at least , unless he had also by his omnipotency made them all to be wise and good too : but forasmuch as he resolved to have order and government amongst men , and yet would not effect it by violence ; he therefore resolved by means of those different conditions aforesaid , to subordinate them one to another , and to unite them together in the bonds of mutual usefulness and dependance . so he ordered that some should be poor to ease the rich of labour and drudgery , and others rich to imploy and incourage their industry ; that the one might have superfluity to relieve the others want , and the other be obliged by their bounty : the same providence ordered that there should be some men in power and dignity , and others in privacy and obscurity ; that the man of honour standing by and countenancing the ignoble as his client , he on the other side should observe and acknowledge him as his patron , and so harmony arises out of this discord . again , he ordered the world so , that all should not be of a stature and capacity of body or mind , but that there should be old men able to counsel and advise others , but not of strength to execute ; and young men of spirit and vigour for execution , but destitute of counsel and wisdom : that the former by their experience and observation instructing the latter , and the latter by their strength and courage assisting the former ; they might be mutually indeared to each other as members of the same body . he therefore who incourages or suffers ( if he can help it ) the poor to be surly and insolent towards the rich , or the private person to be contumacious towards those in dignity , or the young to be rude and malapert towards the aged , opposes himself to divine providence , and is the author of dissolution of government and confusion in the world. but he that perswades the poor to be modest , as well as the rich to be charitable ; that puts private persons in mind of subjection , as well as great men of generosity and mildness ; that disposes young men to reverence the gray hairs of the aged , as well as them to do worthily of their respect and gravity , subserves the divine providence in his wise method of preserving peace and order , and lays the first foundation of good government . for the foundation of all laws and magistracy is to be laid in the hearts and principles of men ; and unless a modest reverence of superiority be first setled there , the exercise of mere power and authority will be very difficult and insuccessful . so that it is in the power of private persons to promote publick government , and the office of virtuous men to do so . 2. the second office of a christian in his parish is to promote justice and honesty amongst the neighbourhood in all their dealings and transactions one with another . it is commonly and truly said , that justice is the pillar of the world , and therefore it is observable , that the great creator and governour of the world usually interposes by a visible providence , more in behalf of this virtue than of any other ; insomuch , that oppression , and those secret instances of injustice , which cannot ordinarily be discerned and punished by the hand of the magistrate , seldom escape a curse and divine vengeance in this life . for besides the mischief that such sins do to humane society , they are arguments of great infidelity and atheism ; forasmuch as it plainly betrays that man to have no perswasion of a world to come , who can be tempted for the sake of the present world to do such base and ununworthy actions ; and therefore it is as well an act of piety towards god , and of charity to men , as of advantage to the state of civil society , to use all indeavours to prevent such kind of transgressions . but it is not only strict justice which i here intend , but my meaning is to take it in the full latitude , so as to comprise truth , and faithfulness , and equity also ; that men be true in their assertions , faithful and steady in their promises , and equitable and candid in all their dealings , and so far from doing violence to each other , that they do not enterprize to out-wit , surprize , or over reach one another , but that they use a humane temper , and express a publick spirit ; and in a word , that they govern themselves by that golden rule of doing to others as they would be content to be done unto , every man making the case of his neighbour to be his own . and this i the rather represent to the good christians care , because this kind of injustice is become another very common and epidemical sin of the age , and men seem to applaud themselves in being able to cheat beyond the cognizance of humane laws , and to play upon and abuse the simplicity , credulity , or inadvertency one of another . for prevention and remedy of which , the person we speak of , must in the first place render himself a great example of integrity and equity , especially because the measures of these virtues cannot be so well delivered by the prescription of any laws whatsoever , as they may be exprest in the life , and observed in the conversation of good men . and in the next place he ought to endeavour by discourse to make those he converses with , sensible of the baseness and villany of injustice , by representing the sordid love of the world from which it proceeds , the distrust in gods providence with which it is accompanied , or rather the utter unbelief of a god by which it is incouraged . how treacherous and cowardly a thing it is to work upon other mens necessity or facility : how selfish and un-neighbourly a thing to have no respect to any thing but our own private interest : how little is commonly gotten at last by such kind of courses : and to how little purpose , since a man cannot but expect the curse of god upon his honest endeavours ( otherwise ) for the sake of his unjust acquisitions . 3. the third office of good neighbourhood is to indeavour to bring into fashion again that almost antiquated virtue of simplicity and plain-heartedness in our discourses and communications ; that men , especially neighbours , should ordinarily be free and open and plain to one another without cunning and scrupulous reservation , than which nothing is more suitable to the relation of neighbours , nothing more friendly and obliging ; for it makes conversation safe and easy when men express a moderate confidence one in another : and although this like some of the lesser stars , make no great shew in the world ; yet is it of very great influence to sweeten the tempers of men , and improve the comforts of society . besides , it is an argument of sincerity of heart , of competent assurance of a mans own judgment , and a real instance of true greatness of mind ; whereas little artifices of concealment are justly looked upon as the disguises of weakness , or the prefaces to fraud , and consequently render a man either dangerous or contemptible to those he converses with . some men indeed please themselves much in closeness and caution , and count it not only a point of prudence , but a piece of state and greatness to live in the dark to all about them ; but it is easy to observe , that if any men admire such persons for their depth , they withal suspect them for their designs , and to be sure do not love them . i acknowledge there is such a thing as a prudent and virtuous secrecy and taciturnity , which is very commendable and necessary in some cases ; for no man values him that labours under a looseness of tongue , and an incontinency of mind , so that he cannot keep his own counsel : and who shall trust him with their secrets who is a blab of his own ? and it is well enough said , that nakedness of mind is as undecent as that of the body . but then on the other side , must a man be accounted naked unless he cloath himself in armour ? to be always upon the ward , and to stand continually upon our guard , as if we were in an enemies country , is at least un-neighbourly and disobliging . for besides that such an artificial conversation is very troublesome to both parties , in regard on the one hand it is very difficult to the reserved man always to stand bent , so as never to betray himself , and then he spoils all his design : and on the other hand , it puts other men upon their guard too ; for men are naturally shy of those whom they observe to be constantly and rigidly close , and so conversation is interrupted ; whereas nothing unlocks other mens hearts , like the opening of our own to them . again too great reservedness as it is always entertained with jealousy and suspicion for the present , so it commonly breeds disputes and contests in the conclusion ; whereas plain-heartedness hath no rubs nor difficulties in its way , nor no after-game to play : for every man believes and trusts such a man as plays upon the square , and such a conversation is pleasant and acceptable . moreover cunning is always lookt upon as an argument of a little mind and of a cowardly temper ; for what should tempt a man to dissemble and work under-ground , but mistrust of his own abilities or consciousness of evil designs ; and this is so far from affording a man any security , that it provokes other men , first to pry the more curiously into him , and then to countermine him , and at last to expose him . to all which add , that if this reservedness we speak of proceeds from insincerity and design , it betrays great unbelief of god and of providence ; for the clear apprehensions of those great points will incourage a man to be open , and plain and confident : but if it proceed from temper and constitution only , yet even then it doth far more harm than good , and particularly ( as i said before ) it makes life and conversation very uncomfortable , and good neighbourhood plainly impossible ; and therefore it is well worthy of the care and indeavours of a good man to reduce and recover the antient sincerity and simplicity , instead of that hollow complemental hypocrisy which hath of late supplanted and excluded it . 4. but yet care is to be taken withal , that this plainness and simplicity degenerate not into rudeness , or frothy and foolish conversation , and therefore it is the fourth office of a virtuous man amongst his neighbours , to indeavour to render conversation favoury , and manly and profitable as well as sincere ; that is , that it be neither trifled away with flat , inspid and gossiping impertinence , nor misimployed in light and idle drollery , nor turned into an occasion of tipling and sensuality , much less debauched by profaneness and malapert reflections on things sacred , but that it be applied to the furtherance of real business , to the bettering of mens understandings , to virtuous purposes , and especially to the advantage of religion . these last things are useful to the world , and worthy of men ; but the other are a mis-expence of time , a degrading of our selves , a reproach to our reason , and the bane of conversation . with a peculiar respect to such things as these it is that christians are called the salt of the earth ( as i observed before ) because they are not only to prevent the rottenness and putrefaction , but also the flatness and insipidity of conversation . and as for that which i intimated in the last place , namely , the consulting the advantage of religion , i must now say further , that although it be true that that is not the only subject of good discourse , forasmuch as god allows us both the refreshment of our spirits , and a moderate concern about the affairs of this life ; and therefore consequently the affair of another world ought not to be importunely thrust in upon all occasions to the exclusion of other entertainments : yet most certainly it ought to have its place and share in our friendly communications , as being the most weighty and important subject , and if it be dexterously managed , the most gentile and obliging . neither will it be so very difficult as is commonly imagined , to turn the stream of neighbourly discourse this way , if men would be perswaded to try , and apply themselves seriously to it : and surely he that hopes to attain the joys of heaven himself , cannot but wish his neighbours in the way thither also ; nor can he whose heart is throughly affected with the apprehensions of it , omit now and then to let fall something or other that way tending ; at least every good man owes so much to god and religion , as to interpose a good word sometimes in their behalf , which besides that it gives some countenance to piety for the present , may by the blessing of god make a greater impression than we are aware of , and redound to his own comfortable account another day . but 5. it is unquestionably the duty of every christian to labour to the utmost of his power to make and preserve peace amongst his neighbours . to this purpose it is very observable , that our saviour , mark 9. 50. joins these two things together , have salt in your selves , and have peace one with another ; as if he had said , though you are the salt of the earth , yet you must take care you be not too sharp and acrimonious . you must indeed preserve the world from corruption , but yet you must not exasperate it into passion and disorder ; for you must compose men to peace and quietness , and quench their combustions as well as inflame their zeal and devotion . and indeed the latter of these can never successfully be undertaken , unless at the same time , the former be provided for ; for religion never takes place in mens hearts , nor brings forth fruits in their lives , when the spirits of men are imbroiled with heats and animosities . men are not fit to consider of the counsels of the gospel , nor to estimate the reason and importance of them , when their minds are in a flame , and their thoughts in an hurry . nor if they were already perswaded of them , could they be in a temper to comply with them , or to make any fit expression of love and service towards god , whilst they are at variance with their brethren , and therefore the apostle tells us , the fruits of righteousness are sowen in peace , james 3. 18. and as peace is very advantagious to gods service , so the making and procuring it is very honourable and comfortable to them that are imployed about it . they are under one of our saviours beatitudes , and he intitles them the children of god in a peculiar manner , mat. 5. 9. viz. as being those who especially imitate and resemble him . and one instance of the blessedness of such men is this , that they which make peace , commonly reap the fruits of it , both in the benign and kindly chearfulness of their own spirits , and in the fair and courteous usage they generally meet with from other men , as well as in the repose and quiet they enjoy when all the world is peaceable and still round about them ; whereas makebates and incendiaries torment themselves first before they torture other men , and besides , bring the fire home to their own houses when they have inflamed other mens . the good christian therefore is not only peaceable himself , but a peacemaker in his parish , to which end he will in the first place discountenance all whisperers , eves-droppers and tale-bearers as the pest of society ; for these are the bellows that blow up a spark into a flame . he will indeavour to prevent and take up law-suits , which commonly begin in passion and end in malice : for the decision of them rather immortalizes the quarrel than finishes the dispute ; and he that overcomes , very often like the bee , destroys himself whilst he fastens his sting upon another . he sets a mark upon them that single themselves from the rest of their neighbours , and divide into parties as men of a great deal of pride , but of little wit ; for a great and generous mind would be easily able to animate such a society as a parish , and render himself considerable in the whole without tearing it in pieces that he may lead a faction . he detests and abhors all affected singularity , though the instance of it be in it self unblameable ( so long as it is not absolutely necessary ) because he considers such things first raise jealousy , then provoke emulation ; and at last end in alienation of affections . he indeavours that no new opinions in religion may be broached amongst the neighbourhood , as knowing well there can be no new gospel , or new way to heaven , and he hath learnt by experience , that whilst men stand gazing after new lights they make halt in the race of virtue , and lose the way of peace , without which they shall never come at heaven . he indeavours therefore to keep up the antient landmarks , both in spiritual and temporal affairs ; but if any disputes be raised , he will presently bring water to quench the fire in the beginning , and by discreet and temperate discourses incline both parties to coolness and moderation , by representing the littleness of the matter in controversy between them , the great benefit of unity and concord amongst neighbours , and especially by putting them in mind of the approaches of death , which will very shortly take away the subject of the question , and the disputants too . 6. sixthly , next to this and to the intent that his indeavours of making peace may be the more successful , he will contrive to render his person acceptable and fit to be interposed in quarrels , by making himself remarkable for all other offices of charity and beneficence , such as relieving of the poor to the very utmost of his ability , and by sympathizing with those he cannot help , by visiting the sick , counselling the weak and injudicious , comforting the disconsolate , vindicating the injured , rescuing the oppressed , and taking the part of the widow and fatherless ; by all which and several other good offices he will become a common father and friend to the whole neighbourhood . most of these things may be performed without much cost or trouble , or if they be chargeable either way , the expence will be abundantly recompensed by the delight that attends the discharge of them : for they are commonly as comfortable in the doing to those that undertake them , as they are beneficial to those for whose sake they are undertaken . thus at a cheap rate a man becomes a benefactor and a blessing to the times and places where he lives , and besides , doth a singular service to god , vindicating his providence in the inequal distribution of his temporal blessings , and he renders religion lovely in the eyes of all the world , and he very effectually consults the comfort of his own soul , giving proof to himself , that he loves god whom he hath not seen , because he loves his brother whom he hath seen . 7. seventhly and lastly , ( and to speak summarily ) it is the duty and the practice of a good christian by all the means he can devise , to promote the welfare and prosperity of his parish and neighbourhood , not only because it is far more comfortable living amongst those who are in a prosperous condition ( as to their outward affairs ) in regard that moderate prosperity sweetens mens spirits and betters their temper , as much as pinching want and necessity , soures and disorders them : but also because generally god is better loved and served by men whose hearts are chearful and easy , than by the querulous and unhappy . in order therefore to the wealth and prosperity of the place where he dwells , the good christian will in the first place take care to prevent the idleness of the inhabitants by bringing in some manufacture or other ( if it be possible ) that so all hands may be set on work in some honest way of living ; for idleness , besides that it makes a very ugly figure , clothing the slothful persons with rags , it commonly inclines people to be great eaters , having nothing else to do but to mind their bellies , and so they become a sort of caterpillars which devour other mens labours ; it also tempts them by their necessity to pilfer , cheat , lie and steal , and do any base action imaginable ; and moreover such people are generally envious , malicious , busy bodies , medlers in other mens matters , and in a word , being desperate in their fortunes , they are past fear and shame . whereas on the other side , honest industry , besides that it is attended with the blessing of god , renders people modest , quiet , governable , chearful , good natured , and publick spirited . in the next place , and in pursuance of the same ends , the pious parishioner will , as far as he is able , prevent tipling and drunkenness amongst his neighbours , which is well known to be the common cause of want amongst the inferiour sort of people ; for this beastly way they will swill down presently that which might go a great way in the maintenance of their families , besides , that the custom of it loses their time , softens and relaxes their nerves , and makes them impatient of labour ; it raises their passions , and abates their discretion , and so disposes them to be quarrelsome with their families when they come home ; and which is worst of all , renders them proud , insolent and ungovernable . furthermore , the good man will indeavour ( if it be wanting , and the place be capable of it ) to get a good school setled in the parish , which besides the great advantage of it , for the education of youth , doth generally inrich the place , and is more beneficial than a manufacture ; for this affords some imployment for those poor that are there already , and makes no more , nor draws other such to the place as manufacture usually doth . and lastly , to all this , a good neighbour will indeavour to bring all vicious and incorrigible people to shame and punishment , than which nothing conduces more to the honour of religion , to the peace of the inhabitants , or the felicity of the place . there are notwithstanding some fond and incogitant people who think this course quite contrary to good neighbourhood , and look upon those as the best townsmen that will connive at mens vices , and let every body do what they list : but with their leave , as it is the greatest kindness toward such vicious persons , to make use of the provision which the wisdom of laws hath made for their amendment , so he is the best christian that discriminates between good and bad men , as well as the best townsman who will not permit virtue and industry to be discouraged by the impudence and impunity of some lewd persons ; but so much for that . these things which i have now treated of in this chapter , are a certain kind of lesser morals , and the peculiar instances of that which i called civil piety ; but if the good christian will ( as he ought ) take care of them , he will do at least a collateral service to almighty god , by being a benefactor to the world ; he will render the attendance upon religion more easy , and make his own passage through the world towards heaven the more quiet and comfortable , which is the thing aimed at all along in these papers . the end . a defence of the articles of the protestants religion in aunsweare to a libell lately cast abroad, intituled certaine articles, or forcible reasons, discouering the palpable absurdities, and most intricate errours of the protestantes religion. barlow, william, d. 1613. 1601 approx. 315 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 121 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a04376 stc 1449 estc s100898 99836725 99836725 1011 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a04376) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 1011) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 695:05) a defence of the articles of the protestants religion in aunsweare to a libell lately cast abroad, intituled certaine articles, or forcible reasons, discouering the palpable absurdities, and most intricate errours of the protestantes religion. barlow, william, d. 1613. [12], 227, [1] p. imprinted by [john windet for] iohn wolfe, and are to bee sold in pauls church yard by mathew law, london : 1601. printer's name from stc. "certaine articles or forcible reasons" is by thomas wright. reproduction of the original in cambridge university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project 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will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng wright, thomas, d. 1624. -certaine articles or forcible reasons. protestantism -apologetic works. 2003-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-04 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-06 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2003-06 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a defence of the articles of the protestants religion , in aunsweare to a libell lately cast abroad , intituled certaine articles , or forcible reasons , discouering the palpable absurdities , and most intricate errours of the protestantes religion . vt loquerentur calumniam & transgressionem , conceperunt et locuti sunt de corde verba mendacii . esa. 59. 13 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . basilius . london imprinted by iohn wolfe , and are to bee sold in pauls church yard by mathew law , 1601. to the right reuerend father in christ , richard , by gods permission , bishop of london , my very good lo●d . tvvo venemous worms there are , which ( like snakes at the palme roote ) doe gaster and infect the floorishing state of a setled church , sacrilege and haeresie : which double mischiefe to the church , is principally imputed to men of the church ; ambition , basely yeelding to any compact for titular prefermentes , feeding the sacrilegious humour : factious traducing each of other for opinions different , or rather indifferent , opening a gap for the haereticall inchanter . this last , through the despite of rome , transmitting her traiterous shauelinges to seduce good subiectes ; disgorging loathsome slaunders , to defame our prince and state among forreners ; and principally , dispersing their infamous libels against our religion , to make it more odious to our domesticall professors , hath of late much pestered , and haunted this our church and realme : the inward cause is their inueterate malice , but this outrage in multiplying their blowes thus thicke and threefold ( pardon , my good lord , if i gesse amisse ) is incensed by an opinion they haue conceyued , that there is among vs , a generall declining to poperie , aud the ruine beginning at the very groundcelles of religion , our schooles of learning ; which , god bee thancked , stande both fast and sure , against the strongest battery of the romish factiō , & if euer heretofore , cleerly voyde of all her superstitious infections : yet this hot surmise , though very vaine and false , hath , notwithstanding , receiued the flame from a wilde-fire zeale of some vniuersitie men , who pronounce euery position to be popish , which is not within the verge of their paper booke common places ; and wanting the towne-clarke his discretion act. 19. 36 , to do nothing rashly , but to referre the determination to a lawfull assembly vers . 39. proclaimed that for heresy in a solemne meeting , which comming to a higher , and more mature examination , prooued to bee so farre from popery , that it was on the contrary conuinced by the writings & verdict of the greatest authors of accompt among vs , to bee most sound doctrine and orthodoxall . by which offensiue clamour , woorse then cham his irrision , so farre carried and sorting to so smale effect of trueth , howsoeuer without seuere and condigne punishmēt it escaped , yet surely , the whole state of this realme , the vniuersitie it selfe , and the particular persons thus slaunderously abused , haue receiued a wrōg scarcely expiable by the diuestiture of the accusers from their places . the realme , because report , which getteth feathers by flying , will sound it out in forreine partes , that our fountaines are infected ; the vniuersitie , in that no parent of wisedome and religion , will send his sonne to a place suspected ; the particuler men , beeing iniuried in their good name , impeached in their preferment , discouraged in their indeuours , being as readie to confront , as willing to encounter , as able to ouerthrow any papist , as the most forward and whotspurred challengers of the opposite enraged faction ; which by your lordship , and other of authoritie ecclesiasticall , being not allayed and scattered , it is no marueile if the papist take courage , & like another antaeus thus redouble his strength to the preiudice & disgrace of this our famous church . an instance hereof , among many other , is this smal pamphlet aunsweared by mee , so commaunded by his grace , wherin the author taketh euery occasion to triumph in our diuisions . vvhich aunsweare i haue presumed to present to your lordship , both as a testimony publike of that reuerent regard , which i euer acknowledged due from my selfe vnto you ; & principally , for that i am acquainted with that most earnest desire and care which your l. reuealed at your first inuestiture into that great dignitie , to haue the common aduersarie euery w●y answered : this if your good lordship accept and approue , it is the accōplishment of mine endeuour ; if not , the secōd part ( for this is but the first ) may bee imposed vpō some other , who with more opportunitie for leysure , & sufficiencie for learning , may discharge it better . in the meane time i commend this to your l. fauour , and your lordship to god his protection . from his graces house in lambeth ianuary . 11. 1601. william barlow . the fiue articles obiected concerning knowledge and faith . 1. the protestantes haue no faith , nor religion . 2. the learned protestantes are infidels . 3. all protestantes ignorant of the greeke and latine tongues are infidels . 4. the protestants know not what they beleeue . 5. the protestāts haue no meane to determine controuersies , & abolish heresies . in the aunsweare to them , these pointes are fully handled , occasioned by his obiections . in the first , the returne of the article in generall vpon the papistes . antiquitie of our particular church . inuisibilitie of the true catholike church . constancie , and diffusion in the second , the qualities and nature of infidelitie . best exposition of scripture , publike priuate authoritie of fathers . in the thirde , the credite of councels and the church . vse of tounges . bibles translation . in the fourth , the motiues to faith , not subiect vnto reason . true rule of faith . authoritie , of the apostles creede . dignitie vse and substance fiue articles of the creed examined . 1. catholike church therein the definition & description of the true church . 2. communion of saints , wherein of the nomber of sacramentes . presence in the eucharist inuocation of saintes . prayer for the dead , and purgatorie . 3. remission of sinnes , wherein of baptisme . pennance . iustification by not imputing . 4. the deitie of christ. 5. descent into hell. in the fifth , the fittest arbiter and iudge in decision of controuersies . the differences betweene protestantes and puritans . an aunsweare to an odde extrauagant syllogisme about the certaintie of saluation . et me prodes , nec tibi proder is , nisi perlegas . hieronym . to reade as the booke opens casually , not from the beginning orderly , is to betray my paines , and thy profite . the greater faults escaped thus to be corrected . blunderus . lege bunderus , pag. 20. marg . in quos read in quo . pa. 32. lin , 8. maiestl● , for maiestie , pa. 36. lin . 24. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 52. lin , 9. 11 , cor , for 1. cor. pa. 53. marg . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 63. lin , 2. abundance , lege abundare . pa. 64. lin . v●t . pag. 67. marg . durius for duraeus . mendatium for mendacium . pa. 70. lin . 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pag. 71. lin , 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , lege 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 72. li. 14. ephes. 42. lege epistol , 42. pa. 73 , marg . ius bt . foris bu● . pag. 75. li. 1. guilt . for gilt . pa. 76. li. 10. art. 4. for art. 5. ibid. marg . implicit , è either , for implicitè , either . pa. 100. li. 13. speciallyo , for specially , one . pa. 102. li. 24. mattere for matters . pa. 105 , li , 6 , any , good for any good , pa. 133. li. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 144. lin . 6. which concealed , reade which was concealed . pa. 144 , li , 6. we , with . reade we , who with , pa. 147 , li. 20. erufflations , exufssations , pa. 148 , lin , 2. implay , for imply . pag. 165. lin . 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 178. lin . vlt. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pa. 181. liu . 21. pelus . ep . 30. reade ep . 299. ibid. marg. ad patres , lege ad fratres . p. 182. marg . their for there . p. 184. lin . 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 183 li. 3. 1 ▪ tim. 3. for 2. tim. 3. ibid. marg . high iudge , for higher , pa. 190. li. 11. thwey are no , read they are now . pag. 195. l ▪ 4. diuision of . for decision of p. 214. li. 22. a preface to the reader , with an aunsweare of the letter written to his frend . it may passe for a diuine oracle , rather then an humane sentence , which publius hath , a veritatem nimiûm altercando amitti , that opposition by argument , hath not onely much weakened , but vtterly abandoned the trueth , both for substance of doctrine ( selfe b loue on both partes taking scorne to yeeld , and so causeth an opinión at first but probably controuertible , to bee in the end as an axiom mainely defensible ) and also in the manner of dispute , the opposite argumentes of our moderne aduersaries being not contradictions doctrinall , but personall maledictions : c as one of their owne well noteth , hauing no care to discharge a good conscience , without preiudice , to enquire the rectifying of their errours , wherewith they haue bene deluded , but to disgorge their virulent stomackes against the church and profession , wherewith they are discontented : for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith d thucydides , the present state , be it neuer so excellent , hath his malecontents . examples hereof none more pregnant then the romish clergy ; and in that rabble none more pestilent , then our home-borne fugitiues ; and of these the most aspish and poysonfull , those two runnagates with three names , rossaeus , rainoldes , and gifford : who ( as if with the e ophigenes and psylli , they had bene fed and fostered with no aliment but poyson , ) haue breathed foorth , their in-bred malice against the heauens , and infected the aire and earth , with their pestiferous libels , f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as epimenides once said , the very alters and scenes of reproachfull blasphemies , against the religion we professe , euen the sincere doctrine of our sauiour christ. as if the purport of their writinges were , as g ierome speaketh , non quomodo saluentur , sed quomodo superent , not the issue of saluation , but the pursuite of conquest , by what meanes soeuer ; h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whether the extreamest tyranny , or the most spitefull suggestions , fastening vppon vs , what malice could forge , or impudency out-face . yet th●se writ in latine , & so the learned alone , if wauering , might be peruerted ; if resolute , were assaulted : but of late , a vernaculer pen-man , an abyssian locust ; to verify the prouerbe in i epiphanius , aspis a vipera venenum mutuatur , hauing translated them into english , abbreuiated into a portible libell , dedicated vnto a namelesse gentleman , capitulated into articles , sorted into two heades , hath scattered them abroad in our vulgar tongue , that so the meanest idiote , carrying fire in his bosome , and poison in his hand , might hardly escape without daunger or infection . and requesteth his frend , that if an aunsweare be attempted , by any itching spirite , ( a fit correspondence , to such a scuruy libeller ) to intreate him to performe it briefly , orderly , and seriously . first , for the aunsweare , were it not enioyned me , by him , who by his authority in the church , and for some fauours extended , doth commaund me , it had bene none for me , because , if i were woorthy to be heard , the whole frame of the articles being , k to speake with theodoret 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the perturbation of an ignorant and a distempered apostata , neither the pamphlet shold haue bene so straightly suppressed , nam perfidiam exposuisse superasse fuis●et , as l ierome saith , the very front of the articles bringing with it the brand of manifest confutation : nor any apology should be shaped , holding that rule of m ioseph for proper and sound , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , silence is the fittest aunsweare for importunate and profuse lyars . their impudency gayning them this priuiledge , saith basil , and tullie , not at all to be aunsweared , because as a man cannot fasten n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . any maine stroke and visible vpon soft and yeelding bodies , in that they haue no repercuss on : so is it bootelesse , and well neere impossible , to confute the manifest madnesse of shamelesse heretikes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with any forcible reioy●der , because they want modesty : & therefore as the o philosopher would not haue them vouchsafed disputation , who deny principles ; no more were this masked iesuite to be deigned an aunsweare , his articles being nought els but abhominable , and lucianlike contumeltes . for the breuitie which he requesteth , it may soone be graunted , and no other aunsweare made , but either that which both a christ and the b archangell gaue vnto sathan , the lord rebuke thee : or that of c cato to lentulus , dicam falli●os quite negant os habere , i will say they are much deceiued , that deny thee to haue a mouth and a soule one too : or that of the d spartans , to the theban orator , his tedious and bold speech , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if , that is , if he thinke as he writes , his ignorance is desperate , if otherwise ▪ his conscience is feared . yet the iudic●o●s reader will consider , that as a e wound though geuen in a trice with a thrust , cannot so soone be cured : f so a slaunder by an ill tongue may be quickely fastened , not so briefly aunsweared , g tertullus had soone termed s. paul a sectary , a seditious , & a pestilent fellow , but the apostle his apology in clering him selfe , could not be so succinct : notwithstanding assure thy selfe good reader , that as much as i can , i will auoid al prolixitie & perplexitie , being naturally an enemy to tedious and ambagious superfluitie . as for the order it shall be that of the h poet i prae , sequar : the very method ( such as it is ) which himselfe hath vsed ; that as face in the water aunsweareth to face , according to i salomon ; so euery article shall receiue his seuerall aunsweare : which , being twelue in all , he referreth to * two heades , wit and will , faith and good life , vt vno rotatu gladii percutiat vtrumque , k saith ierom of such another : because , quoth this articler heresy , inueigleth the one with errour , and seduceth the other with inordinate affections . if we list to be curious with him , their owne diuines seeme to say otherwise , videlicet , l that a prinate conceite of the wit , differing from others , and pertinacy of the will , defending the difference ( both the sprouts of selfe loue ) hatcheth and causeth heresy : so that heresy is rather conceiued by the wit , then the wit deceiued by heresy . and for good life , how heresies can be referred to manners , except improperly , no diuine sheweth : for albeit the m apostle numbreth among the workes of the flesh , sectes and heresies ; yet neither the word flesh is in that place to be taken for the sensuall & brutish part of mā , but for the intellectuall corrupted : neither were it so , is it a worke of the flesh n in respect of the obiect , but of the cause , so farre forth as the will propoundes finem indebitum an vndue and vnlawfull ende , which rising from the depra●ation of the flesh , either pride to be singular ; or desire either to be magnified , or to be enriched , or to haue the lusts satisfied , o breedeth an heresy , rather then is seduced by it : for carnall men giuen ouer to their sensuality , betake themselues to some heresy in opinion , thereby to support , or to shelter their lustes : as the p fathers do shew in the cerinthians , adamites and aërians , and experience fresh and frequent , that the dissolutest liuers among vs , whome our church and state doth vomite out for their loosenesse , therefore fly to rome , beeing a place exempt , and priuiledged with immunities for filthy wickednesse : and that royall exchaunge of indulgences , by which euery sinne though neuer so horrible , for money may be pardoned , or tollerated , hath allured more customers to popery , then either the pageant of their masse , though daily acted , or the preaching of their friers , though perswading mightily , or their iesuites bookes , though scattered daungerously , yet vppon these premises he inferreth a bolde and peremptory conclusion . * i say then that no excellent good wit , linked with a religious conscience , can either accept , or affect the protestants new coyned gospell . of the new coyne , anone , when we come to the triall of the min●e . belike then as the poet said , q nobis non licet esse tam disertis , qui musas colimus s●u●riores , all our english professors are but blockes to papistes , and r bozius saith so plainely : but as zopyrus , who tooke vppon him s to be a very skilfull physiognomer , pronouncing of socrates , whome apolloes oracle had adiuged the wisest man , to be but a ●ullard and heauy witted , was laught at by the company present , but èspecially by alcybiades : so beside many others , t cardinall allen , one of as sharpe insight as this pamphleter , hath long since exibilated this rash illation ; whose opinion is , with griefe , that the finest wittes are ours , for which he yeeldes this reason , because the more pregnant and sharpe wittes , not enduring to dig and del●e in those quarries of the schoolemen , nor to plod at those intricate points , which are the rudiments of popery , adhere to vs , and imbrace our profession , the principles and institutes of religion with vs , being more obuious and easy . as for excellency of witte , it is true which s. austen saith , that u ingeniosum nasci foelicitatis est , it is a singular blessing to be so indowed by nature ; because in the opinion of the * orator , men of slow wittes haue seldome aspired to any great reach , or illustrious vertue . notwithstanding , a pregnant natures , are like lustie groundes , these manured by industry , prooue soundly fertile ; but neglected and vntilled , tarish and weedy : so those illumined by grace , prooue theologically iudicious , but left in their naturall faculties , the more sharpe the more daungerous ; as b basil elegantly speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the acutest calculators of atheisme and impiety , the most subiect and open to any heresy . and therfore our sauiour christ appropriateth diuine knowledge , and sound iudgement in matters of faith , not to naturall apprehension , but to c diuine inspiration . but were not the comparison of wittes odious in it selfe , and in the d heathens opinion ouer burdensome to the reader , and among diuines ridiculous and vnfit ( and yet , qui velit ingenio cedere ra●us erit ) if we should take sophocles his course , who being accused for a delir●ous and weake-braind e man , pronounced that excellent tragedy , intituled oedipus colonaeus of his owne making , and asked if that might be accompted the worke of a broken witte , or dotard ; and so make a suru●ew of our mens writings , i doubt not but in the most rigorous censure of any indifferent iudge , they would , both for sharpe inuention , sound iudgement , sincere interpretation and forcible argumentes , be much preferred before the rude gloses of bardocucullion monkish friers , and the trumping illusions and sophismes of the most nimbly witted iesuites . millions of instances might be shewed , but promising breuitie , i refer thee to f erasmus & g viues , onely one i bring because he hath made a challenge . the case is propounded , to a good wit linked with a religious conscience in a matter of high state , and a deepe point of diuinitie : whether it be lawfull for a subiect to murther his soueraigne an heretike . we dullard protestantes thinke no , because s. paul hath said h let euery soule be subiect , their fine wits hold yea , because s. paul saith haereticum deuita , i id est , de vita tolle . in a particular , whether iacob clemens the dominican might by authoritie of holy writ , kil henry the iii. of france ? we blockish witted professors are of the negatiue part , & suppose hee should haue said with k dauid , god forbid that i should lay mine hand vpon the lordes annointed . but he in the acute excellency of his witte , linked with a religious conscience , reasoneth thus with himselfe , l ehud killed eglon , and therefore i may kill henry ; his ground of resolution very witty , eglon was a king , and so is henry , eglon signifieth a m calue , and henry is a caluenist , and therefore assuredly i may murther him by scripture ; such excellent wittes and religious consciences let rome brag of and foster , god keepe them from vs ; and this for his methode of wit and will. the last request he makes is , that the answeare should be * serious . assuredly in conference about religion , it is no fit aunsweare for a diuine , which n archias made to a messenger that came to him , with letters importing earnest matters , & requiring serious consultation , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 serious matters to morrow , let vs now be merry , for a o curse lies vpon him that deales in the lordes worke negligently , much more in iest : notwithstanding hauing perused this paltry pamphlet , and finding it to bee as p iosephus said of apion his writinges 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a very heape and misken of shamelesse vntruethes , rather then scholler like arguments , or true cōtrouersies , & the obiections articulated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as q ●stine speaketh , not vpon mature iudgement , but a passionate discontentment , linked with a bad conscience , little caring , as r naz. saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not what hee speakes , but how much he can speake ; i demurred with my selfe , as s that learned iew did in his grapple with that granimarian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whether it were woorth the while , to deale seriously or no ? because t s. ierome his r●le is , that such open blasphemies procure & deserue magis indignationem scribentis , quam studium , rather an aunsweare with skorne , then in earnest ; or such an one as u lactantius gaue aristoxenus , nimirum manu pulsandus hic est , but i trust by that time hee hath read this aunsweare , hee will say there hath bene vsed neither dalliance nor iest ; vnlesse it be such sport as a abner speakes of , surgant pueri & ludant , the triall of our weapons at the least . and this for our prolusion , now we meete ; and behold an vncircumcised tongued goliah blaspheming the most high god. the first article . the protestants haue no faith nor religion . the protestants haue no faith , no hope , no charitie , no repentance , no iustification , no church , no altar , no sacrifice , no priest , no religion , no christ. answere . lingua quo vadis ? if pythagoras his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were to be credited , a man would thinke , that eyther a rabshekah his soule had beene transported into this mans bodie , their blasphemie is so semblable ; the one perswading the israelites , that they had neither right altars whereon to sacrifice , not true god whom they did worship : and this other impudently at the first dash auowing , that our profession is nothing els but athe●sme and irreligion : or els that hee were a lindian borne , who vsing to offer their sacrifices with curses and execrable maledictions , thought their holy rites were prophaned , if , al the time of their solemnitie , vel imprudenti alicui exciderit bonum verbum , saith lactantius , any of them , at vnawares , had cast out , or let fall a good worde . by which speech , if he touch our professours , as men liuing without faith , hope , charitie and repentance : or , as if there were neither church nor priest , nor christ , as it is a slander for the vntruth , so is it an elench of the accident , in disputation to reason from the doctrine to the persons : if he meane the forme and substance of the profession it selfe , then either is he ignorantly blind , & so verifieth that speech of esay in himselfe , which in the title of his booke he hath prefixed , impegimus meridie quasi in tenebris ; like seneca his blind woman , that said it was darke night , being a cleare sunshine day , for wee professe not within the walles , but vpon the house top : or els ( the opinion of the schoolemen being sound , that a contradiction of a manifest truth ex destinata malitia contra conscientiam , vpon prepensed malice against a mans owne knowledge and conscience is that great sinne and irremissible ) he is pharisaically blasphemous : for as they being in their minds assured that our sauiour cast out diuels by the finger of god , yet , vpon a fixed malice , auowed it to be coniuring , & therfore were condemned for blasphemers of the holy ghost : so this cursing shemei cannot but know that wee preach christ a emanuel , b god equall with his father , c incarnate of a virgine , crucified for man , d the perfection of the law , e the summe of the gospell . faith , both assenting , with a setled beliefe of his doctrine , and iustifying by application of his merites . hope , the anchor of our confidence , in the most daungerous surges sure and stedfast . charitie the life of both , the bond of perfection , binding vs to god , making vs one spirite with him ; and to our neighbour , both in affection and action , by giuing and forgiuing . repentance , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as chrisostome speaketh , as well in the cōtrition of heart , as the reformatiō of the mind : and so of the rest , proportionable to scriptures . he , i say , which knowing this shall notwithstanding thus shamelessely pronounce the contrary , condemnes himself , giuen ouer to a reprobate sence , by turning the truth of god into a lie , and therefore not farre from that vnpardonable sinne . yet this must not much moue vs thus to be censured , because euen in the primitiue state the christians were so intituled by tyrantes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , away with these atheistes . yea some of the popish canonists haue not doubted to conclude of the whole colledge and companie of the apostles to bee heritikes and infidels : and also that it is an vsuall custome for the most guiltie to be the vehemētst accusers , & none so ready to cry treson , as athaliah the onely vsurper . for this giddie articler which cannot see woode for trees , nor in the most glorious church true religion , if he would but looke backe into his owne synagogue , might he not say as hee in plut. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is not our church guiltie of that wee accuse them ? not to examine all these particulars , how they rather haue no faith , annihilating it by merite of worke . no hope weakening it by doubtfullnesse of saluation . no repentance , auoyding that by indulgence of toleration . no charitie , especially towardes god , extinguishing that by their heape of superstitions ( for perfect loue casteth out feare , but where superstition is , there is feare more then seruile . this being the difference , euen in the opinion of a pagan , betweene an atheist and a superstitious man , that the one , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thinkes there is no god to rewarde vertue : the other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wisheth there were no god to punish sinne . ) no religion , neither as it is the true knowledge of the true god , concealing that from the meany , by casing the scriptures in a straunge translation , as the philistines stopped ●saac his wells through enuie : nor as it is the syncere worship of one god and alone , defiling the puritie , and diuiding the integritie thereof , by that latrioduliacall distinction of idols adoration , and saintes inuocation : onely let vs trie the last , whether it may not iustly be returned vpon them , that they have no christ , and that in his owne methode , which in his epistle , he calleth syllogisticall : the doubting whether christ be the onely emanuel god and man is the negatiue of christ , but their diuines dispute , whether the pope also be * simplex homo a * pure man , or quasi deus participet vtramque naturam cum christo , or as god , participate both natures with christ. againe , the preferring of any man before christ in any vertue , is to deny christ , but they conclude the pope to be clementior christo , more kind & mercifull then christ , because he neuer released soule out of purgatory , as the pope hath done many . if it be said , that these are but scholasticall combates for triall of wittes , no positiue conclusions : ( and yet saint basil ▪ saith , that such questions propounded euen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for disputation sake , are blasphemies against the spirite , and the poyson of religion ) you shall haue a thesis , in a comparison betweene iohn baptist and s. frauncis . the impairing of christes dignitie , in preferring any aboue him , is to make no christ ; now heare and tremble : iohn baptist receiued the word of repentance from the lord christ , but s. frauncis receiued it from the lord also , & , quod plus est , a papa , and , which is more , from the pope . adde another betweene christ & dominike . the diuiding christs soueraigntie with another , is to make no christ , for hee will all or none , because both his father hath giuen him the whole world for his possession , and himselfe challengeth it , omnis potestas mihi data . and therefore is he called , the lord of lords : but say they ; christ indede is lord absolutè & authoritatiu● , by absolute commission , but dominike is lord possessiuè by actuall possession : yea , by the ingenuous cōfession of one of their owne schollers , till the time of pius quintus , which is not aboue 50. yeares since , iesus christ had bene banished out of rome , but that pope thē brought him backe againe . so then , to giue this fellow his shortest and best aunsweare , this position argues him to bee maliciously mad ; for a man beeing a member of that synagogue , thus execrably opinionated , and knowing in his conscience the contrary to this his accusation in our church , both by our positions doctrinall , our profession practicall , and the worldes testimoniall ; thus paradoxically in the entrance of his booke to articulate , non sani esse hominis , nō sanus iuret orestes , as the poet saith , and ierome applies it : yet least hee should seeme mad without a reason , thus he frames one . for if they haue , thē the world was with out them for 1000. yeares ( as they them selues must needes confesse , videlicet , al that time their church was eclipsed ) & for 1500. as * we will proue by the testimony of all records of antiquity , as histories , councels , monuments of auncient fathers . aunsweare . dum breuis esse labor at absurdus fit . he promised vs syllogismes , wee will shape one for him . if the protestantes haue faith , hope , religion , christ &c. then the worlde for 1000. yeares wanted them : but the worlde wanted them not , ergò they haue them not . a fish of three dayes keeping , and the consequent of this maior may goe together for stinking new : it hauing bene a stale obiectiō made by a haman against the iewes : by b the pagans against s. paul : by c celsus against christ : d by the world against the gospell : by e the tyrants against christians : and by the whole cluster of pseudocatholicall scriblers against vs , that our church and profession , is but of yesterdayes breed . but i aunsweare briefly , euen as aemilius scaurus answeared varius his accuser , varius dicit , scaurus negat , vtri creditis ? they obiect it , we deny it , and not deny it onely , but demōstrate the contrary , that we worship the same god , acknowledge the same christ , professe the same faith , haue the same hope , which the patriarkes before the law , the prophetes vnder moses , the apostles vnder our sauiour , and the primitiue christians vnder the gospell , syncerely kept and professed for 110. yeres after the ascention of christ as hegesippus obserued , & for 600. yeares after him in the soundest churches were continued , & by the learned fathers were defended . this challenge hath bene sounded , the gauntlet cast out ; some one hath taken it vp , and like virgill his wolfe caudamque remulcens turnd his backe with disgrace : and yet this namelesse and shamelesse catholike thinkes to carry it away with an hypotheticall proposition , in a three halfepenny pamphlet : and so hee might , if he could make that good which he saith , and confirme it , first , by our owne confession , and secondly , by the testimony of all ages . for the first , let it bee supposed that wee must needes confesse our church to bee eclipsed : yet this confession is their confutation . for , if our church for 1000. yeares was eclipsed , then it followeth , it was extant , and that we had one , though a little one , a small flocke , a few names , and this is all we desire , & that which they so mainly deny ( especially stapletō , cāpian , & duraeus , frō whom this libeller hath gleaned those handfuls of his ) for as the sunne though it be placed in a tabernacle in the heauēs , that both the light and heate thereof , might be seene & felt ouer the whole earth , yet somtimes by clouds it is enueloped , & by mists fogged ▪ oft times by eclipses obscured , and once euery 24. houres by the earthes shadow , which is the night , àbandoned ; yet still as dauid speaketh , both like a giant he continues his course and force naturall ; & like a gallant bridegrome , kepes his brightnesse and glory , though not alwayes visibly , yet substantially . so christes church , though euen from the apostles time , thorough the mystery of iniquitie , and the mistes of impietie , and the eclipses of apostacie , and the darkenesse of ignorance , it was obscured , and as it were , vnder the earth , in caues and holes , and rockes , and desertes , saith the apostle : yet still she kept her course inuisibly , but effectually ; which makes it saith austen , non vt nulla sit , sed vt parum gloriosa . not that it wanted her glory at any time , for glorious things are spoken of thee , thou cittie of god. but the kings daughter being all glorious within , it was not alwaies aspectable to fleshly eyes . but might it please this challenger to set downe some inforcement of our confession . we say for our church , that is , for our profession , with egesippus , that it remayned a pure and immaculate virgine till the apostles were taken from the earth , and so had still continued , if the suruiuers and successours , so tearmed , had remembred our sauiours caueat of the pharisees leauen , humane inuentions , or saint paules premonition of aliud euangelium , vncertaine traditions : or that councell which vegetius giues to common souldiers ne palustribus aquis vtantur , to kepe themselues to the pure fountaine of the scriptures without blending or corruption : and by that first church we desire to haue ours examined , thinking the neerer the purer ; whereas some of them , shunning this touchstone , stick not to say that the church , euen in the apostles time , was but rude , and vnsound in many preceptes of doctrine , & , for exāple , one sets downe an instance of priestes marriage . and for our particular english church , as auncient euery day , and as christian euery way as the romane , a primor dio euangelii saith polidore , and therefore by faber , called semen apostolicum : being planted and watered either by paul the apostle of the gentiles , or by ioseph of arimathea , as theodoret witnesseth . and for the integritie thereof , one of their owne auerres , that from the time of eleutherius bishop of rome anno 177. of christ , christianitas inter eos nunquam defecit . and least you should thinke this christianitie to be the romish religion : first , remember the difference of our obseruation of easter from them , kept according to the custome of the eastern church , which for long after would not stoope any way to the romane bishop : secondly , the opposition , which was made against the monke austen , forced vpon our land as a legate : and lastly , that which platina writeth , that gregory his course , which he tooke by the ministery of this his apostle , was not fidei dogma integrè tractare , sed eius integritatem adulterare . his second presumption is , the testimony of histories , fathers councels , for 1500. yeares . this is but the cracke of an elder pipe : and as the poore man said of his sow when he sheard , here is great crie & little wooll : he might ( affecting such breuitie ) haue more shortly said , we will proue it by the pope . for they equalling the fathers with scriptures , and preferring councels before the fathers , & amounting the pope aboue councels ( in saying that the sentence of the pope in rebus fidei , is , penitus definitiua , but of the councels definitionis ambulatoriae ) all the proofes he can bring , must be from the oracle of the popes brest : and yet there he will faile , for euen their owne popes will crosse thē , iulius the pope , for the immersion of the bread at the cōmunion . clement the pope in the challenge of both swordes leo the pope for their reiteration of masses : and gelasius the pope , for their halfe communion . as for antiquitie , we request it our iudg , so it be that which ignatius appealeth vnto , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the antique doctrine of christ. for histories , none rather then those written by his finger , which is the ancient of dayes . for fathers , none sooner then him whome iustine calleth , patrem patrum , that is , s. paul. for councels , none more earnestly thē the consent & sentence of the synode of the apostles . and let him promise vs not to deale as apelliconis tineae with aristotles books , to bring vs moath-eaten fathers ▪ and counterfaite councels , mutilated , depraued , corrupted , falsified , as clement serued theodoret , and pighius s. austen , and the louanistes origen , & their index expurgatorius all the monumentes of antiquitie , and his challenge shall be aunsweared : but he did well to take a day , & say , we will prooue it , for hetherto as great men as he haue fayled in it , and till he performe it , we will expect him . meanewhile let him take the aduice with him , which archidamus gaue to his foole-hardie sonne , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , either to bring more strength , or lesse rage ; for challenging without valour , argues more rage , then courage . but vpon these ●premisses imagined , not proued ; presumed not grāted ; he inferreth two corollaries proportionable , first , that we countenance iudaisme , secondly , that we induce and support atheisme . as followeth . * whereby it plainly appeareth , that the synagogue of the iewes , was more constant in continuance , and more ample for place , then the church of christ ( for they haue had their synagogue visible in diuers countries euer since christes death and passion , euen vntill this day . answere iron sharpneth iron , saith salomon , and one absurditie drawes on another . if constancie in the same state , and visibilitie in outward apparance were the indiuisible and essentiall markes of christes church , there might be some shew of these consequentes : but for the first , it hath often bene shewed , that the church is in scriptures and fathers resembled to the moone : which , howbeit nourished with earthly vapours , is lightned from the sunne , and the neerer the brighter ; yet by the interposition of the earth , hath her often eclipses : so the church of god for the bulk and greatnesse thereof , consisteth of men liuing on earth , but illumined by the son of righteousnesse shining with his graces , sanctified by his spirit , and therfore by the fathers defined coetus fidelium & electorum , and also confirmed in the catechisme decreed by the councell of trent , and published by pius quintus ; yet the opposition of the earth , both their owne earthly mēbers , which they carry about thē , the lusts & concupiscence which are within them , subiect thē to many imperfections ( as the moone is neuer without spots ) that they cannot continue the same tenor of sanctitie in the same vigour ; and of earthly men also , either the tyranny , or the superstition , or the ignorance of the world , or some , or all , obscuring it . constant it is , for durance , whether wee looke backward or forward : backward , hauing her beginning in paradise , founded not onely vpon the apostles , but the prophets , and therefore by dauid called congregatio ab initio . for , ex quo sancti vocātur , est e●clesia in terris , saith s. austen ▪ forward , ad consummationē seculi . matth. 28. therefore by the prophet intituled requies domini in sempiternum psal. 131. properly resembled to a vine psal. 80 the more it is pruned , the further it spreadeth ; herein differing , because the vine if it bleed , it dieth , but the churches bleeding is her breeding : constant , for assurance both of his protection , & of her saluation , beeing predestinate in gods prescience , sealed with the indelible character of his election nouit dominus qui sunt sui ; accompanied with his graces whose gifts and calling , are without recalling ; guarded by his power , for nenio rapiet eas de manibus meis ; regarded by his prouidēce stray they may as sheepe , perish they cannot ; ascertained of his fauour , louing them to the ende , whome he once begins to loue ; assisted by his spirite , which beeing semen 〈◊〉 1. ioh. 3. 9. dwelleth in them prayeth with them , pleadeth for them ; assured of their glorie , one lincke drawing on another , for whome he hath predestinate , called , sanctified , he cannot but glorifie . this constancie of continuance by succession of time we acknowledge in the churche , it beeing gods generation neuer fayling , but not in vnchangeable successe either for state or place , being a flock distressed , and dispersed ouer the whole earth ; sometimes so great , that we may say to it with esay , dilata locum tentorio tuo ; sometimes so small , that we may 〈◊〉 with the apostles domine pauci sunt qui saluantur ? as for v●sibilitie it is an externall ornament , no necessarie argument of christs church , which we are taught to beleue , not to behold ; it is catholike , & vniuer sale intelligitur , saith boetius , singulare sentitur ; the winde bloweth where it listeth , and wee know not whence it commeth , nor whether it goeth , but where the spirite is , there is the church : otherwise this argument would aswell befit bethel , where ieroboam his calues had more concourse , then the templeat ierusalem , and might iustifie the ephesians clamour , great is diana of ephesus ▪ whome all the world worshippeth ; and serue turkie as well as rome , their church being as apparant in shew , as ceremonius for rites , as superstitious in deuotion , as glorious in temples , and as auncient for succession as the romish synagogue ( since that faithfull citie became an hailot ) both of them beginning about the time of phocas anno domini 65 6. and good for the arrians , who measured the church by multitude , not qualine , saith nazianz. but let the church speak for her selfe , i am blacke ye daughters of ierusalem : let s● iohn describe her , a woman fled into a desert ; let stories hieroglyphically depaint her , noas arke , abrahams progenie , iobs familie , eliahs complaint , nabuchodonosers furnace , the apostles latent , with the doores shut , the christians couchant , when their liues were sought , the priuate liturgie in the time of traiane , and those antelucani hymni , which pliny mentioneth . but admit that successiue continuance , and conspicuous amplitude , were the true notes of the church , yet neither maketh this for rome , which hath had her many eclipses . duraeus confesseth , that from the time of s. peter , til the inuestiture of pope syluester , the bishops of that sea had no certayne place of aboade , but were inforced to performe their holy rites , in cryptis & coetibus piorum , in corners and priuate assemblies of the godly ▪ & so ciruetus doracensis , that the eucharist was offered occultè sine pompa ; and before the nicene councell the church of rome was little regarded as pius the secōd witnesseth . neither againe would this catholikes argument follow , it being no sound conclusion in logike , to reason from a locally scited synagogue to a church vniuersally diffused , that , because the iewes haue had a congregation visible , therefore it is to be preferred before christs church dispersed . in deede visible it hath bene , but miserable ; seene and scorned ; acknowledged , but detested ; orbis ludibrium & opprobrium ; in so much that some stories record , and trauailers report , that those places into which they are remaunded , carry with thē such a noysome & strong smell , as may be compared to the remainders of sodome destroyed . but haue not the protestantes particular churches , beene as conspicuous as rome it selfe ? view denmarke , polonia , boeme , russia , germany , flaunders , scotland , and principally albion , truely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , england i meane● , so splendently appearing these 60. yeares together ( onely a quinquenniall eclyps dreadfull and bloudie excepted ) that the glory thereof , hath inraged sathan and his complices with furious discontentments , the beautie allured straungers from farre , desiring to approache it , that they might say with dauid sicuti audiuimus , sic vidimus , & we with him , sic videntes admirati sunt : & yet still he goeth on . which is the onely path to lead men into atheisme , as though christ were not as yet come into the world , whose a admirable promises , are not accomplished , b whose assistance hath failed in preseruinge his church , vnto the worldes ende , c whose presence was absent many yeares before the finall consummation , & consequently they open the gap to al machiuellians , who say that our sauiour was one of the deceiuers of the world , promising so much concerning his church , and performing so little . answere . — cytharoedus ridiculus , chorda qui semper oberrat eâdem . where a man makes his shadow his combatant , or appointeth his enemie his weapon , the victorie is easie ; still he supposeth that weegraunt , the church must bee visible , or els this his second corollary must be true , wherein he would conclude , that the inuisibilitie of christes church is the gap to athe●sme , 1. denying the certainetie of christes first comming , 2. the accomplishment of his promises , 3. the assistance of his protection , 4. the presence of his power . the cōtrary were true . fortake the proportion of the body by the head , his first aduent being altogether in obscuritie , his conception reuealed onely to his mother , his birth made knowne to a few shepeheardes , his lodging allotted in a cratch ; in accompt so base , that he was reputed , as bernard speaketh , pro despicatissimo vernaculo , immò vermiculo , his inward glorie so great , that the prophesie was verified speciosus prae filiis hominū ; in outward shew so meane , that esay his description was fullfilled , in quos nec species , nec decor : ( which was the iewes stumbling blocke , who admitted no good out of galilee and nazareth ; and the disciples scandall , who still expected his imperiall diademe ) so his body the church , begun in a few , not known to the world , or if known , persecuted , euen as her head christ , quem viderunt & oderunt : his second comming shall bee maiesticall , and the church triumphant , shal be conspicuous : therefore this argument inuerted , is the sounder , videlicet , the state of the body being proportionable to the apparition of the head , ascertayneth to the world his first comming : but the inuisibilitie of the church militant on earth , is proportionable to christ his personall appearance in his first aduent ; ergo it ascertaineth that he is already come . so for the second , scilicet , the accomplishment of his promises . the more ● catholike the church , the more those promises by christ warranted , by esay prophecied , by this pamphleter alleadged , are in trueth accomplished , and our new romani●●es dealing with the church , as the olde romanes with their goddesse victoria , clipping her winges ▪ and chayning her to rome do both fa●sifie the prophete ; prediction , and p●nion too straightly the large dona●ue of christ. the prophecy was , that the church gate should be open continually , that the riches of the gentiles , and their kinges might be brought in , and the nations standing out should perish . therefore to restraine this vniuersall subiection to iewry alone , as the apostles once ignorantly supposed , and the iewes afterward arrogantly contended ; or to rome , which all her champions haue so challenged , were to abridge most presumptuously , those bountifull promises which dauid prophecied , that egipt , babylon , tyre , aethiope , and palestina , should be borne in her and to her ; and that redemption , which the elders confessed with ioy , out of euery tribe , nation , and kingdome : for the church is not gathered ex vna gente , sed ex vniuersis mundi partibus reges paritura saith austen not of one people , but of all the partes of the world , bringing foorth kings , which shold be , as esay prophecied , foster fathers , and queenes to be nursing mothers to the church ; preresembled in those three kings or sages , which came from farre , to do personall homage vnto her head , and king at bethleem ; and long before that , in s. austens opinion , prefigured in the queene of saba , her long iourney to salomon . and albeit in the primitiue nonage of the church , this promise of kinges allegiaunce thereunto , was not so fully àccomplished , because in those dayes , that prophesie of our sauiour , was rather verified , you shall be brought before kings for my names sake , by them to be persecuted euen to death ; the best of the kings , for a long time , reaching but to king agrippa his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a slender inclination to religion , . and the first●king christened that euer we read of , lucius the k. of england● which was 180. yeares after christ ; and alexander seuerus the i. emperour , qui bené de christianis sentire coepit , which was 230. yeares after ; yet both before that time , was the promise , by esay prophecied , accomplished in the gathering of the gentiles ; & in processe of time , the number so incresed , though still inuisiblie , that as her loue said in the canticles , there are threescore queenes and fourescore concubines , and of the daughters without number . as for those homages , or rather base vassalages of emperours and kinges , and that much bragd of donation , which pipine king of france , gaue to steuen the 2. and his successours , in lieu of the pope his absoluing this rebell from his loyall allegiance to his lawfull prince , ( falsly intituled constantines donation ) are nothing within the circuite of esay his prophecy , alleadged by this libeller ; but rather which s. iohn foresaw , and reuealed , that the kings of the earth should commit fornication with the strumpet of babylon . the two last are easily reioyned , for the spirite of god , which is christ his viceroy he●e on earth , both for his preseruing assistaunce , and powerfull presence , as hee is called the holy ghost , sanctifying the elect in their hartes and actions ; and a doctor informing their mindes ; and a pledge assuring their consciences against the day of redemption ; so is he principally called the pa●aclete or comforter , both assisting thē in their troubles , and comforting them in their afflictions : so that , if this were the eu●dent marke , and continuall state of christes church to be outwardly glorious , what neede it either a protector to defend it , or a comforter to support it ? for the whole neede not the phisi●ion , but the sicke . therfore because the church should still be endaung●red , he promised his assistaunce ; and because dismayed , his presence ; both effectuall , yet alwayes inuisible . for so saith bernard , there are three aduents of christ , in the first , he was seene on earth , couuersing with men in flesh and infirmitie ; in the last hee shal be seene in ●eauen , in glory , and m●●estle : the middle aduent , which hath-beene since his ascention , and is now continuall , occultus est , & soli electi in seipsis vident ●um , in spirite and power . then our position , denying the cōspi●uous constant visibilitie of the church truly cathelike , to be an essentiall note thereof , is neyther negatiue of christ his aduent , nor impeachment of his promises , nor weakening his assistance , nor abandoning his presence : but the poorer and weaker his flocke , the more admirable is the accomplishment of his promises , and the more to be magnified is his protecting power , & his powerfull presence . for , my power is per●ected in weaknesse , saith himselfe to paul. for atheisme and machiauelisme , in the church of rome they bred & from thence haue beene spred , for all her glorious conspicuitie . melch. canus constantly auoucheth , italy to bee the very fountaine of atheistes . machiauell was a florentine , and the authour of that detestable libell , de t●ibus impostoribus , whether aretinus or postellus , eyther an italian or a frenchman , neither of them a visible mēber of any reformed church . and not to ransacke all corners , let a pope of rome speake for rome it selfe , so glorious , so gorgious , so constant . pius quintus often spake it with griefe , roman adhuc magis gentiliz are quàm christianizare , and it is not 50. yeares since hee died , that rome was yet more heathenish then christian● so thē we conclude this point of visibilitie , with that speech of clement . alexandr . any thing becomes a christian better 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 then to be pompous : if euery christian , whose bodie is the temple of the holy ghost , much more the church , which is the body of christ , should not glorie in her pompe . the second article . the learned protestants are infidels . 1 whosoeuer buildeth his faith vpon his owne priuate , and singular exposition of scripture , is an infidell . this is his mai●r . aunsweare . strumpettes , they say , haue more easie deliuerie in their trauaile , then honest womē ; and sophisticall arguments are sooner framed then true syllogismes : the tearmes of this proposition being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the connexion will not hold , for faith and infidelitie beeing ex diametro opposite cānot agree at the same time in the same subiect . is it a trueth which he buildes ? then the builder is no infidell , is it a falshood ? then that which he buildes is not faith but errour . all knowledge in diuinitie is threefold , as the light is , opinion , compared to the twylight ; faith , to the dawning ; science , to the sunne shine ; the first is neither certaine , nor euident , being still in formidine oppositi , and so resoluing vpon nothing , falleth either in obliquum ambigui , or errorem mendacii , and is the very fountaine of atheisme and heresie ; at the best , it is but that which s. paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a very morphew & faint colour of knowledge . the third ( scienti● ) is both certaine and euident , which being within the compasse of s. paul his non 〈◊〉 , in respect of vs , is proper to that other li●e , saith basil , where we shal know euen as we are knowne ; because we having here not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as damascen speaketh , but compassed about with this vaile of flesh , haue no other knowledge but 〈…〉 in part and vnperfect . the middle therefore which is faith is certaine but not euident , being of thinges not seene heb. 11. quia valdé remota est a sensibus 〈◊〉 saith s. augustine . but there being exfide in fidem rom. 1. 17. degrees in ●aith , he which reacheth not the highest step , is not to be concluded an infidell : for , 〈◊〉 in vniuersali , errans in particulari is no infidelitie in the iudgment of the schooles ; els the apostles deriring to haue their faith increased luc. 17. might bee accompted infidels , and the apostle his difference betweene a weakeling in faith and an infidel , were superfluous , wherefore as in that morall precept of epicharmus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be the strength , & ioynts of wisedome , there is not inioyned an academicall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an obstinate restrainte of the assent to any thing we reade or heare , but a prepensed deliberation , not to be rashly credulous : so in diuine knowledge , faith , being by s. austen defined intellectus cum assensu , they whome christ calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 slowe of heart to bel●eue , were not to bee intituled infidels . for tarditie and suspence of the assent , may arise by some obstacle not remooued , but infidelitie proceedes from a pertinacie of the minde . therefore his proposition had bene more theologicall and logicall , whosoeuer builds his opinion or his errour is an infidell . for nothing is to be accompted faith , whose obiect is not veritas prima ; againe , building of a mans faith argues his desire to be confirmed therin , a thing not incident to an infidell . for all infidelitie is purae negationis or prauae , either priuatiue or contrary : the first in them to whome the trueth was neuer reuealed , as the pagans and heathen , which haue not the knowledge of god ; and these can haue no desire to confirme their faith which they haue not , for ignotinulla cupido : the other , in them to whome the trueth is manifested , which , with dauid , wee may call the adders infidelitie . psalm . 58. 4. that will not heare the voyce of the charmer , nor beleeue the prophets report . esay 53. 1. but resist the holy ghost , and the trueth reuealed act. 7. ( the fathers distinguish thē , with non audire , and nolle audire ) and this beeing an opposition ioyned with a contempt of the trueth , is right infidelitie , and the defence of such an one his opinion , is not to be called a rearing but a rasing , not a building but a demolition of faith . if it be obiected that he speakes not of faith in definitely , but limittes it personally , his faith , which may be false ; i aunsweare , that any mans faith , if it bee proportionable to the generall faith receiued , neede no other building , then that which is allready vpon the prophets and apostles ephes. 2. if exorbitant from it , then it is no faith , but either an erronious opinion in the conceite , or hereticall in the defence , and so no faith , because fidei non potes● subesse aliquod falsum . if by his faith hee meane an outwarde profession , hee gaines nought by it , because any mans profession is either true or false , according to his knowledge . and so the maior is euery way absurd . yet thus hee confirmes it by two arguments , first , from the nature of faith , secondly , from the daunger of priuate exposition . 1 because faith must bee infallible , and impossible to be either erroneous or chaungeable . aunsweare ex tuo ore●serue nequam . if this be true in faith generally , then he which buildes his faith , that is , ascertaines vnto himself the knowledge of trueth howsoeuer , neither buildes towers in the aire , nor makes by-pathes in the way idest , neyther conceiues fancies easily mutable , nor stablisheth errours daungerously deceiueable , much lesse is an infidell ▪ true it is , that faith is an assent with an assuraunce , which certitude makes it differ from opinion , doubtfulnesse , and suspition , the inseparable pages of him , whom s. iames calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . iac. 1. 8 yet there . may be in faith both assenting , & assuring , at sometimes and in some pointes hoesitance and wauering , which demonstrate mans infirmitie , not to bee called infidelitie . for though christ haue prayed that the faith of his chosen may not suffer an eclipse either totall or finall luc. 22. yet euen the saints of god , haue their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and defectes in faith , 1. thess. 3. 10. yea , with faith , especially of assent , there may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mar. 9. 24. which must bee translated incredulitie for want of that full perswasion which s. paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 heb. 10. 22. not ininfidelitie , which , beeing an obdurate pertinacie he calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ephes. 4. 19. and therefore some of their owne writers ventilating the title of alphonsus , dubius in fide infidelis est , are bold to say , that this is but iuris . fictio , not reiveritas , vnlesse with that doubting there bee ioyned pertinacia . for , subscribing to an heresie affectu alliciente , non errante intellectu , though in the suspition of the law it be infidelitie , yet in truth and properly it is not so , saith canus . his second argument followeth . 2 but faith which is builded vppon priuate exposition of scripture , is subiect to errour and change , and consequently vpon better aduice , & consiration may be altted . aunsweare his meaning of priuate exposition , wee will examine in the minor : onely here in a word , let vs trie whether faith builded vpon publike exposition be vnchangeablie true , and may not be altered . by publike exposition , wee meane , as they , the church , councels , fathers , or in truth , the pope only . for so canus will haue it , because to him alone was giuen priuilegium infirmitatis not to erre in his definitiues of faith ( in decreto fidei ) i demaunde therefore , beginninge with s. austen , the opinions which hee once held , and after retracted , were they built vpon priuate or publike exposition ? if vppon his owne priuate , then , by this fellowes maior , he was at the same time both a christian & an infidell : if vpon publike , then a faith so builte also may bee chaungeable . the sentences of councels are publike expositions , is faith vnfallible grounded vpon them ? alteration must be when expositions are contradictory , and these haue bene often seene in councels , that speach of s. austen holding true , plenaria concilia soepé priora a posterioribus emendantur . as for popes , the obseruation hath beene well made , that since the time of stephen the vi. it hath bene the custome of popes , rising either from enuie , or vaine-glory , the succeeding bishops acta priorum aut infringerent , aut omninó tollerent , would either narrowly empale , or vtterly repeale the decrees of their predecessors . and that the sea apostolike may erre in faith , not our men alone , but very many of theirs , cited euen by canus himselfe , doe dispute and conclude . so then my short conclusion is against this proposition , first , that he which buildes his faith , is no infidell , secondly , that the mutabilite or errour in matters of faith is the euent non expositionis priuatae , but depranatae , not the singuler interpretation of any mā , but that which s. peter calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a distorted corruption of the text , whether publike or priuate . his minor followeth : 2 but all protestantes builde their faith vpon their owne priuate exposition of scripture . aunsweare . if by priuate exposition he meane as moses speaketh nombers 16. 28. a mans owne fancie without gods direction , wee deny this assumption : we say with s. peter that no prophesie , whether of the olde testament for prediction or of the new , for interpretation is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any priuate explanation , but holy men in the law forespoke , and in the gospell expound as they are moued by the spirite . we say with paul that the naturall man cannot perceiue the thinges of god. 1. cor. 2. yet that phrase of his withall must be remembred alij datur interpretatio sermonum . 1. corr. 1● . to some one particular man a thing may bee reuealed , vnknowne to the rest . 1 cor. 14. in the exposition of scripture it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which must carrie it ephes. 4. 14. neither a sence cogd or numbred , that as in dicing ( from that game the woord is borrowed ) the more spots the better cast ; so in expounding , the more voyces the sounder sence . for not the spouse onely , that is the whole church , but & tu quoque saith bernard , euen one singular partie , finding that in himselfe which dauid did , in meditationibus meis exardescit ignis , psal. 39. 3. the assistaunce of gods spirite in his studies , may boldly pronounce of himselfe particularly , as the church in generall introduxit me rex in cellam vinariam . cant. 2. 4. euen vnto me ( as hee expounds it ) hath he reuealed the vnderstanding of his mysteries . and therefore both canus graunts that vnicuique perse , to euerie particuler man , the doctrine of faith may bee euident , if hee haue the spirite of god in him ; and a great lawyer of theirs thinkes that he deserues more credite , though he be vnus aliquis , hauing scripture his witnesse , then the huge multitude of the aduerse part without that proofe . so then , grounding vppon that distinction of s. paul ( in a case not farre different ) 2. cor. 3. 5. a nobis , & ex nobis , if it be an exposition giuen by a priuate man a se , from himselfe , by the assistaunce of gods spirite , and the annointing within him 1. ioh. 2. 27. it is sound by that rule of the apostle , the spirituall man discerneth all thinges 1. cor. 2. and by the iudgement of a learned cardinall , such an one his sence , concording with the text , is to be warranted against the whole current and torrent of the fathers ; and the councell of nice put it in practise , in preferring the sole iudgement of paphnutius before so many of a contrary concord : but if it be ex se of his owne braine , and inuention like the spiders webb . esa. 59. wrought out of her owne substance , we denie it , neither relie wee on it . and therefore wee say that a mans priuate exposition may be allowed , so it be not his owne priuate , that is , of his own wit and reason , without ground of scripture . yet he confirmes his minor by a prosyllogisme either they builde their faith vppon their owne priuate opinion , in expounding the scripture , or the church , or the fathers , or councels , but not vpon these three , ergó vpon their owne . aunsweare . the argument is vnsound being fallacia diuisionis ; for there is another building , which christ calleth the wisemans founding , not vpon men , they are but sand , but vpon the rocke which is christ & his doctrine ; the beraeans building , expounding scriptures by cōference of scriptures , which s. austen calleth the rule of faith , chrysostome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the most exact ballance to weigh the trueth ; cyprian originem euangelicam , fontem dominicum , the springing fountaine that neuer failes vs , whereas the fathers , and councels , like the waters of tema , especially in exposition , deceaue vs at our greatest neede : all of them hauing many errours confessed by themselues , manife●t contradictions obserued by others , diuerse ●arres in great pointes of faith , as hee might demonstrate too plainely , which would play c ham his part in discouering their nakednesse . yet we read them , note them , admire them , quoate them , profite by them , praise god for them , refuse them not in any romish controuersie , rest not on them , but , imitate that wisedome of trauailers in plutarke his iudgement , who passing by many goodly cities , view them & take delight in them , yet settle thēselues in one principall , where they may haue more certaine profite , with lesse daunger . for should not a people enquire at their god ? saith esay ; whose oracle is the scriptures . which christ cōmaunds to search ioh. 5. they being that more certaine word of prophesie , to which , we doe well if we attend , saith peter : yea , by their owne cōfession , vltima resolutio fidei , the last repose of our ●aith , must not be either vppon the church , that is too generall ; nor vpon the fathers , that is more rusticall then diuine , ( iustici ●otius quàm theologi videamur ) for so do the saracens vppon their maisters , the iewes on their rabbins , the gentiles on their philosophers ; much lesse vpon the pope , that were too pythagoricall , ipse dixit ; & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( according to the prouerbe ) too poetlike , who , when in their tragedies they are come to an exigent , which they cannot extricate , they haue a god in an engine , whome they turne downe with a deuice to make vp the matter . the last and safest refuge is therefore , which esay prescribeth , ad legem & testimonium . esay . 8. 20. to the law and to the testimony ; for whether shall we goe , saith peter , here are the wordes of eternall life ? that so wee may say of the fathers and councels , as the samaritans to that woman iohn 4. now we beleue , not because of thy saying , for wee haue heard him our selues , and know that this is indeede the christ the sauiour of the world . but here is the question , who shall interprete them ? s. iohn will answeare , you neede not that any man teach you the annointing within you , teacheth you all thinges . 1. ioh. 2. but this is priuate exposition ? nothing lesse ; a sw●rne notary , though a priuate man , yet his hand and testimony alone , passeth for authenticall and publike : the holy gho●t , the principall register of the trinitie , the hand of god wherewith the law was grauen ; the lordes arme wherwith the gospell is made powerfull ; the finger of god which wrought all miracles warranted ; the penne-guide of the euangelists ; the tongue of the apostles ; the suggestor of trueth vnto the faithfull ; though he be , as s. austen cals him , internus magister , and speaketh within vs , yet beeing the spirite of trueth , and knowledge , and counsell . es. 11. 2. his sole testimony counteruailes the authoritie of all outward and ministeriall witnesses . the church , councels , fathers , are no better then the apostles ; who confesse themselues to bee but ministers , per quos credimus . 1. cor. 3. he is the doctor c●i credimus . ephes. 1. 13. and fides in infusa , by cōfession of schoolemen , which is the operation of the spirite , must preuent fidem acquisitam , which commeth by hearing , and the ministerie of men ; for lydias hart must be opened , before shee can profite by hearing . act. 16. and he which hath the key of dauid , apoc. 3. 7. hath this prerogatiue , before them that haue the keyes of knowledge . luc. 11. 52. and therefore the order of the holy ghost , is by some of them obserued , in saying : the people beleeued god , and his seruant moses . exod. 14. 31. not moses before , but first the lord● , and then his minister . the principall act of faith , is assent to those things that are credibilia , saith aquin. all which amounting the reach of mans reason naturall , it must be wrought by a supernaturall cause within , and that is gods spirite alone ; not our selues , that is gentilisme , and denied by s. paul. eph. 2. not party perpale , first , our selues , and then god , that is pelagianisme , and confuted by s. austen ; not by a miracle seene , or men perswading , those are outward inducementes , no sufficient inforcementes ▪ and yet we say with paule , that faith commeth by hearing rom. 10. that is by fathers , councels , and church testimony , distinguishing , as gorram one of their own doth , by them praeparatiué , by god effectiué . & therefore no reason we should build onr faith vpon them , beeing but mediate witnesses , not immediate causes . and so wee cōclude with aquin as in his own words , innititur fides nostra reuelationi apostolis & prophetis facta , our faith is built vpon the doctrine of the prophets and apostles . and with canus ( alludinge to that speeche of quintilian for grammer ) that the canonicall writ , is that foundation , on which vnlesse we build our faith , quicquid superstruxeris corru●t , whatsoeuer we reare will fall . and now his syllogisme is concluded , his article might haue ended , but his after wit telling him , that his reasons examined , would proue but scopae dissolutae : the article and the argument not agreeing ; that , proclayming only the learned protestantes infidels : this , cōcluding that all protestants are so , and the reason of both , because they refuse the fathers expositions ; he now turnes zenoes fist into a palme , and leaues his logike for a figure in rhetorike , which they call correctio dicti . campian belike hauing rubd him by the elbow , and telling him , that some protestantes allowe the fathers and their expositions ; so farre forth as they agree with gods worde , and no further ; but this is nothing but to delude the world . aunsweare in deede thucydides neuer spake it more truly , then we may 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 herehence haue risen both the mortall spite of rome against vs ; and also this title of infidelitie , because we make rectum to be iudex sui & obliqui ; for vsing the scriptures as a fanne for the fathers , to winnow their chaffe from their graine ; for vrging that place of the prophet esa 8. of all writers both auncient and moderne , if they speake not according to this rule , there is no light in them . which is no other thinge then the fathers themselues wish , and require tertullian reiects any mans arbitrium suum , vnlesse it bee according to the doctrine taught by christ and preached by the apostles ; cyprian regardes not quid hic aut ille , but what christ did or spake ; it was not parentum or maiorum authoritas which made s. ierome to stoope , but onely dei docentis imperinm . not to speake of nazianz. who peremptorily avoweth that our doctrine is pythagoricall dixit dominus , without reason naturall , or fathers a●thoritie ; but austen cries away with our papers , codex domini pr●cedat in medium . and excellently to this present purpose els where , there are bookes , saith he , quos non licet iudicare , sed secundum quos alij iudicandi . videlicet , the bookes canonicall , which we are not to iudge , but according to which other doctors are to be censured ; no other thing then the sounder schoolemen doe auouch , in admitting onely that to bee the church doctrine , quae procedit ex veritate prima in sacris literis manifestata . no other , briefly , but what the apostle inforceth , that if we receiue the witnesse of men , the witnesse of god is greater . for , let god be true and euery man a liar . rom. 3. neither is this a delusion of the world , but a religiō to our god , & our reuerence to his word ; an appeale from men subiect to ouersights and affection , vnto the holy spirite perfect and vnpartiall ; in making the scriptures the touchstone of their writings ; especially hauing to deale with such romish impostors , s. basill cals them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , corrupting all the fathers , and counterfayting many of them : dealing in the first , as procrustes with his guestes in his bed , eyther hacking them off , or racking them out , as may fit their fancies ; in the other as caligula with iupiters idole , tooke off the gods head , & set his owne in place thereof , citing fathers that were neuer extant : but as the poet saide , nil mihi vis , & vis cuncta licere tibi : our reuoking the fathers to scriptures touch , is delusion , but when some of their own say , that the fathers are no fathers if they swa●ue from the church doctrine , that is rome , or the pope , as duraeus doth ; and others , that both the church and pope haue authoritie aboue fathers , and against scriptures , as canus discourseth at large ( an opinion which is the verie male-engine of all sound diuinitie ) this is plaine dealing & allowable marrie , saint chrysostome is so farre from counting it a delusion , the course we take , that he thinkes it a grosse absurditie among christians to be so warie , that in paiment of monie we will not credite men , but numero & calculo committere , tell it after them , cast the sums , number the poundes , weigh the golde ; & yet in the grand pointes of faith , we wil rest vpon the bare sentence of fathers simplie , without due triall , especiallie hauing so perfect a touch and ballance as the word is to trie them by . and now from arguments he falles to questions , 4. in number . 1 for what meane they when they say , they will allow them so farre forth as they agree with scripture ? answere . if in this question hee aske what hee knowes , it is ironicall hypocrisie ; if not , it is ignorant follie : our meaning hath bin oft expressed , to be that of saint austens , to preferre saint paul himselfe before all , and aboue al doctors ( his expositors ) not concording with the text ; that as we are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so peremptorie and selfe louing , to take vp that olde verse , nostra haec sunt , veteres migrate coloni , vtterly to omit the fathers ; so we admit of them , as canus himselfe doth , reade them and alledge them with reuerence , yet with choyce & iudgement ( their soundnesse making vs more learned , their corruptions more wary ) least taking the chaffe with the wheate , as the prophet speaketh , that of lyrinensis prooue true , absoluuntur magist●i , condemnantur discipuli : whereas if you take the p●ecious from the vile , you shal be according to my word , saith the lord , ier. 15. 2 meane they perhaps , that if the fathers bring scriptures to prooue any point of religion now in controuersy , to allow that point as true ? aunsweare . we doe , with this prouiso of s. paule , that they do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that they march in a squadron , agree without difference in that point . 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that the scriptures they alleage be canonically warranted , regularly vnderstood , and rightly applyed . who shall iudge of this ? the prouerbe is , lapis aurum probat , aurum homines , the stone tries gold , and gold tries men : so the spirite of god trieth betweene the scriptures canonicall and apocryphall , & the scriptures trie the fathers , whether their sence bee sound or adulterate . 3 if so , why reiect they then s. austen & other fathers , who bring scripture to proue prayer for the dead ? yea and all controuersies almost in religion , the fathers prooue by scriptures when they dispute vpon them . answere . in promptu ratio est ; our answere is readie and briefe , first to augustine and the other fathers in this case , which was saint augustines to cyprian in the like . we repute not their writinges as canonicall , but iudge them by the canon ; if they accorde , cum laude corum , to their praise we admit them ; if they dissent , cum pace ●orum , by their leaue wee refuse them . which in this point is true : for epiphanius though mightily opposite in this opinion against aerius , cōfesseth that this is not praeceptum patris , but institutio matris , not any precept of scripture , ( where notwithstanding we reade of solemne funerals , and honourable memorials of the dead ) but a tradition of the fathers , and church , which is also tértullian his speach . secondly , for the thing it selfe , sithence it hath often and impregnably bin proued , that the praier for the disceased , neither preuaileth with god , nor auaileth the dead ; therefore chrysostome , howsoeuer a great patron for this point , concludes that it is but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a verie stage-play & mockerie . but of this poynt more in the treatie of purgatorie . for the last clause if it be true , wee commend it as an excellent precedent and paterne , desiring that they which so much glorie of the fathers , would therin imitate them . for this word the scriptures is that tower of dauid , wherin are a 1000. shields and tota armatura fortium , all weapons both defensiue and expugnatorie for all conflicts of controuersie , cant. 4. 4. 4 or perhaps they meane to admitt the fathers when they alleage scripture , but such as euery protestant shall allow of : so it be conformable to their fancies , & fit their new coyned gospell : and in this sence , who seeth not that euery paltrie companion will make himselfe not onely the true expositor of christes word , but also will preferre his exposition before all auncient fathers , when they daunce not after his pipe , and consent not with their heresies . aunsweare . these hick scorning termes of new coyned gospell , paltry companion , dauncing after his pipe : and those wordes also of fie●ie element , fancies , and heresies , beeing but the issues of a filthie braine , and loathsome stomacke , we returne into his throate , with the aunsweare of the philosopher , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a fennel stalke will not make a speare , nor such wordes sound proofes ; onely they argue an impatience , with a badde cause , and a worse conscience . the substaunce of this demaund is , if a priuate man may discerne of scriptures , whether truely or falsly alleaged by the fathers ? an answeare hee receiues in the rifling of his minor : if that cōtent him not , s paule will tell him that there is discretio spirituum a gift of the holy ghost , not tyed onely to the church and churchmen , but imparted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to euery man illumined by the spirite , imploring gods direction , and conferring scriptu●es : and therefore elswhere hee wisheth eueryman abundance in suo sensu . rom. 14. wherein as he giueth libertie for euerie man to haue his owne sense , so withall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to assure his conscience that this his meaning is rectified ; which certainty is wrought by prayer to god , diligent cōference , serious studies , often meditation , & the like ; all which beeing euident arguments of a spiritual man , his power is warranted , by saint paule , to discerne al things , euen profunda dei. whervpon canus inf●rs , that vnicuique praestan●● quod in se est , to euery man vsing the means before named , god giues vnderstāding sufficient in all matters of saluation : for the eare trieth wordes , as the mouth tasteth meate , saith iob as therefore the palate , if it be well affected , can discerne perfitely of the sapours which touch it , if infected , it cannot : so , saith he , the affection of a mind well disposed , is able to distinguish a truth frō an er●our . so true is that of the philosopher , qualis vnusquisque erit , tale etiam iudicium proferet . notwithstanding herein we verifie not that prouerbe to bring saul among the ●rophets , not to make men deuoide of gods spirit , though otherwise acutely witted , or excellent●ie learned , discerners of spirituall thinges ; wee knowe that the sha●pest philosophers comming to these mysteries , haue fared as the sodomites at lots doore ; as nazianzene speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as saint augustin , acut● obtusi , and as gerson obserueth , disputers in these poynts , vt caeci de coloribus : but knowing with all that the spirit bloweth where it listeth ioh. 3. we , with the apostle , grant this prerogatiue of true exposition , not to euerie man pelly melly , but to euery spirituall man , whom , because it so pleaseth this libeller , he entitles a paltry companion : but what sayth hee to his owne melchior canus ? who giues this power simplici mulierculae , to a silly woman , assigning his reason , quia ab vnctione docetur , because shee is annoynted with the spirit . and here i might nd , but that you sh●ll see either the impud●ncie , or the ignorance , as i gesse it , of this mate , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to the prouerbe as saint paul sayd of clergie marriage , 1. cor. 9. haue not i power to leade about a sister a wife ? so , say i , haue not we protestants as good authoritie to refuse the fathers vnsound expositions of scriptures , as well as the greasie shauelings among the papists , who reiect their soundest interpretations , crossing their proiects ? the rhemists renounce saint austen as an vnskilfull interpreter of super hanc petram , math. 16 pigh●us abiures him in the tract of o●iginall sinne . aug. steuc . barkes at saint ●erome in nomb. and deu. and bernardinus at both of them with a triuiall prouerbe of dormitat homerus : and duraeus the scot turnes off saint ieroms opinion of baruch his book with a quid tum postea ? thus these transam-eyed hypocrites can spie small motes in vs , not feeling their owne beames . the summe of this article , and the drift of this rennagate is , that fides i●plicita ; to driue vs to the streights which the philistines forced israel vnto , the sharpning our instruments , and the fetching our weapons frō their forge : that is , to beleeue as their church beleeues , without any triall or examination , and then wee should not bee infidels : but that is stopped by s. peter , who willes euerie one to bee readie in giuing an account of that fayth hee professeth , 1. pet. 3. 10. fayth it is not which is not certaine , nor aunswere cannot bee made , but by him which is assured ; but both aquinas and canus conclude , that the authoritie of doctours and fathers make fidem probabilem , nō certam , perswade fayth , but assure it not : and thus endes this second article . the third article . all protestants who are ignorant of the greeke & latine tongue are infidels . whosoeuer relieth his faith &c. aunsweare . it is the propertie of sophisters , saith s. augustine , grandi cothurno incedere , to make stately paces , & great shewes to vphold an ill cause , vel moram faciendo , if with nothing els , yet with standing vpon it : faine would this disputer with his sylly-iesticall method conclude vs all to be infidels , but he cannot find a medium to inforce that conclusion ; therefore as ixion lying with a cloud in stead of iuno begot a centaure , neyther man nor beast : so his malice , breeding with a conceit , in steed of learning , brings forth syllogismes , neyther sound nor acute , his arte beeing not sufficient to shape him a logician , nor his subtilty sharp inough to make him a sophister . so that his methode is , as one of their own 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 once spake in a like case , take it among you , and this it is . whosoeuer relieth his faith vpon the ministers credite and fidelitie is an infidell , hath no faith at all . but all protestantes in england ignorant of the greeke and hebrue tongues relie their faith vppon the ministe●s credite . ergo all those in englande ignoraunt of the greeke aud hebrue tongues h●ae no faith at all . answere . it is verie base logicke where the argument may bee returned vpon the replier , as the maior here may , the papistes beeing bound to relie their faith vpon the meere authoritie of the church without deniall or triall , which therefore they call fidem implicitam , a faith inuolued and folded within the church beleefe . and it is verie meane sophistrie where there is mendatium manifestum as in the minor is euident , and a ridiculous syllogisme , where according to the prouerbe , aliud leucon , aliud portat illius asinus . the propositiō to be proued being that all protestants ignorant of the greeke and latine tongues are infidels , his conclusion inferring this is , that all ignoraunt of the greeke and hebrew tongues are infidels , as if the latin and hebrew were all one idiom . but bee it as it is , the maior was cut off by mee in the precedent article , the summe whereof is , that where faith is , there cannot be infidelitie ; the minor is there also answered by his owne assumption , for if we builde our faith vpon our owne exposition , as there hee saieth , then this is false , that we relie our faith vpon the ministers credite , which here he assumeth : and therfore a briefe answere might be that of epimenides in s. paule , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 heretikes are euer liers ; and mendacem opor●et esse memorem , that prouerbe in quintilian . but let vs view his proofes . the maior is manifest : because a they themselues confesse that euery man may erre and doth erre , neyther haue they any warrant why the ministers do not erre , since they constantly doe defend , that whole generall councels , yea & the vniuersall catholike church may erre , and hath erred . aunsweare we deny the argumēt , the force wherof is , that they which belieue men that may erre , are infidels . for , not to dispute with the schoolemen , whether the infide●itie of heretikes or pagans is the worse , a knowne trueth resisted , aggrauating the sinne against the conscience , more then against him which knowes it not : yet saint augustine makes this difference betweene an heretike , and him that beleeues an heretike . the first begets or followes an errour pertinaciously , either for primacie or glorie : but haeretico credens , is onely caried away imaginatione veritatis : so , this mistaking a falshood for a truth , is satans mockerie , in his angelical illusion , not the parties infidelitie , in crediting a sinister perswaswasion . for learners caried away by their teachers , though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lying in ambush to seduce them , ephes. 4. in their assent are not infidels , the apostle calling this leuitie , a credulitie childish , not infidelitie which is euer peeuish : and therefore aquinas saith , that the teachers and masters of the church , failing in any truth diuine , non praeiudicant fidei simplicium , doe no way preiudice the faith of the vnlearned , quieos rectam fidem habere credunt , who still suppose that they will teach them nothing but truth . and is it any monster of opinion either in caluin or luther , to say that eyther men in seuerall , or councels in assembly , or church in generall may erre ? did not dauid in an hasty passion , and s. paul with due premeditation say the same ? all men are lyars . for councels , they said not so much as naz. who denied his presence at any councel , because he saw , as he said , neither good end , nor happy issue of any of them ; nor more then their owne men , who affirme that the sentēce of any councell , is but as aliue mans testament , ambulatoria , that is , alterable at the pleasure either of pope , or succeeding coūcell . yea they & we confesse with s. augustine , that religious councels haue saluberrimam authoritatem their soueraigne authoritie , yet not absolute integritie ; because , as he elsewhere noteth , the later haue oft times controled the former ; not in circumstances accidentall , as martin the mar-testament in his rhemish annotations would shake it oft , but in essentiall points & capitall , euē touching the pope his triple crowne , two councels crossing each other , about the primacie and supremacie of the romish bishop ; & other for baptising of heretikes , for priestes marriage , for worshipping of images , for distinctions of bookes canonicall and apocrypha , for humane traditions , all matters of high controuersie . and as for the church erring , the reader may obserue how this pamphleter , shewing himselfe more busie then intelligent , takes vpon him to epitomize those controuersies , which he cannot anatomize : for , first , we do not say , that the vniuersall catholike church may erre , because that parte triumphant in heauen , hath no spotte in her for manners , nor wrinckle for doctrine , but is euery way glorious and perfect . ephes 5. ma●ry that which is heere militant on earth , being but marching on to perfectiō , heb. 6. & going from strength to strength psalm . 84 , cannot as yet sound out that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and triumphant song of victory against all errours , vntill shee come to that day of perfection as salomon cals it . prou. 4. 18 ; and dauid calling the saintes generationem qu●rentium psal. 24. 6. and the apostle vi●tores trauailers heb. 11. 14. whose perfectiō , at the best , ius bt a iourny , ambulatoria per fidem , non per aspectum , walking by faith not by sight 2. cor. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 phil. 3. 14. not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vers . 12 : in inquisition not acquisition , tending and attending to that absolutenesse , both for knowledge & life , but not attayning it , no not then whē they come to paule his consummaui cursum , 2. tim. 4. therefore argue them subiect to errours fatales , nō lethales , such as follow the nature of man continually , not such as separate from god finally ; this sore trauaile is layd vpon men to humble them therby . secondly , if a man in this question of erring , should aske this companion ( beeing himselfe both errans and erro , a wanderer in true religion , and a runnagate from his natiue countrie ) what difference between these two positions , the generall councels may erre , and the church may erre ? the learneder papistes say , that when they auerre the church cannot erre , they meane that church which the schoolemen call ecclesiam repraesentatiuam , of which our sauiour speaketh , when he saith , dic ecclesiae , math. 18. viz. the bishops and prelates of the church , representing the whole church in generall councels ; and so these controuersies are identicall : for wee , saying that the councels may erre , therein with all implie ( and that by their owne confession ) that the churche may erre ; therefore thys libeller , affectinge such breuitie , mighte haue spared this last clause : but bold ignonorance is like salomon his guilt potsheard , prou. 26. it will bewray it selfe shew it neuer so glorious . but of this controuersie more hereafter in the fift article ; as for our ministers , neither themselues doe affect , nor any of ours defend their immunitie from possibilitie to erre , as pighius dooth in the apology of his popes ; who , as canus witnesseth , to rid anastasius from the brand of heresie , for which he was anathematized , reuileth gratian most a spitefully , raileth vpon the canonists most b filthily ; and to salue honorius his credite that way , calleth into questiō the authority of both the 6. and 7. councels . yea , wee say of our selues to our auditors , as the apostles to them of lystra . act. 14 , wee are euen men subiect to the like passions that yee bee . but what of this ? are they infidels therefore which beleue vs teaching the truth ? why ? peter halted , and erred in the right track of the gospell gal. 2. iohn would haue worshipped an aungell twise . apoc. 19. & 22. the apostles & brethrē in iudaea thought that the word of god was not to be preached to the gentiles , act. 11. ( all grosse errours ) is therefore the assent of the whole church to their doctrine in other pointes , though heerein taineted , infidelitie ? god forbid . in one word , to trusse vp this maior with a short aunsweare , if this proposition be true , that the relying of a mans faith vpō the ministers credite , is infidelitie , the whole crue of lay papistes , is but a rout of infidels ; for , by their owne rules , the onely and all sufficient faith of the laitie , must bee nothing els , but praescriptum pastorum , that which their shauelinges teach and limit them , which faith thus scanteled , this fellow accomptes infidelitie , and therefore the argument rather concernes them then vs , who denie our faith to be lyable vpon the credite of any mortall man , albeit hee auowes it in his minor , and thus would prooue it . the minor i prooue ; for all such protestantes ground their faith vpon the bible trāslated into english , the which translation , they know not whether it be true or false , whether the minister tindall , for example , erred or no , eyther vppon ignorance , as a broughton , one of the greatest linguists among the precisians affirmeth , in an epistle dedicated to the ll. of the councell : or vpon malice to induce the people to protestancie , and to cause them to leaue the catholike religion , as gregory martin in his discouerie most pregnantly prooueth . these errors , i say , they know not , & consequently cannot discerne a true translation from a false , and therefore must needes relie their faith vppon the silly ministers faithlesse fidelitie , which co●uinceth that they haue no faith at all . aunsweare . thinke you this fellow meaneth what moses would ? that as hee vppon zeale , to quell ioshuaes enuie , wished that all the lordes people could prophesy , nomb. 11 ▪ so this mate , vpon compassion of the laities ignorance , desireth with s. paule , that all sortes were skillfull in the originall languages ? first that were not conuenient , as agreeing neither with that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that multi-varietie of gods wisedome , eph. 3. 10. in disposing his guiftes , not the same to all , nor to all alike 1. cor. 12. but to some aboue others , as this guift of tongues : nor with the church gouernement , for orders beeing appointed in the church , some to be pastours and teachers , other to heare and learne ; the first haue receyued that key of knowledge , to open and shut , luc. 11. such guiftes whereby they are enabled to bee both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sufficient to instruct , & forcible to con●ute . 2. tim. 3. as the skill in tongues , the helpe of artes , the dexteritie of interpretation , the intelligence of mysteries , the vse and varietie of bookes , that so they may bee , as salomon entitles them , masters of the assemblies eccles. 1● . all which , or most of them , god hath denied to the meany , beeing prone inough of themselues , ignorant as they are , to controll the priest , hos. 4. and would much more , if they had this panoplie of learning . nether is it probable , that they , whiche apply our sauiour his prouerbe to the commonaltie , ne margaritas porcis , making them but swine ; and thinke as basely of the laitie , as the phariseis , ioh. 7. this rude people is accursed , such great patrones of scripture-ignoraunce , should eyther haue elias his zeale for the lord of hostes glory , 1. reg. 19. or christes compassion for the peoples want of instruction , math. 9. or s. peters care of the words synceritie , ● . pet. 2 : nor that thēselues , the best of them being bound , vnder the pain of anathema , to fetch water from that cistern of the vulgar latine , which they haue canonized authenticall in their tridentine conuenticle , would turne the people to the pure fountaines of the greeke and hebrew ; nothing lesse . for to a contrary purpose , as the spartans enacted , that none should walke by night with lanterne , torch , or any light ; so haue they forbidden the scriptures to bee vulgarly translated , least the light being put into a lanterne psal. 119 or set on a candlesticke , math ▪ 5. to giue light to all that are in the house indefinitely , the peoples vnderstanding might prooue the discouerie of those errours , wherewith be●fore they were by their owne ignorance mizeled , or by their blinde guides miss-led : so that their drift is in this their quarrell & mislike of trāslation , not that the scriptures should keepe their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. pet. 2. without mixture or blēding ; but that they might haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an vncouth , and vnperfect voyce without vnderstanding , 1. corint . 14. for would they in sooth , the vulgar sort should haue knowledge ? meanes they must prescribe , it being not bonum innatum , but seminatum saith bernar : because faith cometh by hearing , rom. 10. ( those immediate knowledges of reuelation and prophesy , the one a sodaine infusion , the other a successiue instinct , being long since antiquated ) the meanes therfore is , saith aquinas , either a mans owne studie and industry , eccles. 1. 13. which knowledge he calleth scientia , or other mens labor in preaching , and that hee cals doctrina , 1. cor. 14. 6. to the attayning whereof there are required , saith he else-where , both vis mentalis , the vigour of the mind , which is vnderstanding ; and corporalis , the aptitude of the body , which are the sences , two in number , of the eare and the eye , which both philosophers , and diuines call sensus disciplinarios , beecause knowledge accreweth vnto men ether by hearing or reading . in which case god hath excellently prouided to his people , for the eare viuam vocem , 1. cor. 14. 10 ▪ the preacher to instruct , for how can they heare without a preacher ? rom. 10. 14. & for the eye viuum sermonem , heb. 4. 12. written for our learning , rom. 15. 4. which all promiscuously are enioyned to read , both to accomplish his desire , who would that all men should be saued , and come to the knowledge of his trueth . 1. tim. 2. 4 & for the atchiuing our owne happinesse , which then is greatest , when wee are likest to him ; which likenesse saith basil without knowledge is not effected , nor knowledge without doctrine , nor doctrine without speech , nor speech without his partes , woordes , and syllables ; so that all are commaunded , if it be possibel , to reade , if not , to heare : now then the old rule holding true , oportet discentem credere , the learner must beleeue , here ariseth the question , what if his doctrine bee vnsound ? a remedy is prescribed by esay his direction , by the beraeans practise act. 17. trie it by the word written : but that perchance is vntruely trāslated , either through ignorance or malice , and so the vnlearned may be deceaued ? doth a papist make this supposition , & tute lepus es ? who , presenting to the idiotes the bible in a straunge tongue , neither mooue the eare , nor outward sence , vnlesse it bee with ratling in the aire , 1. cor. 14. 8. nor affect the vnderstanding , leauing it without fruite , vers . 14 but why should ignoraunce or malice bee more feared in our english editions , or rather preiudice our peoples assent thereunto , then either the greeke translation of the 70. interpreters , so diuinely magnified especially by s. augustine and epiphanius : or those of aquila , symmachus , theodotion , so oft cited by s. ierome , and a relique whereof yet remaines in the romish bibles ; and that of lucian the martyr in the church of antioch remembred by athanasius . or if some of them , which theodoretus affirmeth , were translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , peruersely and guilefullye , yet the vulgar translation , the authour whereof is vncertaine , and s. ieromes both into the latine and into the a sclauonian language ; as also that of vlphilas into the gottish tongue , and chrysostomes into the armenian , besides that famous worke of origen his exaplus , are as lyable to these imputations ; the most of these interpretors being tainted with some errours , and therefore , by this pamphl●tors rule , their translations are subiect either to ignorance or malice , as well as ours : or admit we , that they were more exquisite in the tongues then we , yet , not to speake of the brittish translations , & english also in the time of beda , what should hinder tindals , or the geneua translation into the english , not to deserue as much credite with our laitie , as that rhemish ridiculous version into the same idiome , with their catholike idiots ? his aunsweare is with a witnesse , because broughton auoucheth ignoraunce , and gregory martin findeth malice in our vernaculer translations . accipit & glebam erro according to the prouerb , he is neere driuen that hath no better choise . for want of kinges and queenes , he trumps about with the short-skirts a precision and a papist , mali thripes mali ipes , saith diogenian , a woorthy couple , the one growne mad with his selfe-louing phrensy , the other possessed with a popish lunacie , both of them runnagates from their naturall countrey . for that worthy martyr , and learned man tindall , in this respect , we say , as some of theirs of s. bernard , non vidi● omnia : and he of himselfe to his readers , as s. origen in the like , medicente quod sentio , i speak what i think , vos decernite , doe you iudge and examine , whether it be right or no : and for all our translations we obtrude them not vppon the church , as the trentish councell doth that vulgar edition , as scripture authentike as sybyllaes leaues , not any time to bee examined , not any part to be disauowed ( both these argumentes of ignorance and malice , for lex , quae probari se non vult , suspecta est , sayth tertullian . ) nor make them as sixtus v. the pope his vatican edition 89. vinculum pacis , fidei vnitatem , charitatis nexum &c. the bond of peace , the vnitie of fayth , the knotte of loue , the rule of trueth , the loadstone in errours , the irrefragable compounder of controuersies . onelye wee , by them doe cracke the shell ▪ that the kernell may lie open to the sight , & taste of any , that haue appetite thereunto . indeede gregory martin hath , in his pharisaicall discouerie , compassed sea and land , trauersed much grounde mounted himselfe vppon euery molehill , ransackt all corners , to descry our translatours ignorance and malice , and when all is doone , it is but the suruay of dronken zebull , iud. 9. a shadow of moūtaines for a band of souldiers : like the african tumult about s. ieromes escape , ●edera for cucurbita iona. 4. so that any collatour indifferent and learned in the originals , comparing ours with theirs , wil borrow moses his speech , and apply it more truely then bellarmin doth , their editions are not like ours , euen our enemies beeinge iudges . for not to speake of ss . ierome , augustine , and hilary , who complayned of many wantes and escapes in that translation , called by some of thē a vulgata , by others b itala , by gregory vetus : euē among themselues a pagnine for the olde , b budaeus for the new , c andradius , and d arias montanus for both the testamentes , haue acknowledged and found therein , not onely wordes , but sententiam etiam , euen the right sense ▪ & meaning of the holy ghost to be peruerted . yea sixtus aboue named , in his preface prefixed before his bible , intituled ad perpetuam rei memoriam , saith that , before his vatican edition , which was but anno 1589. this vete of theirs , their vulgar translation had prooued schismatis & haeresis inductio , dubitationum fluctus , inuolutio quaestionum , discordiarum seges , & pia●um mentium implicatio , the occasion of heresies , the sea of dou●tes , the labyrinth of questions , the seede of contentions , and a snare for religious minds . so then this imputation scommaticall of faithlesse fidelitie , fastened vpon our translatours by this libeller , may , in their owne mens censure , bee branded vppon themselues , and this whole argument returned vpon this articler , hâc formâ whosoeuer relieth his faith vpon a corrupt and vncertaine edition , is an infidell . but all papistes are bound to relie their faith vpon a corrupt edition . ergô all papistes are infidels , haue no faith at all . and this for his third article . the fourth article . the protestantes know not what they beleeue . the protestantes know not what they beleeue , nor why they beleeue . aunsweare . the white of an egge , without salt , is flash , and vnsauery , sayth iob , and malice without arte , is vnarmed bitternesse , and a distempered folly : and therefore as those iangling rudesbies , titular doctors in s. paules time , knew not what they spake , nor whereof they affirmed ; so saith ierō . heretikes cum disputare nesciant , tamen litigare non desinunt , though they cannot reason , yet they will wrangle , and for want of logicke , they will chop logicke . his syllogismes are wasted , now hee comes to profound diuisions of why , and what , and the protestantes ignorance in both , which he inforceth by a double reuiew . that they know not why they beleeue , i haue shewed before , for that the ground of their belefe , i● not the authoritie of the sc●ipture , of councels , of doctours , nor of the church , but their owne fancie . aunsweare . both these reuiewes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are returned with a remaund semblable , the first , where he hath shewed it , i haue aunsweared , and there let him search it : the second , with nazian . that tautology is no meanes of breuitie , a which hee so affectes in pretence , and request . but what diuinitie is this , to call a christians beliefe to a why ? vid●licet , to calculate the mysteries of faith by proofe of reason , a thing countercheckt by all the fathers , especially clement alex. in generall and particularly by eusebius in the antemonistes , who weighed all the articles of fa●th by logicall syllogismes . for some , which haue faith , saith s. augustine , haue not copiam defendendi fidem , not the skill to apologize their faith , or render reason thereof ; and hee which hath this skill , doctior est , non fidelior , is the greater clerke , not the ●ounder christian : & therfore his rule elsewher is , not to discusse the diuine mysteries , but to beleeue them ; non rationem requirere , sed fidem simpliciter exhibere . and the apostle s. peter , when he wils vs to be ready to satisfie euery man poscenti rationem des●e , that asketh a reason of our hope , meaneth , that neither we should be ashamed of our faith in our publike confession , nor to shame it by a depraued conuersation . for to giue a reason of matters of faith is not possible , they beeing supernaturall , and mans reason in that knowledge but a beast , saith ieremy . neyther , were it so , is it a faculty generall , but sapientum tantum saith aquinas . and they which desire , by questiōs ; to be resolued in the deepe mysteries of faith , doe it not as an●elme speaketh , vt per rationem ad fidem acceda●t , that by reasons or resolutions , they might be induced to beleeue , sed vt ●orum , qu● credunt , ontemplatione delectentur . for articles of faith , are the obiectes of admi●ing contemplation , not of logicall demonstration , saith basil. yet to follow this fellow his absurde methode , wee can shew him a t●iple why , three reasons of our beliefe , the cause why , the meanes why , and the ende why : the procatarcticall , or first moouing cause , the grace and power of the spirite inclining our hartes to beleeue : the demiurgical , or instrumentall meanes , the word of god read or preached . the teleioticall or finall cause eternall life , which wee by faith expect ; the first , for this purpose called spiritus fidei , 2. cor. 4. 13. the second , verbum fidei , 1. tim. 4. 6. the last , finis fidei . 1. pet. 1. 9. so then , the protestants why , is that which the schoolemen call , sufficiens inducti●um , not onely doctrina diuina , the holy scripture , sed quod plus est , saith aquinas , interior instinctus dei inuitantis , the inward inspiration , & motiō of the spirite . let the case be in that article of our belefe , the incarnatiō of christ , demand of a christiā why he belieues this , his answere wil be , because the scripture recordes it but reply vpon him , why he beleeues the scripture ? his reason exceedes a why , it is the finger of god opening his hart ; els , when s. peter handeled those great mysteries in his sermon , act. 2. why had some of them compunctionem spiritus , vers . ●7 . the pricking of the spirite , whereby their hartes were moued to beleeue ? but others of them , spiritum compunctionis rom. 11. their hartes pricking against the spirite , resisting it partly by doubting vers . 12. partly by scoffinge vers . 13. the same scripture opened to thē all , but the same spirite , not working alike in all . if any aske a why of this beliefe ? s. paule will crie out , not aunsweare , o altitudo . rom. 11. non est disputationis , sed stuporis , saith ambrose , it is a matter of amazemēt , not of argument . and therfore the scholemen define credere , to be an acte of the vnderstanding , assenting to the diuine trueth , ex imperio voluntat is , a deo motae , per gratiam , at the commaund of the will , so mooued by the grace and spirite of god : a resemblance familiar will make this euident . there are in euery man three parts . 1. thes. 5. 23. flesh soule , and spirite , or rather three men in one man , 1. cor. 2. the carnall , naturall , & the spirituall man ; and each of these hath his seuerall eye . that chrystalline humor for the body , the reason for the soule , and faith for the spirite . now , then as the eie of the body , thogh it be the cādle of the body math. 622. yet the apple in the eie , is the eie of that eie , saith philo ; and as the eie of the minde is reason , eccles. 2. 14. yet the eie of that eie , is the vnderstandinge , sayth aquinas : so the eie of the part regenerate , is faith , but the eie of that eie , is the spirite of god , for in his lighte , doe wee see light , psal. 36. 9. therefore as in the bodily sight , shine the sunne neuer so glorious , be the aire neuer so cleere , and the medium neuer so transparent , yet if the apple in the eie be vnsound , the sight will faile , and deceiue ( for he that lookes through a miste , saith basil , seeth a misse ) so be the media of our beliefe , optimé disposita , the scripture perspicuous , the church testimonie euidēt , the torrent of fathers euery way concurrent , the decrees of councels vnalterably constant ; yet if the spirite of god , qui & sensum dat , & assensum mouet , saith bernar. worke not vpon the wil forcing the assent thereto , all the other are in vaine . wherefore , if wee bee asked why we beleeue ? our aunsweare is , that we ascribe the cause to gods inspiration , and the meanes , to the words ministration . as for this cuckow-like palinodie of councels , doctours , and church , beeing the fa-burden of euery article hetherto , it argueth the barrennesse of his conceite , and the badnesse of his cause , but deserues no other aunsweare then hee hath receiued before . and now wee must come to his second profunditie , of what we beleeue . and that they knowe not what they beleeue is manifest , beecause they haue no rule , wherby to know what is matter of faith , and what is not . some will limit their beleefe to theire creed , saying , that nothing ought to be beleued which is not in the apostles creede : but then i would demande of them whether wee ought to beeleeue that the scripture is the word of god ? that baptisme is a sacrament ? that in the eucharist is the bodie of christ by faith ? to what article should these be reduced , seeing they are not contained in the creede ? or how shall wee know infallibly , how these be matters of faith , since they are not contained in the creede ? aunsweare . were the law of india and persiagenerally infortiat , that he which was thrise taken in a lie , might be perpetually silēced , this fourth article had perished in the libellers lunges , the three former beeing shamelesly false : but sithence he is of his nature , whome the poet describes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that hath neither grace to speake trueth , nor power to holde in his chatt ; artoxerxes law will fitte him better , as hee punished a liar with fastening three nailes into his tounge , so to choke him with three argumentes conuincing him of manifest vntrueth , in saying that it is manifest we haue no rule to know what is matter of faith . first , the holy ghost praescript , haec scriptasunt vt credamus , ioh. 20. secondly , our writers indesinent challenge prouoking , with the prophet esa. 8 , ad legem & testimonium . thirdly , their owne continuall clamours , crying out vppon vs , for making the scripture alone , the rule of life & beliefe , & the sole iudge in cōtrouersies . therfore let him know , that we know our selues to bee citizens , subiect to a prince , by whose law we are directed , which as the great philosopher in humane policie , we , with tertullian , call regulam veritatis , the 〈◊〉 of trueth ; with cyprian , regulam doctrin●●um , the rule of all learning ; with basil , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the rule of right ; with aquinas regulā intellectus nostri , the rule of our vnderstāding ; with carthusian regulā credendorum & agendorum , the rule of contemplation and action . for doctrine , wee say with esay , if any speake not according to this rule , it is , beecause there is no light in them ; for manners , with s. paul , as many as walke after this rule , peace be vpō them , and mercy : and so conclude with cyrill , that our faith is not deriued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 frō the inuention of man ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but from the demōstration of gods writ . it is their dunsticall glossary that prescribeth , in the discord of the foure doctours , to take augustins rule in disputationibus ; ieromes in translationibus ; gregories immoralibus ; forgetting s. ambrose , and therfore ambrosius spiera ( for names sake ) preferre his rule in iudicijs . but we say with s. augustine , sacra scriptura doctrinae nostrae regulam figit , the holy scripture frames the rule for our faith and profession . this is their torment , that we will not say to their pope in sooth , which s. augustine spake to faustus the manichee in a scoffe , ergo tu es regula veritatis ; and so acknowledge his definitiue to be the why and what ; the forme and matter , the rule and frame of our faith and beliefe . that which followeth of confining our beleefe to the creede , and accompting all other thinges extrauagant from faith , not combined within the apostles symbole , is this tatlers fancie , not our practise . for , first wee doubt not , but it is an apostolicall collection , agreeing with , and deriued from their doctrine , yet resolue not that it was the apostles frame . secondly , wee acknowledge it canonlike , but not canonicall , squared according to that rule the holy scriptures , but not the rule it selfe . thirdly , we vse it , being christs souldiers , as the romanes their tessera communis in warres , as a short placard , wherin is comprehended the summe of our profession , for that cause called , as s. austen writeth , symbolum , either in respect of the authors , arguing their vnitie in faith , euery one casting in his seuerall share ; or of vs , it being the christians shibboleth distinguishing gilead from ephraim , a true trained souldiour from a rude nouice , or counterfaite intruder , or open pagan . and , giue , that wee made it either the limitation of our faith , it is no more then the fathers haue done ; ambrose calles it s. peters key , strong inough to open and shut the gates of heauen . austen cals it certam regulam fidei , an vnfallible rule of faith . and so doth leo in his sermons de passione . or , if wee call it the perfection of all faith , it is no other then the same augustine hath done , who intitles it the abridgement of both testaments totum continens com pendio breuitatis ; and els where comprehensionem fidei nostrae & perfectionē , the simplicitie thereof , helping the rudenesse ; the shortnesse , assisting the memory ; the fulnesse , perfecting the doctrine of the professours : nor then s. hierome , who accomptes it the absolute breuiary christiani dogmatis ; no more then the schoolemen who call it summam credendorum , containing in it the whole matter of faith , vel explicitè vel implicit , éeither directly , or respectiuely ; for , whatsoeuer thinges are credenda , saith aquinas , are referred either ad esse naturae , and so respecte the whole story of the creation , and consequently the articles of the three persons , each of them hauing an hand in that great worke , as basil elegantly obserueth : or ad esse gratiae , which the creede presentes vnto vs in the articles of our redemption : or ad esse gloriae , which we expect by beleeuing the bodies resurrection , and the eternitie of life . briefly , our faith resting vpon that double couenant of god vnto his chosen , the first , i will bee thy god , is dilated in the former and larger part of the creede , teaching his omnipotency in the creation ; his mercy in our redemption by his sonne ; and the assistance of the holy spirite : the other , and they shall be my people , in the last part , from the catholike church vnto the ende . and yet for all these glorious prerogatiues of this apostolicall abstract , none of our writers haue made it the non vltrá of our faith , or the listes of our beleefe . but did wee so , what followes ? an horrible sacriledge insues , and threefold , that is , there is no article to make vs beleeue the scripture to be gods woord . that is fals , for beleuing in god the father , we acknowledge both his essence , & his prouidence ; in esse diuino , saith aquine , are included all those properties which wee beleue to be in god eternally , wheron dependeth vita beatitudinis , and amongst them his trueth : infide prouidentiae , all those thinges are comprised , which he hath temporally dispensed for mans saluation , which leade him in via beatitudinis , among these is the dispensation of his woord , which in our creede wee acknowledge to be his , in professing him to be a god , and therfore true , for god is not as man , that hee can lie . nomb. 23 but himselfe hath testified , 1. of the law , that it was the writing of his own finger , exo. 32. 2. of all the prophets , as he said to moyses os tuum sed verba mea , their mouth but his wordes exod. 4. for no prophecie is of priuate motion 2. pet. 1. 3. of the whole scripture , that euery addition , or substraction is hie treason against his maiestie , as counterfaiting his pattents apoc. 22. 18. and therefore the fathers expound the first credo , deum for the vnitie of essence ; deo , for the veritie of his woord : and in deum , for the assurance of his loue . secondly , the creede proues not baptisme to be a sacrament , yea but augustin is of opinion , that whatsoeuer concernes omne sacramentum suscipiendum , is therein contained . s. hierome thinkes , that euen in that one article of the resurrection of the flesh , omne sacramentum christiani dogmatis concluditur● and in trueth the sacramentes are , as i may so speake , a reall creede , acting that which the other enacteth , performing in deede , which in the symbole we professe in word , and are rather seales , then articles of faith . for baptisme , whether by immersion or aspersion , exemplifieth christes death , & confirmes that article of remission of sins ; and the eucharist presenteth the effusion of his bloud , ratifieng that article of his death and passion . summarily , for baptisme , s. augustine concludes , omne sacramentum baptismi in hoc constat , vt credamus resurrectionem corporum & remissionem peccatorum nobis a deo pr●estanda , and so it is reduced to two articles . but whether will we reduce , or how can we proue , by the creede , the presence of christ by faith in the eucharist ● surely much more easily , then they which defend his bodily carnall presence ; for this crosseth both the whole creede , beecause corporall presence must needes bee visible and palpable luc. 24. 39 , and so the obiect of the eie , not of faith ( for fides est eo●um quae non vides ) and , speciallyo , ne principall article of his ascent into heauen , there ●itting at the right hand of his father . wherefore s. bernard , as they write , tooke another course , for when one of his monkes could not bee perswaded either by the creede or the word , that christes body should be in the eucharist really , and carnally , so forbore a long space the communion ; at last the good abbot cals him , and i charge thee , quoth hee , vpon vertue of thy sworne obedience , vt mea fide vadas & communices . and thus , not the apostles creede , but s. bern. faith must inforce that presence . as for the sacramentall presence by faith , it may be reduced to all those articles which acknowledge christ in his two formes , as paule speaketh ; for he willeth vs so ofte as wee do celebrate , to doe it in remembraunce of him , videlicet , of him , in the forme of a seruant , incarnate , iudged , crucified , & dead : and of him , in the forme of god , in assurance of his comming to iudge both quick and deade . lastly , for the creede it selfe , we are no otherwise tied vnto it , then the fathers , who vsed other as well as this , both the nicene , which is called symbolum patrū , & athanasius creede more large thē that , and s. basils in words differing from them all . we vse it as the epitome of our profession , not as the perfect rule of faith , which title we appropriate to the written word onely , by which all mattere of faith are to be tried and squared , as the quadrant stones of salomons building 1. reg 6 ; and conclude with eusebius , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 either the leauing of this rule ; or abusing it with hosius , as a lesbian leaden rule , hath caused so many ruinous and deformed heapes , such heresies and schismes in the church of god. but now doubting to preuaile this way , he shewes how this rule is cut short by fiue inches . others deny some articles of their crede also ; for the protestantes denie three articles of our creede , and the puritans fiue . aunsweare . this diuision of protestantes and puritans , as it argueth the bitternesse of his malice ; so it maketh good that parable of our sauiour , that gods fielde wi●l haue both tares and wheate math. 13 ; that position of ours , the church militant hath her rebellious members , as the perfectest bodie noxious humours ; that speech of s. bernard , velis nolis habitabit intra fines tuos iebusoeus , the ●ebusite will dwell in the land , to be thornes in our sides , and prickes in our eies nomb. 33. yet this is our comfort , that we may truely say with s. ierome , ostendimus tales discipulos , non fecimus . but this slanderous challenge , of our denying some articles of the creede , reueales a conscience sea●ed with impudency , and a tongue set on fire with hell , as iames speaketh . what true protestantes deny hath hetherto and shall bee still maintained against the whole rout of pseudocatholikes : as for the puritans , if hee meane such as haue made either corah his separation from vs , in contempt of authoritie : or a pharisaicall secession in maiorem puritatis erenium , as bernard speaketh , in opinion of greater integritie ; saying in the spirite of pride , stand a part , for i am holier then thou , esa ▪ 65. iob his builders in desolate places iob 15. taking themselues to be the oracles of wisedome prou. 26. as if the word of god had come onely to them , or should proceede from them alone 1. cor. 14 such as the puritano-papist● , loyala his schollers , among them , the iesuites , yesterdaies vpstartes , who preferre themselues both for diuinitie and puritie , farre aboue all the romish clergie , regular & secular ; for these , i say , as the parents of the blinde man ioh. 9. aetatem habent , let them speake for themselues ; i meane not to be their aduocate yet as the poet said , improbé facit , qui in alieno libro ingeniosus est , it is a leaud part to miscontrue mens writings , a diuelish thing to belie them : but were it so ? i doubt not , but that wee haue as good authoritie to abridge the creede of some articles , as any of their sideto enlarge it with more ; which to be lawfull , not only their schoolemen dispute , and conclude that the pope , de iure , may doe it , but , de facto , they haue doone it , one of their popes , hauing framed a third article of transubstantiation annexuit symbolo saith alphōsus , hath foisted it into the creede . and now let vs see what articles we denie . 1 the first is the catholike church , credo ecclesiam sanctam catholicam , i beeleeue the holy catholike church , the which in verie deede they do not beeleeue . aunsweare which of the protestantes beleeue it not ? i am assured that we all professe there is a catholike church of christ , not a platonicall vtopia , no where extant , but a company of gods chosen euery where scattered ; not a cyclopicall anarchy , which the poet describes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; but as an absolute monarchy in respect of one head , christ ; so a policie aristocraticall administred by select gouernours : no pompous synagogue aspectable , in grosse , to mortall eies , because god onely knoweth all that are his , 2. tim. 2. for he is not a lew , which is one outward rom. 2. neither are all israell , which are of israell , rom. 9 ; not as noahs familie with a shem and a cham , or as his arke with a crow and a doue , ( though this bee true in visible particular churches , where are some straglers not yet called , some weakelinges not fully confirmed ; some hypocrites not easely discerned ; some wicked ones not to bee auoided ) but as clem. alex. defines it , au elect company into which are gathered the faithfull and iust , predestinate by god , beefore the worldes creation ; for this cause called an holy assembly , while millitant on earth , holy in affection ; when triumphant in heauen , holy in perfection ; in both states holy by christes imputation . this is the harmony of our profession , and the true sence of this article : which euen aquine their angelicall doctor con●●meth , concluding that infidels are not members of the catholike church , whereof christ is the head , in acte , but inpossibilitie ; no● so neither , except they be predestinate to life , before the worlds foundation : and all their catechistes insinuate so much , in making the catholike church , and the communion of saintes all one article : but heare his reason of our deniall . because catholike is vniuersall ( a profound note ) & so the church of christ which we are bound to beleeue , must bee vniuersall for all a time comprehending all ages , and b vniuersall for c place , comprehending all nations : but that church which the protestantes beleeue was interrupted , all the ages beetwixt the apostles and luther , which was 1400. yeares , or , in very deede was neuer seene before luthers dayes , therefore that church they beleeue cannot be catholike . aunsweare . a fit aunsweare to this , would cause the reader crie out , with that prouerb , date mihi peluim , this tedious iteration rather prouoking a vomit , then edging the appetite ; it being the full scope of his first article , where he receiued his aunsweare : therfore , since he requestes breuitie , heere onely obserue in this phrase ( interrupted ) either his blasphemous vntrueth , if he meane of the existence of the catholike church , which wee beleue to bee perpetuall ; for the head neuer wanted his bodie , nor the sunne his beames , nor the bridegroome his spouse , nor christ his church ; but , as irenaeus obserueth ab initio assistens plasmati suo filius , reuelat omnibus patrem ; it begunne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at the first foundation , and shall not ende 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at the finall dissolution of the worlde . the church beefore christ incarnate , and this since he was glorified , being one & the same cōsanguinitate doctrinae saith tertullian : or els his caiphas-like veritie , speaking the trueth against his will , if hee meane that the glorious conspicuitie , or sincere professiō of the catholike church was of long interrupted ; for that is true , in the olde testament by the worldes deluge the aegyptian bondage , the idole groues , and the babilonish captiuitie : in the new , at the aduent of christ by the worlds blindnesse , the phariseis pride , the iewes obstinacie , and the deuils malice ; after his ascent , by that threefold persecution , which s. augustine mentioneth , violent by tyrantes , fraudulent by hypocrites and heretikes , & both those together after the eleuation of antichrist . but if interrupted after christ and his apostles , then was it begun by him , and continued by them , and that is it which cyprian said , & we oft repeate , we neither seeke , nor reke what was doone ante nos before vs , but what he commands to be done , which was ante omnia , beefore all times , and aboue all men ; therfore that church which had the foūdation by christ , the source by the prophets and apostles , the frame and iointes by the scriptures , we beleeue in that article to bee continually catholike , alwayes extant , not alwayes radiant ; euery where dispersed , elsewhere distressed . pergit nebulo still he goes on . neither is it vniuersall in place beeing contayned within the narrow bounds of england , which is accompted but as a corner of the world . for the lutherans in germany , the hugonots in fra●nce , and the guiues in flaunders detest there religiō , almost , as much as the catholikes , neither will they ioine issue with thē in diuers especiall poīts . and therefore the protestants church which they beeleeue can no more bee catholike and vniuersall , thē england the vniuersall world ; or kēt the kingdom of england , or a pruned bough a wheate tree ; or a dead finger , a man ; or a rotten tooth , the whole head . aunsweare . medusaes ill fauoured countenance turned men into stones , and such brasen-faced ignorance , would make any man astonished . who euer said , ( except the romane proctors , for their babylon ) that a particular congregation was the catholike church ? we haue cried it at the crosse , and recorded it in our bookes , that as the golden candlesticke was multiplied into many braunches exod. 25 , and aarons rod burgened into many blossomes nomb. 17. so christes church was parceled into many particuler churches , among which , this of england to the fretting despight of romish rennagates , the famous renowne of our soueraigne , and the eternall glory of his name , god hath selected , as among all flowers , the lilly ; among all fowles the doue ; of all trees , the cedar ; of all the nations , iudea ; of all the mountaines , this zion , to be a sanctuarie for his chosen , an oracle for his woord , an habitation for himselfe : howsoeuer this viperous scorner in contempt calles it , a corner of the world ; a nooke it is in deede , but such an one as aegina to athens , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the eiesore thereof ; so is this to rome , the hartsoare thereof . why ? bethleem was the smallest among the thousands of i●dah , mich. 5. yet the sonne of righteousnes sprong thēce and the glorious starre directed thether , math. 2. the iewes an handfull in comparison of the other nations , and yet in iury was god knowne , his name was great in israell , psal. 76. a diamond of true lustre though set in brasse , is of more accompt & value , then a counterfaite byrall , or a portingall perle fastened in golde . wee feare not the lions paw , the spanish crueltie ; much lesse the scratch of a strumpet , the libellers of rome ; the braine of a fox , the schismes of hypocrites wee contemne . as for this visible church of ours , we acc●mpt it as the arke of gods presence , not beleeue it as an article of our faith ; it is the romish opinion , and it was well placed among the extrauagantes , as a position extrauagant from all learning , reason , and diuinitie , that a particular synagogue should be the catholike church , that a filthy sincke should be the holy church , yet such a citie is rome , and such is the diuinitie of the popish clergie ; and therefore wee conclude this article with a syllogisme inuerted vpon this libeller , being his owne . whosoeuer beleueth a particular church to be the catholike denyeth that article . but the papistes avow and beleeue rome to be the church . ergò the papistes denie that article . but that i promised , at his request , to aunswere seriously , i might play with him about his wheate tree , and aske him where he was borne ; and how corne growes ? i haue read in s. basil , that coales readie burnt , haue growne vpon trees , but that corne hath bulkt into a stemme , and branched out into armes ( non me pudet fateri nescire , quod nesciam ) i neuer heard or read : but let his folly passe , we will follow him to the second article denied , as hee saith , by vs. 2 the second article is the communion of saintes , the which they deny many waies : first by not beleeuing that christ hath instituted seuen sacraments , wherein the saintes of his church communicate . aunsweare . the protestantes denie that christ instituted seauen sacraments , ergó they denie the communion of saintes . the argument is denied , as beeing arena sine calce , an in●erence without any coherence , there beeing no semblable relation betweene fiue of those sacramentes , and this article of the c●eede . yet the anabaptistes reason more properly , who beecause we detest their platonicall communitie , as accompting meum & tuum to be more consonant to gods law , and all christian policie , do thereby inferre , that wee deny the communion of saintes . but to this purpose , for the article we beleue and confesse , that among the saintes on earth , though distant in place , or different in condition , or aliens by nation , there is an vnitie in religion , an vnanimitie in affection , a sympathie in affliction , a mutuall charitie for reliefe each of other , either comforting the mind if vexed , or supplying the wantes if distressed , or supporting the weakenesse if vnsetled , or reforming the ignorance if blinded , or praying for deliueraunce if oppressed ; falsifying that heathenish and vncharitable prouerbe , amici qui degunt procul non sunt amici : this is our faith , without breach whereof , notwithstanding , we denie seauen sacramentes to bee christes ordinaunce if he meane of them which denie al the seanen he should say somewhat , but not touch vs , who acknowledge two , which ratifie this article most , baptisme , an initiation or entrāce into this communion , and the lordes supper which by an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and speciall priuiledge is intituled by s. paule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the communion . but if the force of this argument lie in the septenarie nomber , as it seemeth , by the tridenrine anathema , it must , then all the auncient fathers , & some of their owne doctors , are as obnoxious to this imputation of denying this article , as we . the obiections by our men , out of iustine tertullian , and augustine in diuers places , are triuiall and stale , but especially out of ambrose , who of purpose writing a treatise of the sacramentes , ●eckons but two . isidore and gregory excede not three , as for the sacrament of matrimonie , grounded vpon an ignorant translation of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ephes. 5. canus citeth the infinite differences , and digladiations of the schoole doctors there about . & lombard , the first hammerer of this seuen folde shield , by a close consequent , denieth it to be a sacrament , because it conferreth not grace , as all sacraments must doe by their diuinitie . erasmus constantly affirmeth that in s. ieromes time , it was accompted no sacrament . durandus minceth it with an vnivocé and stricté , saying that it is a sacrament after the larger size , not properly . but alexander alensis , the ancientst schole man of credite , concludeth , that christ instituted but two sacramentes , which hee proueth both by christs side pierced , out of which issued water and bloud : and also by that triple testimonie agreeing in one , the spirit , water , and bloud ; reliqua per ministros ecclesiae ordinata , the rest were the inuentions , or additions of church gouernours . and petrus a soto cōfesseth that the elementes , woordes , and effectes of foure sacramentes , cannot be proued by the scripture , compendium theologiae is forced to say , that the element ( which in all sacraments is an externall substance and materiall ) is the action and humiliation of the partie penitent , and the woord adioyned to make it a full sacramente , is the priestes absolution . s. bernard puts in the maundie of christ for a sacrament , and so makes eight , others , and aboue the rest . dionys. areopag . leaues out matrimonie , and so finds but sixe . but will you see two foxes tied by the tailes , and their heades turned counter ? this hood winckt libeller saith , wee denie seauen , but duraeus the schottish champion for campian , findes that caluin , beza , and melancthon agree vpon the full nomber of seauen : both alike true , for we denie but fiue , hauing the authoritie , and precedent of 500. yeares but for two onely , and none of ours euer allowed of the whole seauen . and therefore i conclude this point , first , that if our denial of iust seauen , bee a blot to that article , wee are not the first , the fathers , after the scriptures , directing vs , and ●ounder schoole-men of their owne agreeing with vs. secondly , when he shall bring for those fiue pseudo-sacramentes , either the institution of christ , to authorize them , or any commaundement to vse them , or any promise of remission annexed to them , or any element by god appointed for them , we will with reuerence embrace them , but their greatest clarkes hauing failed heerein , wee may not expect it at the hands of this sneaking atomite . and seeme they neuer so zealous in defence of their sacramentes , & saintes communion , how basely they esteeme of them , one case in their cannon law will demonstrate , which i singled , as concerning this purpose fitly . it happeneth that one in iusting and torneament is cast , & his horse falling vpon him , bruiseth him mortally , it is permitted vnto him to communicate of the eucharist , to be annointed with oile , and to doe pennaunce , ( there are three sacramentes ) and yet after all this , hee must bee denied christian buriall . first note the absurditie , to preferre buriall aboue the chiefest sacrament : & then the vncharitablenesse , to forbid his bodie to sleepe among christians , who died in their sight a christian , which is a kind of deniall of this article , christian buriall bein some respect , a communion of saintes . and specially the true and reall presence of our sauiour christ in the eucharist , by which a all the faithfull members participating of one and the selfe-same body , are made one bodie , as all the partes of a mans bodie are made one liuing thing , by participating of one soule . aunsweare . to discourse of this double controuersy de modo essendi & edendi , of the manner of christes beeing , and our eating him in the sacramente , consideringe , how their schoolemen , leauing the simple trueth of gods word , haue verified that prouerbe , mendacij multiplex est diuortium ; and are at daggers drawing among thēselues , would aske more time , then i vouchsafe to spend in aunsweare of so base a pamphlet as this : the soundest and acutest of them , hauing descanted whether he be there , as quantum , or quantitas ; or if so , whether locally , or if so , whether circumscriptiuely , in the ende are driuen to say , that he is there secundum quendam modum huic sacramento proprium , qui est sacramentalis . indeede , if christes naturall bloud were as properly ours , as euery mans owne bloud is his own , some shew there were of this reall and carnall communion of which he speakes , but sithence his bloud , saith canus , is no otherwise ours , but as the light of the sunne is , by participation , as of those beams , so of his graces ; that as the 〈◊〉 , keeping his certaine tabernacle in the heauens . psal. 19. doth nourish and cherrish with his heate & brightnesse these inferiour & sublunary bodies , so christ sitting there , as hee must doe , till his comming in maiestie act. 3. 21. without locall motion , or carnall application , communicateth with his saintes , in that holy sacrament , the forcible power of his bodie & bloud , which worketh so mightily in faithfull hartes , that both it settleth the kingdome of god within thē , luc. 17. & lifteth them into heauenly places eph. 2 faith being that eagles eie , which , spying the pray a farre off , as iob speaketh , maketh the saintes resort thether , where the carcasse is , math. 24. and for the second , great difference there is , perchance , not obserued by many , betweene our eating of christ , and our vniting with him . wee are vnited vnto him vt viuenti , as our liuing head , & nos viuificanti and making vs his liuelie members . we eate him as our passeouer 2. cor. 5 ; that as the israelites , eate the one mortuum & assum , deade and roasted , exod. 12 , so wee him crucifixum & passum , dead and slaine , and so that speech of austen is true , that we haue him here in pabu , lo , as he was in patibulo torne and rent ; as himselfe ordained the sacra●ent in 〈◊〉 fracto not integro , the bread broken , not the whole loafe , therby signifying , yea saying , that in doing it wee must remember him not as liuing among vs , but as dying for vs ; vt in cruce , non in caelo , as hee was crucified , not as hee is glorified , whereby wee conclude , first , for his presence that his body is so farre foorth there quatenus editur , as it is eaten , but his bodie is eaten as dead and slaine , so himselfe appointed it , this is my bodie , and stayeth not there , but addes withall , which is giuen for you : and his bloud is droncke , not as remayning in his vaines , but as shed ; so himselfe speaketh , this is my bloud of the new testament shed for many . now his bodie bruised & his bloud poured out can no otherwise be present in the eucharist , but by a representation therof in the bread broken , & in the wine effused , of the one side ; and on the communicantes part , by a grateful recordation of the benefites , a reuerent valuation of the sacrifice , a faithfull application of his merites in his whole passion ; and therfore his presence must be sacramentall , and our eating spirituall , for , non quod videtur , séd quod creditur pascit , saith s. augustin . secondly for the vnion . it is true which christ saith that hee which eateth my flesh abideth in me and i in him . ioh. 6. 56. not that this vnion is first begun in the participation of that holy supper ( for none can truely eate the bodie of christ , vnlesse hee bee first vnited with him , and ingrafted into him , nec veré edit corpus christi , qui non est de corpore christi , saith s. august ) because prima vnio , saith aquinas , the first vnion betweene god and man , is begunne in baptisme by one spirite , into one bodie , as the apostle speaketh 1. cor 12. & continued by faith , hope , and charitie , all these the operation of the spirite . but if we truely eate the bodie , and drinke the bloud of christ , then by the power of the holy ghost , and faith cooperating , this vnion is strengthened , the vigour and effectes whereof , after a true participation , we shall feele in our selues more forcible and liuely . an vnion more stronge and neere , then that which he 〈◊〉 speakes of the bodie and soule : for the soule may be separated from the bodie , but the elect mēbers of christ cā neuer be disiointed from him ; and therefore the whole bodie of his church is sometimes called , by his owne name , not as the antiochians , christians , but christ , so ambrose reades that place gal. 5. qui sunt christi , they which are christs in the nominatiue plurall , not in the genitiue singular . briefly , for both i aske , is not christ as present in baptisme as in the eucharist , for in them both wee communicate with him , bredd a new in the one , fed a new in the other , and yet christes reall presence is not challenged for baptisme ? if they say , no , beecause of the eucharist it was said , this is my bodie and bloud , not so of baptisme ; i aunsweare , as much , if not more was spokē by the apostle , they which are baptized haue put on christ , put him on we cannot vnlesse hee bee present , and the putting him on , is euen the very same , which he els where calleth christs dwelling in vs. eph. 3 , namely , that in baptisme we are so transformed , as now not wee , but christ alone doth liue within vs , gal. 2. as neere an vnitie as may . and in trueth s. augustin is out of doubt , that in baptisme the true member of christ corporis & sanguinis domini particeps fit , is partaker of the bodie and bloud of the lord , and therfore no reason withstandes , but that he should be really present in both , or in neither . againe , is it wee , or they which denie the communion of saintes in this sacrament ? we , keeping christes institution , and commādement , participating it to all , which by s. paule his rule , haue first tried and examined themselues , and in both kindes , the bread & the cup : or they , which by their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as the apostle speaketh ; their priuate masse as they terme it , haue turned coenam in scenam , the supper into a spectacle , and this blessed sacrament into an heaue offering , feeding the peoples eyes with the priestes eleuation , and sole mastucation ? or , if once in a yeare they vouchsafe them the communion , they defalke on halfe , denying them the cup , which by lombards collection , out of s. ambrose , is to denie the redemption of the soule ; for the bodie , saith hee , was broken for the freedome of our bodies , and the bloud was shed , for the redeming of the soule , as it was prefigured in moses law . thus they maki●g their lai●ie but easter saintes , suffering them no other time to communicate with them , and thē also denying them that cōmunion which assures them to bee saintes , in bereauing them of the cuppe , to which that blessi●g was added , which was not to the bread , videlicet , shed for many in remissionem peecatorum for remission of sinnes , and so making them demi-saintes , are more guiltie of annihilating this article of the communion of saints then we , which exclude none , and giue the whole . but to conclude , if the real and carnall presence of christ , be the onely cause of the saintes vnion vnto him , and their communion among themselues , what then doth s. augustine meane when he saith , that , in receiuing of the sacramēt , some do eate panem domini , and other some panem dominum ? if it be bread , then it is not transubstantiated into his bodie ; if some do eate the bread of the lord , & other the bread the lord , what makes the difference ? if it be his bodie really , then is it alike to all ; for christes bodie cannot bee changed : if to some it be bread , and to others christ , the difference is in the receiuer , not in the sacrament : summarilie , in the holy supper , there is sacramentum , & res sacramenti , the first , the twoo elementes , the second , christ himselfe : they are tasted with the mouth , and chewed in the teeth ; this must haue , as basil calleth it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the mouth of the inward man , which is faith . the sacrament is receiued by some to life , by others to perdition ; but the thing it selfe , omni homini ad vitam , nulli ad mortem , saith s. austen . if therfore christ be there carnally present , then indefinitely , quicunque eius particeps fuerit , whosoeuer , good or bad , shall participate , eateth vndoubtedly his owne saluation , and so becomes one with christ , a consequent necessary , but most impious . seondly they deny the communion of the church militant & triumphant , by exclaming a against inuocatiō of saints ; by which holy exercise , those blessed saintes in heauen , and wee in earth communicate , wee by prayer glorifiing them , and they by b meditation obtayning our requests . aunsweare . this distinction of saintes into militant and triumphant we allow , that there is but one tribe and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of them both wee acknowlege eph. 3. we on earth sub pellibus , lying in campe vnder sold & pay , fighting as souldiers 2. tim. 2. the celestiall in rest and glory , hauing coronam repositam , impositam 2. tim. 4 , the crowne laid vp for thē , put vpon them , raigning as kinges , apo. 1. that communion with them wee maintaine , which the primitiue church allowed , both by imitation of their vertues , in our conuersation , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by celebration of their praises in panegyricall orations , by the example of the apostle heb. 11 ; in reuolution of their annuall memories , at solemne feastes authorized by the church . we detest the cainans , and eunomians , for contemning the saintes departed , accounting a liuing dog , better then a dead lion eccles. 9. with s. augustine , we honor them , charitate , non seruitute , hauing receiued prohibition to be seruants of mē 1. cor. 7 , with loue , not feare ; in admiration of their liues , not adoration of their images : nec templa sicut dijs , sed memorias vt hominibus dicamus , saith austen , we reare not temples vnto them as gods , but record their memories as of holy mē ; there being a difference betweene sepulchra aedificare math. 23 , & simal●chracolere , betwene dignifieng them as saints by celebration , & deifieng them as gods by inuocation : this comb●ning of heauen and earth together , by prayer to them , being rather a mutinous rebellion and conspiracy against god , then a mutuall communion or societie of saintes ; grounded vpon an heathenish superstition , the chiefe authors beeing plato and apuleius , who formed mediators doemonicall , and heroicall , both , those spiritual essences which they call doemones , and the soules departed , which they called heroes , ( as the popish clergie , angels and saintes ) continued by supposed aparitions of walking ghostes , and miracles wrought at martyrs monumentes ; and confirmed by some ambiguous irresolutions of a few fathers : for whether they procure vs any good , euen origen makes it a question , & thinkes it not to bee chartulae mysterium , a written veritie , but an vnknowne secrete ; and they which were that way , in such affections , most passionate , slaked their heat in this case , with a si , or a qnasi , as s. basil : with an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as nazianz. as i thinke & am perswaded : not resolued by the scholemen what their knowledge , or their power is , whether their knowledge be matutina or vespertina ; and whether they procure vs any , good either impetratiuè by mediation of their prayers , or interpretatiuè by valuation of their merits . no where , euen by the confessiō of eckius , authorized in scripture by any example or precept ; not in the old testament , because the people were to prone to idolatrie , as in the calfe was seene ; & the saints were thē in limbo , not glorified : not in the new , least the gentils couerted shold returne and worship men for gods , as the lycaonians did paul and barnabas act. 14. not in the writinges , or preachinges of the euangelists and apostles , least they might be suspected of arrogancy , as purueyors of their owne prayses , in proclayming themselus an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a future glory among mē , after their decease ; this saith eckius , although both duraeus will needes fetch it from the very crosse of christ , in this manner ; our sauiour , in his passion , cried out eli , eli , and the people thought hee had called for elias , ergo inuocation of saintes was vsed among the iewes . and this pamphletor , as you see , wil haue it an article of faith , which cānot be , whether we look vnto the matter of faith , which is the word , or the obiect of faith , which is christ. for nothing may bee an article of faith which is not squired by the rule of faith , the scripture : neither is prayer to be made vnto any , but on whome we beleeue , rom. 10. & no christian dare say that wee must beleeue in saintes . it was said of cesar , that in the renewing pompey his statues which were ruinated , he erected his owne : here it is contrary , for this glori●eng of the saintes , is the disparagement of the whole trinitie ; of god the father , beeing the principall obiect of our prayers by his owne precept psal. 50 , call vpon mee . by christes auaunt to sathan , math. 4 , eisoli , him only thou shalt serue ; by his soueraigntie of place beeing our king of olde , psal. 74. 12. nec benè cum socijs regna-manent , saith the poet. of the sonne , beeing the vnus mediator , the alone mediator betweene god and man 1. tim. 2. 5. the still suruiuing priest making intercession for vs heb. 7. 25 , without whome there is no accesse vnto the father ioh. 14. who onely , as ambrose saith , hath that double office of a mediatour , imperare vt deus , & visitare vt homo , as man compassionating our infirmities , heb. 2 , as god supplying our wants , as man dying for our sinnes , as god risen for our iustification rom. 4. as both god and man , sitting at the right hand , requesting for vs , rom. 8. 34. of the holy ghost , the life & breath of our praye●s , for we know not what to pray as wee ought , but the spirit it selfe maketh request for vs within vs , rom. 8. 26. so that the establishing of prayer to saintes were to subiect the spirite of god to the deuotion of men , for postulare minoris est , saith aquinas , it is the inferior his part to sue . wherefore the apostle concludeth , that the searcher of the hearts knoweth the meaning of the spirit , qui postulat prosanctis , vers . 27. for the saints not to the saints . briefly , whereas euerie prayer must be made in the name of christ ioh. 16. ( the sweetest in nomine we can sing ) and euerie praier not so made , non solùm non delet peccatum , sed fit ipsa peccatum saith s. austen , surely the prayer to saintes must needes be sinne , because we must not pray to them , per iesum christum for christs sake , for that were to make him inferiour to them : and that is no maruaile in rome , for in their canon of the masse , the greasie priest , requestes god the father , that hee would vouchsafe to heare his son christ ; as if his orizon were more preualent with god , then christes intercession . 3 they denie the communion of the church militant , & the soules b in purgatory , bereauing them of that christian charitie , which charitable compassion , and mercifull pittie requireth , and by mutuall affection the members of one bodie helpe one another . aunsweare . it must needes prooue syncere religion , which frames diuinitie of poetrie , and fetcheth virgils aeneids into the apostles creede , & maketh the popes kitchē-stuffe ( the furnace & fuell of purgatorie ) an article of faith : but heerein is that speech of tertullian properly instified , that philosophers are the patriarkes of heretickes . this fancie of purgatorie being imagined , first in the dreame of homer , plato , and virgill , vpon a foolish pittie ( which this melting boweld traytor ) calleth charitable compassion ) that those , who died in their sins which wer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 venial & curable , though they were not woorthy to flie to heauen immediately , yet not so cruelly to bee censured , as to be throwne downe into ta●arus , or hell : the iudge who ballaunced the weight of the painims sinnes was in . exorable radamanthus , but of the catholike ghostes , the indulgent pope . among the christians , the principall founders thereof , either clem. alexand. who was so enamored of philosophy , that hee concluded , the grecians might be thereby saued : or his scholler origen , of whome it is no maruell , he should thinke the soules departed might bee freed from torment , sithens hee also helde , that euen the damned spirites , and lucifer himselfe should in the ende bee saued . the scriptures for this place , by their owne confession , none or obscure ; the fathers in this pointe to themselues contradictorie ; the greatest patrones among themselues vnresolued ; first , of the place , whether in the aire , or vnder the earth , or the brim of hell ; secondly , for the scite , whether extensiue as a couer ouer hell , in latitude ; or collaterall with hell , seuered by a partition , in longitude ; or circular about hell , in seuerall celles , as the spottes of an apple about the quore : thirdly , for the nature of the place to some it shall not be fire , but tanquam ignis , as it were fire , as out of s. paul they collect : to other it shall bee both fire and water , as out of the psalmes they inferre ; to other it shall bee a lake and no water , as they cite zachary to that purpose . fourthly , for the parties tormented , the most wil haue them a middle sorte betweene saintes and sinners ; this fellow , as it seemes , accomptes them saintes , els why brings hee thē within compasse of this article ? therefore we , refusing to build vpon sand , leaue them to their vnletled coniectures , & out of the scriptures acknowledge no purgatorie but one , the bloud of iesus christ purging vs from all our sinnes : wherein the garments of the saintes are washed white . apoc. 7. no other clensing but that which aquinas mētioneth , velper gratiam a culpa , vel per lumen doctrinae a nescíentia ; either frō the guilt of sinnes by his grace , or the drosse of ignorance by his word . for which he hath appointed a double fire ; for doctrine , the fire of the spirite , 1. cor. 3. to trie timber from stubble , pearles from strawes : for the other , that which peter calleth the fierie triall , videlicet , the afflictions of this life , which are as fire to golde , as the flaile to corne , saith gregorie . but two sortes of vessels , of wrath and sauour , either for honour or contumelie , rom. 9. sheepe or goates for the right or left hande . a double state of saintes , which s. paul resembleth to a gargarment , in this world 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the vesture of this flesh in the other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , their inuestiture with immortalitie ; either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a peregrination from god here , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a presence with him in heauē . for both which there is allotted a seueral burden , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gal. 6. in this life , that which s. austen calleth onus mutuae charitatis , mutuall affection and compassion in supporting each other vers 2. in the next life , onus reddendae rationis , the render of accompt , which euery one must beare himselfe vers . 5. but two places of resort , abrahams bosome , & the lake of brimstone ; two wayes thereunto , the one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a straightened path , hardly passable , the other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a broadway , a roadway with trauailers innumerable , math. 7. two rewardes in the ende , the crowne of righteousnesse , eternall life . 2. tim. 4. the wages of sinne , euerlasting death , rom. 6. which s. austen calleth ignem aeternum and regnum aeternum . cyprian refrigerium iusti , supplicium iniusti ; the atchieuement of both in this life , in the other neither remission , nor redemption saith austen , this beeing the time of working that of reward , saith nazianz , this of striuing , that of crowning saith chrisostome . the 3. article is remission of sinnes , for they acknowledg no such effect in the sacrament of baptisme , but onely accoumpt it as externall signe of a praereceiued grace of fauour of god , by his eternall predestination , against the expres word of god : which therfore calleth the sacrament the a lauer of regeneration , for that in it the soule deade by sinne , is newly regenerated by grace . aunsweare . this fellow purposed from the beginning asellius his profession , which p. africanus said was malitia and nequitia , to bee not onely a libeller , but a liar ; that argues his mind to bee malitious , this bewrayes his cause to be bad , both make him shame lesse , and all spring from ignorance , either making report his ground , or partiall reading his best intelligence , neglecting our writers , and cleauing onely to his owne side , whose fashion it is to fasten opinions vppon vs , neither conceiued by vs , nor receiued among vs. the concent of our church is , that baptisme is the indument of christ , gal. 3. an insition into christ , rom. 6. as the arke of noe , in the deluge , to saue vs. 1. pet. 3. the lauer of regeneration to wash vs , tit. 3. working a double effect , priuatiuely remissa culpa in washing vs ; positiuely data iustitia in sanctifieng vs. 1. cor. 6. 11. whether wee vse it as the water of iordan by immersion , math. 3. or as the holy water in the law by aspersiō nōb. 19. not regarding the heathenish distinctiō , betwene diuing & sprinckling in macro . & therefore with clem. alexand. we account it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the soueraigne counterpoison against originall venim ; with nazianz. the deluge of sinne ; with basil , the mother of adoption ; with chrysostome , the purgatorie of life . ezechiel his aqua munda , cleansing vs from all our pollutions , ezech. 36. notwithstāding , we ascribe not this power either ad clementum , or momentum , not to the element of water , as though it had vim ablutiuam , as aquine speaketh , this skouring force ; or regeneratiuam this renewing power , as lombard termes it ; but vnto the bloud of christ working inuisibly by the power of the spirite , tit. 3. non enim aqua lauat animam , sed ipsa prius lauatur a spiritu , vt lauare possit spiritualiter , saith ierome . hereupon the fathers resemble it to the diuing poole of bethesda , ioh. 5. as that being moued by the angell , had an healing power : so this cōsecrated by the word and sanctified by the spirite , hath a soueraigne effect and operation ; and for that purpose , somtimes they call the water , in baptisme , rubram aquam red water , the bloud of christ , hauing ther his inuisible working . why ? but the protestants accoumpt it onely an externall seale of a prereceiued grace in gods predestination : hee names none , yet campian , whose ape hee is , quoates caluin , but cites him not ; duraeus cites him , but vnderstandes him not ; that word onely is not the first he hee hath coyned ; the father of lies , as the fathers obserue in math 4. hauing taught them all a to adde or defalke from a text to serue their turne . the first fruit , which master caluin , among three principall effectes , noteth in this sacrament is , that it is symbolum nostrae purgationis , the very wordes of the greeke scholiast . in 1. pet. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yea of pighius a grosse papist , baptsmus a peccatis ablutionis signum est . & instar signati diplomatis saith caluin , and as the kinges ●etters pattents vnder seale confirmeth our commission : that as a prince , hauing purposed a fauour to his subiectes , graunts it by his patentes of meere indulgence , and ratifies it by his seale for more assurance ; so god , hauing purposed in his eternall counsell to saue some , which hee cannot doe before hee haue remitted their sinnes , therefore in baptisme he both conferres this grace , & confirmes it vnto them ; for which cause the scriptures and fathers do call it sigillum promissionis & remissionis ; conferres it , i say , as campian confesseth it , veluti per canalem , deriuatiuely , not originally ; effectually , not effectiuely ; as by a brooke not as from a spring ; for this is christes bloud , quia latus christi est latex sacramenti saith s. austen : as allen the cardinall speaketh , grace is wrought in baptisme as a man writeth with a penne , powerfully , yet instrumentally ▪ confirmes it visibly , se●ling that which concealed ; so , that which was in his secrete counsell , propositum , the purpose of his will by predestination , in baptisme hee makes it depositum , the pledge of our saluation , and onely to the elect , for in solis electis sacramenta efficiunt quod figurant saith s. augustine , in the elect onely , the sacraments performe really , which they present figuratiuely : and therefore that is no heresie nor fancie to call it the seale of a praereceiued grace . for iustificatiō by faith , which oftentimes , in those which are adulti , preuents baptisme , is a praeaccepted grace , and cannot stand without a perfect remission of their sinnes which are so iustifyed . what fruite then bringes baptisme to them ? euē this saith lombard , beecause hee who thus iustified commeth to baptisme , is as the branch brought by the doue in to noe his arke , gen. 8. qui ante intus erat iudicio dei sed nunc etiam iudicio ecclesiae , who beefore was iustified , & fully remitted in gods secrete iudgement , but now by baptisme is made a visible member of the church , the ●acrament being the euidence of gods prouidence and this was cornelius his case act. 10. also a we vrge the necessitie of baptisme , especially to infantes , least they should seeme either naturally innocent , or generally sanctified without it ; yet not simply , but with a reseruation , first , of gods omnipotencie , who beeing agens liberrimum , as the schoolemen speake , hath not tied his power to the sacraments , saith lombard ; secondly , of preeminence to christes baptisme , wherein , not hee , but we were washed , the waters drenching him , but cleansing vs : which made s. augustine to crie out omisericordia , ô the mercie , and withall , the power of god , nec dum eramus in mūdo , et iam abluebamur in baptismo . thirdly , with a dispensation of that which the scholemen call articulum necessitatis , there beeing no contempt of religion , but either extremitie disappointing ; or death suddenly preuenting , as infantes , and the theefe crucified luc. 23. fourthly , with a distinction of baptismus voti , when there 〈…〉 in the parties , but no oportunitie for the action , volentes non valentes saith lombard , as in the case of valentinian in s. ambrose : briefly , we so highly extoll the dignitie , necessitie , and efficacie of baptisme , that duraeus pleaseth himselfe triumphantly , in hope that some of our writers are prooued , in this opinion , romanistes , sauing , hee misliketh our detestation of that magicall conceite of opus operatum , videlicet , that the very act of baptisme , without either the parties faith , or the spirites power , should confime grace of it selfe . to conclude , whether wee or they acknowledge more power and effic●cie in this sacramēt , let the world iudge : wee , with the apostle ascribe the effectes of grace , of cleansing , of remission , of sanctification vnto this holy baptisme . 1. cor. 6. 11. euen as it was instituted by our sauiour , without any slibber-sauced ceremonies ; or they , who , as if it were not of it selfe effectuall inough , adde exorcismes , and exufflations , and lights , and oile , and spittle , and durt , with which neither the riuer iordan , nor the 〈…〉 , and infantes were euer consorted or acquainted . and now from ablution , hee comes to absolution . moreouer , they allow not the sacrament of penance , wherein all actuall a sinns , committed after baptisme are cancelled . answeare . the apostle willing vs to offer vp our bodies sacrifices , we vse pennance or repentance , as the priestes sacrificing kniues , to mortifie our earthly members . colos. 3. to kill those beastlike passions and affections which rage within vs : applying it as an wholesome chastisement , not vsing it as an holy sacrament , it hauing neither visible signe , nor diuine institution . the trentish conuenticle confesseth , that it was no sacrament in the olde testamente , whereby we inferre that it is no sacrament at all ; for peter act. 10 , and paul act. 26 professe , that they preach no other doctrine of repentance , then that which the fathers and rophets beefore had taught . neither was it , ●ay the trentistes , a sacrament before christes resurrection , but after it was : then first , the repētance which iohn baptist preached , math. 3. and our sauiour published , math. 4. ( both which places the rhemistes haue translated doe pennance ) was no sacrament . secondly , it crosseth an other assertion of their owne , when they say that pennance is no sacramēt beefore baptisme ; put the case in those which beeing conuerted , and hauing repented vpon peter his sermon act. 2. were after baptized , which was after christ was risen and ascended ; by the first opinion then it was a sacrament ; it was beefore their baptisme , by their second rule then it was no sacrament . lastly by this concession of theirs , all the examples , and testimonies , which they inforce for satisfaction our of the olde testament , either of miriam dauid , or manasses are friuolous and superfluous . and therefore the glosse of their canon law concludes , it is better to say , that it was rather an vniuersall tradition of the church , then any scripture institution : and one of their great schoolemen is peremptorie , that the agnizing of the fault & desert of punishment , together with the recognizing of gods mercie and fauour , causeth remission of the sinne , as for confessiō and satisfaction , it is the church imposition . trueth it is , loth they are to giue too much to gods grace , therefore , because in baptisme wee receiue remission of our sins freely , without our worke concurring , they haue inuēted for falles after baptisme pennance , wherein temporarie satisfactiōs shal be meritorious . as for vs , we confesse ingenuously , that , by reason both of that originall taint , which cyprian calleth virus paternum , adams guilt : & our naturall corruption , which dauid calleth virus maternum , our mothers conception . psal. 51. and the reliques thereof , which s. paul clepeth the law of the emembers , rom. 7. ●eueling in our bodies , & rebelling against the spirite , till it haue gotten from peccatum babitans to peccatum regnans , ro● . 6. as s. iames saith , in many thinges , wee euery one offend , euen the iustest man , seauen times a day . prou. 24. the treacheries of the deuill , the lustes of theflesh , the allu rements of the world , working vppon that corrupt inclination , sometimes praeoccupate vs , with slips of ignorance , through infirmitie ; oft-times th●ough malice precipitate vs into hainous enormities , euen those which the schoolemen call vastantia conscientiam , which without repentance & faith , cannot be remitted . and therefore we detest the anabaptistes , who establish a perfection after baptisme , more absolute then adams was in his integritie . for as augustine noteth , his was posse non peccare , a libertie , if hee would , not to sinne : but they will haue it coelestiall , non posse peccare , to haue no possibilitie to sinne , this is pharisaicall arrogancie : much more the nouatians , who denie to those that relapse after baptisme , any hope of remissiō frō god , or intromission into the church ; this is the gulfe of dispaire . and to them we 〈◊〉 the enthusiastes , who thinke god will be reconciled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without mediatiō by prayer , or ministerie of the word , or assuraunce of faith , or sorrow by repentance , this is epicurish securitie : but in defiance of them all , we preach with s. augustine , repentance to be arra pacis , the earnest of our peace with god ; with s. basil , that it is the physicke of the soule ; and as in phisicke there are three partes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 surgerie by incision , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by purgation ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by diet ; so herein , first , contrition , which is the phlebotomie , yea the cutting of the very hart-stringes . act. 2. which dauid calleth the acceptable sacrifice . ps. 51. secōd confession , as the vomit casting out before god and men , to our confusion , and their example , the filthinesse of our sinnes : as the scolopendra turneth her entrailes outward to scoure them ; pleading , as gregorie speaketh , nostras causas apud deum , & . causam domini aduersus nos , acknowledging our sinnes against our selues psal. 32. with shame of countenance , with remorse of conscience : priuately , if we be burdened ; publikely , if we be inioyned . thirdly , fasting and weeping , ioel. 2. which is the diet to keepe the bodie vnder , and tame it by subiection 1. cor. 9. not onely as a preuention of sinne , but as a punishment for sinne . psal. 69. 1● . which repentaunce , or penaunce , notwithstanding , wee doe not say with the pseudocatholikes to bee a second plancke to saue vs , a new meanes of our remission , eleuating thereby , or annihilating the vigour and force of baptisme , the effect whereof , i said beefore , wee tied not a ad momentum to the very instant of the celebration , as if any sinne after ensuing might abolishit ; for , that were too much to weaken the efficacie of so mightie a sacrament , and to repeale too sodeinely the force of so strong a couenant , and to deiect most basely the authoritie of so great a seale , especially the holy ghost hauing called it , an aeternall mercie , an vnmoueable league , esa. 54. and as a continuall current for all times : saluos fecit , for the time past , he hath saued vs by the l●uer , t it 3. saluos facit , it doth saue vs for the present state , 1. pet. 3. and for the time to come , he that beleeueth and is baptized saluabitur shall bee saued . mar. 16. and that which passeth all in absurdity , is to denie that our sinnes are perfectly forgiuen , but onely not imputed , and as it were veyled or couered with the passion of christ , all the botches and biles , the filth and abomination of sinne still remaining , and as it were exhaling a most pestiferous sent in the sight of god. aunsweare . dauid seemes mad , but to whome ? saith austen , regi achis , id est , stultis & ignorantibus , to king achis , that is , to fooles & rudesbies : so to pharisaicall catholiques destroying grace , to reare vp merites , the diuinitie both of the greatest prophet , and the chiefest apostle will seme absurditie . to the point , blessed he cannot bee , which is not fully remitted , but dauid pronounceth him blessed , to whome sinne is not imputed psal. 32. christes righteousnesse imputed is the perfect remission of sinnes , saith ambrose in rom. 8. for our iustification is nothing els , but our sinnes remission saith oecumenius : because whome he hath called , them he hath iustified , scilicet , remissionepeccatorū , as the glosse expoundes that place , to which agreeth gorram . in rom. 4. and pighius often in his controuersie de fide & iustificatione . but where christes righteousnesse is imputed , there is true iustification , which cannot bee perfect , without full remission saith paul. roman . 3. wherefore in saying , that wee denie a perfect remission , is to deceiue the reader , and to abusevs : and to accompt this doctrine , that the not imputing of sinnes , is a perfect forgiuenesse , as an absurditie , is the disgrace of the scriptures , not of vs , which are so taught by the scriptures . sinnes are debtes math. 18. the creditor beeing satisfied , the bond is cancelled , the debt remitted . god is reconciled to vs by his sonne , the price of whose bloud hath satisfied him i. pet. 1. the vertue thereof hath washed vs , apocal. 1. the hand-writing is fastened to the crosse , colos. 2. the sinne forgiuen vnto vs : yet stil we remaine debters , otherwise wee neede not dailie pray , forgiue vs our debtes mat. 6. therefore they are remitted , because not exacted extreamely , not beecause they are taken away radically , for dauid did not pronounce him blessed saith s. augustine , in quo non inuenta &c. in whome sinne was not found at all , but to whome god impuleth not sinne . who hath had what hee could require , death for the transgression of the precept gen. 3. our sauiour hath suffered it . phil. ● . a curse for the breach of the law , he hath borne it , gal. 3. the hugenes of our sinnes cannot prouoke him , the price hath sufficed him ; the lothsomnes cannot offend him , his bloud hath purged them . no doubt the corruption thereof exhaleth , as hee speaketh , of themselues , a noysome sauour and stench , which dauid confesseth , psal. 38 , yet the sonne of righteousnesse hath dispersed the fogge , that it cannot ascend to his father , and the sweet smelling sauour of his sacrifice , ephes. 5. hath taken away the sent thereof , that it cānot annoy him . and this is that which dauid calleth the couering of our sinnes . psal. 32. vpon which both s. augustine diuinely descanteth , if hee haue couered them , noluit aduertere , hee would not marke , them ; if hee would not note thē , noluit animaduertere , he would not straightly examine them ; if not sift them narrowly , noluir punire , hee would not punish them ; noluit agnoscere , maluit ignoscere , he would not acknowledge them , he had rather forgiue them : and one of their owne , flaminius in his paraphrase vppon the psalmes dedicated to cardinall farnesius , excellētly saith . blessed are they whose vnrighteousnes is forgiuen ; it is woorth the notíng saith he , how the prophet pronounceth them blessed , not which are free from sinne , & cleane without all spot , for there is none such liuing , but them to whome gods mercy forgiueth sinnes , and them it forgiueth who cōfesse and beleeue that the bloud of christ is the perfect expiation for their sinnes and offences . who is it then which can lay any thing to the charge of gods chosen , & accuse them , saith paule ? if none can conuince them , they are perfectly iustifyed , if so , then fully remitted , so it is , saith the apostle , it is god that iustifieth . how ? one of their owne doctors shall expound it , in forbearing the punishment , beecause hee hath said nolo mortem peccatoris , a sinner hee is , but i will not that he shal die . and that which the schoolemen say , that , formale peccati is abolished , but the materiale remaineth , is nothing els , but that which we say , the guilt is remooued , because god is pacified in his beloued , yet the reliques of sinne still remaine and dwell within vs , euen being regenerate , rom. 7. for if we say we haue no sinne , we deceiue our selues , but if we confesse thē , hee is faithfull and iust to forgiue thē , i. ioh. 1. now in their opiniō , how are sinnes forgiuen ? by charitie infused , which expelleth sin , as the light doth darkenes . this is the bountie of gods larges , no remissiō of the trespasse ; for , thogh a creditor giue his debtor a stocke to set him vp , this new donation cuts not off the former arrerages , which when he pleaseth he may exact : so that by this doctrine , not the almightie recōciled , but mā qualified ; not christ patient , but a qualitie inherent ; not god by grace pardōing , but an instilled vertue expelling sinne , is the cause of remission ; which s. hilarie manifestly crosseth , in saying , that the forgiuenesse of sinnes is not probitatis meritum , any desert of qualitie within vs , but it consisteth in miserendo , & miserando , in the free indulgence of gods affection , compassionating our condition ; and exuberans bonitas , the ouerflowing of his grace abounding to the act of remission ; which in iustine martyr his glosse in psal. 32. is the not imputing of sinne , blessed , saith the prophet , is ●hee to whome the lord imputeth not sinne , that is , saith iustine , to whome , repenting , god doth forgiue his sinne . which not imputing , how meanely soeuer they esteeme thereof , yet origen makes the highest step of forgiuenesse : the first being dimissio peccati , god not obseruing our sin , but passing by it , as not regarding it ; the second tectio , the couering thereof by his grace ; the third and highest , non imputatio , the not imputing them . so that the perfect remission of sinnes by dauid his gradation , and origen his glosse , is onely the not imputing of sinne . by which assertion neither these fathers , nor wee , doe any way attenuate the burden of sinne , as beeing thus easely remitted , nor bolster it out , as presuming of this indulgent fauour : and therefore his flaunt of vanity , which followeth , might well haue beene spared , especially since he laboureth to be an epitomist . for let them shift themselues as they list , and scarfe their soares according to their fancies ; yet no veile nor mantle can couer the deformity of sinne from the piercing eies of gods perfect vnderstanding , from which nothing can be concealed . aunsweare . — bullatis vt mihi nugis pagina turgescit ? saith the poet : these are the trappinges of balaams beast , a vaine rhetoricall flourish , the displayed streamer of a dastard spirite , either distrusting his cause , for which hee hath entred the field ; or the weakenesse of his argumentes , wherewith hee should maintaine it . his conscience knoweth it , because our writinges declare , & our preachinges declame , that with abacuck wee confesse , that as gods eies are pure , not induring to see euill , or to behold iniquitie ; so they are piercing , searching the very hart and reines : that he detesteth a sinner cane peius & angue , worse then a serpent , for vnto the dragons he said , praise the lord ye serpents , psal. 148 , but vnto the sinner he saith , why doest thou preach my law , and takest my couenant in thy mouth ? that the filthy leprosie of our sinnes , make him loath vs , and vs also loth to looke vp to him , facies peccatorum , as dauid calles it , psal. 38 , beeing so medusalike horribly deformed , that , in beholding therof , it both strikes a terrour into our conscience , and a shame ouer our countenance , confessing with daniel , that in respect thereof , there beelongeth to vs nothing but confusion of face . wee scarifie them , we scarfe them not , we wish mē to discusse them , not to excuse them , with bernard , wee will them to lay open their sinnes , as lazarus his soares , to mooue the more compassion . we say , with ieremy , it is the lordes mercies that wee are not all consumed , lam. 3. for if hee shoulde marke extremely what were done amisse , none could stand , psal. 130. so farre we are frō iustifieng our selues , that we say with the prophet esa. 64. that all our righteousnesse is as a menstruous cloth ; with s. augustine , vae iustitiae nostrae , si rēmota iustitia iudicetur . they are the mē who haue made scarfes , and veiles , and rebaters for sinnes , in saying that concupiscence , ( which the apostle plainely tearmeth sinne , rom. 7. which beeing the diuels concubine , is the damme of all actuall sinnes iac. 1. ) either to be no sinne , but only fomes , the allumettes , or sulphurated fuell , by which sinne is easely kindled ; or to bee sinne abusiuely , as christ is called sinne , 2. cor. 5. or metonymically , either because it accrueth of sinne , or prouoketh vs to sinne . secondly , in denying the workes of infidels , and vnregenerate persons , to bee sinnes , crossing the apostle , concluding euery action without faith to bee sinne , rom. 14. and s. austen who saith , quicquid in te est sine christo satan est . thirdly in coyning a distinction of veniall and mortall sinnes , contradicted by s. paul , who awardeth death for sinne , as the proper reward , rom. 6. and by nazian-who elegantly saith , that euery sinne is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the life of death , and the death of the soule : fourthly , in applying such facile lenatiues , & remedies for sinnes , as the sprinckling of holy water ; the largesse of a rich almner ; the indulgence of a bribed pope ; at the most , the lash of a whip in penaunce , or the flash of the fire in purgatorie , these are the scarfes , and plasters inuented by them for sinnes ; of which more heereafter in the second part concerning manners . and now from the sinnes of man , we must follow him to the sonne of god. 4 the puritans in effect denie that christ is the sonne of god ; for they peremptorily affirme , that christ is god him selfe and not god of god. so that hee receiued not his diuinitie from his father . the which position flatly taketh away the nature of a son , for the nature of a sonne is to receiue his substance of his father , and it implyeth contradiction : that the sonne receiueth his person of his father , and not his substance and essence , for the substance of god is essentiall to euerie person in trinity . aunsweare . it is well obserued by aelianus , that prei●dice neither heareth nor seeth any thing acurately , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , wherevpon it commeth to passe , that it oft times iudgeth amisse : this obiection he hath receiued by tradition from their owne , not reading our writers : yet had hee read bellarmine & not trusted too much to campians credite , this section might haue bene cut off : for bellarmine thinkes that master caluin ( whom this pamphleter woūdeth through the puritans sides ) is wrongfully challenged in this point , by genebrard : and that when the worst is made of it , it will prooue but a brandishing of wordes , no controuersy of substance , saith the iesuite elswhere . so farre then from being an heresie , which , ierome saith , is in sensu , non in verbis , in the meaning not in the wordes : that it is not to be accompted a fault , for sensus , non sermo fit crimen , in hilary his iudgement , the sence , not the speech makes a crime . and yet euen the woords , to a sound and charitable diuine , are no way faultie , videlicet , that christ is deus de deo , deus ex sese , god of god , god of himselfe , which seemeth , say they , to implay a contradiction , for him to be god of himselfe , which is god of god. ( not to discours of this point in this short abstract of aunsweare ) basil reconciles them , he is god of god , as he is the sonne , he is god of himself , as he is an essence . for the sonne , saith hee , was begotten 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not as hee is a substance , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but so farre foorth as he is a sonne , that is , as s. austen speaketh , secundum relatiuum , relatiuely as the one is the father , the other the sonne . because essentia non est illud quod generat , saith i ombard , it is not the essence which begetteth . neither must we beleue , quoth his epitomist spinaeus , quòd pater genuit diuinam esētiam , that the father begat the diuine essence : which is also s : bernard his opiniō , quòd alter ex altero , & alter ad alterum est , & veracissimè dicitur , this relatiō , that one is of the other , personarum designatio est , non vnitatis diuisio , is the designemēt of the persons , not the distracting of the vnitie ; and this is caluin his drift against gētilis , in saying that christ was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 god of him selfe : beecause that blasphemer his opinion was , that the father was essentiator filij , and the sonne essentiatus : that the deitie of christ was but a portion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as a cantell cut out of gods essence , by a dependance , and leaue , not originally : so that his meaning is , as bellarmine confesseth , that christ as god , borrowed not his essence from the father , but communicated from all eternitie of the same essence with him , there being as cyril speaketh , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the same identitie of substāce in al the three persons ; else were not christ god equall with his father : and so should commit a robbery in making himselfe so , phi. 2. for whatsoeuer incipit esse ex aliquo , or per aliquod , is not idem illi , the same with it , by which & of which it hath his being , saith anselmus . therefore austen concludeth , that hee is called the sonne respectiuely to his father , but deus ad seipsum , correspondent to that of cyrill , that the father and sonne respecting the substance , are vnum principium , for that he , which was in the beginning with god , was god , ioh. 1. 1. so that , those speaches of the fathers , of ignatius , that the essence of the sonne is genita , begotten : of denis , that in the father is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the fountaine of the deitie : of hilarie , that the son hath nothing nisi natum , but to be borne ; of augustine , that the father hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , his essence of himselfe , the sonne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , his essence frō another : these ( i say ) are to bee vnderstood hypostatically , in regard of the persons , not essentially , which is caluins opinion & no errour , from which bellarmine rids him by this distinctiō . in which positiō if ther be either arrianisme , as genebrard wil haue it ; or puritanism , as this mate scornes it ; or mahumetisme , as duraeus will inferre it ; or manicheisme , to which canisius referres it , then euen genebrard himselfe is that way guiltie , who oft so distinguisheth ; then was pope innocentius a puritane , who definitiuely concludeth , for lombard against ioachimus the abbat , with authoritie and consent of the councell of lateran , wee belieue and confesse that there is vna quaedam res , one certaine thing incomprehensible and ineffable , which truely is the father , sonne ; and holy ghost , and euerie of these three persons is illa res , that thing , viz. the substance , essence , and nature diuine : and illa res , that thing is neither generans , nec genita , neque procedens , neither ingendreth , nor is begotten , nor doth proceed : but it is the father which begetteth , the sonne is begotten , & the holy ghost proceedeth , that so distinctio sit in personis , vnitas in natura , there may be a distinction of the persons , but an vnitie in essence : thē is bellarmine a puritan , for he alleadging simlerus his confession , non negamus filium habere essentiam à deo patre , sed essentiam genitam negamus , wee denie not the sonne to haue his essence of the father , but we deny that the essence is begotten ( the very opinion for which the puritans are challenged ) seeth no reason , cur haec sententia catholica dicenda non sit , why this position should not bee catholike and orthodoxall . then is epiphanius a catharist , who calleth christ , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , perfect of himselfe , god of himselfe . and origen also , who calleth him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 life of himselfe : which is all one , for idem est deo esse & viuere , say the schoolemen , it is all one in god , to be & to liue . briefly , the mystery is intricate , in quo humanum laborat ingenium , saith s. augustine , intangling the wit , & exceeding the speech of any man : this obiection no controuersie , but a slaunder , long since vnaunswearably rebutted by vs into their teeth , sauing that , with the poet , their malice so either delighteth or deceiueth them , that they had rather continue a cauill vainely , & contumeliously , quàm sapere & ring● — and now from heauen , like lncifer , hee glides to hell . 5 finally , they denie the d●scention of christ into hell , and desperately defend , that he suffered the paines of hell vpon the crosse , whereby they blaspheme most horribly that sacred humanitie : as if christ had despaired of his saluation , as if god had hated him , and hee had hated god ; as if he had beene afflicted and tormented with anguish of mind for his offences , for which hee was depriued of the sight of god , and eternally to bee depriued : all which horrible punishmentes are included in the paines of hell , and whosoeuer ascribeth them to christ , blasphemeth more horribly then arrius , who denyed him to bee god : for lesse absurditie were it to deny him to bee god , then to make god , the enemy of god. aunsweare . what puritans denie or affirme , the church of england , whome this libell principally attainteth , meaneth not to defend , which , to cut off all factions in opinions about religion , hath ioyntly concluded the whole summe of her profession within the compasse of forty articles , the third whereof is this , as christ died for vs , & was buried , so , withall , it is to be beleeued that he went downe into hell : which it inioyneth vs to beleeue , not so much beecause it is an article in the apostles symbole , so called , ( for it is notorious that this article was not admitted into the creede 300 yeares after christ , neither by the east nor west churches : omitted also in the nicene creede ; nor any where extant , as aquinas confesseth , in symbolo patrum , in the articles which the auncient fathers doe recompt ) but as being grounded vpon manifest scripture psal. 16. and act. 2. the exposition thereof not onely in moderne times , but euen presently after the admitting thereof , diuers and different ; euery part of the proposition , hauing a diuerse acceptation in the scriptures . for the proposition beeing this , christ descended into hell ; the subiect , christ , is sometimes put for his person ; sometimes for the efficacy of his death : his person somwhere for his diuine , elswhere for his humane nature ; his humanitie in some places , for his body onely ; in other for his soule alone ; and sometimes , for both his person and his office . the copula , descended , signifieth either a locall motion , from a higher to a lower place : or some more speciall pre●ence , and effectuall power , shewed more in one place then another ; as god , saying in genesis , that he wil go downe : and the holy ghost descending in the baptisme of christ , math. 3. the praedicate , inferos hell , either the graue ; or the place of the damned ; or the miserablest state , which may befall a man , either by imminēt perils pursuing him , which was dauids hell psal. 18. or anxietie of mind tormenting him , which was annaes he●l 1. sam. 2. 6. or both ioyned together which was ionas hell , in his bodie distressed , being deuouted of a whale , in the deepe sea : in his mind feeling gods high displeasure vppon him , for his disobedience , ion. 2. from which varietie of sence , there issue fiue seuerall interpretations of this article , none of them exorbitant from the scriptures tracke , or erring from the analogy of faith . 1 that christ his bodie was laid in the graue . 2 his soule , separate from the bodie , went to the place where were the soules departed . 3 his deitie exhibited it selfe , as it were present , in the lowest pit , to the terrour of the deuils , and further despaire of the reprobate . 4 that the efficacie and power of his death , did euen thether stretch it selfe . 5 that christ suffered those extreme anguishes and torments , which , for our sakes , by his father appointed he was to endure . there is also a sixth , which passeth most rife among th● fathers , who , taking inferi for abrahams bosome , expound it , that christ wēt thether ad liber andum liberandos to conuay the fathers , deceased before his resurrection , into the place where nowe they are : but not returning , as the grosse papistes expresse him , like another hercules & thoseus , with a flagge and a crosse . saint austen confesseth he could not satisfie himselfe with any exposition thereof , especially of that place of saint peter , which seemes most to confirme it . cyprian , or ruffinus approue the first , that hee lay in his graue . the schoolmen mightilie trouble their heades , 1. into what place of hell hee went ? thomas includes all the parts of hell , as they haue diuided it : that as an haruenger he scowred limbus patrum , and rid all from thence : as a conqueror he presented himselfe in tartarus , for the terror of the damned ; as a visitor he surueyed purgatory , promising them remission ; 2. howe hee descended , and was there ? caietan standes to it , that hee was there secundum effectum , powerfully , not personally . durande , that his soule was in paradise secundum essentiam , substantially , but in hell ad effectum . their apollo aquinas , that hee was in limbo patrum in the first manner , in the other partes of hell , onely , in power and effect . 3. whether he endured the paines of hell , or were in loco paenae sine paena , as bonauenture wil ? or in paine & torment , as caietan collecteth out of psal. 16 ? 4. what fruit and profite his descention wrought , whether he conferred any essentiall blessednes on the saints , which makes against augustine : or increase thereof onely by hope of euasion from purgatorie in time . 5. whether the soules in abrahams bosome only , or other besides them were manumitted ; and among the rest , yea ( one legend will haue it ) before the rest , plato his soule had the preheminence , hauing the grace first to receiue the faith . these curious quaerees , and fabulous eliminations of hels secrets , which s. iohn properly calleth the deepnes of sathan , haue made men of zeale and iudgement to recourse to the scriptures , if there they may find a more full , certain & theologicall sence of that article . nowe then if the puritanes ( as this scorner tearmes them ) among these hydraheaded expositions , one suppullulating after another , admit of the last , viz. his extreme agonie , and feare in the garden , and on the crosse , induced thereunto , respectiuely , considering , 1. the basenesse of that nature , wherein hee was vilified , despicatissimi vernaculi , imó vermiculi , saith s. bernard . 2. the cause he vndertooke , our sinnes : 3. the punishment for them , an accursed death . besides the phrases in scripture , expressing those anguished of mind : in the ingresse of this abissus , his soule heauie euen vnto the death , mat. 26 , with that strong crie and teares to bee deliuered , hebr. 5 : in the progresse therin , those grumi sanguinis , clots of bloud breking from him luc. 22 : in recessu intimo , when he was deepest in , that dreadful clamor , expressing a most horrible passion , my god , my god , why hast thou forsaken mee ? math. 27 : with-all , his triumphes ouer the powers of hell , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , admitt which you please , either the first , referring it to his crosse , as origen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vpō the tree , where he did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , traduce them openly , videlicet , those spoiles which by conquest hee had recouered from the strong man , math. 12. or the second , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in himselfe , which must be referred to bodie and soule both together , which could not be in hell locally , his bodie neuer descēding thether , therefore to bee referred to his suffering , which for that cause bernard calleth actio passiua , & passio actiua ; if vpon these inducements , hauing , as they thinke , more pregnant proofe in scripture , then any the rest , they sticke to this ( put case the exposition be not the most proper ) yet are they not to be accused of denying the article , for misse-interpretation is no deniall : perhaps , to expresse more liuely , and impresse in our thoughtes more deepely , that direfull conflict , which for vs wretches it pleased him to endure , they haue vsed woordes somewhat hyperbolicall , as despairing and forsaken : yet if first we consider our sauiour in his meere humane nature , the deity , as it were , sequestring it selfe for a time , to lay him more open to this dreadfull combate ; secondly , that both some of the fathers , and also their owne writers , haue vsed almost the very same woordes of extremitie , s. ierome , that he did trepidanter renuere , with trēbling refuse , damascene , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that he was truely and vnfainedly affrighted , citing athanasius for his authoritie ; rabanus , that his humane nature was derelicta ; for●orne , forsaken ; and therefore c●ied out , as we do in extreame daungers and agonies , qui deseri nos putamus , thinking and saying with dauid , wee are cast out of the sight of gods eyes ; and canus , that being derelictus à deo , omnique penitùs solatio destitutus , forsaken of god , & left void of all cōfort frō him , he culd not but sorrow ; surely thē this accusatiō of denying this article , & of blasphemous arrianisme , allightes vpō these fathers , & themselues , as vpō the puritans . but whōsoeuer this imputation toucheth , it no way concerneth , as at first said , our english professors , who establish that article , inioyning it to be accepted as an article of faith , the exposition whereof , as it is generally receiued in england , that right reuerende father the b. of winchester hath set downe . and so at last wee haue found an end of this long article , consisting of so ma●y branches . whereof wee may say with the greeke philosopher , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it hath had many lies , & as many contumelies . the fifth article . the protestantes haue no meane to determine controuersies , and abolish heresies . as the protestantes neither know what they beleeue , nor why they beleeue : so haue they no means in their church to settle them in vnitie of beleefe , no● to determine controuersies , nor to abolish heresies , as hath the catholike church : aunsweare . this is like the sophister , who hauing spent all his argumentes beefore his houre , cries out , repetamus omnia breuiter , & rotundè , let vs goe ouer them againe briefly and roundly : hee wanted matter to fill vp his odde nomber of fi●ue , therfore he botcheth it vp with the second , third , and fourth articles , bringing vs backe to his why , & what , making vs worse then emperikes and quackesaluers : for they know , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that such a salue is good for such a wound , but not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the reason thereof : as for vs , we know neither why , nor what we beleue . the great philosopher thought that orators , which would demonstrate their coniectures ; & geometricians which would perswade their principles , were very foolish ; because neither thinges probable could be ratified by demonstrations , nor thinges necessary are to be induced by perswasion . the grounds of our faith are supernaturall and diuine , the cause spirituall and inward , and therefore not to be examined , nor aunsweared by why and what , that is humane reason ; yet we say as before , that the what , the matter of our faith , is the holy scripture , written , that we might beleeue , saith iohn ; which without doubting , we must beleeue saith austen . the why , that is , the meanes why wee beleeue ex auditu , rom. 10 , by the word preached , that is oleum effusum in s. bernard . the cause why , ex motu , the inward operation of the spirite , that is oleū infusum . for magisteria are adiutoria , saith augustine , the ministerie of the word is a coadiutor with the spirite , but cathedram in coelo habet , qui corda docet , he that informeth the heart , is the doctor of the chaire , not of moses in the synagogues & schooles of ierusalem , math. 23 : but in heauen is his chaire , from whence he teacheth by his spirite . againe , he reuoketh vs to church and councels , foure times repeated within foure leaues , to which , because we will not stand with out due examination or iust cōtradiction , therefore hee inferres , that we haue no meanes to settle faith , to determine controuersies , to abolish heresies : all which haue beene aunsweared in the former articles , wherin we appropriate these especial meanes vnto the spirite of god , and the holy scriptures ; for the first , the scripture , saith isidore , worketh in vs faith , not obliquely , hoouerly , & ambiguously , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , firmely amassed and compact , deepely setled , qui ne branle point , as the french speake , not mutable , not nutable : for that which onely ingendreth faith , is the principall meanes to settle faith , which are onely these twoo , the word and the spirite , because all faith , by the confession of the schoolemen , is either acquisita , which is the effect of the woord read or preached ; or infusa , which is the operation of the spirite , without which the word is not effectual ; for nunquam pauli sensum íngredieris , nisi pauli spiritum imbiberis , a man shall neuer vnderstand paul his meaning , vnlesse hee haue beene touched with paule his spirite , saith bernard : for which cause , both the gospell is called the ground and stablishment of faith . colos. 1. and the apostles and prophets , the foundation of our beleefe ephes. 2. which was not spoken personally , but as aquinas well interprets it , of their doctrine & writings , this being no derogation to christ his priuiledge , who is the principall fundament , beecause , as the apostle speaketh of himself , they hauing sensum christi , do preach nothing els but christ , and him crucified , 1. cor. 1. so that whereas other writers are to be read cum iudicandi libertate , with libertie to censure them , as wee please , with choise whether wee will beleeue them or no ; the scriptures must be read cum credendi necessitate , and therefore canus confesseth , that vltima resolutio fidei , the last resolution of faith , must bee vppon the spirite his inward operation . and aquinas , that fides non debet inniti , our faith must not be settled vpon any other writinges or decrees , then the authors of the canonical bookes haue set downe . whereupon the bishop before named makes this conclusion , proper to our purpose . nulla igitur alia &c. no other principles of diuinitie , no other doctrine of any diuines except of christ , the prophets , and apostles , fidem ecclesiae fundat , doth ground or settle the faith of the church secondly , for the determining of controuersies , wee appeale to the princes deputie , the vicar generall of christ ; not the pope , whome in this case they deifie , wee defie him , but vicarium domini , as tertull. calles him , the holy ghost ; and to his sentence , viz. the scriptures , wherein there is that vicaria vis spiritus sancti , that power delegate of the spirit : and thus put the case with s. augustine . ista controuersia iudicem requir it ? doth this controuersie require an vmpire ? iudicet christus , let christ be he : which hath those three perfections required in a iudge , ( confessed , though ironically , yet truely , by the herodians , math. 22. ) giuing a true sentence , wherein we are assured , there is no error ; absolute , admitting no appeale , vpright ; without bias of partialitie : iudicet cum illo & apostolus , and with him ioyne the arbitrement of the apostle , because christ himselfe speaketh in the apostle . excellent is that place of optatus , are their controuersies , in poynts of christianitie ? iudges must bee procured to reconcile thē , not christians , they will bee partiall on each side ; not pagans , they are not capable of these mysteries ; not iewes , they are sworne enemies against the truth : from earth wee appeale to heauen ; sed quid pulsamus ad caelum , but why stand we knocking there ; cum habeamus hic in euangelio , since here wee haue him in the gospel ? where if wee knocke , the doore shall be opened , by him , whome theophyl . calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the porter of the scriptures . and so , for that point , we conclude with s. basil , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , let the holy scripture determine betweene vs , for there we haue controuersiarum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the deuoyement & dissolution of all controuersies , said the noble emperour constantine , in the councell of nice . for in gods matters , who more fit to iudge then god himselfe ? idoneus enim sibi testis est , qui nisi per se cognitus non est . the same we say of the third , for abolishing herefies , the scriptures beeing as proper and sufficient 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to confound an heresie , as it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to found a veritie . for which cause both the spirite and the woord are compared to fire . the spirite , 1. cor. 3. discerning betweene straw and siluer , stubble and gold : the word , ier. 23. disgregans heterogenea , seuering the pretious from the vile , the mettall from drosse : being both index & vindex , the discrier of heresies , & the destroyer of them ; the boke of god , by the power of the spirite , being as dauids sling and stones , able to prostrate goliah , and repell the philistines , & therefore , though councels assembled for confounding heresies , yet the speciall artillerie wherwith they battered those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , lofty imaginations of rebellious heretikes , were fetched from the tower of dauid , cant. 4 , this armory of god. for , if the high priest discerne not of the leprosie , or crime secundum legem , according to the law , though his authoritie were great , yet his sentence was frustrate ; it beeing not free in matters of religion for men to determine , or condemne what they will , but iuxta leges , so farre forth as the law prescribes thē , saith a papist on that place : otherwise it might proue a tyranny ouer the conscience 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to be lordes ouer the faith of men , to inforce them without scripture . so then , we conclude this point with that precept of the wise mā . his amplius fili mine requiras , seeke no farther , nor other meanes then these , the spirite and the scriptures , for the true catholike church admittes of no other , howsoeuer that church , thus nick-named , the whore of babylon , enamored with strange louers , doth boast herselfe of traditions , and councels , and fathers . for our sauiour christ by his diuine prouidence did foresee , that heresies were to arise in his church , as his apostle s. paule a doth warne vs : the which as plagues were to infect his flocke , and therefore he not onely forewarned vs of them , but also gaue vs meanes how to preuent and extinguish them . hee willed vs to heare his church , if wee would not be accounted as ethnikes b and publicans . he ordained pastors and c doctors , least we should be carried away with euery blast of vaine doctrine . he promised vnto the churche , the d assistance of the holy ghost , in such sorte , as e they which would not heare her , would not heare him . aunsweare . vmbratilis lucta , as the prouerbe is , all this we yeelde , acknowledginge , that ●ruth must bee planted : that heresie must bee extinguished : that the teachers and pastours must bee authorized : that councels may bee assembled ; that the church must bee obeyed : yet with prouisoes , that the trueth bee no other then the gospell wee haue receyued . nothing counted heresie , which is religion sincerely professed , act. 24. that those pastors , haue the vrim & the thummim . deut. 33 , science and conscience , feeding their flocke diligently and holesomely , 2. tim. 4. that councels bee lawfull assemblies , act. 19 , congregated by command of princes , not hurried by the pope ; not a rabble of illiterate friers ; not a banded rout of preiudiciall priestes ; not a factious bench of partiall vmpieres ; not ouer-swaying the scriptures by authoritie and nomber , but ouer-awed by the scriptures ; admitting that sence quem ex dictis retulerint , non attulerint , which they can worke out of them naturally , not inferre vppon them peruersely . lastly , that the church haue roometh vniuersally extended , not confined to rome straightly pynioned . but that place out of math. 18. dic ecclesiae , is here a guest , though boldly inuited , yet not lawfully arrayed ; that precept commaunding a reference , and obedience to church gouernours , in quarrels personall , not questions theologicall , for reconcilement of mutuall offences , not determining spirituall controuersies . wherein if either party be found , auther malitiously implacable , or vnreuerently obstinate , hee is to bee cast out as an ethnike and publican , vnfit for the company of christians whose character is charitie ioh. 13. whose duetie is obedience heb. 13. the catholikes therefore beleeuing certainely that the church cannot erre , that the generall councels cannot deliuer false doctrine ; that the pastors and auncient fathers , with ioynt consent cannot teach vntruethes , when heresies spring vp , presently with the voice of the church a pluck them vp euen by the rootes ; and so euer hath practised , and after this manner hath ouerthrowne all encounters , false opinions , and errours , which the deuill by his ministers euer planted , or established in the world , and so they haue bene freed from all braules and quarrels in matters of religion . aunsweare . those verily are the meanes , wherein al the pseudocatholickes concurre for decision of controuersies , all which haue before beene satisfied , therefore the present aunswere is easie , and not necessarie : easie , for those meanes are mens , meerely humane : the practise of the church , the custome of men ; the definition of councels , the iudgemēt of men ; the sentēce of the fathers , the censure of mē ; partiall in affection , preiudiciall in opinion , changeable by repeale of a second sentence ; challengeable by appeale to an high iudge , lawfully to bee reuersed by a sounder , though a lesse nūber : whereas the arbitrement of the scripture , which is ours , is the infallible rule of truth , and uerdict of the holy ghost ; none more direct , more constant , more absolute . easie againe , it hauing beene often shewed , that both the fathers , of which they so vainely bragge , saepe loquuntur , non quod sentiunt , sed quod necesse est , sayth saint ierome . that the church so called by them and the councelles , which represent that church , haue verie often beene deceiued . some confirming the blasphemie of arrius , no les thē ten in number ; others establishing rebaptization of hereticks , in the concurrence of three councelles , sayth pamelius ; with the consent of huge assemblies , saith eusebius ; and among the rest , the councell hee here nameth in the margent , the first nicen : some prohibiting second mariage , as that in neocaesaria ; others disauowing returne to warre ; others rearing vp idolatry , and giuing angels and the soules of men bodyes , as the second nicen ; and in this theme might be infinite , but i shut it vp with that speech of saint augustine , sed haec humana iudicia deputentur , & circuuenire , &c account no otherwise of these , then of mens iudgements , either circumuenting by false glosses , or circumuented by corruptions ; for which cause pelagius the pope delt wisely , who would not stand to councelles for the prerogatiue of his place , but fetched it from the gospel . not necessary : this differēce about authoritie of councelles , and soueraintie of the church , being but a muster , no skirmish ; no disputation , but a shewe : for when bellarmine hath runne himselfe out of breath , by putting out all his reasons in the behalfe of councelles ; and stapleton ingaged his whole credite with putting in his 15. cautiōs , about the iudge of controuersies ; all their items are at last closed vp within the pope his ephod , or his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , his papall soueraigntie , or his sentence peremtorie ; for hee is lex animata in terris , the liuing law vpon the earth , containing all lawes with in the compasse of his breast ; his authoritie by his flatteres proclaimed to bee greater then the angelles ( councels are shadowes ) in foure things , the iurisdiction , the administration of the sacraments , in knowledge , and in reward : by whome not onely the bookes and writings of all authours , are to be approoued or disauowed ; but euen generall councelles haue their efficacie and confirmation : and the interpretation of the sayde councelles subiect to his determination : because the iudgement of councels , and persons , beeing meerely humane , may foure waies be corrupted , by feare , by fauour , by malice , by largesse . onely his sentence is to be admitted as from peter his owne mouth . god himselfe and he , the pope , hauing but one consistorie , without whose countenance and authoritie , the scriptures are but as aesops fables , in the opinion of hermannus & hosius ; the councels but conuenticles their decrees like liuing mens wils , and the fathers no body : wherefore as the orator sayde , that pronuntiation had the first , second , and third place in rhetorick : so in definitiues of religion , the erection of fayth , the compoundinge of controuersies , the abandoning of heresies is wholly the popes : the rule of fayth , what the pope alloweth ; the interpretation of the fathers , which the pope followeth ; the definition of councelles , which the pope confirmeth ; the practise of the church , what the pope auoweth . but bee it the popes omnipotence , or assembly of councelles , or consent of fathers , or tradition of the church , wee say with saint augustine , that none of these are to be preferred before christ , cum ille semper veraciter iudicet , sithence his iudgement is alwayes true and irrefragable , ecclesiastici autem indices , sicut homines , plerunque falluntur , but ecclesiasticall iudges , as men , are often deceiued ; whereby we nothing impaire the dignitie or necessitie of councels , acknowledging them with saint austen to bee saluberrima , most soueraigne antidotes against the poyson of heresies ; yet wee subiect them to the spirit and the scriptures , which alone haue this priuiledge , non errare : for the heresies which the councels , he specifieth , did cōdemn , vanished not by their authoritie personall , but the power of the word , the principall weeding hooke that cuts vp the tares , math. 13. so were the patrons of circumcision confuted , in that councell act. 15 by moses lawe ; so the arrians , in the nicen synod , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , receiued their deaths wound by the sword of the spirit , which is the word of god , eph. 6. but the protestants admitting of the sole scripture , as vmpire and iudge in matters of controue●sie , and allowing no infallible interpretor thereof , but remitting all to euery mans priuate spirit , and singular exposition , cannot possibly , without error , winde themselues out of the laborinth of so many controuersies , wherwith th●ey are no so inueagled and intricated . aunswedre . ignorance ioyned with malice is importunate : this section concerning the authoritie and interpretation of scriptures , hath receiued a sufficient answere , ridding vs from all blame , for admitting that which christ commaundeth , whose will is that we should search the scriptures , iohn 5. which are not onely witnesses of him , but iudges for him : therefore called the rule of life and beleefe , discerning the crooked from that which is straight ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as saint paul termes it , phil. 3 , the one rule , not partiall , as bellarmine calles it , but totall & perfect . else were it no rule , sayth theophylact , if it admitted either appositiō or ablation : the ignorance thereof is the cause of error , by our sauiour his iudgement , math. 22. the inquirie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of a more exact addition thereuuto , is heresie in the opinion of basil : it driueth from the church as christ the marchandize out of the temple , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all iarre which might engender controuersie , sayth constantine the famous emperour ; by it onely were the arrians quelled , as theodoret witnesseth ; & to it , from the councelles , saint austen reuoketh maximinus the hereticke , not doubting there to giue him the ouerthrow ; for whether shall wee goe ? sayth peter , iohn 6 thou hast the wordes of eternall life : which woord written teacheth all thinges that concerne both our faith , the life of this our pilgrimage , 2. cor. 5. and our saluation , the glory of our purchased heritage ; working in vs , sayth damascene , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ● euerie excellent vertue , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all sincere knowledge , without spot or error ; and as the night extinguisheth not the starres , it is the comparison of zepherinus a pope : so no worldly pollution , no soul heresie cā obscure or infect the mindes of the faythfull , sacrae scripturae firmiter inhaerentes , which holde themselues fast to the holy scriptures . other testimonies thou mayst beleeue , or not beleeue , according as thou shalt trust them sayth austen , but these are subiect to no humane iudgement , beeing the sole and supreme iudge of all writings , and decreementes , saith hee else where , and so the fittest vmpire in all controuersies . the same wee say of interpretation , appealing to the spirite working vppon the heart , and the scriptures explaning themselues , the twoo most infallible interpretours . for if that rule of the lawyers bee sound and currant , eius est interpretari , cuius est condere , hee may best expound the law , which made it ; surely the speaches in holy writt , being the motions and dictates of the spirite , 2. pet. 1 no expositor can be so sound and infallible as himself , who best vnderstandeth his owne secretes . 1. cor. 2. and therefore ierome thinkes , that any sence which he giueth not , that wrate it , is an heresie . where if bellarmine his obiection be recōmenced , that the holy ghost speaketh not ; and that the scriptures are , as the philosopher said of law bookes , mutimagistri , dumme schoolemasters ; iudex mortuus , a dead iudge , as canus cals it ; that is false : for god , saith the apostle , spake vnto vs by his prophets , & now by his sonne heb. 1 , not viua voce , for they were deade , but by their writinges : and the word of exhortation speaketh vnto vs as vnto children . heb. 12 , and the law hath a mouth , deu. 17. & the scripture , saith chrisostom , seipsam exponit , expoundes it selfe , not permitting the auditor to erre , and doth present christ vnto vs , being vnderstood and opened 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by the holy ghost , saith theophyl . for the teacher may bee a latere tuo , but if there bee nullus in corde tuo , thou canst not vnderstand , saith austen . but because the holy ghost appeared sometime in the forme of a dooue , therfore they take it , hee hath that qualitie of dooues : aspicis vt fugiant ad candida tecta columbae , to delight and reside , only in glorious assemblies , in general councels , or in the radiant dooue-cote of the popes braine ; but the apostle giues that priuiledge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to euery spirituall , though a priuate man ● . cor. 2. for hee respectes not persons , no● places , nam & vos vnctionem habetis , sayth s. iohn , you also haue the annointing , & those were priuate men . which annointing , teacheth you all thinges , neither neede you , vt quis , that any man , or angell , or councell , or pope , should teach you : and therefore the scripture , beeing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the rule which cannot erre , the spirite inwardly , and the woord outwardly are the most infallible interpreters for exposition , and by consequent , the onely arbiter for controuersies ; beecause hee which knowes the trueth , may soone discerne of a lie , by s. iohn his rule , for that no lie , is of the truth . and they which know the truth , saith aquinas , habent sc●ētiam discernendi , & agnoscendi haereticos , haue the perfect vnderstanding to discerne and know heretikes , and by knowing them to auoide them : for that cause , by dauid , called a guide to our pathes ; by s. peter , a light in darken●s ; by s. austen the ballance to weigh all opinions , whether light or heauie ; the touchstone to trie the mettall , whether base or pure , whether currant or counterfaite , saith chrysostome ; the only ariadnees threed , to extricate our inclosure within any maze of empestered errors ; & the alexanders sword , to cut the gordian knot of the most inexplicable ambiguities . vppon all which premisses wee conclude , that the scriptures , hauinge such 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sole sufficiencie in themselues , & authoritie from the spirite , thereby haue potéstatem decernendi , power to iudge ; and for the exact knowledg they affoord , haue vim discernendi , faculty to discerne betwene trueth and falsehood ; therefore the protestantes to bee commended , for admitting them the sole vmpiere in-controue●sies , & the most certaine interpreters of themselues . onely wee pray with dauid , renouncing our owne insight , open thou our eies , that we may see the woonders of thy law ; viz the assistance of the spirite , which both giues the sence thereof , and mooues the assent therevnto saith bernard . and the i●reconciliable iarres betwixt them and the puritanes , in essentiall pointes of faith , giue sufficient testimonie , that they will neuer haue end , or can haue an ende , holdinge those groundes of opinion , which they obstinately defend . aunsweare . hypocrites vse to see extramittendo , math. 7. but if this lamia , would keepe his eies in his head , whē he is at home , as he puts thē on , going abroad ; hee might there behold the iarres and differences of thomist and scotist ; of franciscan , and dominican ; of regular , and secular ; of iesuite , and priest , among thēselues , in matters very essentiall & capitall : there he might see pighius taxed about adams fall ; chisamensis censured about the death of the bodie for sin , which he denied ; catherinus vexed about the assurance of grace ; durand snaped , about originall sinne , and merite in the workes of grace ; caietan much molested , about the sufficiencie of scriptures ; and so i might goe on : whereas the iarres among vs , though vnkinde , yet not in this kinde , onely for ceremonies externall , no pointes substantial : that fire 1. cor 3 hath tried thē to be but stubble , and straw controuersies ; the word of god , hath appeased them , and will confound them , if malice and preiudice make not men irreconciliable . and albeit some like hedgehogs ( as pliny reports of them , who beeing loaden with nuts & fruite , if the least filberd fall off , will fling downe all the rest , in a pettish humour , and beat the ground for anger with their bristles ) will so leaue our church and remaine obstinate for trifles and accidents , things in themselues indifferent , though the princes authority haue now made them necessary : yet this is our comfort , first , that the gospell preached among vs ( like that fire in the mount hecla , recorded by surius , which drinkes vp all waters , & deuoures al wood cast vpon it , but cannot consume flax , and tow ) hath dispersed the grosses heresies of popery & superstition , though these flaxen rags of ceremonies & shewes , lie glowing , in the embers of some malicious and hot spirits , not consumed . secondly , that we make the scriptures the sole iudge , not appealing to councelles , nor relying vppon mens authorities : which hauing doone , we conclude with paul , siquis sec●s , if any bee otherwise minded 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 god will reueale it , and pacifie them ; and if obstinately minded , we wish his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that god will reuenge them , and cut them off . the truth is , the puritanes snarling hath fed the papists humor , and stuf●●● 〈◊〉 bookes with reproches , who otherwise had wanted matter to vpbraide our church withall , if the other had learned of the god of peace , to haue kept the vnitie of the spirite , in the bond of peace . and finally , they haue no argument to proue , that they haue the true church , true religion , true faith , which all hereticks which euer were , will not bring to condemne the church of christ as well as they . for example , they alleage scripture , so did the arrians : they contemne councels , the arrians did not regard them : they challenge to themselues the true interpretation , the same did all the hereticks to this day : and to conclude , they call themselues the little flocke of christ , to whome god hath reuealed his truth , and illuminated thē from aboue , all which the donatists with as good reason , & better arguments , did arrogate vnto thēselues . the ●ame i say of the pelagiās , nestorians , eutichians , with all the rable of the damned hereticks . answere . the church in this land hauing the two principall notes of a visible particular church , the worde diligently preached , the sacraments duely administred , is more absolutely perfect , and more gloriously renowned , then the romish synagoge ; notwithstanding that bozius the strumpets herald , hath charged her eschucheon with a fielde of 57 coates , and displayed them in his standard , as the ensignes of christs catholicke church ; for that rule of saint ierome being sounde , that ecclesia ibi est vbi fides vera est , the church is wher true faith is , which cannot bee planted without the word , therfore the most certaine note of a true church , is where the scriptures do sincerely sound ; ciui●atem enim dei dicimus , cuius scriptura testisest , sayth austen : the primitiue church was known by continuing in the doctrine of the apostles , act. 2. the lords field distinguished from others by the good seede sowne in it math. 13. the children of the kingdome , that is , of the church , bred and fedde by that seede . 1. cor. 4 the law of god ▪ read and heard among the israelites , was the glorie of their vvisedome ouer all nations , and the speciall note of gods church , and his presence among thē , deut. 4. yea , but hereticks also alleadge scriptures : first that is false , for if hereticks were brought to that passe , sayth tertullian , vt de solis scripturis quaestiones suas sisterent , stare non poterant , to be tryed , for their questions , by scriptures onely , they were not able to stand ; and therefore they haue principally indeuoured to abolish , or falsifie them . dionysius bishop of corinth proues it by a cōsequēt , that they , which would abuse and corrupt mens writings ( for at his they had beene nibling , ) much more would depraue and falsifie the scriptures : saint austen found it in them , that they would deface scriptures prosua libidine , as themselues list , to serue their lust : pro voluntatis suae sensu , non veritatis absolutione , sayth hilary . instances they giue both , in mar●io● , montanus , photinus , sabellius , and others ; as for the manichees , they insisted more vpon their inspired manes , then the authoritie of holy writte . and ruffinus reasoneth thus , ( though by a contrary argument ) yet to the same purpose with dionysius aboue named , and thinketh it no maruell for hereticks to abuse the writings of that famous scholer origen , sithence they could not withhold impias manus , theyr prophane hands from the books of god. secondly , admit they number and quote scriptures , yet it is but either apishly , as chrysostome compareth it , by fond imitation of true professors ; or peruersely , by corrupting the alleadged places , mentiuntur , sayth hilary . origen will tell him that there is quaedam castitas diaboli , that heretickes will bee exceeding holy , both in the deportment of their life , and in the amoncelment of scripture texts , thereby to insinuate their errors more plausibly into the mindes of men : yet else where he will distinguish to this our purpose properly , there is a difference betweene euangelizare bona & bené ( the want of an aduerbe as it marres a good action , so a sound interpretation ) accumulating of scriptures is not all one with the right vnderstanding , and the proper applying of them : it being not in this case , as in arithmeticke , where two are more then one , and three more then two : but as in gedeons army , iudg. 7 non numerus , sed virtus , not the coaceruation of places , but the true alleadging , which supports the truth , and distinguisheth heretickes frō sincere professors , ●am de intelligentia haeresis est , non de scriptura saith hilary , heresie growes , and is grounded vppon a wrong sence , not from the text and letter it selfe ; and this made origen to say , that heretickes vrging scriptures turned stones into bread , feeding themselues with that which choaked them , and ouerthrowes them ; the reason is giuen by hilary , quia scripturas sine sensu loquuntur , they number , but misconstrue them , either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 eph. 4. cogging a sence deceitfully , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rackinge them peruersely ; or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with a botch , sewing a newe peece to an old garment , by adding to the texte , that which was not there originally : the three principall properties noted by ruffinus amonge heretickes . and yet as hilary excellently closeth vp that point , malè sanctis rebus praeiudicatur &c. it is a bad argument , and a greater iniury against holy writinges , beecause some men haue profanely abused them , that therefore they should not be vsed at all . yea rather as else where hee speaketh , vesaniam & ignorantiā haereticorum properamus expraeconijs propheticis & euangelicis confundere ; wee make more speede to confute heretikes by them . for the deuil encountred our sauiour with scripture text mat. 4 , but christ made him recule , with the same weapō better handled . the arrians pretended scripture for their blasphemy , but the scriptures reioyned prooued their ouerthrow ; the reason giuē by theodoret , their all●gations were but literall , but the opposition was out of the scriptures 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , religiously vnderstood , and faithfully applied . briefly for this point of heretikes alleaging scriptures , the philosopher said excellently , nihil est tam manifestae vtilitatis , quin in contrarium transferat culpa : and dauid imprecates it for a curse , and god inflictes it for a plague vpon reprobates , that the thinges which should be for their wealth , proue vnto thē an occasion of falling . therfore as healthfull bodies are not to refuse good meates , because men discrased , of ill stomacks , and worse liuers , tourne the best aliment into bad humours : so though heretikes tortuously peruert scriptures , for their owne defence ; yet we must not cease to relie vpon them , and recourse vnto them , and , as s. basil wisheth , to confirme all matters of faith by their testimony , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , both for the establishment of the sincerely affected , and the discomfiture of the heretically infected . the three other obiections following are meere cal●mniations ; for , concerning the contempt of councels , first there is an ignoraunce in the comparison betweene the arrians and vs , for they regarded and vrged councels , and so had good cause to doe , their blasphemy hauing ben supported by so many . and it seemeth by s. austen his appeale frō councels to scriptures , that maximinus the arrian much insisted vpon the councel of arimine : then a slaunder against our professors , because , though we make not councels the groundcels of our faith , yet we reuerence & embrace them , except before excepted . for albeit a priuate man indued with the spirite of god , and girded with the sword , that is , with the word of the spirit , may confound an hereticke ; yet in a publike assembly the sentence is more solemne , the consent more weightie , stil adding this withall , that the iudgement awarded by them , is but ministeriall , and instrumentall ; but the law , according to which they iudge , must be the word written . and thus wee regard councelles , so farre forth as they bee directed by the spirit of councell esa. 1● . for if wee receiue the writings of men , the testimonie of god is greater , ioh's . the other for priuate interpretation , hath had his repulse before , we challenge it not to our selues , but refer it to the spirite of god , & say with s. bernard , cognoscite dominum in fractione panis , for the bread of life , which we breake vnto the people , though it be nostris manibus , yet it is dei viribus , it is done by our hands , but with his strength . and for the laitie canus often confesseth , that the anoynting teacheth euerie priuate man , in whom he is , easily to vnderstand whatsoeuer is properly necessarie for his saluation in the scriptures . if heretickes should not arrogate the spirite vnto themselues , there should bee no verie great vse of that excellēt gift , discretio spirituum , the discerning of the spirits , to trie whether they be of god or no. 1. iohn 4. as for the third of the little flocke , it is a fancie of his owne dreame , no claime of ours . perhaps against that vaine flourish of visible vniuersalitie , whereof the church of rome so boasteth , we haue obiected , that it is no certaine note of christs church , because many , as vegetius speaketh , in this militant state march promilite , which are not milites ; nor all are israell , which are of israell , rom. 9. that christ , in the mustre of his souldiours , findes many t●multuarios et euocatos , such as are good for a push and away ; many called ; but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a few enrolled & billed , apoc. 3. that in the suruiew of his heards , there are many pinfolds , & store of sheepe-skinnes , yet but a little flocke , luk. 12. that though there bee many thousandes to bee saued , yet , in comparison of the millions damnable , they are but few luk. 13. that sullen pride of factious humours , who will sequester themselues from the multitude , as the purer , because the fewer , wee condemne and disauow . our number we doubt not , but it is as great as theirs , and that euen in the court of rome , there are which loath the abominations of rome . that bragging vaunt of vniuersalitie , wee account to bee the raskales reason in the poet , nos numeras sumus● which esteeme of voyces by number , not weight ; the pagans clamour for dianaes shrines , whom all the world worshippeth , act. 19 constantius his argument for arrius against athanasius , that all the world had receyued that opinion , and the whore of babilon , the church of rome , the chimaera of hethenish superstition in her ceremonies , of hereticall positions in her religion , her challenge , though most false , that her wine hath been drunke iu all corners of the earth : what sayth saint austen ? turba premit christum , pauci tangunt , there are many which croude christ , there are but fewe touch him ; and for the last clause of thrusting vs into the number of damned heretickes , if i should trace his steppes , it were easie to demonstrate , that as the nabis in egypt , hath the shape of diuers beasts ; and hanniballes armie consisted ex colluuie omnium gentium , of the very baggage of all nations : so the whole body of poperie is nought else , but a verie amassed lumpe of pagan rites , and olde heretickes dregges , as in their purgatorie , idolatry , sacrifice for the dead , holy water , free will , challenge of the church , merite of workes , renouncing of scriptures , &c is euident to an vnpartiall scholler ; but being not so proper to the scope of this article , i conclude the whole in this manner , that sithence by austens confession , ecclesiasticall iudges are but men , and may soone be deceiued ; that councelles , as hilary excellently noteth , are oft contrarie to themselues ; that the pope , their sacra anchora , their church oracle , is like as hee spake of egypt , a splitting reede , esa. 36. daungerously erronious ; therefore the sole meanes for the establishing of fayth , and of the minde in doubts , and against heresies , are the books of god. for in the deluge of these waters deepe , deceitfull , wauering , where should the doue rest , but on noahs arke , or the minde of man repose it selse , but on the word written ? quod proficit ad fidem , ad vnitatem , ad salutem , sayth hilary , which au aileth for faith , there is the setling of our beleef , and for vnitie , there is the diuision of controuersies , and the repulse of heresies , the twoo speciall breaches of godly vnitie . and now i had thought these articles of fayth had beene ended , but hee had a spare syllogifme , which hee knevve not vvhere to marshall , and that he hath annexed to this article , like a goose feather to a woodcocks tayle . and to conclude these articles of fayth , i say that if the principles of the protestantes religion bee true , saint paul himselfe exhorteth vs to infidelitie , which i proue thus . whosoeuer exhorteth vs to doubt of that which we are bound to beleeue by fayth , exhorteth vs to infidelitie : but s. paul doth exhort vs to doubt of our saluation ( which we are bound to beleeue by fayth , according to the protestants religion , ergò s. paul exhorteth vs to infidelitie . the maior is plaine : for to doubt of matters in fayth , is manifest infidelitie , because whosoeuer doubteth , whether god hath reuealed that which indeede hee hath reuealed , beeing sufficiently proposed , as reuealed , virtually doubteth whether god sayth truth or lieth . the minor is prooued by the testimony of s. paul , a cum timore & tremore salutem vestram operamini , with feare and trembling worke your saluation . all feare , whether it bee filiall feare , or seruile feare , includeth doubt , the one of sinne , the other of punishment . aunsweare . the hottest fire cannot consume a dead mans heart , which hath bene poysoned ; nor the spirite of grace allay the blasphemy of a feared conscience , cauterized with malice , not sparing to accuse euen the greatest apostle of infidelitie . yea but he doth it not simply , onely vpon condition , that is , if the principles of the protestants religion be true . their principles are , that there is but one god , and three persons ; that christ is the sauiour of the world ; that hee was incarnate and crucified ; deade and glorified , &c. is s. paul an infidell , because we lay these groūds of religion ? his meaning is of principles differing from popery . first then , that is his leaudnesse , or his ignorant rashnesse , indefinitely to attache all the principles , as accessarie to infidelitie . secondly , it had beene plaine dealing to haue named them : for , because we set down , that there is but one purgation , and that in this life , the bloud of iesus christ , no purgatory after to be expected ; that there is but one sacrifice propitiatory once offered , videlicet , the body of christ crucified , no masse to be reiterated ; one mediator betweene god and man , the man iesus christ , no saintes to bee inuocated ; that faith onely iustifieth , no workes coadiuuating ; these are our principles , or rather , the scripture positions differing from the romanistes , doth s. paul therfore exhort vs to infidelitie ? i prooue it thus , saith hee whosoeuer exhorteth vs to doubt &c , here is that speech of reuerend synesius verified , cùm ex plaustro , quod aiunt , conuicijs sit insectatus , multaque in nos sit vociferatus , when hee had with full mouth , and open crie , challenged all the principles of our religion for infidelitie , at the last , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the base sophister , shewes vs a mouse for a lion ; and seazeth vppon one onely principle , namely , the assuraunce of saluation . which when it is examined will proue but the cyclops out cry , in the poet , after his sole and onely eie was stroken out , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , no bodie , no bodie . for first , this question , whether the certainetie bee of hope , or of faith , is not iointly and generally determined . among all protestantes . againe , that we are to ascertaine our selues therof , euen by faith , is the opinion of some eminent papistes . durand , is censured by medina , and registred in his rew of erroneus doctors for it . catharinus and gropperus , mightely oppugned the contrary as●ertion in the trentish conuenticle . lastly , the syllogisme it selfe , is both fond & false : fond in the maior , for doubting may bee in pointes of faith without infidelitie or heresie , as before out of melchior canus hath bene shewed , because infidelitie , is commōly lincked with pertinacie : then the probate of the maior , in that faith is not tyed to thinges reuealed alone , beecause multa creduntur quae in scriptur is non leguntur , saith austen many thinges are beleeued , not reuealed in scriptures . false in the minor , because that text of s. paul , marginally misalleaged , phil. 2 is no motiue to doubting , but an exhortation semblable to that duetie prescribed to euery mā by god himselfe mich. 6 , sòlicitè ambulare coram deo , to walk warely before the lord , as a sonne before his father , with feare to sinne , not of sinne , that is , least by sinning , he should be counted vnworthy the graces wherewith he is endowed , and the fauour whereof hee is vouchsafed ; not of sinne , as if it were able to cast him finally from god , and so make him either to dispair , or doubt of his saluation ; for being iustified by faith , hee hath peace with god. rom. 5. and hauing semen manens , 1. ioh. 3. he cannot sinne irremissibly : besides this , bellarmine himselfe , frō whome this impious argument is borrowed , puts a difference betweene feare and doubting ; for , saith he , the receiued opinion in the church about this certainetie of saluation , albeit , it remoue not all feare , yet it vtterly taketh away all anxietie , and haesitation , & ipsam etiam dubitationem , and euē doubting it selfe : and therefore , though the apostle will vs to feare , yet hee exhorteth not to doubt , as this mate inferreth . certainelie , if wee consider the state wherein we stand , we shall finde , as the said apostle speaketh , without terrours , within feares , & causes of them both euery wher , by sathan his pollicie , & malice about vs ; by the lustes and affections , raging or tickling within vs ; by the world , either flattering or pursuing vs : but if wee looke vp vnto him that loues vs in his beloued ; to that sacrifice by which wee are reconciled ; that victorie whereby sinne is conquered ; to that spirite wherewith wee are sealed : we may in a christian confidence , and assurance of faith say , with s. bernard , turbatur conscientia , sed nōperturbatur , quoniam vulnerum dei recordabor , my conscience is tossed , not ouerwhelmed , beecause i call to minde the woundes of my god. for how should hee feare , or doubt which hath , as bernard else where speaketh , geminum firmissimumque amoris argumentum , the twy-fold and most sure argument of gods loue ? both that faithfull witnesse apocal. 3 iesus crucified ; and the pledge of the spirite iustifying him , and testifieng vnto him , that he is the sonne of god. rom. 8. a pledge ? saith aquine , yea an earnest 2. cor. 1. for a pledge is restored , when the due is paide , but an earnest is giuen vpon a price , non auferendū sed complendum , not to bee taken backe , but to be made vp . for which cause s. augustine calles it maries part luc. 10 which in this life augetur is encreased ; in the next perficietur is fully complete ; nun quam auferetur , shall neuer bee taken away . this discourse is ful of comfort for the conscience , but a too full of matter for this briefe aunsweare ; my conclusion therefore , for it is , that which is an article of faith , is to be certainely beleeued by faith : but the assurance to our mindes of our saluation , is an article of faith , where we say credo vitam aeternam , i beleue the life euerlasting . if i say , i beleue that there is an euerlasting life after death , so much do the deuils confesse , and the pagans haue testified , yet there is certitudo obiecti assured vnto vs , as beeing promssio dei , the promise of god : but when i say , i beleeue that the eternall life is prepared and belongeth to me , this is certitudo subiecti , & this is opus fidei , the worke of faith ; which hath both this powerfull force to tourne dauids quorum into s. paules ego . blessed are they , saith the prophet quorum , whose sinnes are forgiuen ; quorum ego , of which i am the chiefe , saith the apostle : & also this skill to make a garmēt of christ to put him on rom. 13. for that is a great comfort , & a faithfull saying , that christ came into the world to saue sinners ; yet , that is christ in the broad-cloth , in the whole peece : now comes faith and cuts it out , and applies it specially , which loued me , and gaue himselfe for me galat. 2 , here is christ put on . so then faith assuming a particular minor , out of the maior generall proposition , and making that present which is absent ; ( for that cause said to bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 heb. 11. 1. ) the assuraunce which it giues , is not onely spei , of hope in expectation , but scientie as if it were now in possession , in so much that with the apostle we may say , we know that when hee shall appeare , we shall also appeare like vnto him in glory . vvhich assurance worketh in vs , neither presumption vpon his fauour , whose maiestie is dreadfull , whose iealousie is a consuming fire ; nor carelesse securitie in our course of life , whose standing is so slippery , whose occasiōs to sinne so many . for the holy man iob , who looking vnto his euerliuing redeemer , confidently proclaimed it , though hee kill mee , yet will i put my trust in him iob. 14. yet viewing his owne infirmities , and propensity to sinne , confesseth of himselfe iob. 9 , verebar omnia opera mea , i feared all my workes : which feare , as also this of feare and trembling in the text cited , importeth no suspence of a doubtful , but a reuerent awe of a carefull mind , sollicitous to please , and warie to offend : which , both the phrase of speech , elsewhere vsed , implieth , as in 1. cor. 2. where the apostle conuersed and preached among them in feare and much trembling . of what ? doubted hee his calling ? impossible , for he had it ascertained him , not by mediate instruction , but immediate reuelation gal. 1. or his doctrine ? vnlikely , hee knew it to bee the power of god vnto saluation rom. 1. or their persons ? a base conceite , for if hee sought to please men , he could not be the seruaunt of christ gal. 1. but beeing an embassadour from god , and to deliuer his message , as in the presence of god , he carefully looked both to himselfe , in the deportment of his life ; and to the diuine maiestie of wordes in the manner of his preaching ; that neither by his prolapsion into any sinne , his doctrine shuld be scādalized , nor through vanitie of rhetoricall flourish ( the flags and rags of the false apostles ) the dignitie of the gospel should be amoindred & made frustrate . so the corinthians intertainement of titus , was with feare and trembling , 2. cor. 7. if they doubted of his function , they neede not feare , they might haue renounced him ; for intrusion without iust authoritie , strikes no terrour . it was , as a frier expoundes it , both the reuerend regard of his person , beeing the dispenser of gods mysteries ; aud a duetifull obedience to his doctrine , being the word of life , lest they should seeme vnworthy of an embassy so comfortable , of a messenger so diuine . as also the purport of the apostle his counsell in this chapter phil. 2. which , sum marily , is nothing els but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that they should be like minded to christ vers . 5. in shewing that humilitie and carefulnesse of vpright behauiour in paul his absence , as if he were present vers . 12. least liuing in the midst of a froward and wicked nation vers . 15. the apostles labour by their carelesse leuitie , or carnall securitie , should bee deuoyded & abased vers . 16. this solicitous reuerence , euē in tittleman his paraphrase hauing reference to s. paule his person and their profession , with a feare or warinesse to auoide all scandale , either passiue from their aduersaries , who obserued their māners preiudicially ; or actiue , least thēselues should cōmit any action offensiue to god his maiestie , who had called them ; or derogatiue to the apostles ministery , by which they were called : so that this feare and trembling , to which he exhorteth , is for ordering their conuersation , a cautele most profitable ; not diffidence of saluation , a motiue most discomfortable . for , questionlesse that mind , which cannot rest ascertained of his future happinesse , is most vnsetled , and miserable , euen in the reach of philosophy . quid 〈◊〉 refert qualis status tuus sit , si tibi videtur malus ? what profite or comfort is it , for a mā to know , that the●e is a kingdome prepa●ed , math. 25 , and yet he must doubt whether doome hee shall recei●e , either ite , or venite , goe yee accursed , or come ye blessed ? this beeing the very dictate of nature , in the comicall poet , non est beatus , esse se qui non putat , hee is no happie man , which thinkes not himselfe to be so . the mindes felicitie resting not in the future expectation , but in the present perswasion . and thus haue you his fiue articles of faith obiected , like fiue vials of his malice eff●sed ; whereof , the summe totall being , if you make them , the erection of their c●●rch her tribunall , you may conclude as s. cyprian of the fiue schismaticall priests , ecclesiam spondent , vt qui illi credit , in totum ab ecclesia pereat ; they vrge & wold establish a church , which who so beleeues , takes the ready course wholy to renounce the church . a conclusion to the gentleman m. f. t with whom this pamphleter beginnes and endes . sir , for my salutation must be such , as phauorinus gaue to an vncouth scholler , quicquid est nomē tibi , what you are i know not , nor wil ēquire ; as you haue , no doubt , perused the pamphlet of articles directed against vs , dedicated to you , so , if preiudice haue not fore-stalled your affections & vnderstanding , compare this aunsweare ingenuously and with a good conscience , then iudge of both : some diseases are haereditarie , so is not heresie ; for were it so , & you , by coniecture , the heire to an open and stiffe recusant , not the booke of the mightie god , much lesse this aunsweare of a meane man , can mooue or disswade you . if you be , as he pretendes you , a protestant setled , so remaine ; if you were once , and are fallen , returne ; if you neuer were , repent ; if you neuer will be , perish . yours in christ william barlow . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a04376-e1400 a publius mim . b gregor . mag. c can. lib. ● d thucyd. lib. 1. e plutar. auth. f 〈◊〉 g 〈◊〉 . h hom●r . i epiphan . lib 1 & tertullian . pag. ● . epist. k theodor ▪ l hieron . m contr. ap. lib 1. ci●et orat . pro cael. n b●sil . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 o aristot. a zach , 3. 2 b ●ud . ver 9 c senec● d plut. lye . e plut mor. f a pul . apolog. g act. 24. h terent. i pro. 27. 19 * pag 3. epistol . k hieron . l tho. aq. 22. q. 11. m gal. 5. 19 n tho. ●bi sup . & alf. de cast . l. 1 o theoph. ad rom 13 p aug. epiph. * pag. 3. epistol . q martial . ep●g . r de sig . eccles. s plat. 〈◊〉 . t a●len , apolog. u de ciuit . lib 4. * tull. tus. quaest ▪ a plut , co●ol . b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . c math. 11. 25. d tull. ora● . martial . e tull. de se●ect . f eras eacom . stult . g annot. in aug. h rom. 13. i tit. 3 k 1. sam. 24. l iudg. 3. m mer●punc ; gallobelg . * pag. 2. 〈◊〉 . n plat. pel●p . o ●er ▪ 48. 10. p 〈…〉 . ● q apolog ▪ r nazian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . s 〈…〉 2. t 〈…〉 v. g u 〈…〉 . a 2. sam. 2. 14. notes for div a04376-e3100 a es. 36. 7. strabo . herodot . lact. lib. 1 es. 59. 10 seneca . aqu. math. 12. a esa. 7 b phil. 2. c galat. 4. d rom. 10. e 1. cor. 1 chrysost. in rom. 12. eccl. histo. tutrecrem . vid canū 2 reg. ● . plut. de profect . 1. ioh , 4. plutar. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . gen. 26 ▪ 15. innoc. 3. * simplex animal . * an vnpure beast vid. eras. in 1. tim. ● . basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . conform . fran. fol. 18 psal. ● . math. 26. apoc. 19. antouin . ●●st . lib. 3. tit . 23. martin . de anni institut . ieronym . aduers. to●uin . * quid tāto dignum ●eret hic pro●●ssor hiatu ? horat. a hest. 3. 6. b act. 17 c origen . d euseb. e prudent . euseb. lib. 3 virgil. psal 19. 4 psal. 19. 5 heb. 11. august . psal. 87. 3 psal. 45. euseb. lib. 3 gal. 1. veger . lib. 3 cap. 2● bl●nder . polydor. faber . theodo● . g●lf . mon. platina ▪ naclant . clugi . ignatius dan. 79 iustin. archidamus . * 1 corollar . prou. 27. 17 cant. apocal. clem. alex. li. 7. strom. bern. cant. serm . ●8 . ambr. in ephes. 3. iren. lib. 4. ephes. ● . psalm 73● augustin . psal. 73. matt. 28 psal. 131 ▪ psalm . 80 te●tall . 2. tim. 2. 9. rom. ●1 . ●9 . ioh. 10. 28. psal. 119 〈◊〉 . ioh. 13. 1 1. ioh. 3. 9 ▪ ioh. 1● rom. 8. matth. 10. rom. 8. 30 esa. 54. 2. luc. 13. 23. symbol . apostol . boetius iohn . 3 iren. lib. 3 1. reg. 12 act. 19. 27 nazianz ▪ cant. 1. 3. apoc. 12. 6. gen. 8. 1. r● . 19 ▪ 10 dan. 3. ioh. ●0 ●lin . ad 〈◊〉 ▪ durae . co●● . whi●ak . in expos . ● . missali . pius 2. psal. 48. 8 and ver 7. 2 corollar . a 〈…〉 b math. 16 , ●8 . c math. 〈◊〉 . 20. hora●iu● lu● . ● . luc ▪ ● . bernard ▪ psalm . 45. 〈◊〉 . 53 iohn 1. bern. set 1 de adu●● . 2. es. 60. 11. act. 10. 28 cap. 11. 2 psal. 87. 4. apoc. 5. 9 au ▪ ●erm . 〈◊〉 . 23 es. 4● . 23. matth. 2 august . yb●sup . mat. 10. 18. ioh. 16 ●ct . ●6 . 28 ▪ po●yd . l●b . 2 lamprid. cant. 6. 7 apoc. 17. 2. ● . 4. 〈◊〉 14 ▪ 〈…〉 luc. 5. 31. bernard de ad●e dom. 2. cor. ●2 〈◊〉 p● . 278. franck in 〈…〉 . clem. ale. notes for div a04376-e6660 plut. arist. ●len . aqu. ad rom● ▪ d● ad heb ▪ 1. bernard . rom. 2. 20. 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 . 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 . 〈◊〉 . luc ▪ 1● . rom. 14 ●●charm . tull ▪ acad. qu. august . luc ▪ 24. aqui● . 22 qu. 1. schola to●● 1. cor. 15 ps●l . 58. 4. esa. 53. 1 act. 7. ephes. 2. 20. aqu. 22. ● . 〈◊〉 . 3 heb. 11. aqu. ●n rom ▪ 1. ●ac . 1 ▪ 8. luc. 22. 23 1. the. 3. 10 mar. 9. ●4 heb. 10. 22. eph. 4. 19 alph. de cast ●●b 1. cap. 10 vid. can. lib. 12 ibid. lib. 6. c. 8 luc. 22 august . de bap . lib. 2 spec. pont. lib. 6. cap. 1. 2. pet. 3. 16. nom. 16. 28 2. pet. 1. 1 ▪ cor. 12 1. cor. 2. 1 cor. 12. 1. cor. 14 eph. 4. 14 amd● . fric . bern. ●er . 49 psal. 39. 3. cant. 2. 4 lib. ● . c. 8 panormit . 2. cor. 3. 5. 1. ioh. 2. 27 1. cor. 2 cai●tan . praesat . ad pentat . con● . nic. esa. 59 math. 7 act. 17. 11 august de dact . chri●t . chrysost. in 2. cor. cypr. ad pomp. iob. 6. 19 cen. 9. plutar. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . es. 8. 19 ioh. 5. 2. pet. 1. can ● 3 c. 8. 〈…〉 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 ▪ es. 8 , 20 ioh. 6 , 68 ioh. 4. 42 1 , ioh , ● , 27 exod , 32 es , 53 math , 12 act. 2 ioh 14 august . es , 11 , 2 1● cor , 3. 5 eph. 1. 13 rom. 10 act. 16 apoc. 3. 7 luc. 11. 52 exo. 14. 31. 22 quaest . 6. con●lus . eph. 2. aug. 〈◊〉 . 22. aqu , rbi sup . rom. 10. gorr●m ib. aq. 1. q. 1. a●t . 8. ad . 2 lib. 2. c. 1. quintilian ●ull . de or●● . 〈…〉 〈…〉 lib ▪ 2 〈◊〉 ▪ es. 8 , 20 ter●●llian . cyprian . ieron . in ier. 9. nazian . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . august . in psal. 57. cont. cres. lib. 2. aq. 22. q. ● 1. ioh. 5. 9 r●m . 3. basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . plut. t●es . s●eto● . martial . fol. 140. lib. 2. c ▪ 16. & 16. chrys. in 2. ad cor. hom . 1● . august . epist. 19. canus . ie● . 23. ly●i●ensis . le● . 15. 19 phil. 3. adag eras. 〈…〉 . epiphanius gen. 49. heb. 11 tertu●ian . chrys●st . cant. 4. 4 〈…〉 . 1. cor. 12 〈◊〉 . 7. rom. 14 ▪ ber● . ad patres in monte . 1. cor. 2. lib. 2. ca. 8. iob. 34. ● . canus vbi sup paulô post . aristot. 1. sam. 19. gen. 19. nazianzen . august gerson tract de caus●s . iohn . 3. lib. 2. ca. 6. 1 , cor , 9. in mat. 16. pigh●us . bernard ▪ durius . 1. sam. 13● 1 pet 3. 1● . aq ● . q. ● . 〈◊〉 . 8. 〈…〉 3. notes for div a04376-e10770 august . plut. ag. & cleo. sir thom. moore ▪ 〈◊〉 . a●stot . eras. ex zen●d . tit. 1. quint. li. 4. a cal. l●b 4 instit . cap 9 luth. li. de concil . pag. 14 , &c. h●b . 6. aug 〈◊〉 . 2. cor. 7. ephes. 4. 〈…〉 . psal. 116. rom. 4. ephes. 42 nacl clug . ep. 118 li● . de ba. in act. 15 eph. 5. 2. 7 heb 6. 1 psal. 84. 6 pro● . 4. 18 〈◊〉 . 24 6 heb. 11. 14 2. cor. 5. 7 2. tim. 4. 8 2. tim. 4. 8 bernar. eccles. 1 , 13 mat● 1● . pro. 26. 23 art , ● . canus a ●ontume 〈◊〉 b turp●ssime . p●g . ib. 4. 〈…〉 . cap 8. act. 14. 15 gal. 2 apoc. 19 & 22. act 11 molanus de pract . theolog . a wherein he desireth the ll , of the councell to procure speedil● a new trāslation , because that which now is in vse in england is 〈…〉 . nomb. 1128. 1. cor. 14 eph. 3. 10 1. cor. 12 luc. 11 2 , tim. ● eccles. 12 hos ▪ 4 , 4 hard. art ●5 sect , 6 math. 7 hosius de 〈◊〉 . ve●na . 1 ▪ ●eg ▪ 19 math ▪ 9 1. pet. 2 conc. trid se● . 4 plut ▪ lycur . 〈…〉 . math. 5 15. 1. pet. 2. 2 , 1. cor. 1● . 8 bernard . rom 10. eccles. 1. 13. 〈◊〉 . co● . 1● . 6. 〈◊〉 . 2 cor. 1● . schol in . ● . iohn . 〈◊〉 & . a●st . metaph ● 1. cor . 14. 10 ro. 10 14. heb. 4. 12. rom. 15. 4. 1. tim , 2. 4 bas despit . sanct cap : 1. es. 28. act. 17 terent. 1. cor. 14. 8. 〈…〉 〈…〉 a 〈…〉 〈…〉 . eras●us ex plutar●h . diogenian . orig , in ●●sh . 〈◊〉 4 tertullian . sixtus v. in epist. ad editionem ●atican . 89 〈◊〉 . 9. 36 ieron . epist , 89. & aug. deu 32. 31. bellarm. 1. cont●rou . general . pag. 170. a ieron . b august . gregor . a epist. ad clem. s●pt . b annotat . 1. in pand. c defens . ●id . 〈◊〉 . lib. 4 d th●s . 8. in praef . eg . bibl. sixtus v. vbisupr . this is the maior of this arti●ler ses● . trid. binds the●r , and they confesse it to be corrupt . notes for div a04376-e13200 iob. 6. 4 1. tim. 1. 7 hierom. 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 nazian . a ●n epist. clem. 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 〈…〉 s●r● . 131 1. pet 3. 15 ierem. 1● aqu. 〈◊〉 locum petri. 〈◊〉 ●u●d deus homo . 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈◊〉 10 2 cor. ● 2. co● . 4. 13 1. 〈◊〉 4. 6 1. ●et . 1. 9 〈…〉 act. 2. 3 rom. 11 vers . 12. 13 rom. 11. 33 ambros. aq. 22. ● . 2 1. the. 5. 23 1. cor. 2. math 622. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 2. 14. aquin. psal. 36. 9. 〈◊〉 barnard . a●ex . ab . alex. plutarch iohn . 20. es. 8. 20. vide prae caet . stapl. aristot. tertull. cyprian . basil. tho. aqui. in tim. dionys. carthus . esa. 8. 20 gal. 6. 11 cyrill . g●oss . disti . 3. ● . veter . spi●ra serm . 37 augusti● . aug. contr . faust. tacitus august . de symb. iudg. 12. ruffin . in expo●it . ambros , serm . 38 august . serm . 18 leoser . 11 aug. se. 131 id● se● . ●15 . hieron , ad pamma . aquin. 〈◊〉 q. 1. art . 8. basil. 〈◊〉 . apoc. 21. 3 aqui. ●bi supr . nomb. 23. exod. 32 exod. 4 2. pet 1 apo. 22. 18. august . ●erm . 181 idem . ibid. hiero● . in pamma . rom. 6. august . serm . 131 luc. 24. 39. dionvs . ca●●hus . phil. 2. 7 math 26. basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 1. reg. 6 euseb eccl. hist. lib. 7 hosius . math. 13 bern●rd . in ca●t . nomb. 33 ●●eronym . 〈◊〉 nomb. 16 luc. 18 bernard . esa 6● . ● iob. 15. ●8 prou. 26. 〈◊〉 1. co. 14. 36 iohn 9. martial . aqu. 22. art . 1. q. 10 alphons . de h●res . ●uripid . 2. tim. 2. 19 rom. 2. 〈◊〉 . rom. 9. 6. clem. ale● . aqu. p. 3. q. 2. art . 3 vide canis . a math. 16 b psa 60 c psal. ● ●rasm . ex s●uda . i●en . lib. 4 tertull. ioh. 12 augustin . cyprian . athen. dip . exod. 25 nomb. 17 plu● . mich. 5. 2 math. 2 psal. 76. 1 extra de ma●or & obedientis . 〈…〉 〈…〉 this is his argument . plat. de leg . ephes. 4 rom. 12 2. cor. 9 1. pet. 4 athe. dip . 5 1. cor. 10 rom. 6 〈◊〉 tertullian . august . ad 〈◊〉 . ambros. de sacrament . is●idor , gregory . ephes. 5. canus lib. 8 lombard . erasmus . durandus . alex. alens . 1. ioh. 5 petrus a soto . compend . theolog. bernard . dionys. areopag . duraeus cōt . whitaker . decreta● . tit . de to●neament . §. accedir . a 1. cor. 10 〈◊〉 . 17. eras. adag . thom. p. 3. quest . 75 can. lib. 12. psal. 19 act. 3. 21 luc. 17. 21. eph. 2. 6 iob. 39. 33 math. 24. ●8 2. cor. 5 exod. 12. 9 august . lue. 22. 19. math. 26 august . de verb. 1 om . serm . 33 ioh. 6. 1● . august . aqu. 12. quest . 66 1. cor. 12. eccles. 12 act. 11. 26 gal. 5. 24 gal. 3 eph. 3 gal. 2 august . ad infant . & de conseer , distinct . 2. 1. cor. 1● lombard . li. 4. dist 11 ambros. in 1. cor 11 〈…〉 august . in . ioh. tract . ●9 . idem 〈◊〉 . tract . 26. 〈…〉 〈…〉 a 〈…〉 b mediation . eph. 3. 2. tim. 2. 3. 2. tim. 4. 8. apoc. 1. 5. epist. smyr . heb. 11. epiphan . eccles 9. aug de 〈◊〉 . 1 cor. ● . 〈…〉 mat. ●3 . 〈…〉 〈…〉 2. basil. nazians aquinas . eckius in enchirid. exod. 32. 4. act. 14. durae cant , wh●ttak . 〈…〉 rom. 10. 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 1. tim. 2. 5. heb. 7. 25. ioh. 14. 6. ambros. heb. 2. rom. 4. vit . rom. 8. 34. vers. 26. 〈…〉 vers. 27. ioh. 16. aug. in 〈…〉 . canon . miss . b 〈…〉 tertull● apoll. home : odiss . plat. phaed. virgill . enerd . 6. clem. alex. origen . 〈◊〉 1. co● . 3. p●al . 66. 〈◊〉 1. iohn . 1. apoc. 7. 14. aq●inas . pa. 3. q. 27. art . 3. 1. cor. 3. 1. petr. 4. 〈◊〉 〈…〉 . rom. ● mat. 25. 2. cor. 5. augustine . 〈…〉 vers. 5. luk. 16. apoc. 20. math. 7. tim. 4. rom. 6. august . 〈◊〉 . nazian● chrysost. a tit. 3. a. g●l . lib. 7. gal. 3. rom. 6. 〈…〉 〈…〉 1 cor. ● . 11. math. 3. numer . ●9 . macrob 〈…〉 clem. alex. 〈…〉 chrysostom ezechiel . 36 aquine . lombard . hierom. iohn 5. cam. ●at 8. duraeus . contra whit. lib. 8 cal● . instit . lib. 4. schol. in 1. pet. 3. pighius camp. vbi sup . allen de sacra . chap. 3. august . de bap . contra donat. & citat . a lomb. lib. 4. dist . 4 lomb. vbi sup . f. gen. 8. act. 10. a 〈◊〉 lib. 4. contr . apol. iesuit . lomb. vbi sup . august . de temp . serm . 30. luc. 23. ambros. orat ●uneb . valentin . duraeus de paradox . contr . whita● . 1. cor. 6. 11 a ioh. 20. rom. 12. colos. 3. act. 10. & 26. math. 3. & 4. act. 2. glos. de poenit dist . 5. bon●●en . cipria● psal. 51. rom. 7. rom. 6. 12. iac. 3. pro. 24. 26 g●● . 6. psal. 19. august . august . basil plut. de ●olert . animal . act. 2. psal. 51 plutar. grego . in iob psal. 32. ioel. 2. 1. cor. 9. psal. 69. 10. a sect. 1. huius arti , esa. 54 tit. 3. 1. pet. 3. mar. 16. 〈…〉 psal. 32. 1. ambr in rom. 8. oecum . in rom. 3. gloss. in rom. 8. gorram . rom. 4. 11. pighius sae●● . rom. 3. 24. 25. math. 18. 1. pet. 1. apoc. 1. 5. coloss. 2. 14 mat. 6. 12. august . in psal. 31. gen. 3. phil. 2. gal. 3. psal. 38. 5. ephes. 5. 2. psal. 32. ● . august . ibid. flam. in psal. 32. rom. 8. gor●an . ezech. 18 aqui. p. 3. rom. 7. 17. ● iohn . 1. conc. trid. hilar. in psal. 66. iusti. in dialog . ●ryph . orig. lib. ● ad rom. ●ersius abac. 1. ●3 . psal. 7. 9. horat. psal. 148. psal. 50 psal. 38. 3. dan. 9. 7 bernard . luc. 16. lam. 3. 32. psal. 130. 3. esa. 64. august . rom. 7. 7 iac. 1. 15 2 cor. 5. 21. rom. 14. 23 august . in ioh. rom. 6. 23 nazian . 2. part . 2. art ioh. 8. 42. ioh. 16. 13. aelian . li. 1 , cap. 4. 〈…〉 lib. co . c. 19. ieron . in gal. hilar. de trin. lib. ● . contr . gentilem . ●asil . contr . eun. lib. 4. dist . 4. lib. 1. spin. ibid. bern. lib. 5. de consid . vbi supra . cyrill . phil. 2. ● . ansel. monol . c. 18 august . in psal . 68. cyri. in ioh. ioh. 1. 1 ignat. dionys. areop . hilar. august . bella●mi vbi super . durae . canis . extr , de s. tri●●t . c. damnamus simler . epist . ad pol●●o● . bellar. vbi supra . epiph. haeres . 69. orig. in iob. aug de tri. horat ep . li. 1. 〈◊〉 66 24. ma● . 9. 48. mat. 25. 41. art. 3. 156● . aqui. 22. q. 1. ar 9. psal 16. act. 2. gen. 18. math. 3. psal. 18. 5. 1● sam. 2. 6. ion. ● 2. august . & hieron . et● . august . ad euod . 1. pet . 3. aquinas . p. 3. q. 52. ca●●t . in 3. vide mi●and . bonauent . caietan . ni●et . in naz. isa● , apoc. 2. bernard math. 26. heb. 5. luk. 22. math. 27 colos. 2. origen . math. 12. bernard . math. 27 hieronym . damase . libro . ● . athanas. rabanus . per thom. psal. 31. 24. canus . lib. 1● . b. bilson . ●lutarch . notes for div a04376-e22660 arist. met. idem ad theod. art. 4. sect. 1. ioh● 20. august . epn st . 112. rom. 10. bernar. in cant. august . in 1. iohn . 1. math. 23. isido● . pelus ●p . 30. lib. ● aquin. in rom. 10. ad patres in montem colos. 1. 23. ephes. 2. 20. aqui. ibid. 1. cor. ● . 1. cor. 1. aug. contr . ●aust . li. 11. canusli . ● . aqui. 1. q. 1. art . 8. can. li. 12. tertul. de praeser . id em de v●g . vel . aug. de nupt . & concup math. 22. august . vbi supra . optat. mileu . cont . parmen . theo●● l. in iohn . 10. basil. ep . 80. theod. lib. 1. c. 7. hila. lib. ● . de l'rin●● 1 tim. 3. 1● 1. cor. 3. 13 ier. ●3 . 2● . 1 sam. ●7 . 2. cor. 10. cant. 4. 4. deut. 17. hieroni. ab o●e . 2. co● . 1. ●9 . 〈◊〉 . 12. 12 a 1. cor. 11. b math. ●8 . 17. c eph. 4. 11. d ioh. 14 17 e luc . 10. 16. era. chil. ● . gal. 1. ● . act. 24. 14. deut. 33. 8. 2. tim. 4 act. 19. hila● . lib. 1. de 〈◊〉 . math. 18. dist. 19. cap. 〈◊〉 . ioh. 13. 35. heb. 13. 17. a act. 15 in the first nicen counsell was cōdemned a●●●us : in the councel of constantinople macidonius : in the councel of ephesus nestorius : in the councel of chaledon euty●hes . vide aug. li. 2. retract . cap. 10. vide praeci . pu● staplet . doctr principi . hierony . ad 〈◊〉 . ca. 4 luseb lib. 7 pamelius in cypr. euseb. vbi supra . aug. 〈◊〉 . 167. dist. 21. ca. quamuis . sext ● . ab. arbitris . gloss . ca. de cōstit . licet . antoninus par . 3 sum . ca. si rom. dist . 19. dict . 17. c. synodum . dict . 〈◊〉 . ca. dec●etales 11. q. 3. c. quatuor . dict . 19. c. sic. omnes dist. 19. c. sic omnes . hostie c. quando . de trans . dist. 20. ● decret● . demosth. augusti● . idē ep . ●19 mat. 13. ●8 . act 15. theod. lib. 1. c. ● . ●phes . 6. ar●ic ● . ioh. ● . 3● phil. 3. 16 theop●●bid mat. 24. 〈◊〉 . basil. lib. 1. contr . eun. iohn . 2. theod. li. ● . aug. co●● . maxim. li 3. iohn . 6. 63. ● . cor. 5. 7. damas. li● 〈◊〉 . 18. dist. 38. c. sicut . augstin . epist. 11● . contr. crel . lib. ● . 1 ▪ pet. 1. 〈◊〉 . 1. cor. 2. 11 ier. in gai. 1 gellin● lib. 14. c ● can. lib. 1. ● . heb. 1. ● . heb. 12. 5. deut. 17. chry●ost . homi● . 13. 〈◊〉 gen. theophil in iohn . 10. august . in ● . iohn . ● . o●id . 1. cor. 2. 51 1. iohn . ● 20. 27. 1. ioh. 2. ●● aqui. ibi● . psal. 119. ● . pet. 1. august . de bap. contr . don. lib. 2. chryso●t . ● cor. aqui● . psa. 119. 18 bern● in cāt. math 7 plut. de . curio● . vide m●●dinam . & canur● . 1. cor. 3. pliny 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 . phil. 3. 1● . gal. 5. 13. eph 4. 〈…〉 〈◊〉 in psal. ●●3 . august . de 〈◊〉 . 3. act. 2. 24. math. 13. 1. cor. 4. ●● deut. 4. 6. tertull. de 〈…〉 e●s●bi . li. 4. 〈…〉 〈◊〉 lib. de trinit . ruffin . in apologia originis . 〈◊〉 hilar. ad constant. o●igen . 〈◊〉 ezech. 〈…〉 . iden● in rom. 10. aristot. natal , c●●●es . iudg. 7. hilar. lib. ● . de trin●● . origen . in luc. hila●ius de synodis . eph 4. 14. t●rtu●l . de praeser . c. 17. 2. pet. 3. 16. math 9. ruffin in apolog. 〈◊〉 . hi●ari . 〈◊〉 supra idem lib. 1 de ●●imit . 〈…〉 theoderet lib. 1. c. 7. seneca de benef . psal. 69 plut. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cap. 〈◊〉 aug. contr . maxim. l 3 〈◊〉 . 6. esa. 1●●2 ioh. ● . 36. luc. 24 bern. in cant. canus lib. 2. cap. 8 1. cor. 1● 1. ioh. 4. 1 〈◊〉 rom. 9 apoc. 3 math. 7 luc. 1● . 32 luc. 13 24. horat. epis . lib. 1. act. 19. 27 theodor. lib. ● . c. 16 luc. 8. 45 august in euang. plin. n●t . hist. liui●s . august . hilarius ad constant. ●sa . 36. 6 gen. ● . hilar. vbi supra . a 1. cor. ● . s●et . calig . ● . tim. 4. ● . ioh. 1 heb. 9 ephes. ● synes . epist. ad anastas . hom. ody● . med. 〈…〉 art. 2 , & 3 aug. contr . max. lib. 3 phil ● 12 mich. 6. ● rom. 5. 1 ● . ioh. 3. ● . lib. 3. de iustifie . c. 1. ibid. c. 1● 2. cor. 7. ● bern. serm . 〈◊〉 . in cant. idē ep . 107 apoca. 3. 14 rom. 8. 16. aquin. in ephes. 1 luc. 10. 42. august . de verb. dom . a see at large in bern. epist. 107. & serm . in cant. 68. 69 psal. 32. ●● ● . tim. 1. 15 rom. 13 gal. ● . 20 heb. ●1 . 1 ● . ioh. 3. ● iob. 14. 16. iob. 9. 28 1. cor. 2. 3 gal. 1. 12. rom. 1. 16 gal. ● . 1● ● . cor. 7. 15 ti●tleman ●bide● . phil. 2. phil 2. ve . ● 12 15 16 tittleman ibidem . seneca . epi. lib. 1. math. 25. 〈…〉 notes for div a04376-e27210 gellius lib. 4. cap. 1. a dialogue between a popish priest, and an english protestant. wherein the principal points and arguments of both religions are truly proposed, and fully examined. / by matthew poole, author of synopsis criticorum. poole, matthew, 1624-1679. 1667 approx. 323 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 127 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a55374 wing p2828 estc r40270 20844059 ocm 20844059 109465 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a55374) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 109465) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2037:5) a dialogue between a popish priest, and an english protestant. wherein the principal points and arguments of both religions are truly proposed, and fully examined. / by matthew poole, author of synopsis criticorum. poole, matthew, 1624-1679. the last edition corrected and amended. [15], 234, [5] p. printed by t.m. for tho. passinger, and are to be sold by john williamson ..., london, : 1672. handwritten index, p. [5] at end. misidentified on umi microfilm as wing p2830. reproduction of original in bodleian library. includes bibliographical references. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng catholic church -controversial literature. protestantism -apologetic works. 2003-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-09 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-10 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2003-10 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a dialogue between a popish priest and an english protestant . wherein the principal points and arguments of both religions are truly proposed and fully examined . by matthew poole minister of the gospel . the last edition corrected and amended . london : printed by e. cotes , and are to be sold by s. tompson at the bishops-head in duck lane , 1667. to the reader . the variety and differences of religion , between protestant and papist , distract the minds and trouble the hearts of all that have any sense of religious concernments . in this distraction every serious man that hath any care of his souls health , cannot choose but heartily desire and seek for resolution : to obtain this , there can be no better way than to understand and examine the pretensions and grounds of both religions : in order to this , i have endeavoured faithfully to represent , and duly to weigh them in the following discourse . wherein though i have not discussed all the points in controversie between us and them , yet i have selected the most material , and have discoursed of most , if not all , their weighty and plausible arguments against the protestant religion . and this , i may say , and no knowing papist , i think , will deny it ; all the other points will follow the fate of those which are here examined , and live or die with them . i know it will be pretended , that i have managed the work with partiality and deceit , and that i make the papist speak what i please , not what they think . this must be said of course , else the romanists , lose their old wont : nor shall i , at all think it strange , if in stead of solid answers , they return calumnies : their cause requires it ; and no wonder if they that want truth in their religion , make lies their refuge . to silence all clamours , and satisfie all jealousies will be impossible , i shall never attempt it . but for satisfaction of such as are rational and ingenuous , i shall give this following account . 1. god is my witness , that i did diligently endeavour to pick out the strongest arguments i could find in their best authors in each point ; nor have i willingly declined any thing of moment in the questions here debated : if any papist think otherwise , let him produce their greater strength , and i hope he shall find it fairly examined . 2. the several discourses , arguments and answers which i put into the papists mouth ; are such as were first taken out of their mouths , and so it is but a piece of iustice and restitution to return them thither . they are generally such as are either known to be their opinions , and by themselves owned , or else delivered in the sense , and very oft in the words , of their most approved authors , whom i have quoted in the margent : but here i expect the old clamour of false quotations , wherein they have been so often taken tardy , that they must now look for the common infelicity of — not to be believed if they should chance to stumble upon truth . all the relief i desire in that case is , that the reader who is able to do it , would examine them with his own eyes , and that will be my best justification . i shall detain thee no longer , but commend thee to the good spirit of truth to enable thee to discern between good and evil . to the people of the romish church . the controversies between your church and ours , are by gods blessing upon the endeavours of his ministers , brought to this pass , that i am perswaded there is nothing wanting to the conviction of divers of you , but a free and diligent perusal of theri books , without prejudice and partiality : this your priests knowing , it is their great design to keep you from looking into them ; and to that end , to possess you with this principle , that you need not trouble your selves to inquire into books , you are safe enough , so long you believe as the church believes , and follow the guidance of your priests and fathers : if this be an errour , it is a dangerous one , and may prove damnable ; that it is so , and that it will prove but a broken reed , when you lean upon it , i hope you will see there is reason to believe , if you will but do your souls that justice , not prodigally to cast them away upon blind and wilful mistakes , and take the pains to read these ensuing lines . 1. if your church be not infallible , then this principle is rotten ; howsoever , you cannot with safety or discretion venture your souls on it , till you have examined at least this one point of the churches infallibility : do but examine that , and if you do not stifle both reason and conscience , you will see it is a meer cheat . 2. if the church ( that is , a pope with a council ) were infallible ( which is all that your great champions plead for ) yet all confess , that your particular priests ( upon whose conduct you hazard your eternal wel-fare ) are fallible and subject to mistakes . it is most certain that divers of your priests and confessors lead you into many ( and some ●f them damnable ) errours . thousands of ●our priests and learned doctors do charge the iesuits with poysoning the souls of the people with divers pestilent and damnable errours , such as these : that a man may venture his soul upon any probable opinion , and that is probable , which but one of their learned doctors affirm . that a private man may kill his enemy to maintain his honour , though not by way of revenge . that a priest may absolve even old and inveterate sinners , and such as he believes incorrigible . that affliction or sorrow for sin , arising meerly from fear of punishments , is sufficient for salvation : and , that the affection of loving god is not absolutely necessary to salvation . all these and many more are clearly proved out of their own words and writings in the provincial letters , otherwise called , the mystery of iesuitisme : see the latine edition set forth and defended by wendrockius . now if the iesuits may , and do , so damnably deceive those thousands of you that depend upon their counsel and conduct , why may not other orders deceive you in other things ? or what is there that can give you any reasonable security ? is it their learning , prudence , pretended devotion , or honesty , or any other such like quality ? why , divers of the iesuits have given as plausible testimony of those things ( so far as men can judge ) as most of the other orders ; or will you say , all other orders are infallible , the iesuits only excepted ? 3. nothing can be more evident ( if the bible be the word of god ) than that the errour or misguidance of the priest , will not excuse the sin of the people . to satisfie you in this , i beseech you consider these few reasons . 1. the scripture condemns , and god severely punished those people , which did follow the errours of their priests . this did not excuse the jews in aarons time , that they were misled by aaron , exod. 32. nor those in the times of the wicked kings of israel and judah , that their priests did universally deceive them , and poor elijah , and so michaiah , were left alone ; nor those in malachy's daies , that the priests caused them to stumble at the law , malac , 2. 8. nor the crucifiers of christ , that they obeyed the decrees of their priests and rulers . i list not to repeat what i have said elsewhere : therefore read nullity of romish faith ch . 2. sect . 12. and will you yet stumble at the same stone ! 2. the people will not be excused by their priests misguidance , because they neglect their duty . if indeed there were no duty incumbent upon the people but to believe what your priests say , and do what they require , then your church speaks reason . but that none but a mad man will say . there are several duties required of the people , no less than of the priests ; the law of god was not given only to the priests , but to all the people ; god publisheth this law in the hearing of all the people , and speaks in the singular number to every one of the people , thou shalt do or forbear this or that ; and the curse is threatned to the people , deut. 27. 26. cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them , and all the people shall say amen . which the apostle repeats , gal. 3. 10. cursed is every one , not priests only , but the people too , that continueth not in all things which are written in this book of the law to do them . if the priests then should have taught the israelites ( as your priests now teach you ) thou shalt worship a graven image , when god saith , thou shalt not worship a graven image : can any serious man think this would have freed them from that curse ; and that it was safer for them to obey the command of men than of god ? o the impudence of your priests that dare say so ! o the blockishness of those people that will believe them when they say so ! your pope may well contend with us , for it seems your priests will contest with god for supremacy : when the priests and prophets in isaiahs daies were generally corrupt , the people are not advised to believe all that they taught , and to obey all that they decreed ( which is the strain of your church ) but are commanded immediately to go to the law and to the testimony , and if any speak not according to them , they are to be rejected , because there is no light in them , isa. 8. 20. even people are required not to believe every spirit , but to try the spirits , 1 john 4. 1. nor did the apostles exempt themselves and their doctrines from this tryal , but allowed , commended , and required it in the people . the beraeans are not reproved and censured ( as they would certainly be , that should tread in their steps at rome ) but commended for examining the doctrine of s. paul by the scripture , acts 17. 11. and the same apostle allows the galatians , not only to try his doctrines , whether they were agreeable to what they had received ; but in case they find them contrary , he gives them commission to censure and anathemize him , gal. 1. 8 , 9. and he bespeaks the corinthians in this language , i speak to wise men , judge you what i say , 1 cor. 10. 15. and he commands the thessalonians to prove all things ( without exception ) as well as to hold fast that which is good , 1 thess. 5. 21. consider these things , i beseech you , and do not wilfully cast away your precious souls upon trifles . god hath given the scripture as a rule to try things by ( and this was written for the ignorant , and the people , as well as the learned , and the priests , john 20. 31. ) he hath given people reason to try things with , if you will hide these talents in a napkin , at your peril be it . the prince was commanded to read and meditate in the book of the law , that he might observe to do all that is written therein , iosh. 1. 8. can you seriously think that if the corrupt priests had agreed to teach him to do contrary to all that was written therein , that this would have excused him before god ? then that precept was both superfluous and dangerous ; and if you do not think so , ( as you must needs if you have any conscience ) then neither will it excuse your people ; for according to the doctrine of your church , prince and people are alike in this , both tied to believe as your church believes . god commands every christian to prove his own work ; and tells us , that every man shall bear his own burden , gal. 6. 4 , 5. and , that every man shall give an account of himself to god , rom. 14. 12. ( do not think your priests account shall serve turn ) and all the christian people of corinth are commanded to examine themselves whether they be in the faith , 2 cor. 13. 5. and dare you still live in the wilful breach of all these commands , and blindly give up your souls ▪ and consciences by an implicite faith , to the conduct of your priests to lead them whether they please ? 3. the scripture hath given you full warning of your danger . read but two places , ezek , 33. 8. ( where god assures us , that the wicked shall die in his iniquity , though he perished through the watchmans fault ) and matth. 15. 14. ( where christ confutes this very opinion of yours , which was also the opinion of the jews , that they were safe enough while they folowed their priests decrees and counsels : and tells them . if the blind lead the blind , both shall fall into the ditch ) and doubt of this , if you can or dare . in a word , if this senceless doctrine were true , not only men would have dominion over our faith , contrary to express scripture ; ( be not ye called masters , for one is your master , even christ , matth. 23. 10. not that we have dominion over your faith , said the great apostle ) but also christ should lose his dominion , and have no authority in his church , but as your priests please ; and it seems he shall not have this favour from you , to continue in his office quamdiu bene se gesserit , but quamdiu vobis placuerit ; and christs power is apparently limited to your interpretation ; but the power of your church is absolute and unlimited , and the people obliged to believe them , quamcunque sententiam tulerint , whatsoever they shall decree , as gretser expresseth it . if this be not to make the word and authority of god and christ void , through your traditions , i know not what is . i will trouble you no further . if you be capable of counsel , take warning , and suffer not your selves to be lead hoodwinckt to hell , to serve a carnal interest of some among you ; but quit your selves like men , and by the grossness of this delusion , learn to suspect the rest ; and with humble and honest hearts , read what is here proposed to you for your souls good , and god give you light . let my soul prosper no otherwise than i heartily wish the good and salvation of you all ; but if you will still persist in your blindness , and add further obstinacy to your errours , i shall comfort my self in this , that i have delivered my own soul , your blood be upon your own head , for there it will assuredly fall , and not upon the priests only . mr. poole's dialogue . a dialogue between a popish priest and an english protestant . pop. dear friend i am glad to meet with you after so long a separation ; for i remember we were brought up at the same school , and i rejoyce in the opportunity of renewing our acquaintance , i desire a little discourse with you , to understand how it is with you in point of religion . prot. i am of the protestant reformed religion . pop. i am heartily sorry for it in regard of our old intimacy ; but if you will give me leave , i do not question , but in a very little time to give you such reasons as will force you to leave those damnable errors , and to return to your antient mother the church of rome . prot. with a very good will shall i yield my self to your instruction , i desire nothing more than true information ; i know i have a soul to save , which is of infinite worth , and i am not fond of damnation ; therefore if you give me better grounds than i have , you shall not finde me obstinate : but this i must tell you , you must not put me off with fancies and bare affirmations ; but i shall expect solid proof of what you say from scripture or reason , and now speak what you please . pop. first , my dear friend , i must intreat you to consider that which your own ministers teach you , to wit , that there is no salvation to be had out of the true catholick church , which is the church of rome . prot. that none is saved out of the true catholick church , i grant , ( for the catholick church includes all believers in the world ) but a man may be saved that is no member of the roman , nor of any particular church ; for although you ingross to your selves the name of the catholick church , nothing is more clear , than that the church of rome is at best but a part of the catholick church , and that a very unsound one too ; and there is a false church ( in which salvation cannot ordinarily be had ) as well as a true church ( out of which it cannot ordinarily be had ) and i have heard more to prove yours to be this false church , than i am able to answer , or you either , as i suppose : therefore this being only a general ( and so an unconcluding ) argument , i desire you to come closer to the point . pop. then i intreat you to consider the danger of your way , and the safety of ours ; since all your ministers confess , that a roman catholick may be saved in his religion ; but all our church unanimously declare , that you are damned if you live and dye in your religion . prot. you call us schismaticks ; but by this argument you prove your selves to be so : for i have oft heard it , that in the very same manner those infamous schismaticks , the donatists , argued against st. austin and the catholick church , that he confessed salvation was to be had in their churches , which they affirmed was not to be had in the catholick church ; and this very thing was by st. austin , and the church of that age , condemned as their great schismatical principle . but let that pass . to come to your argument : remember the condition i made with you , that you do not put me off with fancies and bare affirmations , for i expect you shall make good every word you say . now here i find you under a great mistake , and though i have heard it most confidently delivered by divers of your brethren , yet you must give me leave to believe my own eyes and ears : i read it in divers books of our learned english divines , and i have heard it from divers very able scholars and ministers , that popery in these times and places of light , is to those that may see that light and will not , not only dangerous , but damnable ; nor do i pin my faith upon their sleeves , but they have given me not meer affirmations as you do , but such arguments as i confess i cannot answer : yet if you can , i shall be ready to hearken to you . pop. it is easie to say in general , that our religion is dangerous or damnable , but i beseech you shew me wherein ; which are those doctrines and practices of ours wherein the danger lies ? prot. i will instance in few of many particulars . first , that idolatry is a damnable sin , your own authors grant , and scripture expresly affirms , idolaters shall not inherit the kingdom of god , 1 cor. 6. 9 , 10. and rev. 21. 8. & 22. 15. and that your church is guilty of idolatry , especially in the worship of images , and of the host , or consecrated bread in the sacrament , is the doctrine of all protestant churches , and i shall prove it before you and i have done . secondly , that the worshippers of the babylonish beast , rev. 13. and 14. are in a damnable condition , you all grant , and it is affirmed by god himself , rev. 14. 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. and that rome is that babylon , the most and learnedest of your doctors agree , only some of them pretend it is rome heathen as it was ; and others , that it is rome iewish , as it shall be in the end of the world ; both which conceits are fully refuted by divers of our authors . thirdly , that it is highly dangerous to trust in man , and to trust in our own righteousness , sufficiently appears from ier. 17. 5. cursed is he that trusteth in man ; and from that dreadful example of the iews , who going about to establish their own righteousness , did not submit to ( and therefore lost the benefit of ) the righteousness of faith , rom. 10. 3. and that you are guilty of this sin , in trusting to saints and to your own merits , shall appear in the following discourse . fourthly , it is dangerous to add to the word of god ; and this your church is not only deeply guilty of , in adding their traditions ( * to be received with equal reverence to the holy scriptures ) but obligeth all its members to justifie those additions , and thereby intitle them to the same plagues with themselves . fifthly , ( to name no more ) it is highly dangerous to break any of gods commands , and to teach men so , and to make the word of god of none effect by humane traditions , we know what woes christ pronounceth against the pharisees for these things . and this your church is deeply guilty of , as in many other particulars , so most eminently in this , that you profess no men are obliged to receive the scriptures as the word of god , nor to believe any thing in it , but for the testimony of your church † by this it apears , that you have no reason to boast of the safeness of your way . and as for your threats of damnation to all that do not submit themselves to your church and pope , however they may terrifie silly people ; yet toke it from me , to prudent men it is rather an argument of the falseness of your religion . for such will be apt to conclude , that your faith is not right , because your uncharitableness is so notorious , and monstrous , in condemning all the world besides your selves , and that too upon such frivolous pretences . this argument therefore of yours hath little weight . let me hear what further you have to say against our religion . pop. then consider seriously of this , that your church confesses , that she is fallible , and that you have no infallible iudge among you , whereby controversies may be ended ; but our church is infallible . prot. i confess now you speak home ; make this good , that it is necessary the church should be infallible , and that yours is so , and i shall ease you of the trouble of further arguments : but i must ask you two questions : 1. what is the meaning of this proposition ? and , 2. how you will prove it ? for the first , i ask you how you understand it ? what is this church which you tell me is infallible ? are you agreed among your selves in that point ? to tell me of an infallible judge , and not to give me infallible assurance who this judge is , is to deceive me with vain words , and will no more end controversies than to tell me there is an infallible judge in heaven : for where i pray you shall i finde your infallible judge ? now i am in quest of him , i intreat your counsel and direction . tell me then , is it the body of your church , and multitude of catholicks that is your infalible judge ? do you make your people the judge of controversies ? pop. no , for we all agreed the government of the church is monarchical . prot. are you then agreed that the pope alone is the infallible judge ? speak the truth , and the whole truth , and nothing but the truth . pop. i will deal truly with you , we are not all agreed in that point , the french catholicks generally deny it , and divers of our eminent doctors and writers , as ( bellarmin confesses * ) and among the rest a pope , adrian by name , denies it , and even they that seem to be better minded towards the pope , acknowledge that it is no heresie to deny this , and that divers good catholicks deny it , and that it is but a disputable point * . prot. is it then a general council that is infallible ? are you agreed in that ? deal truly and clearly with me . pop. then i must confess we are not all agreed in that neither : for the pope will deny this , and all the iesuites and italian catholicks , and others , who ascribe this infallibility to the pope only . prot. who then is this infallible judge ? pop. the pope and a general council agreeing together . prot. is there then at this time any general council at rome , or elsewhere , which doth agree with the pope ? pop. no , but though there be no council now in their persons , yet there is in their writings , and the pope agreeing with them is infallible . prot. but i have been told that all your doctors agree in this , that no writing can be a judge of controversies : if you deny this , i should think the writing of god ( which you all acknowledge the scripture to be ) might challenge this priviledge as well as the writings of any council or men . you all plead for the absolute necessity of a living infallible judge . pop. though catholicks are divided in the manner of expression , yet all are agreed in this general proposition , that our church is infallible . prot. call you this only a difference in manner of expression , for one to say the pope is infallible , another to say he is fallible ? for some of you to affirm the infallibility of councils , others utterly to deny it ? i beseech you remember , i am inquiring after particulars ( and therefore do not put me off with deceitful generals ) who , and where is the man or men , to whom i must go to be infallibly resolved in all controversies ? for if the king should tell his people he hath appointed a judge to end all their civil controversies , this would be to no purpose , unless he should tell who that judge is , so that till i hear you are agreed in this particular , my doubts and perplexities must needs remain . and then for the next point : i ask you , how you prove this infallibility which you pretend to , i must tell you since it is the very foundation of your faith , i expect very clear and undeniable proofs , i pray you bring me two or three of your strongest arguments . pop. in this you speak reason , and i shall comply with your desires , i shall give you two or three plain and evident scriptures to prove it . 1. that of mat. 16. 18. hence i thus argue , the church is said to be built upon st. peter , he is the rock spoken of ; and this rock doth together with s. peter include his successours , and the church built upon this rock , ( that is united to , and built upon the pope ) is infallible , for it is said , the gates of hell shall not prevail against it . prot. not one of all these things is true . 1. it is more probable that not peter's person , but his doctrine or his confession concerning christ , ( which now he made ) is the rock upon which the church is built ; scripture is its own best interpreter : it is not peter , but christ which is the foundation of the church , as he is called , isa. 28. 16. compared with 1 pet. 2. 6 , 7 , 8. it is expresly , 1 cor. 3. 11. other foundation can no man lay but that that is laid , which is iesus christ ; and this is the more considerable , because , he speaks against those that made the apostles foundations , one saying , i am of paul , another , i of apollos , i of cephas . and if this were spoken of peter , no more is said of him here , than is said of all the prophets and apostles , ephes. 2. 20. ye are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets — and besides , if by this text peter had been made supreme and infallible head of the church , and judge of all controversies , no man in his wits can believe that st. paul would have treated him so irreverently ( to speak the least ) as he doth galat. 2. ( which is more considerable , because then christ was dead , and peter in the actual exercise of his headship and government , and if we may believe you , publickly and universally owned for such ) that he would have equalled himself with him as he doth , verse 7. the gospel of the vncircumcision was committed to me , as the gospel of the circumcision to peter : and that he would have spoken promiscuously of iames , cephas and iohn , that they all seemed to be pillars , ver. 9. and not a word of peters being the rock and foundation ; and that he would have withstood st. peter to his face , as he did , verse 11. 2. if this were meant of peter ; yet this is nothing to his successours . you must first prove that st. peter had a successour in that supposed universal headship , which will be very hard to perswade any understanding man , for , 1. that authority which the apostles had over all churches , was peculiar to them , and died with them : we see god did not think it necessary to leave a successour to moses , ( in his full and absolute authority ) no more was it necessary to leave any after peter and the apostles : and the reason is the same , because the work of law-giving was finish'd , and those that came after were tyed to the execution of their laws . 2. besides , if peter did leave a successour , what prudent man can believe , that he would not have left some notice , thereof to the world in one of his epistles ? i find he saith , i will endeavour that you may be able after my decease , to have these things in remembrance , 2 pet. 1. 15. how easie had it been to have added , to that end i leave a successour , whom you must hear in all things ? i find moses was very careful to leave a successour , and so was elias , and david , and christ ( as my father sent me , so send i you ) : was peter the only careless person , that would not be at the expence of a word to prevent all those heresies , schisms , and contentions which were even then broached , and most likely to increase after the death of the apostles in the christian world ? 3. if any did succeed st. peter in his head-ship , one would think it should have been one of the surviving apostles , especially st. iohn , who lived above 20 years after him ; for who can believe ( that regards what he believes ) that linus or clemens who is said to be st. peters successour , should be superiour to st. iohn ; yet the foundation of all your religion is built upon this nonsensical opinion : and if this priviledge did belong not only to peter , but some of his successours ; yet to say , it belongs to all following popes ( divers of which are acknowledged to be apostatical and most wicked wretches ) and that such monsters as were the true slaves of the devil , and brands of hell , should be the foundations of the church , by whom the church was to be secured from the gates of hell , will not find belief with serious men till east and west meet together : and besides , when our divines say , the pope is antichrist , and the man of sin ; you use to answer , that these expressions , the antichrist , and the man of sin , must needs point at a particular man , and not a whole order of men ; which if it be true , the expression there used of this rock ( especially being so particularly levell'd at peter , as you will needs have it ) cannot with any colour be thought to mean a succession of many hundreds of persons . and sure i am , whatever the text speaks of peter , it speaks not one word of peters successours , and therefore it is as easie for me to deny it , as you to affirm it . 3. whatever this promise or priviledge is , it belongs no more to the church of rome , than to the church of england , the name of one is heer as clear as the other ; it is a general promise extending to the church at all times and places , signifying , that god will have and maintain a church to the end of the world : and if this place concerns only those that are built upon st. peter , you grant the church of england once was , as the church of rome now is , built upon him too , when it was subject to the pope . and if their being built upon st. peter did not secure them from fallibility and apostacy ( as you say it did not ) then consequently the building of the church of rome upon st. peter did not make them infallible , but they might ( as we say and prove they did ) fall away . and certainly one of these two things must be granted , either that every church which did once adhere to peter , or the pope , are secured by this text from falling away ; or else , that notwithstanding this promise , every church that now is subject to the pope may fall away from him , and so the pope may be a head without a body , a shepherd without so much as one sheep : for if this text did prove what they desire , that all that do adhere to the pope , whilst they do so , are infallible ; yet it doth not prove , that they all shall constantly adhere to him ( which is quite another thing . ) 4. if this promise and priviledge did belong to any particular church , and to yours ( in a special manner ) yet it doth not prove your infallibility : this place concerns doctrines no more than manners , and secures your church no more against damnable heresies , than against damnable practices , since the gates of hell prevail by one as well as by the other , and since you acknowledge that peters successours have lived and died in damnable sins , they might as well die in damnable heresies : besides , if this text did prove the popes supremacy , yet here is not one word concerning his infallibility , which is quite another thing . 5. if this text did prove any infallibility , it doth not prove the popes infallibility ( which you alledge this text for ) but the infallibility of the church which is built upon it . pop. but that church is infallible because they adhere to the rock , viz. the pope who therefore must needs be more infallible . prot. then it seems the foundation of all your infallibility is in the pope , as peters successour , whom multitudes of your own learned and approved doctors acknowledge to be fallible . i have heard you all confess , that your popes may erre in manners and practice . is it so ? pop. yes . prot. then whatsoever he thinks , he may speak lyes , and deceive the world , in telling them he is infallible ; and surely if a man will deceive for any thing , he will do it for such an empire as the pope holds : but i have heard also your popes may erre in matters of fact. pop. that we do all agree in . prot. then he may mistake and erre in these questions , whether peter left a successour ? and , whether the bishop of rome be the person ? and , whether there hath been that uninterrupted succession in the papal chair , which you pretend to be necessary , which must be infallibly certain , or else the pope holds his authority only upon courtesie ; so this place will not stand you in much stead . let me hear if you have any better argument . pop. there is another place , which if you were not an obstinate sort of men , would satisfie you all , and that is , 1 tim. 3. 15. where the church is called , the pillar and ground of truth , and therefore is infallible . prot. let me first ask you , what church is there spoken of , which you say is infallible ? is it the church of rome ? was timothy bishop of rome or no ? pop. no , he was bishop of ephesus : but why do you ask that question ? prot. this place apparently speaks of that church , in , and over which timothy was set : so if it speak of any particular church , it must be that of ephesus ( which you confess was fallible ) not that of rome ; or if it speak of the universal church , that might be infallible , though the pope and all the church of rome ( truly so called ) should fail and perish . tell me , i beseech you , in particular , what is that church , which from this and other places , you conclude to be infallible ? pop. it is the pope with the general council , as i have told you . prot. then i pray you make sense of the verse ; for to me it is meer non-sense — timothy is here advised to behave himself rightly in the house of god , which is the church of god , and the pillar and ground of truth : according to your opinion , this is the sense of it , that thou mightest know how to behave thy self in the pope and a general council . i pray you tell me truly , was there a general council then sitting . pop. no : there was no general council from that time , till two or three hundred years after , when the councill of nice was assembled . prot. then it seems to me a most unreasonable thing to say , that paul directs timothy how to behave himself in a general council ( which was not then in being , nor like to be ) and that he doth not direct him how to behave himself in that body , the church in which he then resided and ruled . besides , i pray you , where is the pope or a council called the house of god ? if they have any thing to do there , they are the governours , the stewards , the officers of the house , but are never called the house of god , but this name is alwayes ascribed to the multitude of believers and professors , as heb. 2. 5 , 6. where moses ( whose place in the church the pope pretends to ) is not the house , but the servant , the officer of it ; so heb. 10. 21. having an high-priest over the house of god ; so 1 pet. 2. 5. ye as lively stones are built up as a spiritual house : and if you know any one place where it is otherwise used , i pray speak ; if not ( as by your silence i see you do not ) all understanding men will conclude that neither pope nor council are concerned in this priviledge . but besides , let me further ask you , can you give me assurance that these words which is the ground and pillar of truth , imply infallibility ? pop. it is true , the words are figurative and metaphorical , but that is the meaning of them . prot. my old friend , can you advise me to venture my salvation upon a metaphor ? or that that is the true and only sense of the words ? prove it , and i am your prisoner ; but it seemeth to me far otherwise : god saith to ieremy , i have made thee an iron pillar , jer. 1. 18. was ieremy therefore infallible ? peradventure , that was too mean a metal to amount to infallibility ; but your church is a brazen pillar , and so it seems by the impudence of your assertions . i read in eusebius , * that the saints of vienna and lyons , called attalus the martyr , a pillar and ground of the truth , yet you will not allow him to be infallible ; by which and divers other passages it is sufficiently evident , that a pillar in the church is no more than a man that is well rooted and grounded and strong in the faith , as he is a reed that is tossed to and fro with every winde of doctrine ; let me therefore hear if you have any better arguments . pop. then john 16. 3. is an express promise , when the spirit of truth is come , he will guide you into all truth , and therefore our chuch is infallible . prot. tell me i pray you , is not this promise made to the apostles only ? if so , what is that to you ? if you say otherwise , how do you make it appear that it concerns their successours ? pop. that appears by comparing another place with it , john 14. 16. the comforter shall abide with you for ever , not surely in their persons ; for , they were to die in a little time , but in their successours . prot. i expected a place which had said at the least , that the spirit should lead them into all truth for ever ; but this is quite another thing ; you dare not say , that every one with whom the comforter abides is infallible ; but to forgive you this great mistake : tell me truly , is it then your opinion , that all the successors of each of the apostles , viz. all bishops , or all ministers are infallible ? pop. no , in no wise , for it is only s. peter's successours , or the pope , who is infallible , and others only so far as they depend upon him and cleave to him . prot. then this text is not for your turn ; for if it do extend to the apostles successors , it extends either to all or none ; for sure i am , this text makes no difference : besides , how do you prove that these words of the spirits leading into all truth , if they do reach further than the apostles , do imply infallibility . then all believers are infallible , for they are all led by the spirit , rom. 8. 14. pop. true , but here they are said to be led into all truth . prot. you know the words all and every are often taken in a limited sense , as when the gospel is to be preached to every creature , mark 16. 15. and you may as well conclude the omnisciency of all believers , from 1 iohn 2. 20. you know all things ; and v. 27. the anointing teacheth you all things , as the infallibility of your popes or councils from that phrase : and one answer serves for both places , viz. that they speak of all necessary truths . but why do i hear nothing of luke 22. 31. simon , simon , satan hath desired to winnow you , but i have prayed that thy faith fail not . i have heard that bellarmine useth this argnment , but i confess , i thought they abused him . pop. it is true , he doth use it , and it is a solid one , though you scorn it . prot. how do you know that it is meant of all peter's successours ? for there is not one word of them here . but if i grant these were meant , do you then all believe that peter's successours are infallible ? pop. i did before acknowledge that we are divided in that point . prot. can you think to convince me with that argument that does not satisfie your own brethren ? moreover , tell me , i pray you , what was the faith of peter which was struck at by the devil , and pray'd for by christ ? pop. the event shews that ; for the devil tempted him , and prevailed with him to deny his master . prot. did peter deny christ doctrinally , and fall into the damnable error of disbelieving christ to be the messias , or was it only an error or miscarriage of his tongue , which spoke against his conscience and judgment ? pop. far be it from me , to say that peter did so damnably erre in his judgment , i know no catholick who saith so ; all do all agree that it was only an error of his tongue and conversation , and practical denial of christ. prot. very well : hence then i gather , that christ prayed for his practical , not for his doctrinal faith , and that his grace of faith might not be utterly lost by his fall : so that , if this text and prayer reach to your popes , it should rather secure them from damnable apostacies in practice ( which you confess many of them fell into and died in ) then from heresies ( of which this text speaks not at all . ) but have you no other arguments ? pop. yes , there is one more , which were sufficient if there were no other , and that is from gods providence ; it is unbecoming the wisdom of god to leave his church without a guide , or infallible iudge , by which means there would be no end of controversies : and since you do not pretend to have any such in your church , it must be in ours , or else there is none in the world . prot. i had thought you would have only taught me , but now it seems you will teach god how to govern the world. it should seem to me , that god was not of your mind ; he did not think fit to end all controversies , but to permit that there should be heresies , 1 cor. 11. 19. and if god in his wisdom thought an infallible judge necessary , certainly that same wisdom would have named the place , person , or persons , where people should have found this infallibility . was it ever known , since the beginning of the world , that any prince constituted judges in his kingdom , not so much as giving notice to his people who they were , to whom they must resort for justice ? this god hath not done ; for you do not pretend a particular place which settles this infallible judge at rome , but only some general and fallacious arguments , as i have proved ; and besides , it is so far from being evident , that your selves are not agreed about it : but some seek for this infallible judgement in the pope , others in a general council ; and these do as fiercely dispute one against another in this point , as you do against us in many others ; and therefore it is much more rational for me to conclude thus ; god hath not nominated and appointed such an infallible judge in the church ; therefore there is none , and it is not fit there should be one , than sawcily to undertake to be the counsellor of the almighty , and to tell him what is fit to be done , and then conclude that it is done . in short , for controversies about fundamental and necessary things , god hath provided sufficient meanes for the ending of them , having clearly enough determined them in his word for the satisfaction of all that are diligent and humble , and teachable : and for controversies of lesser moment there is no necessity of having them ended , nor would they be much prejudicial to the peace of the world and the church if men would learn to give any allowance for the infirmities of humane nature , and exercise that great and necessary duty of charity and mutual forbearance . but since this is all you can say upon this particular , i pray you , let me hear what other arguments you have against our church and doctrine . pop. then another argument against your church and way , is taken from the novelty of it ; as for our religion , it hath had possession in the world ever since the apostles days ; but you are of yesterday , and know nothing ; your religion is an upstart religion , never heard of in the world till luthers days . prot. first , let me ask you this question , if you had lived in the days of christ , or of the apostles , or of the primitive fathers , what would you have answered for your self ? you know better than i , that this was the very argument , which iews and heathens urged against the christians then ; they charged christ with not walking after the traditions of the elders , matth. 7. 5. and the athenians said to paul , may we know what this new doctrine is ? act. 17. 19. and the pharisees had antiquity on their side , being zealous for the traditions of the fathers , gal. 1. 14. and though it be true , that the apostles had the first antiquity for them , delivering nothing but what for substance was in moses and the prophets , act. 26. 22. ( which also is our case ) yet the immediate and latter antiquity was against them , and for divers ages together these doctrines had been in great measure obscured and unknown . what then would you have answered to a iew or a heathen , objecting this novelty to you ? learn from christ , who when the iews pleaded for the continuance of their old practice in the matter of divorces ; he accounted it sufficient confutation , that from the beginning it was not so , mat. 19. 7. and to all the pretences of the pharisees from antiquity , he opposeth this one thing , search the scriptures , john 5. 39. so you dispute against us with the arguments which the pharisees used against christ , and we answer you as he answered them : besides let me ask you this question , if i could clearly prove to you all the points of our faith , and disprove the points of yours , from the holy scriptures , tell me , would you then acknowledge the truth of the protestant religion , notwithstanding all this pretended novelty ? pop. yes certainly , for we all confess the truth of all that is contained in the holy scriptures . prot. hence then it follows undeniably , that the main thing that you and i must look to in our faith is , that it be agreeable to the holy scriptures ; and if ours be so , ( as i am fully perswaded it is ) and yours the contrary , neither antiquity is any argument for you , nor novelty against us . besides , when you charge our church with novelty , i suppose you mean that our doctrines are new . pop. i do so . prot. then you cannot justly charge us with novelty ; for , 1. you confess the antiquity and verity of most of our fundamental doctrines , and your selves do approve them , only you make additions of your own to them ; you own all the scriptures in our bible , only you add the apocrypha : you acknowledge scripture the rule of faith , only you add tradition : we believe all the articles of the apostles creed ( the * belief whereof the antient fathers thought sufficient to salvation ) . and the doctrine of the four first general councils , as you do also : you own our doctrine of christs satisfaction and justification by christ and faith , only you add your own works and satisfaction : our two sacraments you approve , only you add five more : our doctrine of the two states of men in heaven and hell you own , only you add purgatory : you own christ for your mediatour and prayers to god through him , only you add other mediatours ; our worship of god you own , only you add images . these are the principal points of our religion , and dare you now say that our doctrines are new ? 2. many of your ablest doctors confess , that divers of the peculiar doctrines of your church are new and unknown to the antient fathers ; and it is most evident and undeniable concerning indulgences , purgatory , communion in one kind , worship in a strange tongue , the receiving some of your apocryphal books , transubstantiation ( especially as an article of faith ) the popes infallibility , worship of images , denying of the reading of scriptures to the people and others . and will you yet brag of the antiquity of your religion ? 3. these doctrines wherein we differ from you have been not only proved from scripture , but from the plain testimony of antient fathers , as i think none can doubt that , ( laying aside prejudices , ) shall read what our iewel , and morton , and field , and others have written ; how then can you have the confidence to charge us with novelty ? pop. your church is new in this respect , that although some others before you might own some of your doctrines , there was no church that owned all your doctrines , both positive and negative . prot. that is not necessary . i hope every alteration of doctrines of less moment , doth not make the church new ; if it doth , it is most certain , that your church is new also ; for nothing can be more plain , than that the catholick church , nay even your own church of rome , did not antiently , in former ages hold all these doctrines which now she owns ( as your own greatest authors confess ) this is sufficient , that the church of god , in most former ages , hath owned all our substantial doctrines . but what have you further to say ? pop. it is sufficient against you , that your church is schismatical , and you are all guilty of schism in departing from the true catholick church , which is but one , and that is the roman . prot. i desire to know of you , whether in no case a man may separate from the church whereof he was a member without schism ? pop. yes certainly , if there be sufficient cause for it , for the apostles did separate from the church of the jews after christs death , and the orthodox separated from the arrian churches , and all communion with them , yet none ever charged them with schism . prot. since you mention that instance , i pray you tell me , why they separated from the arrians ? pop. because they held this heresie , that christ was a creature , and not the true god. prot. very well : hence then i conclude , that if your church do hold any heresie , and require all her members to own it too , it is no schism for us to separate from you . pop. that must needs be granted , but this is but a slander of yours , for our church holds no such heresies . prot. your church doth not hold one , but many dangerous errours and heresies , as i do not doubt to manifest e're you and i part : and if you please , we will leave the present argumeut to this issue , if i do not prove your church guilty of heresie , and the imposition of it too , i am content you should charge us with schism ; if i do , you shall mention it no more . pop. you speak reason , let it rest there . prot. besides , methinks , you deal barbarously with us , you drive us out from you by your tyranny , and then you blame us for departing ; as if sarah had call'd hagar a schismatick for going out of abraham's family , from which she forced her : tell me , i pray you , if the case be so that i must depart from the roman church , or from god , what must i do ? pop. the case is plain , you must rather depart from that church . prot. this is the case , if i do not depart from your church , she will force me to live in many mortal sins . i must believe a hundred lies , i must worship the cross and relicks , and images , which god commands me under pain of his highest displeasure not to worship . i must worship the sacrament with divine worship , which i am assured is no other for substance than bread ; for your church is not content to hold these opinions , but she enjoyns these practices to all her members . and if things be thus , i think you will not have the confidence , any more to charge us with schism for obeying the command of god to come out of babylon , since you force all your members to partake with you in your sins , rev. 18. 4. besides all this , let me ask you upon what account you charge us with schism . pop. for departing from the catholick church , and from your mother church of rome , and from the pope , whose subjects once you were . prot. if then i can prove that we are not departed from the catholick church nor from our mother church , nor from any of that subjection we owe to the pope , i hope you will acquit us from schism . pop. that i cannot deny , prot. then this danger is over : for 1. we never did depart from the catholick church , which is ( not your particular roman church , as you most ridiculously call it , but ) the whole multitude of believers and christians in the world : nay , the truth is , you are the schismaticks in renouncing all communion with all the christian churches in the world , except your own , ( which are equal to yours in number ; and many of them far superiour in true piety . ) next , we do not own you for our mother : ierusalem which is above , ( not babylon that is beneath ) is the mother of us all . if we grant now you are a true church , yet you are but a sister church . pop. you forget that you received the gospel from our hands . prot. suppose we did really so ; doth that give you authority over us ? if it did , not rome , but ierusalem should be the mother church , from whom you also received the gospel : this you deny , which shews that you do not believe your own argument to be good . and for the popes universal and infallible authority which he pretends over all christians , i have diligently read your arguments for it ; and i freely profess to you , i find your pretences both from scripture and fathers so weak and frivolous , that i durst commend it to any understanding and disinterested person as a most likely means to convince him of the vanity and falseness of that doctrine ; that he would peruse any of your best authors , and the very sight of the weakness and impertinency of your arguments would abundantly satisfie him of the badness of your cause . pop. you have no ministers , because you have no uninterrupted succession from the apostles , as we have , and therefore you have on church , and therefore no salvation . prot. i observe you take the same course that the adversaries of the gospel ever did , who when they could not reprove the doctrine of christ and his apostles , they quarrelled with them for want of a calling , as you may see , iohn . 1. 25. mat. 21. 23. act. 4. 7. but the good christians of that time took another course , and examined not so much the call of the persons , as the truth of the doctrine , act. 8. 17. it seems to me a secret confession of your guilt , and the error of your doctrine , that you are so careful to turn off mens eyes from that to a far meaner point . but tell me , do you believe that such an uninterrupted succession of ministers from the apostles , is absolutely necessary to the being of a church ? pop. yes verily , or else this argument signifies nothing . prot. how then can you convince me or any other christian , that you have had such an uninterrupted succession in your church ? you must produce , and , it seems , i must read all those many hundreds of great volumes wherein such passages are mentioned . in those you must shew me a perfect catalogue of the several names of those popes , and others who have without interruption succeeded one another ever since the apostles days , and this catalogue must be such that all your authors are agreed in , ( whereas i am told for certain , they differ very much in their reports therein ) and are not so much as agreed among themselves who was peter's next successor , ( whether linus or clemens , or some other person they know not who , ) and those historians that report these things , you must assure me that they were infallible ( which you do not pretend they were ) or else they might mistake the things themselves , and mis-report them to me ; and i have heard and read that there have been divers interruptions and schisms even in your church , one pope set up against another , and each pretending to be the true pope , and disannulling all the acts of the other , and that the christian people were then wofully divided , some cleaving to one , others to another ; but it may be this was a mistake of our ministers ; therefore tell me , was this true or no ? pop. i confess it was true , after the year of christ 1300. there were several popes at the same time , one at rome , another at avignon . prot. and how long did this difference last ? pop. for about 50. years . prot. and is it true that i have heard , that your great baronius reports that for 150 years together the popes were rather apostates than apostolicks , and that they were thrust into the papal chair by the power of harlots , and the violences of the princes of tuscany . pop. i must be true to you , baronius doth say so at the year 897. prot. then never hence forward be so impudent to pretend to such a lawful , clear and uninterrupted succession ; but blush that ever you mentioned it . but besides , i have heard that divers of our first reformed and reforming ministers too , were such as had received ordination from and in the church of rome , and from your bishiops . is it true , or is it not ? pop. i will be ingenuous , our doctors confess it ; but if your ministers , or some of them had a call from our church , yet they were only called to preach , not to overturn the world ( as they did ) and to undertake the reformation of the whole church . prot. you have said enough : if they were called to the ministry , their work and office was to bear witness to the truth ; and therefore to undeceive the world in those many errors and heresies , which you had brought into the church : and ministers are set for the defence of the gospel ; they were therefore bound by their office to edeavour the reformation of the church , and salvation of souls : and as in a great fire ( especially where the publick officers neglect their duty ) every man brings his bucket to quench it ; so , in that miserable estate , into which you had brought the church , ( when the pope and bishops would not do their duty ) it was the duty of every minister to endeavour , and to stir up the kings and magistrates of the world to endeavour a reformation . surely you cannot pretend to an higher priviledge than st. paul , and yet he gives all ministers and christians this leave and charge , that if he himself should bring any other doctrine than what he had delivered , any minister ( though happily such a one as received his calling from him ) or christian might not only forsake him , but judge him accursed . i shall only adde this , our ministers are in a very hard case . i have discoursed with anabaptists , who have reasoned against our ministers as no ministers , because they had their calling from rome ; and now you will make them no ministers , because they had no calling from rome . ( how shall they please you and them too ? ) but what have you further to say ? pop. i have this further ( which is indeed unanswerable ) namely , the horrible divisions of , and in , your churches : here is luther an and calvinist , episcopal and presbyterian , independent and anabaptist , and quaker , and socinian , and familist : and what not ? so that a man that would turn to your church , knows not which to turn to : but our church is one and entire , at perfect unity in it self . prot. i pray you tell me in the first place , are divisions a certain argument to prove any church not to be true ? pop. i cannot say so ; for it is plain , the iewish church in christs time was full of divisions ; there were pharisees , sadduces , essenes , &c. and so was the church of corinth in st. pauls time , while some said , i am of paul , others , i of apollo , others , i of cephas ; and some denyed pauls ministry and apostleship , and some denyed the resurrection . prot. very well , then you may blush to use such an argument : i am told that the old heathens did use this very argument against the primitive christians . pop. it is true , they did . prot. what a shame is it that you are forced to defend your cause with such weapons as were used by the pagans , and wrested out of their hands by the antient fathers ? but besides , you talk of our divisions , i pray you let me ask you , will you allow me to father all the opinions of every papist , i read or talk with , upon your church ? pop. no , in no wise , let our church speak for her self . it is one great fault of your ministers , they catch up every particular opinion of any private doctor , and presently charge our church with it ; though it be such as she hath condemned : whereas they should judge of our church only by her own decrees and councils . prot. very well , i desire only the same justice from you ; do not father upon our church those opinions which she dislikes and abhors : socinians , quakers , &c. are yours rather than ours , and joyn with you in abundance of your doctrins : judge of our churches by their publick confessions ; and there also you would find , that our divisions are generally inconsiderable , being almost all about a form of government , or oft-times , but a manner of expression , and none of them in fundamental points . but since you talk of divisions , let me ask you , are all the members of your church of one mind ? i have been told otherwise : we hear great talk every day of the difference between the jansenists , and the jesuits : and ( if we may believe either of them ) it is a fundamental difference , and such as concerns the very life of religion . i will not trouble you with other things : but are you agreed in that , which is the foundation of your unity , i mean , concerning the supream infallible judge of controversies ? i remember your self told me , that some of you thought it was the pope , and others a council : and i have read , that popish nations , and universities , and doctors , are all together divided about it ; and for the pope , i have heard that bellarmin reckons up the several opinions , and amongst others , that the pope ( if he be without a general council ) may be an heretick , and teach heresie : and this ( saith he ) is the opinion of divers papists , and is determined by a pope himself , adrian the 6th by name , in his question about confirmation : is this true , or is bellarmin bely'd ? pop. it is true , bellarmin doth say so much , * and moreover , that this opinion is not heretical , and is tolerated by the church : but withall he tells you , that he is of another opinion , which is also the common opinion . prot. however , that is sufficient for my purpose . this one difference among you being far more considerable , than all those points wherein protestants differ among themselves : for though they differ in other and lesser things , they all agree in this great means of union , that they own the holy scriptures to be the iudge ( or more properly the rule ) of controversies : and therefore if you please , let this pass , and let me hear what further you have to say against us , or for your selves ? pop. this further i say , the true church must needs remain visible perpetually to the end of the world , such our church hath been , whereas yours was invisible and ( as i said before ) unheard of in the world till luthers dayes . prot. i do not well understand you ; do you think the church must needs be visible at all times to the whole world ? pop. i cannot say so , for she was not always visible to many great and famous parts of the world , as china and america ; it may suffice , that she is visible in some kingdom or part of the world , and that she remains so in all ages . prot. then the church may remain invisible to the greatest part of the world , and so your argument reacheth but a small part of the world : how i pray you must the church be always visible ? pop. there must be in all ages , in some eminent place , a great company of christians visibly united together , in the worship of god in one body and congregation , and governed by their successive pastors under the pope . prot. very well : now i know your mind : and first i deny , that it is necessary for the true church to be so visible in all ages : do you prove it ? pop. that i shall easily prove , from those many and glorious promises made to the church ; the church is called a great mountain , and said to be exalted above other mountains , isa. 2. she is a city set upon a hill that cannot be hid , mat. 5. christ hath promised to be with her to the end of the world , mat. 28. the gates of hell shall not prevail against her ; christs kingdom , is an everlasting kingdom , psal. 88. dan. 2. a few invisible and dispersed christians , cannot make a kingdom . prot. your proofs are impertinent , isa. 2. doth prove that the church under the new testament should be glorious ( that is spiritually ) and prevalent : so it was ( and we trust will be ) but he saith not , the church should always continue in that condition ( which is the point that you should prove ) mat. 5. if it speak of the church , christ only tells us what the church then was , not that it should always remain such ; besides he speaks of their duty , not their condition : and mat. 28. proves that christ will be with his church , but not so as that it shall always be illustrious and united in a great body : this , neither that , nor any of your other texts , prove , nor can you . but suppose that christ had made such a promise that his church should be visible in all ages in a considerable body ; how do you prove that our church hath not been so visible in all ages ? pop. if you affirm that it hath been visible in all ages , you are bound to produce a catalogue of your churches in all successive ages . prot. that is not necessary neither : if i did positively affirm that our church had been visible in such manner in all ages , then i confess i am bound to prove it . but if i leave it in doubt as a thing which ( for ought you or i know ) might be true or false , he that affirms it was not so , is bound to make it good ; and if i deny your proposition , by all laws of dispute , you must prove it : i will shew by an instance how unconvincing your argument is ; there are several prophesies and promises in scripture , the execution whereof is not recorded there , nor any where else ; suppose an atheist comes to you , and offers this argument against the scripture ; if the scripture be true , and the word of god , then all its prophesies and promises were accomplisht ; but there are several prophesies and promises there which never were accomplished within the time appointed , therefore it is not true ; what would you answer ? pop. i would deny this proposition , viz. that there are any such prophesies or promises there which were not accomplisht . prot. suppose then he urge it thus , if they were accomplisht , then you must shew when and how they were accomplisht either in scripture or other stories , if you cannot , i shall conclude they never were accomplisht . pop. i should tell him , that he is obliged to shew they were not accomplisht , not i to shew that they were accomplisht ; i should tell him that they might be accomplisht , though the accomplishment of them were never put into any writing ( and being but an historical tradition , might easily be lost ) or if it were put into writing , that also might be lost by the injury of time , as thousands of other books have been , so that no prudent man will believe this mad proposition , that nothing was done in former ages that was not mentioned in the records which we have . but if it were possible that some particular things were not recorded , or w●re lost , yet it is probable that so eminent and publick a matter as a succession of churches should lie hid . prot. i confess it is not so probable that a large and glorious church should so lie hid ; but since it was sufficient for the making good of christs promise of being ever with his church ; if there were some few congregations and ministers , though scattered in divers places , that these should not be recorded , is not at all strange nor improbable to any one who considers , 1. how many matters of far greater note are recorded only in some single author , which if he had been lost ( and that he was as lyable to , as they that were lost ) the memory of those things had perished with him . 2. how wofully dark and ignorant some ages of the church were , as you all confess , wherein there was not much reading , but to be sure , there was little or no writing . and that little that was written , was written by men of the times , who would not do their enemies that honour or right to put them into their histories : 3. if any did mention such things , it is not at all improbable , that such book or books wherein they were recorded , might either be lost by the injury of time , ( as thousands of other books were , which was much more easie before printing was found out , or suppressed by the tyranny of your predecessors , who made it their business ( as israels enemies of old ) that the name and remembrance of true christians might be blotted out of the earth . so then , if christ did indeed promise the perpetual visibility of his church , i will conclude he made it good , though history be silent in the point ; nor will i conclude it was not done , because it is not recorded : but i pray you let me further ask you , is it true that i am told , that in the former ages there were many christians and ministers whom your church did persecute and burn for hereticks ? pop. that cannot be denyed . prot. this shews there were not wanting even in former ages , some that testified against your corruptions , and this was a sign they were the true church , ( whose office it is to contend for the faith delivered to the saints ) for these things were not done in a corner . i am told that your great bellarmine , when is was objected against him , that the church was obscure in st. hilaries dayes , answers , that though the true church may be obscure by multitude of scandals , yet even then it is visible in its strongest members , as then it was in athanasius , hilary , eusebius , and two or three more whom he mentions : * whence i gather , that some few eminent preachers and professors of the truth are sufficient to keep up this visibility : i remember i have read in the history of the waldenses , who ( though your predecessors branded them with odious names and opinions , yet ) do sufficiently appear to have been a company of orthodox and serious christians , and indeed true protestants , these began about 500 years ago , saith your genebrard † , and your reinerius , who was one of their cruel butchers , ( otherwise called inquisitors ) writeth thus of them ; this sect ( saith he ) is the most pernicious of all others , for three causes ; 1. because it is of long continuance , some say that it hath endured from the time of silvester ; others from the time of the apostles ; the 2. is , because it is more general , for there is almost no land in which this sect doth not creep . 3. that whereas all others by the immanity of their blasphemies against god , do make men abhor them , these having a great shew of godliness , because they do live justly before men , and believe all things well of god , and all the articles which are contained in the creed , only the church of rome they do blaspheme and hate . behold here out of your own mouths , a plain confutation of your objection , and a testimony of the perpetuity , amplitude , visibility , and sanctity of our church ; for it is sufficiently known that our church and doctrine is for substance the same with theirs . now tell me , i pray you , if this history of them had been lost , and no other mention of them made in other records , had it been a truth for you to affirm , that there never were any such men and churches in that time ? pop. no surely , for the recording of things in history doth not make them true , nor the silence of histories about true occurrences make them false . prot. then there might be the like companies and congregations in former ages for ought you or i know ; nor can you argue from the defect of an history to the denial of the thing : and all this i say not as if there were no records which mention our church in former ages ; for as i said before , it is sufficiently evident , that all our material doctrines have been constantly and successively owned by a considerable number of persons in several ages , but only that you may see there is a flaw in the very foundation of your argument . moreover , i finde in scripture several instances of such times when the church was as much obscured , and invisible as ever our church was , as when israel was in egypt , so oft-times under the judges , iudg. 2. 3. and so under divers of the kings , as ahab , when elijab complained he was left alone , and the 7000. which were reserved , though known to god , were invisible to the prophet ; and under ahaz and manasseh , and so in the babylonish captivity : and so under antiochus ; read at my desire , 2 chr. 15. 3. 28. 24. 29. 6 , 7. 33. 3 , 4. so in the new testament , how obscure , and in a manner invisible , was the christian church for a season ! nay , let me add , this perpetual visibility and splendour is so far from being a note of the true church , that on the contrary , it is rather a sign that yours is not the true church , as appears thus : christ hath foretold the obscurity and smallness of his church in some after ages ; he tells us that there shall be a general apostasie and defection from the faith , 2 thess. 2. 1 tim. 4. i read of a woman , rev. 12. and she is forced to flee into the wilderness ; and i am told your own expositors agree with us , that this is the church which flees from antichrist into the wilderness , and secret places , withdrawing her self from persecution . is this true ? pop. i must confess our authers do t●ke it so . prot. then it seems you do not believe your selves , when you plead the necessity of perpetual visibility and splendour , for here you acknowledge her obscurity ; and really this place and discourse of yours does very much confirm me , that that obscurity which you object against us , is an argument that ours is the true church though , according to this prediction , the pope this antichrist , did drive our predecessors into the wilderness , i read of a beast rising out of the sea. revel . 13. which your own authors , menochius , tirinus , and almost all expositors ( as riberus saith ) acknowledge to be antichrist , and this beast all the inhabitants of the world do worship , except those whose names are written in the book of life , verse 8. that is , excepting only the invisible church ; if any church be visible and glorious at that time , it must be the false and antichristian church ; and now i speak of that , i have heard that you your selves confess , that in the time of antichrist the church shall be obscure , and all publick worship in the churches of christians shall be forbidden and cease : is it so ? pop. it is true , it shall be so , i. e. during the time of antichrists reign , as bellarmine acknowledgeth * , but that is only for a short moment , for three years and a half , which is all the time that antichrist shall reign . prot. i thank you for this , for now you have exceedingly confirmed me in the truth of my religion ; for since you grant that the church shall be obscured durings antichrist reign , i am very well assured that your opinion of the triennial reign of antichrist is but a meer dream , and that he was to reign in the church for many hundred of years , for 1260 dayes , rev. 11. 3. & 12. 6. ( that is , years , it being a very familiar thing to put dayes for years , in prophetical writings . ) but if the church may be obscured for three years , why not for thirty , yea , three hundred ? did christ in his supposed promise of perpetual visibility in the church , make an exception for these three years ? i trow not : and tell me , i pray you , should you live till that time when antichrist shall prevail , and your religion no less than ours be obscure and invisible ; if any of the followers of antichrist should dispute against you , that yours was not the true church because not visible , would you grant it ? pop. god forbid i should be so wicked to deny my mother , and church , because of her afflictions . prot. then i see you your selves do not believe this to he a good argument , and that you do not make perpetual visibility a necessary token of the true church . to this i add , there is no need we should shew a constant succession of protestant churches ever since the apostles dayes , ( as you pretend is necessary ) the succession that you pretend in your church is sufficient for ours , and so long as we generally agree that your church was a true church ( till later years ) though wofully corrupted , and our predecessors continued in it , till your wounds stunk and became incurable , we need no other succession than yours ; but when your impiety came to the height , then we visibly departed from you , and have given such reasons for it , as you will never be able to answer ; in the mean time let me hear what you have further to say . pop. for as much as all your ministers confess our church was once a true church , i pray you tell me how , and when she did fall ? you cannot tell either the time when she fell , or the manner how , by apostacy , or heresie , or schism ; if you can , name your authors . prot. this is a most unreasonable demand : a friend of mine had the plague last year , and died of it i askt him when he was sick , how and when he got it , he said he knew not ; shall i then conclude he had it not ? shall i make christ a lyar , and dispute that there were no tares , because they were sown when men slept , mat. 13. 25. and so could not know when or how they came ? shall i believe no heresie to be an heresie , unless i can shew how and when it came into the church ? what if the records of these things by the injury of time are lost , and their original left in obscurity ; shall i therefore say , it is now become no heresie ? i beseech you answer me freely this question . suppose i could bring plain and strong evidences from the holy scripture , and from antient tradition , or the unanimous testimonies of the antient fathers , that your doctrine of merits ( for instance ) is an heresie , your doctrine of worshipping images is idolatry ; and that you are in divers particulars apostatized from that faith which the scriptures and fathers do own ; in this case , would you not confess , that you are guilty of idolatry , heresie , and apostasie ? pop. if it were so , and you could really bring ( as you falsely pretend you can , but indeed cannot ) any such solid proofs , i must and will confess it : for all our writers agree , that although we must believe many things that are not contained in the scripture , yet we must believe nothing contrary to the scriptures , nor to the consent of the antient fathers . prot. very well , hence then i gather that the only question between you and me is , whether we can evidently and solidly prove the particulars now mentioned , which if we can do , as i am satisfied our ministers have done , you are convicted in your own conscience , and will confess your self and your church guilty of heresie , idolatry , and apostasie , whether i can tell the manner or time , or authors of this doctrine or no. therefore leaving these frivolous and impertinent questions , let me hear what you have to say more against our religion , and whereas your discourse i observe hath wholly run upon generals , i beseech you come to some particulars , and shew me the falshood of the doctrines of our church . but it doth not a little confirm me in my religion , that you confess ( as i shewed before ) most of our doctrines to be true , and grounded upon scripture , whereas yours are additions of your own devising . now if things be thus , you shall not need to trouble your self about many particulars . but if you please single out some of our principal heresies , ( as you call them ) and let me hear what evidences you can bring against them . pop. your heresies are very many , but i shall mention one which may be instead of all , and that is your rule of faith and iudge of controversies , which you make to be the scripture only . prot , i am glad you have fallen upon so material a point , the deciding whereof may make other disputes in great part useless . tell me then what you have to say against this doctrine . pop. i will urge four arguments against it . 1. scripture hath no authority over us but from the church . 2. you cannot know what books are the holy scriptures , or part of it , but by the churches report . 3. if neither of these were true , yet scripture is not a sufficient rule for your faith without tradition . 4. if it were sufficient , yet it is so obscure , that you cannot know the sense of it without the interpretation of the church . you see here is a fourfold cord , which you will find is not easily broken . prot. make these things good , and i confess you do your work in a great measure . let me hear your proofs . pop. for the first then , i say , that scripture hath no authority over us but from the church : neither you nor i are bound to believe the scripture to be the word of god , nor can any man know it or prove it to be so , but from the testimony of our church concerning it . prot. i pray tell me , if you were to discourse with an atheist , who utterly denies the holy scriptures and the church too , could you not prove against him that the scriptures are the word of god ? pop. god forbid , but that i should be able to defend the truth of the scriptures against any adversary whatsoever . prot. how then i pray you would you prove it ? pop. i need not tell you the arguments which in this case our doctors use , and i stand by them in it , they alledge for the truth of the holy scriptures the testimony of all ages and all sorts of persons , the miracles wrought for it acknowledged even by the enemies of it , the martyrdom , that so many thousands ( and many of them wise and learned men ) did run upon in the defence of them ( who living so near the time of the writing of them were best able do discern the truth ) and the wonderful power that goes along with them in convincing , converting , and comforting or terrifying sinners . prot. do you believe these are solid arguments , and that the atheist ought to yield to them ? pop. yes doubtless , for every man is bound to receive the truth , especially when it is so proposed and proved to him . prot. it seems then by this , when you list , you can prove the scripture to be the word of god without taking in the churches authority ; i hope you will allow me the same benefit . but again let me ask you , your church that you talk of , which believes the scripture to be the word of god ; doth she believe it to be the word of god upon solid grounds or no ? pop. yes doubtless , our church is not so irrational as to believe without grounds ; nor do we pretend revelation , but she believes it upon solid arguments . prot. i wish you would give me a list of their arguments : but whatever they be that are sufficient to convince your church , why should they not be sufficient to convince any private man , popish or protestant , or atheist ? and therefore there is no need of the churches testimony : or will you say , the church hath no other sufficient reason to believe the scriptures but her own testimony , that is , she believes because she will believe ? pop. god forbid that i should disparage the church , or give atheists that occasion to scoff at the stripture . prot. then i also may be satisfied without the churches testimony , that the scriptures are the word of god ; and i am so , by such arguments as your self mentioned ; but really i cannot but smile to see what cunning sophisters you are , how you play at fast and loose : the same arguments for the scriptures are strong and undeniable when you talk with an atheist , and are all of a sudden become weak as water when a protestant brings them . pop. but if you can prove in the general , that the scriptures are the word of god , yet you cannnot without the churches authority , tell what books of scripture , or which are canonical , and so you are never the nearer . prot. here also i must ask you again , how doth your church know which books are scripture and canonical , doth she know this by revelation ? pop. no , we leave such fancies to your church . prot. how then doth she know this , and why doth she determine it ? is it with reason , or without it ? pop. with reason doubtless , being induced to believe and determine it upon clear and undoubted evidences . prot. i pray you tell me what are those evidences upon which she goes . pop. i will be true to you , our great bellarmine mentions these three , the church ( saith he ) knows and declares a canonical book , 1. from the testimonies of the antients . 2. from its likeness and agreement with other books . 3. from the common sense and taste of christian people * . prot. since a private man especially one that besides learning and experience hath the spirit of god to guide him , which is that anointing given to all believers , which teaches them all things , 1 joh. 2. 27. ) may examine and apprehend these things as well as the pope himself , ( and better too , considering what kind of creatures divers of your popes are confest to have been ) he may therefore know without the churches authority , what books are indeed canonical ; but i pray you tell me , do not you acknowledge those books to be the word of god which we do that are in this bible ? pop. i must be true to you , we do own every book you have there ; but you should receive the books which you call apocryphal , so that indeed your bible is not compleat , for you believe but a part of the written word of god , which i must tell you is of dangerous consequence . prot. if these books be a part of gods word , i confess we are guilty of a great sin , in taking away from gods word ; and if they be not , you are no less guilty in adding to it ; so that the only question is , whether these books be a part of the holy scripture or no ? now , that if you please we will try bellarmines rules . pop. the motion is fair and reasonable . prot. first then , for the judgment of the antient church , let us try that ; i know you hold the churches judgment infallible , especially in matters of this moment ; and i suppose you think the iewish church was infallible before christ , as the christian church now is . pop. we do so , and the infallibility of the iewish church and high priest , deut. 17. is one of our principal arguments for the infallibility of our church * . prot. then only these books of the old testament were canonical , which the jewish church did own . pop. that must necessarily follow . prot. then your cause is lost , for it is certain , the jews rejected these apocryphal books which you receive , and they reckoned only 22. iosephus his words ( acknowledged for his by eusebius † ) , are most express for us , the iews have only 22 books , to which they deservedly give credit , which contains things written from the beginning of the world to the times of artaxerxes : other things were written afterward , ( so the apocryphal books are granted to have been ) but they are not of the same credit with the former , because there was no certain succession of prophets , b and i am told divers of your learned authors confess it , as catharinus , c costerus , d marianus victor , e and bellarmine himself , whose words are these ; all those books which the protestants do not receive , the iews also did not receive : f and this is more considerable , because to the iews were committed the oracles of god , rom. 3. 2. and neither christ nor his apostles did accuse them of breach of trust in this matter . moreover , i am told ( and surely in all reason it must needs be true ) that the canonical books of the iewish church were written in the iewish or hebrew language , whereas these were written in greek only . are these things so ? pop. what is true i will acknowledge ; it is so ; the jewish church indeed did not receive them , nor yet did they reject them , as our canus well answers . g prot. either that church did believe them to be canonical , or they did not ; if they did , then they lived in a mortal sin against conscience in not receiving them ; if they did not , they were of our opinion . pop. well , what soever the jewish church did , i am sure the antient christians and fathers did receive these books as a part of the canonical scriptures . prot. i doubt i shall take you tardy there too ; i am told that the council of laodicea , ( in the year of our lord 364. ) drew up a catalogue of the books of the scripture , in which ( as in ours ) the apocryphal books are rejected . pop. it is true , they did not receive them , nor yet reject them . prot. if they did not receive them , that undeniably shews that they did not believe them to be canonical , and yet they diligently scanned the point , and the books had then been extant some hundred of years , and they were far more likely to know the truth than we at this distance , having then such special opportunities of knowing the judgement of the antient church , both iewish and christian : besides , i am informed that the famous bishop of sardis melito , ( a man of great judgment and venerable holiness , as your sixtus senensis saith ) did take a journey to the eastern churches ( where the apostles principally preached ) to find out the true canon of the scripture , and returned with the same canon that we own ; but for the apochrypha brought home a non est inventus : and moreover that divers of your greatest champions do confess , that a great number of the antient fathers were of our opinion , among which themselves reckon melito , origen , athanasius , eusebius , ruffinus , hierom , and amphilocius , so say canus and bellarmine , and andradius ; and in the general , sixtus senensis confesseth , that the antient fathers were of our opinion . are these things so ? pop. i will not deny the truth , it is so ; but you must know that other fathers were of another minde , as clemens , cyprian , and ambrose , and especially st. austin , and the council of carthage . prot. the fathers of our opinion , were both far more numerous , and such as lived nearest the apostolical times , and churches : the council of laodicea was more antient than that of carthage , ( and therefore of greater authority ) and besides , the sixth council of constantinople doth expresly confirm all the decrees of the council of laodicea , among which this was one ) and the council of carthage too doth not your work : for in their catalogue there is both more than you own , to wit , the third book of esdras , ( although they call it the second , as the greeks did ) and less too , for they shut out baruch and the maccabees ; but besides all this , i am told that very many of your most eminent doctors have disowned these books which we reject , as the parisian divines , and cardinal ximenius , with the complutensian university , and aquinas , and lyra , and pagnim , and many others . is it so ? pop. i confess this is true . * prot. then i am sure this may satisfie any rational man , concerning the testimony of the antient church ; and for the next point , viz. their agreement with the canonical books . i think it is plain enough that they do grosly contradict them , and the truth too ; that fact of simeon and levi , which good iacob acted by gods spirit detesteth , iudith commends , chap. 9. tobit is said to have lived 202. years , chap. 14. whereas if he said true , he must have lived twice as long , for he saith he was taken captive by salmanasser , chap. 1. and 2. and 14. and when he was about to die , he saith , the time was near for the return of the israelites from their captivity , and the re-building of the temple which was burn'd : if the books of the maccabees say true , antiochus his soul had a lease of his body for three lives , and he was killed thrice over , ( i commend the author , he was resolved to make sure work of him . ) 1. he dies at babylon in his bed , 1 mac. 2. 6. then he is stoned in the temple of nanea , 2 mac. 1. lastly , he dyes in the mountains by a fall out of his chariot , 2 maccab. 9. and the fine fetches of your authors to reconcile these gross contradictions , put me in mind of a story we heard at school ( if you remember ) of a gentleman that told this lye , * that he shot a deer at one shot through his right ear , and left hinder leg ; and you know how hard his man was put to it to help his master out ; but i will not launch forth into the sea of untruths and absurdities that are contained in those books ; these may suffice to shew you that we do not without warrant reject them ; but howsoever it is sufficient for my purpose , that you grant that my bible as the word of god , and these books in it canonical , and i can know this without the churches authority . pop. do not make too much haste , if i do grant that these books in the original language are the word of god , yet yours is but a translation . prot. is it rightly translated for the substance , or is it not ? what bible is that which you have ? pop. a latin bible . prot. is that the word of god , and rightly translated ? pop. yes , the council of trent hath decreed so . prot. then i pray you let us try this experiment ; do you pick out any 20. verses in several parts of the bible , and turn them into english out of your bible . pop. the motion is fair , i will do it . prot. i do not finde any substantial difference in all these places between your translation and mine , the difference is wholly in words , not at all in sense ; so now , i thank you for this occasion , for i have heard some of your priests ranting highly against our translation , and now i see they have no cause for it . pop. if all this were over , yet the scripture is not a sufficient rule to guide you to heaven of it self without tradition . prot. why so i beseech you ? pop. because you are also commanded there to hold the tradition , true in your bible to 2 thes. 2. 15. hold the traditions which ye have been taught , whether by word or epistle . prot. how do you prove that he speaks of such traditions as were not written in the scripture ? pop. because he so plainly distinguisheth between what he taught them by word , and what he taught them by epistle or writing . prot. that may be true that he speaks of some things of which he had not written to them , and yet they might be written by him to others , or by others , at least after that time ; but besides , notwithstanding this distinction between word and epistle , divers of your own authors affirm , that tradition is perfect , and that st. paul taught all things necessary by word of mouth ; and why may not i as well say , that he taught all by epistle ? but i pray you , what do you mean by these traditions ? pop. i mean all the traditions which either he , or any other apostles did deliver : all these you are bound to receive . prot. i will not quarrel with you for that , bring me solid proofs of any of your unwritten traditions , that they did indeed come from the apostles , i promise you i will joyfully receive them ; but i pray you , what are these traditions you speak of ? pop. such as these , the doctrine of purgatory , invocation of saints , of the popes supremacy , of the single life of priests , of the fasts of the church , private masses , worship of images , &c. prot. and do you think , that all that did not believe and receive these traditions shall be damned ? pop. no , by no means , for , then i should condemn many of the holy fathers and martyrs who differed from us at least in some of these points . prot. then it is not necessary to salvation to receive these traditions ; and the scripture may be sufficient without them : but further , these unwritten traditions you talk of , i beseech you how came you to discover them , and discern the true from the false ? pop. i altogether approve of bellarmin 's rule , which is this , that ( saith he ) is a true tradition , which all former doctors have successively in their several ages acknowledged to come from the apostles , and by their doctrine or practices have approved , and which the universal church owneth as such ; and the reason is , because the universal church cannot erre * . prot. i see all depends upon this foundation , that the catholick church ( in your sense ) cannot erre ; which , having disproved , i need not trouble my self further : but to wave that , how i pray you do you know what former doctors have successively owned by word or practice ? i presume none of your popes have so good a memory as to remember all that hath been said or done in former ages , though in my opinion when your inventions were upon the wheel , and you did confer upon the pope an infallible judgment , you should have given him also an all-sufficient memory , and then you had done your work . pop. no sir , we pretend no such thing : but we know this from the writings which the doctors have left . it is true , bellarmine mentions another rule , which is the continual usage of the church in all ages ; but ( to deal candidly with you ) i cannot know what their use was , but by their writings ; so all must come to that . prot. first , then i note , you forsake your cause , and it seems a writing is now made a rule for your unwritten traditions ; if it may be so , let me beg your favourable opinion of the apostles writings ; besides , those writers which record these traditions , were they infallible ? pop. no , we do not hold any particular writers infallible , especially not in matters of fact , such as reporting a tradition or use of the church undoubtedly is . prot. then they might mistake false traditions for true : besides , how can i tell what the antient doctors did agree in , since most of them never wrote ; and many of their writings are lost ; and yet all of them had equal liberty of voting in this case ? besides , i have heard that divers of the antient fathers did report several things to be apostolical traditions which your church now rejecteth , as that infants should receive the communion , and that christ should reign on earth a thousand years , and many others : i am told also , that your great baronius , writing concerning the apostles , professeth , he despairs to find out the truth , even in those matters which true writers have recorded ; because there was nothing which remained sincere and incorrupted : is it so ? pop. you shall find me ingenuous ; it is so , baronius saith it , anno 44. sect . 42. prot. then truly i shall bid tradition ( in your sense ) good night : for as to your traditions i see there is no certainty in them . shall i forsake the certain and acknowledged verity of the scripture for such trash ? god forbid . again , i pray you tell me , doth not every wise man that makes any thing , make it sufficient for its end ? if you build an house to live in , will not you make it sufficient for that end ? if a man makes a sword to cut with , a coat of male to defend him , &c. is he not a fool if he doth not , if he can , make them sufficient for their end and use ? pop. that must needs be granted . prot. and was not our instruction and salvation the end for which god wrote the scripture ? pop. how do you prove that it was ? prot. god himself tells me so , iohn 20. 31. these things are written that you may believe that iesus is the christ , the son of god , and that believing you might have life through his name . pop. s. john speaks there of miracles , not of doctrines , and so that is nothing to the purpose . prot. he speaks of miracles , which were done in confirmation of the doctrine of christ , and so the doctrine is not to be excluded : besides , i suppose you will not say that s. iohn wrote the doctrines of christ for one end , and the miracles for another : moreover , it plainly appears , both that this was the end for which the scripture was written , and that it is sufficient for its end , from that 2 tim. 3. 15 , 16 , 17. he saith expresly , the scriptures are able to make a man of god wise unto salvation . * pop. well , but if all these things be so , yet since the scripture is dark and doubtful , and you can never apprehend the true meaning of it but from the church , you are never the nearer ; and the scripture is not a convenient judge of controversies . prot. tell me i pray , doth your church understand the true meaning of the scripture ? pop. yes doubtless , because she hath the spirit of god. prot. then certainly she is most deeply guilty of uncharitableness , or envy , or cruelty to souls , that she doth not put forth a clear and infallible comment upon the whole scripture , but still suffers the whole world to live in contention about the true meaning of hundreds of texts of scripture . pop. she forbears that , for reasons best known to her self : but this is not much to the purpose . prot. whereas you pretend your church certainly knows the true sense of the scripture , and this church you say is the pope , or a council , and if these be infallible , you say they are so in their decrees : if this be so , how comes it to pass that none do more grosly mistake , and mis-apply scripture than divers of your popes and councils have done , even in their decrees , and decretal epistles ( which you reverence as the gospel ) ? your pope nicholas the first , proves his supremacy from that text , arise peter kill and eat : small encouragement to us to become his sheep , if he so use them ; and from hence , that peter drew to the shore his net full of fishes , your pope boniface the eighth proves it from gen. 1. 1. in the beginning god created heaven and earth , therefore the pope hath power in temporals and spirituals : and this ( saith he ) you must hold , unless with the manichees you hold two principles : and your councils are not more happy expositors . the council of lateran proves the popes power from psa. 72. ( which speaks of solomon and christ ) all kings shall fall down before him . the second council of nice alledges these scriptures for the worship of images , that god created man in his own image , gen. 1. let me see thy countenance , cant. 2. no man when he hath lighted a candle covereth it under a vessel , luk. 8. 16. in my opinion they spoke like a council , expecting that the world should receive their decrees , not for any solidity of argument ( that had been pedantick ) but meerly for the churches majesty and authority . nay , the jest is , when their adversaries had taken notice of these absurd impertinencies , up steps pater noster , pope adrian , and he saith , he will maintain it ( in spite of fate ) that they alledged them rightly and excellently : so here we have a pope and council joyning together ( and therefore undoubtedly infallible ) in these expositions . nay , the council of trent it self ( when one would expect they should have grown wiser , though not better ) prove the unequal power of popes , bishops , and priests , from rom. 13. 1. the powers that be are ordained of god ; that is , digested into order . i hope ere you have done , you will put forth an entire comment upon the whole bible , which i assure you will be the rarest book that ever saw the light . but further , i desire to know of you how your church comes to have this true and certain sense of scripture ; hath she it by revelation or inspiration ? pop. no , we pretend to no such thing ; but she comes to know it by the diligent use of means , by prayer , by reading , and comparing scripture , by consulting ancient interpreters , analogy of faith , the coherence , &c. and even the pope himself , when he set forth his translation of the bible , he professes to all the world , that he did it in the very same manner , and by the same helps , that other translators do ; that is , by advising with learned men , and consulting antient copies , and the like * . prot. very good , then i pray you tell me why a protestant minister ( being oft times both a learneder and better man than the pope ) may not as certainly hit upon the true sense of the scripture as the pope himself . pop. the reason is plain , because the pope is guided by the infallible assistance of gods spirit . prot. you ought not to rant at this height , until you have solidly answered what our divines have wrote against this infallibility . and i heard before the woful weakness of your arguments ; for it is to me the vainest thing in the world to pretend a promise of the spirit of god infallibly to guide such men , as ( if the scripture be true ) have not the spirit of christ in them , being ( as you confess many of your popes and bishops were ) sensual , not having the spirit : and having apparently no other spirit in them , but the spirit of the world , the spirit that lusteth to envy and all wickedness : but since you pretend the scripture is so dark , i pray you tell me , what was the end for which god designed the scripture ? sure i think it was for our understanding ; my bible tells me , that whatsoever things were written aforetime , were written for our learning , rom. 15. 4 but if you say true , it seems god meant only to put forth riddles : gods law was designed by him for a light , and that even to the simple , psal. 19. 7 , 8 , 9. and 119 , 105. and in a word , the gospel is so clear , that saint paul pronounceth , it is hid from none but them that perish , 2 cor. 4. 3 , 4. and saint luke wrote his gospel , that theophilus ( and with him other christians ) might know the certainty of those things wherein they had been instructed , luke 1. 4. and generally every discreet man that writes a book , writes it so , as it may be understood ; especially if it be for the benefit of the ignorant , as well as the learned ( which the scripture assuredly was . ) tell me then i pray you , why should god write his mind so darkly and doubtfully as you know whose oracles are said to be delivered ? was it because god could not write plainer ( and wanted the gift of utterance ) or because he would not ? pop. notwithstanding all this , it is certain , the scripture is full of obscure places . prot. i do not deny this : but those things which are obscurely delivered in one place , are more clearly delivered in another ; and those dark places generally are about prophecies , and such other things ; the knowledge of which is not necessary to salvation , but for necessaries the scripture is plain , and i am told , that divers of your authors acknowledge so much : is that true ? pop. i confess costerus hath this expression , that things which are necessary to be known by all christians , are plainly and clearly delivered in the writings of the apostles , and some others of our doctors say as much * * see nullity of rom. faith , chap. 7. sect . 4. prot. it could be nothing but the evidence of the truth which forced such an acknowledgment from its greatest adversaries , therefore let this go , and let me hear what further you have to say against our religion . pop. i find you are an obstinate heretick , and setled upon the lees , and therefore it will be needless to discourse further with you ; if any thing could have convinced you , surely the arguments i have offered would have done it ; for i assure you i have pickt out the strength and marrow of the catholick cause in the points we have discoursed . and since i see you turn a deaf ear to my counsel , i shall give you over as incorrigible . prot. you see i have heard you with great patience , and given you all the freedom you could desire ; now i have one request to you , that you would allow me the same priviledge , with patience to hear , and , if you can , answer what i shall object against your religion . pop. with a very good will , i 'le meet you here to morrow at this time , so at present adieu . the second conference . prot. well met sir , i see you are as good as your word , and i hope you will allow me as much freedom and patience as i did you . pop. i shall willingly do it , therefore speak freely , and so will i , and if truth be on your side let it prevail . prot. i shall divide my discourse into two parts . 1. some general considerations , which indeed do very much set me against your religion . 2. i shall examine the grounds of your principal points of doctrine ; for to meddle with all , will be needless : if your pillars fall the rest cannot stand . for the first , there are several weighty considerations against your religion ; i shall give you them in order . the first general consideration is this ; 1. that your church declines all judgment but her own , and makes her self judge in her own cause ; you do not allow scripture to be judge , nor the antient fathers ( for all your talk of antiquity ) nor indeed any but your selves , the pope , or a council of your own , and your church it seems must determine , whether she be a true church or no , and whether she be pure or corrupted , or whether she be infallible or no ; is this so ? pop. i confess this is our doctrine , and i think grounded upon reason . prot. you speak against the common sense of all men . in all controversies or differences between men and men , we generally suspect that party who will submit to no judgment but his own ; and he who is willing to refer himself to any third indifferent party , is generally presumed to have the best cause ; and th●s is our case , protestants do not make themselves and their own church the only judge ( though they might as justly and reasonably do it as you ) but they are very willing to submit to other judges , they refer themselves to be judged by the scripture , which is acknowledged to be a most indifferent judge ; if that do not please you , they refer themselves to the fathers for the first six hundred years , till your abominations had leavened the world , according to what was foretold , rev. 13. 8. ii. my second consideration is this ; you do not only decline the scriptures judgment , but you infinitely disparage and vilifie it . i meet with several passages quoted out of your authors to that purpose . pop. possibly you may out of some inconsiderable ones , but not out of any of note and name in our church . prot. yes , out of your prime authors , i read that cardinal hosius in his advertisement to king sigismund hath this expression , if they ( that is , the hereticks ) say , it is written , that is the voice of the devil , speaking in his members a . but that it is below a cardinal to read the bible , he would have found the words also in christs mouth . i read that costerus calls the scripture by way of contempt paper and parchment . god ( saith he ) would no● have his church ( by which always understand the papists themselves ) now depend upon paper and parchment , as moses made the carnal israelites : and again , that which is written in the heart of the church , doth by many degrees excel the scriptures : first , because that was written by the finger of god , but this by the apostles a , as if the writings of the apostles were only a device of man. i read that cardinal pool writing to henry the eighth , saith thus , what an absurd thing is this , that thou dost attribute more authority to the scripture than to the church , since the scripture hath no authority but for the decree of the church b ? ( he means the roman church . ) i see we are highly concerned to please your church , else we are like to have no scriptures . i read that pighius saith , the apostles did never intend to subject our faith to their writings , but rather their writings to our faith c . and afterward he saith , the scriptures are ( as one said , not more pleasantly than truly ) a nose of wax which suffers it self to be drawn hither or thither , as a man pleaseth d . i read that your bullenger saith ; the scripture is the daughter , the church the mother , which gives being and sufficiency to her she begets . ( no wonder then , the church makes bold with the scripture to add , or alter , or dispense with it . we all know the mother may correct the daughter . ) i confess , when i read those passages produced by our writers , i suspected they wronged them . are these things true ? pop. i acknowledge it , and it is a vain thing for me to deny it , for the books and those passages in them are extant under their own hands : and i must confess , these authors are as considerable and approved as any we have . but you ought to put a favourable sense upon them . prot. i would not strain them , nor make them worse than they are . take them as you will , they are abominable expressions , and ( to me ) a great evidence , that the scripture is no friend to your church . and i conclude this to be one accomplishment of what christ hath said , every one that doth evil hateth the light , neither cometh to the light , lest his deeds should be reproved , john 3. 20. and if this be the spirit by which your church is guided , i am sure it is not the spirit of god and of truth ; for that teacheth men reverence and love to the scriptures : you seem to do like herod , who being convinced that he was not of the royal race of the iews , did burn their genealogies and records , that his false pretences might not be confuted by them . and just so do you endeavour to do by the scriptures : iii. my third consideration against your religion is this ; that your cause is such as dares not abide tryal : this is the honour and happiness of our religion ; we are allowed to examine all that our ministers say , and we have a rule ( which we may peruse ) to try them by , viz. the holy scriptures , which you dare not suffer your people to read . and this i take to be a secret confession of your guilt ; and i am told your alphonsus de castro saith , that from the reading of the scripture all heresies come * . pop. i think your experience hath justified that expression , you see what you get by the reading of the scriptures , even this , that you are crumbled into a thousand sects . prot. our saviour was not of your mind , for he thought not acquaintance with , but ignorance of the scriptures was the cause of error ; ye erre , not knowing the scriptures , mat. 22. 29. nor did he only allow , but command the iews to search the scriptures , without any fear of this inconvenience , iohn 5. 39. had s. paul been of your mind , he would not have commended , but reproved the beraans for searching the scriptures , and examining his doctrine by them , act. 17. 11. if any of your people should do as the beraeans did , they would be sent to the inquisition . i do not deny , but too many make a bad use of the scripture , and wrest it to wicked purposes , which is to me no better an argument than this ; wine makes many men drunk , therefore no wine must be sold. the doctrine of free grace was abused by thousands ( as we read ) therefore s. paul did ill in preaching of it . the light of the sun hurts sore eyes , therefore solomon was mistaken , when he said , it is a pleasant thing to behold the sun. but since you speak of this , i pray you let me ask you one question ; were not most of the heresies that ever were in the church , brought in by learned men ? pop. i cannot deny that , for it is notoriously known . prot. then you shut up the wrong door ; for , it seems , it is not the unlearned mans reading , but the learned mans perverting the scripture , which is the true cause and fountain of heresies : and besides , you must not do evil , that good may come out of it , nor defraud people of their greatest treasure , nor keep them from their duty , for fear of some inconveniencies . this is to make your selves wiser than god. pop. but indeed you slander us in this point : we do not absolutely forbid reading of the scriptures . the council of trent allows it , provided you can get the bishops leave . prot , it is true , that council pretends to give some such liberty ; but they take away with one hand , what they gave with the other ; for in their index of forbidden books , they have this passage : since experience sheweth that the promiscuous reading of the bible brings more evil than good , therefore if any man shall dare to read , or have a bible without license from the bishop , or inquisitor , he shall not be capable of absolution * unless he part with his bible . but in truth , this pretended license is but an handsome blind : for in that very place there is this observation added to that rule , that the power of giving such licenses of reading , or keeping the vulgar bibles , is taken away from such bishops and inquisitors , by the command and usage of the roman and universal inquisition . at best , it seems , i must not obey christs command of searching the scriptures , unless the bishop give me leave . but i pray you tell me ; do your people use to ask , and the bishops to give them leave to read the bible ? pop. i will not dissemble with you , they do not . and , the truth is , an approved writer of ours , ledesima puts the question ; what if a man should come to the bishop , and desire liberty to read the bible , and that with a good intention ? to which he replies , that the bishop should answer him in the words of christ , matt. 20. 20. ye know not what ye ask , and indeed ( saith he , and he saith it truly ) the root of this demand is an heretical disposition * . prot. then i perceive in this , as well as in other things , you are more careful to deceive people with pretences , than to inform them . but indeed , you tell me no more than i had read , or heard out of your own authors . it was the speech of your pope innocent , that the mountain which the beasts must not touch is the high and holy scriptures which the unlearned must not read * and your doctors commonly affirm , that people must not be suffered to read the scriptures , because we must not give holy things to dogs , nor cast pearls before swine . my fourth general consideration against your religion is this , that it grosly contradicts the great designs and ends of the christian religion , which all confess to be such as these , the glorifying of god , and his son jesus christ , and the humbling and abasing of men , the beating down of all sin , and the promoting of serious holiness . are not those the chief ends of religion ? pop. i do freely acknowledge they are , and our religion doth most answer these ends . prot. that you and i will now try and for the first : your religion doth highly dishonour god sundry ways . what can be a greater dishonour to god , than to make the holy scriptures ( which you confess to be the word of god ) to depend upon the testimony and authority of your pope , or church , and to say , that the word of god is but a dead letter , and hath no authority over us without their interpretation and approbation ; by which means malefactors ( for such all men are , rom. 3. 9 , 10. your pope not excepted ) are made judges of , and superiour to that law whereby they are condemned . tell me ; would not the french king take it for a great dishonour , if any of his subjects should say , that his edicts and decrees had no authority over his people without their approbation ? pop. yes , doubtless he would . prot. just so you deal with god : and what can be a fouler dishonour to god , than that which your great stapleton affirmed , and gretser and others justified , and your church to this day have never disowned it : that the divinity of christ and of god ( in respect of us ) depends upon the authority of the pope ? * and what more dishonourable to god than what your great champion bellarmine saith , that , if the pope should erre in forbidding virtues ( which god hath commanded ) and commanding vices ( which god hath forbidden ) ; and that he may so erre , divers of your most famous and approved authors confess , * the church were bound to believe vices to be good , and vertues bad , unless she would sin against conscience ; † that is , in plain terms , the pope is to be obeyed before god. again , is it not highly dishonorable to god , to give the worship which is proper to god , unto the creature ? i confess the prophet isaiah hath convinced me of it , isa. 42 , 8. i am the lord , that is my name , and my glory will i not give to another , neither my praise to graven images . pop. i also am of the same mind ; but it is a scandal of your ministers , to say we give gods honour to the creature : i know where about you are , you mean it of images , whereas we worship them with a lower kind of worship . prot. you worship them with such a kind of worship , as neither angels nor saints durst receive . cornelius did not worship peter with a divine worship as god ( for he knew he was but gods minister ) yet peter durst not receive it . it was an inferiour worship which the devil required of christ , for he acknowledges at the same time , god to be his superiour , and the giver of that power he claimeth , luke 4. 6. and yet that was the worship , which christ saith god hath forbidden , to be given to any creature . you are a valiant man , that dare venture your immortal soul upon a nice school distinction . i pray you , do you not worship the bread in the sacrament , with that worship which you call latria , which is proper to god ? pop. we do so , and that upon very good reason , because it is not bread , but the very body of christ into which the bread is turned . prot. but what if the bread be not converted in christs body : is it not then an high dishonour to god , and indeed damnable idolatry ? pop. yes , our fisher the famous martyr and bishop of rochester , saith , no man can doubt , if there be nothing in the eucharist but bread , that the whole church hath been guilty of idolatry for a long time , and therefore must needs be damned * ; but we are well assured , that it is no longer bread ; and yet i must add this ; if peradventure it should still remain bread , yet for as much as we believe it , to be the body of our lord , our ignorance , i hope , would excuse us from idolatry , and god would not impute it to us . prot. tell me , i beseech you , will all kind of ignorance excuse a man ? pop. no certainly , there is a wilful and affected ignorance ; which , because it is against clear light , will not excuse . prot. tell me farther , did this excuse the iews from their sin of crucifying christ , and the damnation due to it , that they did it ignorantly ? act. 3. 17. pop. no , because they shut their eyes against the plain light , and clear evidence of that truth that christ was the messias . prot. no less do you in the doctrine of the sacrament ; for they had no greater evidences against them , than sense , and reason , and scripture ; all which you reject , ( as i shall prove by gods help . ) and as your religion dishonours god , so doth it also highly dishonour jesus christ whom he hath sent , who is expresly called the one mediatour , 1 tim. 2. 5. but you have conferred that honour upon many others , saints and angels . pop. true , there is but one chief mediatour , but there may be other secondary mediatours . prot. in like manner , to that which the apostle there saith , there is but one god ; it might be said , there are other secondary gods , and so we might introduce the heathen gods into the church . it is the great prerogative of jesus christ , that he is the redeemer of the world ; yet your bellarmine was not afraid to communicate this honour to the creature , and expresly saith , it is not absur'd , that holy men be called our redeemers after a sort * , and more of the like stuff we shall meet with before we part : yet again , your religion as it depresseth god , so it exalts the creature . i will instance but in one thing , and that is your doctrine of justification by the merit of good works : a doctrine , which s. paul affirms , gives unto a man matter of boasting and glorying , rom. 3. 27. where is boasting then ? it is excluded , by what law ? of works ? nay , but by the law of faith , & rom. 4. 2. for if abraham were justified by works , he hath whereof to glory . next , you grant , that it is the great design and intent of religion , to discourage and beat down sin , which your religion doth exceedingly incourage by your doctrines and practice in absolutions and indulgences . in my acquaintance , i have known several papists that have wonderfully encouraged themselves in their wicked wayes from this consideration ; especially when easter drew near , because they knew they should very suddenly be shriven , and absolved , and be ( as they said ) as sound and clean as when they came first into the world . i have known also divers of our loose protestants that have turn'd to your religion , that they might have greater liberty for , and the security in sin ; and in my conscience , if i would let my lusts choose a religion for me , they would presently lead me to your religion : and so again , your religion doth not at all promote serious holiness , but the soul and spirit of it is dwindled away into meer formality : what can be of more pestilent consequence to true holiness than to tell a man , that the saying so many pater-nosters , or ave-maries , ( though it may be he is talking , or gazing about in the midst of his devotions ) will procure him acceptance with god ? is it true , that your great and devout doctor suarez saith , that is it not essential to prayer , that a man should think of what he saith ? pop. it is true , he doth say so in his book of prayer . prot. then i confess , your religion hath the advantage of ours , for a man may do two businesses at once : it hath set me much against your religion , since i understood that you turned that great doctrine of repentance into a meer formality : what a sad doctrine is it that your great masters teach , that repentance is not necessary at all times , but only on holy-daies , ( as some of your authors say ) only once in a year , that is , at easter ( as others . ) nay indeed , once in all his life , and that in danger of death ( as navar , and cajetan ) ? what an encouragement is this to wickedness , to tell men that a thousand of their sins are venial , which though not repented of , will not exclude them from the favour of god , and from salvation ; but i will rake no farther into this kennel . i think this may serve turn , to let you see , that i had warrant to say , that your religion contradicts the design , and end of all religion . v. the fifth consideration that sets me against your religion , is the desperate issues that you are driven to in the defence of your cause ; as for example , in the great point of infallibility , i observe your learned doctors are beaten out of all their former assertions and opinions ; you have been driven from scripture to the fathers , from them to the pope , from him to a council , and thence to the pope with a council , and ( as a further sign of a desperate cause ) the jesuits are brought to that exigence , that they are forced to affirm the pope to be infallible in matters of fact , which is confessedly a new , upstart , and indeed , monstrous opinion ; and yet those piercing wits see their cause cannot be defended without it : and others seeing the vanity of all their former pretences , have been forced to resolve all into the present churches testimony . * so for the point of idolatry , you are driven to those straits , that you cannot excuse your selves from idolatry , but by such pretences as will excuse both jewish and gentile idolaters ; and one of your ablest champions is brought to this plunge , that he is forced to affirm , that some idolatry is lawful * : i might instance in very many others , but i forbear . vi. a sixth consideration is taken from the partiality of your religion ; that religion which is from god , is doubtless agreeable to the nature and will of god. but so is not your religion , for it is guilty of that respect of persons which scripture every where denies to be in god , act. 10. 34. rom. 2. 11. iob 34. 19. pop. how is our religion guilty of respect of persons ? prot. i might shew it in many things , but i will confine my self to one particular ; and that is , in point of indulgences : the souls of all that die in venial sins , are doomed to those terrible pains of purgatory , there to continue none knows how long ( by the way , i cannot but take notice of the great unhappiness of those christians , that lived and died in the dayes of christ and the apostles , that have been multitudes of them frying in purgatory to this day , and are like to be so as long as the world lasts ; whereas those that live nearer the end of the world , must needs have a far shorter abode there , so men are punished with continuance of their torments , meerly for the circumstance of time of their birth ; but this is not the thing i aim at , ) from these pains of purgatory , there is no way to deliver a man but by indulgences ; and these indulgences must be bought off with money , and wealthy men may buy off those corporal pains , ( which the rascal herd must suffer without bail or main-prise ) and turn them into a fine of the purse . so i see it was not without reason , that solomon said , money answers all things . i have heard that your tax of the apostolical chancery ( put forth by the authority of your church , where there is a price put upon all indulgences , and upon all kinds of sins ) hath this expression , diligently note , that these graces ( of indulgences ) are not given to the poor , because they are not , and therefore cannot be comforted a ; by which i see , that if st. peter himself should rise from the dead , and come to his successour , with his old tone , silver and gold have i none , if he were a thousand peters , he must into purgatory without mercy . i am told that another of your authors , augustinus de ancona , an author of great note with you , tells us , that indulgences are for the relief of the churches ( that , is the popes , and their prelates ) indigencies , which b is not relieved by a willingness to give ( which is all that any poor man can pretend to ) but by the gift it self . ( it seems your church is not of gods minde ; for , if there be a willing mind , he accepteth it for the deed , 2 cor. 8. 12. ) and a little after ( as i am told ) he saith , as to the remission of punishment which is procured by indulgences , in that case it is not inconvenient , that the rich is in a better condition than the poor , for there it is not said , come and buy without money c . i confess that were a dangerous speech , and would utterly undoe all the church of rome . it is sufficient that isaiah once said it , and christ again , come and drink freely . people should have been wise , and taken them at their word , for they are never like to hear it a third time . is this true ? pop. they do indeed say so ; and the practice of our church manifests to all the world , that indulgences are sold for money , and the condition of the rich , in that , is better than the poor . but what great matter is that , as to the pardon of sin , and eternal life , or death , both rich and poor are alike . this difference is only as to the pains of purgatory . prot. is that nothing to you ? you speak against your own , and all mens sense : we see how highly men esteem to be freed from a painful , though short , disease here ; how much more to be freed from such pains as you all confess to be unspeakably more sharp and grievous , than all the pains that ever were endured in this world : it is so considerable a thing , that i assure you , it is to me matter of wonder ( if christ and the apostles had been of your minde ) how it came to pass so unluckily , that the poor only should receive the gospel ; whereas , if the men of that age had not been all fools , the rich would have been most forward to entertain it . vii . but to proceed . my seventh consideration against your religion is taken from its great hazard , and utter uncertainty . according to the doctrine of your church , no man can be sure of his salvation ( without a revelation ) but he must go out of the world , not knowing whether he goes . indeed there is nothing but hazard and uncertainty in your religion ; i suppose you grant that all your faith , and consequently your salvation depends upon the infallible authority of your church . pop. that is most certain . prot. are you then infallibly certain , that your church is infallible , or do you only probably believe it ? pop. i am but a private priest , and therefore cannot pretend to infallibility ; but i am fully satisfied in it , that the church is infallible in it self . prot. then i see you pretend to no more certainty than i have ; for i know ( and you grant ) that the scripture is infallible in it self : and i know its infallibility as certainly as you know the infallibility of your church . but , i pray you tell me , what is your opinion ? i know your are divided : but where do you place the infallibility , or where do you lay the foundation of your faith ? pop. to deal freely with you , i place it in the pope ; who when he determines things out of his chair , is infallible : for s. peter who was supream head of the church , left the pope his successour . prot. then it seems your faith doth wholly depend on these things , that saint peter was bishop of rome , and died there , and that he left the pope his successour in his supream and infallible authority . pop. it doth so . prot. how then are you infallibly assured of the truth of these things , which are all matters of fact ? pop. because they are affirmed by so many of the ancient fathers and writers . prot. were those fathers or writers infallible persons ? pop. no. prot. then might they , and so may you , be mistaken in that point ; and so indeed you have nothing but a meer conjecture for the foundation of your faith. but again , are you infallibly sure , that saint peters intention was to leave his infallibility to the pope ? for i do not read that s. peter left it in his last wil. i tell you true it is strange to me , that st. peter should write two catholick epistles , and ( as i observed before ) not leave one word concerning this matter . for my part i shall alwayes rather question the popes authority , than s. peters fidelity or discretion , in omitting so fundamental a point when he put in many of far less concernment . but further , i demand , how are you assured that st. peter intended to leave his power , and did actually leave it to his successors ? pop. by the unanimous consent of the ancient fathers . prot. i wonder at your confidence , that you dare affirm a thing which our authors * have so clearly proved to be false . but suppose it were so , that the fathers had said it ; tell me , are the fathers infallible ? at least are they so in their reports of matter of fact ? pop. no : we confess that it is only the pope or council that are infallible , not the fathers ; & to be true to you , even the pope himself is not infallible in his reports of matters of fact. prot. then you have nothing but a meer conjecture , or historical report delivered by men , liable to mistake , for the great foundation of your faith. yet once more , have you any greater or better certainty for your faith than the pope himself . pop. god forbid i should be so impud●nt or wicked to say so ; for my faith depends upon his certainty . prot. very well , how i beseech you is the pope assured ? what is it that makes him infallibly certain of his own infallibility ? is he assured of 〈◊〉 revelat●on ? pop. no ( as i have told you oft ) we pretend to no such things . prot. how then ? pop. by the spirit of god which guides him into all truth . prot. how is he assured that the spirit of god guides him ? pop. by the promises god hath made to him ; i need not repeat them , they are known already , thou are peter , &c. simon , simon , i have prayed that thy faith fail not , &c. prot. i have already shewn how absurdly these texts are alledged . but i beseech you , how is the pope infallibly assured that this is the true meaning of those texts ? you confess it is not by inspiration . pop. he knows that , by considering and comparing scripture with scripture , and by consulting the fathers , and prayer , diligence , and obedience , &c. prot. all these things are very good , but any other man may use these means as well as the pope , and hath as full promises from god , as any the pope pretends to as ioh. 7. 17. if any man will do his will , he shal know of the doctrine , whether it be of god ; and the spirit of truth is promised to all that ask it , luke 11. 13. so if this be all you have to say , god deliver my soul from such a desperate religion , wherein all the certainty of its faith depends upon his infallibility , that is not certain of his own infallibility . but i need say no more of this ; it is to me an undeniable argument , that there is no certainty at all in this foundation ; because ( as you confess ) so many hundreds of your ablest schollars do utterly reject it . but once more , in my opinion you run a dreadful hazard in the point of worshiping of creaturers , images , saints , and especially the bread in the sacrament , in which you run other hazards besides those i spoke of . i am told , that your doctrine is this , that it is necessary to the making of a sacrament ( and so to the conversion of the bread into christs body ) that the priest intend to consecrate it . is it so ? pop. yes doubtless , bellarmine and all our authors largely dispute for that . prot. and can i be sure of another mans intentions ? it is sufficiently known , that divers of your priests are prophane , and atheistical wretches , others envious and malicious , and some actually jews . what assurance have i , that my priest is not such an one , and that he doth not either out of a contempt or hatred of religion or malice against my person , intend to deceive me , and not make a sacrament of it ? sure i am , they intend to deceive their people in the preaching of the word , and why they may not do so in the administration of the sacrament , i know not . viii . my eighth and last general consideration is this , that your religion destroys even the principles of morality : which true religion is so far from destroying , that it improves and perfects it . i confess , the bloodiness of your religion hath ever made me both suspect and loath it . i find that christ is a prince of peace ; though he whipt some out of the temple yet he never whipt any into his church ; that he drew in his disciples with the cords of a man , of conviction and perswasion ; and so did his apostles after him : but your religion ( like draco's laws ) is written in blood . i perceive you answer our arguments with fire and faggot : besides this , your religion destroyes all civil faith and society ; your principle is known , and so is your practice of equivocation , and keeping no faith with hereticks . pop. i know where you are , you mean because of john husse who after he had the faith of the emperour given him for his safe conduct , was contrary to that faith put to death in the council of constance . prot. i do so , and what can you say for it ? pop. this i say you must not charge upon our church , the opinion of some few private doctors , since others disown this , and have written against it . prot. it seems it is a disputable point among you , whether you ought to be honest or not : but i have heard that iohn husse was condemned by the council of constance , and that when the emperour scrupled to break his faith , they declared he might do it , and ought to do it . is it so ? pop. it is true , what was done in that point ; was done by the council . prot. and you hold councils ( especially where the pope joyns with them as he did with that council ) to be infallible ; and therefore this i may confidently charge upon you as a principle of your religion . i cannot but observe your fine devices : at other times when we alledge passages out of any of your learned doctors which make against you , you tell us they are but private doctors , and we must judge of you by your councils . now here we bring an approved councils testimony , and you send us back to your private doctors . pop. these discourses of yours are only general ; i had rather you would come to the other thing you proposed , viz. to examine the particular points of our religion , wherein i hope i shall give you such solid grounds and reasons , that when you shall understand them , you will embrace them . prot. you shall find me ingenuous and docible , only remember i expect not words , but solid arguments . i think our best course will be to pick out some principal points of your religion , and examine them ; for the rest will either stand or fall as they do . pop. i am perfectly of your mind , let us proceed accordingly . prot. first then , if you please , we will begin with the sacrifice of the mass , which you say is essential to the christian religion . pop. it is so , and bellarmine rightly saith , that where there is no sacrifice ( as you protestants have none ) there is in truth no religion . prot. therefore , i pray you , let me hear one or two ( for those are as good as an hundred ) of your chief grounds and reasons for that sacrifice . pop. i approve your motion , and i shall only insist upon two arguments : first , the sacrifice of the mass was appointed by god , or christ , in the words of institution of the sacrament , do this in remembrance of me . it is the great argument of the council of trent * . prot. i adore the fruitfulness of your churches invention . it seems they think these two words , do this , contain no less than two of your sacraments , to wit , that of orders , which makes priests , and that of the supper . pop. they do so . prot. that , no sober man will easily believe ; nor that christs meaning in the words mentioned was this , sacrifice me in remembrance of me . but let me hear how you prove the institution of the mass from these words . pop. christ bid his disciples , do this , viz. that which he did : christ did in that last supper truly and properly offer up himself to his father , his body under the shape of bread , his blood under the shape of wine ; and therefore they were truly and properly to offer up , or sacrifice christ in the sacrament . the argument is bellarmin's * . prot. how do you prove that christ did in that last supper truly and properly offer up his body and blood to his father ? i read that christ offered himself but once , heb. 8. 27. and 9. 25 , 26 , 27 , 28. and 10. 14. and that was upon the cross ; nor do i find that he offered any thing at all to god in that supper , but only to his apostles : and what , did christ sacrifice himself , and imbrue his hands in his own blood ; and did he eat up his own body ? did he take his whole body into his mouth ? these are monsters of opinions : but how prove you that christ did then offer up himself to god ? pop. because christ speaks in the present tense , this is my body which is broken , blood which is shed : he doth not say which shall be broken , and shed ; and therefore it must be broken and shed at that very time . prot. what a vain argumet is this ? you know nothing is more usual in scripture than to put the present tense for the future . christ saith , i do lay down my life when he means , i will do it shortly , iohn 10. 15. i do go to my father , iohn 16. 28. that is , i shall go shortly : do that thou dost , that is , art about to do , john 13. 27. and in mat. 26. christ saith of his blood , this is my blood which is shed for many for the remission of sins ; and yet i suppose it was not shed at that time ; for you all profess the sacrifice of the mass is an unbloody sacrifice : but again , tell me , i pray you , when christ said , do this , did they not obey christs command at that supper ? pop. i cannot deny that . prot. thence unavoidably follows , that this doing concerns the communicants , as well as ( if not more than ) the minister ; and so it is not meant of sacrificing christ , but receiving of him ; and really , if this text do not , there is no other which doth , enjoyn communicants to receive ; which he that can believe , hath got a good mastery over his faith : besides , what christ here commands his apostles , i finde st. paul commands the corinthians , and expounds doing this by eating and drinking , 1 cor. 11. and moreover , if the words do this , were the words which did ordain both priest and sacrifice , who can think that two of the evangelists , viz. both matthew and mark would have omitted them in mentioning the words of institution ; and therefore this may pass . i shall only adde , that if our divines should prove their doctrines no better than by such wrested scriptures and arguments as this , we should hiss them out of the pulpit : but i suppose you have some better argument , therefore let me hear it . pop. consider then that irresistable argument , christ is a priest , after the order of melchisedeck . now melchisedeck did offer up a sacrifice of bread and wine to god , gen. 14. and thefore christ was bound in agreement with this type , to offer up such a sacrifice , even his body and blood , under the species of bread and wine . prot. you tell me melchisedeck offered up bread and wine to god ; i find no such matter : it is only a dream of your own . the history is , gen. 14. where indeed i read of his offering bread and wine to abraham and his souldiers , to refresh them ( according to the custom of those times and places , ) deut. 23. 3 , 4. and iudges 8. 6. but not a word of any offering to god. it is the strangest relation of a sacrifice that ever was ; here 's not one word of the altar , or offering , or consecration , or the destruction of the sacrifice . you grant the thing sacrificed must be destroyed when it is sacrificed ; i pray you how is this bread destroyed ( save only by the souldiers mouths , which you say came after the sacrifice ? ) pop. the bread possibly was destroyed by putting it in the furnace , and the wine sprinkled upon the furnace , as vasquez answers * . prot. i see it was otherwise in those dayes than now it is . if i thought my bread would be destroyed by putting it into the oven , i assure you , i would never put it in . pop. it must be a sacrifice that is there related ; for it follows , and he was the priest of the most high god. prot. not at all ; for his being priest evidently relates to that which follows , and he blessed him , and received tythes of all : besides , if melchisedeck did here offer a sacrifice , was jesus christ obliged to offer the same kind of sacrifice that he did ? for christ was to offer up himself , heb. 9. 10. ( which none of his types did . ) tell me first , was melchisedeck a type of christ in that action of eating bread and wine ? pop. yes doubtless , and this was the principal thing , in respect of which christ is called a priest after the order of melchisedeck , or else i say nothing . prot. then tell me , how can any man in his wits , believe that st. paul , who spends so much of his epistle to the hebrews ; in comparing christ and melchisedeck , and their priesthood together ; and who picks up the very smallest circumstances , as that he was without father , &c. should not speak one word of this , which ( if you say true ) was the principal thing ? besides all this , if melchisedeck was a type of christ in that action , did christ offer bread and wine as melchisedeck did ? pop. no , but he offered his own body and blood under the appearance of bread and wine . prot. nay , now i see there is no possibility of pleasing you ; for i expected this all along , that christ must needs have offered the same kind of sacrifice that melchisedeck did here : but now you forsake your own argument , and because melchisedeck did offer bread and wine , christ must not offer bread and wine , but something else under those appearances . now i have heard your two principial arguments , i hope you will hear mine also . pop. good reason i should do so . prot. then first , i argue thus , the sacrifice of christ was perfect , and did perfect all believers , heb. 10. 14. and therefore it need not , and ought not to be repeated , for the apostle proves the imperfection of levitical sacrifices , because they were repeated , heb. 10. 1 , 2. where remission of sin is , there is no more offering for sin , heb. 10. 18. either then remission was not obtained by his once offering , or there must be no more offering ; either christs offering upon the cross was insufficient , or yours in the mass is unnecessary . pop. it is not properly repeated , for it is the same sacrifice , for substance , which was offered upon the cross , and is offered in the mass * . prot. how is it of the same kind , when you say , the one is bloody , the other unbloody ; the one offered by christ , the other by a priest ; but if it were of the same kind , so were the levitical sacrifices , and all had relation to christ ( as you pretend all masses have ) and yet the apostle makes their repetition an evidence of their imperfection , heb. 9. 10. and moreover , the apostle denies not only the repetition of other sacrifices , but also of the same sacrifice , and tells us as plainly ( as man can speak ) that christ was to offer up himself but once , heb. 9. 25 , &c. whereas you wil needs over-rule the apostle , and force christ to offer up himself thousands of times ▪ pop. it is true , there is but one sacrifice of redemption , and expiation for sin , and that was the sacrifice of the cross ; but there are other sacrifices of application to apply that to us . prot. i hope the word , and sacraments , and spirit of christ , are sufficient to apply christs sacrifice ; must we have one sacrifice to apply another ? who ever heard of one plaister made to apply another ? or a ransome paid the second time to apply the former payment ? and you seem to me quite to forget your selves , to destroy the nature of your sacrifice : for the business of a sacrifice is oblation to god , not application to men . besides , i have one argument more which fully satisfies me ; if the mass be a real and proper sacrifice , then the thing sacrificed must be really and properly destroyed ? pop. that i readily grant , as bellarmin a also doth , and indeed so it was in all the sacrifices that ever were offered to god. prot. but surely jesus christ is not destroyed in the mass : is he ? and are your priests the murderers of christ ? pop. he is not so destroyed , for we tell you , it is an unbloody sacrifice ; yet he is in a manner destroy'd by the priest's eating of him : for thereby christ ceaseth to be where he was before , that is , in the species of bread and wine , and the bread and wine are destroyed . prot. call you this a destruction , for one to remove from one place to another , or to cease to be where he was before ? this is ridiculous ; and yet this b fantastical and mock-destruction is all which you can bring , instead of that real destruction , which you confess necessary to the very essence of a sacrifice . and as for the bread and wine they were destroyed by transubstantiation , not by the oblation or sacrifice which comes after it . and now having mentioned that , let us discourse concerning your doctrine of transubstantiation . and first , tell me what is the doctrine of your church ? pop. that the council of trent will inform you , which declareth , that by consecration the whole substance of the bread and wine is converted into the substance of the body and blood of christ a prot. how is it possible for the bread to be converted into christs body , which was made already before the bread ? that christ could turn water into wine was possible , but that he should turn that water into such wine as was in being before that change , this is impossible : but let that go : my next question is , if a christian did actually receive christs body and blood , tell me , what profit hath he by it ? i cannot believe that god would work so many miracles ( as you affirm he doth in this sacrament ) to no purpose : scripture and reason tells me , and your council of trent confesseth b , that the sacrament is a feast for my soul , and not for my body . is it not so ? now , what is my soul the better for eating the very body of christ ? when the woman cryed out to our saviour , c blessed is the womb that thee ; christ replies , yea , rather , blessed are they that hear gods words , and do it : nevertheless , if you can solidly prove it , i will receive it ; therefore bring forth your principal arguments for it . pop. i will do so , and our church proves this point , especially , from two places of scripture , john 6. and the words of institution . i begin with the sixth chapter of john , where our saviour oft tells us , that the bread which he gives is his flesh , &c. prot. i have heard , that divers of your learned doctors confess this chapter speaks not of the sacrament : is it so ? pop. i will not dissemble with you . that was the opinion of biel a , cardinal cusanus b , cajetan , c , and tapperus d , and divers others . prot. certainly , this argument is not likely to convince a protestant which could not satisfie your own ablest schollars . but i will not press that farther . tell me then , do you judge that christ speaks here of a bodily eating and drinking of his very flesh and blood ? pop. we do so . prot. i confess some of the antient ; were of your mind , i mean the jews . but with submission , i am rather of christs opinion , who plainly destroys that gross and carnal sense , telling them , it is the spirit that quickneth , the flesh profits nothing , vers . 63. again , doth not christ press this as a necessary , and present duty , upon all the jews that then heard him ? pop. that must be granted . prot. then certainly christ speaks not of the sacrament which was not then instituted , and therefore they could not partake of it . i demand further , is this sacrament of such efficacy , that all that receive it are saved ; and of such necessity , that all that do not take it are damned ? pop. no , our church utterly condemns both those opinions . port : but this eating of christs flesh is such , that christ saith , all that eat it are saved , v. 24. and all that do not eat it are damned , v. 53. therefore surely he speaks not of a sacramental eating : besides the whole laity are utterly undone , if your sense of this chapter be true ; for i find that drinking of christs blood is no less necessary to life eternal , than eating of his flesh ; and therefore woe to them to whom you do not allow to drink of the cup in the sacrament . i am told this objection is so considerable , that it forced divers of your doctors ( sore against their will ) to forsake this argument ; and therefore this will not do your work : but i presume you have better arguments . pop. we have so . i shall urge but one , which is of its self sufficient , from the plain words of institution , this is my body . methinks the very hearing of them read , should convince you , if you would take the words in their plain and proper sense , and not devise i know not what figures and tropes . prot. if it were true that christ did turn the bread into his body by saying these words , this is my body , yet how doth it follow , that the priest by reciting these words , worketh the same effect , any more than a priest , every time he reads those words , let there be light , doth make light ; because god did make it by those words : or than he raiseth a dead man , every time he reads those words of christ , lazarus , come forth . moreover , i have heard that divers of your most learned doctors confess , that this place doth not , nor indeed , any other place of scripture , prove transubstantiation . i have heard three cardinals named , viz. cajetan a and our bishop of rochester b and cameracensis c , and divers famous schoolmen , as scotus and biel , of whom this is known , and durandus d , and ocham e , and melchior canus f , and vasquez g , and the great cardinal perron professeth , that he believes transubstantiation , not by vertue of any necessary consequence , or reason , alledged by their doctors ; but by the words of christ , as they are expounded by tradition h : and bellarmin himself confesseth , this opinion is not improbable i . methinks so many learned mens forsaking this argument ( who doubtless would have been right glad if it had been solid , and imployed all their wits to search out the strength of it ) is to me a convincing evidence of its weakness and vanity , as also of the badness of your cause , that can find no better argument ; yet i am willing to hear what you can say . pop. this then i say , that these words , this is my body , are to be taken in their proper , and not in a figurative sense : for surely christ would speak plainly to the understanding of his disciples , especially when he was so near his death , and making his last will and testament , and instituting the sacrament ; in such cases men use to speek plainly . prot. i readily grant that christ did speak plainly and intelligibly : but tell me , is not that plain enough , when we take the words as they are commonly used in scripture ? pop. i must needs grant that ; but this is not the present case . prot. but it is ; for we can give you scores of instances , as you very well know where the word is , is so taken : nor is any thing more frequent in scripture , the seven kine , and so the seven ears of corn , are seven years , gen. 4. 12 , 18. the stars are the angels of the churches , rev. 1. 20. the seven heads are seven mountains , rev. 17. 9. so christ saith , i am the way , the door , &c. so zach. 5. 7 , 8. this woman is wickedness ; and a thousand such expressions . how do you understand these places ? pop. the sense is plain , they signifie those things ; the stars signifie the angels , and so for the rest . prot. then certainly we have the advantage of you in this point , for we take is for signifies , ( as you confess it is commonly taken ) nor have the jews ( as i have been assured by learned men ) any proper word for signifie ( as the greeks and lutines have ) but generally express it in this manner : but you must take it ( if the particle this denote the bread , as i shall plainly prove it doth ) for is converted into ; a sense which you cannot give one example of in all scripture . i see it was not without reason that you took the interpretation of scripture into the churches hands ▪ for if you had left it in gods hands , and left one scripture to do that friendly office to expound another , you had certainly lost an article of your faith : and whereas you say that christ would speak so as the disciples might understand him , that sufficiently shews , that yours is not the true sense ; for they could never have understood it , and would doubtless have been as much puzled then , as all the world now is , to apprehend that the body of christ was contained under the species of bread and wine , invisibly and undiscoverably , after the manner of a spirit , to conceive of a body without bigness , long without length , broad without breadth , broken whilest it remains whole ( all which you profess to believe . ) this is to turn christs plain speech into a bundle of riddles ; and to call this the plain sense of the words which is ( as you see ) a heap of figures , is a greater figure than all the rest ; but they did well enough understand the words in our sense , because they were well read in scripture , wherein , as you grant , that sense of the words is usual . pop. if we grant it is used so in other cases , yet not in sacramental texts , for there christ would speak properly . prot. yes , it is usual even in the sacraments ; is not circumcision called the covenant ? this is my covenant , gen. 17. 10. though proprerly it was not the covenant , but the seal of it , rom. 4. 11. is not the lamb called the lords passeover ? exod. 12. though all men knew it was not the lamb , nor the ceremony of eating it , which was or could be properly the lords passing over the houses of the israelites ; thus 1 cor. 10. the rock ( that followed the israelites ) is christ , though it was so only figuratively and sacramentally . moreover , i am told , that divers of your own brethren acknowledge figures here . tapperus saith , it is not inconvenient to admit of tropes here , provided they be such as do not exclude the true presence of christs body a . and that the bishop of eureux owns three figures in the words of this sacrament b ; and that suarez c , bellarmine d , and divers others confess as much . pop. it is true , they do say so . prot. besides , you cannot think strange , if there be figures in the first part , this is my body , since it is most apparent there are figures in the last part , this is the new testament in my bloud . here are not one , but divers figures in it . the cup you grant is taken for the liquor in it , there is one figure : the wine in the cup is taken for the bloud , which was not in the cup ; there is a strange figure indeed ( logicians call it non-sense . ) this cup , or wine , or bloud ( if you please ) is the new testament or covenant ; whereas it was only the seal of the new testament , as is most manifest , because it is called , the bloud of the new testament , and the new testament in my bloud . besides other strange figures , which i shall have occasion to speak to by and by . here is figure upon figure , and yet you have the impudence to reproach us for putting in but one figure , which you confess to be very frequent . wonder o heavens , and judge o earth , whether these men do not strain at gnats , and swallow camels ! and nothing doth more confirm the truth in this point , than to consider into what absurdities this doctrine hath forced you , even to say , that the bloud of christ is properly the covenant or testament * : and that there are two sorts of christs bloud , the one in the cup , the other shed on the cross a : and that the bloud of christ is shed in the sacrament , and yet never stirreth out of the veins : did ever god or man speak of such bloud-shed ? therefore for shame never charge us with understanding this text figuratively . but again , let me ask you , will you affirm that these words , this is my body , are to be taken properly ? doth your church understand them so ? pop. yes surely , or else we do ill to reproach you for taking them improperly . prot. the words are not true in a proper sense , nor indeed do you understand them so . pop. make that good , and i must give up this cause for ever . prot. first , for the word this , it is most evident that it is meant of bread : it is impossible for words to express any thing more plainly , than that by this , is meant the bread. it is said expresly , that christ took bread and brake it , and gave it , and said , take eat , this is my body . where this necessarily relates to that which christ , took , and brake , and gave . after christ came the apostles , and particularly saint paul , and he expounds the mind of christ ( and i hope you do not think he was so bad an expositor , that his comment was harder than the text ) and he tells us thrice in a breath that it is bread , 1 cor. 11. 26. as oft as you eat this bread , and whosoever shall eat this bread , and so let him eat of that bread. and again , 1 cor. 10. 16. the bread which we break , is it not the communion of the body of christ ? and the participation of the sacrament is called , breaking of bread , acts 2. 46. & 20. 7. which your authors undertand of the sacrament : and besides this , whatever it is , is broken , as it follows ; but you dare not say , christs body is broken . now then , since it is most evident , that this is meant of the bread , i hope , you will not say , this is properly christs body . pop. no : we are not so absurd to say , this bread is christs body , for that is false and against common sense as bellarmine well saith a . prot. what then do you mean by the word this ? pop. by this , i understand neither the bread nor christs body , but in general this substance which is contained under this species b . prot. what do you mean by that ? i pray you tell me , do you believe that there are any more substances under those species , besides the bread first , and afterward the body of christ ? do not you profess , that as soon as ever it ceaseth to be bread , it becomes the body of christ ? pop. we do so . prot. then surely if it be a substance , according to you , it must be either bread , or the body of christ ; but you allow it to be neither , and therefore it is no substance at all . in the next place , for the word is , i have shewed , you do not understand that properly neither : but for the word body also , do you understand that properly ? pop. yes without doubt . prot. i am told that your church professeth to believe that christs body is there after the manner of a spirit , taking up no room ; that head , hands , feet , are altogether in the least crumb of the host. is this true ? pop. yes , we all agree in that . prot. then sure i am , the word body is most improperly taken : a learned man well observes , that you plead for the propriety of words , and destroy the propriety of things ; * how can you say that it is properly a body , which wants the essential property of a body ; which is , to have quantity and take up room : take away this , and the body may be properly a spirit ; for it is that only which differenceth it from a spirit : so now i see you neither do , nor can understand these words properly ; and upon the whole matter that this doctrine is false , and your proofs most weak and frivolous , you shall see that i have better arguments against your doctrine than you have for it . pop. i pray you let me hear them , but be brief in them . prot. i have only three arguments , your doctrine is against sense , against reason , and against scripture . pop. let me see how you will make these things good ? prot. for the first i ask you , if i am as sure that your doctrine of transubstantiation is false , as you are sure that the christian religion is true ; will you desire more evidence ? pop. if i should , i were an unreasonable person . prot. and have you any greater assurance now of the truth of the christian religion , than you could have had , if you had lived in christs dayes ? pop. that were impudence to affirm : but what do you mean ? prot. if you had lived then , what greater evidence could you have had of it , than what your senses afforded ; for since the great argument for christianity ( as all agree ) was the words that christ spake and the works that christ did ; how could you be sure that he did so speak , or so work , if you may not credit the reports of your eyes and ears ? this was s. lukes great evidence of the truth of what he writes , that it was delivered to him by eye-witnesses , s. luke 1. 1 , 2. and st. johns what we have seen with our eyes , and our hands have handled of the word of life : 1 john 1. and st. paul for christs resurrection , that he was seen of cephas , then of the twelve , then of the 500 , 1 cor. 15. 5 , 6. even thomas his infidelity yielded to this argument , that if he did thrust his hand into christs side he would believe , john 20. 25. christ judged this a convincing argument , when the apostles thought he had been a spirit , handle me and see , for a spirit hath not flesh and bones , as you see me have , luk. 24. 39. are these things true ? pop. i cannot deny it , they are not yours , but scripture assertions . prot. and do not all my senses tell me that this is bread ? pop. i must grant that , but your sense is deceived . prot. then your senses also might have been deceived about the words and works of christ , and so the greatest evidence of christian religion is lost : but for my part it makes me abhor your religion ; that so you may but seem to defend your own opinions , you care not if you shake the pillars of christianity : my second argument is , that your doctrine of transubstantiation is against reason . tell me i pray you , do you think any of the articles of christian religion are contrary to reason ? pop. no , they may be above reason , but god forbid i should be so injurious to christianity to say any of them are against reason . prot. but your doctrine is as much against reason as sense , for it makes you believe things absolutely impossible , and gross contradictions . pop. you may imagine many things impossible that really are not so : but if you can prove any real impossibilities which this doctrine forceth us to believe i must yield , for we joyn with you in condemning the lutheran opinion that christs body is every where , because it is an impossibility , and we therefore expound those words , i am the vine , i am a door , &c. figuratively , because it is impossible for him who is a man , to be a vine , or a door . a prot. and it is no less impossible for the bread to be christs body : why might not the vine , ( as well as the wine ) be by transubstantiation , converted into christs substance ? i think the mother is as good as the daughter , and especially since christ saith , i am the true vine , you might as well have devised another transubstantiation to make christs words good , i know what work you would have made of it , if he had said , this is my trve body , or my trve blood. but to give that over , i will shew you , that there is such an heap of contradictions , as never met together , in the most absurd opinion that ever was in the world : i profess ( when i set my wit at work ) i cannot devise greater absurdities than you believe . tell me , do you hold that the whole body of christ is present in every crumb of the bread , and in every drop of the wine ? pop. yes doubtless , christ is there entire , and undivided . prot. i suppose you believe that christs body is in heaven , in such a proportion , or bigness , as he had upon earth . pop. no doubt of that . prot. then the same body of christ is bigger than it self , and longer than its self , and which is yet worse , christ is divided from himself . i know not what can be more impossible , than to say , that all christ is at rome , and all at london , and all in heaven , and yet not in the places between . pop : all this is by gods almighty power . prot. then i suppose , by the same almighty power , it is possible for any other man to be in so many places ; for it matters not that christ be invisibly in so many places , and another should be there visibly , or that christ is there in so little a bulk , and another must be in a greater . pop. i must needs grant that , and i affirm it is not absolutely impossible for any other man to be at several places at once by gods power . prot. then mark what monsters follow from this : suppose now iohn to be by divine power at the same time at rome , at paris , and at london ; where ever iohn is alive , i suppose , he hath a power to move himself . pop. that must needs be , else he were not a living creature . prot. then iohn at rome may walk towards london , and iohn at london may walk toward rome , and so they may meet ( shall i say , one the other ? ) and you may be sure it will be a merry meeting : it were worth enquiry , how long they will be e're they come together . then again , at rome all the parts of iohn may be excessively hot , and at london excessively cold , and at paris neither hot nor cold : this is beyond all the romances that ever were devised . besides , iohn may be sorely wounded at rome , and yet at london he may sleep in a whole skin ; iohn may be feasting at rome , and fasting at london in the same moment . i might be infinite in reckoning the horrid absurdities of this doctrine ; he that can believe these things , will stick at nothing . pop. you talk at this rate , because you measure god by your selves , whereas he can do more than you or i can think . prot. there are some things which it is no dishonour to god , to say he cannot do them , because they are either sinful ( so god cannot lie ) or absolutely impossible ; god himself cannot make a man to be alive and dead at the same time : god cannot make the whole to be less than a part of it : he cannot make three to be more than threescore : he cannot make a son to beget his father : he cannot make the same man to be born at two several times ( as your authors confess ) ; and therefore in like manner he cannot make the same body to be in two several places ; for this is not one jot less impossible than the other . pop. these indeed are great difficulties to humane reason , but reason is not to be believed against scripture . prot. true , but this is your hard hap ; this doctrine of yours is against scripture as well as reason , and indeed against many articles of religion . and first , it is against the scripture , in as much as it is highly dishonourable to christ , whose honour is the great design of the scripture . what a foul dishonour is it to him to subject him to the will of every mass priest , who , when he pleaseth , can command him down into the bread ? what a dishonour is it , that the very body of christ may be eaten by rats or worms , and may be cast up by vomit , and the like , as your aquinas affirms a . and that your church in her missals hath put this amongst other directions , that if worms or rats have eaten christ body , they must be burned ; and if any man vomit it up , it must be eaten again , or burned , or made a relick ; b and yet this is no more than your doctrine will force you to own : for if you will believe christs words , in one place as well as in another , he assureth us , that whatsoever ( without exception ) entreth into the mouth , goeth into the belly , and is cast forth into the draught , matth. 15. 17. pop. this is no more dishonourable to christ than that the fleas might such his blood when he was upon earth . prot. you mistake wofully ; for though in the dayes of his flesh , it was no dishonor to him ( and it was necessary for us ) that he suffered so many indignities , and died , and was crucified , yet now , that he is risen from the dead , he dies no more , rom. 6. and it is a dishonour to him to be crucified again , and to be brought back to those reproaches which he long since left ; and all this to no purpose , and without any profit to us , ( as i shewed . ) again , the scripture approveth and useth this argument , that a body cannot be in two places at once : it is the angels argument , he is not here , for he is risen , mat. 28. 6. sufficiently implying , that he could not be here and there too : or must we say , that the angels argument is weak or deceitful , that yours may be strong and true ? pop. he meant he was not there visibly . prot. it seems , if a man being sought after should hide himself with you in some corner or hole in your room , and the pursuers should ask for him , you could answer with good conscience , he is not here , because he is invisible . our blessed saviour every where makes these two opposite , his being in the world , and going to heaven , joh. 13. 1. the hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the father : it seems you could have taught him the art of going thither , and keeping here too . i promise you , i durst not venture to buy an estate of any of you , for it seems you could tell how to sell it to me , and keep it to your selves . you may remember , once you and i made our selves merry with a passage that one used in a speech ; that since he could not give content , neither by going nor staying , hereafter he would neither go nor stay . it seems you have as good a faculty as he had ; for you know how a man may both go from a place , and stay in it , at the same time . i know not what can be more plain if you did not shut your eyes : christ saith expresly , me you have not alwayes , that is , here , mat. 26. 11. besides , your doctrine destroyes the truth of christs humane nature . i read of christ , that he was in all points like unto us , sin only excepted ; his body was like ours , and therefore it is impossible it should be in a thousand several places at once ( as you pretend it is ; ) this turns christs body into a spirit : nay , indeed you make his body more spiritual than a spirit ; for a spirit cannot be in several places divided from it self . the soul of man , if it be entire both in the whole and in every part of the body , yet it is not divided from it self , nor from its body , nor can it be in two several bodies at the same time , as all confess ; and much less can it be in ten thousand bodies at once ( as by your argument undoubtedly it may ) . when ever an angel comes to earth , he leaves heaven : and so this every way destroyes the truth of christs humane body . pop. much of what you say was true of christs body in the dayes of his infirmity ; but when he was risen from the dead , then he received a spiritual body , as it is said , ours shall be at the resurrection , 1 cor. 15. prot. to this i answer , first , that you ascribe these monstrous properties to christs body before its resurrection ; for you say , the flesh and bloud of christ were really in the sacrament , which the disciples received while christ lived . secondly , christs resurrection , though it heightned the perfections , yet it did not alter the nature and properties of his body , nor give it the being of a spirit ; for after he was risen , he proves that he was no spirit , by this argument , handle me and see , for a spirit hath not flesh and bones , as you see me have , luke 24. 39. by this it appears , that your doctrine destroys the truth of christs humanity , at least it destroys the main evidence of it ( against those who affirmed , that christ had only a phantastical body ) namely , that he was seen , and felt , and heard ; for you say , sense is not to be believed . again , you destroy the truth of christs ascension into heaven . for christ is not ascended if he hath not left the world ; for these two are joyned together , ioh. 16. 28. i leave the world , and go to the father : but if you say true , he hath not left the world , but is here in every sacrament ; nothing can be more plain , than that christ did visibly and locally leave this world when he went up into heaven , acts 1. 9 , 10. that being once there , the heavens must receive ( or contain ) him , until the time of the restitution of all things , acts 3. 21. and that at the last day he shall come visibly and locally from heaven , 2 thess. 1. 7. but that he should come down a thousand times in a day , at the command of every mass-priest , is such a dream , as the scripture speaks not one syllable of , nor can any rational man believe it : moreover , your doctrine destroys the very essence of a sacrament , which consists of two parts , an outward element or sign , and the inward grace signified by it ; and this i am told your doctors acknowledge a i shall forbear mentioning further particulars , these are more than enough to shew the falseness of this doctrine of transubstantiation . in the next place , pray let me hear what you have to say for your great article of praying to saints . but , first , i am told divers of your own authors confess , it is not necessary to pray to saints , but only convenient : is it so ? pop. it is true ; and , i must confess , the council of trent do only say , it is good and profitable . b prot. then sure , i will never run the hazard of committing idolatry for an unnecessary work . but i am further told , that your great scholar and wit , perron confesseth , that he found no footsteps of this praying to saints , either in scripture , or in the fathers , before the four first councils , ( which was some hundreds of years after christ. c he confessed likewise to isaac casaubone , ( as he told our bishop andrews ) that he himself never prayed to saints , but only as he went in procession that is for form sake . andr. in opusc. posthuma , and that salm●ron , and cotton , a and eccius say as much in effect , viz. that there is no command for this in either testament . is it so ? pop. it is true ; and bellarmine confesseth , that the saints began to be worshipt , not so much by any law , as by custome b . prot. methinks these two considerations should startle you , that it is both unnecessary and uncommanded . i perceive i am not like to hear scripture arguments in this point . pop. some of our authors do urge some scriptures , but you tie me up to use but few , and those the best arguments ; and therefore i will rather urge other considerations . 1. humility and discretion adviseth us to this duty , for i suppose , if you have any request to the king , you do not sawcily rush into his presence , but make use of some of his courtiers . prot. but tell me , i pray you , if a king not only allows , but commands all his subjects to call upon him in the day of trouble , to come to him freely , and upon all occasions , to pour out their complaints to him , not doubting but he will receive and answer them , and this king were always at perfect leisure to hear their requests , and the oftner they come to him , the welcomer they are ; and he appoints his own son the master of the requests , from time to time , to receive all the petitions of his subjects ; and both the king and the prince are ten thousand times more compassionate than the courtiers ; would you not in this case account him a fool ( and somewhat else too ) that should spend his time in petitioning this and the other inferiour courtier to gain access to the king ? pop. i cannot deny that . prot. then your church hath need to make use of that counsel , james 1. 5 : if any man want wisdom , let him ask it of god ; they rather choose to ask it of saints , and that is the reason they go without it . most plain it is , this is the very case , and such a king god in all points is , and infinitely better than all this , and such a master of requests christ is : but for the humility you talk of , i think therein you do prudently ; for i remember the worship of angels came in under a shew of humility , col. 2. 18. and the door being once opened , it was discreetly done to bring in the worship of saints there too : let me hear what else you can say ? pop. we use to pray to living saints , why not as well to departed and glorified saints ; s. paul writes to the thessalonians , pray for us ; col. 4. 3. prot. surely scripture makes a sufficient difference ; you meet with very many commands and examples of prayers or addresses to the living , not one to the dead . besides , you know the living hear your prayers , you know nothing that the dead do so : besides , i trow , you do not pray to the living in such manner as you do to the dead ; you do not religiously worship the living ( and about that all our question is , ) did st. paul invocate the colossians , because he desired their prayers ? can you say any thing more ? pop. the saints in glory pray for us , and therefore we may pray unto them . prot. will you affirm , that i may and ought to worship , and pray unto all those that pray for me ? pop. no : then our churches practice would condemn me ; for we grant , that the fathers in their limbus did , and so those in purgatory do , pray for us , and so do all the living saints upon earth , yet we do not allow prayers unto them . prot. then your argument is lost , from their intercession to your invocation . pop. let me hear , if you have any better arguments against this practice . prot. you shall . 1. since all grant that prayer is a part of gods worship , then your praying to saints is directly contrary to gods command , deut. 6. 13. mat. 4. 10. thou shalt worship the lord thy god , and him only shalt thou serve . pop. we do not worship the saints , as god , with the highest kinde of worship , which is proper to god , but only with an inferiour kind of religious worship , and therefore do not transgress this command . prot. the devil himself did not require the highest worship , as i shewed before ; yet christ thought that inferiour worship a breach of that law . nor did those angel-worshippers , mentioned , col. 2. worship the angels , as god , with the highest worship , for they were either jews , or judaizing christians , ( both of which never pretend to equalize the angels with god , but judged them far inferiour to god , and worshipped them accordingly ) yet nevertheless are they condemned by s. paul for giving divine honour to the creature . next , this praying to saints is an high dishonour to jesus christ. god hath made him the only mediatour , 1 tim. 2. 5. he hath invited all persons to come freely and boldly to him , hath promised those that come to him , he will in no wise cast out , ioh. 6. 37. why do not you then go immediately to christ ? this is a manifest questioning either of his power , or faithfulness , or goodness . pop. it is one of the slanders of your ministers , that we dishonour christ ; we only pray to saints to pray to christ. prot. all your books of devot on confute that pretence ; for you profess in your mass-book a they help you by their merits , as well as by their prayers . bellarmine affirmeth that the saints in some sort are our redeemers : b is this no more than only to pray for you ? is it no more than this , when you pray thus to the virgin mary ; do thou protect us , drive away evil from us , and require good things for us : and in right of a mother , command thy son ? is it no more than this , when you say the lord was with her , ( i. e. the virgin ▪ mary ) and she with the lord in the same work of redemption : and when esa. 63. is objected , i trod the wine press alone , and there was no man with me ; they answer cunningly , true lord , there was no man with thee , but there was a woman with thee ; c is it no dishonour to christ that your famous biel saith , that god hath given the virgin mary half of his kingdom ; and that whereas he hath justice and mercy , he kept justice to himself , and granted mercy to the virgin ? d in my opinion they shall do well to take in christ for a share in the mercy . is it no dishonour to christ to say , that prayers which are made to , and delivered by the saints , are better than those by christ , as salmeron saith ? e is it no dishonour to christ , that barradius the jesuite asketh of christ , why he took not his mother up with him when he ascended up to heaven ? and frames this answer ; f peradventure , lord , it was lest thy heavenly courtiers should be in doubt , whether to go out to meet thee , their lord , or her , their lady is it no dishonour to christ , that carolus scribanius ( otherwise clarus bonarscius ) professeth , he cannot tell which to prefer , the mothers milk , or the sons bloud g . i believe neither christ nor his mother will give these men thanks for this another day ; and all these passages are not in obscure authors , that privily steal abroad into the world ; but in eminent persons , and books licensed by the approbation , and according to the orders of your church : and besides , your church owns them , in that she doth not blot them out , nor put them into her expurgatory indices . moreover , i must pray to none , but those in whom i must trust , rom. 10. 13 , 14. how shall they call on him , in whom they have not believ●d ? and trust is gods prerogative incommunicable to any creature , ier. 17. 5. cursed is he that trusteth in man. again , i must pray to none , but to whom i may pray in faith , and without doubting ; and ( upon good grounds believing that i shall receive ) mat. 21. 22. iames 1. 5 , 6. but i am not sure that the saints do hear my prayers , or can and will grant them . pop. the saints in glory do know what we pray to them . prot. how doth that appear ? pop. there are several wayes whereby they know these things , but i adhere to what bellarmine saith , that they knew this by revelation from god. prot. you should not only say this , but prove it . one of your infallible popes gregory denies this , no scripture informs you thus much ; nay , that sufficiently implies , that the saints do not particularly know , nor mind the concerns of this world . god tells iosiah , 2 chr. 34. 28. thou shalt be gathered to thy grave in peace , neither shall thine eyes see the evil i will bring upon this place , eccl. 9. 5. the dead know not any thing of the particular occurrences of this life , see iob 14. 21. i am sure these are ten times better arguments than what you bring for the contrary . and in a word , its gods incommunicable prerogative to know the heart and secret prayers , 2 chron. 6. 30. mat. 6. 6. so upon the whole matter , i conclude ; and now by the vanity of your arguments and answers , do fully discern the falseness of this opinion , and the wickedness of the practice of calling upon saints : let me hear whether you have any better evidences for the worship of images ; i hope you have ; and i am sure you need very clear and strong arguments for that practice , or else you are guilty of that damnable sin of idolatry . pop. we have very good arguments for that : i will use only two , and those our strongest arguments , as you desire . first , we have the example and command of god for it : he caused the images of the cherubims to be made and put upon the ark which was worshipped : psal. 98. if the ark was to be worshipped because it represented gods footstool , much more may an image be worshipped ; as our mr. bishop rightly argued * . prot. i suppose if this be a good argument to us now , it was so to the iews formerly ; for length of time doth not turn false arguments into true ones ; tell me therefore if you had lived when the law , exod. 20. was newly given , and one had perswaded you to worship images by your own argument , what would you have answered ? pop. i would have said , it doth not follow that because the ark was to be worshipped ( which god commanded them to worship ) therefore images were to be worshipped ( which god forbad them to worship . ) prot. good sir , bestow this answer ( as a token from me ) upon any of your brethren that shall argue so absurdly : besides , it seems very unlikely to me , that the cherubims were ordained to be worshiped by the people , because they were never seen by the people . you put the images which you worship in the most visible and conspicuous places . pop. yet no man could worship the ark but he must worship the cherubims , for they were over the ark. prot. in that case the cherubims were not at all worshipped , unless you will say , that he that worships one of your wooden images , worships also the spider , ( which peradventure is paying its devotion there , and got into the saints mouth . ) besides , it doth not appear that the ark it self was worshipped , for that also was not so much as seen by the people , therefore not like to be worshipped . all that we read is , that the israelites did and ought to worship god toward the ark ; and so they are said to worship god toward the whole temple , and toward ierusalem , and towards the holy mountain , and towards heaven . yet i presume you will not say all these places were to be worshiped , and if god was to be worshiped towards these places ; because he tells us expresly , his special presence was there . what is this to images ? which god banisheth from his house and presence : and to conclude this , i pray you tell me , is it lawful to worship every place where god is in a special manner present ? pop. i conceive it is . prot. then it is lawful to worship every religious man in the world ; it is true , your great vasquez professeth , that a man may worship a stone , or a straw , or any creature where god is , for god is there according to this essence . a by which argument it seems christ might have worshipped the devil ; for the essence of god being every-where , must needs be in him . but what , i pray you , is your other argument ? pop. the honour of god requires the worship of his images , for that redounds to god ; as if i honour a prince , i will honour his picture ; and we shew our reverence to the king in being uncovered in his presence chamber , though the king be not there . prot. tell me , i pray you , if a king forbid any pictures of himself to be made , or set up ; if any over-officious subject should , notwithstanding this , set up the kings picture , pretending to do it in respect to the king ; would the king esteem himself honoured or dishonoured by it ? pop. in that case certainly the king is dishonoured , when his commands are broken , and his authority despised . prot. you say right . and so god will give you little thanks for breaking his commands , upon pretence of his service . if a king require such reverence to be given to his presence-chamber , it is fit that he should be obeyed ( seeing it is only a civil , and not a religious respect : ) and if god forbid any such reverence , any religious worship should be given to any graven images , good reason his prohibition too should be obeyed . you talk of honouring god , but for the way or means of honouring god , whether it be most reasonable to take an estimate from the rules and practices of all former idolaters ( who have all justified their idolatry from this pretence of honouring god ) or from the commands of gods , word , and the practices of the godly jews before christ , and godly christians , and fathers , for some hundreds of years after christ ( who are all known to detest all manner of worship of images ) a i leave to any indifferent person to judge : besides , if you will needs testifie your respect to god , by honouring his images , what a madness is it to confine this honour to dead images of wood or stone , and to deny it to his saints upon earth , who are his living , and far more noble and express images . pop. since you scorn my arguments , for the worship of images , let me hear your arguments against it ? prot. my first argument is this , the holy scripture condemns it as idolatry . pop. we have images in our churches only as remembrancers ( to put us in mind of worthy and excellent persons ) but not as objects of worship . prot. no friend , it is not that time of day : you cannot now deceive us with such foolish excuses , for your councils of nice and trent do both command the worshipping of images , and all your authors plead for this . pop. well , but this i am sure is true , we do not worship the images , but only god by them , and in them ; we worship them only as representations of god or christ , &c. and the honour passeth from them to god. prot. that cannot acquit you , neither before god nor man. micah and his mother were guilty of idolatry , yet the silver was dedicated to the lord ( jehovah ) to make a graven image , judg. 17. 3. also iudg. 18. 5 , 6. and the israelites are charged with idolatry in the worshiping of the golden calf , acts 7. 41. 1 cor. 10. 7. and yet they could not be so brutish , as to think that golden calf , which they brought out of egypt in their ear-rings , was that god which brought them out of egypt with strong hand . pop. but they said , these be thy gods o israel , which brought thee up out of the land of egypt . prot. you use also to call an image by the name of him whom it represents ; you commonly say , this is the blessed virgin , or s. matthew , &c. when you mean , 't is only their image , and so it cannot be strange to you , that they express themselves in the same manner . besides aaron himself proclaims the feast of the calf in these words , tomorrow is a feast to iehovah . the heathens also excused their idolatry by this very pretence . so celsus b and other said ( as the antient fathers tell us ) we do not worship the images of gold or brass , &c. as believing them to be gods ; but we worship the gods in them , and by them . pop. they worshiped wicked men ; but we worship only holy men , and the friends of god , as such , and because they are such , and their images , and therefore are not guilty of idolatry . prot. then saint peter , acts 10. and the angel , rev. 22. and saint paul , acts 14. might have received that adoration ( as being the friends of god ) which they so utterly rejected . moses was the friend of god , yet god hid away his body , lest the israelites should worship him . and i have heard that the fathers charged the collyridians with idolatry , for worshiping of the virgin mary ; c and the arrians for worshipping christ , whom they believed to be but a creature ( though all agreed they were the friends of god. ) i suppose if any man should attempt to give the honour , proper to the king , to his brother , or friend , this would not excuse them from treason ; nor will it excuse any adulteress that she lay with her husbands dearest friend or relation . again , it matters not much to this point , for what reason you worship images : the only question is , whether you do worship images ? for the very doing of that ( whatsoever pretences it may have ) is idolatry . besides , if you worshipped god alone , and not the image , your excuse would have some colour ; but it is most evident , that you worship not only god , but the image too . i am told that your own azorius affirms , that it is the constant opinion of your divines , that the image is to be honored , or worshipped , with the same honour and worship which is given to him whose image it is . a and that cajetan b and gregory de valentia , c and costerus d affirm as much . and that your bellarmin expresly disputes for this , that images are not only to be worshipped as they are exemplars , but also properly and by themselves , so as the worship may be terminated in them . e are these things true ? pop. i cannot deny but they are . prot. then i see the vanity of your pretences , and that you only seek to raise a mist before the eyes of ignorant people ; for in truth you worship the image it self , though happily not for its self : as if a heathen emperor commanded his subjects religiously to worship such a vice-gerent of his ; no man , who did worship that vice-gerent , could deny that he worshipped him , though he did it only for the emperours sake . tell me , i pray you , do you not hold , that there are two kinds of religious worship ; namely , absolute , ( which you give to god or the saints ) and relative , ( which you give to their images ) ? pop. i must own it . prot. then it is horrible impudence to say , you do not give worship to the images , since you give one of these two kinds unto them , and unto them only : besides , if all you say were true , this would not acquit you from idolatry ; for your church professeth and commandeth the worship of the images of saints , as well as of god and christ ; and since it is idolatry to give divine honour to any creature ( as i before proved ) you are no less guilty in giving it to the saints themselves , than to their images , and so you are double-dy'd idolaters . my second argument is taken from the second commandment , thou shalt not make any graven image . but first , i pray you , tell me true , hath your church left out this second commandment in divers of her breviaries and offices of prayer , or do our ministers slander them ? i hear ; that in the hours of our lady , printed at paris , an 1611. the commandments of the first table are set down in these words , and no other . 1. commandment . i am the lord thy god , thou shalt not have nor worship any other god but me . 2. commandment . thou shalt not take the name of the lord thy god in vain . 3. commandment . remember to keep holy the sabbath day and feasts . and that the council of ausburg , ann. 1548. delivering the commandments in dutch for the people , leave out the mention of images ; and , that their cheat might not be discovered , that the people might have their full number , they make use of the mistake of one of the fathers , and divide the last command into two , against sense and reason , and the practice of the whole ancient church . are these things so ? pop. it is true , it is left out in some of our books , but we leave it in , in all bibles , and divers of our catechisms . prot. very well , i see you had wit in your anger ; i commend your discretion , that you did not your work so grosly , that all the world should cry shame of you : but that you blotted it out in any , is an evidence of your guilt . but what say you to this argument ? pop. then my first answer is , that this command was peculiar to the iews , who were most prone to idolatry * . prot. this is not true . it sufficiently appears that the gentiles were under the obligation of this law , from those punishments which god inflicted upon them for their transgression or breach of it by idolatry , rom. 1. but where there is no law , there is no transgression . besides , christ tell , us , he came not to destroy the law , ( the moral law ) but to fulfil it , mat. 5. 17. belike , you are not of his mind ; and dare you say the jews , as soon they believed in christ , were discharged from this command , and allowed to worship the images which that command forbad ? pop. i will not say so ; but i have a second answer ; the thing prohibited here is not images , ( which are representations of real things ) as you falsly render it , but idols , which are the images of false gods , which are not , and never were in the world . prot. the text its self is full against you ; for the images there prohibited , are not said to be the images of the false gods of the heathens ( whereof many never had any being ) but the images of any thing in heaven or earth , &c. moreover , divers of the heathen gods were men whom they deified . i hope their pictures were pictures of real things , yet these are idols . pop. though they really were men , yet their pictures were made to represent them as gods , and such they were not really , and therefore were idols . prot. the learned heathens knew ( as well as you and i do ) that iupiter , and mars , and mercury , and the rest , were meer men , ( and they smiled at the ignorance of their vulgar , that thought otherwise ) only they thought of them just as you do of the saints , that the great god had put some of his honour upon them , and therefore they might worship them ; you cannot be so silly to think , the learned heathens thought augustus was a god really , when he was dead ; yet their worship of his image was idolatry . and they that worshipped the image of caligula , ( while he lived ) were not so sottish to take him for a god ( whom they knew to be a foolish and wicked man ) yet i hope you will not excuse them from idolatry . but further , as the jews did universally understand this to be a prohibition of all manner of images ; so all the prophets , and christ , and the apostles were so far from reproving them ( which they would have done , if it had been an error ) that they every where strengthen them in this opinion , by declaiming against all worship of images , without any distinction . and tell me , i pray you , if any jew had at that time made ( for instance ) an image of the sun not looking on it as god , but as a glorious creature of god , and therefore fit to be religiously worshipped ( as you think of the saints and angels ) and had bowed down to it and worshipped it : do you think he had not broken this law ? pop. i dare not deny but he had broken it . prot. yet this had been no idol , but an image , according to your sense of it . besides , i find that all manner of images are forbidden , lev. 26. 1. howsoever , to me you seem to venture your salvation upon a nice point , for the hebrew word is neither image nor idol , but pesel , as a divine told me ; and this , i understand is diversly translated ; some render it an image , others an idol . now you ventrue your soul upon it , that the last is the only true translation , which is a dreadful hazard ; because it is otherwise rendred , not only by protestants , but by the most and best ancient interpreters * , even those whom your vulgar translation very oft follows in other places . these render it not an idol , but a graven image ; and the seventy interpreters ( i am assured ) po promiscuously render the word sometimes an idol , sometimes a graven image : nay , more than this , that it may appear how desperately our cause is , i am informed your own vulgar translation ( from which you are obliged not to swerve ) doth frequently render it not idol , but a graven image ( sculptile ) particularly in exod 20. 4. levit. 26. 1. and deut. 4. 16 , 25. and 5. 8. are these things so ? pop. i cannot deny it , for the authors themselves would confute me ; but one thing i have to say , you must understand one scripture so as to agree with another : now i find god himself allows and prescribes some images , as those of the cherubims ; either then he contradicts himself , or he doth not forbid all images , but idols only . prot. though i might say , god may make an exception to some of his laws , when no man can ( as in the case of abraham's offering up isaac , and the israelites , spoiling the aegyptians of their jewels ) yet i need no other answer but this ; i directly deny that here is any contradiction at all : for our question is not about the making of images ( whether by gods order or mans ) but about the worshipping of them . and albeit there were such images made , yet they were not made to be worshipped , as i before proved ; nor was there any danger the people should worship them , because they were not admitted to see them . but i pray you answer me this one question , i am told that divers of your own authors confess , that the jews indeed were ; though christians are not forbidden the use of images by this command . is it so ? pop. these indeed are the words of our famous vasquez , after he hath mentioned divers authors for the contrary opinion , there are ( saith he ) other authors , neither fewer , nor inferiour to them , who are of the contrary opinion , which to me alwayes seemed most probable , to wit , that all the use of images is here forbidden to the jews a , and for this he quotes many of our approved authors ; and salmeron saith no less b . prot. and you need say no more , for then all these authors thought your distinction of image and idol frivolous , and that the word p●sel is meant of any images , and not of idols only , as you foolishly distinguish , and so your principal refuge is lost , and you are convicted idolaters , and then , if you repent not , you know where your portion will be . go now and brag of the safeness of your religion . i see how little it is that you can say for your worship of the dead ( saints and their images ) let me hear whether you have any better arguments for your prayers for the dead and purgatory . pop. i am glad you mention that , since all your divines do agree that prayer for the dead was the practice of the antient church and fathers . prot. if that be true , it is not sufficient for your purpose , for i am fully satisfied that the fathers were not infallible , and your own greatest doctors think so too * . but besides , i am told that their prayers for the dead were quite of another nature than yours , and for other purposes , and they were grounded upon some private opinions of theirs , which you disown ; for they prayed not only for those whom you suppose to be in purgatory , but for those who ( you confess ) many of them never did come there : they pray for all the saints from the righteous abel to this day ; they pray for all their ancestors , patriarchs , prophets , and martyrs , as i have heard it in some of their liturgies . is it so ? pop. it is so . prot. i pray you tell me , what do you pray for the dead ? pop. we pray that god would deliver them from those dreadful pains of purgatory . prot. then if there be no purgatory , the foundation of your prayers for the dead is gone . pop. i grant it . prot. then let us discourse of the most fundamental point , ( as we have hitherto done ) the rest will fall of course . therefore . first , i pray tell me your opinion concerning purgatory . pop. our doctrine in brief is this , that though god freely gives , to all that are truly penitent , forgiveness of their sins , and freedom from eternal death ; yet since they have much venial sin and corruption in them , in which oft-times they die : therefore it is necessary that they should , for the expiation of those sins , and for the satisfaction of gods justice , either do or suffer , such penances , fastings , prayers , &c. as are enjoyned them here , or ( where those are not sufficient ) suffer the pains of purgatorie . prot. i understand your doctrine ; now let me hear two of your strongest arguments to prove it : i hear that bellarmin threatens us , that whosoever doth not believe purgatory , shall be tormented in hell a is it true ? pop. he doth say so , and i am of his mind . prot. then i hope you have very clear arguments for it , because you lay so great a stress upon it . but first , i have heard that this doctrine of purgatory is confessed by divers of your own brethren to be but a new doctrine . is it so ? pop. i will not dissemble with you , several of our doctors have unadvisedly blurted out such expressions as these : our famous english martyr fisher bishop of rochester confesseth , that purgatory was for a long time unknown , and either never or very seldom mentioned among the antient fathers b and alphonsus de castro saith , that many things are known to us , of which the antient writers were altogether ignorant c and amongst them he reckons purgatory , which ( saith he ) the greek writers mentioned not , and even to this day it is not believed by the greek church . prot. i suppose , you do not think all these antient fathers were damned . pop. no , god forbid , for many of them were glorious confessors and martyrs . prot. then i see bellarmines threats are not very formidable . but to let this pass , how do you prove this doctrine ? pop. from plain scripture , 1. from mat. 12. 32. whosoever speaketh against the holy ghost , it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world , neither in the world to come . which clearly implies , that some sins not forgiven in this world , are forgiven in the next , and that must be in purgatory . prot. i pray you tell me , what sins are they which are forgiven in purgatory ? pop. not great and mortal , but small and venial sins , as we all agree . prot. is not blasphemy against the son of man a mortal sin ? pop. yes doubtless , but what of that ? prot. if this text proves the pardon of any sins , it proves the pardon of that sin no less than others , because the sin against the holy ghost is here spoken of as the only sin which is unpardonable in both worlds : besides , christ speaks thus in opposition to a corrupt opinion , which , i have heard , now is , and then was rife among the jews , to wit , that divers of their sins were pardoned after this life , and that this was one of their antient prayers , let my death be the expiation of all my sins : for they thought the sufferings of this life and death , the last of them , did free them from the punishments of the other life : and i have heard that it was one of their sayings , that every israelite hath a part in the future life : are these things so ? pop. to deal freely with you . this is not only true , but it is one of our arguments for purgatory , that jason the cyrenian ( who lived long before christs time ) expresly affirms , that it is profitable to pray for the dead , that their sins may be pardoned , 2 mac. 12. prot. i think that is impertinently alledged for purgatory : for the sin those men died in , was a mortal sin , ( as you confess ) and therefore not pardonable in purgatory . but i thank you for this ; for now i am satisfied that it was an antient opinion among the iews , and so christ had just occasion to use this expression , to confute that vain expectation of theirs . but besides , the meaning of this phrase , shall not be forgiven , is , that it shall be punished in both worlds : this is a frequent phrase in scripture . thus exod. 20. 7. god will not hold him guiltless , that is , he will severely punish : to accept persons in judgment is not good , that is , is very bad ; the father of a fool rejoyceth not , that is , grieveth much . i hear s. chrysostome expounds it thus * , and a greater than he , s. mark 3. 29. he hath never forgiveness , but is in danger of eternal damnation . besides all this , we all agree that there is a kind of forgiveness of sin after this life , and at the day of judgment , acts 3. 19. repent , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the lord ; for then indeed the pardon of sin is compleated and fully manifested . and it is a common phrase in scripture to speak of a thing as done , when it is only declared and manifested , as the apostle saith , those words , psal. 2. this day have i begotten thee , were fulfilled in christs resurrection , act. 13. because that declared him to be the only begotten son o god , as s. paul saith , rom. 1. 4. to which i might add , that by the world to come , christ may very probably understand the time of the new testament , which begun at christs death . the iews ( i hear ) oft use this expression of the days of the messias . nay , the apostle himself doth so , heb. 2. 5. this also i have read , that the iews did generally expect a more plentiful and glorious remission of sins at that time , and so christs meaning may be this , that this blasphemy shall not be forgiven , neither in that time nor state of the church , ( in which christ then was ) nor in the time of the gospel and kingdom of the messias which began at his death ( as i said ) when , though there should be many great sins and sinners pardoned ( as we see there were ) yet this should not . i hope you will not brag much of your argument from this place , let me hear your other place . pop. my second argument is from , 1 cor. 3. 15. he shall be saved , yet so as by fire , that is , the fire of purgatory . prot. it seems you understand this fire properly , which is something strange when the whole place is metaphorical , or figurative ; the gold and silver , hay and stubble , all are metaphorical , and so doubtless is the fire . i hear your bellarmin confesseth , that the fire mentioned , v. 13. the fire shall try every mans work , is not meant of purgatory . pop. he doth indeed say so . prot. that is enough to overthrow this argument , for it is most evident that the fire , vers . 13. and 15. is one and the same . and this fire cannot be purgatory , 1. because it is the fire of the day of judgement , when you confess purgatory ends . d the time of the last judgement is called the day by way of eminency , heb. 10. 25. 2 tim. 1 : 12. 18. and 4. 8. and 1 thess. 5. 4. and the day of revelation or manifestation of all things , ( because then all mens works will be manifested ) and the day wherein christ will come in flaming fire . 2 this fire burns the works of men , only their hay and stubble , not their persons , as your purgatory doth . 3 this fire tries both good and bad . all pass through it . the gold and silver is in this fire , no less than the hay and stubble . pop. how then , i pray you , do you understand this place ? prot. it is a metaphor , or figurative way of speaking , frequent in scripture , and common use . the delivered jews are said to be as a fire brand pluckt out of the burning , amos 4. 11. zach. 3. 2. so here , he shall be saved so as by fire , that is , not without difficulty of loss , and possibly some momentany shame : but howsoever the fire shall burn up his work , and he shall lose that part of his reward . now i have heard your arguments , i hope you will hear m●ne . pop. i am ready to do that . prot. i shall urge only two . first , christ hath fully paid our debt , and satisfied gods justice for all our offences ; and therefore it were injustice in god to require the payment of any part of that debt in purgatory . christ is a compleat saviour , his blood cleanseth us from all sin , 1 joh. 1. 7. he is able ( and sure he is no less willing ) to save to the uttermost , those that come to him , heb. 7. 25. god laid all our sins upon him , isa. 53. and he bare them all in his body , 1 pet. 2. 24. in short , either you make christ but an half saviour and believers wash away part of their own guilt ; or if christ hath fully washed away their guilt , you make god both unmerciful , and unjust , and untrue too ; so dreadfully to punish innocent persons , and those too his own children ( as you acknowledge ) whom he declares he hath freely and fully pardoned ; and to do this for sins , which you confess venial , and such as do not deserve the loss of gods favour , and that without any necessity , this is not the act of a father , especially so tender a father as god is . pop. christ is a sufficient saviour , and hath fully satisfied , but his satisfaction is applied to us by the pains of purgatory . prot. if purgatory only apply christs satisfaction to us , then he satisfied for our temporal as well as our eternal punishments ; and if he did so , surely he did it fully , or not at all . besides , you need not trouble your heads about the application ; god hath provided for us more comfortable means of application , on his part , the word , sacraments , and spirit ; on our parts , faith. you may keep purgatory for your own use , it is not fit you should be pestered with any hereticks there . but was ever such an application of gods grace heard of since the world began ; that god should apply his mercy , and the grace of christ jesus , by such exquisite torments ? this is ( as one truly saith ) as if a man should apply physick by poison , or apply the light of the sun , by putting out our eyes . god deliver us from such appliers . this is as if a prince should pretend a free pardon to a malefactor , and apply it by putting him upon the rack . pop. though christ made satisfaction for the guilt of mortal sins , and eternal punishment , yet he did not for venial sins , nor temporal punishment ; and therefore they must purge out those themselves in purgatory . prot. if it were true that you say , yet there is no need of purgatory ; for this purging worke may be done by temporal afflictions in this life . the truth is , you add sin , to sin , and excuse one errour with another . but what do you mean by venial sins ? pop. we mean such smaller sins as do not exclude a man from gods favour , nor from heaven . prot. then surely you have very slight thoughts of sin , of god , and of his law , that can so judge of such an horrid evil as sin. scripture fully condemns this doctrine . it tells me that the wages of sin ( all sin , without any difference ) is death , even that death which is opposite to eternal life , rom. 6. 23. that he that shall break the least of gods commands , and teach men so , ( though peradventure he do it ignorantly and so according to your opinion , it is a venial sin ) shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven ; that is , he shall have no portion there . it tells me , cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them , gal. 3. 10. and he speaks of that curse which christ underwent for us , and redeemed us from . it tells me , that for every idle word that men shall speak , they shall give an account thereof in the day of iudgment , ( and by such words , if not repented of , they shall be condemned ) mat. 12. 36 , 37. so now your foundation , and one of the pillars of purgatory is gone . and as for your other fansie , that christ did not satisfie for our temporal punishments , i pray you tell me , did not christ suffer temporal afflictions ? pop. yes doubtless , the whole gospel is full of such sufferings . prot. surely all that christ suffered , he suffered for us , both in our stead , and for our good . he was cut off , not for himself , ( but for our sins ) dan. 9. 25. it was for our sakes that he bare that temporal part of the curse , to be hanged on a tree ; and all that pain and shame was but a temporal punishment , gal. 3. 13. i read , isa. 53. that christ bore our griefs , and carried our sorrows , v. 4. which was not only accomplished in this , that he bare the guilt of our sins , as s. peter expounds it , 1 pet. 2. 24. but also in this , that he delivered them from sicknesses and temporal afflictions , as st. matthew expounds it , mat. 8. 16 , 17. and both these consist well together , since christ removed both sin the cause , and affliction the effect of it . pop. if christ had satisfied for our temporal punishments , then believers should be free from all pains , and loss , and death , which it is apparent they are not ; and therefore notwithstanding the fulness of christs satisfaction , they may be liable to pains in purgatory as well as in this life . prot. to this i answer three things . first , your inference from the pains of this life to the torments of purgatory is weak , and false . i may , and must believe , that god afflicts his people here , because scripture and experience put it out of doubt . but that cod will punish his people in purgatory after this life , no scripture affirms . you that can multiply your instances of the sufferings of believers in this life , and can tell us of adam , and david , and solomon , and many others , have not to this day been able ( though often urged ) to produce one instance of the sufferings of any one believer , after this life ( which one consideration is sufficient to overthrow this argument in the judgement of any indifferent man. ) secondly , there is not the same reason for the sufferings of believers here , and those which you suppose in purgatory , nor are they of the same nature . the present sufferings of believers are necessary , ( 1 pet. 1. 6. you are in heaviness if need be ) both for believers themselves to subdue the flesh , which in this life is potent , and altogether needs such a curb . by this shall the iniquity of iacob be purged , isa. 27. 9. and to prevent their eternal damnation , 1 cor. 11. 32. as also for the terror and caution of other offenders . so that , albeit christ hath fully paid the debt , yet it is upon other accounts convenient that they should smart and suffer here . but there is no such necessity nor use of purgatory sufferings , neither for believers themselves ( since there is no mortification of corruption after this life , no temptations to sin there , no improvement of grace , no fear of eternal damnation ) a nor for example and warning to others ; for their fellow-sufferers in purgatory , you do not pretend they are at all edified by their sufferings ; and men here , they neither see nor know any thing of these pains , nor hath god revealed any thing concerning them ; but when god makes any examples to others , he sets them in the view of others , or at least acquaints them fully therewith , as he did with hell torments to this end . it were a sensles● thing to hang up a man in iamaica , for the terror of those that live in england . besides , the sufferings of believers here do come from the love , and faithfulness of god , heb. 12. 6. whom the lord loveth he chasteneth , psal. 119. 75. in faithfulness thou hast afflicted me . accordingly , good men have looked upon them as choice mercies , psal. 97. 12. blessed is the man whom thou chastnest , and psal. 119. 67. it was good for me that i was afflicted : and the denial of afflictions is threatned as a grievous punishment , is. 1. 5. hos. 4. 14. 17. but now the sufferings of purgatory are in all points contrary ; they are purely vindictive , and the effects of meer wrath : nor do you esteem those sufferings a mercy , and your happiness , but freedom from them . and therefore your argument , from the pains of this life to those in purgatory , is foolish and absurd . thirdly , believers suffering here do not at all derogate from the fulness of our redemption by christ , because ( as i have shewed ) admitting that to be compleat , yet they are necessary for other purposes . but your purgatory sufferings do , by communicating at least some part of his proper work to your selves . you profess they wash away part of your sins , which is christs peculiar honor , he washed us from our sins in his own blood , rev. 1. 5. you make them a part of the curse of the law from which ( and not only from a part of it ) christ hath redeemed us , himself being made a curse for us , gal. 3. 13. you make them a real satisfaction in part to gods justice ( which is not satisfied by all that christ did or suffered without them . ) and , in a word , you make men in part their own redeemers and saviours i hope by this you see how weakly you reason from present troubles , to purgatory torments ; and that notwithstanding your objection , my first argument stands good ag●inst purgatory . my second argument is this , that the scripture every where speaks of the state of believers immediately after death , as happy and blessed ; and that all the sufferings of believers are confined to this life ; and of this we have many expressions and examples too in scripture , and not one to the contrary . the sufferings of this present time ( saith s. paul ) are not worthy to be compared with the glory , rom. 8. 18. he knew no other sufferings : the afflictions of believers are light , and but for a moment , and they too are in things that are seen , 2 cor. 4. 17 , 18. and therefore he knew of no sufferings in the invisible world , unless happily you will say that s. paul's travels were in another road into the third heavens , and so he was ignorant of purgatory . lazarus received his evil things in this life , luk. 16. 25. but now he is comforted , therefore surely not in purgatory . if our earthly house of this tabernacle be dissolved , we have an house in heaven , saith s. paul , 2 cor. 5. 1. we are no longer absent from the lord , than present in the body , saith s. paul , 2 cor. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. the prophet assures us , that when righteous men die , they enter into peace , they rest in their beds , isa. 57. 1 , 2. i tell you , their beds are very hard , and the prophets mistake was very great , if they be frying in the flames of purgatory . the beggar died ( and it follows immediately ) he was carried by angels into abrahams bosom . i cannot think these angels mistook their way : the theif was to be with christ that day in paradise , luke 23. 43. pop. the thief was a kind of martyr , and so had that priviledge . prot. his death was so far from being a martyrdom , that it was a just punishment for his evil deeds , as he confesseth , v. 41. but because some of your martyrs ( as you call them ) were indeed malefactors ; therefore to salve their honour ; you make this malefactor a martyr . i will give you but one place more of many , and that is rev. 14. 13. blessed are the dead that die in the lord , from henceforth , that they may rest from their labours . a place so clear , that i am told , a famous doctor of your own , and one of the sorbon-colledge , picherellus by name , did ingenuously confess , st. iohn had in these few words put out the fire of purgatory . a and i am perswaded you would have been ashamed to have kindled it again , but that by this craft you get all your living . i think i need say no more to this point , let us now go to another . we have discoursed of purgatory : now if you please , let us discourse of the ways whereby you pretend to free men from it , which is by absolutions , and indulgencies , and that which is necessary thereunto , to wit , auricular confession . pop. it is well you mention that , for i assure you it is a matter of salvation and damnation ; our council of trent hath determined that it is by divine right necessary , and as attrition alone ( which is a grief for sin , arising only from a fear of hell ) will save a man where confession to a priest follows ; so all the repentance in the world will never save him , without this confession to a priest , viz. actual where it may be had , or in desire when it cannot be actually had . prot. since you lay so much stress upon it , i expect suitable evidence for it . but first i pray you inform me , what your doctrine is in this point . pop. i will give you that in the words of the council of trent as near as i can : they say , that every christian is bound under pain of damnation , to confess to a priest all his mortal sins , which after diligent examination he can possibly remember ; yea , even his most secret sins , his very thoughts ; yea , and all the circumstances of them which are of any moment a prot. now let me hear your strongest arguments to prove this . pop. you shall : our two great arguments are these ; first , priests are by god made iudges , and intrusted with power of the keys for the remission of sins : but no iudges can exercise judicature , unless they know and understand the cause ; and the priest must know all the particular sins , and their circumstances by the mans own confession , or else he knows not whether to bind or loose him , to forgive or to condemn him : this is the argument upon which the council of trent builds their decree b . prot. tell me i pray you ; is it necessary to salvation , to confess every particular mortal sin ? what if a man unavoidably forget some of them ? pop. in that case we confess they may be pardoned without it , and it may suffice to say with david , cleanse thy servant from secret sins ast; prot. now your argument is quite lost : for it seems in this case ( which may be in many hundreds of sins , especially in a person of bad memory ) your judge can pass sentence without knowing the particular cause , and therefore such knowledge is not necessary to his giving absolution . moreover , tell me , i pray you , may not a priest absolve him from his sins , whom christ hath absolved ? pop. yes doubtless . prot. and is not every priest bound to believe , that christ hath absolved every person that is truly penitent ? pop. there is no question of that . prot. suppose a sinner hath visibly forsaken all his wicked wayes and company , and lives a very holy life before he comes to the priest , and the priest is certainly informed of this : is not the priest bound in that case to believe he is truly penitent ? pop. i should be most uncharitable if i should deny that . prot ▪ then he may without any more ado upon his desire absolve him , because it appears that christ hath absolved him , it is not at all necessary to a priest to this purpose to know whether a man be a greater or a less sinner , since the grace of god is offered unto great as well as little sinners : and therefore seeing this is your strong argument , and that learned council could find no better , i see your cause is very low and bad ; but i suppose you have some other argument for it . pop. there is so , and that is jam. 5. 16. confess your faults one to another . prot. is this your strong argument ? here is not a word of the priest , nor of confession to him , but only to our fellow christians ; this confession is mutual , and it will as well prove that the priest is bound to confess his sins to the people , as that the people are bound to confess to the priest : the very next words are , pray one for another ; what are we bound to pray only for the priest ? it is one thing that sets me against your religion to consider what pitiful arguments you rely upon . i am assured your own brethren confess the weakness of this argument , as vasquez a , and cajetan b , and caenus c , but it seems you have no better . the weakness of your arguments for it , might save me the labour of mine against it ; therefore i shall only offer to your thoughts these two considerations . 1. your doctrine makes that necessary to salvation which god hath not made necessary . there is no command of god or christ for it , as your eminent doctors acknowledge , ast; and it sufficiently appears from the vanity of your proofs for it ; you confess it was not necessary in the old testament , and yet there was as much need and use of it then as now , and christ hath made the condition of his church not more , but less burthensome than it was before . many commands and exhortations to repentance there are in scripture , not one which either commands this auricular confession to a priest , or declares the necessity of it , produce one place and i yield ; there are many instances of iohn the baptist , and christ and the apostles , either actual giving , or in gods name proposing and offering remission of sins upon the conditions prescribed in the gospel a among which not one of them requires this auricular confession : bring one instance to the point and i yield . pop. i will give you two instances , matt. 3. 6. the pharisees were baptized — confessing their sins : and , the conjurers confessed their sins , act. 19. 18. prot. these places do both speak of publick confession and in case of scandalous sins ( which we acknowledge to be a duty ) but what is this to auricular confession ? will you never speak to the purpose ? besides these places cannot be meant of auricular confession for that was not then instituted , as your council of trent confesseth . well , i see you can bring neither instance of this confession nor precept for it , and therefore i am sure there is no sin in the neglect of it , for where there is no law , there is no transgression , rom. 4. 15. 2. your doctrine makes that insufficient for pardon and salvation which god makes sufficient . the great god assureth us . that he that confesseth and forsaketh his sins shall find mercy , prov. 28. 13. pop. that makes against you , for you s●e there is confession required . prot. and no doubt it is a mans duty to make confession to god , and in case of wrong , unto men , and sometimes to a minister also , as in case of doubt or trouble of conscience , but this is nothing to auricular confession , nor can the text mean that , sor you grant it was not as yet instituted . god declares that if the wicked for sake his ( evil ) way and thoughts and turn unto god , he shall have mercy , isa. 55. 7. so isa. 1. 16. 17 , 18. so act. 16. 31. s. paul in gods name promiseth , believe on the lord iesus and thou shalt be saved . thus ro. 10. 13. whosoever shall call upon the name of the lord shall be saved : and who dares say , that he that doth all these things shall not be saved , unless he confess to a priest , since god never spake such a word ? what is it to add to gods word , if this be not ? the terms upon which christ offered promised salvation , are repent and believe . pop. auricular confession is a part of repentance . prot. when christ preached that doctrine it was no part of repentance , for you confess it was not then instituted , your council of trent determines , that it was instituted by christ after his resurrection . * and you will find it hard to perswade any rational man , that repentance wanted a necessary part before christs resurrection , or that it was of one kind before it , and quite another after it . but i will not waste more time about so vain a fancy , for my part i rest upon christs gracious promises to repenting and believing sinners : by gods grace i will endeavour to do these things , and i doubt not but he will make good his words whether you will or no ; let god be true and every man a lyar . but possibly you have better arguments for absolutions and indulgences : produce them , but first let me hear what your doctrine in this point is . pop. i will give you this in brief together with the rise and ground of it : we believe ; first . that there are divers saints who have not only merit for themselves , but a great deal to spare , and all their merits are put into one treasury . secondly , that these merits are appliable to others , so as god will pardon thomas , for example , for iohns merit . thirdly , that god hath put this treasure into the churches , that is , the popes hands , and from him into the hands of all priests , who have a power to apply these merits as they see fit . prot. there is nothing sound and solid in this whole discourse ; first , i have proved that there is no purgatory , there is your foundation of indulgences gone ; next i hope ere we part to shew , that there is no such thing as merit in good works , which is another of your foundations . next , that any mans merits ( except christs ) may be applied to another , i pray you inform me , for i have learned quite otherwise : i read that every one shall bear his own burden , gal. 6. 6. every one shall receive according to what he hath done in his body , 2 cor. 5. 10. the wise virgins differed from you , they thought they had oyl little enough for themselves and none at all to spare , mat. 25. 9. so if you are virgins , it seems you are none of that sort . if you can prove this conceit of yours , do . pop. i will give you a clear place , col. 1. 24. s. paul saith , i now rejoyce in my sufferings for you and fill up that which is behind or that which is lacking of the afflictions of christ in my flesh for his bodies sake which is the church . prot. first tell me , do you think any thing was lacking or defective in christs sufferings . pop. no , you use to charge us with that opinion , but falsly . prot. it is well you grant thus much , but if you denied it , a cloud of plain scriptures would force you to grant it , which tells us that by one offering christ perfected for ever them that are sanctified , heb. 10. 14. and that he is able to save to the uttermost , heb. 7. 25. by sufferings of christ then , we must understand the sufferings of christ mystical , or christ in his members , which are usually so called ; a when christ had done suffering in his person , he left it as a legacy to his members , that they should suffer with him , and for him , b and st. paul bore his share in these sufferings ; and for the last clause of his suffering for the church , the phrase , it is true , is ambiguous , and sometimes indeed it signifies to satisfie gods justice for another , but in this sense st. paul rejects it with indignation , 1 cor. 1. 13. was paul crucified for you ? but it is not always thus taken , for st. paul saith he suffered for christ , 2 cor. 12. 10. not surely to satisfie for him : there is therefore another sense , and that is , he suffered for the churches edification , & establishment , and so indeed he elsewhere explains himself , phil. 1. 12. and i am told that your own brethren understand it thus , c and your bellarmin confesseth the words may be thus expounded , but only saith , the words may conveniently receive this sense , a which is as much as to say , if you will be courteous you may grant him the argument , but if you do not , he cannot prove it . but , admit there be such a treasury of merits for others , as you pretended ; how prove you that your priests are made judges , and invested with such a power of distributing those merits and giving absolutions , as you challenge ? pop. our great argument is , john 20. 23. whosesoever sins ye remit they are remitted , and whosesoever sins ye retain , they are retained . answer me this argument , and i will yield up this cause . prot. what argument do you draw from these words ? pop. hence it appears that ministers are made judges , and intrusted with full power and authority of binding and loosing ; so as christ doth not loose ( or forgive ) a sinner by himself , but only by the priest , as bellarmin saith . b and to speak properly , as our most learned vasquez affirmeth , god doth not properly loose a sinner , but only approves of the priests loosing of him ( b ) . prot. now in my opinion , it were good manners to make the priest come after god , and not to make god depend upon the priest. it seems then , if the priest , should grow surly or envious , and deny me a pardon , christ cannot help me , for he hath given the power out of his hands : so you make the priest the judge , and god only the approver . the lord rebuke this spirit of blasphemy . again , nothing is more familiar in scripture than for gods ministers to be said to do that , which they do only authoritatively declare that god will do . thus god saith to ieremy , i have set thee over kingdoms to root out , and pull down , and destroy , that is , by declaring that god would do it : in like manner gods ministers are said to bind and loose , because they have from god authority , to declare a sinner to be bound by his sins , or loosed from them , which ( if they declare truly and according to gods word ) god in heaven doth and will make it good . as for this text , it saith nothing but this , that every one whom they bind or loose , that is , proceeding according to their rule , ( which is always to be understood ) shall be bound or loosed in heaven ; but it doth not say that no man is bound or loosed , but they whom the priest bindeth and looseth . but besides , if all these things were granted , how doth this text prove that the priest or pope can absolve or release any souls out of purgatory , if there were such a place ? i pray you tell me , can the pope binde any soul and keep him in purgatory ? pop. no , we do not pretend to that . prot. then he cannot loose a soul neither out of purgatory ; for i am sure binding and loosing are of the same extent . but upon second thoughts , i must own your discretion ; for the binding of souls in purgatory was an invidious and unprofitable work , and would have bound up mens hearts and purses : it is only the loosing of them out which opens their purse strings , & tends to the edification of the church , that is , the pope and priests ( as they always understand that word . ) in sober sadness , it is enough to make any serious christian abhor your church , that your pope should not be content to usurp a power over the whole visible world , but that he should extend his authority to the other world , even to purgatory . in my opinion he had done more wisely to have extended his empire to hell , for there are many of his predecessours ( so far as can be judged by any mans life ) whom he might have appointed his deputies : but there is never a pope in purgatory ; for they who can release others at pleasure , will certainly deliver themselves : but now i speak of that , i pray you tell me if it be true that i have heard , that the pope when he dies , receives absolution from his confessor , and that after his death the cardinals give him absolution , and give order for the singing of abundance of masses ? pop. it is true , i was at rome when the last pope died , and it was so then , and our books justifie it . prot. i am much pleased with your ingenuity , so the pope gives the priest a power to pardon himself ; methinks he might save the charges of a confessor ; it were enough to say , i absolve my self . but tell me , do you say masses for any that are in heaven or in hell. pop. no , we utterly disclaim that . prot. then i perceive the pope goes into purgatory . i see your popes are not self-seeking men ( as they are slandered to be ) that help so many thousands out of purgatory , and leave themselves in . but really , this is to me a convincing argument , that you do not believe your selves , but deceive poor silly people against your consciences : for else you might be assured the pope would never come into purgatory ; for you say he can keep himself out , and no man doubts of his will to do it . besides , your doctrine usurps upon god's prerogative . i had thought it was only my father in heaven to whom i should have prayed , forgive us our trespasses : now it seems we must pray so to one of these padre's upon earth . you make subjects the supream judges of all offences committed against their soveraign , and your priests sit as umpires between god and the sinner , and determine what satisfaction god shall have , and what penance the sinner shall undergo . methinks they are brave fellows ; and i now see it was not without ground that father cotton bragged , that he could do any thing when he had his god in his hand , ( that was the sacrament ) and his king upon his knees ( in confession . ) i think you will bring christ upon his knees too , for it seems you have resolved , that he shall stand to your priests arbitration . i might add to this , that you leave the souls of people to endless perplexities ; you confess , that indulgences profit not , if a man be not in the state of grace a , ( which you say a man cannot certainly know ) or if a man have not made a free and full confession after sufficient examination * and who knows when he hath done these things sufficiently ? ) or if the priest do not intend to pardon him ( and who knows another mans intentions ? ) and yet you would have me so desperate to venture my soul upon such sandy foundations , that your selves are afraid and ashamed of . but , to leave this , i perceive that this , and divers of your other doctrines are grounded upon that of the merit of good works , which because i judge a very pernicious and dangerous doctrine ; let me hear what you can say for it : but first , let me understand your doctrine : for i have heard some of you cry out , that our divines slandered them , and profess that they did not hold merit strictly , but cast the honour of all upon christ and the grace of god ; therefore i pray you inform me . pop. i will be plain and candid with you , i do not like such artifices ; the council of trent in plain terms affirms , that our good works do truly merit increase of grace and eternal life a ; and our famous bellarmiue disputes , and proves , that good works do not only merit in respect of gods gracious covenant , but in regard of the worthiness of the works themselves , and that eternal life is not only due from gods liberality , but from his just judgment b . prot. i pray you tell me , hath bellarmin such expressions as these , that because god would honour his children , he would have them to get heaven by their merits , which is more honourable to them , than to receive it ly gods free gift ? pop. bellarmine doth say so c . prot. i see he was a man of a brave spirit , and much a gentleman : but in my poor opinion , he should have taken a little care for the honour of god , as well as of the saints . but i have heard of many other strange expressions ascribed to your authors . i hear your tapperus saith , far be it from them , that righteous men should expect eternal life as a beggar doth an alms . it is much more glorious that they should receive it as conquerours and triumphers , and possess it as a reward due to their labours d ; i see also this was a man of honour : and again , that our good works deserve the reward from god as from a just iudge , and are able to abide the severe judgement of god , though he weigh all circumstances c . i am told that your renowned vasquez saith , that eternal life is due to the works of good men , without any covenant , or the favour of god d . and your learned cajetan and dominicus à scoto say as much , as i hear bellarmine reports e . and that vasquez again saith , the merits or person of christ adds no worth to the works of good men f . this man was resolved so far to tread in abraham's steps ; as abraham would not receive from the king of sodom , so he would not receive from christ , from a thread to a shoe-latchet , lest it should be said christ had made him rich . are these things true ? pop. it is so . prot. then sure i am , our religion is the safest way ; if we do err , it is in giving too much to god ; but if you err , it is no less than the worst kind of sacriledge to rob god of so much of his glory and the honour of your salvation . yet , if you can prove this , i will receive it . produce your strongest arguments . pop. first then , i prove it hence , that eternal life is called a reward , mat. 5. 12. and given to labourers in the vineyard , mat. 20. prot. we must compare scripture with scripture : other places tell us , it is an inheritance , gal. 4. 7. rom. 8. 17. the same estate cannot be mine both by inheritance and purchase . pop. yes it may , i will prove it by an instance . the glory which christ had was his by inheritance ( for he was heir of all things ) and yet by purchase , philip. 2. 8 , 9. prot. i thank you for this objection : i have scarce had any thing from you like a solid argument but this : it deserves an answer ; first then , this will not reach our case : the great hinderance of merit in our works is , that the best of them are imperfect , and a debt we owe to god before hand ; but christs works are of another kind , they are compleat and perfect , and in part no debt ; for though when christ was made man , he was a debtor to god , and bound as a creature to fulfill the law , yet this was a voluntary act , and no debt to god , that he would become man , and so put himself under the law. besides , the dignity of his person made his works proportionable unto all the glory he received ; whereas all our sufferings are not worthy to be compared with our glory , rom. 8. 18. secondly , it might be both an inheritance and parchase in christ in divers respects ; because he had two natures ; as he was god , or the son of god , it was his inheritance , and belonged to his manhood only as united with the godhead ; as he was man , he might purchase it , by what he did and suffered in the flesh : but in us there are not two natures , nor any of these pretences to merit . moreover scripture speaks of two kinds of rewards , the one of grace , the other of debt , and withal affirms , that the reward which god gives to good men is meerly of grace , ( as we profess ) and not of debt ( as you pretend ) rom. 4. 4. pop. possibly it may be of both , as bellarmin saith * . prot. no , the apostle forbids that , rom. 11. 6. if by grace , it is no more of works , otherwise grace is no more grace , but if it be of works , then it is no more grace , otherwise work is no more work , and this reward is not given to him that worketh , but believeth , rom 4. 5. no protestant could speak our doctrine more fully . pop. but god gives this reward to men for working in his vineyard , mat. 20. prot. it is true ; but still the reward appears to be of grace , because it is alike to him that came at the last hour , as to them that had born the heat and burden of the day , vers . 12. but that heaven is a reward of justice , and a due debt , ( as you profess ) this text proves not , and other scriptures plainly contradict . pop. but god is said to reward men according to their works , that is according to the proportion of them , and that implies merit . prot. not so neither ; for since god is pleased to reward in us , his own gifts and graces , not our merits , as s. bernard speaks , he may still keep the proportion , and to them to whom he gives more grace here , he may give more glory hereafter ; and yet there is no more merit in this additional reward than in the rest . again , i may as well conclude , that the blind men merited their sight , because christ saith , be it unto you according to your faith , matth. 9. 29. as you gather merit from this phrase , according to your work ; therefore let me hear if you have any other argument . pop. our works are mentioned as the causes for which god gives eternal life , mat. 25. come ye blessed , for i was hungry and you fed me , and other like places . prot. s. paul did not think this a good argument ; for though he knew that it was said of abraham , because thou hast done this , i will bless thee , gen. 22. 16 , 17. yet he positively denies the merit of abraham's works , rom. 4. & gal. 3. and he saith of himself , i obtained mercy , because i did it ignorantly , 1 tim. 1. 13. yet i hope you do not think his ignorance merited mercy : the king saith , i forgive thee all that debt , because thou desiredst me , mat. 18. 32. did his asking deserve it ? besides all this , if god did reward them for their good works , this will not prove merit ; if god reward men infinitely more than their good works deserve ( as god indeed doth ) and bellarmine acknowledgeth so much . * pop. but good men are said to be worthy , rev. 3. 4. prot. they are so comparatively to other men , and also by gods gracious acceptation in and through christ , but otherwise the holiest saints of god have ever judged themselves unworthy of the least of gods mercies ( so far were they from thinking they were worthy of eternal life ) gen. 32. 10. mat. 8 8. and since it is gods grace which gives them all their worth and meetness for heaven , coloss. 1. 12. it is impudence to pretend to merit from god by it . if yet you will boast of your own worth and merit , answer the apostles question at your leasure , 1 cor. 4. 7. for who maketh thee to differ from another ? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive ? now if thou didst receive it , why dost thou glory as if thou hadst not received it ? if you can baffle your conscience now , you will find it an hard question to answer at the last day . pop. but eternal life is given them by gods justice , 2 thess. 4. 6. 1 tim. 4. 7 , 8. prot. this word also doth not prove any merit , for gods justice is oft-times taken improperly , i read 1 iohn 1. 9. if we confess our sins he is just and faithful to forgive them , yet justification is not merited as you confess , but is an act of meer grace , being justified freely by his grace , &c. rom. 3. 24 , 28. thus , 2 pet. 1. 1. we are said to obtain precious faith through the righteousness of god ; and yet faith is the gift of god , and you confess that is given without merit ( for you grant none but justified persons can merit ) therefore , in such places , justice is taken either for equity and the congruity of it with gods nature or word , or for the faithfulness of god , or the like . pop. since you despise my arguments , let me hear if you have better against the merit of good works . prot. you shall , and methinks that one place , luke 17. 10. should convince you , when ye shall have done all these things which are commanded you , say we are unprofitable servants , we have done that which was our duty to do . pop. christ doth not affirm they are unprofitable , but only bids them say they are unprofitable , and teaches them to be humble . a prot. very well : then you think christ taught them to think one thing , and say another , that is , he taught them the art of lying , and that to god. pop. i answer further , that without gods grace men are unprofitable , they only can merit that are in the state of grace as our church holds . prot. doth not your conscience tell you the apostles , whom christ commands to say thus , were in the state of grace ? pop. though a man cannot profit god , he may profit himself . prot. if he cannot profit god , he cannot properly merit any thing from god , for that implies a proportion between giving and receiving . pop. it is true we are unprofitable by our selves in regard of gods absolute soveraignty , but not unprofitable in regard of gods gracious covenant . prot. it is ridiculous to say , that is merit properly which depends on gods meer grace , and besides the pharisees themselves , whose errour christ there strikes at , were never so vain or absurd to think , that they could be profitable to god , in any other sense than what you affirm . pop. let me hear your other argument . prot. the nature of merit shews the impossibility of it in men : it is evident that to merit , these amongst other ingredients , are required . first , that the work be not due already : doth any man deserve an estate for that money whereby he payes an old debt ? secondly , that the work be our own ; you do not think a noble mans almoner , merits by distributing his masters alms. thirdly , that it be profitable to him of whom he merits . fourthly , that the work be perfect ; for that action which needs a pardon , certainly cannot deserve a reward . fifthly , that it be suitable to the reward ; if i present my prince with an horse , and he requites me with a lordship , who but a horse would pretend this was merited ? pop. i must acknowledge most of these things are true , but this doth not concern our works . prot. that we will now examine , and first , all the works now we can do for god are deserved by him : it fills me with horrour to hear men pretending to merit of that god , who ( as they profess ) created them , and every day upholds their souls in life , and redeemed them , and is so infinitely before hand with them every way ; tell me , dare you say that god doth not deserve , that you should do the utmost you can , for his service and glory ? pop. i will not say so . prot. then it is impudence to pretend merit from god ; besides , the good works we do , are not properly our own , but gods ; faith is the gift of g●d , ephes. 2. 8. phil. 1. 29. so is repentance , acts 11. 18. & 5. 31. and in general , every good and perfect gift is from god , jam. 1. 17. pop. the first grace is from god , but that i use it right , that is from my self , and thereby it is that i merit . prot. st. paul was not of your mind ; what good work is there but it lies either in willing or doing ? yet both these god works in us , phil. 2. 13. not only the power of believing , but the act too , ( and suffering also ) is the gift of god , phil. 1. 29. and st. pauls abundant labours in the gospel , which certainly amounted to merit , if there were ever such a thing in the world , and which , if any thing , was his own act , yet he dare not take to himself , i laboured , yet not i , but the grace of god which was with me , 1 cor. 15. 10. no less evident is it , that our works cannot profit god , psal. 16. 4. iob 22. 3. & 35. 7 , as also our best works are so far from meriting , that they need a pardon for the infirmities accompanying them , by reason of which the best of saints have been afraid of the severe judgments of god even upon their best works ; so was iob a and david b and paul c and lastly , it is so evident that our works are not proportionable to the reward , that bellarmin hath a chapter upon this head , to prove that good works are rewarded above their desert ; d and therefore it is an intollerable arrogance to affirm that divers of the saints have not only merit enough to purchase eternal life , but a great deal to spare for the relief of others . to let this point pass , now i would willingly be informed of two things , which concern us lay-people in an especial manner ; first , why you defraud us of the cup. secondly , why you order prayer to be made in a language that many , nay , most of us do not understand : for the first , you rob us of one half of the sacrament , viz. of the cup ; what can you say to acquit your selves from sacriledge ? pop. let me hear what right you have to it . prot. first , i remember you disputed for transubstantiation out of iohn 6. which , you said , spoke of the sacrament ; now if you say true , there is a passage in it , verse 53 , except you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood , you have no life in you ; if this be spoken of the sacrament ( as you say it is ) and the wine be really his blood , then you do no less than murder all your people , by robbing them of that which is necessary to their life . pop. not so , ( for as i shall shew you ) you have the blood in the body ( or bread . ) prot. if it be so , yet my taking it in that manner cannot be called a drinking it , unless you will say that every man that eats rawish meat , may be said to drink the blood which he eats in it ; but further , i think we have as great right to the cup as your priests , we have christs do this , and you pretend no more ; in short , we have both the legacy and command of christ fortified with this strong reason , this cup is the new testament in my blood which is shed for many for the remission of sins ; whereby it sufficiently appears , that the signe belongs to all that have interest in the thing , and are capable of discerning the lords body ; and this command of christ is express and positive , mat. 26. drink ye all of it , it is remarkable that he doth not say , eat ye all ( though they were to do so ) but drink ye all of it , as foreseeing the sacriledge of your church ; what can you say to this ? pop. first i say here is no command but an institution only . prot. i understand no subtilties ; but if you say , this was no command of drinking , then it was no command of eating , to say , take , eat , and so the sacrament is not commanded : but people may receive or refuse it as they please , and christs do this is no more than do as you list ; for my part i shall never know when christ commands any thing , if this be not a command , for no command can run in more express words . pop. if this be a command , it concerns only priests , for such the apostles were , and they only were present . prot. since it is evident , that eating and drinking belong to the same persons , if the one be restrained to the apostles ; so is the other , and because you confess the eating belongs to the people by vertue of this precept . [ eat of it ] by the same reason also doth the drinking reach to them also by vertue of that precept , [ drink of it . ] besides the apostles though they were ministers , yet in this act they were in the peoples stead , and christ was the minister or dispenser of the sacrament , and they only the receivers of it at this time . besides , as they were ministers he bad them do this , that is , take and distribute bread and wine to the people as he had to them ; if ministers be under any command of administring and giving the sacrament , certainly it is here ( for no command can be more express ) and if they are commanded to give the bread to the people , they are commanded to give the wine also , for here is no difference at all . adde to this that st. paul hath put this out of doubt , and he expounds this of , and applies it to the people , for thus he writes to all the corinthians , let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup , 1 cor. 11. 28. in four verses together , viz. 26 , 27 , 28 , 29. eating and drinking are inseparably joyned together , which you have so wickedly divided : if it be a command , let a man examine himself , ( which none will deny ) then it is a command ( which immediately follows ) so let him eat this bread , and drink this cup. pop. it doth not appear , that there is an absolute command of drinking , but only that as oft as they do drink it , they should drink it in remembrance of christ. prot. if this be so , then here is no command for the priest , either to consecrate the cup , or to receive it . and further , then here is no command for his consecrating or receiving the bread neither ; for there is no more than a do this , and that is for the wine as well as for the bread. pop. here is a difference , for he saith of the body simply , do this in remembrance of me ; but of the cup , this do ye as oft as you drink it . prot. if you lay any stress upon these words , as oft as you do it , i beseech you make use of your eyes , and you shall read that it is said of the bread as well as of the cup , vers. 26. for as oft as ye eat this bread , and drink this cup. well , i am sorry to see that you dare oppose such plain scripture upon such pitiful pretences . but i pray you let me ask you , i have been told that your famous council of censtance , in their canon , for the receiving the sacrament in one kind , have these expressions ; although christ did minister this sacrament und●r the forms of bread and wine — and although in the primitive church this — sacrament was received by the faithful under both kinds — yet they make a canon that it shall be received under one kinde only . is this so ? pop. it is true ; they are the very words of the council . prot. this was a wise council indeed , wiser than christ and all his apostles ; but i should think we are on the safest side , having christ and all the primitive churches for our patterns : and by this i see what to judge of your glorious pretences , that yours is the antient and apostolical faith , and ours ( forsooth ) but a new religion . but i pray let me hear what you have to say for this fact of yours in taking away the cup ? i see scripture is against you , and the antient church , at least so far that for 1400. years together the people might drink of the cup , ( if they would ) as i am told your becanus confesseth * . pop. you are greatly mistaken , we have scripture for us , we have examples there , of receiving the sacrament in one kind , acts 2. 42. they continued in the apostles doctrine , and breaking of bread ; and acts 20. 17. they came together to break bread. prot. it is usual to express an whole feast by this one thing , christ went into the pharisees house to eat bread , luk. 14. 2. i suppose , you think it was not a dry feast ; ioseph's brethren sat to eat , gen. 37. 25. so act. 27. 35. paul ( and the rest ) took bread and eat it , yet none doubts but they had drink with it . besides , here is as much said of the people , as of the ministers drinking of the cup , that is , neither is here mentioned ; and if the silence concerning the cup be a good argument , it proves that neither did partake of it : if it be not , then both might partake of it : but what have you more to say ? pop. you need not be troubled so much at the loss of the cup , since the blood is contained in the bread , that is , in the body , by concomitancy . prot. this is in effect to tell christ the cup was a superfluous device : besides , we are commanded to drink the cup : if i should dip bread in drink and eat it , no man will say i drink the bread . again , this destroys the main end of the sacrament , which is to shew forth christs death , and the shedding of his blood ; and this was the reason why christ appointed the bread and wine apart , as the fittest means to bring to our memories , the pouring of his blood out of his body for us ; and as god would have us to remember the thing , so he commanded us to use this sign of drinking the cup. pop. but there are many weighty reasons why it is not fit you should partake of the cup. prot. i dare not forsake plain scripture for any subtil pretences of humane reason ; but let me hear them . pop. 1. in some countries wine is not to be had . 2. some there are who have an antipathy against wine , and cannot drink any . 3. there is great danger of spilling the wine , which is the blood of christ. prot. are these your weighty reasons ; i see the reason and religion of rome are both of a complexion . but i pray you how came it to pass , that christ and his apostles , and all the primitive christians for so many hundreds of years should prescribe and use the cup , notwithstanding those reasons ? surely if these reasons are strong now , they were so 1660. years ago : wine was as scarce then ( as now it is ) in some countries ; abstemious persons were then as well as now ; the wine might be spilled then as much as now . but they feared none of these things ; either they were all stupid that did not see these things , or your church is audacious , that dare in effect teach christ and his apostles , what they should have done . it might peradventure be added , that in such places where wine cannot be had , or for some persons who cannot drink wine , some other thing proportionable to it may be allowed ; but if it might not , or if in such special cases they were confined to one kind , i am sure it is a ridiculous consequence , that because they must be content with the bread that cannot drink of the cup , therefore they that can , shall go without it ; and because it may be omitted where it cannot be had , therefore it shall be omitted where it may be enjoyed . and for the danger of spilling of the wine , there is also danger in dropping some of the bread , and so that should be denied : by this argument also the priest should not meddle with the wine , for he may spill it ; but indeed such phantastical reasons as these deserve no answer ; they make me almost sick to hear them . there is only one point more , i would be informed in , what you can pretend for it , and that is , that your publick prayers are performed in a language unknown to most of your people . pop. what have you to say against it ? prot. what can be said more plainly and fully against it by us , than what s. paul saith , 1 cor. 14. there i find some , who having the gift of speaking with divers languages , did use it without interpreting them in the publick assembly ; those the apostle informs , that there is a better gift and more desirable than that of tongues , namely prophesie , and he useth divers reasons , which are so many undeniable arguments against your latine prayers : he tells them it is their duty to manage publick worship , so as the church may be edified , verse . 4 , 5 , 12. i hope you will not deny this . pop. none can deny that . prot. well ; then he tells us that what is spoken in an unknown language doth not edifie the church , vers . 4 , 11 , 12 , 14. 2. yet again , the apostle commands that if any do speak in an unknown tongue it must be interpreted , vers . 27. you disobey this command . 3. he argues that publick prayers are so to be made by the minister that the people may say amen , v. 16. and he also tells us that no man can say amen to that which he doth not understand , vers . 15. so the apostle stops all your starting holes . pop. the very word ▪ men is hebrew . prot. you dispute not only against me , but against the apostle himself ; but amen , though an hebrew word , is by common use sufficiently known to us all , to express our consent to his prayers , and confidence that god will hear them . 4. yet again , he argues that strange tongues are designed only for the conviction of unbelievers , not to be used be believers amongst themselves , unless interpreted , v. 22. what can , or dare you say against such clear places ? pop. s. paul speaks not of the ordinary service of the church , but of extraordinary hymnes and songs . prot. that is false ; he speaks of the ordinary service of the church , though at that time there was something extraordinary in it ; and besides , his reasons reach to all times and services , ordinary or extraordinary ; must we not look to the edification of the church in the one as well as the other ? must not the people say amen in one as well as the other ? let me hear therefore what you have to say for your selves . pop. preaching ought to be in a known language ; for the end of that is the peoples edification , but prayers are made to god. prot. though they are made to god , yet they are made by the church , who are to joyn in those prayers , and to signifie their consent by saying amen , which requires their understanding : and moreover , that chapter speaks as expresly of praying as it doth of prophesying in the church . surely the people went not to church to sit there like senseless images , but to offer up a reasonable service , and to tender their prayers and praises unto god by the mouth of the minister , as they did , act. 4. 24 , they lift up their voice with one accord . and if we pray with you , we must understand ; else we cannot pray in faith ( as it is our duty to do ) and we shall fall into their error to ask we know not what . pop. you need not concern your self about that ; you may rely upon the wisdom and fidelity of the church , who takes care that your prayers be right . prot. i confess there is this great encouragement for it , that your church , it seems , is wiser than st. paul : but as a friend i advise you to give this counsel of relying upon your church to the indians , or some remote places , for they that know her will never trust her . for my part , my saviours words make me cautious , if the blind lead the blind , both shall fall into the ditch . if i had no other argument of your churches fallibility and apostacy ; this one point were a sufficient evidence of them both . but what have you more to say ? pop. i will give you then a scripture instance ; the priests prayed in the temple when the people waited without , luke 1. 21. prot. what is this to the purpose ? i do not read , that the priest prayed at all , but only went in to offer incense ; but if he did pray , he did it alone , not with and before the people , as your prayers are ; you might as well plead thu ; those priests said nothing at all , and therefore your priests need only make a dumb shew , and may serve their latin ( as well as their english ) which may be good counsel for many of them , that have so little to spare . but seriously can you , or any rational man think , these reasons of sufficient weight to oppose against that great scripture rule of edification , and the express words and plain arguments of st. paul ; god deliver me from such a besotting religion . besides what i have said , i shall leave this with you at parting , that you do not only oppose scripture , but also that antient church which you pretend to reverence , and to follow her steps , and your practice is contrary to the church in all antient times . the prayers of the iews in publick , were alwayes made in the hebrew tongue , and in that tongue god gave them those forms of prayer and blessing which were then used , numb . 6. 10. god gave the gift of languages to that end , that the apostles might establish the worship of god in every nation in their own language : and i am told , that origen reports this , to be the practice of the church in this time ( as well as his own judgment ) that every one did pray to god in his own dialect , greeks in greek , and latines in latin , &c. a besides , i am told , that your own authors , lyra , aquinas , and harding , and others confess , this was the practice of the antient church , and that one of your own councils , that of lateran in the year 1215. did make this order , that whereas in many places there were mixed people of divers languages and customs , the bishops should take care to provide fit men , that should perform divine service amongst them , according to this difference of rites and languages . b moreover , that your great cardinal cajetan confesseth , that prayers ought to be in a known tongue . c are these things so ? pop. i cannot deny it . their books are extant . prot. then by this , i see , how far your church is , not only from infallibility , but from common honesty , that dare pretend they hold nothing but what hath been by constant tradition conveyed to them from the apostles times until this day . and by this i shall judge of all your other brags of antiquity in your doctrine . so i see you are obstinate and incorrigible , and therefore i shall trouble my self no further to talk with you . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a55374-e1050 * concil . trident. † see my nullity of romish faith , chap. 2. sect. 4. * de pontifice , l. 4. c. 2. * cressy in exomolog . in the appendix , chap. 4. num . 7. holden de resolutione fidei , l. 2. c. 1. * lib. 5. cap. 1. * see potter and chillingworth . * de pontific . l. 4. c. 2. * de eccl siâ militante , l. 3. c. 16. † chron. l. 4. * de pontif. l. 3. c. 7. denique quod , * de verbo dei. l. 1. c. 10. itaque non dicimus . * see nullity of rom. faith . ch . 2. † hist. l. 310. b contra appionem , lib. 1. c in annot. adversus cajet . de libris maccab. d enchir. c. de scrip . de num . lib. e in scholiis ad epist. 116. hieronymi . f de verbo dei , l. 1. c. 10. in principio . g loc. theol. l. 2. c. 11. * rainoldus in his praelections concerning the apocryphal books , proves this out of their own words , see praelect . 40 , 41 , 42 , 43. * see rainoldus & spanhem de libris apocryphis ▪ * de tradit . cap. 9. * of which see nulli●y , append. p. 92. * sixtus the fifth , pope , tells us in his preface to his translation of the bible , that he pickt out of the cardinals , and almost out of all nations , a colledge of most learnned men , who advised him in that work ; they ( saith he ) consulted , and i chose that which was best . and he adds these remarkable words , it is most evident , that there is no surer , nor stronger argument , than the comparing of ancient and approved copies . and ( he tells us ) that he carefully corrected it with his own hands . and then the pope imposeth this translation upon all the world , to be followed without adding or diminishing , or altering , under pain of excommunication . and yet ( that you may see how they abuse the peoples credulity to make them believe the popes infallibility which themselves do not in earnest believe . ) about two years after comes clement the eighth , and he puts forth another edition and translation of the bible , differing from , and contrary to the former edition in two thousand places , as doctor james hath proved , by producing the places , as they are in * both editions . and which is more than all this , in the preface to his last bible of clement the eighth , we have these words ; receive , christian reader , this old and vulgar edition of the scripture corrected with all possible diligence , which , though in respect of humane weakness it be hard to affirm , that it is every way compleat ; yet it is not to be doubted , but it is more pure and corrected than all that hath gone before it . i think this were sufficient evidence ( if there were no other ) how great a cheat it is , that you pretend the pope to be the infallible interpreter of scripture . for here we have one of those infallibles directly contradicting and overturning the other : and besides , instead of that divine , ( or , after a sort divine ) infallibility , which you ascribe to the pope , we have here a publick acknowledgment of his imbecillity : nor dare he affirm his work to be perfect , which it must needs have been , if he had been infallibly guided in it ( as you pretend he was ) nor would he have said so , if he had believed his own infallibiliy . * in his bellum papale , and defence of it . notes for div a55374-e12540 a de expresso dei verbo . a enchiridion , cap. 1. b de primatu romanae ecclesiae , fol 92. c eccles. hierarch . lib. 2. cap. 2. d ibid. l. 3. c. 3. fol. 103. * contra haereses , l. 5. c. 6. * in fine concil . trident. reg. 4. * de sacris vernaculis . * cap. cum ex injuncta . extra de haeres . * triplicatio contra whitak , c. 17. * see nullity . † de pont. l. 4. c. 5. * roffensis contra oecolampadiam , c. 2. fol. 3. * de indulgentiis , cap. 4. sub finem . * see nullity , chap 5. * greg. de valentiâ . a diligenter nota quod eujusmodi gratia ▪ non dantur . pauperibus , quia non sunt , ideo non possunt consolari . taxa cancellariae apostolicae . tit. de matrimoniali . b nam indulgentiae fiunt ad relevandam indigentiam ecclesiae , quae non relevatur per solam voluntatem dandi , sed per datum . de potestate papoe , quest . 30. art . 3. c quantum ad remissionem poenae quae acquiritur per indulgentiam , in tali causa non est inconveniens quod dives , sit melioris conditionis quâm pauper ▪ ibi enim non dicitur , venite & emite sine , pecuniâ . ibid. * maulin , reinolds against hart , and others . * ses. 22. cap. 9. can. 2 , 3 , * de missâ . l. 6. 1. 12. sextum . * in part . 3. tho●●e tom . 3. q. 83. dis . 220. art . 1. c. 3. * cornelius à lapide in heb. 7. 28. a sacrificium verum & reale veram & realem occisionem exigit . bell. de missa , l. 1. c. 27. denique vel in missa . b ibid. a sess. 13. de eucharist . cap. 4. b sess. 13. cap. 2. c luke 11. 27 , 28. a in canone missae . b ep. 7. ad bohemos . c in aquin par . 3. qu. 80. art . 8. d artic. lovan . 15. a in 3. thomae qu. 75. art . 1. b contra captiv . babyl . cap. 10. c in 4. sentent . qu. 6. lit . f. d in 4. distinc. 11. q 4. art . 14. e in 4. q. 6. f loc. com . l 3. c. 3. g tom. 3. in 3. dis . 180. c. 5. h traitiè p. 793. i de euchar. l. 3. c. 23. a artic. lovan , 13. b repet . 3. c. 3. c in tom. 3. dis . 60. sect . 2. d de eucharistia , l. 1. c. 11. * bel. de euch. l. 1. c. 11. a de euch. l. 1. c. 11. ad quartam dico . a de eucharist , l. 3. c. 19. b bellarm. de eucharist . l. 3. c. 19. * 1 place de la messe . a a popish book , called , scripture mistaken , p. 276. a sum. qu. 80. art . 3. b can. 39. glossa in can. c. 2. de consecratione . a bell. de sacramentis in genere , lib. 1. c. 9. &c. 11. b de invocat . c sanct . lib. 1. c. 18. a instit. 1. book . b beatit . sanctorum . l. 1. c. 8 sect . ult . a quorum meritis precibusque rogamus . b de indulgentiis , l. 1. c. 4. c in martiali , ann. 1493. d in canone missae sect . 80. e in 1 tim. 2. dis . 8. p. 467. f concord . evang. tom. 1. l. 6. c. 11. g in amphitheatro honoris . * against perkins of images . a de adoratione l. 3. dis . 3. c. 2. p , 455 , & 458 , a see dallaeus de imaginibus . b lib. 7. contra celsum . arnobius lib. 6. lactant l. 2. c. 2. eusebius de preparatione evangelicâ , lib. 3. & lib. 4. in praefat. c epiphanius haeresi . 97. per totum . a lib. 9. instit. mor. c. 6. art 3. b in thom. part . 3. qu. 25. art . 3. c tom. 3. disp. 6. qu. 11. punct . 6. d enchirid. p. 438. e de imag. l. 2. c. 21. prop. 1. * vasquez de adoratione . * aquila , symmachus , theodotion , sic iosephus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 philo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . a de adorat . l. 2. des . 4. c. 2. b in rom. dis . 29. sect . prima● * see nullity . c. 3. a bel. de purgat . l. 1. c. ult . b in consut . luther . art . 18. c adv . hareses ●… 12. tit . purgat . f. 258. * in locum . d bell. de purg. l. 2. c. 9. ● . iam. vero . a in purgatorio animae nec mereri nec peccare possunt , bel. de purg. l. 2. cap. 2. animae in purgatorio certae sunt de suâ salute , ibid. cap. 4. a de missâ p. 156. a concil . trident. ses . 14. de poenitentia cap. 4. b ibid. ast; ibid. a in 3. thom. qu 90. art. 1. sect . omittimus . b in locum . c relect de poenit . part 6. ast; scotus & omnes decretorum interpretes inquit maldon in summâ qu. 18. art. 4. cajet . in ioh. 20. 22. bell. de poenit . l. 1. c. 4. a luk : 18. 13. mat. 9. 2. act. 2. 38. & 3. 19 , & 22. 16. * de poeniteutiâ a act. 9. 4. 2 cor. 1. 7. heb. 11. 27. b act. 9. 16. & 14. 22. 2 tim. 3 12. c tho. est. iustin in locum . a de poenit. l. 3. c. 3. b ia 3. partem thomae qu. 84. art . 3. b ia 3. partem thomae qu. 84. art . 3. a bell , de indulg . l. 1. c. 13. * concil . trident. de poenitentia . a cap. 11. can . 32. b de iustificat . l. 5. cap. 16. & 17. c de iustif . l. 5. c 3. d in explic , artic , lovan . tom. 2 art. 9. c ibid. art . 8. d in 1. secundae tom . 2. dis . 214. e de iustif. l. 5. c. 17. f ubi supr . * lib. 5. cap. 17. * de iustif. lib. 5. cap. 19. a bell. de iustif. l. 5. c. 5. sect . quart . a iob 9. 2. b psal. 130. 2. c 1 cor. 4. 4. d de iustiff . l. 1. c. 19. * in manuali de communione sub utraque specie . a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 orig. contrac elsum . lib. 8. b quoniam in plerisque partibus intra candem civitatem & dioecesin , permixti sunt populi diversarum linguarum , habentes sub una fide varios ritus & mores , districtè praecipimus , ut pontifices hujusmodi civitatum provideant vires idoneos , qui secundum diversitatem rituum & linguarum divina officia illis celebrent , c. 9. c ex hac pauli doctrinâ habetur , quod melius ad aedificationem ecclesiae est orationes publicas , quae audiente populo dicuntur , dici linguâ communi clericis & populo , quàm dici latinè . cajet . in 1 cor. 14. full and easie satisfaction which is the true and safe religion in a conference between d. a doubter, p. a papist, and r. a reformed catholick christian : in four parts ... / by richard baxter. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. 1674 approx. 400 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 106 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a26931) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 63024) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 305:7) full and easie satisfaction which is the true and safe religion in a conference between d. a doubter, p. a papist, and r. a reformed catholick christian : in four parts ... / by richard baxter. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. [24], 189 p. printed for nev. simmons ..., london : 1674. first ed. cf. nuc pre-1956. reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. (from t.p.) i. the true stating of our difference -ii. the true easie and full justification of the reformed or protestant religion -iii. the protestants reasons and charges against popery enumerated -iv. the first charge, viz. against transubstantiation made good. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng catholic church -controversial literature. protestantism. 2005-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-10 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-11 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2005-11 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-01 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion full and easie satisfaction which is the true and safe religion . in a conference between d. a doubter , p. a papist , and r. a reformed catholick christian . in four parts : i. the true stating of our difference , and opening what each religion is . ii. the true easie and full justification of the reformed or protestant religion . iii. the protestants reasons and charges against popery , enumerated . iv. the first charge , viz. against transubstantiation made good : in which popery is proved to be the shame of humane nature , notoriously contrary to sense , reason , scripture and tradition , or the judgement of the antient and the present church ; devised by satan to expose christianity to the scorn of infidels . by richard baxter . london , printed , for nev. simmons , at the princes arms in st. pauls church-yard . 1674. and still continueth so to do . and while i can say , that i know of no nobleman living who hath read more of my writings than you have done , all that know the end of writing , will consent , that there is no noble name which i should prefer . and as i long ago read in the learned spanhemius's dedication of his dubia evangelica p. 3. to you ( well joyned with the famous usher ) the predication of your judicium supra aetatem maturum , rerum omnium cognitione subactum pectus , and that as attested by the illustrious duke of rohane , the most sagacious arbiter of ingenies ; and years and experience have been long adding to your knowledge : being not a stranger to the truth of this my self , i have great reason to be ambitious to stand right in your esteem : ( for who reverenceth the judgement of ignorant readers ? or doth not reverence the judgement of the wise ? ) and therefore to give you an account of my self and of this writing ; since i overgrew that religion which is taken up most on humane trust , by increasing knowledge i increased mens displeasure ; and my judgement not falling just into the mold of any sect among church-dividers , there is scarce any sect which doth not , according to their various interests , signifie their displeasure . some only by magisterial censures ; more credibly acquainting the world , what they are themselves , than what i am , or what is my judgement . but from others i take a meer slander for clemency , and as philostratus saith , de dicto phavorini ) et dum socratis cicutam non bibam , aereâ privari statuâ non laedit . simple christianity is my religion : i determine to know nothing but christ crucified ( and glorified . ) and i am past all doubt , that till simple christianity become the terms of church-unity and concord , the church will never see unity or concord , which shall prove universal or durable . so certain am i , that the wits of the learned , much less of the community of vulgar christians , will never arrive at the stature , of concord , in numerous and difficult points : nor the marvellous diversity of educations , occasions , temperatures and capacities , be ever united in any thing but what is plain and simple . and as certain am i , that the universal conscience of true believers will never unite , in any thing which is not evidently divine . and yet as certain am i , that the forsaking of the determination of the holy ghost and the apostles , acts 15.28 . and of pauls decision , rom. 14. & 15. hath been the engine of church-divisions and many calamitous distractions to this day : and that that blessed prince who must have the honour and comfort of beginning the true healing and concord of the churches , must pare off all their superfluities , and leave them at best among their things indifferent , and unite them on the terms of simple christianity . and as to popery i have certainly found , that the cross interests and passions of disputers have made us ( though really too distant ) to seem commonly about many doctrinals more distant than indeed we are : and that it had been better with us , if such men as judicious ludov. le blank , had had the stating of our controversies at the first , that differing words and methods might not have passed with either side for damnable errors in the faith . i mean in the points of fore-knowledge , predestination , providence , predetermination , concurse , original sin , free-will , universal redemption , sufficient grace , effectual grace , the nature of faith , justification , sanctification , merit , good works , certainty of justification , and of salvation , perseverance , &c. for my knowing this to be true , i am censured by those on one extream , as too favourable to the papists ( being indeed an enemy to injury , calumny , uncharitableness or cruelty to any in the world . ) but i am much more displeasing to the roman party ; because i know , that one man is naturally uncapable of being the monarch of all the world : that the king of rome ( as the geographia nubiensis calls him ) was never by christ made king of kings and lord of lords : that he never was , nor can be a pastor at the antipodes , and over all the earth , or as far as drake and candish did navigate : that it 's a sorry argument , [ monarchy is the best government : ergo , an universal monarchy is best : ] that the government setled in nature and scripture , is for princes to rule churchmen and all , by the sword , and the pastors of all particular churches , to rule their congregations by the church-keys , that is , by the word , using synods for due concord and correspondency : and this much will do better than all the stir that the clergies ambition hath made in the world . i know that the pope standeth on no better a foundation than the other four patriarchs : and that he was but the chief prelate or patriarch in one empire , as the archbishop of canterbury is in england ; and that the greek church never took his primacy in that one empire to be of divine right : for if they had , they had never set up the patriarch of constantinople against him , who never claimed his primacy as jure divino . i know that the great council of chalcedon decreed , act. 16. bin. 734. [ we following alwayes the definitions of the holy fathers and the canon , have our selves also defined the same things , concerning the priviledges of the same most holy church of constantinople , new rome ; for to the seat of old rome because of the empire of that city , the fathers consequently gave the priviledges : and the one hundred and fifty bishops most beloved of god , being moved with the same intention , have given equal priviledges to the most holy seat of new rome : reasonably judging that the city adorned with the empire and senate , shall enjoy equal priviledges with old regal rome . ] i know that their late bishop of chalcedon saith ( against bishop bramhall , survey , pag. 69. ) [ to us it sufficeth , that the bishop of rome is st. peters successor ; and this all fathers testifie . but whether he be so jure divino vel humano is no point of faith . vid. bellarm. 1.2 . de pont. l. 12. and holden analys . fid . l. 1. c. 9. p. 161. multa sunt quae traditione universa firmiter innituntur ( puta s. petrum fuisse romae ) quae revelata non sunt ; ideoque ab articulorum fidei catholicae numero excluduntur . i know that there never was such a thing as a true universal council in the world ( unless christ and his apostles were such ) ; nor ever must , or will , or can be . i know that they were called universal but as to one empire : and that emperours called them together , who had nothing to do without that empire ; and that ( unless accidentally any inconsiderable number ) no churches out of the empire were summoned , or sent their bishops thither : which needs no other proof than the knowledge of the limits of the roman empire , and the notitiae episcopatùum , and the names subscribed to each council in binnius and the rest . i know that long ago their raynerius said ( cont. waldens . catal. in biblioth . patrum tom. 4. p. 773. ) [ the churches of the armenians , and ethiopians , and indians , and the rest which the apostles converted , are not under the church of rome . ] and that godignus and others make no doubt but the abassines had the faith from the dayes of st. matthew and the eunuch . i know that theodoret. histor . sanct. patr. c. 1. saith , [ james the bishop of nisibis came to the synod of nice ; for nisibis then obeyed the roman empire . ] nothing can be more plain . i know that jacob. de vitriaco ( and others ) say ( hist . orient . c. 77. ) that [ the churches of the easterly parts of asia alone exceeded in number the christians either of the greek or latin churches ] : and that brochardus that lived at jerusalem saith , that [ those called schismaticks by us are far better men than those of the roman church . ] and to perswade the kings of other kingdoms , that the necessary way of church-union , is to unite all their subject-churches under the patriarchs of another empire , is no wiser than to tell all the world that they must be under the bishop of canterbury . i know that it was long ere our antient britains , and especially your scots , would so much as eat with the roman clergy , ( as beda sheweth . ) and i know that their melch. canus saith , ( loc. com. cap. 7. fol. 201. ) [ that not only the greeks , but almost all the rest of the bishops of the whole world , have fought to destroy the priviledges of the church of rome ; and indeed they had on their side both the arms of emperours and the greater number of churches : and yet they could never prevail to abrogate the power of the one pope of rome . ] was this pope then ( or the roman church ) universal ? besides that , to this day , they are but about the third or fourth part of the christian world . and i know that general councils are their religion : and what the general approved council at lateran sub innoc. 3. hath decreed against temporal lords and their dominions , and absolving of their subjects from their oaths of fidelity : besides what greg. 7. hath said in his concil . rom. of his power to take down and set up emperours . the knowing of these things , maketh me taken for their enemy . and their image of worship in an unknown tongue , with their bread-worship and multitude of ludicrous deceitful toyes , are things which my soul can never be reconciled to : much less to that renunciation of humanity which hereafter i detect , in the following treatise . and having given you this account of my self , i add as to this treatise , 1. it grieved me to hear that so many refused the parliaments declaration against transubstantiation : and i desired to shew them what it is . 2. instead of joyning with those who talk much of the danger of popery in the land ( to keep it out , ) i thought it better to publish the reasons which satisfie me against it , and leave the success of all to god. 3. and having occasion to re-print the first part of my key for catholicks , with corrections , instead of the name before prefixed , ( of one whose face i never saw , nor ever had a word from , but ignorantly endeavoured to have provoked him to do good ) i thought your name fittest to be gratefully substituted , who were the first then that checked my imprudent temerity . though i was not so vain , as to expect of late in your multitude of greater business , that you should read over my more tedious writings , i despair not but you may find leisure in perusing this , to see that i have prefixed your name to nothing , but what sense and reason and religion do avow . and so craving your pardon for the boldness and tediousness of this address , i rest , your graces humble much obliged servant , richard baxter . august 27. 1673. to the reader . this dialogue cometh not to you , from an apprehension of any extraordinary excellency of it , as if it did much more than is already done : but as extorted by mens necessity ; 1. because so many ignorantly turn papists of late ; 2. and some are pleased to say ( i dare not say , to think ) that it is long of men in my condition ; 3. and it is the art of the papists ( which our vanity encourageth ) to seek to bring the old books into oblivion ( which are unanswerable ) and to call still for new . the intended use of this is , 1. to tell those that will dispute with a papist , on what terms and in what order to proceed , lest they be cheated into a snare . 2. to teach the ignorant doubters truly to understand , wherein the difference between us and the papists doth indeed consist ; that the talk of sectaries calling that which displeaseth them , popery , nor the scandal of our real or seeming divisions , may not delude them , nor papists puzzle them by putting them to prove every word in our thirty nine articles or other writings . 3. to resolve all that will be resolved , by senses , reason , scripture , or the judgement and tradition of the church . of the multitude of reasons against popery enumerated , i have here made good but one , by a special disputation ; because i would not make the book too big . the rest i shall easily prove in another volume , if greater work and shortness of life do not hinder it ; ( which i fully expect . ) and lest i have no more opportunity to answer their charges against us on the other side , i have reprinted and added ( corrected ) the first part of my key for catholicks , where it is long ago done , and never answered . there is extant one piece of theirs against me , unanswered , called , mr. johnson's rejoynder about the visibility of the church : which i seriously profess i have left unanswered , as utterly unworthy of my precious time , till i have no greater matter to do , which i hope will never be . and he that will well study his opening of the terms in the latter end , will see to how pitiful a case they are reduced . i conclude with this solemn profession , that i am satisfied of the truth of what i write , and must dye ere long in the faith which i here profess , and lay my hopes of endless happiness on no other way : and that i would joyfully receive any saving truth , from papists or any other , who will bring it me , with such evidence as may make it indeed my own . the lord unite us by truth , love and humility . amen . septemb. 1. 1673. richard baxter . the contents . part i. what is the protestants religion , and what the papists ? pag. 1. chap. 1. the occasion of the conference : with an humbling consideration to staggerers . ibid. chap. 2. the conditions of the conference . p. 6. chap. 3. what is the religion of the protestants . of the name protestant : the augustane and other confessions : the thirty nine articles : the essentials of christianity to be distinguished from the integrals and accidentals . p. 9. chap. 4. what is the papists religion : out of veron , davenport , &c. p. 25. part ii. fourteen principles in which the papists and protestants seem agreed ; by which the protestant religion is by the papists confessed and maintained to be all true . p. 40. part iii. twenty five charges against popery enumerated , to be all in order proved ; as reasons why no one that hath religion , or sense and reason , should turn papist . p. 61. part iv. the first charge made good , viz. against transubstantiation : in which popery is fully proved to be the shame of humane nature ; contrary to sense , reason , scriptvre and tradition , or the judgement of the antient and the present church ; devised by satan to expose christianity to the scorn of infidels . p. 75. chap. 1. the first reason to prove that there is bread after the consecration , from the certainty of the intellects perception by the means of sense . ibid. twenty reasons against the denying of common senses . p. 77. chap. 2. the papists answers to all this confuted . p. 88. chap. 3. the second argument against transubstantiation from the contradictions of it . p. 96. chap. 4. the third argument from the certain falshood of their multitudes of feigned miracles in transubstantiation . thirty one miracles in it enumerated ; with twenty aggravations of those miracles . p. 99. chap. 5. the minor proved , viz. that these miracles are false or feigned . p. 110. chap. 6. arg. 4. transubstantiation contrary to the express word of god. p. 117. chap. 7. arg. 5. all these miracles are proofless : yea , the scripture abundantly directeth us otherwise to expound , this is my body . p. 123. chap. 8. arg. 6. transubstantiation nullifieth the sacrament . p. 128. chap. 9. the novelty of transubstantiation , as contrary to the faith of the antient christians : and the singularity , contrary to the judgement and tradition of most of the christian world . p. 132. chap. 10. the second part of the controversie : that it is not christs very flesh and blood into which the bread and wine is turned . p. 146. chap. 11. the conclusion : the scandal of our difference removed . whether the falshood of one article prove the papists foundation false ? whether it do so by the protestants ? whether papists have any more infallibility than others ? the necessity of discerning the essentials of christianity . the distinction of explicite and implicite faith considered . how come so many princes , nobles , learned men , and whole nations to be papists ? all christians besides papists , are of one church , though of many opinions . how come so many among us at home of late inclinable to popery ? what hope of concord with the papists ? how to help them off their councils ? snares in the point of transubstantiation . of their denying the cup to the laity . p. 152. reader , i hope the printers errata are not many , and i am discouraged from gathering them , because i see men had rather err themselves , and calumniate the author , than take notice of them : so hath mr. danvers done by me in a book against infant baptism , where as an introduction to abundance of mistakes in history , he abuseth his reader by several scraps of a book of mine , so curtail'd as to be insufficient to signifie the sense ; and among them feigneth me to write ( chr. direct . p. 3. pag. 885. l. 13. [ to institute sacraments ] as that which man may do , instead of [ nor to institute sacraments ] ; and so maketh his credulous flock to believe that i assert that very thing which i write against : though the place was markt with a star in the errata , and the reader desired specially to correct it . but such dealing is now grown so common with such men , that we must bear it as the effect of their disease . part . i. what is the protestants religion , and what the papists . chap. i. the occasion of the conference . d. sir , i am come to crave your help in a matter of great importance to me : i was bred a protestant ; but the discourses of some roman catholicks , have brought me into great doubts , whether i have not been all this while deceived : and though i cannot dispute the case my self with you , i desire you to dispute it in my hearing with a catholick priest whom i shall bring to you . r. with all my heart : but let me first ask you a few questions . quest . 1. did you ever understand what the protestants religion is ? d. i take it to be the 39 articles , liturgie and government of the church of england . r. no wonder if you be easily drawn to doubt of that religion which you no better understand . can you hold it , and not know what it is ? quest . 2. do you know what it is to be a christian ? d. it is to believe in christ , and to love and obey him. our baptism is our christening . r. very true : and in your baptism you are dedicated and vowed to god the father , son , and holy ghost , renouncing the lusts of the flesh , the world and the devil . quest . 3. and have you been a true christian , and lived according to this vow ? have you obeyed god more than the desires of your flesh ? have you preferred the kingdom of heaven before all the pleasures , honours and riches of this world ? have you sincerely submitted to the healing saving doctrine , law and example of christ , and to the sanctifying motions of his holy spirit ? and have you lived soberly , righteously , and godlily in the world , and made it your care and business to deny your self , and mortifie all fleshly inordinate desires , as it is the care of sensual men to gratifie them ? d. i have had my faults as all men have ; but i hope none can say but i have lived honestly towards all ; and if i have been faulty in drinking , sports or gaming , it hath been to no ones injury but my own . r. i ask you not whether you are a sinner ; for so are all men . but whether you are a truly penitent , converted sinner ; and whether yet you are true to your baptismal vow and covenant ? can your conscience say , that you love , and trust and obey god , and your redeemer , before all the world ; and that you love not pleasure , riches and honour , more than god and holiness and heaven ? and that it is more of the care and business of your life , to know and love and serve god better , and to make sure of your salvation , than to please your flesh , or prosper in the world ? in a word ; do you heartily and in your practice , take god for your god , even for your all , and christ , for your teacher , king and saviour , and the holy ghost for your sanctifier , turning in heart and life , from the devil , the world , and the sinful pleasures of the flesh ? this is the question which i desire you to answer . but i will prevent your answer lest you mistake my purpose , and think i make my self your confessour , and i will tell you why i ask the question . either you have thus kept your baptismal vow , by a godly life , or else you have broken it by worldliness and sensuality , &c. if you have kept it , and are a truly godly person , you have resolved your own doubt , and absolutely confuted popery already . for no honest man and true christian can possibly turn papist without gross contradiction . d. how prove you that . r. most easily : i pray you do but mark : 1. it is their principal doctrine that the pope is the head of the universal church on earth ; and that the church subjected to him , is the universal church ; and that out of that church there is no salvation ; and that no one is a true member of christ and his church , who is not a subject of the pope . 2. and they all confess that every one shall be saved that is a true christian , and keepeth his baptismal covenant , and that loveth god above all . so that they must needs hold that none in the world but papists , do truly love god , & keep that covenant , and are true christians . now if you can know that you have the true love of god , and are true to your baptism , you must needs confess that popery is false , which saith that none love god above all but papists . d. but what if i have not loved god , and obeyed him , above my flesh ? r. i 'le tell you what followeth . 1. it is no wonder if you forsake the protestants religion , who never truly entertained it . if your heart and life were not devoted unfeignedly to god , you were no true christian , nor indeed had any true religion at all : and he that hath no religion , turneth from none which he truly had . if you were never a true christian , you were never a true protestant : and then what wonder if you turn papist ? for you have no experimental knowledge of that religion which you seem to forsake . 2. and how could you expect better , but that god should penally forsake you , and give you over to believe deceits , if you have dealt so falsly and deceitfully with him , as to live to the world and flesh which you renounced , and neglect that god and saviour and sanctifier to whom you were so solemnly devoted ? and if you have been so treacherous and unwise , as to prefer a bruitish transitory pleasure , before gods love and the joyes of heaven ? 3. and what honour is it to the church of rome , that none but infidels and false-hearted hypocrites , and perfidious breakers of their covenant with god , did ever turn to them ? if you turn papist , you confess that you were a wicked hypocrite before . 4. but the chief thing which i would tell you is , that turn up and down as oft as you will , to this church or that church , to this side or that side , you will never be saved , unless you become a holy , serious , mortified christian : as long as you love pleasures , wealth and honour more than god and holiness and heaven , you shall never be saved , whether you be papist , or a professed protestant . it would make the heart of a christian ake , to see so many thousands cheated by the devil , to take this opinion or that opinion , called the true faith , and this side or that side , called the true church , to be to them instead of a holy heavenly heart and life . and how many thousands , especially papists , that are truly of no religion , do dispute , and plot and disquiet the world , as for religion . to hear a prophane man swear that his religion is right ; or that man to think to be saved for being of the true church and faith , whose heart was never set on heaven , but liveth in drunkenness , lying , idleness , fornication , and thinketh that the priests absolution sets all right again . without true holiness no man shall be saved , what church soever he joyn with ; and with it no man shall be damned . for god cannot hate them that have his nature , and image . d. well sir : i came not to dispute with you , but to desire you to meet a roman catholick priest , that i may hear you both together . r. i have the greater hopes of you , because you have so much regard of your soul , as to be willing to hear what can be said . for most that turn to them , never come to an impartial tryal , but rashly follow the deceiver , or stay till they are secretly hardened by false insinuations , and then take on them to desire to hear both , when they are first resolved to be gone . but you must tell me what is the question that you desire should be disputed . d. i would know whether the papists or the protestants be the true , and safe religion ? r. i undertake to give you that plain undenyable evidence for your resolution , which should fully satisfie any reasonable man , at least that professeth himself a christian : so be it you will perform these reasonable conditions : 1. that you will be impartially willing to know the truth . 2. that you will honestly resolve to live according to it when you know it , and to be true to the true religion . 3. that you will bring such a man to confer with me , who will yield to the reasonable conditions of a disputant , such as your doubt and the nature of the matter doth notoriously require , and not a knave , and studied deceiver , who will set himself purposely to hide the truth . d. these conditions are so reasonable that i must not deny them . chap. ii. the conditions of the conference ; between a p. and r. and d. r. sir , i am desired by this person , who is brought by some of you to doubt of our religion , to debate this case with you in order to his satisfaction , whether the papists or the protestants be the true and safe religion ? p. that is too large a question : we cannot dispute of all our religion at once : i will begin with you , about some one of the articles of the church of england , or the visibility of your church in all ages , or the resolution of your faith , &c. and this i will do only on these conditions , 1. that you bring some express text of scripture , which without your interpretation , reasonings or consequences , doth assert that article of yours which i shall accuse , or contradict any article of our faith , which shall be questioned . 2. or if you will go from the express words to reasoning , that we keep to the strictest rules of logick , and that you use nothing but syllogism , and that all be done in writing , and not by word of mouth . r. neighbour d. you promised me to bring another kind of disputant : you hear his conditions : you shall hear my answer . 1. the case which you told me you were in doubt of , and desired satisfaction in , was which is the true and safe religion ? this he refuseth to dispute . pretending that we cannot dispute of our whole religion at once . but did you never hear him give any reasons against our religion ? if he have , why can he not do it now ? i expect not all in a word , but let him give them one by one , and say his worst . i am sure i can give you many against theirs : and we will after debate them particularly as largely as you please . 2. if writing be it that you desire for your satisfaction , i ask you , whether you have read all , or the fourth part , of what is written against popery already . have you read dr. challoner of the catholick church ? dr. white , dr. field , dr. downame of antichrist , chillingworth , dr. abbot , dr. willet , bishop vsher , bishop morton , dr. stillingfleet , and an hundred more ? why should i expect that you should read what i shall write , if you will not read what 's written already ? 3. can you stay so long unresolved without injury to your soul , till he and i have done writing ? you cannot but know , that from sheets we must proceed to the writing of volumes , in answering each other , as others have done . and this is like to be many years work , for men that have other business : and how know you that we shall all live so long ? 4. are you able when it cometh to tedious volumes to examine them , and find who is in the right ? or will you not rather take him to conquer , who hath the last word ? and it 's like that will be the longest liver ? 5. and as to a strict syllogistical form , do you understand that best ? i avoid it not , but shall consent to use it as far as you understand it . do you know all the logical forms of arguing , all moods and figures , and all the fallacies ? or do you not perceive , that you have broken your promise with me , and brought a friend of darkness , who cometh purposely to hide the truth ? d. i must needs profess , that the question which i would have debated , is , which is the true and safe religion ? and that it is not tedious writings , nor long delayes , but present conference which must satisfie me . and that it is plain scripture and reason that must satisfie me , who understand not logick . i pray let me hear your own conditions which you think more just . r. the conditions which the nature of the cause directeth us to , are these . i. that we first truly state the question to be disputed : for we cannot dispute till we are agreed of what : that is , 1. that we agree what we mean by our [ religion ] ; and 2. that i tell you , what is the religion of protestants , which i undertake to defend : and that he tell us what is the religion of the romanists , which must be compared with it . ii. that our conference consist of these several parts . 1. that premising the principles in which we are agreed , i tell you the reasons why you should not be a papist . 2. that he tell you the reasons why you should turn papist , or what he hath against our religion . 3. that then we come to dispute these reasons distinctly : where i will prove my charges against them , and he shall prove his charges against us one by one . iii. and that in all our disputes , we shall consent , 1. not to interrupt each other in speech ; but if the length seem to overmatch the hearers memory , we will take brief notes to help our memories , as we go , and crave the recitation of what shall be forgotten : for the strength of truth lyeth so much in the connexion of its parts , that when it is mangled into scraps by uncivil interruptions , it is deformed and debilitated and cannot be well understood . 2. that we bind our selves by solemn promise , to speak nothing which we unfeignedly judge not to be truth , nor any thing designedly to hide or resist the truth which we discern . these terms are so just and necessary , that i will avoid him as a fraudulent wrangler who will deny them . for i come not to scold , nor to try who hath the strongest lungs , the nimblest tongue , or the lowdest voice , or the greatest confidence , or fiercest passion ; but to try who hath the truth , and which is the true way to heaven . for the servant of the lord must not strive ; especially about words and barren notions ; for that doth but tend to increase ungodliness . d. your method is so reasonable , and so suited to my own necessity , that i must profess no other can so much tend to my satisfaction : and therefore i hope it will not be refused . ( here after long opposition , the p. at last agreeth to these terms ) . chap. iii. what is the religion of the protestants . r. i. the word [ religion ] is sometimes taken objectively ; and so i mean by it ▪ [ the objects of religious belief , love and practice , ] which are , 1. the things themselves ; which are the principal objects ( called by logicians , the incomplex terms . ) 2. the organical object ; or the revelation of these things ; containing 1. the words or other . signs : 2. the sense or notions signified . for instance , matth. 17.5 . [ this is my beloved son in whom i am well pleased . ] here 1. the real incomplex object is christ himself , the beloved son of god , and god the fathers well-pleasedness in him . 2. the signal part of the organical object , or revelation , is the words themselves , as spoken then , and written now . 3. the signified notions are the meaning of the words , and are the chief part of the organical object , that is the divine revelation . the word [ religion ] is of larger extent in its sense than [ faith ] ; for it containeth all that revelation which god hath made necessary to salvation ; which is twofold , 1. that which is to inform the understanding with necessary knowledge and faith . 2. that which is necessary to a holy will and a holy life , to the love of god and man , and to well doing ; which are precepts , promises and threatnings . ii. the word [ religion ] is oft taken also subjectively ( as they speak ) ; for the acts and habits of love and obedience . now i suppose we are agreed that it is not religion in this last sense that we are to dispute of ( which is as divers as persons are : ) but it is that which we call objective religion , even the organical part directly . and if by all this d. understandeth us not , in plainer words , our question is , of the true divine revelation , viz. which is the true rule of faith , will and practice ; that which is held to be such by the protestants : or that which is held to be such by the papists ? p. i grant you , that this is the state of the question . r. i here declare to you then , what is the religion of the protestants . it is the light and law of god concerning holy knowledge and belief , holy will and practice , contained in nature and the true canonical scriptures . here note 1. that our religion hath its essential parts ; and its integral parts and accidentals . i. the essentials of our religion , are contained in the baptismal covenant ; which is expounded in the creed , the lords prayer , and the decalogue ( as delivered and expounded by christ , and the law of nature . ) ii. our entire religion , in the essentials , integrals and needful accidentals is contained wholly in the law of nature and the canonical scriptures . the essentials are delivered down to us two wayes : 1. in scripture with the rest ; 2. by the sure tradition of the vniversality of christians , in actual baptizings , and the daily profession of christianity . this is all the protestants religion . if you fasten any other on us , we deny it ; we own no other . and none know what is my religion , that is , what i take for the rule of my holy faith , love and life , so well as my self . p. this is meer craft : you will make that only which is past controversie among us , to be your religion , that so your religion may be past controversie too . r. it is such craft as containeth that naked truth , which we trust all our own salvation on . i say that i have no other religion ; and if you know better than i , disprove me . p. i disprove you three wayes . i. because the name protestant signifieth no such religion , but somewhat else lately taken up . ii. because the angustane confession , the thirty nine articles and such like , are by your selves called the articles of your religion . iii. because all your writings declare , that besides these , you hold all those controverted points , which are contrary to that which you call popery . r. i pray you mark d. that he would perswade you that he knoweth my religion better than i do my self ? what if i should pretend the like as to his religion ? were i to be believed ? p. no : but if you have an odd religion of your own , that proveth it not to be the protestant religion . r. remember d. that i come not hither to perswade you to any other religion , than this which i have mentioned . let him talk as long as he will what is other mens opinions , i perswade you to nothing but this , to take gods law of nature and the scripture for your religion . either this is right or wrong . if right , fix here and i have done . if wrong , let that be disputed . but yet i open to you all his three deceits . i. the name protestant doth not signifie our religion , but our protesting against the papists corruptions and additions . i have no religion but christianity : i am a christian , and that signifieth all my religion . i am a catholick christian , that is , of the common christian faith and church , and not of any heretical dividing sect : and i am a reformed protestant christian , because i renounce popery . therefore i rather say [ the protestants ] than the [ protestant ] religion . as if i were among lepers ; if i say , i am no leper , that signifieth not my essence : but if i say , [ i am a man , and i am not a leper , ] i speak my nature , and my freedom from that disease . so if i say i am a christian protestant , i mean only that i am a christian , and no papist , or renouncing popery ; as by the word [ catholick ] i renounce all sects and schisms . i tell you , this is my meaning , when i say , i am a protestant : and can you tell my meaning better than my self ? ii. and as to what he saith of the thirty nine articles and other church confessions , i answer , none of these are our religion , in the sense now in question ; that is , they are not taken by us to be [ the divine revealed-rule of our faith , love and life ] which is our religion now disputed of . and that this is so , i prove to you past all question . for 1. else should we have as many religions as we have church confessions , and should alter our religion as oft as we alter our confessions ; and our religion should be as new as those confessions : all which the protestants abhor . 2. all those very confessions themselves do assert that gods word is our only religion , and all mens writings and decrees are lyable to mistakes : to pass by all the rest , these are the words of our sixth article , [ holy scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation : so that whatsoever is not read therein , nor may be proved thereby , is not to be required of any man , that it should be believed as an article of faith , or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation ] . what would you have more plain and full ? and in the book of ordination , it is askt [ are you perswaded that the holy scriptures contain sufficiently all doctrine required of necessity for eternal salvation ? through faith in jesus christ ? and are you determined out of the said scriptures to instruct the people committed to your charge ? and to teach nothing ( as required of necessity to eternal salvation ) but that which you shall be perswaded may be concluded and proved by the scripture ? ] is not this plain ? p. why then do you call the thirty nine articles the articles of your religion ? and what is their use ? and why are all required to subscribe them ? r. 1. their use is to signifie how the conjunct pastors who use them do understand the holy scriptures in those points : and that partly for the satisfaction of all forreign churches , who may hear us accused of heresie or error ; and partly to be a hedge to the doctrine of young preachers , to keep them from vending mistakes in the churches , and also to try the soundness of their understandings . 2. the confessions , and articles , and catechisms are our religion , as the writings of perron , bellarmine , suarez , &c. or many of these agreeing , are the roman religion : they are not the divine revelation and rule of faith and practice to us : but they are the expression of our own conceptions of the sense of several chief matters in that rule or revelation . so that they are the expression of our faith or religion taken subjectively ( for acts and habits ) and not our objective rule it self . our sermons and prayers are our religion in this sense : that is , the expression of our own religious conceptions : and so are your sermons and your writings also to you . but if this were our rule of faith and life , and so our divine objective religion , then we should be of as many religions , as we are several persons : for every one hath his several expressions : and every new sermon , or book , or prayer , would be a new part of religion . and so with you also . so that this doubt is past all doubt : our confessions are but the expressions of our personal belief , and not our rule of faith. iii. and as to your third pretence ( that we have other articles as opposite to popery ) i answer , our religion as a rule of faith and worship is one thing ▪ and our rejecting all corruptions and additions is another . e. g. my religion is , that our god is only the true god. if now i say also , that hercules is not god , and bacchus is not god , and venus , mars , mercury , pallas , neptune , pluto , ceres , &c. are not gods ; is this a new religion , or an addition to the former ? if the baptismal covenant be the essentials of my religion , and the creed , lords prayer and decalogue the explication of it ; and if the scripture be my entire religion , and if the papists will come and add a multitude of new articles and corruptions , my rejecting of those additions , is no more an alteration of my religion , than the sweeping of my house , or the washing of my hands is an alteration of them . so that notwithstanding all that you have said , my religion is nothing but the law of nature and scripture , and my rejecting of popery , is no otherwise my religion , than my freedom from the leprosie , &c. is my humanity . p. observe , i pray you , that it is no part of your religion to be against popery . r. observe i pray you , that popery is against my religion , that is , against much of the christian religion ; and therefore my religion is against popery . but i will not quarrell with you about words : when god hath revealed to us his will , and the papists add their corrupting inventions , gods revealed will is my religion : your corrupting additions are contrary to it : call my rejecting such corruptions and additions , by the name of my religion reductively ( as nihil is objectum intellectus , & malum voluntatis ; and as non-agere is part of obedience ) ; or call it no part of my religion in the primary notion , but a rejecting of its contraries ; so we understand each other i care not . the truth is , the rejecting of some of your errors , directly contradicting the scripture it self , may be called part of our religion , as the negation of the contrary is included in the sense of an affirmative : but your remoter additions , are contrary to our religion , but not so directly . for instance : when the scripture saith , there is bread after consecration , and you say there is no bread : my religion containeth the assertion , that there is bread : and so includeth a contradiction to your negative , that saith [ there is none ] . now to say , that it is none of my religion to deny your negative , who say there is no bread , would import that it is none of my religion which affirmeth that there is bread . contradictions cannot both be true : properly that word that saith there is bread is my religion : but this word contradicteth you that say there is none . but in another instance ; my religion saith , that the righteous shall go into life everlasting , and the rest to everlasting punishment ; and tells us of a heaven and hell only hereafter : and you tell us of limbus patrum & infantum , and of purgatory : the scripture enableth us by consequence to confute this : but if it did not , it were enough for me to say , it is none of my religion , because not revealed by god in nature or scripture ; and as it is your addition , so to deny it , is not directly and properly my religion it self , but the defence and vse of my religion . god tells us in scripture , that he created heaven and earth . if one should assert as from god , that god created ten thousand heavens and ten thousand earths , this is a faith of his own invention or addition , and it is enough for me to say , i have no such faith ; because god revealeth no such thing . so tha● still the scripture is the protestants religion as your polydor virgil truly describeth them , and others confess . p. all this is meer delusion : for it is not the words , but the sense that is your religion ; as you will confess . and if your articles or confessions contain a false sense , or your books or sermons shew that you falsly expound the scripture , your religion is then false . r. such confusion may cheat a heedless hearer : but any one that will take heed , may quickly perceive , that you here fraudulently play with the ambiguity of the word [ religion ] and quite turn to another question . for you now speak of subjective religion , that is , of the acts and habits of the person : whereas we are disputing only of objective religion , which is gods revelation and our rule . if i understand any texts of scripture amiss , my faith is so far defective in my selfs ▪ but gods word , which is my rule , is never the more imperfect . i pray you consider how justly you have spoken . 1. is a mans act of faith , gods word or revelation ? 2. what need you dispute of the protestants religion , if we have as many religions as persons ? for it is as certain that we have as many degrees of our understanding many texts of scripture ? 3. would not this prove also as many religions as persons among your selves ? is it not most certain that no two papists in the world , have just the same sense or conceptions of the scriptures and councils in each particular . the law of god is my only religion , objectively , as how disputed of : if i mistake any essential part of it , so as to deny it , i am personally a heretick : if i mistake any integral part , i so far err from the rule of my religion or faith . but i still profess , that i take gods word or law only for my sure unchangeable rule or objective religion , and i am daily learning to understand it better , and as soon as i see my error i will reform it , and blame my self and not my rule . and i think you will say the same of your rule and of your personal errors . p. this shall not serve your turn : for every law must have its promulgation : and if it be not manifested to you that scripture is gods law , and sufficient , it cannot be your rule : i ask you therefore , qu. 1. is it the scripture in the original , or in the translations , which you say is your religion , law or rule ? r. i told you our divine rule consisteth of words and meaning . it is only the originals which are our rule or religion as to the very words ; that is , only the original words , were of that divine inspiration . but every translation is so far gods word , in sense , as it expresseth truly the sense of the original words . p. qu. 2. i pray you what then is the religion of all the unlearned protestants , who know not a word of the originals ? they may see now that you have stript them of all divine religion . r. their religion is the same objectively with that of the most learned , as delivered from god ; but it is not equally learned and understood by them ; gods word in the original tongues is given them as the rule of faith and worship ; and teachers are appointed to help them to understand it . when these teachers have translated it to them , they have the same sense , though not the same words , for their religion . and to know the words is not so necessary to salvation , as to know the sense ( or sentence ) though by other words : for the words are but means to know the sense ; and the sense but a means to know the things , ( viz. god , christ , grace , glory , &c. ) and as they have the same god , christ , spirit , grace , glory , &c. to be the real objects of their religion , so have they the same do-doctrine and law in sense which is in the originals . p. q. 3. and i pray you , how shall the unlearned be sure that the translations are true as to the sence ? when you have no divine infallible translators ? r. i also ask you . 1. how was all the greek church for many hundred years sure of the soundness of the translation called the septuagint ? or that of aquila , theodot . symmachus , &c. when it is certain that in many things they were all unsound ? 2. how was the latine church sure of the soundness of their translation before hierome amended it ? and how have you been sure since then , when pope sixtus , and pope clement have made so many hundred alterations or differences ? had you then infallible translators ? and why then do your translators ( as montanus and others ) still differ from that vulgar latine ? 3. and how do all your unlearned persons know that you give them not only the true sence of the scriptures , but of all your councils or traditions ? but i will answer you directly . we still distinguish the essentials of our religion , from the integrals and accidentals . 1. the unlearned may be certain that the essentials are truly delivered them in sence : because they have them not only in the scripture , but by vniversal certain tradition , in the constant vse of christian baptism , and in the use of the creed , lords prayer and decalogue in all the church-assemblies : and they may easily know that mens tempers , countreys , interests , opinions in other points , and sidings are so various , that it is not a thing possible without a miracle , that all these should conspire both in a false translation , and vniversal assertion and tradition of all these essentials . for the effects must be contrary to a torrent of causes : the papists , protestants , arians , greeks , socinians , lutherans , calvinists , anabaptists , separatists , &c. have so much animosity against each other , that undoubtedly if any party of them did falsifie scripture even in the essentials which are easily discerned , multitudes would quickly detect it and contradict them . and this the unlearned may surely and easily discern . but as for all other less necessary texts of scripture , neither you nor we , learned or unlearned , are certain that they are perfectly translated , nor are they by any one perfectly understood , nor are they sure ( by reason of the various readings ) which copie of the original is absolutely faultless . 2. but suppose that an unlearned weak believer were not absolutely certain ( as he may be ) that the very essentials of christianity are truly opened to him , he may yet grow up to better understanding , and he may be saved with some doubtings of christianity it self , so be it his faith be more prevalent than those doubtings , upon his heart and life . p. is it a safe religion which you your self describe ? when no man can be sure that he rightly understandeth all the scriptures ? and when your believer is uncertain , even of christianity it self ? let d. judge whether this be a sure religion . r. the word of god is absolutely certain in it self ; but that so much uncertainty may be in believers , i will make you to your shame confess your self , and recant these insinuations . q. 1. dare you say that all your church , or any one man , even the pope himself , doth understand all the scripture ? or can perfectly and infallibly translate each word ? you dare not say it . else why did he never once pretend to give us either an unerring commentary or translation ? and why have you such great diversity of both ? q. 2. how much less dare you say that any of you perfectly understand all the councils , which are the rest of your religion ? no nor that you have certainty which are the true copies of them all ? else why do caranza , crab ; surius , binnius , nicolinus , &c. give give us such various copies ? and yet you confess the scriptures to be gods word , and with the councils to contain your religion . q. 3. if god have promised salvation , to all that truly hold and practise the essentials ( the baptismal covenant ) doth the difficulty of other points ( in genealogie , chronologie , history , by matters ) either make our salvation ever the less certain , or any way impeach the word of god ? what disgrace is it to a man that besides head and heart , he hath fingers , and toes , and nails and hair ? no more is it to the scripture , that as our entire religion , it containeth even integrals and accidentals . q. 4. and as to a doubting believer , i ask , dare you say that all those were infidels or in a state of damnation , who said , see the roman catech. where this is confest , cap. 1. q. 1. pag. 9. lord increase our faith ? or lord we believe ; help our unbelief ? or to whom christ said , why are ye afraid o ye of little faith ? or that said , luk. 24. we trusted that this had been he that should have delivered israel ? or if a man should doubt even of the life to come , and yet his faith be so much more powerful than his doubts , as that he resolveth to prefer his hopes of heaven before all this world , and to seek it on the most self-denying terms , even to the laying down of life it self , are you sure that this man shall be damned ? but this is the course of pievish wranglers . to maintain their own opinions and put a face of certainty on their own conclusions , they stick not to damn almost all the world . for it will be no less , if all doubting believers must be damned . 5. it is a gross delusion to pretend that there is a necessity , that all gods infallible word , must needs be taught us by as infallible inspired prophets or other persons , as those that first delivered it . translation is but the first part of exposition . and must we have none but infallible or prophetical expositors ? 6. is it all the scriptures , or but some part , that your pope or councils can infallibly both translate and expound ? if but some , we need not their infallibility or inspiration , for the most plain and necessary parts : it is and can be done without them . if it be all , how impious and cruel are they that would never do it to this day ? 7. and why use all your expositors the common helps of grammars , lexicons , teachers , long studies , and yet differ de side ( even of the sense of many a text of scripture ) when all is done , if your pope have the gift of infallible translating and expounding all ? p. remember that your selves derive your essentials from tradition . r. yes , and our integrals to : what objective presence to the senses , ( eyes and ears ) of those that heard christ and his apostles , and saw their miracles was to the first converts in those times , that partly tradition is to us , or the necessary medium . the words could not come down to us , without some to deliver them . we have the bible by tradition , and we have practical tradition of baptism and the creed by it self , and that in many languages ; where we are sure we have all the necessary sence . but do you remember that this is vniversal tradition , and not meer roman tradition ; such as is certain by moral evidence , even the consent of all that are yet of cross opinions and interests , ( as to matter of fact ) ; historical evidence ; and not the pretended certainty of a pope and his favourites , phanatically claiming a spirit of infallibility . but i am not now disputing with you , i am only telling you that the protestant religion is nothing but christianity and the scriptures . and all our confessions are our religion ( besides consent ) but as our sermons and treatises are , which vary as they are various expressions of mens various subjective faith ; while gods word varyeth not . p. if the bible be your religion , then the ceremonial law of moses is your religion : for that is part of the bible . r. you study what to say against another , and never think how it concerneth your selves . 1. is not the bible at least part of your religion ? you dare not deny it . and is the ceremonial law of moses therefore your religion ? 2. i told you that as a perfect man hath hair and nails , which are but accidents , so the bible hath more than the integrals of our religion . 3. the ceremonies of moses in that sense as now they are delivered to us in the bible , are parts or appurtenances of our religion : that is , the historical narrative of those abrogated laws , which now bind us not as laws , but tell us ( as the prophesies ) what was heretofore , and how christ was fore-typified , and what intimations of gods will we may gather from the history . and the abrogated laws are no otherwise delivered to us , and so we must use them . p. if the ten commandments be your religion , you must keep the jewish seventh day sabbath : so that neither there can you fix . r. the same answer will serve . 1. the ten commandments are no otherwise part of our religion th●n they are of yours . 2. they are a law to us , as delivered and expounded by christ , and in nature : and the seventh day is an abrogated part of moses law. p. if the creed be your religion , you must take the article of christs descent into hell to be necessary to salvation . r. 1. is the creed no part of your religion ? as you answer , so may we . 2. i did not tell you that the creed had no more than the essentials . i told you that all the essence of christianity is in the baptismal covenant : and he that understandeth that , understandeth it all . and that the creed , the lords prayer , and the christian decalogue are the exposition of it . but the exposition may have somewhat more than the essentials . 3. the creed was not written first in english , nor latine ; and christs descent to hades is more needful to be believed , than his descent to hell , as the word is commonly taken in english . but , to conclude , remember , 1. that i profess here to own and plead for no other religion ( as we explained the word ) but gods law of nature and scripture . 2. that i profess to perswade d. to no other : and you cannot make me a religion against my will. chap. iv. what is the papists religion . r. i have plainly told you what my own , and the protestants religion is , viz. [ nothing but christianity ; contained integrally in the holy scriptures ; and the essentials being the baptismal covenant , explained in the creed , lords prayer and christian decalogue , are delivered to us both in the said scriptures , and by distinct tradition ; which also hath brought down to us the scripture it self : not a tradition depending on the pretended authority of the roman pope or party , or on any other that shall pretend the like ; but that historical evidence of matter of fact , which is surelier given us by all sorts of christians , taking in the concord of many hereticks , infidels and enemies ; which evidence dependeth not on the credit of supernatural revelation , but on the natural credibility yea and certainty of such universal circumstantiated concordant testimony ; and is necessarily antecedent to the belief of supernatural revelations in the particulars , as sight and hearing were in the auditors of christ and the apostles ; seeing these two acts of knowledge , [ whatever god saith is true ; and this god saith ] must necessarily go before our belief or trust that [ this is true , because god saith it . ] and so we run not in a circle , and need not a supernatural faith , for the founding of our first supernatural faith ; that is , a first before the first . ] without fraud or obscurity this is our faith and religion . now do you as honestly and plainly tell me what is yours , which d. must be perswaded to : for i confess that i take it to be an unintelligible thing , and despair that ever you give any man a certain notice , what it is , which may be truly called the religion of your roman-catholick-church . p. i shall make you understand it if you are willing : but 1. note that [ religion ] being a larger word than [ faith ] includeth also [ practice ] or [ manners ] , we must give you a distinct account of each : for they have not the same causes : our faith is divine ; but our manners or practice must follow the laws of the church , as well as the immediate laws of god : these must not be confounded . r. man hath three faculties , intellective , volitive and vitally executive , or active : our religion subjectively must be in all , viz. the sanctity of all , by holy life , light and love : and therefore the rule which is our objective religion doth extend to all , ( to intellect , will and practice ) . and surely for all , there is a rule directly divine , given by inspiration of the holy ghost or christs own words , and subordinate rules by christs ministers , which are directly humane , and no otherwise divine than as god hath in general authorized them thereto . even as the soveraign hath the only vniversal legislative power , and magistrates by him are authorized to subordinate mandates and acts of government . and so we have a divine faith and revelation , and a subordinate humane faith and ministerial revelation or preaching : we have divine perswasions , and subordinate perswasions of men : we have divine laws , yea and executions ; and we have humane subordinate laws and executions . if you resolve to call the humane , divine so far as they are indeed authorized by god , i will not quarrel about words : but remember , 1. that so you must do also on the same reasons , by the laws of kings and the commands of parents , who are as much authorized by god to their proper government . 2. and i hope you mean not to confound these humane laws , with gods own vniversal laws , nor humane faith with divine faith . and be it known to you , it is the divine revelations and laws as distinct from the humane , which we are now calling our religion , and disputing of ; though this religion teach us to obey parents , pastors and princes , and that obedience may be consequentially and reductively called religious if you please . but if really your religion be not divine , but humane , let us know it . for by the word [ religion ] we essentially mean that which is [ divine . ] p. men were the speakers and writers of the scriptures , and so far they are humane , as well as the decrees of the present church . r. the decalogue was witten by god , and delivered by the ministry of angels : christ was owned by a voice from heaven . and himself spake and did most recited by the four evangelists : and the prophets and apostles spake by the immediate infallible inspiration of the holy ghost : so that the holy ghost is the author of the scriptures . but the present pastors of the church instead of that immediate revelation from god by the spirits inspiration , have but the ordinary help of the spirit , to understand those same revelations , and that proportioned to the measure of their diligence , natural parts and helps of art , as the knowledge of theologie is attained by other students ; who are none of them perfect or free from error . p. i will tell you what our religion is , it is gods word concerning things to be believed and done delivered partly in the canonical scriptures , and partly by oral tradition , and received by the church , and by it delivered to us . the trent . catech. prefac . q. 12. saith , omnis doctrinae ratio , quae fidelibus tradenda sit , verbo dei continetur , quod in scripturam , traditionesque distributum est . the reason of every doctrine which is to be delivered to the faithful , is contained in the word of god , which is distributed into the scripture and traditions . vide concil . senonens . in bin. decr. 5. p. 671. & concil . tridentini sess . 4. p. 802. — perspiciensque hanc veritatem & disciplinam contineri in libris sacris , & sine scripto traditionibus , quae ex ipsius christi ore ab apostolis acceptae , & ab ipsi , apostolis spiritu sancto dictante quasi per manus traditae , ad nos usque pervenerunt , orthodoxorum patrum sententiam sequuta , omnes libros tam veteris quam novi testamenti , nec non traditiones ipsas , tum ad fidem , tum ad mores pertinentes , tanquam vel ore tenus a christo , vel a spiritu sancto dicta●as , & continua successione in ecclesia catholica conservatas , pari pietatis affectu & reverentia suscipit ac veneratur . bellarmin . de verbo dei , lib. 4. c. 2 , 3. sheweth the divers sorts of unwritten traditions which are part of gods word : some de side , as the perpetual virginity of mary , that there are but four gospels , &c. and some of manners ; as crossing , fast-dayes , &c. easter , whitsontide , and other festivals . veron de reg. fid . cap. 2. saith , [ the total and only rule of the catholick faith , to which all are obliged under pain of heresie and excommunication , is divine revelation delivered to the prophets and apostles , proposed by the catholick church in her general councils , or by her universal practice , to be believed as an article of catholick faith . ] [ all that is of this nature is an article or doctrine of faith . and no other doctrine can be of faith , if either the first condition fail , viz. divine revelation , or the second , which is a proposal by the universal church . ] p. 5. no doctrine grounded on scripture diversly interpreted , either by the antient fathers or our modern doctors , is an article of faith . for such a doctrine , though it may be revealed , yet the revelation is not ascertained to us , nor proposed by the church : — nor any proposition which can be proved only by consequence drawn from scripture , though the consequences were certain and evident , and deduced from two propositions of scripture — yet these doctrines are certain , when the premises are so . — gratians decrees — the papal decrees contained in the body of the canon law , none of them do constitute an article of saith — nor that which is defined in provincial councils , though the pope preside in person — for the second condition is alwayes wanting in this case , and very often the first — p. 11. i did not say that such definitions were not of faith — but they are not of catholick faith , or which all as catholicks are bound to hold as of faith , and the contrary to which is heretical , and removeth from the bosome of the church . — p. 12 , 13. the practice even of the vniversal church is no sufficient ground for an article of catholick faith , by reason the object of faith is truth : and oft times the church proceeds in matter of practice , upon probable opinions , and this probability is sufficient to justifie the practice , which the church on just cause may change : as e. g. as vasquez teacheth , the church did antiently pray in the mass for infidels alive , and catechumens dead , and the sacrifice of the mass was offered for them , and yet he — rather inclineth to the contrary , that the sacrifice of the mass ought not to be offered , but for the faithful living and dead , by which opinion the church seemeth guided at present . but vasquez answers , that the church following a probable opinion did practise that which she did not declare to be of faith . — p. 15. so general councils when they mention any thing in this manner ( by way of simple assertion ) and do not properly define : for as bellarmine affirms , it is necessary that general councils properly define the thing in question , as a decree which ought to be held as of catholick faith . hence bellarmine adds , they are not properly hereticks , who hold the pope not to be above all councils , though he say the last laterane council under leo the tenth ses . 11. expresly and professedly teacheth that the pope is above all councils , and rejects the contrary decree of the council of basil : because it is doubtful whether the laterane council defined that doctrine properly as a decree to be believed with catholick faith . the same bellarm. ( de concil . l. 2. c. 19. ) also requireth that the definition be made conciliarly : pope martin the fifth said , he only confirmed those decrees of faith which were made in the council of constance , conciliariter : that is , after the manner of other councils , the question being first diligently examined : but its clear ( saith he ) that this decree , that a general council hath immediate authority from christ , which all , even the pope , are bound to obey , was made without any examining — p. 17. the object defined must be truly and properly an object of faith ; and a decree ought to be on a thing universally proposed to the whole church — vasquez holds : it is not at all erroneous to affirm that a general council may err in precepts , and in particular judgements — and ( p. 19. ) in framing laws not necessary to salvation ; or making superfluous laws — without all doubt a general council may err in a question of fact : ( which depends on testimony and information of men : ) so the sixth general council condemned honorius of heresie by false information , and misunderstanding his epistles . — p. 20. the pope ( saith suarez ) to a particular action belonging to humane prudence , hath no infallible assistance of the holy ghost — as that such or such an excommunication is valid , or that such or such a kingdom is disposable by the pope for such and such causes . ] so far veron , who is most favourable to you , in narrowing our faith . r. thus far you have resolved me : but i must crave somewhat more . qu. i. are there no essential constitutive parts of your religion , more necessary than the integrals and accidentals ? have you no description for it , but that it is divine revelation proposed by the church ? the doctrine of sacrificing was a divine revelation to adam , and the difference of clean and unclean beasts to noah , and the jewish law was gods revelation to moses and them : and yet i suppose christianity is somewhat different from all these . is not christianity your religion ? hath christianity no constitutive special essence , but only the genus of divine revelation which is common to that with all other divine revelations ? and what if you add [ to a prophet or apostle ] ? was agabus prophesie of paul , or pauls of the event of the shipwrack , &c. essential to christianity ? hath christianity no essence ? or is all divine revelation essential to it ? p. you take advantage of the disagreement of our doctors . you know that some few acknowledg distinct fundamentals ; and some deny the distinction in your sense : and most of us say , that no man can enumerate the things necessary to all , but that it dependeth upon mens various capacities , educations , and means of knowing . and in sum , that no more is necessary to all to be explicitly believed , but that gods revelations are true ; and that all are gods revelations which the church proposeth as such . you may take our judgement much from him that cometh nearest to you , whom i have heard you much praise , as most moderate and judicious , viz. dr. h. holden anal. fid . l. 1. c , 5. lect. 2. p. 53. [ divines disputing of the necessity of points to be believed , do commonly tend this way , to denote the articles of things revealed , the explicite and express belief whereof , is ( as they opine ) altogether necessary to all christians . the resolution of which question is among them so doubtful and uncertain , as that they are in this ( as ☞ they are in all things else ) distracted and divided into various opinions : which they that care for them , may seek : to me they are as nothing , while the authors of them profess , that they have nothing of certainty . yea , to one that meditateth the matter it self , laying by all preoccupation , it is most clearly manifest , that the resolution of this question is not only unprofitable , that i say not pernicious , ( as it is handled by divines ) ; but also vain and impossible . it is unprofitable , because no good accrueth by it to souls . ☞ it is pernicious , while divines for the most part assert , that only one or two articles , yea , ( as some say ) no singular article at all , is necessary to be believed of all by an explicite faith . for hence ( however the truth of the matter be ) the colder christians taking occasion , do little care to obtain that degree of knowledge in the mysteries of faith , which they might commodiously and easily attain . it is impossible , seeing it is manifest , that no particular rule or points to be believed , or number of articles can in this matter be given or assigned , which shall be wholly common and necessary to all christians : for this dependeth on every individual mans natural capacity , means of instruction , and all the other circumstances of each mans life and disposition , which are to each man so special , that we can determine of nothing at all that is common to all . but i handle the necessity of points to be believed in a far other sense : for the articles of the christian faith , which i now call necessary , i do not at all understand to be such as all and every one must distinctly know , or hold by explicite assent ; but i mean only such , the belief of which is accounted universally by the whole catholick church , so substantial and essential , as that he that will deservedly be esteemed , and truly be a member of it , must needs adhere to them all at least implicitely and indirectly : that is , by believing whatsoever the holy and universal church doth catholickly believe and teach as a revealed doctrine and article of divine faith . and therefore he is for that cause to be removed from its communion and society , who shall pertinaciously and obstinately deny the least of them , much more if he maintain the contrary , while he knoweth and seeth that it is the universal sentence of that church , that we must adhere to that as an article of faith . and in this sense i will henceforth use the word necessity . r. this might have been said in fewer and plainer words , viz. that your divines herein do commonly err , and that perniciously , and yet that indeed he is of the same mind ; viz. that it is impossible to name the articles necessary to be believed explicitely of all , because each mans divers capacity , means and circumstances diversifie them to each : but that only this one thing is explicitely to be believed , [ that whatsoever the holy and universal church doth catholickly believe and teach as a revealed doctrine and article of faith , is true . ] and therefore that no man must pertinaciously deny any thing which he knoweth the church so holdeth . so that nothing is necessarily to be believed actually and indeed , but gods and the churches veracity . p. another of ours that cometh as near you as most , openeth this more fully , davenport alias fr. a sancta clara , de. nat. grat. p. 111 , &c. [ as to the ignorance of those things that are of necessity of means , or end , there is difference among the doctors : for soto 4. d. 5. q. 5. & l. de nat. & grat. c. 12. & vega l. 6. c. 20. sup . trid. hold that now in the law of grace there is no more explicite faith required , than in the law of nature . yea , vega ib. & gabriel 2. d. 21. q. 2. ar . 3. & 3. d. 21. q. 2. think that in the law of nature , and in cases in the law of grace , some may be saved with only natural knowledge , and that the habit of faith , is not required . whom horantius terms men of great name , and will not accuse of heresie . i would this great mans modesty were more frequent with modern doctors . yea , alvarez de aux . disp . 56. with others , seemeth to hold , that to justification there is not at all required the knowledge of a supernatural object ( or the supernatural knowledge of the object . ) others hold , that both to grace and glory is required an explicite belief of christ . bonav . 3. d. 25 , &c. others , that at least to salvation is an explicite belief of the gospel or of christ , though not to grace or justification . and this is common in the schools , as ferera shews that followeth it : and for this opinion scotus is cited — but i think he holdeth , that explicite belief of christ or the gospel , is not of necessity of means as to grace or glory , as 4. d. 3. q. 4. what is plainer than that now — men may be saved without the explicite belief of christ — and i plainly think its scotus's and the common opinion , which vega followeth , and faber 4. d. 3. and petigianis very well , and of the thomists bannes 2.2 . q. 2. a. 8. canus and others : yea , the trent council seemeth to favour it , sess . 6. c. 4. — p. 114. so corduba , medina , bradwardine . — ☞ and such ( as have no explicite faith in christ ) are not formally without the church . this way go victoria in 4. relect. 4. tit . richard de villa med . 3.25 . a. 3. q. 1 , &c. well saith petigianis 2. d. 35. q. 1. a. 9. that if there were a simple old woman to whom some false opinion were preached by a false prophet ( e. g. that the substance of bread remaineth with the body of christ in the sacrament ) and she believe it : doth she sin by this ? no. — p. 119. yea , if she so err through piety , thinking that the church so believeth , perhaps she should merit . — p. 120. for my part i think that the vulgar committing themselves to the instruction of the pastors , trusting of their knowledge and goodness , if they be deceived , it will be taken for invincible ignorance , or at least probable , ( as herera ) which excuseth from faultiness . — yea , some doctors give so much to the instruction of pastors , that have the care of the sheep , that if they should teach , that ☞ hic & nunc god would be hated , the rude parishioner were bound to believe him : which yet i think false — p. 123. it seemeth at this day to be the common judgement of the schools and divines , that the laity erring with their doctors or pastors are altogether excused from all fault ; ☞ yea , oft times so materially erring do merit for the act of christian obedience which they owe their pastors : as you may see in valent. to. 3. disp . 1. q. 2. p. 5. and others . so angles 2. d. 22. q. 2. dub . 7. vasqu . p. 2. disp . 121. in case they never doubted of the veracity of their prelates — much more saith sancta clara there , to prove that the ignorant protestants here may be saved ; citing further to his end , zanchez in decal . l. 2. c. 1. n. 8. alph. a castro , simanca , argon , tanner , faber , eman●sa , rozell . and out of argon tells us when faith is sufficiently proposed , viz. [ when faith is so confirmed by reasons , holiness of life , the confutation of the contrary errors , and by some signs , as that reason it self beginneth prudently to prescribe , that the matters of faith heard are to be believed , and the contrary sect is false . ] p. 125. and probl . 16. p. 127. whether men may be blamelesly ignorant of the law of nature and the decalogue ? the common opinion is that they may ; not of the first principles , but 1. of the easie conclusions for some time , and of the remoter conclusions for a longer time : such are the commandments of the decalogue as to the substance of the act ; as in some lying , theft , fornication , manslaughter ( in will at least ) &c. r. qu. ii. but do you think that men may not as invincibly and inculpably be unacquainted with the authority of the pope and roman councils or church , as you say they may be ignorant of christ , and the law of nature ? i instance in the millions of the abassme christians , who for above a thousand years never heard from the pope or his emissaries . p. that cannot be denyed : for they have not the necessary means . r. how then do you make your churches proposal to be the necessary point to be explicitely believed of all ? p. we do not mean it of all that will be saved : for you hear that some may be saved without any explicite belief of christ . but we mean it of all that will be in the church , and be saved there . r. but do you not hold and say , that out of the church there is no salvation ? p. some say so : and some say that it is rare out of the church . r. but are the ethiopian christians out of the church ? p. they are out of the true church , being schismaticks . r. why said your author before , that infidels were not formally out of the church who are invincibly ignorant ? p. but other doctors are of another opinion . r. but christ is the saviour of his body : are not those of the church who are saved , or in a state of salvation ? what hold you of that ? p. some say , they are all of the church : and others that christ saveth more than his church : and some say , that they are of the church regenerate , but not of the church congregate . but few own this , because it is your distinction : as of a visible and invisible church . r. qu. iii. but above all , i would know of you , what you mean by the catholick church , whose proposal is necessary to the being of faith ? p. we mean the roman catholick church : that is , the pope and his subjects . r. do you mean the pope without a general council , or a general council without the pope ? or only both agreeing and conjunct ? r. you take advantage of our differences : but those do but shew , that this is no point of faith . some hold that the pope alone may serve : and some , that the pope in a provincial council : and some that a general council without him : but you heard veron taketh in the council , and it is no true council without the pope : and therefore the surest opinion saith , that it must be both in concord . r. but what is the vniversal church whose practice is made sufficient instead of , or without a general council ? p. it is the whole roman church real , distinct from the representative . r. is it the clergy only , or the laity only ; or must it be both ? p. both , but not equally ; but in their several places . r. must it be all the church , without any excepted ? or only the greater part ? p. these are points not agreed of , and therefore not of faith . some say that it must be so many as that the dissenters be not considerable . but how many are considerable or inconsiderable is undetermined . others say , it may be the minor part that practise , so be it the rest do not contradict it , or do contrarily . r. i will trouble you with no more such questions , ( though i have a multitude which should be here resolved ) for i perceive that we must expect nothing but a maze of uncertainties and confusion . we are next in order to agree upon our common principles which must be supposed in our following dispute : for they that agree in nothing , are uncapable of disputing of any thing ; seeing all conclusions of which we doubt , must be drawn from more evident truths , of which we are less doubtful , and resolved into a conceded principle . part ii. the principles which papists and protestants are agreed in : and therein the full ●ustification of all the protestants religion . the first common principle : that we are men , having reason , and free-will , and sense ; whose natural way of knowing things sensible , is by the perception of our senses , having no way of greater certainty . r. i take it for a common principle , that we are men , having reason , and free-will , and sense : whose natural way of knowing things sensible , is by the perception of our senses ▪ and therefore that our rightly constituted or sound senses , with their due media , about their proper objects are to be trusted ; being either certain , or we have no certainty . p. i know what you intend : i grant it as you express it . r. it must then be granted us , that there is true bread and wine in substance remaining after the words of the mass-priests consecration . p. yes : when you can prove , that the consecrated bread and wine are the proper objects of sense : which we deny ; they being not now bread and wine . r. is it by the perception of sense that you deny it ? or by other means ? p. no : it is by faith and reason which are above sense . r. now you come to deny the principle which you granted : sense is the perceiver of its own objects : no faith , no reason can perceive them , but by sense : and if due sensation perceive them , and faith deny them , then faith denyeth sense to be the proper natural perceiver of its objects , and our judgement of things sensible to be such as must follow that perception . but we must dispute of this anon , and will not now anticipate it . only remember , that if you deny sense which is the first principle , no mortal man is capable of disputing with you , there being no lower principle to which we can have recourse , and resolve our differences . the second principle : that there is one only god , infinite in being , power , wisdom and goodness ; our owner , ruler and chief good ; most holy , just and true , and therefore cannot lye ; but is absolutely to be believed , and trusted , and loved . r. i need not repeat it : do you not agree with us in this ? p. yes : heathens ( that are sober ) and christians are agreed in it . r. you grant then , that this may be known by them that are no subjects of the pope . remember anon that we are not to be blamed for believing god. the third principle : that the whole frame of nature within us and without us ( within our reach ) is the signal revelation of god and his will to man ; called ( objectively ) the light and law of nature . r. i suppose that this also may pass for a common granted principle . p. yes , as you express it : if we agree not of the light and law of nature , we come short of infidels , and meer natural men . r. observe then , that we are justified by your principles , for believing and trusting gods natural revelation . the very first part of which is made to our senses : by natural evidence god sheweth us that bread is bread. p. yes : when sense is sound , and objects and media just , and god doth not contradict sense by supernatural revelation . the fourth principle : that natural revelation is before supernatural , and sense before faith , and we are men ( in order of nature at least ) before we are christians , and the former is still presupposed to the later . r. this also i suppose is a granted principle . p. it is so : but see that you raise no false consequents from it . r. i conclude from it , that he that denyeth the perception of sense to be the certain way of judging of things sensible , denyeth all the certainty of faith , and subverteth the very foundations of it : and that we are justified for our assenting first to gods natural revelations . it is god that made my senses and understanding , and god that made the object and media , as bread and wine , and therefore god deceiveth me , if i be deceived in taking it for bread and wine after consecration . but god is to be believed , in his first revelations . p. you vainly call sensation , and intellection or knowledge of things sensible by the name of believing . r. we will not vainly contend about the name , if we agree of the thing : but this leadeth me to another principle . the fifth principle : that the knowledge of things fully sensible hath more quieting , satisfying evidence , than our belief of supernatural revelations alone , as made to us by a prophet or apostle : and that where all the sound senses of all men living do agree about their near and proper sensible object , there is the most satisfying evidence of all . r. i suppose that we are all agreed also in this principle . p. as you word it we are : for our divines distinguish of evidence and certainty : and are so far from saying that faith hath more evidence than sense and knowledge , that it is ordinary with them to say , that this is the difference between faith and knowledge , and that faith hath not evidence : but yet it hath no less certainty . r. some men use words first to sport themselves out of their understandings , and then to use others to the same game . evidence is nothing but the perceptibility or cognoscibility of a thing : by which we call it knowable ; which is the immediate necessary qualification of an object of knowledge . certainty is either objective , which is nothing but this same cognoscibility or evidence as in a satisfying degree : or it is subjective or active , which is nothing but the infallible or true , and quieting satisfactory knowledge of a truth . where the certainty of object and act concurr : for no man can be certain of a lye or untruth : for to be certain , is to be certain that it is true : those therefore would befool the world , who would perswade men , that a clear and confident perception of an untruth , or confident error , is certainty . there may be objective truth and certainty of the matter , where there is not in us an active or subjective certain knowledge of it : but there can be no active certainty of an objective vncertainty , or certain knowledge of a lye . now if you mean that faith hath objective certainty without evidence of certainty , or ascertaining evidence , that is , but to say and unsay : it hath certainty and no certainty : for this certainty and evidence is all one . but if you mean that faith hath an active subjective certainty without an objective certainty in the matter , you speak an impossibility and contradiction : as if you said , [ i clearly see a thing invisible or without light . ] p. do you think that our divines knew not what they said , when they say that to believe without evidence maketh faith meritorious ? r. the old asserters of this meant the same that christ meant , when he saith to thomas [ blessed are they that have not seen , and yet have believed . ] there is a sensible evidence , and an intelligible evidence . faith hath not an immediate sensible evidence ; that is , we believe things unseen , and above sense : and this is their meaning : we see not god , christ , heaven , angels , &c. but faith hath alwaies intelligible evidence of verity ; and ( as our mr. r. hooker saith ) can go no further than it hath such evidence . however , i appeal to any that have not been disputed out of their wits , whether , if god would give us as full a sight of heaven and hell , and angels and blessed souls , as we have of the bread and wine before us , and as full a hearing of all that they say , in justification of holiness , or lamentation of sin , and as full sensible acquaintance with the world we go to , and our title to it , as we have with this world , i say , whether this would not be more ascertaining and satisfactory to us , and banish all doubts , more than our present faith doth ? i love not to hear men lie as for god , and talk and boast against their experience , as if the interest of faith required it . things revealed to faith are certain and infallible . but that is because we have certain evidence 1. that god cannot lie ; 2. and that god revealed them ; and so that they are true. but if we did see , feel , taste , &c. we should be more certain . else why is it said , that we now know but enigmatically and as in a glass ; and as children ; but hereafter shall see as face to face , and know as we are known , when faith is done away , as being more imperfect than intuition . we have evidence to prove , that the revelation made to david , isaiah , jeremiah , peter , paul , &c. were of god , and that their words are by us to be believed , &c. but to see , hear , taste , feel , &c. would be a more quieting assurance . therefore when all the sound senses of all men living , perceive after consecration , that there is bread and wine , this certainty is , 1. in order antecedent to that of faith , and 2. by evidence , more satisfying and assuring than that of meer faith , as to a prophets revelation ; and therefore to reject it on pretence of faith , is a subversion of all natural methods of assurance ; and is but pretended , i think , by your selves . the sixth principle . that except those immediate inspirations which none but the inspired do immediately and clearly perceive , we have no revelations from god , but by signes ; which are created beings ; and have their several natures , and so may be called physical , though signifying moral things . and thus far our natural and supernatural revelations agree . r. every being is either vncreated ( which is god only ) or created ( in a large sense , that is caused : ) what god revealed to christ , peter , paul , &c. we have knowledge of , but by signes : in scripture these signes are words : these words signifie partly the mind of god , and the speakers or writers , and partly the matter spoken or written . when it is said , that it is impossible for god to lye , it can mean nothing to us , but that it is impossible that god should make us a deceitful sign of his will. the voice of an angel , prophet , apostle , a thousand miracles , &c. are but signes of the matter and of gods will : and if god can ordinarily make false natural signes , we are left unassured that he cannot make false signes by an angel , or a prophet , or a miracle . and so all faith is left uncertain . p. then you will make god a lyar or deceiver whenever any man is deceived by natural signes . r. not so : for men may deceive themselves by taking those for signes of a thing which are none , and so by misunderstanding them . and the devil and bad men may promote this deceit . but whenever god giveth man so plain a sign of the matter and his will , as that no errour of an unsound sense , an unqualified object , a culpable or diseased fantasie or intellect , interveneth , then if we are deceived it can be none but god that doth deceive us ; which cannot be , because he cannot lye . and as it is an unresistible argument against the dominican doctrine of physical predetermination as absolutely necessary to all acts of natural or free agents , that if god physically predetermine every lyar to ivery lye , that is mentally conceived or uttered , then we have no certainty but he might do so by the prophets and apostles ; so is it as good an argument against papists , that ▪ if he ordinarily deceive the senses of all sound men by a false appearance of things seeming sensible , he may do so also by the audible or legible words of a prophet . the seventh principle . that he that will confute sense , and prove that we should not judge according to its perceptions , must prove it by some more certain evidence that contradicteth it . r. i suppose you will not question this . p. no : the word or revelation of god is a more certain evidence . r. how know you that there is any word of god , but by your senses ? p. but yet by sense i may get a certainty which is above that of things sensible . as i know by the world that there is a god , by a certainty above that of sense . r. 1. if that were so , yet if things sensible be your media , you destroy your conclusion by denying them , and undermine your own foundation . 2. but it is not true : the knowledge of the conclusion can be no stronger than that of the principles , even of the weaker of them . if you are in any uncertainty whether there be sun , moon , heaven , earth , man , beast , heat , cold or any created sensible being , you must needs be in as much doubt whether there be a god that made them . the eighth principle . that believing or assenting is intellection of the truth of something revealed , and therefore must have intelligible evidence of truth in the thing believed . r. i know that assiance or trust as it is the act of the will , reposing it self quietly on the believed fidelity of god , is not intellection . but the assenting act is an intellection or an act of knowledge of a verity ; not as science is narrowly confined to principles , but as knowledge is taken in genere for notitia . so to believe is no other than to know that this is true , because god saith it . joh. 6.69 . we believe and are sure that thou art that christ , &c. joh. 3.2 . we know that thou art a teacher come from god , for no man could do such works , &c. joh. 21.24 . we know that his testimony is true — see rom. 7.14 . & 8.28 . 2 cor. 5.1 . we know that if this earthly house , &c. 1 tim. 1.8 . 1 joh. 3.2 . joh. 8.28 , 32. 1 cor. 15.58 . we know that our labour is not in vain , &c. therefore your denying the certainty where the evidence is most notorious , and telling men of meriting if they will but believe your church , without any evidence of certainty , is a meer cheat . the ninth principle ▪ that jesus christ is the son of god and the saviour of the world , and that christianity is the true religion , and gods appointed sufficient way to heaven , including godliness , which is its final part . r. by christianity i mean both our believing , loving and obeying christ as the way to the father , and our believing , loving and obeying god our father , as the end of christs mediation : the knowledge of god and the mediator being eternal life , joh. 17.3 . and as taking a man for my physicion , is taking him , by his medicines to help me to my health , and so health is finally included ▪ so taking christ for my saviour , is to take him by faith to be the means of bringing me to the love of god and to glory : and so i include godliness in christianity , and the law of nature in the law of grace . p. we are agreed on the truth of this : but not of the medium by which it must be made known to us . r. at the present i ask no more than that we agree in christianity as the true and sufficient religion and way to life . the tenth principle . that baptizing is our christening : and that all that are truly baptized are christians , and members of the visible church , untill they apostatize or are justly excommunicate ( at least . ) p. i grant you all this as a common principle with christians . r. then you grant us , 1. that our religion is the true religion ; of gods appointment , sufficient to salvation : for it is christianity , which you confessed to be such . 2. you grant that we are baptized into the true catholick church , which is the body of christ . the eleventh principle . that all that are truly baptized have the pardon of all their sins , and have present right to salvation if they so die . r. i mean , that they that are internally true consenters to the baptismal covenant , and are baptized , have all these benefits of baptism : and that infants have them as rightly dedicated to god and baptized : do not you consent to this ? p. yes , you know we do . r. then you fully grant , that all among the protestants who in infancy or at age are truly baptized are in a state of salvation : why then would you make people believe that there is no salvation in our churches , when you grant the right to all that are baptized . p. but you are not baptized by lawful ministers . r. take heed what you say : your party holdeth that even schismaticks and hereticks baptism is valid , if they have all that is essential to baptizing in the doing of it : yea that a lay mans , or womans baptizing is valid . if you deny it , i will shame you , by producing the common consent of your doctors ; and your censure of cyprian , and making the contrary doctrine to be a heresie . p. but you have not all that is essential to baptism , because you are not intentionally baptized , into the true catholick roman church : for while you are not subject to the pope , you are not baptized into the church : and therefore bellarmine sheweth that indirectly we are obliged to the pope by baptism ; which you intend not . r. come , come , strive not against your knowledge . 1. if our baptism have not all that is essential , why do you never rebaptize protestants when they turn to you ? do you not find that you condemn your selves ? 2. why do not you your selves put the name of the pope into your words of baptism ? 3. doth your tradition tell you that the ancient churches did baptize men into a subjection to the pope ? 4. did any of the primitive christians baptize men into the name or subjection of peter or any apostle ? 5. doth not paul expresly renounce it as to himself and peter , 1 cor. 1.12 , 13 , 14 , 15. every one of you saith , i am of paul , and i of apollo , and i of cephas , and i of christ : is christ divided ? was paul crucified for you ? or were ye baptized in the name of paul , &c. 6. did not christ himself tell us all that was essential to baptism in his institution , matth. 28 without making any mention of peter or the pope ? p. i cannot deny but our doctrine inferreth that all that are baptized among you have a true sacrament , but not the benefit of it , and so are not in a state of pardon and salvation : or at least when you come to age , by refusing the pope , you turn hereticks and lose it . r. i know some of your divided writers say that we have sacramentum , but not rem sacramenti : but 1. you say that a character is imprinted by baptism , and all sin done away , and the person in a state of life , unless he come feignedly ; which you will not charge on infants , nor can you prove it by those of the anabaptists themselves that are baptized at age . and saith aquinas when the fiction ceaseth , the fruits of baptism are obtained . 2. and it will be long ere you will prove that to be baptized into the name of the trinity is uneffectual , if we leave out the pope . 3. and you will hardly make a man understand what you mean by the validity of the baptism of hereticks and schismaticks , if it neither take the baptized into the true visible church , nor the invisible ( or a state of saving grace ) . and as to infants losing it as you say at age by heresie . 1. will you save all the anabaptists , that are baptized at age ? if their baptism put them into a state of salvation , and they continue just of the same faith and mind that they were baptized in , sure that faith which put them in a state of salvation , will keep them in it ; or not be damning through defectiveness to morrow , which made them heirs of heaven to day . but you cannot make your doctrines hang together . 2. and they that are baptized in infancy are baptized into the same faith which they continue in at age . the minister intendeth no other : the parents , sponsors , &c. intend no other : and will that prove defective even to salvation after , which was saving then ? 3. if baptism make us christians ; and if christianity be the true religion , sufficient in suo genere to salvation , then we that continue in the christianity which we were baptized into , by your confession continue in the true saving religion ; and this is all our religion . p. it is not every one that owneth christianity that shall be saved : hereticks own it in general , and yet contradict it by their heresies . r. it is every one that truly owneth christianity in mind and will that shall be saved : else christianity were not a saving sufficient religion : the question is not whether objective christianity or faith be sufficient to save him that believeth not , or is not subjectively a christian ; nor whether the doctrine of faith be sufficient in omni genere : but whether it be a sufficient doctrine , or ob●ective faith , in suo genere ? if a heretick deny any essential part of it , he believeth not that which he ( really , understandingly and prevalently ) denyeth . it is but the name of christianity , and not the thing , which he owneth , who disowneth any of the essence . our question is now whether our professed objective faith be true and sufficient ? when you come to prove us heretical denyers of any of its essence , we will give you a sufficient answer . the twelfth principle . that the essence of our religion or christianity as active and saving , is faith that worketh by love : or such a belief in god the father , son and holy ghost , as is accompanied with a true devoting of our selves to him , by love and willingness to obey his laws , so far as we know them ; in opposition to the temptations of the world , the flesh and the devil : and he that is truly such shall be saved . p. i grant that he that truly loveth god , shall be saved : but a protestant cannot truly love god , because he hath not true faith . r. do you not agree and confess then , that if any protestants do truly love god , and are sincerely willing to obey his will , and to know it that they may obey it , such are of the true religion and shall be saved , and that popery which denyeth their salvation is false ? p. if your false supposition were true , these false consequents would be true : but you are all deceived when you think that you sincerely love god , and are willing to know and do his will. r. 1. let all protestants note this first , that you grant that none but ☞ falshearted hypocrites , that are not what they profess to be , and love not god , nor would obey him , should turn papists . 2. and if a man cannot know his own mind and will , what he loveth and what he is willing of , no not about his end and greatest concernments , how can he know when he believeth aright ? why do you trouble the world thus with your noise about believing the proposals of your church , if a man cannot know whether he believe or not ? ☞ and he that cannot know what he willeth , chooseth or loveth , can no more know what he believeth . for the acts of the will are more plenary and easily perceived . and do all papists know their own hearts or minds , but no protestants ? what would you expect but indignation and derision by such arguing as this , if you will go about the world and tell men , [ you none of you know your own minds and wills , but we know them ; you think you love god , and are willing to obey him ; but you are all mistaken , it is not so with you : but you must believe our pope and his council , and then you may know your own minds and hearts . ] they that believe you on these rates , deserve the deceit of believing you ; and punish themselves . the thirteenth principle . that when christ described all the essence of christianity , by our believing in and being baptized into , the name of the father , the son and the holy ghost , the apostles and first pastors of the churches , instructed people to understand the meaning of these three articles ; and the ancient creed called the apostles , is the exposition of them , as to belief : and that this creed was of old the symbol of the true faith , by which men were supposed sufficiently qualified for baptism , and distinguished from hereticks : which after was enlarged by occasion of heresies to the nicene and constantinopolitane creed ; to which that called athanasius's was added as a fuller explication of the doctrine of the trinity : and he that believed all these , was taken for one of the true christian religion , which was sufficient in suo genere to salvation . p. all that was then necessary to be explicitely believed , necessitate medii , was expressed in the creeds ( if not more ) : but not all that is now necessary when the church hath proposed more . r. 1. some of you say , no more is necessary ut medium , but to believe that god is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him : others say that the chief articles of the creed also are commonly necessary : and in your discord we lay no great weight on your opinions . 2. but is not christianity the same thing now as it was at the beginning ? is baptism altered ? hath not a christian now the same definition as then ? are not christs promises and the conditions the same ? shall not he that was a christian then , be saved if he were now alive ? may not we be christians , and saved by the same constitutive causes which made men christians , and saved them in the primitive churches ? subvert not christianity , and confound not the church , and cheat not poor souls , by labouring to hide the essence of christianity , and such plain important truths . you cannot deny our faith to be true , without condemning the ancient church and christianity it self : while we aloud profess that the christian faith explained in all the ancient creeds , is the faith which we own , in its essentials explicated . the fourteenth principle . that the books which the protestants commonly receive as canonical scriptures , are in the agreeing original copies , as to the very words , and in true translations as to the sence , the most true infallible word of god. r. i grant that where the copies disagree by various readings , we are no more sure that any of them is the word of god , than we are sure , that such a copy is righter than all that differ from it . but as long as the essence of christianity on which our salvation is laid , is in the covenant of grace , explained in credondis in the creed , and in petendis , in the lords prayer , and in agendis in the decalogue as explained by christ . and no one duty or material doctrine of our religion dependeth on the various lections , but those texts that agree are sufficient to establish them all ; yea , as franc. à sancta clara system . fid . professeth , the ordinary translations so agree , as that no material point of religion doth depend on any of their differences ; it is as much as we assert , that the agreeing original copies , and the sound-translations , so far as they are such , are the true infallible word of god ; the former both as to words and sence , and the later as to sence alone . do you not grant this ? p. we grant the scripture as you say to be gods infallible word ; but 1. you cannot know it to be so , because you take it not on the roman churches authoritative proposal ; 2. and you leave out part of it . r. 1. whether we can know it , shall be tryed in due place . 2. and whether we have all of it , or enough , is another question , to be debated when you will. you grant us expresly that which we now desire ; which is the infallible truth of our canonical scripture . and this is all our religion , containing not only the essentials , but all the integrals , and accidentals needful to be recorded . so that all the protestants religion is confessed to be infallibly true. and from hence further note , that in all our disputes , you are obliged to be the defendants , as to truth : for we deny the truth of much of your religion , but you deny not the truth of one word of ours : but only the plenitude or sufficiency . p. the name of a protestant was never known till luthers time : and the occasion of it was a particular protestation of the german princes , and not directly a protesting against popery . r. it is not names but religion which we dispute of . and it is that which each party professeth to be their religion . therefore you must take our profession or you change the subject of the dispute . and we profess , that the law of nature ( which no sober man questioneth ) and the scriptures , are all our religion . therefore if you please you shall suppose that the name protestant were not now in the world : it doth not signifie our religion . but we now use it to signifie our protesting against popery , or that we agree in substance , and in rejecting popery , with those that made that particular protestation mentioned by you . names are oft given from accidents ; as africanus , germanicus , britannicus , &c. to several roman captains ; when yet their humanity was the same before they were so named . p. turks , socinians , quakers , &c. protest against popery : it seems then they are protestants too ; and your companions . r. 1. thus some men study to deceive , by turning from the question to another . our question i tell you is whether the religion of the protestants be infallible ? and not , whence is their name ? 2. but by a protestant we mean only one that taketh the scripture for the rule , and christianity for the essence of his religion : which no one doth that denyeth any essential part of it . if we do so , prove it , and you shall have our answer . how do you judge of any man among your selves that taketh gods word proposed by your church for his religion , and yet mistaketh the church in any point : as durandus that thought the matter of bread continues , whom bellarmine yet denyeth to be an heretick . so is it with any among us that mistake the sence of scripture in some such point . when a name is put upon any person or party from a common accident , you may if you will call all by that name which that accident agreeth to : and so papists are called by some non-conformists now in england , because they conform not : but the world knoweth well enough that it is protestants which are commonly meant by that name , and not papists , quakers , seekers , &c. though these conform not . and so you may say if it please your self that turks , jews , heathens , socinians , quakers , ran●ers , are protestants , because they protest against , or reject popery : but the world knoweth who is meant by the name , even christians rejecting proper popery . and for my part , i deal openly with you , i care not if the name protestant were utterly cast aside ; if any man be so deceived by it as 1. either to think that it signifieth the essence of our religion ( unless you mean as we protest for christianity . ) 2. or that we take those called protestants for the whole catholick church , they make it an occasion of their own deceit : names of distinction are used , because men know not else readily how to speak intelligibly of one another without circumlocutions : and then cometh the sectarian , and taketh his party , for all the church ( at least which he may lawfully communicate with ) , and the name of his party to notifie his religion . and then comes the crafty papist , and pretends from hence that such a named religion is new ; and asketh you , where was there any ( e. g. ) protestants before luther ? my religion is naked christianity , the same as is where the name of a protestant is not known , and as was before it was known ; and as if the name of the pope had never been known . but now the pope and his monarchical vsurpation over all the world , are risen and known , i am one of those that protest against them , as being against christianity which is my religion ; but so as to addict my self to the opinions of no man or party that opposeth them , wholly and absolutely and beyond evidence of truth : i take the reformed churches , to be the soundest in the world : but i take their confessions to be all the imperfect expressions of men ; and the writings of protestant divines to be some more clear and sound , and some more dark , empty , and less sound , and in many things i differ from many of them . choose now whether you will call me a protestant or not ; i tell you my religion , which is simple christianity : names are at your own will. i could almost wish that there were no name known besides that of christian as notifying our faith and religion , in the christian world ( though as notifying heresie and sin , there must be proper names , as in rev. the name nicolaitans is used ) . even the word catholick had long a narrower sense in the empire with many than i now own it in . though as it signifieth one that is of the church vniversal , loveth vniversally all true christians , and hath communion with them in faith , love , and hope , so i like it , and am a catholick christian . i dispute for nothing else ; i perswade this person here in doubt , to nothing else ; but 1. to hold fast to true and meer christianity ; 2. to reject all in popery or any other sect that is evidently against it ; 3. to suspend his belief of all that 's doubtful , and to receive nothing as a part of divine faith or religion , till he be sure that indeed it is of god. and now these principles being supposed , let us proceed , and try whether popery be of god or not . part iii. the protestants reasons against popery . d. i have heard what you have said in stating the protestants religion : i now expect to hear what reasons you have against that which you call popery : and afterwards that you prove all that you charge upon it . but i adjure you first that you say nothing but what you believe in your conscience to be the truth , as one that looketh to be judged for it . r. with many papists confident and vehement protestations go instead of arguments , and we oft hear them say , [ if this be not true , i am content to be torn in a thousand pieces : we will seal it with our blood : we will lay our salvation on it : and do you think we have not souls to save ? &c. ] which is much like as if they would end all controversies by laying wagers that they are in the right , or by protesting that they are honester and credibler men than their adversaries : and it is no more than a quaker or other such sectary will say : the most proud and ignorant being usually the most confident : but yet though i expect not that you should receive any thing from me , upon protestations , but upon proofs , i will here promise you that i will charge nothing on the papists , but what in my conscience i am verily perswaded to be true . the reasons which resolve me against popery are these and such like . i. reason , their doctrine of transubstantiation is so notoriously false and inhumane , even contrary to the fullest ascertaining evidence that mankind can expect on earth , ( viz. for all men on pain of damnation to believe , that there is no bread , and no wine , when all the soundest senses of any men in the world , do perceive bread and wine , by seeing it , tasting it , feeling it , smelling it , and by the notorious effects ; and all this built upon no revelation of god , no reason at all , nor any true consent of the primitive church , but clean contrary to them all ; ) that i solemnly profess , that i find it an utter impossibility to believe it : and it often puts me to a doubt , whether it be possible for any mortal man unfeignedly and fully to believe it , and whether there be really any such papist in the world : or whether most do not for carnal respects take on them to believe it , when they do not ; or rather the vulgar understand their words , as not really excluding the true being of bread and wine ; and the rest only somewhat overawing their own reason with a reverence of their church , so far as not to contradict , or so far as notionally to own it , when they do not from the heart believe the thing . so many contradictions , absurdities , and impieties are to be by them believed with it , that i am sure no man that understandeth them , can possibly believe them all . and all this must be done by miracles , stupendious miracles , daily or common miracles , which every priest can do at his pleasure , and never fail , sober or drunken , greater than raising a man from the dead ; so that every beastly , sordid , ignorant priest , shall do more miracles by far , than ever jesus christ did in all his life on earth , as far as we know by the holy records , ( if he live as long ) . he that can believe all this , may next believe , that there is neither earth under his feet , nor the firmament over his head , nor water , nor air , nor any other creature , and that he hath no being himself . ii. reason : the faith or religion of the papists , as described by themselves , is so far from infallibility , as that it is utterly uncertain , unintelligible , and meer contradiction and confusion ; and a changeable thing ; so that no man knoweth whether he have it or not , and whether he have it all ; but whoever hath it , he hath certainly a hodge-podge of truth and falshood . iii. reason . their papacy , which essentiateth their church , is a horrid usurpation of christs own prerogative , and of an office to do that which is incompaparably above the natural power or capacity of any mortal man ; even to be the apostle and governour of the whole world ( of christians at least ) ; to take charge of all the souls on earth ; to teach and call those that are uncalled , and to rule those that are baptized : even at the antipodes , and in all those unknown or inaccessible parts of the world , which he hath no knowledge of : a far more arrogant undertaking , than to be the civil monarch of all the earth ; and utterly impossible for him to perform , and which never was performed by him . iv. reason . the said papacy is an arrogant usurpation of the power of all the christian princes and pastors upon earth , or of a power over them , never given by christ : it setteth up a kingdom in a kingdom , and taketh from pastors the power which christ gave them , over their particular flocks . v. reason . the said papacy is a meer humane institution : they confess themselves , that it is not of divine faith that the bishop of rome is st. peters successor by divine right : it is no article of their own faith : but history fully assureth us , that it was but in the roman empire , that the roman bishop was made supream : as the archbishop of canterbury is in england : and that he standeth on the same humane foundation as the other four patriarchs of the empire did . and that their general councils were called by the emperours , and were called general only with respect to that empire . and there never was such a thing as a general council of all the christian world , nor ever can be : and that there never was such , is most notorious yet by the names subscribed to all the councils . but they abuse the world , and claim that power over all the christians on earth , which one prince gave his subject-prelates in his empire : as if the general assembly of scotland or france should pretend to be a general council of the world , and the archbishop of canterbury should call himself archbishop of all the church on earth , and claim the government of it . vi. reason : the said papacy hold their claim of supream government as by gods appointment ( though they confess as before said , that it is not de fide , that the pope succeedeth peter by divine right ) and this notoriously contrary to the judgement and tradition of the far greatest part of the churches in the world : general councils ( such as they had ) and the sense of the greatest part of christians have determined against the papal claime . and tradition condemneth them to this day , while they plead tradition . vii . reason : it is treason against christ for the papists who are but a sect , and not the third part of the christians in the world , to call themselves the whole church , and unchurch all the rest , and seek to rob christ of the far greatest part of his kingdom , by denying them to be such : as if they would deny two third parts of this kingdom to be the kings . they are sectaries and schismaticks by this arrogant dividing from all the rest , and appropriating the name and priviledges of the church to themselves alone . viii . reason : by making an unlawful and impossible condition and center of church vnion , they are the greatest schismaticks in all the world : the greatest dividers of the church upon pretence of vnity : as he would be a divider of this kingdom , who would set up a vice-king without the kings authority , and say that none that subject not themselves to him , shall be taken for subjects of the king. ix . reason : they studiously brand themselves with satans mark of malice , or uncharitableness and cruelty to mens souls : while they sentence to damnation two third parts of the christian world , because they will not be the subjects of their pope : and they think their way to heaven is safest , because they are bolder than us in damning other christians : whereas love is the mark by which christs disciples must be known to all . x. reason : they are inhumanely cruel to mens bodies : and this is their very religion : for the council at the laterane under innocent the third decreed , that those that believe not , or deny transubstantiation are hereticks , and all temporal lords shall exterminate them from their dominions : that is , no man shall be suffered to live under any christian lord , that will not renounce all his senses , and profess that he believeth that they are all deceived by god himself ; which is not only to renounce their humanity , but their animality or sense it self . so that no men indeed , are to be suffered to live , but only such as deny themselves to be men : what heathens , what turks , did ever exercise such inhumane fury ? besides their burning and tormenting men as hereticks that will not do all this and more , and will not say as they require them . xi . reason : their church indeed is invisible , while they deny it , and an unknown thing : for , 1. men are forced into it by such bloody laws , as that they cannot rationally be known to be consenters : 2. and they have no certain faith to constitute a church-member : for they hold that his obligation to believe , is according to his inward and outward means , of which no man can possibly judge : and so no man can know whether himself or another have that faith which is required as necessary to salvation . and many of them say , that they that believe not in christ , have saving faith , and are in the church , if they had not sufficient means . xii . reason : the papacy doth intolerably tyrannize over kings , and teach such doctrines of perjury and rebellion , as their very religion , as is not in the practice of it to be endured in any kingdom ; nor dare they fully practise it : the crowns and lives of princes being at the mercy of the pope ; as the said laterane council sheweth . xiii . reason : their church is oft essentially unholy , heretical and wicked , because the pope is often so , who is an essential part of it : and therefore it is not the holy catholick church . general councils have upon examination judged their popes to be hereticks , schismaticks , adulterers , murderers , simonists , yea , guilty of blasphemy or infidelity it self . and the church cannot be holy , whose essential part is so unholy . xiv . reason : their churches succession is so notoriously interrupted , and their papacy so often altered in its causes , as that it is become a confounded and a meer uncertain thing . so many notorious or judged hereticks , simonists , murderers , sodomites , adulterers have possessed the seat , who were therefore uncapable , that the line of succession must needs be interrupted by them . and so many wayes have they been made or elected , sometimes by the people , sometimes by the city-presbyters , sometimes by emperours , sometimes by cardinals , sometimes by councils , that if any one way of election be necessary , they have lost their papacy long ago . if no one way be necessary , then the turk may make a pope . xv. reason : their church called one , is really two in specie ; one headed by a pope , and another by a general council : for while the head or supream ruler is an essential part , and one part of the people own one head and another part own another head , ( as they do ) the churches thus constituted cannot be one. and also de individuo there have been long two or three popes at once , and consequently two or three churches : and to this day none knoweth which was the right . xvi . reason : they plead for a church which never had a being in the world ; that is , all christians headed by one pope ; when all the christian world did never take him for their head , nor were governed by him to this day . xvii . reason : they dreadfully injure the holy scriptures , as if jesus christ , and all the prophets and apostles in all those sacred records , had not had skill or will to speak intelligibly , and plainly to deliver us the doctrines necessary to salvation : but they make their voluminous councils more intelligible and sufficient ; as if they had done better than christ and his apostles : and when men must only discern gods laws , and judge causes by the law , they make themselves judges of the law it self , that is , of god the judge of all , and of the law by which they must be judged . xviii . reason : there is no other sect of christians under heaven which hath so many differences among themselves , or have written so many books against one another as the papists : and though many of them are of great importance , yea , some are about the very essence or constitutive head of their church , yet have they no handsomer way to palliate all by , than by saying that these are but opinions , and no articles of faith , and the infallible judge dare not decide them : no though it be diversity of expositions of gods own word , yet commentators still differ without any hope of a decision , as if gods word were not to be believed , but were only the matter of uncertain opinion , till the pope and council have expounded it , and no more scripture is de fide than they expound . xix . reason : perjury is made the very character of their church , or the brand by which it is stigmatized ; as is visible 1. in the trent oath imposed on their clergy , which whoever taketh he is immediately perjured : and 2. by their disobliging men from oaths and vows ; even the subjects of princes from their oaths of allegiance , whenever the pope shall excommunicate them , and give their dominions to others , as is decreed concil . later . sub innoc. 3. can. 3. xx. reason : they are guilty of idolatry in their ordinary worship by the mass : while they worship bread as their lord god : nor will it justifie them to say , that if they thought it to be bread , they would not worship it : any more than it would justifie julian to say , that he would not worship the sun , if he thought not that it was god : and they confess , that if it prove to be still bread , their worship will prove idolatry : and we desire no other proof . and i am not able to justifie their sending god his worship by a cross , crucifix , or other image , as a medium cultum , from being a gross violation of the second commandment : ( which they leave out ) . xxi . reason : their religion greatly tendeth to mortifie christianity , and turn it into a dead image , by destroying much of its life and power : 1. by befriending ignorance , and hiding the holy scripture , forbidding all the people to read them in a known tongue without a special license : blaspheming gods word , as if so read , it had more tendency or likelihood to hurt men than to profit them , to damn them than to save them ; when they will say otherwise of all their own vulgar postils and such like writings . 2. and by teaching the people a blind devotion , viz. to pray in an unknown tongue , and to worship god by words not understood . 3. and by making up a religion much , if not far most , of external formalities , and a multitude of ceremonies , and the opus operatum of their various sacraments ; as if god delighted in such actions as befit not the acceptance of a grave and sober man ; or as if guilt and sin would be wiped off , and charmed away into virtue and holiness , by such corporeal motions , shews and words . xxii . reason : their religion , though it thus tend to gratifie the ungodly by deceitful remedies and hopes , yet is very uncomfortable to the godly . for , 1. by it no man can know that he is a true believer , and not a child of hell , ( much less that he shall be saved : ) for they teach that no divine can tell them what articles are necessary to be believed to salvation : but they must be so many as are suited to every ones capacity , and means , during his life . and no man living can know that he understandeth and believeth as much as his capacity and means were in their kind sufficient to : nay , there is no man that hath not been culpably ignorant of somewhat which he might have known . 2. mens sacramental receptions and comforts depend on the intention of the priest , which no man knoweth . 3. almost all godly men must expect the fire of purgatory : and consequently none of them can be rationally willing to dye : because this life is better than purgatory ; and no man will desire to go from hence into the fire : and so by making all men unwilling to dye , it destroyeth a heavenly mind , and killeth faith , and hope , and love , and holy joy , and tempteth men to be worldlings , and to love this life better than the next . yea , it tempteth men to be afraid of martyrdom , lest ( dying in venial sins , as all do ) they go to a purgatory fire , more terrible than martyrdom . xxiii . reason : their doctrine is not only contrary to many express texts of holy scripture , but also contrary to it self : one pope and one council having decreed one thing , and another the clean contrary . xxiv . reason : all this evil is made more pernicious , by that professed impenitence which is included in the conceit of their churches infallibility : for they that hold themselves infallible , do profess never to repent , of any thing in which they suppose themselves to be so . and as repentance is the great evidence of the pardon of sin ; so impenitency is that mortal sign of an unpardoned soul , without which no sin doth qualifie the sinner to be excommunicated by man , or damned by god : and a sin materially less , is more mortal unrepented of , than a greater truly lamented and forsaken . xxv . reason : every honest godly protestant may be as sure that popery is false , as he is that he is himself sincere , and loveth god , and is truly willing to obey him . and no man can turn papist , without self-contradiction , who is a true christian , and an honest man : for by turning papist he confesseth himself to be before a false-hearted hypocrite , who neither loved god , nor sincerely desired to obey him , nor was true to his baptismal covenant . for it is a part of popery to believe that none are in a state of salvation , but the subjects of the pope , or members of the papal church ; and consequently that no others have true faith , repentance or love to god : or else that god is false in promising salvation , to all that have true faith , repentance and love to god. all therefore that know their own hearts to be truly devoted to god , are safe from popery ; and seeing it is agreed on both sides , that none can or ought to turn papists but ungodly hypocrites ( or knaves ) no wonder if such are deluded by the most palpable deceits , and forsaken of god whom they perfidiously forsook . i will name you no more : if i make these , or any one of these good ( as i undertake to prove them all ) , you will see that i refuse not my self to be a papist without sufficient cause . and yet by this charge you will see that i am none of their extream adversaries : i pass by abundance of doctrinal differences , wherein by many they are most deeply charged : not as justifying them against all or most so charged on them , but 1. as giving you those reasons which most move my self , and which i am most able to make good , and leaving every one to his proper work : 2. and as one that have certainly found out , that in many doctrinals seeming to be the matter of our widest difference , we are thought by many to differ much more than we do ; 1. the difference lying most in words , and logical notions , and various wayes of mens expressing their conceptions : 2. and the animosity of men engaged in parties and interests against each other , causing most to take all in the worst sense , and to make each other seem far more erroneous than they are , and to turn differing names into damnable heresies : and 3. few men having will and skill to state controversies aright , and cut off mistaken seeming differences : 4. and few having honesty and self-denyal enough to incurr the censure of the ignorant zealots of their own party , by seeming but impartial and just to their adversaries . i mean in such points , as 1. the nature of divine faith , whether it be a perswasion that i am pardoned , &c. 2. of certainty of salvation , 3. and certainty of perseverance , 4. of sanctification , 5. of justification , 6. of good works , 7. of merit , 8. of predestination , 9. of providence and the cause of sin : 10. of free-will , 11. of grace , 12. of imputation of righteousness , 13. of universal redemption , 14. of original sin , and divers others : in all which i cannot justifie them , but am sure that the difference is made commonly to seem to be that which indeed it is not : in the true impartial stating whereof lud. le blanck hath begun to do the christian churches most excellent service , worthy our great thanks , and his bearing all the censures of the ignorant . part iv. the first charge made good against transubstantiation : in which popery is proved to be the shame of humane nature , contrary to sense , reason , scripture and tradition , or the judgement of the antient and present church ; devised by satan to expose christianity to the scorn of infidels . chap. i. the first reason to prove transubstantiation false . r. the papists belief of transubstantiation is , that there is a change made of the whole substance of the bread into the body of christ , and of the whole substance of wine into his blood . their opinion ( called their faith ) hath two parts : the first is , that there is no more true proper bread and wine after the words of consecration , hoc est corpus meum . the second is , that there is the true proper flesh and blood of jesus christ , under the species ( as they call them ) of bread and wine . it is the first that i shall now prove false : and you must not forget the state of the question , which is not , whether christs body and blood be present ? but whether there remain any bread and wine ? arg. i. if there remain no bread and wine after the consecration , then all the senses of all the sound men in the world are deceived , or all mens perception of these sensible things deceived , though there be due magnitude , site , distance of the object , a due abode , and a due medium and no depravation of the sense or intellect . but this consequent is notoriously false , ( as shall be proved ) therefore popery is false . 1. that all mens senses perceive bread and wine , or all mens intellects by their senses , will not be denyed . not only protestants , but greeks , mahometans , heathens , papists , all persons perception by sense is here the same : therefore it is sound senses or else there are none sound in the world . 2. it is not one sense , but all . the eye seeth bread and wine : the hand and mouth feel it ; the palate tasteth it ; the smelling sense smelleth the wine ; yea , and the ear heareth it poured out . 3. it is in due quantity , and not an undiscernable atome . 4. it is near the sense , and neither by too much distance or nearness made insensible . 5. it hath a due abode , and is not made insensible by hasty passing by . 6. the air , and light , and all necessary media of perception are present . so that there is nothing wanting to the sensibility of the object . p. and how do you prove all or any of these ? for ought you know , the media may be undue , the magnitude , site , distance , abode , may not be what they seem to be ; and so you prove not what you say . r. all that i am now saying , is , that all men of sound sense , in the world have these immediate clear perceptions : the intellect by sense perceiveth the object as quantitative , as near , &c. this you dare not deny : so that if this perception be false , and here be no bread and wine , then sense or the intellect discerning by the means of sense , is deceived . p. i say that the senses or intellects perception are deceived . r. i prove that they are not deceived ; or at least , that this kind of perception is the most certain that man on earth is capable of , and is to be trusted to by all men , and disbelieved or contradicted by none . reason i. because that humane nature is so formed , that the intellect hath no other way of perceiving things sensible , but as they are first perceived by the sense , and by it transmitted to the intellect ( or made its objects ) : and if about spirits it hold not , that there is nothing in the intellect , which was not first in the sense : yet about things sensible , it doth undenyably hold : and also that the intellect of it self is not free to perceive things sensible otherwise than as they are sensed , or not to perceive them ; but is naturally necessitated to perceive them . so that it is a contradiction for a man to be a man , consisting of a reasonable soul , with sensitive faculties and a body , and yet not to be formed to judge of things sensible as sense perceiveth them . p. then mad men cease to be men , if they judge otherwise . r. mad men are your fittest presidents : but , 1. i told you how mans nature is made by god to judge of things : i told you not that this nature may not be vitiated , and hindered from right action . did i ever say , that the eye may not be blinded , or the understanding distracted ? blind men and mad men judge not according to the tendency of nature , and therefore mis-judge . the connexion of the intellect to the sense is essential to man as man ; but so is not the soundness or right exercise of his faculties . reason ii. hence i argue , that sensation and the understandings perception thereby , is the first perception of mans soul , and all that follow are but the rational improvements of it , and therefore ever presuppose it : the natural order of the souls apprehensions is this , beyond all controversie . first sense perceiveth things sensible , and the imagination the images of them . next the vnderstanding by a simple perception conceiveth of them as it findeth them in the imagination . thirdly , then by this thinking or knowing , we perceive also our own act , that we do so think or know. and then fourthly , we compound our conceptions , and form organical notions , and spin out conclusions from what we first perceive . now if the first perceptions be uncertain or false , it must needs follow , that all those following thoughts , and reasonings which do but improve them , are at least as uncertain and false , if not more . so that there can be no more certainty in any of the conclusions as such , than there is in the premises and principles . therefore if mans first and most natural necessary perceptions are false , all the following actions or reasonings of his mind must be no better . all being finally resolved into these perceptions by sense , there is no truth or certainty in mans mind at all , if there be none in these . reason iii. else you would infer , that god is not at all to be believed , and that there is no such thing as divine faith and religion in certainty in the world : and so you would bring in , by unavoidable consequence , far worse impiety , and irreligiousness than mahomet or julian , or any idolaters that i hear of on the earth . for you directly will overthrow the divine veracity , or truth of gods revelations , which is the formal object of faith , without which , it is no faith. p. a heavy charge , if you can make it good . r. to make it good , do but first observe , 1. that gods essential will or mind is not in it self immediately seen by man ; but known only by some revelation . 2. that this revelation is nothing but some signes : for there is nothing in the universe of beings , but god and creatures and the acts or works of creatures . now it is not gods own essence which is the revelation in question . therefore it must be either a creature ( or work of god ) , or an act or work of a creature . as the voice on mount sinai , and that of christ at his baptism and transfiguration , and the written tables of stone , &c. were either the works of god immediately , and so created signs of his mind ; or else the acts of angels , and so imperate signs of his mind . nor it is not the ordinariness or extraordinariness of the way of making these signs , which maketh them currant and true , or credible : for if god can make a natural false sign , he can make a supernatural false one , for ought any mortal man can prove . only all the question is , whether it be indeed a sign of the mind and will of god or not ? now the works of nature are gods natural signs , and his natural objective light and law ; as the perception of them is the subjective or active light and law of nature : something of god , these natural signs do signifie or reveal plainly , and some things darkly : and so it is with supernatural signs ; as the written tables , the voice of an angel , the words of an inspired prophet or apostle , &c. now there is no other way for god to speak or reveal falsly , could he do it , but 1. either to make a false sign , naturally or supernaturally , or 2. to determine mans sense or mind to a false perception . and if god can do this naturally , why not supernaturally ? nay , à fortiore mark how you teach the infidel to inferr ? 1. gods natural revelations are common , and his supernatural rare . 2. gods natural revelations are most certainly his own acts : but how far a voice or book from a spirit , may be the act of that spirit or angel as a free agent , and how far that agent is fallible or defectible , we could not tell , if we had not farther evidence of gods owning it . therefore if you make gods own ordinary natural revelations or significations to be false , how will you be able to disprove the infidel about the rest ? 3. and then note , that our case is yet lower and plainer than all this : for if the very being of the creatures , which is the matter of these signs be uncertain to us , and all our senses and minds deceived about it , then we have no place for enquiry , whether this creature be any sign of the mind of god. as if the hearing of all men was deceived , that thought they heard that voice , [ this is my beloved son ] or pauls , that thought he heard christ speak to him [ saul , saul , &c. ] or if their eyes and intellects were deceived , that thought they saw christ and his miracles ; or that think now that they read the bible , and indeed there be no such thing as a bible , no such words , &c. then there is no room to enquire what they signifie : for nothing hath no signification . truth and goodness are affections or modes of being : and if we cannot by all our sound senses know the being of things , we can much less know that they are true or good. therefore all knowledge , and all faith , and all religion is overthrown by your denyal of the truth of our senses and intellects perception of things sensible . reason iv. and by this means you are not capable of being disputed with , nor any controversie between you and any others in the world , of being decided , while you deny sense . for then you agree not with mankind in any one common principle . and they that agree in nothing , can dispute of nothing . for this is the first principle : est vel non est is first to be agreed on , before we can dispute any farther of a substance . what will you do to confute an adversary , but drive him to deny a certain principle ? and can you drive him to deny a lower fundamental principle , than the being of a substance perceived by sense , yea , by all the sound senses of all men in the world ? reason v. yea , it is specially to be noted , that our difference is not only about the species of a sensible substance , but about the very substance it self in genere , whether all our senses perceive any substance at all , or not . suppose the question were , whether it be water or not , which all mens senses see in rivers ? if a papist would deny it to be water , doubtless he denyed the agreeing judgement of all mens intellect by sense . but if he should also say , it is no substance , which we call water or earth , this were to deny the first principle , and most fundamental perception in nature . now that this is your case , is undenyable . for , 1. you profess , that christs body and blood are not sensible there ; that it is not the quantity , shape , number , colour , smell , weight , &c. of christs body and blood which we perceive , and that these accidents are not the accidents of christ . 2. and you believe that the bread and wine is gone , that is , changed into the body and blood of christ ; so that no part of their substance , matter or form is left . and you put no third substance under these accidents in the stead . so that you maintain , that it is the quantity of nothing , the figure of nothing , the colour , the weight , the scituation , the smell , the number , &c. of nothing , which all mens intellects by sense perceive . so that the controversie is , whether it be any substance at all which by those accidents we perceive ? and when we see , handle , taste , smell it , you believe ( or say you believe ) that it is none ; neither bread or wine , or any other : now if by sense we cannot be sure of the very being of a substance , we can be sure of nothing in the world . reason vi. yea , it is to be noted , that though brutes have no intellects , yet their sense and imagination herein wholly agreeth with the common perception of man : a dog or a mouse will eat the bread as common bread , and a swine will drink the wine as common wine : and therefore have the same perception of it as of common bread and wine ; and so their senses must be all deceived as well as mans . and brutes have as accurate perfect senses as men have , and some much more . and meer natural operations are more certain and constant ( as we see by the worlds experience ) than meer reason and argumentation . birds and beasts are constant in their perceptions and course of action , being not left to the power of mutable free-will . reason vii . you hereby quite overthrow your own foundation , which is fetcht from the concord of all your party , which you call all the church : you think that a general council could not agree to any thing a● an article of faith if it were not such ; ( when it is bu● the major vote that agree ) ; you say that traditio● is infallible , because all the church agreeth in i● ( when it is perhaps but your sect , which is a mino● part ) . but do you not overthrow all this , when yo● profess , that all the senses of all the sound men in th● world , and all the simple perceptions of their intellect● by sense , do agree , that there is substance , yea , d● specie bread and wine after the consecration ? no on● mans perception by sense disagreed in this , from th● institution of the sacrament to this day , that can be proved , or the least probability of it given . and i● this concord be no proof , much less is yours : for ▪ 1. the intellect in reasoning is more fallible than i● its immediate perception of things sensed ( or perceived by sense ) . 2. yours is but the consent of some men ; but ours is the consent of all mankind . yours among your selves hath oft in councils a minor part of dissenters , who must be overvoted by the rest : but our case hath never one dissenting sense or perception . reason viii . by this denyal of sense , you overthrow the foundations of humane converse : how can men make any sure contracts , or perform any duty on a sure ground , if the concordant senses of all the world be false ? parents cannot be sure which are their own children ; nor children which are their own parents : husbands cannot certainly know their own wives from their neighbours . no subjects can certainly know their own prince . no man can be sure , whether he buy or sell , receive money or pay it , &c. no man can be sure that there is a pope , or priest , or man in the world . reason ix . you seem to me to blaspheme god , and to make him the greatest deceiver of mankind , even in his holy worship : whereas god cannot lye ; it is impossible : and the devil is the father of lyes : and you make god to tell all the world ( as plainly as if words told them ) even by demonstration to their sight , smell , feeling , taste , that , here is bread and wine , when there is none ; yea , that it is at least some substance which they perceive , when it is none at all . reason x. you thus fain god to be cruel to mankind , and that under pretence of grace ; even to put such hard conditions of salvation on man , which seem to us impossible , to any but mad men , or those who by faction have cast their minds into a dream . if these be gods conditions , that no man shall be saved , that doth not believe that all his senses , and all the senses of all the world , are deceived when they perceive bread and wine , or substance , many may take on them to believe it , but few will believe it , and be saved indeed . reason xi . hereby you make the gospel or new covenant to be far harder and more rigorous than either the law of moses , or the law of innocency : for neither of these did damn men for believing the agreeing senses of all mankind : perfect obedience , to a perfect nature , was fit to be a delight . the burdensome ceremonies had no such impossibilities in them . none of them obliged men to renounce all their senses , and to come to heaven by so hard a way . reason xii . you seem to me to contradict gods law and terms of life , and to forge the clean contrary as his : he saith , he that cometh to god must believe that god is , &c. and he that believeth shall be saved , and he that believeth not shall be damned : but you seem to me to say in plain effect , [ he that believeth gods natural revelations to all mens senses shall be damned , and that believeth that the said revelations are false , may be saved , caeteris paribus . ] reas . xiii . and what a thing by this do you mak● gods grace to be ? whereas true grace is the repaire● and perfecter of nature , you make it to be the destroye● and deceiver of nature . the use of grace according to your faith is to cause men to believe that gods natural revelations are false , and that all the senses of th● world in this matter are deceived : whereas a mad ma● can believe this without grace . reas . xiv . by this doctrine you abominably corrupt the church with hypocrisie , while all that will hav● communion with you , must be forced to profess tha● all mens senses are thus deceived : and can you thin● that really they can all believe it ? or rather you● church must be mostly made up of gross hypocrites who falsly take on them to believe it when they do not . reas . xv. and by this means you make the vnity of the church to become a meer impossibility : for you● condition of union is , that men all believe this among other articles of your faith : and that man hath lost o● vitiated his humanity who can believe and expect , tha● all christians in the world should ever believe that al● the senses of all the world are thus deceived . you might as well say , the church shall never have unity till all christians do believe that david or christ was a worm and no man , a door , a vine , a thief , a rock , in proper sense ; or we shall have no unity till we renounce both our humanity and animality and the light and law of god in nature . and after this to cry up vnity , and cry down schism , what abominable hypocrisie is it ? reas . xvi . and by this doctrine what bloody inhumanity is become the brand or character of your church ? when you decree concil . later . sub . innoc. 3. can. 3. that all that will not thus renounce their senses , and give the lie to gods natural revelations , shall be excommunicated and utterly undone in this world , even banished from all that they have , and from the land of their nativity ; yea your inquisition must torture and burn them , and your writ de hereticis comburendis must be issued out against them , to fry them to death in flames , if they will not renounce the common senses of mankind . reas . xvii . and it even amazeth me to think what horrid tyrants you would thus make all christian princes ! when the said canon determineth that they shall be first excommunicate and then cast out of their dominions , which shall be given to others , and their subjects absolved from their allegiance and fidelity , except they will exterminate all these as hereticks from their dominions , who will not give the lye to all mens senses and to gods natural revelations . the plain english is , ☞ he shall not be the lord of his own dominions who will have men to be his subjects , or such as will not renounce both their humanity and animality or sense . for to perceive substances in genere & in specie by sense , and to believe or trust the common senses of all the world about things sensible , as being the surest way that we have of perception , is as necessary to a man as ratiocination is . choose then o ye princes of the earth , whether you will be papists , and whether you will have no men to be your subjects , even none that believe the senses of themselves and all the world . reas . xviii . thus also your idolatry exceedeth in absurdity the idolatry of all the heathens else in the world : even canibals and the most barbarous nations upon earth . for if they call men to worship an image , the sun , the moon , an ox or an onion ( of which the egyptians are accused ) they do but say that some spiritual or celestial numen affixeth his operative presence to this creature : but they never make men swear that there is no image , or sun or moon or ox or onion left , but that the whole substance of it is turned into god , or somewhat else . your absurdities tend to make the grossest idolatry seem comparatively to yours , a very fair and tolerable errour . reas . xix . by these means you expose christianity to the scorn of humane nature , and all the world . you teach heathens , mahometans and other infidels to deride christ as we do mahomet ; and to say that a christian maketh and eateth his god , and his faith is a believing that gods supernatural revelations are a lie , and that god is like the devil the great deceiver of the world . wo be to the world because of offences , and wo be to him by whom offence cometh . reas . xx. lastly by this means you are the grand pernicious hinderers of the conversion of the heathen and infidel world : for you do as it were proclaim to them ; [ never turn christians till you will believe that gods natural revelations are false , and that all mens senses in the world are deceived , in judging that there is bread , wine , or sensible substance after the words of consecration . ] these are the mischievous consequents of your doctrine . but one benefit i confess doth come by occasion of it ; that it is easier hereby to believe that there are devils , when we see how they can deceive men : and to believe the evil of sin , when we see how it maketh men mad ; and to believe that there is a hell , when we see such a hell already on earth , as learned pompous clergie men , that have studied to attain this malignant madness to decree to fry men in the flames and damn them to hell , and give them no peace or quietness in the world , unless they will say , that gods natural revelations are false , and that all mens senses are herein deceived , by god as the great deceiver of the world. chap. ii. the papists answers to all this confuted . p. it is easie to make any cause seem odious , till the accusations are answered , which i shall confidently do in the present case . i. all this is but argument from sense : and sense must vail to faith : gods word must be believed before our senses . r. it is easie to cheat fools and children into a dream , with a sound of empty words : to talk of senses vailing to faith and such like canting , and insignificant words , may serve turn with that sort of men . but sober men will tell you that sense is in exercise in order of nature at least before reason or faith , and that we are men and animals before we are christians : and that the truth and certainty of faith , presupposeth the truth and certainty of sense . tell me else , if sense be false , how you know that there is a man , or pope , or priest in the world ? that there is a book or voice , or any being ? and what possibility then have you of believing ? p. gods revelation is surer than our senses ? r. this is the old song over and over . revelation without sense ( to you and ordinary christians at least ) is a contradiction . how know you that god hath any revelations ? if by preachers words , how know you that there is a preacher , or a word but by sense ? if by books , how know you that there is a book , but by sense ? p. ii. we may trust sense in all other things , where god doth not contradict it : but not in this one case , because god forbiddeth us . r. say so of your church too , your pope , council or traditions ; that we may trust them in all cases save one or two , in which it is certain that they do lye ! and will not any man conclude , that he that can lye in one case , can lye in more ? if one text of gods word were false , and you would say , you may believe all the rest save that , how will you ever prove it ? for the formal object of faith is gone , which is the divine veracity ; he that can lye once , can lye twice . so if all our senses be false in this instance , how shall we know that they are ever true ? p. you may know it because god saith it . r. 1. where doth god say it ? 2. how shall i be sure that he saith it ? if you say , that it is written in scripture ; besides that there is no such word ; how shall i know that all mens senses are not deceived in thinking that there is a scripture , or such a word in it ? if you say that the council saith it , how shall i know that there is a man or ever was a council , or a book in the world ? the certainty of conclusions presupposeth the certainty of premises and principles : and the certainty of faith and reasoning , presupposeth the certainty of sense : and if you deny this , you deny all , and in vain plead for the rest . p. i must believe my senses , where i have no reason to disbelieve them . but when god contradicteth them , i have reason to disbelieve them . r. 1. you vainly suppose without proof that god contradicteth them . so you may say , i may or must believe the scripture or an apostle , prophet or miracle , except god contradict them . but if god contradict them , he contradicteth his own word or revelation : for we have no other from him , but by man : and if he contradict himself , or his own word , how can i believe him , or know which of his words it is that 's true , when one is false ? so here : his natural revelation is his first , nearest , and most satisfactory revelation : and if that be said to be false by his supernatural revelation , which shall i believe , and why ? p. iii. you cannot deny but god can deceive our senses . and therefore if he can , will you conclude against all faith if once he do it ? r. 1. this is not once ; but as oft as god is worshiped in your mass and our sacrament . 2. god can deceive us without a lie , but not by a lie. christ deceived the two disciples , luke 24. by carrying it as if he would have gone further ; but not by saying that he would go further . god can do that from which he knoweth that man will take occasion of deceit . god can blind a mans eyes , or destroy or corrupt his other senses ; he can present an object defectively , with unmeet mediums , distance , site , &c. in this case he doth not give us a false sign ; nor doth he by the nature of the revelation oblige any man to believe it : yea nature saith , that a man is not to judge by a vitiated sense , or an unmeet medium , or a too distant object , or where the due qualification of the sense or object are wanting : nature there tells us that we are there to suppose or suspect that we are uncapable of certainty : but nature obligeth us to believe sound senses about duly qualified objects ; and to take sense for sound when all the senses of all the men in the world agree ; and the object to be a duly qualified object of sense , when all mens senses in the world so perceive it . for we have no way but by sense to know what is an object of sense . 3. the question is not what god can do by his power , if he will ; but what god will do , and can will to do , in consistency with his perfection , and just and merciful government of the world. and god in making us men whose intellects are naturally to perceive things sensible by the means of the perception of sense , doth naturally oblige man and necessitate him also , to trust his senses in such perception . and in nature man hath no surer way of apprehension : therefore if you could prove that sense is ordinarily fallible , and gods revelations to it false , yet man were not only allowed but necessitated to use and trust it , as having no better surer way of apprehension : as among many knaves or lyars , i must most trust the honestest and most trusty , when i have no better to trust . if i am not sure that it is a sun or light that i see , yet i am sure that i must take my perception of it as a sun or light as it is ; for god hath given me no better . if i am not sure that my sight , feeling , taste , &c. are infallible ; yet i am sure that i am made of god to use them ; and that i have no better senses , nor a better way to be certain of their proper objects : so that i must take and trust them as they are , or cease to be a man. p. iv. christs body and blood are not sensible objects ; and therefore sense is no proper judge whether they be present . r. this is one of your gross kind of cheats , to change the question . we are not yet come to the question , whether christs body and blood be here ? and i grant you that sense is no judge of that , any more than whether an angel be here . but the question is now only , whether bread or wine or sensible substance be here ? and of this we have no natural way but by sense to judge . p. v. if god should say to you [ your senses are in this deceived ; here is no bread or wine or sensible substance ] would you not believe him ? r. 1. again i tell you , it is a supposition not to be put : as if you should say , [ if god should say , that part of the gospel or word of god is false , would you not believe him ? ] 2. if i know that god telleth me that some disease or false medium , &c. deceive me or another in particular , i will believe him : but here it is supposed , 1. that i have assurance that it is god that tells me so ; 2. and that i have no assurance that common sense saith the contrary . but if the sense of all the world about a well scituate object of sense agree , i will not take that to be gods word which contradicteth it , till i have some evidence which is better and stronger than the agreeing senses of all the world to prove it to be so . and what evidence must that be ? i assure you somewhat greater than the authority of a beastly ignorant murdering pope , and his factious council . p. vi. cartesius giveth you an instance of deception of sight : we think a square tower of a steeple to b● round till we come neer it : and the water seemeth to us to move when it is the boat . r. cartesius and you do seem to be confederate , to put out the eye of nature , and tempt the world to infidelity , if not to atheism . 1. nature tells us that a distan● steeple or other object , is not perfectly discernible and therefore nature forbiddeth us to judge till w● come neerer . we speak only of objects duly scituate an● qualified . 2. the failing of the sight there is but negative : it discerneth not the corners : but here yo● feign it to be positive . 3. as the errour is corrigibl● by nearer approach , so also by the use of other sense● ▪ if a man feel the tower that is square , he will infallibly perceive it . but if you could prove that this squar● tower is no tower , no stone , no substance at all , thoug● all the world should judge otherwise that see it at th● meetest distance , and feel it with their hands , then you did something to the purpose . so as to the moving water or banks , 1. motion is not so evident as substance . 2. though one sense , through the weakness of the brain be insufficient , the intellect by the same sense about other objects , and by other senses can infallibly discern what that one perceiveth not . 3. and if one mans eyes deceive him who is in the boat , ten thousand mens eyes that stand on the firm land , perceive the truth : but in our case it is all the senses of all the world , in all ages , about the neerest object , that agree . p. vii . substance is not the proper object of sense , but only accidents : we see , feel , taste , smell the accidents , but not the substances . r. 1. if you can name some notional speculator or word-maker that hath said so , you think you have authority to renounce humanity by it . call it proper or not-proper , substance is the certain object of sense as cloathed with its accidents . quantity and the res quanta are not two things , but one : and he that feeleth or seeth quantity , feeleth or seeth the rem quantam . he that seeth or feeleth shape or figure , seeth or feeleth the thing figured . he that smelleth odor , smel●eth rem odoratam ; he that seeth colour , seeth the rem coloratam . when to feel the superficies , you feel ●he substance . 2. by this we see how by words you will unman mankind . have you any way of perception of corporal substances but by sense ? do you know that there is any earth or water , or any corporal substance in the world , or not ? if you do , tell us how you know it but by the ●erception of sense presenting it to the intellect ? you know that you must thus know it , or not at all . 3. and thus still you would bring men with scepticism to infidelity . you would teach men , that they that saw christ were not sure that they saw him or any substance at all , but only the accidents , called quantity , shape , colour , &c. they that saw apostles , miracles , bibles , councils , were not sure that they saw any more than accidents , &c. p. viii . they that saw angels appearing to them like men , or the holy ghost descending on christ in the shape of a dove , thought they saw men and a dove : so moses rod did seem a serpent . but their senses did deceive them . r. their senses were not at all deceived : and if by rash judging they would go beyond sense , and wilfully deceive themselves , it was their fault . their sense saw the shape or likeness of a man and dove . the text saith , not that the holy ghost was a dove , but that it descended in the likeness of a dove : and their senses perceived no more . and this was true . a man consisteth of a soul and a body of flesh and blood : did sense perceive any of this in the angels ? either , soul , flesh or blood ? or any such thing in the appearance of a dove ? if i see your picture or statue , is my sense deceived if i take it not for a living man ? it i see it moved , is my sense deceived if i take it not for any other than a moving image ? nature doth not bind me to take every simile to be idem ; a corps for a man ; an image for the person . it will be foolishness so to take it . but if this angel , or dove , had come near to the senses , all the senses , of all sorts of men , and they had seen , and felt , and tasted , and smelt , all that are the objects of these senses , and yet there had been indeed no visible , tactible , sensible substance at all , this had been a deception of the senses remediless . christ i am sure appealed to sense , to prove that he had flesh and blood and was not a meer spirit . the same i say of moses rod : either it was really a serpent or not ; if it was , then it was no deception to judge it such : if not , sense was not at all deceived : for it perceived nothing but the similitude and motion , and those ( with the substance ) were certainly there . but if all mens senses , seeing , feeling , tasting , &c. had been deceived , and there had been indeed no shape of a serpent , nor any sensible substance at all but accidents real without any substance , this had been indeed a deception of the senses . and if god so subvert mans nature , he will not bind him to do the things which belong to the nature of man to do . but by all this we may perceive , that there is no end of controversies with you to be hoped for : for how is it possible to bring any thing to a more satisfying issue , than when the senses of all the world do as clearly perceive it , as any sensible thing can be perceived ? if our difference were whether this be paper , and these be letters ; or whether this be a pen , a table , yea or a substance , and i should appeal to the sense of all the world , and yet this will not serve to decide the controversie ; what end , or hope of ending can there be : i will sooner look for concord with a mad man , than with men that deny the senses of all the world. chap. iii. the second argument against transubstantiation : the contradictions of it . r. arg. 2. god owneth not contradictions ( nor can do ) . the papists doctrine of transubstantiation , or nullification of the whole substance of bread and wine , is contradictious : therefore it is not owned by god. the major i know no man that denyeth . the contradictions are these . i. you feign many accidents of no substance ; which is a gross contradiction . for to be an accident is essentially relative to a subject or substance : and ejus esse est inesse . to be a father without a son , or a son without a father , a husband without a wife , or a wife without a husband , &c. are contradictions : and so it is to be an accident of nothing , or without a subject . particularly , 1. the quantity of nothing is a contradiction : we can measure the bread , and wine : to be an inch in longitude , latitude or profundity , and yet to be no substance is a contradiction . to be ( as the wine is ) a quart , a gallon of nothing is a contradiction . 2. so for number ; we can number the wafers or pieces of bread , and the cups of wine : and to be twenty , forty , an hundred nothings , is a contradiction . 3. so for the weight , to be an ounce , a pound , or ten pound , of nothing , is a contradiction . 4. so for the figure or shape : it is a contradiction to be a round nothing , a square nothing , &c. 5. so is it to be a sweet nothing , a sharp nothing , an austere nothing , &c. as the wine is fancied by you . 6. or to be an odoriferous nothing : a rough or a smooth nothing , &c. 7. or to be a white nothing , or a red nothing , or any coloured nothing . the same i may say of site , and of a multitude of relations , &c. ii. it is a contradiction , for nothing to have all those real notable effects , which it is certain that the consecrated bread and wine have . as , 1. that when a man or a beast , is really nourished by the bread and wine , and flesh and blood , and spirits are made of it , ( as they may live by it many months , ) that these should be the effects of nothing , or made out of no substance by way of nutrition , without a proper creation . 2. when the consecrated bread and wine do partly turn to excrements , vrine , dung and spittle , that all the excrements are nothings or made of nothing without a new creation , is a contradiction . 3. when the wine shall ( as it may do ) make a man or a swine drunk , that he is made drunk by nothing or no substance , when as that drunkenness is essentially the operation of the spirits of the wine upon the spirits of him that drinks it , this also is a contradiction . and god maketh not contradictions true . p. it is the plea of an infidel to say that god cannot do this or that . will you limit the power of the almighty ? will you say that god cannot make quantity , quality , site , &c. without substance , because we cannot ? it is blasphemy to say god cannot . r. god can do all things that are works of power : god can do nothing which is a work of impotency , defectiveness , naughtiness , or folly , or which are contradictions in themselves . and when we say god cannot , we do but say either that god is perfect and almighty , or that the thing is nothing , but a false name , and not capable of being any ones work . god cannot lye , because he is perfect and almighty , and not because he wanteth power . god cannot make you to be a man and no man , a substance and no substance , in the same sence , at the same time : because it is a contradiction . but if this argument did not hold , and it were no contradiction , for god to overturn his setled course of nature , i shall shew you next that we have other reasons enough to judge that he doth it not . if he can make darkness to give light , and a clod to be to the world instead of the sun , without changing it , or a stone to understand and speak without changing it , yet that god doth none of this , both reason and experience prove . chap. iv. the third argument against transubstantiation : from the certain falshood of their assertion of multitudes of miracles in it . r. that doctrine which asserteth a multitude of false or feigned miracles is false and not of god : but such is the doctrine of transubstantiation — ergo — i will 1. shew you what miracles it asserteth ; and 2. prove that they are feigned or false . i. it is a miracle for bread and wine to be turned into no bread and wine , yea , into nothing ; and this by the speaking of four words . ii. it is a miracle ( or contradiction ) for the bread and wine to be turned into christs body and blood , and yet neither the matter nor form of it to become any of the matter of christs body and blood . iii. it is a miracle , ( or a contradiction rather as aforesaid ) for the accidents to be the accidents of nothing , or no substance ; to be the quantity of nothing , the shape , the number of nothing , the colour , savour , smell of nothing , and so of all the rest . iv. it is a miracle to have all the sound senses of all sorts of men in the world so deceived herein , as to perceive bread , wine and substance , if there be none . v. it is a miracle to have the senses of mice and rats , and dogs and other brutes also deceived when they eat and drink it . vi. it is a miracle ( or contradiction ) to have nothing without a creation , to become excrements : or else those excrements to be nothing also : and the accidents of all those excrements to be the accidents of nothing . vii . it is a miracle to be nourished by nothing : ( for you say , that it is not christs body and blood that nourisheth the flesh . ) to have flesh and blood made of nothing , is a creation . viii . it is a miracle to be drunk with nothing , when the wine is annihilated or gone , and seemeth to be it that causeth the effect : yea , for beast or man to be so drunk . ix . it is a miracle ( or contradiction ) for christ to eat his own body ( as the papists hold he did ) ; and yet it was his whole body which did eat his body , and yet he had but one body . x. it was a miracle ( or contradiction ) for christs entire body to be nourished by that eaten body , and that the eaten body turned into the substance of his eating body : and yet all was but one . xi . it was a miracle that christs eaten body being not dead but living with a humane soul , should be broken and eaten by him and his disciples , and yet feel no pain by it . xii . it was a miracle that his whole body was on the cross ; and yet part of it in the disciples bellies at that time ; or at least before that eaten by them . xiii . it was a miracle ( or contradiction ) that christs eaten body now nourisheth not the flesh of any man ; and yet did nourish the flesh of the disciples before his death . or if it did not nourish them , it was a miracle that what they eat and drank then did not nourish them , ( or christ what he eat and drank ) . xiv . it was a miracle that the whole body of christ should arise and live , and ascend to heaven , when the disciples had eaten it . xv. it is a miracle that every receiver eateth the whole body of christ , and not a part , and yet that he hath but one body ; or that they eat each a part without dividing him . xvi . it is a miracle that as soon as the species of bread and wine perish or cease in the eater , christs body and blood ceaseth to be in him , and this without his detriment . xvii . it is a miracle that there is such a local distance between the consecrated bread and wine all over the world ; and yet no such distance between the parts of christs body , and yet that bread to be his body . xviii . it is a miracle that bread and wine is annihilated or cease every mass , and yet that the quantity of corporeal matter in the whole world is no whit diminished : or else that those four words can so annihilate and diminish the matter of the world . xix . it is a miracle that christs body and blood increase not , when so many millions of parcells of bread and wine are turned into it . xx. it is a miracle that christs body and blood is not diminished , when by the corruption of the species of bread and wine , it vanisheth away . xxi . it is a miracle that christs body and blood should be so received into the bowels of a wicked man , and yet not be any way defiled by his sin , nor by his bodily uncleanness . xxii . it is a miracle that a baker dispositively , and a priest effectually can make his own god , and eat him when they have done . xxiii . it is a miracle that when worms are bred of that which was bread and wine , these worms are really generated of nothing , or created ; ( or if as some say , the bread and wine do substantially return again , and breed them , that is another , a double miracle . ) xxiv . and it is a miracle that the corporeal matter of the world should by these worms be daily increased , out of nothing , or out of meer accidents that have no substance . xxv . it is a miracle that men may be poysoned by the sacramental elements as ingredients in the mixture , and yet that they are no substance . xxvi . it is a miracle or contradiction , that when flesh and blood ( formally such ) enter not into the kingdom of god , but glorified bodies are all spiritual bodies ( though not spirits ) , and therefore not flesh and blood : yet christs body in the sacrament should be truly and properly flesh and blood , and yet the same with his glorified body ( which is not flesh and blood : ) which is the papists doctrine ; and the bread turned into such flesh . xxvii . it is a miracle that the same body which in heaven is brighter in glory than the sun , and exalted above angels , should yet shew no signs of glory on the altar , in the cup , in the hand , mouth or belly of him that taketh it ; but all its glory be so hid . xxviii . it is a miracle ( or contradiction ) that christs humiliation should be past , and his whole body glorified , and yet that to be torn with the teeth of a wicked man , to be eaten by mice , rats or dogs , to go into the filthy guts , to be trodden in the dirt , should be neither painful , nor any diminution of the glory of that same body . indeed his body on the cross might be broken , and his blood spilt and trodden on , because he was a sacrifice for sin ; and it was the time of his voluntary humiliation : but now for the suffering of death he is crowned with glory and honour , heb. 2.9 , 7. xxix . it is a miracle that the living body of our glorified redeemer should give no evidence or sign of life ; neither stir , nor speak , nor have breath , pulse , warmth , or other property of life appearing . xxx . it is a miracle , at least , that flesh should have none of the common notes or properties of flesh , not to be made of food , of blood and chyme , not to consist of the fibrae which flesh consisteth of ; not to have the colour , taste , odour or other such accidents of flesh : and that blood should have none of these notifying accidents of blood . xxxi . it is a miracle or contradiction , that christs flesh was broken before it was broken , sacrificed before it was sacrificed , i mean really broken and sacrificed at his supper , when yet he was whole and not really sacrificed till he was nailed to the cross . and so that his blood was really and properly shed in his supper , and yet no skin broken , nor his blood really shed till his side was pierced on the cross . and that he that was but once offered and sacrificed , should yet be offered and sacrificed once on one day , and another time on another day . here are one and thirty miracles or contradictions : let us hear some of the aggravations of them , as worthy to be considered . i. it is a miracle of these miracles , that there should be as many miracle workers as priests in the world : how many thousand are they in france alone ? and so in many other countreys . whereas in christs own time , they were comparatively but few . ii. that the pope or any prelate can make a miracle worker when he please , yea , a thousand ; as if the holy ghost were at his will. iii. it is a miracle of these miracles that a simonist who buyeth the priesthood with money , doth buy the holy ghost to work miracles for that money , which simon magus was condemned for thinking possible . for the papists hold , that the consecration of a simoniacal priest transubstantiateth . iv. it is a miracle that all this power of miracles should be given to flagitious wicked men ; adulterers , murderers , drunkards , &c. v. it is a miracle that all these men can work miracles at their own will and pleasure , at any hour : whereas the apostles had not the spirit at command , and could not do it when they would . vi. it is a miracle that miracles should be as common as masses , or the eucharistical worshipping of god ; not only on every lords day in all church-assemblies , but any day or hour else in the week . and so miracles be as ordinary almost as to eat and drink . vii . it is a miracle that every wicked priest should do so many miracles in one , and so many more in number than christ himself did , in the same proportion of time , as far as the history of the gospel telleth us : christ is quite exceeded by them all . viii . it is a miracle that every wicked priest can work all these miracles so easily , as with the careless saying over four words : when the apostles could not cast out some devils , or work some miracles , and some could not be done but by fasting and prayer . ix . it is a miracle that every priest can work all these miracles upon an unbeliever or a wicked man : for to such they say , it is the real flesh and blood of christ , and no bread or wine ; and the senses of all these wicked men are deceived . whereas christ himself could not do any great miraculous work among some where he came , because of their unbelief . x. it is a miracle that god and the priest should do these foresaid miracles on mice and rats and other beasts , by deceiving their senses , which we find not that christ ever did : or that god should feed them with the miraculous accidents aforesaid . xi . it is a miracle of these miracles that the priest can thus easily work miracles not only on other creatures , but on the glorified body of christ himself , ( by the foresaid changes , &c. ) xii . it is a miracle , that when christ wrought his miracles usually before a far smaller number , these priests work miracles thus before or on the senses of all the men in the world that will be present at the mass ; for all their senses are deceived . xiii . it is a miracle that the abassines , armenians , greeks , protestants , yea , any that they call schismaticks , and hereticks , who do not intend to work any miracle , nor believe transubstantiation , do yet work miracles in each sacramental administration of the eucharist , not only without their knowledge , but contrary to their belief , and against their wills : for they say , that even such mens consecration is effectual . xiv . either their priests consecration worketh all these miracles , when they intend it not , ( as if they speak the words in jeast or scorn , or in infidelity , ) or only when they intend it . if the first be said , it is a miracle of miracles , that any priest can work so many and great miracles by a jeast or scorn — if not , then all the business is come to nothing , and no one but the priest knoweth whether there be any such miracle at all , and whether ever he eat the flesh of christ : and so it will be in the power of the priest to deceive and damn all the people , according to the papists exposition of christs words , joh. 6. except ye eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood , you have no life in you . xv. either a malicious intention to a wrong end will be effectual in consecration , or not . if not , none but the priest knoweth that there is any body and blood of christ , or that ever he received any : because none knoweth though the priest intend consecration , whether he intend it to a right end . but if a wicked end will serve ( as i think most of them hold ) the miracle may be great and sad . for any roguish drunken malicious priest may undo a baker or vintner at his pleasure , and by four words deprive him of all his bread and wine : yea , he might nullifie all the bread and wine in the city , and so either make a famine at his pleasure , or else make whole families and cities live still and be nourished without any substance by bare accidents , which would be a miracle indeed . if the priest can by consecration change only a convenient quantity of bread and wine , then all that is overmuch is bread and wine after consecration . if otherwise , why may he not change all the bread and wine in the shop or cellar where he cometh , intending consecration to an ill end ? if he can do it only on the altar , then want of an altar would frustrate the effect ( which they hold not ) . but if he can do it without an altar he may do it in the shop and cellar . if he can do it only on the bread and wine present , how near must it be ? then the words will work at so many yards distance , and not at so many . or if he cannot do it out of sight , a blind priest cannot do it . but if he can do it on that which is absent , we may fear lest in an anger he may take away all the bread and wine in the land ; at least in a frolick to try his power . xvi . and it is some aggravaion of these manifold miracles that a degraded priest can do them : because they follow the indelible character : and so he that hath once made a miracle-worker , cannot take away his power again , nor his sin lose his power . is not this a marvellous power of miracles , which becometh like a nature to them , as the power of speaking is ? xvii . yet is this miracle-working-power more miraculous , in that a mans own unwillingness , or repentance of his calling cannot hinder the miracle if he do but speak four words . consent it self is not necessary to it : let a man repent that ever he was a priest , and profess that he continueth in that calling against his will , yea , let him write as i now do against transubstantiation , yet all this will not hinder his next consecration from working all the foresaid miracles . xviii . it is miraculous that if you keep a consecrated wafer never so long , if you use it never so coursly , if you ( as he did who occasioned the conversion of mr. anthony egan a late irish priest ) pawn it at an ale-house for thirty shillings ; if you lay it down for a stake at cards or dice , &c. it will not cease to be christs flesh ( and so by his blood , ) nor ever becomes bread , or any other substance till it corrupt : and yet in a mans stomach it ceaseth to be christs body , as natural heat corrupteth it by concoction : and yet it is not christs flesh that is concocted . xix . it is a miracle of this miracle which aquinas and others assert , that the bread and wine are not annihilated , but wholly turned into christs body and blood ; and yet , as vasquez saith , it is not that the matter of bread begins to be under the form of christs body ( as durandus held . ) saith veron reg. fid . cap. 5. this transubstantiation is neither a change nor a production of any thing ; but it is a relation of order between the substance that doth desist to be , and that into which it doth desist . and yet saith the concil . trident. there is a change made of the whole substance into , &c. xx. lastly , it is a miracle that all these miracles should be done so as not to appear to the senses of any man living , either to convert unbelievers or confirm the faithful : so that millions of these miracles are seen and not seen ; the priest , and action , and accidents are seen , but no miracle seen by any . so that aquinas concludeth 3. q. 76. a. 7 , [ though christ be existent in this sacrament per modum substantiae , yet neither bodily eyes , nor our intellects can see him , but by faith : no nor the intellect of an angel can see him secundum sua naturalia ; nor do devils see him but by faith ; nor the blessed , but in the divine essence . ] all these make these miracles far more miraculous than the raising of lazarus from the dead . whether all these are miracles , or most or many of them contradictions , and therefore impossibilities , i make no great matter of at this time . i think it utterly needless to add any more to what is said in answer to such sayings as aquinas's ( 3. q. 75. & 76. ) and other schoolmen , that [ the senses are not deceived , because there are the accidents , and the intellect is by faith preserved from deception : that the remaining accidents are in quantitate dimensiva quasi in subjecto : that these accidents can change an extrinsick body , can be corrupted , can generate worms , can nourish , can be broken , &c. ] for all this at least confesseth , that its all done by miracle : ( though i will say , 1. that they could scarce have chosen a more unhappy pro-subject of accidents than quantity , nor have given more unhappy reasons for it than aquinas doth q. 77. a. 2. c. 1. because the sense perceiveth that it is aliquid quantum , that is coloured . 2. because quantity is the first disposition of matter , &c. for this includeth matter : and aliquid quantum is a word that giveth away his cause : and no accident is more the same with its subject than quantity , or moles extensiva . 2. and he will be long before he will make or prove mans nature to be such , as that his intellect can judge of substances by believing , as incomplex objects , before it have perceived them by sense and imagination . when we see , taste , smell , feel , hear them , the intellect will suddenly and necessarily have some species or perception of the thing , before it come logically to dispute from extrinsick media of testimony , what this thing is in a second notion . and our question is , whether the intellect in this first perception be deceived , or not ? if you discharge the intellect from perceiving substances presently , before it know them by second notions or argument , you will make man quite another thing , than every hour and action tells us he is : but what will not a man say , when he sets himself only to study what to say for the making good of his undertaken cause ? but my next work is to prove the falshood of these pretended miracles . chap. v. the minor proved , viz. that these miracles are false . that these are all but feigned miracles , i thus prove . i. because the holy scriptures do plainly deny such an ordinariness or commonness of the gift of miracles . 1 cor. 12.8 , 9 , 10 , 11. [ to one is given by the spirit the word of wisdom , to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit , to another faith by the same spirit , to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit , to another the working of miracles , &c. but all these worketh that one and the self same spirit ; dividing to every man severally as he will. 28 , 29. and god hath set some in the church , first apostles , secondarily prophets , thirdly teachers , after that miracles , then gifts of healing , helps , governments , diversities of tongues : are all apostles ? are all prophets ? are all teachers ? are all workers of miracles . ] here it is most expresly told us , that working miracles is a peculiar gift of some , and even in those times not common to all that were priests . but the papists make it common to every priest , though a common adulterer , drunkard , murderer or heretick ; no one priest in the world is without it . ii. though some few that were workers of iniquity might have some such gifts , matth. 7. yet that was so rare , that nature it self taught men to judge miracles to be signs of divine approbation : so that nicodemus thence argueth , joh. 3.2 . no man could do these miracles that thou dost except god be with him . and the man joh. 9.31 . god heareth not sinners , but if any man be a worshipper of god and doth his will , him he heareth . and the people , vers . 16. how can a man that is a sinner do such miracles ? and it was christs own proof that he was of god , and his gospel true ; and therefore to blaspheam his miracles , by ascribing them to the devil , was the unpardonable blasphemy of the holy ghost : and to deny miracles to be a sign of gods attestation is to subvert all christianity . act. 2.22 . jesus of nazareth a man approved of god among you by miracles , wonders and signs which god did by him in the midst of you — joh. 5.36 . the same works that i do bear witness of me that the father hath sent me . joh. 10.25 , 37 , 38. the works that i do in my fathers name , they bear witness of me — if i do not the works of my father , believe me not : but if i do , though ye believe not me , believe the works , that ye may know and believe that the father is in me , and i in him . joh. 14.11 . believe me for the very works sake . joh. 15.24 . if i had not done among them the works that no other man did , they had not had sin . this also was pauls proof of his apostleship , yea and of the truth of all the apostles doctrine : heb. 2.3 , 4. god also bearing them witness both with signs and wonders , and divers miracles , and gifts of the holy ghost , according to his own will. therefore that doctrine is unlike to be true , which tells us that every wicked priest in the world , though a simonist , or an enemy of christ and godliness , and drown'd in all vice , is such a constant miracle-worker : when god hateth all the workers of iniquity , psal . 5.5 . iii. but though this reason be but probable , this following is demonstrative to a believer . that doctrine which maketh every ignorant wicked or heretical priest in the world , far to excell the prophets , apostles , and christ himself , in the greatness , number and facility of miracles , is false : but such is this doctrine of transubstantiation — i know that christ telleth his apostles [ greater works than these shall ye do . ] but 1. there are greater works ( such as the converting of greater numbers in the world ) which are not greater miracles : 2. and what was promised ●o the apostles , as to miracles , was not promised to every priest in the world . i appeal to the consciences of sober christians , whether it sound not as an arrogant if not blaspheamous speech , to say that christ and his apostles did fewer and smaller miracles ( proportionable to their time ) than every priest . and as to the minor , it is soon proved in its parts . 1. as to the greatness of the miracles ; those of christ were exceeding great : especially his raising lazarus , and his own resurrection , his turning water into wine , and his feeding thousands with a little food — but he that will examine transubstantiation as afore-described , shall find it to have more that is contrary to nature , than all these , by far . the substance of the dead body of christ or lazarus did not vanish , but remained to be the organized recipient matter of the re-entring soul . there were no accidents without substances , or other such things as are mentioned before . the multiplying of food , could at the most be but a new creation ; but it was real food , and none of the contradictions or absurdities before recited . the turning of water into wine was likest this in the papists opinion ; but indeed little like it . for the matter of the water there remained , with the form of wine , and so became the matter of wine , and did not vanish : and here was real wine , and real substance , and not accidents without substances , deceiving all the senses or intellectual perceptions . the same may be said of the miracles of the apostles , compared with transubstantiation . 2. and as to the number , though christs and his apostles miracles were very many , yet there is no scripture-evidence that they were for number comparable ( for so much time ) to every priests . christs miracles are set down in the sacred history in such order , and the evangelists so much agree in reciting the same miracles , that ( though st. john say ) the world could not contain the books that should be written — yet we find no probability that they were neer so common as masses are : when in several places where christ came , they that looked after miracles and signs were denyed them , and had none , but were put off to the sign of the prophet jonah , &c. yea herod and pilate were in this denyed their desired satisfaction ; and they that call to him for a miracle on the cross . and so of the apostles . but every priest doth his miracles as oft as there is a mass , though every day . 3. and as to the facility i said before , that [ in his own country , among his own kindred , he could do no mighty work save that he layed his hands on a few sick folk and healed them , and he marvelled at their unbelief ] mark 6.4 , 5 , 6. and he some time groaned in spirit , and wept , ( as for lazarus ) . and the disciples could not cast out a devil , mar. 9.18 , 28. luk. 9.40 . it was not to be done but by fasting and prayer . it s like paul would have cured trophimus if he could , when he left him sick . and as holy men spake , not when , nor as they pleased , but when and as they were inspired by the holy ghost : so did they work miracles , not arbitrarily , but at such times and in such manner as the spirit moved them . but any the most wicked priest can do it at his pleasure , any hour of the day : and that but by reciting hoc est corpus meum . many other disparities appear in what is said before . iv. the end of the gift of miracles confuteth the feigned miracles of transubstantiation . the end of christs gift was to prove him to be of god ( as is aforeshewed ) and to prove his apostles to be of god , and to confirm the gospel which they preached , mar. 16.17 , 18 , 19 , 20. heb. 2.4 . as the gift of tongues so other wonders , were to convince unbelievers , 1 cor. 14. act. 2. & 4.30 . & 5.12 . & 7.36 . & 8.13 . & 14.3 . 2 cor. 12.12 . but the miracles of transubstantiation are known to no unbeliever ; nor to any one in the world by any sense ; and have no such end , but a contrary effect . the apostles who were to convert the world , and next christ , to do the greatest good , were therefore to do the greatest miracles : and it was their argument for christ , joh. 7.31 . when christ cometh will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done ? yet now every ignorant priest pretendeth to far more , who doth but tempt infidels to deride christianity by the pretence ; as we do mahometanism , for mahomets sport pretended with the moon , and other such delirations . v. god is not to be said to work miracles and cross the established course of nature without proof . but these pretended miracles have no proof — no man living perceiveth them by sense . and that god telleth us of no such things by supernatural revelation , shall be further shewed anon : in the mean time , it may satisfie us , that they bring us no proof , but their own affirmation , which they require us to believe . vi. the matter of these pretended miracles is expresly contradicted by the word of god , as shall be proved in the next chapter . vii . ad hominem ; do not the papists forget themselves here , and contradict their other suppositions ? 1. they make miracles to be one evidence of sanctity , and therefore canonize men , when they think that they have proof that they wrought miracles : and yet maintain that a whoremonger , drunkard or heretick may do many more . 2. they make miracles a proof that they are the true church , and say that among us there are no miracles ; and yet they confess that every priest , among us and all others , whom they account schismaticks and hereticks , do more miracles than christ did ; if they consecrate frequently . 3. they burn men to ashes for working miracles , even for making god ; if so be , they do it not in the roman fashion . 4. they confess that the other sacraments are not thus made up of miracles ; no not baptism , which is our christening , and washeth us from our sins : and yet this sacrament alone , must by a multitude of miracles differ from the rest . 4. whether the doctrine of their st. thomas and his followers and others , that the formal words of this sacrament have a created effective virtue by which they instrumentally make the change ( 3. q. 78. a. 4. c. ) be not an absurdity rather than a proper miracle . for words physically move but the air first , and the terminus of the aires motion ( e.g. the ear ) next : and next that , if it be an intellectual , or other animal recipient , the sense , and fantasie next , and so on : but the bread and wine have no sense nor fantasie nor intellect : and to say that the moved aire is the means of turning them into the body and blood of christ , is still to multiply miracles . 5. do they not too much magnifie the common work ( and consequently the office ) of a priest , above the work of a pope or prelate , who seldom consecrate ? when the priest worketh so many miracles more than they ? 6. they conclude that a sinner that hath voluntatem peccandi receiveth baptism in vain , as to its ends of pardoning him , and therefore should not receive it ( concil . rom. epist . gregor . 7. aquin. 3. q. 68. a. 4. c. &c. ) and yet , be the sinner never such an hypocrite or infidel , he eateth christs real flesh nevertheless , yea against his will , if he do but the outward act . 7. is it not strange that an infidel receiveth as verily the real flesh and blood of christ as a saint , and yet not the benefits or effects ? as if christs flesh and blood could be in a mans body without his benefit : when he hath promised that he that eateth him , shall live by him . yet see the measures of their faith and church : saith aquinas ( 3. q. 80. a. 3. ad 2. ) [ vnless perhaps an infidel intend to receive that which the church giveth , though he have not true faith about other articles or about this sacrament ] then he may receive sacramentally . chap. vi. the fourth argument . this miraculous transubstantiation is expresly contrary to the word of god , in scripture . arg. 4. the papists say that there is no bread after the words of consecration : gods word saith , there is bread after the consecration : therefore the papists speak contrary to the word of god. i. in 1 cor. 11. it is called expresly bread after consecration no less than three times in three verses together , 26 , 27 , 28. [ for as oft as ye eat this bread and drink this cup , ye shew the lords death till he come . wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the lord unworthily shall be guilty of the body and blood of the lord. but let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup ] : here they that call for express words of scripture for our doctrine , without our consequences , may see their own faith expresly contradicted , and our opposition justified : the holy ghost here expresly calleth it bread : and yet no expresness nor evidence will satisfie them . p. by bread is meant that which was bread before , or else that which nourisheth the soul as bread doth the body : and so it is metonymically only called bread , as christs flesh is called bread in joh. 6. r. why then do you call for express texts of scripture as our proof , when that expresness signifieth nothing with you ; but you can say , it is a metonymie or a metaphor at your pleasure . but you say so against notorious evidence : the apostle calleth it bread so often over and over , as if he had foreseen your inhumane heresie : he calleth it the bread which is to be eaten , joyned with drinking the cup ; never once calling either of them the flesh or blood of christ , but as he reciteth christs words which he expoundeth . yea he telleth us that eating this bread , and drinking this cup , is to shew the lords death till he come ; where he calleth us to look back at christs death as past , in our commemoration , and to look forward to his personal coming as future ; but never telleth us that we must kill christ and eat him our selves ( when we have made him ) , nor that his body is there present under the accidents of bread and wine . but the rest of the scriptures as expresly justifie our doctrine . 1 cor. 10.15 . the cup of blessing which we bless , is it not the communion ( or communication ) of the blood of christ : and the bread which we break , is it not the communion ( or participation ) of the body of christ ? ] here it is the cup and the bread after consecration , if the holy ghost may be believed . and in the next words the apostle repeateth it in his reason [ for we being many are one bread , and one body ▪ for we all partake of one bread ( or loaf ) . ] is not here express proof ? so act. 20.7 . when we came together to break bread — and v. 11. he ascending , and breaking bread , and eating &c. here it is twice more called bread after the consecration ( which ever went before the breaking ) . so act. 2.42 , 46. it is twice more called breaking of bread. and what else can the recitation of christs institution mean , 1 cor. 11.23 , 24. panem accepisse , fregisse ; to have taken bread , and having given thanks , to have broken ? what is it that he brake ? it s non-sence if it have no accusative case that it respects ? and plain grammatical construction tells us then , that it must be that before mentioned , what he took he blessed , and brake and gave : but he took bread and the cup — . the same is in mat. 26 , 26 , 27. and the other evangelists . ii. the scriptures expresly ( act. 2 , &c. ) make the killing of christ , and drawing his blood , to be the heynous sin of the jews , for which some repented and others were cast off : therefore it is not to be believed that christ did first kill or tear himself , and shed his own blood ; or that his disciples did kill him , or tear his flesh and shed his blood , before the jews did it . and if they tore his flesh and drank his blood , and yet killed him not , the event altered not the fact : the jews did but break his flesh and shed his blood . if you fly to a good intention , paul will come in for some further excuse for his persecution . iii. 1 cor. 10.21 . ye cannot drink the cup of the lord , and the cup of devils : ye cannot be partakers of the lords table and of the table of devils . — here note 1. that the same phrase is used of the participation of the lords mysteries and the devils . but it was not the flesh and blood or the substance of devils which the idolaters ever intended to partake of : but only their sacrifices . 2. it is here called only the table and the cup , and not the flesh and the blood . 3. it is said that they could not partake of both : whereas according to the papists doctrine , if a man should partake of the idols sacrifice in the morning , and of the lords table in the evening ( without repentance , ) he should really partake of christs own flesh and blood ; which the text saith cannot be done . p. it meaneth only , you cannot lawfully , or you ought not to partake of both , but not that it is impossible or never done . r. no doubt but it meaneth that they ought not , or cannot lawfully ; but that 's not all : the text plainly meaneth , you cannot have communion with both : you may take the bread and wine at your peril ; but you cannot partake of it as a sacramental feast which god prepareth you , and so partake of christ therein . and the same is said ( expounding this ) 2 cor. 6.15 . what concord hath christ with belial — and what agreement hath the temple of god with idols ? ] intimating that communion with god and idols , christ and belial , are ( so far ) inconsistent : but by the papists doctrine an idolater and son of belial may partake of the very substance of christs body and blood , into his body , as verily as he partaketh of his meat and drink . iv. the scripture teacheth us expresly to judge of sensible things by sense . luk. 24.39 . [ behold my hands and my feet , that it is i my self : handle me , and see ; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have . and when he had thus spoken , he shewed them his hands and his feet . ] and v. 43 , [ he did eat before them ] to confirm their faith . but they could have no more sensible evidence of any of this , than we have of the being of bread and wine , or some sensible substance after consecration . joh. 2.9 . they tasted the water turned into wine , and were convinced . p. but the body of christ here is not a sensible thing . r. but bread and wine are sensible things . p. but they are not there ; and so are no objects of sense . r. but all our senses say that they are there ; and by them we must judge . p. your senses perceive nothing but accidents : and your understanding must believe god , and so ( as you noted out of aquinas before ) there is no deceit either of sense or intellect . r. though this be answered fully before , i will again tell you , that these two notorious falshoods are all that you have to say against humanity in this case , that 's worth the noting . i. it is false that you say that sense perceiveth not substance : when i take up a staff or stone in my hand , i do not only feel roughness or smoothness , &c. but a substance : it is a quantitative , and qualitative substance , which i feel , taste , smell , see and hear : and this i perceive by sensation it self , as the medium to the intellect . it is not the sense indeed , but the intellect that giveth it the logical notion or definition of a substance ; but it is the sense it self that by sensation perceiveth it ; and to deny this is to deny all sense . and if it were not so , how could any such substance be known ? when it cannot come into the intellect but by the sense ? ii. ☞ your great cheat ( or errour ) is by confounding the first and natural-necessary perception of a sensibile sensatum or incomplex object , by the intellect , with the second conception of the names of things , or of organical second notions , and the third conception of them artificially by the use of these names and organical notions , and the fourth perception of consequents from those conceptions . to know by believing is but the third or fourth sort of knowledge , and presupposeth the two first . if a man had never heard a name or word in his life ; yet by sensation as soon as he saw , smelt , tasted , heard , handled things , his intellect would have had a perception of the thing it self as it was sensate ; and this is the intellects first perception : and this is it which falleth under our question , whether the intellect in this first perception of a substance or thing as sensate , be deceived or not , when the thing hath the conditions of an object before mentioned . 2. next this we learn or invent names and organical notions for things : and whether these be true or false , and whether they be apt or inept is all one . this is but an arbitrary work of art . 3. next this we conceive of things by the means of these names and second notions , and examine the congruence : and so we define them : and this is but a work of artificial reasoning , and presupposeth the first natural necessary perception . now faith belongeth partly to this , and partly to the fourth , which is the raising of conclusions , and the weaving of methods ; and presupposeth the first , yea and the second : it is but an assent given by the means of an extrinsick testimony of god , that this particular word is true , &c. now if the intellect in its first perception ( natural and necessary ) of the thing it self , as sensate , be deceived , if faith should be contrary to it , 1. it must be such a faith which is the immediate contrary perception of a sensate object ; which is no faith , nor is any such possible , ( properly called faith ) : 2. and if faith can come after and undeceive the intellect , by saying that god saith otherwise , yet this would be no prevention of its deception , but a cure , presupposing the said deception as the disease to be cured . so that to say as aquinas that faith preventeth the deceit of the intellect , is a falshood contrary to the nature of man , and his natural way of acting , as he is composed of soul and body . i have said this over again , lest errour get advantage by the brevity and unobservedness of that which i said before . chap. vii . argum. 5. all these miracles have not the least proof ; yea , the scriptures fully direct us to a cross interpretation of the papists pretended proofs ; which also are renounced by themselves . i know of no scripture proof in the world that the papists pretend to , but the words , this is my body , and this is my blood , and such like . and that these are no proof i shall fully prove to any impartial man. i. the very nature of the sacrament instituted by christ with his expressed end , command our reason to expound the word [ is ] of signification , representation or exhibition , and the word [ body ] and [ blood ] of a new relative form only , that is , of a body and blood representative , ( which is all one in effect ) : as a piece of gold , silver , or brass , is by the law and stamp turned really into the kings current coine ; and so hath a new relative form : so that you may truly say that there is a change made of the gold , or silver into the kings coyn : and it is no more to be called meer gold or silver ( though it be gold and silver still ) , because the form denominateth , and the new form is now that in question which must denominate . or as a prince that is marryed in effigie or by a representative to a woman , is not there personally ; and yet it is aptly said , this is the prince which is betrothed or marryed to thee . or as we say of pictures , this is peter , or paul , or john. or as when we deliver a man possession of a house by a key , or of land by a twig and a turf , or of a church by the belrope , &c. and say , take , this is such a house , or such a piece of land , or church , &c. as this is ordinary intelligible speech among all men , so christ tells them that he would be so understood . 1. in that his real natural body spake this , of the bread and wine which was not his natural body : his real natural body was present , visible , entire , unwounded , his blood unspilt , and did eat and drink ( the other , as the papists hold , as being the same ) : and can any living man imagine that the disciples who understood not his death , resurrection , ascension , &c. yet understood by these four words , when they saw christs body alive and present , that this bread and wine was that same body and blood , without any more questioning ? 2. in that he bids them , do this in remembrance of him ; which plainly speaketh a commemorating sign : who will say at his last farewell when he is parting with his friends , i will stay among you , or keep me among you , in remembrance of me ? so for christ to say , eat me in remembrance of me , were strange . ii. it may put all out of controversie to find , that christs words of one half of the sacrament are ( as they confess ) figurative ; therefore the other must be so judged also . luk. 22.20 . this cup is the new testament in my blood , which is shed for you : 1 cor. 11.25 . [ this cup is the new testament in my blood . ] and here no man denyeth a double trope at least : no man expoundeth it , that the cup or the wine was the new testament it self . and yet it is as expresly said , as it is that the bread is the body it self . how then will they prove that one is spoken properly , and the other figuratively ? iii. there is no more found in these words to assert the bread to be christs body , than is found in a multitude of such phrases in scripture asserting things which all men expound otherwise . as in joh. 15.1 . i am the vine and my father is the husbandman : joh. 10.7 , 9. i am the door — joh. 10.14 . i am the good shepherd and know my sheep : psal . 22.6 . i am a worm and no man ( which being a prophesie of christ , a heretick imitating you , might deny christs humanity : ) 1 cor. 10.4 . that rock was christ — 1 cor. 12.27 . ye are the body of christ — mat. 5.13 , 14. ye are the salt of the earth : ye are the lights of the world — joh. 6.63 . the words that i speak unto you they are spirit and they are life . abundance such are in the scripture , as all flesh is grass : christ is the lamb of god : the lyon of the tribe of juda ; the bright morning star ; the head corner stone , &c. and it is yet more fully satisfactory , that the hebrew constantly putteth [ is ] for [ signifieth ] as you may find in all the old testament ; having no other word so fit to express [ signifying ] by : and as christ spake after that manner , so the new testament ordinarily imitateth ; as daniel and the revelation agree in saying , of the visions , this is such or such a thing , instead of this signifieth it . so christ , matth. 13.21 , 22 , 23 , 37 , 38 , 39. he that soweth is the son of man : the field is the world : the good seed are the children of the kingdom ; the tares are the children of the wicked one : the enemy is the devil , the harvest is the end . the reapers are the angels — and thus ordinarily . iv. yea , the same kind of phrase used before in the passeover , teacheth us how to expound this : exod. 12.11 . ye shall eat it in haste , it is the lords passeover — vers . 27. it is the sacrifice of the lords passeover . v. yea the ordinary way and phrase of christs teaching may yet farther put us out of doubt . for he usually taught by parables , and expresseth his sense by such assertions : as matth. 13.3 . behold a sower went out to sow , &c. luk. 15.11 , 12. a certain man had two sons , and the younger said , &c. luk. 12.16 . the ground of a certain rich man , &c. luk. 16.19 . there was a certain rich man , &c. mat. 21.28 . a certain man had two sons , &c. vers . 33. there was a certain housholder which planted a vineyard , &c. the gospel aboundeth with such instances , which teach us how to interpret these words of christ . vi. but most certainly all those forementioned texts teach it us , which expresly call it bread after the consecration . if we will not believe the holy ghost himself , who so frequently calleth it bread , it is in vain to alledge any text of scripture in the controversie . now to feign a course of ordinary miracles , greater and more than christs , and this to every priest , how ignorant and impious soever ; to pretend that every pope and bishop can for money sell the holy ghost or the gift of miracles , in ordination ; and all this when no eye seeth the miracles , when it is confessed that angels cannot naturally see it , yea when all mens senses perceive the contrary ; and all this because , that christ said this is my body , while abundance such sayings in scripture , yea the words about the cup it self , are confessed to be tropical , and when the scripture expresly telleth us that there is bread. judge whether it be possible for satan to have put a greater scorn upon the christian faith , or a greater scandal before the enemies of it , or a greater hinderance to the worlds conversion , than to tell them , you must renounce not only your humanity but all common sense , if you will be christians , and be saved , or suffered to enjoy your estates and lives . vii . lastly , it is ordinary with their subtilest schoolmen to confess that this their doctrine of transubstantiation cannot be proved from scripture , and that they believe it only because their church saith it , which must be believed , and because that by the same spirit which wrote the scripture , the church is taught thus to expound it . so that all their faith of this is by them resolved into a phanatick pretence of inspiration ; as i have elsewhere shewed out of durandus , paludanus , scotus , ockam , quodl . 6. li. 5. q. 31. rada vol. 4. cont. 7. a. 1. pag. 164 , 165. and no general council ever determined it till that at rome under innoc. 3. where saith matth. paris , many decrees were proposed or brought in by the pope which some liked and some disliked . and this was 1215 years after christs birth . and stephanus aeduensis is the first in whom the name of transubstantiation is found , about the year 1100. chap. viii . arg. 6. from the nature of a sacrament . arg. 6. that doctrine which by consequence denyeth the lords supper to be a true sacrament , is false . the papists doctrine of transubstantiation by consequence denyeth the lords supper to be a true sacrament : therefore the papists doctrine of transubstantiation is false . the major i know no man that will deny that we have now to deal with . the minor needeth no other proof , than the common definition of a sacrament , and christs own description of this sacrament in the scripture . i. aquinas concludeth 3. q. 60. a. 1. that a sacrament is a sign ; and a. 2. that it is a sign of a thing sacred as it sanctifieth men ; and a. 3. that it is a rememorative sign of christs passion , a demonstrative sign of gods grace , and a prognosticating sign of future glory : and a. 4. that it must be res sensibilis a sensible thing , it being natural to man to come to the knowledge of things intelligible by things sensible , and the sacrament signifieth to man spiritual and intelligible goods : and a. 5. that they must be things of divine determination , &c. but , 1. if the bread and wine be gone , there is nothing left to be a sign , a real sensible sign , to lead us to the knowledge of spiritual and intelligible things . if they say that the species of bread and wine is the sensible sign , what mean they by that cheating word [ species ? ] not the specifying form or matter , but only the outward appearance . and is it a true or a false appearance ? if true , then there is bread and wine : if false , it is a false sign : and what is that false appearance which god maketh a sacrament of ? it is plainly nothing but the accidents of bread and wine without the substance . but , 1. when they take the cup from the laity , and deny them half the sacrament , sure there are then no accidents of wine . is there either quantity , colour , smell , taste , &c. of wine ? they will not say it . so that here is no sensible sign as to one half . 2. and herein they deal far more inhumanely with us than the infidels themselves : for when they plead against christ and scripture , they grant that the common principles and notitiae , which all mankind acknowledge , are the certain unquestionable light of nature . but the papists deny not only the notitias communes , but common sense . it is nothing with them to damn all the world , that will not believe contradictions . they say that the quantity of nothing endued with the qualities , the actions , the passion , the relations , the quando , ubi , situs of nothing , is the sacramental sign . inhumane contradiction ! 1. gassendus and others say truly , that an accident is not properly res , but modus rei , ( vel qualitas , as he calleth it . ) 2. quantity doth not really differ a re quanta : and to say , [ the length , breadth , profundity of nothing ] is a notorious contradiction . and so it is of the other accidents . there is no real sensible sign , and therefore no sacrament , where there is nothing , but the quantity , colour , taste , smell , &c. of nothing . 3. and they cannot , they dare not say , that christs real flesh and blood , is the sacramental sign : for , 1. it is not sensible ; 2. it should be then the sign of it self : the sign and the thing signified cannot be the same . ii. the very substantiality or corporeity of the bread and wine as such , is part of the sign : as christ saith , behold and handle me , a spirit hath not flesh and blood , as ye see me have : so he taketh corporeal bread and wine in their sight , and breaketh it , and poureth it out , and giveth it them to see , to feel , to taste , to eat , that they may know it is true bread and wine , the signs of his true body and blood. so that to deny the corporeity is to deny christs corporeity in its signs ; and tendeth to the old heresie of them that held that christ had but a phantastical body , or was not indeed crucified , but seemed so to be : they teach hereticks to argue , the sign was no real substance : therefore neither the thing signified . iii. the nutritive use of the bread and wine was another part of the sign , as all confess : as bread and wine are the nutriment of the body and life of man , so is christ crucified meritoriously , and christ glorified efficiently , the life of the soul . and he that denyeth the nutritive sign , denyeth the sacrament : but it is not the false appearance , or phantasm , or accidents of bread and wine , that are the natural nourishers of man : therefore he that denyeth the nourishing substance , denyeth the real sensible sacramental sign . saith bellarmin de euchar. l. 3. c. 23. [ in the eucharist we receive not corporal food that the flesh may be thence nourished and made fat : but only to signifie inward refection . ] so that he acknowledged this to be part of the sacramental sign . so gregor . valent. saith that [ the chief and essential signification of this sacrament is that which by external nourishment is signified , the internal spiritual refection of the soul by the body of christ . ] so that denying the nourishing sign is destroying the essence of the sacrament . iv. the breaking of the bread and pouring out the wine is confessedly another part of the sacramental sensible sign . but , 1. when there is no wine , there is no pouring it out : 2. and if there be no bread neither , there is no breaking it : can that be broken which is not ? they that deny ( as the papists do ) that the bread is broken ( saying that only the quantity of nothing is broken ) deny the sensible sacramental sign . and here i may note , that we do not well to contend with them for denying the cup only to the laity , and granting them only the bread , when indeed they grant neither , but deny them both : there is ( say they ) no more bread than wine , but only a false appearance of it . v. lastly , the apostle 1 cor. 10.16 , 17. sheweth that one sacramental use of the bread was to signifie the vnity of christians , who are one bread , and one body , as one loaf is made of many corns . but that cannot be one , which is nothing : ens , vnum & verum convertuntur . to say with greg. valent. and bellarmine , that because it was once bread , and one bread , therefore the accidents of it remaining now signifie that we are one bread ; is but to say , that there was once a fit sign , but then there wanted the form : now after consecration , there is no sacramental sign , but yet there is a sacramental form : and in what matter is that form ? doubtless it can be no where but in the brain or mind of man : that is , man can remember that once he saw bread : this is the species of bread in his intellect : this species is the sign : and so we have found out another sense of the species of bread , than many think on ; viz. it is that which is called the species intentionalis , or the idea or conception of bread in a mans fantasie and mind : and so indeed the sacrament is with them an invisible thing : for it is only in mens minds : there is no sacrament on the altar , but in the thoughts : and so who hath a sacrament , and who not , we know not : and a man may by thinking make a sacrament when he will. chap. ix . of the novelty of transubstantiation . r. i once thought to have next proved out of the current of antiquity , the novelty of this inhumane doctrine of the papists , and that the antients commonly confessed , that there was true bread and wine remaining in the sacrament after consecration : but , 1. i should but tempt and weary ordinary readers , who neither need any such arguments ( having sense and scripture to give them satisfaction ) nor are able to try them : for it is an indirect kind of dealing , to expect that the unlearned , or those that are strangers to the writings of the antients , should believe this or that to be their mind and sayings , meerly because i tell them so . and if they read the plainest words , they know not whether i rightly recite them , but by believing me . and it is as unreasonable on the other side , that the papists should expect , either by their citations or their general affirmations , that the readers should believe them , that the antients were for transubstantiation . till men can both read the authors themselves , and try the copies , they can have no sure historical notice what the father 's held , except by the common consent of credible reporters or historians : not while one side saith , they say this , and the other side saith they say the contrary , and yet their books are to be seen by all . we may bid them believe us , and the papists may bid them believe them , and a priest may cheat them by saying , that his word is the churches : but though this will produce a humane belief in the hearers or readers , as by advantages it is most taking with them , yet that fallible belief is all the certainty that it can afford them . therefore i think it most ingenuous and reasonable to give men such arguments as they are capable of understanding and improving to certain satisfaction . 2. because they that can study such authors as have gathered the sentences of the antients in this controversie , may find it so fully done by edmund . albertinus in his second book , that they can need no more . p. you know that albertinus is answered . r. and i know that he is again defended : and who doubteth but you can answer me copiously , if i did maintain that the sun giveth light : what is it that a man cannot talk for ? especially they that can hope to perswade all the christian world , that they must be damned , unless they will believe that all mens senses are deceived , and that god is the great deceiver of the world . p. but how can you think to please god and be saved , if you be not of the same faith as the church hath alwayes been of ? all the antient fathers and catholick church were for transubstantiation ; and are you wiser and in a safer way than they ? r. you have lost your credit with me so far , as that your word is no oracle to me : if i must not believe my own nor other mens senses , i am not bound to believe you : at least when i know you speak falsly . but i pray tell me , how know you that the church and fathers did so believe ? p. because the present church saith so ; which cannot err . r. do not your own writers say , that a general council and pope may err in matter of fact ? and that they did so in condemning pope honorius and in other cases ? p. yes : but this is a matter of faith . r. is it not a matter of fact , what this or that man said , and what doctrine the church at such a time did teach and hold ? but how know you that the present church doth say so , that this was the faith of the antient church ? p. by their testimony in a general council . r. did you hear the council say so ? p. no : but the church telleth me that the council said so . r. who is it that you now call the church which tells you so ? p. my superiours , who have it from the pope , and their fathers . r. are your superiours that told you so , the church ? or is the pope the church ? if so , what need you say a council is the church ? and how know you that the pope and your superiours err not in a matter of fact ? p. i know it by the decrees of the council yet extant . r. 1. but if sense be deceitful , how know you that you ever read such decrees ? 2. how know you that they are not forgeries , or since corrupted ? p. the church is a safe keeper of its , own records . r. still what mean you by the church ? the vulgar neither keep nor understand your councils . the council of trent is long ceased : no other general council hath been since , to tell you what are the true decrees of that council . the pope is not the church : and he may err in a matter of fact : what then is the church that tells you certainly what the council of trent decreed ? tell me if you can . p. we have such common historical evidence and tradition , as you have for your acts of parliament when the parliament is ended . the present governours preserve them . r. very good : it is the office of the governours to take that care , but therein they are not indefectible and infallible ; but they and the published laws , and the notice of the whole land , and the judicial proceedings by them in the courts of judicature make up a certain historical evidence . and so it may be in your case : and when you have talkt your utmost , you can shew no more . and have not we the same writings of fathers and councils as you have ? you dare not deny it . why then may not we know what is in them as well as you ? and i pray you tell me , whether your antiquaries , such as albaspinaeus , sixtus senensis , petavius , sirmondus , &c. do prove what cyprian , optatus , augustine , &c. held , by the judgement of the pope or councils , or by citing the words of the authors themselves ? and do crab , binnius , surius , caranza , &c. prove what one council said by the authority of another , or by the records themselves , yet visible to all ? p. those records themselves , even the visible writings of the fathers and councils are for transubstantiation . r. till you have perswaded me out of my senses , i will not believe you . i pray you tell me if you can of any author or council that ever used the name [ transubstantiation ] before stephanus aeduensis after the year 1100 , de sacram. altar . c. 13. p. though the name be new , the doctrine is not . r. tell me next , what general council did ever determine it , before the council of laterane under innoc . 3. an . 1215. p. not expresly : for general councils need not mention it , till the albigenses hereticks gave them occasion by denying it . r. was it an article of faith before ? if it were , either the councils are not the measure of your faith , or it is very mutable . p. among all your questionings answer me this question if you can . if that general council decreed transubstantiation , what could move them so to do , if it were not the faith of the church before ? were they not all of the same mind the day before they did it ? and so the day before that , and the day before that , &c. or do you think that they were against transubstantiation the night before , and awaked all of another mind the next morning ? what could make all the pastors of the church think that this was the true faith , if they did not think it was the antient faith ? and what could make them think it the antient faith , if it were not so ? did not they know what their fathers held ? and did not their fathers know what their fathers held ? the same i say of the council of trent also . r. thus men that must not believe the common sense of mankind , can believe the dreaming conjectures of their brains , and sit in a corner , and thence tell the world what can and what cannot be done by publick assemblies , at many hundred years and miles distance . who would not laugh at a fryer , that in his cell would tell by moral conjectures , all the thoughts and motions of an army or navy , that never saw them , and contrary to the experience of those that were on the ground and interessed in their councils and actions . observe how many false suppositions go to make up your cheats . 1. you suppose this a true general council , which is a pack of factious prelates subject to the pope , and assembled at rome in his own palace , under the awe of his presence and power . and as if the small number after at trent had spake the minds of all the churches . 2. you suppose all the members of a council to be of one mind : when as they determine by the major vote . and oft times the difference is not above two or three , and its possible one voice may turn the scales : and perhaps one , or two , or ten may be absent one day , and present another , and so the cry of [ the judgement of all the bishops in the world ] may signifie no more , but that two or three of the other side staid a little too long at dinner that day , while the other party carryed it by their absence . and i pray you where hath god promised , that the faith of an hundred and one shall not fail , when the faith of ninety nine of the same company may fail ( supposing the council to be two hundred ) : or why are the one hundred and one the bishops of all the world , and not the ninety nine ? 3. do you think we never read the history of the council of trent ? and before them , of the councils of ariminum , ephes . 2 , yea , calcedon , & c. ? and yet must we suppose , that men come thither all of one mind ? when they have such shameful contentions ? such cunning contrivances to get the majority of votes ? such awe and terror from the power of the chief ? and such carnal dependances and respects to their several worldly interests ? yea , sometimes fighting it out unto blood ( as dioscorus and flavianus case doth shamefully evince ? ) 4. and must we suppose mens minds to be changed in their sleep , when the awe or the oratory of other men change them ? do we not know the course of the parliaments of england of later times ? how much a few men of more than ordinary parts and interest , can do with the rest ? and how oft the major vote hath gone against the sense of the far greater number of the house ? 5. and do we not know , that ordinarily he that is sent to the council from a province , is chosen as it pleaseth the pope , the king , or the archbishop , or some in greatest power ; and rarely according to the free-will and sense of the greater part of the clergy . if five hundred to one of the clergy of a kingdom be of one mind , and the prince , or chief men , or powerfullest prelates be of another , they will send a bishop thither of their own mind . 6. do you think we know not that all the papists are not past the third or fourth part of the christian world ? why then should their sense be called the sense of all the christian world ? 7. do you think we know not how little reason you have to say , that the council at laterane spake the sense of all the church ? when the decrees were but proposed by pope innocent , and recited there without any due synodical deliberation , and some liked them , and some disliked them ? as you may find in math. paris in k. john , nauclerus gener. 41. ad an . 1215. godefridus ad an . 1215. platina in vita innoc. 3. and this one of your late false scriblers in a book for toleration also saith ; though the disputers against dr. gunning and dr. pierson copiously and confidently justifie that council : and indeed with you it passeth for an approved one . 8. and were not your arguing as strong for the council of ephes . 2. and that at arim. and sirmium , and divers at constantinople disallowed , and those at constance and basil , ( where were many times the number of the council at trent ) ? did these councils all go to bed of one mind , and rise of another ? or did they not know what their fathers faith was ? why then do you reprobate them , and deny that which they decreed as of faith ? is it not a shame , to talk of [ the bishops of all the world ] and [ tradition from their fathers ] when your meaning is but that all these may err , and do oft err , unless one man , the pope approve them ? but where sense is renounced , we must not expect modesty . p. but the antient councils and fathers are against you , as is to be seen . r. it is utterly false : i will not abuse the reader so as to carry him into a wood , and lose him among a multitude of old books , when he hath more satisfactory evidence enough at hand . but , i. as to all your citations from true antiquity ( for your forged authors and corrupted testimonies we regard not ) they are answered by this one true observation , that when old writers sometimes say , that after consecration it is [ no more bread and wine , but the body and blood of christ ] , their whole context plainly sheweth , that they mean that it is no more meer or common bread and wine ; and usually they so speak . because forma denominat , and it is the ultimate form that denominateth , all antecedent forms being but the dispositio materiae . as if the question be , whether a shilling be silver or money ? before the coining , it was but silver ; but after , it is no more common silver , but money : silver is but the matter , and not the denominating form . is your garment to be called cloth , or a cloak ? before the making it was but cloth , but now it is not meer cloth , but a cloak . the same i may say of the kings crown and scepter , or of any relative , representative or personating form that is added to any matter or man. this is the plain meaning of the antients . ii. and as to what they say against you , i will now only give you a few brief instances . 1. justin martyr . in dial. cum tryph. saith , [ the offering of flower delivered to be offered for them that were cleansed of the leprosie , was a type of the bread of the eucharist which our lord jesus christ commanded us to make in remembrance of his passion , &c. ] and more plainly apolog. 2. ( indeed the first ) [ when the president hath given thanks , and all the people acclaimed , those that with us are called deacons , distribute to every one present bread and wine and water , and bring them to those that are absent . ] 2. irenaeus saith lib. 4. c. 34. [ for as the bread which is of the earth receiving the divine invocation , is not now common bread , but the eucharist , consisting of two things , the terrene and the celestial , &c. ] see more out of him in albertinus , at large . 3. tertullian cont . marcion l. 3. c. 19. [ calling bread his body , that hence you may understand that he gave to bread the figure of his body . ] and before l. 1. [ he reprobated not — bread , by which he representeth his very body . ] and lib. 4. cap. 40. [ the bread which he took and distributed to his disciples he made his body , saying , this is my body ; that is , the figure of my body . — and what he would have bread then signifie , he sufficiently declared , calling bread his body . ] and it is a notable passage of tertullians against the academicks that questioned sense , lib. de anim . c. 17. [ what dost thou , o procacious academick ? thou overthrowest the whole state of life : thou disturbest the whole order of nature ; thou blindest the providence of god himself ; as if he had made mens lying and deceitful senses to be the lords , in understanding , honouring , dispensing and enjoying all his works ▪ is not the whole condition ( of man ) subadministred by these . ] and after [ we may not call those senses into question , lest christ himself must deliberate of their certainty ( or must distrust them ) . lest it may be said , that he falsly saw satan cast down from heaven , or falsly heard the voyce of his father testifying of him ; or was deceived when he touched peters wives mother — or perceived not a true taste of the wine which he consecrated in the memorial of his blood . ] many such places are in tertullian . 4. origen is large and plain to the same purpose in matth. 25. calling it [ bread and a typical and symbolical body , which profiteth none but the worthy receivers , and that according to the proportion of their faith , and which no wicked man doth eat , &c. ] many more such places albertinus vindicateth . 5. cyprians epistle to magnus is too large this way to be recited . as [ even the sacrifices of the lord declare the christian vnanimity , connexed by firm and inseparable love : for when the lord calleth bread his body ( or his body bread ) made up of many united grains , &c. and when he calleth the wine his blood , &c. ] so epist . ad caecil . 6. eusebius caesar . demonstr . evang. l. 1. c. 10. [ celebrating daily the memorial of the body and blood of christ ] — [ seeing then we receive the memorial of this sacrifice to be perfected on the table , by the symbols of his body and most precious blood — ] and l. 8. [ he delivered to us to use , bread as the symbol of his own body . ] 7. athanasius's words are recited by albertinus l. 2. p. 400 , 401 , &c. 8. basil . de spir. sanct. saith , [ which of the saints hath left us in writing the words of invocation , when the bread of the eucharist , and the cup of blessing are shewed ? ] 9. ephrem ( in biblioth . photii p. 415. edit . august . ) saith , [ the body of christ , which believers receive , loseth not his sensible substance , and is not separated from the intelligible grace . ] and ad eos qui filii dei , &c. [ take notice diligently how taking bread in his hands , he blessed it , and brake it , for a figure of his immaculate body , and he blessed the cup and gave it to his disciples as a figure of his pretious blood . ] 10. cyrillus ( vel . johan . ) hierosol . catech. mystag . calls the bread indeed christs body , but fully expounds himself de chrysmate , cat. 3. pag. 235. [ for as the bread of the eucharist , after the invocation of the holy ghost , is no more common bread , but is the body of christ : so also this holy oyntment is no more meer oyntment , nor ( if any one had rather so speak ) common , now it is consecrated ; but it is a gift ( or grace ) which causeth the presence of christ and the holy ghost ; that is , of his divinity . ] as the oyntment is grace , or the holy ghost , just so the bread is the body of christ , as he saith after cat. 4. it is not only what we see ( bread and wine ) but more . 11. hierom cont . jovinian . l. 2. the lord as a type ( or figure ) of his blood , offered not water but wine . 12. ambrose de sacram. l. 4. c. 4. [ this therefore we assert , how that which is bread , can yet be the body of christ . ] — and [ if christs speech had so much force , that it made that begin to be which was not , how much more is it operative , that the things that were , both be , and be changed into something else . ] and [ as thou hast drunk the similitude of death , so thou drinkest the similitude of pretious blood . ] 13. theodoret in dialog . immutab . dealeth with an eutychian heretick , who defended his error by pleading that the bread in the eucharist was changed into the body of christ : to whom saith theodoret , [ the lord who hath called that meat and bread which is naturally his body , and who again called himself a vine , did honour the visible signs with the appellation of his body and blood ; not having changed their nature , but added grace to nature . ] and in dialog . 2. in confus . he saith , [ the divine mysteries are signs of the true body . ] and again , answering the eutychians pretence of a change he saith , [ by the net which thou hast made , art thou taken . ☞ for even after the consecration , the mystical signs change not their nature : for they remain in all their first svbstance , figure and form , and are visible , and to be handled as before . but they are understood to be the things which they were made , and are believed and venerated as made that which they are believed to be . ] would you have plainer words ? 14. gelasius cont . nest . & eutych . saith , [ verily the sacraments of the body and blood of christ which we take , is a divine thing , for which and by which we are made partakers of the divine nature . ☞ and yet it ceaseth not to be the substance and nature of bread and wine . and certainly the image and similitude of the body and blood of christ are celebrated in the action of the mysteries . ] what can be plainer ? 15. cyril . alexandr . in john 4. cap. 14. saith , [ he gave to his believing disciples fragments of bread , saying , take , eat , this is my body . ] 16. facundus lib. 9. cap. 5. pag. 404. ( as cited by p. molin . de novitate papismi ) [ we call that the body and blood of christ which is the sacrament of his body , in the consecrated bread and cup. ☞ not that the bread is properly his body , and the cup his blood ; but because they contain the mysterie of his body and blood . ] but i am so weary of these needless transcriptions , that i will trouble my self and the reader with no more . albertinus will give him enow more who desireth them : and no doubt but with a wet finger they can blot out all these , and teach us to deny the sense of words , as well as our senses . d. but you said also , that the present church and its tradition is against transubstantiation , as well as the antient : how prove you that ? r. just as i prove that the protestants are against it . by the present church , i mean the far greater part of all the christians in the world . the greeks with the muscovites , the armenians , the syrians , the copties , the abassines , and the protestants , and all the rest who make up about twice or thrice as many as the papists . that they hold that there is true bread and wine after consecration , all impartial historians testifie , both papists and protestants , and their own several countreymen ; and also travellers who have been among them . and their liturgies , even those that are in the bibliotheca patrum put out by themselves , do testifie for those countreys where they are used ( though as bishop vsher hath detected ) by one words addition they have shamelesly endeavoured to corrupt the ethiopick liturgy about the real presence . ) but i need no more proof of that which no faithful history doth deny . and then i need not prove , that transubstantiation is against the most general or common tradition , for all these christians , the greeks , armenians , abassines , &c. profess to follow the religion which they have received from their ancestors , as well as the papists do : and if the papists be to be believed in saying that this is the religion which they received from their forefathers , why are not the other to be believed in the same case ? and if the popish tradition seem regardable to them , why should not the tradition of twice or thrice as many christians be more regardable ? and if in councils , the major vote must carry it ; why not in the judgement and tradition of the real body of christs church ? as for their trick of excepting against them as schismaticks and hereticks , to invalidate their votes and judgement , we despise it , as knowing that so any usurper that would make himself the sole judge , may say by all the rest of the world : but as they judge of others , they are justly judged by others themselves . chap. x. the second part of the controversie , whether it be christs very flesh and blood into which the bread and wine are transubstantiated . r. our first question was , whether there be any bread and wine left after consecration ; our second is , whether christs real flesh and blood be there , as that into which the bread and wine are changed ? and herein 1. i do freely grant , that the change of christs body by glorification is so great , as that it may be called , though not a spirit , yet a spiritual body , as paul , 1 cor. 15. saith ours when glorified shall be ; that is , a body very like in purity , simplicity , and activity to a spirit : and the general difference between a spirit and body was not held by many of the greek fathers as it is by us : and if the second council of nice was infallible , no angel or other creature is incorporeal : or as damasus saith , [ they are corporeal in respect to god , but incorporeal in respect to gross bodies . ] the perfect knowledge of the difference between corpus and spiritus , except by the formal virtues , is unknown to mortal men . 2. i grant therefore , that our senses are no competent judges , whether christs true body be in the sacrament ? no more than whether an angel be in this room ? there are bodies which are invisible . 3. i grant that it is unknown to us , how far christs glorified body may extend ? whether the same may be both in heaven and on earth ? i am not able nor willing to confute them that say , light is a body ; nor them that say , it is a spirit : nor them that say , it is quid medium as a nexus of both : i mean aether or ignis , visible in its light. and it is an incomprehensible wonder , if lumen be a real radiant or emanant part of the sun , that it should indivisibly fill all the space thence to this earth , and how much further little do we know . so for the extensions of christs body , let those that understand it dispute for me . 4. and i will grant that it is very probable that as in heaven we shall have both a soul and body , so the body is not like to have so near an intuition and fruition of god as the soul . and whether the glorified body of christ will not be there a medium of gods communication of glory to our bodies , yea and his glorified soul to our souls , as the sun is now to our eyes , i do not well understand : only i know that it is his prayer and will , that we be with him where he is to behold his glory ; and that god and the lamb will be the light of the heavenly jerusalem . 5. and i am fully satisfied that it is not the signs only ; but the real body and blood of christ , which are given us in the sacraments ( both baptism and the eucharist ) : but how given us ? relatively , de jure ; as a man is given to a woman in marriage ; or as a house and land are delivered to me , to be mine for my use ; though i touch them not . thus 1. a right to christ is given us : 2. and the fruits or benefits of his crucified body and shed blood , are actually given us , that is , pardon and the spirit , merited for us thereby . 6. and among the benefits given us , besides the relative , there are some such as we call real or physical terminatively , and hyperphysical originally ut à causa , which are the spirit of holiness , or the quickening , illuminating and sanctifying influence of the spirit of christ upon our souls . and the sacrament is appointed as a special means of communicating this . 7. i have met with some of late who say , that indeed christs body and blood in his humbled state , were not really eaten and drunk by the disciples , at his last supper : for the flesh profiteth not to such a use : but that his glorified body is spiritual , and is extensively communicated , and invisibly present under the form of bread in the sacrament ; and that as we have a body , a sensitive life , and an intellectual soul , so christ is the life of all these respectively ; viz. his body is made the spiritual nourishment of our bodies ; his sensitive soul ( for which the word blood is put , because it is in the blood in animals ) is the food or life of our sensitive souls ; and his intellectual soul , of ours : and to these uses they assert the real presence and oral participation of christs glorified body . to all which i say , 1. whether or how far an invisible spiritual body is present , sense is no judge ; nor can we know any further than gods word telleth us . 2. that christ in his glorified soul and body is our intercessour with god , through whom we have all things , we must not doubt . 3. that christ in his humane and divine nature now in heaven , is that teacher who hath left us a certain word , and that king who hath left us a perfect law of life , whom we must obey , and a promise which we must trust , we must not question . 4. that the holy ghost who is our spiritual life , is given us by , from and for christ our mediator , we must take for certain truth . but , though in all these respects , faith apprehendeth and liveth upon christ , yet that moreover his glorified body in substance , either feedeth or by contact purifieth our bodies , and his sensitive soul , our sensitive souls , and his intellectual soul , our intellectual souls , as if in themselves , and not in their effects only they were thus communicated to us , i understand not , either by any just conception of the thing it self , or any proof of it from the word of god. but if any can help me to see it , i shall not refuse instruction . nor can i see why the soul of christ should be said to be given in the wine only , and not in the bread ; nor why by this kind of communication he may not as truly be said to be given us in other ordinances as in the eucharist : nor know i what they mean by the forms of bread and wine , under which they say that christs body and blood is given : but i am past doubt that bread and wine are still really in substance there . and whereas the same men say that it is christs humbled flesh and blood as sacrificed on the cross that is commemorated , but his glorified body and soul only which are communicated and received , i must say , 1. that christ plainly tells us of his giving us his sacrificed body or flesh it self to eat , as he is the lamb of god that taketh away the sins of the world : and he saith , take , eat , this is my body which is broken for you , &c. so that the same body is commemorated and communicated : but how communicated ? in the effects of his sacrifice : his body was given a sacrifice to god for us , and the fruits of that sacrifice given to us . and thus he was given a sacrifice for the life of the world ; and thus we do receive him : by our bodily taking and eating the bread , we profess that our souls take him to be our saviour and cause of our life , both as purchasing and meriting it on earth , and interceding and communicating it in and from heaven . 2. and this doctrine will not serve the papists turn , who tell us that bread and wine are ceased , and that christs very flesh and blood is there , into which all the substance of the bread and wine are turned ; and that his natural body before his death , was in the same sort given under the forms of bread and wine as now ; and will not be beholden to this subterfuge . and indeed it is strange if the sacrament at the first institution should be one thing , and ever after another thing ; and that the bread should ever since be turned into christs body , upon the priests consecration , and not be turned into it , ( because not yet glorified ) upon his own words [ this is my body . ] therefore we must let this go , and speak of what they own and hold indeed . and as for any other bodily presence , influence or communication of christs body or soul , besides that which they call transubstantiation , we have nothing to do with it in this controversie . that the substance of the bread and wine is not turned into the substance of the flesh and blood of christ , is proved . i. because the glorified body of christ is not formally and properly flesh and blood : though it be the s●me body which was flesh and blood. the apostle paul saith , 1 cor. 15.50 , 51. [ now this i say , brethren , that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god , nor doth corruption inherit incorruption ; behold , i shew you a mysterie : we shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed . ] it is not only dr. hammond , but other of the best expositors who shew that by flesh and blood and corruption here is not meant sin , but flesh and blood formally considered ; which is ever corruptible : and the papists commonly confess this . if therefore it be flesh and blood which the bread and wine are turned into , then either christ hath two bodies , or two parts of one , which are utterly heterogeneal , one flesh and blood , and the other not ; one corruptible and the other incorruptible . ii. and this feigneth christ to be often incarnate , even thousands and millions of times ; and to lay down that incarnate body again as oft as it corrupteth , and to take up a new one as oft as the priest please ; and yet all but one . whereas the church and scripture have ever told us but of one incarnation of jesus christ . iii. and it is expresly contrary to his promise joh. 6.51 . i am the living bread which came down from heaven : if any man eat of this bread , he shall live for ever : and the bread which i give is my flesh which i will give for the life of the world — v. 34. who so eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life — he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood , dwelleth in me and i in him . as the living father hath sent me , and i live by the father , so he that eateth me , even he shall live by me — he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever — . ] these are the express promises of christ . but the papists say that wicked men and unbelievers eat the flesh of christ , who shall not live for ever , nor have eternal life , nor dwell in christ , but are more miserable by their hypocrisie . i pass by abundance of other arguments , because commonly used , and these are as many as my ends require ; and i would make the reader no more work than needs . chap. xi . the conclusion of the first book : the causes of popery . r. i have now made plain to you , 1. what the protestants religion is , ( or at least my own , and all that i perswade you or any other to embrace . ) 2. and also that it is granted to be all true by the generality of the papists ( as is explained and proved . ) 3. and i have told you , by an enumeration of some particulars , why i am not a papist , and why i do disswade you from it . 4. and i have made good my first charge , in the point of transubstantiation , if any thing in the world can be proved . the second i shall leave till another time , viz. to shew you how far their religion ( as popish ) is from infallible certainty ; and what horrid confusion is among them ; and how they have done much to promote infidelity in the world , by building religion upon some notorious untruths , and upon a multitude of utter uncertainties . though i doubt not but among them there are many true christians , who practically resolve their faith into the surer evidences of divine revelation , yet i shall clearly prove to you , that all those whose practical faith is no surer or better , than the notional opinions of their divines will allow , have no certain faith or religion at all : and what impudency is it to make men believe , that there is no certainty of religion to be had , but in their way , who build their religion upon such a multitude of uncertainties and certain falshoods , as will amaze you when i come to open them to you , viz. that ever so many learned men , and persons of all ranks , can be induced so to jest in the matters of their salvation . and if i be not by death or other greater work prevented , i hope in order to make good all the rest of the charges before mentioned , which are our reasons against the popish way of religion . in the mean time tell me what you think of that which is already said . d. i know not how to confute what you have said : and yet when i hear them on the other side , me thinks their tale seems fair , and i cannot answer them neither : so that between you both , we that are unlearned are in a sad case , who must thus be tost up and down by the disputations of disagreeing priests , so that we know not what a man may say is certain . r. to this i have several things to say ; 1. ordination doth not make men wise , holy , humble and self-denying ; but sets such men apart for the sacred office , who seek it , and have tolerable gifts of utterance : and it is too ordinary for worldly minded men , to make a worldly trade of the priesthood , meerly for ease , and wealth , and honour . in which case , do you not think that the papists who have multitudes of rich benefices , prelacies , preferments , and church-power , and worldly honour , are liker to be drawn by worldly interest , than such as i that am exceeding glad and thankful , if i might but preach for nothing ? 2. do you lay your faith and salvation upon plausible discourses ? and will you be of that mans faith , whom you cannot confute ? then you must be of every mans faith : or indeed of no mans . there are none of all these sects , so hardly confuted , as a porphyry , a julian or such like infidels who dispute against christ , and the truth of the scriptures ? or such sadducees as dispute against the immortality of the soul . alas , the tattle of papists , pelagians , antinomians , separatists , quakers , and all such , supposing the truth of the souls immortality and the scriptures , is easily resisted and confuted , in comparison of their assaults who deny these our foundations . and will you turn sadducee ▪ atheist or infidel because you cannot confute their sophistry ? i tell you , if you knew how much harder it is , to deal with one of these than with a papist or any other sectary , you would shake the head , to hear one man dispute for an universal monarch , and another dispute against a form of prayer , and another whether it be lawful to communicate with dissenters , &c. while so few of them all can defend their foundations , even the souls immortality and the scriptures , nor confute a subtle infidel or sadducee . 3. what if we all agreed to say that there is no bread in the sacrament after consecration ? were it ever the truer for that ? will you be deceived as oft as men can but agree to deceive you ? there is a far greater party agreed against jesus christ ( even five parts of the world ) than that which is agreed for him : will you therefore be against christ too ? there are more agreed for mahomet ( a gross upstart deceiver ) than are agreed for christ : and doth that make it certain that they are in the right ? 4. will you deny all your senses , and the senses of all the world , as oft as you cannot answer him that denyeth them ? upon these terms , what end will there be of any controversie , or what evidence shall ever satisfie man ? have papists any surer and more satisfying evidence for you , than sense ? i pray you tell me ; did you ever meet with any of them that doubt of another life , or of the immortality of the soul ? d. yes , many a one : i would we were all more certain than we are . r. and what is it that such men would have to put them out of doubt ? d. they say that our talk of prophets and supernatural revelation are all uncertainties ; and if they could see , they would believe . could they see such miracles as they read of : had they seen lazarus raised , or christ risen from the dead , &c. had they seen angels or devils or spirits appearing : had they seen heaven or hell , they would believe . r. and are not you more obstinate than they , if you will not believe that there is any bread and wine , when you see , feel , smell , and taste it , and all men that have senses are of the same mind ? what is left to satisfie you , if you give so little credit to the common sense of all the world ? d. but i oft think that the faith of all the church is much surer than my sense , or my private faith : at least it is safest to venture in the common road , and to speed as the church speedeth , which christ died for , and is his spouse . r. 1. but do you think that the opinion of the papal faction who are not the third part of the universal church , that is , the christian world , is the faith of all the church ? why call you opinion faith ? and a sect and faction , all the church ? 2. indeed if all the church did set their senses against mine , i would rather believe them than my senses : for i should think , that i were in that point distracted , or my senses by some disease perverted , which i did not perceive : i mean if it were in a case where they had the affirmative : as if all england should witness that they saw it light at midnight , i would think my eyes had some impediment which i knew not of , if i saw none . but this is not your case ; the papists themselves do not set all their senses against yours : much less the senses of all mankind : they do not say , that [ we and all men , except the protestants , do see , and feel , and taste that there is no bread and wine . ] but contrarily , you have the senses of all the world , and the saith of two or three parts of the christian world , against the opinion of one sect , which schismatically call themselves all the church . d. but suppose that they err in this one point , they may for all that be in the right in all the rest : who is it that hath no error ? i must not for this one forsake them . r. 1. i will stand to their own judgements in this , whether all their foundation and faith be not uncertain , if any one article of their faith prove false ? they are all ( that ever i knew ) agreed of the affirmative : and will give you no thanks for such a defence . 2. and if we come to that work , i shall prove all the rest of their opinions before mentioned to be also false . d. what then if i find but one point false in the protestants religion ? must i therefore forsake it all as false ? r. 1. still remember to distinguish between our objective and our subjective faith : or if you understand not those words , between gods revelation and mans belief of it : or the divine rule and matter of our faith , and our faith it self . and about our own belief you must distinguish between a mans profession of belief , and the reality of his belief . all true protestants profess to take gods word alone , or his revelation in nature and scripture , for the whole matter of their divine belief and religion ▪ but who it is that sincerely believeth little do i know : nor how much of this word any singular person understandeth , and believeth , i can give you no account of . if personal faith were that which we dispute of , i would be accountable for no mans but mine own . in this sense , there are as many faiths and religions as men : for every man hath his own faith and religion : and if you know that a man erreth in one point , it followeth not that he erreth in another . they that believed that the resurrection was past , believed a falshood : and yet truly believed that christ was the messiah : they erred that thought it lawful to eat things offered to idols ; and yet they erred not in believing in christ . no two men in the world , its like , have the same degree of personal faith and knowledge ; as i oft said before . but if our professed object of faith , that is , gods word , were false in one thing , we could not be sure that it were true in any thing . yet here i told you before , 1. that a man may be much surer that one part of scripture is gods word , than another ; because some copies are doubtful in the diverse readings of some particular words or sentences ; and which of them that so differ is gods word , we oft know not : but so much as we are sure is the word of god , we are sure is true : so if the authority of some few books was once doubted of , ( as 2 pet. jam. jud. heb. &c. ) and yet be by any , it followeth not that they doubt of the truth of any , which they know to be the word of god. 2. or if any do hold that the penmen might be left to their natural fallibility in some by historical circumstances or words , it would not follow , that one article of the gospel or christian faith is doubtful , which is plainly as the kernel of it , delivered in all the scripture , and also by infallible universal tradition , by it self , in the sacrament , creed , lords prayer and decalogue . and our case also much differeth from the papists in this : for we profess that our objective faith , ( gods word ) is infallible , and we are infallible so far as we believe it : but we confess that we are lyable to misunderstand some parts of it ; and so far are fallible , as being imperfect : but the papists say , that their pope and councils and universal practicers are personally infallible , so as not to be lyable to any misunderstanding of any article of faith ( say some ) or article of catholick faith ( say others ) : and so they make their own act of believing to be commensurate and equally certain with gods word of faith ; and therefore they allow you to question them in all , if they err in one , as pretending to a gift of never erring in any . d. but is it not a great reason to incline us to them rather than to you , when they only pretend to infallibility , and you confess that you are all fallible in your belief ? r. this is to be the subject of our next conference , and therefore not now to be anticipated ; only i shall tell you , that it is a meer noise of ambiguous words to deceive the heedless that cannot search out the meaning of them . 1. we not only pretend , but profess and prove that our christian religion is altogether infallible . for which end i have written divers treatises my self . 2. and we profess that all the mystical church of christ ( that is all sincere christians ) do truly and infallibly believe all that is essential to christianity , and as much of the integrals as they can know . 3. and we profess that the catholick church-visible ( that is , all professors of christianity in the world ) do profess all these essentials of christianity , and are infallible in this profession . but we hold withall , that there is no particular church , or bishop , no synod or council , that is so infallible , but that , 1. they that hold to the essentials may misunderstand and err about some integrals : 2. and those persons have no certainty that they shall not err by heresie or apostacy from the essentials themselves : so that the church is infallible , because it is essentiated by believing an infallible word ; which who ever believeth not , ceaseth to be of the church : not gods word infallible , because the church or any number of men believe it , or say its true : for truth is before knowledge and faith : as aristotle was a philosopher , because he understood and taught the doctrine of real philosophy ; and not that doctrine called physicks or philosophy , because that aristotle knew or taught it . but , alas , what work shall i shew you when i come to open their bewildring uncertainties ? d. but to deal freely with you , methinks their way of measuring out the necessaries in faith and religion according to mens various parts and opportunities , seemeth to me more satisfactory than yours , who fix upon certain points ( as the baptismal covenant ) as essentials . for there is great diversity of mens capacities . r. this cometh from confounding several questions as if they were all one . 1. it is one question , what is the christian religion ? 2. ☞ it is another question , whether the christian religion be absolutely necessary to the salvation of all those to whom it was never competently revealed ? 3. and it is another question , whether more than the essentials of christian religion be not necessary to the salvation of many who have opportunity to know more ? alas , what work doth confusion make in the world ! to the first , it is evident that as mahometanism is a thing which may be defined , so much more may christianity : who that writeth of the several religions of the world , ethnick , jewish , mahometan , and christian , do not take them to be distinguishable and discernable ? especially when christ hath summed up christianity into a covenant , and given it us in express words , and affixed a flat promise of salvation to the true covenanters , and the church hath ever called our baptism , our christening ? is christianity nothing ? if something , why may it not be defined , and differenced from all false religions ? and if so , it hath its essential constitutive parts . all this is plain to children that will see . 2. and then as to the second question , it concerneth not our controversie at all . it is but whether any infidels may be saved ? or any that are no christians ? and if it could be proved , that any are saved that are no christians , do you thereby prove that they are christians , or members of the christian church ? or that christianity is not a religion which may be defined ? 3. and as to the third question , we are on all sides agreed in it , that they that have more than the naked essentials of christianity revealed to them aptly , are bound to believe more : yea , it is hardly conceiveable that any one should know and believe the essentials only , and no more : it is not essential to the christian covenant or christianity to know that the name of christs mother was mary ; or that pontius pilate was the man that condemned him ; and if an ignorant man thought that his continuance in the grave was four dayes , i do not think that this would damn his soul to hell : ( much less the not believing that mary dyed a virgin. ) and yet it is not like that any man should come to the essentials of christianity by any such way , as should acquaint him with no one of these , or any point besides the said essentials . and yet it is certain for all this , that he that truly receiveth the essentials , and is true to the baptismal covenant , shall be saved , whatsoever else he want : but it is as true , that he that receiveth the essentials , will ( from the same principles and obligations ) receive more , when it is aptly notified to him : and he that truly covenanteth , will honestly keep the covenant he maketh ; which bindeth him still to learn of christ . but if any man be saved without the essentials , he must be saved without christianity . d. but you know that they distinguish of faith explicite and implicite : he may be implicitely a christian that believeth not the essentials explicitely ; as long as he believeth that which would infer them ; if they were made known to him to be indeed the word of god. r. thus do words abuse and cheat the ignorant : could you but read their own dr. holden before cited in his analys . fid . you would find this distinction justly rendred by him shameful and ridiculous , according to their common sense and use of it ; and the truer sense delivered and vindicated . an implicite faith or knowledge we confess to be true , as it is opposed to 1. a distinct , or 2. to a well-expressed faith or knowledge . for it is implicite , ☞ 1. as to the object , when a man knoweth the whole matter , but not by distinct parts : as a man may know a cup of water , and not know how many drops or drams it is ; or he may know a sentence , and not know how many letters are in it . 2. or it is implicite as to the act , when it is yet but a crude imperfect conception , and the thing is really known , but not the logical notions , or grammatical names , either the verba oris or mentis by which it should be expressed : so that the man cannot notifie his knowledge to another . these two are called implicite ; the first signifieth confused and general knowledge , and the other imperfect and undigested . but to call that implicite faith or knowledge , which extendeth only to some principles , and not to the conclusions themselves , is 1. to call no-knowledge and faith , by the name of knowledge and faith . 2. and by their application to confound the world and the church , and to make all the infidels and heathens to be christians , and every fool a philosopher . for , 1. all men of reason know these two principles ( who own a god ) , 1. that god is not a lyer , but all his word is true. 2. that all the truths in the world are god's , some way or other revealed by him . therefore , if they knew that the gospel were gods word , they would believe it : or if they knew it to be one of those truths that are in the world , they would take it to be of god. and thus all infidels , and turks , and pagans may ( by such abuse ) be called implicite christians . but why then do the papists burn the protestants when if their religion were true , we are all implicitely papists . for we believe , 1. that all divine revelations are true ; 2. and that all those are infallible whom god hath promised to make infallible ; 3. and that all those must be believed and obeyed whom god hath commanded us to believe and obey ; 4. and that we must not forsake that church which god hath commanded us to adhere to ; 5. and that all our lawful pastors must be reverenced and submitted to ; 6. and all their lawful precepts obeyed . 7. and all gods sacraments holily used ; 8. and all traditions from the apostles to the churches received ; with many more such : only we know not that the pope is our pastor , or that his councils are the church , or have a promise of infallibility ; and so of the rest . and yet we must burn for it , if they can procure it . and yet he is a true believer implicitely who believeth not the essentials of christianity . but the design which is predominant here is too visible , when this implicite faith cometh to be described : for it is not a belief in god , or in christ only that will serve the turn , but it must be a belief in the church , and their church , and their pope too , or else it will not do . the implicite faith is the explicite belief of these three articles : 1. all gods word is true : 2. all that is gods word , which the church tells us is gods word . 3. the pope and his council and subjects are this church . and yet this man must be supposed if he know no more , per impossibile , not to know that there is a christ , or who he is as to his person or office , or what he hath done , or will do for us : and yet that he hath a vicar and a church . or else they may know christ and christianity before they know that there is any pope or church , and then the pope hath lost the game . d. but if popery be so senseless a thing as you make it , how come so great a number of persons of all ranks and qualities , kings , nobles , learned men , and religiously-disposed persons to embrace it ? have not they souls to save or lose as well as you ? and do they not lay all their hopes of heaven upon it ? and can such persons , and so many , be so mad and senseless ? r. do we need thus to ramble round about , as if we would doubt of the thing till we know the causes of it ? when we see and they all confess that they deny all our senses ? will you not believe that there is a sun , till you know what it is made of ? or whether the sea ebb and flow , till you know the causes of it ? i pray you tell me , q. 1. do you think that the mahometan's is not a very foolish religion , and their foundation ( the pretended mission of their prophet ) without any shew of truth ; and his alcoran ( if ever you read it ) a heap of non-sense and confusion ? d. yes : i think it deserveth no better thoughts . r. and do you not know that ( though it arose not till about six hundred years after christ ) much more of the world is mahometan than christian ? and are there not far greater emperours and princes mahometans than any that are christians ? and have not all these souls to save or lose ? and do they not all venture their souls upon that religion ? why then is not your argument here as good for mahometanism as for popery ? d. though the emperours of constantinople , the great mogul , the persian , tartarian mahometans , &c. be all great as to their vast dominions , yet they are barbarous and unlearned in comparison of the papists . r. 1. it is not because they have not as much wit as we : but because they think that our laborious wordy kind of learning , is an abuse of wit , and against true policy , ludicrously or contentiously diverting mens minds and time from those employments which they think more manly and profitable to the common-wealth ; though no doubt but they do err more unmanly on that extream . but i further ask you , q. 2. do you not think that the common religion of the heathens is very unworthy for any wise man to venture his soul upon ? if you have but read how it is described by the antient christians , justin , athenagoras , origen , arnobius , minutius foelix , tertullian , lactantius , eusebius , augustine , &c. you will say that they thought it a ridiculous unmanly religion . d. i think no better of it than they did . r. and 1. do you not know that almost all the world was then heathen and idolaters ? alas , what was judaea ( less than england ) to all the world ? was not the roman empire , and alexanders before that , far greater than any christian prince hath now ? and to this day , are not four sixth parts of the whole world ( at least ) heathens and idolaters ? brierwoods calculation is , that if you divide the world into thirty parts , nineteen are heathen , six mahometans , and five only christians of all sorts : besides the vast unknown parts of the world , which are not like to have any religion of supernatural revelation . 2. and do you not know , that athens and rome-heathen were no barbarians , but of most polite literature , and the fathers of the learning now in use ; and that when the christians arose among them , they accounted them barbarians ? and at this day , and long before us , the chinenses have been addicted to arts and literature : and the brachmanes and bonzii are no barbarians . and have not all these souls to save or lose ? and are all these so mad as to cast away their souls upon a senseless contemptible religion ? if your reason be good , how much more will it hold for the heathens , than the papists ? alas , what a handful are the papists in comparison of the present idolaters ! much more in comparison of the antient heathen world , before christianity and mahometanism dispossessed them of those parts which they now hold ! with what greater shew of advantage did the heathens use the arguments which the papists do now put their trust in , and lay their cause upon ! 1. do they talk of antiquity ? why , it was the novelty of christianity in comparison of heathenism through the world , which was it that hardned them to contemn and persecute it . 2. do they talk of vniversality and consent ? alas , how little a part of the world were the christians at first , and are the papists now , in comparison of the heathens , then and now ? 3. do they talk of greatness , empire , acts and learning ? how little are they as to the first , to the heathen empires ? and for learning , they received it of them : and aristotle still is the schoolmens oracle . and yet doubtless all these advantages are not sufficient to disprove the follies of heanism , nor the badness of their religion ? and yet will so much less serve to support the credit of senseless popery ? d. but christians may well expect greater helps from god , than heathens or mahometans : therefore that so many great and learned and religious christians should go such a senseless way to another world , methinks seemeth strange . r. and are not greeks , armenians , syrians , abassines and protestants , all christians as well as they ? their proud schismatical unchristening all but the subjects of the pope , is a silly proof that we are no christians , or that they are any better than others ; unless malignity , uncharitableness and schism be the true excellency . 1. and are not other christians more than the papists ? bishop bramhall reckons the papists to be about the fifth part of christians : suppose they be a third part ? they are still the minor part . 2. and are not the protestants as learned as the papists ? why then will not your argument hold against them as well as for them ? have not all these christians souls to save or lose ? and do they not take that for the true religion on which they trust their souls ? d. but though all these set together are more than the church of rome , yet no one sect of them is so great ; and what matter is it how many various sects are ? r. 1. the greek church is judged by wise men , te be yet bigger than the roman , even in this its broken state : but there is no doubt but it was much bigger long after the first division , before the turk did win the eastern empire . 2. but , if it were not so , your objection is frivolous . the question is either of different churches , or of different opinions and parties in the same church . as to the first , there are but two opinions in the christian world , that i know of , about the constitution of the catholick church . the one is the opinion of the papists only , ☞ that the catholick church is essentially constituted both of christ , and the pope as his vicar and universal monarch , with all his subjects ; as the pars imperans and pars subdita . the other is the judgement of all other christians , ( that i know or hear of , ) that the catholick church is essentially constituted only of christ as the supream head , or king , or pars imperans , and his subjects as the pars subdita ; ☞ and that patriarchs , archbishops , bishops , &c. are but officiales & subditi primarii vel nobiles , constitutive parts indeed of their particular churches ( some humane , and some divine ) but no essential parts of the catholick church . ☞ this is the grand difference between the papists and all other christians in the world , what the catholick church is ? whether it have any constitutive vniversal head or monarch besides christ ? now seeing that greeks , abassines , armenians and all agree with us in this against the papists , it is evident to them that are willing to see that we are all of the same catholick church , though not of the same particular churches , nor all for the same official ministers ; because we are all for the same constitutive head , and his subjects as such , and agree in all the essential parts , ☞ so that our differences among all these parties or particular churches or countries is but the difference of opinions and parties in one and the same church ; and not a difference of catholick churches ( which can be but one . ) and if that be the question , i undertake to prove that there is no one sect of christians known under heaven , that hath so many different opinions within it self , ( if half so many , ) nor have written half so much against one another , as the papists have done . 3. but i must not here anticipate my further work : when i come to that , i shall shew you how small and how disagreeing a part of the christian world the papists are . i have elsewhere recited the words of their melchior canus who boasteth that the papacy yet standeth , though almost all the world , and besides princes , almost all the bishops and churches have fought against it . was it then the universal church ? and the words of reynerius who saith , that the churches of the armenians and the others planted by the apostles ( without the empire he meaneth ) were not under the pope of rome . i shall , if i live to do that work , yet fullier shew you , that the pope was but the chief patriarch in one empire , as the archbishop of canterbury is the chief bishop in england ; and that his general councils were but general assemblies of the empire ( inconsiderable occasional accidentals excepted ) , even as our convocations , or the scots general assemblies were , though in a far larger empire . but all this i have done already in other writings , beyond all reasonable contradiction . d. tell me then , how it cometh to pass that so many princes , nobles , learned men , and religious can be so marvellously deluded ? r. alas poor man ; you talk as if you knew not your self nor mankind ! how bad a thing corrupt unsanctified nature is ! why do you not also ask , how cometh it to pass , that the far greatest part of the world ( even five parts of six ) are heathens and mahometanes ! and that most of the world are wilful self-destroyers ; many ruining their very bodies , eating , and drinking , and whoreing , and idling them into gowt , stone , dropsies and an hundred maladies : but far more ruining their souls . why do you not also ask , how reasonable creatures ( of all professions ) are so worse than mad , as to sell their souls and everlasting hopes , for a dream and shadow , or for dirt and dung ; even for a few cups or morsels , or merry hours , which they know are like the mirth of drunkenness , which is quickly gone , and ends in sickness and in shame ! for a great name , and a large attendance in their way to the grave ! for the thoughts and breath of mortal man ! and for that which all men first or last , are forced to call meer vanity and vexation ! were not men mad in sin , had they never heard a preacher , the sight of a dead carkass and a grave would do more to make them sober and considerate , than is done with most . when most of the world will obstinately follow the devil their enemy , by known sin to everlasting misery , against all the commands , exhortations , promises , threatnings , mercies and warnings of god himself , and all the perswasions of their truest friends , what wonder if the same men can be papists or any thing ? but i will tell you some of the particular causes . i. abroad in other countries , there are all these reasons easily discernible . 1. who knoweth not how great an advantage education hath , to form mens judgements to almost any thing , how bad soever ? that which children receive , if it be not disagreeable to their sensible interest , how commonly and tenaciously do they follow ? whence is it that the whole empires and kingdoms of pagans are all of one mind ; and the kingdoms of mahometans of another ? one kingdom almost all greek christians and another papists , and another lutherans , and another reformists , & c ? hath not education a great hand in this ? 2. and the custome of the countrey , and the company which they converse with , is of no small power with mens minds . especially when men live where almost all are of a mind , they think that concord is a sign of truth , and modesty forbiddeth them to be wiser than all the countrey . 3. and when they know few or none of another mind , how should they know what they are ? and when they hear an hundred lies against them , and never hear them speak for themselves , they think that the law of modesty , humanity and converse , oblige them to believe , that so many , so great , and so learned and religious persons will not impudently lie : when as perhaps the lye it self is a tradition which the lyars received on the same terms in modest credulity from their teachers or fathers . 4. and specially , the names of order , government , vnity , and concord , deceive many millions of souls : for order and vnity are justly amiable to nature it self . and the purblind know not an image from a man. 5. especially when civil wars , or church discords have distracted the world , and made men aweary of all that 's present , and suspicious of all things , which seemed to have a hand in their disappointments ; this maketh men hearken to any thing which pretendeth to certain settlement , order and peace . even as a man that by turning round is wheelsick , will lay hold on the next post or fixed thing , to keep him from falling down . 6. and when their teachers make them believe , that all christians besides them do live like mad-men , in sects and schismes , distractedly tearing out one anothers throats , what wonder if this make men willing of any way which pretends to peace , and glad to run into any cottage which will keep them from such a storm ? 7. but the great cause is , 1. the blindness of mens minds , 2. the wickedness of all unrenewed hearts , and 3. the power of carnal interest . 1. few men are of great natural parts for wit , and fewer improve them , by any serious study of things spiritual . 2. almost all men study with the byas of prejudice and partiality , and as men that would have one side to be right , because it is for their worldly ends . 3. sin ruleth in most souls , and the enmity against god and his laws prevaileth in carnal minds , rom. 8.6 , 7 , 8. and enmity is an ill student and seeker of truth ; and friendship is an incompetent judge of sin . 4. none but a few self-denying persons can bear to be reproached as hereticks and schismaticks by all about them . 5. especially the countenance or discountenance of great ones , doth more with such than heaven and hell. 6. and that 's not all , but he that will not be a papist , in most of their countreys must be undone , and in many must be rackt , tormented and burnt : and it is but few that have learnt to go to so high a price for truth , and to be religious at such a rate . 8. therefore it is a thing utterly unknown among them , who is heartily a papist , and who not . for when men must take on them to be papists or be undone , or burnt , millions will seem to be such that are not . for , 9. most of the world have no religion in truth and power , to overcome the world and flesh : and therefore will seem to be of that religion , which hath the upper hand , and serveth their turns . 10. yea , the very belief of the immortality of the soul , the resurrection and the life to come , is feeble , if not unsound and lifeless , in the most of men : and so is the belief of the christian faith : and a man that doubteth whether there be another life or not , will make as sure as he can of the pleasures of this present life . and i fear that this is the case of no small number of papists ; to think , [ i know not whether there be any other life of retribution : i rather think that there is none : but lest it should prove true , i will be of some religion : and where can i be with more ease and safety , than in that which my rulers and teachers and the whole countrey say is right ? if it prove otherwise , i hope god will excuse me , while i obey my governours , and do as the most do . ] he that much doubteth of the truth of christianity it self , may easily fall in with any sect which seemeth for his interest . i fear melancthon too truly said , that italians maintain that christ is in the sacrament , when they do not believe that he is in heaven . 11. and many nicodemites think , that a man needs not expose himself to danger for his faith , but may keep it to himself , and do as his neighbours do : especially where they have no other society to joyn with , they think it better to joyn with the popish churches than none . 12. and i have reason to think that it is but few among the multitude , that understand indeed what the papists hold , while they go with them in the general name and profession : and in particular about transubstantiation : when even the subtle schoolmen are not agreed of its proper sense ; ( as durandus his instance for one doth prove . ) i do not think that one of an hundred that receiveth their eucharist , doth in his heart believe , that it is not bread : but some think that their church it self meaneth otherwise : and some say , [ it is not for such as i to contradict them and dispute ; but i will leave every one to think as he will ; and so will i. ] 13. and as for princes and lords abroad , those that have once escaped popery will take heed how they entertain it again , unless lust and folly have sold them for a prey : but they that live where their subjects are papists , dare not venture to shake so great a fabrick , lest they overthrow themselves : for 1. people are tumultuous ; 2. the popish clergie are rich and powerful and exceeding numerous . 3. religion is a thing that men are tender and tenacious of , who are seriously of any . 4. the popish doctrine of deposing and killing excommunicate kings , maketh many princes flatter the priests , for fear of losing ●heir lives . they think that it is better make some advantage of the popes friendship , than to have such an enemy , whose knives and poison have easie access , and whose armies we must watch against in peace , as in a continued war , and we know not when they are in our own houses or near us , nor where nor when we are in safety . 14. and , alas , the great ones of the world have the greatest temptations , and not the weakest lusts and passions , and have more of worldly and carnal interest to carry them away ! 15. and the papists religion is notably suited to their lusts and carnal ends : all which , and much more , may tell you that it no wonder , that so many forreign princes , and states and nobles can cleave to so sensless a way as popery . d. ii. but how come so many among us in england to turn papists of late years , where popery is discountenanced by the king , parliament and laws ? r. many of the same causes do this , which i need not reherse . and 1. too many both noble and ignoble are prepared by their lusts , and by a vicious life . there are many things in popery which greatly accommodate a carnal mind and a debauched guilty conscience , which the christian protestant religion affordeth not . and a profligate flagitious person , is likeliest to be forsaken of god , and to be given up to believe a lye , seeing they received not the truth in the love of it , that they might be saved , 2 thess . 2.10 , 11 , 12. i fear nothing so much , as lest men turn heart-infidels and tongue-papists ( as the suitablest reserve , lest christian religion and the life to come , should prove a truth ) . and indeed great sins cry for great vengeance : and what greater than for mind , will and life to be forsaken of god ? 2. and alas , except lawyers , physicions and others bred up to studies and employments , how few are there of nobility or gentry that are hard studying men ! and the great mysteries of religion will not be well learned and defended , by a life of eating , drinking , playing , jeasting , gaming , hawking , hunting , visitings of empty company , lustfulness , worldliness , or vain-glorious pomp . no men grow wise or christians indeed by such a course . 3. and indeed the popish priests are more industrious than too many of our incumbent ministers ; for which they are commendable in their way : the erroneous are oft more zealous than the orthodox . and they that apprehend themselves between fear and hope , are usually more industrious than they that by possession are secure : which maketh the lower side so oft get up , and the upper side go down . and i would i might not say , that our ministers are too few of them able to deal with a trained sophister : some are unable in this particular cause , because they take it as a baffled pack of notorious errors , and thought that few sober persons were in danger of it : and so they have ( honestly ) bent their studies and labours to the winning of sensual persons from their sins ; and are unfurnished in the popish controversies ; knowing that they can refer them to multitudes of books , which are unanswerable . but alas , too many also are unable through meer ignorance , lowness of parts , and gross insufficiency or negligence , not only in this , but other parts of their ministerial work . 4. and we have incurred no small dammage and danger , by ignorant over-doing against the papists : partly with the self-wise sectaries , calling many laudable or blameless things , by the name of popery , antichristianity and idolatry , because they are cross to their pre-judging partial conceits : and partly by some unsound doctrines , which some defend as parts of the protestant religion : and partly by magnifying verbal differences , and making a noise about them as if they were real , and such as salvation lyeth on : for want of skill to state a controversie , and discern a verbal difference from a real . and when a papist can but shew their novices one such palpable error in the writings of a protestant ; what sad work will he make with it ? and still harp upon that string , and perswade the people that the rest of our differences are such like . and thus many overdoing well-meaning ignorant men both ministers and people , have unwittingly done as much to harden papists , and increase their numbers , almost as if satan had hired them as spies , to betray the churches and cause of christ : yea , and if one better studied in these points , shall go a sounder and more successful way to work , and take these weapons out of the papists hands , which some ignorant protestants have given them , the same mens blind zeal will rage against them , ( as some did against chillingworth , anthony wotton , and divers others our greatest champions ) as if it were not themselves but these , that were befriending popery . so that they neither can confute them soundly themselves , nor will suffer others , but zealous protestants assault christs ablest servants at their backs , while their faces are towards the adversaries whom they oppose . 5. but nothing among us ( except ignorance and wickedness ) increaseth them more , than the scandal of our numerous , and some of them abominable sects . when the people see many zealous professors turn quakers , or ranters , or seekers , or antinomians , or socinians , or familists ; and shall see the more tolerable parties ( episcopal , presbyterian , independant , erastian , separatists , and anabaptists ) condemning , backbiting , reproaching and making odious ( if not persecuteing ) one another , and shunning ( many of them ) the communion of one another , as they do the papists . this makes them think , that they must seek some surer soberer way than any of us have yet found : and the papists set in and tell them , [ all these are branches broken off from the true vine and withered ; this it is to depart from the catholick church ; when they are once gone thence , there is no stop or consistence , till they crumble all to dust and atomes : you must become roman catholicks , or go mad : you see to what confusion all others tend : if you once leave our church , you will never know where to settle ▪ which sect will you be of ? if an independant , why not an anabaptist ? if an anabaptist , why not an antinomian ? how will you ever know which one of all these is in the right ] ? all this is easily answered by a man of understanding ; but to the ignorant vulgar , it seemeth unanswerable . and alas , how many have given them this scandal ? wo be to some by whom offence cometh . 6. but the contentions of our clergie advantage them more than the divisions of the people : when we are of many interests , and many parties , and proceed to make each other contemptible and odious : especially when we come to hinder each other from the work of our ministry . a house and kingdom divided cannot stand : christ tells us that the devil himself is not so foolish , as to divide his kingdom . all our consent and best endeavour is too little to save mens souls from sin and error : and when one part is cast by , and each part by contention hindereth the other : the papists have the far easier work . when one part are not to come within five miles of cities or corporations , where papists are , and those that may come near them are too few , and many too indisposed , or negligent in resisting them ; so that we are all overdone by their priests in constant diligence , ( especially with the greater rank of men , with whom one part of our ministers , have almost as little inclination as opportunity to converse , ) no wonder if the roman work go on . 7. and , alas , how great advantage have they made of our late calamitous civil wars , and manifold scandalous rebellions ? though indeed it was the terrour of their murdering about two hundred thousand in ireland ( of which see bishop jones , sir john temple , and the earl of orery against welsh , ) which frightened those that i was acquainted with , out of their peace , and almost out of their wits here in england , yet dead men are not heard on earth , and their service for the king in england serveth not only for a cloke for that , but for an advantage against many that stand in their way . in all civil wars , if the clergy be drawn in to own several causes ( especially if they own an ill cause ) who ever prevaileth , religion suffereth by it ; while one part of them are laid by , or hindered by the other . 8. and though god hath greatly obliged this nation to thankfulness , by preserving our superiours so much from popery as he hath done , yet some of their names are injuriously abused , to entice men to the popish way , as if it had so much countenance and patronage , that interest might invite them to it . 9. and the world is lyable to changes , and weary of holding long in one way : the name of antiquity especially in religion is venerable with all ; but yet it is novelty that pleaseth in the matter . and when popery is to us a new way honoured with the name of the old religion , it is a taking bait . 10. but the grand cause of all , is , the common peoples ignorance , as being ungrounded in their own religion ; and their badness , who measure all by carnal interests , and all our great and manifold sins , by which we have forfeited gods presence and his grace , and provoked him to leave us to the shame and ruine of our own lusts and delusions to undoe our selves . great sins bring great plagues . and most men are of their religion who have the greatest interest in their estimation and affections , or that have greatest advantage on them by constant nearness , familiarity , kindred , kindness or power to do them good or hurt in the world. and therefore to your question why so many of late turn papists , i shall but now concludingly answer you , as i begun with you , concerning the cause of your own doubts ; they that have long lived under the light of the holy gospel , and among the mercies which have blest this land , and yet have been sincerely no true christians , but loved their fleshly lusts and pleasures , and their wealth and worldly honour , more than god , or holiness , or heaven , it is no wonder that they easily change their party , and can be , in siding , of any religion who are in sincerity of none ; and if god forsake their understandings , and give them up to senseless and unreasonable opinions , who would not live according to the knowledge which they had , nor obey the truth which was clearly opened to them . and such hypocrites and perfidious rebels against christ , all protestants do confess themselves to have been , who turn papists , and know what they do : because they profess to go from a state of damnation , into a church out of which there is no salvation ; if the popes judgement be as powerful in heaven , as it is at rome . d. but is there no hope of ending these lamentable differences , and removing the scandal of infidels hereby ? or at least of living together like neighbours without seeking each others blood or ruine ? r. 1. yes ; when god shall by his providence take down the worldly greatness and advantages of the papacy , and level the king of rome with the true pastors of his church , and turn the usurping monarch of all the world into a true bishop ; that so worldly power , honour and wealth , may not be stronger arguments with their party than heaven and hell , and gods commands . till then their great twisted interest is like to rule them , and keep them in the errours into which it hath involved them . especially while their pretended infallibility ( against all sense and reason ) is their strength , which maketh them uncurable in any errour which they once embrace . 2. but yet i did in the second part of my key for catholicks , long ago shew the terms on which we may live like neighbours , if not like christians , if their principles would allow their minds , to be but peaceable , and give dissenters leave to live . and i still profess that might we but secure our selves and our posterity , i am none of those that would have the least injury , much less cruelty exercised upon any man for being a papist : if they will live peaceably with me , or but give me leave , i will live peaceably with them . and i doubt not but as there are some among them truly fearing god ( though corrupt with the errours of their education ) so there are more that are of kind and civil natures , which their ill opinions cannot make fierce and sanguinary nor overcome . and none of them , i think , shall be more loving , kind and peaceable to me , than i will be to him . and i confess i have a greater respect and honour for those whose ancestors have transmitted popery to them under the name of the true catholick faith , and who live according to what they know ( though perhaps in blind zeal they hate me and such others for the interest of their way , ) than i have for those that seemed once protestants , and by filthy debauched lives have made it seem needful or convenient for them to turn papists , that they may have a seeming religion and priests pardons to quiet or deceive their consciences ; or than i have for those papists who live in drunkenness , lust and common lying and prophane swearing , while yet they seem to be religious and regardful of god and their souls ; or than i have for those priests who befriend such mens wickedness for the increase and interest of their church . yea , i truly profess that if i know a truly godly conscionable charitable papist , i must , i will love and honour him far more than an ungodly , unconscionable , uncharitable protestant . and as far as i can discern , both ministers and private christians ( but especially ministers ) whom i most converse with , are of the same mind . d. but is there no way possible to bring them fairly off , in this gross business of transubstantiation , without putting them upon the disclaiming of the popes and general councils infallibility ? r. i am not bound to devise accommodations to strengthen them in their other errours , if i could . but yet i would cure any errour in any , though they intend their own cure to an evil end . i cannot be perswaded but their understanding men are sorry at the heart that the laterane council hath drawn them into such a snare , by making transubstantiation an article of their faith ; and that they are very angry at them , and wish that it had never been done : but being done they must take on them to believe it , lest they pull down with their foundation all their fabrick . i doubt not but they are troubled and ashamed to read the schoolmens disputes of transubstantiation , exposing christianity to the infidels scorn , which this council hath most occasioned . i know not how to bring them off , unless they will hearken to what dr. taylor in his disswasive from popery , and dr. heylin , and dr. pierson and dr. gunning in the dispute , have said against the validity of that laterane council ( could they but spare the canon for deposing temporal lords , and dispossessing them of their dominions , and absolving all their papists subjects from their oaths of allegiance and exterminating the rest ; yea it would be more serviceable to them at last with princes , to retract that also , than to keep it . ) their best way is to take the help of these pretences , and condemn the contrary reasons of mr. terret and his fellow disputant against the foresaid doctors , and expunge that council out of binnius , surius and the rest who number it with the approved councils ; and because matth. paris and others say that some at the council thought the canons burdensom , and they were brought in by the pope , and hastily read , &c. therefore say , that they were not passed at least conciliariter , which you know is a word that serveth their turn against another council which they dislike . d. but what shall they do with following councils , especially that at trent , which say the same ? r. the best shifts that i know are , 1. to do as they do about the condemning of pope honoririus as a heretick . they say that a general council and pope too may err in a matter of fact ; and so they did in judging of honorius his meaning : so they may say , that the council of trent did decree this as an article of faith , only because they thought that the church so held it : which was because they thought that the general approved council of laterane had so decreed it ▪ but now finding that it was not so decreed there , the error in matter of fact ceasing , which was the supposition , the doctrinal error proveth to be no article of faith , or conciliariter decretum . 2. or if this will not do , they are best yet stretch the words of rome and trent , to a more tolerable signification , and say , that it is not the ceasing of the substance of bread and wine which is meant ; but the changing it into a relative new form : and so , as the whole substance of a man is changed from being a meer common man , into a king , a bishop , a doctor , without any cessation of his humanity ; but only quia forma ultima denominat , he is not any more to be called meerly a man , but a king , a bishop , &c. or , as the whole substance of a piece of gold is changed into currant coin by the kings stamp , &c. so the whole substance of bread is turned into the ( representative ) body of christ , and the whole substance of wine into his ( representative ) blood ; which change they call transubstantiation . but why should i give counsel to men that will not thank me for it , and that obstinately refuse much better ? d. but why speak you nothing of their denying the people the cup ? i thought you would principally have fastned on that . r. because it is no part of this present controversie , which i was first to handle , though it concern the same sacrament : but it is such an instance , as serveth to tell those of the world that will understand , what horrid unreasonable , audacious arrogance and vsurpation and treason against god and the true head of the church , this pretended monarch of the world , and his pretended catholick church ( the popish sect ) are guilty of : considering , 1. that it is as essential a part of the sacracrament as the bread is : for christ hath made no difference . 2. it hath the same institution and express command : he that said , [ take , eat ] said also [ drink ye all of this : ] he hath said , [ do this in remembrance of me ] of one as well as of the other . 3. therefore to take away an essential part , is to take away the sacrament , and make it another thing . as it is not a humane body that hath not both head and heart : so here . 4. therefore by the same authority they might have continued the cup , and taken away the bread ; or have taken away both . 5. and on the same reason they might have taken away baptism , and all christs positive institutions . and for ought i know the ministry it self as instituted . 6. but then gersons question , de auferabilitate papae would be next to be debated : for were he of christs own institution ( as he is not ) it is no more than the cup in the lords supper . could he but prove an institution of his papacy as evidently , who would not be his subject ? if you say , but who should take him down , if it might be done ? i answer , kings in their own kingdoms , and his own general councils . the kings of france , spain , &c. may easily prove , that they have more power to cast out the pope , than he hath to cast out half christs sacrament : and they may better forbid their own subjects to obey a forreign usurper , than he can forbid all the world to obey christ . 7. and for all this , the wit of man can hardly devise what reason they have to do it ? what point of their religion ? what interest of their own did engage them to it ? unless it be their interest to shew that they are above christ and the scripture , i do not yet discern their reason . 8. and yet they have , with resolution and obstinacy , persisted herein divers hundreds of years , and denyed the requests of emperours , nobles , and great part of several kingdoms in this point . this and the leaving out the second commandment , seem to be of purpose to shew that they are above the maker of the ten commandments and of the gospel . how long lord shall tyranny oppress the nations of the earth , and the honour and domination and wills of rebels , prevail to tread down truth and godliness , and keep the notice of thy salvation from the sinful miserable world ; whilest yet we daily pray by thy command , that thy name may be hallowed , thy kingdome come , and thy will be done , on earth as it is done in heaven ? whether the pope be the antichrist meant in the scripture ( by that name ) or not , you see that my passing it by doth shew my cautelousness in resolving ( as zanchy and others before me have done ) , because i am confessedly so far unstudyed or ignorant of the sense of the revelations and some other scripture prophecies , as that i must leave such cases to such as bishop downame and others that have deeper insight into them : every man should be best at that which he hath most studyed . but i must needs say , that though i take it to be indispensible duty , to keep up all due charity to all professed christians ; such instances as these which i have here opened do utterly disable me from confuting that man , who shall assert that this pretended vicar of christ , and king or monarch of the world , ( and so king of kings , and lord of lords ) is an abominable usurper , and insolent traytor , against god , and the true king and head of the universal church . how long will princes and prelates , learned and unlearned be deluded by him , or fear power ? and when shall he be restrained from hindering christs gospel , and the peace and concord of the christian world ? finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a26931-e4170 johns . nov. repr . p. 426. protestants formally such , have not enough to be brought to the unfeigned love of god above all things , and special love to his servants , and unfeigned willingness to obey him : i deny you have any certain knowledge or feeling that you love god or his servants , or willingness to obey , &c. knot against chillingworth ch. 2. p. 122. [ in no one doctrine protestants would seem more unanimously to agree , than in this , that all things necessary to salvation are contained evidently in scripture — which they hold as the only foundation of the whole structure of their faith and religion . ] note this confession . see dr. holden analys . fidei li. 1. c. 3. lett. 1. he that would know what stress we lay on tradition as the medium may see it fully in my reasons of christ . relig. and dr. holden is more for us than for the papists , cap. 3. q. was it from the church that the first church received it ? or was it not the same divine religion which the first church ( whether council or practicers ) received without the tradition of council or practicers ? if so , this cannot be essential to religion . if the apostles words were to be believed , their proved writings are to be believed . and their writings were proved theirs before a general council or universal practice witnessed it : even by each church and person that received any epistle from any one of them . so that if the doctors will but differ in their expositions , the scripture is no more the sure word of god , or to be believed by catholick faith . of the pope without a general council . mark then , that it may be de fide divina , though not of catholick necessity without the proposal of council or universal practice . johns . nov. rep. p. 19. of the explication of terms : know you not , that divines are divided , what are the points necessary to be believed explicitely necessitate medii : some , and those the more antient hold , that the explicite belief of god , of the whole trinity , of christ , his passion , resurrection , &c. are necessary necessitate medii : others among the recentiors , that no more than the belief of the deity , and that he is the rewarder of our works , is absesolutely necessary with that necessary , to be explicitely believed . he doth better interpret the distinction of explicite and implicite on another occasion , in another sense . holden . l. 1. c. 9. p. 169. queret an teneatur quispiam a● internum divinae fidei actum , quem nec semper fortasse in eius potestate situm novimus ? quamdiu sane arbitretur quispiam hujusmodi fidei actum lumini naturali & rationi oppositum & contrarium esse , nequaquam poterit ad illum eliciendum astringi . notes for div a26931-e26910 aquin. p. 3. q. 75. a. 5. ad 3. fides non est contra sensum , sed est d● eo ad quod sensus non attingit . but doth not sense say , here is bread and wine ? vid. aquin. 3. q. 82. a. 7. c. vid. aquin. 3. q. 69. a. 9. vid. aquin. 3. q. 82. a. 8. 2 cor. 12.12 . rom. 15.19 . act. 14.3 . & 15.12 . matth. 21.15 . so they do by forbidding to eat flesh in lent : and yet say they eat christs flesh in lent : when irenaeus cited by occumenius com. in 1 pe● . c. 3. bringeth in blandina proving to the heathens that christians did not eat flesh and drink blood in the eucharist , because that they use even to abstain for exercise sake , from lawful flesh . see my more reasons for the christian religion , and the lord herbert de veritate . apply this to mr. johnsons rejoynder on this point , and you will see his vanity .